1 2012-11-08 00:04:37 * Hasimir cunt
   2 2012-11-08 00:05:31 * Hasimir CUNT
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   4 2012-11-08 00:07:37 <Hasimir> apologies all something broke
   5 2012-11-08 00:12:01 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
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  10 2012-11-08 00:20:23 <graingert> BlueMatt, ah, I didn't notice
  11 2012-11-08 00:20:39 <graingert> re: bloom filter
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  91 2012-11-08 04:04:24 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
  92 2012-11-08 04:04:32 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
  93 2012-11-08 04:04:32 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
  94 2012-11-08 04:04:33 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
  95 2012-11-08 04:04:33 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
  96 2012-11-08 04:04:33 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
  97 2012-11-08 04:04:33 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
  98 2012-11-08 04:04:34 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
  99 2012-11-08 04:04:35 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 100 2012-11-08 04:04:36 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 101 2012-11-08 04:04:36 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 102 2012-11-08 04:04:37 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 103 2012-11-08 04:04:37 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 104 2012-11-08 04:04:38 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 105 2012-11-08 04:04:38 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 106 2012-11-08 04:04:39 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 107 2012-11-08 04:04:39 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 108 2012-11-08 04:04:51 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 109 2012-11-08 04:04:51 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 110 2012-11-08 04:04:52 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 111 2012-11-08 04:04:52 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 112 2012-11-08 04:04:53 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 113 2012-11-08 04:04:54 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 114 2012-11-08 04:04:54 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 115 2012-11-08 04:04:55 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 116 2012-11-08 04:04:55 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 117 2012-11-08 04:04:56 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 118 2012-11-08 04:04:56 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 119 2012-11-08 04:04:57 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 120 2012-11-08 04:04:57 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 121 2012-11-08 04:04:58 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 122 2012-11-08 04:04:58 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 123 2012-11-08 04:04:59 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 124 2012-11-08 04:04:59 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 125 2012-11-08 04:04:59 <kreal> [MOFO] why?
 126 2012-11-08 04:05:06 <Luke-Jr> kreal: /ignore it please
 127 2012-11-08 04:05:11 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 128 2012-11-08 04:05:11 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 129 2012-11-08 04:05:12 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 130 2012-11-08 04:05:12 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 131 2012-11-08 04:05:13 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 132 2012-11-08 04:05:13 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 133 2012-11-08 04:05:14 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 134 2012-11-08 04:05:14 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 135 2012-11-08 04:05:15 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 136 2012-11-08 04:05:15 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 137 2012-11-08 04:05:15 <kreal> just wondering the reason.
 138 2012-11-08 04:05:16 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 139 2012-11-08 04:05:16 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 140 2012-11-08 04:05:17 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 141 2012-11-08 04:05:18 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 142 2012-11-08 04:05:18 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 143 2012-11-08 04:05:19 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 144 2012-11-08 04:05:19 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 145 2012-11-08 04:05:31 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 146 2012-11-08 04:05:31 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 147 2012-11-08 04:05:32 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 148 2012-11-08 04:05:32 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 149 2012-11-08 04:05:33 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 150 2012-11-08 04:05:34 <kreal> or maybe his daddy hit him?
 151 2012-11-08 04:05:37 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 152 2012-11-08 04:05:37 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 153 2012-11-08 04:05:37 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 154 2012-11-08 04:05:37 <[MOFO]> do do do do
 155 2012-11-08 04:05:37 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 156 2012-11-08 04:05:37 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 157 2012-11-08 04:05:37 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 158 2012-11-08 04:05:38 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 159 2012-11-08 04:05:38 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 160 2012-11-08 04:05:39 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 161 2012-11-08 04:05:39 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 162 2012-11-08 04:05:40 <[MOFO]> Fuck the Jew for me! Fuck the Jew for me! You can do for me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSei2pDDlY
 163 2012-11-08 04:05:43 [MOFO] has quit (Excess Flood)
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 165 2012-11-08 04:07:25 <kreal> is there a .wb topdomain?
 166 2012-11-08 04:11:21 <xIsalty> no
 167 2012-11-08 04:11:41 Gladamas has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 168 2012-11-08 04:12:07 <kreal> thank. no I didn't find it.
 169 2012-11-08 04:12:10 <kreal> could be nice though.
 170 2012-11-08 04:13:53 Z0rZ0rZ0r has joined
 171 2012-11-08 04:15:39 Z0rZ0rZ0r1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 172 2012-11-08 04:15:51 <kreal> also I would like .bit to be a real topdomain :)
 173 2012-11-08 04:19:55 <Hasimir> you could use .biz and pronounce the z more like ts
 174 2012-11-08 04:20:17 <kreal> hehe yeah
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 184 2012-11-08 04:40:13 <BlueMatt> nvm
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 266 2012-11-08 09:32:04 <Guest52889> how can I setup coinbasercmd ocmmands?
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 270 2012-11-08 09:59:16 <Guest52889> what does b'\xFA\xBF\xB5\xDA mean
 271 2012-11-08 09:59:38 <Diablo-D3> you sunk my battleship!
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 273 2012-11-08 10:00:40 <kinlo> it would help if you said you were trying to set up eloipool
 274 2012-11-08 10:00:46 <kinlo> at least - I guess you are
 275 2012-11-08 10:00:51 <kinlo> I don't really know
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 277 2012-11-08 10:02:57 BurtyBB is now known as BurtyB
 278 2012-11-08 10:03:00 <Guest52889> kinlo: yes, I'm trying to set up eloipool
 279 2012-11-08 10:03:05 <Guest52889> It's the message header for bitcoin
 280 2012-11-08 10:03:10 <Guest52889> (Testnet).
 281 2012-11-08 10:03:22 <kinlo> see, if we need to guess, we probably wont help you
 282 2012-11-08 10:03:28 <kinlo> you gotta learn to ask smart questions
 283 2012-11-08 10:03:54 <Guest52889> sorry, I was just thinking if it would look familiar to someone who done it before
 284 2012-11-08 10:04:39 <kinlo> this is the bitcoin development channel, not the eloipool development channel
 285 2012-11-08 10:05:15 <kinlo> one would assume you'd be discussing a bitcoin client, and unless specified the reference client
 286 2012-11-08 10:05:36 <Guest52889> oy
 287 2012-11-08 10:05:55 <Guest52889> it's* actually part of the default bitcoin client (the message headers), but yeah
 288 2012-11-08 10:06:05 <kinlo> not in python format :)
 289 2012-11-08 10:06:10 <kinlo> in any case
 290 2012-11-08 10:06:17 <kinlo> you already answered your own question
 291 2012-11-08 10:07:20 <sipa> Guest52889: it's not the message header for either mainnet or testnet3
 292 2012-11-08 10:07:32 <sipa> maybe it's the message header for an older instance of testnet
 293 2012-11-08 10:08:03 <kinlo> sipa: it's older testnet, it's from the sample config luke provides
 294 2012-11-08 10:08:10 <Guest52889> Yeah it was a year ago
 295 2012-11-08 10:08:13 <kinlo> but he wrote his sample config when only testnet2 existed
 296 2012-11-08 10:08:14 <Guest52889> https://github.com/gavinandresen/Bitcoin-protocol-test-harness/blob/master/BitcoinClient.py
 297 2012-11-08 10:08:35 <kinlo> or not
 298 2012-11-08 10:08:36 <kinlo> see
 299 2012-11-08 10:08:53 <kinlo> that's why you need to learn to ask questions, you were not talking about eloipool
 300 2012-11-08 10:08:56 <kinlo> I guessed wrong
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 339 2012-11-08 12:43:52 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
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 386 2012-11-08 14:03:14 <etotheipi_> I've got a fun idea, tell me if this is crazy
 387 2012-11-08 14:04:13 agricocb has joined
 388 2012-11-08 14:04:27 <etotheipi_> choose a string "This is secret but not really", and encrypt that into the header information of the wallet file with the encryption passphrase that is used for all the other sensitive data
 389 2012-11-08 14:05:07 <etotheipi_> then if a user forgets their passphrase, they can post that encrypted string on the forums with a bounty and information they know about their passphrase
 390 2012-11-08 14:05:35 <etotheipi_> then users who are motivated to help crack it, can do so without having the full wallet, and can prove to the owner that they have succeeded
 391 2012-11-08 14:06:10 <_dr> except if some guys can crack it a motivated attacker can, too
 392 2012-11-08 14:06:15 agath has joined
 393 2012-11-08 14:06:30 <etotheipi_> none of this changes the already-strong encryption on the wallets...
 394 2012-11-08 14:06:50 <etotheipi_> all it does is it adds a mechanism by which others can try to brute force the passphrase without having the full wallet
 395 2012-11-08 14:07:05 <drizztbsd> why?
 396 2012-11-08 14:07:18 <drizztbsd> universal question: why :P
 397 2012-11-08 14:07:23 <etotheipi_> tons of people on the forums post that they forgot their passphrase
 398 2012-11-08 14:07:43 <etotheipi_> their only solution is to post their encrypted wallet and information about their passphrase
 399 2012-11-08 14:07:49 <_dr> they should just upload their wallets and provide an address
 400 2012-11-08 14:07:51 <wumpus> you're basically adding a known-plaintext.. doesn't the current wallet already have some known plaintext areas that could be used for that?
 401 2012-11-08 14:07:56 <_dr> and pray that someone will split 50/50, haha
 402 2012-11-08 14:08:00 <etotheipi_> and hope that the person who gets it feels generous enough to give some back
 403 2012-11-08 14:08:19 <drizztbsd> it's better to remember passphrase or to usa paper wallet
 404 2012-11-08 14:08:20 <drizztbsd> :P
 405 2012-11-08 14:08:26 <etotheipi_> drizz, of course
 406 2012-11-08 14:08:58 <_dr> or you could implement security questions :) 'what's the name of your dog?'
 407 2012-11-08 14:09:13 <wumpus> for example you could just post an encrypted, unused private key
 408 2012-11-08 14:09:16 <etotheipi_> but it doesn't stop people who from forgetting their passphrase and not having a paper backup, anyway
 409 2012-11-08 14:09:26 <wumpus> and the public key for that
 410 2012-11-08 14:09:29 <etotheipi_> wumpus: that's true
 411 2012-11-08 14:09:34 <etotheipi_> well, almost
 412 2012-11-08 14:09:44 <etotheipi_> actually no
 413 2012-11-08 14:09:55 <wumpus> I'm sure it has some header bytes that could be used to verify you have the right decryptio nkey
 414 2012-11-08 14:09:58 <etotheipi_> because the private key is not obvious when it's found
 415 2012-11-08 14:10:18 <etotheipi_> you have to add to each guess of the passphrase, an expensive ECDSA operation to get the public key
 416 2012-11-08 14:10:22 <sipa> wumpus: we only encrypt private key data
 417 2012-11-08 14:10:23 <wumpus> as the current bitcoin client can also check whether you entered the right passphrase and won't just use invalid decoded keys
 418 2012-11-08 14:10:55 tsche has joined
 419 2012-11-08 14:11:53 <etotheipi_> I'm going to be making a new wallet format for Armory soon... I'm thinking of adding this as a feature
 420 2012-11-08 14:12:04 <etotheipi_> I have had 3-4 requests in the past month for help recovering passphrases
 421 2012-11-08 14:13:32 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: we don't have an extraction tool but they could post their master key and some keypool key for cracking.
 422 2012-11-08 14:14:01 <gmaxwell> Having a seperate passphrase doesn't make sense for your purpose, I think.. since an attacker with the local data could just brute force the weaker one. Might as well just have the weaker one, enh?
 423 2012-11-08 14:14:20 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: it's not a weaker passphrase
 424 2012-11-08 14:14:42 <wumpus> hm it'd make it a lot cheaper to bruteforce the passphrase
 425 2012-11-08 14:14:43 <etotheipi_> I'm saying it's a string known only to the owner of the wallet that is obvious once the correct passphrase is guessed
 426 2012-11-08 14:15:07 <wumpus> currently it indeed does a ECDSA operation to check whehter the entered passphrase was valid
 427 2012-11-08 14:15:17 <sipa> wumpus: which is actually not necessary
 428 2012-11-08 14:15:35 <sipa> as the private keys are encoded using AES-CBC, which pads the keys from 32 to 48 bytes
 429 2012-11-08 14:15:38 <wumpus> it isn't? how would it check otherwise if you only encrypt private keys as you said?
 430 2012-11-08 14:15:41 <wumpus> hmm right
 431 2012-11-08 14:15:49 <wumpus> so just check the padding.. that's too bad
 432 2012-11-08 14:16:00 <sipa> yes, that's a bug, essentiallyu
 433 2012-11-08 14:16:06 <etotheipi_> if the difference between being actually secure and not secure is adding an extra operation like that to each guess, you probably did it wrong
 434 2012-11-08 14:16:21 <sipa> right, it doesn't break the security model at all
 435 2012-11-08 14:16:42 <sipa> but the initial assumption was that it would require an ECDSA multiplication to verify
 436 2012-11-08 14:17:08 <etotheipi_> sipa: and I like the intent of that... from the perspective of deterring attackers
 437 2012-11-08 14:17:26 <etotheipi_> but I wonder if it's worth accommodating the all-too-common case of people forgetting their own passphrase and not having any kind of backup
 438 2012-11-08 14:17:43 <wumpus> I don't think bruteforcing is the right way for that
 439 2012-11-08 14:18:11 <etotheipi_> what other choice is there?
 440 2012-11-08 14:18:30 <etotheipi_> (it wouldn't be strictly brute force, the owner of the wallet would post any information they know about the passphrase)
 441 2012-11-08 14:18:48 <sipa> have the client mail an pubkey-encrypted-to-alert-key version of the plain wallet key to gavin
 442 2012-11-08 14:18:56 <sipa> problem solved for us!
 443 2012-11-08 14:19:01 <etotheipi_> the way Armory wallets are set right now...  the computer on which the wallet was created, would take about 500 years to guess a 6-char passphrase with no information
 444 2012-11-08 14:19:11 <wumpus> some kind of key escrow, but the details are indeed difficult
 445 2012-11-08 14:19:15 <etotheipi_> (900 years max)
 446 2012-11-08 14:20:54 <wumpus> maybe some N out of M scheme with people that you somehow trust
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 449 2012-11-08 14:21:35 <gmaxwell> yea, escrow is nicer than bruteforce BUT  ... it must be optional in order to not be evil... but when you actually realize you needed it.. it was too late.
 450 2012-11-08 14:21:50 <SomeoneWeird> yep
 451 2012-11-08 14:22:23 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 452 2012-11-08 14:22:33 <gmaxwell> OTOH, if it's just locally stored.. perhaps it could be on by default?  The risk then is that if the trustees are evil _AND_ they get a copy of your file.
 453 2012-11-08 14:22:41 agricocb has joined
 454 2012-11-08 14:22:42 <wumpus> but bruteforcing also gives opposite incentives, you want your key to be hard to bruteforce but what if you want to recover it?
 455 2012-11-08 14:23:07 <gmaxwell> bruteforcing also funds creating infrastructure we'd rather not exist or at least be as expensive as possible. :(
 456 2012-11-08 14:23:24 <etotheipi_> wumpus: my guess is ... if you created the passphrase yourself, and you yourself "forgot" it... you are likely to know enough about it to make this operation feasible
 457 2012-11-08 14:24:25 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: if that infrastructure is going to exist, isn't it better for it to just happen, and for users to adjust to the fact it exists?  (by picking stronger passphrases, etc)
 458 2012-11-08 14:24:37 malaimo has joined
 459 2012-11-08 14:24:49 <etotheipi_> (not that users will ever pick stronger passphrases...)
 460 2012-11-08 14:25:18 <wumpus> sure but you'd want some technical specification for "information you know about your passphrase" I guess, otherwise people will have to write custom software every time to crack a passphrase :p
 461 2012-11-08 14:25:22 <da2ce7> etotheipi_: or have a “Encrypt my passphrase to my buddies” option... where you you put the EC public keys of say 4 of your buddies, and set (need 3/4 to agree)...
 462 2012-11-08 14:25:32 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: It's also about the cost of it. encouraging people to post keys for bruteforcing makes it cheaper.
 463 2012-11-08 14:26:01 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: you wont do that because you don't believe you're at forgetting risk until its too late. :(
 464 2012-11-08 14:26:03 <drizztbsd> you can use SSS (Shamir)
 465 2012-11-08 14:26:10 <drizztbsd> and split your passphrase to many pieces
 466 2012-11-08 14:26:14 <wumpus> da2ce7: yes I like that idea
 467 2012-11-08 14:26:23 <drizztbsd> and you can send one of them to your friends
 468 2012-11-08 14:26:32 <da2ce7> gmaxwell: you may do it the _second_ time...
 469 2012-11-08 14:26:37 <etotheipi_> da2ce7: but that only accommodates a use-case that very few people could even exercise
 470 2012-11-08 14:26:39 <drizztbsd> when you lost your passphrase you can ask him the pieces and recomplete the passphrase :P
 471 2012-11-08 14:26:55 <etotheipi_> a lot of people are creating offline wallets, and don't have lots of Bitcoin buddies
 472 2012-11-08 14:27:15 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: so why not have a default escrow set and a checkbox to replace it or deactivate it?
 473 2012-11-08 14:27:20 <etotheipi_> and if they were going to go through that effort, it would be safer just to create a paper backup
 474 2012-11-08 14:27:32 <wumpus> well if you have an offline wallet in a physically safe place, you could just give the full key to someone
 475 2012-11-08 14:27:45 <da2ce7> etotheipi_: but your buddies could well be your 'other wallets'  eg... your phone, everyday wallet, and your brothers wallet.
 476 2012-11-08 14:28:03 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I don't understand...
 477 2012-11-08 14:28:28 <helo> isn't it better to just recommend best practices? i.e. paper
 478 2012-11-08 14:29:00 <etotheipi_> helo: there is a reason I'm reminders all over the place in Armory, encouraging the user to make paper backups
 479 2012-11-08 14:29:14 <etotheipi_> and they can't be encrypted, so they are guaranteed to have a plan B if something happens
 480 2012-11-08 14:29:17 <helo> won't people rely on this, and then nobody will be able to bruteforce their passphrase?
 481 2012-11-08 14:29:27 <etotheipi_> but that doesn't stop people from not taking those extra steps
 482 2012-11-08 14:29:53 <helo> if they think there is some protection even if they do not, i think fewer people will do it
 483 2012-11-08 14:29:58 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: when you crate a wallet a dialog would say   [Add data the following people to cooperate to help you recover your wallet if you forget your passpharse [X] ]
 484 2012-11-08 14:30:23 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: then store in the wallet a copy of the derrived key (not the passphrase) which has been split and encrypted for those parties.
 485 2012-11-08 14:30:40 <gmaxwell> and have some option to replace the people with your friends if you have any, or turn that off entirely.
 486 2012-11-08 14:31:19 <gmaxwell> And a text field to indicate how you're going to identify yourself to those people.
 487 2012-11-08 14:31:41 MBS has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 488 2012-11-08 14:32:41 <kjj_> does anyone know how named pipes work in Windows?  I think I just about have a pipe notification system working in linux, but that is super easy because it acts exactly like a file
 489 2012-11-08 14:33:15 <gmaxwell> then if you forget it you send those people a recovery blob... and do what you said you do to idenfy yourself. And they decrypt it and send it back.
 490 2012-11-08 14:34:01 <da2ce7> well I'm off... hope you guys have a great meeting! :)  1am here.
 491 2012-11-08 14:34:24 <gmaxwell> ideally they'd be able to pay the escrow parties for this service.. dunno how to do it if their funds are tied up.
 492 2012-11-08 14:34:55 <da2ce7> prepay.
 493 2012-11-08 14:36:01 <gmaxwell> yuck. I'd rather there be no contact with the escrow parties for security.. and prepay means almost no one will do it.
 494 2012-11-08 14:36:47 <gmaxwell> "Sorry, you didn't have the foresight to protect your passphrase" doesn't really help the problem etotheipi_ has seen in practice.
 495 2012-11-08 14:40:44 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: the theory is cool, but I can't imagine how many people would actually use it, even if they had foresight
 496 2012-11-08 14:41:10 <etotheipi_> or how many people even has that many technically-inclined friends to make it possible
 497 2012-11-08 14:42:31 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: I was suggesting there be a default list (e.g. well known trusted community members, interested attornies, etc); that users that care could optionally override.
 498 2012-11-08 14:42:42 <etotheipi_> ooh, i see
 499 2012-11-08 14:42:59 <gmaxwell> so the only thing required of them would be typing in some stuff that they plan to do to prove themselves.
 500 2012-11-08 14:43:08 TD has joined
 501 2012-11-08 14:44:07 <etotheipi_> part of the problem is that people are so used to the safety net of websites that can help them recover their passwords
 502 2012-11-08 14:45:04 <etotheipi_> they don't realize how important *this password* is, above all others
 503 2012-11-08 14:45:37 <gmaxwell> Yep. I fully agree. You should have seen the idiotic argument in #bitcoin 24 hours ago I got myself into.
 504 2012-11-08 14:46:34 <gmaxwell> someone was suggesting using a really secure wallet passphrase and never writing it down. I recommended writing it down on paper and kept seperate from the computer, potentially split and was accued of being security incompetent.
 505 2012-11-08 14:46:57 cosurgi has joined
 506 2012-11-08 14:46:57 <etotheipi_> heh
 507 2012-11-08 14:47:40 <etotheipi_> I am slightly bothered by the folks who don't understand the massive difference between online and offline security
 508 2012-11-08 14:47:58 <gmaxwell> I think a default escrow behavior would be fine... the one real problem is that to be useful you have to provide something to prove yourself to the trustees if they aren't your friends... otherwise a theif could do it too.
 509 2012-11-08 14:48:09 <wumpus> writing it down is pretty good idea, as most of the threat in bitcoin is from computer attacks... how many burglars will understand :p
 510 2012-11-08 14:48:17 <etotheipi_> wumpus: exactly
 511 2012-11-08 14:48:28 <etotheipi_> people assume that if there is any physical evidence anywhere, they will be compromised
 512 2012-11-08 14:48:42 <wumpus> unless you're really high profile in the community and people know you have a lot of bitcoins ofc... but that's more the exception than the rule
 513 2012-11-08 14:48:49 <etotheipi_> even though 99%+ of issues will arise digitally, not physically
 514 2012-11-08 14:49:25 <etotheipi_> I want to write a blog post (if I had a blog), about how you're actually using a brainwallet if you don't create a paper backup or write it down or keep a copy in a safe-deposit box, etc
 515 2012-11-08 14:49:38 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I agree. Plus you could hide the written copy pretty effectively— a theif looking for it would be unlikely to find it.
 516 2012-11-08 14:50:00 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: even when you tell people about that they just dont reason well about their risk of forgetting... You don't remember most of the things you've forgotten at all! :P
 517 2012-11-08 14:50:05 <wumpus> right, though it's easy to forget where you put something that you hid effectively but never go looking for :-)
 518 2012-11-08 14:50:31 <etotheipi_> wumpus: sure... but you will find it eventually
 519 2012-11-08 14:50:46 <etotheipi_> if it's the difference between never seeing your $20k again... you'll find it :)
 520 2012-11-08 14:50:50 <wumpus> true
 521 2012-11-08 14:51:12 <gmaxwell> well, not for sure, but its pretty likely.
 522 2012-11-08 14:51:23 <etotheipi_> although you don't want to end up like the firefighter in "Rescue Me" who hid his $20k in cash somewhere
 523 2012-11-08 14:51:35 <etotheipi_> and his wife thought that the container was trash and threw it out
 524 2012-11-08 14:51:36 <wumpus> anyway it's still quite more robust and easier to find than storign it digitally somewhere
 525 2012-11-08 14:51:37 <gmaxwell> e.g. you hide it in a book and forget it.. then give the book away...
 526 2012-11-08 14:52:09 <gmaxwell> Right. It's not for sure but its a good improvement.
 527 2012-11-08 14:52:22 <gmaxwell> But people won't do that because they think the odds of needing it are ~0.
 528 2012-11-08 14:52:28 <wumpus> yes
 529 2012-11-08 14:52:43 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: yet they believe the odds are 90%+ that if it exists, an attacker will find it
 530 2012-11-08 14:52:52 <wumpus> reminds me that the bitcoin gui should really have a way to print the key
 531 2012-11-08 14:53:04 <etotheipi_> (plug Armory, here)
 532 2012-11-08 14:53:11 <etotheipi_> :)
 533 2012-11-08 14:53:21 <gmaxwell> Yea, armory has done good there.
 534 2012-11-08 14:53:31 <wumpus> though last time it ended up in some paranoid discussion where people were afraid that their printer stored it... :-)
 535 2012-11-08 14:53:33 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: is the paper backup unencrypted?
 536 2012-11-08 14:53:39 <gmaxwell> wumpus: well— it's a risk!
 537 2012-11-08 14:53:40 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, yes
 538 2012-11-08 14:53:52 <gmaxwell> wumpus: my printers can print the last job from memory.
 539 2012-11-08 14:53:57 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I'm conflicted on allowing encrypted paper backups
 540 2012-11-08 14:54:05 <etotheipi_> due to my previous comment about brainwallets
 541 2012-11-08 14:54:23 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: agreed. I'd rather it support splitting instead of encryption. e.g. print three pages, and you need two of them.
 542 2012-11-08 14:54:49 <etotheipi_> some would argue that I shouldn't be protecting users from themselves (let them encrypt and forget it if they are that irresponsible), but I just don't want to deal with it when they do
 543 2012-11-08 14:54:50 <wumpus> so writing it down the old fashioned way is the only way that is secure really 
 544 2012-11-08 14:55:14 <wumpus> also less recognizable
 545 2012-11-08 14:55:15 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: doing a split-paper backup is an excellent idea
 546 2012-11-08 14:55:40 Guest29458 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 547 2012-11-08 14:56:27 <gmaxwell> I dont want to protect people from _personal_ stupidity, but I strongly believe software should protect people from inherit _human_ stupidity.
 548 2012-11-08 14:56:47 <etotheipi_> gah... I should go to work...
 549 2012-11-08 14:56:56 <etotheipi_> I'd love to sit here and chat about this stuff all day...
 550 2012-11-08 14:56:59 <gmaxwell> (well, personal stupidty I have sympathy for being often stupid myself; but the universe will just invent better idiots)
 551 2012-11-08 14:57:04 <wumpus> I'm not that sure about splitting, it sounds nice in theory, but if you hide something in multiple places so much can go wrong
 552 2012-11-08 14:57:25 <etotheipi_> wumpus: I like the idea as having it as an option
 553 2012-11-08 14:57:33 <gmaxwell> wumpus: then put them in one place. I don't think that humans are too likely to underestimate that risk.
 554 2012-11-08 14:57:37 <etotheipi_> most users will print a single backup as they do already with Armory
 555 2012-11-08 14:58:04 <wumpus> oh most people are very optimistic about their own memory
 556 2012-11-08 14:58:07 <etotheipi_> but those that understand the risk (and are in "Expert usermode" in Armory), can have the option to use split-paper
 557 2012-11-08 14:58:25 <wumpus> it's so easy to remember lots of hiding places... for a day :)
 558 2012-11-08 14:58:53 <etotheipi_> well, if they do 3-of-5 or something... they don't have to find all of them...
 559 2012-11-08 14:59:12 <wumpus> hehe
 560 2012-11-08 14:59:14 <etotheipi_> although the more you create and the lower threshold you have ,the more likely an attack of opportunity could arise from someone finding pieces
 561 2012-11-08 14:59:39 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 562 2012-11-08 14:59:51 <etotheipi_> but I still think 99%+ of the risk is online, and thus a single paper backup (1-of-1) meets the needs of the vast majority of users
 563 2012-11-08 15:00:02 <gmaxwell> wumpus: right but at least you have the 'you can just tear the house apart'   it took me two days of solid searching to find my 2002 tax returns. ... they were in a folder... at the bottom of a box of clothes from two moves ago.
 564 2012-11-08 15:00:25 <wumpus> but yea the splitting is nice for experts or people that have a lot of coins, sure
 565 2012-11-08 15:00:53 <etotheipi_> I've enjoyed having a split interface in Armory and separating "Expert" features from regular users
 566 2012-11-08 15:01:06 <etotheipi_> because I keep coming up with ideas that *I* want implemented, but would just confuse beginners
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 568 2012-11-08 15:01:20 <wumpus> fun would be to put 5 bitcoins in every private key, print them out separately and hide them all over the place
 569 2012-11-08 15:01:21 <wumpus> hehe
 570 2012-11-08 15:02:31 <etotheipi_> alright unlike everyone else here, *I* have to go to work...
 571 2012-11-08 15:02:34 <etotheipi_> :-/
 572 2012-11-08 15:02:48 <etotheipi_> (which, unfortunately, has nothing to do with Bitcoin)
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 576 2012-11-08 15:41:50 <kjj_> gavinandresen: got a sec?
 577 2012-11-08 15:41:55 <gavinandresen> nope
 578 2012-11-08 15:42:09 <drizztbsd> lol
 579 2012-11-08 15:42:50 <gavinandresen> (I'm in a Foundation board meeting in another window....)
 580 2012-11-08 15:43:06 <kjj_> no problem.  that's why I asked
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 597 2012-11-08 16:35:58 <gavinandresen> kjj_: ok, now I have a sec
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 601 2012-11-08 16:48:14 <sipa> gavinandresen: meeting in 1.5h, right?
 602 2012-11-08 16:48:21 <gavinandresen> Right!
 603 2012-11-08 16:48:27 <gavinandresen> Yay meetings!
 604 2012-11-08 16:48:52 <gavinandresen> GIVE ME AN "M"!  GIVE ME AN "E"!  GIVE ME (ok, I'll shut up now)
 605 2012-11-08 16:49:11 <sipa> /me tings gavinandresen needs some valium
 606 2012-11-08 16:49:29 <kjj_> gavinandresen: I was looking at the named pipe thing
 607 2012-11-08 16:49:31 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
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 609 2012-11-08 16:49:57 <sipa> i think named pipes are very hard to do in a cross-platform way
 610 2012-11-08 16:50:09 <gavinandresen> sipa: I'm ok with it not working on Windows.
 611 2012-11-08 16:50:10 <kjj_> that was the conclusion that I was coming to
 612 2012-11-08 16:50:17 <gavinandresen> named pipes work nicely on Mac and LInux
 613 2012-11-08 16:50:32 Zarutian has joined
 614 2012-11-08 16:50:43 <sipa> obviously we need a built-in scripting language to deal with these events
 615 2012-11-08 16:50:52 <kjj_> on unix systems, it appears to be very, very simple to make a stripped down copy of the OutputDebugStringF function
 616 2012-11-08 16:50:57 <sipa> how about x86?
 617 2012-11-08 16:51:21 <gavinandresen> I'm lost.  how about what x86?
 618 2012-11-08 16:51:43 <sipa> using x86 as a scripting language for handling events
 619 2012-11-08 16:51:49 <sipa> i hear it is very flexible
 620 2012-11-08 16:51:57 <gavinandresen> kjj: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/boost-list/rOZy1xxS-rw  looks relevant
 621 2012-11-08 16:52:01 <kjj_> if it is up to the user to create it in advance with mkfifo, then the function just needs to fopen it on the first pass, and write the rest
 622 2012-11-08 16:52:56 <gavinandresen> kjj_: yes, assuming the pipe never backs up and blocks.  Which might be a good assumption (or can you fwrite and have it fail if it blocks?)
 623 2012-11-08 16:52:58 <kjj_> it appears that named pipes on windows appear in a different namespace than regular files
 624 2012-11-08 16:53:03 <sipa> well you could just say "upon event, write to fd N", and you can connect thay fd yourself to a pipe, a file, a network socket, ...
 625 2012-11-08 16:53:29 deadserious has joined
 626 2012-11-08 16:53:33 <gavinandresen> sipa: still need code to open that fd
 627 2012-11-08 16:53:46 <sipa> gavinandresen: bash; done
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 629 2012-11-08 16:54:10 <gavinandresen> sipa: ? huh ?  can you start a process with a fd open already for it?
 630 2012-11-08 16:54:17 <gavinandresen> (other than stdout/stderr)
 631 2012-11-08 16:54:21 <sipa> sure
 632 2012-11-08 16:54:30 <sipa> blabla 3>bla
 633 2012-11-08 16:54:43 <sipa> will have fd 3 opened for writing to bla
 634 2012-11-08 16:54:45 <gavinandresen> I did not know that.
 635 2012-11-08 16:55:02 <sipa> but you probably want it built in in the program
 636 2012-11-08 16:55:11 <sipa> to reopen a connectiin if it dies, eg
 637 2012-11-08 16:55:28 <gavinandresen> mmm.  and will the fd survive the -daemon fork?  (suppose it would...)
 638 2012-11-08 16:55:47 <sipa> yechild threads inherit the fd table by default
 639 2012-11-08 16:56:01 <sipa> *child processes
 640 2012-11-08 16:56:51 <gavinandresen> sipa: re: re-opening connections, etc:  I'd like all of that code to be external to the bitcoind process, which is why just writing to a fd or named pipe appeals to me
 641 2012-11-08 16:57:05 <kjj_> er, I *think* that the write will fail if the buffer is full
 642 2012-11-08 16:58:16 <gavinandresen> no, I think fwrite will block if the output buffer is full
 643 2012-11-08 16:58:59 <sipa> by default, it will block
 644 2012-11-08 16:59:05 <sipa> but you can make the fd non-blocking
 645 2012-11-08 16:59:23 <sipa> in which case you can use select or poll to query for place in the write buffer
 646 2012-11-08 17:00:48 <gavinandresen> meh... if it blocks, maybe just a debug.log ERROR and stop reporting new transactions until it unblocks, and rely on users to write transaction handling code that is fast enough?
 647 2012-11-08 17:00:57 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
 648 2012-11-08 17:01:39 <kjj_> hmm.  that means a check before the write to figure out if it will block, right?
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 651 2012-11-08 17:02:20 <kjj_> been a while...
 652 2012-11-08 17:02:30 <gavinandresen> I dunno, I've never actually written any non-blocking IO stuff in C/C++
 653 2012-11-08 17:03:25 <kjj_> hmm.  I think that if I just fcntl to make the FD non-blocking, it'll just error through silently.
 654 2012-11-08 17:04:15 <kinlo>  basicly you write to a nonblocking file as is
 655 2012-11-08 17:04:47 <kinlo> and you look at the return value, it will write less bytes if the fd would block instead, or return E_TRYAGAIN or something  like that
 656 2012-11-08 17:05:26 <kinlo> it's been a while, but basicly you just need to remember what was successfull and what not, and retry writing to it as soon as select/poll/epoll/whatever tells you it is ready to be written to
 657 2012-11-08 17:06:07 <sipa> or you have a separate thread to write to the pipe, and use an internal buffer with a separate critical section
 658 2012-11-08 17:06:20 <gavinandresen> sipa: do you have a strong preference for:  bitcoind -txnotify=/path/to/fifo   versus   bitcoind -txnotify=3 3> /path/to/fifo ? I don't really care, although I think the most common case will be a fifo instead of writing directly to a socket....
 659 2012-11-08 17:07:23 <sipa> gavinandresen: you can always use -txnotify=/proc/self/fd/3 3>/path/to/fifo :)
 660 2012-11-08 17:07:30 <sipa> with the first syntax
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 662 2012-11-08 17:07:43 <kinlo> I prefer filenames too
 663 2012-11-08 17:07:46 <sipa> at least on linux
 664 2012-11-08 17:07:46 <kjj_> gavinandresen: I was actually thinking just -notifypipe=BOOL
 665 2012-11-08 17:08:08 <kjj_> if true, it opens a named pipe in the data dir, where everything else already is
 666 2012-11-08 17:08:22 <gavinandresen> sipa: nifty, I'm learning all sorts of tricks today
 667 2012-11-08 17:08:45 <gavinandresen> kjj_: NACK, path to named pipe should be given as a command-line arg
 668 2012-11-08 17:09:19 <kjj_> heh.  that was my first plan, but when I started looking, I noticed how easy it would be to just make it boolean.  :)
 669 2012-11-08 17:10:17 da2ce7_d has joined
 670 2012-11-08 17:10:27 <gavinandresen> kinlo: RE: remembering stuff when the fwrite buffer fills up:  meh.  that makes two buffers full of stuff you're writing (the stdio fwrite buffer and application buffer), which seems like a bad idea to me.
 671 2012-11-08 17:11:07 <gavinandresen> kinlo: typical failure will be "process I'm writing to dies, so writes fail, and never comes back because it is 4am and everybody who can fix it is asleep"
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 673 2012-11-08 17:12:43 <kjj_> looks like a call to poll() is the way to go
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 676 2012-11-08 17:13:30 <kinlo> gavinandresen: I was more talking about a write() -  unbuffered, you will fill up the tcp buffer in the kernel
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 679 2012-11-08 17:14:36 <gavinandresen> kinlo: okey doke.  I was assuming a stdio fwrite() so you get buffering for free.
 680 2012-11-08 17:14:39 <kinlo> gavinandresen: and it's common to do it that way, the application might be able to prioritize other tasks or stop generating data to be sent or something...
 681 2012-11-08 17:15:51 <kinlo> btw, there is a clear distinction you can make here: a failed write versus a write that has not been done because it would block
 682 2012-11-08 17:15:59 <kinlo> you will need to handle failed writes as normal
 683 2012-11-08 17:16:18 <kinlo> you do get different error messages
 684 2012-11-08 17:16:58 <gavinandresen> I'm saying in this case "failed" and "would block" should be treated the same: write error to debug.log and go on about your business.
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 686 2012-11-08 17:17:47 <sipa> gavinandresen: pipes have a kernel-level 4 KiB buffer too, iirc
 687 2012-11-08 17:18:23 <kinlo> look at irc: regular irc server has a buffer of let's say 16Kb.  if you as a client do not process your data fast enough so you exceed that buffer of 16kb, you are disconnected with the error message Excess Flood
 688 2012-11-08 17:18:31 <kinlo> it makes sense to do it that way
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 690 2012-11-08 17:20:03 <kjj_> is "a" the proper mode for a pipe instead of "w" ?
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 692 2012-11-08 17:25:16 <kjj_> lol.  seems that even fopen() will block on a pipe until the other end is ready
 693 2012-11-08 17:26:07 <kinlo> possibly, that's probably why all network code uses the lower level calls to bind/connect/open instead
 694 2012-11-08 17:26:57 <kjj_> that seems to suggest that we need a new thread, and a wrapper function that can exit if the fd isn't open yet
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 696 2012-11-08 17:27:33 <kinlo> or just use the lower level cases instead of those that start with f
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 698 2012-11-08 17:30:40 <kjj_> heh.  with open() and O_WRONLY, it can either succeed if the reader is already connected, block if you don't specify O_NONBLOCK, or fail.  I guess that can work.
 699 2012-11-08 17:31:18 <kjj_> so, we can just fall through on failure
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 703 2012-11-08 17:37:47 <kjj_> hmm.  open() and poll() actually ended up being pretty easy.  now to see if it compiles and works...
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 705 2012-11-08 17:41:17 <kjj_> by the way, I'm using a single pipe for this, with different notification messages depending on the context.  As in "Block <hash>" or "Wallet transaction <hash>"
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 707 2012-11-08 17:42:28 <kjj_> if we imagine future expansion of the sorts of things people might want to use it for, maybe JSON objects would be a better idea
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 716 2012-11-08 18:04:48 <midnightmagic> wow. might have just lost a hot mining wallet worth 167 bitcoins.
 717 2012-11-08 18:05:03 <midnightmagic> machine rebooted, come up "unknown filesystem" "grub rescue>"
 718 2012-11-08 18:08:09 <midnightmagic> i guess that means the hdd at least isn't failing to respond.
 719 2012-11-08 18:08:55 <gavinandresen> bitcoind/Bitcoin-Qt needs a better default wallet backup mechanism....
 720 2012-11-08 18:09:55 <midnightmagic> i have been pretty diligent about wallet backups, but in this particular case I'd recently wanted to flush out all non-compressed keys in the wallet and so I ran through the whole old set of them, but for that particular wallet I'd neglected backing it up subsequent to that. :(
 721 2012-11-08 18:11:00 <midnightmagic> and of course i have my stupid p2pool mod which runs through a randomized set of fresh addresses rather than mining just to one address.
 722 2012-11-08 18:11:27 <gavinandresen> sounds like something I'd do.  we need a better default, idiot-proof (because we're all idiots sometimes) backup mechanism....
 723 2012-11-08 18:11:37 <midnightmagic> thank you for not mocking me. :)
 724 2012-11-08 18:11:42 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: it's probably recoverable. (not that it matters for your backup comments)
 725 2012-11-08 18:12:09 <sipa> *DING*
 726 2012-11-08 18:12:16 maaku has joined
 727 2012-11-08 18:12:40 <gavinandresen> Official Meeting Time ?
 728 2012-11-08 18:12:44 <midnightmagic> yeah, i haven't given up yet. I have a nice little hard drive recovery station i've set up for friends and I suspect i'll be able to recover it. just.. not remotely.
 729 2012-11-08 18:12:55 <gavinandresen> Somebody read the minutes of the last meeting....  (KIDDING)
 730 2012-11-08 18:12:57 * midnightmagic pipes down.
 731 2012-11-08 18:13:34 * sipa pokes aroun
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 733 2012-11-08 18:14:00 <gmaxwell> Minutes of the last meeting:
 734 2012-11-08 18:14:01 <gmaxwell> segmentation violation
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 737 2012-11-08 18:14:57 <gavinandresen> So... BIP process.  I think we need somebody to take over the BIP editor role from genjix
 738 2012-11-08 18:15:14 <sipa> agree
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 740 2012-11-08 18:15:32 <gavinandresen> Self-assigning BIP numbers is fine with me, as long as there is somebody to weed out REALLY badly thought out submissions
 741 2012-11-08 18:16:07 <gmaxwell> I'm willing. I assume all it will involve is advising number conflicts and deflecting less obviously fine stuff to the lists for discussion.
 742 2012-11-08 18:16:33 <gavinandresen> Great, I think you'd make a great BIP editor, gmaxwell
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 744 2012-11-08 18:17:02 <sipa> yes - no need to do heavy editing like judging whether something is good enough or not - just weed out obviously wrong/meaningless things
 745 2012-11-08 18:17:13 <gmaxwell> (Also, I'll only have about half attention for this meeting today: I'm currently at the IETF meeting)
 746 2012-11-08 18:17:42 <gavinandresen> Do we need a github.com/BIPS repo as the canonical place for BIPS, or is the wiki good enough?
 747 2012-11-08 18:17:48 <gmaxwell> Right. More advisory than actually editorial. Let the list convince people their ideas are crazy or approve the crazy stuff for BIPs.
 748 2012-11-08 18:18:21 <sipa> there used to be genjix/bips.git on github, but it's outdated and i don't think anyone considers it to be the canonical repository anymore
 749 2012-11-08 18:18:28 <gavinandresen> err, github.com/bitcoin/BIPS ....
 750 2012-11-08 18:18:29 <Luke-Jr> Might make sense to be more strict that stuff get posted to the list, at least as a summary, before getting a BIP #
 751 2012-11-08 18:19:33 <sipa> people will browse the wiki and not a github repository
 752 2012-11-08 18:19:33 <Luke-Jr> how practical is it to back up MediaWiki data?
 753 2012-11-08 18:19:46 <sipa> but a wiki has the disadvantage that anyone can just create pages
 754 2012-11-08 18:19:48 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you can easily extract the history for single pages as xml.
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 756 2012-11-08 18:20:27 <midnightmagic> Who runs the host for the wiki and is it sure enough to be trusted longer-term with the BIP/development discussion data?
 757 2012-11-08 18:20:29 <Luke-Jr> sipa: that is also an advantage
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 759 2012-11-08 18:20:37 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: MagicalTux
 760 2012-11-08 18:20:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: that could be changed... e.g. if BIPs were moved to a BIP namespace then it could be set so only some users could create pages in that namespace.. but I dunno how much twiddling anyone wants to do with the wiki.
 761 2012-11-08 18:20:48 <Luke-Jr> MagicalTux: can you set gmaxwell mod for BIP purposes?
 762 2012-11-08 18:20:54 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: make backups.
 763 2012-11-08 18:21:13 <sipa> the discussion should be on the mailing anyway, imho
 764 2012-11-08 18:21:42 <gavinandresen> aside:  moving the wiki from under the wing of Mt.Gox is something I want to talk about sometime in the next couple of months.
 765 2012-11-08 18:21:50 <Luke-Jr> sipa: perhaps come to a quick consensus on IRC then continue on ML? ie, get the "long" part over with in realtime but leave room for further discussion if necessary
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 767 2012-11-08 18:22:17 <gavinandresen> sipa:  Yes, I think consensus here then proposing "here's what we think should happen" to the ML is the right thing to do.
 768 2012-11-08 18:22:21 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: ideally it would have public full site dumps like wikipedia has. (http://dumps.wikimedia.org/enwiki/20121001/)
 769 2012-11-08 18:22:36 <sipa> Luke-Jr: sure
 770 2012-11-08 18:23:08 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I agree..
 771 2012-11-08 18:23:27 <gavinandresen> Ok, so to summarize: we're proposing that gmaxwell take over the light gatekeeper duties from genjix, wiki becomes canonical place for BIPS (locked down if that becomes necessary, definitely backed up)
 772 2012-11-08 18:23:50 <midnightmagic> gavinandresen: Did you have anything in mind of where might be a good replacement site?
 773 2012-11-08 18:23:53 pooler has joined
 774 2012-11-08 18:24:09 <gmaxwell> We can also have edits to bips show up in here or in the commits channel.
 775 2012-11-08 18:24:17 <ThomasV_> any news from genjix?
 776 2012-11-08 18:24:33 <gavinandresen> midnightmagic: Foundation is giving us (core dev team) a grant for servers, the discussion will be what to put on them....
 777 2012-11-08 18:24:41 <midnightmagic> very nice.
 778 2012-11-08 18:24:46 <BlueMatt> aside: why does it seem that the -commits channel has been dead for some time?
 779 2012-11-08 18:24:47 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 780 2012-11-08 18:24:49 thebeesknees has joined
 781 2012-11-08 18:24:56 <sipa> haven't heard from genjix since the conference in london
 782 2012-11-08 18:25:10 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I was told that the bot died....
 783 2012-11-08 18:25:15 <midnightmagic> BlueMatt: Perhaps that was the broken CIA bot death?
 784 2012-11-08 18:25:22 <gavinandresen> yeah, that's the one....
 785 2012-11-08 18:25:26 <BlueMatt> hmm...ok Ill look into it later
 786 2012-11-08 18:25:30 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: CIA is dead dead
 787 2012-11-08 18:25:41 <BlueMatt> ah, ok, well then Ill fix the rss thinggy
 788 2012-11-08 18:25:47 <Luke-Jr> cool
 789 2012-11-08 18:25:48 <BlueMatt> nanotube: is the rss thinggy through gribble still up?
 790 2012-11-08 18:26:11 <midnightmagic> lol, yea like so dead some guy (esr I think) had to reverse it again just to figure out how it worked.
 791 2012-11-08 18:26:49 <gavinandresen> So: 0.8 release: consensus seems to be NOT to do a full feature freeze yet, but get bloom filters in and have no more major changes.
 792 2012-11-08 18:27:13 <BlueMatt> re: bloom filters: merged sipa's stuff, working on adding more unit tests
 793 2012-11-08 18:27:21 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I thought it'd be nice to see the p2p networking rewrite in, but that's major and I guess could just as well be in 0.9 at the rate it's going
 794 2012-11-08 18:27:27 optimator_ has joined
 795 2012-11-08 18:27:48 <gavinandresen> who is doing a p2p networking rewrite? I don't think I've heard about that work....
 796 2012-11-08 18:28:04 <Luke-Jr> I don't know that anyone is doing it yet, but we desperately need it.
 797 2012-11-08 18:28:22 <Luke-Jr> the current code is completely synchronous
 798 2012-11-08 18:28:24 <sipa> you can't plan a feature without anyone writing it
 799 2012-11-08 18:28:47 optimator has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 800 2012-11-08 18:29:07 deadserious has joined
 801 2012-11-08 18:29:16 <gavinandresen> yup... my priority list would still look like "scaling and wallet security/backup" and... well, not much else
 802 2012-11-08 18:29:30 <Luke-Jr> scaling involves the rewrite ;)
 803 2012-11-08 18:29:31 deadserious is now known as Guest86638
 804 2012-11-08 18:29:44 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i disagree
 805 2012-11-08 18:30:09 <sipa> surely a rewrite would help, but even just moving processing of blocks to separate threads would offload the message handling thread massively
 806 2012-11-08 18:30:10 <gavinandresen> me too, I haven't noticed any issues dealing with transaction load once I'm caught up to the chain
 807 2012-11-08 18:30:14 <gmaxwell> There are a number of somewhat low hanging things visible now that ultraprune has exposed.
 808 2012-11-08 18:30:28 <Luke-Jr> sipa: while the client downloads/uploads a block to/from a single peer, all other peers are completely ignored
 809 2012-11-08 18:30:34 <sipa> i know
 810 2012-11-08 18:30:38 <gmaxwell> E.g. block download (not just initial but for hosts that have been offline a few days) matter much more now.
 811 2012-11-08 18:30:57 <sipa> i don't disagree that it would help, but it's far from the most pressing issue, imho
 812 2012-11-08 18:31:36 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: this improvement is a competative advantage for miners. Lets try to expand the number of people working on bitcoind by getting someone else to hack on it.
 813 2012-11-08 18:32:11 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: not really, as it matters on the relay nodes, not the mining nodes
 814 2012-11-08 18:32:37 <sipa> my TODO list is now finishing ultraprune's leftovers, and then deterministic wallets i guess
 815 2012-11-08 18:32:38 TD has joined
 816 2012-11-08 18:32:39 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: In any case. Need code first. The goal there is well defined.
 817 2012-11-08 18:32:52 <Luke-Jr> yep, like I said, might as well wait for 0.9
 818 2012-11-08 18:33:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: if you want a stopgap, writing a very fast block relayer that just does spv validation based on picocoin may be a useful short term thing.
 819 2012-11-08 18:34:16 <BlueMatt> bitcoin backbone!
 820 2012-11-08 18:34:29 <gavinandresen> So, looking at 0.8....   what can we do to encourage testing?  Obviously getting auto-upgrade working.  Nightly builds would be great.
 821 2012-11-08 18:34:58 <BlueMatt> as always, nightlies are at: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/ws/
 822 2012-11-08 18:35:20 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: awesome, when we're ready we need to publicize those more.
 823 2012-11-08 18:35:31 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: A point which is more development testing than user testing centric:  at the moment I'm thinking of putting up a ultraprune centric testing checklist on the wiki. I assume if I start such a think someone will dump more stuff into it?
 824 2012-11-08 18:35:38 Guest86638 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 825 2012-11-08 18:35:45 <nanotube> BlueMatt: i havent done anything with it, so hypothetically should still be up.... let's check
 826 2012-11-08 18:36:00 <sipa> i thought about announcing "demo builds" on the forums, but want auto-upgrade working first
 827 2012-11-08 18:36:19 <BlueMatt> nanotube: na, cant be...either its broken on the url or smth or its down in gribble (it should be displaying pull reqs in -commits)
 828 2012-11-08 18:36:19 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yes, I'll dump more stuff into it.
 829 2012-11-08 18:36:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: instead do builds that stop working after X weeks?
 830 2012-11-08 18:36:56 <nanotube> BlueMatt: ah it seems the rss check thread is hung.
 831 2012-11-08 18:37:20 <nanotube> BlueMatt: guess it'll fix itself next time the bot is restarted... not sure i wanna kill the bot just now. :)
 832 2012-11-08 18:37:33 <gmaxwell> I had some problems on testnet where broken ultraprune nodes overpowered my nodes that inserted an older-ultraprune killing block. (I forked and overpowered them and got it back into the chain)
 833 2012-11-08 18:37:46 <sipa> gavinandresen: any idea when foundation hardware would be available?
 834 2012-11-08 18:37:53 <gavinandresen> I like the idea of nagging users to upgrade if they're running an ancient build.  I actually kind of like that idea for releases, too (nag after 1 year or something....)
 835 2012-11-08 18:38:00 <BlueMatt> nanotube: heh, ok then
 836 2012-11-08 18:38:43 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: there is an outstanding auto-update pull...
 837 2012-11-08 18:38:59 <gavinandresen> sipa: could happen very quickly, Foundation has the bitcoins.  I did some research into bitcoin-accepting service providers....
 838 2012-11-08 18:40:54 <gmaxwell> I'd really like to get the coverage reports I've done from time to time running on a CI server. (It's easy to run them from Jenkins, I do it on other stuff; I just haven't wanted to add more work to the already slow pull tester stuff)
 839 2012-11-08 18:41:51 <gavinandresen> Somebody want to volunteer to propose exactly what server to get, where ?
 840 2012-11-08 18:42:11 <gavinandresen> lemme go find the budget numbers....
 841 2012-11-08 18:42:15 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, high security server or something else
 842 2012-11-08 18:42:17 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: if you have the time, putting it in a pull for the scripts that jenkins/pull-tester runs would be much appreciated https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/test-scripts
 843 2012-11-08 18:42:36 <phantomcircuit> for hosting bitcoin.org ?
 844 2012-11-08 18:42:54 <sipa> CI server?
 845 2012-11-08 18:42:57 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: server will be for the jenkins pull-testing and nightly builds, probably will be a new DNS seed
 846 2012-11-08 18:43:00 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: What did your research come up with? I'd probably suggest we just go with the most reputable/organized provider for low-risk stuff.
 847 2012-11-08 18:43:02 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: for various things (incl jenkins/pull-tester, among many things)
 848 2012-11-08 18:43:10 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: or maybe diversify if there's enough options
 849 2012-11-08 18:43:20 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: seems to me getting a dedicated vm server self-managed would be the best security/cost option
 850 2012-11-08 18:43:26 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it will further slow down the execution (factor of 2 if your IO is fast?), and creates a ton of temporary data on disk. If you're okay with that, I'll send a patch.
 851 2012-11-08 18:43:33 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 852 2012-11-08 18:43:54 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well the idea was to get the patch written and not merge it yet until it gets better hardware ;)
 853 2012-11-08 18:43:57 <gavinandresen> My research into bitcoin-accepting dedicated server companies:  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmMi4Whh8u5HdGxmT0ZoUXZSSDExLWZWRzFMdmt5U1E
 854 2012-11-08 18:44:06 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: ah okay. sure.
 855 2012-11-08 18:44:15 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: that being said, we're almost certain to need a locked-down cage at some point, so it might make sense to plan for that in advance even if we don't get it now (ie, pick somewhere that has them available)
 856 2012-11-08 18:44:31 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, what's the GLBSE note on bitvps?
 857 2012-11-08 18:44:56 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: I think they're a GLBSE-listed company, which is a negative in my opinion.
 858 2012-11-08 18:45:02 <phantomcircuit> i've heard good things about cinfu and snelservers
 859 2012-11-08 18:45:09 <gavinandresen> (well, were, not are....)
 860 2012-11-08 18:45:21 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: FWIW, you can get a discount at BitVPS via Eligius; maybe could get even a better deal by talking to rg/grubles directly
 861 2012-11-08 18:45:27 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, im pretty sure that isn't a major part of their business
 862 2012-11-08 18:45:56 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: 12 GB RAM doesn't sound like much these days, especially if the plan is to run VMs on it
 863 2012-11-08 18:46:19 <BlueMatt> (CI building bitcoin eats tons of ram...)
 864 2012-11-08 18:46:37 <sipa> CI?
 865 2012-11-08 18:46:45 <gmaxwell> continuous integration
 866 2012-11-08 18:46:49 <gmaxwell> What jenkins does.
 867 2012-11-08 18:46:49 <sipa> oh
 868 2012-11-08 18:46:59 <sipa> sure
 869 2012-11-08 18:47:06 <BlueMatt> s/CI//
 870 2012-11-08 18:47:13 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, im betting rg can find a dedicated box with > 12GB of ram if someone is willing to pay for it
 871 2012-11-08 18:47:24 <gavinandresen> renting more RAM is certainly possible.  Getting a discount would be spiffy....
 872 2012-11-08 18:47:50 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: well we need peak-compile-usage * cores ram.
 873 2012-11-08 18:48:03 <gmaxwell> Since I can build it on my 2gb laptop, we shouldn't need more than 2gb*cores.
 874 2012-11-08 18:48:06 <phantomcircuit> although i think you'll find that if you're running mostly identical guests ksm works fairly well
 875 2012-11-08 18:48:12 <gavinandresen> Do we care if the server is US or someplace else?  Diversifying to another country appealed to me
 876 2012-11-08 18:48:18 <Diablo-D3> MOAR RAMS
 877 2012-11-08 18:48:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: * 2 (jenkins/pull-tester often run in parallel)
 878 2012-11-08 18:48:45 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I mean I can run a 1 core build on my laptop, and we just shouldn't have more executors than cores.
 879 2012-11-08 18:49:27 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, depends on if Im lazy, if its low on ram, sure I can limit it...or just be lazy and let them both eat full core count and let them keep running parallel
 880 2012-11-08 18:49:29 <Diablo-D3> heh, get this
 881 2012-11-08 18:49:37 <Diablo-D3> you know the G34 socket?
 882 2012-11-08 18:50:00 <Diablo-D3> up to 4 sockets on a board, 128gb per board for 512 total
 883 2012-11-08 18:50:02 luke-jr_ has joined
 884 2012-11-08 18:50:19 Luke-Jr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 885 2012-11-08 18:50:23 <Diablo-D3> enough rams? :D
 886 2012-11-08 18:50:57 <sipa> http://www.dfi.ch/en/servers-hosting/dedicated-server.html  <-- switzerland?
 887 2012-11-08 18:51:08 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, the primary issue with all the dedicated server providers that accept bitcoins is that their ram pricing is well above market
 888 2012-11-08 18:51:17 <BlueMatt> sipa: I believe the goal was to pay with bitcoin
 889 2012-11-08 18:51:40 <sipa> ah, of course
 890 2012-11-08 18:51:41 <gmaxwell> in any case, more is better. I'm just saying that 12 for 6 core isn't terrible.  We could quite easily keep 16 cores busy (by adding network and disk fuzzing test cases)... but jenkins remotes wore excellently.
 891 2012-11-08 18:52:01 <luke-jr_> gmaxwell: right, but BlueMatt was talking about doing this in 1 VM on a host with more than 1
 892 2012-11-08 18:52:24 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr_, iirc the build vm is temporary
 893 2012-11-08 18:52:26 <BlueMatt> luke-jr_: in theory the others would consist of not much more than a dnsseed and maybe some hosting, so...maybe 1GB ram max
 894 2012-11-08 18:52:31 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: no
 895 2012-11-08 18:52:42 <phantomcircuit> no?
 896 2012-11-08 18:52:45 <Diablo-D3> gmax\oh
 897 2012-11-08 18:52:46 <Diablo-D3> oh
 898 2012-11-08 18:52:49 luke-jr_ is now known as Luke-Jr
 899 2012-11-08 18:52:50 <Diablo-D3> and that G34 socket?
 900 2012-11-08 18:52:57 <Diablo-D3> has those 16 core piledrivers
 901 2012-11-08 18:53:00 <phantomcircuit> i thought jenkins build a temporary vm for each build so you'd get consistent results
 902 2012-11-08 18:53:01 <Diablo-D3> so 64 cores :3
 903 2012-11-08 18:53:07 <sipa> phantomcircuit: that's gitian
 904 2012-11-08 18:53:11 kreal has quit ()
 905 2012-11-08 18:53:11 <phantomcircuit> ah
 906 2012-11-08 18:53:13 <phantomcircuit> right
 907 2012-11-08 18:53:25 * phantomcircuit goes back to fiddling with stuff
 908 2012-11-08 18:53:25 <Luke-Jr> jenkins should probably use gitian at some point, but meh
 909 2012-11-08 18:53:29 <gavinandresen> Foundation grant is 500 BTC which we should plan on lasting us for the next year, and needs to pay for servers, SSL certs, and code-signing cert.
 910 2012-11-08 18:53:54 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: yes, it should...wanna implement lxc for it? https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/test-scripts
 911 2012-11-08 18:54:07 <gavinandresen> Rough budget is: https://docs.google.com/a/bitcoinfoundation.org/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmMi4Whh8u5HdEpTejNQbm9rR0Z2clNtTVMtSGJ1bHc#gid=0
 912 2012-11-08 18:54:23 <sipa> if not, just separately running gitian for dailies (not necessarily pulltests) would be nice
 913 2012-11-08 18:54:39 <sipa> as gitian is probably more resource intensive than just building?
 914 2012-11-08 18:54:58 <BlueMatt> no, but it needs kvm support
 915 2012-11-08 18:55:02 <BlueMatt> (well, used to, now its possible)
 916 2012-11-08 18:55:10 <BlueMatt> I just havent looked at the lxc stuff
 917 2012-11-08 18:56:10 <BlueMatt> re: unmetered 1Gbps...I can leave servers on in the cs building with that, if necessary...
 918 2012-11-08 18:56:34 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: in your list of things on it.. we should have a dnsseed and a git mirror. (even if we don't bother to make it public)
 919 2012-11-08 18:56:48 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: agreed
 920 2012-11-08 18:56:53 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, startssl would be cheaper for the certificate
 921 2012-11-08 18:57:12 <phantomcircuit> i think
 922 2012-11-08 18:57:17 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: but...I cant see any of those + web hosting being > 1GB in total
 923 2012-11-08 18:57:25 <gmaxwell> We just switched Xiph.Org to a startssl wildcard and it works well. But I assumed gavin's choice was influenced by bitcoin payments.
 924 2012-11-08 18:57:33 <phantomcircuit> at the very least it would be cheaper if you ever needed another certificate
 925 2012-11-08 18:57:48 <BlueMatt> do we own btc.org?
 926 2012-11-08 18:57:56 <phantomcircuit> you can buy a rapidssl cert using bitcoins?
 927 2012-11-08 18:58:02 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: yes, Bitcoin Foundation owns btc.org
 928 2012-11-08 18:58:05 <BlueMatt> ok
 929 2012-11-08 18:58:06 maqr has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 930 2012-11-08 18:58:32 <gavinandresen> certificates I assume we'll have to convert to dollars to buy
 931 2012-11-08 18:58:36 <phantomcircuit> only problem with startssl is they're pretty much constantly under ddos
 932 2012-11-08 18:58:50 <drizztbsd> Registrant Email:roger@memorydealers.com
 933 2012-11-08 18:58:51 <drizztbsd> uh?
 934 2012-11-08 18:58:51 <phantomcircuit> in that case startssl is definitely the better choice
 935 2012-11-08 18:59:12 <gavinandresen> yes, roger bought it for the Foundation
 936 2012-11-08 18:59:28 * phantomcircuit grumbles
 937 2012-11-08 18:59:39 <midnightmagic> <3 new version of bitcoind's speed of block download/sync
 938 2012-11-08 18:59:46 <drizztbsd> Usually I use cacert, but Windows does not accept it by default ;(
 939 2012-11-08 19:00:01 <drizztbsd> neither Android
 940 2012-11-08 19:00:03 <BlueMatt> drizztbsd: nothing accepts it by default...
 941 2012-11-08 19:00:08 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, 120 USD @ startssl will get a personal -> organization validation which would allow for unlimited issuance of certificates in the name of the bitcoin foundation
 942 2012-11-08 19:00:12 <drizztbsd> archlinux and debian
 943 2012-11-08 19:00:14 <drizztbsd> :)
 944 2012-11-08 19:00:16 <drizztbsd> maybe ubuntu
 945 2012-11-08 19:00:30 <drizztbsd> 120$/year!
 946 2012-11-08 19:00:36 <midnightmagic> why bother with a centralized-issue ssl cert again?
 947 2012-11-08 19:00:47 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: because web browsers.
 948 2012-11-08 19:00:57 <sipa> because reality
 949 2012-11-08 19:00:57 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: cool, can you email me details and I'll look at doing that?
 950 2012-11-08 19:01:02 <drizztbsd> do you need ssl? :P
 951 2012-11-08 19:01:07 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, also comes with code signing certificates which could be used to sign the bitcoin executables distributed on bitcoin.org
 952 2012-11-08 19:01:13 <Luke-Jr> drizztbsd: you'd prefer no security at all? :P
 953 2012-11-08 19:01:28 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: even better, send me links. I'm all for saving money.
 954 2012-11-08 19:01:31 <drizztbsd> bitcoin website does not have "reserved" data
 955 2012-11-08 19:01:41 <gmaxwell> use a selfsigned cert = nasty you are being 0wned notice, which is the same one you get when there is a real MITM.  And no ssl means its very easy to substitute binaries since _no one_ checks the signatures.
 956 2012-11-08 19:01:52 <Luke-Jr> drizztbsd: SSL prevents someone from sending you different data
 957 2012-11-08 19:01:58 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: No I mean what's the ssl protecting that needs the assurance of the little safe icon?
 958 2012-11-08 19:02:10 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: downloads.
 959 2012-11-08 19:02:10 <drizztbsd> oh for mitm
 960 2012-11-08 19:02:21 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: downloads from where?
 961 2012-11-08 19:02:30 <drizztbsd> you can still do mitm using http://www.thoughtcrime.org/software/sslstrip/ :P
 962 2012-11-08 19:02:32 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin.org doesn't (and shouldn't IMO) have downloads
 963 2012-11-08 19:02:38 <gmaxwell> I assume we're going to move downloads to bitcoin.org.
 964 2012-11-08 19:02:40 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: I guess the extra assurance so people don't have to verify signatures anymore..
 965 2012-11-08 19:02:44 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, sent
 966 2012-11-08 19:02:49 <drizztbsd> you can still use github or sourceforce (https) :)
 967 2012-11-08 19:02:50 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: thanks.
 968 2012-11-08 19:03:00 <gmaxwell> Because sourforge is just a really attractive target for exploitation.
 969 2012-11-08 19:03:03 <midnightmagic> drizztbsd: That's mickey0mouse though.
 970 2012-11-08 19:03:13 <phantomcircuit> drizztbsd, sslstrip doesn't work unless the user is ignoring whether it's https or not
 971 2012-11-08 19:03:25 <phantomcircuit> and it really doesn't work if you have httpseverywhere installed
 972 2012-11-08 19:03:30 <drizztbsd> he's the same user that does not check the signature :P
 973 2012-11-08 19:03:37 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, then we probably need to go the cage route :/
 974 2012-11-08 19:03:45 <phantomcircuit> drizztbsd, those are very different groups of users
 975 2012-11-08 19:03:50 <Luke-Jr> a normal dedi isn't going to be as secure as SF I think
 976 2012-11-08 19:03:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I don't know about that. It's not like sourceforge's infrastructure is well secured!
 977 2012-11-08 19:04:05 <phantomcircuit> checking for https and checking that the signature is correct are not even close to being the same class of attack
 978 2012-11-08 19:04:05 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no? :|
 979 2012-11-08 19:04:19 <Luke-Jr> I'd have expected SF was big enough that they only use cages
 980 2012-11-08 19:04:31 <sipa> they have mirrors everywhere
 981 2012-11-08 19:04:36 <gmaxwell> yup.
 982 2012-11-08 19:04:38 <drizztbsd> I check the signature when I build the archlinux official packages ;)
 983 2012-11-08 19:04:40 <sipa> i doubt those are all cagrd
 984 2012-11-08 19:04:43 <gavinandresen> I think the first step is detection/alert of corrupted downloads. We need that in any case.
 985 2012-11-08 19:04:57 * BlueMatt votes for gitian-based auto-updates
 986 2012-11-08 19:05:23 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ... but after we code-sign binaries on Mac/Windows....
 987 2012-11-08 19:05:26 <sipa> meh python executables
 988 2012-11-08 19:05:42 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: there was a post on the forum that it is easy to work around in (at least) windows
 989 2012-11-08 19:05:52 <gmaxwell> In any case, we're getting defocused now.
 990 2012-11-08 19:05:53 <drizztbsd> BlueMatt: using a better system than https://gist.github.com/806265
 991 2012-11-08 19:06:05 <gavinandresen> So, all of this makes for a pretty heft infrastructure TODO.  And yes, lets focus
 992 2012-11-08 19:06:26 <BlueMatt> we finished the agenda a while ago, no?
 993 2012-11-08 19:06:32 <gavinandresen> Step 1:  decide on a hosting company or companies and server config.
 994 2012-11-08 19:06:43 <gmaxwell> drizztbsd: HSTS makes downgrading attacks pointless.
 995 2012-11-08 19:06:57 <sipa> hsts?
 996 2012-11-08 19:07:18 <sipa> oh, got it
 997 2012-11-08 19:07:23 <gavinandresen> HSTS is the "only use https to contact me?"
 998 2012-11-08 19:07:29 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 999 2012-11-08 19:07:40 <gavinandresen> right, yes, that's a Good Idea.
1000 2012-11-08 19:07:50 <drizztbsd> and obliviusly it does not work on IE
1001 2012-11-08 19:07:52 <drizztbsd> :P
1002 2012-11-08 19:08:00 ThomasV_ has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1003 2012-11-08 19:08:03 <gmaxwell> just make sure you have a backup of the cert so when hackers wipe the site you can put it back up... (lessons learned from bitcoinica)
1004 2012-11-08 19:08:45 <gmaxwell> drizztbsd: it doesn't harm browsers that don't do it.. but roughly half the browser out there (and probably way more than half of the bitcoin users' browsers) use it.
1005 2012-11-08 19:09:53 <BlueMatt> I suppose this meeting is over, Ima go...I hope to the bloom stuff updated soon (next few days) and it should be ready for more review
1006 2012-11-08 19:10:21 <gavinandresen> ACK.  Meeting Officially Adjourned.
1007 2012-11-08 19:10:24 <Diablo-D3> http://imgur.com/gallery/YBlrZ
1008 2012-11-08 19:10:41 <sipa>  while we're at it: acks on -reindex ?
1009 2012-11-08 19:10:42 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, ps i serously doubt a bootstrap.dat download server would need to be unmetered
1010 2012-11-08 19:10:45 <gmaxwell> It's great I think we actually didn't spend a moment discussing actual software. :P
1011 2012-11-08 19:10:53 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol
1012 2012-11-08 19:10:57 Lexa has joined
1013 2012-11-08 19:11:06 rg has joined
1014 2012-11-08 19:11:12 <rg> hello
1015 2012-11-08 19:11:24 <rg> i heard you guys were in need of a dedicated server.
1016 2012-11-08 19:11:27 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: 3GB per download (assuming http, not torrent) times a few thousand a month....  is a lot of bandwidth
1017 2012-11-08 19:11:30 <Luke-Jr> lol
1018 2012-11-08 19:11:36 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: in any case, we don't have the budget for that
1019 2012-11-08 19:11:45 <Diablo-D3> ha ha rg
1020 2012-11-08 19:11:53 <rg> you can talk to the sales guy at my company
1021 2012-11-08 19:11:56 <rg> if youd like
1022 2012-11-08 19:12:00 <Diablo-D3> quit potching the customers I wish I had :<
1023 2012-11-08 19:12:07 <rg> Diablo-D3: im working for enzu now
1024 2012-11-08 19:12:18 <Diablo-D3> rg: go fuck yourself.
1025 2012-11-08 19:12:21 <rg> just think, had you gone through with it
1026 2012-11-08 19:12:26 <rg> you wouldve got to complain directly at me
1027 2012-11-08 19:12:34 <Luke-Jr> rg: do you guys have cages available btw?
1028 2012-11-08 19:12:40 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell, sipa: do NO do business with enzu
1029 2012-11-08 19:12:41 <rg> luke-jr: yeah in los angeles
1030 2012-11-08 19:12:48 <Diablo-D3> they're the fucks that deleted cia.vc out of spite
1031 2012-11-08 19:12:55 <rg> Diablo-D3: fud
1032 2012-11-08 19:13:18 <gavinandresen> rg: can you email me contact information?  gavin@bitcoinfoundation.org
1033 2012-11-08 19:13:26 <rg> sure gavin
1034 2012-11-08 19:13:29 <rg> he's actually online right now
1035 2012-11-08 19:13:33 <rg> you want me to have him contact you directly?
1036 2012-11-08 19:13:37 <gavinandresen> rg: sure
1037 2012-11-08 19:13:37 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: seriously, do NOT do business with them
1038 2012-11-08 19:13:46 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: they're incompetent at best, scam artists at worst
1039 2012-11-08 19:13:48 * phantomcircuit grabs the popcorn
1040 2012-11-08 19:13:51 <rg> diablo-d3's unrecommendation should show you that you SHOULD use them
1041 2012-11-08 19:13:55 <gavinandresen> Diablo-D3: email me your concerns
1042 2012-11-08 19:13:55 <rg> as he's a major troll
1043 2012-11-08 19:14:01 <drizztbsd> I used to use ovh servers
1044 2012-11-08 19:14:05 <rg> gavinandresen: diablo has no real concerns
1045 2012-11-08 19:14:06 <drizztbsd> unlimited bandwidth
1046 2012-11-08 19:14:13 <rg> and the concerns he has , he has no proof of anything
1047 2012-11-08 19:14:22 <gavinandresen> rg: ok.  I don't want to get into it here.
1048 2012-11-08 19:14:34 <gavinandresen> (whatever "it" is)
1049 2012-11-08 19:14:35 <rg> yeah me nither
1050 2012-11-08 19:14:36 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: I just said them above, they deleted cia.vc, one of the FOSS community's biggest resources, and something Bitcoin itself used, out of spite over an employee quitting
1051 2012-11-08 19:14:42 <phantomcircuit> drizztbsd, lol "unlimited" except you can never get past like 5% utilization ;)
1052 2012-11-08 19:14:44 <gavinandresen> Diablo-D3: email
1053 2012-11-08 19:14:51 <rg> lol
1054 2012-11-08 19:14:56 maqr has joined
1055 2012-11-08 19:15:00 <rg> diablo: message me the rest
1056 2012-11-08 19:15:02 <rg> i wanna hear the story
1057 2012-11-08 19:15:43 * rg loves to compare what really happened vs what people are saying happened
1058 2012-11-08 19:15:51 <rg> and if you have doubts, just search webhostingtalk
1059 2012-11-08 19:16:02 <rg> or ask the other 10,000 customers who're happy
1060 2012-11-08 19:16:11 <Diablo-D3> rg: webhostingtalk my ass, we both know thats a troll forum
1061 2012-11-08 19:16:18 <rg> LOL
1062 2012-11-08 19:16:18 SomeoneWeird has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1063 2012-11-08 19:16:29 <phantomcircuit> this isn't the appropriate place for this :)
1064 2012-11-08 19:16:48 <drizztbsd> phantomcircuit: I don't know, I don't have many traffic :P
1065 2012-11-08 19:17:03 <drizztbsd> (except for fuckPsn, but I use github)
1066 2012-11-08 19:17:09 <phantomcircuit> drizztbsd, you cant even get 1gbps between ovh servers in the same dc ffs
1067 2012-11-08 19:18:50 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: hey, you know where genjix been? :P
1068 2012-11-08 19:18:58 _W_ has joined
1069 2012-11-08 19:19:14 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, somewhere in london last i checked
1070 2012-11-08 19:19:43 <phantomcircuit> he's avoiding irc and friends because he's realized he wasted a huge % of his time just chatting with people about nothing
1071 2012-11-08 19:20:07 <phantomcircuit> he responds to emails usually
1072 2012-11-08 19:20:36 <rg> lol
1073 2012-11-08 19:20:41 <rg> i was wondering whath appened to him
1074 2012-11-08 19:20:46 <rg> he prety much just dropped off the face of the earyth
1075 2012-11-08 19:21:14 <phantomcircuit> he got tired of arguing with people about things he doesn't actually care about
1076 2012-11-08 19:21:21 <phantomcircuit> so he just stopped being available for arguments
1077 2012-11-08 19:21:29 <Luke-Jr> lol
1078 2012-11-08 19:21:46 <phantomcircuit> not a bad plan
1079 2012-11-08 19:22:24 D34TH has joined
1080 2012-11-08 19:23:28 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
1081 2012-11-08 19:24:12 <rg> lol
1082 2012-11-08 19:24:22 <rg> sometimes i wish i never /join #bitcoin-*
1083 2012-11-08 19:25:06 maaku has joined
1084 2012-11-08 19:25:19 <sipa> why?
1085 2012-11-08 19:25:56 Lexa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1086 2012-11-08 19:26:11 slush1 has joined
1087 2012-11-08 19:27:46 <phantomcircuit> sipa, huge massive timesink unless you are very good at keeping yourself focused
1088 2012-11-08 19:30:25 slush1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1093 2012-11-08 19:37:04 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1094 2012-11-08 19:39:15 <midnightmagic> perhaps there're more reasons for genjix to have stopped keeping in touch with the people on irc?
1095 2012-11-08 19:44:10 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, he told me because it's a waste of time
1096 2012-11-08 19:44:17 <phantomcircuit> and experience agrees with his assessment
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1099 2012-11-08 19:48:01 <jgarzik> word
1100 2012-11-08 19:48:45 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: One merely needs to sharpen one's ignoring skills ;p
1101 2012-11-08 19:48:51 <jgarzik> then IRC is great
1102 2012-11-08 19:49:19 <sipa> /ignore *
1103 2012-11-08 19:50:18 <phantomcircuit> just smashed my head on the ceiling >.>
1104 2012-11-08 19:51:13 asa1024 has quit (Quit: asa1024)
1105 2012-11-08 19:56:09 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, sipa, gmaxwell: Sorry I missed the meeting.  Sometimes kids are demanding ;p  Re TODO: peer selection, peer selection, peer selection.  Post-ultraprune, that will be an obvious, user-facing sore point remaining.
1106 2012-11-08 19:56:16 <jgarzik> RE p2p rewrite
1107 2012-11-08 19:56:26 <jgarzik> I've been tempted to put everything under a boost.asio io_service
1108 2012-11-08 19:56:40 <sipa> i believe libcoin did that too
1109 2012-11-08 19:56:40 <jgarzik> that permits threaded and/or async P2P and RPC connections
1110 2012-11-08 19:56:44 comboy has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1111 2012-11-08 19:56:48 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: that'd be spiffy.
1112 2012-11-08 19:57:02 <jgarzik> I've already done so with https://github.com/jgarzik/rpcsrv
1113 2012-11-08 19:57:13 <jgarzik> which is a super-duper high-performance HTTP server for JSON-RPC
1114 2012-11-08 19:57:31 <jgarzik> (which is a skeleton, and has no "guts" beyond answering 'echo'-style RPCs)
1115 2012-11-08 19:57:38 <jgarzik> should be easy to adapt to bitcoin
1116 2012-11-08 19:58:03 <jgarzik> picocoin also gets by just fine without send/receive buffers
1117 2012-11-08 19:58:06 <jgarzik> bitcoind could too
1118 2012-11-08 19:58:27 <gavinandresen> is anybody running into JSON-RPC bottlenecks?  I think the unoptimized/unindexed database access is the issue with high-RPC-call services
1119 2012-11-08 19:58:44 <gavinandresen> (and I've been disappointed not to receive patches to fix that from high-RPC-call services....)
1120 2012-11-08 19:58:53 <sipa> the issue is cs_main
1121 2012-11-08 19:59:31 <jgarzik> kernel/OS buffers + a size-limited list of queued messages-to-send works great. No need for tx/rx buffers.
1122 2012-11-08 19:59:38 <jgarzik> indeed -- RPC still under One Big Lock
1123 2012-11-08 19:59:47 <jgarzik> and P2P messages hold that lock, too
1124 2012-11-08 20:00:00 <sipa> processing them, yes
1125 2012-11-08 20:00:04 <sipa> sending/receiving them, no
1126 2012-11-08 20:00:08 <jgarzik> nod
1127 2012-11-08 20:00:23 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I mentioned peer selection indirectly. :) 10:18 < gmaxwell> E.g. block download (not just initial but for hosts that have been offline a few days) matter much more now.
1128 2012-11-08 20:00:42 <sipa> yes, real solution is headers-first mode
1129 2012-11-08 20:00:52 <sipa> but probably we'll need to stop-gap solution for 0.8
1130 2012-11-08 20:01:30 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: the memory usage reductions from getting rid of buffers would be very welcome to some people.
1131 2012-11-08 20:02:02 <jgarzik> I like the "get impatient" metric.  If (a) no blocks received in past 60 seconds, and (b) you think more blocks exist "out there" (based on collective examination of nStartingHeight or whatever), then switch to new peer, request blocks.
1132 2012-11-08 20:02:40 <sipa> i may try to get peer rotation done for 0.8
1133 2012-11-08 20:02:44 <gmaxwell> starting height is a very coarse metric.
1134 2012-11-08 20:03:25 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm ... struggling with the privacy impacts of peer rotation and wondering how to weigh it against isolation risk.
1135 2012-11-08 20:04:14 <sipa> hmm?
1136 2012-11-08 20:04:51 <gmaxwell> Right now if you're making regular transactions only your few peers which you don't really change without nodes getting bounced... will identify your IP for sure (if they're looking)
1137 2012-11-08 20:04:55 comboy has joined
1138 2012-11-08 20:05:27 <gmaxwell> maybe that concern is just out of scope now... "use tor"
1139 2012-11-08 20:05:45 <gmaxwell> though fundimentally I think it's interesting that initial txn announcement is a different problem than general p2p behavior.
1140 2012-11-08 20:05:56 <jgarzik> Of course, there is always the Google approach of asking N peers in parallel the same question
1141 2012-11-08 20:06:01 <jgarzik> and judging based on answers
1142 2012-11-08 20:06:24 <jgarzik> wastes bandwidth, but gives you fast service
1143 2012-11-08 20:07:16 <gmaxwell> well we could be timing the version/addr messages when the connection goes up.
1144 2012-11-08 20:07:28 <gmaxwell> and prefer to pull from the peer that was fastest.
1145 2012-11-08 20:07:32 <jgarzik> RE P2P networking: we do not disable Nagle (TCP_NODELAY), so the kernel delays our small packets sometimes, in anticipation of more local sending.
1146 2012-11-08 20:08:05 <sipa> since we send in bursts anyway, that is probably not necessary
1147 2012-11-08 20:08:22 <sipa> (i.e., TCP_NODELAY wouldn't hurt)
1148 2012-11-08 20:08:22 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: we have so many problems before nagle is a concern... :P
1149 2012-11-08 20:08:48 <sipa> huh? memset being optimized out?
1150 2012-11-08 20:08:54 <sipa> maybe it gets inlined
1151 2012-11-08 20:08:55 <gmaxwell> next you'll suggest https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi12/minion-unordered-delivery-wire-compatible-tcp-and-tls
1152 2012-11-08 20:09:32 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm pretty sure GCC can, at least of stack variables when it uses the compiler internal one and knows you wont read it.
1153 2012-11-08 20:11:20 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
1154 2012-11-08 20:12:06 <jgarzik> I'd like proof of gcc behavior
1155 2012-11-08 20:12:16 <jgarzik> rather than supposition
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1159 2012-11-08 20:21:30 <jgarzik> Apparently Ruby doesn't scale.  Solution?  Java!  Almost 10,000 tweets per second.  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/08/twitter_epic_traffic_saved_by_java/
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1162 2012-11-08 20:24:30 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, anybody calling the rpc api a lot is probably doing something wrong ;)
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1165 2012-11-08 20:29:01 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, it probably has more to do with the fact that they now have engieers with the common sense to drop ruby in the first place
1166 2012-11-08 20:29:14 <rg> Java over Ruby? jeez
1167 2012-11-08 20:29:43 <rg> Drowning over fire death
1168 2012-11-08 20:30:45 <phantomcircuit> rg, it's a trade off of developer time over efficient hardware utilization
1169 2012-11-08 20:30:58 <phantomcircuit> which actually a lot of the language wars stuff basically seems to come down to
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1180 2012-11-08 21:01:02 <rg> gavin
1181 2012-11-08 21:01:04 <rg> we need to speak
1182 2012-11-08 21:01:10 <rg> however im currently in th emiddle of two installs
1183 2012-11-08 21:01:19 <rg> wll you be around in a little while?
1184 2012-11-08 21:01:53 <gavinandresen> rg: no, I'm about to disappear.  Back tomorrow....
1185 2012-11-08 21:03:24 Lolcust has joined
1186 2012-11-08 21:08:18 <rg> ok
1187 2012-11-08 21:08:20 <rg> that's no prob
1188 2012-11-08 21:08:27 <rg> i just wanted to let you know that paying in Bitcoin will be fnie
1189 2012-11-08 21:08:33 <gavinandresen> cool
1190 2012-11-08 21:08:37 <rg> tfine*
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1197 2012-11-08 21:24:45 <D34TH> #1984
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1202 2012-11-08 21:35:41 <edcba> D34TH: #old
1203 2012-11-08 21:38:49 <BlueMatt> sipa: ping
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1208 2012-11-08 21:56:44 <sipa> BlueMatt: pong
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1212 2012-11-08 21:57:36 <BlueMatt> sipa: so Im trying to get bloom filters to pass with your CPartialMerkleTree...I clearly did something wrong but Im not sure where...
1213 2012-11-08 21:58:21 <sipa> what doesn't work?
1214 2012-11-08 21:58:56 <BlueMatt> well, first of all...git push...give me a minute
1215 2012-11-08 21:59:28 <sipa> so you'd construct a CPartialMerkleTree by passing it a list of txids and a bool vector to select a subset from it, serialize & send it, deserialize, deconstruct resulting in a matched txid list + merkle root, verify that merkle root against the one in the block header
1216 2012-11-08 21:59:37 stalled has joined
1217 2012-11-08 22:00:00 <BlueMatt> sipa: yep, pretty sure thats exactly what I did
1218 2012-11-08 22:00:11 <sipa> maybe there's a bug :)
1219 2012-11-08 22:00:14 <BlueMatt> (Im sure its something obvious, just hoping you can spot it)
1220 2012-11-08 22:00:21 <sipa> ok, will have a look
1221 2012-11-08 22:01:00 <BlueMatt> sipa: https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/tree/newbloom
1222 2012-11-08 22:01:06 <BlueMatt> specifically the last commit
1223 2012-11-08 22:01:27 gribble has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1224 2012-11-08 22:01:31 <BlueMatt> (error is in bloom tests:192 (among many others)
1225 2012-11-08 22:04:16 <sipa> where is CMerkleBlock implemented?
1226 2012-11-08 22:05:19 <sipa> oh, never mind
1227 2012-11-08 22:06:29 <sipa> BlueMatt: do you call CBlock::CalcMerkleRoot?
1228 2012-11-08 22:07:16 <BlueMatt> dont think so...what did I miss?
1229 2012-11-08 22:07:31 <sipa> eh, that shouldn't be necessary of course
1230 2012-11-08 22:07:44 <sipa> assuming the serialized form contains the correct merkle root
1231 2012-11-08 22:08:29 <BlueMatt> I didnt change the serialized form since it was working with the old code (and the serialized form was copied/pasted out of a HexStr() call)
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1240 2012-11-08 22:15:51 <sipa> BlueMatt: which other lines fail?
1241 2012-11-08 22:16:27 <BlueMatt> all of the " vMatched[i] == merkleBlock.vMatchedTxn[i].first" and "vMatched.size() == merkleBlock.vMatchedTxn.size()" and "merkleBlock.txn.ExtractMatches(vMatched) == block.hashMerkleRoot" checks afaict
1242 2012-11-08 22:17:34 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1243 2012-11-08 22:18:22 <sipa> shouldn't it be .second ?
1244 2012-11-08 22:18:43 <BlueMatt> did I really...
1245 2012-11-08 22:19:50 <sipa> for the rest... it may be useful to add some error printf before the return 0's in ExtractMatches
1246 2012-11-08 22:20:05 <BlueMatt> tried that...its not returning 0 either
1247 2012-11-08 22:20:30 <sipa> hmm, what is vMatched.size() ?
1248 2012-11-08 22:21:43 <BlueMatt> 0
1249 2012-11-08 22:21:45 <BlueMatt> on 192
1250 2012-11-08 22:22:01 gribble has quit (Quit: brb!)
1251 2012-11-08 22:22:43 <sipa> and merkleBlock.txn.vHash.size() ?
1252 2012-11-08 22:25:13 <sipa> and vBits?
1253 2012-11-08 22:25:45 <sipa> (this weekend i may try experimenting myself a bit, but not now, if you can wait)
1254 2012-11-08 22:25:51 <BlueMatt> sure, I can wait
1255 2012-11-08 22:25:55 <BlueMatt> I have to go now anyway
1256 2012-11-08 22:26:02 <BlueMatt> see you later
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1272 2012-11-08 22:56:59 <nanotube> BlueMatt: the issues feed should be fixed now. :)
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1280 2012-11-08 23:23:37 <sudog> ;;bc,stats
1281 2012-11-08 23:23:39 <gribble> Current Blocks: 207102 | Current Difficulty: 3304356.3929903 | Next Difficulty At Block: 207647 | Next Difficulty In: 545 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 14 hours, 26 minutes, and 35 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 3398863.17791331 | Estimated Percent Change: 2.8600663392
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