1 2012-12-09 00:04:42 <jgarzik> leveldb was definitely designed to group related elements together
  2 2012-12-09 00:04:55 <jgarzik> where "related" is defined as consecutive keyspace
  3 2012-12-09 00:14:50 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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  6 2012-12-09 00:22:20 att__ is now known as att_
  7 2012-12-09 00:23:00 att_ is now known as att__
  8 2012-12-09 00:24:50 <D34TH> now can we `group` transactions together and make it the wallet instead of bdb?
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 17 2012-12-09 00:39:29 <gmaxwell> D34TH: uhhh. the user of bdb for the wallet has absolutly nothing to do with grouping.
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 20 2012-12-09 00:39:46 <gmaxwell> The wallet uses bdb for compatiblity and because just changing it to level db doesn't buy anything.
 21 2012-12-09 00:42:53 <jgarzik> chain-verf: spend block @ 150000
 22 2012-12-09 00:42:54 <jgarzik> w00t!
 23 2012-12-09 00:43:05 <jgarzik>  5820 jgarzik   20   0 1155m 1.0g 2204 R 98.6 27.2   1042:24 memcheck-amd64-
 24 2012-12-09 00:43:31 <jgarzik> I think I might have the RAM, but at this rate, it will take a week :)
 25 2012-12-09 00:43:47 <sipa> TD[gone]: Hal just confirmed to me that he indeed already did the proposed optimization
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 31 2012-12-09 01:04:01 <jgarzik> sipa: just looked at the linked post... it should be faster allocate BIGNUM on the stack + BN_init().  worth benchmarking at least.
 32 2012-12-09 01:06:26 <jgarzik> stack BIGNUM + BN_init() eliminates one malloc/free for each bignum
 33 2012-12-09 01:06:31 <jgarzik> versus BN_new()
 34 2012-12-09 01:06:48 <jgarzik> same amount of internal allocations, either way, for the numeric data itself
 35 2012-12-09 01:10:15 <jgarzik> sipa: plugged your test thread on reddit
 36 2012-12-09 01:10:19 <gmaxwell> jemalloc says that during a coins rebuild to height 210000 we're doing 3.8 billion allocations of size 16-32.
 37 2012-12-09 01:10:25 <jgarzik> sipa: you should post it to google communities too
 38 2012-12-09 01:10:49 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: is that with or without Hal's opt?
 39 2012-12-09 01:10:54 <gmaxwell> thats with.
 40 2012-12-09 01:11:25 <jgarzik> yeah, it definitely wants the aforementioned stack treatment
 41 2012-12-09 01:11:32 * jgarzik goes to look at OpenSSL's ECDSA code
 42 2012-12-09 01:11:33 <gmaxwell> but that also amounts to a bit over 400 per transaction, so getting some out of hal will help but won't magically make the number of allocations small. :P
 43 2012-12-09 01:12:20 <gmaxwell> Hm. I want instrumentation that tells me about every heap allocation which is freed within 1ms. :P
 44 2012-12-09 01:12:37 <sipa> sure, almost all will be in per-txin code
 45 2012-12-09 01:13:06 <sipa> jgarzik: hmm, i wonder why no OpenSSL code allocates BIGNUMs on the stack
 46 2012-12-09 01:13:48 da2ce720 has joined
 47 2012-12-09 01:14:01 <jgarzik> sipa: looking at ecdsa_do_verify(), it looks like allocs might be grouped
 48 2012-12-09 01:14:08 <jgarzik> whereas Hal just does BN_new()
 49 2012-12-09 01:14:27 <gmaxwell> well for BN_new it can get resized, no?
 50 2012-12-09 01:15:36 <jgarzik> Confirmed.  Internally, OpenSSL calls BN_CTX_get() which provides a pool of temporaries.
 51 2012-12-09 01:15:53 <jgarzik> All freed with          BN_CTX_end(ctx);
 52 2012-12-09 01:15:53 <jgarzik>         BN_CTX_free(ctx);
 53 2012-12-09 01:16:05 <sipa> jgarzik: see "my" Hal code
 54 2012-12-09 01:16:10 <sipa> that's the first thing i changed
 55 2012-12-09 01:16:15 <jgarzik> ok :)
 56 2012-12-09 01:16:44 <sipa> I also precalculate Glam, bnn, bnp, ... now
 57 2012-12-09 01:17:30 ThomasV_ has joined
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 59 2012-12-09 01:17:40 <sipa> btw, benchmark of rebuilding 193k->211k with -par=6: 14:40 without halcode, 12:00 with halcode
 60 2012-12-09 01:19:02 <jgarzik> hmmm
 61 2012-12-09 01:19:06 <slush> is there any graph displaying blocks v1 versus v2?
 62 2012-12-09 01:19:13 <slush> well - there is one, but I lost URL
 63 2012-12-09 01:19:19 * jgarzik is tempted to turn on CPU mining for mainnet.  Seriously.  :)
 64 2012-12-09 01:19:33 <jgarzik> Would be a useful ultraprune test
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 66 2012-12-09 01:20:14 <sipa> jgarzik: i've already mined a *block* with ultraprune :)
 67 2012-12-09 01:20:17 <jgarzik> Exercise more code, even if the likelihood of solving a block is infinitesimal
 68 2012-12-09 01:20:29 <sipa> (p2pool, but still)
 69 2012-12-09 01:20:33 <jgarzik> heh
 70 2012-12-09 01:21:21 <gmaxwell> I've had cpu mining enabled w/ ultraprune on mainnet at one point, though not at the moment. Obviously I'm mining with it on testnet.
 71 2012-12-09 01:22:18 <jgarzik> stored orphan tx 9066f46261 (mapsz 10000)
 72 2012-12-09 01:22:57 <jgarzik> lotsa orphans, compared to 0.7.1:
 73 2012-12-09 01:22:59 <jgarzik> stored orphan tx 8b3cd52c7b (mapsz 103)
 74 2012-12-09 01:23:04 <jgarzik> uptimes vaguely similar
 75 2012-12-09 01:23:41 <slush> ok, here it is http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/top.php
 76 2012-12-09 01:23:58 <sipa> jgarzik: yes, rebroadcasts of fully spent transactions end up as orphans in HEAD
 77 2012-12-09 01:24:05 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: this is because recently mined and consumed txn that get rebroadcast (why?) are 'orphans'.
 78 2012-12-09 01:24:48 <jgarzik> sipa: boy it just shit itself
 79 2012-12-09 01:24:50 <jgarzik> [jgarzik@us2 ~]$ grep -c 'ERROR: mempool transaction missing input' /spare/bitcoin/data/debug.log
 80 2012-12-09 01:24:50 <jgarzik> 6216
 81 2012-12-09 01:25:04 <jgarzik> in less than 60 seconds, since CPU mining enabled
 82 2012-12-09 01:25:43 <gmaxwell> what version are you running?
 83 2012-12-09 01:26:06 <gmaxwell> (bugs that could result in crud in the mempool were fixed recently)
 84 2012-12-09 01:26:16 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: HEAD, as of a few minutes ago
 85 2012-12-09 01:26:20 <jgarzik> CreateNewBlock(): total size 38755
 86 2012-12-09 01:26:20 <jgarzik> Running BitcoinMiner with 112 transactions in block (37976 bytes)
 87 2012-12-09 01:26:20 <jgarzik> CTxMemPool::accept() : accepted 7ac1f541cf (poolsz 3814)
 88 2012-12-09 01:26:28 <jgarzik> love the compare/contrast :)
 89 2012-12-09 01:26:35 <jgarzik> 122 vs. 3814 :)
 90 2012-12-09 01:26:39 <jgarzik> *112
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 93 2012-12-09 01:28:31 <sipa> jgarzik: sure those mempool tx missing input error are from recent HEAD?
 94 2012-12-09 01:29:01 <jgarzik> sipa: hmmm
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 96 2012-12-09 01:29:23 <jgarzik> From git://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
 97 2012-12-09 01:29:23 <jgarzik>    5c37be2..622da5d  master     -> origin/master
 98 2012-12-09 01:29:23 <jgarzik> Updating 5c37be2..622da5d
 99 2012-12-09 01:29:29 <jgarzik> perhaps it was older than I thought
100 2012-12-09 01:29:59 <jgarzik> sipa: circa Nov 27
101 2012-12-09 01:31:02 BCBot2` has joined
102 2012-12-09 01:32:18 <sipa> 5c37be2 didn't include that fix
103 2012-12-09 01:32:19 da2ce794 has joined
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107 2012-12-09 01:35:47 <jgarzik> sipa: sorry for the noise.  too many public nodes.  the $other one is running HEAD.  just updated that one to HEAD as well.
108 2012-12-09 01:37:08 <sipa> np
109 2012-12-09 01:40:00 <sipa> slush, kinlo: interesting site
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113 2012-12-09 01:44:29 <kinlo> sipa: ?
114 2012-12-09 01:44:57 sl33p3r_ has joined
115 2012-12-09 01:45:16 <kinlo> oh right
116 2012-12-09 01:45:21 <kinlo> :)
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121 2012-12-09 01:52:34 sl33p3r_ is now known as sl33p3r
122 2012-12-09 01:53:35 <sipa> reddit down?
123 2012-12-09 01:53:48 da2ce794 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
124 2012-12-09 01:54:22 <sipa> wait... my DNS is down
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128 2012-12-09 02:53:51 <Luke-Jr> I guess we're teaching people English with the GitHub Issue tracker now…
129 2012-12-09 02:54:48 elkingrey has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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132 2012-12-09 02:57:39 <sipa> Luke-Jr: post a list to translate.google.com ?
133 2012-12-09 02:57:44 <sipa> *link
134 2012-12-09 02:58:17 elkingrey has joined
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136 2012-12-09 02:59:47 <Luke-Jr> sipa: tempting
137 2012-12-09 03:02:19 raad287 has joined
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145 2012-12-09 03:31:10 <SomeoneWeird> is there a good C++ btc lib?
146 2012-12-09 03:36:53 <vazakl> libbitcoin
147 2012-12-09 03:39:33 dvide has joined
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150 2012-12-09 03:51:15 <SomeoneWeird> isn't libbitcoin py?
151 2012-12-09 03:51:20 <SomeoneWeird> http://bitcoinmedia.com/libbitcoin-first-steps/
152 2012-12-09 03:51:44 <SomeoneWeird> at least, it definitely LOOKS like python :p
153 2012-12-09 03:55:01 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
154 2012-12-09 03:57:05 <jgarzik> If you want a python lib, you want /bitcoin/ of https://github.com/jgarzik/pynode/
155 2012-12-09 03:57:19 <jgarzik> (for the public record; I know SomeoneWeird asked about C++)
156 2012-12-09 03:57:46 <SomeoneWeird> :)
157 2012-12-09 03:57:47 <jgarzik> SomeoneWeird: for C++ I thought there was libcoin and libbitcoin
158 2012-12-09 03:57:55 <jgarzik> where libbitcoin is -not- python
159 2012-12-09 03:58:04 <SomeoneWeird> hrm
160 2012-12-09 03:58:14 <SomeoneWeird> it says it has a C++ api yet I can't find in docs for it
161 2012-12-09 03:58:52 <jgarzik> SomeoneWeird: https://github.com/libcoin/libcoin   (NOTE: _not_ a recommendation, just a link; I think the author is MIA)
162 2012-12-09 03:59:11 <jgarzik> and you can always use my C lib </plug>
163 2012-12-09 03:59:54 <SomeoneWeird> link to that? :)
164 2012-12-09 04:00:43 <jgarzik> SomeoneWeird: https://github.com/jgarzik/picocoin/
165 2012-12-09 04:09:44 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
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167 2012-12-09 04:13:18 <vazakl> picocoin? looks cool
168 2012-12-09 04:13:23 <vazakl> haven't heard about that till now
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181 2012-12-09 04:49:41 <etotheipi_> anyone else find this tx concerning?  http://blockchain.info/tx/9106ac6859097079d39127aaac86208ac2a2b9bade92c3ae109192b7bc340872
182 2012-12-09 04:50:05 <etotheipi_> the guy is doing an excellent job spamming...
183 2012-12-09 04:50:40 <etotheipi_> and for some reason wants to link all those addresses to an inappropriate "Public Note"
184 2012-12-09 04:52:53 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: sounds like something to take to #blockchain.info, not #bitcoin-dev. :P
185 2012-12-09 04:54:00 raad287 has joined
186 2012-12-09 04:54:09 <etotheipi_> just making others aware, Bitcoin Foundation and Bitcointalk Forums are on that list, too
187 2012-12-09 04:56:47 <noagendamarket> lol
188 2012-12-09 05:02:53 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: so blockchain.info should just delete the note
189 2012-12-09 05:21:11 maaku has joined
190 2012-12-09 05:36:48 Gladamas has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 90 seconds.)
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195 2012-12-09 05:48:26 Gladamas has joined
196 2012-12-09 05:51:31 bcb has joined
197 2012-12-09 05:52:01 <bcb> how can I verify a message in a text file with a bitcoin address?
198 2012-12-09 05:53:17 <bcb> bitcoind <btcaddress> <sig> message.txt
199 2012-12-09 05:54:38 <gmaxwell> bitcoind <btcaddress> <sig> `cat message.txt`
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203 2012-12-09 05:56:43 <bcb> gmaxwell negative
204 2012-12-09 05:57:52 <bcb> "message.txt"
205 2012-12-09 05:57:56 <bcb> 'message.txt'
206 2012-12-09 05:58:09 <bcb> * 'cat message.txt'
207 2012-12-09 05:58:15 <bcb> * "cat message.txt"
208 2012-12-09 05:59:25 maaku has joined
209 2012-12-09 06:00:44 <gmaxwell> ` is not '
210 2012-12-09 06:00:51 <gmaxwell> and are you on windows? that won't work on windows.
211 2012-12-09 06:01:01 <gmaxwell> on windows you're out of luck. put the content on the commandline.
212 2012-12-09 06:01:27 pacpac has joined
213 2012-12-09 06:01:38 <Luke-Jr> or use the GUI…
214 2012-12-09 06:02:16 <bcb> linux
215 2012-12-09 06:02:32 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: the gui doesn't let you use a file does it?
216 2012-12-09 06:02:43 <gmaxwell> bcb: then what I said, exactly, will work.
217 2012-12-09 06:02:53 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no, but it lets you reasonably put a lot of text content in the verification
218 2012-12-09 06:02:57 <gmaxwell> but what I said with random changes, will not.
219 2012-12-09 06:03:40 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: does POSIX `` properly quote? :o
220 2012-12-09 06:03:53 <bcb> `cat message.txt` returns error: {"code":-1,"message":"verifymessage <bitcoinaddress> <signature> <message>\nVerify a signed message"}
221 2012-12-09 06:04:23 <Luke-Jr> bcb: try: bitcoind <bcaddress> "<sig>" "$(<message.txt)"
222 2012-12-09 06:05:01 <bcb> luke-jr worked - thx
223 2012-12-09 06:05:25 * Luke-Jr ponders which part made the difference :P
224 2012-12-09 06:05:55 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: hah, we both missed the verifymessage command bit :P
225 2012-12-09 06:06:34 <bcb> no i used verifymessage
226 2012-12-09 06:06:41 <bcb> `message.txt`
227 2012-12-09 06:06:44 <bcb> didn't work ??
228 2012-12-09 06:08:31 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
229 2012-12-09 06:09:07 <Luke-Jr> bcb: with `` you need the cat command
230 2012-12-09 06:09:28 <bcb> `cat message.txt` didn't work
231 2012-12-09 06:10:09 maaku has joined
232 2012-12-09 06:10:43 <gmaxwell> bcb: does your message have spaces in it?
233 2012-12-09 06:10:58 <bcb> yes
234 2012-12-09 06:11:21 <bcb> and line breaks
235 2012-12-09 06:12:20 <gmaxwell> may need to do something like
236 2012-12-09 06:12:31 <gmaxwell> \"`cat message.txt`\"
237 2012-12-09 06:14:45 <bcb> nope
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239 2012-12-09 06:14:54 <bcb> np the other way worked - just curious
240 2012-12-09 06:15:02 <bcb> could I cat to an env?
241 2012-12-09 06:15:30 <SomeoneWeird> ?
242 2012-12-09 06:16:39 <bcb> someoneweird you get my PM
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248 2012-12-09 06:46:19 <jgarzik> evorhees, on reddit: "Further, SD increased the minimum bets to .01 btc, so it's not like "dust" or spam transactions are even occurring at all."  http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/14i9e7/your_stance_toward_satoshidice/
249 2012-12-09 06:46:30 <jgarzik> That seems to conflict with the claim that losing bets get sent dust.
250 2012-12-09 06:56:48 * jgarzik trolls sipa and gmaxwell for upvotes ;p   http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/14i9e7/your_stance_toward_satoshidice/c7dkrmh
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255 2012-12-09 07:16:28 <bcb> how do I open a wallet.dat file on v0.7.1-beta on windows
256 2012-12-09 07:16:39 <bcb> a different wallet.dat
257 2012-12-09 07:16:55 <sipa> for now: put
258 2012-12-09 07:17:16 <sipa> it in the place of your existing one
259 2012-12-09 07:17:28 <bcb> yes
260 2012-12-09 07:17:34 <sipa> jgarzik: willdo; can you do the same?
261 2012-12-09 07:18:55 MC1984 has joined
262 2012-12-09 07:19:25 <jgarzik> done, I just see the one from you
263 2012-12-09 07:20:00 <bcb> how did I locate wich file the client is currently accessing
264 2012-12-09 07:20:04 <bcb> on windoze
265 2012-12-09 07:20:59 <MC1984> process explorer
266 2012-12-09 07:23:24 <bcb> * which wallet.dat file the client is accessing
267 2012-12-09 07:23:51 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
268 2012-12-09 07:23:52 <sipa> ;;google bitcoin data directory
269 2012-12-09 07:23:53 <gribble> Data directory - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Data_directory>; Securing your wallet - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Securing_your_wallet>; Running Bitcoin - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Running_Bitcoin>
270 2012-12-09 07:24:10 <sipa> bcb: ^
271 2012-12-09 07:25:12 denisx has joined
272 2012-12-09 07:25:26 <bcb> sipa ty
273 2012-12-09 07:26:05 <jgarzik> sipa: hah.  -benchmark is turning into an important psychological hack ;p  "How fast does my hardware go, on this software?" is a question geeks love to answer.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=129861.0
274 2012-12-09 07:26:27 <jgarzik> myself included... I need to try that branch ;p
275 2012-12-09 07:29:09 bcb has quit ()
276 2012-12-09 07:32:44 <jgarzik> chain-verf: spend block @ 160000
277 2012-12-09 07:32:45 <jgarzik>  5820 jgarzik   20   0 1280m 1.2g 2200 R 98.6 30.4   1448:32 memcheck-amd64-
278 2012-12-09 07:33:06 <denisx> no freebsd or osx build for me ;(
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336 2012-12-09 11:30:17 <denisx> jgarzik: you started cpu miner nov 2010, what was used before? what did satoshi use?
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339 2012-12-09 11:37:39 <slush1> denisx: satoshi client had cpu miner inside
340 2012-12-09 11:38:45 <denisx> slush1: oh yeah, I forgot
341 2012-12-09 11:44:00 <denisx> snowing here in berlin
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350 2012-12-09 12:19:44 <sipa> denisx: that built-in miner even still exists, and it is far faster than the version in satoshi's original code
351 2012-12-09 12:20:29 <denisx> sipa: yes, I simply forgot it
352 2012-12-09 12:20:29 <sipa> TD: Hal confirmed he indeed already did the optimization
353 2012-12-09 12:20:36 <TD> ah
354 2012-12-09 12:21:09 <sipa> jgarzik: none of the reported speeds even include -benchmark output
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389 2012-12-09 15:30:25 <zeks2> Can someone help me to setup bitcoin mining pool?:) I can pay if needed?
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399 2012-12-09 16:13:28 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, sipa: what's the chance that in a hard fork we could update the TxIn serialization/format to include the 8-byte input values?
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403 2012-12-09 16:17:32 <etotheipi_> ever since I had that one person send me a 90kB tx that had 4 MB of supporting tx...and trying to help out the HW wallet guys, it's unnecessarily bloat-y to not have txIns standalone
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408 2012-12-09 16:20:38 <sipa> etotheipi_: what's the point of having the value if you don't have the txout?
409 2012-12-09 16:20:46 <sipa> *txout script
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412 2012-12-09 16:23:06 <etotheipi_> sipa: for offline verification
413 2012-12-09 16:23:23 <sipa> and more generally... the reason to have supporting transactions is so they can be relayed to be included in blocks
414 2012-12-09 16:23:32 <sipa> nothing except the full transactions will do
415 2012-12-09 16:23:44 <etotheipi_> if the value is part of the serialization, the offline system can confirm everything it needs to know that the tx is either exactly what it thinks it is, or invalid
416 2012-12-09 16:23:49 <Diablo-D3> >90kb tx
417 2012-12-09 16:23:51 <etotheipi_> but not malicious
418 2012-12-09 16:23:54 <Diablo-D3> >4mb supporting tx
419 2012-12-09 16:24:00 <Diablo-D3> it wasnt me was it?
420 2012-12-09 16:24:08 <etotheipi_> Diablo-D3: it was 483 inputs
421 2012-12-09 16:24:16 <Diablo-D3> miiiiight have been me
422 2012-12-09 16:24:24 <etotheipi_> I recommended the guy try to split it up, but it was still a pain
423 2012-12-09 16:24:25 <sipa> etotheipi_:but you can claim any value there
424 2012-12-09 16:24:26 <Diablo-D3> some asshole sent me 10btc in 0.001 increments
425 2012-12-09 16:24:28 <Diablo-D3> with fees off.
426 2012-12-09 16:24:42 <sipa> etotheipi_: if you're offline there is no way to verify those values match the true values of those txouts
427 2012-12-09 16:24:42 <Diablo-D3> it took the network 28 hours to include them all in blocks
428 2012-12-09 16:24:44 <etotheipi_> sipa: if it's part of the serialization
429 2012-12-09 16:25:03 <etotheipi_> then the tx will be invalid if the wrong value is signed
430 2012-12-09 16:25:04 <Diablo-D3> for months I had to pay fees out my ass
431 2012-12-09 16:25:22 <Diablo-D3> because it basically posioned my entire wallet with useless ammounts
432 2012-12-09 16:25:29 <sipa> etotheipi_: yes, so? you can only verify that if you have a UTXO set anyway
433 2012-12-09 16:25:37 <sipa> etotheipi_: with or without amounts in the txin
434 2012-12-09 16:26:05 <etotheipi_> sipa: in this situation the online computer makes the tx
435 2012-12-09 16:26:15 <etotheipi_> saves it to a USB key and takes it to the offline computer
436 2012-12-09 16:26:39 <etotheipi_> the offline computer parses it and says "this transaction is to send 33 BTC to address X.  Is this correct?"
437 2012-12-09 16:26:49 <Diablo-D3> etotheipi_: I dont see the point
438 2012-12-09 16:27:07 <etotheipi_> the problem with sending just the tx itself, is there's no way for the offline system to know how much fee is part of the tx
439 2012-12-09 16:27:15 <etotheipi_> that's the only thing it can't confirm
440 2012-12-09 16:27:16 <sipa> etotheipi_: to sign it, you need the txout scripts too, no?
441 2012-12-09 16:27:20 <sipa> not just the amounts
442 2012-12-09 16:27:31 <etotheipi_> sipa: the txout scripts were already injected into the tx by the online computer
443 2012-12-09 16:27:41 <etotheipi_> the tx is exactly as it needs to be for signing
444 2012-12-09 16:27:47 <sipa> so why not the amounts?
445 2012-12-09 16:27:59 <etotheipi_> it's just a matter of the offline computer not being able to be tricked into signing something else
446 2012-12-09 16:28:08 <etotheipi_> becuase the txout scripts are part of the signature
447 2012-12-09 16:28:18 <etotheipi_> if the wrong txout scipt is supplied, the resulting tx is invalid
448 2012-12-09 16:28:24 <sipa> ah
449 2012-12-09 16:28:35 <sipa> so what you want is the signaturehash to include the txout value?
450 2012-12-09 16:28:44 <etotheipi_> yes
451 2012-12-09 16:28:46 <sipa> not necessarily change the transaction format itself
452 2012-12-09 16:28:53 <etotheipi_> oooh, that's a good point
453 2012-12-09 16:29:03 <etotheipi_> I guess it wouldn't need to go into the serialization
454 2012-12-09 16:29:31 <etotheipi_> as usual, I saw that if you added it to the TxIn structure, it would be solved, but you're right
455 2012-12-09 16:29:47 <sipa> i think you just convinced me there is a use case (but i doubt it is the reason) for the prevout script to be included i nthe signaturehash
456 2012-12-09 16:30:40 <etotheipi_> sipa: the lack of this txout value is the sole reason I need to transfer the tx-to-be-signed, AND every tx supplying inputs to that tx
457 2012-12-09 16:30:55 <etotheipi_> so that the offline system can confirm the values of each input
458 2012-12-09 16:31:02 <sipa> yes, i see
459 2012-12-09 16:31:04 <etotheipi_> and match them against the OutPoints in the tx to be signed
460 2012-12-09 16:31:09 <sipa> never thought about thatr
461 2012-12-09 16:31:34 <etotheipi_> you do when you design an app to do offline transactions :)
462 2012-12-09 16:32:37 <etotheipi_> this has become a real pain for the guys working on the HW signing device
463 2012-12-09 16:32:49 <etotheipi_> because they now have to deal with [potentially] MB, instead of kB
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467 2012-12-09 16:33:48 <sipa> as to whether it's reasonable to make such a change in a potential hardfork... seems reasonable to me, but i have no clue when a hardfork would be viable at all
468 2012-12-09 16:33:59 <TD> i don't get it
469 2012-12-09 16:34:02 <etotheipi_> I wonder if this could be solved with just another SIGHASH_TYPE
470 2012-12-09 16:34:24 <TD> you want a hard fork just to avoid sending more data across a USB connection?
471 2012-12-09 16:34:32 <etotheipi_> TD: no...
472 2012-12-09 16:34:41 <etotheipi_> I just want it to be added the to the hardfork wishlist
473 2012-12-09 16:35:00 <etotheipi_> things that are reasonable to add IF a hard-fork change ever needs to be implemented
474 2012-12-09 16:35:02 <TD> why? i don't see any value to this
475 2012-12-09 16:35:11 <etotheipi_> but I wonder if the hashtype would solve this
476 2012-12-09 16:35:31 <sipa> sure a hastype would solve this, but adding a hashtype requires a hardfork
477 2012-12-09 16:36:02 <etotheipi_> sipa: whoops, duh
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479 2012-12-09 16:36:06 <TD> what is the attack this is designed to solve?
480 2012-12-09 16:36:25 <TD> a virus sends a tx to the hardware device that spends more money than expected into fees?
481 2012-12-09 16:36:41 <etotheipi_> TD: yes
482 2012-12-09 16:36:46 <etotheipi_> they can dump your whole wallet into fees
483 2012-12-09 16:36:50 <etotheipi_> and if the attacker is good
484 2012-12-09 16:36:57 <etotheipi_> they can intercept your broadcast and mine it themselves
485 2012-12-09 16:37:04 <etotheipi_> thus getting your whole wallet
486 2012-12-09 16:37:10 <gavinandresen> ... or sell it to a miner
487 2012-12-09 16:37:18 <TD> i'd imagined that the hardware device would actually run the wallet itself
488 2012-12-09 16:37:28 <TD> you're just trying to use it as a secure display device and signing button, then?
489 2012-12-09 16:37:34 <etotheipi_> TD: yes
490 2012-12-09 16:37:44 <etotheipi_> this HW device slush is working on has like 256 kB memory
491 2012-12-09 16:37:57 <TD> so just have the app on the computer present every transaction that is relevant to the wallet when it's received. it can store the tx hash (or part of it) along with the values.
492 2012-12-09 16:37:59 <etotheipi_> they're trying to figure out signing without even holding the entire tx in memory
493 2012-12-09 16:38:09 <TD> well, i suggest they get better hardware?
494 2012-12-09 16:38:25 <sipa> in any case, this is not something that can change any time soon
495 2012-12-09 16:38:31 <etotheipi_> TD... that's why I'm not encouraging any real changes here... only that it's a reasonable upgrade if there was already to be a hardfork
496 2012-12-09 16:38:58 <TD> i disagree it's even an upgrade
497 2012-12-09 16:39:01 <sipa> so they'd need to deal with it anyway, right now
498 2012-12-09 16:39:03 <TD> it complicates things quite a lot.
499 2012-12-09 16:39:21 <sipa> it isn't hard to implement, imho
500 2012-12-09 16:39:37 <TD> it introduces a new way for transactions to be invalid (if the duplicated data doesn't match)
501 2012-12-09 16:39:48 <sipa> TD: not at all, transactions don't change
502 2012-12-09 16:39:54 <sipa> just the signature hash changes
503 2012-12-09 16:39:55 <etotheipi_> TD, if it's implemented as a new hashtype, then it's fine
504 2012-12-09 16:40:32 <etotheipi_> old hashtype,  sign with (TxOutScript),  new hashtype:  sign with (TxOutScript||TxOutValue4Bytes)
505 2012-12-09 16:40:47 <etotheipi_> errr. 8B
506 2012-12-09 16:41:19 <etotheipi_> the goal is that we WANT minimal devices to be able to store and protect private keys offline
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508 2012-12-09 16:41:45 <etotheipi_> the more HW you need, and the more complex the system, the more vulnerable it will be
509 2012-12-09 16:41:54 <TD> ok, i guess you'd actually just sign the entire CTxOut structure
510 2012-12-09 16:42:03 <TD> a raspberry pi has half a gig of ram and costs $35
511 2012-12-09 16:42:23 <TD> so i don't find arguments based on hardware costs very persuasive. i think i mentioned to slush at the start he was going to have a hard time beating economies of scale
512 2012-12-09 16:42:33 <etotheipi_> TD: why should you need a whole computer to just run ECDSA signing
513 2012-12-09 16:42:39 * TD would start with re-purposed android phones
514 2012-12-09 16:42:52 <TD> well, you need a display, communication, a cpu, some RAM for it to work with and some storage
515 2012-12-09 16:42:54 <TD> sounds like a computer to me
516 2012-12-09 16:43:35 <etotheipi_> TD: I'm just saying that the complexity of passing around 483 supporting tx with your tx-to-be-signed is unnecessary, and also inelegant
517 2012-12-09 16:43:51 <etotheipi_> 4 MB to get a few 8-byte numbers
518 2012-12-09 16:44:08 <TD> well, as i said, if you assume some storage (and there must be some to hold the keys), then you can present the device with relevant transaction as they are received
519 2012-12-09 16:44:16 <sipa> well, if this argument was brought up when designing Bitcoin, i'd find it very convincing
520 2012-12-09 16:44:23 <TD> sure
521 2012-12-09 16:44:25 <TD> as it'd be a simple change
522 2012-12-09 16:44:30 <etotheipi_> agreed
523 2012-12-09 16:44:51 <TD> but doing any changes at all now is hard. just removing the 1mb limit will be hard and that's a very simple change, just replacing a constant with a little function
524 2012-12-09 16:44:52 <etotheipi_> so my only request was that it go on the hardfork wishlist
525 2012-12-09 16:45:04 <etotheipi_> and confirm that it's reasonable
526 2012-12-09 16:45:05 <gavinandresen> If I didn't already have a TODO list a mile long, I might start experimenting with new Script opcodes that decomposed OP_CHECKSIG (an idea sipa had a year or so ago)
527 2012-12-09 16:45:05 <sipa> etotheipi_: put it there
528 2012-12-09 16:45:22 <sipa> it's a wiki ffs
529 2012-12-09 16:46:07 <TD> yeah the bigness of CHECKSIG is a shame. not that i have any brilliant ideas of what to do with a decomposed version.
530 2012-12-09 16:46:17 <TD> most of the scripting language doesn't seem useful. nice that it's there though
531 2012-12-09 16:46:22 <gavinandresen> Relevant to this discussion because I think the hashtype flags are a hack-- if you had OP_PUSH opcodes that pushed the information that was hashed then you could do all sorts of nifty stuff
532 2012-12-09 16:46:36 <sipa> TD: https://gist.github.com/1262449
533 2012-12-09 16:46:55 <gavinandresen> ECC math opcodes would also be incredibly useful.
534 2012-12-09 16:47:47 <TD> for what?
535 2012-12-09 16:48:06 <gavinandresen> I actually sketched out some ideas (on paper) a week or two ago.  Bundle it all up in an OP_EVAL-like opcode that was a re-defined OP_NOP and you get a non-hard-forking brand-spanking-new scripting language
536 2012-12-09 16:48:32 <TD> i meant, what are the end-user applications that would become possible with the new capabilities
537 2012-12-09 16:48:38 <gavinandresen> ECC opcodes? I was thinking about how to tie a bitcoin payment to the disclosure of an encryption key
538 2012-12-09 16:49:04 <sipa> gavinandresen: if I'd rewrite Hal's code to be an exact copy of OpenSSL's ECDSA verification code, with the a*B+c*G operation replaced with a secp256k1-specific version (so it could be unit tested to be identical to OpenSSL's generic version)... would that make you trust it?
539 2012-12-09 16:49:08 <gavinandresen> .... so you could pay somebody to store data for you
540 2012-12-09 16:49:24 <TD> how does it work?
541 2012-12-09 16:49:38 <gavinandresen> sipa: a big-ass comment before all the ECC math explaining what it is doing and why it was faster would help me trust it.
542 2012-12-09 16:49:44 <TD> i mean, you can already pay people to store data
543 2012-12-09 16:49:56 <gavinandresen> sipa: but I still think that kind of low-level optimization would ideally be part of OpenSSL.
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545 2012-12-09 16:50:43 <gavinandresen> TD:  the idea was Alice gives Sam some data to store, under a key.  Bob comes along later and wants to pay Sam for the data, but Bob and Sam don't trust each other....
546 2012-12-09 16:51:30 <TD> so the money only moves if the key is correct?
547 2012-12-09 16:51:42 <gavinandresen> Right.  Shared key, blah blah blah...
548 2012-12-09 16:52:15 <gavinandresen> Don't push me on the details, I got myself deep down a rabbit hole thinking about it.
549 2012-12-09 16:52:39 asuk has joined
550 2012-12-09 16:52:59 <gavinandresen> Anyway, Sam spending the funds would reveal his half of the key, letting Bob decrypt the data
551 2012-12-09 16:54:32 <jgarzik> chain-verf: spend block @ 170000
552 2012-12-09 16:54:32 <TD> yeah i'm not sure a bitcoin tx is the right place to do that, given that checking the decryption is "correct" can be rather complicated (you'd have to try and parse the output to ensure it's really a PDF or JPEG or whatever)
553 2012-12-09 16:54:32 <jgarzik>  5820 jgarzik   20   0 1553m 1.4g 2208 R 98.6 37.3   2005:38 memcheck-amd64-
554 2012-12-09 16:54:36 <jgarzik> still alive!
555 2012-12-09 16:54:58 <johngriffith23> The logs for this channel are flaking out.
556 2012-12-09 16:55:03 <TD> right. time to head out for the evening.
557 2012-12-09 16:55:05 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
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559 2012-12-09 16:56:41 <johngriffith23> http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2012/12/08 Do you guys own this?
560 2012-12-09 16:57:22 <sipa> ha, everything is duplicated?
561 2012-12-09 16:57:31 <sipa> i don't know who manages those logs
562 2012-12-09 16:57:33 <gavinandresen> It was duplicated 3 or 4 times a couple of days ago
563 2012-12-09 16:57:48 gfinn has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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565 2012-12-09 16:58:26 <nanotube> it's whoever runs the logbot, and i don't recall who that is... maybe doublec?
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569 2012-12-09 17:05:16 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, what part of the original codebase isn't a hack? :P
570 2012-12-09 17:07:06 <johngriffith23> We have retards who still can't get the synced with the network. Sigh...
571 2012-12-09 17:11:49 <jgarzik> amusing that MPOE-PR added himself to the end: http://polimedia.us/trilema/2012/the-bitcoin-drama-timeline/
572 2012-12-09 17:11:57 <jgarzik> but hey, honesty++
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577 2012-12-09 17:23:27 <etotheipi_> I've brought this up before, but I don't remember the response:  is there any inclination for Bitcoin-Qt to support tx comments and address comments, separately?
578 2012-12-09 17:23:28 Gladamas has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 90 seconds.)
579 2012-12-09 17:23:47 <etotheipi_> the reason I ask, is that the "label=" and "message=" fields in the URI spec seem to accommodate this perfectly
580 2012-12-09 17:24:09 <etotheipi_> and it fits perfectly into Armory (which separates out the two, already), but is otherwise just redundant and confusing right now
581 2012-12-09 17:25:21 <etotheipi_> ("label" would be stored with the address, and "message" would be stored with the tx... thus you'd see "label" when viewing your address book, or see "message" when viewing your tx history)
582 2012-12-09 17:25:54 <sipa> internally, transactions have comments
583 2012-12-09 17:25:59 <sipa> at least in the wx GUI
584 2012-12-09 17:26:09 ciphermonk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
585 2012-12-09 17:26:13 <sipa> but i don't think the Qt GUI ever shows them
586 2012-12-09 17:26:44 slush1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
587 2012-12-09 17:27:24 <etotheipi_> hmm
588 2012-12-09 17:27:54 <etotheipi_> at the moment, I'm annoyed because I've had to "nerf" that feature by just concatenating "%s: %s" % (label,msg) into the label field
589 2012-12-09 17:27:57 <zeks2> Would someone setup for me on my server pushpool or bitcoind?
590 2012-12-09 17:28:31 <etotheipi_> ... because it sounded like "message" was just going to be ignored by Bitcoin-Qt
591 2012-12-09 17:29:04 <wumpus> sipa: how to set / get at them?
592 2012-12-09 17:29:57 <wumpus> can't remember ever seeing support for storing comments with transactions, even posted on the mailing list about it once, it would be pretty useful
593 2012-12-09 17:30:21 <sipa> no idea; check how sendtoaddress does it>
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596 2012-12-09 17:33:21 <etotheipi_> sipa: how much effort do you think it would be to accommodate that?  i.e. saving and showing tx comments, and changing URI-handling to accommodate?
597 2012-12-09 17:33:39 * sipa looks at wumpus 
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600 2012-12-09 17:35:51 <wumpus> I don't think it's too much work, do you plan on doing it?
601 2012-12-09 17:36:25 <sipa> i prefer not to touch GUI code if at all possible
602 2012-12-09 17:37:17 <wumpus> seems the comment is stored in "comment" in tx.mapValue
603 2012-12-09 17:37:38 ciphermonk has joined
604 2012-12-09 17:38:38 <wumpus> it's possible to view that field in the gui in the transaction details
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607 2012-12-09 17:40:21 <gmaxwell> sipa: there are some people in your test build thread posting long file sync / reindex times of 2-3 hours.  I wonder if they're really syncing from the network in those tests.
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613 2012-12-09 17:45:21 <wumpus> etotheipi_: I've created an issue for it just in case: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2086, I cannot guarantee getting around to implementing it any time soon
614 2012-12-09 17:46:06 <fiesh> sipa: do you have any idea if the HD-wallet approach will be in 0.8?
615 2012-12-09 17:47:33 <sipa> fiesh: can't guarantee that
616 2012-12-09 17:48:06 <fiesh> sipa: ok, thanks
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619 2012-12-09 18:04:57 <etotheipi_> wumpus: I would already be using it if it weren't for the Bitcoin-Qt behavior
620 2012-12-09 18:05:39 <wumpus> why? what prevents you from using it?
621 2012-12-09 18:05:45 <etotheipi_> instead, I've had to add extra complexity to my handling of the URIs, and removed the distinction between "label" and "field" entirely
622 2012-12-09 18:06:07 <etotheipi_> because if I use it the way that makes more sense for Armory, data is lost if the person clicking the link is using Bitcoin-Qt
623 2012-12-09 18:06:29 <wumpus> doesn't the BIP specify how the fields should be used?
624 2012-12-09 18:06:49 <etotheipi_> the message field is ignored, so Armory can't use that field if it wants that information to not be lost on Bitcoin-Qt users
625 2012-12-09 18:06:54 <etotheipi_> wumpus: not exactly
626 2012-12-09 18:07:32 <wumpus> the message is indeed a per-transaction message, the label is per-address
627 2012-12-09 18:08:07 <etotheipi_> yes, but Bitcoin-Qt doesn't even save the message field
628 2012-12-09 18:08:18 <etotheipi_> (at least that's what I remember from conversations in the past)
629 2012-12-09 18:08:28 <wumpus> I know, but that shouldn't prevent you from implementing it fully
630 2012-12-09 18:08:43 <wumpus> this is what the BIP says
631 2012-12-09 18:08:44 <wumpus> label: Label for that address (e.g. name of receiver) 
632 2012-12-09 18:08:52 <etotheipi_> wumpus: it means that I can't *use* the message field unless I know that the receiving user is an Armory user
633 2012-12-09 18:08:56 <wumpus> message: message that describes the transaction to the user (see examples below) 
634 2012-12-09 18:09:01 <wumpus> so it's pretty clear
635 2012-12-09 18:09:01 <etotheipi_> it is implemented though
636 2012-12-09 18:09:42 <etotheipi_> what armory would otherwise put into "label" and "message" fields, needs to be concatenated all into the "label" just so the data isn't lost when the clicking user is Bitcoin-Qt
637 2012-12-09 18:13:01 <etotheipi_> ...which also means that if the other person is using Armory, they don't get the benefit of the message field at all
638 2012-12-09 18:13:58 <wumpus> well, get someone to implement it for bitcoin-qt, it's not that we're against it, just very limited in development time right now
639 2012-12-09 18:14:20 <etotheipi_> wumpus: understood...
640 2012-12-09 18:14:39 <etotheipi_> the first step is making sure everyone agrees how it should be used and that it SHOULD be implemented
641 2012-12-09 18:15:02 caedes has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
642 2012-12-09 18:16:48 <wumpus> yes, I think we agree about that
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647 2012-12-09 18:37:09 <sipa> gavinandresen: somewhat more readable already?
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664 2012-12-09 19:48:05 <davout> sipa: i have a couple questions regarding all the improvements you made with ultraprune since 0.7ish, have a minute ?
665 2012-12-09 19:49:29 <davout> basically, from what i understand, the performance downloading/verifying the chain is vastly improved by ultraprune (and probably some other stuff i'm unaware of)
666 2012-12-09 19:50:00 <davout> i'm wondering about the improvements in scalabillity with very large wallets
667 2012-12-09 19:50:14 <sipa> nothing changed wrt. wallets
668 2012-12-09 19:50:19 <davout> aw
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670 2012-12-09 19:50:44 <davout> instawallet's wallet approaches 2gb and the client now takes almost an hour just to start up
671 2012-12-09 19:50:54 <sipa> wow :S
672 2012-12-09 19:51:24 <davout> yeah, as you say :)
673 2012-12-09 19:51:27 <sipa> the wallet code is problematic because it lacks many indexes and precomputed values, so it requires a linear scan over all transactions in it for many operations
674 2012-12-09 19:51:48 osmosis has joined
675 2012-12-09 19:51:50 <davout> yea, i figured something like that would be part of the causes
676 2012-12-09 19:51:58 <sipa> thatś certainly something that needs improvement, but it's entirely independent from the block validation mechanism
677 2012-12-09 19:52:07 <davout> instawallet is getting slightly slower everyday
678 2012-12-09 19:52:14 <davout> ok i see
679 2012-12-09 19:52:28 <davout> i guess i'll have to put my bitcoind cloud idea into practice :)
680 2012-12-09 19:53:06 <davout> have multiple instances of bitcoind with much smaller wallets, and track, for each instawallet, the bitcoind it belongs to
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683 2012-12-09 19:53:22 <sipa> that doesn't sound too hard
684 2012-12-09 19:53:29 <davout> but this solution is so ugly it makes me want to vomit
685 2012-12-09 19:53:31 <davout> :)
686 2012-12-09 19:53:48 <sipa> it certainly sounds unnecessary, but improving wallet performance has not bee a priority for me
687 2012-12-09 19:53:58 <davout> because first of all, i'll have to keep the obese wallet anyway for old wallets
688 2012-12-09 19:54:14 <davout> and secondly because managing cold-storage and backups are going to be a nightmare
689 2012-12-09 19:54:33 <davout> not even speaking of how funds will be sent
690 2012-12-09 19:55:09 <davout> but at least, what you tell me is very reassuring
691 2012-12-09 19:55:16 <davout> there is room for improvement :D
692 2012-12-09 19:56:04 <davout> anyway, thank you so much for all the work you've been doing on ultraprune et al.
693 2012-12-09 19:56:09 <davout> (and sorry for atlas XD)
694 2012-12-09 19:56:14 <sipa> ?
695 2012-12-09 19:56:20 <davout> nvm
696 2012-12-09 19:56:36 <sipa> sure... it's quite ridiculous that just to compute the balance of the wallet, we need to scan all transactions :S
697 2012-12-09 19:57:24 <ThomasV_> sipa: does that mean you're going to embrace the electrum model?
698 2012-12-09 19:58:02 <sipa> ThomasV_: if you mean clients that are not network nodes... hell no
699 2012-12-09 19:58:04 <ThomasV_> I mean, to have an address index
700 2012-12-09 19:58:43 <sipa> ThomasV_: by scanning all transactions i mean scanning all wallet transactions
701 2012-12-09 19:58:52 <sipa> not scanning the block chain
702 2012-12-09 19:59:03 <ThomasV_> oh ok
703 2012-12-09 19:59:12 <davout> lol
704 2012-12-09 20:01:57 <ThomasV_> instawallet uses a single bitcoind wallet?
705 2012-12-09 20:04:26 roconnor_ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
706 2012-12-09 20:12:36 Luke-Jr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
707 2012-12-09 20:12:47 <davout> ThomasV_: yes
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715 2012-12-09 20:28:54 <jgarzik> chain-verf: spend block @ 180000
716 2012-12-09 20:28:55 <jgarzik> 5820 jgarzik   20   0 1586m 1.5g 2208 R 98.6 38.1   2218:21 memcheck-amd64-
717 2012-12-09 20:29:00 <jgarzik> might survive to 210k
718 2012-12-09 20:32:48 * jgarzik watches sipa do all the hard work for halcode...
719 2012-12-09 20:32:55 <jgarzik> ...after which, I'll import into libccoin
720 2012-12-09 20:34:47 <sipa> haha
721 2012-12-09 20:35:21 <sipa> hal suggested another minor improvement, but i doubt it will give more than 1% speed gain
722 2012-12-09 20:38:44 <jgarzik> sipa: it is inevitable that the improvement will be implemented, then ;)
723 2012-12-09 20:39:45 <sipa> obviously!
724 2012-12-09 20:39:59 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
725 2012-12-09 20:41:36 <amiller> etotheipi_, sipa, i'm still hoping to revisit our conversation from a couple weeks ago about different the different forms of utxo commitment
726 2012-12-09 20:42:16 <etotheipi_> amiller: I am too... at some point :)
727 2012-12-09 20:42:26 <sipa> poke m
728 2012-12-09 20:42:27 gfinn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
729 2012-12-09 20:43:05 <etotheipi_> I'm just swamped with stuff, and enough Armory priorities to prevent me from branching off too widely right now
730 2012-12-09 20:43:06 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
731 2012-12-09 20:43:49 <amiller> mostly i'm pinging because i think i got you to understand things from my point of view last time and i'm hoping to figure out the rights words to use to preserve that
732 2012-12-09 20:44:27 <etotheipi_> amiller: I think sipa and I determined that all 3 of us are solving three different (but related problems)
733 2012-12-09 20:44:48 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
734 2012-12-09 20:44:56 <etotheipi_> I think sipa just wanted pruning, I wanted a UTXO set indexed by owner address, and you wanted lite-node-with-full-validation
735 2012-12-09 20:45:33 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
736 2012-12-09 20:45:42 <amiller> that sounds right
737 2012-12-09 20:46:20 <amiller> in terms of overlapping features then, my lite-node-with-full-validation also included a UTXO-indexed-by-owner
738 2012-12-09 20:46:24 <etotheipi_> your lite-node-with-full-val was an interesting concept, and our last conversation made more sense when I understood what we were talking about
739 2012-12-09 20:46:35 <sipa> well, i want a fully validating node to be able to bootstrap with SPV trust while only needing to download UTXO data
740 2012-12-09 20:47:13 <etotheipi_> but it sounded like we were never going to agree on the underlying structure until implementations exist that could be compared directly
741 2012-12-09 20:47:38 <amiller> well if we have three different sets of goals then we won't be able to agree on how to compare candidate implementations
742 2012-12-09 20:47:41 <etotheipi_> (in which case, you're winning by having something that looks like an implementation...)
743 2012-12-09 20:47:43 <amiller> maybe we can express this with a feature matrix or something?
744 2012-12-09 20:47:56 <etotheipi_> amiller: each goal is a superset of the previous goal
745 2012-12-09 20:48:04 <etotheipi_> if I understood coorectly
746 2012-12-09 20:48:26 <etotheipi_> my address-indexed structure can't exist without also implementing the simply-pruned UTXO tree
747 2012-12-09 20:48:37 <jgarzik> I want to create a fully validating, block serving node that keeps nothing in memory (but does mmap data files)
748 2012-12-09 20:48:37 <sipa> sure it can
749 2012-12-09 20:48:57 <amiller> jgarzik, how about a full-validating node that requires nothing on disk OR on memory?
750 2012-12-09 20:49:00 <etotheipi_> and yours would include mine by default
751 2012-12-09 20:49:17 <etotheipi_> jgarzik: I hope you're ready to stick to linux/osx then
752 2012-12-09 20:49:36 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
753 2012-12-09 20:49:38 <etotheipi_> I tried updating my blockchain utilities in Armory to use mmap, and it was a disaster on windows
754 2012-12-09 20:49:48 <etotheipi_> worked wonderfully on linux, though
755 2012-12-09 20:49:52 <jgarzik> ;p
756 2012-12-09 20:50:08 <etotheipi_> or maybe I was just doing it wrong...
757 2012-12-09 20:50:15 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
758 2012-12-09 20:50:51 <sipa> lwhat was hard on windows?
759 2012-12-09 20:50:56 <etotheipi_> I hope I never have to interact with windows.h or LPCTSTR or LPWSTR objects ever again
760 2012-12-09 20:51:37 <jgarzik> I know mmap works on Windows.  Just don't know how _well_ it works.  Plenty of big apps do use mmap on Windows.
761 2012-12-09 20:51:40 <etotheipi_> sipa: "mmap" on windows (MapOfFileView) felt like a hack... it was extremely poorly documented, required all the windows.h stuff, and in the end it was ridiculously slow
762 2012-12-09 20:51:46 <jgarzik> big iron databases etc.
763 2012-12-09 20:52:01 denisx_ has joined
764 2012-12-09 20:52:24 <etotheipi_> and I was occasionally getting mysterious crashes... though I'm sure that can be fixed if you figure out the windows.h stuff
765 2012-12-09 20:52:48 ThomasV_ has joined
766 2012-12-09 20:53:58 <amiller> etotheipi_, okay well it can wait until later to figure out what kind of comparisons/evaluations to do, 'full-validation-lite-node' is i think what i needed, i'm confident i can use that in the future and be synchronized with you :p
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769 2012-12-09 20:54:28 * amiller sets reminder at two week intervals
770 2012-12-09 20:54:42 <etotheipi_> amiller: I would really like to take this up at a time when I am able to start doing some kind of implementation
771 2012-12-09 20:55:02 <etotheipi_> but I'm afraid that might be a while, and the discussion shouldn't be skipped just because *I* am busy
772 2012-12-09 20:55:23 <sipa> i don't expect to have time for any of this soon either
773 2012-12-09 20:55:35 <amiller> me neither
774 2012-12-09 20:55:39 <etotheipi_> lol
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777 2012-12-09 20:56:13 <sipa> so: meeting adjourned; implementations delayd until further notice?
778 2012-12-09 20:56:13 <etotheipi_> in terms of priorities -- I think Bitcoin needs at least a SPV-space-but-full-node-security solution
779 2012-12-09 20:56:27 <sipa> etotheipi_: that's trivial
780 2012-12-09 20:56:29 <etotheipi_> but we have a year plus before it needs to happen
781 2012-12-09 20:56:39 <etotheipi_> *needs*
782 2012-12-09 20:56:43 <sipa> the problem is not needing to download the full chain
783 2012-12-09 20:56:51 <amiller> meeting adjourned, but to clarify, implementations + specifications are both delayed until further notice
784 2012-12-09 20:57:12 <amiller> we may make progress at some later point if i'm available for implementation and the two of you are available for spec/objectives/validation negotiation
785 2012-12-09 20:57:25 <amiller> or if we can trick someone else into implementing this stuff
786 2012-12-09 20:57:42 <sipa> but just so you know: latest multi-threaded script validation code verifies the entire chain in 15 minutes here
787 2012-12-09 20:57:58 <etotheipi_> sipa: I don't understand...
788 2012-12-09 20:58:24 <etotheipi_> "that's trivial"...?  what is?
789 2012-12-09 20:58:49 <sipa> if i just delete blocks in the current implementation, we're there
790 2012-12-09 20:59:01 <sipa> it still needs to download and process the entire history
791 2012-12-09 20:59:10 <sipa> but it doesn't need to store it
792 2012-12-09 20:59:23 <etotheipi_> sipa: oh, when I said "space" I meant "download"
793 2012-12-09 20:59:34 <etotheipi_> or rather, implied, the amount of data needed to download
794 2012-12-09 20:59:40 <sipa> i consider downloading a small problem :)
795 2012-12-09 20:59:52 <etotheipi_> I thought you were just about to tell me you already had a trivial solution to replace the meta-chain idea
796 2012-12-09 20:59:53 <etotheipi_> :)
797 2012-12-09 21:00:20 <sipa> people download multi-gigabyte files all the time already
798 2012-12-09 21:00:54 <etotheipi_> sipa: but it's going to more than "multi-gigabyte" in a few years....  and I think this solution will be *needed* by then
799 2012-12-09 21:01:08 <etotheipi_> but for now the ecosystem is surviving with the stress of current req'ts of full nodes
800 2012-12-09 21:01:15 <sipa> depends on the economic landscape
801 2012-12-09 21:01:49 <etotheipi_> sipa: worst case, blockchain accumulates 144 MB per day...
802 2012-12-09 21:01:50 <sipa> if by then every consumer is on SPV, and the nrcessary full node infrastructure exists and sustains the network, there's not really a problem
803 2012-12-09 21:02:56 <sipa> still, i would certainly like to have fully validating nodes just bootstrap from utxo sets
804 2012-12-09 21:03:08 <etotheipi_> sipa: agreed
805 2012-12-09 21:03:34 <amiller> (or bootstrap just from a header)
806 2012-12-09 21:03:35 <etotheipi_> I think that's my license to push this off for a while... it's a problem worth solving... but it's not a real problem for a while
807 2012-12-09 21:04:01 <amiller> is there any sort of forecast metric you'd use to notice when it's going to become a problem
808 2012-12-09 21:04:26 <etotheipi_> amiller: probably blockchain size relative to standard hard-drive size and or download speeds
809 2012-12-09 21:04:28 <amiller> like if your prediction is a few years, what kind of thing would shorten that
810 2012-12-09 21:04:40 <amiller> ok
811 2012-12-09 21:04:48 <etotheipi_> unfortunately, one of my biggest donors just contacted me
812 2012-12-09 21:04:59 <etotheipi_> complaining that he *can't* run a full node anymore
813 2012-12-09 21:05:08 <etotheipi_> he's in some place in the world where internet is shitty\
814 2012-12-09 21:05:22 <etotheipi_> and it would cost like $100 in pre-paid internet cards to download it
815 2012-12-09 21:05:47 <etotheipi_> and then synchronizing every day would pretty much prevent him from ever using it
816 2012-12-09 21:06:20 <Luke-Jr> ouch
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819 2012-12-09 21:07:00 <amiller> how much would it cost to mail a usb drive to him every day?
820 2012-12-09 21:07:10 <etotheipi_> haha
821 2012-12-09 21:09:15 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
822 2012-12-09 21:09:15 <gribble> 211556
823 2012-12-09 21:09:53 <etotheipi_> although it would be reasonable to mail him a DVD with blk0001.dat and blk0002.dat
824 2012-12-09 21:10:18 <etotheipi_> that way each rebuild requires 4GB less
825 2012-12-09 21:10:26 <sipa> better start working on a compact blockchain format :)
826 2012-12-09 21:10:26 <amiller> a micro sd card full of daily blockchain patches would be cheap in the post :p
827 2012-12-09 21:10:39 <amiller> you could have three of them and circulate them
828 2012-12-09 21:11:12 <etotheipi_> amiller: it'd be like blockchain-netflix
829 2012-12-09 21:11:19 <etotheipi_> blockflix?
830 2012-12-09 21:11:29 <amiller> coinflix
831 2012-12-09 21:11:34 owowo has joined
832 2012-12-09 21:12:30 <amiller> i imagine any place that has really bad internet also has a flaky postal service but who knows
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836 2012-12-09 21:22:24 <sipa> amiller: "excellent survey of drama and scams" sounds... really sad
837 2012-12-09 21:31:42 <nym> heya, i'm trying to integrate my django webapp, howdoyoubuybitcoins.com with bitcoin / webs of trust
838 2012-12-09 21:31:55 <nym> any suggested reads / codebases?
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846 2012-12-09 22:00:05 <slush> "TD: a raspberry pi has half a gig of ram and costs $35"
847 2012-12-09 22:00:32 <slush> TD: If you can build bitcoin wallet from raspberry, then you are probably not the target audience
848 2012-12-09 22:00:59 <slush> there are other reasons than cost. Obviously you're not taking your PC every day to your office, although they're much cheaper than notebooks
849 2012-12-09 22:02:34 <slush> also, you can build standalone raspi+display and run standalone/SPV bitcoin client there, but you're obviously geek, not common user
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851 2012-12-09 22:04:47 <amiller> nym, you may be interested in joining #bitcoin-wot and reading the info on http://bitcoin-otc.com/
852 2012-12-09 22:05:44 <sipa> slush: i think TD was simply saying that hardware like the Pi is enough, and not expensive
853 2012-12-09 22:06:03 <slush> sipa: by performance - yes. By format - definitely not
854 2012-12-09 22:06:28 <sipa> sure, but it also has a lot of things you don't need (like the ability to play 1080p video...)
855 2012-12-09 22:06:38 <slush> do TD really think that common user will keep raspberry in his pocket, to pay with it?
856 2012-12-09 22:06:55 <slush> of course. the platform we
857 2012-12-09 22:07:05 <slush> we're going to use is just a bit cheaper ARM processor
858 2012-12-09 22:18:44 <slush> btw Raspberry is, as a platform, pretty big fail.
859 2012-12-09 22:19:04 <sipa> how do you mean?
860 2012-12-09 22:19:12 <slush> I expected it's solid piece of hw, but I changed my mind after my experience with designing the wallet
861 2012-12-09 22:19:16 <sipa> it's a nice toy gor geek :p
862 2012-12-09 22:19:24 <sipa> *for
863 2012-12-09 22:19:51 <slush> SD card outside the credit card format - I already broke one card.
864 2012-12-09 22:20:01 <sipa> haha
865 2012-12-09 22:20:03 <slush> two serial ports on the same pinout
866 2012-12-09 22:20:08 <sipa> you get what you pay for, i guess :)
867 2012-12-09 22:20:20 <slush> I really didn't get that "two serial ports" feature
868 2012-12-09 22:20:36 <slush> missing USB client mode, because one of required pins was used for ethernet
869 2012-12-09 22:21:07 <jgarzik> chain-verf still at 180k blocks / 1.5G RAM
870 2012-12-09 22:21:17 * jgarzik thinks this test will stretch into next week
871 2012-12-09 22:21:42 <slush> "official" language for Rpi is python. wiringPi, "official" library for manipulating with hardware, has extremely buggy binding for python
872 2012-12-09 22:22:08 <slush> like we didn't get SPI interface working
873 2012-12-09 22:22:19 <slush> should I continue?
874 2012-12-09 22:22:32 <sipa> no need :p
875 2012-12-09 22:22:33 <slush> Yes, Rpi is nice geeky toy
876 2012-12-09 22:22:41 <slush> but not really usable for hardware hacking
877 2012-12-09 22:22:44 <sipa> i have one, but i haven't turned it on actually :S
878 2012-12-09 22:22:52 <slush> :)
879 2012-12-09 22:23:10 <slush> oh, I forgot, missing ADC
880 2012-12-09 22:23:15 <slush> that was facepalm
881 2012-12-09 22:26:52 <zeks2> What you guys think about BFL BitForce Single 'SC' , scam or no ?
882 2012-12-09 22:28:50 <jgarzik> impossible to know before March 2013. clear answer after March 2013.  the rest is offtopic for #bitcoindev.
883 2012-12-09 22:29:00 <jgarzik> please keep on #bitcoin
884 2012-12-09 22:29:52 <zeks2> ok sorry
885 2012-12-09 22:36:37 <sipa> jgarzik: what's that about MPOE-PR?
886 2012-12-09 22:37:25 <jgarzik> sipa: He added himself to the end of his own post, http://polimedia.us/trilema/2012/the-bitcoin-drama-timeline/
887 2012-12-09 22:37:32 <jgarzik> in response to reddit comments that he should
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889 2012-12-09 22:38:36 <sipa> ah, he made that site?
890 2012-12-09 22:38:55 <sipa> i'm not following
891 2012-12-09 22:40:05 <sipa> who is MPOE-PR?
892 2012-12-09 22:40:45 <gmaxwell> Mircea Popescu
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894 2012-12-09 22:41:21 <sipa> and he scammed people?
895 2012-12-09 22:42:19 <noagendamarket> pretty much
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899 2012-12-09 22:58:55 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 1000000
900 2012-12-09 22:58:56 <gribble> use the 'genrate' command instead
901 2012-12-09 22:59:01 <sipa> ;;genrate 1000
902 2012-12-09 22:59:02 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 3438908.96016, is 0.146242368181 BTC per day and 0.00609343200754 BTC per hour.
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906 2012-12-09 23:01:16 <zeks2> and difficulty always grow up ?and stays same reward or ?
907 2012-12-09 23:01:50 <sipa> difficulty goes up/down along with mining power on the network
908 2012-12-09 23:02:02 <sipa> eward will be 25 BTC per block + fees, for the coming 4 years
909 2012-12-09 23:02:17 <sipa> and the rest of your questions will likely be answered without problems on #bitcoin
910 2012-12-09 23:04:36 <zeks2> ok
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915 2012-12-09 23:08:56 <jgarzik> sipa: I haven't seen any claims that Mircea / MPOE scammed anybody.  He pasted the comment from Reddit verbatim, and the Reddit comment seems to accurately capture current sentiment ;p
916 2012-12-09 23:10:47 <davout> that sounds like something he'd do XD
917 2012-12-09 23:13:04 <jgarzik> the reddit comment (not written by mpoe): The only really amazing thing to me is that we haven’t seen this entry on the list:
918 2012-12-09 23:13:04 <jgarzik> “Shady ROMANIAN character opens up unregistered bitcoin options exchange (complete with HTML from 1993) on his personal website (which also hosts porn) and charges exorbitant fees just to join, while constantly accusing pretty much everyone else in the bitcoin community of being a scammer, and, along with his (possibly virtual) -PR lackey, acts like a loudmouthed douchebag … but apperantly scams no one.” (yet?)
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924 2012-12-09 23:18:13 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=121308.0 and related threads. MOPE was running a passthrough asset for gigamining. It's alleged the asset was unbacked. In any case its been delisted without reimbursing its holders. So at least theres your accusation.
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926 2012-12-09 23:18:40 <gmaxwell> MP is ... really shady. I agree its remarkable that it hasn't gone pear shaped.
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