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  5 2012-12-10 00:22:16 <sta> what is it that you can only say in private, gmaxwell?
  6 2012-12-10 00:23:27 <sta> i know this business works very "privately" sometimes
  7 2012-12-10 00:23:54 <sta> the public show is very well prepared
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 21 2012-12-10 00:44:48 <sipa> ;;later tell gavinandresen maybe a new checkpoint in 0.7.2 would be nice? if we wait a few more days, perhaps 210k?
 22 2012-12-10 00:44:48 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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 27 2012-12-10 00:58:45 <nym> thanks amiller !
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 33 2012-12-10 01:05:15 <jgarzik> connection from 89.204.139.16:37820 dropped (banned)
 34 2012-12-10 01:05:20 <jgarzik> go go DoS() :)
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 43 2012-12-10 01:11:17 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: what naughty thing was it doing?
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 45 2012-12-10 01:12:27 panzer has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 46 2012-12-10 01:13:01 <jgarzik> ERROR: CheckInputs() : bd9f2707e1 VerifySignature failed
 47 2012-12-10 01:13:01 <jgarzik> ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : ConnectInputs failed bd9f2707e1
 48 2012-12-10 01:13:01 <jgarzik> Misbehaving: 89.204.139.16:54695 (0 -> 100) DISCONNECTING
 49 2012-12-10 01:13:01 <jgarzik> disconnecting node 89.204.139.16:54695
 50 2012-12-10 01:13:15 <jgarzik> then further connections were labelled "banned"
 51 2012-12-10 01:14:04 sh4kad4rk has joined
 52 2012-12-10 01:14:06 <jgarzik> receive version message: version 60001, blocks=211140, us=127.0.0.1:8333, them=1
 53 2012-12-10 01:14:06 <jgarzik> 27.0.0.1:8333, peer=89.204.139.16:54695
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 57 2012-12-10 01:17:59 <vazakl> nice1
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 62 2012-12-10 01:26:27 <sta> i think you should apologize, gmaxwell
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 64 2012-12-10 01:28:13 <NaruFGT> would this be an appropriate place to ask questions about the reference client?
 65 2012-12-10 01:28:23 <gmaxwell> NaruFGT: it's a good place.
 66 2012-12-10 01:28:55 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: interesting, that hash doesn't show up in my logs here.
 67 2012-12-10 01:30:40 <midnightmagic> :-/
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 97 2012-12-10 03:07:45 <slush> does exist something like tor2web, but tunelling any traffic (not just HTTP)?
 98 2012-12-10 03:08:25 <slush> tor2web even cannot be used for anything serious, because it adds banners to the payload :-/
 99 2012-12-10 03:09:30 <jgarzik> yeah it's called "tor"
100 2012-12-10 03:09:31 <jgarzik> ;p
101 2012-12-10 03:10:21 <jgarzik> a non-HTTP protocol has no opportunity for being accessed through a normal web browser
102 2012-12-10 03:10:40 <jgarzik> so that doesn't make much sense
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104 2012-12-10 03:12:04 <slush> jgarzik: maybe you didn't noticed, but there are more protocols than HTTP :-P
105 2012-12-10 03:12:43 <slush> it would enable hidden jabber/mail/torrent servers etc
106 2012-12-10 03:12:52 <slush> but accessible from normal internet
107 2012-12-10 03:13:55 <jgarzik> slush: sure.  that's basically setting up an exit node, but with more visibility, and no way (like banner ads) to generate revenue to pay for the internet connection and lawyers
108 2012-12-10 03:14:11 <slush> jgarzik: I can imagine another business model
109 2012-12-10 03:14:15 <jgarzik> in the end it's easier and cheaper to just run Tor ;p
110 2012-12-10 03:14:24 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
111 2012-12-10 03:14:29 <slush> jgarzik: that proxy can receive bitcoins for tunelling some specific hidden service
112 2012-12-10 03:15:39 <jgarzik> slush: or just point people to the Tor Browser Bundle, and there is no need for intermediaries...  https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser.html.en
113 2012-12-10 03:16:09 <slush> this has very limited use
114 2012-12-10 03:16:19 <slush> you cannot easily run hidden mail server
115 2012-12-10 03:16:25 <slush> because normal mail server cannot deliver you emails
116 2012-12-10 03:17:04 <slush> but with such tunelling tool, somebody can pay for tunelling somedomain.slush.cz:25 -> his_onion_address:25
117 2012-12-10 03:17:51 <phantomcircuit> slush, it's actually very easy to purchase totally anonymous servers in various parts of the world
118 2012-12-10 03:18:12 <phantomcircuit> you just have to learn how to navigate sites in other languages (they're never in english)
119 2012-12-10 03:18:23 <slush> phantomcircuit: link? :-)
120 2012-12-10 03:18:26 <jgarzik> slush: Sounds like a perfect task for an agent: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Agents
121 2012-12-10 03:19:00 <slush> jgarzik: except that there's no standard API for buying VPSes :-/
122 2012-12-10 03:19:31 <slush> but yes, with providers accepint bitcoins and having automatic API for creating machines, lot of completely autonomous services would be possible
123 2012-12-10 03:19:32 <upb> so theres an api for buying a prepaid credit card for cash?
124 2012-12-10 03:19:49 <phantomcircuit> slush, https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/GoodBadISPs
125 2012-12-10 03:20:04 <slush> phantomcircuit: thanks!
126 2012-12-10 03:20:17 <slush> few years ago this list was almost empty
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160 2012-12-10 04:38:29 <jgarzik> slush: read the whole thing, especially the StorJ linked example
161 2012-12-10 04:38:37 <jgarzik> slush: that's OK that there is no standard API
162 2012-12-10 04:38:43 <jgarzik> slush: the agent hires and tests
163 2012-12-10 04:39:07 <jgarzik> slush: or, honestly, maybe just ignore the Agent wiki page and focus on gmaxwell's StorJ post
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165 2012-12-10 04:46:46 <slush> jgarzik: not possible with current state of AI
166 2012-12-10 04:46:57 <jgarzik> slush: sure it is.  it is narrow AI.
167 2012-12-10 04:48:00 <jgarzik> no reasoning involved
168 2012-12-10 04:48:48 <amiller> the agent page is misleading
169 2012-12-10 04:49:09 <gmaxwell> I was quite careful to not mention anything that requires blind inference.  It probably requires software engineering more reliable than we know how to build but no AI improvements at all.
170 2012-12-10 04:50:05 <slush> currently software cannot work untouched by the human even in deterministic environments like server rooms.
171 2012-12-10 04:50:48 <slush> and it is even not trying to improve itself, thankfully ;)
172 2012-12-10 04:51:26 <amiller> there are some tricks with proof of work puzzles that sort of come close, like this one especially http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~roxana/teaching/COMS-E6998-7-Fall-2011/papers/bowers-iacr10.pdf
173 2012-12-10 04:51:46 <amiller> where the proof of work is public verifiable and so it could let people compete to prove that they're storing your cipher text
174 2012-12-10 04:52:02 <gmaxwell> slush: the software I propose doesn't improve itself.
175 2012-12-10 04:52:17 <amiller> the storj itself is pretty conservative and cool
176 2012-12-10 04:52:38 <jgarzik> slush: Just read it :)  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53855.msg642768#msg642768
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179 2012-12-10 04:54:20 <jgarzik> amiller: Agree that the agent page isn't the best.  It is equal parts derivative and summary.  The Agent page is sorta TD's summary of the general concept.  I think it helps people to read specific details like the forum post.
180 2012-12-10 04:55:15 <slush> jgarzik: I already read it
181 2012-12-10 04:55:28 <gmaxwell> I do think that basic software quality is a major challenge there, bitcoin has just as critical a requirement for software quality and its required quite a few emergency fixes.
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183 2012-12-10 04:55:53 <gmaxwell> And it would be rather brittle even with excellent software quality.
184 2012-12-10 04:56:07 holosdfg has joined
185 2012-12-10 04:56:35 <gmaxwell> e.g. the host rearranges their payment api and it dies. :P
186 2012-12-10 04:57:11 <holosdfg> ugh i am hating the reddit today
187 2012-12-10 04:57:16 maaku has joined
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189 2012-12-10 05:03:28 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: yep.  that happens all the time even in absence of any agent bugs :/
190 2012-12-10 05:04:10 <jgarzik> there are so few published APIs versus unpublished (i.e. needing to be reverse engineered by watching browser behavior, then emulating it)
191 2012-12-10 05:05:34 <gmaxwell> There is also the (mostly reasonable) assumption that things can be changed with adequate notice... but thats only true if there is a really powerful AI in charge. :P
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194 2012-12-10 05:10:13 <muhoo> ok, i'm trying to build 0.7.1 released version, on debian wheezy, and this happens: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7467
195 2012-12-10 05:10:34 <muhoo> the link command made more readable is this https://www.refheap.com/paste/7466
196 2012-12-10 05:11:01 elkingrey has quit (Quit: Leaving)
197 2012-12-10 05:11:05 <muhoo> looks like boost is pissed off about no std::__detail::_List_node_base::_M_unhook(), but i confess to having NFI what that is
198 2012-12-10 05:11:16 <muhoo> it looks like it's not in the library, for sure.
199 2012-12-10 05:11:40 <muhoo> so, um, help?
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203 2012-12-10 05:17:40 <jgarzik> Another related project I had was a distributed version of Siri.  Essentially a distributed digital assistant that could communicate with its owner through various means (sms, voice, IM, ...).  It would act as personal assistant, much like Siri does now, and also communicate with third parties on your behalf (including other humans)
204 2012-12-10 05:19:32 <jgarzik> not a botnet, but your own, personal, distributed bot.
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206 2012-12-10 05:20:20 <jgarzik> if you are ever caught in an Action Movie Scenario, you can call it collect from a pay phone in the middle of the desert, etc. ;p
207 2012-12-10 05:22:16 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I wrote an email on intelligence amplfication that had some of the storj tone of building incremental solutions from current tech: http://people.xiph.org/~greg/ia.txt that you might find interesting.
208 2012-12-10 05:26:29 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that is a terrible name
209 2012-12-10 05:26:30 <phantomcircuit> lol
210 2012-12-10 05:27:53 <jgarzik> Google is evolving in a direction towards Wolfram Alpha... being able to ask natural question questions, and get reasonable answers
211 2012-12-10 05:28:04 <jgarzik> *natural language questions
212 2012-12-10 05:29:37 <jgarzik> and Google definitely already functions as IA for a lot of us :)  I make less effort to remember easily google-able details.
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215 2012-12-10 05:32:30 <gmaxwell> meh. the WA natural language stuff is ... more impressive than useful.
216 2012-12-10 05:32:59 <gmaxwell> It figures out all kinds of stuff,  but then makes it absolutely impossible to ask some questions.  You want dx instead of dy? screw you. Not possible!
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218 2012-12-10 05:37:08 <jgarzik> It's a dependency of the solution I want, and I'm happy someone else is doing the heavy lifting :)
219 2012-12-10 05:37:39 <jgarzik> Have thought about direct IA but that always seemed less interesting than a robot (or robots) that I could converse with directly.
220 2012-12-10 05:38:00 <jgarzik> Mainly the realm of personal preference :)
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223 2012-12-10 05:40:16 <gmaxwell> Maninly the notion I was driving at there that there are two hard problems: interface and AI.  So why not seperate them? Meat bast brains are not _that_ costly, esp if you multiplex them well. And they're way more powerful than any AI available.
224 2012-12-10 05:44:32 <amiller> mechanical turk is the first platform that lets you tune on the interface side the way people are used to tuning on the AI side
225 2012-12-10 05:44:37 <jgarzik> true
226 2012-12-10 05:45:06 <jgarzik> I'm surprised nobody has yet done a viable MT running on bitcoins
227 2012-12-10 05:45:08 <amiller> if you can break up a task so that humans can do it without much attention, then it can be effective - if you can improve the interface so that they're marginally more productive, you get the direct savings
228 2012-12-10 05:45:29 <jgarzik> I think there was one amateurish attempt (or maybe that was just forum talk)
229 2012-12-10 05:45:30 <amiller> "brain mining"
230 2012-12-10 05:45:36 <amiller> earn bitcoins using just your dumb face
231 2012-12-10 05:46:12 <weex> coinworker was one, they used a service called crowdflower i think
232 2012-12-10 05:46:27 <weex> and mainly you'd look at pictures to see if they were obscene
233 2012-12-10 05:50:57 <ThomasV_> sounds like a fascinating work where you can truly develop yourself
234 2012-12-10 05:52:22 <weex> there IS a zen to that, you're 100% correct
235 2012-12-10 05:53:10 <weex> but still, a native version of that would be good, rather than depending on the operator of the service to do exchange to keep it funded
236 2012-12-10 05:53:32 <weex> i'd also like to see a pure bitcoin version of an advertising CAPTCHA system like Solve Media
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318 2012-12-10 10:20:48 <sta> nothing replaces a nice human. no digital assistant. especially a nice human who will answer calls instead of you while you are right there and tell people that you are "in a meeting" when you don't feel like talking to them
319 2012-12-10 10:23:10 <sta> no answering machine can do that
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321 2012-12-10 10:35:33 <Eliel> yes... not yet
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345 2012-12-10 11:24:21 <t7> some kinda chat bot could really annoy them :)
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357 2012-12-10 11:56:06 <sta> t7: has to pass some version of the turing test
358 2012-12-10 11:56:28 <sta> everybody likes a human slave
359 2012-12-10 11:57:57 <sta> especially one that they can unload their frustrations on, when the phone conversation didn't go well for some reason
360 2012-12-10 12:01:24 <t7> i want a good looking female secretary
361 2012-12-10 12:01:43 <t7> who needs the day off every now and then but she has no holiday time left
362 2012-12-10 12:13:34 BlackPrapor has quit (2!~BlackPrap@94.41.241.214.dynamic.ufanet.ru|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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364 2012-12-10 12:22:29 <jine> It seriously takes forever to sync the chain nowdays :( Haven't done it in quite some time, but this is a pain in the ...
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370 2012-12-10 12:38:32 <TD> good day
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407 2012-12-10 14:30:24 <gavinandresen> sipa: RE: new checkpoint for 0.7.2: good idea.
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415 2012-12-10 14:48:47 <helo> could miners ever let some users send transactions for free in exchange for the user is running a full node and relaying to the miner?
416 2012-12-10 14:49:22 <helo> s/is //
417 2012-12-10 14:49:49 <t7> helo: I dont see why not
418 2012-12-10 14:50:07 <t7> but why would the miner be so grateful ?
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434 2012-12-10 14:59:06 <helo> dunno... maybe people become apathetic about running full nodes, and miners want a healthy network?
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439 2012-12-10 15:10:23 <helo> maybe just a "Node Day" holiday where the goal is to get as many people running the reference client as is possible
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448 2012-12-10 15:13:32 <sipa> ;;bc,blcoks
449 2012-12-10 15:13:33 <gribble> Error: "bc,blcoks" is not a valid command.
450 2012-12-10 15:13:35 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
451 2012-12-10 15:13:41 <gribble> timed out
452 2012-12-10 15:13:44 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
453 2012-12-10 15:13:49 <gribble> timed out
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566 2012-12-10 17:58:44 <jgarzik> chain-verf: spend block @ 180000
567 2012-12-10 17:58:44 <jgarzik> 5820 jgarzik   20   0 1792m 1.6g 1120 R 97.0 42.2   3497:18 memcheck-amd64-
568 2012-12-10 17:58:49 mughat has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
569 2012-12-10 17:58:55 <jgarzik> still on 180k, up to 1.6g RAM now
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623 2012-12-10 18:51:23 jurov is now known as mod69
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628 2012-12-10 18:53:32 <novusordo> is it possible to run bitcoin on 2 networks at the same time?
629 2012-12-10 18:53:39 <novusordo> as in, a full node
630 2012-12-10 18:53:58 mughat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
631 2012-12-10 18:54:46 <novusordo> let's say that I have a network that has no access to the internet whatsoever
632 2012-12-10 18:55:00 <novusordo> but my internet-connected computer is also connected to that network
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635 2012-12-10 18:55:26 <gmaxwell> novusordo: thats mostly a host network stack question, not a bitcoin one— bitcoin listens on all addresses, so you can connect to it from your other network.
636 2012-12-10 18:56:05 <TD> hmm
637 2012-12-10 18:56:10 <novusordo> could i run a bitcoin node on my computer that connects to the main bitcoin network on the internet, and act as a bridge that other computers on the internet-less network could connect to?
638 2012-12-10 18:56:12 <TD> bitsofproof has bits of code copied from bitcoinj
639 2012-12-10 18:56:33 <novusordo> (also, with one network being ipv4 and one being ipv6)
640 2012-12-10 18:56:35 <TD> novusordo: sure
641 2012-12-10 18:56:42 <novusordo> interesting
642 2012-12-10 18:57:46 mughat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
643 2012-12-10 18:57:52 <novusordo> i'm attempting to get a bitcoin node running on the CJDNS network that bridges to the main network
644 2012-12-10 18:58:01 mughat has joined
645 2012-12-10 18:58:21 <TD> huh
646 2012-12-10 18:58:23 <TD> it's using IRC too
647 2012-12-10 18:58:27 <TD> novusordo: oh sweet
648 2012-12-10 18:58:33 <TD> novusordo: let us know if you want help. cjdns is cool
649 2012-12-10 18:58:53 <TD> oh, i see. it's using the testnet
650 2012-12-10 18:58:54 <TD> ok
651 2012-12-10 18:59:02 <novusordo> thanks! i agree, it's pretty amazing
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659 2012-12-10 19:02:05 <novusordo> oh, in the process, i'm going to be installing bitcoin for the 1st time on my raspberry pi
660 2012-12-10 19:02:13 <novusordo> planning on using 0.8
661 2012-12-10 19:02:16 <TD> er
662 2012-12-10 19:02:22 * TD is skeptical a pi can keep up in any reasonable time
663 2012-12-10 19:02:32 <TD> even with 0.8
664 2012-12-10 19:02:35 <TD> why do you want to do that?
665 2012-12-10 19:03:07 <novusordo> well, i've been using my pi as an i2p and cjdns node, figured i'd use it
666 2012-12-10 19:03:14 <TD> bitcoin is a lot heavier than most software
667 2012-12-10 19:03:18 <TD> especially on disk IO
668 2012-12-10 19:03:29 <TD> feel free to try it, but don't be surprised if you get bored waiting for it to catch up to the chain head
669 2012-12-10 19:03:42 <TD> i suppose, you could sync a database on a faster machine, copy it across and just have it keep up
670 2012-12-10 19:03:51 <novusordo> yeah that's what my next question was about
671 2012-12-10 19:04:22 <novusordo> i have the db synced on my laptop, should i just copy that over? or is there anything with 0.8 that would make it better to simply download from scratch?
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673 2012-12-10 19:04:34 <TD> 0.8 uses a totally different db format to 0.7
674 2012-12-10 19:04:41 <maaku> novusordo: copy that over and use the command-line import
675 2012-12-10 19:04:44 <novusordo> ok, laptop is using 0.7
676 2012-12-10 19:04:46 <TD> your best bet, i think, would be to sync 0.8 on a fast desktop
677 2012-12-10 19:04:48 <TD> or laptop
678 2012-12-10 19:04:54 <TD> and then copy it over and run 0.8 on the pi, and see how it fairs
679 2012-12-10 19:05:13 <novusordo> hmm, ok
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682 2012-12-10 19:08:51 <maaku> CBitcoinAddress("1…").Get() returns a different script in fTestnet vs main line, why is that?
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703 2012-12-10 20:08:27 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: RE last night's discussion, the US military predicts neuro-enhancements in their Global Trends 2030 reports: http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/12/superhumans-instant-cities/
704 2012-12-10 20:09:27 robocoin has joined
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706 2012-12-10 20:13:55 <MC1984> cool
707 2012-12-10 20:15:25 <jgarzik> Lots of good papers/panels/links from http://gt2030.com/ apparently
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719 2012-12-10 20:27:34 <jgarzik> chain-verf: spend block @ 190000
720 2012-12-10 20:27:40 <jgarzik>  5820 jgarzik   20   0 1811m 1.6g  948 R 98.6 42.7   3644:32 memcheck-amd64-
721 2012-12-10 20:27:44 * jgarzik gives up, and hits Ctrl-C
722 2012-12-10 20:27:52 <jgarzik> time to implement checkpoints for a realistic test
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745 2012-12-10 21:05:39 <Diapolo> sipa: gmaxwell: I tried "bitcoin-qt.exe -Proxy=127.0.0.1:9050 -externalip=yubxrmbxwbcrs5gy.onion -onlynet="Tor" -bind=127.0.0.1" and I get incoming connections with my patch applied... currently I have none outbound though.
746 2012-12-10 21:10:33 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: I can't fathom why! do you still if you run onlynet ipv4?
747 2012-12-10 21:10:49 <Diapolo> I'll try, just a sec
748 2012-12-10 21:12:53 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: seems like no
749 2012-12-10 21:13:20 <sipa> this doesn't make sense
750 2012-12-10 21:14:13 <sipa> any reason to capitalize Proxy and Tor?
751 2012-12-10 21:14:20 <Diapolo> sipa: bitcoin-qt.exe -Proxy=127.0.0.1:9050 -externalip=yubxrmbxwbcrs5gy.onion -onlynet="IPv4" -bind=127.0.0.1" that's what we talk about now?
752 2012-12-10 21:14:26 <Diapolo> not really
753 2012-12-10 21:14:27 <sipa> i doubt that has anything to do with it
754 2012-12-10 21:14:28 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
755 2012-12-10 21:15:16 <sipa> yes
756 2012-12-10 21:15:28 <sipa> and you say this block connections?
757 2012-12-10 21:15:54 <Diapolo> yeah, no out- or inbound connection is opened
758 2012-12-10 21:16:00 <Diapolo> wait.... now
759 2012-12-10 21:16:36 <sipa> not having an incoming connection is not the same as having incoming connections blocked by tjat code :)
760 2012-12-10 21:16:41 <sipa> *that
761 2012-12-10 21:16:54 <Diapolo> took quite some time, now I have 2 via IPv4
762 2012-12-10 21:17:03 <Diapolo> outbound
763 2012-12-10 21:17:45 <sipa> so, with -onlynet=tor, which address does it report in the "accepted connection from" message?
764 2012-12-10 21:18:01 <Diapolo> connections to the Tor HS I'm running
765 2012-12-10 21:18:40 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: re checkpoints: do you really care if we release 0.7.2 at 1,600 blocks past the checkpoint versus 2,016?  Both seem equally arbitrary to me....
766 2012-12-10 21:18:48 <sipa> _incoming_ connections
767 2012-12-10 21:19:04 <sipa> gavinandresen: seems like a slippery slope
768 2012-12-10 21:19:43 <gavinandresen> sipa: Sure.  I'd vote "checkpoint is OK if we're 144 blocks (1 day)" past it, because even a 6-block re-org would be a major disaster.
769 2012-12-10 21:19:48 <Diapolo> "addr" : "127.0.0.1:57457",
770 2012-12-10 21:19:48 <Diapolo> "inbound" : true,
771 2012-12-10 21:20:33 <gavinandresen> ... but I bow to consensus.  And waiting until we're past a difficulty adjustment at least has some rhyme or reason.
772 2012-12-10 21:21:01 <sipa> gavinandresen: seems reasonable, given that it is above 120 (which probably the point at which reorgs become very painful anyway), but still... i prefer checkpoints only as a last resort solution to cope with efficiency
773 2012-12-10 21:22:25 <sipa> perhaps we should set a rule once and for all
774 2012-12-10 21:23:04 <sipa> but on the other hand, 0.7.2 will be several thousand blocks after checkpoint by the time 0.8 is released anyway
775 2012-12-10 21:24:11 <Diapolo> sipa: incoming == inbound: true, no?
776 2012-12-10 21:24:40 <sipa> yes
777 2012-12-10 21:27:12 <sipa> ;;bc,estimate
778 2012-12-10 21:27:13 <gribble> 3459402.09975206
779 2012-12-10 21:27:19 <Diapolo> sipa: accepted connection 127.0.0.1:57457
780 2012-12-10 21:27:52 <sipa> Diapolo: oh, i think localhost is considered to be a separate network
781 2012-12-10 21:28:04 <sipa> which perhaps doesn't get blocked in -onlynet
782 2012-12-10 21:28:28 <sipa> though that will cause unexpected behavior for people using a remote tor proxy
783 2012-12-10 21:28:33 <Diapolo> remember I used -bind=127.0.0.1
784 2012-12-10 21:28:39 <sipa> irrelevant
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788 2012-12-10 21:35:11 <Diapolo> sipa: but why do I get 0 connections with -bind=127.0.0.1 removed then?
789 2012-12-10 21:35:53 <sipa> because having a proxy disables listening by default
790 2012-12-10 21:36:14 <sipa> gavinandresen: what do you think about #2034
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793 2012-12-10 21:36:36 <sipa> gavinandresen: imho, that's the next low-hanging fruit for a good user experience
794 2012-12-10 21:37:14 <sipa> (issue, not pull)
795 2012-12-10 21:37:20 <gavinandresen> sipa: I tend to trust you and jgarzik and gmaxwell to Do The Right Thing(tm) for network-related stuff.
796 2012-12-10 21:37:36 <sipa> ok
797 2012-12-10 21:38:01 <sipa> gmaxwell, jgarzik: what do you think about #2034 ?
798 2012-12-10 21:38:11 <sipa> oh, we lost jeff
799 2012-12-10 21:38:32 <gavinandresen> IBD experience is still not high on my personal priority list; until we get to "ready to send and receive bitcoins in less than a minute" for new users I don't think we solved the problem.
800 2012-12-10 21:39:06 <Diapolo> lost jeff?
801 2012-12-10 21:39:48 <sipa> well, together with ultraprune, leveldb, parallel sig checking and a few other tgings, IBD mechanism is the differemce between 2 hours and 12 hours of sync time
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806 2012-12-10 21:41:26 <Diapolo> I think that block handling stuff during IBD is worth working on or at least prevent "ERROR: ProcessBlock() : already have block 198076" as that doesn't seem to be a real error then
807 2012-12-10 21:41:36 <sipa> Diapolo: that too
808 2012-12-10 21:42:11 <sipa> gavinandresen: do you find the hal code refactor an improvement at least, already?
809 2012-12-10 21:43:03 <gavinandresen> sipa: yes
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811 2012-12-10 21:45:31 <sipa> some more code to be able to test whether the output of both EC_POINT_mul operations is identical would be nice
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821 2012-12-10 21:58:34 <sipa> hmm, easiest way would be some VERIFY_OPTIMIZED_SECP256K1 #define, which is only set when building test code, which runs both versions
822 2012-12-10 21:58:47 <sipa> but it'd be nicer if the test code could be localized in the test code
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829 2012-12-10 22:04:52 <thermoman> ETA for 0.7.2?
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833 2012-12-10 22:05:47 <sipa> very soon
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860 2012-12-10 22:58:49 <etotheipi_> sipa: I have an example for you about leveldb optimization ... you could put all the headers and tx into a single DB, since they all have unique hashes
861 2012-12-10 22:59:05 <etotheipi_> and you're rarely looking for a hash without knowing what it would be
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863 2012-12-10 22:59:31 <etotheipi_> but if I want to iterate over all headers, even if I have a list of headers to iterate over, LevelDB is not optimized for random access like that
864 2012-12-10 23:00:01 <etotheipi_> but if instead if use "HD"+Hash256 for headers and "TX"+Hash256 for tx keys... then the DB is "presorted"
865 2012-12-10 23:00:14 <sipa> well of course, that's what we do
866 2012-12-10 23:00:33 <sipa> if you have any useful information about the key, make sure it gets sorted on
867 2012-12-10 23:00:39 <sipa> but you could go further than that
868 2012-12-10 23:01:11 <etotheipi_> sipa: my point was not that the sorting alone is preferred, but that leveldb is optimized for that sequential access
869 2012-12-10 23:01:22 <etotheipi_> and I was wondering if there were other things that you were doing like that
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871 2012-12-10 23:01:26 <sipa> etotheipi_: the nice thing is that the sstable format even removes that redundancy
872 2012-12-10 23:01:31 <zapsoda> Hey everyone
873 2012-12-10 23:02:03 <zapsoda> So im reading about accounts here https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Accounts_explained how do i make a new account?
874 2012-12-10 23:02:30 <etotheipi_> sipa: I started out by separating the headers from the Tx, but then I realized not only would be it be plenty efficient to keep them in the same DB, but it makes it possible to do transactions on both sub-DBs at the same time
875 2012-12-10 23:02:40 <etotheipi_> *transactions==batchwrite?
876 2012-12-10 23:03:16 <sipa> etotheipi_: but you could split the data into a txid->num and a num->txdata, which would make the actual transaction data at higher locality
877 2012-12-10 23:03:43 <sipa> in case the txdata was very big, and you often needed access to transactions that were created close to eachother, that would make sense
878 2012-12-10 23:03:44 <etotheipi_> sipa: num==blockehight?
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880 2012-12-10 23:04:08 <sipa> just some ever-increasing number you locally use to identify transactions
881 2012-12-10 23:04:12 <etotheipi_> sipa: exactly
882 2012-12-10 23:04:19 <etotheipi_> I had already considered doing that
883 2012-12-10 23:04:28 <sipa> right now, however, my txdata is on average smaller than a single txid
884 2012-12-10 23:04:31 <etotheipi_> it just added a little extra complexity for handling reorgs since blockheight may not be constant
885 2012-12-10 23:04:39 <sipa> so it would definitely not be worth it
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890 2012-12-10 23:05:15 <sipa> etotheipi_: also, headers and transactions are in separate files here, because they belong to a fundamentally different dataset
891 2012-12-10 23:05:30 <sipa> one is metadata about the blocks you have on disk, the other is a representation of the UTXO data
892 2012-12-10 23:05:46 <sipa> so you can download one, and have the other one rebuilt from scratch
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894 2012-12-10 23:06:01 <etotheipi_> sipa: that's exaclty what I originally planned to do with headers
895 2012-12-10 23:06:02 <etotheipi_> for that reason
896 2012-12-10 23:06:14 <etotheipi_> but then I liked the idea of putting things into consolidated databases
897 2012-12-10 23:06:20 <etotheipi_> because I like the fact that I can batch-update the DB
898 2012-12-10 23:06:27 <etotheipi_> and there's no chance for desynchronization
899 2012-12-10 23:06:34 <sipa> well, you don't actually need consistency between them
900 2012-12-10 23:06:51 <etotheipi_> i.e. -- put in header and tx... and make sure they're all there or none of them
901 2012-12-10 23:06:53 <sipa> but in practice, it's probably easer
902 2012-12-10 23:06:58 <etotheipi_> header&tx isn't the best example
903 2012-12-10 23:07:15 <etotheipi_> but I like the synchronization potential for keeping things in the same DB
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905 2012-12-10 23:08:13 <sipa> yeah, it certainly has advantage wrt sync
906 2012-12-10 23:09:48 <etotheipi_> sipa: I'm not ready to do a full LevelDB upgrade (I'm just doing a partial upgrade to replace some map<> objects in RAM), but I've already started working out how I want to do the full upgrade -- such that the DB accommodates full nodes, pruned nodes, pruned lite nodes, etc... and the only distinction is the level of data available
907 2012-12-10 23:10:46 <sipa> well there's two databases here now: one with data about the block tree, one with data about the current state
908 2012-12-10 23:10:49 <etotheipi_> sipa: I might look to see what you've done and try to collaborate....
909 2012-12-10 23:11:25 <etotheipi_> sipa: for instance, the tx store would store raw tx without the TxOuts, there would be a separate OutPoint entry for it to go look up the TxOuts
910 2012-12-10 23:11:25 <sipa> if i add indexes, if they are about the entire history they go in in the first, if they're about unspent coins, they go in the second
911 2012-12-10 23:11:48 <sipa> etotheipi_: i thougt long about that, but txid's are very large compared to txouts
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913 2012-12-10 23:11:59 <etotheipi_> sipa: yes, that's my concern, too
914 2012-12-10 23:12:10 <sipa> so i store UTXO's per txid, and not per outpoint
915 2012-12-10 23:12:27 <sipa> though leveldb is actually very efficient about keys that share a prefix
916 2012-12-10 23:12:34 <sipa> i didn't know that at the time
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919 2012-12-10 23:13:31 <etotheipi_> sipa: I had thought that the outpoint store would simply be {txID --> a+TxOut(a) + b+TxOut(b) + c+TxOut(c)}
920 2012-12-10 23:13:49 <etotheipi_> that way, it can hold partial tx or full tx
921 2012-12-10 23:14:01 <etotheipi_> but updating it would be slow
922 2012-12-10 23:14:09 <etotheipi_> (*slower)
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924 2012-12-10 23:14:24 <sipa> that's why you try to bundle multiple updates to the same txid in one batch )
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926 2012-12-10 23:14:50 <etotheipi_> sipa: sure... but how often are your operations actually hitting the same tx?
927 2012-12-10 23:14:50 <sipa> have a look at how i encode utxo data... it has 0 redundancy :p
928 2012-12-10 23:15:11 <etotheipi_> sipa: I'll take you up on that... hopefully in the next month when I get a chance to do it
929 2012-12-10 23:15:21 <etotheipi_> I want to get the new wallets first
930 2012-12-10 23:15:44 <sipa> etotheipi_: depends on your settings, but with "larger" cache settings, it easily bundles millions of updated tx's in one batch
931 2012-12-10 23:15:47 <etotheipi_> then maybe I'll have some time to rewriting how Armory handles all that data
932 2012-12-10 23:16:07 <sipa> so yes, i hit the same tx many times - most often, it's spent entirely before ever hitting disk
933 2012-12-10 23:16:30 <sipa> during IBD, that is
934 2012-12-10 23:16:46 <etotheipi_> ahh
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943 2012-12-10 23:29:08 <etotheipi_> sipa: do you have any understanding (or "feel") for how resistant leveldb will be to corruption?  i.e. how many times do I have to cut the power during a write operation for a non-tangible chance to be corrupted?
944 2012-12-10 23:29:27 <etotheipi_> theoretically, if it's done right, it should never corrupt... correct?
945 2012-12-10 23:30:00 <sipa> etotheipi_: i haven't ever seen it myself (including tests where i make my system lose power during writes), but there have been reports of windows users with corrupted db's
946 2012-12-10 23:30:23 <etotheipi_> ...stupid windows...
947 2012-12-10 23:30:28 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: what you're describing is achievable. I don't know if leveldb achieves it.
948 2012-12-10 23:31:26 <etotheipi_> maybe I can RAID5 all the data into 4 different databases
949 2012-12-10 23:31:31 <sipa> haha
950 2012-12-10 23:31:40 <sipa> that won't give you atomicity
951 2012-12-10 23:31:47 <sipa> afaict, it would make it even harder
952 2012-12-10 23:32:03 <etotheipi_> gah
953 2012-12-10 23:32:07 <sipa> as you don't have inter-database guarantees
954 2012-12-10 23:32:10 <etotheipi_> right
955 2012-12-10 23:32:23 <sipa> well, you have some, if you use sync writes
956 2012-12-10 23:32:26 <etotheipi_> I guess... I'm curious how much extra headache I'm going to have from this...
957 2012-12-10 23:32:51 amiller_ is now known as amiller
958 2012-12-10 23:32:52 <sipa> there are alternatives
959 2012-12-10 23:32:54 <etotheipi_> one major benefit of the fact that Armory rescans every load, is that it's impossible to corrupt (unless blk000X.dat is corrupted)
960 2012-12-10 23:32:59 <sipa> i guess sqlite has had more testing
961 2012-12-10 23:33:21 <etotheipi_> or rathre, any corruption in my indexing is fixed by an Armory restart
962 2012-12-10 23:33:26 <sipa> the windows leveldb port seems badly maintained
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964 2012-12-10 23:34:37 <etotheipi_> I'm not looking forward to having corruptible, persistent storage, and dealing with different bad states... but it has to be done sometime
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967 2012-12-10 23:38:58 <etotheipi_> one other thing... if I want to dump a *list* of serialized objects into the same DB, as long as they are unique, would I just put them all in the key and leave the value empty?
968 2012-12-10 23:39:06 <etotheipi_> is there a convention for this?
969 2012-12-10 23:40:20 <sipa> if you have a list, you probably care about the order?
970 2012-12-10 23:40:25 <sipa> or do you have a set?
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972 2012-12-10 23:44:33 <etotheipi_> oh yeah, this is a set
973 2012-12-10 23:44:48 <sipa> then there's no reason not to use the key
974 2012-12-10 23:44:56 <etotheipi_> if it's an ordered list, I guess I just use keyprefix+4byteIndex-->data
975 2012-12-10 23:45:32 <sipa> as that 1) guarantees the set property and 2) check for presence in the set quickly
976 2012-12-10 23:45:53 <etotheipi_> sipa: have you enabled bloom filtering in leveldb?
977 2012-12-10 23:45:57 <sipa> yes
978 2012-12-10 23:45:59 <etotheipi_> I couldn't figure out how to set it up
979 2012-12-10 23:46:08 <sipa> TD did that part
980 2012-12-10 23:46:09 <etotheipi_> do you have a chunk of C++ code that enables it
981 2012-12-10 23:46:24 <etotheipi_> it looks like the interface changed recently, and I can't find one that works
982 2012-12-10 23:46:56 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/leveldb.cpp
983 2012-12-10 23:48:24 <etotheipi_> well that's easy... I don't know why I couldn't get that to work
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986 2012-12-10 23:55:36 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt