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 57 2012-11-20 02:58:00 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: was it you talking about a bitcoin meetup somewhere in RDU area?
 58 2012-11-20 02:58:10 <jgarzik> past or future
 59 2012-11-20 03:00:46 * Luke-Jr is meeting up with gmaxwell, forrestv, and amiller tomorrow in Orlando <.<
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 82 2012-11-20 04:29:18 <Luke-Jr> whee, successfully running a "sub-pool" under Eligius or BitMinter using GBT :D
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 84 2012-11-20 04:40:57 <theymos> I was using an old version of bitcoind (~0.6) on blockexplorer.com, and it looks like someone exploited a DoS attack: The disk was nearly filled up with blkxxxx.dat files. Probably fixed in the newer Bitcoin versions, but I thought it was interesting.
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 89 2012-11-20 05:05:27 <Luke-Jr> theymos: 0.6.4?
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 91 2012-11-20 05:05:52 <theymos> Probably not. One of the earlier versions of 0.6, I think.
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 95 2012-11-20 05:14:00 <theymos> I think I was using code I grabbed from git at commit dd199d0. I saved the blkxxx files if anyone wants to look at them.
 96 2012-11-20 05:14:30 <Luke-Jr> theymos: can I get the first 1 MB of the last one?
 97 2012-11-20 05:14:54 <theymos> OK, just a minute.
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101 2012-11-20 05:16:26 <Luke-Jr> theymos: actually, make it 3 MB just in case
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105 2012-11-20 05:19:51 <theymos> Luke-Jr: https://blockexplorer.com/d/dosLast
106 2012-11-20 05:20:12 <theymos> (Just noticed that I misnamed it: it's really the front.)
107 2012-11-20 05:21:14 <theymos> 14 blkxxxx files were created. Then it seems bitcoind couldn't really handle any more and it became too slow to do anything.
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113 2012-11-20 05:31:59 <Luke-Jr> theymos: this is interesting, they look like valid blocks
114 2012-11-20 05:32:16 <Luke-Jr> theymos: any chance you could setup a SSH account with read-only access to them so we don't need to transfer the whole files?
115 2012-11-20 05:32:50 <theymos> Sure.
116 2012-11-20 05:39:15 <theymos> Luke-Jr: Sent you a msg.
117 2012-11-20 05:39:38 <Luke-Jr> theymos: ok thanks
118 2012-11-20 05:40:08 <Luke-Jr> not sure I'll get to it tonight, but maybe we can connect it at the meetup tomorrow and take a look as a group or something
119 2012-11-20 05:40:53 <theymos> OK. I'm also going to sleep soon.
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144 2012-11-20 07:30:24 <Godzilla123_> Hi another qn about transactions :P
145 2012-11-20 07:30:47 <Godzilla123_> A received x bitcoins from X and y from Y.
146 2012-11-20 07:30:54 <Godzilla123_> A wants to send x+y bitcoins to B
147 2012-11-20 07:31:16 <Godzilla123_> so tx will reference the old tx from X and Y
148 2012-11-20 07:31:30 <Godzilla123_> and it will say give (x+y) bitcoins to B
149 2012-11-20 07:31:46 <Godzilla123_> what will A sign here
150 2012-11-20 07:31:56 <Godzilla123_> how man signatures will this tx from A to B contain
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152 2012-11-20 07:33:40 <Godzilla123_> how many signatures will this tx from A to B contain
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155 2012-11-20 07:37:17 <midnightmagic> A signs the output tx to B. it'll require one signature on that output.
156 2012-11-20 07:37:43 <midnightmagic> you can check yourself by building the raw tx and decoding it afterwards..
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171 2012-11-20 08:20:13 <jgarzik> ;;bc,halfreward
172 2012-11-20 08:20:18 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
173 2012-11-20 08:22:02 <jgarzik> ;;bc,halfreward
174 2012-11-20 08:22:03 <gribble> Estimated time of bitcoin block reward halving: Sun Sep  1 19:39:00 2013 | Time remaining: 40 weeks, 5 days, 18 hours, 30 minutes, and 0 seconds
175 2012-11-20 08:22:12 gjs278 has joined
176 2012-11-20 08:22:36 <jgarzik> nanotube: gribble is bonkers :)
177 2012-11-20 08:22:59 * bonks gribble
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180 2012-11-20 08:54:23 <Godzilla123_> midnightmagic: How do I do that? can you please send me a reference
181 2012-11-20 08:54:48 <Godzilla123_> midnightmagic: here is another way to put my question (hopefully this is more clear)
182 2012-11-20 08:55:39 <Godzilla123_> I make a tx (A<--X, A<--Y) --> B
183 2012-11-20 08:55:59 <Godzilla123_> so I must sign (A <-- X) under A and (A <-- Y) under B
184 2012-11-20 08:56:03 <Godzilla123_> so I must sign (A <-- X) under A and (A <-- Y) under A
185 2012-11-20 08:56:40 <Godzilla123_> What about the entire tx (A<--X, A<--Y) --> B .... it also needs a signature from A.. so there must be three signatures
186 2012-11-20 08:57:02 <sipa> only the inputs contain signatures
187 2012-11-20 08:57:03 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
188 2012-11-20 08:57:17 <Godzilla123_> then anyone can replace the output by his own output
189 2012-11-20 08:57:45 <Godzilla123_> how is the input linked to output in an irremovable way?
190 2012-11-20 08:58:48 <xenland> whats X and Y?
191 2012-11-20 08:59:12 * xenland scrolled up
192 2012-11-20 08:59:13 <xenland> nvm
193 2012-11-20 08:59:26 <Godzilla123_> X and Y are previous tx outputs that send coins to A
194 2012-11-20 08:59:34 <Godzilla123_> A is the input for the current tx
195 2012-11-20 08:59:42 <Godzilla123_> and B is the output for the current tx
196 2012-11-20 09:00:03 <xenland> Are X and Y go into the same address or seperte?
197 2012-11-20 09:00:10 <xenland> separate*
198 2012-11-20 09:00:18 <Godzilla123_> same
199 2012-11-20 09:00:33 <Godzilla123_> X and Y are earlier transactions with A as output
200 2012-11-20 09:01:26 <xenland> Sounds like you just need one signature if your sending from one address(not to be confused with wallet)
201 2012-11-20 09:01:38 <xenland> As far as i understand
202 2012-11-20 09:01:49 <Godzilla123_> "Transactions are cryptographically signed records that reassign ownership of Bitcoins to new addresses. "
203 2012-11-20 09:01:53 <Godzilla123_> from the wiki
204 2012-11-20 09:01:57 <xenland> yep
205 2012-11-20 09:02:15 <Godzilla123_> so either way, when an input sends funds to an output the (Input, output) pair needs to be signed
206 2012-11-20 09:02:32 <Godzilla123_> otherwise anyone can replace the output with some other output before forwarding the request
207 2012-11-20 09:03:25 <xenland> As far as i understand you are correct
208 2012-11-20 09:03:39 <sipa> Godzilla123_: it's still the entirevtransaction being signed
209 2012-11-20 09:03:53 <sipa> but there is one signature for each input
210 2012-11-20 09:04:25 <sipa> so you can't change any part of the transaction without invalidating it
211 2012-11-20 09:04:54 <xenland> I think you just need two signatures to combine the Bitcoins into another address after that you just need one to send it out.
212 2012-11-20 09:05:05 <xenland> need one signature to send it out*
213 2012-11-20 09:05:59 <xenland> (The input/output terminology confuses me with out using the word Bitcoin address)
214 2012-11-20 09:06:07 <xenland> (Sorry for not sounding more properly on that area)
215 2012-11-20 09:06:18 <xenland> proper*
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217 2012-11-20 09:06:51 <sipa> xenland: get used to it, because internally bitcoin doesn't use addresses
218 2012-11-20 09:07:06 <sipa> that's just the authentication layer on top
219 2012-11-20 09:07:07 <xenland> sipa: good to know :)
220 2012-11-20 09:07:24 <sipa> transactions produce outputs, and consume outputs
221 2012-11-20 09:07:33 <xenland> Thats the confusing part
222 2012-11-20 09:07:48 <xenland> people using input output but its just one thing, not exactly seperate in my minds eye
223 2012-11-20 09:08:04 <xenland> Did you find your self having to hurddle over something like this?
224 2012-11-20 09:08:11 <sipa> an output creates a coin, an input consumes a coin
225 2012-11-20 09:08:17 <xenland> ah
226 2012-11-20 09:08:26 <sipa> yes, it took me a few months to understand that
227 2012-11-20 09:08:51 <xenland> good to know
228 2012-11-20 09:09:03 <xenland> outputs also mean "transferring coins" too right? or is that different way too?
229 2012-11-20 09:09:26 <sipa> an output is an amount+an address
230 2012-11-20 09:09:35 <sipa> so it gets "assigned" to someone
231 2012-11-20 09:09:55 <xenland> okay, that helps a lot acutally
232 2012-11-20 09:10:01 <xenland> interesting
233 2012-11-20 09:10:30 <sipa> an input is the hash of the tx whose output is being consumed, the outout# of it being consumed, the public key corresponding to the address of the previous output, and a signature to prove it
234 2012-11-20 09:10:40 <sipa> in the common case
235 2012-11-20 09:11:19 <sipa> so inputs consume coins by proving ownership, recombine them, split them, and potentially reassign them
236 2012-11-20 09:12:21 <xenland> gotcha
237 2012-11-20 09:12:31 * xenland writes down some more notes....
238 2012-11-20 09:13:53 <Godzilla123_> for each input, I need one signature that unlocks the funds from the prev output
239 2012-11-20 09:14:17 <Godzilla123_> because the verification crieteia may be different, so there should be one signature each
240 2012-11-20 09:15:24 <Godzilla123_> but now when I combine the funds into a bulk and send them to a bunch of outputs, how do I cryptographically link them? I need a signature again on the whole thing. So I think in the example we will need 3 signatures
241 2012-11-20 09:16:16 <Godzilla123_> otherwise things will be simpler if we just need one signature on the entire thing and not one for each input
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243 2012-11-20 09:16:53 <Godzilla123_> so the wiki is not very clear on this
244 2012-11-20 09:17:03 <Godzilla123_> and looking inside the protocol is too messy
245 2012-11-20 09:17:46 <xenland> I'm guessing you already checked the Raw transactions wiki page? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Raw_Transactions#Input_selection_control
246 2012-11-20 09:18:29 <xenland> If no one has the answer, i guess whats left is to test it
247 2012-11-20 09:19:02 <Godzilla123_> no I have not.. let me check if I can figure it using the
248 2012-11-20 09:19:03 <sipa> Godzilla123_: the thing being signed is a hash of the (almost) entire transaction
249 2012-11-20 09:19:19 <sipa> but there is oje signature in every input
250 2012-11-20 09:19:28 <Godzilla123_> ok.
251 2012-11-20 09:19:41 <Godzilla123_> and the entire transaction is signed by which key.. ?
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253 2012-11-20 09:20:00 <sipa> the key required by the output being spent
254 2012-11-20 09:20:08 <sipa> which is different for eaxh input
255 2012-11-20 09:20:32 <Godzilla123_> so the entire tx will be signed by multiple keys?
256 2012-11-20 09:20:38 <sipa> yes
257 2012-11-20 09:20:57 <sipa> it's not the actual entire transaction
258 2012-11-20 09:21:09 <sipa> in particular, the signatures themselves are not signed
259 2012-11-20 09:21:13 <Godzilla123_> hmm so it will be signed for each key of the input.. if I am correct
260 2012-11-20 09:21:18 <sipa> as tgat would cause an infinite loop
261 2012-11-20 09:21:31 <sipa> correct
262 2012-11-20 09:21:38 <Godzilla123_> so the signature overhead is O(#inputs)
263 2012-11-20 09:21:46 <sipa> correct
264 2012-11-20 09:22:01 <Godzilla123_> ya of course, signatures themselves are not signed :)
265 2012-11-20 09:22:24 <sipa> it makes sense, but it comolicates everything a lot in oractice :)
266 2012-11-20 09:23:08 <Godzilla123_> can you confirm that for n inputs, there are 2n signatureS?
267 2012-11-20 09:23:17 <xenland> I think so yea
268 2012-11-20 09:23:26 <xenland> I believe that is in some wiki page i read or somthing
269 2012-11-20 09:23:41 <Godzilla123_> and all this is specified in some RFC or somewhere I guess :)
270 2012-11-20 09:24:20 <xenland> Theres alot of info on everything its just really scattered to know if your right or not thats why I'm writing notes, i'm trying to build a Pseudo-client
271 2012-11-20 09:24:45 <Godzilla123_> Im trying to write a paper on the security / anonymity of bitcoin
272 2012-11-20 09:24:54 <Godzilla123_> so I need to understand exactly what is signed etc
273 2012-11-20 09:24:55 <xenland> sipa would have to confirm what you said though about the n to n2 thing
274 2012-11-20 09:25:01 <Godzilla123_> but not want to get my hands dirty with code
275 2012-11-20 09:25:03 <Godzilla123_> or protocols
276 2012-11-20 09:25:12 <xenland> oh i think i have good link for you in that case
277 2012-11-20 09:25:18 <xenland> let me see if i bookmarked it
278 2012-11-20 09:25:29 <sipa> Godzilla123_: heh?
279 2012-11-20 09:25:34 <Godzilla123_> a signature linking some input-outputs for example reduces anonymity
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281 2012-11-20 09:25:42 <sipa> why would there be two signatures for each input?
282 2012-11-20 09:26:20 <xenland> hmmm true
283 2012-11-20 09:26:31 <Godzilla123_> sipa I think using this logic. Each input needs one signature to unlock it from previous output
284 2012-11-20 09:26:37 <Godzilla123_> so n signatures for n inputs
285 2012-11-20 09:26:40 <sipa> yes
286 2012-11-20 09:26:53 <sipa> that's all there is
287 2012-11-20 09:27:02 <xenland> Here is something that might help you visuialize but its alot of info at once: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=29416.0
288 2012-11-20 09:27:07 <Godzilla123_> and then the entire tx needs a signature.. but the question was under which public key does this signature verify
289 2012-11-20 09:27:09 <xenland> visualize*
290 2012-11-20 09:27:51 <sipa> Godzilla123_: for every input, there is one signature: the data being signed is the entire transaction itself, the key is the one demaned by the coin being soent
291 2012-11-20 09:28:06 <Godzilla123_> how do I link the outputs of the current tx with the inputs, so that no one else (e.g. the miner) replaces the actual output address with his address
292 2012-11-20 09:28:08 <sipa> this proves the previous owner of the coin approves of it being used in this transaction
293 2012-11-20 09:28:17 <Godzilla123_> checking link
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295 2012-11-20 09:28:32 <sipa> because ifbyou change the transaction, all signatures become invalid!
296 2012-11-20 09:28:37 <xenland> Godzilla123, by signing your using the private key approriate to the public key (i think)
297 2012-11-20 09:28:38 <Godzilla123_> sipa: ah that is better
298 2012-11-20 09:28:40 <sipa> the data being signed is the transaction
299 2012-11-20 09:28:41 <Godzilla123_> I think it clears
300 2012-11-20 09:28:46 <sipa> so changing that breaks
301 2012-11-20 09:28:57 <Godzilla123_> so each private key signs the entire transaction
302 2012-11-20 09:29:15 <xenland> Godzilla: yeah and its verifyiable by the public key (Bitcoin address)
303 2012-11-20 09:29:17 <Godzilla123_> that is what I was thinking. Why not do that :)
304 2012-11-20 09:29:20 <Godzilla123_> in the first place
305 2012-11-20 09:29:43 <xenland> (obviously im' still learning so listen to sipa first LOL)
306 2012-11-20 09:30:02 <Godzilla123_> sipa:  thanks for that
307 2012-11-20 09:30:10 <Godzilla123_> :)
308 2012-11-20 09:31:03 <Godzilla123_> I consider inputs and outputs as addresses
309 2012-11-20 09:31:10 <Godzilla123_> is there anything wrong in this assumption
310 2012-11-20 09:31:32 <xenland> As far as sipa explained earlyer to me if your a developer yes
311 2012-11-20 09:31:41 ibno has joined
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313 2012-11-20 09:32:10 <Godzilla123_> input is actually a tuple (address, prev output ref)
314 2012-11-20 09:32:28 <Godzilla123_> output is simply address
315 2012-11-20 09:32:31 <xenland> If i had to guess, i'd say no, unless you had to escalate the details of the inter workings of Bitcoins for someone who is capable of understanding
316 2012-11-20 09:33:10 <xenland> I think the output only exists in pairs of an input
317 2012-11-20 09:33:13 <Godzilla123_> xenland: what language are you writing the client in
318 2012-11-20 09:33:18 <Godzilla123_> and what libraries are you using
319 2012-11-20 09:33:25 <xenland> In every language
320 2012-11-20 09:33:27 <xenland> but
321 2012-11-20 09:33:32 <xenland> the kicker is that its written in english
322 2012-11-20 09:33:34 <xenland> Pseudo-Code
323 2012-11-20 09:33:47 <xenland> so far I just have java and php to generate and verify addresses
324 2012-11-20 09:33:58 <xenland> and then the English explanations along with them
325 2012-11-20 09:34:00 <t7> im rubbish at playing mtgox
326 2012-11-20 09:34:25 <xenland> (and i think Inputs are attached by their signatures)
327 2012-11-20 09:34:40 <xenland> so basically an Bitcoin adddress is just proof of ownership in a sense with this logic
328 2012-11-20 09:34:52 <xenland> becuase your just signing the transactions away to another
329 2012-11-20 09:34:58 <xenland> or proving you own those transactions
330 2012-11-20 09:35:18 <Godzilla123_> is there a #bitcoin-research
331 2012-11-20 09:35:34 <xenland> proof of transactions equals proof of currency and its verifyable
332 2012-11-20 09:35:57 Internet13 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
333 2012-11-20 09:36:01 <xenland> http://xenland.github.com/Bitcoin-Pseudocode-Client/
334 2012-11-20 09:36:07 <xenland> Some more material
335 2012-11-20 09:36:24 <xenland> See a Bitcoin address created in action step by step http://xenland.github.com/Bitcoin-Pseudocode-Client/verifyaddress.html
336 2012-11-20 09:37:23 <xenland> I had someone help me with these pages too
337 2012-11-20 09:37:39 <xenland> The information given on these pages are proveable by executing the code
338 2012-11-20 09:37:40 <t7> i started a micro crypto currency before just to help me realize how it worked
339 2012-11-20 09:37:40 <Godzilla123_> proof of ownership is the signature
340 2012-11-20 09:37:42 <t7> it was fun
341 2012-11-20 09:38:42 <Godzilla123_> so the major overhead in a tx is the signatures if I am right
342 2012-11-20 09:39:03 <xenland> t7: I looked into hashcash I'm thinking of building my own simple currency with out all the high-grade security
343 2012-11-20 09:39:11 <xenland> t7:Any source code left over?
344 2012-11-20 09:39:22 <xenland> Gozilla123_ what kind of overhead? storage size?
345 2012-11-20 09:39:22 <robbak> Doesnt' mention that the last 8 chars are the first 8 of the hashed address.
346 2012-11-20 09:39:33 <Godzilla123_> transmission and storage
347 2012-11-20 09:39:40 <Godzilla123_> each input needs one signature
348 2012-11-20 09:39:41 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
349 2012-11-20 09:39:48 <t7> no it was really simple though, like 400 lines of haskell
350 2012-11-20 09:39:55 <xenland> robbak: i figured I'd leave that explaination to those who can see it and those who can't see it don't need to learn yet :P
351 2012-11-20 09:40:01 Internet13 has joined
352 2012-11-20 09:40:07 <Godzilla123_> sipa: can you please confirm that each input signs the same tx
353 2012-11-20 09:40:08 <t7> i should have made it a literate haskell file
354 2012-11-20 09:40:18 jgarzik has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
355 2012-11-20 09:40:26 <t7> maybe i will do it again
356 2012-11-20 09:40:31 <Godzilla123_> and there are n signatures for n inputs
357 2012-11-20 09:40:31 <robbak> Godzilla123: Ok, Ok, :D
358 2012-11-20 09:40:47 * xenland seraches haskell
359 2012-11-20 09:41:03 <xenland> oh that would be cool
360 2012-11-20 09:41:20 <xenland> That would be perfect for pseudo client project
361 2012-11-20 09:41:29 <xenland> A lazy programming language perfect
362 2012-11-20 09:41:39 <Godzilla123_> xenland: tell me what exactly is a pseudo client :)
363 2012-11-20 09:41:49 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
364 2012-11-20 09:42:53 jgarzik has joined
365 2012-11-20 09:42:56 <xenland> Godzilla123: To explain how the Bitcoin works, you run the bitcoin client in your mind. just how i would explain to a child why a volcano erupts I show the child visually and step by step and explain the chain reactions involved and pressure constraints cause the vineger and baking soda to pick the path of least resistance
366 2012-11-20 09:43:13 <xenland> But instead its with Bitcoin
367 2012-11-20 09:43:16 jgarzik is now known as Guest41552
368 2012-11-20 09:43:43 <Godzilla123_> cool
369 2012-11-20 09:43:51 <t7> xenland: the most awkward bit was having to implement my own elliptic curve crypto. But i found a really nice paper that walked me through it
370 2012-11-20 09:44:07 <Godzilla123_> t7 can you please share that paper
371 2012-11-20 09:44:29 <t7> 2 secs
372 2012-11-20 09:44:31 <Godzilla123_> or a link
373 2012-11-20 09:44:59 <xenland> t7: plz do! :) every time i hear the word curve itself i cringe!
374 2012-11-20 09:45:20 <xenland> let alone crypto and elliptic :P
375 2012-11-20 09:45:20 tsche has joined
376 2012-11-20 09:46:25 <t7> i printed it out but i have lost it :|
377 2012-11-20 09:46:57 <t7> http://hosteddocs.ittoolbox.com/AN1.5.07.pdf i think this was it
378 2012-11-20 09:47:48 <t7> the awkward bit for me was modular arithmetic. x / y (mod z)  is not the same as (x / y) % z
379 2012-11-20 09:47:57 <t7> i had to use egcd
380 2012-11-20 09:48:02 <t7> but you will work all this out :)
381 2012-11-20 09:49:18 <Godzilla123_> t7 unless y divides x
382 2012-11-20 09:49:23 <Godzilla123_> in which case it works :)
383 2012-11-20 09:49:44 <t7> i should have gone to university
384 2012-11-20 09:52:38 <Godzilla123_> that papers look good will check it out
385 2012-11-20 09:53:34 <xenland> Great find t7 thanks
386 2012-11-20 10:06:16 darsk1ez has quit (Quit: brb)
387 2012-11-20 10:06:36 <Godzilla123_> what does "1 confirmation" mean?
388 2012-11-20 10:06:50 <Godzilla123_> does it mean that tx is part of a that has been mined
389 2012-11-20 10:07:04 <Godzilla123_> part of a block
390 2012-11-20 10:08:03 <Godzilla123_> nvm
391 2012-11-20 10:08:04 <Godzilla123_> Bitcoin confirmations represent the number of blocks in the block chain that have been accepted by the network since the block that includes the transaction.
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395 2012-11-20 10:14:41 <Godzilla123_> its still not clear if the output addresses can be repeated. It makes sense for outputs to not be repeated
396 2012-11-20 10:14:57 <Godzilla123_> becuase then when referring to a previous output, we can just refer to the tx id
397 2012-11-20 10:15:05 <Godzilla123_> otherwise, we have to refer to individual output
398 2012-11-20 10:15:28 <Godzilla123_> sipa: can you comment? :)
399 2012-11-20 10:15:53 Joric has joined
400 2012-11-20 10:18:40 <Godzilla123_> or we can refer to the index of the output.. not a big issue
401 2012-11-20 10:19:39 <Godzilla123_> xenland: that link you sent on bitcointalk is very useful
402 2012-11-20 10:21:00 <t7> Godzilla123 a transaction can have multiple inputs and outputs i believe. But you have to spend all the inputs
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406 2012-11-20 10:21:36 <t7> so if i send you 1 BTC and i have 50 BTC, it will create 1 output to you and 1 output to me (49 come back to me)
407 2012-11-20 10:21:54 <t7> im not very good at explaining things ....
408 2012-11-20 10:22:09 <t7> i remember trying to teach my ex how to play poker
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410 2012-11-20 10:23:40 <xenland> np godzilla123_
411 2012-11-20 10:24:22 <xenland> t7: that sounds right, and kinda explains why i keep seeing two input/outputs per transaction
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415 2012-11-20 10:36:17 <Godzilla123_> t7 np that is a good explanation
416 2012-11-20 10:36:53 <Godzilla123_> essentially each output can be uniquely referenced by (tx ID, output index)
417 2012-11-20 10:37:07 <Godzilla123_> I was interested to know how the output is referenced
418 2012-11-20 10:37:26 <Godzilla123_> I didnt realize there was an index :)
419 2012-11-20 10:37:42 <Godzilla123_> so was worried how would be disambigute repeated outputs
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430 2012-11-20 11:00:56 <t7> whats the time error allowance for a block?
431 2012-11-20 11:01:50 <t7> wiki says 2 hours ....
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435 2012-11-20 11:06:05 <MC1984> is android still open source?
436 2012-11-20 11:06:14 <MC1984> or did they give up with that
437 2012-11-20 11:07:00 <robbak> NO, it's still 9open source. The curretn version of Andriod was released alonside the first 4.2 handsets.
438 2012-11-20 11:07:31 <robbak> Of course, tivoization of third party handsets is alive and well.
439 2012-11-20 11:11:27 <MC1984> what now
440 2012-11-20 11:12:07 <MC1984> can you compile your own android for your phone
441 2012-11-20 11:12:17 <MC1984> are there android distros you can install?
442 2012-11-20 11:13:21 <robbak> Yes, the most well knows is cyanogen. The only problem is that many handsets have locked bootloaders, and check that firmware is signed by the manufacturer's private key.
443 2012-11-20 11:14:21 <MC1984> thats terrible
444 2012-11-20 11:14:57 <robbak> Not that there aren't ways around that.
445 2012-11-20 11:15:29 <MC1984> seems like everything locked down is the future of cmputing :/
446 2012-11-20 11:15:43 <MC1984> app stores are fuckin wildly popular
447 2012-11-20 11:16:31 <robbak> The list of phones that work with cyanogen, either using manufacturer approved methods or hacks, is fairly comprehensive.
448 2012-11-20 11:17:27 <MC1984> yeah but locked bootloaders and shit is still the official position of the future
449 2012-11-20 11:17:46 <robbak> You lock'em down, we jemmy them back open. Hey-ho, arround we go, happy hackers all.
450 2012-11-20 11:17:59 <MC1984> look at iphones, they seems to be getting harder and harder to jailbreak as the cat and mouse game goes on
451 2012-11-20 11:18:34 <MC1984> the PS3 only just got busted open and the xbox never really did
452 2012-11-20 11:18:50 <MC1984> i like hackers but i fear its a war they cant keep winning forever
453 2012-11-20 11:19:41 <MC1984> especially when whats at stake might be general computation
454 2012-11-20 11:19:57 <MC1984> pray to stallman :(
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462 2012-11-20 11:47:23 <t7> will bitcoin clients ignore transaction with inputs that dont exist? or just hold them till they do?
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469 2012-11-20 12:19:46 <sipa> t7: that's called the orphan transaction pool
470 2012-11-20 12:20:09 <sipa> t7: they're kept in memory, and randomlynerased when the pool becomes too big
471 2012-11-20 12:20:27 <sipa> Godzilla123: each input signs the entire transaction yes
472 2012-11-20 12:21:10 <Godzilla123> sipa: rhanks
473 2012-11-20 12:21:23 <sipa> Godzilla123: but it's not the full transaction that is beig signed, there is some postprocessing (like removing signatures, and doing some replacements/erasing as well)
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476 2012-11-20 12:21:47 <Godzilla123> sipa: ok where are the details about this
477 2012-11-20 12:21:56 <sipa> Godzilla123: source code
478 2012-11-20 12:22:12 <Godzilla123> satoshi's code?
479 2012-11-20 12:22:15 <sipa> yes
480 2012-11-20 12:22:18 <kjj_> also, signing the whole thing is just the default.  there are flags that allow signing reduced parts too
481 2012-11-20 12:22:20 <Godzilla123> ok
482 2012-11-20 12:22:34 <sipa> yes, satoshi thought a lot about this
483 2012-11-20 12:22:37 <t7> in b4 formally verified crypto currency
484 2012-11-20 12:22:55 <sipa> and had probably use cases in mind we don't know about any more
485 2012-11-20 12:22:55 <Godzilla123> thats the only thing I have not checked yet
486 2012-11-20 12:23:03 <kjj_> and there is a wiki page that describes the pre-processing
487 2012-11-20 12:23:07 <sipa> well, there are reimplementations
488 2012-11-20 12:23:50 <sipa> kjj_: not detailed enough to implement it yourself fully i think
489 2012-11-20 12:24:10 <t7> scared of collisions from other peoples sigs/addresses ?
490 2012-11-20 12:25:24 <kjj_> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKSIG
491 2012-11-20 12:25:27 <kjj_> there it is!
492 2012-11-20 12:25:27 <sipa> Godzilla123: check SignatureHash in script.cpp
493 2012-11-20 12:26:20 <kjj_> sipa: I don't know if it is enough to implement signing, but it sure helps get you started
494 2012-11-20 12:26:20 <Godzilla123> ok
495 2012-11-20 12:26:53 <Godzilla123> ok
496 2012-11-20 12:27:16 <sipa> oh, that is certainly more detailed than i remember it
497 2012-11-20 12:27:42 <kjj_> etotheipi wrote up a TON of stuff after he figured it out writing armory
498 2012-11-20 12:27:51 <Godzilla123> so current clients all reuse the same code?
499 2012-11-20 12:28:11 <t7> i hope not
500 2012-11-20 12:29:07 <sipa> no they all have their oen implementation for this
501 2012-11-20 12:29:24 <Godzilla123> how would one go about making slight changes here and there in the protocol
502 2012-11-20 12:29:25 <kjj_> if you are just looking to create and sign your own transactions, that is fairly easy.  if you are looking to verify signatures from the stock client, that is harder because it has to cover all cases
503 2012-11-20 12:29:40 <Godzilla123> say I want to add another check that satoshi didnt think of or maybe add another feature
504 2012-11-20 12:29:53 <t7> Godzilla123: thats another protocol
505 2012-11-20 12:29:56 <sipa> bitcoinj, bitcoinjs, libbitcoin, bitsofproof, ... all have scriot implementations now
506 2012-11-20 12:30:11 <t7> you will not be compatible with the existing network, you will get out of sync
507 2012-11-20 12:30:14 <Godzilla123> so it will be a fork
508 2012-11-20 12:30:18 <sipa> Godzilla123: the rules are defined by the satoshi code, no way to change it without breakinh compatobility
509 2012-11-20 12:30:20 <kjj_> just edit the stock client if you just want to make tweaks.
510 2012-11-20 12:30:49 <Godzilla123> say I want to propose an enhancement that increases anonymity
511 2012-11-20 12:30:59 <Godzilla123> but will require slight tweaks in the way signatures are computed..
512 2012-11-20 12:31:11 <kjj_> forget it
513 2012-11-20 12:31:13 <sipa> impossible without a hard fork
514 2012-11-20 12:31:13 <Godzilla123> we can say that from block X onwards, this logic is also allowed
515 2012-11-20 12:31:26 <sipa> if everyone upgrades, yes
516 2012-11-20 12:31:34 <kjj_> well, if your idea is good enough, maybe.  but basically, assume that it won't happen
517 2012-11-20 12:31:35 <sipa> but that is hard
518 2012-11-20 12:31:44 <Godzilla123> is it easy to change the signature scheme?
519 2012-11-20 12:31:58 <Godzilla123> and the verifying logic.. without changing anything else
520 2012-11-20 12:32:03 <sipa> as i said: that is a hard fork
521 2012-11-20 12:32:19 <sipa> and we won't do a hard fork without very good reason
522 2012-11-20 12:32:21 <Godzilla123> ok
523 2012-11-20 12:32:37 <Godzilla123> when was the last one
524 2012-11-20 12:32:49 <sipa> there had not rver been one
525 2012-11-20 12:33:44 <kjj_> if you want to improve anonymity, set up a system that lets nodes automatically coordinate pooled spending
526 2012-11-20 12:34:25 <kjj_> but that's quite a bit more than a tweak
527 2012-11-20 12:34:32 <sipa> Godzilla123: there is an exception: if you change a rule that only makes things that were allowed invalid, and not the other way around, you don't need a hard fork
528 2012-11-20 12:34:52 <sipa> it suffices for >50% of mining power to upgrade for such rules
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530 2012-11-20 12:36:54 <Godzilla123> cool.. most likely it will be that way
531 2012-11-20 12:37:25 <sipa> bip16, bip30 and bip34 are examples of such "soft forks"
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536 2012-11-20 12:46:16 <sturles> Do some sites have trouble with coins sent in a sendmany transaction?  I get messages from buyers claiming they haven't received their coins, while other people I sent to in the same transaction received theirs.  The recepients who have problems use some kind of web service/wallet, but nobody have told me which.  Any reason why this could happen?
537 2012-11-20 12:46:46 <sturles> Nobody who got their soins in a standard sendtoaddress transaction have complained.
538 2012-11-20 12:46:53 <sturles> *coins
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543 2012-11-20 12:59:53 <kinlo> sturles: if you send coins with a regular send, some coins are sent back to your wallet
544 2012-11-20 13:00:16 <kinlo> sturles: in other words, there is no real difference between a transaction sent with sendmany or a 1 target send
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546 2012-11-20 13:00:40 <kinlo> sturles: the receipients will always have to be able to look trough all transaction outputs
547 2012-11-20 13:00:53 <kinlo> sturles: so there should not be any problem
548 2012-11-20 13:01:55 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
549 2012-11-20 13:02:03 <sturles> There shouldn't, but if I send to more than one user of the same service, it is always a possibility that the service stops processing after the first known recipient in a transaction.
550 2012-11-20 13:02:17 <sturles> A stupid service that is.
551 2012-11-20 13:02:42 <kinlo> well, I have no clue about such services
552 2012-11-20 13:03:02 <kinlo> and I've been using sendmany for over a year now, never had anyone complain about not receiving their funds
553 2012-11-20 13:03:20 <kinlo> the stock bitcoin client didn't do it correctly tough
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576 2012-11-20 15:09:40 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell jgarzik yea, I had mentioned the idea of an RDU bitcoin meetup a long time ago...Id still do it though
577 2012-11-20 15:09:40 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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580 2012-11-20 15:16:54 AlbusTalpa has joined
581 2012-11-20 15:27:21 <sipa> rdu?
582 2012-11-20 15:27:53 <sipa> raleigh durham airport apparently
583 2012-11-20 15:28:37 theorb_ is now known as theorbtwo
584 2012-11-20 15:29:20 <BlueMatt> yea, this area of north carolina
585 2012-11-20 15:29:59 <sipa> i'm only familiar with the few places in the us i've been :)
586 2012-11-20 15:30:13 <BlueMatt> heh, fair enough
587 2012-11-20 15:30:28 <sipa> BlueMatt: saw my comments on the bloomfilter pullreq?
588 2012-11-20 15:30:38 <sipa> some are perhaps more for general discussion
589 2012-11-20 15:30:57 Diapolo has joined
590 2012-11-20 15:30:59 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, I have a few hours travel time today and will hopefully be addressing those
591 2012-11-20 15:31:16 <BlueMatt> (in addition to working more on bitcoinj implementations)
592 2012-11-20 15:31:49 <sipa> yeah, i think it would be nice to demonstrate its functionality if both sides were implemented and working together
593 2012-11-20 15:32:09 <BlueMatt> yep
594 2012-11-20 15:32:17 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
595 2012-11-20 15:32:28 <sipa> but i hope we can merge soon
596 2012-11-20 15:34:59 <BlueMatt> hopefully after thanksgiving this week I will have addressed all outstanding issues
597 2012-11-20 15:35:22 freakazoid has joined
598 2012-11-20 15:35:34 <sipa> well the filteradd without load issue maybe needs some discussion on the mailiglist rather than the pullreq
599 2012-11-20 15:36:00 <BlueMatt> agreed
600 2012-11-20 15:38:26 <gavinandresen> I'm on the 'you must load first' side of that issue
601 2012-11-20 15:40:07 <sipa> BlueMatt: is porting cpartialtree to java easily doable?
602 2012-11-20 15:40:25 <sipa> cpartialmerkle or how did i call it
603 2012-11-20 15:40:48 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, I did most of the verification stuff already (almost all copy/paste refactor)
604 2012-11-20 15:41:01 <BlueMatt> not that that is how it should be ported, but...meh it works
605 2012-11-20 15:41:09 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: Im somewhat partial to that as well
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608 2012-11-20 15:45:40 <sipa> BlueMatt: by the way, a potential vulnerability of the merkle structure in general: the server can always claim a smaller total number of transactions, and use internal merkle hashes as leaf txids
609 2012-11-20 15:46:23 <sipa> since you're trusting the server for not omitting matched stuff anyway, that's not really a problem
610 2012-11-20 15:47:05 <kjj_> talking about UTXO again, right?
611 2012-11-20 15:47:25 <sipa> but maybe when two server reply for the same filtered block, and the number of txs in the block differs, you need to trust the larger one
612 2012-11-20 15:47:34 <sipa> kjj_: no, filteree blocks
613 2012-11-20 15:48:31 <kjj_> ahh, ok.  I was going to say the block proper would need to include the transaction bodies, and the server would be unable to fake them
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615 2012-11-20 15:51:58 <BlueMatt> sipa: true, probably never a bad idea to ask multiple nodes for filtered blocks
616 2012-11-20 15:52:21 <kjj_> just have the receiver treat each node in the tree as not-final until it either has subnodes or a transaction
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652 2012-11-20 17:29:17 * helo notes that the acronym for Atomic Bitcoin Exchange is ABE :D
653 2012-11-20 17:31:13 <helo> (which is great as they ensure an honest exchange occurs)
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661 2012-11-20 17:40:16 <Godzilla123> In the bitcoin protocol, what else can we put as the verification condition?
662 2012-11-20 17:40:59 <Godzilla123> within the script
663 2012-11-20 17:42:44 <Godzilla123>  The script for a typical Bitcoin transfer to destination Bitcoin address D simply encumbers future spending of the bitcoins with two things: the spender must provide a public key that, when hashed, yields destination address D embedded in the script, and a signature to show evidence of the private key corresponding to the public key just provided
664 2012-11-20 17:43:08 <Godzilla123> apart from the *typical Bitcoin transfer* what else can we do
665 2012-11-20 17:46:44 <kjj_> well...  really any script that evaulates true will work
666 2012-11-20 17:47:14 <kjj_> but most nodes won't relay them or include them in blocks that they are attempting to mine, so most people have to limit themselves to the standard set
667 2012-11-20 17:48:19 <kjj_> there are pubkey transactions, address transactions, multisig (multiple pubkey) transactions.  and P2SH versions of some or all of those
668 2012-11-20 17:53:40 <ThomasV> https://www.v.me/
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672 2012-11-20 17:58:43 <Godzilla123> kjj_: ok
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675 2012-11-20 18:07:45 <BlueMatt> https://www.chargeback.cc/
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704 2012-11-20 19:24:34 <midnightmagic> doh.
705 2012-11-20 19:24:41 * midnightmagic clearly hasn't built a raw tx in a while.
706 2012-11-20 19:28:04 <midnightmagic> why would one sign outputs, it would be more complicated to combine sigs on the output in the event num(in) != num(out)
707 2012-11-20 19:28:18 <midnightmagic> thanks sipa.
708 2012-11-20 19:28:51 <kjj_> ?
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741 2012-11-20 21:37:51 <wizkid057> why did this transaction need change? couldn't bitcoind have simply used a single output since there was a perfect amount of inputs? https://blockchain.info/tx-index/33428910/9698856fa2bcaf91316a29cd2c8adbf93debae8ffb92a91842c1dda63699ec37
742 2012-11-20 21:38:13 <wizkid057> (the 0.01 BTC was the change, obviously)
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744 2012-11-20 21:40:08 <kjj_> meh.  the coin selector can be a bit funny at times
745 2012-11-20 21:41:01 <wizkid057> ie, broken? :P
746 2012-11-20 21:41:13 <kjj_> no, just funny
747 2012-11-20 21:41:33 <kjj_> the problem it is working on is unsolvable (NP)
748 2012-11-20 21:41:59 <wizkid057> making larger than needed transacions doesnt seem funny... seems wasteful
749 2012-11-20 21:42:01 <kjj_> so it uses an approximate solver, and sometimes the chosen solution isn't ideal.  but that isn't the same as broken
750 2012-11-20 21:42:36 <kjj_> if you have a better algorithm for picking coins to spend, we'd love to see your patch.
751 2012-11-20 21:42:56 <wizkid057> i just might do that... or at least add code for simple results like this
752 2012-11-20 21:43:16 <freewil> the default client might be made to always create a change output no matter what
753 2012-11-20 21:43:22 <wizkid057> seems trivial for it to test the inputs to see if any of them negate the change output
754 2012-11-20 21:43:29 <gmaxwell> It does not.
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756 2012-11-20 21:43:54 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: IIRC it tries an exact match first. Do you even know who created that txn?
757 2012-11-20 21:44:01 <wizkid057> I did
758 2012-11-20 21:44:51 <wizkid057> admittedly, that client is out of date... "version" : 60103
759 2012-11-20 21:45:26 <gmaxwell> oh well there was an old odd behavior that did that in some cases.
760 2012-11-20 21:45:29 <kjj_> what will really bake your noodle is that you don't know if a fee is needed when you are picking coins
761 2012-11-20 21:46:05 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: would it be more than trivial if I attempted to patch the client to do a double check to see if any input coin values matched the change value?
762 2012-11-20 21:46:11 <gmaxwell> Yea, that produces some "but it's wrong!" allegations that are just weirdness from the selection objective not being convex.
763 2012-11-20 21:46:23 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: you don't need to do that.
764 2012-11-20 21:46:32 <wizkid057> seems like i do
765 2012-11-20 21:46:47 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: seems like you need to run software which doesn't have old bugs.
766 2012-11-20 21:46:57 <wizkid057> hmm
767 2012-11-20 21:47:13 <kjj_> wizkid057: here's the real problem...  0.2+0.5+0.3 might need a fee, but 0.2+0.5+0.3+0.01 might not.  odd as that may seem to you, it really can happen
768 2012-11-20 21:47:25 <wizkid057> well, if that was corrected, then, my apologies ;)
769 2012-11-20 21:47:50 <gmaxwell> kjj_: yea, though that doesn't look like the case here.
770 2012-11-20 21:48:14 <kjj_> gmaxwell: the question is whether the picker knows enough in advance to make that call or not
771 2012-11-20 21:48:37 <kjj_> pretty easy for us to say, 2.7 days later, that it looks funny.  much harder to do in real time
772 2012-11-20 21:49:35 <gmaxwell> Thats just the non-convexity. Bitcoin uses a relaxation over the fees and because the objective is non-linear that can't always give optimal results.
773 2012-11-20 21:49:36 <kjj_> I guess you could get your candidate set ready, save a copy, then see if the transaction will still work with an extra input removed or not, and fail back to the copy
774 2012-11-20 21:51:00 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: See commit 831f59ce8b179bd3180a73499da9b1dc1d5ecaeb
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777 2012-11-20 21:52:54 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: nice, thanks :)
778 2012-11-20 21:53:05 <wizkid057> guess I should update eventually
779 2012-11-20 21:53:08 <wizkid057> lol
780 2012-11-20 21:53:17 * gmaxwell DOS attacks wizkid057 
781 2012-11-20 21:53:43 <wizkid057> oh well
782 2012-11-20 21:53:43 <wizkid057> lol
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818 2012-11-20 23:30:11 <jgarzik> meh
819 2012-11-20 23:30:25 <jgarzik> parsing src/test/data/script*.json is annoying
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