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   4 2012-12-14 00:08:09 <gavinandresen> denisx: http://skypaint.com/bitcoin/bitcoind-0.7.2-macosx
   5 2012-12-14 00:10:38 <denisx> gavinandresen: now I need to build all those libs and put it in /opt/local/lib ?
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   7 2012-12-14 00:11:48 <denisx> no, I have them already in bitcoin-qt...
   8 2012-12-14 00:12:05 <gavinandresen> yeah, that's the packaging that I'm too lazy to do....
   9 2012-12-14 00:12:30 <denisx> I see
  10 2012-12-14 00:13:29 <gavinandresen> LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/Application/Bitcoin-Qt/Contents/MacOS bitcoind ...etc...   or something like that might work
  11 2012-12-14 00:14:55 <denisx> no matter what I do: Illegal instruction: 4
  12 2012-12-14 00:15:11 <gavinandresen> sipa: builds match, I'll push my sigs and upload to sourceforge
  13 2012-12-14 00:17:49 <sipa> no third builder? :(
  14 2012-12-14 00:17:59 * sipa pokes Luke-Jr, BlueMatt, wumpus
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  19 2012-12-14 00:20:41 * gavinandresen has to go to a school concert now 
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  23 2012-12-14 00:42:33 <slush> which files needs to be on fast storage to speedup bitcoind? blkindex.dat, blk*.dat and database/ directory?
  24 2012-12-14 00:44:00 <sipa> database/ mostly needs fast writability, blkindex.dat shouldn't matter too much if you have lots of cache, and the block files need fast read access
  25 2012-12-14 00:44:09 <sipa> in 0.8 however, just coins/ needs to be fast
  26 2012-12-14 00:44:23 <slush> sipa: when will be 0.8 released?
  27 2012-12-14 00:44:28 <sipa> when it's ready
  28 2012-12-14 00:44:31 <slush> :-)
  29 2012-12-14 00:44:43 <slush> I'm considering to move files to ramdisk
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  31 2012-12-14 00:45:59 <slush> but maybe the best solution is to don't touch it and wait for 0.8 which will hopefully improve I/O performance
  32 2012-12-14 00:46:34 <sipa> you can try whether it already does :)
  33 2012-12-14 00:47:13 <sipa> by 'speedup bitcoind', which operation do you mean in particular?
  34 2012-12-14 00:47:30 <slush> catching up blocks, in normal pool operation
  35 2012-12-14 00:47:44 <slush> with bigger blocks there is sometimes significant latency
  36 2012-12-14 00:47:48 <sipa> process/relay incoming blocks, relay transactions, IBD, getblocktemplate, ...
  37 2012-12-14 00:47:56 <slush> everything ;)
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  39 2012-12-14 00:48:41 <slush> pool is running standard 0.7, which is pretty well connected, so every part takes some CPU time
  40 2012-12-14 00:49:22 <etotheipi_> sipa: is there anything different about how 0.8+ writes to the blk files?  I mean, I know how they are renamed and relocated... but I'm seeing errors to do with impartial blocks being written
  41 2012-12-14 00:49:34 <sipa> etotheipi_: the block files are pre-allocated
  42 2012-12-14 00:49:47 <etotheipi_> oh hell
  43 2012-12-14 00:49:49 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  44 2012-12-14 00:50:04 <sipa> in regions of 16 MiB - every time a new region is needed, 16 MiB of zeroes are written
  45 2012-12-14 00:50:05 <etotheipi_> how do you know how much data is there?
  46 2012-12-14 00:50:14 <sipa> it's in the block index
  47 2012-12-14 00:50:45 <sipa> but in general, if you see 4 0x00's instead of the block magic, you can assume it's the EOF
  48 2012-12-14 00:51:08 <sipa> it shouldn't ever produce holes
  49 2012-12-14 00:51:31 <etotheipi_> okay
  50 2012-12-14 00:51:43 <etotheipi_> that's reasonable.... the magic bytes saved me here
  51 2012-12-14 00:51:50 <sipa> 0.7 always just appended, even after partial blocks or so
  52 2012-12-14 00:52:08 <sipa> 0.8 always writes in the first unused location, which means overwriting a partial block if there'd be one
  53 2012-12-14 00:52:16 <etotheipi_> so much for a smooth transition to 0.8 for Armory...
  54 2012-12-14 00:52:34 <sipa> well, people complained about excessive fragmentation
  55 2012-12-14 00:52:42 <sipa> this is a neat solution, imho
  56 2012-12-14 00:52:42 <etotheipi_> ooh, I see
  57 2012-12-14 00:52:53 <etotheipi_> each block ending up at different places on disk?
  58 2012-12-14 00:53:20 <sipa> the index just maintains how much bytes are used in each block file
  59 2012-12-14 00:53:38 <etotheipi_> well, Armory uses strictly blk000X.dat size (according to OS) to know when new blockdata comes in
  60 2012-12-14 00:53:45 <etotheipi_> so obviously, I need to rework that code
  61 2012-12-14 00:53:51 <sipa> oh
  62 2012-12-14 00:54:03 <sipa> i'd expect you to listen to the P2P port for block messages or so
  63 2012-12-14 00:54:24 <slush> sipa: sorry for stupid questions, but what happen to bdb when process crash and database/ is lost?
  64 2012-12-14 00:54:26 <etotheipi_> sipa: it's because Armory no longer stores any blockdata itself, it only stores pointers to file locations
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  66 2012-12-14 00:54:51 <sipa> slush: say a prayer that it still works; if it doesn't, restart from scratch
  67 2012-12-14 00:54:53 <etotheipi_> since blk files are append-only, it's worked out quite well until now
  68 2012-12-14 00:55:30 <etotheipi_> sipa: it also allows armoryengine to operate without any of the networking code
  69 2012-12-14 00:55:31 <sipa> slush: the database/ dir is there exactly for the case that the process crashes by the way
  70 2012-12-14 00:55:43 <slush> so it's some kind of binary log?
  71 2012-12-14 00:55:46 <slush> journal
  72 2012-12-14 00:55:46 <sipa> yes
  73 2012-12-14 00:55:49 <slush> damn
  74 2012-12-14 00:56:08 <sipa> why?
  75 2012-12-14 00:56:22 <slush> you wrote that they need fast write access
  76 2012-12-14 00:56:31 <slush> so moving them to RAM would make sense
  77 2012-12-14 00:56:46 <slush> I can keep blk files in disk cache without keeping them in ramdisk...
  78 2012-12-14 00:56:53 <sipa> if you shutdown with -detachdb, you don't need database
  79 2012-12-14 00:57:08 <slush> but what if server crash...
  80 2012-12-14 00:57:12 <sipa> but that will mean rebuild from scratch in case of unexpected crash
  81 2012-12-14 00:57:17 <slush> yes
  82 2012-12-14 00:57:38 <sipa> but the log data is cached in memory anyway
  83 2012-12-14 00:57:58 <sipa> the reason it is slow, is because there are sycnhronous writes to database/, to guarantee nothing gets lost
  84 2012-12-14 00:58:16 <slush> strange that I enabled writeback on disk and it still waits on I/O
  85 2012-12-14 00:58:24 <slush> with ram cache unused :-(
  86 2012-12-14 00:58:31 <sipa> it waits for the OS to flush to disk
  87 2012-12-14 00:58:53 <sipa> if you "speed things up" by having database/ in RAM, you might as well disable the log in the first place
  88 2012-12-14 00:58:56 <slush> even with writeback enabled? I didn't expect that flush() will wait
  89 2012-12-14 00:59:05 <slush> yes, I see
  90 2012-12-14 00:59:09 <sipa> writeback? on disk?
  91 2012-12-14 00:59:12 <slush> yes
  92 2012-12-14 00:59:22 <sipa> so it flushes to the disk cache
  93 2012-12-14 00:59:29 <sipa> but doesn't wait for the disk to write its cache
  94 2012-12-14 00:59:42 <sipa> but as the disk cache is small, it blocks anyway
  95 2012-12-14 00:59:52 <slush> then one should expect that it will eats server RAM with cache
  96 2012-12-14 00:59:56 <slush> but it doesn't happen
  97 2012-12-14 01:00:13 <sipa> it should, but that won't speedup fsync
  98 2012-12-14 01:00:22 <sipa> as it will still wait for things to be written to disk
  99 2012-12-14 01:00:30 <slush> hm
 100 2012-12-14 01:00:45 <sipa> cache helps for reading, not for writing
 101 2012-12-14 01:00:56 <slush> so storing everything in RAM (and making snapshots every hour or so) looks like the best solution
 102 2012-12-14 01:01:01 <slush> but it requires really lot of ram
 103 2012-12-14 01:01:16 <sipa> in 0.8, coins/ is only 150 MiB or so
 104 2012-12-14 01:01:25 <slush> oh nice
 105 2012-12-14 01:01:27 <sipa> and it is cached inside the client anyway
 106 2012-12-14 01:01:46 <slush> so 0.8 won't require SSD in RAID anymore? ;)
 107 2012-12-14 01:01:57 <sipa> no
 108 2012-12-14 01:02:06 <sipa> well... maybe... depending on what you need
 109 2012-12-14 01:02:24 <sipa> at times it writes block files to disk before relaying them, you probably still want that writing to be fast
 110 2012-12-14 01:03:09 <slush> why it should wait to disk I/O before relaying them?
 111 2012-12-14 01:03:21 <sipa> because that happens in the same thread
 112 2012-12-14 01:03:27 <slush> but well, storing hundreds of MB in RAM is no problem
 113 2012-12-14 01:03:32 <sipa> i'd like to change that, but it's somewhat of a large refactor
 114 2012-12-14 01:03:37 <slush> I see
 115 2012-12-14 01:05:50 <slush> sipa: to safely restore database from crash, I need snapshot of blk files and database/ from the same time, correct?
 116 2012-12-14 01:06:37 <sipa> technically, only of blkindex.dat and database/ - the corresponding blk0*.dat files can be snapshotted later
 117 2012-12-14 01:06:55 <slush> hm, perfect
 118 2012-12-14 01:07:22 <sipa> how will you do that?
 119 2012-12-14 01:07:27 <slush> LVM in ramdisk
 120 2012-12-14 01:07:30 <sipa> lvm snapshot?
 121 2012-12-14 01:07:31 <sipa> right
 122 2012-12-14 01:07:41 <slush> will store database/ and blkindex, which is less than 1 GB in size
 123 2012-12-14 01:07:50 <slush> and blk files on disk
 124 2012-12-14 01:08:15 <sipa> that should be safe
 125 2012-12-14 01:08:29 <slush> absolutely last stupid question, at least for this time:
 126 2012-12-14 01:08:53 zapsoda has joined
 127 2012-12-14 01:08:55 <zapsoda> Anyone know what data type "getbalance" returns?
 128 2012-12-14 01:09:15 <slush> do I need snapshots of blk files at all? Or can I provide snapshot of blkindex + database/ and put it together with any newer version of blk files?
 129 2012-12-14 01:10:13 <sipa> slush: that's fine
 130 2012-12-14 01:10:19 <sipa> the blk files are append-only
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 137 2012-12-14 01:29:31 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: ping
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 142 2012-12-14 02:21:31 <jgarzik> a Hal-post!  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128042.msg1398752#msg1398752
 143 2012-12-14 02:23:48 <gavinandresen> Huzzah!  even though it looks like he found a bug we should have noticed two years ago....
 144 2012-12-14 02:26:49 <sipa> that's.... shameful
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 148 2012-12-14 02:34:30 * gavinandresen feels shame
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 150 2012-12-14 02:38:43 <D34TH> gavinandresen, sometimes answers are overlooked, but they are always found in  the end
 151 2012-12-14 02:40:08 <sipa> i wondered why people claimed it always put the real output first
 152 2012-12-14 02:40:18 <sipa> while obviously the code randomizes...
 153 2012-12-14 02:40:27 <Luke-Jr> XD
 154 2012-12-14 02:41:10 <sipa> that means a quite significant part of bitcoin history just became somewhat more traceable (to the extent the round amounts didn't reveal that already)
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 158 2012-12-14 02:46:57 <gavinandresen> sipa: getting an error gbuilding win32_boost:  http://pastebin.com/AVXsnNux    provided command 'i686-w64-mingw32-g++' not found
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 160 2012-12-14 02:49:26 <sipa> gavinandresen: hmm, i used an image with several packages already installed
 161 2012-12-14 02:49:52 <sipa> perhaps mingw-w64 only install gcc and not g++
 162 2012-12-14 02:50:04 <sipa> i'll have a look, but now i need sleep :)
 163 2012-12-14 02:50:14 <gavinandresen> go to sleep, I'm about to end for the night, too
 164 2012-12-14 02:50:25 <gavinandresen> I'll post in the pull request so we don't forget
 165 2012-12-14 02:51:10 <zeks2> can someone help me to explain what means Network ID for the primary blockchain in eloipool ?
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 170 2012-12-14 03:13:48 <D34TH> hmm, it seems that i have just been attacked on ipv6
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 177 2012-12-14 03:38:38 <da2ce7> with collecting entorpy with c++ is there any blocking 'random' call that will not return untill enough entropy has been collected?
 178 2012-12-14 03:40:25 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: pong
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 181 2012-12-14 03:44:19 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: are you going to fix that gitian bug?
 182 2012-12-14 03:45:20 <theymos> da2ce7: Standard C++ doesn't have any cryptographic randomness functions AFAIK.
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 184 2012-12-14 03:48:57 <da2ce7> http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/random/random_device/  except requires a compiler (and system that supports it)...
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 237 2012-12-14 07:13:35 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: which one?
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 256 2012-12-14 08:11:51 <midnightmagic> da2ce7: Here's a really eye-popping thread about the new /dev/random on NetBSD http://mail-index.netbsd.org/tech-kern/2011/12/09/msg012085.html
 257 2012-12-14 08:12:17 <da2ce7> midnightmagic: thank I'll check it out.
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 316 2012-12-14 11:33:36 <Diablo-D3> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130795.0
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 318 2012-12-14 11:43:13 <Jouke> >_<
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 321 2012-12-14 11:52:57 <MC1984> Diablo-D3 that doesnt look like shilling
 322 2012-12-14 11:53:16 <MC1984> just looks like more neutral language and removal of some out of date info
 323 2012-12-14 11:53:53 <MC1984> u trollin?
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 326 2012-12-14 12:00:07 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: dude, you need to get a grip on your trolling impulses. It's embarassing for everyone who knows you.
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 329 2012-12-14 12:10:36 <Graet> lukes wiki vandalism has gone on for too long, it should have facts not his opinion
 330 2012-12-14 12:18:20 <upb> REPENT!
 331 2012-12-14 12:25:06 <sta> how centralized will ASIC mining make bitcoin?
 332 2012-12-14 12:25:52 <gmaxwell> Graet: did you even look at it or are you just responding based on a general irritation w/ luke?  Because seriously, the edit was totally reasonable... and I would have made it myself if someone had pointed it out.
 333 2012-12-14 12:26:32 <sta> BFL is the only mining-ASIC name that i know of (my mind-share)
 334 2012-12-14 12:26:49 <sta> maybe i haven't been looking into this enough
 335 2012-12-14 12:27:16 <sta> if there are other people selling ASIC miners, it would be nice to know
 336 2012-12-14 12:28:02 <sta> of course, if i ever dare order one, it'll probably be caught at the airport
 337 2012-12-14 12:28:05 <_dr> bASIC
 338 2012-12-14 12:28:19 <sta> and i'll be charged 12345 EUR for customs
 339 2012-12-14 12:28:37 <sta> (last time it was just 123 EUR, so this time they'll probably add a few more digits, i guess)
 340 2012-12-14 12:31:24 <Graet> i looked at that and i also have seen other edits of his over the last 14 months gmaxwell
 341 2012-12-14 12:33:32 <Luke-Jr> Graet'
 342 2012-12-14 12:33:46 <Luke-Jr> Graet's become a troll in recent months; all my wiki edits are factual
 343 2012-12-14 12:34:17 <Graet> like your ltc ones calling it a scam, but now you suport scrypt mining?
 344 2012-12-14 12:34:43 <Graet> you throw troll and bad for bitcoin around too much dude, your credibilty is slipping in the community
 345 2012-12-14 12:35:03 Joric has joined
 346 2012-12-14 12:35:08 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder/issues/26
 347 2012-12-14 12:37:19 <sipa> Luke-Jr: meh, i just use a wrapper around gbuild that dumps the commit i want in inputs/bitcoin
 348 2012-12-14 12:37:26 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
 349 2012-12-14 12:37:45 <Joric> should i rebase pull request into a single commit if there are a lot of small changes
 350 2012-12-14 12:38:16 <sipa> Joric: depends whether the changes make sense on their own
 351 2012-12-14 12:38:24 <Luke-Jr> sipa: well, it affects everyone using gitian
 352 2012-12-14 12:38:51 <sipa> Luke-Jr: yes, imho that's the only thing gitian should do, instead of trying to figure out where to fetch from and automating things
 353 2012-12-14 12:39:21 <gmaxwell> Graet: Perhaps some of the edits have been questionable, but when you attack reasonable ones you weaken your argument and lose a chance to encourage luke to be more thoughtful when editing.
 354 2012-12-14 12:39:34 <Luke-Jr> in other news, new Atlas vandalism-shill: Anym
 355 2012-12-14 12:39:39 <Joric> sipa, does it work at all? did you rebase your pull requests?
 356 2012-12-14 12:39:50 <sipa> Joric: i continuously rebase :)
 357 2012-12-14 12:40:08 <sipa> Joric: i'm sure ultraprune was rebased 100 times during development or so
 358 2012-12-14 12:40:55 <gmaxwell> Joric: do whatever creates the most clarity.
 359 2012-12-14 12:41:09 <gmaxwell> (even if its a bit more work— the revision history is forever)
 360 2012-12-14 12:41:46 <Luke-Jr> (on further review, Anym seems to be more than an Atlas-shill, nevermind)
 361 2012-12-14 12:41:53 <Graet> i never had a chance to influence Luke-Jr , he decided he didnt likeme based on a conversation i was having with DrHaribo over a year ago... something about offending his religius morals because i have children....
 362 2012-12-14 12:42:26 <Graet> now if i ask him a question he avoids it and calls me a trol...
 363 2012-12-14 12:42:48 <sipa> Joric: in general, if you can have commits that result in a compiling/functional state of the program, and are somewhat useful on their own, keep the commits separate
 364 2012-12-14 12:42:51 <sipa> but that's a fuzzy rule
 365 2012-12-14 12:42:56 <Graet> my forum post history is available for anyone to point out the trollish posts - no-one has...
 366 2012-12-14 12:43:20 <Graet> i try to avoid having conversatiomn with luke now... its just pointless
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 388 2012-12-14 13:26:23 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: btw, I think you didnt notice he removed asicminer
 389 2012-12-14 13:28:10 Azelphur has quit (Excess Flood)
 390 2012-12-14 13:28:42 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: ... I did notice, and commented that it had no business being there!
 391 2012-12-14 13:28:55 <Diablo-D3> an asic vendor has no business being there?
 392 2012-12-14 13:29:07 <Diablo-D3> lets remove all of them then.
 393 2012-12-14 13:29:30 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: Whats its hash rate? How much power does it draw? When will it be available to the public?  OH WAIT. The answer to all these questions is N/A because at this time it's a centeralzed hash farm with a defunct GLBSE security.
 394 2012-12-14 13:29:51 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: nope
 395 2012-12-14 13:30:00 <gmaxwell> (and in fact, I did previously remove all the non-shipping products from the page— but other people didn't agree)
 396 2012-12-14 13:30:01 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: infact, I may end up buying the first two available
 397 2012-12-14 13:30:53 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: I checked before talking to you, 'making hardware available to the public' is  "future" for them with an unspecified timeframe.
 398 2012-12-14 13:31:07 <gmaxwell> Might as well list me there— hey, I might make miners available to the public in the future.
 399 2012-12-14 13:31:09 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: it depends entirely on how well the first run goes
 400 2012-12-14 13:31:23 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: most likely, there will be enough to sell
 401 2012-12-14 13:32:14 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 402 2012-12-14 13:32:17 Azelphur has joined
 403 2012-12-14 13:32:51 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: 'enough', as in "so long as there is enough yeild to give the central farm a majority of hash power we might sell a few to other people" ? :P   More seriously, there isn't any proposed specs/pricing/etc. for that. it's even worse pure speculation than the rest.
 404 2012-12-14 13:33:06 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: there is proposed pricing
 405 2012-12-14 13:33:09 <Diablo-D3> its all in the thread.
 406 2012-12-14 13:33:28 <Diablo-D3> what friedcat is worried about is the whole "fabbing in china" thing
 407 2012-12-14 13:33:54 <Diablo-D3> since this is asicminer's first run, yield numbers might be much worse than what he contracted for with the fab
 408 2012-12-14 13:34:28 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: what you're getting confused with is, unlike scams like bfl, he has not taken preorders for units
 409 2012-12-14 13:34:43 <Diablo-D3> thats the sign of an honest businessman
 410 2012-12-14 13:34:59 <Diablo-D3> bfl and basic? both kneedeep in orders they cant fill.
 411 2012-12-14 13:35:50 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 412 2012-12-14 13:35:51 <zeks2> i agree
 413 2012-12-14 13:36:08 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: Oh, how could I be more mistaken! everyone raising hundreds of thousands of dollars on GLBSE has been completely honest in the past!
 414 2012-12-14 13:36:20 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: /me shrugs
 415 2012-12-14 13:36:35 <Diablo-D3> I thought I was the jaded one, but hey, dont let me stop you
 416 2012-12-14 13:36:37 <gmaxwell> ... at least preorders have standard consumer protection laws to back them up... GLBSE investments? Pound sand.
 417 2012-12-14 13:36:47 datagutt has joined
 418 2012-12-14 13:36:50 <Diablo-D3> preorders dont have consumer protection laws
 419 2012-12-14 13:36:59 <gmaxwell> But in any case, it's still misplaced for the page.
 420 2012-12-14 13:37:24 <gmaxwell> (as are all the other speculative products, but moreso the less concrete the product offering)
 421 2012-12-14 13:37:33 <Diablo-D3> okay so, luke improving bfl's language to cover up that its a scam and then nuking the text for the only legit vendor on the page is okay?
 422 2012-12-14 13:37:35 <Diablo-D3> the hell man
 423 2012-12-14 13:39:13 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 424 2012-12-14 13:39:37 <gmaxwell> the language he changed was language _I_ wrote. https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Mining_hardware_comparison&diff=31436&oldid=31434  and I'm fine with the change.
 425 2012-12-14 13:39:57 datagutt is now known as datagoute
 426 2012-12-14 13:43:05 <Diablo-D3> Dont care. And quit unstickying threads.
 427 2012-12-14 13:43:32 <Diablo-D3> luke has to answer for his trolling, leave it.
 428 2012-12-14 13:45:50 <gmaxwell> ... there isn't any trolling there, as now four or five people have told you. We should be deleting that sort of thread, not creating them, and certantly not stickying them.
 429 2012-12-14 13:46:33 <Diablo-D3> fine, then I send the bfl thread into the abyss as well as part of my anti-scam policy.
 430 2012-12-14 13:46:39 <Diablo-D3> its either or, gmaxwell
 431 2012-12-14 13:46:46 <Diablo-D3> you dont get both
 432 2012-12-14 13:47:14 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 433 2012-12-14 13:48:30 <sipa> i don't see why there would be any argument that one or the other is a scam
 434 2012-12-14 13:48:49 <sipa> it's purely speculation
 435 2012-12-14 13:49:57 <Diablo-D3> sipa: because bfl has basically admitted there are no units and never will be
 436 2012-12-14 13:50:45 <sipa> link?
 437 2012-12-14 13:51:02 gavinandresen has joined
 438 2012-12-14 13:52:06 <Diablo-D3> its somewhere on the forum
 439 2012-12-14 13:52:23 <Diablo-D3> bfl purposely had their shills start hundreds of troll threads to make it hard to find information about bfl
 440 2012-12-14 13:52:28 <Diablo-D3> I fixed the problem.
 441 2012-12-14 13:53:44 <sipa> i asked for a link
 442 2012-12-14 13:54:13 Jamesz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 443 2012-12-14 13:54:14 <Diablo-D3> yes, and I said go find it yourself
 444 2012-12-14 13:54:30 <Diablo-D3> it might have gotten misplaced in the cleanup
 445 2012-12-14 13:54:58 <sipa> you're claiming something i don't believe, i think it's up to you to prove it
 446 2012-12-14 13:55:10 drizztbsd has joined
 447 2012-12-14 13:55:28 <Diablo-D3> no, you're trying to argue in favor of bfl like gmaxwell is
 448 2012-12-14 13:55:38 <Diablo-D3> and Im just wondering why anyone would protect a scam
 449 2012-12-14 13:56:54 <_dr> i think you're arguing in favor of your friend and are spreading FUD about bfl without backing it up
 450 2012-12-14 13:57:02 <_dr> because you misplaced the url, yeah right :)
 451 2012-12-14 13:57:38 <sipa> i'm not arguing in favor of anything - i simply say there is no way to know if anything would be a scam
 452 2012-12-14 13:57:41 <Diablo-D3> _dr: what friend?
 453 2012-12-14 13:58:06 <Diablo-D3> sipa: well, how do you prove a negative anyhow? just keep letting bfl roll back the ship date month after month?
 454 2012-12-14 13:59:10 <_dr> Diablo-D3: you seem to know this friedcat fellow, which you advertise as an honest businessman
 455 2012-12-14 13:59:11 <sipa> if they keep doing that, i suppose you can start a discussion about it
 456 2012-12-14 13:59:20 <sipa> but you claimed they admitted not producing any units
 457 2012-12-14 13:59:24 <_dr> and claim that bfl would be debunked as a scam, without any proof
 458 2012-12-14 13:59:26 <sipa> and that would seriously surprise me
 459 2012-12-14 13:59:28 <_dr> seems rather biased to me
 460 2012-12-14 14:00:20 <gmaxwell> I'm really disappointed in Diablo-D3's behavior. :( Though since its so transparent I don't think there is any value in arguing further about it. Can we talk about something else?
 461 2012-12-14 14:00:32 <sipa> yes, please
 462 2012-12-14 14:00:36 <Diablo-D3> _dr: nope, not a friend
 463 2012-12-14 14:00:46 <Diablo-D3> _dr: the list of people I call friends is very short, he isnt on it
 464 2012-12-14 14:00:50 <sta> bfl a scam?
 465 2012-12-14 14:00:58 <Diablo-D3> sta: pretty sure, yes
 466 2012-12-14 14:01:36 <sta> maybe the asic core or something should be open-cored
 467 2012-12-14 14:01:47 <Diablo-D3> well, it basically already is
 468 2012-12-14 14:02:02 <Diablo-D3> avalon and bfl are using existing IP cores
 469 2012-12-14 14:02:20 <Diablo-D3> and so is asicminer
 470 2012-12-14 14:02:34 <Diablo-D3> and I think tycho's shit is as well
 471 2012-12-14 14:03:06 <sta> is there someone who sells asic miners, from which i can just order and have the thing in a few days or a week or so?
 472 2012-12-14 14:03:14 <Diablo-D3> sta: no
 473 2012-12-14 14:03:17 <sta> all this "preorder" stuff is annoying
 474 2012-12-14 14:03:19 <Diablo-D3> they're all waiting for the chips  from the fab
 475 2012-12-14 14:04:51 <sta> well, i guess i'll have to use some kind of dispute-resolving, escrow mechanism...
 476 2012-12-14 14:05:45 <Diablo-D3> or just wait until the chips are done.
 477 2012-12-14 14:07:02 denisx has joined
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 481 2012-12-14 14:22:28 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr's edits look OK
 482 2012-12-14 14:22:31 epscy has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 483 2012-12-14 14:22:42 <jgarzik> the previous text was unnecessarily inflammatory
 484 2012-12-14 14:23:07 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: so bfl stays, yet is a scam, but asicminer goes, and is probably going to be the first company with asics?
 485 2012-12-14 14:23:18 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 486 2012-12-14 14:24:15 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: 1) Zero proof BFL is a scam, 2) BFL has actually shipped products, unlike others, 3) "probably going to be" is meaningless, as history shows delays are inevitable
 487 2012-12-14 14:24:57 <Diablo-D3> no, delays really arent inevitable
 488 2012-12-14 14:25:05 <Diablo-D3> the bfl delays were because they lied
 489 2012-12-14 14:25:23 <Diablo-D3> and probably did it just so they could get away with it again as part of a long con
 490 2012-12-14 14:25:29 <jgarzik> Uh huh.  Zero evidence of that, too.
 491 2012-12-14 14:26:04 <Diablo-D3> um, has bfl shipped asics? no.
 492 2012-12-14 14:26:08 <Diablo-D3> theres all the evidence you need.
 493 2012-12-14 14:26:13 <sipa> has anyone shipped asics? no.
 494 2012-12-14 14:26:24 <Diablo-D3> sipa: people have been shipping asics for 40 years.
 495 2012-12-14 14:26:26 <denisx> I hope they will never do! ;)
 496 2012-12-14 14:26:54 <sipa> let's give them all the benefit of the doubt until there is more than speculation
 497 2012-12-14 14:27:07 <Diablo-D3> sipa: bfl had their time
 498 2012-12-14 14:27:21 <sipa> gavinandresen: updated the leveldb17 branch - the package name was wrong
 499 2012-12-14 14:27:24 <Diablo-D3> they said they would ship in sept, failed, said oct, failed, said nov, failed, said dec, and is now failing that and pushing it to jan
 500 2012-12-14 14:27:27 <m0mchil> just don't
 501 2012-12-14 14:27:32 <m0mchil> feed the troll
 502 2012-12-14 14:27:39 <Diablo-D3> so when the hell do you call it a troll?
 503 2012-12-14 14:27:40 <gavinandresen> sipa: great, thanks
 504 2012-12-14 14:27:40 <Diablo-D3> er
 505 2012-12-14 14:27:43 <Diablo-D3> so when the hell do you call it a scam?
 506 2012-12-14 14:27:51 <jgarzik> ASICMINER seems the most questionable of all the ASIC projects, as they do not seem to distribute the chips to the masses.
 507 2012-12-14 14:27:51 <Diablo-D3> Ive given them enough time
 508 2012-12-14 14:28:00 <sipa> Diablo-D3: i call them all potential scams until one ships; happy?
 509 2012-12-14 14:28:01 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: except they are
 510 2012-12-14 14:28:13 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: people apparently cannot read
 511 2012-12-14 14:28:14 <jgarzik> It is disappointing that all that hashing power consolidates in so few hands.
 512 2012-12-14 14:28:16 <Diablo-D3> and I find this sad
 513 2012-12-14 14:28:23 <Diablo-D3> the first x th belongs to the investors
 514 2012-12-14 14:28:30 <Diablo-D3> the rest os being sold
 515 2012-12-14 14:28:40 <Diablo-D3> *is
 516 2012-12-14 14:28:54 <Diablo-D3> it says it right there in the fucking thread.
 517 2012-12-14 14:29:08 * gavinandresen puts dd3 on his ignore list again
 518 2012-12-14 14:29:12 <Diablo-D3> people keep thinking preordering == sales
 519 2012-12-14 14:29:12 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt
 520 2012-12-14 14:29:30 <Diablo-D3> its an investment just like how investors invested in asicminer
 521 2012-12-14 14:29:51 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ditto
 522 2012-12-14 14:29:54 <sipa> same
 523 2012-12-14 14:29:56 <Diablo-D3> its like everytime someone brings up consumer laws in the bfl thread
 524 2012-12-14 14:30:05 <Diablo-D3> how do consumer laws protect investors? it doesnt
 525 2012-12-14 14:30:20 <Diablo-D3> they are not preorders by customers no matter what the language bfl or the investors used
 526 2012-12-14 14:30:29 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: please take this elsewhere.
 527 2012-12-14 14:30:34 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: whatever
 528 2012-12-14 14:30:38 <Diablo-D3> just quit shitting for bfl
 529 2012-12-14 14:30:45 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik, sipa: same goes for you two as well
 530 2012-12-14 14:35:36 <sta> denisx: after searching a bit about the asic business, i couldn't help noticing that a lot of people seem to work in a kinda "closed" way; i.e. they make them, they use them
 531 2012-12-14 14:36:24 <sta> which is kind of logical, if you think about it...
 532 2012-12-14 14:37:01 <denisx> sta: you meant me?
 533 2012-12-14 14:37:19 <sta> you were "hoping" they never ship
 534 2012-12-14 14:37:48 rdponticelli has joined
 535 2012-12-14 14:38:09 <denisx> sta: ah ok, yeah, I have some fpga boards and the arrival of the asics is a desaster for me ;)
 536 2012-12-14 14:38:10 owowoinsomnia has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 537 2012-12-14 14:38:41 <Diablo-D3> fpga was a mistake anyhow
 538 2012-12-14 14:39:53 <abracadabra> meh
 539 2012-12-14 14:39:57 <abracadabra> was just a stepping stone
 540 2012-12-14 14:40:11 <abracadabra> people wanted them
 541 2012-12-14 14:40:15 <abracadabra> somebody made them
 542 2012-12-14 14:40:17 owowo has joined
 543 2012-12-14 14:40:23 <Diablo-D3> fpgas are useful for hardware development
 544 2012-12-14 14:40:24 <abracadabra> capitalism
 545 2012-12-14 14:40:28 <Diablo-D3> they're not  very useful for selling them
 546 2012-12-14 14:46:41 datagoute is now known as datagutt
 547 2012-12-14 14:50:29 mughat has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 548 2012-12-14 14:54:15 <gavinandresen> sipa: boost-w64-win32 built nicely.
 549 2012-12-14 14:58:24 <sipa> gavinandresen: well, it built for me, so i'm pretty sure that given the same environment it will build for you as well
 550 2012-12-14 14:58:33 <sipa> gavinandresen: the problem is whether it works :)
 551 2012-12-14 14:59:57 <sipa> especially the native windows leveldb env i'm not sure about - it looks well researched and people have congratulated the author on the mailing list, but it's still just something some guy wrote, and not part of leveldb itself
 552 2012-12-14 15:00:52 DMCommit has joined
 553 2012-12-14 15:00:52 <DMCommit> [DiabloMiner] Diablo-D3 pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/wKLacw
 554 2012-12-14 15:00:52 <DMCommit> DiabloMiner/master 541a255 Patrick McFarland: Forcefully disconnect HTTP on any error
 555 2012-12-14 15:00:52 DMCommit has left ()
 556 2012-12-14 15:04:57 winemaker has joined
 557 2012-12-14 15:05:09 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: thank you
 558 2012-12-14 15:05:36 <MC1984>  diablo needs to calm his tits
 559 2012-12-14 15:06:13 <Diablo-D3> lol gmaxwell just banned the github bot
 560 2012-12-14 15:06:21 <Diablo-D3> what a moron
 561 2012-12-14 15:06:52 <drizztbsd> lol why?
 562 2012-12-14 15:07:09 <TD> there's a separate channel for commits, i think
 563 2012-12-14 15:07:27 <winemaker> how can i speed up the syncronisation with the bitcoin network? its 2 days now and only 80% and getting more and more slow
 564 2012-12-14 15:07:41 <jgarzik> diablominer commit messages are appropriate for #bitcoin-mining, not #bitcoin-dev
 565 2012-12-14 15:07:50 <Diablo-D3> td: didnt use to be
 566 2012-12-14 15:07:52 <jgarzik> winemaker: what version of bitcoind / Bitcoin-Qt?
 567 2012-12-14 15:08:04 <sipa> winemaker: for release versions, best way to speed it up is running it in a tmpfs/ramdrive; upcoming 0.8 should be much faster out of the box
 568 2012-12-14 15:08:07 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: commit messages are not appropriate for non-dev channels
 569 2012-12-14 15:08:07 <TD> winemaker: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=129861.0
 570 2012-12-14 15:08:10 <jgarzik> winemaker: in general, if you hit a bad peer, you can restart to find a new peer
 571 2012-12-14 15:08:14 <MC1984> winemaker wait for 0.8 release
 572 2012-12-14 15:08:25 <TD> there's been a #bitcoin-commits for a while
 573 2012-12-14 15:08:30 <winemaker> v0.7.1-beta bitcoin-qt
 574 2012-12-14 15:08:39 <sipa> gavinandresen: how's the 0.7.2 release?
 575 2012-12-14 15:08:45 <jgarzik> TD: I wouldn't mind seeing mainline bitcoin.git commits on this channel
 576 2012-12-14 15:08:54 <jgarzik> but not, e.g. picocoin/pynode commits
 577 2012-12-14 15:09:01 <winemaker> i already set nat on port8333 to my computer... but only 8 connections
 578 2012-12-14 15:09:08 <gavinandresen> sipa: oh, yeah!  Almost forgot about 0.7.2...   ready to announce, I think
 579 2012-12-14 15:09:10 <sipa> winemaker: connections hardly matter
 580 2012-12-14 15:09:42 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: I previously pointed #bitcoin-commits out to you. And if you were paying any attention to this channel you might have noticed that there are no commits comming here. If we don't have bitcoin.org git commits coming here we surely don't want miner ones. It's nothing personal.
 581 2012-12-14 15:09:43 <gavinandresen> #bitcoin-commits has been broken for a while
 582 2012-12-14 15:10:12 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: erm, Ive seen commits in here
 583 2012-12-14 15:10:15 <Diablo-D3> for quite some time
 584 2012-12-14 15:10:17 <gavinandresen> (volunteers to fix it or create a #bitcoin-this-one-really-works-commits welcome)
 585 2012-12-14 15:10:47 <winemaker> when will 0.8 be published?
 586 2012-12-14 15:11:00 Gladamas has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 90 seconds.)
 587 2012-12-14 15:11:01 <sipa> when it's ready (don't expect it soon)
 588 2012-12-14 15:11:08 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 589 2012-12-14 15:11:11 <sta> heh
 590 2012-12-14 15:11:30 <gavinandresen> 0.8 will be ready sooner if we get more people helping to test and find/fix bugs
 591 2012-12-14 15:11:32 <TD> yay, new intellij
 592 2012-12-14 15:11:42 <TD> winemaker: yeah every bit of testing helps
 593 2012-12-14 15:12:13 <helo> gavinandresen: what kind of testing is not covered by unit tests?
 594 2012-12-14 15:12:42 <sipa> helo: performance, data corruption/recovery, whole-application behaviour, ...
 595 2012-12-14 15:12:50 <gavinandresen> helo: upgrade/downgrade behavior...
 596 2012-12-14 15:13:16 <gavinandresen> ummm, whether it works on older or newer versions of OS'es
 597 2012-12-14 15:13:25 <jgarzik> helo: a lot
 598 2012-12-14 15:13:38 <jgarzik> helo: JSON-RPC, P2P interaction with other nodes, ...
 599 2012-12-14 15:13:48 <jgarzik> unit tests just cover very low level, discrete actions
 600 2012-12-14 15:13:50 <TD> unit tests are a useful tool, but software correctness is hard. the more techniques you use to find problems the better
 601 2012-12-14 15:13:54 <jgarzik> not higher level network behavior
 602 2012-12-14 15:14:00 <winemaker> i've got some low c++ skills.. so if you need help ^^  .. why does my client only have 8 connections? wouldnt more speed up the bootstrap?
 603 2012-12-14 15:14:04 GitHub96 has joined
 604 2012-12-14 15:14:04 <GitHub96> [DiabloMiner] none pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/lfk9mw
 605 2012-12-14 15:14:04 <GitHub96> DiabloMiner/master e24b626 Patrick McFarland: Improve INVALID_GLOBAL_OFFSET test, add atomic to GPU workSize
 606 2012-12-14 15:14:04 <GitHub96> DiabloMiner/master 3d39a10 Patrick McFarland: Forgot to initalize atomic workSize
 607 2012-12-14 15:14:04 <GitHub96> DiabloMiner/master 541a255 Patrick McFarland: Forcefully disconnect HTTP on any error
 608 2012-12-14 15:14:04 GitHub96 has left ()
 609 2012-12-14 15:14:10 <gavinandresen> Satoshi didn't really do automated testing, so we started out way behind
 610 2012-12-14 15:14:22 <Diablo-D3> grrr
 611 2012-12-14 15:14:22 <sipa> winemaker: it actually just fetches from one connection
 612 2012-12-14 15:14:28 <jgarzik> winemaker: additional connections will not speed up bootstrap
 613 2012-12-14 15:14:31 <sipa> winemaker: that's a flaw, but a rather hard one to fix
 614 2012-12-14 15:14:36 * Diablo-D3 hits save THEN test hook
 615 2012-12-14 15:14:48 <TD> winemaker: if you allow inbound connections it'll get more over time
 616 2012-12-14 15:14:58 BurtyB has joined
 617 2012-12-14 15:14:59 <sipa> winemaker: and it only makes 8 outgoing connections max; if you want more connections you need to be reachable by other nodes
 618 2012-12-14 15:15:04 <gmaxwell> winemaker: more connections do not speed up the bootstrapping, however.
 619 2012-12-14 15:15:20 <gmaxwell> (at least not today)
 620 2012-12-14 15:15:23 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: there, its in fucking mining
 621 2012-12-14 15:15:26 <MC1984> what is the most useful way a normal dude could test for you
 622 2012-12-14 15:15:30 <Diablo-D3> I will route all bitching to you
 623 2012-12-14 15:15:35 <sipa> MC1984: try to break it
 624 2012-12-14 15:15:43 <MC1984> like me, where i hardly move cins around at all
 625 2012-12-14 15:15:54 <sipa> MC1984: like unplug your power cable while syncing
 626 2012-12-14 15:16:06 <gmaxwell> MC1984: use the software in evil ways. Do all the things you'd normally do with it, then when that fails to kill it start trying to do weird crap.
 627 2012-12-14 15:16:06 <TD> MC1984: so use it as an excuse to move some :) but yeah software testing is an art. you don't need to know programming to be able to do it, but it's still a skill
 628 2012-12-14 15:16:19 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: I already fixed it
 629 2012-12-14 15:16:23 <winemaker> i think i'm reacheble for other nodes... if you mean the port8333 thing i did this already... is there a way to find an fast node and connect only with this to speed up the bootstrap?
 630 2012-12-14 15:16:27 <TD> you normally want to think "how was this intended to be used? how can I abuse it in ways the devs wouldn't expect"
 631 2012-12-14 15:16:34 <Diablo-D3> [10:01:31] * Diablo-D3 hits save THEN test hook
 632 2012-12-14 15:16:35 <Diablo-D3> [10:01:31] * Diablo-D3 hits save THEN test hook
 633 2012-12-14 15:16:35 <Diablo-D3> [10:01:31] * Diablo-D3 hits save THEN test hook
 634 2012-12-14 15:16:38 <TD> try to figure out what assumptions the developers made, then violate them
 635 2012-12-14 15:16:48 <sipa> winemaker: that will help yes; you can start with -connect=IP, and for bootstrap it certainly matters
 636 2012-12-14 15:16:48 <Diablo-D3> seriously, I think everybody is trying to get on my nerves today
 637 2012-12-14 15:16:55 <gmaxwell> Knowing programming is very helpful with testing but absolutely not required.
 638 2012-12-14 15:17:00 <MC1984> i can get new builds and pull the USB stick while its syncing again and stuff?
 639 2012-12-14 15:17:09 <sipa> MC1984: yes, do that!
 640 2012-12-14 15:17:16 <winemaker> sipa: you know any fast ip for -connect=
 641 2012-12-14 15:17:52 <jgarzik> winemaker: You can also download a big chunk of the block chain via bittorrent, and then import from local disk: [BETA] Bitcoin blockchain torrent - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117982.0
 642 2012-12-14 15:17:53 <MC1984> so for reference doing that shouldnt corrupt the whole thing right?
 643 2012-12-14 15:17:54 <sipa> winemaker: you can use my server (bitcoin.sipa.be, 178.18.90.41), and I'm sure jeff has some too
 644 2012-12-14 15:18:03 <gmaxwell> MC1984: delete random files. swap around versions. try to run two copies against the same data directory... Be a dumb user and do all the stuff we'd make fun of you for doing otherwise.
 645 2012-12-14 15:18:03 <sipa> MC1984: indeed
 646 2012-12-14 15:18:28 BurtyBB has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 647 2012-12-14 15:18:29 <gmaxwell> You might find some broken things that are too far out to bother fixing, but its better to know about them and make that choice.
 648 2012-12-14 15:18:36 <MC1984> "be a dumb user" i think i can manage that :)
 649 2012-12-14 15:18:37 <jgarzik> winemaker: what sipa said.  My servers are us2.exmulti.net / us4.exmulti.net / eu3.exmulti.net
 650 2012-12-14 15:19:04 <sipa> MC1984: also, if you increase -dbcache, data will be written to disk in larger batches during IBD
 651 2012-12-14 15:19:11 <winemaker> thx i'll try
 652 2012-12-14 15:19:16 <gmaxwell> MC1984: try send negative testcoins to people, etc.
 653 2012-12-14 15:19:22 <sipa> MC1984: which makes it easier to find a worst-case moment to remove your USB stick :)
 654 2012-12-14 15:19:50 <MC1984> what dbcache value do you recommend
 655 2012-12-14 15:19:58 <sipa> as large as you can tolerate
 656 2012-12-14 15:19:58 <MC1984> and i dont know what testcoins are
 657 2012-12-14 15:20:03 <sta> should be libdb's issue
 658 2012-12-14 15:20:10 <sipa> (it's a number in megabytes)
 659 2012-12-14 15:20:21 <gmaxwell> MC1984: also, while you do this stuff, pay attenton— many of the more interesting bugs I've found have been while trying to break some _other_ part of it and then saying "hey... that output looks funny..."
 660 2012-12-14 15:21:31 Kisume has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 661 2012-12-14 15:22:01 <sipa> etotheipi_: in your proposal, why do you need Hash(ChainCode(i)).. Hash(randomnumber) works just as well and isn't tied to some key derivation scheme
 662 2012-12-14 15:23:43 <MC1984> is there a chance that this beta software might send real coins into the abyss if i try to send them anywhere with it
 663 2012-12-14 15:24:14 <helo> of course
 664 2012-12-14 15:24:25 <helo> pretty unlikely with a locked wallet though :P
 665 2012-12-14 15:24:43 <gavinandresen> MC1984: unlikely, but testing on the testnet is always a good idea
 666 2012-12-14 15:24:45 <gmaxwell> MC1984: yes, so test with testnet for test involving actually sending coins.
 667 2012-12-14 15:24:45 <helo> oh, "if i try to send them"... more likely
 668 2012-12-14 15:25:25 <gmaxwell> also if you test on testnet you don't need to feel any guilt about creating a ton of junk transactions.
 669 2012-12-14 15:26:46 <MC1984> how do i get on the testnet and hen get some testnet coins
 670 2012-12-14 15:27:26 <gmaxwell> start with testnet=1 on your commandline or bitcoin conf ... and there is a testnet faucet or you ask here.
 671 2012-12-14 15:27:36 <gmaxwell> (also, it's not hard to cpu mine some testnet)
 672 2012-12-14 15:28:04 <MC1984> oh right
 673 2012-12-14 15:28:50 <MC1984> how big is the test blockchain assuming its seperate
 674 2012-12-14 15:29:20 * gavinandresen needs to fix the testnet faucet
 675 2012-12-14 15:30:07 Diapolo has joined
 676 2012-12-14 15:30:13 <drizztbsd> gavinandresen: aleluja! :D
 677 2012-12-14 15:30:34 <gavinandresen> I said I need to, I didn't say I was going to :)
 678 2012-12-14 15:30:56 <drizztbsd> doh
 679 2012-12-14 15:31:05 <gmaxwell> MC1984: about 15mbytes.
 680 2012-12-14 15:31:20 <helo> -testnet=1 -gen?
 681 2012-12-14 15:31:40 <gmaxwell> helo: sure, or use an rpc miner with it.
 682 2012-12-14 15:33:38 <gmaxwell> there is a testnet p2pool, though at the moment no one may be on it.
 683 2012-12-14 15:34:05 <gmaxwell> (I switch between it and solo rpc mining testnet)
 684 2012-12-14 15:34:13 <MC1984> will the multi-tread verification patch make a difference on a CPU with 1 core and hyperthreading?
 685 2012-12-14 15:34:38 <drizztbsd> often hyperthread is SLOWER than software threads
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 689 2012-12-14 15:38:20 <gmaxwell> drizztbsd: confused statement is confused.
 690 2012-12-14 15:38:45 <zeks2> i dont understand at eloipool how it works with payment, when it pays out?
 691 2012-12-14 15:38:59 <Diapolo> helo: you can also use just -testnet
 692 2012-12-14 15:39:02 <gmaxwell> MC1984: you try it and tell us! on the E3-1230 using the HT threads appears to make it mildly faster. YMMV.
 693 2012-12-14 15:39:36 Hasimir has joined
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 695 2012-12-14 15:40:28 <MC1984> should i get the ldb17 build
 696 2012-12-14 15:40:40 <jgarzik> MC1984: if you need testnet coins, just let me know.  I think gavinandresen's testnet faucet is broken.
 697 2012-12-14 15:41:21 <MC1984> ok man if i get this up and running ill give you an address
 698 2012-12-14 15:41:50 <gavinandresen> 0.7.2 announcement : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130819
 699 2012-12-14 15:42:16 BTCOxygen has joined
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 701 2012-12-14 15:42:27 <MC1984> hmm this turbo build seems to be based off .7.1
 702 2012-12-14 15:43:27 <Diapolo> sipa: why did you chose the naming-convetion w64-win32? To tell using 64 Bit MinGW but resulting builds are 32 Bit?
 703 2012-12-14 15:43:40 davout_ has joined
 704 2012-12-14 15:43:53 <sipa> Diapolo: there's nothing 64-bit about MinGW-w64
 705 2012-12-14 15:44:18 <sipa> Diapolo: but i changed the name to reflect that it's built using MinGW-w64 and not MinGW32
 706 2012-12-14 15:44:30 <sipa> (sorry, i didn't choose the confusing name)
 707 2012-12-14 15:44:52 <sipa> MC1984: the git descriptor uses the latest tag name that the current version decends from, and that is 0.7.1
 708 2012-12-14 15:45:07 <Diapolo> I didn't even know that the w64 has nothing to do with x64 ^^
 709 2012-12-14 15:45:14 <sipa> neither did i
 710 2012-12-14 15:45:18 <helo> is testing next-test better than HEAD?
 711 2012-12-14 15:45:47 <helo> that is, the main bitcoin HEAD vs Luke-Jr's next-test
 712 2012-12-14 15:45:52 <sipa> helo: it tests more proposed stuff, but if you find a bug in next-test, it's often harder to pinpoint the responsible
 713 2012-12-14 15:46:10 <Diapolo> confusing ... another small hint, Boost 1.52 doesn't require Boost Chrono, so it should be save to remove that from the Qt project file
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 716 2012-12-14 15:48:41 <helo> 2960 Unconfirmed, size 1463.405 KB, tslb 81 minutes. so it will take at least three blocks to catch up with the 512KB limit?
 717 2012-12-14 15:49:43 <helo> what's the difference between the 512KB "soft" block size limit, and the official 1MB limit?
 718 2012-12-14 15:49:57 <sipa> the first is a policy, the second is a rule
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 720 2012-12-14 15:51:42 <MC1984> k so i now have a testnet3 folder and the bitcoin icon is the colour of baby sick
 721 2012-12-14 15:51:59 <gavinandresen> helo: I don't like next-test; too many changes makes it hard to figure out what is broken.
 722 2012-12-14 15:52:49 <MC1984> so this is the third testnet and its abot 200 days old eh
 723 2012-12-14 15:52:55 <sipa> discussion with slush yesterday made me realize that we don't relay blocks before they are written to disk - which is completely unnecessary and adds delay
 724 2012-12-14 15:53:04 <MC1984> i presume the first two got trashed in the name of science lol
 725 2012-12-14 15:53:33 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'd be surprised if that really mattered though.
 726 2012-12-14 15:54:11 <sipa> if anything, the writing of data to disk should not hold up the verification thread
 727 2012-12-14 15:54:31 <jgarzik> write, start verification thread(s), commit ?
 728 2012-12-14 15:54:55 <jgarzik> and commit can run in parallel with relay
 729 2012-12-14 15:56:48 <sipa> well block writing to disk is part of the add-block-to-block-tree process; connecting that block (which spawns verification threads) happens afterwards
 730 2012-12-14 15:57:23 <sipa> ideally, we have some global block cache, and a background thread that continuously writes modified blocks to disk, and syncs before updating the blktree database
 731 2012-12-14 15:59:43 <Diapolo> After the new time-format log-file patch, my debug.log is using "2012-12-14T15:26:29" What is that T there doing?
 732 2012-12-14 15:59:52 <helo> i realize this isn't blockchain.info support, but before solving this last block it said ~3040 unconfirmed transactions. then a block with 337 transctions is found, and the unconf transaction count goes to ~200
 733 2012-12-14 16:00:08 <jgarzik> "2012-12-14T15:26:29" ???
 734 2012-12-14 16:00:10 <jgarzik> that is so ugly
 735 2012-12-14 16:00:13 <jgarzik> double NAK
 736 2012-12-14 16:00:24 <kjj> that is ISO 8601
 737 2012-12-14 16:00:35 <gmaxwell> thats not very easily shell script parsable.
 738 2012-12-14 16:00:43 <jgarzik> irrelevant, it is ugly and more difficult for human eyes to parse
 739 2012-12-14 16:00:43 <kjj> seriously?
 740 2012-12-14 16:00:45 freakazoid has joined
 741 2012-12-14 16:00:56 <gmaxwell> replace T with ' ' and it would be much easier to deal with.
 742 2012-12-14 16:01:00 <jgarzik> +1
 743 2012-12-14 16:01:03 slush1 has joined
 744 2012-12-14 16:01:16 <Diapolo> +1
 745 2012-12-14 16:01:17 <kjj> date=`echo "2012-12-14T15:26:29" | cut -d T -f 1`
 746 2012-12-14 16:01:34 <jgarzik> if you really want the 'T', write a script to add it :)
 747 2012-12-14 16:01:47 <jgarzik> split-by-space is a common task
 748 2012-12-14 16:01:57 <Diapolo> I don't want it, it's the current output?
 749 2012-12-14 16:02:03 <sipa> double NAK, that's ACK again?
 750 2012-12-14 16:02:07 <sipa> ;)
 751 2012-12-14 16:02:15 <gmaxwell> kjj: great, now match on the date in awk. .... I do log parsing with shell all the time, and I'm telling you its extra work.
 752 2012-12-14 16:02:28 <Diapolo> I'm confused now ... totally.
 753 2012-12-14 16:02:33 <Diapolo> (once more)
 754 2012-12-14 16:02:38 <sipa> Diapolo: about what?
 755 2012-12-14 16:02:49 <kjj> I prefer space over T, but the "official" spec is T
 756 2012-12-14 16:03:00 <gmaxwell> current output looks like "12/14/12 15:49:43 "
 757 2012-12-14 16:03:18 <Diapolo> that time format ... what I posted is current master and I dunno if that was an intended change or an accident
 758 2012-12-14 16:03:20 <kjj> all that I really care about myself is that the units are in the correct order, and the year is full width
 759 2012-12-14 16:03:27 <sipa> Diapolo: it's intended
 760 2012-12-14 16:03:40 <sipa> (but apparently there is dispute over it now)
 761 2012-12-14 16:03:46 <Diapolo> sipa: then I alsop want to say it's damn ugly now ^^
 762 2012-12-14 16:03:51 <gavinandresen> if y'all want to fence-paint time formats, go ahead, but leave me out of it...
 763 2012-12-14 16:04:03 <gavinandresen> wait... shed-paint....
 764 2012-12-14 16:04:16 <gmaxwell> it's more like a fence, time is one dimensional.
 765 2012-12-14 16:04:31 <gavinandresen> fence painting was Tom Sawyer.  Actually, I wish I was more like Tom
 766 2012-12-14 16:04:33 * gmaxwell shed paints your shedpainting comment
 767 2012-12-14 16:04:54 * gavinandresen isn't very good at convincing other people to do his work for him
 768 2012-12-14 16:04:59 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: meh. forget about that stuff.... this P2P networking reworking is sooo much fin.
 769 2012-12-14 16:05:02 <gmaxwell> er fun.
 770 2012-12-14 16:05:26 <jgarzik> kjj: ACK YYYY-MM-DD-like changes, NAK the 'T'
 771 2012-12-14 16:05:33 <Diapolo> if all just do the fun things the small things get forgotten on track :-P
 772 2012-12-14 16:05:39 <gmaxwell> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2817#comic
 773 2012-12-14 16:05:53 <gavinandresen> speaking of doing work:  0.7.2 should be all announced and done, let me know if you see something I forgot to do
 774 2012-12-14 16:06:07 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: did you double-check release-process text?  :)
 775 2012-12-14 16:06:10 <sipa> jgarzik: pullreq welcome
 776 2012-12-14 16:06:37 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: yes, followed release-process.txt
 777 2012-12-14 16:07:11 * jgarzik will create pullreqs once this kernel release window and 101.8F fever are done with ;p
 778 2012-12-14 16:07:11 <Diapolo> sipa: I tried to add QMAKE_CXXFLAGS *= -flto=4 and QMAKE_LFLAGS *= -flto=4, but this leads to an lto-wrapper: CreateProcess: No such file or directory ... any idea?
 779 2012-12-14 16:07:23 <kjj> the hilarious part is that the T was put there (the standard) intentionally to make it easier for machine parsing
 780 2012-12-14 16:08:27 <gmaxwell> kjj: be glad they didn't also mandate EBCDIC.  ... keep in mind that x.509 was also designed to make machine parsing 'easy'.
 781 2012-12-14 16:09:17 <jgarzik> as was XML :)
 782 2012-12-14 16:09:27 <jgarzik> remember the XML revolution?
 783 2012-12-14 16:09:27 <sipa> as was ASN.1
 784 2012-12-14 16:09:45 <sipa> wait... maybe x.509 is actually encoded in ASN.1?
 785 2012-12-14 16:10:34 eroot has joined
 786 2012-12-14 16:10:58 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 787 2012-12-14 16:11:23 <TD> it is
 788 2012-12-14 16:11:28 <TD> shudder
 789 2012-12-14 16:12:14 BTCOxygen has joined
 790 2012-12-14 16:13:25 <BTCOxygen> jgarzik: If pushpool is re-written to write to PostgreSQL will it be able to handle big loads ?
 791 2012-12-14 16:13:49 <jgarzik> BTCOxygen: it already writes to PostgresQL
 792 2012-12-14 16:14:13 <BTCOxygen> jgarzik: You said it was a problem of a single threaded DB
 793 2012-12-14 16:14:23 <jgarzik> BTCOxygen: yes
 794 2012-12-14 16:14:43 <BTCOxygen> jgarzik: PostgreSQL can work on muti-thread
 795 2012-12-14 16:15:50 <jgarzik> BTCOxygen: Yes.  It is a matter of updating pushpool to use multiple threads when talking to Postgres/Mysql/sqlite.  Then it can handle bigger loads.
 796 2012-12-14 16:16:02 <jgarzik> It already talks to Postgres/Mysql/sqlite right now.
 797 2012-12-14 16:17:39 <BTCOxygen> jgarzik: Thanks for the info
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 812 2012-12-14 16:31:20 <zeks2> what pool uses 50btc, can someone sell that pool software or something like that?
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 814 2012-12-14 16:33:11 <gmaxwell> propritary software it is, not open to sharing they are. Asking in many channels are you?
 815 2012-12-14 16:35:18 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: see all the discussion about hash collision complexity attacks on BTRFS?
 816 2012-12-14 16:37:31 <zeks2> sorry, than best is to ask here for future
 817 2012-12-14 16:37:48 <zeks2> and does anyone have some similar to their software to sell or share
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 821 2012-12-14 16:41:27 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: yep.  yawn.  that problem has been re-re-re-discovered and reinvented several times in the kernel.
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 824 2012-12-14 16:42:21 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: recently, we removed the kernel network routing cache, because you could attack it remotely via hash+cache entry stuffing.
 825 2012-12-14 16:42:35 <jgarzik> easily degenerated to far worse behavior than no cache at all
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 827 2012-12-14 16:43:47 <gmaxwell> zeks2: Many open source pool daemons there are. Available are not mining front ends. Running without a front end like eligius some pools have done.
 828 2012-12-14 16:45:24 <gmaxwell> New centralized pools gaining wide adoption these days? Doubtful I am. Better off using P2Pool miners would be.
 829 2012-12-14 16:45:48 <jgarzik> Yoda, you both are
 830 2012-12-14 16:47:02 <denisx> gmaxwell: how many languages other than english can you speak?
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 832 2012-12-14 16:48:39 <weex> Difficult to count, it must be.
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 834 2012-12-14 16:49:42 <gmaxwell> denisx: I'm usually quite happy to tell other people that they can speak english far better than I can speak $applicable.  But I can speak hundreds with the help of google translate! :P  (though, the japanese results are ... uh. rather tortured). Don't concurrently ask people how to run your mining business in three channels if you don't want to be made a target though. :)
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 837 2012-12-14 17:03:32 <gmaxwell> I can't get over how fortunate we are to have Hal's continued contributions.
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 839 2012-12-14 17:12:00 <helo> s/denisx/zeks2/?
 840 2012-12-14 17:12:30 <denisx> ?
 841 2012-12-14 17:12:56 <weex> denisx: helo wants to replace you with zeks2
 842 2012-12-14 17:13:02 <weex> and is asking if it's ok
 843 2012-12-14 17:13:59 * gavinandresen is reading X.509 standards documents and is amused at the reference to "TeletexString" ....
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 848 2012-12-14 17:22:30 <MC1984> moNFBd6ovCRK5e7WHryad4a9QTaYNorrpQ
 849 2012-12-14 17:22:40 <MC1984> if anyne wants to send me a few testnet coins
 850 2012-12-14 17:24:19 <gmaxwell> MC1984: 14304f061881fedd289cb55f4109e473869e17f27d58c4832d7b3c6942b8b323
 851 2012-12-14 17:25:10 <MC1984> wooo 50 coins
 852 2012-12-14 17:25:21 <MC1984> the only time i will ever see that happening lol
 853 2012-12-14 17:26:39 <helo> it looked like gmaxwell's comment to denisx was intended for zeks2
 854 2012-12-14 17:27:05 <denisx> helo: no, he meant me
 855 2012-12-14 17:27:09 <MC1984> know what would be useful
 856 2012-12-14 17:27:09 <helo> but now i'm thinking he was commenting to denisx regarding zeks2
 857 2012-12-14 17:27:31 <slush1> MC1984: wooo:-)
 858 2012-12-14 17:27:46 <MC1984> some sort of modified bitcoind that just reflected testcoins back at whatever address sent it, perhaps in random time slots and amounts
 859 2012-12-14 17:27:58 <MC1984> lol thanks for the 1000
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 861 2012-12-14 17:28:13 <MC1984> all i can surmise from this is that testcoins are worthless lol
 862 2012-12-14 17:28:16 <gmaxwell> MC1984: you can run two copies of testnet!
 863 2012-12-14 17:28:31 <gmaxwell>     "balance" : 618774.51859299,
 864 2012-12-14 17:28:36 <slush1> MC1984: yes, I had 100k of them, still 70k remains
 865 2012-12-14 17:28:42 <slush1> if you want some more, just ask :-D
 866 2012-12-14 17:29:34 <MC1984> mfw some retard starts a testcoin exchange and lots of other retards jump on and suddenly im part of the 1%
 867 2012-12-14 17:30:47 <gmaxwell> MC1984: that problem was solved before by resetting testnet when people started demanding real amounts for them.
 868 2012-12-14 17:31:20 <MC1984> oh it did happen lol
 869 2012-12-14 17:32:00 <helo> its ok guys, i'll be fine CPU mining my own testnet coins annnnny time now ;)
 870 2012-12-14 17:32:28 <MC1984> this loglife says bitcoind connected to lfnet, i thought that was scrapped ages ago
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 872 2012-12-14 17:33:02 <slush1> Many months ago I sold 10k testnet1 coins to nanotube for one bitcoin. One day later Gavin resetted testnet :-)
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 874 2012-12-14 17:33:09 <slush1> I was sorry for him :-)
 875 2012-12-14 17:33:45 <MC1984> yeh looks like i got my peers from irc :/
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 878 2012-12-14 17:34:21 <jgarzik> MC1984: that's normal for testnet3
 879 2012-12-14 17:34:23 <gavinandresen> slush1: yes, we'll reset it again, too, if testnet coins start getting valuable enough to trade
 880 2012-12-14 17:34:26 <winemaker> hi... is bitcoin-python for python 2xx or 3xx?
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 882 2012-12-14 17:35:27 <jgarzik> winemaker: url?  There are several projects that claim that name.
 883 2012-12-14 17:35:38 <jgarzik> winemaker: most likely it is 2xx, though some support both
 884 2012-12-14 17:35:49 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it's reactivated for testnet because testnet has no dnsseed. (also it keeps that code working, ... which is a good thing unless we decide to remove it entirely)
 885 2012-12-14 17:35:56 <winemaker> https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin-python
 886 2012-12-14 17:36:01 <MC1984> ok
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 888 2012-12-14 17:36:50 <MC1984> so a full testnet sync took from 15:38 to 16:42
 889 2012-12-14 17:36:55 <MC1984> on this machine
 890 2012-12-14 17:37:19 <gmaxwell> 0_o
 891 2012-12-14 17:37:22 <jgarzik> winemaker: probably 2xx
 892 2012-12-14 17:37:38 <MC1984> thats quite bas isnt it
 893 2012-12-14 17:37:41 <MC1984> bad
 894 2012-12-14 17:37:56 <jgarzik> winemaker: this should support both 2xx and 3xx: https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinrpc
 895 2012-12-14 17:38:09 <jgarzik> MC1984: there are some test cases in the testnet3 chain that take forever to validate
 896 2012-12-14 17:38:16 <MC1984> almost certain due to this slow USB stick
 897 2012-12-14 17:38:56 <gmaxwell> There are some intentionally slow cases, e.g. blocks with thousands of txn but that sounds longer than I expected.
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 900 2012-12-14 17:39:43 <MC1984> is it useful to test with very slow i/o?
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 903 2012-12-14 17:40:30 <MC1984> send version message: version 60002       this seems strange also
 904 2012-12-14 17:41:07 <gmaxwell> MC1984: sure. almost all tests are useful.
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 906 2012-12-14 17:41:39 <MC1984> ill play with the dbcache and see what happens
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 909 2012-12-14 17:43:01 <MC1984> is there any way to see how fast -gen is going
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 912 2012-12-14 17:44:26 <gmaxwell> MC1984: gethashespersec should give you a measurement.
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 914 2012-12-14 17:44:45 <gmaxwell> The answer is "not very fast" ... the integrated cpu miner isn't as fast as external ones.
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 916 2012-12-14 17:45:14 <MC1984> 282144
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 918 2012-12-14 17:45:55 <MC1984> something tells me ill be waiting a while even on testnet
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 940 2012-12-14 18:21:10 <midnightmagic> theo de raadt is getting a little fatalistic lately. :(
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 946 2012-12-14 18:43:44 <MC1984> is ti me or are these confirmations a bit slow
 947 2012-12-14 18:46:28 <sipa> on testnet? they're slow unless someone is mining
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 955 2012-12-14 18:56:41 <MC1984> hoe many nodes are there on testnet
 956 2012-12-14 18:56:57 <MC1984> i notice its struggling to maintain 8 connections
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 958 2012-12-14 18:57:12 <MC1984> well sometimes
 959 2012-12-14 18:57:21 <MC1984> i cant move these coins until 6 confs right
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 987 2012-12-14 19:43:17 <helo> i'm mining with 2mhash/s
 988 2012-12-14 19:43:17 winterblack_ is now known as nethershaw
 989 2012-12-14 19:43:55 <helo> Aaaaaaaand here come mad blocks, brace yourselves!
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1044 2012-12-14 21:26:00 <helo> is it wise to reduce the dustspam fee at this point, given that mining income has just recently ~halved?
1045 2012-12-14 21:27:05 <helo> re: [Bitcoin-development] RFC: Updating dust output definition, and default fees
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1077 2012-12-14 22:47:34 <MC1984> im sure bitcoin is shutting itself down
1078 2012-12-14 22:48:01 <MC1984> logfile says its a clean exit but im not doing it
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1082 2012-12-14 22:58:19 <sipa> MC1984: out of disk space maybe?
1083 2012-12-14 22:59:31 <MC1984> no its me being a dumbass
1084 2012-12-14 22:59:40 <MC1984> pressing X
1085 2012-12-14 23:04:22 <etotheipi_> sipa: I need to know how to rederive my own addresses later in my own deterministic wallet
1086 2012-12-14 23:05:16 <gmaxwell> helo: that change increases fees, but just decreases the smallest outputs it will let you make. So it's not just a decrease.
1087 2012-12-14 23:05:32 <etotheipi_> if I just setup my wallet to use PubKey[i] = Hash(Chaincode[i])*PubKey[0], then I have a plain deterministic wallet that happens to also give me the ability to prove relationship to the root key
1088 2012-12-14 23:06:24 <etotheipi_> If I'm not mistaken, this [i]almost[/i] fits into the BIP 32 spec
1089 2012-12-14 23:06:42 <etotheipi_> but I have to check it out again, it's been a long time since I looked at it
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1095 2012-12-14 23:23:28 <sipa> etotheipi_: well sure if you want to generate the keys in a BIP32 setting, it makes sense to use hash(chaincode) as factor, but there is no need for that in the spec right
1096 2012-12-14 23:23:40 <sipa> etotheipi_: you'd just given out hash(chaincode) to the payer
1097 2012-12-14 23:23:53 <sipa> and as far as he is concerned, it's just an arbitrary 256-bit number
1098 2012-12-14 23:24:16 <etotheipi_> sipa: understood.... the point is to make the actual key to be derived from the chaincode, not the chaincode itself
1099 2012-12-14 23:24:39 <etotheipi_> I'm just pointing out why the distinction is important
1100 2012-12-14 23:25:06 <etotheipi_> if the Invoice ID was the chaincode itself, then giving them an address gives them the whole chain
1101 2012-12-14 23:25:13 <sipa> right
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1103 2012-12-14 23:27:16 <etotheipi_> sipa: okay I see what you're saying...
1104 2012-12-14 23:27:45 <etotheipi_> it doesn't even have to be spec'd ... each chaincode can just produce two addresses... whatever the deterministic wallet would produce anyway, and the one using hash(chaincode)
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1106 2012-12-14 23:28:31 <Luke-Jr> topic needs update fyi
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