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 57 2012-11-24 02:58:08 <wizkid057>     "errors" : "This is a pre-release test build - use at your own risk - do not use for mining or merchant applications"
 58 2012-11-24 02:58:11 <wizkid057> but i wanna.....
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 61 2012-11-24 03:09:27 <D34TH> its not really a error
 62 2012-11-24 03:09:36 <D34TH> its more of a "HEY LISTEN"
 63 2012-11-24 03:10:02 <wizkid057> hm... wth is the difficulty on testnet3?
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 65 2012-11-24 03:10:23 <D34TH> sec
 66 2012-11-24 03:10:25 <D34TH> ill get it
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 68 2012-11-24 03:10:39 <wizkid057> getinfo says 1, but that must be a lie
 69 2012-11-24 03:11:14 <D34TH> "difficulty" : 177.61478768,
 70 2012-11-24 03:11:25 <D34TH> i just dont think its done a full retarget to 1
 71 2012-11-24 03:11:29 <D34TH> its supposed to be 1
 72 2012-11-24 03:11:39 <wizkid057> doh
 73 2012-11-24 03:12:34 <wizkid057>     "difficulty" : 1.00000000,
 74 2012-11-24 03:12:39 <wizkid057> not sure why mine is lying
 75 2012-11-24 03:12:39 <wizkid057> lol
 76 2012-11-24 03:12:44 <D34TH> yea it shows that on mine
 77 2012-11-24 03:12:49 <D34TH> but look 2 blocks back
 78 2012-11-24 03:14:08 <wizkid057> interesting
 79 2012-11-24 03:15:40 <D34TH> suddenly main net flips to one diff
 80 2012-11-24 03:15:43 <D34TH> everyone cries
 81 2012-11-24 03:16:04 <SomeoneWeird> lol
 82 2012-11-24 03:19:15 <wizkid057> haha
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 91 2012-11-24 03:58:48 <Luke-Jr> wizkid057: getinfo tells you the difficulty of the LAST block
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103 2012-11-24 04:59:08 <jgarzik> sipa: noted
104 2012-11-24 04:59:17 * jgarzik is out of commission for a while, so fixups won't be immediate
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111 2012-11-24 06:32:58 <swulf--> i have paytxfee=0.00 in bitcoin.conf, why is it that sendfrom/sendtoaddress will still sometimes charge a fee?
112 2012-11-24 06:33:47 <gmaxwell> swulf--: Bitcoin will apply a fee when it itself would have treated the txn as a DOS attack otherwise— because it's rapidly respending recent payments or has outputs less than 0.01 BTC.
113 2012-11-24 06:34:08 <gmaxwell> ("it itself" and thus ~all your peers)
114 2012-11-24 06:34:16 <swulf--> understood
115 2012-11-24 06:34:52 <swulf--> is there a different rpc call that will tell me so i can confirm the fee before proceeding instead of just doing it behind the scenes?
116 2012-11-24 06:35:45 <gmaxwell> No, not currently. It's complicated because the fee need and amount depends on the state of all your inputs— so new txn or blocks can change it.
117 2012-11-24 06:35:58 <gmaxwell> The gui prompts, but blocks all processing in bitcoin in order to accomplish that.
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121 2012-11-24 06:36:16 <swulf--> ah
122 2012-11-24 06:36:32 <swulf--> an 'acceptfeeiflessthanX' could work, in the rpc code
123 2012-11-24 06:36:51 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: if you merge my ancient pullreq, you can get bitcoind to error if the fee is >= some maximum
124 2012-11-24 06:36:55 <swulf--> as well as telling me what the fee ended up being in the output after executing sendfrom/sendto
125 2012-11-24 06:37:02 <gmaxwell> I believe luke had a patch for that basically.
126 2012-11-24 06:37:06 <swulf--> ah, neat
127 2012-11-24 06:37:33 <gmaxwell> Ah. yea.
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129 2012-11-24 06:37:33 <Luke-Jr> 1645 (originally 557)
130 2012-11-24 06:37:53 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: safe rest of your trip?
131 2012-11-24 06:38:03 <gmaxwell> swulf--: if it helps you at all, the fee can't be higher than 0.05 BTC with the unmodified software— and even that is only in the insane 100kbyte transaction case.
132 2012-11-24 06:38:28 <swulf--> well
133 2012-11-24 06:38:43 <swulf--> if i'm running a merchant site, similar to mtgox, then you can imagine how the fees would add up
134 2012-11-24 06:38:46 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I'm still not back home yet— which is why I haven't been on much... I'm in Juno tonight.
135 2012-11-24 06:39:47 <gmaxwell> swulf--: No, I can't in fact. Normal fees are only 0.0005 when they aren't zero. Making them larger requires really inefficient transactions (lots of dust inputs). Just charge your customers a fixed 0.001 fee— or something like that— on withdraws and you'll cover them easily.
136 2012-11-24 06:39:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ah, well I hope the rest remains safe then! ☺
137 2012-11-24 06:40:14 <gmaxwell> (even if a few are larger)
138 2012-11-24 06:40:55 <swulf--> gmax, good call.
139 2012-11-24 06:40:57 <swulf--> thanks
140 2012-11-24 06:41:06 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
141 2012-11-24 06:41:31 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: also more fair, since the sender isn't the one determining the fee cost ;)
142 2012-11-24 06:41:52 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: note that MtGox also has out-of-band peering agreements with some pools to process their transactions without fee in all cases
143 2012-11-24 06:42:17 <swulf--> that would be nice, but not good for a small site like what i'm interested in
144 2012-11-24 06:45:20 <swulf--> thanks:)
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150 2012-11-24 07:27:56 <midnightmagic> wait "Juno" or "Juneau"?
151 2012-11-24 07:29:41 <gmaxwell> hah. The one you can wear flipflops at.
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155 2012-11-24 07:44:39 <midnightmagic> LOL
156 2012-11-24 07:44:54 <midnightmagic> I was going to call you crazy.
157 2012-11-24 07:45:12 <midnightmagic> and then ask you say hello to some people
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171 2012-11-24 08:32:19 <weenfan> looking for a way to broadcast a raw tx I made
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175 2012-11-24 08:59:37 <weenfan> i wonder how long a never confirming tx will drop from blockchain.info?
176 2012-11-24 09:00:24 <weenfan> I send some coins that were double spent in another tx and mixed them w/ good coin .. any way to broadcast a raw tx I made that doesn't contain the bad coin?
177 2012-11-24 09:06:20 <freewil> create a new transaction without the bad coin?
178 2012-11-24 09:07:45 <weenfan> yep
179 2012-11-24 09:07:57 <weenfan> did that .. I have the rawtx made but no way to broadcast it
180 2012-11-24 09:08:27 <weenfan> sendrawtransaction from the console returns -22
181 2012-11-24 09:08:30 <freewil> sendrawtransaction rpc call
182 2012-11-24 09:08:42 <weenfan>  00:56:11  TX rejected (code -22)
183 2012-11-24 09:09:01 <weenfan> It's still downloading the blocks though
184 2012-11-24 09:09:16 <freewil> maybe it doesnt have the inputs yet?
185 2012-11-24 09:09:27 <freewil> or it's invalid for some other reason
186 2012-11-24 09:09:33 <weenfan> 010000000278487e111c7fb119a5cfc95e66492cc21df66f04d87d5f70b6b682e19c17804b010000008a47304402208f596efbdde07d1a7bfe58adf11a372df7236dd7d0aea6aa16421734f2ff60720220ba4f36f2068eae3c66cee52d9d3fb5761c2d622e10ec0a738365d510b11a9c9f014104b5a121a1eeb30eccf50b319c3dcf7f4c8d313ef9f099b51c1b3badfbde82989df3b553d2419ffed3b0545eac9bcd2b3fd5ac40212ee1e943ed3d6c4923d84f15ffffffff894f7a17b745737b7516d50320eed76de30a61c42aff6924fcf3b018d19583300
187 2012-11-24 09:09:57 <weenfan> I'm thinking my client does not have the blockchain downloaded yet
188 2012-11-24 09:10:16 <freewil> probably
189 2012-11-24 09:10:19 <weenfan> blockchain.info has the bad transaction still in it's db
190 2012-11-24 09:10:20 <freewil> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Raw_Transactions
191 2012-11-24 09:10:27 <weenfan> so I can't send it from there either
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193 2012-11-24 09:12:33 <weenfan> anyone mind pasting that in their client's console? .. heh
194 2012-11-24 09:12:47 <weenfan> sendrawtransaction 010000000278487e111c7fb119a5cfc95e66492cc21df66f04d87d5f70b6b682e19c17804b010000008a47304402208f596efbdde07d1a7bfe58adf11a372df7236dd7d0aea6aa16421734f2ff60720220ba4f36f2068eae3c66cee52d9d3fb5761c2d622e10ec0a738365d510b11a9c9f014104b5a121a1eeb30eccf50b319c3dcf7f4c8d313ef9f099b51c1b3badfbde82989df3b553d2419ffed3b0545eac9bcd2b3fd5ac40212ee1e943ed3d6c4923d84f15ffffffff894f7a17b745737b7516d50320eed76de30a61c42aff69
195 2012-11-24 09:13:58 <weenfan> Error Pushing Transaction An outpoint is already spent .. << error from using https://blockchain.info/pushtx
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201 2012-11-24 09:23:54 <weenfan> Trying out multibit .. :)
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220 2012-11-24 12:02:19 <ThomasV> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=127536.msg1354466#msg1354466
221 2012-11-24 12:02:39 <ThomasV> I suppose I might get banned for that post
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223 2012-11-24 12:03:20 <sipa> little bobby tables...
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225 2012-11-24 12:03:37 <ThomasV> yeah
226 2012-11-24 12:05:41 <ThomasV> unfortunately, theymos has no sense of humor
227 2012-11-24 12:06:22 <sipa> oh, that's in bitcointalk? :s
228 2012-11-24 12:06:35 <ThomasV> yup :)
229 2012-11-24 12:07:03 <ThomasV> well, dropping tables is not the most interesting thing to try.
230 2012-11-24 12:11:20 <SomeoneWeird> <ThomasV> unfortunately, theymos has no sense of humor < lol +1 to that
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314 2012-11-24 17:19:50 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
315 2012-11-24 17:19:51 <gribble> 209385
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324 2012-11-24 17:29:55 <Matt_von_Mises> For anyone confused about the "Segmented Block Relaying": https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=103295.msg1354828#msg1354828
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332 2012-11-24 17:46:47 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
333 2012-11-24 17:46:47 <gribble> 209390
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355 2012-11-24 18:45:20 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: Thanks for replying to the thread. I made a reply: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=103295.0 The purpose of the proposal is primarily a method for parrellel block downloads.
356 2012-11-24 18:45:53 <Matt_von_Mises> It's a very rough idea. It's something that I might come back to at a later stage.
357 2012-11-24 18:47:03 <BlueMatt> Matt_von_Mises: Im still confused as to why you should just download part of a block at a time, seems needless to split up individual blocks
358 2012-11-24 18:48:06 <Matt_von_Mises> Not "part of a block at a time" but "multiple parts of a block at once"
359 2012-11-24 18:48:25 <BlueMatt> yes, ok, but still...why?
360 2012-11-24 18:49:45 <Matt_von_Mises> The same reason bittorrent downloads from multiple peers.
361 2012-11-24 18:49:53 <Matt_von_Mises> "I do not suggest that this proposal is important right now. I was thinking about the future and the increasing demand for block-space."
362 2012-11-24 18:50:29 <BlueMatt> is this a suggestion for if max block size is increased or for when blocks reach current max block size?
363 2012-11-24 18:50:40 <D34TH> hey bluematt, if a client is synced up to the network
364 2012-11-24 18:50:42 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #156: FAILURE in 5.2 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/156/
365 2012-11-24 18:50:46 <BlueMatt> awww
366 2012-11-24 18:50:51 <D34TH> do all blockchain files have the same hash?
367 2012-11-24 18:51:33 <maaku> D34TH: no
368 2012-11-24 18:51:42 <D34TH> maaku, why not?
369 2012-11-24 18:51:59 <BlueMatt> orphans
370 2012-11-24 18:52:03 <maaku> blocks are stored in order received, not block chain order
371 2012-11-24 18:52:05 <maaku> and orphan blocks
372 2012-11-24 18:52:20 BlueMattBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
373 2012-11-24 18:52:27 <D34TH> damn, i was hoping i could quickly diagnose which file on my server broke abe and transfer it over
374 2012-11-24 18:52:36 <D34TH> thanks maaku BlueMatt
375 2012-11-24 18:52:42 <Matt_von_Mises> BlueMatt: I do not know when the proposal will become beneficial and how much it will influence download speeds without the right data. It's something that people would almost certainly need to start thinking about if the max block size increases.
376 2012-11-24 18:52:57 BlueMattBot has joined
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379 2012-11-24 18:53:38 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #157: STILL FAILING in 1 min 15 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/157/
380 2012-11-24 18:54:21 <D34TH> im getting 500 internal server error
381 2012-11-24 18:54:22 <D34TH> D:
382 2012-11-24 18:54:42 <BlueMatt> D34TH: the server is moving (the dns points to the old one still, sorry)
383 2012-11-24 18:54:47 <D34TH> ahh
384 2012-11-24 18:54:56 <BlueMatt> Matt_von_Mises: ok, so there is the problem I have, I agree if we increase max block size significantly we may want something like that, but for current max block size, I have yet to see much, if any, evidence that that would be necessary on current block sizes
385 2012-11-24 18:55:41 <Matt_von_Mises> BlueMatt: You are probably right. My proposal was never designed to be implemented now. I was jsut thinking ahead about what could be done about the scalability issues.
386 2012-11-24 18:55:51 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: premature optimization is the root of all evil :)
387 2012-11-24 18:56:04 <BlueMatt> Matt_von_Mises: considering the max block size may never be changed, it seems premature :)
388 2012-11-24 18:56:16 <sipa> changing the network protocol is easy, compared with changing the validity rules
389 2012-11-24 18:56:34 <Matt_von_Mises> The max block size is one of the most controversial issues I think.
390 2012-11-24 18:56:42 <sipa> it certainly is
391 2012-11-24 18:56:49 <BlueMatt> yep
392 2012-11-24 18:56:51 <sipa> but it also one of the hardest things to change
393 2012-11-24 18:57:01 <sipa> (of those that seem viable to change at all)
394 2012-11-24 18:57:04 <BlueMatt> sipa: its controversial for that reason ;)
395 2012-11-24 18:57:42 <BlueMatt> jenkins is faaaast
396 2012-11-24 18:58:16 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes... "huh 5 new mails tonight? oh, all pullreq tests :p"
397 2012-11-24 18:58:47 <BlueMatt> sipa: better than waiting a week :)
398 2012-11-24 19:11:13 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
399 2012-11-24 19:11:13 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #158: FIXED in 11 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/158/
400 2012-11-24 19:11:30 <BlueMatt> woo
401 2012-11-24 19:11:48 <D34TH> dns fixed
402 2012-11-24 19:11:49 <D34TH> :3
403 2012-11-24 19:11:57 <BlueMatt> 11 minutes for a build :)
404 2012-11-24 19:12:19 <D34TH> :O
405 2012-11-24 19:13:08 freakazoid has joined
406 2012-11-24 19:13:12 <D34TH> quick dl speeds also
407 2012-11-24 19:13:17 <D34TH> 1.9 MB/s
408 2012-11-24 19:17:34 <jgarzik> block size is an economic resource
409 2012-11-24 19:17:38 <jgarzik> intentionally limited
410 2012-11-24 19:17:45 <jgarzik> otherwise miner incentives are all screwed up
411 2012-11-24 19:18:14 <TD> i think that's a debate we need to have in the core developer group and eventually reach consensus, btw
412 2012-11-24 19:18:18 <TD> i'm in favor of a floating limit
413 2012-11-24 19:18:54 <ThomasV> floating how? to optimize miners profit?
414 2012-11-24 19:18:58 <TD> no
415 2012-11-24 19:19:21 <TD> aim for having blocks be slightly larger than the average demand. a bit like difficulty.
416 2012-11-24 19:19:46 <TD> if blocks are constantly full then raise the limit in steps until blocks stop being full
417 2012-11-24 19:19:59 <TD> ie, attempt to meet all demand, with throttling in place so you can't troll the network with an unusually huge block
418 2012-11-24 19:23:00 <sipa> that may encourage miners to garbage-fill blocks that would otherwise be unfull
419 2012-11-24 19:23:24 <TD> why?
420 2012-11-24 19:23:45 <sipa> to be able to cash more fees at times when there are more transactions
421 2012-11-24 19:23:59 <sipa> (not saying I'm against it, just raisaing a maybe-far-fetched concern)
422 2012-11-24 19:24:10 <TD> and how would they know if there are going to be more transactions? if the system is working correctly, they should always be able to include the transactions they want to
423 2012-11-24 19:24:21 <TD> only if there's a sudden, very unusual surge in transaction volume might that be an issue
424 2012-11-24 19:24:34 <TD> and by definition, if there's a sudden surge, miners probably didn't anticipate it
425 2012-11-24 19:25:04 <TD> if they DID anticipate it, then "stuffing the blocks" is basically just a hack to get a collective vote on a size adjustment, and if that was felt to be a useful thing, it could be added as a feature
426 2012-11-24 19:25:11 <sipa> ok, let's say there is a consistently higher valid-transaction-creation-rate on weekdays vs weekends
427 2012-11-24 19:25:43 <sipa> in that case, miners may be encouraged to fill their own weekend blocks to the notch, to be able to raise the blocksize more quickly to deal with it during the week
428 2012-11-24 19:26:21 <sipa> probably too far-fetched, but i essentially don't like miners being able to control the block size
429 2012-11-24 19:26:22 <TD> that sounds like the flex period is set wrong, then
430 2012-11-24 19:26:46 <TD> i mean if it's calculated over a period of a month or two, then there should be no incentive to try and even out weekday/weekend differences
431 2012-11-24 19:27:33 <sipa> also, if the increase is limited to something corresponding to a few % per year, i would have even less problems
432 2012-11-24 19:28:32 <sipa> anyway, as a side note: bitcoind's mempool handling of conflicting transactions is broken, and always has been
433 2012-11-24 19:28:41 <TD> how so?
434 2012-11-24 19:28:59 <sipa> if a tx A is in the mempool, and a new block comes in which conflicts with A, A doesn't get removed
435 2012-11-24 19:29:03 <sipa> and lingers forever
436 2012-11-24 19:29:18 <TD> but it won't get included into newly mined blocks, of course
437 2012-11-24 19:29:21 <TD> so it's basically a memory leak
438 2012-11-24 19:29:24 <sipa> indeed
439 2012-11-24 19:29:40 <TD> but then does the mempool even have size limits originally?
440 2012-11-24 19:29:54 <sipa> don't think it ever had size limits
441 2012-11-24 19:30:13 <TD> i think the mempool will eventually just become another leveldb
442 2012-11-24 19:30:58 <sipa> (current head has an assert when running with -debug that triggers sometimes when the mempool has orphaned transactions)
443 2012-11-24 19:31:06 <sipa> so currently it's somewhat more than just a memory leak
444 2012-11-24 19:31:14 <sipa> but that's of course easier to fix
445 2012-11-24 19:31:55 <sipa> maybe conflicting transactions getting accepted wasn't a problem until recently, but now we see several a day, i think
446 2012-11-24 19:33:27 <TD> hm, really
447 2012-11-24 19:33:29 <TD> where do they come from
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456 2012-11-24 20:01:27 <jgarzik> IMO: block size should be increased manually
457 2012-11-24 20:01:37 <jgarzik> algorithmically, it is too easy to game
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459 2012-11-24 20:02:34 <Luke-Jr> manually = centralized authority
460 2012-11-24 20:03:57 <TD> more to the point, at some point bitcoin will reach the point email did where it can never be upgraded again because there are too many deployed nodes with unresponsive admins
461 2012-11-24 20:04:28 <TD> i think the underlying argument that needs to get resolved first is the economics of it
462 2012-11-24 20:04:29 <jgarzik> manually = community consensus, because it requires a hard fork
463 2012-11-24 20:05:04 <TD> once everyone agrees that the perfect state is "processing as many transactions as legitimate users want to make", the only question is, how do you get there
464 2012-11-24 20:05:23 <TD> jgarzik: miner consensus is nearly as good from this perspective as miners are more likely to be engaged
465 2012-11-24 20:06:10 <jgarzik> TD: it requires a hard fork, so miner consensus is insufficient
466 2012-11-24 20:06:16 <TD> well, yes, today it does
467 2012-11-24 20:06:18 <jgarzik> TD: miner consensus may also conflict with community needs
468 2012-11-24 20:06:24 <jgarzik> e.g. incentives to increase
469 2012-11-24 20:06:29 <TD> but if the hard fork moment is used to replace it with a floating block size, after that, no more are needed
470 2012-11-24 20:06:44 <jgarzik> I agree with sipa that floating block size may be gamed
471 2012-11-24 20:07:02 <TD> gamed in what sense? the perfect state would be unlimited block size, so nobody ever has to artificially wait for confirmation
472 2012-11-24 20:07:23 <TD> the only issue is trying to stop people trolling participants with enormous blocks that act as a DoS attack on participants
473 2012-11-24 20:07:46 <TD> the question then becomes "what is enormous" and obviously that will vary over time as legitimate use increases (or decreases)
474 2012-11-24 20:08:22 * Luke-Jr notes as long as a median is used, someone would need 51% to game the block size limits
475 2012-11-24 20:08:41 Arnavion has joined
476 2012-11-24 20:09:37 <TD> (i'm assuming here, that we gain consensus that mining can be funded in the absence of artificial caps trying to push up tx fees)
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484 2012-11-24 20:17:28 <edcba> manually suxx
485 2012-11-24 20:18:42 <jgarzik> TD: no, that's not the perfect state
486 2012-11-24 20:18:53 <jgarzik> TD: unlimited block size eliminates any economic incentive to pay for priority
487 2012-11-24 20:18:59 <edcba> enormous is not enough time to transmit before someone else find 2 blocks :)
488 2012-11-24 20:19:06 <TD> see my comment about gaining economic consensus
489 2012-11-24 20:19:31 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: no, it doesn't… miners still need to cover their electric costs
490 2012-11-24 20:19:47 <TD> i think it's obvious that unlimited IS the perfect long term state. the perfect payment system would let me send any amount of money, any time, instantly, for free, anywhere in the world, with no limits or artificial barriers and no scalability problems
491 2012-11-24 20:19:58 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: in a larger bitcoin network, vastly different incentives exist
492 2012-11-24 20:20:07 <edcba> the only economic thing to pay attention is tragedy of commons
493 2012-11-24 20:20:09 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: it is likely that, for example, Big Banks would mine at a loss, just to participate
494 2012-11-24 20:20:13 <TD> currently there is a lack of consensus on whether bitcoin can be that perfect payment system or whether it is destined to merely end up used for certain types of payments but not all, due to scalability or economic limitations
495 2012-11-24 20:20:36 <edcba> TD: doesn't matter time will tell :p
496 2012-11-24 20:20:50 <TD> block size limit is a decision that can affect the outcome quite significantly
497 2012-11-24 20:21:11 <TD> which is why we eventually need to wrestle this issue to the ground and keep it there
498 2012-11-24 20:21:14 <edcba> i think removing limit is maybe a solution
499 2012-11-24 20:21:24 <edcba> now we have to see what would be the effects
500 2012-11-24 20:21:37 <edcba> ie limit is maybe not the right way to handle that kind of abuse
501 2012-11-24 20:21:50 <Luke-Jr> hmm, my bitcoind seems to flood its peers at startup askign for mempool txns :D
502 2012-11-24 20:21:52 <TD> Luke-Jr: the argument (maybe jeffs argument) is that if there's no block size limit or other throttling in place, transaction fees and thus network speed will spiral towards zero
503 2012-11-24 20:22:16 <Luke-Jr> TD: I think that will stop as soon as it becomes unprofitable to mine
504 2012-11-24 20:22:27 <TD> Luke-Jr: because miners don't actually care about how much mining they do. they just want to claim the fees. eventually it could all wind back to be cpu mining based
505 2012-11-24 20:22:41 <sipa> that's the entire tragedy of the commons discussion, which i prefer not to repeat here
506 2012-11-24 20:22:44 <TD> yeah
507 2012-11-24 20:22:45 <sipa> imho, we just don't know
508 2012-11-24 20:22:49 <TD> i don't really feel like going round it again
509 2012-11-24 20:23:00 <TD> just that getting consensus on block size limit will eventually require consensus on it
510 2012-11-24 20:23:48 <sipa> jgarzik: regarding bug in your transport pulls, i got a free(unallocated_data) when destroying a CDataStream as part of a CNetMessage... my guess a CNetMessage that never got initialized
511 2012-11-24 20:23:53 <sipa> jgarzik: valgrind ftw
512 2012-11-24 20:24:01 * Luke-Jr notes there is always the possibility of non-miner nodes deciding "I won't relay blocks over size X, n% of the time"
513 2012-11-24 20:24:12 <Luke-Jr> or simply a "spend X kB/s relaying blocks at most"
514 2012-11-24 20:24:40 <edcba> yes instead of central authority maybe just let the client choose
515 2012-11-24 20:24:41 <Luke-Jr> thus having a p2p limit
516 2012-11-24 20:24:46 <edcba> indeed
517 2012-11-24 20:24:57 <sipa> edcba: and have a separate blockchain per client setting? :S
518 2012-11-24 20:25:06 <edcba> Luke-Jr: why n% ?
519 2012-11-24 20:25:16 <edcba> 0% or 100% is not enough for you ?
520 2012-11-24 20:25:21 <jgarzik> sipa: noted, thanks
521 2012-11-24 20:25:21 <Luke-Jr> edcba: to make the limit more soft
522 2012-11-24 20:25:33 * jgarzik leaves to go shit back down
523 2012-11-24 20:25:37 <Luke-Jr> edcba: so perhaps the default could be 0% of 2 MB or 50% of 1.5 MB etc
524 2012-11-24 20:25:52 <Luke-Jr> so 1.5 MB blocks have a poorer chance of being relayed
525 2012-11-24 20:25:56 <sipa> jgarzik: btw, not sure you saw my earlier comment about conflicting transactions lingering in the mempool
526 2012-11-24 20:25:57 <edcba> sipa: relaying not accepting
527 2012-11-24 20:25:58 <Luke-Jr> and 2 MB blocks very unlikely
528 2012-11-24 20:26:03 <TD> i prefer alternative ways to incentivize mining than trying to throttle the system and make people pay for access
529 2012-11-24 20:26:34 <sipa> pullreq coming up for that... i really like CTxMempool being encapsulated these days
530 2012-11-24 20:26:54 <Luke-Jr> sipa: get a chance to build rc1?
531 2012-11-24 20:27:09 <Luke-Jr> we need more people gitian-enabled :/
532 2012-11-24 20:27:10 <sipa> Luke-Jr: still on mobile data... not going to download a few hundred MB
533 2012-11-24 20:27:20 <Luke-Jr> ah
534 2012-11-24 20:27:54 <Luke-Jr> I think gitian-capable people has come down to sipa, gavin, wumpus, and myself :/
535 2012-11-24 20:28:01 <sipa> and BlueMatt
536 2012-11-24 20:28:05 <Luke-Jr> nope, his is broke
537 2012-11-24 20:28:19 * sipa thinks we want a gitian on the core dev server
538 2012-11-24 20:28:25 <sipa> or maybe not... trust issues
539 2012-11-24 20:28:35 <Luke-Jr> yeah, gitian only makes sense because different humans do it
540 2012-11-24 20:29:13 <BlueMatt> sipa: na, trust there...
541 2012-11-24 20:32:55 <sipa> yeah, true
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544 2012-11-24 20:37:08 <Luke-Jr> DBordello devrandom DrHaribo edcba midnightmagic wizkid057: any of you maybe able to setup gitian?
545 2012-11-24 20:38:29 darkee has joined
546 2012-11-24 20:38:43 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
547 2012-11-24 20:38:44 <gribble> 209410
548 2012-11-24 20:39:02 rdponticelli has joined
549 2012-11-24 20:39:47 <wizkid057> Luke-Jr: probably... just need it hosted some place?
550 2012-11-24 20:39:51 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
551 2012-11-24 20:40:01 <Luke-Jr> wizkid057: ideally local to you
552 2012-11-24 20:40:05 <wizkid057> ah
553 2012-11-24 20:40:10 <wizkid057> wonder if my router machine will run it :P
554 2012-11-24 20:40:13 <Luke-Jr> no
555 2012-11-24 20:40:31 <Luke-Jr> wizkid057: gitian controls a KVM or LXC instance
556 2012-11-24 20:40:44 <wizkid057> oh, gotcha
557 2012-11-24 20:40:46 <wizkid057> hmm
558 2012-11-24 20:41:20 <wizkid057> dont have any spare machines for that, then
559 2012-11-24 20:41:55 <sipa> you just need to run it from time to time (at releases), not continuously
560 2012-11-24 20:42:08 <Luke-Jr> wizkid057: I run it inside a KVM <.<
561 2012-11-24 20:42:15 <sipa> i just run it on my laptop
562 2012-11-24 20:43:29 <wizkid057> hmm
563 2012-11-24 20:43:42 <wizkid057> alright, i'll put that on my TODO list for sometime in the next few days
564 2012-11-24 20:50:27 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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566 2012-11-24 20:52:05 toffoo has quit ()
567 2012-11-24 20:52:41 <sipa> > 1% fees!
568 2012-11-24 20:53:24 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
569 2012-11-24 20:59:41 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ping
570 2012-11-24 20:59:41 vigilyn has joined
571 2012-11-24 21:00:13 <Luke-Jr> what makes https://people.xiph.org/~greg/ultraprune_profile2.png ? :/
572 2012-11-24 21:00:59 <sipa> kcachegrind
573 2012-11-24 21:01:00 devrandom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
574 2012-11-24 21:02:13 devrandom has joined
575 2012-11-24 21:03:06 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i' afraid i lost the nice commandline, but if you grep the logs of this channel, i'm sure you'll find it
576 2012-11-24 21:05:25 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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580 2012-11-24 21:06:30 <Luke-Jr> [Sunday, July 08, 2012] [5:09:11 PM] <gmaxwell> Sure, I'll reprofile, but I'll also tell you how. Install kcachegrind,  run valgrind like valgrind --tool=callgrind --trace-children=yes --collect-jumps=yes  --separate-threads=yes  ~/bitcoin/src/bitcoind    it will write out a bunch of callgrind files when the program stops (or you break it).  Start kcachgrind in that directory.  It's a gui app, the images were the 'caller tree' or
581 2012-11-24 21:06:32 <Luke-Jr> something like that.
582 2012-11-24 21:06:55 freewil has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
583 2012-11-24 21:07:14 <sipa> ^
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590 2012-11-24 21:19:42 <abrkn> how come i am paying 0.0005 tran fee when getinfo shows paytxfee 0.00000000?
591 2012-11-24 21:21:02 <Luke-Jr> because bitcoind forces fees if it thinks they're necessary
592 2012-11-24 21:21:41 <ThomasV> it thinks?
593 2012-11-24 21:21:42 <abrkn> so how do i know how much i am paying?
594 2012-11-24 21:21:56 <sturles> abrkn: Most likely because you paid with "young" coins.  The result of a transaction with less than 6 confirmations.  Could also be an output smaller than 0.01 BTC.
595 2012-11-24 21:21:57 <Luke-Jr> abrkn: you don't until after the fact.
596 2012-11-24 21:22:10 <sturles> Or (less likely) a transaction > 1 KB.
597 2012-11-24 21:22:30 <abrkn> sturles: output was small, yes. im not concerned about the fee itself, just that i dont know what it is
598 2012-11-24 21:22:30 <Luke-Jr> abrkn: also, the transaction fee needed has little to do with the transaction itself; more to do with your wallet
599 2012-11-24 21:22:33 <abrkn> hard to keep track of the wallet
600 2012-11-24 21:22:59 <Luke-Jr> abrkn: so, for example, it would be wrong to pass the fee on to a user asking for the transaction to be sent
601 2012-11-24 21:28:32 <Luke-Jr> sipa: callgrind is so painfully slow, I think it will take all day :<
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603 2012-11-24 21:36:57 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
604 2012-11-24 21:38:47 <sipa> Luke-Jr: several hours at least, sure
605 2012-11-24 21:38:57 <Luke-Jr> sigh
606 2012-11-24 21:39:20 <sipa> abrkn: the paytxfee setting is how much voluntary fee you pay per kilobyte
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612 2012-11-24 22:29:01 <Godzilla123> hi i need help with a transaction on satoshidice
613 2012-11-24 22:29:16 <Godzilla123> http://satoshidice.com/full.php?tx=6d97af51e7e20733748414c36e55b85774ef5ae14b98f3d28c5a7f0a92c2ae03
614 2012-11-24 22:29:43 <Godzilla123> the payment tx says "Sorry we could not find any blocks or transactions matching this hash"
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620 2012-11-24 22:47:21 <BlueMatt> sorry for the delay, but pull-tester is back up at its new home...see its first comment at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2033#issuecomment-10684635
621 2012-11-24 22:47:28 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
622 2012-11-24 22:47:31 <BlueMatt> (note that dns may be stale for a week or so)
623 2012-11-24 22:49:01 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell gavinandresen ok, jenkins fully moved, you can kill the old server :)
624 2012-11-24 22:49:01 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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632 2012-11-24 23:06:43 <TD> sipa: how is ultraprune doing?
633 2012-11-24 23:06:52 <TD> think it's getting stable enough to release soon?
634 2012-11-24 23:08:02 <Luke-Jr> doubt it, it's not even cleared for mining yet
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636 2012-11-24 23:09:13 * Luke-Jr should set up Eligius to test that <.<
637 2012-11-24 23:09:22 <TD> i think i saw some users are mining with it on p2pool at least. i saw a reference to that somewher
638 2012-11-24 23:09:44 <Luke-Jr> TD: right, but how many of them would notice if they were making invalid blocks?
639 2012-11-24 23:10:11 <TD> yeah, not sure. i guess the next step isn't really to mine, maybe, but to have one of those "compare multiple implementations in parallel" tools
640 2012-11-24 23:10:26 <Luke-Jr> TD: my test plan is to deploy some master-based bitcoind on Eligius in parallel with 0.6.0.x, and have the pool report any blocks created by master that 0.6.0.x doesn't like
641 2012-11-24 23:10:39 <Luke-Jr> TD: yeah, I have that basically all implemented in theory
642 2012-11-24 23:10:40 <TD> are you going to release those tools?
643 2012-11-24 23:10:59 <Luke-Jr> TD: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1816
644 2012-11-24 23:11:33 <TD> cool
645 2012-11-24 23:11:36 <Luke-Jr> TD: Eloipool already uses this to check the templates it produces; I just need to set it up to check against multiple servers, and before/after manipulation\
646 2012-11-24 23:11:53 harkon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
647 2012-11-24 23:12:07 <Luke-Jr> and logging any failures ofc
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651 2012-11-24 23:14:27 * TD shakes his fist at swiss air
652 2012-11-24 23:14:51 <TD> the act of me searching for the flights i need at christmas modified the price of them, asynchronously. bastards.
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655 2012-11-24 23:30:02 <TD> does bitcoin still require a specific version of boost?
656 2012-11-24 23:30:09 <TD> like, it fails with 1.5 or anything like that?
657 2012-11-24 23:30:58 <TD> i see matt upgraded us to boost 1.5
658 2012-11-24 23:31:01 <TD> hrm
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