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 27 2012-10-19 01:33:16 <JyZyXEL> how do i get the status of PORTB bit PB2?
 28 2012-10-19 01:34:33 <lianj> wrong channel?
 29 2012-10-19 01:34:49 <gmaxwell> doublec: if you get into a hacking on your exchange software mood at some point, it would be nice if I could get a list of all deposits and withdraws with txnids.
 30 2012-10-19 01:35:32 <lianj> JyZyXEL: if (PORTB & (1 << PB2))
 31 2012-10-19 01:36:06 <JyZyXEL> wrong channel but the right answer :D
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 36 2012-10-19 01:45:04 <Adifex> I have a question about buyBTC.php in the html v0 api. Does anyone else use v0?
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 39 2012-10-19 01:51:58 <graingert> Adifex: it's deprecated, don't build new apps for it
 40 2012-10-19 01:51:58 <Diablo-D3> https://venturebeat.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/fake-grimlock-server-on-fire.jpg?w=558&h=9999&crop=0
 41 2012-10-19 01:52:14 <graingert> Diablo-D3: https://venturebeat.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/fake-grimlock-server-on-fire.jpg
 42 2012-10-19 01:52:42 <Diablo-D3> yay even bigger
 43 2012-10-19 01:54:13 <graingert> biggur
 44 2012-10-19 01:58:39 <Adifex> Diablo-D3: k, thanks.
 45 2012-10-19 01:59:56 <Diablo-D3> that was graingert
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 47 2012-10-19 02:00:32 <Adifex> ha whoops. looks like I should kick it for the night.
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117 2012-10-19 04:22:11 <helo> ok, time for a quantal ubuntu ppa ;)
118 2012-10-19 04:22:19 <helo> readysetgo
119 2012-10-19 04:23:56 <helo> BlueMatt: if you need someone to test or anything, let me know
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130 2012-10-19 05:24:26 <bladezor> Hello, when trying to execute bitcoind from the command line in Ubuntu
131 2012-10-19 05:24:32 <bladezor> when I execute bitcoind
132 2012-10-19 05:24:36 <bladezor> It hangs
133 2012-10-19 05:24:45 <bladezor> There's no I/O
134 2012-10-19 05:26:39 <weex> do you mean no output from the command?
135 2012-10-19 05:26:50 <weex> that would be normal
136 2012-10-19 05:26:54 <weex> usually you run bitcoind &
137 2012-10-19 05:26:56 <bladezor> Nm
138 2012-10-19 05:27:05 <bladezor> It seems I wasn't running the daemon
139 2012-10-19 05:27:10 <bladezor> And there's an exception
140 2012-10-19 05:28:28 <lianj> -printconsole
141 2012-10-19 05:28:45 <lianj> eh, -printtoconsole
142 2012-10-19 05:28:45 <bladezor> EXCEPTION: 22DbRunRecoveryException
143 2012-10-19 05:28:46 <bladezor> DbEnv::open: DB_RUNRECOVERY: Fatal error, run database recovery
144 2012-10-19 05:28:46 <bladezor> bitcoin in AppInit()
145 2012-10-19 05:31:18 <bladezor> ah
146 2012-10-19 05:31:22 <bladezor> seems like the dbs were locked
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149 2012-10-19 05:43:03 <freewil> is it possible to link two multisig addresses together if they both share 1 (of 2) common keys
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153 2012-10-19 05:50:18 <BlueMatt> helo: wanna test in about an hour?
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272 2012-10-19 11:13:33 <UukGoblin> so there's 4 new bytes in the coinbase before "\x{fa}\x{be}mm" now? (compared to half a year ago)
273 2012-10-19 11:14:00 aq83 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
274 2012-10-19 11:14:05 <sipa> in version=2 blocks, yes
275 2012-10-19 11:14:08 <sipa> see BIP 34
276 2012-10-19 11:15:02 <UukGoblin> ah right
277 2012-10-19 11:15:09 <UukGoblin> 4 bytes for 300 years
278 2012-10-19 11:15:12 <UukGoblin> that should suffice
279 2012-10-19 11:15:36 <UukGoblin> are all blocks version=2 now?
280 2012-10-19 11:15:51 <sipa> i don't think so
281 2012-10-19 11:15:55 <UukGoblin> meh, I guess ones mined by p2pool will be
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284 2012-10-19 11:25:59 <doublec> UukGoblin: this lists version 1/2 block split by some of the pools http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/top.php
285 2012-10-19 11:27:43 <UukGoblin> doublec, that's virtually none! but p2pool is in good shape, as is eligius
286 2012-10-19 11:29:09 <doublec> yes, elipse as well
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288 2012-10-19 11:33:41 <sipa> BIP34 will only be enforced when nVersion=2 occurs in 75% of the last 1000 blocks
289 2012-10-19 11:33:45 <sipa> will probably still take a while
290 2012-10-19 11:34:43 <UukGoblin> nodnod
291 2012-10-19 11:34:53 PhantomSpark has joined
292 2012-10-19 11:35:05 <UukGoblin> just need to update chronobit ;-)
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294 2012-10-19 11:51:17 <bladezor> if I use testnet does it download the blockchain to seperate .dat files or does it overwrite the ones for main?
295 2012-10-19 11:51:26 <bladezor> with bitcoind
296 2012-10-19 11:55:59 <sipa> yes, the datafiles are in a subdirectory (~/.bitcoin/testnet3)
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298 2012-10-19 12:00:03 <bladezor> okay awesome, thanks
299 2012-10-19 12:02:08 <UukGoblin> oh, p2pool also puts a comma between the block height and the MM coinbase
300 2012-10-19 12:02:39 <UukGoblin> did namecoin not need any updates after BIP 0034?
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311 2012-10-19 12:30:10 <JyZyXEL> the generation inputs scriptsig is the so called coinbase?
312 2012-10-19 12:30:19 <sipa> yes
313 2012-10-19 12:30:40 <JyZyXEL> blockexplorer.com doesn't seem to have a decoder for it
314 2012-10-19 12:30:59 <JyZyXEL> it just shows it as a long hex value
315 2012-10-19 12:33:27 <sipa> there's also not really anything to decode
316 2012-10-19 12:33:36 <sipa> except the height-in-coinbase as of BIP34
317 2012-10-19 12:33:43 <sipa> the rest is freeform binary data
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319 2012-10-19 12:47:31 <_dr> have there been any reviews on adi shamirs paper yet?
320 2012-10-19 12:48:42 <_dr> weren't it for his name, i'd think he doesn't have the slightest clue about the way bitcoin works
321 2012-10-19 12:49:01 <sipa> yes, there is a thread about it on the forum
322 2012-10-19 12:49:20 <sipa> some people mailed the authors, and even got feedback from them
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324 2012-10-19 12:50:47 <_dr> clearly iacr has a very poor reviewing process
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327 2012-10-19 13:08:45 <gmaxwell> _dr: My heart sings at how consistently and throughly negative everyone remotely clueful's review has been.
328 2012-10-19 13:09:31 <gmaxwell> (there is so much dispute in the bitcoin community it's refreshing to see ~everyone agree on /something/)
329 2012-10-19 13:10:12 <sipa> haha
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331 2012-10-19 13:17:42 <Joric> 78 percent of Bitcoin currency stashed under digital mattress!
332 2012-10-19 13:17:47 <Joric> *facepalm*
333 2012-10-19 13:18:37 <gmaxwell> Joric: god knows, it may be true; but the paper doesn't really show that. Oh well, we shouldn't complain; that claim is less bad for us that "1001% bitcoins used for drugs!"
334 2012-10-19 13:20:51 <Joric> oddly theres no silk road analysis at all =)
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337 2012-10-19 13:22:52 <Joric> though they somehow figured out mtgox, instawallet and deepbit addresses
338 2012-10-19 13:23:00 <Joric> http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584.pdf
339 2012-10-19 13:24:59 <gmaxwell> Joric: I know  mtgox, instawallet and deepbit addresses too.
340 2012-10-19 13:25:34 <gmaxwell> Joric: did you see the instawallet response?
341 2012-10-19 13:26:11 <Joric> nope what they say
342 2012-10-19 13:27:18 <gmaxwell> "Hahaha"
343 2012-10-19 13:28:10 <gmaxwell> Joric: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118797.msg1280496#msg1280496
344 2012-10-19 13:29:35 <Joric> myinstawallet
345 2012-10-19 13:31:20 gavin_NYC has joined
346 2012-10-19 13:32:30 <gavin_NYC> Good morning y'all... I've got about half an hour free, I'm going to try to do all the announce-0.7.1 stuff...
347 2012-10-19 13:34:17 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
348 2012-10-19 13:34:43 <Joric> 'The figures about Instawallet do not seem correct, on May 13th there were 103,513 wallets having at least one incoming transaction, the paper mentions 23,649 different addresses' this paper is total crap
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386 2012-10-19 14:44:00 <sipa> i wonder how much all these people who want to use the raw tx api just for finding the "sender address" of transactions will like ultraprune
387 2012-10-19 14:46:20 <gmaxwell> "Good"
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391 2012-10-19 14:51:11 <sipa> i hope will start create dummy outputs just to keep the data in the utxo set...
392 2012-10-19 14:51:19 <sipa> *not
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394 2012-10-19 14:53:45 <gmaxwell> We need to think more about minor fee calculation improvements to incentivize reducing the utxo set and coin selection improvements to benefit from them.
395 2012-10-19 14:55:01 <sipa> a CalcUTXOSetSizeEffect(CTransaction) wouldn't be hard
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398 2012-10-19 14:59:48 <gmaxwell> only very weakly related—, I was contemplating how awful to implement (storage) and how useful higher order coin-days-destroyed would be; E.g. an input's priority wouldn't just be its age but age+x*(priority_of_parent*value/parent_output_value) for some small but non-zero x.
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403 2012-10-19 15:24:46 <sipa> the problem with rules based on the utxo state, is that in order for clients to predict it, they need the utxo set
404 2012-10-19 15:24:54 <sipa> which you don't want to force
405 2012-10-19 15:25:30 <sipa> you can approximate things of course, certainly where wallets have the prevout tx they arr spending from
406 2012-10-19 15:25:37 <epscy> what is uxto?
407 2012-10-19 15:26:02 <sipa> but the most interesting stuff, like the last txout of a tx being spent, can't necessarily be observed
408 2012-10-19 15:26:19 <sipa> epscy: unspent transaction output (set)
409 2012-10-19 15:26:58 <epscy> ahh, the spendable balance basically
410 2012-10-19 15:27:24 <sipa> and i think we'd really like to enciurage spending the last output of a tx
411 2012-10-19 15:27:47 <sipa> epscy: except it's not a balance at all, but yes
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414 2012-10-19 15:30:38 <gmaxwell> sipa: for the way ultraprune is structured does it really matter if it spends the last output or a non-last output?
415 2012-10-19 15:30:57 maaku has joined
416 2012-10-19 15:31:47 <sipa> it's interbally a txid->list_of_outputs map
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419 2012-10-19 15:35:13 <jgarzik> ;;seen gavinandresen
420 2012-10-19 15:35:13 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 22 hours, 48 minutes, and 52 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> I wonder how much it costs a bank to process a cash-at-the-ATM deposit....
421 2012-10-19 15:35:19 <jgarzik> hrm
422 2012-10-19 15:35:26 <jgarzik> need to get that release out
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425 2012-10-19 15:39:08 <gmaxwell> 06:20 < gavin_NYC> Good morning y'all... I've got about half an hour free, I'm going to try to do all the announce-0.7.1 stuff...
426 2012-10-19 15:39:22 <sipa> gmaxwell: so spending the last txout of a txid usually results in a far larger reduxtion in utxo size than any other
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428 2012-10-19 15:39:52 <sipa> especially as just the txid (the key) is far larger than the value data left at that point
429 2012-10-19 15:40:04 <jgarzik> ah, good
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431 2012-10-19 15:41:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: oh right duh. for some blonde-moment reason I was thinking they were indexed by scriptpubkey instead of by txid:vout
432 2012-10-19 15:43:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: one way to make that score memoryless is to have a different cost for different vout indexes. E.g. spending index zero is much more likely to be spending the last index than index ten.
433 2012-10-19 15:45:38 <freewil> is it possible to link two multisig addresses together if they both share 1 (of 2) common keys
434 2012-10-19 15:46:06 t7_ has joined
435 2012-10-19 15:46:08 <gmaxwell> freewil: Can you expand that question some? what does link mean?
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438 2012-10-19 15:47:14 <freewil> i mean if you wanted to generate a bunch of multisig addresses using one common key, would someone who analyzes the blockchain be able to see that those multisig addresses with the common key have a common owner?
439 2012-10-19 15:47:51 nym has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
440 2012-10-19 15:48:15 <freewil> ... just based on the addresses
441 2012-10-19 15:48:16 <sipa> freewil: in case of p2sh, after being spent only
442 2012-10-19 15:48:17 <gmaxwell> Not until they're spent.
443 2012-10-19 15:48:25 <gmaxwell> Right what sipa said.
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449 2012-10-19 15:49:15 <freewil> because the spending transaction would have inputs from two addresses?
450 2012-10-19 15:49:21 <freewil> or can you tell some other way?
451 2012-10-19 15:49:23 KOLANICH has joined
452 2012-10-19 15:49:28 <KOLANICH> hi all
453 2012-10-19 15:49:37 nym has joined
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455 2012-10-19 15:49:52 <freewil> ...i mean inputs from two different multisig addresses
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457 2012-10-19 15:51:11 <gmaxwell> freewil: because when its spent the script is disclosed and you can see the public keys.
458 2012-10-19 15:51:58 <freewil> ok - so if you have a multisig address c using two keys a and b, you'd be able to tell what a and b are once an output is spent that was sent to c?
459 2012-10-19 15:52:34 <gmaxwell> Yes.
460 2012-10-19 15:52:56 <gmaxwell> (of course, knowing a or b doesn't define 'ownership')
461 2012-10-19 15:53:09 <freewil> right
462 2012-10-19 15:53:13 <freewil> ok thanks!
463 2012-10-19 15:55:02 * jgarzik wonders if the average age on the forums is <21, or even <18
464 2012-10-19 15:55:17 <jgarzik> a lot of posters just seem to have no clue at all about the legal system
465 2012-10-19 15:55:38 <gmaxwell> some people I would have pegged for 14 have turned out to be 41… so I dunno.
466 2012-10-19 15:55:40 <edcba> 'the' ?
467 2012-10-19 15:57:00 <gmaxwell> edcba: it's a fair statement, law differs across the world, but people in our community have reasoning so detached from reality they dont even manage to catch the features which are universal.
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474 2012-10-19 16:25:41 <jgarzik> bitcoin.org still wants updating for 0.7.1 release
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481 2012-10-19 16:36:28 <sipa> is 0.7.1 released?
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498 2012-10-19 17:12:26 <drizztbsd> lol last version of bitcoin for ubuntu => 0.3.24~dfsg-1
499 2012-10-19 17:12:55 Joric has quit ()
500 2012-10-19 17:14:44 <helo> for quantal?
501 2012-10-19 17:15:36 <drizztbsd> 12.04
502 2012-10-19 17:15:45 <drizztbsd> quantal is not lts (useless on servers)
503 2012-10-19 17:15:53 <drizztbsd> quantal has 0.6.2.2
504 2012-10-19 17:16:04 <drizztbsd> silly since 0.7.0 is out since month
505 2012-10-19 17:17:29 <FabianB> does wallet.dat just contain private keys or also adress book and done transactions?
506 2012-10-19 17:18:01 <Luke-Jr> drizztbsd: and 0.6.3 longer
507 2012-10-19 17:18:30 <gmaxwell> FabianB: yep.
508 2012-10-19 17:18:59 <andyrossy> i want to download all the bitcoins
509 2012-10-19 17:19:05 <andyrossy> how much hash do i need?
510 2012-10-19 17:19:08 <drizztbsd> does 0.7.1 contains some security patch?
511 2012-10-19 17:20:18 <FabianB> gmaxwell: both or just the private keys?
512 2012-10-19 17:21:39 <gmaxwell> FabianB: all of the above.
513 2012-10-19 17:22:03 <FabianB> gmaxwell: ok, thx
514 2012-10-19 17:30:59 <jgarzik> drizztbsd: it contains what the changelog says it contains ;p
515 2012-10-19 17:31:23 <jgarzik> anyway
516 2012-10-19 17:31:34 <jgarzik> next step: chase down Gavin for final ACK on ultraprune merge
517 2012-10-19 17:31:41 <jgarzik> then chase down sipa to merge it
518 2012-10-19 17:31:59 <jgarzik> I think there were some minor OSX build issues, that sounded easy to fix?
519 2012-10-19 17:32:38 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik++
520 2012-10-19 17:32:46 <Luke-Jr> drizztbsd: not afaik
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523 2012-10-19 17:38:15 <helo> so 0.8 will include ultraprune/leveldb... will it actually prune anything?
524 2012-10-19 17:38:54 <gmaxwell> helo: depends on what you mean by prune.
525 2012-10-19 17:39:40 <gmaxwell> Ultraprune is based on a maximally pruned txout index. The nodes still have all the data and are indistinguishable over the p2p from older nodes.
526 2012-10-19 17:42:27 <helo> spent txouts aren't needed, even for ibd?
527 2012-10-19 17:43:05 <gmaxwell> helo: We still have the spent txouts in ultraprune.
528 2012-10-19 17:43:10 <gmaxwell> They're just not indexed.
529 2012-10-19 17:43:18 <gmaxwell> But they're still part of the blocks.
530 2012-10-19 17:43:29 <helo> ahh, ok
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532 2012-10-19 17:47:11 <Eliel_> will 0.8 have the option to delete the blockchain data on function with just the ultraprune database?
533 2012-10-19 17:47:36 Eliel_ is now known as Eliel
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536 2012-10-19 17:52:01 <gmaxwell> Eliel: no. And it's not that simple.
537 2012-10-19 17:52:18 <gmaxwell> The ultraprune database alone couldn't possibly reorg.
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539 2012-10-19 17:57:05 <Eliel> yes, so you'd need to keep a buffer of a number of the most recent blocks in addition. That won't be supported?
540 2012-10-19 17:59:21 <BlueMatt> ;;seen TD
541 2012-10-19 17:59:21 <gribble> TD was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 days, 20 hours, 43 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <TD> (or at least close to real time)
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544 2012-10-19 18:07:52 <UukGoblin> "Replace hard-coded maximum block size (1,000,000 bytes) and maximum number of signature operations per block (20,000) with ???." <- is there a discussion somewhere on "???"?
545 2012-10-19 18:08:55 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: that page is dreaming, not a plan.
546 2012-10-19 18:09:35 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: there are a bunch of silly threads on that subject in varrious places.
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548 2012-10-19 18:10:51 <UukGoblin> well, I think it's an interesting problem and would basically like to know more about the available ideas... but not silly ones
549 2012-10-19 18:12:31 <UukGoblin> I can even see a solution where it could stay at 1MB/20k forever...
550 2012-10-19 18:12:45 <UukGoblin> but it'd harm decentralization and small end-users
551 2012-10-19 18:13:43 <gmaxwell> what? harm decentralization?? er. The biggest reason to not up the cap is to prevent decenteralization from being totally lost.
552 2012-10-19 18:14:14 <gmaxwell> If you allow really large blocks than the potential cost of validation can become quite large... so there would be more incentive to 'let someone else do the validation'.
553 2012-10-19 18:15:03 <edcba> ??? should not be a hard limit
554 2012-10-19 18:15:05 <UukGoblin> ah, well, I was thinking to basically leave transaction processing to large wallet companies
555 2012-10-19 18:15:09 <edcba> it should be computed limit
556 2012-10-19 18:15:35 <edcba> we shouldn't have to change a hard limit every x release
557 2012-10-19 18:15:40 <UukGoblin> all small and high-volume transactions are processed internally within wallet providers (and between wallet providers using contracts), and then wallet providers only make large adjustment transactions rarely
558 2012-10-19 18:15:59 <edcba> block size is more a bandwidth problem
559 2012-10-19 18:16:06 <UukGoblin> bandwidth + storage
560 2012-10-19 18:16:27 <edcba> ok maybe we should have some flags on blocks
561 2012-10-19 18:16:42 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, if you leave the cap at where it is, and let transaction rates grow, you'll effectively boost up the transaction fees
562 2012-10-19 18:16:52 <edcba> so that each client could tell if he wants to raise some value or to decrease it
563 2012-10-19 18:16:54 <UukGoblin> making it hard for small users to transfer bitcoins
564 2012-10-19 18:16:55 <gmaxwell> edcba: that @#$#@
565 2012-10-19 18:17:11 <gmaxwell> edcba: so should we also not have a total limit on the number of coins.
566 2012-10-19 18:17:14 <UukGoblin> edcba, I saw a discussion on that earlier
567 2012-10-19 18:17:30 <edcba> gmaxwell: interesting question :)
568 2012-10-19 18:17:36 <gmaxwell> edcba: You fail. Allowing miners to adjust the size is an interesting suicide pact.
569 2012-10-19 18:17:43 <edcba> but i was only thinking about technicals limit :)
570 2012-10-19 18:18:18 <UukGoblin> so in order to let lots of small cheap transfers, you do them elsewhere and aggregate them
571 2012-10-19 18:18:18 <edcba> i forgot that blocks were tied to fees too
572 2012-10-19 18:18:22 <edcba> fucking miners :)
573 2012-10-19 18:18:42 <gmaxwell> edcba: no no, you can't hide behind that. The security of the system depends on scarcity of block space, and wide distribution of validation.  The economic consequences are technical consequences too. :P
574 2012-10-19 18:19:07 <edcba> yes ok i retract my suggestion !
575 2012-10-19 18:19:24 <edcba> fcking bitcoin client we can't modify at all :)
576 2012-10-19 18:19:25 <gmaxwell> Well it's complicated. I agree.
577 2012-10-19 18:20:10 <edcba> hmm
578 2012-10-19 18:20:21 <edcba> maybe we should implement some meta feedback loop then
579 2012-10-19 18:20:57 <edcba> the problem is now to define it :p
580 2012-10-19 18:21:43 <edcba> something preventing us to fall in commons tragedy or whatever it is called
581 2012-10-19 18:22:41 <edcba> i don't see easy solution :(
582 2012-10-19 18:23:05 <gmaxwell> Not that big of a deal.
583 2012-10-19 18:23:53 <gmaxwell> It's not like bitcoin could ever reasonably handle the worldwide cash transaction volume— you'll always have to have secondary systems that have enough information hiding to be scalable.
584 2012-10-19 18:23:59 <UukGoblin> like, a subbitcoin network, of some sort. Maybe based on OpenTransactions.
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586 2012-10-19 18:24:06 <sipa> jgarzik: why would you need me to merge it? :)
587 2012-10-19 18:24:54 <edcba> ok i know what is the problem of bitcoin ! it's sipa and likes :)
588 2012-10-19 18:25:00 <jgarzik> sipa: <shrug>  Seems like the usual procedure for "big ticket items" is to gather ACKs, then merge it yourself
589 2012-10-19 18:25:03 <UukGoblin> and then... have the actual bitcoin nodes validate the OT status...
590 2012-10-19 18:25:06 <jgarzik> but yes, it doesn't really matter who merges it
591 2012-10-19 18:25:09 <sipa> jgarzik: ah, sure :)
592 2012-10-19 18:25:14 <edcba> the mining clans should be built in bitcoin
593 2012-10-19 18:25:29 <sipa> edcba: i'm a problem for bitcoin? geez, thanks...
594 2012-10-19 18:25:29 <edcba> ie more frequent rewards
595 2012-10-19 18:25:57 <edcba> ok more diplomatically you are the solution we need to internalize in bitcoin :p
596 2012-10-19 18:26:27 <edcba> aka we need to make you redundant so we can fire you :)
597 2012-10-19 18:27:24 <Eliel> I think Proof of Stake type of voting might work for deciding the maximum block size.
598 2012-10-19 18:27:56 <edcba> hmm
599 2012-10-19 18:27:59 <Eliel> although, perhaps not a direct vote
600 2012-10-19 18:28:01 * edcba seeks that...
601 2012-10-19 18:28:05 <UukGoblin> Eliel, how often do you hold the elections then?
602 2012-10-19 18:28:49 <Eliel> UukGoblin: people with lots of bitcoins have an incentive to keep people using Bitcoin and to keep the security up.
603 2012-10-19 18:29:13 <UukGoblin> Eliel, and really, again... blocksize should stay small for /small/ users, and by holding proof-of-stake elections, you're immediately favouring BIG users
604 2012-10-19 18:29:50 <Eliel> UukGoblin: define your BIG and small use.
605 2012-10-19 18:29:57 harakiri_ is now known as harakiri
606 2012-10-19 18:30:09 <UukGoblin> small = can't prove stake
607 2012-10-19 18:30:18 <edcba> BIG : |------------------| small : |-----|
608 2012-10-19 18:30:18 <UukGoblin> for the purpose of this subject. ;-]
609 2012-10-19 18:30:21 <edcba> not to scale of course
610 2012-10-19 18:30:47 <UukGoblin> edcba, thank you, greatly, for your insightful input.
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612 2012-10-19 18:30:53 <Eliel> UukGoblin: that's the whole point. To be able to make a big effect, you need to have big risks on the results too.
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614 2012-10-19 18:31:47 <Wollo> hello
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616 2012-10-19 18:32:20 <UukGoblin> oh, and also: current fee structure is kinda weird.
617 2012-10-19 18:32:29 <edcba> yes fees shouldn't event exist imo
618 2012-10-19 18:32:41 <edcba> even
619 2012-10-19 18:32:50 <UukGoblin> it encourages people to make lots of small transactions rather than few big ones
620 2012-10-19 18:33:02 <edcba> hmm
621 2012-10-19 18:33:05 <UukGoblin> effectively resulting in more "spam", i.e. useless data being transferred and stored
622 2012-10-19 18:33:18 <edcba> not sure about that
623 2012-10-19 18:33:27 <edcba> tragedy of commons too
624 2012-10-19 18:33:34 <Eliel> UukGoblin: it might do that in some situations, sure.
625 2012-10-19 18:34:12 <Eliel> UukGoblin: but even more than that, it encourages people to receive coins at reasonable sizes compared to their needs.
626 2012-10-19 18:34:31 <Wollo> I'm curious about a thing. Is it possible to "track" a bitcoin to retrive a list of the addresses of all of his previous owners?
627 2012-10-19 18:34:38 jdnavarro has joined
628 2012-10-19 18:34:39 <edcba> yeah fees should be externalized to bitcoin
629 2012-10-19 18:34:50 <edcba> ie negotiating them between peers
630 2012-10-19 18:34:52 <UukGoblin> Wollo, yes, definitely possible
631 2012-10-19 18:35:17 <edcba> in same way than block exchange protocol
632 2012-10-19 18:35:18 <Wollo> thank you UukGoblin
633 2012-10-19 18:35:20 <Eliel> Wollo: yes, but it's somewhat of a fuzzy tracking.
634 2012-10-19 18:35:50 <Wollo> thank you too Eliel
635 2012-10-19 18:36:18 <edcba> "process my tx and i'll give you block notifications"
636 2012-10-19 18:36:32 <edcba> or peer with me and i'll give you some btc
637 2012-10-19 18:36:33 Wollo has quit (Quit: Page closed)
638 2012-10-19 18:36:34 <UukGoblin> while "owners" imo can get fuzzy, you can definitely track all the addresses a bitcoin has been to since being mined
639 2012-10-19 18:36:48 <edcba> ie maybe we should just rewards peers
640 2012-10-19 18:37:00 <edcba> good acting peers of course
641 2012-10-19 18:37:06 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: what ever came of the lets-overhaul-fees discussion late summer?
642 2012-10-19 18:37:07 <Eliel> when there's a transaction with more than one input, it doesn't even make sense to try to pin the bitcoin to one of those inputs.
643 2012-10-19 18:37:48 <UukGoblin> Eliel, no, you pin it to all of them... ok, sort of fuzzy, then ;-]
644 2012-10-19 18:37:51 <edcba> so i imagine a bitcoin client having a lot more peers than now...
645 2012-10-19 18:38:12 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: for one, we sort blocks by fee-per-kb
646 2012-10-19 18:39:16 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: did we (finally) change the actual priority algo?
647 2012-10-19 18:39:33 asuk has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
648 2012-10-19 18:39:43 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: also, you gonna be at pycarolinas?
649 2012-10-19 18:41:35 Joric has joined
650 2012-10-19 18:41:49 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: see c555400ca134991e39d5e3a565fcd2215abe56f6 -blockminsize -blockmaxsize -blockprioritysize
651 2012-10-19 18:42:14 <gmaxwell> We didn't change the priority algo, just the fee handling and block sizing.
652 2012-10-19 18:42:16 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: gavin had a gist somewhere describing these changes, but I do not seem to have that link (sipa? gmaxwell?)
653 2012-10-19 18:42:34 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yea, but the gist went way further than just that commit
654 2012-10-19 18:42:52 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I was wondering how much more was done than just sort by fee-per-kb
655 2012-10-19 18:43:01 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: well, the size of the priority area is now easily malleable
656 2012-10-19 18:43:29 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: much more has been proposed... but the above is all that's been pushed upstream
657 2012-10-19 18:43:40 <jgarzik> e.g. looking at block history for fee calculation help
658 2012-10-19 18:43:42 <BlueMatt> mmm, shame
659 2012-10-19 18:44:10 root2 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
660 2012-10-19 18:45:07 <UukGoblin> ah, cool stuff
661 2012-10-19 18:46:57 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: don't recall anything about pycarolinas
662 2012-10-19 18:47:15 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: guess not then...its tomorrow
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686 2012-10-19 20:01:59 <edcba> i guess everyone saw that link : http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584 ?
687 2012-10-19 20:03:16 prahanormal has quit ()
688 2012-10-19 20:03:54 <jgarzik> edcba: Yes.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118797.0
689 2012-10-19 20:04:10 <jgarzik> edcba: that thread outlines some of the paper's flaws
690 2012-10-19 20:09:57 KOLANICH has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 16.0.1/20121010144125])
691 2012-10-19 20:18:20 <helo> i find myself kind of enjoying all of these new "revelations" about bitcoin, and the inevitable proclamations of doom
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693 2012-10-19 20:21:15 <edcba> i still wonder about the inflation/deflation stuff
694 2012-10-19 20:21:17 <helo> bitcoin is so radical that most criticism is just accepted at face value... so many people are just waiting to hear why bitcoin won't work, despite the fact that it is already working
695 2012-10-19 20:22:28 <helo> edcba: yeah me too... an economy based around a deflationary currency is probably very unlike our present economy
696 2012-10-19 20:23:17 <helo> the fun/scary part is that without draconian government crackdown, bitcoin is likely to force itself to prominence and we'll find out of the deflationary caution is valid
697 2012-10-19 20:24:21 <helo> out *if the
698 2012-10-19 20:26:07 <helo> the transition from "~stable inflationary currency economy" to "~stable deflationary currency economy" is going to be so bumpy that it will seem that the warnings about deflation were true
699 2012-10-19 20:29:10 <root2> I thought the problem with deflation was mostly divisibility, and loans(borrowing money and having to pay it back when it is worth more)
700 2012-10-19 20:32:08 <helo> most economics refer to deflationary spiral as the big problem, afaik
701 2012-10-19 20:32:32 <helo> i kind of like the idea of people not being under pressure to blow all of their cash on something, anything before it loses its value
702 2012-10-19 20:38:26 <gmaxwell> helo: hey, if you're in debt denominated in dollars than inflation is your friend!
703 2012-10-19 20:39:06 <D34TH> bitcoin is using so much memory
704 2012-10-19 20:39:28 <D34TH> 500MB
705 2012-10-19 20:39:31 <D34TH> D:
706 2012-10-19 20:39:51 <gmaxwell> D34TH: are you looking at virtual or actual in use?
707 2012-10-19 20:40:07 <D34TH> MEM% in htop, so actual
708 2012-10-19 20:40:12 <D34TH> VIRT is 1090M
709 2012-10-19 20:40:29 <gmaxwell> here I'm seeing 167m ... :P But this is not on a public listener.
710 2012-10-19 20:40:54 <D34TH> "connections" : 74,
711 2012-10-19 20:41:15 <gmaxwell> yea, that would be it.
712 2012-10-19 20:41:31 <D34TH> D:
713 2012-10-19 20:45:56 <sipa>  which version?
714 2012-10-19 20:46:04 <D34TH> "version" : 70100,
715 2012-10-19 20:46:09 <sipa> ok
716 2012-10-19 20:46:13 <D34TH> i.e. HEAD
717 2012-10-19 20:46:36 <D34TH> im generally always running the latest commit
718 2012-10-19 20:47:05 <kjj_> odd.  my node is hanging when I try use the move RPC command on 0.7.1rc1
719 2012-10-19 20:47:37 <jgarzik> The economics bits of bitcoin are rather far less interesting than the technical bits.  But anyway...  RE deflation:  the huge caveat critics often miss is that most models and studies of deflation (or gold-backed currencies) involve nation-state currencies where everybody is locked in.
720 2012-10-19 20:48:00 <jgarzik> The motivations and uses and economics change radically, when one may slip in and out of a private currency with ease.
721 2012-10-19 20:49:24 <kjj_> hmm.  just before that, listaccounts logged hundreds of "Unknown transaction type found"
722 2012-10-19 20:50:03 <sipa> yes, i think anyone who considers bitcoin's succes outcome to be replacing a nation's money...
723 2012-10-19 20:50:30 <sipa> lkjjthat sounds bad...
724 2012-10-19 20:50:43 <sipa> kjj_: that sounds bad
725 2012-10-19 20:51:15 <helo> gmaxwell: a new deflationary currency is doubly so :)
726 2012-10-19 20:51:23 <kjj_> sipa: it seems bad
727 2012-10-19 20:51:50 <jgarzik> it is bad
728 2012-10-19 20:53:04 <sipa> kjj_: is your wallet sane?
729 2012-10-19 20:53:25 <kjj_> heh, it was
730 2012-10-19 20:53:27 asuk has joined
731 2012-10-19 20:53:38 <sipa> bleh
732 2012-10-19 20:53:56 <kjj_> at this point, I have no idea
733 2012-10-19 20:58:38 ThomasV_ has joined
734 2012-10-19 20:59:56 <kjj_> pywallet dump is huge, no errors so far, at least not that I can tell
735 2012-10-19 21:08:09 RainbowDashh has joined
736 2012-10-19 21:08:45 <D34TH> hmm, reimporting my blockchain from bootstrap.dat lets see what happens
737 2012-10-19 21:09:44 prahanormal has joined
738 2012-10-19 21:11:31 <kjj_> hmm.  I had generated a raw transaction, collecting a bunch of small outputs
739 2012-10-19 21:11:32 <gmaxwell> D34TH: watcha doing that for?
740 2012-10-19 21:11:44 <D34TH> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=22785.msg1283806#msg1283806
741 2012-10-19 21:11:53 <kjj_> I've done a bunch of those, but this one was twice the usual size, around 7k bytes
742 2012-10-19 21:12:17 <kjj_> I see it in listtransactions
743 2012-10-19 21:13:09 <kjj_> I see it in getrawmempool
744 2012-10-19 21:13:13 <D34TH> whats the average time for importing bootstrap.dat
745 2012-10-19 21:15:04 <sipa> D34TH: depends a lot on your system, in particulat I/O
746 2012-10-19 21:15:21 <D34TH> heh, load breaking 3.0
747 2012-10-19 21:16:17 <sipa> tmpfs > SSD > HDD > truecrypt HDD > USB
748 2012-10-19 21:16:40 <D34TH> its going to my raid
749 2012-10-19 21:16:42 <D34TH> D:
750 2012-10-19 21:17:02 <sipa> raid doesn't really help with write latency, which is the worst problem on BDB
751 2012-10-19 21:19:51 <midnightmagic> repends on the raid type and whether you have hardware raid assistance.
752 2012-10-19 21:20:16 <midnightmagic> also, tests here for larger datasets strongly suggest SSD are outperformed by HDD in the long run.
753 2012-10-19 21:20:48 Diablo-D3 has joined
754 2012-10-19 21:20:49 <sipa> depends what kind of load
755 2012-10-19 21:21:45 <midnightmagic> to end-run around ssd performance constraints, the only solution is to buy an ssd which has wayyyyyy more in its ring buffers than it advertises it does to the host, and then do lots of garbage collection in the background. however, if you keep writing to it, eventually you will catch up with the garbage collector and write performance will suffer. there is basically no way to avoid it.
756 2012-10-19 21:22:03 <midnightmagic> sipa: This is with bdb-derived database backend.
757 2012-10-19 21:22:28 <sipa> ok
758 2012-10-19 21:22:40 <Gladamas> anyone here know a lot about advanced linux openvpn connection issues?
759 2012-10-19 21:23:13 <jurov> Gladamas, i know about some related to shitty dsl routers or mikrotik
760 2012-10-19 21:23:29 <jurov> dunnof if that's sufficiently advanced
761 2012-10-19 21:24:10 <Gladamas> ah. idk, I'm just relaying someone else's request
762 2012-10-19 21:24:33 <midnightmagic> Gladamas: Why aren't they asking for themselves?
763 2012-10-19 21:24:53 <Gladamas> i referred them here, i just was curious if anyone here knew anything first
764 2012-10-19 21:25:11 enmaku2 is now known as enmaku
765 2012-10-19 21:25:11 <midnightmagic> I use openvpn extensively, but that doesn't mean I know what you're talking about. :(
766 2012-10-19 21:25:44 <helo> Gladamas: i recommend #openvpn
767 2012-10-19 21:26:03 <helo> seems relatively active
768 2012-10-19 21:26:08 <Gladamas> thanks
769 2012-10-19 21:31:53 <D34TH> all imported
770 2012-10-19 21:33:02 <D34TH> uh oh
771 2012-10-19 21:33:07 <D34TH> something bad happened
772 2012-10-19 21:33:13 <D34TH> boost::filesystem::remove: Read-only file system:
773 2012-10-19 21:33:31 <D34TH> crap
774 2012-10-19 21:33:35 <sipa> ha, it tries to remove bootstrap.dat after loading
775 2012-10-19 21:33:44 <sipa> it shouldn't break though
776 2012-10-19 21:33:47 <D34TH> well now i cant even reboot my box
777 2012-10-19 21:33:52 <sipa> but it should be imported...
778 2012-10-19 21:33:55 <sipa> ?
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780 2012-10-19 21:33:55 <D34TH> bash: /sbin/reboot: Input/output error
781 2012-10-19 21:34:17 <sipa> waah
782 2012-10-19 21:34:27 <sipa> i think your disk or fs died
783 2012-10-19 21:34:34 <D34TH> disk is alive
784 2012-10-19 21:34:35 <sipa> (well, its driver)
785 2012-10-19 21:34:40 <D34TH> ahh
786 2012-10-19 21:34:49 <sipa> check dmesh
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788 2012-10-19 21:35:32 <D34TH> nothing close to current time
789 2012-10-19 21:36:04 <sipa> that's very strange
790 2012-10-19 21:36:33 <D34TH> ahh
791 2012-10-19 21:36:37 sjuxax has joined
792 2012-10-19 21:36:37 <D34TH> kern.log
793 2012-10-19 21:36:46 sjuxax has left ()
794 2012-10-19 21:36:52 <D34TH> failed command: WRITE FPDMA QUEUED
795 2012-10-19 21:37:01 <D34TH> (ATA bus error)
796 2012-10-19 21:40:37 <kjj_> sipa: after a restart, node seems to be running fine.  nothing complaining about the wallet so far, but I haven't tried doing the move again
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812 2012-10-19 22:28:08 <midnightmagic> Gladamas: Was the guy you were asking on behalf of named JimBags ?
813 2012-10-19 22:28:33 <Gladamas> no
814 2012-10-19 22:28:43 <Gladamas> sjuxax
815 2012-10-19 22:28:56 <midnightmagic> Gladamas: I was going to mock you for your bad choice in friends.
816 2012-10-19 22:30:03 <Gladamas> :P lol.
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831 2012-10-19 23:15:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I feel kinda bad for making CP's product sound bad esp since the BFL's figures may all be lies, but you may enjoy the bomb I tossed into that silly argument: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79637.msg1284513#msg1284513
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839 2012-10-19 23:41:51 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: You missed one more ephemeral property in your breakeven calculations.
840 2012-10-19 23:41:57 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: The currency is deflationary. :)
841 2012-10-19 23:42:20 <midnightmagic> "The nature of whatever bitcoins are" is deflationary.
842 2012-10-19 23:43:20 <gmaxwell> Well, I was trying to take the bitcoins out of it as much as possible.
843 2012-10-19 23:44:35 <gmaxwell> Both produce bitcoins, so at least in the one vs another analysis you can factor them out (ignoring ship times). Realistically both will become worthless when someday someone produces a new one on 14nm 3d-transistor graphite gate or whatever is the next great hotness.
844 2012-10-19 23:45:36 <midnightmagic> also, where did this number come from: $13.62 for your bfl operating costs figure?
845 2012-10-19 23:46:23 <gmaxwell> it's the forgone income from not investing $1300 at 8% and paying for 60w of power at $0.12/kwh
846 2012-10-19 23:47:42 <gmaxwell> (for one month). E.g. at the beginning of the month you have $1300 you can either have a BFL or stock market average returns.  So choosing the BFL costs you about $8.36 plus the power.
847 2012-10-19 23:48:09 <midnightmagic> ah, "plus the power". ok.
848 2012-10-19 23:48:26 <midnightmagic> duh
849 2012-10-19 23:48:37 <gmaxwell> I'll replace the $13.62 with the sum
850 2012-10-19 23:52:06 <midnightmagic> the foregone investment "loss" is less for the btcfpga for similar hashrate, so it makes sense to add in the cost of the potential "other" profits in there, just as an explanation of what people could be doing with their money, rather than just using the ratio of the costs..
851 2012-10-19 23:52:26 <midnightmagic> yeah, makes sense now..
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856 2012-10-19 23:55:59 <gmaxwell> Perhaps I should have also included the full analysis with mining profit assumptions— under my assumptions it makes mining fairly unattractive in the long term vs conventional investment... but making any assumptions about future difficulty is the stuff that argument are made of...