1 2012-12-07 00:04:26 <jgarzik> pah
  2 2012-12-07 00:04:31 <jgarzik> I see now why sipa did undo files
  3 2012-12-07 00:04:48 zooko`` is now known as zooko
  4 2012-12-07 00:04:48 <jgarzik> seems brd ("block relay daemon") either needs undo files, or an all-tx index
  5 2012-12-07 00:04:56 <jgarzik> in order to handle reorgs properly
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  7 2012-12-07 00:05:34 <jgarzik> if you must rewind the UTXO set, you must recover outputs given just (hash,n)
  8 2012-12-07 00:06:12 <sipa> blocks are authenticated patches to the UTXO set
  9 2012-12-07 00:06:17 <sipa> undo files are reverse patches
 10 2012-12-07 00:07:01 <sipa> but indeed, you only need them for reorganisations
 11 2012-12-07 00:07:28 <sipa> or for delayed script validation, because they happen to contain all the txouts for which a blocks provides the txins
 12 2012-12-07 00:07:29 <jgarzik> was trying to figure out a way to reverse-patch based on block data
 13 2012-12-07 00:07:32 <jgarzik> but could not
 14 2012-12-07 00:07:41 <sipa> haha, yeah me too :D
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 16 2012-12-07 00:08:07 <sipa> but you lost the spent txouts... quite obviously
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 18 2012-12-07 00:08:30 <jgarzik> well with the block data they are there...
 19 2012-12-07 00:08:35 <jgarzik> just not indexed
 20 2012-12-07 00:08:47 <jgarzik> hmmm
 21 2012-12-07 00:08:52 <sipa> right, true
 22 2012-12-07 00:09:03 <jgarzik> I suppose I could scan the entire 3GB+ data file for them, in the case of a reorg ;-)
 23 2012-12-07 00:09:06 <jgarzik> rofl
 24 2012-12-07 00:09:33 <sipa> in case it's not the last txout of a tx, you still know the height
 25 2012-12-07 00:09:41 <jgarzik> ahhh, good point!
 26 2012-12-07 00:09:44 <sipa> so you only need to scan one block in that case :p
 27 2012-12-07 00:10:17 <jgarzik> sadly, would still need to handle the last-txout-deletes-CCoin case
 28 2012-12-07 00:10:35 <sipa> yes, that's why you need undo files :D
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 30 2012-12-07 00:13:28 <jgarzik> disappointing :)
 31 2012-12-07 00:13:37 <jgarzik> but agreed
 32 2012-12-07 00:14:12 <jgarzik> I could reverse-scan the block file
 33 2012-12-07 00:14:20 <jgarzik> find the transactions needed
 34 2012-12-07 00:14:26 <jgarzik> would be faster than a forward scan, at least
 35 2012-12-07 00:15:14 <sipa> no point
 36 2012-12-07 00:15:38 <sipa> keep 2000 undo files around, and if that's not enough, just rebuild from scratch
 37 2012-12-07 00:15:57 <sipa> they are around 9 times smaller than the blocks themself
 38 2012-12-07 00:16:14 <sipa> so that's max 220 MB :)
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 44 2012-12-07 00:22:43 <jgarzik> sipa: true
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 46 2012-12-07 00:23:02 <jgarzik> sipa: but right now I must have the blocks file, as "brd" is a full node
 47 2012-12-07 00:23:21 <jgarzik> I'm trying to see if I can avoid additional files and indices
 48 2012-12-07 00:23:32 <jgarzik> it appears so, as long as you don't mind a 2.5 minute startup
 49 2012-12-07 00:25:07 <sipa> and a 2.5 minute reorg?
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 51 2012-12-07 00:29:51 <jgarzik> sipa: for a worst case whole-chain reorg, yes :)
 52 2012-12-07 00:30:01 owowo has joined
 53 2012-12-07 00:30:19 <jgarzik> sipa: but with an in-memory block header index, it's just a matter of walking the block index linked list backwards
 54 2012-12-07 00:30:51 <sipa> no, i mean to find all tx's whose txouts were spent, to rewind the UTXO set
 55 2012-12-07 00:30:52 <jgarzik> the in-memory UTXO gives me height, if the transaction remains in that index.  if it's the last txout spent, reverse block walk.
 56 2012-12-07 00:31:05 <jgarzik> sipa: yes, reverse block walk
 57 2012-12-07 00:31:25 <sipa> so: (up to) a 2.5 minute reorg
 58 2012-12-07 00:31:27 <jgarzik> sipa: if someone spends genesis block transaction, worst case is 2.5 minutes
 59 2012-12-07 00:31:34 <jgarzik> yes
 60 2012-12-07 00:31:50 <sipa> i'm sure that whether it's from the genesis block or from block 100k hardly makes a difference
 61 2012-12-07 00:32:23 <sipa> in any case, it's what i'd call a very non-scalable solution :)
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 63 2012-12-07 00:33:16 <sipa> oh, btw: you can't spend the genesis block txout :)
 64 2012-12-07 00:33:48 <jgarzik> as most transactions spend recent bitcoins, and many transactions would still be in the UTXO set, worst case behavior is uncommon I would think
 65 2012-12-07 00:33:53 <jgarzik> but yes, indices are inevitable
 66 2012-12-07 00:33:59 <jgarzik> just trying to put them off as long as possible
 67 2012-12-07 00:34:16 <jgarzik> once I implement undo files, might as well start storing UTXO set on disk, rather than rebuilding it at startup each time
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 69 2012-12-07 00:34:46 <jgarzik> and that requires opening the "database" can o worms
 70 2012-12-07 00:34:51 <sipa> haha
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 72 2012-12-07 00:36:06 <jgarzik> hmmmm.  I wonder about the cost of simply storing a list of transaction ids with each block header
 73 2012-12-07 00:36:25 <jgarzik> we have, what, ~5 million transactions?
 74 2012-12-07 00:36:29 <sipa> 9.6
 75 2012-12-07 00:37:10 <jgarzik> so tightly packed that's ~300MB
 76 2012-12-07 00:37:16 <jgarzik> of hashes
 77 2012-12-07 00:38:26 <sipa> that also restricts you to keeping all blocks around forever (which seems you intention, but is not required at all if you just want a daemon that quickly relays)
 78 2012-12-07 00:40:04 <jgarzik> indeed
 79 2012-12-07 00:42:06 <jgarzik> Could go the other way and just store a block index on disk
 80 2012-12-07 00:42:52 <jgarzik> with {txid->bitmap} index too perhaps
 81 2012-12-07 00:43:15 <sipa> spentness bitmap?
 82 2012-12-07 00:43:19 <jgarzik> yeah
 83 2012-12-07 00:44:19 <sipa> but still keep the utxo set in memory?
 84 2012-12-07 00:44:34 <jgarzik> hmmmm
 85 2012-12-07 00:45:02 <jgarzik> nah, spentness checking suddenly makes reorg complicated
 86 2012-12-07 00:45:06 <sipa> btw, the undo-files method doesn't require any index really (though probably need to read through them at startup as well)
 87 2012-12-07 00:45:14 <jgarzik> reorg is quite easy, if you don't care about UTXO ;p
 88 2012-12-07 00:45:27 <maaku> imho, it shouldn't be either-or: I'd want a framework that can do all of the above and customized at compile or runtime
 89 2012-12-07 00:45:33 <maaku> different applications demand different indices
 90 2012-12-07 00:45:34 <sipa> maaku: go write it
 91 2012-12-07 00:45:44 <maaku> working on it ;)
 92 2012-12-07 00:45:47 <sipa> haha
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 94 2012-12-07 00:46:25 <jgarzik> so, yeah, could do a block-index-only mode, no block/undo/UTXO data stored on disk, for a minimal block relay
 95 2012-12-07 00:46:37 <jgarzik> then the full validation mode would store undo files and full block data
 96 2012-12-07 00:46:50 <casascius> On the forums it is reported that somebody just did an escrow transaction with my bip38 sample app
 97 2012-12-07 00:47:00 <jgarzik> if startup could read through undo files and not full block data, that could be nice
 98 2012-12-07 00:47:06 <jgarzik> a nice compromise
 99 2012-12-07 00:47:17 <sipa> jgarzik: store block positions inside the undo files; done
100 2012-12-07 00:47:26 <jgarzik> good point
101 2012-12-07 00:47:30 <jgarzik>  /idea
102 2012-12-07 00:47:45 <sipa> casascius: what does bip38 have to do with escrowing?
103 2012-12-07 00:48:02 <jgarzik> that's a nice design actually :)  it means I can avoid the dreaded "database" rathole
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105 2012-12-07 00:48:18 <jgarzik> sipa: thanks :)
106 2012-12-07 00:48:25 <casascius> a lot apparently, i wasn't even expecting this
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108 2012-12-07 00:49:43 <casascius> i proposed a method for doing 2 factor physical bitcoins.   alice chooses a passphrase, my utility creates an "intermediate code" (it's random salt + an ec point), bob generates bitcoin addresses with it that need alice's passphrase, and also can give alice a "confirmation code" (it's alice's own salt plus bob's generated ec point)
109 2012-12-07 00:50:09 <sipa> maaku: anyway, i agree actually
110 2012-12-07 00:50:10 <casascius> both sides can see the bitcoin address and know it's encumbered by the key material they generated
111 2012-12-07 00:51:13 <casascius> in this case, somebody used my physical bitcoin generator, but in this case, they each kept the key material they created to themselves, encumbering the coins until either "alice" shared the passphrase or "bob" shared the encrypted key
112 2012-12-07 00:51:49 <sipa> maaku: but i think block validation is a specialized application, and deserves a index/database that's designed specifically for that (with just what is needed for block validation, and nothing else)... anything that can't be done with that should get an optional index
113 2012-12-07 00:51:58 <casascius> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=129399.msg1383296#msg1383296
114 2012-12-07 00:52:15 <casascius> forum thread where the person doing it reported having done so
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117 2012-12-07 01:08:56 <korozion> blarg it's difficult getting hardware going on Linux
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120 2012-12-07 01:11:05 <Luke-Jr> korozion: only junk hardware, or Ubuntu
121 2012-12-07 01:11:51 <korozion> ubuntu :)
122 2012-12-07 01:12:23 <korozion> any decent Debian options?
123 2012-12-07 01:12:25 <korozion> or other?
124 2012-12-07 01:12:34 <D34TH> oh wow, bitcoin made the 7th page of reddit
125 2012-12-07 01:12:46 <Luke-Jr> isn't reddit bitcoin-specific? :P
126 2012-12-07 01:12:56 <D34TH> they have a subreddit for bitcoin
127 2012-12-07 01:13:04 <korozion> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Gw7YPYgMgNNU42skibULbJJUx_suP_CpjSEdSi8_z9U/edit#   been working with that
128 2012-12-07 01:13:11 <korozion> one time I had three cards working
129 2012-12-07 01:13:14 <korozion> but I've had no luck since
130 2012-12-07 01:13:21 <D34TH> Luke-Jr, they linked https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=129461.0
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133 2012-12-07 01:35:15 <sipa> ;;bc,gen
134 2012-12-07 01:35:15 <gribble> use the 'genrate' command instead
135 2012-12-07 01:35:26 <sipa> ;;bc,genrate
136 2012-12-07 01:35:26 <gribble> Error: "bc,genrate" is not a valid command.
137 2012-12-07 01:35:35 <sipa> ;;genrate
138 2012-12-07 01:35:35 <gribble> (genrate <hashrate> [<difficulty>]) -- Calculate expected bitcoin generation rate using <hashrate> Mhps, at current difficulty. If optional <difficulty> argument is provided, expected generation time is for supplied difficulty.
139 2012-12-07 01:35:57 <sipa> ;;genrate 1000
140 2012-12-07 01:35:58 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 3438908.96016, is 0.146242368181 BTC per day and 0.00609343200754 BTC per hour.
141 2012-12-07 01:37:20 <sipa> ;;calc 1000*1000000*86400*65535/2**48/3438908*25
142 2012-12-07 01:37:20 <gribble> 0.14624017753
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146 2012-12-07 01:58:19 <denisx> wow, bitcoin seems to have a memleak
147 2012-12-07 01:58:34 <D34TH> hmm
148 2012-12-07 01:58:41 <denisx> I'm at 1500MB while loading the blocks at 186490
149 2012-12-07 01:58:47 <D34TH> denisx, you compiled with msvc right
150 2012-12-07 02:00:27 <denisx> D34TH: no, I'm on freebsd
151 2012-12-07 02:00:30 <denisx> gcc or clang
152 2012-12-07 02:00:36 <sipa> denisx: virtual memory or resident?
153 2012-12-07 02:00:44 <D34TH> oh, i remember someone with msvc that had a similar nick
154 2012-12-07 02:00:49 <denisx> both
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156 2012-12-07 02:01:30 <sipa> it shouldn't be more than 200 or so
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158 2012-12-07 02:03:19 <sipa> denisx: ir
159 2012-12-07 02:03:54 <sipa> it would be very useful if you can find where all tjat memory gets allocated
160 2012-12-07 02:04:35 <denisx> sipa: you mean valgrind?
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166 2012-12-07 02:11:22 <korozion> http://pastr.it/17221
167 2012-12-07 02:11:26 <korozion> someone able to help me with that?
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171 2012-12-07 02:12:41 <denisx> korozion: try bitcoin-mining
172 2012-12-07 02:12:53 <korozion> #bitcoin-mining ?
173 2012-12-07 02:13:30 <korozion> thanks
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176 2012-12-07 02:18:51 <BlueMatt> sipa: no, its not
177 2012-12-07 02:20:23 <BlueMatt> sipa: old bug, still havent fixed it...it dies occasionally, will fix it eventually, but its running now
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207 2012-12-07 04:34:16 <etotheipi_> can someone please do me a favor and send me some testnet coins?  myuKrt7drr4k1c5E3g5gUr4oQHLoJnjq5j
208 2012-12-07 04:34:43 <etotheipi_> I can't do it myself, because I'm specifically investigating whether my problem is only when localhost Bitcoin-Qt sends coins
209 2012-12-07 04:36:41 <jgarzik> one sec
210 2012-12-07 04:37:36 <etotheipi_> perfect
211 2012-12-07 04:37:42 <etotheipi_> thanks jgarzik
212 2012-12-07 04:37:59 <etotheipi_> want them back?
213 2012-12-07 04:38:02 <jgarzik> no
214 2012-12-07 04:38:13 <jgarzik> you are welcome to send them to the faucet though
215 2012-12-07 04:38:23 <etotheipi_> oh, I forgot about the faucet
216 2012-12-07 04:38:33 <etotheipi_> I probably could've just done that, instead
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219 2012-12-07 04:39:04 <etotheipi_> "The Faucet is being fixed; please come back in an hour or three."
220 2012-12-07 04:39:52 <etotheipi_> oh well...
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226 2012-12-07 04:46:49 <nanotube> an hour or three or three thousand... it's been down for ages now.
227 2012-12-07 04:49:49 <jgarzik> etotheipi_: no biggie
228 2012-12-07 04:50:04 <jgarzik> etotheipi_: just ask on here, if you need more.  I'm constantly mining on testnet3, and I think gmaxwell is also
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266 2012-12-07 09:22:57 <sta> paliokathiki tyou kerata
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285 2012-12-07 10:29:54 <DMCommit> [DiabloMiner] Diablo-D3 pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/BQeEag
286 2012-12-07 10:29:54 <DMCommit> DiabloMiner/master 658e560 Patrick McFarland: Fix -g
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319 2012-12-07 12:45:17 <MC1984> what happene to thealtchain scene
320 2012-12-07 12:49:28 robocoin has joined
321 2012-12-07 12:51:11 <TD_> MC1984: how do you mean ?
322 2012-12-07 12:51:38 TD_ is now known as TD
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324 2012-12-07 12:57:32 graingert_ecs has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
325 2012-12-07 12:59:43 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: its still around
326 2012-12-07 13:01:45 Cory has joined
327 2012-12-07 13:01:46 <MC1984> where
328 2012-12-07 13:09:02 JZavala has joined
329 2012-12-07 13:15:56 <sipa> gavinandresen, gmaxwell: just had an idea... we currently do signature caching, but essentially validity is a boolean and never-changing property of (non-coinbase) transactions, and signatures will in almost no cases ever repeat across transactions
330 2012-12-07 13:16:13 <sipa> gavinandresen, gmaxwell: so why not keep a transaction validity cache?
331 2012-12-07 13:16:43 <sipa> should be a lot smaller and make the validation in blocks instant
332 2012-12-07 13:20:29 slothbag has joined
333 2012-12-07 13:20:40 koolgoth has joined
334 2012-12-07 13:22:17 <slothbag> Hey all, trying out latest jenkins build 176 on windows.. its forcing me to re-download the entire blockchain..
335 2012-12-07 13:22:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: there are DOS attacks which are improved by signature caching.
336 2012-12-07 13:23:23 <sipa> slothbag: yes, the database layout changed, and there is no auto-upgrade code yet
337 2012-12-07 13:23:45 <gmaxwell> sipa: e.g. I can generate one txn with 100 signatures in it, and the last one is invalid junk. Now I generate an unending stream of variations by changing the junk.
338 2012-12-07 13:24:06 <sipa> good point
339 2012-12-07 13:24:23 <sipa> but still... the average case speedup would be very significant, i think
340 2012-12-07 13:24:32 <gmaxwell> So I don't know how great only a validity cache would be. Though we could potentially just use is-in-mempool for the same purpose.
341 2012-12-07 13:24:53 <gmaxwell> (and that would have no more memory usage than we already have)
342 2012-12-07 13:25:29 <sipa> assuming no repeated signatures, a tx validity cache can be >10 smaller for the same coverage
343 2012-12-07 13:25:34 <sipa> >10x
344 2012-12-07 13:27:04 <sipa> true about just using the mempool
345 2012-12-07 13:27:34 <sipa> especially now that all entries into the mempool have full script checking enabled
346 2012-12-07 13:28:35 koolgoth has left ()
347 2012-12-07 13:29:10 <gmaxwell> Right. Not _quite_ as good, since we won't have all valid txn that we've recently seen... but it also helpfully gets in-chain stuff pruned out and such..
348 2012-12-07 13:29:19 <slothbag> sipa: thanks, will frustrate many users without the auto-upgrade code i suspect
349 2012-12-07 13:30:03 <gmaxwell> slothbag: There will be autoupdate code before it is released.
350 2012-12-07 13:30:33 <slothbag> sounds good
351 2012-12-07 13:30:34 paraipan has joined
352 2012-12-07 13:31:24 <gmaxwell> slothbag: in the meantime, you can use -loadblock=/full/path/to/blk0001.dat -loadblock=/full/path/to/blk0002.dat as parameters to make it import your old chain.
353 2012-12-07 13:32:00 <slothbag> oh cool.. i'll give it a go
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357 2012-12-07 13:40:20 <slothbag> this has probably already been asked before.. is it possible to say take the hash of the lastest checkpoint (say 190000 or whatever it is) and get all the addresses with unspent outputs.. everyone agrees that hash is correct, then I can delete my blockchain history and I can run a full participating node for current transactions, but just be missing history.  Then I can save a torrent of the first 190000 blocks on a DVD somewher
358 2012-12-07 13:40:21 <slothbag> e for retrieval if ever needed.. hopefully you get what im trying to say
359 2012-12-07 13:41:15 <sipa> slothbag: that's essentially what the 0.8 database does - it just maintains a database of unspent txouts, and a log of updates to it (so it can be undone in case of reorgs)
360 2012-12-07 13:41:22 <jgarzik> w00t
361 2012-12-07 13:41:29 <jgarzik> block relay daemon is aliiiivvvvveeee
362 2012-12-07 13:41:32 <sipa> slothbag: so for actual validation, the block data isn't needed anymore
363 2012-12-07 13:42:32 <sipa> slothbag: however, deleing the block data (as opposed to not using it for validation) could have serious repercussions on the network (the block data is still needed to boot up new nodes)
364 2012-12-07 13:43:03 nus has joined
365 2012-12-07 13:45:51 <slothbag> but we dont need or care about history..  just like we now consider the genesis block "bail out banks blah blah" to be the master origin.. we would agree that block 190000 hash abc123 is now equivalent master origin. and new nodes could boot from there... downloading a torrent only if they need history
366 2012-12-07 13:47:38 <sipa> slothbag: yes, the way to do this is indeed to maintain a merkle hash of the UTXO set, and commit that hash to the coinbase (so miners maintain and verify this hash)
367 2012-12-07 13:48:07 <sipa> slothbag: that would allow someone to download the current UTXO set from any node, and be sure miners agree this is indeed the current UTXO set
368 2012-12-07 13:48:48 <sipa> that's still giving up the zero-trust model bitcoin full nodes now implement
369 2012-12-07 13:54:17 <slothbag> I dont really see it is giving up trust.. currently I trust that all transactions can be traced back to genesis block (hard coded in the software) with hash 456, if the code was modified to say block 190000 with hash 123 is also set in stone just like the genesis block, then as long as all subsequent blocks can be traced back to block 190000 hash 123 I would trust that just the same.
370 2012-12-07 13:54:36 <TD> i think it's more a question of why you'd want to do that
371 2012-12-07 13:56:39 <sipa> slothbag: because it means you'll never see the history before a certain point, and can't know an evil cabal of miners cheated during that period (e.g. giving themself more coins than allowed)
372 2012-12-07 13:56:43 <slothbag> save disk space and download time i suppose.. i'm not really interested in the history, seems redundant and will become more of a problem in years to come
373 2012-12-07 13:57:08 <TD> eventually i guess pruning will be enabled so you don't need ever-growing disk space unless you volunteer to be an archival node
374 2012-12-07 13:57:21 <TD> download time -> well, over time running a full node will become more of a commitment
375 2012-12-07 13:57:26 <TD> but stuff gets faster too
376 2012-12-07 13:57:27 <sipa> slothbag: that's mostly a theoretical problem, but it's the distinction between not trusting anything, and trusting that the majority of miners agrees
377 2012-12-07 13:57:28 <slothbag> dont get me wrong, i'd still like to see full nodes.. but i'd like to run a cut down version for my resource limited PC
378 2012-12-07 13:57:36 <TD> so use multibit
379 2012-12-07 13:57:49 <jgarzik> Slower pizza is more luscious, because the King of Spain never rushes.
380 2012-12-07 13:57:52 <sipa> TD: if anything, it guarantees all miners have the same state
381 2012-12-07 13:58:09 <sipa> TD: right now, some may be silently corrupting their data without knowing
382 2012-12-07 13:58:35 <sipa> and yes, it allows a fast bootstrap of a fully validating node that is not an archive node, with SPV trust in history
383 2012-12-07 13:58:41 <TD> sure
384 2012-12-07 13:59:37 <sipa> which is a security model that doesn't currently exist on the network, but it makes sense
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388 2012-12-07 14:00:16 <slothbag> multibit.. well I still like to participate in the network validating transactions and mining and the rest.. i just dont wont the history is all..
389 2012-12-07 14:02:28 <darkskiez> thats a thought... unless you actually mine a block your validations are pretty worthless yeh?
390 2012-12-07 14:02:57 <slothbag> relay transactions then :)
391 2012-12-07 14:03:51 daybyter has joined
392 2012-12-07 14:04:26 <sipa> jgarzik: uhm... wth?
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397 2012-12-07 14:16:55 <slothbag> got the "Importing blocks from disk" going, thanks for the help.. gotta go
398 2012-12-07 14:17:48 slothbag has quit (Quit: I quit!)
399 2012-12-07 14:18:41 ciphermonk has joined
400 2012-12-07 14:18:58 <denisx> sipa: is 4.6GB for the blocks in ultrapruna correct?
401 2012-12-07 14:20:36 <sipa> denisx: including undo data?
402 2012-12-07 14:21:02 <sipa> 4697088 KiB here
403 2012-12-07 14:21:11 <denisx> the whole dir
404 2012-12-07 14:21:18 <sipa> yes
405 2012-12-07 14:21:20 <denisx> ok
406 2012-12-07 14:22:39 abracadabra has joined
407 2012-12-07 14:27:10 <gmaxwell> darkskiez: that isn't the case. Your ~.
408 2012-12-07 14:28:09 <gmaxwell> validationd govern what you realay and what you accept. If there were _only_ miners validating then it would be in the short term rational best interest of all miners to— say— set the subsidy to 50 BTC forever.
409 2012-12-07 14:28:39 <gmaxwell> (sorry, typing blind behind a lossy connection) s/validationd govern/validation governs/
410 2012-12-07 14:28:43 <gmaxwell> )
411 2012-12-07 14:30:00 <gmaxwell> slothbag: is your resource constrained system really so short on space that it can't handle a couple gigabytes of archival data?
412 2012-12-07 14:30:14 <Jouke> gmaxwell: I don't think so, because that would render bitcoin more or less worthless
413 2012-12-07 14:30:44 <denisx> Jouke: but only later in time and miner have only short time interest
414 2012-12-07 14:31:01 <sipa> gmaxwell: the question here is not really about storing it or not (not storing is possible without giving up trust)... it's about downloading and processing it in advance
415 2012-12-07 14:31:15 <Jouke> yeah, like one block, that is uberubershort time and wouldn't bring them much.
416 2012-12-07 14:32:22 <Jouke> So imo that is nog really an option to the miners/
417 2012-12-07 14:32:23 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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420 2012-12-07 14:42:51 <jgarzik> sipa: it's true
421 2012-12-07 14:45:45 <jgarzik> sipa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-00zjEq9PNs
422 2012-12-07 14:45:52 * jgarzik lowers interest rates, and makes pizza
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439 2012-12-07 15:37:03 <TD> jgarzik: does your dns seed use the regular crawler software or is it still a hard coded list?
440 2012-12-07 15:38:10 <jgarzik> TD: hard coded
441 2012-12-07 15:38:31 <jgarzik> TD: dnspark does not have an easy API for updating the addresses
442 2012-12-07 15:38:42 <TD> ok. hmm.
443 2012-12-07 15:38:45 <jgarzik> TD: and no other seed is behind DDoS-protected service
444 2012-12-07 15:39:04 <TD> i'm changing bcj so it resolves all dns seeds in parallel and uses whichever answers first. unfortunately yours always wins, which won't give a particularly good distribution :)
445 2012-12-07 15:39:36 <jgarzik> TD: the fix is well known :)  don't be so reliant on DNS seeds
446 2012-12-07 15:40:02 <jgarzik> better for network security
447 2012-12-07 15:40:22 <TD> yes but it's also a fair bit of work to do well such that you still get fast startup, which is important
448 2012-12-07 15:40:33 <TD> i'm working towards it
449 2012-12-07 15:40:40 <Diablo-D3> td: it should wait for 3 to resolve and then merge the results (removing duplicates) and then randomly choose nodes
450 2012-12-07 15:40:43 <Diablo-D3> or something like that
451 2012-12-07 15:42:32 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
452 2012-12-07 15:43:23 <sipa> mental note: really update the list of bootstrap IPs fro 0.8
453 2012-12-07 15:43:26 prahanormal has joined
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455 2012-12-07 15:46:10 <jgarzik> sipa: update hardcoded IP list, checkpoint (to 210000 probably)
456 2012-12-07 15:46:22 <jgarzik> TD: not really
457 2012-12-07 15:46:34 <jgarzik> TD: aggressively connect to freshest addresses in your list
458 2012-12-07 15:46:47 <jgarzik> TD: run dns in parallel with connection state machine
459 2012-12-07 15:47:31 <jgarzik> TD: set target of N connections.  open M connect(2) in parallel.  slowly increase M until N is reached, or peer list is exhausted.
460 2012-12-07 15:47:39 <jgarzik> TD: sort by nTime
461 2012-12-07 15:48:17 <TD> i didn't say it's "hard" i said it's work. you just listed 5 steps, some of which are done in parallel. all that needs to be written, unit tested, debugged, etc.
462 2012-12-07 15:49:06 <jgarzik> note "parallel" only implies multiple threads if you want to over-complicate the code ;p
463 2012-12-07 15:50:00 <TD> java, unfortunately, does not offer non-blocking DNS by default. you need an extra library to do that.
464 2012-12-07 15:50:22 prahanormal has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
465 2012-12-07 15:51:49 <jgarzik> All our DNS seeds are currently well-maintained.  I do not look forward to the day when one of them disappears.  That will expose a few lazy clients (_not_ implying bitcoinj is one of those; I presume like bitcoind you have DNS lookups in a separate thread)
466 2012-12-07 15:53:03 <TD> sometimes they do go away
467 2012-12-07 15:53:24 <TD> nope, the current code (that i'm replacing) just iterates down a list of seeds in sequence until one of them replies
468 2012-12-07 15:55:51 <TD> (obviously apps run it in a background thread)
469 2012-12-07 15:57:32 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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474 2012-12-07 16:16:07 <TheSeven> so apparently I'm dealing with an android kernel bug. how do I make the right developers find my bug report?
475 2012-12-07 16:16:30 <TheSeven> I'm talking about https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=38830
476 2012-12-07 16:20:12 <TD> TheSeven: give it a week or so for somebody to triage, if that doesn't happen, poke me and i'll copy it into an internal bug report
477 2012-12-07 16:20:49 <TheSeven> TD: it's been there without activity for a month now
478 2012-12-07 16:21:07 ThomasV has joined
479 2012-12-07 16:21:07 <TD> ah ok
480 2012-12-07 16:21:11 <TD> right, didn't see that
481 2012-12-07 16:22:12 <TheSeven> thanks for taking care about it?
482 2012-12-07 16:22:17 <TheSeven> -?
483 2012-12-07 16:25:46 dvide has joined
484 2012-12-07 16:26:42 <TD> done
485 2012-12-07 16:26:59 davout has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
486 2012-12-07 16:27:05 <TheSeven> thanks again :)
487 2012-12-07 16:27:32 davout has joined
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489 2012-12-07 16:27:32 davout has joined
490 2012-12-07 16:27:33 <TD> np
491 2012-12-07 16:32:02 <TheSeven> it's really impressive that mentioning this in a completely unrelated channel seems to help - mentioning it several times in #android-dev didn't help at all...
492 2012-12-07 16:32:09 davout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
493 2012-12-07 16:34:46 toffoo has quit ()
494 2012-12-07 16:35:27 <helo> seven hours to network sync on head :/
495 2012-12-07 16:35:54 <helo> i am consistently slower than a few weeks ago, right around when ultraprune was merged
496 2012-12-07 16:36:40 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
497 2012-12-07 16:38:16 <sipa> helo: using -connect or just random peers?
498 2012-12-07 16:38:57 <helo> random peers
499 2012-12-07 16:39:27 <sipa> yeah, probably you get a lot of delay from the crappy IBD system
500 2012-12-07 16:39:41 <helo> was it made crappy recently?
501 2012-12-07 16:39:44 <sipa> no
502 2012-12-07 16:39:50 <helo> i guess i just got lucky before?
503 2012-12-07 16:39:56 <sipa> yes
504 2012-12-07 16:40:10 <sipa> plus of course the chain grows
505 2012-12-07 16:40:48 owowo has joined
506 2012-12-07 16:41:49 <helo> right... but this is about 75% longer :/
507 2012-12-07 16:44:01 <vazakl> bazugua
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517 2012-12-07 17:13:03 <Kuroro_> hi all , i want to start to develop a mining client but i don't know where to start somenone can point where to get info?
518 2012-12-07 17:19:30 <gavinandresen> mining client?  There is a sample mining client at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/contrib/pyminer
519 2012-12-07 17:20:46 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
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521 2012-12-07 17:21:06 <Jouke> omg, gavinandresen I think I have to start a new forum post. First some developer is against Iran, now against Rape? ... where will it end.
522 2012-12-07 17:23:04 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
523 2012-12-07 17:23:20 <Jouke> wait, how did that get into this channel?
524 2012-12-07 17:23:34 <Jouke> my IRC-client is messing things up :(
525 2012-12-07 17:25:11 <Jouke> Second time today
526 2012-12-07 17:25:13 <Luke-Jr> Kuroro_: BFGminer could always use more developers too
527 2012-12-07 17:25:28 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
528 2012-12-07 17:26:56 davout has joined
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530 2012-12-07 17:26:56 davout has joined
531 2012-12-07 17:32:10 <Kuroro_> can you give me the webpage for BFGminer???
532 2012-12-07 17:33:11 bitcoinbulletin has joined
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534 2012-12-07 17:35:15 Kuroro_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
535 2012-12-07 17:37:20 daybyter has joined
536 2012-12-07 17:37:29 <midnightmagic> Wait, there's a developer against Iran..?!
537 2012-12-07 17:37:39 asuk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
538 2012-12-07 17:38:54 <Jouke> Yeah, I was nog serious.
539 2012-12-07 17:38:59 <Jouke> *not
540 2012-12-07 17:39:00 <midnightmagic> :P
541 2012-12-07 17:39:07 <midnightmagic> boo, I was hoping to get to mock someone.
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551 2012-12-07 18:11:11 <zeks2> anyone?
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567 2012-12-07 19:33:39 <D34TH> for some reason, bitcoin-qt is autostarting when my pc starts
568 2012-12-07 19:33:42 toffoo has joined
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578 2012-12-07 20:00:00 <helo> is it not set to start when your pc starts?
579 2012-12-07 20:02:00 <D34TH> it was
580 2012-12-07 20:02:06 <D34TH> it randomly added it
581 2012-12-07 20:02:52 davout has joined
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583 2012-12-07 20:02:52 davout has joined
584 2012-12-07 20:03:21 <D34TH> **it wasn't
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647 2012-12-07 22:27:40 <Luke-Jr> sigh bitcointalk… "HOW TO SET UP CGMINER FOR LITECOIN MINING..PLZ EXPLAIN IN DETAIL.TNXX"
648 2012-12-07 22:35:50 <wizkid057> so, devs... what ever happened to P2SH related stuff? is this ever going to actually be able to be used? seems like it was pushed pretty hard a year ago and now... still cant really use it
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650 2012-12-07 22:36:10 <btc123> anyone know of a free web API that will generate a QR code if i submit a Address AND amount?   (blockchain seems to only give the QR code for an address)
651 2012-12-07 22:36:54 <BlueMatt> just do the url yourself and use one of the many qr code generators that will generate one from a url
652 2012-12-07 22:37:23 <Luke-Jr> btc123: Bitcoin-Qt can generate them…
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656 2012-12-07 22:41:50 <BlueMatt> TD[gone]: give it a day and try my dnsseed's response time again :)
657 2012-12-07 22:42:06 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yours is now not the only one on a global set of quality dns servers :)
658 2012-12-07 22:42:40 <btc123> Luke-Jr: thanks,
659 2012-12-07 22:43:38 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, would you like my database of active peers
660 2012-12-07 22:43:50 <phantomcircuit> it's scanning the entire network about once every 8 minutes...
661 2012-12-07 22:43:50 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: I have my own dnsseed
662 2012-12-07 22:43:59 <BlueMatt> (that does the equivalent)
663 2012-12-07 22:44:03 <phantomcircuit> k
664 2012-12-07 22:44:31 <sipa> wizkid057: 1. protocol/network support  2. client support  3. transaction negotiation  4. services on top of it
665 2012-12-07 22:44:39 <sipa> wizkid057: 1. and 2. are done :)
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667 2012-12-07 22:45:25 <wizkid057> client support? how so... dont see how to send from a multisig address easily in the client/RPC...
668 2012-12-07 22:45:58 <sipa> raw transaction API
669 2012-12-07 22:46:19 <sipa> the "easily" part will require services to use it
670 2012-12-07 22:46:19 <wizkid057> ok, so I need custom code to sign the transaction then?
671 2012-12-07 22:46:32 <sipa> signing the transaction can be done by bitcoind
672 2012-12-07 22:46:39 <jgarzik> bitcoind can sign
673 2012-12-07 22:46:44 <maaku> wizkid057: you can do multi-sig from the command line
674 2012-12-07 22:47:42 <wizkid057> interesting
675 2012-12-07 22:48:08 <sipa> signrawtransaction will take an unsigned transaction, and sign whatever it can find keys for
676 2012-12-07 22:48:44 <wizkid057> it'll accept private keys as args?
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678 2012-12-07 22:49:05 <sipa> iirc yes
679 2012-12-07 22:49:16 <wizkid057> interesting
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681 2012-12-07 22:50:02 <gmaxwell> Yes, and also satisify things out of the wallet.. there was a limit for offline signing with external private keys and p2sh but I think the patch for thats been merged (you need to also provide the script)
682 2012-12-07 22:51:03 <sipa> iirc that was merged yes
683 2012-12-07 22:53:04 <wizkid057> i'll have to mess with it again at some point then
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685 2012-12-07 22:53:22 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: I put up tutorials for some of this. I .. really thought I showed them to you before!
686 2012-12-07 22:53:32 <wizkid057> hm, dont think so
687 2012-12-07 22:53:53 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: in any case, https://people.xiph.org/~greg/escrowexample.txt
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690 2012-12-07 22:58:33 <wizkid057> i had an idea for something that would make use out of this functionality a while back.  might look into it more now that there is at least some way of completing the transactions
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694 2012-12-07 23:05:19 <lasento486> in what way is the nonce changed in the loop?
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697 2012-12-07 23:06:46 <sipa> ++
698 2012-12-07 23:07:05 <lasento486> oh
699 2012-12-07 23:07:11 <lasento486> was thinking it was more complex.
700 2012-12-07 23:07:13 <lasento486> thanks
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705 2012-12-07 23:15:50 <Luke-Jr> lasento486: there's no need for any particular order, though; many devices (GPUs especially) do a bunch in parallel
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709 2012-12-07 23:35:58 <lasento486> Luke-Jr,  that was my next question thanks
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