1 2012-11-02 00:00:05 <senseless> if we can get something like 20million USD total of asic pre-orders
2 2012-11-02 00:00:12 <senseless> you'd think we could get 100 people to donate 1K
3 2012-11-02 00:00:41 <senseless> (to register the .BIT TLD)
4 2012-11-02 00:00:48 <senseless> Sign me up
5 2012-11-02 00:02:03 <doublec> it's too late afaik
6 2012-11-02 00:02:04 <gmaxwell> senseless: if it had been planned right people could have bought the name-tokens to raise the money then expected to turn a profit reselling them, so not even a donation... an investment.
7 2012-11-02 00:02:20 <gmaxwell> Yea, too late now. Probably was too late when namecoin was announced.
8 2012-11-02 00:02:25 <doublec> yes
9 2012-11-02 00:02:37 <doublec> plus they were asking for reputable companies and organisations
10 2012-11-02 00:03:11 <gmaxwell> I mean it technically the windows was open but it would have required basically either getting a reputable company to front it, OR begining a legal battle to get the .bit non-profit or whatever able.
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14 2012-11-02 00:03:23 <senseless> I'd pay 1K for priority naming on a new chain with a real .bit TLD
15 2012-11-02 00:03:27 <senseless> im sure other people would as well
16 2012-11-02 00:03:51 <senseless> If it's real there's no issue about SSL certificates
17 2012-11-02 00:04:25 <MC1984> this .bit things is hte same chicken and egg problem that plagues all good ideas on the internet
18 2012-11-02 00:04:32 <forrestv> instead of .bit, they should have used dot-bit.org (or maybe something shorter). it doesn't really _need_ to be a TLD
19 2012-11-02 00:04:54 <MC1984> the only good way around it is to be the first to do a particular thing
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22 2012-11-02 00:07:48 <gmaxwell> forrestv: well that exists, but of course it mismatches the usage.
23 2012-11-02 00:08:49 <forrestv> gmaxwell, huh?
24 2012-11-02 00:10:16 <forrestv> not really sure what you mean by "mismatches the usage". they could have just made .dot-bit.org the standard namecoin extension and set up a resolver there
25 2012-11-02 00:10:34 <gmaxwell> forrestv: dot-bit.org resolves .bit names as subdomains. But .bit is the standard extension, thus 'mismatch'.
26 2012-11-02 00:11:14 <Luke-Jr> or convince some country to adopt their concept
27 2012-11-02 00:13:14 <senseless> It would need some cash to maintain it after creation (hardware, networks, etc). I doubt donations would be anywhere near sufficient even if it was on by default in the client. Is there anyway you could have the blockchain automatically send a percentage of all fees of a mined block to a specific address (for the organization?). So miners get 90% and the organization gets 10% (or whatever).
28 2012-11-02 00:13:39 <Luke-Jr> senseless: devcoin does that
29 2012-11-02 00:13:41 <JDuke128> why bit coin has 21.000.000 limit , is it because of the algorithm ? like long 64bit limit or its humans put this limit ?
30 2012-11-02 00:14:10 <Luke-Jr> JDuke128: that's the economic rule
31 2012-11-02 00:14:22 <Luke-Jr> Satoshi set it in place
32 2012-11-02 00:14:24 <JDuke128> and it will never change in future ?
33 2012-11-02 00:14:35 <Luke-Jr> correct
34 2012-11-02 00:14:39 maaku has joined
35 2012-11-02 00:14:59 <sipa> changing it requires convincing everyone to switch to a new client that has different rules
36 2012-11-02 00:15:06 <Luke-Jr> since it was fixed as-is from the start of Bitcoin, it is effectively unchangable since all Bitcoin holders invested under the understanding of it
37 2012-11-02 00:15:32 <Luke-Jr> IMO, anything less than a 100% unanimous agreement to change it would be breach of contract
38 2012-11-02 00:15:33 <senseless> Inflation Coin~
39 2012-11-02 00:15:38 <JDuke128> so that means in future 1bitcoin will be ~1000$ like
40 2012-11-02 00:15:41 <JDuke128> lol
41 2012-11-02 00:15:43 <sipa> JDuke128: maybe
42 2012-11-02 00:15:44 <Luke-Jr> JDuke128: 1 BTC*
43 2012-11-02 00:15:50 <JDuke128> 21 million is too limited for humans
44 2012-11-02 00:15:53 <Luke-Jr> JDuke128: "1 bitcoin" in such a case will refer to 1 uBTC
45 2012-11-02 00:15:58 <Luke-Jr> (or ideally, 1 TBC)
46 2012-11-02 00:16:13 <sipa> JDuke128: a BTC can be subdivided up to 8 decimals
47 2012-11-02 00:16:14 <JDuke128> or governments will ban :S
48 2012-11-02 00:16:26 <Luke-Jr> sipa: and further, if ever needed
49 2012-11-02 00:16:40 <Luke-Jr> social economic contract isn't voided by merely increasing divisibility
50 2012-11-02 00:16:47 <Luke-Jr> especially since that was claimed as a possibility from the start
51 2012-11-02 00:16:51 <senseless> If they ban virtual currencies every game with an auction house that has a currency which can be traded for real cash will also end up banned
52 2012-11-02 00:16:52 <sipa> agree
53 2012-11-02 00:17:04 <Luke-Jr> senseless: there is only one such game
54 2012-11-02 00:17:26 <senseless> there are a few, but there's still black market for all of them
55 2012-11-02 00:17:50 <Luke-Jr> senseless: I don't think a black market cares about new laws making it illegalâ¦
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58 2012-11-02 00:18:36 <senseless> But there would still be active trading of a virtual currency for real cash
59 2012-11-02 00:19:20 <JDuke128> if one bit coin address had no transaction within 3 years , it will be deleted ?
60 2012-11-02 00:19:25 <sipa> no
61 2012-11-02 00:19:56 <JDuke128> i formatted my pc , how can i get my old bitcoin address ?
62 2012-11-02 00:20:04 <sipa> have a backup of wallet.dat
63 2012-11-02 00:20:05 <JDuke128> wallet.dat has all ?
64 2012-11-02 00:20:10 <JDuke128> nice
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71 2012-11-02 00:34:27 <RBecker> ;;view
72 2012-11-02 00:34:27 <gribble> #11376 Wed Oct 31 15:18:43 2012 RBecker SELL 1.0 Linux/Windows Admin Work @ 0.93467 BTC (Contact RBecker on freenode for more info)
73 2012-11-02 00:36:27 <MC1984> are there any recent windows builds since ultraprune got merged?
74 2012-11-02 00:37:12 <gmaxwell> I thought sipa posted some?
75 2012-11-02 00:37:19 <gmaxwell> but I couldn't find them earlier. :(
76 2012-11-02 00:37:33 <sipa> MC1984: yes, see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119525.msg1297698#msg1297698
77 2012-11-02 00:37:54 <gmaxwell> well damn, I looked there and just missed it!
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79 2012-11-02 00:38:10 <sipa> though i should build some new ones
80 2012-11-02 00:38:32 <MC1984> thanks
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82 2012-11-02 00:38:48 <sipa> as soon as auto-import works, i'll try to do somewhat more regular builds
83 2012-11-02 00:39:22 <MC1984> auto import?
84 2012-11-02 00:40:28 <sipa> automatically import/upgrade your 0.7.x datadir
85 2012-11-02 00:41:06 <MC1984> convert to leveldb?
86 2012-11-02 00:41:14 <sipa> and convert to ultraprune
87 2012-11-02 00:41:27 <sipa> the database format is completely different
88 2012-11-02 00:42:18 <sipa> that's why we wanted to do both changes (leveldb and ultraprune) at once, so people wouldn't need to do a lengthy upgrade twice
89 2012-11-02 00:43:57 <MC1984> high potential for errors though?
90 2012-11-02 00:44:10 <sipa> it re-verifies everything
91 2012-11-02 00:44:19 <MC1984> be pretty terrible if everones chain got permanently mangled at once
92 2012-11-02 00:44:46 <sipa> or if you mean that ultraprune+leveldb causes a higher chance for introducing errors in the code... sure, that's why it needs a lot of testing
93 2012-11-02 00:45:23 * sipa -> zZzZ
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104 2012-11-02 01:13:14 <MC1984> heh i like the little warning
105 2012-11-02 01:13:33 <MC1984> seems like bootstrap.dat is working in this one
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180 2012-11-02 05:38:54 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: CBloomFilter imported and working... thanks for the jumpstart ;p
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206 2012-11-02 07:59:53 <xenland> Where is LOCK() originally located at in the Bitcoin source code?
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221 2012-11-02 09:06:51 <ThomasV> in which case does getrawtransaction return error: {"code":-5,"message":"No information available about transaction"} ?
222 2012-11-02 09:24:53 <sipa> when it does not know that transaction
223 2012-11-02 09:25:32 <sipa> in git head, that can happen if it was already completely spent
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234 2012-11-02 09:32:59 <ThomasV> sipa: I am using your ultraprune branch
235 2012-11-02 09:33:03 <robbak> Is there a working testnet block explorer? blockexplorer.com/testnet hasn't had any updates for weeks.
236 2012-11-02 09:33:23 bitcoinz has joined
237 2012-11-02 09:33:58 <sipa> ThomasV: my branch, or git head? it was merged and has had a lot of fixes since
238 2012-11-02 09:34:25 <ThomasV> sipa: oh ok, let me checkout head
239 2012-11-02 09:35:03 <ThomasV> sipa: so, head now uses levelDB?
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241 2012-11-02 09:37:07 <sipa> yes
242 2012-11-02 09:38:01 <ThomasV> sipa: is there a way I can configure it not to prune spent transactions?
243 2012-11-02 09:38:11 <sipa> it does not prune anything
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245 2012-11-02 09:38:23 <sipa> it just doesn't keep an index of every transaction around
246 2012-11-02 09:38:33 <ThomasV> so why would getrawtransaction return that error?
247 2012-11-02 09:38:54 <sipa> because it cannot find the transaction
248 2012-11-02 09:39:08 <sipa> i plan to add that as an optional index somewhere in the future, for debugging purposes
249 2012-11-02 09:39:36 <ThomasV> it cannot find it because it does not have an index for tx hashes?
250 2012-11-02 09:39:41 <sipa> indeed
251 2012-11-02 09:39:55 <ThomasV> hmm, when do you plan to add that?
252 2012-11-02 09:42:46 <ThomasV> sipa: ^
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255 2012-11-02 09:49:54 <sipa> ThomasV: sorry, too many todo's right now; can't promise anything
256 2012-11-02 09:50:30 <ThomasV> sipa: if you can give me a brief description of how to do it, I can try
257 2012-11-02 09:53:45 <sipa> ThomasV: you need a database (txdb.h) to store it (or reuse ccoins, but its caching infrastructure may make it harder), add transactions to it when connecting blocks, have a method to read a transaction from a given position on disk, and add that to GetTransaction
258 2012-11-02 09:54:12 <sipa> you'll probably want something like CDiskBlockPos (though the name becomes overloaded then)
259 2012-11-02 10:02:56 <sipa> ThomasV: just a question - you need to lookup by txid - where does that txid come from?
260 2012-11-02 10:03:12 <ThomasV> what do you mean?
261 2012-11-02 10:03:25 <sipa> you want to call getrawtransaction <txid>
262 2012-11-02 10:03:30 <ThomasV> yes
263 2012-11-02 10:03:31 <sipa> where do you get that txid?
264 2012-11-02 10:03:43 <ThomasV> it can be any txid
265 2012-11-02 10:03:51 <sipa> that's not an answer :)
266 2012-11-02 10:04:18 <ThomasV> are you asking why I need it?
267 2012-11-02 10:04:25 <sipa> because if you also know what block it belongs to, there is not really a problem
268 2012-11-02 10:06:19 <sipa> anyway, have to go
269 2012-11-02 10:06:20 <ThomasV> I need that for Electrum servers. I currently know what block the tx belongs to, although it would be nice if I could do it without knowing
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271 2012-11-02 10:06:44 <sipa> well, i dislike the idea of keeping ever-growing indexes in general
272 2012-11-02 10:07:55 <sipa> and i don't think bitcoin infrastructure should rely on those - especially things that are intended to be run by the public (the claim "you can run your own electrum server if you don't trust another" for example, becomes harder if the resources to do so keep growing)
273 2012-11-02 10:08:16 <sipa> you need an address-to-transaction index, even, i believe?
274 2012-11-02 10:08:31 <ThomasV> yes that too
275 2012-11-02 10:08:54 <ThomasV> I want to get rid of abe
276 2012-11-02 10:08:59 <sipa> is there any chance you can do with just one for non-spent transactions? that is enough for everyone to see their balance and create transactions, but not for seeing your history
277 2012-11-02 10:09:40 <sipa> but history is stored in wallets, or not?
278 2012-11-02 10:10:25 <ThomasV> history is stored in wallets, but it is also convenient to restore your wallet from seed
279 2012-11-02 10:10:58 <sipa> yes, the "the blockchain is your wallet" idea - it's attractive, but i don't like it because of scalability concerns
280 2012-11-02 10:11:23 <sipa> anyway, you do what you think is best for your userbase of course
281 2012-11-02 10:13:42 <ThomasV> I think we could adapt to a pruning server, if users accept that some of their transactions are not going to be recovered during a restore
282 2012-11-02 10:13:59 <ThomasV> but that's not a short term concern
283 2012-11-02 10:14:10 <ThomasV> for the moment my concern is abe's poor performance
284 2012-11-02 10:15:42 <sipa> the most interesting index imho, is a non-spent-transactions-address-to-txid, as it would allow fast sweeping of an address
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286 2012-11-02 10:18:53 <ThomasV> sipa: if I know the block number and tx_id, did you say I can get the raw tx already from RPC?
287 2012-11-02 10:19:08 <ThomasV> or do I still need to read from disk?
288 2012-11-02 10:19:23 <sipa> no, but that'd be very easy to implement (it would mean reading the entire block from disk, though)
289 2012-11-02 10:19:37 <ThomasV> yes, that's what abe already does
290 2012-11-02 10:20:17 <sipa> anyway, have to go
291 2012-11-02 10:20:20 <ThomasV> maybe I'll stick with that for the moment
292 2012-11-02 10:20:25 <ThomasV> thanks, see you
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299 2012-11-02 10:58:50 <robbak> ReQ - Is there a working testnet block explorer? blockexplorer.com/testnet hasn't had any updates for weeks.
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327 2012-11-02 13:04:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: ThomasV will also need an address to txid index, I expect that could be changed to an address -> {height,txid} index and then he wouldnt need the txid index anymore.
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329 2012-11-02 13:10:13 <sipa> gmaxwell: if he wants to send tx + merkle path for SPV, he needs the entire block the transaction is contained in anyway
330 2012-11-02 13:10:21 <sipa> so a txid -> diskpos index isn't very useful
331 2012-11-02 13:11:09 <gmaxwell> Just so.
332 2012-11-02 13:11:32 <gmaxwell> robbak: What do you need it for? You know you can do many explorer like things from bitcoin itself, right?
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335 2012-11-02 13:24:58 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: what would be the benefit of having height and txid in the same index?
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339 2012-11-02 13:35:43 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: because if you're only ever fetching the transaction id with the height at the same time you don't need a seperate index of txids.
340 2012-11-02 13:36:57 <ThomasV> I understand, but that does not answer my question. what do we gain from it? performance?
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343 2012-11-02 13:39:32 <sipa> well, i'm worried about needing to implement 37 different indexes, because some people require whole-history ones, some need only unspent ones, some need to be address based, some need txid-based, some need to find just a txout, some need entire transactions, some need the entire block it's in, and i somehow want a minimum cover :)
344 2012-11-02 13:41:29 <ThomasV> sure, but if that's your concern, you should be sensitive to the fact that a address->{height, txid} index is much more limited in what it can do than two indexes. I would go for the more universal design
345 2012-11-02 13:42:35 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: what do we gain from it? half the disk space and still being able to do the sorts of lookups you need.
346 2012-11-02 13:43:38 <sipa> some concern is for example a txid->diskpos index has 32-byte keys, and 4-5 byte values... that is a relative waste
347 2012-11-02 13:43:43 <ThomasV> why would that be half the diskspace?
348 2012-11-02 13:43:56 <sipa> you could add for example height to the value without getting any significant relative increase of size
349 2012-11-02 13:44:23 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: you'd have redundancy in it, it would actually waste space
350 2012-11-02 13:44:26 <sipa> as a separate database for the heights would need all those 32-byte keys again, with only 3-byte values
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352 2012-11-02 13:46:35 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: just because addr->txid and txid->block is two indexes with similar key sizes.
353 2012-11-02 13:48:21 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: addr->txid will have many entries with different addresses having the same txid, so for all those entries you will repeat the height
354 2012-11-02 13:49:52 <sipa> depends whether it's all-history or just unspent
355 2012-11-02 13:50:00 <ThomasV> true
356 2012-11-02 13:50:31 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: repeating the height is a very small amount of data compared to another index. (the size of an additional key is greater than the key itself)
357 2012-11-02 13:51:07 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: sure. in fact abe uses an internal id instead og the hash
358 2012-11-02 13:51:14 <ThomasV> *of*
359 2012-11-02 13:51:45 <ThomasV> but I agree that if you use the hash as key, then the key takes most of the space
360 2012-11-02 13:51:46 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: though I agree, having a txid->block index is more general. My comment was just related to what should be possible for your needs.
361 2012-11-02 13:52:54 <ThomasV> for my needs it's perfectly fine to have address-> block, txid. I was just suggesting to go for the most general design
362 2012-11-02 13:53:08 <sipa> right - if you expect many txid based indexes, you could opt for having one txid->txnumber index, and have all other indexes be txnumber based
363 2012-11-02 13:54:50 <gmaxwell> or really address-> block to be honest, since you can always just scan the block.
364 2012-11-02 13:55:06 <ThomasV> heh,I was just gonna say that :)
365 2012-11-02 13:55:59 <sipa> and if you're going to send merkle paths, you need to scan the entire block
366 2012-11-02 13:56:10 <sipa> ... unless we'd store the merkle tree for blocks
367 2012-11-02 13:56:15 <sipa> which in your case may be worth it
368 2012-11-02 13:56:44 <ThomasV> well, I think it may even be worth storing merkle paths for txids, so that you don't need to rehash them
369 2012-11-02 13:57:21 <ThomasV> for an electrum server, space is not really a concern
370 2012-11-02 13:57:21 <gmaxwell> Not useful for someone doing efficient merkle tree transmission.
371 2012-11-02 13:57:49 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: it is something of a concern if "you can run your own instead of trusting someone else" isn't to be pretext.
372 2012-11-02 13:57:56 <sipa> merkle paths will frequently be larger than the txs
373 2012-11-02 13:58:29 <sipa> you really want those deduplicated by storing the per-block tree
374 2012-11-02 13:58:36 <ThomasV> sipa: they will only frow logarithmically with block size
375 2012-11-02 13:58:46 <MC1984> good evening gentlemen
376 2012-11-02 13:58:48 <gmaxwell> assuming users aren't constantly nuking their wallets you should only read a single txn ~ once, and most never.
377 2012-11-02 13:58:49 <ThomasV> *grow*
378 2012-11-02 13:59:03 <MC1984> i mean afternoon
379 2012-11-02 13:59:08 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: true
380 2012-11-02 13:59:40 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: they're _already_ larger than the txn in many cases.
381 2012-11-02 14:00:10 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: yes, but as I said, I don't consider space storage to be a concern
382 2012-11-02 14:00:53 <ThomasV> "you can run your own" is not a pretext
383 2012-11-02 14:01:35 <ThomasV> what I mean by that is that users are not dependent from a company or single entity
384 2012-11-02 14:01:38 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: uh, so you'd be willing to make the storage 2-4x larger. So 200 GBytes/year new storage needed at full rates? Thats pretty inhibiting to running your own, i think.
385 2012-11-02 14:02:01 <gmaxwell> It also will discourage people with honest and altruistic motivations from running a server.
386 2012-11-02 14:02:45 <ThomasV> heh, I believe there will be people with commercial motivations :)
387 2012-11-02 14:03:17 <sipa> i'm sure we can right now build an electrum-like server that does what you need and has lower cpu/mem/disk requirements than a 0.7.1 full node
388 2012-11-02 14:03:25 <sipa> with enough engineering effort
389 2012-11-02 14:03:36 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
390 2012-11-02 14:03:37 <gmaxwell> Hope that they're simply charging for usage rather than getting paid to block transactions and spy on their users. :(
391 2012-11-02 14:04:13 <jeremias> ThomasV: are the electrum servers making money right now?
392 2012-11-02 14:04:15 <gmaxwell> sipa: I agree.
393 2012-11-02 14:04:16 <jeremias> with fees or something?
394 2012-11-02 14:04:27 <jeremias> eg. is there a business model for running an electrum server?
395 2012-11-02 14:04:27 <ThomasV> jeremias: no, except through donations
396 2012-11-02 14:04:58 <jeremias> ok
397 2012-11-02 14:05:22 <gmaxwell> jeremias: I don't see how fees could be sticky. A electrum client could happily get free access, but send txns out via another path.
398 2012-11-02 14:05:24 <ThomasV> but it would be possible to add user authentication, and have a paying model
399 2012-11-02 14:05:56 <jeremias> gmaxwell: most people would probably pay out the fees for laziness
400 2012-11-02 14:06:08 <jeremias> not everyone optimizes their money usage to full extent
401 2012-11-02 14:06:19 <gmaxwell> jeremias: until someone forks the software and ships a nofeeclient and it becomes the most popular. ::shrugs::
402 2012-11-02 14:06:32 <jeremias> well, you are always controlling the server
403 2012-11-02 14:06:46 <jeremias> if you are not making enough money, you take the server down
404 2012-11-02 14:06:46 <gmaxwell> jeremias: Huh? That has nothing to do with it.
405 2012-11-02 14:06:49 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: I don't think it makes sense to charge fees per transaction. fees would be charged for requests to the database
406 2012-11-02 14:06:50 <gmaxwell> Well sure.
407 2012-11-02 14:06:53 <jeremias> or add authentication
408 2012-11-02 14:07:20 <ThomasV> yes, through authentication
409 2012-11-02 14:07:50 <ThomasV> but as I said, no server is doing that at the moment
410 2012-11-02 14:09:01 <ThomasV> as a user, I think I would trust more a server with paying access than an altruistic one
411 2012-11-02 14:09:21 <ThomasV> but that's a personal opinion
412 2012-11-02 14:09:21 <jeremias> same here
413 2012-11-02 14:09:41 <ThomasV> and I guess the price could be less than miners fees
414 2012-11-02 14:09:59 <gmaxwell> people don't generally reason well about that sort of thing. "I've not _heard_ of death and distruction yet from untrusted servers"
415 2012-11-02 14:10:45 <sipa> distruction? like removing stuff from a truck? </pedantry>
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417 2012-11-02 14:11:11 <gavinandresen> no, that is distrucking, not distruction
418 2012-11-02 14:11:36 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: no, but since my free server has limited resources, I impose a limit on my sql requests, so clients that have vaynert-style histories will get an error if they try to use my server
419 2012-11-02 14:11:37 <gavinandresen> (not to be confused with distraction, which is when you lose your footing and fall on your ass)
420 2012-11-02 14:11:54 <gmaxwell> ahah
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422 2012-11-02 14:13:10 <ThomasV> the same server could even provide a free service and a paying one, depending on usage
423 2012-11-02 14:14:37 <jeremias> or some freemium model
424 2012-11-02 14:14:49 <jeremias> but you should have a business model for developing electrum as well
425 2012-11-02 14:14:54 <jeremias> make it closed source, lol
426 2012-11-02 14:15:18 <jeremias> or make the server closed source, and the client is open
427 2012-11-02 14:15:30 <ThomasV> since pruning has the same effect, I guess that a server that prunes spent outputs could be free or cheaper than a server providing full histories
428 2012-11-02 14:15:34 <jeremias> and sell the server to those who want to make money running an electrum server
429 2012-11-02 14:16:03 <jeremias> or provide open source server which has no business model, and charge for the server which makes you money
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431 2012-11-02 14:18:26 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: please don't conflate pruning with only having indexes to unspent txouts.
432 2012-11-02 14:18:50 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: indeed
433 2012-11-02 14:19:05 <gmaxwell> In the context of electrum the latter could also be the former... but generall they're not the same thing. :)
434 2012-11-02 14:19:15 <gmaxwell> yyy yyy y darnit.
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436 2012-11-02 14:19:49 <sipa> actually, head right now does not even have an index to unspent txouts
437 2012-11-02 14:20:35 <ThomasV> sipa: so why does getrawtransaction fail in some cases?
438 2012-11-02 14:25:18 <sipa> ThomasV: the only thing we have is a blkid->diskpos index, and txid->utxo database; but as the utxo data contains the height, you can find which block unspent transactions are in; that's a hack really
439 2012-11-02 14:26:54 <ThomasV> ok :)
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452 2012-11-02 15:25:02 <an3k> is that a bug in the bitcoin-qt client? i set "pay transaction fee" to 0.00000000 BTC and when i want to send all of my btc to an address i get a popup saying "The total exceeds your balance when the 0.0015 BTC transaction fee is included."
453 2012-11-02 15:27:22 <ThomasV> an3k: I think that bitcoin-qt does not allow you to set a zero fee
454 2012-11-02 15:27:28 <ThomasV> (not sure though)
455 2012-11-02 15:28:55 <gmaxwell> an3k: It's not a bug. Your transaction looks too much like a DOS attack by the objective criteria used by most of the network.
456 2012-11-02 15:29:24 <an3k> then the client or at least the description is wrong. it says "Optional transaction fee ..."
457 2012-11-02 15:29:26 <sipa> an3k: the setting is your voluntary fee per kilobyte; regardless, some transactions require a fee to prevent them from being considered spam by the network
458 2012-11-02 15:29:39 <gmaxwell> an3k: because of that your peers wouldn't relay or mine it unless it includes a small fee (0.0005 BTC/kb). Your node knows this, so instead of creating a transaction which will just get stuck, it lets your abort or asks you if it can add a fee.
459 2012-11-02 15:29:40 <an3k> oh, ok. thanks sipa
460 2012-11-02 15:30:09 <an3k> and gmaxwell ;)
461 2012-11-02 15:30:21 <gmaxwell> an3k: if you recently recieved coins and wait a bit you may be able to send without a fee.
462 2012-11-02 15:31:24 <gmaxwell> (a bit being about 144/input_btc_value confirmations)
463 2012-11-02 15:32:08 <gmaxwell> e.g. 1 bitcoin waits 1 day. 0.1 bitcoin waits 10 days. Keeping a standing balance in your wallet generally enables it to avoid respending recently recieved coins.
464 2012-11-02 15:37:05 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: oh I see, that's an evil plan to incentivize hoarding :)
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466 2012-11-02 15:38:16 <sipa> what fee policy does electrum use?
467 2012-11-02 15:38:19 <aurigae> anybody here who can make an importable command from this line for PSQL??
468 2012-11-02 15:38:19 <aurigae> ('statement', "insert into shares (rem_host, username, our_result, upstream_result, reason, solution) values ({Q(remoteHost)}, {username}, {YN(not(rejectReason))}, {YN(upstreamResult)}, {rejectReason}, decode({solution}, 'hex'))")
469 2012-11-02 15:39:17 <aurigae> or some other useful information to get this up as PSQ table
470 2012-11-02 15:39:24 <ThomasV> sipa: the user can set whatever fee they want, but since the tx is forwarded to a bitcoind, it may be rejected
471 2012-11-02 15:39:34 <aurigae> PSQL*
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474 2012-11-02 15:40:34 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: nah, it's just an unfortunate compromise ... about the only thing we can use to distinguish a dos attack from normal usage is that dos attacks tend to rapidly recirculate coins. So basically we use coin immobility as priority, since immobility is something attackers lack for sure.
475 2012-11-02 15:41:01 <TD> unfortunate indeed
476 2012-11-02 15:41:05 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: sure, I was just kidding
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479 2012-11-02 15:42:38 <gmaxwell> TD: ::shrugs:: absent it, one dweeb running while true ; do bitcoind sendtoaddress `bitcoind getnewaddress` 0.01 ; done makes free transactions useless and adds tons of bloat to the chain, network traffic, etc.
480 2012-11-02 15:42:52 <gmaxwell> Better alternatives welcome!
481 2012-11-02 15:42:55 <TD> yeah. i still see DoS as a prioritization problem
482 2012-11-02 15:43:09 <TD> that is, you have fixed CPU and block capacity, now order transactions by size, fee, coin age, etc
483 2012-11-02 15:43:16 <TD> throw out any that don't fit into the available capacity
484 2012-11-02 15:43:27 <TD> so as the network grows and becomes more powerful the thresholds go down automatically
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486 2012-11-02 15:44:15 <gmaxwell> TD: you can only do that sort after already consuming the bandwidth. This would also maximally spend our 'startup capital' by causing the network to have maximum load right away.
487 2012-11-02 15:44:48 <TD> anyone can send you tx messages that you have to download anyway, so bandwidth is already a resource easily consumed by DoS attackers
488 2012-11-02 15:44:53 <TD> (or indeed block messages)
489 2012-11-02 15:45:10 <gmaxwell> TD: thats O(1) for the attacker. He has to spend one unit of bandwidth for one unit consumed.
490 2012-11-02 15:45:12 <TD> well, it'd cause the network to have max load during DoS attacks. but if the attack doesn't achieve denial, then the attackers should eventually get bored and go away
491 2012-11-02 15:45:23 <gmaxwell> A relayed transaction has a factor of tens of thousand gain.
492 2012-11-02 15:45:40 <gmaxwell> TD: why would they get bored it's free and a one liner shell script.
493 2012-11-02 15:46:25 <TD> they just do, trust me. dealing with various kinds of attack (dos and spam) is my job. if the attack has no effect then it goes away. i've never seen an attack that just pointlessly wastes the attackers resources for no outcome
494 2012-11-02 15:46:29 <gmaxwell> And, it would achieve denial fineâ it would make sure bitcoin transactions were ~never free.
495 2012-11-02 15:46:48 <TD> nope, the dos txns would get sorted lower than the regular free transactions because of input age
496 2012-11-02 15:46:50 <TD> same as today
497 2012-11-02 15:46:58 <TD> it's not a big change from what we do, just minus the arbitrary hard-coded magic numbers
498 2012-11-02 15:47:18 <TD> needs node operators to set some basic config params, but they already are requesting them anyway (like bandwidth caps)
499 2012-11-02 15:47:23 <gmaxwell> TD: I'll personally attack it then. Argument settled.
500 2012-11-02 15:47:30 <gmaxwell> :P
501 2012-11-02 15:47:45 <TD> well, you'll get old and die eventually :)
502 2012-11-02 15:47:54 <gmaxwell> TD: says you! :P
503 2012-11-02 15:47:56 <TD> hah
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505 2012-11-02 15:48:52 <aurigae> i hae formulated my question here again, may somebody got the time and knowledge to hel out^^ https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=122075.msg1313122#msg1313122
506 2012-11-02 15:49:36 <gmaxwell> td: your work attacks still aren't things that give the attacker potentially factors of tens of thousands amplification, or result in eternal storage.
507 2012-11-02 15:50:07 <gmaxwell> TD: if everything got realyed we would expect an ultra low transaction 'anonymous' file transfer tool to show up pretty much right away.
508 2012-11-02 15:51:10 <gmaxwell> But you're right, regardless of the threshold we should facilitate the prioritization stuff more.
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519 2012-11-02 16:29:07 <jgarzik> ohhh
520 2012-11-02 16:29:15 <jgarzik> have we invented a bitcoin-funded transit network?
521 2012-11-02 16:29:16 <jgarzik> :)
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540 2012-11-02 17:38:12 <Matt_von_Mises> Is the levelDB being used for the new block-chain storage? And Berkeley will still be used for wallet files?
541 2012-11-02 17:39:28 <Matt_von_Mises> I was looking at levelDB and it doesn't look like it implements ACID transactions, so how does bitcoin not protect against data corruption?
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546 2012-11-02 17:50:10 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: it doesn't have ACID transactions no, but it has batch writes that are guaranteed to either be completed entirely, or not at all
547 2012-11-02 17:50:52 <sipa> so the only difference is really that if you read while building a batch commit, you won't read the uncommitted data but the old data
548 2012-11-02 17:51:00 <sipa> so if you don't do that, you're fine
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551 2012-11-02 17:53:58 <sipa> you basically get everything you need, as long as you do the transaction isolation part yourself, which is quite easy in practice
552 2012-11-02 17:55:04 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: That sounds all good then.
553 2012-11-02 17:57:36 <D34TH> i think blockchain.info derped on percentages
554 2012-11-02 17:57:41 <D34TH> Network Propagation
555 2012-11-02 17:57:42 <D34TH> 207% - 1130 Nodes
556 2012-11-02 17:57:43 <D34TH> lol
557 2012-11-02 17:57:57 <Matt_von_Mises> It seems that with my bitcoin code I'm basically implementing my own version of levelDB.
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561 2012-11-02 18:13:48 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: why? if you're going for the flexibility of being able to abstract the crypto library, why not the db library?
562 2012-11-02 18:14:59 <jgarzik> Matt_von_Mises: btw, some competition :) https://github.com/jgarzik/picocoin
563 2012-11-02 18:15:41 Descry has quit (Quit: Leaving)
564 2012-11-02 18:15:43 * jgarzik wound up implementing his own leveldb in python, too: https://github.com/jgarzik/pagedb
565 2012-11-02 18:15:53 <D34TH> time to pull picocoin and see what its all aboot
566 2012-11-02 18:16:01 <D34TH> crap
567 2012-11-02 18:16:02 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: I was looking for libraries that could do what I wanted. I didn't find any at the time (I didn't want a relational database for sure) so I've created my own code. Luckily it's not too difficult and it's an interesting learning experience. Also by implementing it myself it's all contained within my code and I can optimise it for my purposes. Also my code is powerful and low level and can be reused whenever I need to do output operations safe
568 2012-11-02 18:16:05 <D34TH> no windows make
569 2012-11-02 18:16:08 <jgarzik> D34TH: it's a big lib of nothing at the moment :)
570 2012-11-02 18:16:26 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: I've only just looked at levelDB.
571 2012-11-02 18:16:26 <jgarzik> D34TH: eventually an SPV client. Definitely Linux-only right now, too.
572 2012-11-02 18:16:43 <D34TH> jgarzik, ill make it work ish
573 2012-11-02 18:17:58 <Matt_von_Mises> jgarzik: Always nice to have some competition.
574 2012-11-02 18:20:40 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: alternatives could be sqlite, kyotocabinet, ...
575 2012-11-02 18:21:28 <jouke> I heard there was some sort of a checkpoint in the client. What does it do?
576 2012-11-02 18:21:56 <sipa> signature checking is disabled before block 193000
577 2012-11-02 18:22:07 <sipa> and its hash is fixed by the software
578 2012-11-02 18:22:24 <Matt_von_Mises> "pagedb is a lightweight key/value database library." Well, my code allows you to more than just associative arrays or whatever. My code allows you to safely process various output operations (overwrites, appendages, renames, deletions, replace entire files and truncate files) in a recoverable manner. So really it's more low-level and powerful than a database library.
579 2012-11-02 18:22:44 <jouke> So when I download the bootstrap.dat it doesn't need to verify everything again?
580 2012-11-02 18:23:26 <gmaxwell> jouke: It verfies most things... just not the signatures.
581 2012-11-02 18:24:53 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: hope you enjoyed writing all that
582 2012-11-02 18:25:00 <gmaxwell> jouke: Otherwise a malicious bootstrap.dat could make you believe an invalid chain. The signature data is all pastâ e.g. you don't need it to validate future transactionsâ and in general isnt needed to ensure the non-inflationary property.
583 2012-11-02 18:25:57 <sipa> gmaxwell: btw, some time to give reindex your worst once more?
584 2012-11-02 18:27:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: sure, I mentioned that it was on longer exploding after that last change.. ... I need to remember to run valgrind more often and not just the first time I test something, at least when it's being changed! :P
585 2012-11-02 18:27:27 <jgarzik> kyotocabinet is really quite nice
586 2012-11-02 18:28:08 <jgarzik> Matt_von_Mises: oh pagedb is definitely more a toy than serious choice. it's written in python, for pete's sake! :)
587 2012-11-02 18:28:59 <sipa> ok, who is pete?
588 2012-11-02 18:29:09 <jgarzik> sipa: Satoshi's real name
589 2012-11-02 18:29:15 <sipa> sssssh!
590 2012-11-02 18:29:34 <sipa> Pete Nakamote, lead us!
591 2012-11-02 18:31:21 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: any chance you could run picocoin's "make check" under valgrind, on BE?
592 2012-11-02 18:31:35 Zarutian has joined
593 2012-11-02 18:33:30 <gmaxwell> "Pete Nakamote, You're the only"
594 2012-11-02 18:33:45 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: sure.
595 2012-11-02 18:35:52 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: I've written most of it in less than a week. All that is needed is to write to a log backup file of all the information to revert changes, and then go through the operations. If there is a failure the code can simply go through the log file to restore the data. It's actually simple when you think about it, though it will need a lot of testing. And it was interesting to write it. I haven't implemented the truncation yet which I will do now.
596 2012-11-02 18:36:12 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: thanks
597 2012-11-02 18:36:26 * jgarzik needs to figure out how to disambiguate valgrind results through a fork(2)
598 2012-11-02 18:36:58 <gmaxwell> All 10 tests passed
599 2012-11-02 18:36:58 <Matt_von_Mises> jgarzik: I once thought it was a good idea to write a game in python⦠bad idea. Python is rubbish for anything more than basic scripts. It's no good for writing applications in my experience.
600 2012-11-02 18:37:04 <jgarzik> Matt_von_Mises: do you use O_DIRECT? do you look at st_blksize?
601 2012-11-02 18:37:06 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: wasn't watching for leaks.
602 2012-11-02 18:37:49 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: you should be able to run the test executables directly. 'block' and 'blkdb' probably exercise the most lib machinery.
603 2012-11-02 18:38:40 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: ? sure.
604 2012-11-02 18:39:04 toffoo has joined
605 2012-11-02 18:39:05 <gmaxwell> they all pass under valgrind with no errors, but the default doesn't throw an error code for leaked memory iirc.
606 2012-11-02 18:39:22 <gmaxwell> (you're aware you can do 'make check TESTS_ENVIRONMENT=valgrind' right?)
607 2012-11-02 18:41:16 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: neat, wasn't aware of that
608 2012-11-02 18:41:20 <Matt_von_Mises> jgarzik: "do you use O_DIRECT? Â do you look at st_blksize?". Is that important? For optimisation purposes that can be done later. At the moment the code mostly uses the standard library (with POSIX only where needed) and flushes data to the disk.
609 2012-11-02 18:41:28 <Diablo-D3> https://www.youtube.com/redirect?q=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2FPy0DyK&session_token=IzluJfXnllJjLE2Q1-kmCf94yV98MTM1MTk2NzI3MEAxMzUxODgwODcw
610 2012-11-02 18:41:32 <jgarzik> Matt_von_Mises: it is important for avoiding basic corruption
611 2012-11-02 18:41:33 <Diablo-D3> and now we all take a break.
612 2012-11-02 18:41:57 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: if you try to do a write intent log you _must_ have some kind of barrier to make sure the log makes it to disk before your changes.
613 2012-11-02 18:42:11 <gmaxwell> That stuff is all really painful to test.
614 2012-11-02 18:42:15 <jgarzik> Matt_von_Mises: BDB pays particular attention to performing I/O on block and sector boundaries, because that is the level of atomicity provided by the hard drive.
615 2012-11-02 18:42:25 <Matt_von_Mises> Doesn't fflush() guarantee data is written?
616 2012-11-02 18:42:30 <jgarzik> no
617 2012-11-02 18:42:50 <Matt_von_Mises> Well why has no place ever said that ever?
618 2012-11-02 18:43:04 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: that just forces the userspace buffer in libc to flush to the OS
619 2012-11-02 18:43:14 <jgarzik> " For output streams, fflush() forces a write of all user-space buffered
620 2012-11-02 18:43:14 <jgarzik> data for the given output or update stream via the stream's underlying
621 2012-11-02 18:43:14 <jgarzik> write function."
622 2012-11-02 18:43:17 <jgarzik> it is well documented
623 2012-11-02 18:43:24 <jgarzik> fflush flushes the internal buffer to the OS
624 2012-11-02 18:43:50 <jgarzik> fsync(fileno(FILE*)) or fdatasync(fileno(FILE*)) will flush the underlying data, post-fflush(3)
625 2012-11-02 18:43:52 <jgarzik> HOWEVER
626 2012-11-02 18:44:09 <Matt_von_Mises> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=67240
627 2012-11-02 18:44:54 <Matt_von_Mises> fsync⦠however?
628 2012-11-02 18:44:58 <jgarzik> you must be aware of how the underlying filesystem and hard drive behave... fdatasync() across a block boundary may cause a non-atomic read-modify-write cycle, and in very rare cases, may corrupt old data
629 2012-11-02 18:45:31 <sipa> i don't think even leveldb cares about that
630 2012-11-02 18:45:37 <jgarzik> Matt_von_Mises: short version: call fsync() after fflush(). that gets you most of the way there.
631 2012-11-02 18:45:52 <sipa> (though it checksums its data, so corruption would be harder)
632 2012-11-02 18:46:08 daybyter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
633 2012-11-02 18:46:15 <jgarzik> sipa: yeah, side consequence of checksumming + Google's use case means they throw away one server in favor of another, worst case
634 2012-11-02 18:46:18 <D34TH> jgarzik, compiling libevent what a PITA
635 2012-11-02 18:47:02 <jgarzik> BDB and all the big database engines (ORacle, sybase, db2, ...) pay very close attention to block and sector boundaries, and track very closely what the OS has flushed
636 2012-11-02 18:47:03 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
637 2012-11-02 18:47:18 <Matt_von_Mises> jgarzik: I will just use fsync for now but I will make a note to come back to this and ask for some advice on how to remove the risk of data corruption as far as possible.
638 2012-11-02 18:47:20 <jgarzik> the bigger database engines practically implement their own writeback and flushing engines
639 2012-11-02 18:47:42 <jgarzik> but that's overkill for a small key/value database
640 2012-11-02 18:47:48 <Matt_von_Mises> I do think the documentation for fflush is misleading, it always says it saves the data to disk and returns on error. What am I supposed to assume?
641 2012-11-02 18:48:25 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: it's somewhat misleading if you're unfamiliar with the terminology, i guess
642 2012-11-02 18:48:28 <jgarzik> Matt_von_Mises: <shrug> I guess your fflush docs differ from the standard Linux man-pages project
643 2012-11-02 18:48:33 <jgarzik> ?
644 2012-11-02 18:48:48 <sipa> it does only mention flushing userspace data, and sending it to the underlying write function
645 2012-11-02 18:49:24 <jgarzik> NOTES
646 2012-11-02 18:49:24 <jgarzik> Note that fflush() only flushes the user space buffers provided by the
647 2012-11-02 18:49:24 <jgarzik> C library. To ensure that the data is physically stored on disk the
648 2012-11-02 18:49:24 <jgarzik> kernel buffers must be flushed too, for example, with sync(2) or
649 2012-11-02 18:49:24 <jgarzik> fsync(2).
650 2012-11-02 18:50:00 <sipa> oh, i even missed that
651 2012-11-02 18:50:27 <Matt_von_Mises> "The function fflush() forces a write of all buffered data for the given output or update stream
652 2012-11-02 18:50:27 <Matt_von_Mises> via the stream's underlying write function. The open status of the stream is unaffected."
653 2012-11-02 18:50:31 <Matt_von_Mises> It says that on OSX
654 2012-11-02 18:51:07 <Matt_von_Mises> jgarzik: The OSX man page has not NOTES section.
655 2012-11-02 18:51:31 <sipa> so, if you now read man 2 write, it should tell you that a succesful return from write does not guarantee the data hit disk
656 2012-11-02 18:51:48 <jgarzik> Matt_von_Mises: yep. the underlying write(2) function just pushes data to the OS kernel buffers, not disk.
657 2012-11-02 18:52:44 <Matt_von_Mises> jgarzik: I understand thanks. Obviously it is important the data is properly written to disk.
658 2012-11-02 18:53:15 <sipa> even fsync doesn't guarantee everything, as the disk itself may cache the data too, but typically only for a very short time
659 2012-11-02 18:53:25 <jgarzik> correct
660 2012-11-02 18:53:28 <sipa> and that is only an issue in case of power failure
661 2012-11-02 18:53:39 <sipa> not in case of software crash or other abnormal termination
662 2012-11-02 18:53:58 <Matt_von_Mises> I will make sure to look at further ways to protect against corruption, as you said databases use more elaborate mechanisms.
663 2012-11-02 18:54:21 <sipa> i like the idea of adding a checksum to every data block written
664 2012-11-02 18:54:35 <D34TH> jgarzik, just worked my ass off getting libevent working now its complaining about jansson
665 2012-11-02 18:54:35 <D34TH> D:
666 2012-11-02 18:54:36 <Matt_von_Mises> "Note that while fsync() will flush all data from the host to the drive (i.e. the "permanent
667 2012-11-02 18:54:36 <Matt_von_Mises> storage device"), the drive itself may not physically write the data to the platters for quite
668 2012-11-02 18:54:36 <Matt_von_Mises> some time and it may be written in an out-of-order sequence."
669 2012-11-02 18:54:47 <sipa> as it pretty much guarantees you're always reading consistent data
670 2012-11-02 18:54:49 <jgarzik> D34TH: README lists the deps :)
671 2012-11-02 18:54:59 <D34TH> jgarzik, i thought i had it
672 2012-11-02 18:55:06 <sipa> actually guaranteeing durability is much harder, but far less important
673 2012-11-02 18:55:13 <D34TH> turns out its included intree for the other thing that requires it
674 2012-11-02 18:55:21 <D34TH> what version do i need
675 2012-11-02 18:55:23 <jgarzik> D34TH: maybe CFLAGS needs -I/usr/local/include or LIBS needs -L/usr/local/lib or somesuch
676 2012-11-02 18:55:32 <sipa> (for example, we don't really care that the block database is a few blocks behind after a crash, as long it represents the correct state at that time)
677 2012-11-02 18:55:34 <jgarzik> D34TH: jansson2 2.x
678 2012-11-02 18:55:38 <jgarzik> D34TH: jansson 2.x
679 2012-11-02 18:55:44 <Matt_von_Mises> "For applications that require tighter guarantees about the integrity of their data, Mac OS X
680 2012-11-02 18:55:44 <Matt_von_Mises> provides the F_FULLFSYNC fcntl. The F_FULLFSYNC fcntl asks the drive to flush all buffered
681 2012-11-02 18:55:44 <Matt_von_Mises> data to permanent storage. Applications, such as databases, that require a strict ordering of
682 2012-11-02 18:55:44 <Matt_von_Mises> writes should use F_FULLFSYNC to ensure that their data is written in the order they expect.
683 2012-11-02 18:55:44 <Matt_von_Mises> Please see fcntl(2) for more detail."
684 2012-11-02 18:55:52 <Matt_von_Mises> Hmm, I wonder if this is an OSX only thing...
685 2012-11-02 18:56:06 <jgarzik> Matt_von_Mises: yes, that is largely OSX-only. Maybe some FreeBSD does it too.
686 2012-11-02 18:56:48 <jgarzik> Matt_von_Mises: note that fdatasync(2) is also available. fsync(2) does the inode + directory entry, IIRC, as well as the file data.
687 2012-11-02 18:57:11 <jgarzik> if you are simply updating the same file over and over, you want fdatasync(2)
688 2012-11-02 18:58:56 <Matt_von_Mises> jgarzik: OK
689 2012-11-02 18:59:53 <Matt_von_Mises> OSX does not implement fdatasync
690 2012-11-02 19:00:11 <Matt_von_Mises> ISn't that convenient!
691 2012-11-02 19:02:26 <jgarzik> sipa: yep
692 2012-11-02 19:02:38 Davincij15 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
693 2012-11-02 19:03:52 <jgarzik> sipa: The main thing about fs & disk block boundaries is avoiding an expensive read-modify-write cycle, which may introduce a window to corrupt _old_ data. This is admittedly a very rare case, which is probably why -- along with checksumming -- leveldb doesn't care. Only the Big Data Boys tend to see boundary problems.
694 2012-11-02 19:04:37 <jgarzik> but corrupting old data sucks :)
695 2012-11-02 19:04:57 <jgarzik> usually the expectation is "my newly flushed data might die somewhere in flight, but old data remains intact"
696 2012-11-02 19:04:58 <gmaxwell> for us it would be better to just make sure we can do something to recover if the database is totally borked.
697 2012-11-02 19:06:44 <jgarzik> in the context of bitcoind, I do worry about block boundaries and wallet flushing
698 2012-11-02 19:07:23 <jgarzik> but the problem window is very small, and the solutions tend to be highly inefficient (writing a lot more data than current bitcoind)
699 2012-11-02 19:07:33 <jgarzik> the other databases can be rebuilt
700 2012-11-02 19:07:40 <jgarzik> so who cares
701 2012-11-02 19:07:54 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
702 2012-11-02 19:08:32 molecular has joined
703 2012-11-02 19:22:15 <sipa> jgarzik: that problem does not exist if you're only appending, right?
704 2012-11-02 19:23:29 <gmaxwell> AFAIK, it does. You'll still rewrite the last sector if it didn't end on a sector boundary.
705 2012-11-02 19:23:59 <gmaxwell> This is invisble in the media. But I think the answer to that is: backup backup backup.
706 2012-11-02 19:26:12 <Matt_von_Mises> jgarzik: Does O_SYNC not work to ensure data has been written to disk?
707 2012-11-02 19:26:36 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: writing with O_SYNC is similar to writing + calling fsync
708 2012-11-02 19:26:59 <Matt_von_Mises> And that includes the vulnerabilities of fsync?
709 2012-11-02 19:27:08 <sipa> yes
710 2012-11-02 19:27:12 <sipa> but those are very limited
711 2012-11-02 19:27:13 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: ++ on the forum idea
712 2012-11-02 19:27:22 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
713 2012-11-02 19:27:39 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: but O_SYNC will make every write synchronous, so it's very slow
714 2012-11-02 19:27:59 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: Yes, best to sync only when needed.
715 2012-11-02 19:28:25 <sipa> indeed
716 2012-11-02 19:31:17 pecket has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
717 2012-11-02 19:31:32 tsche has joined
718 2012-11-02 19:33:03 <D34TH> jgarzik, http://pastebin.com/0LBMsyPQ
719 2012-11-02 19:33:10 <D34TH> close but not quite
720 2012-11-02 19:33:59 <jgarzik> D34TH: does your system support ipv6?
721 2012-11-02 19:34:05 <D34TH> it does
722 2012-11-02 19:34:09 <jgarzik> hrm
723 2012-11-02 19:34:12 <D34TH> im not sure about mingw though
724 2012-11-02 19:36:29 <jgarzik> D34TH: the first bits are confusing. it appears to be choking on its own sys/socket.h.
725 2012-11-02 19:36:53 pecket has joined
726 2012-11-02 19:36:59 <D34TH> new choke
727 2012-11-02 19:37:17 <D34TH> oh wait
728 2012-11-02 19:37:20 <jgarzik> D34TH: what is mingw's sys/socket.h, lines 86-90?
729 2012-11-02 19:37:21 <D34TH> that was a different project
730 2012-11-02 19:37:31 <jgarzik> heh
731 2012-11-02 19:38:08 <D34TH> the different choke was from a different project
732 2012-11-02 19:38:14 <D34TH> im getting you the socket.h
733 2012-11-02 19:38:20 <D34TH> http://pastebin.com/H5t3uF47
734 2012-11-02 19:41:49 denisx has joined
735 2012-11-02 19:42:20 Lirg has joined
736 2012-11-02 19:43:01 Lirg has quit (Client Quit)
737 2012-11-02 19:43:37 RedEmerald has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
738 2012-11-02 19:43:45 <D34TH> jgarzik, any ideas?
739 2012-11-02 19:46:14 bitscotty has joined
740 2012-11-02 19:46:17 <bitscotty> anyone buying
741 2012-11-02 19:46:39 <sipa> #bitcoin-otc
742 2012-11-02 19:47:38 freakazoid has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
743 2012-11-02 19:49:22 agricocb has joined
744 2012-11-02 19:49:24 <jgarzik> D34TH: that sys/socket.h wants struct sockaddr definition
745 2012-11-02 19:49:51 <jgarzik> D34TH: so the answer is finding out which mingw header defines struct sockaddr, and including that -before- sys/socket.h in dns.c
746 2012-11-02 19:50:26 <jgarzik> D34TH: additionally, the original paste indicate it was not finding struct addrinfo for getaddrinfo(), so need to find where that is defined too
747 2012-11-02 19:50:31 <jgarzik> D34TH: maybe winsock.h ?
748 2012-11-02 19:50:40 * jgarzik peeks at bitcoind
749 2012-11-02 19:51:45 <jgarzik> D34TH: yeah, bitcoind's compat.h has the magic likely needed... http://pastebin.com/zzC9Zu0M
750 2012-11-02 19:52:27 <D34TH> heh, ill just throw that in dns.h
751 2012-11-02 19:52:29 <D34TH> :3
752 2012-11-02 19:53:36 <D34TH> or better yet
753 2012-11-02 19:53:41 <D34TH> picocoin-config.h
754 2012-11-02 19:55:30 <jgarzik> D34TH: probably a better place, indeed
755 2012-11-02 19:56:17 <jgarzik> D34TH: here's the full magic: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/compat.h
756 2012-11-02 19:56:32 <jgarzik> D34TH: though picocoin doesn't use all that
757 2012-11-02 19:57:45 <jgarzik> and a tiny bit more WIN32 mingw magic in bitcoind's https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/util.h
758 2012-11-02 20:00:48 <Matt_von_Mises> Mentioning again the disk output problem⦠what can be said about sync()? Supposedly flushes all output caches and blocks until all pending output operations are completed.
759 2012-11-02 20:01:13 <jgarzik> Matt_von_Mises: sync() is system-wide
760 2012-11-02 20:01:27 <jgarzik> Matt_von_Mises: obviously slower and more impactful than fsync()'ing a single file
761 2012-11-02 20:01:38 <jgarzik> Matt_von_Mises: however, sync() does enable lazy programming
762 2012-11-02 20:03:41 <Matt_von_Mises> jgarzik: I'm wondering if sync() provides a better guarantee than fsync()
763 2012-11-02 20:03:56 <sipa> no
764 2012-11-02 20:04:16 aurigae has left ()
765 2012-11-02 20:05:01 <bitscotty> someone help me?
766 2012-11-02 20:05:05 CodesInChaos has joined
767 2012-11-02 20:05:06 <sipa> bitscotty: please don't PM me - if you want to sell something, go to #bitcoin-otc
768 2012-11-02 20:05:13 <bitscotty> sipa
769 2012-11-02 20:05:15 <bitscotty> its nt
770 2012-11-02 20:05:19 <bitscotty> i need help i forgot how to auth
771 2012-11-02 20:05:20 freakazoid has joined
772 2012-11-02 20:07:24 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
773 2012-11-02 20:08:20 agricocb has joined
774 2012-11-02 20:26:38 <bitscotty> how do i decrypt a key
775 2012-11-02 20:29:53 BitcoinBaltar has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
776 2012-11-02 20:36:42 BitcoinBaltar has joined
777 2012-11-02 20:36:49 <jgarzik> bitscotty: this is not a support channel. try #bitcoin or https://bitcointalk.org/
778 2012-11-02 20:44:12 <bitscotty> sorry
779 2012-11-02 20:48:14 gjs278 has joined
780 2012-11-02 20:55:05 <denisx> what is the estimated date of the blocksplit?
781 2012-11-02 20:55:12 <sipa> ?
782 2012-11-02 20:55:24 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
783 2012-11-02 20:55:33 <sipa> do you mean the 50->25 BTC subsidy drop?
784 2012-11-02 20:55:34 <BlueMatt> ;;seen TD
785 2012-11-02 20:55:34 <gribble> TD was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 5 hours, 7 minutes, and 37 seconds ago: <TD> hah
786 2012-11-02 20:55:48 <denisx> yes
787 2012-11-02 20:56:43 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
788 2012-11-02 20:56:43 <gribble> 206175
789 2012-11-02 20:56:52 <sipa> ;;bc,help
790 2012-11-02 20:56:52 <gribble> Alias bc,24hprc, Alias bc,avgprc, Alias bc,bitpenny, Alias bc,blockdiff, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,bounty, Alias bc,btcguild, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,convert, Alias bc,deepbit, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,diffchange, Alias bc,eligius, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,fx, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,halfreward, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,intersango, Alias (2 more messages)
791 2012-11-02 20:56:57 <sipa> ;;bc,halfreward
792 2012-11-02 20:56:59 <gribble> Estimated time of bitcoin block reward halving: Thu Nov 29 02:15:00 2012 | Time remaining: 3 weeks, 5 days, 13 hours, 30 minutes, and 0 seconds
793 2012-11-02 20:58:50 <sipa> soon!
794 2012-11-02 21:03:51 <denisx> the thing is, when will I start to switch the amount a user gets per share?
795 2012-11-02 21:05:52 <sipa> at block 210000
796 2012-11-02 21:06:11 <denisx> sipa: no, that is too late
797 2012-11-02 21:06:24 <sipa> what payout model do you use?
798 2012-11-02 21:06:33 <denisx> sipa: PPS
799 2012-11-02 21:07:24 <sipa> so you pay per what the share will on average gain you
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801 2012-11-02 21:07:30 <denisx> my user subit shares before the split and get 50/diff and then I find a block after the split
802 2012-11-02 21:07:51 <sipa> well if they mine on block 210000, they get 25/diff
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804 2012-11-02 21:07:56 <denisx> then I would pay too much
805 2012-11-02 21:08:00 <sipa> if they mine on a block before 210000, they get 50/diff
806 2012-11-02 21:08:08 <sipa> i don't see how?
807 2012-11-02 21:08:41 <denisx> image they submit 3 million shares before the split but I find the block after the split
808 2012-11-02 21:08:41 <sipa> oh, by "mining on block 210000" i do mean "when they are working to produce 210000"
809 2012-11-02 21:08:45 <denisx> imagine
810 2012-11-02 21:09:05 <sipa> so as soon as the height becomes 209999, you change the payout
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813 2012-11-02 21:10:42 <denisx> but I do not know if my next block will be before or after the blocksplit
814 2012-11-02 21:11:41 <sipa> how can you not know? you're building it?
815 2012-11-02 21:11:49 <sipa> ah, right
816 2012-11-02 21:11:58 <denisx> good! ;)
817 2012-11-02 21:12:44 <sipa> and please don't call it 'split' - that word scares me :p
818 2012-11-02 21:13:10 <denisx> how should I call it?
819 2012-11-02 21:13:31 <sipa> subsidy drop? reward halving?
820 2012-11-02 21:13:38 <sipa> never mind, i'm kidding :)
821 2012-11-02 21:13:54 <sipa> so, the shares that come in after the height reaches 209999 count only for 50%, i'd say
822 2012-11-02 21:14:40 <denisx> sipa: and then I find the block before and make some extra btc ;)
823 2012-11-02 21:15:10 <denisx> sipa: but I need some hours per block ;)
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830 2012-11-02 21:20:32 <denisx> I think I will calculate how long I need for one block with my poolrate and then I will switch 50% of that time before the "reward halving" happens
831 2012-11-02 21:20:40 <denisx> this should be fair for all
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911 2012-11-02 23:32:28 <phantomcircuit> -loadblock has a pretty amazing speed up
912 2012-11-02 23:32:38 <phantomcircuit> it's not nearly as much as you'd expect though
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914 2012-11-02 23:32:51 <sipa1024> phantomcircuit: which code version?
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917 2012-11-02 23:39:11 <phantomcircuit> sipa, stable verson from bitcoin.org
918 2012-11-02 23:39:22 <phantomcircuit> so
919 2012-11-02 23:39:23 <phantomcircuit> 0.7.1
920 2012-11-02 23:39:39 <phantomcircuit> there is like
921 2012-11-02 23:39:46 <phantomcircuit> a fucking hole in my pinky figner
922 2012-11-02 23:40:02 <phantomcircuit> sipa, roughly at block 120k
923 2012-11-02 23:40:12 <phantomcircuit> started about two hours ago
924 2012-11-02 23:40:49 <sipa> yeah, try the same with git head and be amazed :)
925 2012-11-02 23:40:51 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: <0.8 is mostly bound by bdb thrashing the disk.
926 2012-11-02 23:41:20 <phantomcircuit> this is for something marginally important
927 2012-11-02 23:41:21 <sipa> 120k blocks should take something like 3 minutes?
928 2012-11-02 23:41:32 <phantomcircuit> srsly?
929 2012-11-02 23:41:33 <phantomcircuit> damn
930 2012-11-02 23:41:40 <gmaxwell> yea, then don't run git master for that. :P
931 2012-11-02 23:41:54 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, hehe that's why i said it :)
932 2012-11-02 23:42:16 <phantomcircuit> it's funny
933 2012-11-02 23:42:24 <phantomcircuit> moving around 2GB files 10 MB/s feels slow
934 2012-11-02 23:42:28 <phantomcircuit> and yet i know it's not
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938 2012-11-02 23:47:07 <sipa> 70s
939 2012-11-02 23:47:10 <sipa> 11/02/12 23:33:45 SetBestChain: new best=00000000839a8e6886ab height=1 work=8590065666 tx=2 date=01/09/09 02:54:25
940 2012-11-02 23:47:13 <sipa> 11/02/12 23:34:55 SetBestChain: new best=0000000000000e07595f height=120000 work=4404269158302965364 tx=435536 date=04/24/11 23:20:01
941 2012-11-02 23:49:34 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: would using C as an IL really be that bad?
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