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   4 2012-11-29 00:15:10 <hoarder> hi all.  I have a basic question: I can't seem to pull out the senders address on http://blockexplorer.com/q/mytransactions/1NUp3QShYAY9NwUa85epJftB6L1tLp8MDx even though this page clearly shows it http://blockexplorer.com/address/1NUp3QShYAY9NwUa85epJftB6L1tLp8MDx
   5 2012-11-29 00:16:17 <hoarder> the actual sender is 1GzMAicev1cXywysaF73iHFjcCpRRZnQTT
   6 2012-11-29 00:16:29 <sipa> bitcoin transactions do not have a sender address
   7 2012-11-29 00:17:12 <sipa> bitcoin transactions consume coins, merge them, split them in new coins, and assign those new coins to addresses
   8 2012-11-29 00:17:37 <sipa> you can look up the inputs of a transaction, and see which addresses those were previously assigned to
   9 2012-11-29 00:18:04 <hoarder> Would you expect the 1Gz address to be listed in /q/mytransactions?
  10 2012-11-29 00:18:05 <sipa> but that will not give you a "sender address", only one or more addresses which the sending software controlled
  11 2012-11-29 00:18:40 <hoarder> I have created a few receiving addresses and sometimes /q/mytransactions has an address from the sender but sometimes it doesn't
  12 2012-11-29 00:19:14 <sipa> transactions only list their output addresses and their input coins
  13 2012-11-29 00:19:26 <sipa> you can go look up what those input coins were previously assigned to
  14 2012-11-29 00:19:30 <hoarder> sometimes there is no output address?
  15 2012-11-29 00:19:55 <hoarder> http://blockexplorer.com/q/mytransactions/1NUp3QShYAY9NwUa85epJftB6L1tLp8MDx under "in" there is no address, sometimes there is
  16 2012-11-29 00:19:55 <sipa> in case of non-standard transactions there is no
  17 2012-11-29 00:20:13 <hoarder> I see
  18 2012-11-29 00:20:45 <sipa> the input coin in your case is 2649d70df342a13e921d72ffb637c6b44a14e979741260d6847b19f7985605a6:0
  19 2012-11-29 00:21:24 <hoarder> how do I turn that into an address that previously owned it?
  20 2012-11-29 00:21:47 <sipa> look up that transaction, and check the output 0
  21 2012-11-29 00:22:00 <sipa> also, why do you need a "sender address" ?
  22 2012-11-29 00:22:03 <hoarder> ahh, I see.  Ok
  23 2012-11-29 00:23:02 <hoarder> Because I have a case where I want to refund coins that are sent to me in some cases, and I want to know what address to send the coins back to.  Im thinking if I have an address that previously owned the coins then that is safe to send a refund to
  24 2012-11-29 00:23:46 <sipa> if you need to do a refund, ask for a refund address
  25 2012-11-29 00:24:10 <hoarder> Right, but I want to do that without asking for a refund address, the sender may never see me again but the right thing to do is to give a refund
  26 2012-11-29 00:24:22 <sipa> then ask one in advance
  27 2012-11-29 00:24:39 <sipa> sending back to an address the coins came from will not necessarily make them get where you want
  28 2012-11-29 00:24:53 <hoarder> I get what you are saying, but my requirement is to send back without having any more information than the transaction that sent me coins
  29 2012-11-29 00:25:08 <sipa> for example, in case of a shared e-wallet, the apparent "from address" may belong to a different user's account
  30 2012-11-29 00:25:21 <hoarder> true
  31 2012-11-29 00:25:31 <hoarder> but it will always get back to a wallet, correct?
  32 2012-11-29 00:25:41 <sipa> what if the wallet was deleted in between?
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  34 2012-11-29 00:25:49 <hoarder> then that's a problem for sure
  35 2012-11-29 00:26:04 <sipa> really, never send coins to an address unless you know the receiver is expecting them
  36 2012-11-29 00:26:55 <hoarder> with that understanding, do you care to discuss how you can find an address that owned a coin?  blockexplorer.com/address/ does it somehow
  37 2012-11-29 00:27:31 <sipa> (and relying on a central service to find that information is also a bad idea, imho...)
  38 2012-11-29 00:27:49 <hoarder> I want to find it myself, I am using blocke.com as a model
  39 2012-11-29 00:28:16 <hoarder> my system has to work even if someone takes over blockexplorer.com and fakes all the info
  40 2012-11-29 00:29:23 <hoarder> I appreciate the help, you've helped me understand transactions better, thanks
  41 2012-11-29 00:29:24 <sipa> go to http://blockexplorer.com/tx/2649d70df342a13e921d72ffb637c6b44a14e979741260d6847b19f7985605a6
  42 2012-11-29 00:29:36 <sipa> that's the transaction your input coin came from
  43 2012-11-29 00:30:10 <sipa> the 0th output is to 1GzMAicev1cXywysaF73iHFjcCpRRZnQTT
  44 2012-11-29 00:30:31 <hoarder> hmm, but index 1 is satoshidice, how do you know which one last had the coin?
  45 2012-11-29 00:31:09 <sipa> the consuming transaction mentions which index it spends
  46 2012-11-29 00:31:21 <sipa> "n":0
  47 2012-11-29 00:31:24 <hoarder> ahh the :0 part
  48 2012-11-29 00:31:35 <hoarder> Thanks for the info
  49 2012-11-29 00:31:44 <sipa> you can find the same information using bitcoind's getrawtransaction, btw
  50 2012-11-29 00:32:01 <hoarder> happy halving day btw
  51 2012-11-29 00:32:13 <sipa> it's not halving day anymore here :P
  52 2012-11-29 00:32:23 <sipa> but please *please* reconsider just sending back coins to previous addresses
  53 2012-11-29 00:32:28 <hoarder> happy belated halving day then
  54 2012-11-29 00:33:19 <hoarder> I get what you are saying, its unpredictable because things could have changed, having an address that someone is expecting to receive on makes sense
  55 2012-11-29 00:34:28 <sipa> you could of course list it explicitly, and warn people in advance that your service will send coins back to previous addresses
  56 2012-11-29 00:34:57 <sipa> but that's still unnecessary address reuse, and limiting your userbase
  57 2012-11-29 00:35:52 <hoarder> Right, the benefit is that I can get by with having no identity of the user
  58 2012-11-29 00:35:57 <hoarder> and still support a refund
  59 2012-11-29 00:36:16 <hoarder> if I have them enter an address then it has to be correlated to the first transaction which requires more work on their part
  60 2012-11-29 00:36:39 <hoarder> which could limit my user base :)
  61 2012-11-29 00:37:21 <sipa> hopefully we'll have a payment protocol soon to solve this problem
  62 2012-11-29 00:37:40 <sipa> where the bitcoin client sends the transaction, including a refund address and other metadata directly to you
  63 2012-11-29 00:37:59 <D34TH> `that's so meta`
  64 2012-11-29 00:38:04 <hoarder> that's cool, I'd help work on that
  65 2012-11-29 00:39:06 <sipa> hoarder: there's a discussion going on the development mailing list about it
  66 2012-11-29 00:39:15 <hoarder> thanks
  67 2012-11-29 00:39:32 <sipa> https://gist.github.com/4120476 is the working draft
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  69 2012-11-29 00:42:36 <sipa> ;;later tell gavinandresen small nit on the proposal by the way: if you want a HMAC of some data, you need to specify a key
  70 2012-11-29 00:42:36 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
  71 2012-11-29 00:43:53 <LightRider> ;;wp HMAC
  72 2012-11-29 00:43:53 <gribble> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash-based_message_authentication_code | In cryptography, a hash-based message authentication code (HMAC) is a specific construction for calculating a message authentication code (MAC) involving a ...
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  85 2012-11-29 01:03:05 * jgarzik diffs gmaxwell's srpm, and figures out where to stick -DPURIFY
  86 2012-11-29 01:03:14 <jgarzik> (answer: right up openssl's ass)
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  88 2012-11-29 01:07:22 <jrmithdobbs> that's usually the answer to anything involving openssl rly
  89 2012-11-29 01:08:01 <jgarzik> interesting.  a derivative of the bitcoin P2P message protocol: http://bitmessage.org/wiki/Main_Page
  90 2012-11-29 01:08:12 DaQatz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  91 2012-11-29 01:08:25 <jgarzik> uses the familiar satoshi message header format, but prefers SHA-512 to SHA-256
  92 2012-11-29 01:08:27 <jrmithdobbs> why would you start from that
  93 2012-11-29 01:09:22 <jrmithdobbs> definitely looks interesting though
  94 2012-11-29 01:11:50 <jrmithdobbs> 4 minutes per message but gpg is too much of a burden?
  95 2012-11-29 01:13:23 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
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  97 2012-11-29 01:14:22 <jrmithdobbs> and who is bradley? what happened to bob?
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 100 2012-11-29 01:15:25 xorgate has quit (Quit: Take it easy)
 101 2012-11-29 01:17:49 <gmaxwell> I'm happy to see a flooding chat network exits. But ... oy.
 102 2012-11-29 01:19:39 <jrmithdobbs> it's interesting but it seems to me the POW-per-message requirement undoes the circumventing of pgp/smime complexity (smime using whitelisted CAs or specific certs, not *the* PKI)
 103 2012-11-29 01:20:06 <jrmithdobbs> so it puts you back where you started. with gpg/etc there's a one time investment at ramp up vs ~4 minutes of work every message
 104 2012-11-29 01:20:31 <gmaxwell> I'm surprised it doesn't have integrated mix pooling.. at least as described in the paper it sounds quite traffic analysis vulnerable.
 105 2012-11-29 01:22:12 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: it proposes something that's effectively the same if I understand
 106 2012-11-29 01:22:18 <gmaxwell> Not sure why they don't do merged mining as the pow.
 107 2012-11-29 01:23:23 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: since the acks to a message can be an ack to multiple messages or the sending of another /etc it kind of has the same effect (assuming that's actually implemented)
 108 2012-11-29 01:23:39 <gmaxwell> freeking gui is incompatible with xmona.
 109 2012-11-29 01:23:44 <gmaxwell> er xmonad
 110 2012-11-29 01:24:39 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: no no. For example.  I dunno who you are, you send me some messages. I use my magical power to observe the whole network to coorelate the times your messages came in with which nodes were online and sending data around that time.
 111 2012-11-29 01:25:01 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: yes they cover that
 112 2012-11-29 01:25:25 stamit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 113 2012-11-29 01:25:30 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: section 7 and 8 both address it somewhat (7 more than 8) but are sparse on details
 114 2012-11-29 01:26:06 <jrmithdobbs> it doesn't really describe the how just the what
 115 2012-11-29 01:27:52 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: if I'm understanding correctly the ack includes sender provided data and said data can contain other messages of any type (pubkey request, ack, new message) in such a way that someone ack'ing your message that envelopes them sends the original message as well
 116 2012-11-29 01:29:11 <jrmithdobbs> I still want to know if bob is on vacation or what. That is irksome :P
 117 2012-11-29 01:29:59 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: I think bob was killed by apache helecoptors after being mistaken for an insurgent with a RPG.
 118 2012-11-29 01:30:43 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: it was bound to happen with all those secrets he's been keeping for so many years
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 120 2012-11-29 01:31:23 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: one of those messages he passed to alice was bound to decode with some terrorist's key into something sensical eventually!
 121 2012-11-29 01:31:39 <jrmithdobbs> poor bob :(
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 127 2012-11-29 02:03:32 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: where did you find this thing. It does a bunch of weird stuff.
 128 2012-11-29 02:04:36 <gmaxwell> E.g. it requires a two way exchange to send someone a message because for some reason I can't comprehend they copied bitcoin's hash of a public key thing... well. they may have been more inclined to do that because it's using 2048 bit RSA instead of ECDH.
 129 2012-11-29 02:05:15 <Diablo-D3> dem diffie helmans
 130 2012-11-29 02:06:34 <gmaxwell> if anyone wants to try sending me a message: BM-2ne7uh1TMsJqGcA8emn9WC3YdKbVeQBqeeU
 131 2012-11-29 02:07:41 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
 132 2012-11-29 02:17:40 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: it was posted on reddit/r/Bitcoin/   No opinion on its quality
 133 2012-11-29 02:17:56 <jgarzik> obviously bitcoin-inspired
 134 2012-11-29 02:18:25 <jgarzik> maybe has proof-of-work to prevent spam too, I remember reading?
 135 2012-11-29 02:18:36 <gmaxwell> yes, it's based on PoW for rate control.
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 150 2012-11-29 03:04:13 <LightRider> So is anyone working on a client for 0x10c? dcpu.com dcpu.ru 0x10co.de
 151 2012-11-29 03:08:17 <gmaxwell> LightRider: that would be a little silly.
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 153 2012-11-29 03:13:03 <LightRider> Silly but awesome.
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 157 2012-11-29 03:20:25 <LightRider> Is anyone working on an assembly version of bitcoin in general? That would be silly and awesome also.
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 160 2012-11-29 03:21:43 <copumpkin> sure, I'll take the regular one and run it through g++ -S
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 162 2012-11-29 03:22:38 <LightRider> I mean a bare metal hand optimized version. Would it be too impractical?
 163 2012-11-29 03:23:37 <Luke-Jr> LightRider: extremely
 164 2012-11-29 03:23:48 <Luke-Jr> also stupid, since compilers are better at optimizing than humans are
 165 2012-11-29 03:24:04 <Luke-Jr> and there isn't any one "assembly" language - there are about 50
 166 2012-11-29 03:24:15 <Luke-Jr> and what works with one DOESN'T work with most of the others
 167 2012-11-29 03:24:34 <Luke-Jr> and even if a human did hand-optimize better than the compiler, it would be specific to a certain CPU
 168 2012-11-29 03:26:01 <LightRider> I suppose. In my early CS courses, I was always told that hand crafted assembly is usually superior.
 169 2012-11-29 03:26:32 <gmaxwell> You were misinformed, at least wrt 'usually'.
 170 2012-11-29 03:27:33 <gmaxwell> Any remotely modern processor is quite hard to schedule for, and the compiler embodies a lot of super ninja skills. It's certantly possible to beat the compiler, — at least for some people some of the time while also benchmarking their work against the compilers (so they couldn't do worse)... but usually? no.
 171 2012-11-29 03:32:00 <Luke-Jr> LightRider: you begin to see how useless universities have become… :P
 172 2012-11-29 03:33:49 <copumpkin> LightRider: back in michael abrash's day, maybe
 173 2012-11-29 03:33:57 <copumpkin> when he wrote that black book of awesome optimization techniques
 174 2012-11-29 03:34:10 <gmaxwell> As an example, idiv on i7 has something like 90 cycles latency.   but when you write b=a/7; the compiler writes a multiply by 1840700269, a shift, and a subtract.. for a net latency of something like 5. (and higher throughput too)
 175 2012-11-29 03:34:21 <copumpkin> now there's too much to keep track of
 176 2012-11-29 03:34:48 <gmaxwell> and sure, there are assembly coders that can optimize like that— (otherwise I wouldn't know to tell you that example), but they aren't common and the amount of code they can optimize that tightly is limited.
 177 2012-11-29 03:34:53 <copumpkin> pretty much the main reason for dropping down to assembly these days is to use things that compilers don't generate very well, like fancy SSE instructions (gcc has intrinsics for them, but they're kinda weird)
 178 2012-11-29 03:35:14 <copumpkin> or to do weird things that your language won't let you do, like screw with the stack or jump around in odd ways
 179 2012-11-29 03:35:31 <Luke-Jr> or implement the libc <.<
 180 2012-11-29 03:35:48 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: setjmp /longjmp ftw. :P
 181 2012-11-29 03:35:53 <copumpkin> :)
 182 2012-11-29 03:36:08 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I wonder if using div(3) hurts more than it helps
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 184 2012-11-29 03:37:12 <LightRider> I remember reading that nVidia was more of a software company than a hardware company because they spent most of their time on driver/compiler optimazation. I guess Intel/AMD went that way also. 90 cycles for idiv seems crazy.
 185 2012-11-29 03:37:36 <gmaxwell> LightRider: go write out a divider with basic logic and you'll see why.
 186 2012-11-29 03:37:55 <copumpkin> LightRider: one of the big things that has changed since people hand-optimized things are crazy superscalar archs
 187 2012-11-29 03:38:06 <gmaxwell> Big ones (E.g. 32/64 bit) ones are really really hard to to make compact!
 188 2012-11-29 03:38:06 <copumpkin> well
 189 2012-11-29 03:38:44 <copumpkin> LightRider: which means that reordering instructions can make things way faster
 190 2012-11-29 03:38:49 <copumpkin> your compiler is doing that behind your back for you
 191 2012-11-29 03:39:50 <LightRider> 0x10c already has about a dozen OS implementations and at least 1 partial python port.
 192 2012-11-29 03:40:05 <gmaxwell> There is a lot of optimization techniques in GCC that no human could have invented.. people used tools like gnu superoptimizer to search for faster isomorphic instruction sequences via brute force and the compiler substitutes them in as it can.
 193 2012-11-29 03:40:14 Eslbaer has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 194 2012-11-29 03:40:47 <LightRider> And people still in this consumer infinite growth economy. Astonishing.
 195 2012-11-29 03:40:59 <copumpkin> LightRider: also worth noting that although things like cache awareness are important for speed, even michael abrash said back in the day that the main thing you should be looking for are algorithmic improvements
 196 2012-11-29 03:41:02 <LightRider> *believe in
 197 2012-11-29 03:41:09 <gmaxwell> it kinda makes me said that notch didn't use MMIX ... at least it would be a semimodern hypothetical architecture. Oh well. :(
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 200 2012-11-29 03:43:07 <LightRider> It wouldn't fit the story. He's limiting himself to 1980's computing power.
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 202 2012-11-29 03:44:27 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: does Bitcoin-Qt use the passphrase directly to derive the encryption key for the wallet?   or does it use the passphrase to derive a key to decrypt the decryption-key for the wallet?
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 204 2012-11-29 03:45:03 <gmaxwell> The latter. There is an encrypted master key. Otherwise changing the password would be quite a bit more burdensome.
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 207 2012-11-29 03:46:06 <etotheipi_> besides the effort required to change the password (re-encrypting all the encrypted data in the wallet) is there anything wrong with the former?
 208 2012-11-29 03:46:30 <LightRider> Well, I do remember having to tell my professors about the latest advancements in processor architecture in class a few times. I should have realized they were behind the times.
 209 2012-11-29 03:48:15 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: well not effort, but also harder to make it safe since it needs to be atomic. Other than that— it's harder to securely erase more data when you change keys, though I admit thats super fringe.
 210 2012-11-29 03:48:45 <gmaxwell> e.g. if you worry your password is compromised you only need to make sure the old encrypted master key is erased vs the whole wallet in the indirect scheme.
 211 2012-11-29 03:49:59 <etotheipi_> yeah... I was thinking I would prefer the individual key encryption to change when the passphrase is changed, but I'm having a tough time finding a scenario where that would actually matter (especially with deterministic wallets)
 212 2012-11-29 03:51:04 <gmaxwell> the indirect scheme still lets you do that if you want.. e.g. you could also rotate the master key at the same time.
 213 2012-11-29 03:51:12 <gmaxwell> though that would defeat the purpose. :P
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 219 2012-11-29 04:38:14 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, sipa, is it necessary to settle for a 4-byte "fingerprint" for HD wallet nodes/addresses?  That makes addresses very likely to be unique, but also likely to result in collisions that I have to build around
 220 2012-11-29 04:38:32 <etotheipi_> is there objection to just using a 16-byte fingerprint and avoid it altogether?
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 225 2012-11-29 04:53:04 <midnightmagic> why does wei dai write assembly for crypto++ if hand-optimization is as useless as you two describe?
 226 2012-11-29 04:53:51 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: maybe he's a closet miner.
 227 2012-11-29 04:54:43 <Luke-Jr> (more seriously, probably SHA256 is too complicated for compilers to optimize well)
 228 2012-11-29 04:54:52 <Luke-Jr> (and other crypto algorithms)
 229 2012-11-29 04:56:48 <midnightmagic> for chips like many of the atmel, or similar, hand-optimizing is still better, since on many of those chips there *are* no weird branch prediction or cache or whatever shortcuts. also, optimization is not always for speed. compilers still don't (and likely never will, because nobody cares about it) optimize for space better than a human can.
 230 2012-11-29 04:58:15 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: and yet an architecture-optimized version (similar to what mrb_ wrote for example) for md5 rules wei dai's crypto++ assembly version for speed...
 231 2012-11-29 05:04:45 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: heh
 232 2012-11-29 05:04:46 <Diablo-D3> dude
 233 2012-11-29 05:04:54 <midnightmagic> yeah..  I'm pretty sure that your guys' assumptions about hand-optimization are only valid if you compare a stereotypical historical hero-coder human-optimizer egotist (which, if what you say is true, would continually fail at what he does) that doesn't really exist.
 234 2012-11-29 05:04:55 <Diablo-D3> some of that assembly isnt for optimization
 235 2012-11-29 05:05:00 <Diablo-D3> some of its to whack the hardware into working
 236 2012-11-29 05:05:12 <Diablo-D3> like, to prevent data leaking and such
 237 2012-11-29 05:05:29 Gladamas has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 238 2012-11-29 05:05:34 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: But he makes mistakes. I found one in his SHA256 routines.
 239 2012-11-29 05:05:38 Gladamas has joined
 240 2012-11-29 05:05:44 <Diablo-D3> ouch
 241 2012-11-29 05:05:46 <midnightmagic> (I helped warner find one, rather.)
 242 2012-11-29 05:05:49 <Diablo-D3> still, point stands
 243 2012-11-29 05:05:58 <Diablo-D3> openssl does it too
 244 2012-11-29 05:06:04 <Diablo-D3> lots of black voodoo magic shit
 245 2012-11-29 05:06:35 <Diablo-D3> shit, I went downstairs to get a soda, I came up with a piece of apple pie
 246 2012-11-29 05:06:37 <midnightmagic> that would be valid, but *everything* is written in it, and there are non-asm alternatives also in the package.
 247 2012-11-29 05:06:52 <Diablo-D3> notice I am still lacking a soda
 248 2012-11-29 05:06:57 <midnightmagic> go get a soda.
 249 2012-11-29 05:07:03 * midnightmagic tugs on a coke zero
 250 2012-11-29 05:07:50 <midnightmagic> ^^^ deliberate reference to people who are reading this log in about..  5 years.  Hello, future human!
 251 2012-11-29 05:08:22 <midnightmagic> greetings from the past, cock-knocker!
 252 2012-11-29 05:08:43 <Diablo-D3> I bet in 5 years my music tastes will still be what they are now
 253 2012-11-29 05:08:59 <midnightmagic> all that dubstep.  bleh, really?
 254 2012-11-29 05:09:41 <jgarzik> not bad at all
 255 2012-11-29 05:09:43 <jgarzik> chain-verf: validating mainnet chainfile /spare/tmp/chaindb/blocks.dat
 256 2012-11-29 05:09:43 <jgarzik> chain-verf: 210041 records validated
 257 2012-11-29 05:09:43 <jgarzik> 142.51user 2.18system 2:27.04elapsed 98PU (0avgtext+0avgdata 1095480maxresident)k
 258 2012-11-29 05:09:54 <jgarzik> that includes an in-memory unspent-TX hash table
 259 2012-11-29 05:09:59 <jgarzik> and verifies spent-ness
 260 2012-11-29 05:10:09 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: no
 261 2012-11-29 05:10:16 <jgarzik> maxed out at 1.0g RSS
 262 2012-11-29 05:10:16 <midnightmagic> ooOOoo  how do I do that too? i wanna try!
 263 2012-11-29 05:11:05 <midnightmagic> also, wtf machine do you have that actually fills in maxres?
 264 2012-11-29 05:11:13 <jgarzik> I could probably shrink my UTXO entries a bit more, be a bit smarter about memory allocation
 265 2012-11-29 05:11:27 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: linux/x86-64/fedora
 266 2012-11-29 05:11:39 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: Is that on a test branch somewhere I can try?
 267 2012-11-29 05:12:11 <midnightmagic> and, especially, does it do a debug trace on bad data?
 268 2012-11-29 05:13:11 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: that is picocoin's chain-verf test, from picocoin.git HEAD
 269 2012-11-29 05:13:21 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: you can trace whatever gdb permits you
 270 2012-11-29 05:13:53 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: I mean, does it identify or highlight broken data that fails verification?
 271 2012-11-29 05:14:14 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: yes.  the test fails, and it tells you where it failed.
 272 2012-11-29 05:14:17 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: like, atm, Im listening to shiro sagisu - spending time in preperation
 273 2012-11-29 05:14:21 da2ce732 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 274 2012-11-29 05:14:34 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: sounds like japanidubstep
 275 2012-11-29 05:15:02 d4de has joined
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 277 2012-11-29 05:15:57 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: nope.
 278 2012-11-29 05:16:25 <Diablo-D3> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ae1ryQJkc8
 279 2012-11-29 05:16:38 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 280 2012-11-29 05:17:37 <midnightmagic> i never did understand what the fuss was about neon genesis..
 281 2012-11-29 05:17:49 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: well
 282 2012-11-29 05:18:00 <Diablo-D3> you have to watch it several times through to really get it
 283 2012-11-29 05:18:24 <midnightmagic> i have an anime translator who explains everything while we're watching, i don't have to do that.
 284 2012-11-29 05:18:35 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: its not that
 285 2012-11-29 05:19:04 <Diablo-D3> basically, anno, the director, made the show as a sort of physchological therapy for himself
 286 2012-11-29 05:19:38 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: the characters are borderline real people.
 287 2012-11-29 05:19:53 freakazoid has joined
 288 2012-11-29 05:20:02 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: and its not even that great of an anime for anime's sake
 289 2012-11-29 05:20:14 <Diablo-D3> its just that repeating viewings you get to pick up on how really fucked up the entire show is
 290 2012-11-29 05:20:33 <Diablo-D3> and the more you dig into it, the more fucked up it gets
 291 2012-11-29 05:20:46 <midnightmagic> lol what does that even mean ?
 292 2012-11-29 05:20:55 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: its layers and layers and layers of bullshit
 293 2012-11-29 05:21:28 <midnightmagic> scratch that. let's go to another channel and maybe you can just give me one, narrow, specific example?
 294 2012-11-29 05:21:34 <Diablo-D3> bullshit of society, bullshit of interpersonal relationships, bullshit of mental illness
 295 2012-11-29 05:21:36 <midnightmagic> lol #bitcoin-assets? :)
 296 2012-11-29 05:21:58 <Diablo-D3> meh
 297 2012-11-29 05:22:08 * Diablo-D3 continues in #assets
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 299 2012-11-29 05:23:28 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: sipa: when you guys are ready to build 0.7.2rc2 let me know and I'll tag/push it..,
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 305 2012-11-29 05:36:22 <jgarzik> old: 142.51user 2.18system 2:27.04elapsed 98PU (0avgtext+0avgdata 1095480maxresident)k
 306 2012-11-29 05:36:34 <jgarzik> new: 138.94user 2.10system 2:23.24elapsed 98PU (0avgtext+0avgdata 797648maxresident)k
 307 2012-11-29 05:36:39 <jgarzik> much better
 308 2012-11-29 05:36:48 <jgarzik> memory usage-wise
 309 2012-11-29 05:37:09 <jgarzik> that's full mainnet in memory UTXO set
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 320 2012-11-29 06:03:04 <jgarzik> what is current testnet3 height, please?
 321 2012-11-29 06:03:19 <jgarzik> 39057?
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 331 2012-11-29 06:38:02 <synthetik> ok guys i was over in #bitcoin but not much help there i really need help as its a matter of quite a few thousand
 332 2012-11-29 06:38:11 <synthetik> i lost control of one of my accounts
 333 2012-11-29 06:38:37 <synthetik> in order to regain control they asked for my deposit addresses into my exchange (cavirtex)
 334 2012-11-29 06:38:54 <synthetik> i need to look up certain amounts via date and time in the block chain
 335 2012-11-29 06:38:59 <synthetik> any suggestions how ?
 336 2012-11-29 06:40:35 <maaku> blockchain.info
 337 2012-11-29 06:41:27 <maaku> but are you saying thats a security question?
 338 2012-11-29 06:41:51 <maaku> because that'd be pretty dumb, blockchain data being public
 339 2012-11-29 06:43:18 <Cusipzzz> so you have amount, date, and time of txn and need the addresses??
 340 2012-11-29 06:43:18 <jgarzik> picocoin officially (a) validates mainnet and testnet3 block chains, except for script validation, and
 341 2012-11-29 06:43:26 <jgarzik> (b) passes ref client script validation tests
 342 2012-11-29 06:43:52 <jgarzik> takes < 3 minutes to check mainnet chain
 343 2012-11-29 06:43:58 <jgarzik> excl. script
 344 2012-11-29 06:44:19 <synthetik> Cusipzzz: yes
 345 2012-11-29 06:44:41 <synthetik> I have date time and amount
 346 2012-11-29 06:44:45 <Cusipzzz> how accurate are the times? do you have block #s?
 347 2012-11-29 06:44:48 <synthetik> i need deposit address
 348 2012-11-29 06:46:12 <synthetik> for instance last deposit was Nov. 8, 2012, 8:50 p.m. 	Deposit 	10.11
 349 2012-11-29 06:46:36 <synthetik> no i don't have block numbers sorry
 350 2012-11-29 06:47:18 <synthetik> but i would say the time is fairly accurate
 351 2012-11-29 06:48:11 <Cusipzzz> is that UTC time? eastern?
 352 2012-11-29 06:49:21 <synthetik> i just made a withdrawl 15 min ago and it said Nov. 28, 2012, 11:15 p.m
 353 2012-11-29 06:49:30 <synthetik> so that would be GMT -8
 354 2012-11-29 06:49:34 <synthetik> iirc
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 357 2012-11-29 06:50:44 <andrew12-> jgarzik: wow.
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 361 2012-11-29 06:53:08 <synthetik> Cusipzzz: Ideas ?
 362 2012-11-29 06:53:17 <Cusipzzz> synthetik: closest I found was b977e507e479c46c98ce369d2a9cd909e29213dded546a953e7ccd9520f8c7a1 - could be 8 hrs to gmt, minus 6 blocks for confirmations
 363 2012-11-29 06:53:52 <Cusipzzz> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/b977e507e479c46c98ce369d2a9cd909e29213dded546a953e7ccd9520f8c7a1
 364 2012-11-29 06:55:20 <synthetik> how did you get to that point though
 365 2012-11-29 06:55:56 <Cusipzzz> everythng is public...all nodes have that information?
 366 2012-11-29 06:56:42 <synthetik> ok but that block was nov 9th
 367 2012-11-29 06:56:56 <synthetik> i need nov 8th
 368 2012-11-29 06:57:05 <Cusipzzz> yes, 8pm nov 8 = nov 9 gmt
 369 2012-11-29 06:57:54 <synthetik> is it all in UTC ?
 370 2012-11-29 06:58:13 RazielXYZ has joined
 371 2012-11-29 06:58:53 <Diablo-D3> no, its in ptc.
 372 2012-11-29 06:59:04 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 373 2012-11-29 06:59:12 <Diablo-D3> the penis time zone.... named for my penis, which is so large, it takes up an entire time zone.
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 375 2012-11-29 07:00:17 <synthetik> ok i know that the time given is based of of alberta canada's time
 376 2012-11-29 07:00:26 <synthetik> which is not GMT
 377 2012-11-29 07:00:29 <synthetik> i don't think
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 381 2012-11-29 07:02:58 <synthetik> so currently it would be Thu, 29 Nov 2012 06:50:07 GMT
 382 2012-11-29 07:04:10 <Cusipzzz> yes. so convert that nov 8 time to gmt, find the corresponding block, account for how many confirmations they wait before showing the deposit, and you should have it
 383 2012-11-29 07:04:16 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
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 385 2012-11-29 07:06:21 <synthetik> so how did you zero in on that date though
 386 2012-11-29 07:06:28 <synthetik> or rather that block vs that date
 387 2012-11-29 07:06:56 <Cusipzzz> that block is close to the time conversion and has a txn with the 10.11btc amount
 388 2012-11-29 07:07:36 <synthetik> sure but how did you look that block up via the date or the amount ?
 389 2012-11-29 07:08:24 <Cusipzzz> is has to be block 2071xx based on the date and time
 390 2012-11-29 07:09:08 <synthetik> sure ok i get that but how did you come that conclusion like say i wanted to look up augest 3rd how would i know what block range ?
 391 2012-11-29 07:09:47 <Cusipzzz> if you run a nde you have all of this information, or you can use a site like blockexplorer or blockcahin info
 392 2012-11-29 07:09:50 <Cusipzzz> node
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 395 2012-11-29 07:14:37 <synthetik> so would it be safe to say then this is probably the transaction http://blockexplorer.com/address/19SMy7srGqvVbX1WqWbvfKAefCAiPjseRL
 396 2012-11-29 07:14:41 unknown45682 has joined
 397 2012-11-29 07:16:39 <Cusipzzz> possibly. i didn't do an exhaustive search, but that was the closest I found
 398 2012-11-29 07:19:13 <Cusipzzz> if it's really worth thousands to you, i suggest paying someone to research all the date/times/amounts
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 416 2012-11-29 07:53:24 <midnightmagic> sipa: if we don't reorg on new branches, do we treat our own submitted solutions differently? that is, for mining purposes, do we still reorg on branches with same-work sums if the block is our own, so that future mining commands build on our own block rather than someone else's?
 417 2012-11-29 07:53:48 <midnightmagic> sipa: re: pull request #1980
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 469 2012-11-29 09:56:30 <joepie91> very interesting concept that may appeal to people here: http://falkvinge.net/2012/11/20/payright-a-copyrightpatent-reform-proposal-to-make-piracy-obsolete/
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 478 2012-11-29 10:19:26 <sipa> midnightmagic: our own blocks are treated the same as everyone else
 479 2012-11-29 10:21:05 <epscy> is the 0.8 branch going to be more performant than 0.7
 480 2012-11-29 10:22:31 <sipa> etotheipi_: i didn't want to waste too much data on it; if there are multiple matches, try them all on import
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 482 2012-11-29 10:23:19 <epscy> i seem to have issues running bitcoind on openvz
 483 2012-11-29 10:23:20 <t7> if you guys where building a service using bitcoin, would you use a leightweight client or a full verifying node ?
 484 2012-11-29 10:23:48 <epscy> t7: i think that depends on what you are doing
 485 2012-11-29 10:25:42 <sipa> epscy: a lot
 486 2012-11-29 10:26:03 Eslbaer has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 487 2012-11-29 10:28:54 <t7> how many transactions have ever used a custom script ?
 488 2012-11-29 10:29:48 <abrkn> i see them some times
 489 2012-11-29 10:30:07 <epscy> sipa: i seem to get std::bad_alloc messages alot
 490 2012-11-29 10:30:15 <epscy> and then have to restart
 491 2012-11-29 10:30:28 <epscy> so is the memory usage of 0.8 likely to be less?
 492 2012-11-29 10:31:41 <t7> does bitcoind keep a database of all unspent outputs or does it search for them in the blockchain when it needs them?
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 496 2012-11-29 10:38:15 <sipa> t7: up to 0.7 an index of txid in the blockchain, since 0.8 a db of utxo
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 498 2012-11-29 10:38:36 <sipa> epscy: bad_alloc? how do you do that?
 499 2012-11-29 10:38:49 <epscy> run out of memory i assume
 500 2012-11-29 10:39:08 <epscy> could just be this VPS is dodgy though too
 501 2012-11-29 10:39:31 <sipa> 0.8 should use a little less memory
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 504 2012-11-29 10:41:49 <t7> sipa have you considered using a postgres or something to store all this?
 505 2012-11-29 10:42:08 <t7> im not sure how that would affect performance and/or memory usage
 506 2012-11-29 10:42:27 <t7> might get some nice things for free though
 507 2012-11-29 10:42:57 <epscy> postgres would be a pretty hefty dependancy
 508 2012-11-29 10:43:21 <t7> well its a pretty hefty program at the moment
 509 2012-11-29 10:43:28 <epscy> and typically a bitcoin client only has one user
 510 2012-11-29 10:44:03 <epscy> so it's scaling problems are different from a traditional sql db
 511 2012-11-29 10:44:08 <t7> i guess most users are going to move to lightweight clients in the future
 512 2012-11-29 10:44:18 <epscy> i don't think bitcoin is that hefty
 513 2012-11-29 10:44:45 <epscy> i'm guessing it's kloc is less than postgres for example
 514 2012-11-29 10:45:22 <t7> yeah i meant runtime cost rather than LOC
 515 2012-11-29 10:45:33 <t7> LOC isnt so much
 516 2012-11-29 10:45:56 <epscy> well it's runtime cost is due to disk space and cpu usage
 517 2012-11-29 10:46:09 <epscy> but once you are synced it shouldn't be that bad
 518 2012-11-29 10:46:25 <sipa> t7: why postgres?
 519 2012-11-29 10:47:12 <sipa> libbitcoin uses sqlite iirc
 520 2012-11-29 10:47:19 <sipa> abe uses an sql b
 521 2012-11-29 10:47:23 <sipa> db
 522 2012-11-29 10:47:35 <sipa> bitsofproof too
 523 2012-11-29 10:47:53 <epscy> did you guys look at tokyo cabinet
 524 2012-11-29 10:47:57 <sipa> bitcoind used bdb, and is switching to leveldb
 525 2012-11-29 10:48:10 <epscy> or kyoto cabinet, whichever makes more sense
 526 2012-11-29 10:48:30 <sipa> epscy: yes, didn't seem to have advantages over leveldb
 527 2012-11-29 10:48:36 <t7> i figured postgres will be clever with caching and stuff automatically
 528 2012-11-29 10:49:06 <sipa> t7: sure, but so is leveldb
 529 2012-11-29 10:49:13 <wumpus> the part that uses so much memory is not the databse
 530 2012-11-29 10:50:19 <epscy> can you run postgres as an embedded database like sqlite?
 531 2012-11-29 10:50:34 <epscy> does postgres run on windows?
 532 2012-11-29 10:50:34 <wumpus> no
 533 2012-11-29 10:50:36 <wumpus> yes
 534 2012-11-29 10:50:49 <epscy> right
 535 2012-11-29 10:51:03 Icoin has joined
 536 2012-11-29 10:51:04 <epscy> so you would be adding a postgres server as a dependency
 537 2012-11-29 10:51:11 <wumpus> there was a project to run mysql as an embedded database but it was abandoned long time ago.. there's a limit to the amouint of complexity that is useful for an embedded database
 538 2012-11-29 10:51:21 <epscy> which would probably would ok for systems with a decent package manager
 539 2012-11-29 10:51:24 <wumpus> sqlite is neatly at that limit IMO
 540 2012-11-29 10:51:39 <epscy> sqlite is kinda annoying
 541 2012-11-29 10:51:45 <epscy> with the locking
 542 2012-11-29 10:51:46 <wumpus> annoying?!
 543 2012-11-29 10:52:08 <epscy> i always try to put sqlite databases on a ramdisk if i can
 544 2012-11-29 10:52:12 <wumpus> what are you trying to use it for? I'm not saying it is a good fit for bitcoin or 'large dumb data' storage 
 545 2012-11-29 10:52:27 <epscy> simple way to minimise concurrency issues
 546 2012-11-29 10:52:58 <epscy> wumpus: i tried to use it for storing details of mp3s
 547 2012-11-29 10:53:21 <wumpus> yes it was not really designed for concurrent use, they recommend using a single thread that does that database access 
 548 2012-11-29 10:53:36 <epscy> indeed
 549 2012-11-29 10:53:36 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 550 2012-11-29 10:53:53 <wumpus> should be fine for that
 551 2012-11-29 10:54:19 <epscy> well if you are adding a lot of stuff at the same time, you can't read
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 555 2012-11-29 11:03:32 <wumpus> there's also firebird, also an open source sql embeddedable database but a step up from sqlite (both in capabilities and, size probably, I haven't used it)
 556 2012-11-29 11:04:32 <epscy> oh interesting
 557 2012-11-29 11:04:46 <epscy> for some reason i thought firebird was commericial
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 561 2012-11-29 11:11:01 <abrkn> i think ive messed up my wallet with using move
 562 2012-11-29 11:11:37 <abrkn> https://gist.github.com/4168198
 563 2012-11-29 11:11:58 <abrkn> but if i add up the send and receive's, i should have a balance of 6.4115
 564 2012-11-29 11:12:49 <abrkn> anyway to clean up this mess? i pretty much just want to stop using accounts/labels/move
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 569 2012-11-29 11:17:14 <sipa> abrkn: that is indeed very messed up; but if you want to stop using accounts, there is no problem really
 570 2012-11-29 11:17:24 <abrkn> sipa: just not sure how to clean it up?
 571 2012-11-29 11:17:40 <sipa> meh, don't
 572 2012-11-29 11:17:53 <abrkn> atm i dont understand how much is in the wallet, cant send it either
 573 2012-11-29 11:18:14 <sipa> getbalance will tell you how much is in the wallet
 574 2012-11-29 11:18:21 <abrkn> hmm, it says zero
 575 2012-11-29 11:18:26 <sipa> then you have 0 :)
 576 2012-11-29 11:18:29 <abrkn> dafuq...
 577 2012-11-29 11:18:44 <abrkn> going through my transactions says otherwise
 578 2012-11-29 11:19:33 <abrkn> i did have issues when i upgraded from 0.6 etc, but i backed up my wallet carefully
 579 2012-11-29 11:20:23 <sipa> any unconfirmed incoming transactions, or immature mining outputs?
 580 2012-11-29 11:20:41 <abrkn> checking
 581 2012-11-29 11:22:11 jdnavarro has joined
 582 2012-11-29 11:22:48 <abrkn> well, the addresses are: 1BQEwyZxBgS5MCrpF2Q5Lev5vYzDYhKuqC, 1Q6A5YyxPK34qoKyS6qoDrLfyqV2eLaXQz, 1MUEKPtnGuqfdhEgnBdYQimttj7q8xqkQ7, 1EL7TVW8wGkTkh52s63ta6sinW5vbF9jA8"
 583 2012-11-29 11:23:09 <abrkn> found by listaccounts and then getaddressesbyaccount for each
 584 2012-11-29 11:24:32 <abrkn> only one i see any activity on is https://blockchain.info/address/1MUEKPtnGuqfdhEgnBdYQimttj7q8xqkQ7
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 587 2012-11-29 11:40:06 <abrkn> ok, now i tried to dump priv key, delete wallet.dat, import priv key, still getbalance zero wtf
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 599 2012-11-29 12:27:39 <grondilu> Check this out guys:  http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Bitcoin/address_validation#C
 600 2012-11-29 12:28:07 <grondilu> Somehow the author managed to convert a base58 string into bytes without using big integers
 601 2012-11-29 12:28:23 <grondilu> Did you know it was possible?
 602 2012-11-29 12:28:26 <sipa> sure
 603 2012-11-29 12:28:42 <grondilu> Well, I had no clue
 604 2012-11-29 12:29:29 <grondilu> I still don't get how it works, actually
 605 2012-11-29 12:31:08 <sipa> he is using the output buffer as a big integer essentially
 606 2012-11-29 12:32:49 pusle has joined
 607 2012-11-29 12:34:25 <wumpus> yes he just uses a hand-rolled fixed-size bigint implementation specially for this purpose
 608 2012-11-29 12:36:24 <grondilu> damn I'm embarassed now.  I still don't quite understand.  But I'll figure it out eventually.
 609 2012-11-29 12:38:02 <sipa> grondilu: in each run of the inner loop he does a (x -> 58*x+n) on the integer represented by the output buffer
 610 2012-11-29 12:38:24 <sipa> wumpus: which may actually be faster than what we do...
 611 2012-11-29 12:40:07 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 612 2012-11-29 12:40:40 <abrkn> back, any ideas on how to fix my wallet issues? https://blockchain.info/address/1MUEKPtnGuqfdhEgnBdYQimttj7q8xqkQ7 is my address
 613 2012-11-29 12:40:42 <wumpus> probably
 614 2012-11-29 12:40:48 <abrkn> but when i do importprivkey i getn othing
 615 2012-11-29 12:40:52 <abrkn> gettbalance still zero
 616 2012-11-29 12:41:46 <wumpus> there's a pull request that speeds up the base58 encoding/decoding, but it didn't get very much interest because we're not bound by its performance anywhere
 617 2012-11-29 12:42:29 <sipa> wumpus: this code is however only useful if you know the output size
 618 2012-11-29 12:42:39 <sipa> which we do, actually
 619 2012-11-29 12:43:37 <wumpus> indeed, if you know the input size you know the (upper bound to the) output size
 620 2012-11-29 12:43:38 <grondilu> it's a nice trick anyway
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 624 2012-11-29 13:03:59 <t7> can anyone point me to docs explaining how light clients work? (multibit)
 625 2012-11-29 13:05:18 <jeremias> it is explained in the original satoshi paper
 626 2012-11-29 13:05:28 <jeremias> they keep the lightweight version of the block chain
 627 2012-11-29 13:05:30 <jeremias> headers only
 628 2012-11-29 13:05:36 <jeremias> but there are other models as well
 629 2012-11-29 13:05:45 <jeremias> electrum doesn't keep block chain at all
 630 2012-11-29 13:06:22 <jeremias> but is still pretty trustable, private keys are not stored on the server
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 636 2012-11-29 13:17:31 <AlbusTalpa> Hey there. Is it normal that if a transaction tx get's included in block Bn, calling "bitcoind listsinceblock Bn" doesn't show the transaction tx. However, calling "bitcoind listsinceblock Bn-1" does include the transaction tx
 637 2012-11-29 13:18:10 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
 638 2012-11-29 13:19:25 <abrkn> sipa: i solved my wallet problem. *double facepalm*  bitcoind getblockcount ---- 194888
 639 2012-11-29 13:19:32 <freewil> AlbusTalpa, yes
 640 2012-11-29 13:19:52 <freewil> listsinceblock only shows transactions after that block
 641 2012-11-29 13:20:03 <AlbusTalpa> ok thanks
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 646 2012-11-29 13:41:33 <molec> hmm. bitcoin-qt 0.7.1: swapped in a wallet.dat backup and did "bitcoin-qt -rescan". It rescans, then shows all the transactions but balance BTC 0.0. any ideas?
 647 2012-11-29 13:44:16 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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 649 2012-11-29 13:52:47 <sipa> wumpus: i mean when decoding an address, you know the output is 20 bytes eg
 650 2012-11-29 13:52:56 ThomasV has joined
 651 2012-11-29 13:53:33 <wumpus> yep
 652 2012-11-29 13:53:49 <sipa> and an upper bound is also easily calculatable: same as the input size
 653 2012-11-29 13:53:55 <sipa> (in case it's all zeroes)
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 661 2012-11-29 14:00:15 <t7> where are the openssl docs, the website seems incomplete
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 670 2012-11-29 14:18:37 <NewLiberty> If I were to send bitcoins using the regular client, but I wasn't connected to directly or indirectly to any mining nodes, and then decided that I didn't want to send those bitcoins, from a technical perspective, how would I stop my Bitcoin-QT client from trying to send that transaction?
 671 2012-11-29 14:19:46 <NewLiberty> Any related information about where sent bitcoins are stored after they're sent but before the transaction is confirmed or how that process works would be helpful.
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 674 2012-11-29 14:22:48 <kjj> they are in the wallet
 675 2012-11-29 14:24:50 <NewLiberty> I know I'm not a regular face around here, but for those of you that don't know me, I ran the first exchange, made the first financial transaction with Bitcoins and PayPal, and the first person to try to actively popularize Bitcoin.
 676 2012-11-29 14:26:33 <NewLiberty> Thanks kjj. I guess I'll look into the wallet file format.
 677 2012-11-29 14:30:36 <kjj> it is a BDB file.  when you send a transaction, it gets recorded in there and sent to the network
 678 2012-11-29 14:30:59 <kjj> from time to time, it will try to resend any unconfirmed entries in that database
 679 2012-11-29 14:33:00 <NewLiberty> I've just found some Python code for accessing it, which helps.
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 683 2012-11-29 14:40:15 <NewLiberty> So what would happen bitcoins were sent and confirmed, but then the block chain was deleted and re-downloaded? While the block chain is catching back up, would the client try to resend those transactions if the blockchain had changed and they were no longer confirmed?
 684 2012-11-29 14:44:57 <helo> i think it would send them again
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 687 2012-11-29 14:46:45 <helo> both before it has the block where they were confirmed (only to be ignored by peers with the tx in a block), and if the confirming block was orphaned (so they could be included in a subsequent block)
 688 2012-11-29 14:49:29 NewLiberty has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 689 2012-11-29 14:51:00 <Luke-Jr> wasn't MtGox the first exchange?
 690 2012-11-29 14:53:51 <stamit> the first and the last!
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 693 2012-11-29 15:00:45 <kjj> the node can know that it is catching up.  I don't know without looking at the code whether or not it attempts to retransmit while it is behind
 694 2012-11-29 15:01:19 NewLiberty has joined
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 696 2012-11-29 15:08:12 <sipa> Luke-Jr: there was one "before our time"
 697 2012-11-29 15:08:34 <sipa> NewLiberty: i believe it rebroadcasts during IBD yes
 698 2012-11-29 15:09:03 <NewLiberty> What is IDB?
 699 2012-11-29 15:09:58 <sipa> initial block download
 700 2012-11-29 15:10:17 <sipa> the state the client is in when it knows it hasn't caught up
 701 2012-11-29 15:11:44 <NewLiberty> Ok, so I think first thing I would need is a switch to enable or disable that functionality.
 702 2012-11-29 15:13:44 <sipa> i think it's generally a good idea to disable that
 703 2012-11-29 15:15:08 <NewLiberty> Well after the import has completed, I don't want to make the user wait to catch up to send any new transactions.
 704 2012-11-29 15:16:03 <NewLiberty> Speaking of which, confirming blocks in my x86 Linux VM is dog slow. It takes like 5-10 minutes per block.
 705 2012-11-29 15:16:32 <NewLiberty> If it wasn't so slow, that wouldn't be an issue.
 706 2012-11-29 15:16:50 <kjj> seriously?
 707 2012-11-29 15:17:13 <sipa> NewLiberty: it shouldn't be more than a second
 708 2012-11-29 15:17:18 <helo> sounds like it is not doing hardware virt
 709 2012-11-29 15:17:42 <sipa> it can be, if IO is virtualized
 710 2012-11-29 15:17:57 <sipa> NewLiberty: 0.8 should be a lot faster in that situation
 711 2012-11-29 15:18:18 <kjj> I'm running two full nodes on an 11 year old Athlon XP and it takes me at most a couple of seconds
 712 2012-11-29 15:18:29 <NewLiberty> It should be hardware virtualized. I'm on a dual core 64-bit machine running VirtualBox on a Linux Host.
 713 2012-11-29 15:18:45 <sipa> the CPU is likely not the problem
 714 2012-11-29 15:19:13 <NewLiberty> Yeah, that what I would expect. During the halving party yesterday there was a guy on XP that was having the same problem.
 715 2012-11-29 15:19:56 <NewLiberty> Anyway, I'm not too concerned about it at the moment. Just thought I'd mention it. Hopefully 0.8 will resolve it.
 716 2012-11-29 15:19:58 <sipa> NewLiberty: feel free to try git head to see if it's faster, but don't use it in production yet
 717 2012-11-29 15:34:26 silur has joined
 718 2012-11-29 15:34:29 <silur> Hello
 719 2012-11-29 15:34:43 <silur> Q: What the best way to withdraw cash (CAD -> to bank) from MtGox if you're Canadian (in terms of minimizing fees)?
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 721 2012-11-29 15:35:20 <helo> ripple to be implemented using a blockchain: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/rippleusers/IVin3Qwrp7k
 722 2012-11-29 15:35:50 <helo> "with a novel miner-less consensus mechanism that allows proof of stake
 723 2012-11-29 15:36:00 <helo> errr messed that paste up...
 724 2012-11-29 15:36:35 <helo> "with a novel miner-less consensus mechanism that allows transactions to be confirmed nearly instantaneously." <--- i guess this is not proof of stake...
 725 2012-11-29 15:38:36 <sipa> helo: they fail to mention one name; iirc justmoon is working for them now :)
 726 2012-11-29 15:38:46 TD has joined
 727 2012-11-29 15:38:49 <Eliel> helo: considering it's Ripple, even Proof of Stake would make no sense.
 728 2012-11-29 15:39:39 <Eliel> proof of work would in some ways though.
 729 2012-11-29 15:40:03 <Eliel> I expect it probably makes use of the trust-network that Ripple requires to operate anyway.
 730 2012-11-29 15:41:37 <helo> yeah... i don't know anything about ripple
 731 2012-11-29 15:44:16 <NewLiberty> Here's a link to my just-now-posted announcement of an alternative block chain. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128370.0
 732 2012-11-29 15:44:57 <Eliel> quite different from Bitcoin. First of all, it can't really create it's own unit of exchange as it's a debt based system. Instead it'll use whatever units the users want to use.
 733 2012-11-29 15:45:16 <Eliel> although, well, it's certainly possible to implement without support for multiple currencies.
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 739 2012-11-29 16:10:12 <maaku> helo: it's proof of activity, maybe
 740 2012-11-29 16:10:35 <maaku> we won't know until they post the protocol :\
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 753 2012-11-29 16:37:30 <etotheipi_> sipa: I think there's plenty of cases where you can try multiple available options for colliding fingerprints but (1) It's a lot of extra complexity to handle such a corner case (2) I'm concerned that there will be use cases that will have complete roadblocks in them, because you don't have unique IDs... perhaps some system where you're trying to link an address to a grandparent and you don't know the path from grandparent to ch
 754 2012-11-29 16:37:30 <etotheipi_> ild
 755 2012-11-29 16:38:31 <etotheipi_> sipa: I don't have any good examples of use cases where it would really hinder you, but it wouldn't surprise me if they cropped up
 756 2012-11-29 16:38:45 <etotheipi_> but I recognize 4 bytes is preferable, and with our current foresight, it's not a bad decision
 757 2012-11-29 16:42:05 <TD> good afternoon
 758 2012-11-29 16:47:11 <sipa> etotheipi_: sure you have a unique id: the hash160 of the pubkey
 759 2012-11-29 16:47:42 <sipa> etotheipi_: that doesn't mean you need the full id of the parent in each serialized chain
 760 2012-11-29 16:47:52 <etotheipi_> sipa: duh
 761 2012-11-29 16:47:55 <sipa> it's more of a checksum
 762 2012-11-29 16:48:02 <etotheipi_> if I want a unique ID, I just use the hash160
 763 2012-11-29 16:48:15 <etotheipi_> okay, I'm happy
 764 2012-11-29 16:48:17 <etotheipi_> :)
 765 2012-11-29 16:49:42 <sipa> etotheipi_: also, what do you think about cascasius' proposal to use 4 version bytes to make them more visually appealing?
 766 2012-11-29 16:49:52 <etotheipi_> then, I will probably store fingerprints, but link things together with the hash160 values instead... I don't care about wasting an extra 16 bytes per address -- wallet files are already small, and the reduced complexity is worth it to me
 767 2012-11-29 16:49:55 <sipa> etotheipi_: i consider it low priority, but i like it
 768 2012-11-29 16:50:14 <sipa> etotheipi_: internally i will defintely use 20-byte fingerprints
 769 2012-11-29 16:50:29 <etotheipi_> sipa: I kind of like the prefixes
 770 2012-11-29 16:51:11 <sipa> that's a yes?
 771 2012-11-29 16:51:14 <etotheipi_> it's a shame we can't pick a prefix that will automatically be converted to "xprv" and "xpub" when converted to Base58 :)
 772 2012-11-29 16:51:39 <sipa> ?
 773 2012-11-29 16:51:41 <etotheipi_> unless we put it at the end
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 775 2012-11-29 16:51:45 <sipa> ??
 776 2012-11-29 16:53:01 <etotheipi_> he suggested to add 4 byte prefix to the pub or priv key for consistency, and those 4 bytes would be ASCII for xpub or xprv, right?
 777 2012-11-29 16:53:44 <sipa> no
 778 2012-11-29 16:53:49 <etotheipi_> maybe I should go re-read what he said
 779 2012-11-29 16:54:25 <sipa> just 4 bytes prefixed to the serialized format, which result in a base58 form starting with xprv or xpub
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 781 2012-11-29 16:54:47 <etotheipi_> how do you know it's going to come out as xprv or xpub
 782 2012-11-29 16:54:48 <etotheipi_> ?
 783 2012-11-29 16:55:06 <sipa> math?
 784 2012-11-29 16:55:12 <etotheipi_> lol
 785 2012-11-29 16:55:57 <etotheipi_> what I'm saying is, you need an exact multiple of 58 bits on the key in order to guarantee the top 4 base58 chars are consistent, otherwise bits from the ke yget bundled into the prefix
 786 2012-11-29 16:56:01 <etotheipi_> or am I missing something?
 787 2012-11-29 16:56:41 <sipa> you know the range of numbers (in base 256) that are possible when you know length and prefix
 788 2012-11-29 16:57:10 <sipa> if both edges of that range map to a base58 form you want, everything in between will too
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 790 2012-11-29 16:57:30 <etotheipi_> oooh,  I see
 791 2012-11-29 16:57:46 <sipa> actually, i think 3 bytes should be enough for 4 base58 chars
 792 2012-11-29 16:57:47 <etotheipi_> I had just implicitly assumed that wasn't reasonable
 793 2012-11-29 16:57:54 <etotheipi_> *feasible
 794 2012-11-29 16:57:56 <etotheipi_> I don't know why
 795 2012-11-29 16:58:13 <etotheipi_> okay, so yeah, I really like it
 796 2012-11-29 16:58:40 <etotheipi_> sorry, sometimes my brain starts walking down a particular [sometimes irrational] path and can't find its way back :)
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 799 2012-11-29 17:00:45 <jm9000> Has there been any discussion on creating a visual finger print representation of a bitcoin address? Similar to a visual SSH fingerprint, or identicons. The point of this would be to make it easy to distinguish at a glance if it has been typed in wrong or tampered with. Probably not so useful in the current implementation, but it would become more useful if mobile bitcoin devices became
 800 2012-11-29 17:00:45 <jm9000> popular. I'm sure this isn't a new idea. I'm just interested in if there was any serious discussion about implementing it in the client down the line, or outright rejection of the notion.
 801 2012-11-29 17:00:53 <etotheipi_> sipa: so what's the downside?  besides slightly-longer encodings of public and private keys which I am already okay with?
 802 2012-11-29 17:01:29 <sipa> jm9000: i think any solution where humans have to verify raw addresses is flawed
 803 2012-11-29 17:01:31 swulf-- has joined
 804 2012-11-29 17:01:53 <t7> any old image hash will work on a btc addres
 805 2012-11-29 17:01:54 <sipa> jm9000: right now, nothih better exists, but hopefully that will change soon with a payment protocol
 806 2012-11-29 17:02:11 <sipa> etotheipi_: indeed
 807 2012-11-29 17:03:26 <sipa> i feel like a hypocrit... on one hand i'm advocating changing a format to make it look better, and on the other i'm saying humans shouldn't see them anyway :)
 808 2012-11-29 17:03:44 <swulf--> I know this is bitcoin-related development, but is it an appropriate place to talk about non-core bitcoind dev?  I've put up a new site and I'd love to get a few people to try it and give feedback
 809 2012-11-29 17:03:56 <swulf--> s/this/this place
 810 2012-11-29 17:04:13 <etotheipi_> sipa: I was *just* about to make a comment about that :)
 811 2012-11-29 17:04:52 <sipa> etotheipi_: but i guess we're targetting power users here anyway... and exchanging chains won't be done in a payment protocol
 812 2012-11-29 17:06:17 <etotheipi_> sipa: that's essentially what Armory's niche is.... those Bitcoin DIY'ers who want full control over their coins (though the payment protocol could be part of that if they get themselves a CA-signed cert)
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 814 2012-11-29 17:07:19 <sipa> you could always exchange payment-protocol-files by hand without signing, imho
 815 2012-11-29 17:07:20 <TD> swulf--: i guess if it's bitcoin and dev related, it's appropriate for #bitcoin-dev
 816 2012-11-29 17:07:28 <TD> swulf--: we discuss non-satoshi codebases all the time
 817 2012-11-29 17:07:47 <swulf--> well, would something like satoshidice.com be a topic suited for this chan?
 818 2012-11-29 17:08:30 <etotheipi_> swulf--: do first, ask for forgiveness later... it's a lot smoother :)  If you sound off-topic, someone will suggest a better channel for you
 819 2012-11-29 17:08:38 <TD> sure
 820 2012-11-29 17:09:14 <swulf--> ok: I've been working on a gambling/gaming bitcoin site over the past week and I'm looking for a few brave souls willing to spend a few mins to test and give feedback:)
 821 2012-11-29 17:10:12 <sipa> imho that's better on #bitcoin, but if you're looking how to integrate with the bitcoin system, maybe here
 822 2012-11-29 17:11:19 <swulf--> at this point, all the tech things are figured out, so you're probably right its a more suitable topic for #bitcoin.  thanks:)
 823 2012-11-29 17:17:09 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: satoshidice is considered a DDoS attack against Bitcoin
 824 2012-11-29 17:17:17 <swulf--> by some, sure
 825 2012-11-29 17:17:36 <TD> hah
 826 2012-11-29 17:17:45 <TD> it's a reminder that we need to scale, that's all
 827 2012-11-29 17:17:57 <zeiris> So what percentage of the blockchain is satoshidice right now?
 828 2012-11-29 17:17:58 <BlueMatt> if you are gonna do a sd-like site, there are ways that are "better" for the network that you should try to ensure you implement
 829 2012-11-29 17:17:59 <Luke-Jr> TD: nobody could handle the load SatoshiDice demands
 830 2012-11-29 17:18:00 <swulf--> and the people playing are willingly paying tx fees, so..
 831 2012-11-29 17:18:18 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: it doesn't work like that
 832 2012-11-29 17:18:19 <zeiris> And how long until the entire bitcoin network collapses under the weight of the block chain, as users can't practically keep the thing around?
 833 2012-11-29 17:18:21 <swulf--> blue: my site isn't based on transactions, but it is gambling
 834 2012-11-29 17:18:44 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: those fees don't cover the expenses, they're only there to deter DoS attacks; SatoshiDice is using gamblers' addictions to bypass that DoS-deterrant
 835 2012-11-29 17:18:45 <BlueMatt> swulf--: ok, I hadnt been reading, just thought Id make sure to point it out
 836 2012-11-29 17:19:06 <swulf--> Right. SatoshiDice is exploiting gamblers.
 837 2012-11-29 17:19:09 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 838 2012-11-29 17:19:22 <Luke-Jr> and Bitcoin
 839 2012-11-29 17:19:25 <TD> nobody?
 840 2012-11-29 17:19:32 <TD> sd is doing like 1 tx per 2 seconds or something like that
 841 2012-11-29 17:20:04 <TD> sipa: what's the next step for ultraprune? database conversion?
 842 2012-11-29 17:20:10 <Luke-Jr> TD: SD is doing 1 tx per action.
 843 2012-11-29 17:20:15 <BlueMatt> Id argue bitcoin is handling sd load pretty well, its just more load than we would prefer to have with the system in its current state
 844 2012-11-29 17:20:18 <swulf--> bitcoin network needs to be able to handle 1000x the traffic if it expects to be anything greater than this
 845 2012-11-29 17:20:24 <gmaxwell> no, two per action.
 846 2012-11-29 17:20:26 <Luke-Jr> TD: that'd be like walmart processing each can of soda pop as a separate transaction
 847 2012-11-29 17:20:31 <Luke-Jr> right, two
 848 2012-11-29 17:20:39 <gmaxwell> But this is really offtopic here now.
 849 2012-11-29 17:20:56 <BlueMatt> swulf--: and it will, but...yea, this discussion has happened here so many times, let not get into it again :)
 850 2012-11-29 17:21:00 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: 1000x more users can handle 1000x the traffic.
 851 2012-11-29 17:21:09 <Luke-Jr> (also 1000x more development time, etc)
 852 2012-11-29 17:21:11 <swulf--> also, downloading 5GB blockchain is a huge deterrant at this point for newcomers
 853 2012-11-29 17:21:33 <zeiris> Have there been any practical (ie safe) solutions to trimming the blockchain in the last few months?
 854 2012-11-29 17:21:45 <BlueMatt> yes
 855 2012-11-29 17:21:53 <BlueMatt> actually, a lot
 856 2012-11-29 17:21:59 <zeiris> Any good starting points for reading about 'em? :)
 857 2012-11-29 17:22:01 <gmaxwell> swulf--: 5GB is really small, I think most modern commercial games are now larger than that. And there is no reason that it has to be a blocker in front of new users.
 858 2012-11-29 17:22:16 <Luke-Jr> but in practice, Bitcoin will suffer if people are trimming the blockchain too much at this point
 859 2012-11-29 17:22:20 <swulf--> gmax: and most modern commercial games aren't downloaded. they're still purchased in stores
 860 2012-11-29 17:22:27 <Luke-Jr> because there aren't enough peers
 861 2012-11-29 17:22:43 <gmaxwell> swulf--: so? go buy your bitcoin client in a store then? :P
 862 2012-11-29 17:22:47 <zeiris> I think the issue with 5GB was that, last I checked, it was a really non-linear download that thrashed your hard drive. The challenge was getting the thing onto your harddrive and packed in the right format, not 5GB of traffic. That's trivial now.
 863 2012-11-29 17:23:18 <swulf--> gmaxwell: not-sure-if-serious.jpg
 864 2012-11-29 17:23:20 <sipa> zeiris: that's being solved
 865 2012-11-29 17:23:26 <zeiris> Ooh!
 866 2012-11-29 17:23:28 ne0futur has joined
 867 2012-11-29 17:23:29 <gmaxwell> zeiris: the newest software (not yet released) can fully sync in an hour or two.
 868 2012-11-29 17:23:31 <Luke-Jr> zeiris: ultraprune in theory speeds up the processing and IO
 869 2012-11-29 17:23:56 <sipa> Luke-Jr: was practice different for you?
 870 2012-11-29 17:24:06 <Luke-Jr> sipa: in practice, I can't get it to sync period :P
 871 2012-11-29 17:24:07 <swulf--> I synced the whole blockchain a few weeks ago and it was pretty brutal to disk usage
 872 2012-11-29 17:24:20 <TD> yeah. the code in git master is a lot better at that
 873 2012-11-29 17:24:28 <Luke-Jr> still stuck with sipa: bitcoind: main.cpp:1457: bool CBlock::DisconnectBlock(CBlockIndex*, CCoinsViewCache&): Assertion `blockUndo.vtxundo.size() + 1 == vtx.size()' failed.
 874 2012-11-29 17:24:29 <TD> and it lays the foundation for deletion of old data (by some nodes)
 875 2012-11-29 17:24:38 <swulf--> TD: cool.  new version is desperately wanted then
 876 2012-11-29 17:24:48 <gmaxwell> well, 'some foundation' at least.
 877 2012-11-29 17:24:52 <TD> yeah, well, we all want it out ASAP. unfortunately now sipa has a job :) so, things are going a bit slower
 878 2012-11-29 17:25:03 <swulf--> no worries. it'll come when its ready
 879 2012-11-29 17:25:05 <swulf--> later guys. dinner calls:)
 880 2012-11-29 17:25:13 <gmaxwell> swulf--: then get in and start testing the new stuff (preferably on testnet and mainnet with wallets where you're not worried about losing coin)
 881 2012-11-29 17:25:33 <gmaxwell> swulf--: it'll never be ready if everyone who wants it says "it'll come when its ready". :P
 882 2012-11-29 17:26:10 <Luke-Jr> hmm, I wonder if jgarzik is around? :>
 883 2012-11-29 17:26:43 <sipa> Luke-Jr: is that a clean sync from scratch?
 884 2012-11-29 17:26:54 <Luke-Jr> sipa: -reindex from scratch
 885 2012-11-29 17:27:13 quijibo has joined
 886 2012-11-29 17:27:21 <sipa> Luke-Jr: ok, whatever your block files contain, that is a bug then
 887 2012-11-29 17:27:27 * helo decides to do a full network sync
 888 2012-11-29 17:27:40 <helo> -loadblocks has been taking 2.3 hours or so
 889 2012-11-29 17:27:54 <sipa> Luke-Jr: anything special like read-only files or hardlinks?
 890 2012-11-29 17:28:02 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I gave up on those, so no.
 891 2012-11-29 17:28:42 <sipa> TD: next step is indeed auto-upgrade, but i've been working on bug reports mostly
 892 2012-11-29 17:29:08 <sipa> Luke-Jr: just to be sure: no test_bitcoin executed since -reindex was started?
 893 2012-11-29 17:29:18 <TD> wt
 894 2012-11-29 17:29:19 <TD> wt
 895 2012-11-29 17:29:22 <Luke-Jr> sipa: correct, I avoided test_bitcoin running
 896 2012-11-29 17:29:22 <TD> argh i hate this keyboard
 897 2012-11-29 17:29:24 <TD> i wanted to say
 898 2012-11-29 17:29:25 <TD> WTF
 899 2012-11-29 17:29:32 <TD> why does there not seem to be a free Qt SDK download anymore?
 900 2012-11-29 17:30:17 <sipa> Luke-Jr: can you put your blk*.dat files online somewhere, or is it too much?
 901 2012-11-29 17:30:48 <Luke-Jr> yeah, probably… tempting to write some kind of script to "compress" it by using block hashes :P
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 904 2012-11-29 17:32:24 <Luke-Jr> sipa: first I'll do one more verify of the problem from a clean ~/.bitcoin
 905 2012-11-29 17:32:49 <sipa> i got 4 times a failed build/test from pulltester yesterday on #2049, and it seems it has given up on my pull now :(
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 909 2012-11-29 17:34:43 <TD> ah it's at a different site
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 915 2012-11-29 17:46:24 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: ?
 916 2012-11-29 17:49:01 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: do you know of any reason why one would want to software-RAID-1 across two partitions on the same hard disk?
 917 2012-11-29 17:49:25 <jgarzik> <shrug>  I suppose it would guard against some sectors dying and not others
 918 2012-11-29 17:49:39 <jgarzik> but seems largely pointless
 919 2012-11-29 17:50:01 <Luke-Jr> yeah, that's what I thought :/
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 921 2012-11-29 17:50:17 <Luke-Jr> I think I'm going to blow away WD's setup and just stick Gentoo or Debian on this thing
 922 2012-11-29 17:50:35 Mad7Scientist has joined
 923 2012-11-29 17:50:50 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well failing _sectors_ seem to have become more common as disks have become larger.
 924 2012-11-29 17:50:52 jm9000 has quit ()
 925 2012-11-29 17:52:48 <jgarzik> Modern disks have spare sectors, too.  You can usually fix a bad sector these days by writing zeroes to it.  That will trigger replacement of a bad sector.
 926 2012-11-29 17:53:08 tonikt has joined
 927 2012-11-29 17:53:30 <jgarzik> i.e. in this scenario, mark RAID1 partition bad, un-add RAID1 partition, re-add.
 928 2012-11-29 17:53:46 <jgarzik> resync from the good half should reinit the data
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 932 2012-11-29 18:02:49 <Luke-Jr> hmm, not sure I'm worried about sector failure for WD's firmware data more than I would be for my actual files
 933 2012-11-29 18:03:55 <jgarzik> wosh
 934 2012-11-29 18:03:57 <jgarzik> woah
 935 2012-11-29 18:04:04 <jgarzik> one backbone node, running HEAD, crashed
 936 2012-11-29 18:04:07 <midnightmagic> Just fwiw, since I'm probably lost in the scrollback. I disagree with pull request 1980, but only because as I understand it, it doesn't reorg to same-work trees that are submitted locally by a miner. Unless I'm misunderstanding, 1980 isn't good for miners. :(
 937 2012-11-29 18:04:22 <jgarzik> ************************
 938 2012-11-29 18:04:22 <jgarzik> EXCEPTION: NSt8ios_base7failureE
 939 2012-11-29 18:04:22 <jgarzik> CDataStream::read() : end of data
 940 2012-11-29 18:04:22 <jgarzik> bitcoin in ThreadMessageHandler()
 941 2012-11-29 18:05:03 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: perhaps it's not two partitions of the same physical hard disk?
 942 2012-11-29 18:05:27 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: this is a single 3 TB drive NAS
 943 2012-11-29 18:05:47 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: don't be daft please. 1980 fixes a bug introduced by ultraprune which would significantly hurt network convergance an increase the risk for double spending.
 944 2012-11-29 18:06:09 <Luke-Jr> sipa: confirmed clean datadir has this problem, will put blk files somewhere
 945 2012-11-29 18:06:34 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: That's why I said "but". This change ignores locally-solved solutions that are same-height stales, correct?
 946 2012-11-29 18:06:42 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: if you wanted to reorg for your own blocks— meh. it's such a small difference, and hard to make workable as soon as you have more than one bitcoind.
 947 2012-11-29 18:06:47 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: which is what bitcoin has always done.
 948 2012-11-29 18:06:48 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: ...and that is a correct behavior
 949 2012-11-29 18:07:46 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: as much as I hate to lose a block, the classical "never reorg to same height or backward" rule works out nicely
 950 2012-11-29 18:07:50 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: You really gotta work on the name-calling thing..
 951 2012-11-29 18:08:05 <midnightmagic> :-/
 952 2012-11-29 18:09:20 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: ... You're opposing fixing a newly introduced bug that risks network convergence. This is a clear sign of required coffee intake. I get to say you're being daft.
 953 2012-11-29 18:09:34 <gmaxwell> :P
 954 2012-11-29 18:10:03 <D34TH> gmaxwell, bugs are just undocumented features
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 957 2012-11-29 18:11:40 <jgarzik> other two exmulti backbone nodes still up
 958 2012-11-29 18:11:45 <jgarzik> just us2 died
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 961 2012-11-29 18:15:21 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: No I'm not.
 962 2012-11-29 18:16:42 <jgarzik> OK, time to upgrade backbone from 0.7.1-ish to 0.8/HEAD
 963 2012-11-29 18:16:51 <jgarzik> let's see what new crashes HEAD will bring
 964 2012-11-29 18:17:05 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: good luck >_<
 965 2012-11-29 18:17:19 <jgarzik> even though it's mainnet, I'll set a core on mining long-term
 966 2012-11-29 18:17:29 <jgarzik> should increase possibility of catching bugs
 967 2012-11-29 18:19:48 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: would you be willing to setup and run a VM on the dev team machine as another backbone (and/or maybe permanent testnet) node?
 968 2012-11-29 18:21:03 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: is that in addition to other nodes already running on that machine?  it seems not much use to run multiple mainnet and testnet nodes on there.
 969 2012-11-29 18:21:29 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: right now it is just running jenkins.
 970 2012-11-29 18:21:46 <etotheipi_> are non M-of-N transactions considered isStandard?  i.e. ((A and B) or C)?   If I create a P2SH script using ((A and B) or C), it will be propagated normally because no one knows, but the redemption script will be non-std...?
 971 2012-11-29 18:21:54 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: lol Well, don't get all bent out of shape when I start calling you daft. I would like to point out that name-calling tends to entrench people, especially when they've already requested clarification.
 972 2012-11-29 18:22:10 <midnightmagic> So no, name-calling is never called-for.
 973 2012-11-29 18:22:12 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: in that case, I would be willing yes.  B.F. needs to run nodes
 974 2012-11-29 18:22:13 <etotheipi_> (and require a miner to agree to accept the redemption script)
 975 2012-11-29 18:22:17 <midnightmagic> ya douche.
 976 2012-11-29 18:22:19 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: no.  Standard scripts are CHECKSIG, CHECKMULTISIG, and DUP HASH160 <> EQUALVERIFY CHECKSIG
 977 2012-11-29 18:22:19 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ideally, it should run nodes on multiple networks
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 979 2012-11-29 18:22:20 <sipa> midnightmagic: you may argue that we should favor locally produced blocks, but the current situation is just a violation of the network rules
 980 2012-11-29 18:22:27 <sipa> midnightmagic: #1980 is a bug fix
 981 2012-11-29 18:22:54 <midnightmagic> sipa: And I'm running it in my miners due to the fact it's a bugfix, and I agree with the general-case.
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 983 2012-11-29 18:23:04 <midnightmagic> sipa: fwiw. (:P gmaxwell)
 984 2012-11-29 18:23:10 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: we've got the budget to buy more physical machines, if you want to spearhead that project....
 985 2012-11-29 18:23:10 <sipa> midnightmagic: it's just restoring the pre-ultraprune behaviour
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 987 2012-11-29 18:23:22 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: so it is correct that if you made a P2SH script with non-std type, you'd have to find a miner to help you redeem it
 988 2012-11-29 18:23:28 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: yes
 989 2012-11-29 18:23:44 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: you'd have no trouble funding it, though
 990 2012-11-29 18:23:51 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: I'm not requesting it, but I'm curious if we have any intention to make those standard
 991 2012-11-29 18:23:54 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: It would mainly be a cost comparison between physical and VPS
 992 2012-11-29 18:24:15 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: if we can get more nodes for the dollar, running VPS's, that might be the way to go.
 993 2012-11-29 18:24:26 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: ok.  Wanna be the person to make that happen?
 994 2012-11-29 18:24:34 <sipa> BlueMatt: any idea what pulltester gave up trying #2049?
 995 2012-11-29 18:24:38 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: if the goal (mine is) is to have as many wallet-free nodes as possible
 996 2012-11-29 18:24:42 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: mainly I'm wondering if I should build them into my wallet design now, or simply leave room to do it later
 997 2012-11-29 18:24:53 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I don't mind the responsibility...  but probably won't have time for a week or two
 998 2012-11-29 18:25:16 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: and I can definitely work on getting main/test nodes on the monster
 999 2012-11-29 18:25:45 <midnightmagic> sipa: I agree with the bugfix, especially if it restored pre-ultraprune behaviour. This was the genesis of my confusion, that I wasn't clear on pre-bugfix behaviour. Then I alter my position: I would *like* to favour local blocks, but only because of the long-term lottery-like benefits as bitcoin value increases over time and this issue is buried.
1000 2012-11-29 18:25:46 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: great, talk with Matt, he setup the VM host stuff
1001 2012-11-29 18:25:54 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: will do
1002 2012-11-29 18:25:59 <jgarzik> backbone project++
1003 2012-11-29 18:26:04 <gavinandresen> amen!
1004 2012-11-29 18:26:08 <midnightmagic> sipa: Would you object to a softly-worded feature request for posterity?
1005 2012-11-29 18:26:24 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: do you have logs from here from about 13 months ago?
1006 2012-11-29 18:26:30 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Yes.
1007 2012-11-29 18:26:37 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: there was a long discussion about this around then.
1008 2012-11-29 18:26:43 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: don't suppose we have the budget to hire sipa away from his new job? :P
1009 2012-11-29 18:27:01 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: not yet... need a few more Platinum members
1010 2012-11-29 18:28:08 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: My recollection of it was that it seemed not to be a worthwhile thing considering the increased bug exposure, because that the probablity of it mattering quite low, it favors hashpower consolidation (making the mistaken belief that bigger pools get an unfair advantage actually true), and because it stops helping as soon as you're mining on more than one bitcoind.
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1013 2012-11-29 18:28:47 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: This is a personal question and feel free not to answer:  are you personally secure yet, vis a vis B.F. salary?  Are you funded for at least a year?
1014 2012-11-29 18:29:18 <Luke-Jr> sipa: http://eligius.st/~luke-jr/blk00000.dat.xz
1015 2012-11-29 18:29:26 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I don't suppose there's evidence tycho is favouring his own blocks is there?
1016 2012-11-29 18:29:33 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: the opposite, in fact.
1017 2012-11-29 18:29:52 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i'll download it tonight
1018 2012-11-29 18:29:53 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: Tycho has produced competing blocks even :P
1019 2012-11-29 18:29:59 <gmaxwell> he's actually managed to issue getworks on competing forks.
1020 2012-11-29 18:30:01 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: It was all set to be surprised. Tycho being so reluctant to alter the base bitcoind behaviour from satoshi's original stuff for so long..
1021 2012-11-29 18:30:16 <midnightmagic> it/I
1022 2012-11-29 18:30:45 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: yes, the Foundation has started paying me a "good enough" salary (hopefully to be increased closer to my fair market value as membership/funding/bitcoin prices allow...)
1023 2012-11-29 18:30:46 <gmaxwell> (something that should be hard to accomplish without modifying things or at least having partitioning between your own nodes!)
1024 2012-11-29 18:31:20 * midnightmagic pipes down.
1025 2012-11-29 18:31:21 <midnightmagic> thanks.
1026 2012-11-29 18:31:27 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: good deal
1027 2012-11-29 18:31:45 * jgarzik starts bringing up us2.exmulti.net (crashed backbone node) on 0.8/HEAD
1028 2012-11-29 18:31:52 <jgarzik> look at that fast syncing, whee
1029 2012-11-29 18:31:59 <D34TH> whee
1030 2012-11-29 18:32:06 <zeiris> Awesome!
1031 2012-11-29 18:32:13 * D34TH waves his hands in the air like he just don't care
1032 2012-11-29 18:32:27 <midnightmagic> to all of you: THANK YOU for the super-fast sync'ing stuff in HEAD. you really saved me a pile of time.
1033 2012-11-29 18:32:49 <midnightmagic> like weeks of combined machine time..
1034 2012-11-29 18:33:22 <gavinandresen> lunch time...
1035 2012-11-29 18:33:39 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: are you still getting periodic corruption?
1036 2012-11-29 18:33:45 <jgarzik> gangnam time...
1037 2012-11-29 18:34:54 <jgarzik> I am concerned about a few reports w/ leveldb along the lines of "my machine crashed, now program won't come back up"
1038 2012-11-29 18:35:00 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Not anymore. I believe it was FS structural corruption. I moved the main mining bitcoind off the problematic machines and and waiting now. I'm running two different versions, one leveldb (just HEAD from github), and one next-test, for my mining p2pool+bitcoind.
1039 2012-11-29 18:35:08 <jgarzik> i.e. crash not necessarily bitcoin's fault
1040 2012-11-29 18:35:14 <jgarzik> but bitcoin failed to recover afterwards
1041 2012-11-29 18:36:05 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I also did a full reinstall of that machine. I'm almost of the opinion that the mining activities makes kernel lose interrupts, but.. of course it's such a far-fetched possibility I've never really attempted to pursue it. that and I'm super lazy.
1042 2012-11-29 18:36:41 <midnightmagic> doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the physical disk..
1043 2012-11-29 18:37:14 <BlueMatt> sipa: did you delete the comment on the pull req?
1044 2012-11-29 18:37:50 <BlueMatt> sipa: anyway, test log is at http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/7b3b6b85a86c85dab4ad3c1093fe0e48f4853d31/test.log (thats just the commit id of the head of the pull branch)
1045 2012-11-29 18:37:58 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1046 2012-11-29 18:37:58 <BlueMatt> error is:
1047 2012-11-29 18:37:59 <BlueMatt> test/test_bitcoin.cpp: In constructor 'TestingSetup::TestingSetup()':
1048 2012-11-29 18:37:59 <BlueMatt> test/test_bitcoin.cpp:24:31: error: 'GetTempDir' was not declared in this scope
1049 2012-11-29 18:38:25 <sipa> BlueMatt: that's the last failed one, but after that i updated again
1050 2012-11-29 18:38:36 <sipa> (i think)
1051 2012-11-29 18:38:37 <BlueMatt> thats the commit id github shows as head?
1052 2012-11-29 18:38:48 <sipa> oh, then i was just too tired and forgot to push :D
1053 2012-11-29 18:38:48 <BlueMatt> github lag?
1054 2012-11-29 18:38:58 <sipa> no, it was yesterday evening
1055 2012-11-29 18:39:10 <BlueMatt> ah, ok
1056 2012-11-29 18:39:41 <sipa> jgarzik: i'm generally concerned about the quality of the windows port
1057 2012-11-29 18:40:06 <sipa> jgarzik: reports like it using a gig of RAM and slowing down and crashing... seems like a leak
1058 2012-11-29 18:41:36 <sipa> jgarzik: on my own system i haven't been able to corrupt the leveldb ever
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1060 2012-11-29 18:41:53 <D34TH> sweet i got midstatec compiled on windows for mingw32
1061 2012-11-29 18:43:15 <jgarzik> sipa: rofl we'll wind up implementing our own db at this rate
1062 2012-11-29 18:43:56 <sipa> jgarzik: note that i made some small modifications myself to the win port, as it was not compatible with pre-c11xx gcc
1063 2012-11-29 18:48:33 <jgarzik> yeah saw at least one report about gig of ram & crashing
1064 2012-11-29 18:48:45 <jgarzik> WTH would it use so much ram?
1065 2012-11-29 18:49:26 <sipa> ... leak
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1068 2012-11-29 18:54:21 <D34TH> i've not seen it use more than 300mb ram
1069 2012-11-29 18:54:28 <D34TH> and i have the most problematic system every
1070 2012-11-29 18:54:52 <D34TH> since i switched to head all my problems go away if i even have one
1071 2012-11-29 18:55:40 <sipa> midnightmagic: thanks, by the way :)
1072 2012-11-29 18:57:32 Bootstrapper has joined
1073 2012-11-29 19:01:47 <D34TH> woohoo i got stratum mining proxy working on windows
1074 2012-11-29 19:01:50 <D34TH> i am champion
1075 2012-11-29 19:01:56 <D34TH> time to propose changes to slush
1076 2012-11-29 19:02:14 <midnightmagic> sipa: what for?
1077 2012-11-29 19:02:29 <sipa> 19:19:46 < midnightmagic> to all of you: THANK YOU for the super-fast sync'ing stuff in HEAD. you really saved me a pile of time
1078 2012-11-29 19:02:55 <midnightmagic> oh, y/w, it's kicking some serious butt over here.
1079 2012-11-29 19:03:07 <sipa> still some rough spots :)
1080 2012-11-29 19:03:21 <midnightmagic> well i don't mind mining on HEAD, I'll take the risk.
1081 2012-11-29 19:03:47 <sipa> i'm sure you (and several others, myself included) don't mind the personal risk
1082 2012-11-29 19:04:07 <sipa> but if a significant portion of the mining power was on HEAD, and there was a forking bug...
1083 2012-11-29 19:05:52 <midnightmagic> I'm going to eat my words in about 4 months, probably, but while I would never do something on purpose to generate problems on non-testnet, if it happened despite best-efforts I would be excited.
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1090 2012-11-29 19:17:00 <MC1984> hey gentlemen
1091 2012-11-29 19:17:07 <MC1984> how is 0.8 going
1092 2012-11-29 19:18:16 <D34TH> jgarzik, writing up a batch commit for picocoin
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1096 2012-11-29 19:23:05 <werlitz> was bangdb ever considered over leveldb? from these benchmarks it looks like it has superior performance: http://highscalability.com/blog/2012/11/29/performance-data-for-leveldb-berkley-db-and-bangdb-for-rando.html
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1099 2012-11-29 19:35:27 <sipa> werlitz: no; haven't heard about it before
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1103 2012-11-29 19:43:50 <jgarzik> D34TH: go for it
1104 2012-11-29 19:44:02 <D34TH> it's being naughty but im trying
1105 2012-11-29 19:45:01 <D34TH> poll.h is a massive blockade i don't want to dig into
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1113 2012-11-29 19:51:05 <jgarzik> D34TH: picocoin already requires libevent, so poll could be replaced with that
1114 2012-11-29 19:51:46 <jgarzik> D34TH: and fork() usage could be replaced with thread, for Windows only
1115 2012-11-29 19:51:50 BlackPrapor has joined
1116 2012-11-29 19:52:06 <jgarzik> I'm fine with Win-specific code, where it is impossible to find an easy cross-platform solution
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1118 2012-11-29 19:52:20 <D34TH> i've also replaced your define win32
1119 2012-11-29 19:52:25 <D34TH> with __MINGW__
1120 2012-11-29 19:52:26 <D34TH> :D
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1145 2012-11-29 20:42:10 <jgarzik> wonder if it's time to do another checkpoint
1146 2012-11-29 20:42:27 * jgarzik leans towards "checkpoint right before 0.8rc1"
1147 2012-11-29 20:42:47 * jgarzik needs to redo the torrent for the max-file-size problem in 0.7
1148 2012-11-29 20:43:17 <gmaxwell> I'd missed this problem?
1149 2012-11-29 20:44:53 isitlove has joined
1150 2012-11-29 20:46:20 <TD> gavinandresen: do you have any plans to acquire an apple signing cert?
1151 2012-11-29 20:47:16 <gavinandresen> TD: thanks for the reminder, I'll ask Patrick if there has been progress on the Foundation getting a DUNS number (I want the Foundation to be the legal entity behind the signing cert)
1152 2012-11-29 20:47:28 <TD> ah yes
1153 2012-11-29 20:47:28 <sipa> jgarzik: 210000 is a nice checkpoint candidate, imho :)
1154 2012-11-29 20:47:39 <TD> the DUNS numbe
1155 2012-11-29 20:48:31 <sipa> we could add a temporary one now a few 1000 blocks back, and replace it for 0.8
1156 2012-11-29 20:49:09 <BlueMatt> or, since its just master and we arent releasing it, we could just checkpoint 210000 and not release right away
1157 2012-11-29 20:49:15 <BlueMatt> (or are we talking about an rc?)
1158 2012-11-29 20:49:25 <BlueMatt> (ie do I need to kick my ass in gear re: bloom filters)
1159 2012-11-29 20:51:17 <sipa> given that syncing from scratch from disk takes 15 minutes to het to 193k, and 2 hours or so for the rest...
1160 2012-11-29 20:51:25 <sipa> ... we need parallel sig check
1161 2012-11-29 20:51:44 <BlueMatt> hey, bitcoinj actually has something that bitcoind doesnt for full verification :)
1162 2012-11-29 20:51:54 <sipa> hehe
1163 2012-11-29 20:52:06 <TD> :)
1164 2012-11-29 20:52:22 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: but is it 4x slower but runs 4 in parallel? :P
1165 2012-11-29 20:52:36 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: LoadExternalBlockFile() used fseek(FILE*, 32-bit signed int) throughout the block loading operation
1166 2012-11-29 20:52:42 <BlueMatt> sipa: did I see you already did some parallel sig checking, or not, because a lot of the branch I did for cblockstore should still apply
1167 2012-11-29 20:52:48 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: so current bootstrap.dat is effectively truncated in practice
1168 2012-11-29 20:52:58 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: not the branch I have, its only like 3x slower and runs 4 in parallel :)
1169 2012-11-29 20:53:14 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: sipa fixed the problem, but 0.7 and 0.7.1 remain impacted
1170 2012-11-29 20:53:39 <jgarzik> sipa: yes, a nice checkpoint :)
1171 2012-11-29 20:53:44 <sipa> BlueMatt: i had it working, except for an occasional segfault
1172 2012-11-29 20:53:44 <sipa> t
1173 2012-11-29 20:53:44 <sipa> blue	but i want to do it differently
1174 2012-11-29 20:54:01 <BlueMatt> ah, ok, nevermind then
1175 2012-11-29 20:54:40 <sipa> i'm really going to need to make a todo list and prioritize :(
1176 2012-11-29 20:55:09 <BlueMatt> heh
1177 2012-11-29 20:55:20 <TD> i wonder if we should just provide an openssl based implementation of ECKey
1178 2012-11-29 20:55:28 <TD> rather than try to optimize a java version
1179 2012-11-29 20:55:39 <BlueMatt> TD: next time I do the sig stuff, Im gonna do that
1180 2012-11-29 20:55:40 <TD> it'd not help android but then you aren't gonna do sig checking on android anyway.
1181 2012-11-29 20:55:42 <TD> yeah
1182 2012-11-29 20:55:47 <jgarzik> restarting crashed us2.exmulti.net (public backbone/fallback node) on git HEAD
1183 2012-11-29 20:55:51 <jgarzik> let's see how it goes
1184 2012-11-29 20:55:53 <BlueMatt> (probably just use hal's as-is and throw it in a jni wrapper)
1185 2012-11-29 20:55:58 <jgarzik> (note the crash was pre-ultraprune)
1186 2012-11-29 20:56:24 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: ever figure out hal's comments on further speedups?
1187 2012-11-29 20:56:25 <TD> sounds good
1188 2012-11-29 20:56:43 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, sadly not (didnt spend too much time reading up on it though)
1189 2012-11-29 20:56:58 <sipa> TD: no EC crypto experts at google we could ask for help with that?
1190 2012-11-29 20:57:08 * BlueMatt is gonna have some busy holidays...
1191 2012-11-29 20:57:23 * jgarzik plans to import Hal's speedup that he posted, into picocoin
1192 2012-11-29 20:57:32 <TD> talk to emilia
1193 2012-11-29 20:57:45 <sipa> we provably should do the same in bitcoind
1194 2012-11-29 20:57:50 <sipa> *probably
1195 2012-11-29 20:57:56 <gmaxwell> QED
1196 2012-11-29 20:57:57 <TD> she wrote the paper on it, literally
1197 2012-11-29 20:57:58 <TD> http://dejanseo.com.au/research/google/37376.pdf
1198 2012-11-29 20:58:01 <TD> works at the zurich office too
1199 2012-11-29 20:58:09 <sipa> just import Hal's code now, and optimize further later
1200 2012-11-29 20:58:12 <sipa> TD: cool
1201 2012-11-29 20:58:25 <TD> that paper is called "Fast Elliptic Curve Cryptography in OpenSSL"
1202 2012-11-29 20:58:29 <TD> so if anyone knows, it should be her :)
1203 2012-11-29 20:58:46 <D34TH> who knows, she might even have bitcoin
1204 2012-11-29 20:58:47 <D34TH> :D
1205 2012-11-29 20:59:06 <D34TH> s/have/use
1206 2012-11-29 21:00:49 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1207 2012-11-29 21:00:50 <sipa> oh wow
1208 2012-11-29 21:01:56 <gmaxwell> sounds like someone to hit up on the hdwallet construct too.
1209 2012-11-29 21:02:22 <jgarzik> sipa: agreed (RE import now opt later)
1210 2012-11-29 21:02:38 * jgarzik is tempted to do a little endian, BigInt implementation
1211 2012-11-29 21:02:43 <jgarzik> I don't like OpenSSL's
1212 2012-11-29 21:02:47 <jgarzik> the more I use it and see it
1213 2012-11-29 21:02:52 <sipa> how about gmp?
1214 2012-11-29 21:03:08 <jgarzik> everybody seems to want to do things as big endian, then swap on LE
1215 2012-11-29 21:03:19 <jgarzik> I was thinking of 32-bit LE int as smallest native type
1216 2012-11-29 21:03:23 <gmaxwell> I like GMP a lot, but it's lgpl...
1217 2012-11-29 21:03:45 <jgarzik> GMP seems to follow OpenSSL's BIGNUM in having a BE-centric, swap-back-to-LE-at-end implementation IIUC
1218 2012-11-29 21:03:57 <sipa> uh?
1219 2012-11-29 21:04:16 <sipa> internally it uses native 32-bit or 64-bit ints
1220 2012-11-29 21:04:39 <sipa> oh yes, lgpl
1221 2012-11-29 21:08:13 Z0rZ0rZ0r has joined
1222 2012-11-29 21:14:53 <jgarzik> well I'll be damned.  I thoroughly misunderstood OpenSSL's BIGNUM code
1223 2012-11-29 21:15:01 <jgarzik> I thought it was byte for byte not ulong for ulong
1224 2012-11-29 21:15:16 <jgarzik> I like it a lot more now
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1227 2012-11-29 21:18:58 <sipa> jgarzik: oh no, that would be horribly slow!
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1229 2012-11-29 21:19:50 <Eliel> what's the problem with lgpl? you can use it with code that's not gpl, no?
1230 2012-11-29 21:20:20 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1231 2012-11-29 21:21:16 <helo> you can link to it
1232 2012-11-29 21:21:38 <helo> but you can't grab a snippet of it and put it in your non-gpl code for optimization
1233 2012-11-29 21:23:58 <isitlove> selling at 12 usd via pp
1234 2012-11-29 21:24:03 <sipa> isitlove: #bitcoin-otc
1235 2012-11-29 21:24:10 <sipa> Luke-Jr: eta 2h
1236 2012-11-29 21:25:10 freakazoid has joined
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1238 2012-11-29 21:31:47 <gmaxwell> Eliel: it's not wrong, it would complicated the licensing. If jeff wanted to have downstream users of picocoin subject to the lgpl he might as well lgpl the whole thing.
1239 2012-11-29 21:34:37 <gmaxwell> (at least for something as central as a bignum library)
1240 2012-11-29 21:38:31 <sipa> Luke-Jr: pushed v0.7.2rc1 sigs; win32 matches
1241 2012-11-29 21:40:19 ThomasV_ has joined
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1246 2012-11-29 21:53:56 <TD> hmmm
1247 2012-11-29 21:54:00 <TD> bitmessage is sort of a disappointment
1248 2012-11-29 21:58:51 <gmaxwell> I successfully exchanged messages with someone in here with it... but.. yea. it's .. odd.
1249 2012-11-29 21:59:32 <TD> python was not the greatest choice ever
1250 2012-11-29 21:59:40 <TD> i got bored about 30 seconds in to generating a new identity
1251 2012-11-29 22:00:15 <gmaxwell> TD: RSA key generation just stinks. I don't even think thats python's problem there.
1252 2012-11-29 22:00:19 <TD> it's sort of like, the goal is good, the effort is good. but it needs more design work and a real implementation using C++ and ElGamal or something like that
1253 2012-11-29 22:00:30 <TD> afaict the rsa implementation he uses is pure python
1254 2012-11-29 22:01:05 <x18882> yeah forget about python for any intensive work
1255 2012-11-29 22:01:05 <x18882> or java for that matter
1256 2012-11-29 22:01:15 <gmaxwell> I don't see any reason why it's using RSA... certantly the bloated keys are not great for scalablity.
1257 2012-11-29 22:01:27 <slush1> ...it is just a prototype
1258 2012-11-29 22:01:58 <gmaxwell> The whole thing about having to have the counterparty online just so they can provide a public key is weird and unwelcome.
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1267 2012-11-29 22:27:33 <Luke-Jr> sipa: eta 2h for ?
1268 2012-11-29 22:28:52 <sipa> Luke-Jr: download of your block file done now
1269 2012-11-29 22:29:07 <sipa> Luke-Jr: download of your block file; done now
1270 2012-11-29 22:29:36 <Luke-Jr> ah
1271 2012-11-29 22:29:44 <jgarzik> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128413.0
1272 2012-11-29 22:29:44 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ready to build rc2? :P
1273 2012-11-29 22:29:47 <jgarzik> "Their system is based on a Bitcoin-style blockchain, much as we have
1274 2012-11-29 22:29:47 <jgarzik> discussed here over the last few years as an interesting possibility,
1275 2012-11-29 22:29:47 <jgarzik> but with a novel miner-less consensus mechanism that allows
1276 2012-11-29 22:29:47 <jgarzik> transactions to be confirmed nearly instantaneously."
1277 2012-11-29 22:29:51 <jgarzik> Ripple-based
1278 2012-11-29 22:30:20 <sipa> jgarzik: they even hired justmoon :)
1279 2012-11-29 22:31:01 <jgarzik> sounds like JoelKatz is on board too
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1282 2012-11-29 22:32:57 <Luke-Jr> funny they mention Jed specifically though
1283 2012-11-29 22:33:16 <Luke-Jr> after the 2011 MtGox exploits, I don't have much opinion of him
1284 2012-11-29 22:34:02 <sipa> there's no such thing as bad publicity :)
1285 2012-11-29 22:34:42 <Luke-Jr> sipa: perhaps, but I think it'd be better publicity if they left Jed out of it :P
1286 2012-11-29 22:34:59 chylee has joined
1287 2012-11-29 22:35:08 <Luke-Jr> seeing that makes me think "oh boy, I wonder how long until someone sets their debts to negative"
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1289 2012-11-29 22:40:45 <jgarzik> Jed is a big name, long before bitcoin
1290 2012-11-29 22:41:35 <jgarzik> Chris Larsen @ Prosper.com is an interesting name
1291 2012-11-29 22:41:47 <jgarzik> I did several thousand dollars worth of loans on Prosper.com, years ago
1292 2012-11-29 22:41:49 <sipa> Luke-Jr: at which block do you get the error?
1293 2012-11-29 22:42:01 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'm sorry for your loss. :P
1294 2012-11-29 22:42:02 <jgarzik> maybe 60% were paid back to me
1295 2012-11-29 22:42:26 <jgarzik> it was always high risk capital, but the Prosper.com community really reminded me of the bitcoin one
1296 2012-11-29 22:42:32 <jgarzik> high hopes of helping humanity
1297 2012-11-29 22:42:34 stalled has joined
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1299 2012-11-29 22:42:44 <jgarzik> but in the end, it turns out, poor people make really bad money managemment decisions
1300 2012-11-29 22:42:47 <sipa> jgarzik: that sounds like an anachronism :)
1301 2012-11-29 22:42:58 <jgarzik> and people with poor credit scores have poor credit scores for a good reason
1302 2012-11-29 22:43:08 <Luke-Jr> sipa: http://codepad.org/xssn6Wo4
1303 2012-11-29 22:43:45 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: sometimes*
1304 2012-11-29 22:43:56 <jgarzik> Just like the bitcoin community insists upon learning basic lessons about trust and money.  c.f. repeated cases where people trusted others they did not know to securely hold thousands or millions of dollars worth of bitcoins
1305 2012-11-29 22:43:58 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: lately it seems credit reporting agencies are just avenues for slander
1306 2012-11-29 22:44:01 <jgarzik> and not run off with them
1307 2012-11-29 22:44:43 <sipa> Luke-Jr: works flawless here
1308 2012-11-29 22:44:43 <jgarzik> "TORwallet was a scam, so I'm opening another TOR wallet.  I insist that _this_ one is not a scam, even though I and my site are anonymous"
1309 2012-11-29 22:45:02 <gmaxwell> hah did torwallet turn out to be a scam?
1310 2012-11-29 22:45:05 <Luke-Jr> sipa: you're located somewhere totally different. I don't expect there to be a comparison :P
1311 2012-11-29 22:45:14 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: looks like it
1312 2012-11-29 22:45:19 <gmaxwell> I didn't hear about it after telling everone it was probably a scam...
1313 2012-11-29 22:45:23 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i'm at 172k
1314 2012-11-29 22:45:27 <Luke-Jr> first I've heard of TORwallet
1315 2012-11-29 22:45:27 <jgarzik> the bitcoins done R-U-N-N-O-F-T
1316 2012-11-29 22:45:42 <Luke-Jr> sipa: O.o
1317 2012-11-29 22:45:54 <sipa> i passed that reorg, and nothing bad happened
1318 2012-11-29 22:46:11 <sipa> i can try doing it again under valgrind, but that can take a while
1319 2012-11-29 22:46:26 * Luke-Jr ponders
1320 2012-11-29 22:47:20 <sipa> Luke-Jr: so, what i do: i create a .bitcoin/bitcoin.conf, put your file in .bitcoin/blocks/, and run with -reindex
1321 2012-11-29 22:47:27 <Luke-Jr> sipa: on the off-chance my binary doesn't match my source, let me clean & rebuild first…
1322 2012-11-29 22:47:35 <sipa> in an otherwise completely empty .bitcoin
1323 2012-11-29 22:48:02 <sipa> on current git head (with #2049, but that should not be related)
1324 2012-11-29 22:48:53 <Luke-Jr> oh (#%*
1325 2012-11-29 22:49:02 <Luke-Jr> git stash refuses to stash unless you set name/email
1326 2012-11-29 22:49:40 <Luke-Jr> sigh
1327 2012-11-29 22:49:44 <sipa> haha :)
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1329 2012-11-29 22:51:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: i beat you :D
1330 2012-11-29 22:52:21 <gmaxwell> wtf!
1331 2012-11-29 22:52:34 <gmaxwell> how did we both manage to do that at the sameish time!
1332 2012-11-29 22:53:46 <sipa> sameish? 11 minutes is around 200 million km apart, relativistically!
1333 2012-11-29 22:54:26 <gmaxwell> well, same relative to the ~24 hours ago that we were discussing this before~
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1336 2012-11-29 22:56:28 <sipa> wow, optimized binary running under valgrind is faster than expected... 60k blocks in 7.5 minutes
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1341 2012-11-29 23:05:03 <helo> (network IBD finished in 5 hours 23 minutes)
1342 2012-11-29 23:06:08 <gmaxwell> helo: thats way slwo
1343 2012-11-29 23:06:10 <gmaxwell> er slow
1344 2012-11-29 23:06:20 <gmaxwell> helo: did it spend a lot of time stuck?
1345 2012-11-29 23:08:21 enolan has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1346 2012-11-29 23:08:34 chylee has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1347 2012-11-29 23:08:55 <helo> bah, already blew the log away to time loadblock IBD
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1349 2012-11-29 23:14:00 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i don't see rc2
1350 2012-11-29 23:14:39 <Luke-Jr> sipa: yeah, since rc1 took a bit, I was waiting until you and wumpus say you're ready to tag it, in case anything else crops up to add
1351 2012-11-29 23:15:21 <sipa> #2033 maybe? though there is little risk for 0.7.x, except for a very slow memory leak
1352 2012-11-29 23:15:38 slush1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1353 2012-11-29 23:16:11 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: ^ ?
1354 2012-11-29 23:16:27 <sipa> i'd say not include that
1355 2012-11-29 23:16:36 <sipa> risk/benefit
1356 2012-11-29 23:17:23 <Luke-Jr> I was thinking more likely the stupid hotkey conflict fix, but not important to delay rc2 for either
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1361 2012-11-29 23:21:55 Pasha is now known as Cory
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1363 2012-11-29 23:23:42 <sipa> Luke-Jr: anyway, i can start a build until 2 hours from now
1364 2012-11-29 23:25:17 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1365 2012-11-29 23:26:21 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ok, I'll plan to push the tag within an hour then
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1375 2012-11-29 23:41:09 <D34TH> can you specify datadir in bitcoin.conf?
1376 2012-11-29 23:41:34 <gavinandresen> yes, but then the universe implodes.
1377 2012-11-29 23:41:37 cypherdoc has joined
1378 2012-11-29 23:41:54 <D34TH> well it wouldnt matter if i had bitcoin.conf in appdata but i want the blockchain elsewhere
1379 2012-11-29 23:42:50 <gavinandresen> seriously, yes, if I recall correctly you can.  But it is less mind-bending to specify -datadir=.... -conf=....
1380 2012-11-29 23:43:09 <gavinandresen> ... on the command-line
1381 2012-11-29 23:43:58 <D34TH> okey
1382 2012-11-29 23:48:41 <D34TH> ooh
1383 2012-11-29 23:48:44 <D34TH> for extra points
1384 2012-11-29 23:50:55 <D34TH> brb dinrar
1385 2012-11-29 23:51:01 <D34TH> whoops wrong window
1386 2012-11-29 23:51:04 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1387 2012-11-29 23:51:08 <D34TH> i feel stupid
1388 2012-11-29 23:55:13 <phantomcircuit> D34TH, you can but dont
1389 2012-11-29 23:56:52 ThomasV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)