1 2012-10-28 00:00:06 maaku has quit (Client Quit)
  2 2012-10-28 00:00:36 <sipa> it should say "Performing wallet upgrade to 40000" in debug.log
  3 2012-10-28 00:00:59 <sipa> or "Allowing wallet upgrade to 40000"
  4 2012-10-28 00:02:10 * sipa zZzZ
  5 2012-10-28 00:02:12 <runeks> "Performing wallet upgrade to 60000" it says
  6 2012-10-28 00:03:29 <sipa> what's the exact command-line?
  7 2012-10-28 00:03:51 <runeks> bitcoin-qt -updragewallet=40000
  8 2012-10-28 00:04:06 <sipa> right, you copied my typo :)
  9 2012-10-28 00:04:12 <sipa> -upgradewallet=40000 it should be
 10 2012-10-28 00:04:14 <runeks> oh. i see now :)
 11 2012-10-28 00:04:21 <sipa> i need sleep
 12 2012-10-28 00:04:22 <sipa> bye
 13 2012-10-28 00:04:31 <runeks> me too!
 14 2012-10-28 00:04:41 <runeks> (apparently)
 15 2012-10-28 00:07:02 <runeks> later!
 16 2012-10-28 00:07:06 runeks has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 17 2012-10-28 00:08:50 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: SLEEP MODE. puppy: it'd be wise to actual chat on here and not loiter.)
 18 2012-10-28 00:10:46 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
 19 2012-10-28 00:10:46 <gribble> 205307
 20 2012-10-28 00:19:55 <kjj_> wait, why doesn't the WIF need to know if the pubkey was even or odd?
 21 2012-10-28 00:20:25 <gmaxwell> WIF?
 22 2012-10-28 00:20:52 <sipa> wallet import format; and it does need to know (and does know)
 23 2012-10-28 00:21:51 <kjj_> it looks like it has to figure it out
 24 2012-10-28 00:21:58 gfinn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 25 2012-10-28 00:22:02 optimator has joined
 26 2012-10-28 00:22:13 <sipa> there's a marker byte at the end for compressed ones
 27 2012-10-28 00:23:00 <kjj_> right, but the WIF only knows compressed or not.  it has to do the multiplication itself
 28 2012-10-28 00:23:29 <sipa> yes, of course
 29 2012-10-28 00:24:00 <sipa> well, not of course, but for reason of compactness the corresponding EC point is not encoded, as it can be reconstructed
 30 2012-10-28 00:24:50 <kjj_> right, I get side-tracked soemtimes and forget that while the even/odd flag is needed to solve for Y from X, it isn't needed when starting from K
 31 2012-10-28 00:26:49 <kjj_> as in, a given secret could correspond to either 0x02... or 0x03... , but not to both
 32 2012-10-28 00:26:52 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 33 2012-10-28 00:27:41 RainbowDashh has joined
 34 2012-10-28 00:28:36 meLon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 35 2012-10-28 00:34:58 maqr has joined
 36 2012-10-28 00:44:50 t7 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9)
 37 2012-10-28 00:45:01 gfinn has joined
 38 2012-10-28 00:49:44 bcb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 39 2012-10-28 00:50:24 * helo wonders if he should attempt createrawtransaction or bother with copying the blockchain
 40 2012-10-28 00:56:43 <helo> anyone agree that it would be nice if, when one sends with an encrypted wallet, the password dialog has a drop-down for "show raw unsigned transaction"?
 41 2012-10-28 00:59:57 Mad7Scientist is now known as HlpMeLeaveUSA
 42 2012-10-28 01:06:15 asa1024 has quit (Quit: asa1024)
 43 2012-10-28 01:09:59 <helo> createrawunsignedsendtoaddress is probably a little long
 44 2012-10-28 01:14:17 <helo> would such a thing be a reasonable way to keep people from shooting themselves in the foot when creating raw transactions for offline signin?
 45 2012-10-28 01:15:01 <helo> gmaxwell: any thoughts?
 46 2012-10-28 01:16:53 <dparrish> what would be nice is for the bitcoind client to prompt for my wallet passphrase instead of requiring it on the commandline where it's visible to ps and my shell history :(
 47 2012-10-28 01:18:02 <helo> you can probably use an rpc client that doesn' keep history
 48 2012-10-28 01:18:26 <dparrish> shell history
 49 2012-10-28 01:19:05 <gmaxwell> dparrish: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54671.0
 50 2012-10-28 01:19:18 <gmaxwell> (not that the cli rpc shim couldn't be made smarter...)
 51 2012-10-28 01:19:22 optimator_ has joined
 52 2012-10-28 01:19:47 <dparrish> gmaxwell: thanks... still shows up in ps though. Not that's there's *currently* anyone else using my machine (that i know of)..
 53 2012-10-28 01:20:15 optimator has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 54 2012-10-28 01:21:19 <gmaxwell> helo: I've thought about createrawsend ... meh. Maybe.  I'd rather we think more about how to better support offline wallets in a less rocket science way but there are a bunch of things that have to happen.
 55 2012-10-28 01:21:36 <gmaxwell> (e.g. we probably need multiple wallet and watch only wallet support first. :( )
 56 2012-10-28 01:23:51 one_zero has joined
 57 2012-10-28 01:24:59 <gmaxwell> Perhaps someday we'll have a proper CLI interface. Maybe even a curses mode. :P
 58 2012-10-28 01:25:09 * dparrish grins in excitement
 59 2012-10-28 01:25:48 <gmaxwell> the one we have right now has the strong point that it really is the ~simplest possible client to the RPC. If you know the CLI you know the API for rpc access.
 60 2012-10-28 01:26:44 <gmaxwell> so there are probably 10x the number of people who could easily write some api using tool than there would be otherwise.
 61 2012-10-28 01:33:57 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 62 2012-10-28 01:34:22 RainbowDashh has joined
 63 2012-10-28 01:38:51 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 64 2012-10-28 01:39:10 RainbowDashh has joined
 65 2012-10-28 01:42:27 dparrish has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 66 2012-10-28 01:45:26 dparrish has joined
 67 2012-10-28 01:45:50 agath has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 68 2012-10-28 01:47:59 jouke has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 69 2012-10-28 02:22:53 <jgarzik> w00t
 70 2012-10-28 02:23:06 <jgarzik> picocoin exchanges P2P "version" messages
 71 2012-10-28 02:28:19 <jgarzik> next step, blockchain database download and sycn
 72 2012-10-28 02:28:21 <jgarzik> *sync
 73 2012-10-28 02:30:29 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: QUIT. yano is a potato)
 74 2012-10-28 02:34:52 rdponticelli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 75 2012-10-28 02:41:33 agath has joined
 76 2012-10-28 02:46:19 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 77 2012-10-28 02:46:31 fiesh has joined
 78 2012-10-28 02:52:39 sudog has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 79 2012-10-28 02:52:55 skeledrew has joined
 80 2012-10-28 02:56:59 skeledrew has quit (Client Quit)
 81 2012-10-28 02:57:49 skeledrew has joined
 82 2012-10-28 02:58:00 sudog has joined
 83 2012-10-28 03:18:14 agath has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 84 2012-10-28 03:18:14 setkeh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 85 2012-10-28 03:18:58 setkeh has joined
 86 2012-10-28 03:36:38 dvide has quit ()
 87 2012-10-28 03:39:37 copumpkin has joined
 88 2012-10-28 03:39:52 MiningBuddy- has joined
 89 2012-10-28 03:39:55 MiningBuddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 90 2012-10-28 03:45:14 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 91 2012-10-28 03:45:20 fiesh_ has joined
 92 2012-10-28 03:45:49 paraipan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 93 2012-10-28 03:54:38 <knotwork> Can the raw transactions RPC stuff enable people to create transactions such as user A icommitting to sending a specific sum to user B if oracle Y signs it?
 94 2012-10-28 03:55:08 <knotwork> And also enable oracles Y and N to sign on demand any such transactions?
 95 2012-10-28 03:55:58 <knotwork> So oracle Y and N could act as Yes and No oracles on a point of fact, and users can give each other transactions that will be able to be made effective by such oracles?
 96 2012-10-28 03:57:41 <knotwork> Basically bet transactions, users will bet each other "I bet oracle A will not sign this!" or "I bet oracle N will not sign this!" type of effect?
 97 2012-10-28 03:58:04 <knotwork> (Since if the oracle does sign it, oops you just parted with some coin)
 98 2012-10-28 03:59:02 <knotwork> I am thinking the oracles will be publicly known addresses with whom users construct two of two addresses
 99 2012-10-28 03:59:03 <gmaxwell> knotwork: you must two phase that sort of thing in bitcoin, otherwise you can defeat the oracle's signature by spending the input out from under it.
100 2012-10-28 03:59:45 <knotwork> isnt two of two supposed to be a kind of escrow?
101 2012-10-28 04:00:05 <gmaxwell> I'm missing the context of your question.
102 2012-10-28 04:00:08 <knotwork> you deposit your bet into an address where it will rot forever unless both you and the oracle sign it?
103 2012-10-28 04:00:24 <knotwork> oops yeah you also need a way to get it back out
104 2012-10-28 04:00:30 <gmaxwell> Was your question a response to something I said?
105 2012-10-28 04:00:55 <knotwork> No its related to ways of doing shorts and longs or calls and puts
106 2012-10-28 04:01:15 <gmaxwell> so first you'd relinquish control of coins to 2 of 3 (me, you, oracle), then after the matter is resolved me+you or one of us and the oracle pay the coins back to whereever the signing parties consent to.
107 2012-10-28 04:01:22 <knotwork> trying to figure a way to make bets using blockchain provided oracles exist that can settle questions of fact
108 2012-10-28 04:02:32 <gmaxwell> What you can't do is do this securely without first relinquishing sole control of the coins. (otherwise you'll just wait until the event happens not in your favor and rapidly spend the coins.
109 2012-10-28 04:02:39 <gmaxwell> )
110 2012-10-28 04:02:47 <knotwork> Hmm.
111 2012-10-28 04:03:14 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
112 2012-10-28 04:03:32 <knotwork> One model that sounded promising amounted to two people agreeing on a strike price and volume either could exercise at any moment during some span of time
113 2012-10-28 04:03:46 <knotwork> like say we both might agree to $11 per bitcoin strke price
114 2012-10-28 04:04:09 <knotwork> then up until some expiry date, either of us can exercise it
115 2012-10-28 04:04:15 <knotwork> that model needed no oracle
116 2012-10-28 04:04:43 <knotwork> but not sure how that model would/could be enforced in blockchain either
117 2012-10-28 04:04:44 <gmaxwell> It doesn't? What is a $ and where can I find out about that in bitcoin? :P
118 2012-10-28 04:04:53 <gmaxwell> Right.
119 2012-10-28 04:05:15 <knotwork> oh yeah right that model needs two currencies
120 2012-10-28 04:05:33 <knotwork> the oracle method uses oracle instead of a second currency
121 2012-10-28 04:05:52 <knotwork> since given an oracle you can bet on whether it will or will not sign something
122 2012-10-28 04:06:57 <knotwork> so I was trying to figure out how I could set up an oracle, as in what it would actually sign and how, if there is for example an RPC call it would use nowadays to sign something
123 2012-10-28 04:07:16 <gmaxwell> if the oracle will sign nothing at all you'll get stuck if your counterparty is a dick.
124 2012-10-28 04:07:18 <knotwork> then hmm what would the users be building for it to sign and how would they build and sign it
125 2012-10-28 04:07:54 <knotwork> yeah so we need a y-junction, you put in coins and they either come back to you or proceed on to me
126 2012-10-28 04:08:00 <gmaxwell> knotwork: the rpc you want is signraw transaction. But really a proper oracle would run on tamper resistant hardware with remote attestation and not be based on bitcoin.
127 2012-10-28 04:08:04 <knotwork> with an oracle deciding which of us gets them
128 2012-10-28 04:08:12 <gmaxwell> knotwork: yea, thats easy to do.
129 2012-10-28 04:08:55 <gmaxwell> knotwork: here is an example of all the relevant commands: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/escrowexample.txt
130 2012-10-28 04:09:22 <knotwork> thanks
131 2012-10-28 04:10:15 <gmaxwell> you'd give the oracle a set of rules "If x pay a otherwise pay b" it gives you a public key. you include it in a 2-of-3.. then later you can ask it to sign according to the prearranged rule.
132 2012-10-28 04:10:48 <knotwork> great that sounds like just the thing thanks
133 2012-10-28 04:11:27 <knotwork> I hate having to use oracles really. I prefer the mutually exerciseable mutual option thing but that cannot be done on blockchain
134 2012-10-28 04:11:32 jrmithdobbs has quit (Quit: quit)
135 2012-10-28 04:11:36 <knotwork> maybe could be done in Open Transactions though
136 2012-10-28 04:12:14 EPiSKiNG- has joined
137 2012-10-28 04:14:10 jrmithdobbs has joined
138 2012-10-28 04:15:58 B0g4r7_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
139 2012-10-28 04:45:59 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
140 2012-10-28 04:46:07 TheSeven has joined
141 2012-10-28 04:55:49 rdponticelli has joined
142 2012-10-28 05:00:32 ThomasV has joined
143 2012-10-28 05:13:05 RainbowDashh has joined
144 2012-10-28 05:18:57 maaku has joined
145 2012-10-28 05:21:58 Gladamas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
146 2012-10-28 05:25:36 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
147 2012-10-28 05:26:22 eoss has joined
148 2012-10-28 05:26:22 eoss has quit (Changing host)
149 2012-10-28 05:26:22 eoss has joined
150 2012-10-28 05:30:01 Gladamas has joined
151 2012-10-28 05:33:10 servvs has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
152 2012-10-28 05:45:48 copumpkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
153 2012-10-28 05:46:22 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
154 2012-10-28 05:51:04 ibno has joined
155 2012-10-28 05:51:25 Garr255 has joined
156 2012-10-28 05:57:59 Gladamas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
157 2012-10-28 06:09:34 phantomcircuit has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
158 2012-10-28 06:09:49 <jgarzik> sipa: will any DNS seed or seeds.txt ever pick up a !NODE_NETWORK node?
159 2012-10-28 06:14:05 phantomcircuit has joined
160 2012-10-28 06:20:49 yellowhat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
161 2012-10-28 06:21:19 fiesh_ has joined
162 2012-10-28 06:21:19 setkeh has joined
163 2012-10-28 06:21:19 tsche has joined
164 2012-10-28 06:21:19 Icoin has joined
165 2012-10-28 06:21:19 root2 has joined
166 2012-10-28 06:21:19 HlpMeLeaveUSA has joined
167 2012-10-28 06:23:43 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
168 2012-10-28 06:26:48 <sipa> jgarzik: i think mine filters those out immediately
169 2012-10-28 06:27:32 RainbowDashh has joined
170 2012-10-28 06:29:15 RainbowDashh has quit (Changing host)
171 2012-10-28 06:29:15 RainbowDashh has joined
172 2012-10-28 06:41:21 Rottrrr has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
173 2012-10-28 06:43:59 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
174 2012-10-28 06:45:25 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
175 2012-10-28 06:47:56 Someguy123 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
176 2012-10-28 06:57:57 MC1984 has joined
177 2012-10-28 06:59:27 BCBot has joined
178 2012-10-28 06:59:27 BlueMattBot has joined
179 2012-10-28 06:59:27 sixx has joined
180 2012-10-28 07:00:19 jgarzik_ has joined
181 2012-10-28 07:00:19 maaku has joined
182 2012-10-28 07:01:48 JStoker has quit (Excess Flood)
183 2012-10-28 07:02:58 djoot has joined
184 2012-10-28 07:03:33 spq has joined
185 2012-10-28 07:04:33 imsaguy has joined
186 2012-10-28 07:04:40 Transfusion has joined
187 2012-10-28 07:04:55 imsaguy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
188 2012-10-28 07:10:38 ThomasV has joined
189 2012-10-28 07:10:55 Transfusion has quit (Changing host)
190 2012-10-28 07:10:55 Transfusion has joined
191 2012-10-28 07:11:06 ThomasV has quit (Changing host)
192 2012-10-28 07:11:06 ThomasV has joined
193 2012-10-28 07:11:22 MC1984 is now known as Guest66694
194 2012-10-28 07:11:23 BlueMattBot is now known as Guest73974
195 2012-10-28 07:11:27 djoot is now known as Guest17788
196 2012-10-28 07:11:39 imsaguy has joined
197 2012-10-28 07:26:02 15SAAGD8B has joined
198 2012-10-28 07:27:06 RainbowDashh has joined
199 2012-10-28 07:32:36 coresun has joined
200 2012-10-28 08:12:24 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
201 2012-10-28 08:12:51 ThomasV has joined
202 2012-10-28 08:25:29 RainbowDashh has joined
203 2012-10-28 08:35:50 Guest66694 is now known as MC
204 2012-10-28 08:38:05 coresun has quit (Quit: Leaving)
205 2012-10-28 08:41:32 JStoker has joined
206 2012-10-28 08:43:17 one_zero has joined
207 2012-10-28 08:43:17 Diablo-D3 has joined
208 2012-10-28 08:43:17 asherkin has joined
209 2012-10-28 08:43:17 kinlo has joined
210 2012-10-28 08:43:17 poop_ has joined
211 2012-10-28 08:43:17 smiddi has joined
212 2012-10-28 08:53:25 RainbowDashh has quit (Changing host)
213 2012-10-28 08:53:25 RainbowDashh has joined
214 2012-10-28 08:53:43 JStoker has quit (Changing host)
215 2012-10-28 08:53:43 JStoker has joined
216 2012-10-28 08:53:54 MC is now known as Guest95155
217 2012-10-28 08:57:26 jgarzik_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
218 2012-10-28 08:57:56 CodesInChaos has joined
219 2012-10-28 08:58:23 RazielZ has joined
220 2012-10-28 08:59:45 jgarzik_ has joined
221 2012-10-28 09:08:12 tonikt has joined
222 2012-10-28 09:08:40 yellowhat has joined
223 2012-10-28 09:08:47 yellowhat has quit (Changing host)
224 2012-10-28 09:08:47 yellowhat has joined
225 2012-10-28 09:09:09 yellowhat is now known as 20WABG1FQ
226 2012-10-28 09:09:20 20WABG1FQ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
227 2012-10-28 09:09:41 yellowhat1 has joined
228 2012-10-28 09:15:46 Impaler has joined
229 2012-10-28 09:17:27 jdnavarro has joined
230 2012-10-28 09:24:51 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: SLEEP MODE. yano is a potato)
231 2012-10-28 09:25:46 gjs278 has joined
232 2012-10-28 09:25:46 rdponticelli has joined
233 2012-10-28 09:25:46 sudog has joined
234 2012-10-28 09:25:46 gfinn has joined
235 2012-10-28 09:25:46 guruvan- has joined
236 2012-10-28 09:25:46 guruvan has joined
237 2012-10-28 09:25:46 darkee has joined
238 2012-10-28 09:25:46 PhantomSpark has joined
239 2012-10-28 09:25:46 molecular has joined
240 2012-10-28 09:25:46 Arnavion has joined
241 2012-10-28 09:25:46 BitcoinBaltar has joined
242 2012-10-28 09:25:46 DutchBrat has joined
243 2012-10-28 09:25:46 dusty__ has joined
244 2012-10-28 09:25:46 random_cat has joined
245 2012-10-28 09:25:46 sacredchao has joined
246 2012-10-28 09:25:46 bonks has joined
247 2012-10-28 09:25:46 devrandom has joined
248 2012-10-28 09:25:46 Symbols has joined
249 2012-10-28 09:25:46 MobiusL has joined
250 2012-10-28 09:25:46 PhantomSpark has joined
251 2012-10-28 09:25:46 bitcoinz has joined
252 2012-10-28 09:25:46 Graet has joined
253 2012-10-28 09:25:46 emryss has joined
254 2012-10-28 09:25:46 ForceMajeure has joined
255 2012-10-28 09:25:46 makomk has joined
256 2012-10-28 09:25:46 ageis has joined
257 2012-10-28 09:25:46 mps has joined
258 2012-10-28 09:25:46 NxTitle has joined
259 2012-10-28 09:25:46 _dr has joined
260 2012-10-28 09:25:46 balrog has joined
261 2012-10-28 09:25:46 nanotube has joined
262 2012-10-28 09:25:46 egecko has joined
263 2012-10-28 09:25:46 brocktice has joined
264 2012-10-28 09:25:46 lianj has joined
265 2012-10-28 09:25:46 lady_awk has joined
266 2012-10-28 09:25:46 Nicksasa has joined
267 2012-10-28 09:25:46 LittleDuke has joined
268 2012-10-28 09:25:47 yellowhat1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
269 2012-10-28 09:25:56 jdnavarro has quit (Excess Flood)
270 2012-10-28 09:26:08 yellowhat has joined
271 2012-10-28 09:26:45 yellowhat has quit (Changing host)
272 2012-10-28 09:26:45 yellowhat has joined
273 2012-10-28 09:29:05 jdnavarro has joined
274 2012-10-28 09:43:41 Someguy123 has joined
275 2012-10-28 09:48:31 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
276 2012-10-28 09:50:10 yellowhat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
277 2012-10-28 09:50:36 yellowhat1 has joined
278 2012-10-28 09:50:49 yellowhat1 has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
279 2012-10-28 09:51:04 yellowhat has joined
280 2012-10-28 09:51:34 stalled has joined
281 2012-10-28 09:53:58 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
282 2012-10-28 09:54:07 CodesInChaos has joined
283 2012-10-28 09:56:13 ThomasV has joined
284 2012-10-28 10:01:13 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
285 2012-10-28 10:02:31 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
286 2012-10-28 10:06:32 yellowhat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
287 2012-10-28 10:06:50 Impaler has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
288 2012-10-28 10:06:51 yellowhat has joined
289 2012-10-28 10:07:50 hnz has joined
290 2012-10-28 10:07:53 fiesh_ has joined
291 2012-10-28 10:07:53 setkeh has joined
292 2012-10-28 10:07:53 tsche has joined
293 2012-10-28 10:07:53 Icoin has joined
294 2012-10-28 10:07:53 root2 has joined
295 2012-10-28 10:07:53 HlpMeLeaveUSA has joined
296 2012-10-28 10:07:54 one_zero has joined
297 2012-10-28 10:07:54 Diablo-D3 has joined
298 2012-10-28 10:07:54 asherkin has joined
299 2012-10-28 10:07:54 kinlo has joined
300 2012-10-28 10:07:54 poop_ has joined
301 2012-10-28 10:07:54 smiddi has joined
302 2012-10-28 10:07:57 yellowhat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
303 2012-10-28 10:08:16 yellowhat has joined
304 2012-10-28 10:09:28 agath has joined
305 2012-10-28 10:24:47 datagutt has joined
306 2012-10-28 10:26:05 slush1 has joined
307 2012-10-28 10:27:58 gribble has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
308 2012-10-28 10:27:58 nanotube has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
309 2012-10-28 10:32:59 tonikt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
310 2012-10-28 10:33:44 nanotube has joined
311 2012-10-28 10:33:59 gribble has joined
312 2012-10-28 10:35:21 tonikt has joined
313 2012-10-28 11:07:06 OneFixt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
314 2012-10-28 11:29:04 jouke has joined
315 2012-10-28 11:39:28 ibno has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
316 2012-10-28 12:25:59 cosurgi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
317 2012-10-28 12:28:15 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
318 2012-10-28 12:28:56 BCBot2` has joined
319 2012-10-28 12:29:17 BCBot2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
320 2012-10-28 12:29:50 D34TH has joined
321 2012-10-28 12:31:59 BCBot has joined
322 2012-10-28 12:37:56 <jeremias> https://fundhub.org/
323 2012-10-28 12:38:01 <jeremias> anyone know about this?
324 2012-10-28 12:38:06 <jeremias> seems really interesting idea
325 2012-10-28 12:47:28 Arnavion has quit (Quit: ==kimi ni nante okureba ii no==)
326 2012-10-28 12:51:57 edcba__ is now known as edcba
327 2012-10-28 12:55:39 Arnavion has joined
328 2012-10-28 13:01:28 BCB has joined
329 2012-10-28 13:01:37 <BCB> anybody up yet
330 2012-10-28 13:03:47 <sipa> no, sorry
331 2012-10-28 13:06:55 <BCB> ha
332 2012-10-28 13:10:03 <BCB> can bitcoind return the total received from a public key not in my wallet?
333 2012-10-28 13:10:10 <sipa> no
334 2012-10-28 13:10:49 <BCB> what info can it return on a public key not in my wallet
335 2012-10-28 13:11:03 <Luke-Jr> nothing
336 2012-10-28 13:11:14 <sipa> total received by an address would be possible, but that requires an index that is not necessary for general operation, so it's not done
337 2012-10-28 13:11:44 <sipa> total received by a public key would imply being able to find all addresses (including P2SH) that are related to the public key, which is impossible
338 2012-10-28 13:12:00 <BCB> can bitcoind generate that index
339 2012-10-28 13:12:03 <sipa> no
340 2012-10-28 13:12:14 <Luke-Jr> BCB: if you hack it a bit
341 2012-10-28 13:12:27 <BCB> so when I go to blockchain.info and put in an address I get total received
342 2012-10-28 13:12:40 <BCB> i would prefer to do that internally
343 2012-10-28 13:12:46 <sipa> what do you need it for?
344 2012-10-28 13:13:15 <Luke-Jr> BCB: I think Armory supports this
345 2012-10-28 13:13:15 <BCB> researching deposit addresses
346 2012-10-28 13:13:36 <sipa> yeah, we should support watch-only addresses/wallets
347 2012-10-28 13:13:37 <BCB> so if its possible how is it done
348 2012-10-28 13:14:57 <Luke-Jr> you tell bitcoind it's yours
349 2012-10-28 13:15:04 <BCB> hmmm
350 2012-10-28 13:15:15 <BCB> cmd?
351 2012-10-28 13:15:20 <Luke-Jr> there is no cmd
352 2012-10-28 13:15:32 <Luke-Jr> probably an hour of hacking if you know what you're doing
353 2012-10-28 13:15:52 <sipa> BCB: bitcoin's addresses are not intended to be reused, so requesting a balance for an address seems pointless
354 2012-10-28 13:15:56 <Luke-Jr> (which you probably don't, based on the questions you're asking)
355 2012-10-28 13:16:04 <sipa> well, there are some cases where it's useful of course
356 2012-10-28 13:16:05 <BCB> I don't
357 2012-10-28 13:16:12 <BCB> but i'm curious
358 2012-10-28 13:16:16 <BCB> best way to learn
359 2012-10-28 13:16:27 <sipa> but most often, you want to reason in function of wallets which collect several addresses, instead of just a single address
360 2012-10-28 13:16:48 <sipa> as those don't necessarily reveal connection to the outside world
361 2012-10-28 13:17:18 <BCB> but this external address is not in any of my wallets
362 2012-10-28 13:17:44 <sipa> yes, that's why we'd need to support watch-only wallets
363 2012-10-28 13:18:11 <sipa> (and multiple wallets)
364 2012-10-28 13:18:11 <BCB> and bitcoind current does not support that?
365 2012-10-28 13:18:14 <sipa> no
366 2012-10-28 13:18:28 <sipa> but that's planned
367 2012-10-28 13:18:34 <BCB> sipa: you are an armory developer
368 2012-10-28 13:18:38 <sipa> no
369 2012-10-28 13:18:42 <sipa> i'm a bitcoind developer
370 2012-10-28 13:19:29 <BCB> oh you meant "we" and in bitcoind not armory previously sorry
371 2012-10-28 13:19:40 <BCB> as in
372 2012-10-28 13:19:43 <sipa> yes
373 2012-10-28 13:20:06 D34TH_ has joined
374 2012-10-28 13:20:07 <BCB> no a bit deal
375 2012-10-28 13:20:11 <sipa> ha
376 2012-10-28 13:20:14 <sipa> a bit deal
377 2012-10-28 13:20:21 <BCB> fat fingers
378 2012-10-28 13:20:23 <BCB> sorry
379 2012-10-28 13:20:28 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
380 2012-10-28 13:20:28 <BCB> bit
381 2012-10-28 13:20:30 <BCB> big
382 2012-10-28 13:20:35 <BCB> the friggen g
383 2012-10-28 13:20:36 <sipa> no problem, just found it funny :)
384 2012-10-28 13:20:46 * sipa afk
385 2012-10-28 13:20:57 <BCB> I'm just trying to keep all my api call on my own box
386 2012-10-28 13:21:29 <BCB> when possible
387 2012-10-28 13:21:56 <BCB> so if I send funds to a external address
388 2012-10-28 13:22:32 <BCB> and want to confirm funds, confirms etc
389 2012-10-28 13:22:57 <BCB> I get generate that from my bitcoind but not funds I did not send to that address
390 2012-10-28 13:23:06 aq83 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
391 2012-10-28 13:23:13 <sipa> not following
392 2012-10-28 13:23:33 <BCB> if a user is accessesing my web service
393 2012-10-28 13:23:50 <sipa> the bitcoind wallet tracks transactions sent to any of your addresses, and spends from any transaction that was yours
394 2012-10-28 13:23:50 <BCB> I can call gettransaction and get confirmation info etc
395 2012-10-28 13:24:44 <BCB> but not transactions received by that external address if I did not initiate the transaction
396 2012-10-28 13:25:00 aq83 has joined
397 2012-10-28 13:25:11 <sipa> indeed
398 2012-10-28 13:25:39 <BCB> but if i know what i was doing i could hack that out in an hour
399 2012-10-28 13:25:43 <BCB> any directions
400 2012-10-28 13:25:48 <BCB> maybe a clue
401 2012-10-28 13:26:00 <sipa> why do you need that?
402 2012-10-28 13:26:39 <sipa> ideally, addresses shouldn't be reused, so there shouldn't be any receives except yours to that address
403 2012-10-28 13:27:23 <sipa> and any clues: wallet.{h,cpp} have some IsMine/IsFromMe functions
404 2012-10-28 13:27:24 <BCB> buy user do reuse addresses often
405 2012-10-28 13:27:42 <sipa> yes, i know, and i hope that will decrease in the future
406 2012-10-28 13:27:55 <BCB> why
407 2012-10-28 13:28:02 <sipa> becaue it's bad for bitcoin
408 2012-10-28 13:28:11 <BCB> anonymity
409 2012-10-28 13:28:14 <BCB> ?
410 2012-10-28 13:28:16 <sipa> it decreases privacy for everyone in the system
411 2012-10-28 13:28:24 <BCB> is that the only reason
412 2012-10-28 13:28:33 <sipa> it's not enough?
413 2012-10-28 13:28:57 <BCB> I just thinking from a standard point of vie
414 2012-10-28 13:28:58 <BCB> w
415 2012-10-28 13:29:12 <sipa> well the standard point of view is going for the route that is easiest
416 2012-10-28 13:29:15 <BCB> maybe TBF needs to reccomend that to client develpers
417 2012-10-28 13:29:32 <sipa> so we should make it easy to not reuse addresses
418 2012-10-28 13:29:44 <BCB> yes
419 2012-10-28 13:29:54 <sipa> also, users shouldn't ever see a base58 address at all, in my opinion
420 2012-10-28 13:30:05 <BCB> what should you see
421 2012-10-28 13:30:15 <sipa> something like an email address or a url
422 2012-10-28 13:30:29 <BCB> sipa: i will be your evangulist
423 2012-10-28 13:30:30 <sipa> and have the bitcoin key negotiated automatically
424 2012-10-28 13:30:33 <BCB> I totally agree
425 2012-10-28 13:30:38 <sipa> lol
426 2012-10-28 13:30:43 <BCB> seriously
427 2012-10-28 13:30:48 <BCB> it fucking ugly and scary
428 2012-10-28 13:31:08 <BCB> you'll never see mass adobtion until it is abstracted
429 2012-10-28 13:31:12 <sipa> the fact that we call these base58 strings "addresses" is part of the problem, imho
430 2012-10-28 13:31:24 <sipa> they are not addresses if people don't expect payments to them
431 2012-10-28 13:31:36 <Diablo-D3> er, what?
432 2012-10-28 13:31:36 <sipa> they are public key identifiers, and nothing more
433 2012-10-28 13:31:47 <BCB> I took me 6 months to make the destinction between "address" and Public key
434 2012-10-28 13:31:51 <Diablo-D3> so basically you want pgp idents
435 2012-10-28 13:31:58 <BCB> total aggree
436 2012-10-28 13:32:00 <BCB> ly
437 2012-10-28 13:32:00 <Diablo-D3> "pgp sign to address@fuckyou.asshole
438 2012-10-28 13:32:06 <Diablo-D3> etc etc
439 2012-10-28 13:32:09 <sipa> not really
440 2012-10-28 13:32:23 ibno has joined
441 2012-10-28 13:32:57 <BCB> sipa: what do you mean have the bitoin key negotiated automatically
442 2012-10-28 13:33:25 <sipa> i want "i pay to https://www.mywebshop.com/order2134.btc", client fetches from that URI, result contains a signed message "pay amount X to address Y", client creates transaction that satisfies the requirements, and sends it back to the merchent (*not* to the p2p network)
443 2012-10-28 13:34:55 <BCB> signed message come from server? using private key?
444 2012-10-28 13:35:08 <sipa> there are several layers of security possible
445 2012-10-28 13:35:56 <BCB> so server generates bot x and y address?
446 2012-10-28 13:36:09 <BCB> both
447 2012-10-28 13:36:21 <sipa> X is an amount, that depends on what you bought or want to pay for
448 2012-10-28 13:36:38 <sipa> in some circumstances, it could be left to the sender (in case of a donation, for example)
449 2012-10-28 13:37:03 <BCB> and how does the server know who the client is
450 2012-10-28 13:37:08 <sipa> read this if you want an example in detail (it's more than a year old, and i'd do some things differently, but still): https://gist.github.com/1237788
451 2012-10-28 13:37:16 <sipa> BCB: why does the server need to know who the client is?
452 2012-10-28 13:37:23 <BCB> oh oh
453 2012-10-28 13:37:43 <sipa> if someone comes into your shop and says "hey i want to pay for order X", do you even care whether he is the one that ordered it?
454 2012-10-28 13:37:59 <BCB> i mistook x and y for addresses not amount address
455 2012-10-28 13:38:16 <BCB> Sipa: whay is that a YEAR old
456 2012-10-28 13:38:34 <BCB> why
457 2012-10-28 13:38:37 <sipa> nobody found it important enough, i guess
458 2012-10-28 13:39:24 <sipa> anyway, afk
459 2012-10-28 13:39:39 <BCB> but is not the dev team focus core operation and security of the client?
460 2012-10-28 13:40:17 <sipa> yes, and this has not much to do with the client anymore
461 2012-10-28 13:40:18 <BCB> in my humble opinion an impliment like you are discussing could be HUGE for adobtion
462 2012-10-28 13:40:33 <sipa> it's about an infrastructure on top of the current bitcoin network
463 2012-10-28 13:40:36 <BCB> ahh
464 2012-10-28 13:40:57 <sipa> obviously at some point you'd want clients to support it, but you need more than that
465 2012-10-28 13:40:57 <BCB> maybe there should be a UI team
466 2012-10-28 13:41:09 <BCB> like what
467 2012-10-28 13:41:19 <sipa> read the document first
468 2012-10-28 13:41:28 <BCB> ok
469 2012-10-28 13:41:34 <BCB> thx
470 2012-10-28 13:41:50 <sipa> you need servers that provide the payment information, and servers to handle incoming ones (they can be the same, though)
471 2012-10-28 13:42:02 <sipa> anyway, i believe gavin wants to focus on payment protocols in the future
472 2012-10-28 13:42:19 <BCB> I think you are on to something big there.
473 2012-10-28 13:42:30 <BCB> he should
474 2012-10-28 13:43:36 <BCB> sipa:servers on which the bitcoind resides or external
475 2012-10-28 13:45:08 <sipa> to generate public keys for payments does not need any connection to the network
476 2012-10-28 13:45:26 <sipa> handling incoming ones does, as you want to verify their validity
477 2012-10-28 13:48:52 <BCB> yes.  I've hacked together a php api that generates key pairs on or off like so that each transaction is receiving a fresh off line address
478 2012-10-28 13:49:36 <BCB> so my desire is to be able to confirm the transaction with out importing the private key until it is time to pay out
479 2012-10-28 13:50:39 <BCB> so if the address is not in my walled I can't validate the transaction
480 2012-10-28 13:53:25 <sipa> bdbuse deterministic key generation, so public and private keys don't need to be one the same server
481 2012-10-28 13:53:37 <sipa> BCB
482 2012-10-28 13:55:04 <BCB> sipa: "deterministic key generation"  - do you have a link
483 2012-10-28 13:56:30 <sipa> BCB: bip30 :)
484 2012-10-28 13:56:44 <BCB> thx
485 2012-10-28 13:57:35 <sipa> eh, 32!
486 2012-10-28 13:59:15 <BCB> THX:  I was trying to figure out what duplicate transactions had to to with it !!
487 2012-10-28 14:00:38 abrkn has joined
488 2012-10-28 14:01:37 <BCB> sipa: Dev teams need to be divided up
489 2012-10-28 14:01:53 <BCB> sipa:you need to lead the UI team
490 2012-10-28 14:02:03 <sipa> hell f*cking no
491 2012-10-28 14:02:13 <abrkn> are there any online wallet services that provide apis for sending funds, creating addresses and streaming/push apis for being notified when an address has received funds? (i want to integrate bitcoin balances into my service without storing the wallets directly)
492 2012-10-28 14:03:09 <BCB> sipa: why not
493 2012-10-28 14:03:57 <BCB> abrkn: blockchain.info/api
494 2012-10-28 14:04:46 <BCB> abrkn:there are other but they and their accessibily come and go so be careful
495 2012-10-28 14:05:48 <abrkn> ok, so blockinfo will notify me of funds. which bank is fairly safe? i wont be handling large amounts at this point
496 2012-10-28 14:06:14 <sipa> BCB: i don't know anytging about user interface, and don't care at all about how a program looks (i mostly use command lines myself). what i care about is interoperability and efficiency
497 2012-10-28 14:07:34 <BCB> sipa:then i'm using the wrong term.
498 2012-10-28 14:07:56 <BCB> sipa: you need to lead the interoperability/efficency team!
499 2012-10-28 14:07:59 <BCB> serious
500 2012-10-28 14:10:30 D34TH has joined
501 2012-10-28 14:10:30 D34TH_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
502 2012-10-28 14:12:08 one_zero has quit ()
503 2012-10-28 14:14:01 conman has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
504 2012-10-28 14:16:35 rdponticelli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
505 2012-10-28 14:18:50 <BCB> arkin: pm me this isn't really a btcoin-dev issue
506 2012-10-28 14:19:16 <BCB> abrkn:
507 2012-10-28 14:20:56 <D34TH> abrkn: that would be a #bitcoin topic
508 2012-10-28 14:26:10 rdponticelli has joined
509 2012-10-28 14:28:54 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
510 2012-10-28 14:31:55 servvs has joined
511 2012-10-28 14:33:29 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
512 2012-10-28 14:46:53 rdponticelli has joined
513 2012-10-28 14:49:26 pooler has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
514 2012-10-28 14:50:31 zveda has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
515 2012-10-28 14:50:44 pooler has joined
516 2012-10-28 14:52:53 Icoin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
517 2012-10-28 15:09:13 agricocb has joined
518 2012-10-28 15:10:02 aurigae has joined
519 2012-10-28 15:16:16 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
520 2012-10-28 15:20:45 d34th has joined
521 2012-10-28 15:20:45 d34th has quit (Changing host)
522 2012-10-28 15:20:45 d34th has joined
523 2012-10-28 15:29:47 slush1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
524 2012-10-28 15:31:01 MiningBuddy- is now known as MiningBuddy
525 2012-10-28 15:31:02 MiningBuddy has quit (Changing host)
526 2012-10-28 15:31:02 MiningBuddy has joined
527 2012-10-28 15:33:09 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
528 2012-10-28 15:36:14 jdnavarro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
529 2012-10-28 15:39:40 d34th has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
530 2012-10-28 15:42:32 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
531 2012-10-28 15:42:56 D34TH has joined
532 2012-10-28 15:42:56 D34TH has quit (Changing host)
533 2012-10-28 15:42:56 D34TH has joined
534 2012-10-28 15:52:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: difference between importing time for 193k blocks between -O2 and -O3 (both on -flto): 30%
535 2012-10-28 15:53:29 <sipa> 22m -> 16m
536 2012-10-28 15:55:15 <sipa> hmm, objects were compiled with -O0 and linked with -O2; maybe the initial optimization level does matter
537 2012-10-28 16:15:36 maaku has joined
538 2012-10-28 16:17:17 <Diablo-D3> sipa: linker -O just controls link time optimization shit
539 2012-10-28 16:17:22 <Diablo-D3> like, cross object inlining
540 2012-10-28 16:17:24 <Diablo-D3> if your gcc supports it
541 2012-10-28 16:17:27 <Diablo-D3> otherwise it does nothing
542 2012-10-28 16:17:28 <sipa> yes, that's the theory
543 2012-10-28 16:17:35 <Diablo-D3> historically, it has never done anything
544 2012-10-28 16:17:45 <Diablo-D3> and iirc its only turned on at -O3
545 2012-10-28 16:18:07 <Diablo-D3> also, gcc doesnt support multiple -O levels across objects, shit can go bad
546 2012-10-28 16:22:18 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
547 2012-10-28 16:23:44 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
548 2012-10-28 16:25:01 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
549 2012-10-28 16:25:48 da2ce7_d has joined
550 2012-10-28 16:28:18 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
551 2012-10-28 16:31:26 stalled has joined
552 2012-10-28 16:35:18 D34TH_ has joined
553 2012-10-28 16:35:18 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
554 2012-10-28 16:39:35 sgornick has joined
555 2012-10-28 16:44:57 jgarzik_ has quit (Changing host)
556 2012-10-28 16:44:57 jgarzik_ has joined
557 2012-10-28 16:45:00 jgarzik_ is now known as jgarzik
558 2012-10-28 16:51:29 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
559 2012-10-28 16:53:04 <jgarzik> sipa: heh
560 2012-10-28 16:53:11 <OneEyed> Diablo-D3: FUD
561 2012-10-28 16:53:16 <jgarzik> sipa: compile optimization level matters far more than linker opt level ;p
562 2012-10-28 16:53:20 <OneEyed> Diablo-D3: GCC supports having multiple -O levels just fine
563 2012-10-28 16:53:40 <jgarzik> indeed
564 2012-10-28 16:53:47 <OneEyed> Diablo-D3: and on some architectures, gold (the new ld from binutils) supports link time optimization
565 2012-10-28 16:53:48 <jgarzik> the ABI does not change based on opt level
566 2012-10-28 16:53:53 <jgarzik> ABI is ABI
567 2012-10-28 16:54:25 maaku has joined
568 2012-10-28 16:54:31 maaku has quit (Client Quit)
569 2012-10-28 16:54:32 <jgarzik> even if gcc inlines some code, ABI says it must emit a copy if it's a public function, etc.
570 2012-10-28 16:55:39 <OneEyed> I remember testing one file at -O0, then -O1, -O2, -O3 while keeping the rest unchanged when debugging some C or Ada compiler bugs in GCC
571 2012-10-28 16:55:57 <OneEyed> It would have been a nightmare if that didn't work :)
572 2012-10-28 16:57:45 graingert has joined
573 2012-10-28 16:58:32 <sipa> jgarzik: with -flto, the optimization is (at least in theory) only done at link time
574 2012-10-28 16:59:51 <sipa> and sure if you specify -O0, the .o file itself contain a non-optimized compiled object version of the code, but that shouldn't be used
575 2012-10-28 17:00:28 <OneEyed> sipa: if you have a linker that recognize -flto - as far as I remember, some platforms don't have it yet
576 2012-10-28 17:00:57 <OneEyed> and you'll end up with your pessimized code instead (since -O0 is not non-optimized code as another compiler would do, that would rather correspond to almost -O1)
577 2012-10-28 17:01:08 <sipa> OneEyed: given the fact that the linking stage takes far longer than the compilation stage, and forks several subprocesses, i figure it does :)
578 2012-10-28 17:01:36 <OneEyed> sipa: oh yeah, on x86/x86_64/ARM at least, the linker understands it
579 2012-10-28 17:03:29 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
580 2012-10-28 17:08:28 darkskiez has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
581 2012-10-28 17:09:03 darkskiez has joined
582 2012-10-28 17:09:24 dusty__ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
583 2012-10-28 17:15:18 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
584 2012-10-28 17:26:47 maaku has joined
585 2012-10-28 17:32:36 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
586 2012-10-28 17:33:12 <Diablo-D3> [12:41:24] <OneEyed> Diablo-D3: FUD
587 2012-10-28 17:33:14 <Diablo-D3> no FUD at all
588 2012-10-28 17:33:20 <Diablo-D3> FUD doesnt even make sense in this context
589 2012-10-28 17:33:26 <Diablo-D3> I've used gcc for 15 years
590 2012-10-28 17:33:29 <Diablo-D3> I see no problems with it
591 2012-10-28 17:33:32 D34TH_ is now known as D34TH
592 2012-10-28 17:33:37 <Diablo-D3> [12:42:45] <jgarzik> even if gcc inlines some code, ABI says it must emit a copy if it's a public function, etc.
593 2012-10-28 17:33:39 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: yes
594 2012-10-28 17:33:39 D34TH has quit (Changing host)
595 2012-10-28 17:33:39 D34TH has joined
596 2012-10-28 17:33:45 <Diablo-D3> so in theory nothing should hoark
597 2012-10-28 17:34:23 <Diablo-D3> oh and as for bugs in -O0, yeaaaah, gcc is aware of this and doesnt care
598 2012-10-28 17:36:12 <gmaxwell> 09:06 < Diablo-D3> also, gcc doesnt support multiple -O levels across objects, shit can go bad
599 2012-10-28 17:36:15 <gmaxwell> ^ huh?
600 2012-10-28 17:36:41 <gmaxwell> I'm pretty sure thats not true, got a cite?  There is even a pragma to change the optimization level/flags in the source.
601 2012-10-28 17:37:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: when estimating compressibility per-block, i forgot to take pubkey reconstruction from signatures into account; new estimate: 39% compression (from 100 to 61 bytes)
602 2012-10-28 17:39:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: that LTO speedup isn't inconsistent with some other things I've seen, but it would probably be good to figure out why— since we might get even more out of fixing whatever it is directly
603 2012-10-28 17:40:40 <D34TH> what is happening
604 2012-10-28 17:40:51 <D34TH> im noticing MASSIVE speed improments
605 2012-10-28 17:41:03 <D34TH> loadblock is going atleast 10x faster
606 2012-10-28 17:41:58 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: Ive had that bite me in the ass in the past
607 2012-10-28 17:42:02 <sipa> D34TH: faster than what?
608 2012-10-28 17:42:06 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: its obviously a bug and shouldnt happen
609 2012-10-28 17:42:08 <D34TH> normal
610 2012-10-28 17:42:17 <sipa> well what changed?
611 2012-10-28 17:42:32 <Diablo-D3> D34TH: forgot to clear your file cache first?
612 2012-10-28 17:42:44 <D34TH> oct 25's commits are all ive pulled
613 2012-10-28 17:42:56 <sipa> D34TH: and what code where you on before that?
614 2012-10-28 17:43:09 <D34TH> 62e21fb5d0
615 2012-10-28 17:43:13 <D34TH> oct 24
616 2012-10-28 17:45:24 <D34TH> almost fully imported already
617 2012-10-28 17:45:42 <sipa> how many blocks on how much time?
618 2012-10-28 17:46:11 <D34TH> 146032 in roughly 5 minutes
619 2012-10-28 17:46:40 <sipa> looks normal to me
620 2012-10-28 17:46:47 <D34TH> quite faster for me
621 2012-10-28 17:46:51 <sipa> the slow part is yet to come
622 2012-10-28 17:47:00 <D34TH> and my loadavg isnt being raped
623 2012-10-28 17:53:10 <gmaxwell> CPU usage will go up when you go over the highest checkpoint.
624 2012-10-28 17:53:34 <D34TH> for verifying right?
625 2012-10-28 17:53:42 <gmaxwell> For ECDSA.
626 2012-10-28 17:53:47 <D34TH> whats the highest checkpoint?
627 2012-10-28 17:53:56 <D34TH> ill let you know the results
628 2012-10-28 17:54:05 <sipa> 193k
629 2012-10-28 17:54:19 <D34TH> k, shouldnt take long im @ 180k
630 2012-10-28 17:54:29 <sipa> you'll likely spend more time on 193k-now than on everything before 193k
631 2012-10-28 17:58:09 graingert_ has joined
632 2012-10-28 18:00:50 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
633 2012-10-28 18:01:41 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
634 2012-10-28 18:03:51 <sipa> gmaxwell: not sure what you mean; i wasn't comparing LTO to non-LTO
635 2012-10-28 18:04:02 <sipa> only optization levels within lto
636 2012-10-28 18:04:12 Belkaar has joined
637 2012-10-28 18:04:27 <D34TH> gmaxwell, ive actually seen a small decrease ~2%
638 2012-10-28 18:04:42 <D34TH> but what is rev*.dat
639 2012-10-28 18:04:53 servvs has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
640 2012-10-28 18:05:04 <sipa> D34TH: undo data for blocks
641 2012-10-28 18:05:12 <D34TH> ahh
642 2012-10-28 18:05:23 graingert_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
643 2012-10-28 18:05:24 <sipa> it's only needed to reorganize away from a block
644 2012-10-28 18:06:06 copumpkin has joined
645 2012-10-28 18:22:11 Zarutian has joined
646 2012-10-28 18:27:14 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: do coders dream of sheep()?)
647 2012-10-28 18:28:10 <jgarzik> <gmaxwell> 09:06 < Diablo-D3> also, gcc doesnt support multiple -O levels across objects, shit can go bad
648 2012-10-28 18:28:12 <jgarzik> 100% not true
649 2012-10-28 18:28:51 <sipa> well i have seen cases were trying to mix object files compiled with and without -flto causes a link failures
650 2012-10-28 18:28:52 <jgarzik> sipa: there is definitely optimization that occurs at compile time, with -flto
651 2012-10-28 18:29:04 <jgarzik> sipa: oh definitely, but that is separate from -O
652 2012-10-28 18:29:51 <sipa> jgarzik: sure, for the object code in the .o files, but i didn't know the compilation-time -O flag influenced the intermediate format code in the .o files
653 2012-10-28 18:30:32 <jgarzik> sipa: yes, it influences that too
654 2012-10-28 18:30:39 <sipa> well, apparently :)
655 2012-10-28 18:30:42 <jgarzik> sipa: simple constant folding, loop opts and other stuff
656 2012-10-28 18:30:48 <sipa> right
657 2012-10-28 18:30:53 <sipa> early optimizations
658 2012-10-28 18:31:03 <jgarzik> yep
659 2012-10-28 18:31:49 TD has joined
660 2012-10-28 18:32:13 <jgarzik> TD: (resend earlier message)  JFYI, smartcoin (pybond) is idling, while I poke at picocoin
661 2012-10-28 18:32:19 <TD> what is picocoin?
662 2012-10-28 18:32:29 <sipa> yet another C implementation of Bitcoin
663 2012-10-28 18:32:33 <jgarzik> TD: SPV client, written in C
664 2012-10-28 18:32:45 <TD> ok
665 2012-10-28 18:32:54 <TD> if you want you can compile bitcoinj to native using GCJ
666 2012-10-28 18:33:09 * sipa thinks jgarzik prefers writing C over reading Java
667 2012-10-28 18:33:25 <jgarzik> hehehe a fair assumption
668 2012-10-28 18:33:52 <gmaxwell> TD: though that still won't result in something with very minimal memory usage and such.
669 2012-10-28 18:34:02 Diablo-D3 has joined
670 2012-10-28 18:34:31 <TD> i'm sure you can make it use a bit less memory than any java codebase, but i doubt it'll make so much difference that it matters in any real use case
671 2012-10-28 18:34:43 <TD> but go ahead. just remember that it's a lot of work :)
672 2012-10-28 18:36:03 <sipa> \o/ a 15th .onion node
673 2012-10-28 18:36:55 <sipa> 11 reachable ones
674 2012-10-28 18:38:56 * jgarzik would like to figure out how to do an AES decryption stream, rather than (1) read whole file, (2) decrypt entire memory buffer to another memory buffer, (3) read plaintext memory buffer
675 2012-10-28 18:39:22 <sipa> if you use stream encryption, that is slightly easier
676 2012-10-28 18:39:40 <sipa> but even per-block it's not very hard to implement CBC or so
677 2012-10-28 18:41:56 <gmaxwell> or OFB mode instead of a stream cipher.
678 2012-10-28 18:47:31 <sipa> brainstorm: how should database upgrade/copy/move work in bitcoind?
679 2012-10-28 18:48:18 <jgarzik> sipa: ideal world?  start, note "upgrading database", reindex.  progress bar for UI.
680 2012-10-28 18:48:57 <jgarzik> RE stream, I'm using AES-CBC right now
681 2012-10-28 18:48:59 <gmaxwell> Refuse to start until someone deletes the old data or gives it -upgrade option.
682 2012-10-28 18:49:15 <jgarzik> just the API is whole-region, and I need to drill down and figure out how to iterate
683 2012-10-28 18:49:23 <sipa> in bitcoin-qt, i'd say check the size of blk000?.dat vs blocks/blk0000?.dat, and if larger, show a dialog that asks "Do you want to (a) import the earlier database, but leave it intact, or (b) move the old one to the new", with (b) greyed out if some blocks/* files already exist
684 2012-10-28 18:49:26 B0g4r7_ has joined
685 2012-10-28 18:50:08 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
686 2012-10-28 18:50:39 <sipa> oh, and (c) skip import and download from scratch
687 2012-10-28 18:51:18 <gmaxwell> why bother offering C?    I also thought the question was really "leave the old data behind, allowing downgrades, or recover space?"
688 2012-10-28 18:51:51 <sipa> well, if there already are existing new files, you can't really offer (b)
689 2012-10-28 18:52:05 <sipa> so the only option becomes "hey, we're going to import your old data!"
690 2012-10-28 18:53:03 <sipa> i suppose there will be cases where the old database is still larger, but already imported
691 2012-10-28 18:53:11 <sipa> so you want to prevent asking over and over again
692 2012-10-28 18:53:41 <gmaxwell> yea, quite a few people have dropped in blk files downloaded without an index or just deleted their index at some point.
693 2012-10-28 18:53:51 <jgarzik> strangely enough....  I think UI experience should delete old data.  bitcoind should leave old data intact.
694 2012-10-28 18:53:56 <sipa> maybe don't ask anything if the new datafiles already exists
695 2012-10-28 18:54:17 <jgarzik> high level UI users should just rely on "database details" being wholly internal, and out of their knowledge.  "upgrading... [progress bar]" is sufficient.  just delete old data, for UI users.
696 2012-10-28 18:54:20 <sipa> a tools -> import data menu entry could exist
697 2012-10-28 18:54:26 <jgarzik> bitcoind users are more knowledgeable (in theory)
698 2012-10-28 18:54:34 <jgarzik> so do minimal upgrade, leaving files intact, for bitcoind
699 2012-10-28 18:55:29 <sipa> sounds reasonable
700 2012-10-28 18:55:31 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: I agree.
701 2012-10-28 18:56:03 <sipa> though the UI should still show a "we're upgrading your database, may take a while!" warning
702 2012-10-28 18:56:17 <jgarzik> yes
703 2012-10-28 18:56:21 <jgarzik> though ideally, a progress bar
704 2012-10-28 18:56:29 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: maybe even a "HOLD UP BUDDY IF YOU PROCEDE YOU CAN'T RUN OLDER VERSIONS" warning
705 2012-10-28 18:56:34 zveda has joined
706 2012-10-28 18:56:39 <gmaxwell> well, because it will take _an hour_ there ought to be a [uhh. quit, I'll do this later].
707 2012-10-28 18:56:46 <sipa> agree
708 2012-10-28 18:56:47 <gmaxwell> otherwise you'll get people killing it.
709 2012-10-28 18:56:50 <jgarzik> true
710 2012-10-28 18:56:59 <sipa> jgarzik: there is a progress bar, the normal IBD bar
711 2012-10-28 18:57:04 <jgarzik> ok
712 2012-10-28 18:57:06 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: do coders dream of sheep()?)
713 2012-10-28 18:57:11 <sipa> (i've even shown it at the conference!)
714 2012-10-28 18:57:14 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: well you can but it'll be a full chain download.
715 2012-10-28 18:57:30 <jrmithdobbs> i'm amazed at how many people are using -onlynet=tor or at least have tor connected nodes btw
716 2012-10-28 18:57:42 <jgarzik> so a dialog: "About to begin required database upgrade.  This may take > 1 hour.  Proceed?  OK / Cancel"
717 2012-10-28 18:57:43 <jgarzik> ?
718 2012-10-28 18:57:49 <jgarzik> then the normal IBD progress bar
719 2012-10-28 18:58:10 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: we need a ton more reachable onion nodes though
720 2012-10-28 18:58:30 <sipa> my vps gets more incoming onion connections than there are publicly reachable onion nodes
721 2012-10-28 18:58:41 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i can tell. one of mine has >128 and my laptop i just turned on to sync last night has 32 right now
722 2012-10-28 18:59:13 <jrmithdobbs> (both have onions, so doing what i can ;p)
723 2012-10-28 18:59:38 <gmaxwell> hm. we could make it much faster if we turned off ecdsa closer to old best block. bleh. I feel uneasy about that but it would be a big speedup.
724 2012-10-28 18:59:47 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: the laptop isn't using upnp or v6, all inbounds are to the onions
725 2012-10-28 18:59:50 <gmaxwell> (e.g. for the import from your own data)
726 2012-10-28 19:00:06 <jrmithdobbs> s/onions/onion/
727 2012-10-28 19:00:12 <sipa> gmaxwell: though about that yes, but that requires BDB code to see how far the old node has things verified already
728 2012-10-28 19:00:39 <sipa> as there is a chance he got stuck, and got fed an invalid chain while being stuck
729 2012-10-28 19:00:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: here is a hack: check the wallet.
730 2012-10-28 19:00:49 <sipa> gmaxwell: ha!
731 2012-10-28 19:01:09 <sipa> also, ewww!
732 2012-10-28 19:01:15 <jgarzik> hehehe
733 2012-10-28 19:01:16 <gmaxwell> hey, I said a hack.
734 2012-10-28 19:02:44 * jgarzik nyah nyah's that his SPV client does a better job of seeking peers than that other, java-based client ;p
735 2012-10-28 19:04:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: I only suggest such awfulness because it's probably 3/4 of the loadblock time.
736 2012-10-28 19:05:15 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
737 2012-10-28 19:05:41 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
738 2012-10-28 19:06:10 molecular has joined
739 2012-10-28 19:10:21 TD has joined
740 2012-10-28 19:10:21 TD has quit (Client Quit)
741 2012-10-28 19:11:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: another option would be to sync all the way with ecdsa disabled, then rewind N blocks (e.g. N=1000) and run again with the validation running.
742 2012-10-28 19:12:31 <gmaxwell> probably as much code as reading the old index to get the best block... but it would mean a big reorg would be widely tested.
743 2012-10-28 19:13:21 <sipa> meh for coding effort
744 2012-10-28 19:15:16 agricocb has joined
745 2012-10-28 19:16:34 egecko has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
746 2012-10-28 19:16:46 Internet13 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
747 2012-10-28 19:18:38 ovidiusoft has joined
748 2012-10-28 19:22:48 Diablo-D3 has joined
749 2012-10-28 19:23:52 AlexWaters has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
750 2012-10-28 19:24:29 Internet13 has joined
751 2012-10-28 19:24:53 zveda has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
752 2012-10-28 19:27:35 graingert_ has joined
753 2012-10-28 19:28:46 skeledrew has joined
754 2012-10-28 19:31:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: can you re-test #1943 ?
755 2012-10-28 19:33:08 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
756 2012-10-28 19:36:20 <Guest17788> are hidden nodes announced just by adding them to the list of .onions on the wiki?
757 2012-10-28 19:36:30 <sipa> they announce themself
758 2012-10-28 19:36:43 <sipa> at least if you use -externalip
759 2012-10-28 19:37:56 <Guest17788> sipa: thanks, so i can just set externalip to xxxxx.onion and be done with it? :)
760 2012-10-28 19:37:59 <Guest17788> excellent
761 2012-10-28 19:38:18 <sipa> Guest17788: read doc/Tor.txt
762 2012-10-28 19:38:36 <Guest17788> thanks
763 2012-10-28 19:39:41 Guest17788 has quit (Quit: leaving)
764 2012-10-28 19:40:00 djoot has joined
765 2012-10-28 19:40:01 djoot has quit (Changing host)
766 2012-10-28 19:40:01 djoot has joined
767 2012-10-28 19:42:11 * Zarutian was going to add that you also need to configure a hidden service to forward xxxx.onion connections to the listening port of the bitcoin node but sees that Guest17788 already left.
768 2012-10-28 19:42:28 graingert_ is now known as graingert
769 2012-10-28 19:44:42 <sipa> gmaxwell: first 193k blocks reindexed in 14m17s; in the following 14m17s, 2686 blocks
770 2012-10-28 19:45:07 <sipa> so some hack to prevent re-validating of scripts may well be worth it...
771 2012-10-28 19:50:40 <gmaxwell> Zarutian: the doc at least gives everything he needs to know.
772 2012-10-28 19:51:56 toffoo has joined
773 2012-10-28 19:55:18 graingert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
774 2012-10-28 19:55:54 <djoot> does bitcoind only announce one ip at a time? I'm guessing I only announce my .onion now with externalip...
775 2012-10-28 19:56:03 <D34TH> abe is all funky now
776 2012-10-28 19:56:04 <D34TH> D:
777 2012-10-28 19:56:55 <sipa> djoot: you can specify multiple -externalip's (or use it in combination with -discover)... it will use smart guessing to decide which ip to give to who
778 2012-10-28 19:57:07 <djoot> tyty
779 2012-10-28 19:59:34 RainbowDashh has joined
780 2012-10-28 20:01:04 <gmaxwell> Who runs weusecoins? it's linking directly to 0.7.0 (and we're still getting significant downloads of it)
781 2012-10-28 20:01:15 <sipa> justmoon, iirc
782 2012-10-28 20:07:14 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
783 2012-10-28 20:07:56 maaku has joined
784 2012-10-28 20:10:16 <Guest95155> deeplinking asshole
785 2012-10-28 20:11:11 Apexseals has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
786 2012-10-28 20:11:32 Apexseals has joined
787 2012-10-28 20:12:02 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: what's fixed in .7.1 anways?
788 2012-10-28 20:12:28 <sipa> wallet recovery was added, and some bugfixes
789 2012-10-28 20:12:50 <gmaxwell> It's not super duper urgent. Some anti DOS fixes too IIRC...
790 2012-10-28 20:22:40 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
791 2012-10-28 20:26:03 RainbowDashh has quit (Changing host)
792 2012-10-28 20:26:03 RainbowDashh has joined
793 2012-10-28 20:29:33 conman has joined
794 2012-10-28 20:39:48 paraipan has joined
795 2012-10-28 20:40:12 e0s_ has joined
796 2012-10-28 20:44:17 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
797 2012-10-28 20:44:17 e0s_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
798 2012-10-28 20:45:23 ThomasV has joined
799 2012-10-28 20:47:57 RainbowDashh has quit (Disconnected by services)
800 2012-10-28 20:48:31 RainbowD_ has joined
801 2012-10-28 20:51:09 RainbowD_ is now known as RainbowDashh
802 2012-10-28 20:53:49 Diapolo has joined
803 2012-10-28 20:56:54 <Diapolo> sipa: is there any maximum size for undofiles?
804 2012-10-28 20:57:05 <sipa> not really
805 2012-10-28 20:57:18 <Diapolo> normal block files is 128 MiB, but there is at least no separate limit in the code for undofiles it seems
806 2012-10-28 20:57:22 graingert has joined
807 2012-10-28 20:57:44 <sipa> no, undo data goes to rev0000N.dat for blocks whose data is in blk0000N.dat
808 2012-10-28 20:58:00 <sipa> so you can delete both at once, when pruning is implemented
809 2012-10-28 20:58:45 <Diapolo> I just need to know for an efficient pre-alloc alog on Windows, what the max size of a rev0000x.dat file can be.
810 2012-10-28 20:58:52 <Diapolo> algo not alog
811 2012-10-28 20:58:59 <sipa> why do you need to know?
812 2012-10-28 20:59:20 <Diapolo> because I can't alloc in chunks as that leads to a non-contingous file
813 2012-10-28 20:59:34 <sipa> *sigh*
814 2012-10-28 20:59:49 <Diapolo> the ideal block-file should be 1 fragment for optimum performance IMO
815 2012-10-28 20:59:52 <sipa> non-continuous files isn't a problem for random access
816 2012-10-28 21:00:05 <sipa> as long as there is no excessive fragmentations
817 2012-10-28 21:00:15 <Diapolo> right, but for linear reads at least it matters
818 2012-10-28 21:00:22 <jgarzik> undo is generated all at once, at connect-block time, yes?
819 2012-10-28 21:00:26 <jgarzik> seems unlikely to be fragmented
820 2012-10-28 21:00:30 <Diapolo> and I know how bad it was pre Ultraprune ^^
821 2012-10-28 21:00:30 <sipa> we never do linear reads
822 2012-10-28 21:00:40 <sipa> undo files are allocated in batches of 1 MiB
823 2012-10-28 21:00:44 <sipa> that should be plenty
824 2012-10-28 21:00:47 <jgarzik> indeed
825 2012-10-28 21:00:48 <Diapolo> in terms of number of fragments of the block files
826 2012-10-28 21:01:01 <sipa> and block files in batches of 16 MiB
827 2012-10-28 21:01:13 <sipa> at some point we may want to make that configurable if it seems sub-optimal
828 2012-10-28 21:01:24 <Diapolo> you seem to miss that Windows can't pre-alloc the way you do it ... at least it seems non-beneficial
829 2012-10-28 21:01:29 <sipa> but please, just implement AllocateFileRange
830 2012-10-28 21:01:48 <sipa> i don't care what dirty windows-specific tricks you use for that
831 2012-10-28 21:02:08 <sipa> but if there's a problem with the allocation policy, that should be fixed in general, but i don't expect problems
832 2012-10-28 21:02:54 <jgarzik> sipa: current AllocateFileRange doesn't pre-allocate actual blocks
833 2012-10-28 21:02:54 <sipa> and i'm very sure that writing zeroes has exactly the same effect as calling a specific prealloc function, except for the fact that nothing is actually written
834 2012-10-28 21:03:01 <sipa> jgarzik: huh?
835 2012-10-28 21:03:08 <jgarzik> sipa: it creates a sparse file
836 2012-10-28 21:03:18 <sipa> writing zeroes doesn't cause a sparse file?
837 2012-10-28 21:03:29 <Diapolo> your code has no errors and works, but I'm only telling it leads to fragmented files
838 2012-10-28 21:03:43 <jgarzik> sipa: oh, nevermind, it's fine.  I misread "1" as writing a byte, not a block.
839 2012-10-28 21:03:44 <sipa> Diapolo: how many fragments do you see?
840 2012-10-28 21:04:31 <jgarzik> not sure why AllocateFileRange() would cause problems on Windows
841 2012-10-28 21:04:37 <jgarzik> need numbers not "seems"
842 2012-10-28 21:04:41 <sipa> indeed
843 2012-10-28 21:05:30 <sipa> Diapolo: if you can show me the current code leads to excessive fragmentation (and not just more than 1 fragment) on a not-close-to-full filesystem om windows, we'll discuss improvements
844 2012-10-28 21:05:47 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: you really shouldn't be adding any preallocation complexity for undo files. I will NAK changes that do unless they come with concrete performance measurements that show must-be-visible speedups.
845 2012-10-28 21:06:14 <Diapolo> I have no original Ultaprune file anymore, as I was playing around with own code, but the files had > 1 fragment. Perhaps our goal is different here, I tried to create a patch that leads to a 1 fragment file, which should be optimal, what is your goal?
846 2012-10-28 21:06:47 <jgarzik> Diapolo: as long as the fragment size is sufficiently large, who cares?
847 2012-10-28 21:06:52 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: I said I'm playing around and I'm fine with NAKing changs to undo files :-P.
848 2012-10-28 21:07:01 ibno has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
849 2012-10-28 21:07:02 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: I don't care how many fragments the file has, unless its some insane number. We randomly access the files so small numbers will not result in performance differences.
850 2012-10-28 21:07:21 <sipa> Diapolo: also, in ultraprune, block files are almost never accessed at all
851 2012-10-28 21:07:28 AlexWaters has joined
852 2012-10-28 21:07:32 <jgarzik> undo files even more so
853 2012-10-28 21:07:36 <sipa> indeed
854 2012-10-28 21:08:03 <Diapolo> so, what is the purpose of the chunks then anyway?
855 2012-10-28 21:08:13 <sipa> to prevent *excessive* fragmentation
856 2012-10-28 21:08:21 <sipa> not to prevent all fragmentation
857 2012-10-28 21:09:08 <gmaxwell> fragmentation is primarily problematic if it makes the disk seek a lot because seeks are somewhat slow.  But if you're seeking once per several mbytes read then thats inconsequential.
858 2012-10-28 21:10:00 <gmaxwell> You'll end up with that regardless because of how the filesystem layout works, and going from once per several megabytes to never would only be a fraction of a percent improvement. .. and even then only for big sequential reads.
859 2012-10-28 21:10:37 vampireb_ has joined
860 2012-10-28 21:10:44 <Diapolo> I will collect some numbers... and just thought it would be nice to have contigous files. At least when doing the initial chain sync or when rescanning, no?
861 2012-10-28 21:11:31 <sipa> Diapolo: the current code shouldn't lead to more than a fragment per few megabytes (in the blk* files), which you will not notice at all
862 2012-10-28 21:11:44 <sipa> if it results in a fragment every few kilobytes, there is a problem
863 2012-10-28 21:12:43 <sipa> Diapolo: continuous files is not a holy grail, and fragmentation was not sent to us from hell
864 2012-10-28 21:12:51 <Diapolo> As I said I'll check the number of fragments with current master code tomorrow.
865 2012-10-28 21:12:55 <sipa> ok
866 2012-10-28 21:13:07 <jgarzik> hmmm
867 2012-10-28 21:13:20 * jgarzik wonders if "verack" is a hard must-be-second-P2P-message requirement
868 2012-10-28 21:13:31 * jgarzik is thinking "yes"
869 2012-10-28 21:13:33 <sipa> yes
870 2012-10-28 21:13:44 <sipa> before that, the protocol version number is not defined
871 2012-10-28 21:13:50 <sipa> well, it gets some initial value
872 2012-10-28 21:13:59 <Diapolo> sipa: what is causing most IO during a client startup? is there a good place where this is documented?
873 2012-10-28 21:14:47 <sipa> most IO is a bit vague
874 2012-10-28 21:15:25 <sipa> there is continuous writing (block files, leveldb logs), and random reading (leveldb)
875 2012-10-28 21:15:59 <djoot> how are resolvable addresses announced, in 'addr'-packets?
876 2012-10-28 21:16:04 <sipa> djoot: indeed
877 2012-10-28 21:16:11 <sipa> how do you mean 'resolvable' ?
878 2012-10-28 21:16:26 <sipa> only ipv4, ipv6 and onion addresses are sent in addr packets
879 2012-10-28 21:16:37 <jgarzik> djoot: the P2P network only knows network addresses, not DNS names.
880 2012-10-28 21:16:38 <sipa> (all encapsulated as ipv6 address)
881 2012-10-28 21:17:09 <djoot> ok, any easy way to see that my .onion is announced properly?
882 2012-10-28 21:17:16 <djoot> in wireshark or something
883 2012-10-28 21:17:32 <sipa> djoot: it will say so in debug.log
884 2012-10-28 21:18:02 <sipa> eg:
885 2012-10-28 21:18:08 <sipa> 10/15/12 12:31:37 send version message: version 60002, blocks=203384, us=kjy2eqzk4zwi5zd3.onion:8333, them=0.0.0.0:0, peer=127.0.0.1:33188
886 2012-10-28 21:18:57 <Cory> Every once in a while the scale of the charts on http://bitcoin.sipa.be/ seems to mess up. :(
887 2012-10-28 21:19:26 <djoot> ok, not seeing that, grepping for onion
888 2012-10-28 21:19:26 <sipa> Cory: hmm?
889 2012-10-28 21:20:15 <Luke-Jr> make[1]: ⁂ No rule to make target `build/build.h', needed by `build/version.o'.  Stop.
890 2012-10-28 21:20:22 <Luke-Jr> with -j200 or similar high numbers
891 2012-10-28 21:22:07 <Cory> sipa: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-2k.png doesn't seem normal, at least. And the daily growth rate charts look broken right now.
892 2012-10-28 21:22:32 <sipa> hmm, that looks bad indeed!
893 2012-10-28 21:22:52 <Cory> It's happened at least once before, too. It was corrected within a few days.
894 2012-10-28 21:23:16 <sipa> it used to happen when my bitcoind was down, for some reason
895 2012-10-28 21:23:21 <sipa> but it is running fine now
896 2012-10-28 21:24:22 <sipa> Cory: better?
897 2012-10-28 21:25:08 <Cory> Perfect!
898 2012-10-28 21:30:42 <jgarzik> rofl.  /me greps for 'FIXME' in picocoin.  Only results are from autotools-generated crappile.
899 2012-10-28 21:30:47 <jgarzik> not my code
900 2012-10-28 21:32:23 <sipa> you don't feel like contributing an autoconf-based build config for bitcoind?
901 2012-10-28 21:32:29 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
902 2012-10-28 21:38:21 eian has left ()
903 2012-10-28 21:46:02 Diapolo has left ()
904 2012-10-28 21:48:28 skeledrew has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
905 2012-10-28 21:49:27 skeledrew has joined
906 2012-10-28 21:54:24 Karmaon has quit (Quit: Ring timeout)
907 2012-10-28 21:54:33 Karmaon has joined
908 2012-10-28 21:55:30 Karmaon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
909 2012-10-28 21:55:41 Karmaon has joined
910 2012-10-28 21:55:42 Karmaon has quit (Changing host)
911 2012-10-28 21:55:42 Karmaon has joined
912 2012-10-28 21:57:02 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
913 2012-10-28 22:04:38 Gladamas has joined
914 2012-10-28 22:05:10 rdponticelli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
915 2012-10-28 22:06:08 <BlueMatt> another reason why I (still) believe pull-tester should merge and test instead of testing head, after the makefiles are fixed, every pull needs to be rebased to pass...
916 2012-10-28 22:08:24 rdponticelli has joined
917 2012-10-28 22:10:35 <sipa> wumpus: any suggestions/plans about Bitcoin-Qt auto-upgrading the data files?
918 2012-10-28 22:13:52 <sipa> wumpus: i suppose there must be some soft of popup that asks for permission to upgrade "Ok to continue, this may take a few hours, and will prevent you from running an old version" - "Cancel to quit if you want to do this later"
919 2012-10-28 22:14:19 <sipa> wumpus: optionally a third option "Import data from old install, but don't remove old data files"
920 2012-10-28 22:15:34 egecko has joined
921 2012-10-28 22:19:20 BCB has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
922 2012-10-28 22:23:16 OneEyed has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
923 2012-10-28 22:25:38 TD has joined
924 2012-10-28 22:35:34 erlinwa has joined
925 2012-10-28 22:35:58 OneEyed has joined
926 2012-10-28 22:36:12 <sipa> BlueMatt: testing your pullreq on gitian
927 2012-10-28 22:37:54 <BlueMatt> sipa: thanks
928 2012-10-28 22:41:20 <sipa> BlueMatt: works fine
929 2012-10-28 22:41:32 <erlinwa> Hello, I am trying to compile bitcoin with qtcreator under windows, according to readme-qt.rst I just need the qtgui_deps_1.zip (dependencies archive) however whenever I compile using this I get a bunch of  errors from the boost code http://pastebin.com/A9zFQ6fN (according to the .pro's defines BOOST_NO_EXCEPTIONS is enabled)
930 2012-10-28 22:41:40 <BlueMatt> sipa: nice, now to wait for pull-tester...
931 2012-10-28 22:42:44 <sipa> BlueMatt: i hope you get some better hosting for pull-tester soon :)
932 2012-10-28 22:42:58 d4de has joined
933 2012-10-28 22:42:58 d4de has quit (Changing host)
934 2012-10-28 22:42:58 d4de has joined
935 2012-10-28 22:43:08 <sipa> is it running right now? don't see naything on jenkins.bluematt.me
936 2012-10-28 22:43:11 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea...it can be a bit slow sometimes...
937 2012-10-28 22:43:17 <BlueMatt> http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/51600d0ab9ae88c7f2fac8423cf0a8bcc483f969/test.log
938 2012-10-28 22:43:31 <BlueMatt> jenkins.bluematt.me only shows the jenkins-run stuff, pull-tester is actually separate
939 2012-10-28 22:43:35 <sipa> ok
940 2012-10-28 22:44:14 <sipa> erlinwa: i'm afraid building on windows is hard, as no core developers really use windows
941 2012-10-28 22:44:21 <sipa> erlinwa: but patches are certainly welcome
942 2012-10-28 22:44:42 <BlueMatt> you could ask Diapolo when he comes around
943 2012-10-28 22:45:13 abrkn has joined
944 2012-10-28 22:45:22 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
945 2012-10-28 22:52:39 Zarutian has joined
946 2012-10-28 22:59:32 iliterate has joined
947 2012-10-28 23:02:33 da2ce7 has joined
948 2012-10-28 23:03:28 <Diablo-D3> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TiXUF9xbTo
949 2012-10-28 23:11:34 aq83 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
950 2012-10-28 23:13:05 servvs has joined
951 2012-10-28 23:13:08 aq83 has joined
952 2012-10-28 23:13:20 cande has joined
953 2012-10-28 23:14:24 B0g4r7_ has quit (Quit: B0g4r7_)
954 2012-10-28 23:17:12 runeks has joined
955 2012-10-28 23:17:51 runeks has quit (Quit: Leaving)
956 2012-10-28 23:23:38 aurigae has left ()
957 2012-10-28 23:23:49 spreelanka has joined
958 2012-10-28 23:25:16 vampireb_ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
959 2012-10-28 23:30:45 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
960 2012-10-28 23:31:45 B0g4r7_ has joined
961 2012-10-28 23:33:54 aq83 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
962 2012-10-28 23:36:54 rdponticelli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
963 2012-10-28 23:43:24 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
964 2012-10-28 23:45:53 bdcs has joined
965 2012-10-28 23:53:12 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
966 2012-10-28 23:54:11 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
967 2012-10-28 23:54:48 <bdcs>  I am having trouble using -loadblock=file, I downloaded the bootstrap.dat torrent and can't get bitcoind or, preferably, bitcoin-qt to load blocks from it. Is this an appropriate channel to get help on this recently developed feature?
968 2012-10-28 23:54:55 Guest95155 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
969 2012-10-28 23:55:30 Karmaon_ has joined
970 2012-10-28 23:55:32 <sipa> bdcs: sure
971 2012-10-28 23:55:46 <bdcs> okay, great
972 2012-10-28 23:55:49 <bdcs> in my home dir, I have bootstrap.dat and I type: "bitcoin-qt -loadblock=bootstrap.dat"
973 2012-10-28 23:55:52 <sipa> bdcs: if you put bootstrap.dat in the datadir it should be imported automatically, without any command line
974 2012-10-28 23:56:16 <bdcs> I have also tried putting the bootstrap.dat into ~/.bitcoin/ and running "bitcoin-qt" to no avail
975 2012-10-28 23:56:31 <sipa> how do you know it's not being imported?
976 2012-10-28 23:56:37 <bdcs> Bitcoin-Qt version v0.7.1.0-geb49457-beta
977 2012-10-28 23:56:49 <bdcs> If I turn off my internet, it doesn't load any blocks
978 2012-10-28 23:56:58 <bdcs> Is that not a good check?
979 2012-10-28 23:57:23 Karmaon has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
980 2012-10-28 23:57:45 <bdcs> Also my CPU/HD loads are low
981 2012-10-28 23:59:27 <bdcs> debug.log says nothing of "loadblock," except for "LoadBlockIndex()" messages