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4 2012-12-04 00:13:17 <optimator> any one familiar with the "hashMerkleRoot mismatch" in debug.log?
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8 2012-12-04 00:17:23 <sipa> optimator: "familiar" is a strong statement, but i'm quite sure it means the merkle root provided in the block header doesn't match the merkle root calculated from the transaction list
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12 2012-12-04 00:21:49 <optimator> sipa: ok, thanks
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33 2012-12-04 01:34:20 <etotheipi_> sipa: btw, what are you using for benchmarking?
34 2012-12-04 01:34:35 <sipa> gmaxwell
35 2012-12-04 01:34:44 <etotheipi_> haha
36 2012-12-04 01:34:57 <sipa> wall clock time, really
37 2012-12-04 01:35:09 <etotheipi_> I meant, what code constructs?
38 2012-12-04 01:35:11 xIsalty has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
39 2012-12-04 01:35:17 <etotheipi_> C++, CLOCKS_PER_SEC?
40 2012-12-04 01:36:18 <sipa> boost::posix_time::microsec_clock::universal_time()
41 2012-12-04 01:36:31 <etotheipi_> ooh, right... boost has useful stuff for that
42 2012-12-04 01:36:48 <etotheipi_> I have a cool construct I came up with, which might be useful
43 2012-12-04 01:36:55 <etotheipi_> I now just automatically time all my functions
44 2012-12-04 01:37:50 <etotheipi_> it's a singleton class that keeps a map of timers (indexed by name/string).... and you create a TimerToken at the top of the function to start the timer, and it stops the timer when it destructs
45 2012-12-04 01:38:24 <etotheipi_> and then accumulates numCalls and avgTime into a .csv
46 2012-12-04 01:38:32 <etotheipi_> for each neam
47 2012-12-04 01:38:37 <etotheipi_> *name
48 2012-12-04 01:39:06 <sipa> you may want to look into compiling with profiling enabled
49 2012-12-04 01:39:15 <sipa> that does that automatically :)
50 2012-12-04 01:39:38 <etotheipi_> well, it can of course time arbitrary code blocks, too
51 2012-12-04 01:40:22 <etotheipi_> I'm just throwing it out there, that it's a pretty compact timing class that is easy to use, if you do a lot of benchmarking
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53 2012-12-04 01:41:12 <etotheipi_> but I probably should've known that compilers have profiling options...
54 2012-12-04 01:42:18 <yellowhat> i'll just randomly throw out that i love my java profiling tools. they are really mature and partly integrated in the ide/testcases. of course that does not help you right now :) good night!
55 2012-12-04 01:43:08 <etotheipi_> you can also put tokens inside of loops and it will time every cycle of the loop
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60 2012-12-04 01:57:07 <jgarzik> D34TH: http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/06/17/1351251/spdy-not-as-speedy-as-hyped
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63 2012-12-04 01:58:42 <jgarzik> now that TX signing is implemented, time to turn attention back to the SPV client
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69 2012-12-04 02:12:24 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: where are you getting the random data for signing?
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72 2012-12-04 02:18:45 <D34TH> alright time to pull the latest picocoin and see if i can compile it
73 2012-12-04 02:19:32 <D34TH> damn
74 2012-12-04 02:19:59 <D34TH> glib is a PITA
75 2012-12-04 02:22:09 <D34TH> static declaration of g_list_free_full
76 2012-12-04 02:22:19 <D34TH> jgarzik, naughty?
77 2012-12-04 02:23:33 <D34TH> removed it, and it got back up to pfd?
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81 2012-12-04 02:33:25 <D34TH> jgarzik i'm totally going to pullreq some code
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87 2012-12-04 02:52:23 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yes, half the point of spdy is that you can marginally speed up over http so that you can enable https on all connections (which the internet desperately needs...)
88 2012-12-04 02:54:01 <Luke-Jr> but https depends on the broken CA model and doesn't work for people who won't shell out $$$ for a cert
89 2012-12-04 02:54:24 EPiSKiNG- has joined
90 2012-12-04 02:55:17 <BlueMatt> yes, pki is broken, but having marginal security that depends on pki is 1000x better than no encryption at all
91 2012-12-04 02:55:21 <Luke-Jr> but that article is bogus, since he was "testing" SPDY on non-SPDY sites!
92 2012-12-04 02:56:05 <gmaxwell> 12/04/12 02:01:07 SetBestChain: new best=00000000839a8e6886ab5951d76f411475428afc90947ee320161bbf18eb6048 height=1 work=8590065666 tx=2 date=01/09/09 02:54:25
93 2012-12-04 02:56:09 <gmaxwell> 12/04/12 02:41:20 SetBestChain: new best=000000000000048b95347e83192f69cf0366076336c639f9b7228e9ba171342e height=210000 work=628963747775700992096 tx=9344662 date=11/28/12 15:24:38
94 2012-12-04 02:56:18 <gmaxwell> sipa: your latest update seems slower; I ran it stice to be sure.
95 2012-12-04 02:56:22 <gmaxwell> twice
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98 2012-12-04 02:57:45 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: ok, I didnt actually read the article, but, still...https everywhere...
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100 2012-12-04 03:02:48 <D34TH> jgarzik, :D pull req submitted
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103 2012-12-04 03:13:13 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well, see startssl... there are free certs now.
104 2012-12-04 03:14:19 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: for my IP address? :p
105 2012-12-04 03:14:32 <gmaxwell> hahah
106 2012-12-04 03:14:40 <gmaxwell> technically you can have a cert with an IP address.
107 2012-12-04 03:14:47 <gmaxwell> I bet some moron CA would issue it too.
108 2012-12-04 03:16:23 <Luke-Jr> <.<
109 2012-12-04 03:22:46 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: well do you think about... if a hard-fork-update were required anyway, adding 8 bytes to TxIn serializations to include the value of the TxOut being spent?
110 2012-12-04 03:24:02 <etotheipi_> or is that too much of a hard change?
111 2012-12-04 03:25:11 <weex> etotheipi_: < hasha> is there a btc Armory channel?
112 2012-12-04 03:25:21 <weex> from #bitcoin
113 2012-12-04 03:25:41 <etotheipi_> weex: hmm... maybe I should start one...
114 2012-12-04 03:25:55 <etotheipi_> but I don't spend that much time on IRC
115 2012-12-04 03:26:14 <etotheipi_> I guess that wouldn't stop other people from chit-chatting about it without me, though :)
116 2012-12-04 03:26:14 <weex> yeah, i know how that goes
117 2012-12-04 03:26:42 <weex> started a channel #CoinDL and just put a bot in it today
118 2012-12-04 03:27:07 <hasha> yes you should start one :)
119 2012-12-04 03:27:15 <weex> make a bitcoin wiki lookup command for said bot
120 2012-12-04 03:27:29 <etotheipi_> hmm... I don't know anything about it
121 2012-12-04 03:27:29 <weex> so many development distractions :)
122 2012-12-04 03:28:21 <hasha> irc is one huge distraction
123 2012-12-04 03:28:32 <etotheipi_> hasha: that's exactly why I don't spend much time on it
124 2012-12-04 03:28:52 <etotheipi_> my productivity went up quite a bit after I closed the IRC window (instead of minimizing it)
125 2012-12-04 03:29:27 <hasha> the &
126 2012-12-04 03:30:26 <etotheipi_> so is it easy to setup an IRC bot?
127 2012-12-04 03:30:35 <weex> yeah about 30 mins tops
128 2012-12-04 03:30:38 <weex> i used phenny
129 2012-12-04 03:30:43 <weex> python
130 2012-12-04 03:30:56 <etotheipi_> ...I like python :)
131 2012-12-04 03:30:58 <weex> then moddd the wikipedia module to point at en.bitcoin.it
132 2012-12-04 03:31:51 <weex> i'm thinking of a module to query coindl or try to buy something
133 2012-12-04 03:32:12 <weex> probably better off working on the web interface or an api though
134 2012-12-04 03:32:27 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
135 2012-12-04 03:32:33 <hasha> i have a Amory question.. i just pulled down .85-beta and tried to import a backup of my wallet made with bitcoin-qt 0.7.1...
136 2012-12-04 03:32:48 andrew12- has joined
137 2012-12-04 03:32:50 <hasha> after scanning it for some time, it didnt actually open it
138 2012-12-04 03:32:56 <etotheipi_> hasha: Armory doesn't support importing wallets from bitcoin-qt
139 2012-12-04 03:33:03 <etotheipi_> it used to, before they switched to compressed public keys
140 2012-12-04 03:33:06 <hasha> ah, that explains it
141 2012-12-04 03:33:15 <hasha> thanks
142 2012-12-04 03:33:19 <etotheipi_> I never got around to upgrading it (but will soon)
143 2012-12-04 03:33:42 <etotheipi_> (I'm making a new wallet format with that in mind... I want users to be able to do it, I just didn't want to touch my rock-solid, thoroughly-tested wallet code)
144 2012-12-04 03:34:06 <hasha> i might have missed that on the site :( sorry if im asking a idiot question
145 2012-12-04 03:34:15 <etotheipi_> Nope, not an idiot question
146 2012-12-04 03:34:23 <etotheipi_> I *should* be more explicit about that
147 2012-12-04 03:34:25 <weex> etotheipi_: are you doing another funding round?
148 2012-12-04 03:34:32 <etotheipi_> weex: I wasn't planning on it
149 2012-12-04 03:35:17 <weex> cool, it's a good model though if it works
150 2012-12-04 03:35:23 <etotheipi_> it felt kind of beggar-y the first time around, and even though it was successful, I think I even stated that I wasn't going to come back for funding later
151 2012-12-04 03:36:00 <weex> ahh i see
152 2012-12-04 03:36:20 <etotheipi_> I'm pretty happy working 30 hrs per week at my normal job, and comfortable with the income stream
153 2012-12-04 03:36:43 <hasha> like anyone who goes to see venture capitalists... first they make you feel bad, then take 80% of your company :)
154 2012-12-04 03:36:45 <etotheipi_> and maybe I'll find a way to make some money from Armory itself, without being to intrusive
155 2012-12-04 03:37:19 <etotheipi_> or maybe some VC will come find me and give me an offer I can't refuse :)
156 2012-12-04 03:37:32 <hasha> an angel investor is always nice too
157 2012-12-04 03:37:33 meLon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
158 2012-12-04 03:37:47 <etotheipi_> but I have every intention on keeping Armory 90%+ free
159 2012-12-04 03:38:00 <etotheipi_> if anything, only charge for the really advanced features
160 2012-12-04 03:38:10 <etotheipi_> (most of which haven't been written yet)
161 2012-12-04 03:38:12 meLon has joined
162 2012-12-04 03:38:25 <weex> enterprise features
163 2012-12-04 03:39:03 <weex> integrate with active directory
164 2012-12-04 03:39:30 <weex> IIS + Bitcoin = pure magic :P
165 2012-12-04 03:39:59 <etotheipi_> interesting...
166 2012-12-04 03:40:30 <etotheipi_> I don't know for sure which way to go with it... I kinda just want to implement everything, and have people donate enough regularly so I don't have to work... but I doubt that's going to happen :)
167 2012-12-04 03:42:13 <hasha> could happen. if it turns into the default go-to app
168 2012-12-04 03:43:18 <etotheipi_> I'm very hesitant to go towards the paid-product model... then I have "obligations" to my "customers"
169 2012-12-04 03:44:32 <etotheipi_> even if it's only for a fraction of the users
170 2012-12-04 03:48:18 <weex> yeah keeping it free is cool. someone can always develop on it for some commercial needs
171 2012-12-04 03:50:23 <etotheipi_> I thought of a fun way to charge for features if I needed to though: "This feature will be enabled when there are 1 BTC worth of transfers to the Armory address in your combined wallet history"
172 2012-12-04 03:50:45 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
173 2012-12-04 03:50:58 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: import other people's pubkeys. :P
174 2012-12-04 03:51:09 <etotheipi_> and then a relatively easy way to bypass it
175 2012-12-04 03:51:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: thoughts on wallet cache informationâ stuff that we might want to have on disk about the wallet but doesn't really need to persistâ and how that should interact with append only wallet stuff in the future?
176 2012-12-04 03:51:57 <etotheipi_> I dont' want to put in some kind of draconian DRM, and I know people will be selfish and bypass it anyway, I can at least be good-humored about it (which gains me fans), and simply make the payment option the path of least resistance
177 2012-12-04 03:52:02 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
178 2012-12-04 03:52:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: e.g. I'd be hesitant to keep a union structure for taint tracking in memory because holding all addresses in memory might be problematic. But I don't like the idea of putting the relationships in the wallet because it'll generate a bunch of writes that would be kinda ugly on an append only wallet.
179 2012-12-04 03:52:52 <etotheipi_> "Send 1 BTC to enable this feature, or change the "IAmASelfishJerk" variable from False to True in the ~/.armory/settings.txt file"
180 2012-12-04 03:53:31 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: the thin line you walk there is that people should ask themselves what other 'antifeatures' are in the software.
181 2012-12-04 03:54:07 <gmaxwell> (of course they should always ask thatâ but they don't :P)
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185 2012-12-04 03:58:41 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: I bet a "send 0.01 BTC to support Armory development" checkbox on your send-coins dialogs (not checked by default) would get used.
186 2012-12-04 04:00:34 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: the miners authors seem to have not had great results with the 'direct $x% of your mining to support development'
187 2012-12-04 04:01:10 <gmaxwell> (poor enough that e.g. cgminer has dropped it)
188 2012-12-04 04:01:32 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: you might be right, everybody might be selfish...
189 2012-12-04 04:02:11 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I wonder if people feel differently about a service like a mining pool versus a product they download and run.
190 2012-12-04 04:03:29 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: there's already a button on the send-dialog that adds a 1 BTC pre-filled donation to their current transactions
191 2012-12-04 04:03:58 <etotheipi_> I've had users tell me they use it
192 2012-12-04 04:04:28 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: don't you know if they use it? You get the donations, right?
193 2012-12-04 04:04:32 GMP has joined
194 2012-12-04 04:04:44 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: well, that *was* a program they download and run. it switched to the author's pool/account for N% of the time
195 2012-12-04 04:07:19 <gmaxwell> Well. there are other factorsâ the switching code was not bug free at all times, and armory users aren't miner users.
196 2012-12-04 04:07:31 <gavinandresen> OK. I never liked donations as a sustainable business model....
197 2012-12-04 04:07:48 Gladamas has joined
198 2012-12-04 04:09:14 <gavinandresen> (I was pleasantly surprised to see how many BTC the Foundation has received in donations, though)
199 2012-12-04 04:11:39 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: I get a lot of donations, but I don't know if those donations were made because of the button
200 2012-12-04 04:12:01 <etotheipi_> or rather, I don't know how many of those donations would've been made anyway, if the button wasn't there
201 2012-12-04 04:12:34 <etotheipi_> I could always put the "donate" button as a bigger button around/behind the send button, so a slight misclick is a win for me :)
202 2012-12-04 04:12:53 <gavinandresen> A marketing person would have told you to use a separate donation address for every donation "channel" (I probably just got that marketingspeak wrong)
203 2012-12-04 04:14:53 <gavinandresen> They'd also want you to experiment with making the suggested donation amount different (at random), to see if asking for 0.09 BTC got you 20 times the donations as asking for 1.0 ...
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206 2012-12-04 04:26:58 <weex> have the actual send button bounce around in a field of donate
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215 2012-12-04 04:57:28 <Luke-Jr> someone just tried to send 0.03 BTC to anyone-can-spend? O.o
216 2012-12-04 04:57:28 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: where am I getting the random data? hah! That would imply I tested it!
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218 2012-12-04 04:57:45 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: TX signing is at Linus Stage #3: it builds
219 2012-12-04 04:58:34 * jgarzik was thinking about generating some keys, then creating some test data for test_bitcoin in bitcoin.git: [private key, serialized TX unsigned, serialized TX signed]
220 2012-12-04 04:58:57 <jgarzik> then import that into picocoin.git, once it's working in bitcoin.git
221 2012-12-04 04:59:09 <jgarzik> there are a few signing tests, but they are all procedural
222 2012-12-04 04:59:18 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I only asked because the source of random data is on my mental checklist for very easy to get wrong and terrible wrt signing. (esp because a failure is invisible until someone steals all your money)
223 2012-12-04 05:00:37 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: does the aforementioned triple sound ok to you?
224 2012-12-04 05:08:52 molec has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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226 2012-12-04 05:10:25 <gmaxwell> signing is not deterministic with plain ECDSA, which might frustrate your tests. :P
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228 2012-12-04 05:19:11 <ByronJohnson> .u'e ba'o toseikrefu se'u tolmo'i lonu barda fa lo ve zukrai zmadu be fo la jbobau
229 2012-12-04 05:19:24 <ByronJohnson> Sorry, wrong channel.
230 2012-12-04 05:22:21 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: really? not even with the same private key?
231 2012-12-04 05:22:29 <jgarzik> and input hash
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233 2012-12-04 05:26:25 <gmaxwell> Correct!
234 2012-12-04 05:27:21 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: ecdsa needs a random numbers. And woe to you if you reuse a random number or choice it too non-uniformly.
235 2012-12-04 05:28:25 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
236 2012-12-04 05:28:34 <gmaxwell> Result: total private key recovery. This can be fixed by generating the random number as H(message || secret data) ... as ed25519 specifies. but you need a secret for that...
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240 2012-12-04 05:33:45 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: hmmmm
241 2012-12-04 05:33:57 * jgarzik starts thinking about PRNGs and seeds
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243 2012-12-04 05:38:37 <gmaxwell> you need to use a CSPRNG initilized from /dev/(u)random or the like. Openssl has randomhandling magic for you. (unless you're on debian :P)
244 2012-12-04 05:38:48 <gmaxwell> randomness*
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247 2012-12-04 05:42:20 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I'm talking about an artificial environment that produces repeatable tests
248 2012-12-04 05:42:24 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: not normal signing
249 2012-12-04 05:43:42 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: e.g. maybe the tests can provide [prng seed, private key (full privkey, not secret), unsigned TX, signed TX]
250 2012-12-04 05:44:11 <jgarzik> and test that [seed, privkey, unsigned TX] yields [signed TX]
251 2012-12-04 05:44:43 <jgarzik> a bit PRNG-specific, but should be repeatable
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303 2012-12-04 09:23:01 <sipa> gmaxwell: how do you mean slower... i didn't change anything!
304 2012-12-04 09:23:33 <sipa> just cosmetical... oh and 128 as batch limit
305 2012-12-04 09:24:59 <sipa> gmaxwell: about data in memory for wallets... i wouldn't bother for now! as we keep everything in memory whatsoever already
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317 2012-12-04 10:05:03 <doublec> ByronJohnson: xu do tavla bau la lojban
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353 2012-12-04 12:28:19 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: new 3 TB drive "Device does not support SMART"
354 2012-12-04 12:28:57 <sipa> Luke-Jr: connected how?
355 2012-12-04 12:29:09 <Luke-Jr> sipa: SATA of some sort
356 2012-12-04 12:31:21 <Luke-Jr> looks like passing -d sat fixes it
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358 2012-12-04 12:40:26 denisx has joined
359 2012-12-04 12:56:21 <Jouke> jgarzik: I get an error while trying to create a new wallet in picocoin http://pastebin.com/dbdz8YeY
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363 2012-12-04 13:09:04 <Luke-Jr> 190 Airflow_Temperature_Cel 0x0022 037 031 045 Old_age Always FAILING_NOW 63 (0 87 69 24 0)
364 2012-12-04 13:18:56 <Luke-Jr> scary :/
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377 2012-12-04 13:50:50 <BitDev> hi all, i gave a problem... my Ecdsa private key is 279 bytes long and public key is 65 bytes long... but in wiki i found that bitcoin private key length is 32 bytes... what i am doing wrong?
378 2012-12-04 13:51:31 <sipa> nothing
379 2012-12-04 13:51:54 <sipa> OpenSSL's serialized private keys are 279 bytes indeed, but they contain a lot of redundant information
380 2012-12-04 13:52:13 <sipa> including the field parameters, the curve information, the public key, and the private parameter itself
381 2012-12-04 13:52:41 <sipa> in most cases, we're only interested in the private parameter as all the rest is either fixed, or derivable from the private parameter
382 2012-12-04 13:53:04 <BitDev> how to get only private key?
383 2012-12-04 13:53:21 <BitDev> and public key length must be 65 bytes long?
384 2012-12-04 13:53:39 <sipa> uncompressed public keys are 65 bytes
385 2012-12-04 13:55:06 <BitDev> to generate bitcoin address i must use uncompressed public key? (here: Version concatenated with RIPEMD-160(SHA-256(public key)))
386 2012-12-04 13:55:09 <BitDev> &
387 2012-12-04 13:55:10 <BitDev> ?
388 2012-12-04 13:56:57 <kinlo> do not think of compressed keys like you think of zip files. Compressed keys are just a different way of writing it so it takes less space but they are directly useable
389 2012-12-04 13:56:59 <BitDev> and, Version = 1 byte of 0 (zero); on the test network, this is 1 byte of 111, - for testnet this value will be one byte with value 3 and for real network 1 byte with value 0?
390 2012-12-04 13:57:21 <kinlo> afaik you can use either an uncompresser or compressed public key to generate the bitcoin address
391 2012-12-04 13:57:40 <BitDev> to calculate bitcoin address what kind of public key i must to use?
392 2012-12-04 13:57:46 <BitDev> ow
393 2012-12-04 13:57:50 <kinlo> the public key
394 2012-12-04 13:57:50 <BitDev> great
395 2012-12-04 13:58:02 <BitDev> and how to compress public key?
396 2012-12-04 13:58:42 <sipa> if you're using OpenSSL, by setting a flag on the EC_KEY structure
397 2012-12-04 13:59:29 <sipa> from bitcoind's key.cpp:
398 2012-12-04 13:59:31 <sipa> EC_KEY_set_conv_form(pkey, fCompressed ? POINT_CONVERSION_COMPRESSED : POINT_CONVERSION_UNCOMPRESSED);
399 2012-12-04 14:00:07 dvide has joined
400 2012-12-04 14:00:32 <BitDev> thnx and one more question... for testing purpose i want to export public key in format that other client like Armory - how i can do this?
401 2012-12-04 14:02:27 <sipa> check how Armory exports public keys; i have no clue
402 2012-12-04 14:06:43 <BitDev> and how Bitcoin-Qt can import private key?
403 2012-12-04 14:06:57 <BitDev> in compressed form or uncompressed?
404 2012-12-04 14:07:15 gavinandresen has joined
405 2012-12-04 14:07:20 <sipa> both
406 2012-12-04 14:07:45 <sipa> see the importprivkey RPC
407 2012-12-04 14:08:24 <BitDev> thnx i will
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424 2012-12-04 14:54:36 * helo notes that "show qrcode" isn't working in head
425 2012-12-04 14:58:30 <jaromil> Jouke, jgarzik: looks like picocoin would benefit from a valgrind shave as much as I'll do from a SPA next weekend
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444 2012-12-04 15:40:40 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
445 2012-12-04 15:40:46 <gribble> timed out
446 2012-12-04 15:40:55 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
447 2012-12-04 15:41:00 <gribble> timed out
448 2012-12-04 15:43:41 <BlueMatt> 210875
449 2012-12-04 15:43:55 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
450 2012-12-04 15:45:34 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, 210876
451 2012-12-04 15:45:54 <BlueMatt> hmm, still not here
452 2012-12-04 15:46:22 <phantomcircuit> i thought we were counting
453 2012-12-04 15:46:26 * phantomcircuit lols
454 2012-12-04 15:46:27 <BlueMatt> ...
455 2012-12-04 15:46:32 <phantomcircuit> ahah
456 2012-12-04 15:46:41 <sipa> well there *are* 210876 blocks
457 2012-12-04 15:46:42 <phantomcircuit> sorry i couldn't help myself
458 2012-12-04 15:47:02 <BlueMatt> sipa: you lie
459 2012-12-04 15:47:13 <phantomcircuit> he's technically correct
460 2012-12-04 15:47:20 <phantomcircuit> genesis block is block 0 iirc
461 2012-12-04 15:47:24 <sipa> correct
462 2012-12-04 15:47:25 <BlueMatt> ...
463 2012-12-04 15:47:38 <phantomcircuit> and as we all know
464 2012-12-04 15:47:45 <phantomcircuit> technically correct is the only kind of correct
465 2012-12-04 15:48:02 <sipa> technically, technically correct is the only technical kind of correct
466 2012-12-04 15:48:22 <epscy> correctification
467 2012-12-04 15:48:43 <BlueMatt> correction: technically cs people should count from 0, so...
468 2012-12-04 15:49:14 <sipa> count from 0 when identifying elements, but use the total number when counting
469 2012-12-04 15:49:32 <sipa> PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND
470 2012-12-04 15:49:33 <BlueMatt> yes, and ,,bc,blocks doesnt really specify which ;)
471 2012-12-04 15:49:36 <gribble> 210686
472 2012-12-04 15:49:36 <sipa> 6987 pieterw 20 0 1555m 581m 109m R 988 1.8 15:47.52 bitcoind
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474 2012-12-04 15:49:44 <BlueMatt> damnit gribble
475 2012-12-04 15:50:47 <phantomcircuit> ahah
476 2012-12-04 15:50:47 <phantomcircuit> that was great
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482 2012-12-04 16:07:26 <MrTiggr> Quote of the Week: "All programmers are playwrights and all computers are lousy actors." --Unknown
483 2012-12-04 16:10:02 <edcba_> playwrights ?
484 2012-12-04 16:11:13 <edcba_> would have s/playwrights/playrihts/ & s/Unknown/A programmer/
485 2012-12-04 16:11:35 <edcba_> fuck i made more errors than i wanted
486 2012-12-04 16:11:36 <epscy> playrihts?
487 2012-12-04 16:11:53 <epscy> it is playwright, i'm fairly sure
488 2012-12-04 16:11:54 sgornick has joined
489 2012-12-04 16:12:12 <edcba_> yes but would have been funnier with a fault
490 2012-12-04 16:13:55 panzerfaust is now known as panzer
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497 2012-12-04 16:36:21 <jgarzik> Jouke, jaromil: a bug introduced late last night. Just fixed. picocoin actually gets valgrind treatment on a somewhat regular basis.
498 2012-12-04 16:38:38 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
499 2012-12-04 16:42:20 ciscoftw has joined
500 2012-12-04 16:43:05 <ciscoftw> how is it that satoshidice is able to send 0.00000001 without a transaction fee?
501 2012-12-04 16:43:35 <Eliel> jgarzik: do you think libccoin/picocoin would be suitable for mobile devices?
502 2012-12-04 16:43:56 <jgarzik> Eliel: when complete, sure
503 2012-12-04 16:44:19 <kinlo> ciscoftw: they do pay fee's
504 2012-12-04 16:44:41 <kinlo> ciscoftw: in fact, they account for most fee's in current blocks I think
505 2012-12-04 16:44:50 <ciscoftw> how would i be able to see that via bitcoind
506 2012-12-04 16:44:59 <kinlo> see what?
507 2012-12-04 16:45:35 <ciscoftw> that a transaction fee was included into a transaction
508 2012-12-04 16:45:52 <Eliel> jgarzik: if the target public release date is May 2013, do you think it'd make sense to start building an app on top of libccoin?
509 2012-12-04 16:46:23 <jgarzik> Eliel: sure
510 2012-12-04 16:46:40 <ciscoftw> ./bitcoind getrawtransaction, returns the raw transaction, but i cant determine if a fee was included or not?
511 2012-12-04 16:46:45 <jgarzik> Eliel: just make sure your mobile platform supports C development
512 2012-12-04 16:46:51 <Eliel> We're thinking of getting started building a bitcoin wallet app for Jolla (as well as Meego/Maemo)
513 2012-12-04 16:47:00 <kinlo> ciscoftw: that's not so easy
514 2012-12-04 16:47:05 <sipa> ciscoftw: transactions don't know that
515 2012-12-04 16:47:07 <kinlo> ciscoftw: first get raw transaction
516 2012-12-04 16:47:14 <kinlo> ciscoftw: then decode that transaction
517 2012-12-04 16:47:14 <Eliel> We might have a shot at getting it included in the official Jolla.
518 2012-12-04 16:47:28 <kinlo> ciscoftw: then add all output's to see how much coins have been reassigned
519 2012-12-04 16:47:46 <kinlo> ciscoftw: then do getrawtransaction and decode transaction on all input transactions
520 2012-12-04 16:47:52 <kinlo> count how much the input was total
521 2012-12-04 16:47:57 <kinlo> substract those 2 values
522 2012-12-04 16:48:01 <kinlo> and you have the fee payed
523 2012-12-04 16:48:27 <ciscoftw> so the output im seeing is hex format? looks like its asci...
524 2012-12-04 16:48:50 <kinlo> try the decodetransaction function from the bitcoin client
525 2012-12-04 16:48:56 <kinlo> and feed it the raw data
526 2012-12-04 16:50:34 <ciscoftw> kinlo: fucking awesome!!!
527 2012-12-04 16:50:51 <kinlo> yes bitcoin is well designed and awesome :p
528 2012-12-04 16:51:00 <ciscoftw> many thax for your insight
529 2012-12-04 16:51:04 <kinlo> np
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537 2012-12-04 17:25:56 <Jouke> jgarzik: now "picocoin help" segfaults
538 2012-12-04 17:26:19 <Jouke> I was able to create a wallet
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551 2012-12-04 17:37:23 <jgarzik> Jouke: reproduced
552 2012-12-04 17:37:43 EPiSKiNG- has quit ()
553 2012-12-04 17:37:44 <jgarzik> This is my punishment for encouraging third party submissions ;p
554 2012-12-04 17:39:00 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
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556 2012-12-04 17:43:00 <jgarzik> Jouke: fix pushed
557 2012-12-04 17:45:19 TD has joined
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560 2012-12-04 17:48:14 <TD> hello
561 2012-12-04 17:52:31 <BlueMatt> hey TD
562 2012-12-04 17:55:23 <sipa> TD: seen #2060 and #2061? :)
563 2012-12-04 17:57:11 <TD> cool
564 2012-12-04 17:57:17 <TD> i saw 2060 last night but didn't look at it yet
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566 2012-12-04 17:57:52 <TD> shouldn't finishing ultraprune be the priority though?
567 2012-12-04 17:58:02 <TD> it still isn't shippable due to lack of upgrade support, i thought?
568 2012-12-04 17:58:38 <sipa> indeed, and other things, but i got tired of waiting hours for synchronization
569 2012-12-04 17:59:05 <BlueMatt> so add a [temporary] checkpoint on 210000?
570 2012-12-04 17:59:14 <sipa> just benchmarked a full import from network in 37 minutes
571 2012-12-04 17:59:14 daybyter has joined
572 2012-12-04 17:59:29 <TD> ok
573 2012-12-04 17:59:46 <sipa> BlueMatt: this helps more :)
574 2012-12-04 18:01:58 <TD> so for bloom filtering, my understanding is that the C++ branch has your new merkle block encodings already merged, but it isn't reflected in the BIP draft or in the java impl yet
575 2012-12-04 18:02:03 <TD> just trying to ensure i have full state
576 2012-12-04 18:03:12 <BlueMatt> TD: another important thing to make pimping spv clients on bitcoin.org a better idea is to add upgradeable support to upgrade to full clients
577 2012-12-04 18:03:40 <BlueMatt> TD: correct, well, I have a java impl, just not well tested or pushed yet
578 2012-12-04 18:04:24 <BlueMatt> TD: on that note, I have a slightly different db format for the h2fullprunedblockstore thinggy that supports future upgrading that I'd like to have in before there are any releases (even if none of the upgrade stuff is there)
579 2012-12-04 18:04:53 <TD> ok
580 2012-12-04 18:04:58 <TD> sure
581 2012-12-04 18:05:01 <TD> there's no hurry to release
582 2012-12-04 18:05:14 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
583 2012-12-04 18:05:16 <BlueMatt> just kept forgetting to mention it, so I figured I might as well while I was thinking of it
584 2012-12-04 18:05:46 <TD> alright
585 2012-12-04 18:05:58 molecular has joined
586 2012-12-04 18:06:05 <TD> i'm not sure upgrading support matters that much. if you're going to run a full node, it should be a conscious decision you made to make a little bit of effort
587 2012-12-04 18:06:35 <TD> going from SPV to full client means fully downloading and rebuilding the chain anyway
588 2012-12-04 18:06:44 <TD> so switching to a different bit of software is hardly a big deal compared to that
589 2012-12-04 18:07:04 <sipa> i'm not convinced it should be a conscious decision
590 2012-12-04 18:07:07 <BlueMatt> TD: yes, but support for it in-client via a nice little checkbox (and ample description) is really nice, and imho, really allows us to say everyone can use one of these clients...
591 2012-12-04 18:07:29 <BlueMatt> TD: not if your wallet is already somewhere and having to transfer it is a pain
592 2012-12-04 18:07:35 <sipa> it certainly shouldn't happen invisible to the user, or without choice
593 2012-12-04 18:07:37 <TD> well, i think having laptop users who constantly connect and disconnect isn't really helpful
594 2012-12-04 18:07:42 <BlueMatt> TD: making it painless is important, whether conscious or not
595 2012-12-04 18:07:53 <TD> BlueMatt: why would you need to stop using the SPV client? just run full node as an independent thing with no wallet
596 2012-12-04 18:08:21 <TD> i mean, if you run a full node, you should ideally at least know what you're doing, be willing to upgrade occasionally, have a non-firewalled connection, etc
597 2012-12-04 18:08:25 <TD> and ideally be running it on a server
598 2012-12-04 18:08:36 <BlueMatt> because people are going to be more willing to run a full node if they dont have to do anything (like run a second program)
599 2012-12-04 18:08:37 PK has joined
600 2012-12-04 18:08:46 <TD> think tor relay. having tor relays that appear and disappear randomly isn't that great. you want a bit more dedication than that
601 2012-12-04 18:09:02 <sipa> i wonder whether that isn't what we should aim for in the first place: make all wallet software SPV and SPV-only, and run full nodes as separate and perhaps system-wide daemons without wallet
602 2012-12-04 18:09:16 <BlueMatt> meh, having random disconnections/connections (as long as its not every second) isnt a big deal for us
603 2012-12-04 18:09:18 <sipa> which doesn't mean they can't use the same codebase
604 2012-12-04 18:09:21 <BlueMatt> at least, not as big as it is for tor
605 2012-12-04 18:09:37 <sipa> or that the client software could have a "spawn full node daemon" feature built-in
606 2012-12-04 18:10:18 <BlueMatt> sipa: as long as the spv client then just connects to the local full daemon, though...now we're just back at the wallet/block chain/etc process separation
607 2012-12-04 18:10:25 leotreasure has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
608 2012-12-04 18:10:33 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes, of course
609 2012-12-04 18:10:46 <sipa> if you run your own full node, you use that as a trusted single peer
610 2012-12-04 18:11:01 <TD> BlueMatt: it doesn't help much either though.
611 2012-12-04 18:11:36 <BlueMatt> TD: sure it does, take any given peer that was running an spv node and upgrade it, even if its not online 24/7, much better for the network
612 2012-12-04 18:11:55 <BlueMatt> (and connection turnover isnt bad anyway, sipa was looking at doing it randomly just for overall network health anyway)
613 2012-12-04 18:16:28 <BitDev> can some one help me, my public key is 33 bytes long and i want calculate my address... first of all i do is RIPEMD-160(SHA-256(public key)) then i get check sum like this sha256(sha256([0, hash160])) first 4 bytes and then i make base58encode( [hash160, 4 byte checksum]) and its not working - what i am doing wrong?
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615 2012-12-04 18:19:37 <TD> BlueMatt: only a little bit better, and it degrades the users experience if they aren't ready for it
616 2012-12-04 18:19:54 <TD> i mean if you're using your computer why would you want it churning away 24/7 using cpu and disk iops
617 2012-12-04 18:20:14 <TD> encouraging users to run full nodes on their crappy low-specced macbook airs or whatever, just limits our scalability in future
618 2012-12-04 18:20:42 <BlueMatt> thats an argument for it being a conscious decision, not to avoid encouraging it in general
619 2012-12-04 18:21:17 <BlueMatt> even a low-speced modernish laptop can run a full node once its caught up reasonably well
620 2012-12-04 18:21:23 <TD> yes, now
621 2012-12-04 18:21:28 <TD> what if tx volumes double again?
622 2012-12-04 18:21:41 <sipa> well, but now is important
623 2012-12-04 18:21:42 <BlueMatt> I I dont forsee us outgrowing moore's law any time soon?
624 2012-12-04 18:22:09 <sipa> we can't just look at the future we want and say: let's just dobwhat we think will be necessary then
625 2012-12-04 18:22:18 <BlueMatt> sd did it once (sort of) but our average is still pretty low across the growth period (ie excluding the early days)
626 2012-12-04 18:22:42 <sipa> if the usrr experience is bad right now, this may have an impact on the future in general
627 2012-12-04 18:24:10 kiceek has quit (Quit: Leaving)
628 2012-12-04 18:24:11 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"])
629 2012-12-04 18:25:58 <TD> yeah, it's hard to know what future growth looks like (if nay)
630 2012-12-04 18:26:00 <TD> any
631 2012-12-04 18:26:30 <TD> but, if tx volume does increase and suddenly half our nodes vanish because they were run by people who weren't really interested in doing so, that'd just compound the issue
632 2012-12-04 18:26:37 <BlueMatt> (part of the upgrade logic could, ofc, also include a downgrade logic)
633 2012-12-04 18:26:43 <TD> i think it should be quite easy to get people to run nodes on spare machines, workstations, servers etc
634 2012-12-04 18:26:47 <TD> tor doesn't seem to have an issue with it
635 2012-12-04 18:27:33 <BlueMatt> yes, we should continue to encourage that, but there is no harm in looking for more from people who run upgrade-able nodes
636 2012-12-04 18:28:18 <BlueMatt> in any case, this discussion seems premature, I think we all agree upgradeablity is a nice feature, but lets wait to discuss the finer points until there is an implementation we can frame the discussion around :)
637 2012-12-04 18:29:40 * TD -> home
638 2012-12-04 18:29:47 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
639 2012-12-04 18:29:48 <BlueMatt> see ya
640 2012-12-04 18:29:56 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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645 2012-12-04 18:44:52 <jgarzik> heh
646 2012-12-04 18:45:00 <jgarzik> a little matter of a missing comma, and boom, crash
647 2012-12-04 18:45:30 <jgarzik> just proves the one should _always_ put a trailing comma in C lists
648 2012-12-04 18:45:37 <jgarzik> even if it's the last item in an array
649 2012-12-04 18:49:53 <gmaxwell> 09:45 < TD> it still isn't shippable due to lack of upgrade support, i thought?
650 2012-12-04 18:50:06 <gmaxwell> It isn't shippable because its still too risky to the network.
651 2012-12-04 18:51:31 <gmaxwell> I just hit coins corruption a few days that we're not sure of the cause, though there is one fix that might have resolved it. But since I can't reproduce it we're can be sure. It's simply going to take time.
652 2012-12-04 18:52:23 <gmaxwell> We also have the reports of leveldb simply failing on win32 after unclean shutdowns which I don't think anyone has really looked into yet.
653 2012-12-04 18:53:05 <gmaxwell> (considering that BDB now seems to have the same problem ... well, its still a major issue even if similar problems now exist in 0.7.1 :( )
654 2012-12-04 18:54:45 <sipa> gmaxwell: + reports of high CPU/memory usage, resolved by restarting
655 2012-12-04 18:54:49 <sipa> and crashing
656 2012-12-04 18:55:07 <sipa> i really don't feel confortable with the state of the software on windows now
657 2012-12-04 18:57:00 <jgarzik> does the block index receive a lot of _updates_ (as opposed to new records)?
658 2012-12-04 18:57:21 * helo makes a note to install next-test on his w8 box at home
659 2012-12-04 18:58:21 rdponticelli has joined
660 2012-12-04 18:58:55 <jgarzik> I know the UTXO index receives a lot of updates. Block index seems like it would mainly append new records, lending itself to a flat file.
661 2012-12-04 19:04:07 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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669 2012-12-04 19:25:29 <sipa> jgarzik: it does get updates (location of undo data, which checks have been performed, ...)
670 2012-12-04 19:25:35 <sipa> jgarzik: but not many
671 2012-12-04 19:26:04 <sipa> if you'd want an append-only format, probably have records with initial header data, and records of type 'update state of block Y to X"
672 2012-12-04 19:29:21 <gmaxwell> You could make it almost never get updates by deferring writing the best block.
673 2012-12-04 19:30:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: sure
674 2012-12-04 19:30:41 <sipa> but you don't want to write just the best blocks
675 2012-12-04 19:31:45 <gmaxwell> I mean that second best blocks are reorgs out much less often than the best ones.
676 2012-12-04 19:32:30 <sipa> sure, you could avoid it most of the time, but you'd still need a format that supports changing states
677 2012-12-04 19:42:09 <jgarzik> nod
678 2012-12-04 19:42:26 <jgarzik> an append-only format with "update X" records would work
679 2012-12-04 19:43:53 xorgate has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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684 2012-12-04 19:48:20 <midnightmagic> does anyone have any experience with hudson?
685 2012-12-04 19:50:30 <sipa> jgarzik: if you use things like delayed writing, you can even gain significant amount of space (not really relevant compared to block and coindb size, but maybe useful for SPV nodes): if you have multi-block records, you can drop the hashPrev, just store timediff (with a varint, 1-2 bytes is enough), and drop bits
686 2012-12-04 19:51:28 <jgarzik> sipa: true, but I doubt such compression gains much additional value over a more simplistic design
687 2012-12-04 19:52:11 <jgarzik> might gain more if used for CCoins index
688 2012-12-04 19:52:14 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
689 2012-12-04 19:52:28 <sipa> ?
690 2012-12-04 19:54:39 <midnightmagic> er.. nevermind the hudson question, just realised it "is" jenkins.
691 2012-12-04 19:55:16 owowo has joined
692 2012-12-04 19:55:26 <owowo> !mtgo woops
693 2012-12-04 19:55:27 <gribble> Error: "mtgo" is not a valid command.
694 2012-12-04 19:55:27 <BCBot2`> owowo: Error: "mtgo" is not a valid command.
695 2012-12-04 19:55:33 <sipa> jgarzik: do you have any idea how much effort it took to squeeze the bits out of CCoins already? :p
696 2012-12-04 19:55:49 <owowo> sry,.. wrong channel...
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710 2012-12-04 20:39:13 <jaromil> ACK for the valgrinding picocoin already, off my TODO list (which anyway looks more like a collection of ex-voto on a Dias del Muertos night)
711 2012-12-04 20:42:08 ThomasV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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713 2012-12-04 20:50:14 <Diapolo> what's the plan for 0.7.2?
714 2012-12-04 20:51:24 <sipa> there are only 1.5 gitian builds for 0.7 .2rc2
715 2012-12-04 20:52:30 <sipa> (one by me, and half of onr by luke)
716 2012-12-04 20:53:17 <Diapolo> was wondering as there was no more discussion in the Github thread ...
717 2012-12-04 20:53:46 <Diapolo> seems some of the other core devs are a little rare currently?
718 2012-12-04 20:54:53 <sipa> yes, an endangered species we are
719 2012-12-04 20:56:21 <Diapolo> :-P at least you are pushing
720 2012-12-04 20:57:01 <D34TH> needs more 1549
721 2012-12-04 20:59:38 <D34TH> oh yea, add -benchmark
722 2012-12-04 20:59:39 <D34TH> :D
723 2012-12-04 21:00:33 <Diapolo> od1n makes me want to scream (Github issue) ^^ argh
724 2012-12-04 21:00:56 <Diapolo> agreed, add -benchmark can't hurt
725 2012-12-04 21:03:14 sta1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
726 2012-12-04 21:03:27 sta has joined
727 2012-12-04 21:09:07 <Luke-Jr> Diapolo: set up gitian so you can build!
728 2012-12-04 21:10:14 <Diapolo> I tried that once and found out the setup process was not that straight-forward
729 2012-12-04 21:10:21 <sipa> Luke-Jr: did you do a linux build yet?
730 2012-12-04 21:10:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: my gitian VM is only 32-bit
731 2012-12-04 21:10:40 <sipa> Diapolo: that's an understatement, unfortunately
732 2012-12-04 21:10:46 <sipa> Luke-Jr: why?
733 2012-12-04 21:11:14 <maaku> gmaxwell: if that extra gig of space is too valuable, then don't run a utxo-tree node for your miners
734 2012-12-04 21:11:38 <Luke-Jr> sipa: because I didn't expect it to demand 64-bit when I built it
735 2012-12-04 21:11:40 <maaku> the beauty of a meta-chain is its entirely optional
736 2012-12-04 21:11:54 <gmaxwell> maaku: ... then the utxo can't be normative and validated. And its not just an extra gig, its a ~doubling of the space a full node needs.
737 2012-12-04 21:12:03 <gmaxwell> Nope. If it's optional it's pointless.
738 2012-12-04 21:12:26 <D34TH> hmm
739 2012-12-04 21:12:28 <gmaxwell> If its correctness isn't enforced then there is no reason to trust it. Might as well just skip the hash tree structure entirely.
740 2012-12-04 21:12:30 <maaku> gmaxwell: by my calculations, it would be about a gig of storage
741 2012-12-04 21:12:36 <Diapolo> Luke-Jr: If someone is willing to write or extend the current how-to I'm fine with participating, but I can't even count the hours it took me to only setup a Qt / MinGW Build chain with all libs...
742 2012-12-04 21:12:38 <D34TH> i think im ready to propose another pullreq
743 2012-12-04 21:13:17 <Luke-Jr> Diapolo: 1. checkout gitian git code; 2. do something; 3. â?; 4. profit!
744 2012-12-04 21:13:25 <maaku> gmaxwell: i think you misunderstand--it's optionally either used or not, but if it is used its correctness is always enforced
745 2012-12-04 21:13:29 <gmaxwell> maaku: a gig of storage for the current chain? congrats you've increased the required space by 9x instead of the 2x I was assuming!
746 2012-12-04 21:13:45 <gmaxwell> maaku: if its correctness is enforced then you can't mine without it.
747 2012-12-04 21:13:58 <D34TH> pullreq 2073
748 2012-12-04 21:14:00 <Diapolo> Luke-jr: sorry? don't get it...
749 2012-12-04 21:14:03 <gmaxwell> (nor can you fully validate)
750 2012-12-04 21:14:04 <Luke-Jr> me either
751 2012-12-04 21:14:27 rlifchitz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
752 2012-12-04 21:14:28 <maaku> gmaxwell: it's a *meta-chain* it's not part of the block chain!
753 2012-12-04 21:14:41 <maaku> anyone can mine a bitcoin block without updating the meta chain
754 2012-12-04 21:15:15 <maaku> and the result would only be that the meta-chain's difficulty is correspondingly lower
755 2012-12-04 21:15:24 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
756 2012-12-04 21:15:37 <gmaxwell> maaku: Thats worthless. It doesn't actually provide security because there would be zero incentive to not lie in it.
757 2012-12-04 21:16:26 <maaku> miners who do merge-mine the meta-chain would validate it, and reject any blocks containing lies
758 2012-12-04 21:17:33 <gmaxwell> maaku: and the best that can give you is old data, which isn't useful because you need the current UTXO set. And worse, a short reorg of the secondary chain would make the real chain unvalidatable for nodes using the utxo set.
759 2012-12-04 21:19:15 <Diapolo> Luke-jr: I said I don't want to spend a whole lot of time setting up gitian, just because the documentation is not good. What you meant by profit?
760 2012-12-04 21:19:26 <maaku> gmaxwell: the meta-chain would be linked to a bitcoin chain, e.g. "this is that hash of the UTxO index for block #210100"--you then download the UTxO set, convert that into an ultra prune index, and then replay blocks from #210100 onward
761 2012-12-04 21:19:31 <maaku> a couple of blocks out of date isn't an issue
762 2012-12-04 21:19:49 slush has joined
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764 2012-12-04 21:21:10 <jgarzik> sipa: "might gain more", BTIM using diff-style techniques to store the CCoins index on disk, as a stream of new-record and update-record operations in append-only format
765 2012-12-04 21:21:39 <jgarzik> versus a diff-style format for the block index, versus simply storing new-record or update-whole-record operations for the block index
766 2012-12-04 21:21:53 <jgarzik> trying to think through the implications of dropping leveldb altogether ;p
767 2012-12-04 21:22:21 <sipa> ah
768 2012-12-04 21:23:06 <Diapolo> yet another db engine :)?
769 2012-12-04 21:24:44 <jaromil> nah he is talking about restructuring how data gets saved
770 2012-12-04 21:25:04 <jaromil> i'd say there is some gain in that direction for sure, not sure how much / worth
771 2012-12-04 21:25:09 <jaromil> sounds more like a filesystem actually
772 2012-12-04 21:26:47 <jaromil> the kind of stuff that, when made wrong, can make programmers go bonkers and killl their wife and shit
773 2012-12-04 21:28:16 <jgarzik> well if we face months of leveldb debugging, it is a pain
774 2012-12-04 21:28:25 <jgarzik> and our use case for block index is rather simple
775 2012-12-04 21:29:14 <jgarzik> we already load all of the block index into RAM
776 2012-12-04 21:29:59 <jgarzik> flat file is straightforward there
777 2012-12-04 21:30:08 <sipa> the only leveldb problem i've seen so far is on windows
778 2012-12-04 21:30:12 <jgarzik> that leaves the {TX hash} -> CCoins index
779 2012-12-04 21:30:47 <jgarzik> sipa: nod. leveldb is woefully under-tested on that platform in general, and that is a large userbase for bitcoin.
780 2012-12-04 21:30:59 <sipa> so it's easy
781 2012-12-04 21:31:03 <sipa> we just drop windows support :p
782 2012-12-04 21:31:08 <jgarzik> hah
783 2012-12-04 21:31:21 <sipa> let's ship a VM with bitcoin preinstalled
784 2012-12-04 21:31:42 <Diapolo> sipa: may a thunder strike your computer ... just NOW :-P
785 2012-12-04 21:31:44 <jgarzik> heh
786 2012-12-04 21:31:46 <sipa> probably cheaper in developer time than support windows :p
787 2012-12-04 21:32:08 <sipa> (i'm joking, if that wasn't clear)
788 2012-12-04 21:32:12 <Diapolo> it was :D
789 2012-12-04 21:32:23 <Diapolo> I hope you understood I was also joking ^^
790 2012-12-04 21:32:36 <sipa> well, the fact that it would be cheaper in developer time was serious, but the suggestion to drop windows wasn't :D
791 2012-12-04 21:33:07 <Diapolo> What's so bad about LevelDB and Win?
792 2012-12-04 21:34:26 <sipa> maybe nothing, but we've seen users with corrupted leveldb's on windows
793 2012-12-04 21:34:31 <sipa> and no where else
794 2012-12-04 21:34:52 <Diapolo> I never observed that yet...
795 2012-12-04 21:35:09 <sipa> well, ideally it shouldn't ever happen
796 2012-12-04 21:35:36 <sipa> but for example on the forum there was some user compaining it at some point used close to 1GB of RAM during IBD
797 2012-12-04 21:35:37 <Diapolo> indeed
798 2012-12-04 21:35:44 <sipa> which is also unexpected
799 2012-12-04 21:35:56 <sipa> and the windows leveldb uses a very different backend
800 2012-12-04 21:36:06 <Diapolo> the client process ate 1GB RAM? I need to take a look at that
801 2012-12-04 21:36:50 <Diapolo> (watch how much it need when I'm testing next IBD)
802 2012-12-04 21:36:54 <Diapolo> +s
803 2012-12-04 21:37:43 <jaromil> speaking of RAM, have you looked into redis?
804 2012-12-04 21:37:44 <sipa> jgarzik: well the requirement is very easy... bytearray to bytearray map with atomic updates :)
805 2012-12-04 21:39:25 <TD> jgarzik: leveldb is used in chrome, it's hardly untested. the issue is chrome uses a different platform mapping
806 2012-12-04 21:39:43 <maaku> i was about to suggest redis as well :)
807 2012-12-04 21:39:44 <sipa> chrome uses its own backend
808 2012-12-04 21:39:52 <TD> anyway, i don't think you're going to beat it with a custom implementation. if there are issues on windows, someone is just going to have to sit down and do some debugging with it
809 2012-12-04 21:40:03 <TD> well "backend" - you mean classes that implement file IO and threading
810 2012-12-04 21:40:13 <jgarzik> yes
811 2012-12-04 21:40:27 <jgarzik> IOW the "platform stuff" that runs on Windows and not Linux
812 2012-12-04 21:40:33 <Diapolo> if it's used in Chrome it's rather well tested on Windows no?
813 2012-12-04 21:40:41 <jgarzik> Diapolo: see what sipa said
814 2012-12-04 21:41:01 <Diapolo> I commented before proceeding to read further...
815 2012-12-04 21:41:02 <TD> chrome has its own OS abstraction layer that the leveldb integration there uses. if there's a corruption issue, it's likely to be some subtle detail of how file IO or threading is mapped to win32
816 2012-12-04 21:41:12 <jgarzik> yes
817 2012-12-04 21:41:12 <TD> ie, not in the actual leveldb code
818 2012-12-04 21:41:20 <sipa> yes, quite sure about that
819 2012-12-04 21:41:22 <jgarzik> a distinction without difference
820 2012-12-04 21:41:36 <jgarzik> it's filed under leveldb, since it's not bitcoin
821 2012-12-04 21:41:41 <sipa> we should look into upgrading to leveldb 1.7
822 2012-12-04 21:42:00 <jgarzik> a lot of LOC just for one index
823 2012-12-04 21:42:03 <TD> it can't really hurt
824 2012-12-04 21:42:21 <sipa> jgarzik: i think leveldb is quite small, compared so some other systems :)
825 2012-12-04 21:42:23 <TD> jgarzik: you could say the same about bigtable
826 2012-12-04 21:42:26 <sipa> in terms of lines of code
827 2012-12-04 21:42:51 <Diapolo> TD: any changelog link for me I love reading such stuff ^^
828 2012-12-04 21:43:39 <sipa> https://code.google.com/p/leveldb/downloads/detail?name=leveldb-1.7.0.tar.gz&can=2&q=
829 2012-12-04 21:43:48 <sipa> https://code.google.com/p/leveldb/downloads/detail?name=leveldb-1.6.0.tar.gz&can=2&q=
830 2012-12-04 21:44:13 <sipa> not much is changed, but it seems the build environment should be more flexible now
831 2012-12-04 21:44:28 <sipa> so we may less ad-hoc patches
832 2012-12-04 21:44:29 <jgarzik> I dunno, seems like you could do an index in less than 24kLOC
833 2012-12-04 21:45:40 <TD> sure. but it'll probably suck.
834 2012-12-04 21:45:42 <sipa> TD: i really wonder what awful experience you had with linux on the desktop - i really feel the opposite... i never expected it to become a competitor to mainstream desktops, but there are certainly more users now than 10y ago
835 2012-12-04 21:46:00 <TD> sipa: on all the graphs i've seen it never made it beyond 1%
836 2012-12-04 21:46:04 <TD> (of usage)
837 2012-12-04 21:46:06 <sipa> so?
838 2012-12-04 21:46:12 <TD> so that's not a successful product
839 2012-12-04 21:46:40 <Diapolo> TD: what's your favorite OS? Mac?
840 2012-12-04 21:46:46 <TD> i hate all of them :)
841 2012-12-04 21:47:02 <TD> at work i use linux. it's alright, given i only need to run a command line and emacs normally
842 2012-12-04 21:47:11 <TD> (and intellij for when i work on java stuff)
843 2012-12-04 21:47:20 <TD> it's not anything i'd recommend to non-geeks
844 2012-12-04 21:47:41 <Diapolo> you hate all of them ^^ alright
845 2012-12-04 21:47:48 <D34TH> Diapolo, i hate so do this, but how do you change the commit message? i have never had to change it
846 2012-12-04 21:47:51 <sipa> neither do i recommend it to others frequently, but for me it's the best choice i know of
847 2012-12-04 21:47:56 <TD> sure, for you
848 2012-12-04 21:48:25 <sipa> yes, if it's a good choice for me and some others, but not for yet others... how is that unsuccesful? it's not dying
849 2012-12-04 21:48:33 <TD> the market spoke clearly though - the vast majority of people i know who are not programmers are now using macs, a few are on windows
850 2012-12-04 21:48:46 <sipa> sure, it lives in a niche
851 2012-12-04 21:48:51 <TD> well, i'd define the word successful to mean more than "not dying" :)
852 2012-12-04 21:49:03 <sipa> evolving is probably better
853 2012-12-04 21:49:09 <sipa> OS/2 hasn't died either
854 2012-12-04 21:49:10 <TD> a platforms success is really about how many users it can attract. otherwise people don't bother writing apps for it
855 2012-12-04 21:49:14 <Diapolo> git rebase origin -i and then reword
856 2012-12-04 21:49:21 <TD> same for a currency
857 2012-12-04 21:49:28 <TD> network effects über alles
858 2012-12-04 21:49:53 <sipa> network effect certainly is important
859 2012-12-04 21:50:00 <TD> a ton of companies and individuals put a ton of work into desktop linux, not for themselves but to try and make it a successful product
860 2012-12-04 21:50:02 <D34TH> Diapolo, i did it through the github editor
861 2012-12-04 21:50:13 <TD> in the end those efforts were basically a failure. "linux for the family" never happened
862 2012-12-04 21:50:26 <sipa> but in my opinion, linux is doing good... certainly better than 10y ago
863 2012-12-04 21:50:27 <Diapolo> D34TH: is it saved then into the commit, dunno
864 2012-12-04 21:50:46 <sipa> hell, even game companies are developing for linux now
865 2012-12-04 21:50:48 <TD> i used to work for codeweavers, that was a little company that tried to build its fortune by making products for desktop linux users. when apple announced x86 mac they were very happy and ported their stuff immediately
866 2012-12-04 21:50:59 <sipa> who would even have dreamt about that 10y ago?
867 2012-12-04 21:51:15 <TD> well, i've been using linux for 10 years and little has changed. yes, games companies were releasing for linux 10 years ago
868 2012-12-04 21:51:27 <TD> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki_Software
869 2012-12-04 21:51:29 Hasimir- has joined
870 2012-12-04 21:51:31 <sipa> yeah, tuxracer
871 2012-12-04 21:51:36 <TD> Although successful in its goal of bringing games to the Linux platform, the company was eventually forced to close due to financial troubles,[3] with it declaring Chapter 11 Bankruptcy Protection in August 2001,[4][5] and finally being disbanded in January 2002.
872 2012-12-04 21:51:59 agricocb has joined
873 2012-12-04 21:52:03 <TD> yep, loki went bankrupt almost exactly 11 years ago
874 2012-12-04 21:52:12 <ByronJohnson> doublec: go'i
875 2012-12-04 21:52:18 <sipa> i feel you're completely off if you consider the only success scenario to be mainstream acceptance
876 2012-12-04 21:52:46 Hasimir has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
877 2012-12-04 21:52:53 <Diapolo> I fear game development will switch over to all those mobile and tablet things, as core-gaming is not where they make their money ... so Linux and gaming, I don't think that will cause a raise in users
878 2012-12-04 21:52:55 * helo busts out his 'loki: games linux people play' tshirt
879 2012-12-04 21:53:04 harkon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
880 2012-12-04 21:53:08 <sipa> Diapolo: indeed, it won't
881 2012-12-04 21:53:11 <TD> well, it depends on your goals for sure, but how could you argue a backwater system hardly anyone uses is a "success" without getting into "well it entertained me personally for a while" type definitions
882 2012-12-04 21:53:32 harkon has joined
883 2012-12-04 21:53:51 <TD> my definition of success is, would the man on the street agree that it was a success
884 2012-12-04 21:54:18 <maaku> ...meanwhile, Valve releases Steam client for Linux...
885 2012-12-04 21:54:35 <sipa> ^
886 2012-12-04 21:54:51 <TD> Diapolo: in fairness to linux, the games industry pretty much abandoned the entire PC/Mac market in favor of consoles years ago
887 2012-12-04 21:54:59 <Diapolo> they have enough money to do such adventures ^^ EA would not do this :D
888 2012-12-04 21:55:14 <Diapolo> TD: that is what I was trying to say ^^
889 2012-12-04 21:55:27 <TD> Diapolo: though linux has always been behind even macos for gaming. not that this is the only metric that matters
890 2012-12-04 21:55:37 <Diapolo> and I hate mobile gaming -_-
891 2012-12-04 21:59:17 <gmaxwell> TD: My definiton of success is the Haber process.
892 2012-12-04 21:59:31 eipeace is now known as lalalalla
893 2012-12-04 21:59:45 <TD> the fertilizer process?
894 2012-12-04 21:59:51 PK has quit ()
895 2012-12-04 21:59:58 <TD> because it led to the green revolution etc
896 2012-12-04 21:59:59 <TD> ?
897 2012-12-04 22:01:29 <gmaxwell> Yes. Something on the order of 2 billion extra people exist because of the haber process. Nitrogen fixing is one of the limiting factors for life on earth, and its the major bottleneck in industrial farming in most of the world.
898 2012-12-04 22:01:35 <TD> btw i disagree that android is linux. yes it uses the same kernel (mostly, it's quite heavily forked). but you can't write an app that runs on both android phones and ubuntu. everything other than the kernel is completely different.
899 2012-12-04 22:01:45 <TD> hmm
900 2012-12-04 22:01:54 <TD> not sure bitcoin can create an additional 2 billion people :)
901 2012-12-04 22:02:20 <Diapolo> so let's create 2 billion coins ... well no
902 2012-12-04 22:02:23 <TD> i'd be happy with it taking a good chunk out of paypal
903 2012-12-04 22:02:31 <TD> i mean, i don't feel like bitcoin has to become the one world currency or anything
904 2012-12-04 22:02:40 <gmaxwell> TD: I do agree somewhat with your dis-agreement on android. Android isnt't really something functionally equal to linux, the kernel is invisible to most people and largely 'incidental'â although the android system is a very open system compared to the alternatives which was part of the linux desktop story.
905 2012-12-04 22:02:44 <TD> but i'd like it to eventually at least be a household name used by people who don't care about technology or politics
906 2012-12-04 22:02:57 <TD> (and who aren't a tiny specialized minority, like drug dealers)
907 2012-12-04 22:02:58 <gmaxwell> I think very few people would be sad if we missed the linux desktop and got the freebsd desktop or the opensolaris desktop instead. :P
908 2012-12-04 22:03:05 <TD> heh
909 2012-12-04 22:03:12 <TD> i'm hoping one day android on the desktop happens
910 2012-12-04 22:03:32 <gmaxwell> seems right now that the fad mongers think the desktop is dead. 0_o
911 2012-12-04 22:03:33 <TD> macos is heading into some kind of dystopian fairy tale world. windows 8 is just bizarre. unity broke my desktop and i didn't really forgive it yet
912 2012-12-04 22:03:42 <Diapolo> Paypal needs a kick in it's ass their model is pure arbitrariness
913 2012-12-04 22:04:03 <TD> the history of paypal is interesting
914 2012-12-04 22:04:09 <sipa> age grading :p
915 2012-12-04 22:04:18 <TD> when it was first started, it was way closer to bitcoin in terms of its philosophy and politics than most people realize
916 2012-12-04 22:04:25 <TD> they were borderline crypto anarchists
917 2012-12-04 22:04:28 <gmaxwell> TD: I dunno, how household a word is most of the most important financial instruments until they fail?
918 2012-12-04 22:04:57 <TD> then size happened, and with it craptons of regulation
919 2012-12-04 22:04:58 libcoin has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
920 2012-12-04 22:05:08 <Diapolo> windows 8 metro is the most ugly, user-unfriedly and unneeded crap I've ever seen
921 2012-12-04 22:05:49 <sipa> at least it is evolution
922 2012-12-04 22:05:51 <helo> i don't know anyone that uses metro... step 1: click to desktop
923 2012-12-04 22:05:52 <TD> gmaxwell: i'm not sure a payment system is really like a financial instrument. but things like visa, mastercard, paypal, maestro, $BANK etc are all pretty much household names because people interact with them a lot
924 2012-12-04 22:05:56 <sipa> (note: haven't touched or tried it yet)
925 2012-12-04 22:06:00 <gmaxwell> I guess a fundimental point... I don't think the basic design (blockchain consensus) of bitcoin makes for a great end user technology. I don't mind it being a better one, but I don't see much point in trying to cram it in. So I think of infrastructure as a better goal than being a household name.
926 2012-12-04 22:06:17 <TD> sipa: it's pretty cool â¦.. on a tablet. i have no clue what they were thinking when they welded it to the side (literally) of the classic windows desktop
927 2012-12-04 22:06:39 <TD> gmaxwell: you mean a backbone for institutions?
928 2012-12-04 22:06:40 <gmaxwell> E.g. I thinkâ just on technologyâ bitcoin is a pretty poor replacement for visa. A currency visa could trade in? sure. But a replacement? It's just ... yuck. :)
929 2012-12-04 22:06:47 <TD> heh
930 2012-12-04 22:06:57 Cory has joined
931 2012-12-04 22:06:57 <TD> well i'm hopeful we can make it work. heck, it runs fine on my smartphone.
932 2012-12-04 22:07:05 <TD> and that's before even basic optimizations like bloom filtering is done.
933 2012-12-04 22:07:32 <sipa> gmaxwell: any results from running parallel checking on your 32-core machine? :p
934 2012-12-04 22:07:33 <TD> automatic sync at night made a world of difference
935 2012-12-04 22:07:40 <Diapolo> that Android client is pretty neat yes
936 2012-12-04 22:07:43 <TD> now it's never more than about 30 seconds sync away from head
937 2012-12-04 22:07:58 <TD> even though it's downloading full blocks
938 2012-12-04 22:08:00 <gmaxwell> I like that. And I do want to see that work go furtherâ but my thinking is that it'll always kinda suck compared to visa. But it means that when visa does offer transactions in BTC they'll have good competition from SPV clients working directly, and so they'll have to step up their pricing, security, and auditablity game.
939 2012-12-04 22:08:13 <TD> yes
940 2012-12-04 22:08:29 remiforall has joined
941 2012-12-04 22:08:35 <TD> i can easily see the end-game for bitcoin being "and then visa got a lot better and most people ended up using that"
942 2012-12-04 22:09:04 <Diapolo> For comparing these 2 I miss one thing ... a Bitcoin-payment-card or such.
943 2012-12-04 22:09:26 <sipa> Diapolo: but how is a bitcoin payment card any different from a dollar payment card?
944 2012-12-04 22:09:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: running the coins rebuild nowâ took a while to netsync.
945 2012-12-04 22:10:05 <TD> phones can be a good enough replacement. heck the entire US payment industry wants/wanted to move to using nfc in phones to pay for things
946 2012-12-04 22:10:09 <TD> not that it makes a ton of sense for them
947 2012-12-04 22:10:09 <sipa> i'm not saying that that would be a bad thing, but the reason why it is considered good won't have much to do with bitcoin anyway
948 2012-12-04 22:10:32 <Diapolo> I didn't think, just Visa is a card of plastic for me and I think most other normal users. Perhaps I was somewhere else with my thoughts,
949 2012-12-04 22:10:58 <jgarzik> Fun way to help bitcoin survive an Internet blackout: broadcast the 80-byte block headers via packet radio and other low bandwidth means
950 2012-12-04 22:11:34 <jgarzik> And another tangent: was pondering UDP for inv, tx, and block header messages
951 2012-12-04 22:11:38 <TD> the card format is legacy/backwards compatibility. Visa have introduced keyfobs and the like for doing touch-to-pay
952 2012-12-04 22:11:57 <TD> jgarzik: well, it might be better to let the chain split and have the worlds biggest re-org when connectivity comes back
953 2012-12-04 22:12:06 <TD> jgarzik: not sure if you can do much with just the headers
954 2012-12-04 22:12:16 <Diapolo> TD: Pay-wave and such stuff ... but I have ZERO trust in using that from a company like Visa or Mastercard
955 2012-12-04 22:12:25 <TD> Diapolo: why?
956 2012-12-04 22:12:28 <jgarzik> well, you could header + coinbase TX
957 2012-12-04 22:12:35 <jgarzik> once coinbase TX has UTXO merkle root
958 2012-12-04 22:12:58 <TD> jgarzik: but you aren't moving transactions in or out, if all that happens is you broadcast headers over the radio.
959 2012-12-04 22:13:04 <Diapolo> big company, intransparent, dunno how their security standards are and of course data-privacy concerns
960 2012-12-04 22:13:28 <TD> Diapolo: right, that applies to all payments even if it's not paywave
961 2012-12-04 22:13:51 * TD doesn't recall reading about visa getting hacked directly
962 2012-12-04 22:13:57 <Diapolo> I like hard coins ... which most other Germans love, too. We seem a little special in that case,
963 2012-12-04 22:14:14 <TD> of course the entire card infrastructure makes a sieve look like a cargo tanker
964 2012-12-04 22:14:31 <TD> germany has an unusually low level of credit card penetration. <0.3 iirc
965 2012-12-04 22:14:35 <TD> vs >2 for the USA
966 2012-12-04 22:15:45 <helo> it doesn't matter if visa is insecure, as You Are Protected
967 2012-12-04 22:16:34 <sipa> i wonder: how many people today use bitcoin because of its inherent properties (and not ideology, technology, speculation, ...)
968 2012-12-04 22:16:36 <Diapolo> So perhaps the point to make Bitcoin more popular is it's open and transparent concept, not it's Visa replacement capabilities. That's what is important to me.
969 2012-12-04 22:16:37 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Old C-band sat bandwidth is not terribly expensive. I got a quote a while back for $350/month for 100KHz bandwidth on a bird that should be visible to all of north america, central america, and some of south america.
970 2012-12-04 22:17:10 <gmaxwell> and 100KHz is wide enough that you could fit the blockchain maxrate there with low order modulation and lots of FEC and hopefully pick it up with a fairly small dish even though its cband.
971 2012-12-04 22:17:37 <TD> sipa: probably not many
972 2012-12-04 22:17:57 <Diapolo> TD: oh and I don't like to get profiled, I don't want Visa to know what I bought, when, where, when and all such stuff ... I don't trust in american companies data-protection policies ^^
973 2012-12-04 22:17:58 <TD> sipa: that said, i know one guy at google zrh does buy coins off me semi-regularly. he says he buys things online with them as he doesn't have a credit card
974 2012-12-04 22:18:06 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: thats even better bitcoin security than packet radioâ but people would need to invest in the infrastructure in advance.
975 2012-12-04 22:18:16 <TD> sipa: so i guess it's at least 1 :)
976 2012-12-04 22:18:26 <sipa> TD: well, i suppose SD players count as well...
977 2012-12-04 22:18:34 <TD> that's true
978 2012-12-04 22:18:58 JDuke128 has joined
979 2012-12-04 22:20:12 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: yep, I mentioned satellite in thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128702.msg1378305#msg1378305
980 2012-12-04 22:20:19 * jgarzik whips out the FidoNet reference
981 2012-12-04 22:21:16 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: bandwidth on ku band stuff is much more expensive though. :(
982 2012-12-04 22:21:52 <gavinandresen> sipa or luke-jr : trying to gitian-build 0.7.2rc2 I get this: http://pastebin.com/T2DjEXXL
983 2012-12-04 22:22:23 <gavinandresen> my ../bitcoin directory does have the 0.7.2rc2 tag from gitorious in it, checked out
984 2012-12-04 22:22:43 <Diapolo> *damn, why can't I connect to IPv6 nodes*
985 2012-12-04 22:23:05 <sipa> gavinandresen: gitian tries to download, it doesn't copy
986 2012-12-04 22:23:09 rlifchitz has joined
987 2012-12-04 22:23:09 rlifchitz has quit (Changing host)
988 2012-12-04 22:23:09 rlifchitz has joined
989 2012-12-04 22:23:26 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: can you confirm the gitian.yml file is pointing at the gitorious repo?
990 2012-12-04 22:23:27 <sipa> gavinandresen: i have a script that fetches in my normal repo dir, and then injects into gitian
991 2012-12-04 22:24:02 <sipa> i suppose what Luke-Jr says is te problem indeed
992 2012-12-04 22:24:03 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: yes, the gitian.yml in ../bitcoin/contrib/etc points to gitorious
993 2012-12-04 22:24:03 <Diapolo> TD: https://ipv6.google.com/ should be reachable via 6to4, right?
994 2012-12-04 22:24:38 <sipa> Diapolo: sure
995 2012-12-04 22:24:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: the utilization over 193k is really low. :(
996 2012-12-04 22:25:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: like 500%
997 2012-12-04 22:25:40 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I seem to recall a bug in newer gitians where it refused to use the provided URL once one had been established - maybe?
998 2012-12-04 22:25:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: quite expected
999 2012-12-04 22:25:42 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: mac 0.7.2rc2 build is at https://s3.amazonaws.com/gavinandresen-bitcoin/bitcoin-0.7.2rc2-macosx.dmg
1000 2012-12-04 22:25:56 <Luke-Jr> if that's the case, copying the tag to github/master repo will "workaround" it
1001 2012-12-04 22:26:05 <Diapolo> sipa: seems the last FW update for my router broke IPv6 ...
1002 2012-12-04 22:26:28 <gmaxwell> sipa: hm. suspending a sched_idle computing job increased it to 800% with bursts to 1000%.
1003 2012-12-04 22:26:34 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: poke
1004 2012-12-04 22:26:44 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: I'd rather it get fixed, or I'll waste another hour of my life trying to figure out why it doesn't work next time.
1005 2012-12-04 22:27:01 <sipa> gavinandresen: i got tired of it long ago :)
1006 2012-12-04 22:27:27 <sipa> i just want to build using the tags in my own repo
1007 2012-12-04 22:27:28 * Luke-Jr ended up just sticking to his old gitian version :/
1008 2012-12-04 22:27:42 <gavinandresen> I'm very tempted to cherry-pick the move bug and just spin a 0.7.2 final and be done with it.
1009 2012-12-04 22:28:12 da2ce7 has joined
1010 2012-12-04 22:28:32 <gmaxwell> sipa: still just 20-25% in most of the threads.
1011 2012-12-04 22:28:42 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: I don't understand your 0.7.2rc2 commit history; why all the "merge from old releases" commits that do nothing?
1012 2012-12-04 22:30:04 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: try deleting inputs/bitcoin/, that should force gitian to refetch
1013 2012-12-04 22:30:34 <jgarzik> TD: I would think there would be -some- value in multiple operators broadcasting their notion of current best block [header]
1014 2012-12-04 22:30:35 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm not so much worried about not maximizing utilization... we knew that wouldn't be possible with this mechanism
1015 2012-12-04 22:30:36 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: that seems to be working.
1016 2012-12-04 22:31:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: however, if saying 32 threads makes your system 80% loaded, for only a 3x speed gain compared to 1 thread... there is a problem
1017 2012-12-04 22:31:24 <Luke-Jr> looks like I reported this 2 months ago: https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder/issues/26 -.-
1018 2012-12-04 22:31:33 Diapolo has left ()
1019 2012-12-04 22:31:38 <sipa> gavinandresen: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/builds/bitcoin-build.sh.txt is my script
1020 2012-12-04 22:31:52 <sipa> it builds from whatever is in ../bitcoin-build
1021 2012-12-04 22:32:10 <sipa> (and it also signs, creates packages, some statistics, ...)
1022 2012-12-04 22:32:11 <gavinandresen> sipa: spiffy
1023 2012-12-04 22:32:27 <Luke-Jr> sipa: nice
1024 2012-12-04 22:32:41 <gmaxwell> sipa: it's not responsive to sigterm .. at all. in this config (32 threads, bit dbcace) :P (trying to restart it to run again with the system totally unloaded)
1025 2012-12-04 22:33:13 <jgarzik> huh. hash rate took a nose-dive, and price is going up.
1026 2012-12-04 22:33:29 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah, noticed that myself
1027 2012-12-04 22:33:45 <gmaxwell> I think it's the dbcache, as I didn't notice that on the other systems.
1028 2012-12-04 22:34:01 <sipa> gmaxwell: i think it's just not checking fShutdown
1029 2012-12-04 22:34:37 <sipa> hmm, it does
1030 2012-12-04 22:37:37 <sipa> oh, it should check fRequestShutdown instead
1031 2012-12-04 22:38:09 <sipa> lolwut???
1032 2012-12-04 22:38:29 <sipa> the network message handler threads polls fRequestShutdown to initialize the shutdown process? :o
1033 2012-12-04 22:38:49 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1034 2012-12-04 22:38:50 <TD> hmm
1035 2012-12-04 22:38:58 <TD> i wonder if this is the anticipated adjustment to 25 BTC rewards
1036 2012-12-04 22:39:17 <maaku> TD? that happened a week ago
1037 2012-12-04 22:39:24 <TD> yes i know
1038 2012-12-04 22:39:25 copumpkin has joined
1039 2012-12-04 22:39:36 <TD> i mean, the falling speed and the rising price is what you'd expect to see when inflation suddenly halves
1040 2012-12-04 22:40:02 sgornick has joined
1041 2012-12-04 22:40:16 <gmaxwell> TD: dunno that speed has actually fallen, dips of this magntiude on the graph happen every week or two.
1042 2012-12-04 22:40:18 <sipa> rising price.. unsure
1043 2012-12-04 22:40:26 <sipa> falling speed seems expectable
1044 2012-12-04 22:40:27 <TD> guess we'll see soon enough
1045 2012-12-04 22:40:50 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,ticker
1046 2012-12-04 22:40:50 <gribble> Error: "bc,ticker" is not a valid command.
1047 2012-12-04 22:40:53 <gmaxwell> ;;ticker
1048 2012-12-04 22:40:53 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 13.44001, Best ask: 13.49300, Bid-ask spread: 0.05299, Last trade: 13.49490, 24 hour volume: 59795.42159723, 24 hour low: 12.55000, 24 hour high: 13.50000, 24 hour vwap: 12.98225
1049 2012-12-04 22:40:54 <sipa> note that my graph tend to exaggerate some sudden changes
1050 2012-12-04 22:41:18 <TD> yeah
1051 2012-12-04 22:41:28 <gmaxwell> GPU mining is still profitable over power for me, but not very much.
1052 2012-12-04 22:41:40 <maaku> price already rose 2x in the 6mo period leading up to december.. i wouldn't expect it to rise much more because we actually reached halving day
1053 2012-12-04 22:42:12 <sipa> maaku: seems reasonable, but i wouldn't have made a bet on that beforehand
1054 2012-12-04 22:42:28 <sipa> the bitcoin market isn't particularly rational, i think :)
1055 2012-12-04 22:42:37 <maaku> sipa: me neither :)
1056 2012-12-04 22:43:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: more rational than some of the pundits!
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1064 2012-12-04 23:13:58 * midnightmagic is having trouble reading past the visa-using-bitcoin discussion without saying something derogatory
1065 2012-12-04 23:14:05 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1066 2012-12-04 23:15:00 JZavala has joined
1067 2012-12-04 23:16:09 <maaku> midnightmagic: just mentally replace "visa" with "my future visa-killing startup" and it reads better
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1070 2012-12-04 23:21:05 <gmaxwell> meh
1071 2012-12-04 23:21:05 <gmaxwell> 12/04/12 22:20:38 SetBestChain: new best=00000000839a8e6886ab5951d76f411475428afc90947ee320161bbf18eb6048 height=1 work=8590065666 tx=2 date=01/09/09 02:54:25
1072 2012-12-04 23:21:09 <gmaxwell> 12/04/12 23:03:39 SetBestChain: new best=000000000000048b95347e83192f69cf0366076336c639f9b7228e9ba171342e height=210000 work=628963747775700992096 tx=9344662 date=11/28/12 15:24:38
1073 2012-12-04 23:21:09 <midnightmagic> :-)
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1075 2012-12-04 23:21:42 <sipa> 43 minutes? :o
1076 2012-12-04 23:22:13 <midnightmagic> i thought you had it down to just a few dozen minutes?
1077 2012-12-04 23:23:01 <sipa> depends what we're benchmarking, with which options, on which machine, with which settings :)
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1079 2012-12-04 23:25:18 <sipa> best result so far: 12 threads, rebuild of coindb until 210000 blocks, hexacore xeon CPU, 2 GB dbcache, Hal's optimized signature verification, scripts only verified after checkpoint: 13m51s
1080 2012-12-04 23:26:16 <sipa> the same machine did a more-or-less noncheating sync from network in 37 minutes
1081 2012-12-04 23:26:42 <midnightmagic> that's pretty cool.
1082 2012-12-04 23:30:28 <bonks> So I can't find much about the public notes on blockchain.info. Is this a feature of theirs or the bitcoin protocol?
1083 2012-12-04 23:30:40 <sipa> theirs.
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1085 2012-12-04 23:30:50 <D34TH> now tar.xz that and upload it for people
1086 2012-12-04 23:30:50 <D34TH> :D
1087 2012-12-04 23:31:05 <sipa> D34TH: tar.xz what?
1088 2012-12-04 23:31:11 <sipa> my machine?
1089 2012-12-04 23:31:19 <bonks> sipa: Ah okay. So it's a comment when you send coins from their online wallet service
1090 2012-12-04 23:31:31 <sipa> bonks: and it's stored in their database
1091 2012-12-04 23:31:46 <bonks> Ok thanks. What is the comment and comment-to in bitcind used for?
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1093 2012-12-04 23:32:35 <sipa> they used to be used for send-to-IP transactions i think, now they're mostly useless
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1095 2012-12-04 23:32:59 <sipa> you can set them for outgoing transactions when using the RPC interface
1096 2012-12-04 23:33:01 <sipa> that's it
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1100 2012-12-04 23:34:22 <sipa> bonks: note that the payment protocol which is being developed on top of bitcoin will have messages attached to transactions
1101 2012-12-04 23:35:15 <bonks> awesome :D
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