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9 2012-11-13 00:08:14 <MATTISBLUEBRO> Dont tase me bro
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11 2012-11-13 00:10:19 <sipa> some people really just don't get "not ever gonna happen in your lifetime:
12 2012-11-13 00:10:22 <sipa> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=107172.msg1331841#msg1331841
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15 2012-11-13 00:12:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: what else are people to do with their cpus now that mining on them is unprofitable????
16 2012-11-13 00:13:08 <gmaxwell> binary onlyâ where can I bet that it is actually wallet stealing malware?
17 2012-11-13 00:13:21 <sipa> gmaxwell: i don't know - what did kids use their CPUs for before Bitcoin?
18 2012-11-13 00:13:26 <sipa> seti@home?
19 2012-11-13 00:18:03 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: eh? Did I miss a behavior change?
20 2012-11-13 00:18:33 <jgarzik> sipa: distributed.net ;p
21 2012-11-13 00:19:06 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: ReadHTTP no longer calls ReadHTTPStatus, so I was thanking you for renaming it to ReadHTTPMessage at the same time
22 2012-11-13 00:19:39 <phantomcircuit> sipa, some people just like to gamble
23 2012-11-13 00:19:51 <sipa> i know
24 2012-11-13 00:20:02 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I despise behaviour changes that don't break source-calling compatibility; they seem one of the easiest traps for bugs
25 2012-11-13 00:20:22 <sipa> phantomcircuit: but they have much better odds running oclvanitygen, or paying that address mining pool to find something
26 2012-11-13 00:20:46 <sipa> phantomcircuit: why do they use a closed-source CPU-only program that friggin hammers blockchain.info with address queries...
27 2012-11-13 00:20:50 <phantomcircuit> they have better odds just mining normally
28 2012-11-13 00:20:57 <Luke-Jr> XD
29 2012-11-13 00:21:05 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: and that'd actually be legal!
30 2012-11-13 00:21:45 <phantomcircuit> we cant have that
31 2012-11-13 00:22:10 <phantomcircuit> must work very hard and spend huge amounts on electricity bills for the astronomically unlikely chance that we commit a felony
32 2012-11-13 00:22:18 <phantomcircuit> that sounds like a *much* better plan
33 2012-11-13 00:22:20 <phantomcircuit> lol idiots
34 2012-11-13 00:23:16 davout has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
35 2012-11-13 00:23:31 <gmaxwell> hm. it hammers some centeralized service? can't be all bad. :P
36 2012-11-13 00:23:53 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: NO! CPU MINING IS UNPROFITABLE!!!!!!!!
37 2012-11-13 00:24:06 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, depends on who pays for power
38 2012-11-13 00:24:31 <gmaxwell> UNPROFITABLE!!!
39 2012-11-13 00:24:41 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: depends on your luck
40 2012-11-13 00:24:46 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
41 2012-11-13 00:24:51 <phantomcircuit> if you converted the ENTIRE UNIVERSE into a bitcoin brute force machine you would only have 900 atoms per address to store results
42 2012-11-13 00:24:53 <Luke-Jr> if you quit mining after finding one block, it's not THAT bad
43 2012-11-13 00:25:13 <phantomcircuit> if that doesn't put into perspective how retarded the entire idea of this is i dont know what will
44 2012-11-13 00:26:02 <sipa> phantomcircuit: except there are only 2^160 (well, now 2^161) addresses and not 2^256
45 2012-11-13 00:26:15 <sipa> still, indeed it puts things in perspective
46 2012-11-13 00:26:52 <phantomcircuit> i dont think there would be any space left for yourself if you did that
47 2012-11-13 00:26:59 <Luke-Jr> * [new branch] refs/pull/811/head -> origin-pull/811/head <-- wtf?
48 2012-11-13 00:27:04 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: what if its ALREADY a bitcoin brute force machine????
49 2012-11-13 00:27:16 <sipa> Luke-Jr: huh?
50 2012-11-13 00:27:17 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, YOU'RE BLOWING MY MIND MAN
51 2012-11-13 00:27:35 <sipa> Luke-Jr: where did you pull that?
52 2012-11-13 00:27:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: since September, pull #811 was opened somehow?
53 2012-11-13 00:27:43 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I was syncing my local copy of pullreqs
54 2012-11-13 00:28:05 <sipa> there is a way to fetch all pullreqs as branches?
55 2012-11-13 00:28:08 <Luke-Jr> yes
56 2012-11-13 00:28:16 <sipa> .....
57 2012-11-13 00:28:17 <sipa> tell me!!!
58 2012-11-13 00:28:20 <Luke-Jr> [remote "origin-pull"]
59 2012-11-13 00:28:21 <Luke-Jr> fetch = +refs/pull/*:refs/remotes/origin-pull/*
60 2012-11-13 00:28:23 <Luke-Jr> url = git://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git
61 2012-11-13 00:28:55 <Luke-Jr> in .git/config
62 2012-11-13 00:28:59 TD has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
63 2012-11-13 00:29:16 <Luke-Jr> sipa: how do you think I maintain next-test? lol
64 2012-11-13 00:29:46 <phantomcircuit> MAGIC
65 2012-11-13 00:30:06 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i figured: a lot of scripts :)
66 2012-11-13 00:30:34 <Luke-Jr> actually, I used to use git rerere too, but I found it more trouble than it saved in the big picture
67 2012-11-13 00:30:44 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, btw im working on an selinux profile for bitcoind
68 2012-11-13 00:30:52 <phantomcircuit> but getting it to actually work is a bitch
69 2012-11-13 00:31:49 <sipa> Luke-Jr: seems to work; awesome!
70 2012-11-13 00:35:04 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: neat
71 2012-11-13 00:35:12 <jgarzik> go go bitcoin sandbox
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74 2012-11-13 00:51:10 <MC-Eeepc> what int he hell is timekoin
75 2012-11-13 00:53:09 <Cusipzzz> lol, it's the answer!
76 2012-11-13 00:55:12 <sipa> it uses md5 hashes!
77 2012-11-13 00:57:24 <sipa> ah, sha256 too
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83 2012-11-13 01:17:08 <MC-Eeepc> it really uses md5?
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101 2012-11-13 02:25:23 <Diablo-D3> you know
102 2012-11-13 02:25:29 <Diablo-D3> I think this month is DiabloMiner's birthday
103 2012-11-13 02:26:38 <Diablo-D3> Date: Sat Nov 6 11:16:17 2010 -0400
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110 2012-11-13 02:50:40 <forrestv> happy birthday, first miner i used
111 2012-11-13 02:51:14 <Diablo-D3> I really should hurry up working on Seaking so I can port DM to it
112 2012-11-13 02:51:21 <Diablo-D3> and then I can add fpga and asic support
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120 2012-11-13 03:32:02 <InabaEMC> Hey Slush.. does the Stratum protocol require an update every 1 minute or 2? I'm trying to get Stratum working on EMC but having some troubles.
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127 2012-11-13 03:47:51 <phantomcircuit> so why is leveldb so much faster than bdb?
128 2012-11-13 03:47:58 <phantomcircuit> because this is really *much* faster
129 2012-11-13 03:48:42 <Diablo-D3> because bdb was never meant for this kind of shit
130 2012-11-13 03:54:05 <ThomasV> how much faster is it?
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135 2012-11-13 03:56:19 <Luke-Jr> lol
136 2012-11-13 03:56:43 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: it's more usage pattern than raw muscle
137 2012-11-13 03:56:55 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: plus leveldb is not strictly ACID
138 2012-11-13 03:57:15 Garr255 is now known as Gar255
139 2012-11-13 03:58:26 Gar255 is now known as Gar
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142 2012-11-13 03:58:44 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: either leveldb or ultraprune alone got much of the performance benefit; though combined it's faster. (ultraprune because it reduced the database working size substantially, and leveldb because it isn't slow)
143 2012-11-13 03:58:48 Garr25 is now known as Garr2555
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145 2012-11-13 04:00:24 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, heh well durability isn't really important except for private keys
146 2012-11-13 04:00:25 <gmaxwell> Garr244 are you attempting to fuzz test someone's bot?
147 2012-11-13 04:00:26 <jgarzik> leveldb "isn't slow" in the same way IDE drives "aren't slow"... they relax flushing semantics :)
148 2012-11-13 04:00:53 <phantomcircuit> the on disk information is really effectively a cache for the network
149 2012-11-13 04:01:11 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: meh, we used transactions in bdb that didn't depend on instant flushing.
150 2012-11-13 04:03:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: but bdb still demanded it from the OS
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152 2012-11-13 04:05:40 <Garr244> gmaxwell, nah just variants of my name under my account -- someone was using "gar255" on -otc
153 2012-11-13 04:05:45 <Garr244> sorry for the spam :P
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170 2012-11-13 04:28:28 <MC-Eeepc> http://timekoin.org/images/documents/timekoin.pdf
171 2012-11-13 04:28:39 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
172 2012-11-13 04:28:45 <MC-Eeepc> is that the guy who got raided by he fedz for the romny thing
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180 2012-11-13 04:40:04 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: BDB does far more than just flushing. OS-aligned blocks, separate log files, a lot of little details that are critical for big iron database servers. Tries to protect against app and OS crashes both.
181 2012-11-13 04:40:21 <jgarzik> leveldb just ignores a lot of those details, and since we use it as a cache of public data, that's just fine.
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183 2012-11-13 04:41:22 <jgarzik> Google's leveldb and bitcoin's leveldb use are similar: avoid the need for "recovery", rather than building a recoverable database
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185 2012-11-13 04:42:21 <jgarzik> detecting a failure is sufficient
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201 2012-11-13 05:19:30 <robbak> Here's a problem I have building bitcoin: src/db.h clashes with the BDB's C include /usr/local/include/db48/db.h, whick is in the same dir as the c++ db_cxx.h.
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205 2012-11-13 05:20:28 <robbak> I'm working around this by patching transactiondesc.cpp to #include "walletdb.h", which pulls in the correct db.h as a side effect.
206 2012-11-13 05:21:33 <robbak> How should this be fixed permanently and properly? The proper fix I can see is renaming src/db.h so it doesn't clash.
207 2012-11-13 05:21:38 <robbak> I'd like some comments.
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214 2012-11-13 05:26:20 <Luke-Jr> robbak: it doesn't clash for anyone else
215 2012-11-13 05:26:27 <Luke-Jr> are you using the included build makefiles?
216 2012-11-13 05:30:33 <Luke-Jr> can someone reopen #1813 finally? -.-
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218 2012-11-13 05:43:33 <robbak> Yes. qmake for the gui, src/makefile.unix for the daemon, with -L/usr/local/lib/db48/ added to cxxflags
219 2012-11-13 05:43:36 xenland has joined
220 2012-11-13 05:44:17 <robbak> Either other OSes list ../ before included cxxflags, or other OSes instll the C include to a different folder.
221 2012-11-13 05:45:15 <robbak> I currently have a tree building with a renamed db.h
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228 2012-11-13 06:05:30 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: plan to rebase addnoderpc? :/
229 2012-11-13 06:06:12 <Luke-Jr> robbak: try using BDB_INCLUDE_PATH=/usr/local/lib/db48/
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235 2012-11-13 06:13:06 <Luke-Jr> whew, looks like I have 11 branches to fix/rebase :|
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245 2012-11-13 06:48:04 <robbak> Luke-Jr: is that BDB_INCLUDE_DIR an argument to add to qmake, gmake or is it an environment variable to set?
246 2012-11-13 06:48:23 <Luke-Jr> the first two
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270 2012-11-13 07:59:35 <robbak> Right, I have it going into both CXXFLAGS and INCLUDEPATH for qmake. That's changed, and it builds and runs without the patch. Bargain! thanks.
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272 2012-11-13 08:00:59 <Luke-Jr> wow, I post a few "rebase needed" comments and everything pops alive
273 2012-11-13 08:01:01 <Luke-Jr> XD
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278 2012-11-13 08:23:18 <phantomcircuit> im trying to bootstrap something but i cant figure out the format of addr.dat
279 2012-11-13 08:23:36 <phantomcircuit> anybody got some python code that just extracts all the known peers?
280 2012-11-13 08:23:48 <sipa> addr.dat or peers.dat ?
281 2012-11-13 08:23:54 <phantomcircuit> uh
282 2012-11-13 08:24:07 <phantomcircuit> peers.dat
283 2012-11-13 08:24:24 <sipa> the latter is just a serialized CAddrMan
284 2012-11-13 08:24:26 <phantomcircuit> i assume that's more sane
285 2012-11-13 08:24:34 <phantomcircuit> oh
286 2012-11-13 08:24:35 <phantomcircuit> so
287 2012-11-13 08:24:38 <phantomcircuit> sort of
288 2012-11-13 08:24:38 <phantomcircuit> lol
289 2012-11-13 08:25:16 <phantomcircuit> i could strip out some of my old python code to crawl the network for peers...
290 2012-11-13 08:27:09 <weex> phantomcircuit: relevant? http://xkcd.com/416/
291 2012-11-13 08:27:53 <phantomcircuit> weex, possibly
292 2012-11-13 08:28:05 <phantomcircuit> ctrl+c would definitely work in this case
293 2012-11-13 08:28:07 <phantomcircuit> i think
294 2012-11-13 08:28:20 <weex> always nice to have a kill switch
295 2012-11-13 08:29:59 <phantomcircuit> sometimes you just gotta let it happen
296 2012-11-13 08:30:03 * phantomcircuit runs away from that one
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302 2012-11-13 08:56:44 <MC1984> ÂA hunter-gatherer who did not correctly conceive a solution to providing food or shelter probably died, along with his or her progeny, whereas a modern Wall Street executive that made a similar conceptual mistake would receive a substantial bonus and be a more attractive mate, Professor Crabtree says.
303 2012-11-13 08:56:50 <MC1984> BURN
304 2012-11-13 08:56:58 <MC1984> he is so fuckin right though
305 2012-11-13 08:57:11 CodesInChaos has joined
306 2012-11-13 08:57:24 <MC1984> the specied is screwed
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311 2012-11-13 09:13:09 <sipa> watch 'idiocracy'
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317 2012-11-13 09:26:40 <MC1984> yeah i have
318 2012-11-13 09:26:49 <MC1984> also huxley was right, not orwell
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360 2012-11-13 10:50:47 <xenland> great cheese
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416 2012-11-13 13:41:46 <yellowhat> is there another blockchain.info like database with timestamps on transactions, not just on blocks?
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419 2012-11-13 13:50:55 <cjd> It's the man with the yellow hat :D
420 2012-11-13 13:51:03 * cjd is now known as curious george
421 2012-11-13 13:57:16 <sipa> bitcoind? :p
422 2012-11-13 13:59:22 <yellowhat> sipa, i mean a webservice.
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426 2012-11-13 14:00:58 <yellowhat> sipa, the local bitcoind will only store the timestamp correctly, if it is online while the tx is made, right?
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428 2012-11-13 14:15:12 <sipa> yellowhat: yes, and only for wallet transactions
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431 2012-11-13 14:18:38 <yellowhat> is this still correct and in effect? "nodes reject any block timestamp that is greater than 2 hours from the current network time. Block timestamps that are earlier than the median time of the past 11 blocks are also rejected. This validation puts upper and lower bounds on the acceptable range of block timestamps."
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433 2012-11-13 14:19:26 <gmaxwell> yellowhat: it's a protocol rule and can't be changed without risking non-convergence. So yes, it's 'still' correct.
434 2012-11-13 14:19:39 <yellowhat> thanks.
435 2012-11-13 14:20:20 <gmaxwell> well, almost correct. The timestamp must be later than the median of the last 11. Equal to is not acceptable.
436 2012-11-13 14:21:13 <yellowhat> if you are interested why i am asking so much about time: hackathon project we did in 1 day: https://github.com/bitcoinaustria/bitnotar presentation: http://goo.gl/vBwkY i would welcome criticism.
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438 2012-11-13 14:30:57 <sipa> > median(last_11) is a block validity rule
439 2012-11-13 14:31:13 <sipa> < now+2h is somewhat more fuzzy
440 2012-11-13 14:31:52 <kjj_> well, it is still a rule. but under that rule, a block can become valid if you wait a while
441 2012-11-13 14:34:55 <gmaxwell> kjj_: right, and clocks aren't exactly in sync... so there is some uncertanty around it.
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444 2012-11-13 14:38:37 <kjj_> for many applications, getting to the same day is good enough
445 2012-11-13 14:39:14 <cjd> yellowhat: I like your thinking, it would be nice though to use a 0btc transfer with a fee so that ultraprune can remove it and then we won't get in trouble with gmaxwell ;)
446 2012-11-13 14:41:17 <sipa> does it use 0btc outputs?
447 2012-11-13 14:41:26 <kjj_> without reading the source, it looks like this is just burning transactions to the pubkey that matches the hash of the file?
448 2012-11-13 14:41:45 <cjd> the presentation shows non 0 output in a picture but 0 is obviously preferable
449 2012-11-13 14:41:54 <cjd> yeap
450 2012-11-13 14:42:07 <sipa> 0 btc outputs are non-standard
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452 2012-11-13 14:42:15 <cjd> that's too bad
453 2012-11-13 14:42:25 <sipa> why?
454 2012-11-13 14:42:29 <gmaxwell> cjd: uh, where are you getting the idea that zero value outputs are a good thing?
455 2012-11-13 14:42:39 <sipa> there's no reason why anyone would ever spend a 0 btc output
456 2012-11-13 14:42:45 <sipa> so they'd just linger forever
457 2012-11-13 14:43:10 <cjd> Because sometimes you want to prove that you had a certain hash at a certain time and you're not transferring btc to someone
458 2012-11-13 14:43:10 <gmaxwell> cjd: with zero value outputs the size of the utxo set is unbounded and there is no incentive to clean them up at all, they only cost you...
459 2012-11-13 14:43:32 <gmaxwell> cjd: there are ways to do that that add _no_ data to the blockchain.
460 2012-11-13 14:44:18 <gmaxwell> (e.g. see https://github.com/goblin/chronobit )
461 2012-11-13 14:44:18 <cjd> oh? without messing around with merged mining schenanigans and namecoin?
462 2012-11-13 14:44:55 <sipa> it uses the same merkle-tree-root-committed-in-coinbase technique as merged mining
463 2012-11-13 14:45:05 <sipa> but there's no second chain or anything, just data
464 2012-11-13 14:46:50 <helo> so anyone can add arbitrary data to p2pool's coinbase?
465 2012-11-13 14:46:53 <amiller> is there a non-standard p2pool
466 2012-11-13 14:47:29 <amiller> if you have to basically bribe a miner to include it in the coinbase anyway...
467 2012-11-13 14:48:22 <gmaxwell> ::sigh::
468 2012-11-13 14:48:28 <gmaxwell> why must you all be stupid? :P
469 2012-11-13 14:49:03 <gmaxwell> helo: no, you can add hash roots to the shares you produce, which are tracable along the sharechain to any future block p2pool produces.
470 2012-11-13 14:49:28 <UukGoblin> cjd, there are several options of improving chronobit to make it into a separate timestamping network, I just don't have time to do it
471 2012-11-13 14:50:06 <helo> ahh
472 2012-11-13 14:50:11 <UukGoblin> so that people who want to timestamp something just send it to other p2pool-mining peers, and check back later to get the proof
473 2012-11-13 14:50:12 <cjd> this is interesting
474 2012-11-13 14:50:13 <gmaxwell> Not to mention that time commitments don't need to add any data.
475 2012-11-13 14:50:14 <amiller> yellowhat, how do you derive a public key from the hash of a document
476 2012-11-13 14:50:26 <amiller> do you really derive a public keypair?
477 2012-11-13 14:50:54 <cjd> amiller: just take the first 160 bits of the sha256 is the easy way
478 2012-11-13 14:50:56 <amiller> or do you just insert 20 bytes that looks like a public key but is actually the hash of a document
479 2012-11-13 14:51:01 <cjd> I didn't do it but I'm guessing
480 2012-11-13 14:51:09 <cjd> mhm
481 2012-11-13 14:51:12 <kjj_> doh!
482 2012-11-13 14:51:15 <amiller> it would be good if you can indicate that the transaction is not spendable
483 2012-11-13 14:51:34 <amiller> because otherwise you are _undetectably_ deflating the money supply
484 2012-11-13 14:52:01 <UukGoblin> there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest around timestamping though, even I can't find the time to use my software ;-)
485 2012-11-13 14:52:22 <sipa> there is a lot of interest in using the blockchain a communication medium though :(
486 2012-11-13 14:52:33 <kjj_> when I made my notary service, I had the thing gather a batch of documents, record their hashes in a block of text, hash the text, create the pubkey for the hash, spend to it, wait for a block, send that transaction back to me, and only then publish the text
487 2012-11-13 14:52:39 <amiller> sipa, money is speech, eh
488 2012-11-13 14:52:47 <UukGoblin> lol
489 2012-11-13 14:53:08 <cjd> UukGoblin: what kind of size are these proofs?
490 2012-11-13 14:53:17 <cjd> how big are we talking?
491 2012-11-13 14:53:23 <UukGoblin> cjd, several to few hundred kB
492 2012-11-13 14:53:35 <cjd> ouch
493 2012-11-13 14:53:46 <amiller> what's ouch about that
494 2012-11-13 14:53:48 <gmaxwell> cjd: Can you name a _single_ application for which this is problematic?
495 2012-11-13 14:53:49 <UukGoblin> cjd, but there's lots of room for improvement
496 2012-11-13 14:54:03 <cjd> anything using udp
497 2012-11-13 14:54:24 <gmaxwell> ...
498 2012-11-13 14:54:54 <cjd> I'm kind of talking out my ass at the moment because I have no idea how p2pool hashes old entries into the new one's coinbase
499 2012-11-13 14:55:08 <gmaxwell> cjd: thats isn't an application. If you need to transmit something over UDP you need to provide your own reliablity layer in any case or it's all bets off.
500 2012-11-13 14:55:18 <amiller> kjj, link? i'm still trying to figure out if you're talking about putting no-op data in the scriptpubkey or if you're actually deriving a key with committed data or something
501 2012-11-13 14:55:33 <UukGoblin> just keep in mind that p2pool keeps a share chain, much like a blockchain
502 2012-11-13 14:55:41 <cjd> ok
503 2012-11-13 14:55:49 <kjj_> amiller: I haven't published it, and I haven't made the service public
504 2012-11-13 14:56:16 <kjj_> I'm actually making a full key from the hash of the list of hashes, sending coins to it, sending the coins back to my real wallet
505 2012-11-13 14:56:19 <sipa> i suppose we'll need some code to detect unspendable txout templates, and automatically prune those
506 2012-11-13 14:56:20 <UukGoblin> there are splits and stales on it, just like in the real block chain
507 2012-11-13 14:56:36 <sipa> kjj_: why......?
508 2012-11-13 14:56:39 <cjd> prune ones with 0 output :)
509 2012-11-13 14:56:46 <sipa> cjd: no, you can't
510 2012-11-13 14:56:48 <amiller> kjj_, so you publish the private key after the coins are already spent?
511 2012-11-13 14:57:02 <sipa> cjd: because that means every attempt to spend one of those output becomes illegal
512 2012-11-13 14:57:02 <kjj_> amiller: yes
513 2012-11-13 14:57:06 <amiller> kjj_, that's excellent
514 2012-11-13 14:57:10 <amiller> that's basically the same as the guy fawkes algorithm
515 2012-11-13 14:57:17 <amiller> what's awesome is that doing signatures this way does not even require ECDSA
516 2012-11-13 14:57:28 <UukGoblin> sipa, and is there anything wrong with it being illegal?
517 2012-11-13 14:57:36 <UukGoblin> (or is it just that current rules make it legal?)
518 2012-11-13 14:57:39 <kjj_> sipa: there wasn't a notary service when I started it. I never finished for two reasons
519 2012-11-13 14:57:42 <sipa> UukGoblin: yes, hard fork the second someone tries it
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521 2012-11-13 14:57:50 <sipa> UukGoblin: because right now it is legal
522 2012-11-13 14:57:58 <UukGoblin> right
523 2012-11-13 14:58:27 <amiller> kjj_, one side effect of that is it potentially makes double spends appealing at a certain amount.
524 2012-11-13 14:58:42 <cjd> hmm
525 2012-11-13 14:58:54 <sipa> if we'd make it illegal to spend 0-value amounts... well, that'd be nice in a way, but perhaps there are uses of 0-outputs that don't like this
526 2012-11-13 14:58:56 <amiller> suppose someone makes a transaction with 10,000 btc then sepnds it back to themselves
527 2012-11-13 14:59:01 <amiller> then publishes the private key
528 2012-11-13 14:59:03 <cjd> perhaps allow spending of transactions which have been pruned as long as the amount added is 0?
529 2012-11-13 14:59:20 <sipa> cjd: how do you know what the amount is, if they are pruned?
530 2012-11-13 14:59:43 <cjd> if everything else adds up and there are some extranious inputs, assume they are zero
531 2012-11-13 14:59:45 <UukGoblin> you'd store the transactions yourself to have a proof that they were included
532 2012-11-13 14:59:54 <UukGoblin> (transactions + merkle branch)
533 2012-11-13 14:59:56 <sipa> cjd: that means you can't derive the fee amount anymore
534 2012-11-13 14:59:57 <kjj_> amiller: very small amounts
535 2012-11-13 14:59:58 <UukGoblin> just like a chronobit proof
536 2012-11-13 15:00:05 <cjd> oh yuck
537 2012-11-13 15:00:06 <cjd> indeed :(
538 2012-11-13 15:00:16 <amiller> kjj_, yeah
539 2012-11-13 15:00:22 <sipa> cjd: and even worse, that would require a hard fork in any case, as you're making something legal that was illegal
540 2012-11-13 15:00:39 <cjd> oh it's illegal to add a 0 value input?
541 2012-11-13 15:00:43 <sipa> no
542 2012-11-13 15:00:57 <sipa> but you're making it legal to spend an non-existing 0-value output
543 2012-11-13 15:01:04 <cjd> ahh indeed
544 2012-11-13 15:01:12 <kjj_> amiller: basically, I charged a nominal minimum fee, but people could pay more. when a threshold was reached either in money collected or time waited, it would create the signing block
545 2012-11-13 15:01:35 <sipa> the cleanest solution imho (if people *really* need to add data in transaction that doesn't need to hit the UTXO set) is making spending 0-value outputs illegal
546 2012-11-13 15:01:48 <UukGoblin> kjj_, have you seen chronobit? any thoughts?
547 2012-11-13 15:01:51 <cjd> yeah, for me (my opinion is just that), spending 0 value inputs has no usefulness
548 2012-11-13 15:01:52 <sipa> but then again, i think people don't need that at all
549 2012-11-13 15:01:57 <UukGoblin> (there's #chronobit, too)
550 2012-11-13 15:02:11 <sipa> and i don't like the sign that it's fine to use the blockchain for communication
551 2012-11-13 15:02:15 <kjj_> UukGoblin: I'm aware of it, yeah. that's one of the two reasons why I never finished
552 2012-11-13 15:02:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: why not just use pushes in script sigs?
553 2012-11-13 15:02:28 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah
554 2012-11-13 15:02:36 <sipa> right
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556 2012-11-13 15:03:29 <cjd> I think that it's a good idea to pave a road for people who want this use case (putting myself asside for a moment) because if we say "no this is evil don't" then people will hack something together and it will be bad.
557 2012-11-13 15:03:34 <kjj_> the other reason was that I got nervous about accepting files for upload to be hashed and deleted
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559 2012-11-13 15:03:44 <UukGoblin> kjj_, fair enough
560 2012-11-13 15:03:55 <yellowhat> amiller: the document is the private key. so you can spend it, let it prune if you decide so in the future. this is the current implementation in the prototype
561 2012-11-13 15:04:14 <amiller> yellowhat, so you have to reveal the plaintext in order to spend the btc?
562 2012-11-13 15:04:31 <sipa> cjd: i think we need to give them a way to communicate metadata to transactions that is easier than using the blockchain :)
563 2012-11-13 15:04:43 <sipa> cjd: instead of making it hard to use the blockchain as communication medium
564 2012-11-13 15:04:55 <UukGoblin> yes!
565 2012-11-13 15:05:15 <gmaxwell> sipa: Doing both is more powerful than either alone. :)
566 2012-11-13 15:05:42 <UukGoblin> I was also thinking of making the proof file format into an RFC of some sort
567 2012-11-13 15:05:46 <cjd> hrm, the problem is that the chain is a beautiful awesome notary service and it doesn't require effort and you pay for it's services using good ol bitcoin.
568 2012-11-13 15:05:58 <sipa> gmaxwell: right, but just doing the first will result in people that keep asking "how do i find the sender address of a transaction? yes i know it doesn't reqlly exist, but i need it anyway!"
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570 2012-11-13 15:06:02 <gmaxwell> In any case, the committment stuff is not transaction metadataâ a commitment should result in no txn at all.
571 2012-11-13 15:06:20 <UukGoblin> cause it's pretty generic, can be used with other things like coin burning too
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573 2012-11-13 15:07:19 <yellowhat> amiller, not really. you just have to use the document hash as a private key. that hash stays secret. except if you prove the documents existance, then anyone reading the proof (for example a judge) can spend the btc
574 2012-11-13 15:07:21 <gmaxwell> cjd: thats crap though. Done correctly notary service has a proper price of ~0 because it has O(1) scaling... You don't need to add any data to the chain.
575 2012-11-13 15:07:57 <gmaxwell> cjd: schemes which add data to the chain are rubbish because they externalize their cost and there is no mechenism for paying the true victims of it (all future users of Bitcoin forever in time).
576 2012-11-13 15:07:59 <amiller> hmm... anyone reading the proof can spend the btc
577 2012-11-13 15:08:13 <cjd> depending on how large a proof you're comfortable with, yes
578 2012-11-13 15:08:46 <sipa> cjd: done on top of bitcoin directly the proof has size 32*log2(num_commitments) bytes
579 2012-11-13 15:08:48 <UukGoblin> cjd, much of the proof can be distributed if done properly
580 2012-11-13 15:08:54 <gmaxwell> cjd: adding data to the blockchain doesn't make the proofs any smaller, generally.
581 2012-11-13 15:09:03 <UukGoblin> your own private data of the proof will be below 1kB I imagine
582 2012-11-13 15:09:27 <sipa> with a billion data entries committed, you need not even a kilobyte
583 2012-11-13 15:09:53 <gmaxwell> cjd: it may just move some fraction of the data to be replicated forever on hundreds of thousands of computers for all time, which was what I meant about externalizing the cost.
584 2012-11-13 15:10:11 <UukGoblin> cjd, currently, the proof is large because it stores all p2pool shares in the chain between the timestamp and when p2pool finds a bitcoin block
585 2012-11-13 15:10:29 <UukGoblin> this is all publicly-known data (it's just that p2pool forgets it after 24h because it's useless to it)
586 2012-11-13 15:10:35 <cjd> UukGoblin: is there any other way? when I say proof I mean proof given only the header chain
587 2012-11-13 15:10:37 <gmaxwell> cjd: e.g. not only does it make people who are uninterested in your committments pay for them, but it increases the sum-cost _enormously_ in the process.
588 2012-11-13 15:10:47 <UukGoblin> and that data can be stored for all users as a side-chain
589 2012-11-13 15:11:17 <cjd> you can shuffle it around here or there but you still need to have that data
590 2012-11-13 15:11:20 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: uh. thats not a good idea.
591 2012-11-13 15:11:44 <sipa> well it can be stored in a side-chain for users who consider it valuable to have such a chain
592 2012-11-13 15:11:47 MiningBuddy has joined
593 2012-11-13 15:11:56 <sipa> but i doubt you'll find many rational users who think that
594 2012-11-13 15:12:01 <gmaxwell> What sipa says.
595 2012-11-13 15:12:07 <UukGoblin> cjd, yes there is, and that's to make shares into a tree rather than store a list of them
596 2012-11-13 15:12:22 <cjd> yeap
597 2012-11-13 15:12:34 <cjd> but that's a patch against p2pool :/
598 2012-11-13 15:12:41 <cjd> an ugly one too
599 2012-11-13 15:12:43 <UukGoblin> that's not a big deal
600 2012-11-13 15:12:45 <yellowhat> cronobit looks interesting, too. i will look into it to see if it fits this use case. i have to be AFK now for 2-3 hours taking care of the children
601 2012-11-13 15:12:55 <gmaxwell> That, however, sounds like a fine one to me. Just get forrest to include a set secondary commitments in the shares for N-back shares.
602 2012-11-13 15:12:59 <gmaxwell> Like a skiplist.
603 2012-11-13 15:13:10 <UukGoblin> sipa, you'll store it just to be able to remember your proofs. You can then choose to donate some bandwidth to provide your stored data to other users of the notary service.
604 2012-11-13 15:13:24 CeidaFighter has quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"])
605 2012-11-13 15:13:47 <UukGoblin> yellowhat, appreciated. If you have any queries, catch me here on in #chronobit
606 2012-11-13 15:13:50 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: You'd just store your own proofs. Thats much more efficient.. exactly as many copies as there are people interested in a particular proof.
607 2012-11-13 15:14:35 <cjd> if you have a hashtree and that tree roots in a tx output, as far as I can tell you're somewhere around 2k for the proof all the way back to the header chain for 8192 entries per tx..
608 2012-11-13 15:15:51 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, that's more or less what I meant
609 2012-11-13 15:17:36 <gmaxwell> cjd: huh? log2(8192) is 13. You're on the order of 420 bytes.
610 2012-11-13 15:19:08 <cjd> yeap, and then the tx which is around 250 IIRC and then the hash branch linking the tx back to the header
611 2012-11-13 15:19:19 copumpkin has joined
612 2012-11-13 15:19:44 <UukGoblin> cjd, the data you want to timestamp will often be much larger than a few kb though, and you have to store that too
613 2012-11-13 15:20:02 <UukGoblin> I don't see why a few kB would ever be problematic
614 2012-11-13 15:20:16 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
615 2012-11-13 15:21:21 agricocb has joined
616 2012-11-13 15:21:29 <gmaxwell> cjd: you still don't get to 2kB doing that.
617 2012-11-13 15:22:01 <cjd> maybe I messed up on my math, anyway if I run under then that's good because the hashtree can be taller
618 2012-11-13 15:22:33 <sipa> cjd: a proof for data in a merkle tree rooted in the coinbase is data+32*log2(entries_committed)+size_coinbase_tx+32*log2(num_transactions_in_block)
619 2012-11-13 15:22:50 <sipa> and that's enough to link it to the block chain headers
620 2012-11-13 15:23:11 <cjd> wish I ran a huge mining pool, then I could have coinbase access :)
621 2012-11-13 15:23:33 vegard has joined
622 2012-11-13 15:23:57 vegard is now known as Guest63521
623 2012-11-13 15:23:58 <gmaxwell> cjd: you can run p2pool and thus have coinbase access to the blocks you produce and the shares they commit.
624 2012-11-13 15:24:41 <cjd> yeah, <2k becomes the hard part... I suppose I could buy near-root coinbase access from one of the pool ops
625 2012-11-13 15:25:29 <gmaxwell> Where are you getting this 2k figure from?
626 2012-11-13 15:25:42 <cjd> the absurd thing is the number of transactions from everyone buying notary service would far outweigh the once a day or once a week fake tx
627 2012-11-13 15:25:53 <cjd> I figure 2 udp packets is about my limit
628 2012-11-13 15:29:35 freakazoid has joined
629 2012-11-13 15:30:36 <amiller> i think there should be a guy-fawkes style pubkey system
630 2012-11-13 15:30:44 <amiller> you could eliminate ECDSA for the typical payment case
631 2012-11-13 15:31:25 <amiller> guy fawkes is a one-time signature algorithm that relies on timestamping messages
632 2012-11-13 15:32:10 <cjd> a thing that has long interested me about bitcoin is that the protocol and chain system itself will withstand a break of ecdsa
633 2012-11-13 15:32:13 <cjd> that's impressive
634 2012-11-13 15:33:04 <amiller> the typical payment case is when you only need a single signature because you created a fresh address for a single event
635 2012-11-13 15:33:07 <gmaxwell> cjd: limit for _what_?
636 2012-11-13 15:33:59 <UukGoblin> cjd, but not a break of SHA256 ;-]
637 2012-11-13 15:34:15 <amiller> on one hand a break of sha256 is highly unlikely
638 2012-11-13 15:34:17 <cjd> to be able to give very small pieces of data to very low power devices fast
639 2012-11-13 15:34:34 <amiller> on the other hand, the whole thing is like a macabre celebration of how close we come to busting lesser-difficulty hashes
640 2012-11-13 15:34:40 <UukGoblin> amiller, a resonable break might be unlikely, but it's certain that collisions exist
641 2012-11-13 15:35:23 <amiller> UukGoblin, the blockchain places the heads of partially-preimaged hashes up on stakes :p
642 2012-11-13 15:35:35 <cjd> actually even if sha256 become weak and miners were able to near hash 0, it would be reasonable to add another hash to the back of that and continue to raise the difficulty above the current maximum, this would require the miners to upgrade of course
643 2012-11-13 15:35:55 <cjd> but anyway this is silly conjecture
644 2012-11-13 15:35:59 <sipa> that's a hard fork in any case
645 2012-11-13 15:36:11 <sipa> which is no easier than just changing the hashing algorithm
646 2012-11-13 15:36:21 <UukGoblin> triple des comes to mind
647 2012-11-13 15:36:38 <sipa> i vote quad-rot13
648 2012-11-13 15:36:43 <cjd> :D
649 2012-11-13 15:36:57 <UukGoblin> nod
650 2012-11-13 15:37:39 <amiller> guy fawkes hash-based signatures would require a scriptpubkey that can span across two transactions
651 2012-11-13 15:39:31 johnlockwood_ has joined
652 2012-11-13 15:40:01 <amiller> hm
653 2012-11-13 15:40:11 <amiller> or it would just require an opcode that can consume proofs-of-timestamp
654 2012-11-13 15:45:17 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
655 2012-11-13 15:45:59 <UukGoblin> what's a guy fawkes signature?
656 2012-11-13 15:47:23 theorbtwo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
657 2012-11-13 15:51:14 drizztbsd has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
658 2012-11-13 15:51:22 <amiller> okay lets run through this
659 2012-11-13 15:51:29 drizztbsd has joined
660 2012-11-13 15:51:41 <amiller> i'm a merchant i'm about to accept a payment from you, so i create a secret 2^k just a random string
661 2012-11-13 15:51:51 <amiller> then i take the hash of this string
662 2012-11-13 15:52:10 <amiller> the hash of this string is my address, which i give to you
663 2012-11-13 15:52:21 <amiller> lets do Y = H(X) where X is my private key and Y is the address
664 2012-11-13 15:52:36 <amiller> by X is my private key i mean the same random 2^k string from the first part
665 2012-11-13 15:53:09 theorbtwo has joined
666 2012-11-13 15:53:09 <amiller> you pay me by creating a 1btc transaction output that says "whoever can prove he knows the preimage of Y may claim this btc"
667 2012-11-13 15:53:19 <gmaxwell> Then I, as a miner, run code that automatically rebinds any pay to preimage transactions to one paying to me... PROFIT.
668 2012-11-13 15:53:34 <amiller> hold your horses
669 2012-11-13 15:53:41 <amiller> now to claim my payment i must do two phases
670 2012-11-13 15:54:07 <gmaxwell> (and yes, this kind of scheme can be made more secure, but not in the bitcoin system as it is today; see the MAVE crazy stuff)
671 2012-11-13 15:54:24 <amiller> first i must somehow timestamp in the blockchain a message that says "I know the preimage of Y and i want to transfer the payment to my stable wallet P"
672 2012-11-13 15:55:07 ibno has joined
673 2012-11-13 15:55:30 <amiller> right so i do that either by getting this put in a coinbase or i can do it myself in a transaction if i pay for it
674 2012-11-13 15:56:14 <slush> etotheipi_: ping?
675 2012-11-13 15:56:37 <UukGoblin> amiller, remember there's nothing stopping the miner from creating an earlier timestamp of his preimages
676 2012-11-13 15:56:45 <amiller> finally, I make a transaction says "The preimage of Y is X and in the blockchain you can see that the key should now be associated with PK "
677 2012-11-13 15:57:01 <amiller> it's not done by timestamp
678 2012-11-13 15:57:03 <amiller> it's done by 'work'
679 2012-11-13 15:57:16 <amiller> or blockheight if you like
680 2012-11-13 15:57:37 <amiller> i don't reveal the preimage X until i'm certain my commitment is timestamped deep in the chain
681 2012-11-13 16:02:18 <amiller> so all this requires is an opcode that's strong enough for all these timestamp methods we just talked about
682 2012-11-13 16:02:36 PhantomSpark has joined
683 2012-11-13 16:02:40 <amiller> if you want to be able to prove that a commitment was made before some block, then maybe you could prove it to a miner
684 2012-11-13 16:07:37 <UukGoblin> amiller, and what's the purpose?
685 2012-11-13 16:08:55 <amiller> ECDSA is slow, this involves a single hash (well, as many hashes are are needed to do that timestamp proof)
686 2012-11-13 16:09:41 <UukGoblin> oh... heh
687 2012-11-13 16:10:21 <UukGoblin> but if I'm reading it right, it requires lots of waiting for your commitment to be timestamped?
688 2012-11-13 16:10:41 <UukGoblin> making it, arguably, slower?
689 2012-11-13 16:11:06 <amiller> it's slower but costs less
690 2012-11-13 16:11:15 <amiller> it's easier on the miners although it transfers some burden to the client
691 2012-11-13 16:11:46 <amiller> easier on the miners = less tx fee required, eventually
692 2012-11-13 16:12:21 <UukGoblin> btw, need a fee-avoidance mechanism
693 2012-11-13 16:12:35 <amiller> i don't follow
694 2012-11-13 16:12:51 Hasimir is now known as Mephistopheles
695 2012-11-13 16:13:04 toffoo has joined
696 2012-11-13 16:14:10 <UukGoblin> like, when I have lots of inputs to a large txn
697 2012-11-13 16:14:31 <UukGoblin> I'd like some mechanism that'll re-arrange these inputs using many small transactions
698 2012-11-13 16:14:37 <UukGoblin> so that I don't have to pay any fees
699 2012-11-13 16:14:54 <UukGoblin> and I need that to prove that the current fee mechanism is meh ;-]
700 2012-11-13 16:16:09 <cjd> I would think the way to avoid fees is to keep btc in lots of small amounts rather than globing it together so you don't have to make change and that way the "velocity" of your btc is low
701 2012-11-13 16:16:53 <cjd> but then the miners could detect what you're up to and start orphaning your transactions unless you pay even more
702 2012-11-13 16:21:11 <amiller> that's an interesting point, that sometimes you don't have to make change if you have exactly the right amount
703 2012-11-13 16:22:25 Mephistopheles is now known as Hasimir
704 2012-11-13 16:22:32 <cjd> well if you only make a tiny bit of change, then only a tiny bit of btc has high velocity
705 2012-11-13 16:22:37 <amiller> but keeping btc in small amounts is expensive for exactly the same reason that lots of small outputs is expensive - the miners are burdened by a large number of utxos
706 2012-11-13 16:26:46 <UukGoblin> well you should keep your BTC in roughly the same chunks that you intend on spending them
707 2012-11-13 16:27:00 <UukGoblin> so to be flexible, you'd have both small and large outputs
708 2012-11-13 16:27:06 theorbtwo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
709 2012-11-13 16:27:11 PhantomSpark has joined
710 2012-11-13 16:27:12 <UukGoblin> but it'll never be perfect, hence the need of a wallet rebalancing app
711 2012-11-13 16:27:40 <gmaxwell> "orphaning your transactions" what the @#$@ does that mean?
712 2012-11-13 16:29:12 <UukGoblin> I guess he meant "not including your transactions"
713 2012-11-13 16:30:04 theorbtwo has joined
714 2012-11-13 16:30:10 johnlockwood_ has quit (Quit: johnlockwood_)
715 2012-11-13 16:30:20 denisx has joined
716 2012-11-13 16:31:20 <denisx> is there already a macbuild with ultraprune?
717 2012-11-13 16:32:33 <kjj_> UukGoblin: I run p2pool. I call the scripts I'm writing to clean up my wallet my "dust collector"
718 2012-11-13 16:33:14 <UukGoblin> ah, that's another use case, to insta-clean your wallet by including your own free cheap transactions in the blocks you mine
719 2012-11-13 16:33:31 <UukGoblin> kjj_, fun. Will you make the scripts public?
720 2012-11-13 16:33:45 <UukGoblin> s/free cheap/free/
721 2012-11-13 16:34:15 <amiller> that's pretty cool kjj_
722 2012-11-13 16:35:21 theorbtwo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
723 2012-11-13 16:35:33 <kjj_> my problem is that I write ugly, nasty dirty scripts, full of garbage and past experiments.
724 2012-11-13 16:36:07 <kjj_> and then I get lost when I try to clean them up for publication
725 2012-11-13 16:36:07 <UukGoblin> kjj_, I know what you mean
726 2012-11-13 16:36:23 <sipa> denisx: no idea - ask gavin :)
727 2012-11-13 16:36:35 <UukGoblin> kjj_, do you use git?
728 2012-11-13 16:36:54 <kjj_> nope
729 2012-11-13 16:37:16 <kjj_> I've been forced to start learning it to contribute my trivial little patches to the client
730 2012-11-13 16:37:30 <kjj_> but I almost always end up in here begging for git help
731 2012-11-13 16:37:59 <UukGoblin> kjj_, that's one of the reasons I guess. I used to write messy scripts as well, but since I started using version control systems, I just delete the rubbish and let the VCS remember my older versions in case I need to go back to them
732 2012-11-13 16:38:35 <UukGoblin> I no longer have a need to comment out code
733 2012-11-13 16:38:36 <amiller> git's just a blockchain with a command line anyway
734 2012-11-13 16:38:52 <UukGoblin> huh.
735 2012-11-13 16:39:02 <sipa> amiller: awesome tweet by the way "Back to the future is basically a movie about a git rebase"
736 2012-11-13 16:39:04 <kjj_> meh. my mind is still file based.
737 2012-11-13 16:39:14 <amiller> :p
738 2012-11-13 16:39:54 <amiller> sipa, also: the flux capacitor is a 51% attack
739 2012-11-13 16:40:07 <kjj_> I'm not a fan of OO either, so you have that...
740 2012-11-13 16:40:11 <kjj_> gotta run, back later
741 2012-11-13 16:40:17 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
742 2012-11-13 16:40:38 <sipa> amiller: so all the world together drives at 175 mph, and with 88 mph you have a majority? :p
743 2012-11-13 16:43:36 <gavinandresen> denisx: no mac build with ultraprune yet.
744 2012-11-13 16:45:00 <denisx> I think the mac would get the most out of ultraprune since it still has this 100% cpu bug
745 2012-11-13 16:45:16 maaku has joined
746 2012-11-13 16:45:17 <sipa> huh?
747 2012-11-13 16:45:35 <gavinandresen> denisx: really? I haven't noticed 100% CPU usage on latest release
748 2012-11-13 16:45:58 <sipa> denisx: you know that 100% cpu usage (if it's doing real work, at least) is intended?
749 2012-11-13 16:45:58 <denisx> I need ca. 30min to catch one week of blocks
750 2012-11-13 16:46:24 <sipa> on what kind of cpu?
751 2012-11-13 16:46:33 <denisx> quad i7
752 2012-11-13 16:46:47 <sipa> ok, should be about 10x as much
753 2012-11-13 16:47:01 <sipa> but ultraprune will hardly affect cpu usage, normally
754 2012-11-13 16:49:47 <sipa> denisx: ever tried to find out where it was spending cpu?
755 2012-11-13 16:50:08 <denisx> it happens only while catching the blocks
756 2012-11-13 16:50:34 <sipa> so it's basically just much slower than expected, but that's all?
757 2012-11-13 16:50:53 <denisx> yes
758 2012-11-13 16:51:02 <denisx> and exactly at 100% cpu
759 2012-11-13 16:51:04 <sipa> gavinandresen: how fast is block sync for you?
760 2012-11-13 16:51:10 <sipa> denisx: well that's expected if it's slow
761 2012-11-13 16:51:45 <gmaxwell> It should be getting 100% cpu usage at the end... if it's not either you are waiting on the network or something is wrong.
762 2012-11-13 16:52:08 <sipa> still, i get several blocks/s on my CPU
763 2012-11-13 16:52:14 <denisx> since it was wrong before I think the bug is still there
764 2012-11-13 16:52:42 <sipa> denisx: the earlier '100% cpu' bug was just a thread in a spinlock
765 2012-11-13 16:52:56 <gavinandresen> sipa: my bitcoin development environment is still in pieces on the floor, so I haven't been running ultraprune
766 2012-11-13 16:53:01 <sipa> it has nothing to do with the fact that obviously when doing a cpu intensive task, you'll see maxed out cpu usage
767 2012-11-13 16:53:13 <sipa> gavinandresen: head, i mean
768 2012-11-13 16:53:15 <denisx> gavinandresen: you should, I heard its nice! ;)
769 2012-11-13 16:53:40 <sipa> gavinandresen: eh, i mean 0.7.1 or whatever came before it
770 2012-11-13 16:53:59 <sipa> gavinandresen: what rate of blocks/s do you see at the end of the chain
771 2012-11-13 16:53:59 <gavinandresen> sipa: Oh, 0.7.1 is SLOW....
772 2012-11-13 16:54:10 <sipa> on osx
773 2012-11-13 16:54:15 <gavinandresen> (takes like half an hour to catch up on a week's worth of blocks :-)
774 2012-11-13 16:54:54 <sipa> ok, so you see the same as denisx
775 2012-11-13 16:55:02 <gavinandresen> yup.
776 2012-11-13 16:55:08 <sipa> that's unexpectedly slow
777 2012-11-13 16:55:45 <jgarzik> could depart from tradition, and do a 0.8-alpha test release, with big flashing warning stickers and "0.8 is not done yet" labels on it
778 2012-11-13 16:56:31 <sipa> jgarzik: as soon as auto-migration is implemented, i'd like to see some "technology preview release, not for mining/merchants" release
779 2012-11-13 16:56:38 <sipa> well, s/release/binaries/
780 2012-11-13 16:56:45 <jgarzik> ACK
781 2012-11-13 16:57:14 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: Ill rebase addnoderpc if there is some consensus on design/more interest
782 2012-11-13 16:57:32 <BlueMatt> also...not today, need to wait for plane time tomorrow/friday
783 2012-11-13 16:57:34 <gavinandresen> sipa: part of putting my development environment back together is making it easier for me to compile 64-bit, latest SDK versus 32-bit, maximum-compatibility, to see if there is any performance difference
784 2012-11-13 16:58:00 <sipa> oh, right, could it be that signature verification is significantly slower on 32-bit?
785 2012-11-13 16:58:09 <gavinandresen> could be....
786 2012-11-13 16:58:23 <sipa> or the 32-bit openssl is less optimized
787 2012-11-13 16:59:28 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as away!~PiZZaMaN2@unaffiliated/pizzaman2k|PiZZaMaN2K
788 2012-11-13 16:59:28 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
789 2012-11-13 16:59:42 <sipa> gmaxwell, jgarzik, gavinandresen: how do you see auto-migration by the way? there are three options basically: a) move block files to new names + -reindex b) -loadblock old block files + delete c) -loadblock old block files + keep
790 2012-11-13 17:00:13 <sipa> a) is certainly fastest and the only way that doesn't need 4GB of temporary extra disk storage
791 2012-11-13 17:00:20 <gavinandresen> I say a)
792 2012-11-13 17:00:29 <gavinandresen> Common case will be users upgrade and never look back.
793 2012-11-13 17:00:30 <sipa> but b) is the only way that allows easy switching back to old versions
794 2012-11-13 17:00:37 <sipa> eh, c
795 2012-11-13 17:00:52 <sipa> b) has the advantage over a) of defragmenting block files
796 2012-11-13 17:01:23 <gavinandresen> meh on fragmented block files. ultraprune will hardly every read them anyway
797 2012-11-13 17:01:40 <sipa> true
798 2012-11-13 17:01:51 <gmaxwell> I am unhappy about the idea that nodes will be setup differently based on how they were started.
799 2012-11-13 17:02:15 <gmaxwell> If we went the (a) route I think we would be better off sticking with 2gib blockfiles across the board.
800 2012-11-13 17:02:15 <gavinandresen> We'll have less customer support from "I ran out of disk space, what do I do" if we move files
801 2012-11-13 17:02:35 <sipa> a) also means you get 2 +- 2GB .blk*.dat files, and 128 MB files after that
802 2012-11-13 17:02:48 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: We wouldn'tâ any non-move option would need to check space first. And a user with <4gb free is going to have problems soon in any case.
803 2012-11-13 17:03:51 <gavinandresen> What happens if my blk0001.dat file is a symlink?
804 2012-11-13 17:04:00 <jgarzik> sipa: we discussed this remember?
805 2012-11-13 17:04:00 <gavinandresen> (in the move case....)
806 2012-11-13 17:04:04 <jgarzik> GUI: move and delete
807 2012-11-13 17:04:12 <jgarzik> GUI: import and delete
808 2012-11-13 17:04:15 <jgarzik> bitcoind: import and keep
809 2012-11-13 17:04:24 <gmaxwell> I'd rather have B / C in a choice in the gui, with a check for free space. (and just refuse to run if <4gb free)
810 2012-11-13 17:04:28 <jgarzik> no need to move, as block files are in new directories
811 2012-11-13 17:04:42 <jgarzik> either delete, or not
812 2012-11-13 17:05:00 <sipa> jgarzik: i know, but with less participants in the discussion
813 2012-11-13 17:05:26 <gavinandresen> why spend time coding a GUI choice? This is a one-time, one-release thing, hardly seems worth it
814 2012-11-13 17:05:41 <sipa> afk
815 2012-11-13 17:05:44 <jgarzik> I think there is value in keeping old block files around, for bitcoind users
816 2012-11-13 17:05:52 <jgarzik> new users will never see old block files
817 2012-11-13 17:05:55 <jgarzik> just import
818 2012-11-13 17:06:07 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: because there is the "can you downgrade" angle vs "wastes 4gb disk space"
819 2012-11-13 17:06:12 <jgarzik> bitcoind users are more likely to bounce between versions
820 2012-11-13 17:06:26 <jgarzik> downgrade, etc.
821 2012-11-13 17:06:38 <gavinandresen> but the number of users who bounce between versions is pretty darn small. I think.
822 2012-11-13 17:07:11 t7 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204])
823 2012-11-13 17:07:26 andyrossy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
824 2012-11-13 17:07:35 <gavinandresen> I just want to minimize work, and if you're bouncing between versions then cp -r the datadir before you upgrade....
825 2012-11-13 17:07:38 <cjd> when faced with the choice of breaking noobs and breaking experienced people, break the experienced people because they're all running wacky distros with experimental kernel modules anyway so stuff breaking is normal
826 2012-11-13 17:07:39 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: "0.x didn't work for me! I want to go back to the working one" isn't that uncommon though.
827 2012-11-13 17:08:10 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: fine. You can import from the moved blk*.dat files.
828 2012-11-13 17:08:24 <gavinandresen> (if you don't want to re-dl the chain)
829 2012-11-13 17:08:44 <jgarzik> indeed
830 2012-11-13 17:08:47 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yea, in like .. 24 hours.
831 2012-11-13 17:08:51 <jgarzik> ESPECIALLY for such a major change
832 2012-11-13 17:09:00 <jgarzik> that's why I think this release, there is more value than most, in keeping the old files
833 2012-11-13 17:09:17 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: if the answer is 'move', then the old files ARE kept.
834 2012-11-13 17:09:28 <gavinandresen> (they're just moved to a different directory)
835 2012-11-13 17:09:43 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: that has no value except avoiding issues on systems that are almost out of disk space.
836 2012-11-13 17:10:01 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: /me was agreeing with gmaxwell's "0.x didn't work for me! I want to go back to the working one"
837 2012-11-13 17:10:07 <gmaxwell> And has the cost of making the blockchain look very different on hosts that were born ultraprune vs upgraded.
838 2012-11-13 17:10:36 <cjd> copy and delete after a few days, maybe with a little warning message? ok I'll shutup now since I'm not going to write the patch..
839 2012-11-13 17:11:19 maqr has joined
840 2012-11-13 17:12:59 <gmaxwell> Ignoring what happens with the files themselves ... I have mixed feelings on reindex vs loadblock. Reindex is more complicated and more likely to run into issues. OTOH, we'd like to get those fixed. OTOOH finding them as part of users upgrade process is a pretty bad way to go about it.
841 2012-11-13 17:16:06 * helo counts gmaxwell's hands
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857 2012-11-13 18:25:37 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: reindex should be using loadblock logic...
858 2012-11-13 18:26:04 <sipa> it is
859 2012-11-13 18:26:41 <sipa> i haven't seen any issues with reindexing lately
860 2012-11-13 18:30:11 ovidiusoft has quit (Quit: leaving)
861 2012-11-13 18:30:12 <sipa> but still, it is more vulnerable, as any data written to the block files is likely to break the reindex process
862 2012-11-13 18:30:23 <sipa> sure, that shouldn't happen at all
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864 2012-11-13 18:30:57 <gmaxwell> Right, I'm not currently aware of any issuesâ but it absolutely is more fragile.
865 2012-11-13 18:31:08 <sipa> indeed
866 2012-11-13 18:31:13 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Quit!)
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872 2012-11-13 18:34:57 <gavinandresen> so... what's the consensus for upgrading/downgrading? I don't feel strongly, I just prefer to default to "do what is fastest/least-likely-to-cause-trouble for the greatest number of people"
873 2012-11-13 18:35:57 BlueMatt has quit (Client Quit)
874 2012-11-13 18:36:34 BlueMatt has joined
875 2012-11-13 18:37:00 <sipa> all 3 methods seem to have advantages and disadvantages :)
876 2012-11-13 18:37:05 <sipa> i don't really care
877 2012-11-13 18:37:24 BlueMatt has quit (Client Quit)
878 2012-11-13 18:38:15 <sipa> i think that cases for which reindex fails, will not be able to loadblock everything either
879 2012-11-13 18:38:42 <gavinandresen> sipa: then implement the easiest one quick, before we spend more time arguing
880 2012-11-13 18:39:32 <sipa> the problem is really just gui code, the logic itself is trivial in any case
881 2012-11-13 18:40:02 BlueMatt has joined
882 2012-11-13 18:40:37 <gavinandresen> gui can just be an at-startup "upgrading block database" splashscreen thingie, can't it ?
883 2012-11-13 18:40:38 <gmaxwell> sipa: well, I worry about people terminating the reindex at random times... though the last version of the reindex seems more robust against that.
884 2012-11-13 18:41:17 <sipa> gmaxwell: it stores in the block db 'i am reindexing', and if you restart in between it restarts
885 2012-11-13 18:41:29 <gavinandresen> I'm pretty strongly against asking users what to do. GUI rule is "don't ask users questions that 98% of them will not know how to answer"
886 2012-11-13 18:41:34 * midnightmagic is curious about Rabin fingerprinting..
887 2012-11-13 18:41:38 <sipa> and it always skips parts of the block files that arr already known
888 2012-11-13 18:41:45 <sipa> arrrr
889 2012-11-13 18:42:03 <gavinandresen> is it talk like a pirate day again already? cool!
890 2012-11-13 18:42:40 <sipa> yeah, every prime-numbered tuesday!
891 2012-11-13 18:42:44 <sipa> or something
892 2012-11-13 18:43:32 <midnightmagic> muaahaha soon a good chunk of miners will have hashing clusters stronger than the jaguar supercomputer.. lol
893 2012-11-13 18:43:36 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: there is no right answer to the "be able to downgrade" or "don't waste a bunch of space". Picking one is unfortunate, if we go that route I suspect we should pick don't wasteâ better long term consequences.
894 2012-11-13 18:43:42 <midnightmagic> (as it was prior to the upgrade)
895 2012-11-13 18:43:57 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: it has gpus now! though ... nvidia. :P
896 2012-11-13 18:44:25 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Yes, @ 17pf or so. They're saying they have 280,000 nvidia gpu, which doesn't make any sense to me.
897 2012-11-13 18:44:26 <sipa> also, in particular for a "demo release", ability to downgrade is quite important
898 2012-11-13 18:44:45 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I don't suppose you know who Michael Wolfe is do you?
899 2012-11-13 18:45:00 <midnightmagic> from PGI.
900 2012-11-13 18:45:28 <gmaxwell> No.
901 2012-11-13 18:45:29 <sipa> pretty good... integrity?
902 2012-11-13 18:45:41 <gmaxwell> portland compiler group.
903 2012-11-13 18:45:47 <midnightmagic> portland group incorporated. they wrote one of the OpenACC compilers.
904 2012-11-13 18:46:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: also we don't want people to want to demo to not get the loadblock/reindex advantage.
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910 2012-11-13 19:08:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: hmm?
911 2012-11-13 19:10:07 daybyter has joined
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914 2012-11-13 19:17:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: if they install to a seperate data dir to avoid an inability to downgrade then they'll end up doing an IBD from the network, which isn't exactly a great expirence.
915 2012-11-13 19:19:05 lumberjak has joined
916 2012-11-13 19:19:06 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: it looked to me like there was general agreement to merge it as-is for 0.7, but it wasn't rebased in timeâ¦
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932 2012-11-13 19:23:42 <sipa> gmaxwell: right, of course
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938 2012-11-13 19:30:46 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: no, it was rebased at that time, but it was largely bikeshed'd for 0.7, I may have time to rebase it on the plane tomorrow or friday
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961 2012-11-13 20:31:19 * helo can't think of any reason someone would want to downgrade
962 2012-11-13 20:32:33 bitcoinbulletin has joined
963 2012-11-13 20:33:02 <cjd> if they have a weird system and the new version crashes for some odd reason
964 2012-11-13 20:45:55 <sipa> helo: from git head, or from a release?
965 2012-11-13 20:47:33 <D34TH> i am the weird system king
966 2012-11-13 20:51:43 <sipa> D34TH: on a scale of -2.1 to 1.7, how weird is your system?
967 2012-11-13 20:52:28 <D34TH> its roughly 0xDD
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969 2012-11-13 20:58:33 BlackPrapor has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
970 2012-11-13 21:07:01 eroot has joined
971 2012-11-13 21:07:35 <kjj_> D34TH, weird, or just old?
972 2012-11-13 21:08:54 devrandom has joined
973 2012-11-13 21:10:35 <D34TH> kjj_, weird
974 2012-11-13 21:11:09 <cjd> so how bout those big endian patches? ;)
975 2012-11-13 21:11:11 <kjj_> like Slackware weird, or QNX weird?
976 2012-11-13 21:11:39 <D34TH> like ppc ubuntu with 64 mb ram weird
977 2012-11-13 21:11:46 <D34TH> old mac g3
978 2012-11-13 21:11:48 <D34TH> lol
979 2012-11-13 21:12:00 <kjj_> ahh.
980 2012-11-13 21:12:02 <D34TH> i set it up next to my rack
981 2012-11-13 21:12:19 <D34TH> it makes the entire circut its plugged into have a floating ground somehow
982 2012-11-13 21:12:36 <kjj_> erm, pretty sure physics doesn't work that way
983 2012-11-13 21:12:44 <D34TH> i cant explain it
984 2012-11-13 21:12:47 <cjd> it shunts power to ground? /o\
985 2012-11-13 21:12:51 <kjj_> I hope you are cross compiling for that box
986 2012-11-13 21:13:00 <D34TH> no
987 2012-11-13 21:13:03 <D34TH> i dont even use it
988 2012-11-13 21:13:06 <D34TH> its unplugged
989 2012-11-13 21:13:20 <cjd> if it's putting voltage to ground, that's a good thing
990 2012-11-13 21:13:20 <kjj_> oh, so like my Vax then
991 2012-11-13 21:13:26 <D34TH> i'd sell it but shipping would be more than its worth
992 2012-11-13 21:16:25 <sipa> cjd: i don't think anyone managed to let the satoshi code run on BE hw
993 2012-11-13 21:17:23 <cjd> yeah, trying to port it would be enormously painful AFAICT
994 2012-11-13 21:17:35 <kjj_> hey, speaking of endian... I've always wondered how we get the right hashes
995 2012-11-13 21:18:54 <kjj_> as in, the padding in the midstate appears to be in machine-specific format
996 2012-11-13 21:19:48 <sipa> cjd: i don't think so
997 2012-11-13 21:20:14 <sipa> cjd: i figure it's just direct memory copying in a few places, though they may be well hidden
998 2012-11-13 21:20:38 <sipa> just don't think many people spent efford on it
999 2012-11-13 21:21:12 <cjd> yeah, a lot of it is just the serialization and one could write a filter for that
1000 2012-11-13 21:21:21 <sipa> indeed
1001 2012-11-13 21:21:33 <cjd> but then there's the sneeky stuff inside of the script and whatnot
1002 2012-11-13 21:21:46 <sipa> not sure
1003 2012-11-13 21:22:12 <cjd> I made my app all endian independent and now I'm not sure if it was worth all the effort, it seems that little has basicly won the war...
1004 2012-11-13 21:22:37 <cjd> except like a fool, I byteswap everything before putting it on the wire
1005 2012-11-13 21:22:54 x18882 has joined
1006 2012-11-13 21:25:20 MBS has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1007 2012-11-13 21:27:07 <sipa> ha
1008 2012-11-13 21:27:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: "direct memory copying" is machine-specific :P
1009 2012-11-13 21:28:00 <sipa> Luke-Jr: of course
1010 2012-11-13 21:28:02 MBS has joined
1011 2012-11-13 21:29:00 <D34TH> but i wanna copy luke's hashes from his pool and submit them from my client before he sends his
1012 2012-11-13 21:30:10 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1013 2012-11-13 21:38:10 <Luke-Jr> D34TH: sure, GBT makes that possible
1014 2012-11-13 21:38:33 <D34TH> but will i get the coins instead of you
1015 2012-11-13 21:38:41 <Luke-Jr> no
1016 2012-11-13 21:39:51 <D34TH> how does it keep track?
1017 2012-11-13 21:39:57 <Luke-Jr> â¦
1018 2012-11-13 21:40:06 <Luke-Jr> hashes encode the payoutsâ¦
1019 2012-11-13 21:40:45 <D34TH> so, its possible to get payout address of finder?
1020 2012-11-13 21:40:54 <sipa> sure
1021 2012-11-13 21:40:55 <helo> (sipa: from a release)
1022 2012-11-13 21:41:14 <sipa> D34TH: just look at the outputs of the coinbase transaction of a block
1023 2012-11-13 21:41:38 <D34TH> berb, starting food combustion
1024 2012-11-13 21:57:14 d4de has quit (Quit: I can't tell the difference between Halloween and Christmas, because OCT31 = DEC25)
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1029 2012-11-13 22:04:23 * D34TH offers sipa some rice pudding
1030 2012-11-13 22:04:43 * D34TH offers luke some homemade potato bread
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1032 2012-11-13 22:05:16 root2_ is now known as root2
1033 2012-11-13 22:05:20 <xIsalty> dammit d34th wheres my coffee
1034 2012-11-13 22:05:23 PhantomSpark has joined
1035 2012-11-13 22:07:08 <D34TH> i only make coffee from 04:00-09:00 and 20:00-22:00 ET
1036 2012-11-13 22:07:47 <sipa> so many zeroes and colons
1037 2012-11-13 22:07:47 <xIsalty> or on those long nights building releases
1038 2012-11-13 22:07:54 MC1984 has joined
1039 2012-11-13 22:07:55 <sipa> i almost parsed your line as an ipv6 address
1040 2012-11-13 22:08:18 <D34TH> lol
1041 2012-11-13 22:08:35 <xIsalty> lol
1042 2012-11-13 22:09:24 <jgarzik> olo
1043 2012-11-13 22:09:52 <sipa> i assume you use RFC 2324 then?
1044 2012-11-13 22:10:01 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1045 2012-11-13 22:11:20 <D34TH> i find if you can combine RFC 2324 with RFC 2549 you can get a really nice smooth brew, with quick delivery.
1046 2012-11-13 22:12:07 <sipa> D34TH: i fear collisions...
1047 2012-11-13 22:12:31 <D34TH> i fear poop in my coffee, but we roll with the punches
1048 2012-11-13 22:14:56 <phantomcircuit> sigh fat fingered ctrl+w for a second
1049 2012-11-13 22:15:06 <phantomcircuit> closed a bunch of irc channels
1050 2012-11-13 22:16:09 <D34TH> im sorry for your loss
1051 2012-11-13 22:17:10 Someguy123 has quit (Changing host)
1052 2012-11-13 22:17:10 Someguy123 has joined
1053 2012-11-13 22:18:05 <sipa> may they forever remain silent
1054 2012-11-13 22:19:12 RedEmerald has joined
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1056 2012-11-13 22:31:36 <phantomcircuit> sipa, they probably will
1057 2012-11-13 22:31:40 <phantomcircuit> THEYRE GONE FOREVER
1058 2012-11-13 22:31:47 <phantomcircuit> because i cant tell which ones they were
1059 2012-11-13 22:31:48 <phantomcircuit> lol
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1062 2012-11-13 22:35:56 <denisx> sipa: I am trying to build head on freebsd, but I get errors with leveldb.cpp:33: error: 'NewMemEnv' is not a member of 'leveldb'
1063 2012-11-13 22:36:11 slush has joined
1064 2012-11-13 22:36:14 <topace> hmmm im having a problem with bitcoind move command just hanging
1065 2012-11-13 22:36:19 <denisx> I'm using leveldb from the ports, do I need to build it differently?
1066 2012-11-13 22:36:30 <helo> leveldb is included with the source
1067 2012-11-13 22:36:39 <topace> i see a forum post about the same thing (marked as solved) but there really isnt a valid solution in that thread
1068 2012-11-13 22:36:44 <helo> it's been "forked"
1069 2012-11-13 22:37:31 <topace> anyone know how to fix the problem? or know what it might be?
1070 2012-11-13 22:38:10 eroot has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1071 2012-11-13 22:38:56 <xenland> ew move?
1072 2012-11-13 22:39:21 <denisx> topace: maybe it still has to do?
1073 2012-11-13 22:40:10 <xenland> I never understood move really, its like Bitcoin is saying "Locally these bitcoins belong to this account, but networkly they belong to this one"
1074 2012-11-13 22:42:00 <topace> move just moves things internally between the accounts
1075 2012-11-13 22:42:04 <topace> in the local wallet
1076 2012-11-13 22:42:14 <topace> shoudlnt be a network operation at all
1077 2012-11-13 22:42:40 <sipa> xenland: you mistake accounts for addresses
1078 2012-11-13 22:42:54 <sipa> xenland: accounts are purely local and have nothing to do with coins on the network
1079 2012-11-13 22:43:09 <sipa> they're just balances that get incremented when coins arrive to an associated address
1080 2012-11-13 22:43:31 <xenland> Thats what i said its local and nothing changes "really"
1081 2012-11-13 22:43:39 <xenland> Whats the beneifit of doing it?
1082 2012-11-13 22:43:40 <topace> sipa: exactly, so why on earth would somethign as simple as an internal move between accounts cause the whole ThreadRPCServer to deadlock?
1083 2012-11-13 22:43:57 <sipa> topace: good question...
1084 2012-11-13 22:43:57 <topace> xenland: useful for writing apps that interface with the wallet
1085 2012-11-13 22:44:18 <topace> xenland: eg. to track user deposits
1086 2012-11-13 22:44:25 <sipa> xenland: the fact that you say "locally these bitcoins belong to this account" is a misunderstanding; bitcoins do not belong to an account *at all*
1087 2012-11-13 22:44:41 <sipa> xenland: it's just a balance, a single number, it can even be negative
1088 2012-11-13 22:44:41 <xenland> Why move it at all then? why not keep it in their deposit address?
1089 2012-11-13 22:44:51 <xenland> sipa: okay
1090 2012-11-13 22:45:16 <sipa> xenland: if you implement an e-wallet, you can use it to track users' balances, for example
1091 2012-11-13 22:45:23 <xenland> Ah
1092 2012-11-13 22:45:26 <topace> what i do, is give the user a deposit address, assigned to their account, then when a user balance is >0 (meaning they sent some coins to any one of their addresses), i move the entire balance out of their account into a general "pool" account, and credit the database records accordingly
1093 2012-11-13 22:46:10 <topace> its a good way to check "did a user deposit some coins to the web-wallet/web-application
1094 2012-11-13 22:46:20 <topace> .. when it works :)
1095 2012-11-13 22:46:32 PhantomSpark has quit (2!~kvirc@pool-71-190-231-20.nycmny.fios.verizon.net|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1096 2012-11-13 22:46:55 <topace> if move completely hangs, and prevents all other RPC calls, it makes the web-wallet/web-application die pretty fast :(
1097 2012-11-13 22:47:10 <xenland> I suppose. I personally just use a DB its more predictable and handles errors well.
1098 2012-11-13 22:47:37 <topace> xenland: but you have to interface with the bitcoind to see if coins come in :p
1099 2012-11-13 22:48:11 <xenland> topace: Atleast i don't need to use commands that hang on me and that don't really make sense at all to have if you can use a database to save your data
1100 2012-11-13 22:48:21 <xenland> :P
1101 2012-11-13 22:48:36 <topace> xenland: how would you check for a depsoit?
1102 2012-11-13 22:49:10 <xenland> getbalance(address) or do what i do which is ....(one sec)
1103 2012-11-13 22:50:24 eroot has joined
1104 2012-11-13 22:50:26 <xenland> Give out deposit address, make a cronjob that will periodically query bitcoin for getreceivedbyaddress(), subtract the known difference from getrecievedbyaddress() from the current saved mysql data and you'll get how much Bitcoins was funded to the account
1105 2012-11-13 22:50:41 <xenland> from that point on you update the customers account balance
1106 2012-11-13 22:50:57 <xenland> and then i also make a log file that logs all actions to the database that has to do with finaincials that are all checksumed to prevent tampering
1107 2012-11-13 22:51:00 <topace> that assumes you know which address you want to check
1108 2012-11-13 22:51:04 <sipa> topace: since what version does move cause a hang?
1109 2012-11-13 22:51:08 <topace> what if a user has hundreds of associated addresses
1110 2012-11-13 22:51:13 <topace> sipa: 0.7.1
1111 2012-11-13 22:51:19 ibno has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
1112 2012-11-13 22:51:36 <xenland> topace: the cronjob scanns all addresses and updates where needed, you don't need to know anything
1113 2012-11-13 22:51:40 <topace> it _has_ been working fine withn 0.7.1 for other moves
1114 2012-11-13 22:52:01 <xenland> topace: just look out for the finished product of this project: https://github.com/Xenland/Bitcoin-Financial-Web-Development-Kit--BFWDK-
1115 2012-11-13 22:52:11 <xenland> and You'll see what i mean, it should be finished in the next week
1116 2012-11-13 22:52:12 <topace> xenland: crontab that does getreceivedbyaddress() for thousands and thsouands of addresses every few minutes? sounds like aa recipe for scalability disaster
1117 2012-11-13 22:52:30 <xenland> The cron tab does ALL addresses
1118 2012-11-13 22:52:30 <sipa> topace: i have an idea about what may cause the hang; can you build from source?
1119 2012-11-13 22:52:53 <xenland> updates all address information
1120 2012-11-13 22:53:03 <xenland> in one run to save CPU cycles
1121 2012-11-13 22:53:14 <topace> sipa: not on this server, its a live-wallet for 3 other web-apps im already using it for...
1122 2012-11-13 22:53:17 <xenland> all you have to do is just "Query" balance
1123 2012-11-13 22:53:24 <xenland> from db
1124 2012-11-13 22:53:32 <xenland> but thats my opnion i see you have your own :) we are human
1125 2012-11-13 22:53:54 <xenland> Decentralization FOR THE COLONY! lol
1126 2012-11-13 22:54:15 <sipa> topace: i can build a binary if you trust me, but no guarantees this fixes it, or doesn't send your coins to mars
1127 2012-11-13 22:54:23 <topace> indeed.. i've done some profiling on my live web-wallets, and getreceivedbyaddress COULD take anywhere up to 10 seconds to return an answer.
1128 2012-11-13 22:54:38 <topace> so doign that on thsounands of addresses every few minutes simply is not practical
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1132 2012-11-13 22:55:45 <xenland> Then if you are worry about scaling you shouldn't be using Bitcoin directly at all but i guess thats why you use the "move" command, makes sense now, just not the way i would do it, what happens if someone or a programmer "mislabels" an account... how do you recover? i think about things like that
1133 2012-11-13 22:55:58 <topace> sipa: i _can_ build, just worried about breaking my other stuff....
1134 2012-11-13 22:56:14 <topace> how do i get exactly bv 0.7.1 from git?
1135 2012-11-13 22:56:25 <sipa> git checkout v0.7.1
1136 2012-11-13 22:58:01 <topace> k.. got a patch/debug line to add?
1137 2012-11-13 22:58:23 <xenland> What good is scalability if you can't recover your customers accounts? :P crap i gotta go now I'll never know the answer
1138 2012-11-13 22:58:38 <D34TH> xenland: irc on phone?
1139 2012-11-13 22:58:44 <topace> i dont know what yo unmean "recover" accounts
1140 2012-11-13 22:58:45 xenland has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1141 2012-11-13 22:58:46 <topace> all the data is still there
1142 2012-11-13 23:00:31 <sipa> topace: soon, testing myself
1143 2012-11-13 23:01:28 <amiller> what would happen if the difficulty wasn't about zeros but was actually about partial collision with the previous block
1144 2012-11-13 23:01:51 <sipa> amiller: would work, afaict
1145 2012-11-13 23:02:04 <gmaxwell> amiller: would work, but it would make e.g. DOS prevention somewhat harder.
1146 2012-11-13 23:02:07 <amiller> "the first d digits of this block will be equal to the last d digits of the previous block whish is 0x234214
1147 2012-11-13 23:02:08 <amiller> "
1148 2012-11-13 23:02:34 <sipa> any variable-difficulty constraint on the hash of a block is fine
1149 2012-11-13 23:02:37 <amiller> it wouldn't make dos any harder if the commitment were unambiguous like that
1150 2012-11-13 23:03:00 <gmaxwell> amiller: it means you have to have the other blocks to do a sniff test, thats all I'm saying.
1151 2012-11-13 23:03:12 <gmaxwell> oh which is.. e.g. providing it with it. I suppose.
1152 2012-11-13 23:03:33 <sipa> right, it means PoW can't be validated before connecting a block header to the tree
1153 2012-11-13 23:03:48 <sipa> which isn't a disaster
1154 2012-11-13 23:03:55 <amiller> it's not any different than now
1155 2012-11-13 23:04:05 <amiller> i mean it's not any harder than now, i think what you just described isn't a problem sipa
1156 2012-11-13 23:04:30 <sipa> it's not a problem for the theoretical security model, no
1157 2012-11-13 23:04:31 <amiller> if the format is unambiguous, it's not any harder to parse the message and determine what the collision target should be
1158 2012-11-13 23:04:43 <amiller> since you'd have to hash it anyway
1159 2012-11-13 23:04:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: even pratically if you always provide the target with it, it would be fine.
1160 2012-11-13 23:05:10 <gmaxwell> And actually the prev is in the header, duh. So there you go.
1161 2012-11-13 23:05:23 <sipa> Uh.
1162 2012-11-13 23:05:52 <sipa> topace: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/fixmove
1163 2012-11-13 23:06:03 <sipa> it's based directly on top of v0.7.1
1164 2012-11-13 23:06:04 <gmaxwell> (and, uh, if it wasn't in the header you'd have a theoretical security problem)
1165 2012-11-13 23:06:36 <sipa> Yeah, as I said: uh.
1166 2012-11-13 23:06:41 <sipa> :)
1167 2012-11-13 23:06:48 <sipa> (read: forget what i said)
1168 2012-11-13 23:07:16 <gmaxwell> (because without the header committing to its precise target it becomes advantageous to try to concurrently fork at all points)
1169 2012-11-13 23:08:38 <sipa> topace: please let me know if this fixes it
1170 2012-11-13 23:08:55 <sipa> i've seen too many reports about move locking up already for it to be a coincidence
1171 2012-11-13 23:09:32 <topace> sipa: sorry you'll have to help me with git? (im a svn guy) how do i merge that patch?
1172 2012-11-13 23:11:16 <sipa> topace: git remote add sipa http://github.com/sipa/bitcoin.git
1173 2012-11-13 23:11:20 <sipa> topace: get fetch sipa
1174 2012-11-13 23:11:25 <sipa> topace: git checkout fixmove
1175 2012-11-13 23:11:31 <sipa> topace: <build>
1176 2012-11-13 23:16:46 <topace> k building (sorry takes a while on the VM)
1177 2012-11-13 23:17:31 harkon__ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1178 2012-11-13 23:18:15 harkon_ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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1182 2012-11-13 23:23:59 <topace> wow long time to compile... its a tiny vm that just runs my wallet :p
1183 2012-11-13 23:24:04 <topace> not made for development
1184 2012-11-13 23:24:23 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1185 2012-11-13 23:24:23 <sipa> where did the binary it was running come from?
1186 2012-11-13 23:25:48 Garr255 is now known as Garrr255
1187 2012-11-13 23:25:53 Garrr255 is now known as Garr255
1188 2012-11-13 23:26:11 <topace> bitcoin.org's pre-compiled linux-binary
1189 2012-11-13 23:26:52 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1190 2012-11-13 23:30:31 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: SLEEP! [11:14:29] <+Tsunami1> http://i.imgur.com/t2rz5.png)
1191 2012-11-13 23:31:04 <cjd> what's the status of txn_count ? something that might well be used in the future or a pretty safe bet that it will remain dead?
1192 2012-11-13 23:31:38 <sipa> txn_count?
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1194 2012-11-13 23:31:55 <cjd> the 1 byte field in the header which is always 0
1195 2012-11-13 23:32:13 <sipa> eh?
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1197 2012-11-13 23:32:32 <sipa> oh, i see your confusion
1198 2012-11-13 23:32:48 <sipa> that field is to specify the number of transactions
1199 2012-11-13 23:33:03 <sipa> in full blocks, it contains the number of transactions that follow
1200 2012-11-13 23:33:12 <sipa> but if you only send a block header, it's always 0
1201 2012-11-13 23:33:19 <sipa> (since no transaction follow)
1202 2012-11-13 23:33:20 <cjd> ahh
1203 2012-11-13 23:33:32 <cjd> is it stored on disk?
1204 2012-11-13 23:33:35 <sipa> yes
1205 2012-11-13 23:33:59 <cjd> because the header has a beautiful 16 byte alignment but it's off by one when you add that uint8
1206 2012-11-13 23:34:08 <sipa> it's not a uint8
1207 2012-11-13 23:34:10 <sipa> it's a varint
1208 2012-11-13 23:34:20 <cjd> oh ok, makes sense
1209 2012-11-13 23:34:44 <sipa> but it's always the singly byte 0 when submitting a header
1210 2012-11-13 23:35:18 <cjd> I can't really see the reason for storing the tx count, you get a tx and either it hashes into the header or it doesn't, right?
1211 2012-11-13 23:35:37 <sipa> it's not part of the header
1212 2012-11-13 23:35:48 <sipa> so it's not hashed either
1213 2012-11-13 23:36:09 <sipa> it just always follows the header so the parser knows how many transactions to parse
1214 2012-11-13 23:36:33 <sipa> block headers are 80 bytes
1215 2012-11-13 23:36:40 <cjd> oh ok so it's more for deserialization of the block structure on the wire
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1219 2012-11-13 23:37:49 <phantomcircuit> huh my bitcoin-alt code cant generate a valid version message anymore
1220 2012-11-13 23:37:56 <phantomcircuit> what changed?
1221 2012-11-13 23:37:58 <topace> sipa: okay done compiling, just waiting for it to startup
1222 2012-11-13 23:38:56 <sipa> phantomcircuit: since when?
1223 2012-11-13 23:39:38 <sipa> phantomcircuit: which version does it claim?
1224 2012-11-13 23:39:41 <topace> topace@www1:~$ ./bitcoind move sess_lkgsj1v0kep40fad5c8pcg6862 main_pool 2 0
1225 2012-11-13 23:39:42 <topace> true
1226 2012-11-13 23:39:50 <topace> looks liek that fixed it!
1227 2012-11-13 23:39:53 <phantomcircuit> sipa, some bullshit version
1228 2012-11-13 23:39:59 <sipa> phantomcircuit: no answer
1229 2012-11-13 23:39:59 <phantomcircuit> i like like 3000 or something dumb
1230 2012-11-13 23:40:06 <phantomcircuit> i think*
1231 2012-11-13 23:40:18 <topace> sipa: thank you so much! lets make sure that gets into 0.7.2 !!
1232 2012-11-13 23:40:36 <phantomcircuit> actually i'll just copy/pasta from wireshark
1233 2012-11-13 23:40:38 <phantomcircuit> that'll do
1234 2012-11-13 23:41:03 <sipa> phantomcircuit: as of february 20, 2012, the earlier support protocol version is 209
1235 2012-11-13 23:41:28 <cjd> phantomcircuit: here (pm)
1236 2012-11-13 23:41:33 <sipa> topace: well we're already pretty far into doing 0.8.0
1237 2012-11-13 23:41:42 <sipa> topace: but perhaps this warrants a 0.7.1.1 or so
1238 2012-11-13 23:41:58 <topace> well, whichever :)
1239 2012-11-13 23:41:58 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ?
1240 2012-11-13 23:42:00 <phantomcircuit> cjd, hehe i have one :)
1241 2012-11-13 23:42:05 <cjd> long as you don't mind your code telling bitcoind it's cjdns ;)
1242 2012-11-13 23:42:05 <topace> ill update the forum thread too, thanks
1243 2012-11-13 23:42:12 <Luke-Jr> I have a few commits on top of 0.7.1 right now, but nothing I seen that's major?
1244 2012-11-13 23:42:25 <sipa> Luke-Jr: move causes the rpc thread to lockup
1245 2012-11-13 23:42:44 <sipa> Luke-Jr: since CWallet::IncOrderPosNext()
1246 2012-11-13 23:43:03 <sipa> it creates a second CWalletDB object, while another is holding the db lock
1247 2012-11-13 23:43:16 <Luke-Jr> sipa: is this fixed in master? O.o
1248 2012-11-13 23:43:19 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no
1249 2012-11-13 23:43:23 <Luke-Jr> ah, that's why I missed it
1250 2012-11-13 23:43:40 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i just wrote the fix an hour ago, and it seems to fix the problem for topace
1251 2012-11-13 23:43:55 <Luke-Jr> well, when it's in master I'll be sure to merge it into 0.7.x âº
1252 2012-11-13 23:44:46 <topace> Luke-Jr: just confirmed it fixed it now :) at least for me
1253 2012-11-13 23:45:05 <topace> code looks safe to merge too, from what i know :p (not much, lol)
1254 2012-11-13 23:46:03 <sipa> Luke-Jr: #2009
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1258 2012-11-13 23:51:53 <D34TH> sipa: #2012 the last pull req
1259 2012-11-13 23:51:56 ivan\ has joined
1260 2012-11-13 23:52:12 <D34TH> the mayans say that it will break our coins
1261 2012-11-13 23:52:42 <sipa> D34TH: the last pull req is #2147483647 :p
1262 2012-11-13 23:53:27 <D34TH> sipa: why not #18446744073709551615
1263 2012-11-13 23:53:28 <cjd> why does everything have to be in little endian all the time?!
1264 2012-11-13 23:53:50 <sipa> cjd: no offence, but human digit order is big endian
1265 2012-11-13 23:54:12 <sipa> D34TH: that'd take too long :D
1266 2012-11-13 23:54:40 <cjd> 18:39 < sipa> D34TH: the last pull req is #2147483647 :p <-- when I see I number like this I immedietly think "oh great I forgot to byte swap it"
1267 2012-11-13 23:55:04 <sipa> cjd: nope, that's just 0x7FFFFFFF
1268 2012-11-13 23:55:22 <D34TH> why not 0xFFFFFFFF
1269 2012-11-13 23:55:37 <sipa> D34TH: that'd take too long :D
1270 2012-11-13 23:55:42 <D34TH> lool
1271 2012-11-13 23:56:42 <D34TH> 0x07D4