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4 2012-12-14 00:08:09 <gavinandresen> denisx: http://skypaint.com/bitcoin/bitcoind-0.7.2-macosx
5 2012-12-14 00:10:38 <denisx> gavinandresen: now I need to build all those libs and put it in /opt/local/lib ?
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7 2012-12-14 00:11:48 <denisx> no, I have them already in bitcoin-qt...
8 2012-12-14 00:12:05 <gavinandresen> yeah, that's the packaging that I'm too lazy to do....
9 2012-12-14 00:12:30 <denisx> I see
10 2012-12-14 00:13:29 <gavinandresen> LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/Application/Bitcoin-Qt/Contents/MacOS bitcoind ...etc... or something like that might work
11 2012-12-14 00:14:55 <denisx> no matter what I do: Illegal instruction: 4
12 2012-12-14 00:15:11 <gavinandresen> sipa: builds match, I'll push my sigs and upload to sourceforge
13 2012-12-14 00:17:49 <sipa> no third builder? :(
14 2012-12-14 00:17:59 * sipa pokes Luke-Jr, BlueMatt, wumpus
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19 2012-12-14 00:20:41 * gavinandresen has to go to a school concert now
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23 2012-12-14 00:42:33 <slush> which files needs to be on fast storage to speedup bitcoind? blkindex.dat, blk*.dat and database/ directory?
24 2012-12-14 00:44:00 <sipa> database/ mostly needs fast writability, blkindex.dat shouldn't matter too much if you have lots of cache, and the block files need fast read access
25 2012-12-14 00:44:09 <sipa> in 0.8 however, just coins/ needs to be fast
26 2012-12-14 00:44:23 <slush> sipa: when will be 0.8 released?
27 2012-12-14 00:44:28 <sipa> when it's ready
28 2012-12-14 00:44:31 <slush> :-)
29 2012-12-14 00:44:43 <slush> I'm considering to move files to ramdisk
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31 2012-12-14 00:45:59 <slush> but maybe the best solution is to don't touch it and wait for 0.8 which will hopefully improve I/O performance
32 2012-12-14 00:46:34 <sipa> you can try whether it already does :)
33 2012-12-14 00:47:13 <sipa> by 'speedup bitcoind', which operation do you mean in particular?
34 2012-12-14 00:47:30 <slush> catching up blocks, in normal pool operation
35 2012-12-14 00:47:44 <slush> with bigger blocks there is sometimes significant latency
36 2012-12-14 00:47:48 <sipa> process/relay incoming blocks, relay transactions, IBD, getblocktemplate, ...
37 2012-12-14 00:47:56 <slush> everything ;)
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39 2012-12-14 00:48:41 <slush> pool is running standard 0.7, which is pretty well connected, so every part takes some CPU time
40 2012-12-14 00:49:22 <etotheipi_> sipa: is there anything different about how 0.8+ writes to the blk files? I mean, I know how they are renamed and relocated... but I'm seeing errors to do with impartial blocks being written
41 2012-12-14 00:49:34 <sipa> etotheipi_: the block files are pre-allocated
42 2012-12-14 00:49:47 <etotheipi_> oh hell
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44 2012-12-14 00:50:04 <sipa> in regions of 16 MiB - every time a new region is needed, 16 MiB of zeroes are written
45 2012-12-14 00:50:05 <etotheipi_> how do you know how much data is there?
46 2012-12-14 00:50:14 <sipa> it's in the block index
47 2012-12-14 00:50:45 <sipa> but in general, if you see 4 0x00's instead of the block magic, you can assume it's the EOF
48 2012-12-14 00:51:08 <sipa> it shouldn't ever produce holes
49 2012-12-14 00:51:31 <etotheipi_> okay
50 2012-12-14 00:51:43 <etotheipi_> that's reasonable.... the magic bytes saved me here
51 2012-12-14 00:51:50 <sipa> 0.7 always just appended, even after partial blocks or so
52 2012-12-14 00:52:08 <sipa> 0.8 always writes in the first unused location, which means overwriting a partial block if there'd be one
53 2012-12-14 00:52:16 <etotheipi_> so much for a smooth transition to 0.8 for Armory...
54 2012-12-14 00:52:34 <sipa> well, people complained about excessive fragmentation
55 2012-12-14 00:52:42 <sipa> this is a neat solution, imho
56 2012-12-14 00:52:42 <etotheipi_> ooh, I see
57 2012-12-14 00:52:53 <etotheipi_> each block ending up at different places on disk?
58 2012-12-14 00:53:20 <sipa> the index just maintains how much bytes are used in each block file
59 2012-12-14 00:53:38 <etotheipi_> well, Armory uses strictly blk000X.dat size (according to OS) to know when new blockdata comes in
60 2012-12-14 00:53:45 <etotheipi_> so obviously, I need to rework that code
61 2012-12-14 00:53:51 <sipa> oh
62 2012-12-14 00:54:03 <sipa> i'd expect you to listen to the P2P port for block messages or so
63 2012-12-14 00:54:24 <slush> sipa: sorry for stupid questions, but what happen to bdb when process crash and database/ is lost?
64 2012-12-14 00:54:26 <etotheipi_> sipa: it's because Armory no longer stores any blockdata itself, it only stores pointers to file locations
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66 2012-12-14 00:54:51 <sipa> slush: say a prayer that it still works; if it doesn't, restart from scratch
67 2012-12-14 00:54:53 <etotheipi_> since blk files are append-only, it's worked out quite well until now
68 2012-12-14 00:55:30 <etotheipi_> sipa: it also allows armoryengine to operate without any of the networking code
69 2012-12-14 00:55:31 <sipa> slush: the database/ dir is there exactly for the case that the process crashes by the way
70 2012-12-14 00:55:43 <slush> so it's some kind of binary log?
71 2012-12-14 00:55:46 <slush> journal
72 2012-12-14 00:55:46 <sipa> yes
73 2012-12-14 00:55:49 <slush> damn
74 2012-12-14 00:56:08 <sipa> why?
75 2012-12-14 00:56:22 <slush> you wrote that they need fast write access
76 2012-12-14 00:56:31 <slush> so moving them to RAM would make sense
77 2012-12-14 00:56:46 <slush> I can keep blk files in disk cache without keeping them in ramdisk...
78 2012-12-14 00:56:53 <sipa> if you shutdown with -detachdb, you don't need database
79 2012-12-14 00:57:08 <slush> but what if server crash...
80 2012-12-14 00:57:12 <sipa> but that will mean rebuild from scratch in case of unexpected crash
81 2012-12-14 00:57:17 <slush> yes
82 2012-12-14 00:57:38 <sipa> but the log data is cached in memory anyway
83 2012-12-14 00:57:58 <sipa> the reason it is slow, is because there are sycnhronous writes to database/, to guarantee nothing gets lost
84 2012-12-14 00:58:16 <slush> strange that I enabled writeback on disk and it still waits on I/O
85 2012-12-14 00:58:24 <slush> with ram cache unused :-(
86 2012-12-14 00:58:31 <sipa> it waits for the OS to flush to disk
87 2012-12-14 00:58:53 <sipa> if you "speed things up" by having database/ in RAM, you might as well disable the log in the first place
88 2012-12-14 00:58:56 <slush> even with writeback enabled? I didn't expect that flush() will wait
89 2012-12-14 00:59:05 <slush> yes, I see
90 2012-12-14 00:59:09 <sipa> writeback? on disk?
91 2012-12-14 00:59:12 <slush> yes
92 2012-12-14 00:59:22 <sipa> so it flushes to the disk cache
93 2012-12-14 00:59:29 <sipa> but doesn't wait for the disk to write its cache
94 2012-12-14 00:59:42 <sipa> but as the disk cache is small, it blocks anyway
95 2012-12-14 00:59:52 <slush> then one should expect that it will eats server RAM with cache
96 2012-12-14 00:59:56 <slush> but it doesn't happen
97 2012-12-14 01:00:13 <sipa> it should, but that won't speedup fsync
98 2012-12-14 01:00:22 <sipa> as it will still wait for things to be written to disk
99 2012-12-14 01:00:30 <slush> hm
100 2012-12-14 01:00:45 <sipa> cache helps for reading, not for writing
101 2012-12-14 01:00:56 <slush> so storing everything in RAM (and making snapshots every hour or so) looks like the best solution
102 2012-12-14 01:01:01 <slush> but it requires really lot of ram
103 2012-12-14 01:01:16 <sipa> in 0.8, coins/ is only 150 MiB or so
104 2012-12-14 01:01:25 <slush> oh nice
105 2012-12-14 01:01:27 <sipa> and it is cached inside the client anyway
106 2012-12-14 01:01:46 <slush> so 0.8 won't require SSD in RAID anymore? ;)
107 2012-12-14 01:01:57 <sipa> no
108 2012-12-14 01:02:06 <sipa> well... maybe... depending on what you need
109 2012-12-14 01:02:24 <sipa> at times it writes block files to disk before relaying them, you probably still want that writing to be fast
110 2012-12-14 01:03:09 <slush> why it should wait to disk I/O before relaying them?
111 2012-12-14 01:03:21 <sipa> because that happens in the same thread
112 2012-12-14 01:03:27 <slush> but well, storing hundreds of MB in RAM is no problem
113 2012-12-14 01:03:32 <sipa> i'd like to change that, but it's somewhat of a large refactor
114 2012-12-14 01:03:37 <slush> I see
115 2012-12-14 01:05:50 <slush> sipa: to safely restore database from crash, I need snapshot of blk files and database/ from the same time, correct?
116 2012-12-14 01:06:37 <sipa> technically, only of blkindex.dat and database/ - the corresponding blk0*.dat files can be snapshotted later
117 2012-12-14 01:06:55 <slush> hm, perfect
118 2012-12-14 01:07:22 <sipa> how will you do that?
119 2012-12-14 01:07:27 <slush> LVM in ramdisk
120 2012-12-14 01:07:30 <sipa> lvm snapshot?
121 2012-12-14 01:07:31 <sipa> right
122 2012-12-14 01:07:41 <slush> will store database/ and blkindex, which is less than 1 GB in size
123 2012-12-14 01:07:50 <slush> and blk files on disk
124 2012-12-14 01:08:15 <sipa> that should be safe
125 2012-12-14 01:08:29 <slush> absolutely last stupid question, at least for this time:
126 2012-12-14 01:08:53 zapsoda has joined
127 2012-12-14 01:08:55 <zapsoda> Anyone know what data type "getbalance" returns?
128 2012-12-14 01:09:15 <slush> do I need snapshots of blk files at all? Or can I provide snapshot of blkindex + database/ and put it together with any newer version of blk files?
129 2012-12-14 01:10:13 <sipa> slush: that's fine
130 2012-12-14 01:10:19 <sipa> the blk files are append-only
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137 2012-12-14 01:29:31 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: ping
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142 2012-12-14 02:21:31 <jgarzik> a Hal-post! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128042.msg1398752#msg1398752
143 2012-12-14 02:23:48 <gavinandresen> Huzzah! even though it looks like he found a bug we should have noticed two years ago....
144 2012-12-14 02:26:49 <sipa> that's.... shameful
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148 2012-12-14 02:34:30 * gavinandresen feels shame
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150 2012-12-14 02:38:43 <D34TH> gavinandresen, sometimes answers are overlooked, but they are always found in the end
151 2012-12-14 02:40:08 <sipa> i wondered why people claimed it always put the real output first
152 2012-12-14 02:40:18 <sipa> while obviously the code randomizes...
153 2012-12-14 02:40:27 <Luke-Jr> XD
154 2012-12-14 02:41:10 <sipa> that means a quite significant part of bitcoin history just became somewhat more traceable (to the extent the round amounts didn't reveal that already)
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158 2012-12-14 02:46:57 <gavinandresen> sipa: getting an error gbuilding win32_boost: http://pastebin.com/AVXsnNux provided command 'i686-w64-mingw32-g++' not found
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160 2012-12-14 02:49:26 <sipa> gavinandresen: hmm, i used an image with several packages already installed
161 2012-12-14 02:49:52 <sipa> perhaps mingw-w64 only install gcc and not g++
162 2012-12-14 02:50:04 <sipa> i'll have a look, but now i need sleep :)
163 2012-12-14 02:50:14 <gavinandresen> go to sleep, I'm about to end for the night, too
164 2012-12-14 02:50:25 <gavinandresen> I'll post in the pull request so we don't forget
165 2012-12-14 02:51:10 <zeks2> can someone help me to explain what means Network ID for the primary blockchain in eloipool ?
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170 2012-12-14 03:13:48 <D34TH> hmm, it seems that i have just been attacked on ipv6
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177 2012-12-14 03:38:38 <da2ce7> with collecting entorpy with c++ is there any blocking 'random' call that will not return untill enough entropy has been collected?
178 2012-12-14 03:40:25 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: pong
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181 2012-12-14 03:44:19 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: are you going to fix that gitian bug?
182 2012-12-14 03:45:20 <theymos> da2ce7: Standard C++ doesn't have any cryptographic randomness functions AFAIK.
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184 2012-12-14 03:48:57 <da2ce7> http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/random/random_device/ except requires a compiler (and system that supports it)...
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237 2012-12-14 07:13:35 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: which one?
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256 2012-12-14 08:11:51 <midnightmagic> da2ce7: Here's a really eye-popping thread about the new /dev/random on NetBSD http://mail-index.netbsd.org/tech-kern/2011/12/09/msg012085.html
257 2012-12-14 08:12:17 <da2ce7> midnightmagic: thank I'll check it out.
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316 2012-12-14 11:33:36 <Diablo-D3> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130795.0
317 2012-12-14 11:40:58 Gladamas has joined
318 2012-12-14 11:43:13 <Jouke> >_<
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321 2012-12-14 11:52:57 <MC1984> Diablo-D3 that doesnt look like shilling
322 2012-12-14 11:53:16 <MC1984> just looks like more neutral language and removal of some out of date info
323 2012-12-14 11:53:53 <MC1984> u trollin?
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326 2012-12-14 12:00:07 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: dude, you need to get a grip on your trolling impulses. It's embarassing for everyone who knows you.
327 2012-12-14 12:01:57 Kisume has joined
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329 2012-12-14 12:10:36 <Graet> lukes wiki vandalism has gone on for too long, it should have facts not his opinion
330 2012-12-14 12:18:20 <upb> REPENT!
331 2012-12-14 12:25:06 <sta> how centralized will ASIC mining make bitcoin?
332 2012-12-14 12:25:52 <gmaxwell> Graet: did you even look at it or are you just responding based on a general irritation w/ luke? Because seriously, the edit was totally reasonable... and I would have made it myself if someone had pointed it out.
333 2012-12-14 12:26:32 <sta> BFL is the only mining-ASIC name that i know of (my mind-share)
334 2012-12-14 12:26:49 <sta> maybe i haven't been looking into this enough
335 2012-12-14 12:27:16 <sta> if there are other people selling ASIC miners, it would be nice to know
336 2012-12-14 12:28:02 <sta> of course, if i ever dare order one, it'll probably be caught at the airport
337 2012-12-14 12:28:05 <_dr> bASIC
338 2012-12-14 12:28:19 <sta> and i'll be charged 12345 EUR for customs
339 2012-12-14 12:28:37 <sta> (last time it was just 123 EUR, so this time they'll probably add a few more digits, i guess)
340 2012-12-14 12:31:24 <Graet> i looked at that and i also have seen other edits of his over the last 14 months gmaxwell
341 2012-12-14 12:33:32 <Luke-Jr> Graet'
342 2012-12-14 12:33:46 <Luke-Jr> Graet's become a troll in recent months; all my wiki edits are factual
343 2012-12-14 12:34:17 <Graet> like your ltc ones calling it a scam, but now you suport scrypt mining?
344 2012-12-14 12:34:43 <Graet> you throw troll and bad for bitcoin around too much dude, your credibilty is slipping in the community
345 2012-12-14 12:35:03 Joric has joined
346 2012-12-14 12:35:08 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder/issues/26
347 2012-12-14 12:37:19 <sipa> Luke-Jr: meh, i just use a wrapper around gbuild that dumps the commit i want in inputs/bitcoin
348 2012-12-14 12:37:26 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
349 2012-12-14 12:37:45 <Joric> should i rebase pull request into a single commit if there are a lot of small changes
350 2012-12-14 12:38:16 <sipa> Joric: depends whether the changes make sense on their own
351 2012-12-14 12:38:24 <Luke-Jr> sipa: well, it affects everyone using gitian
352 2012-12-14 12:38:51 <sipa> Luke-Jr: yes, imho that's the only thing gitian should do, instead of trying to figure out where to fetch from and automating things
353 2012-12-14 12:39:21 <gmaxwell> Graet: Perhaps some of the edits have been questionable, but when you attack reasonable ones you weaken your argument and lose a chance to encourage luke to be more thoughtful when editing.
354 2012-12-14 12:39:34 <Luke-Jr> in other news, new Atlas vandalism-shill: Anym
355 2012-12-14 12:39:39 <Joric> sipa, does it work at all? did you rebase your pull requests?
356 2012-12-14 12:39:50 <sipa> Joric: i continuously rebase :)
357 2012-12-14 12:40:08 <sipa> Joric: i'm sure ultraprune was rebased 100 times during development or so
358 2012-12-14 12:40:55 <gmaxwell> Joric: do whatever creates the most clarity.
359 2012-12-14 12:41:09 <gmaxwell> (even if its a bit more workâ the revision history is forever)
360 2012-12-14 12:41:46 <Luke-Jr> (on further review, Anym seems to be more than an Atlas-shill, nevermind)
361 2012-12-14 12:41:53 <Graet> i never had a chance to influence Luke-Jr , he decided he didnt likeme based on a conversation i was having with DrHaribo over a year ago... something about offending his religius morals because i have children....
362 2012-12-14 12:42:26 <Graet> now if i ask him a question he avoids it and calls me a trol...
363 2012-12-14 12:42:48 <sipa> Joric: in general, if you can have commits that result in a compiling/functional state of the program, and are somewhat useful on their own, keep the commits separate
364 2012-12-14 12:42:51 <sipa> but that's a fuzzy rule
365 2012-12-14 12:42:56 <Graet> my forum post history is available for anyone to point out the trollish posts - no-one has...
366 2012-12-14 12:43:20 <Graet> i try to avoid having conversatiomn with luke now... its just pointless
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388 2012-12-14 13:26:23 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: btw, I think you didnt notice he removed asicminer
389 2012-12-14 13:28:10 Azelphur has quit (Excess Flood)
390 2012-12-14 13:28:42 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: ... I did notice, and commented that it had no business being there!
391 2012-12-14 13:28:55 <Diablo-D3> an asic vendor has no business being there?
392 2012-12-14 13:29:07 <Diablo-D3> lets remove all of them then.
393 2012-12-14 13:29:30 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: Whats its hash rate? How much power does it draw? When will it be available to the public? OH WAIT. The answer to all these questions is N/A because at this time it's a centeralzed hash farm with a defunct GLBSE security.
394 2012-12-14 13:29:51 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: nope
395 2012-12-14 13:30:00 <gmaxwell> (and in fact, I did previously remove all the non-shipping products from the pageâ but other people didn't agree)
396 2012-12-14 13:30:01 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: infact, I may end up buying the first two available
397 2012-12-14 13:30:53 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: I checked before talking to you, 'making hardware available to the public' is "future" for them with an unspecified timeframe.
398 2012-12-14 13:31:07 <gmaxwell> Might as well list me thereâ hey, I might make miners available to the public in the future.
399 2012-12-14 13:31:09 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: it depends entirely on how well the first run goes
400 2012-12-14 13:31:23 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: most likely, there will be enough to sell
401 2012-12-14 13:32:14 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
402 2012-12-14 13:32:17 Azelphur has joined
403 2012-12-14 13:32:51 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: 'enough', as in "so long as there is enough yeild to give the central farm a majority of hash power we might sell a few to other people" ? :P More seriously, there isn't any proposed specs/pricing/etc. for that. it's even worse pure speculation than the rest.
404 2012-12-14 13:33:06 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: there is proposed pricing
405 2012-12-14 13:33:09 <Diablo-D3> its all in the thread.
406 2012-12-14 13:33:28 <Diablo-D3> what friedcat is worried about is the whole "fabbing in china" thing
407 2012-12-14 13:33:54 <Diablo-D3> since this is asicminer's first run, yield numbers might be much worse than what he contracted for with the fab
408 2012-12-14 13:34:28 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: what you're getting confused with is, unlike scams like bfl, he has not taken preorders for units
409 2012-12-14 13:34:43 <Diablo-D3> thats the sign of an honest businessman
410 2012-12-14 13:34:59 <Diablo-D3> bfl and basic? both kneedeep in orders they cant fill.
411 2012-12-14 13:35:50 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
412 2012-12-14 13:35:51 <zeks2> i agree
413 2012-12-14 13:36:08 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: Oh, how could I be more mistaken! everyone raising hundreds of thousands of dollars on GLBSE has been completely honest in the past!
414 2012-12-14 13:36:20 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: /me shrugs
415 2012-12-14 13:36:35 <Diablo-D3> I thought I was the jaded one, but hey, dont let me stop you
416 2012-12-14 13:36:37 <gmaxwell> ... at least preorders have standard consumer protection laws to back them up... GLBSE investments? Pound sand.
417 2012-12-14 13:36:47 datagutt has joined
418 2012-12-14 13:36:50 <Diablo-D3> preorders dont have consumer protection laws
419 2012-12-14 13:36:59 <gmaxwell> But in any case, it's still misplaced for the page.
420 2012-12-14 13:37:24 <gmaxwell> (as are all the other speculative products, but moreso the less concrete the product offering)
421 2012-12-14 13:37:33 <Diablo-D3> okay so, luke improving bfl's language to cover up that its a scam and then nuking the text for the only legit vendor on the page is okay?
422 2012-12-14 13:37:35 <Diablo-D3> the hell man
423 2012-12-14 13:39:13 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
424 2012-12-14 13:39:37 <gmaxwell> the language he changed was language _I_ wrote. https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Mining_hardware_comparison&diff=31436&oldid=31434 and I'm fine with the change.
425 2012-12-14 13:39:57 datagutt is now known as datagoute
426 2012-12-14 13:43:05 <Diablo-D3> Dont care. And quit unstickying threads.
427 2012-12-14 13:43:32 <Diablo-D3> luke has to answer for his trolling, leave it.
428 2012-12-14 13:45:50 <gmaxwell> ... there isn't any trolling there, as now four or five people have told you. We should be deleting that sort of thread, not creating them, and certantly not stickying them.
429 2012-12-14 13:46:33 <Diablo-D3> fine, then I send the bfl thread into the abyss as well as part of my anti-scam policy.
430 2012-12-14 13:46:39 <Diablo-D3> its either or, gmaxwell
431 2012-12-14 13:46:46 <Diablo-D3> you dont get both
432 2012-12-14 13:47:14 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
433 2012-12-14 13:48:30 <sipa> i don't see why there would be any argument that one or the other is a scam
434 2012-12-14 13:48:49 <sipa> it's purely speculation
435 2012-12-14 13:49:57 <Diablo-D3> sipa: because bfl has basically admitted there are no units and never will be
436 2012-12-14 13:50:45 <sipa> link?
437 2012-12-14 13:51:02 gavinandresen has joined
438 2012-12-14 13:52:06 <Diablo-D3> its somewhere on the forum
439 2012-12-14 13:52:23 <Diablo-D3> bfl purposely had their shills start hundreds of troll threads to make it hard to find information about bfl
440 2012-12-14 13:52:28 <Diablo-D3> I fixed the problem.
441 2012-12-14 13:53:44 <sipa> i asked for a link
442 2012-12-14 13:54:13 Jamesz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
443 2012-12-14 13:54:14 <Diablo-D3> yes, and I said go find it yourself
444 2012-12-14 13:54:30 <Diablo-D3> it might have gotten misplaced in the cleanup
445 2012-12-14 13:54:58 <sipa> you're claiming something i don't believe, i think it's up to you to prove it
446 2012-12-14 13:55:10 drizztbsd has joined
447 2012-12-14 13:55:28 <Diablo-D3> no, you're trying to argue in favor of bfl like gmaxwell is
448 2012-12-14 13:55:38 <Diablo-D3> and Im just wondering why anyone would protect a scam
449 2012-12-14 13:56:54 <_dr> i think you're arguing in favor of your friend and are spreading FUD about bfl without backing it up
450 2012-12-14 13:57:02 <_dr> because you misplaced the url, yeah right :)
451 2012-12-14 13:57:38 <sipa> i'm not arguing in favor of anything - i simply say there is no way to know if anything would be a scam
452 2012-12-14 13:57:41 <Diablo-D3> _dr: what friend?
453 2012-12-14 13:58:06 <Diablo-D3> sipa: well, how do you prove a negative anyhow? just keep letting bfl roll back the ship date month after month?
454 2012-12-14 13:59:10 <_dr> Diablo-D3: you seem to know this friedcat fellow, which you advertise as an honest businessman
455 2012-12-14 13:59:11 <sipa> if they keep doing that, i suppose you can start a discussion about it
456 2012-12-14 13:59:20 <sipa> but you claimed they admitted not producing any units
457 2012-12-14 13:59:24 <_dr> and claim that bfl would be debunked as a scam, without any proof
458 2012-12-14 13:59:26 <sipa> and that would seriously surprise me
459 2012-12-14 13:59:28 <_dr> seems rather biased to me
460 2012-12-14 14:00:20 <gmaxwell> I'm really disappointed in Diablo-D3's behavior. :( Though since its so transparent I don't think there is any value in arguing further about it. Can we talk about something else?
461 2012-12-14 14:00:32 <sipa> yes, please
462 2012-12-14 14:00:36 <Diablo-D3> _dr: nope, not a friend
463 2012-12-14 14:00:46 <Diablo-D3> _dr: the list of people I call friends is very short, he isnt on it
464 2012-12-14 14:00:50 <sta> bfl a scam?
465 2012-12-14 14:00:58 <Diablo-D3> sta: pretty sure, yes
466 2012-12-14 14:01:36 <sta> maybe the asic core or something should be open-cored
467 2012-12-14 14:01:47 <Diablo-D3> well, it basically already is
468 2012-12-14 14:02:02 <Diablo-D3> avalon and bfl are using existing IP cores
469 2012-12-14 14:02:20 <Diablo-D3> and so is asicminer
470 2012-12-14 14:02:34 <Diablo-D3> and I think tycho's shit is as well
471 2012-12-14 14:03:06 <sta> is there someone who sells asic miners, from which i can just order and have the thing in a few days or a week or so?
472 2012-12-14 14:03:14 <Diablo-D3> sta: no
473 2012-12-14 14:03:17 <sta> all this "preorder" stuff is annoying
474 2012-12-14 14:03:19 <Diablo-D3> they're all waiting for the chips from the fab
475 2012-12-14 14:04:51 <sta> well, i guess i'll have to use some kind of dispute-resolving, escrow mechanism...
476 2012-12-14 14:05:45 <Diablo-D3> or just wait until the chips are done.
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481 2012-12-14 14:22:28 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr's edits look OK
482 2012-12-14 14:22:31 epscy has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
483 2012-12-14 14:22:42 <jgarzik> the previous text was unnecessarily inflammatory
484 2012-12-14 14:23:07 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: so bfl stays, yet is a scam, but asicminer goes, and is probably going to be the first company with asics?
485 2012-12-14 14:23:18 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
486 2012-12-14 14:24:15 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: 1) Zero proof BFL is a scam, 2) BFL has actually shipped products, unlike others, 3) "probably going to be" is meaningless, as history shows delays are inevitable
487 2012-12-14 14:24:57 <Diablo-D3> no, delays really arent inevitable
488 2012-12-14 14:25:05 <Diablo-D3> the bfl delays were because they lied
489 2012-12-14 14:25:23 <Diablo-D3> and probably did it just so they could get away with it again as part of a long con
490 2012-12-14 14:25:29 <jgarzik> Uh huh. Zero evidence of that, too.
491 2012-12-14 14:26:04 <Diablo-D3> um, has bfl shipped asics? no.
492 2012-12-14 14:26:08 <Diablo-D3> theres all the evidence you need.
493 2012-12-14 14:26:13 <sipa> has anyone shipped asics? no.
494 2012-12-14 14:26:24 <Diablo-D3> sipa: people have been shipping asics for 40 years.
495 2012-12-14 14:26:26 <denisx> I hope they will never do! ;)
496 2012-12-14 14:26:54 <sipa> let's give them all the benefit of the doubt until there is more than speculation
497 2012-12-14 14:27:07 <Diablo-D3> sipa: bfl had their time
498 2012-12-14 14:27:21 <sipa> gavinandresen: updated the leveldb17 branch - the package name was wrong
499 2012-12-14 14:27:24 <Diablo-D3> they said they would ship in sept, failed, said oct, failed, said nov, failed, said dec, and is now failing that and pushing it to jan
500 2012-12-14 14:27:27 <m0mchil> just don't
501 2012-12-14 14:27:32 <m0mchil> feed the troll
502 2012-12-14 14:27:39 <Diablo-D3> so when the hell do you call it a troll?
503 2012-12-14 14:27:40 <gavinandresen> sipa: great, thanks
504 2012-12-14 14:27:40 <Diablo-D3> er
505 2012-12-14 14:27:43 <Diablo-D3> so when the hell do you call it a scam?
506 2012-12-14 14:27:51 <jgarzik> ASICMINER seems the most questionable of all the ASIC projects, as they do not seem to distribute the chips to the masses.
507 2012-12-14 14:27:51 <Diablo-D3> Ive given them enough time
508 2012-12-14 14:28:00 <sipa> Diablo-D3: i call them all potential scams until one ships; happy?
509 2012-12-14 14:28:01 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: except they are
510 2012-12-14 14:28:13 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: people apparently cannot read
511 2012-12-14 14:28:14 <jgarzik> It is disappointing that all that hashing power consolidates in so few hands.
512 2012-12-14 14:28:16 <Diablo-D3> and I find this sad
513 2012-12-14 14:28:23 <Diablo-D3> the first x th belongs to the investors
514 2012-12-14 14:28:30 <Diablo-D3> the rest os being sold
515 2012-12-14 14:28:40 <Diablo-D3> *is
516 2012-12-14 14:28:54 <Diablo-D3> it says it right there in the fucking thread.
517 2012-12-14 14:29:08 * gavinandresen puts dd3 on his ignore list again
518 2012-12-14 14:29:12 <Diablo-D3> people keep thinking preordering == sales
519 2012-12-14 14:29:12 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt
520 2012-12-14 14:29:30 <Diablo-D3> its an investment just like how investors invested in asicminer
521 2012-12-14 14:29:51 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ditto
522 2012-12-14 14:29:54 <sipa> same
523 2012-12-14 14:29:56 <Diablo-D3> its like everytime someone brings up consumer laws in the bfl thread
524 2012-12-14 14:30:05 <Diablo-D3> how do consumer laws protect investors? it doesnt
525 2012-12-14 14:30:20 <Diablo-D3> they are not preorders by customers no matter what the language bfl or the investors used
526 2012-12-14 14:30:29 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: please take this elsewhere.
527 2012-12-14 14:30:34 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: whatever
528 2012-12-14 14:30:38 <Diablo-D3> just quit shitting for bfl
529 2012-12-14 14:30:45 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik, sipa: same goes for you two as well
530 2012-12-14 14:35:36 <sta> denisx: after searching a bit about the asic business, i couldn't help noticing that a lot of people seem to work in a kinda "closed" way; i.e. they make them, they use them
531 2012-12-14 14:36:24 <sta> which is kind of logical, if you think about it...
532 2012-12-14 14:37:01 <denisx> sta: you meant me?
533 2012-12-14 14:37:19 <sta> you were "hoping" they never ship
534 2012-12-14 14:37:48 rdponticelli has joined
535 2012-12-14 14:38:09 <denisx> sta: ah ok, yeah, I have some fpga boards and the arrival of the asics is a desaster for me ;)
536 2012-12-14 14:38:10 owowoinsomnia has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
537 2012-12-14 14:38:41 <Diablo-D3> fpga was a mistake anyhow
538 2012-12-14 14:39:53 <abracadabra> meh
539 2012-12-14 14:39:57 <abracadabra> was just a stepping stone
540 2012-12-14 14:40:11 <abracadabra> people wanted them
541 2012-12-14 14:40:15 <abracadabra> somebody made them
542 2012-12-14 14:40:17 owowo has joined
543 2012-12-14 14:40:23 <Diablo-D3> fpgas are useful for hardware development
544 2012-12-14 14:40:24 <abracadabra> capitalism
545 2012-12-14 14:40:28 <Diablo-D3> they're not very useful for selling them
546 2012-12-14 14:46:41 datagoute is now known as datagutt
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548 2012-12-14 14:54:15 <gavinandresen> sipa: boost-w64-win32 built nicely.
549 2012-12-14 14:58:24 <sipa> gavinandresen: well, it built for me, so i'm pretty sure that given the same environment it will build for you as well
550 2012-12-14 14:58:33 <sipa> gavinandresen: the problem is whether it works :)
551 2012-12-14 14:59:57 <sipa> especially the native windows leveldb env i'm not sure about - it looks well researched and people have congratulated the author on the mailing list, but it's still just something some guy wrote, and not part of leveldb itself
552 2012-12-14 15:00:52 DMCommit has joined
553 2012-12-14 15:00:52 <DMCommit> [DiabloMiner] Diablo-D3 pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/wKLacw
554 2012-12-14 15:00:52 <DMCommit> DiabloMiner/master 541a255 Patrick McFarland: Forcefully disconnect HTTP on any error
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556 2012-12-14 15:04:57 winemaker has joined
557 2012-12-14 15:05:09 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: thank you
558 2012-12-14 15:05:36 <MC1984> diablo needs to calm his tits
559 2012-12-14 15:06:13 <Diablo-D3> lol gmaxwell just banned the github bot
560 2012-12-14 15:06:21 <Diablo-D3> what a moron
561 2012-12-14 15:06:52 <drizztbsd> lol why?
562 2012-12-14 15:07:09 <TD> there's a separate channel for commits, i think
563 2012-12-14 15:07:27 <winemaker> how can i speed up the syncronisation with the bitcoin network? its 2 days now and only 80% and getting more and more slow
564 2012-12-14 15:07:41 <jgarzik> diablominer commit messages are appropriate for #bitcoin-mining, not #bitcoin-dev
565 2012-12-14 15:07:50 <Diablo-D3> td: didnt use to be
566 2012-12-14 15:07:52 <jgarzik> winemaker: what version of bitcoind / Bitcoin-Qt?
567 2012-12-14 15:08:04 <sipa> winemaker: for release versions, best way to speed it up is running it in a tmpfs/ramdrive; upcoming 0.8 should be much faster out of the box
568 2012-12-14 15:08:07 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: commit messages are not appropriate for non-dev channels
569 2012-12-14 15:08:07 <TD> winemaker: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=129861.0
570 2012-12-14 15:08:10 <jgarzik> winemaker: in general, if you hit a bad peer, you can restart to find a new peer
571 2012-12-14 15:08:14 <MC1984> winemaker wait for 0.8 release
572 2012-12-14 15:08:25 <TD> there's been a #bitcoin-commits for a while
573 2012-12-14 15:08:30 <winemaker> v0.7.1-beta bitcoin-qt
574 2012-12-14 15:08:39 <sipa> gavinandresen: how's the 0.7.2 release?
575 2012-12-14 15:08:45 <jgarzik> TD: I wouldn't mind seeing mainline bitcoin.git commits on this channel
576 2012-12-14 15:08:54 <jgarzik> but not, e.g. picocoin/pynode commits
577 2012-12-14 15:09:01 <winemaker> i already set nat on port8333 to my computer... but only 8 connections
578 2012-12-14 15:09:08 <gavinandresen> sipa: oh, yeah! Almost forgot about 0.7.2... ready to announce, I think
579 2012-12-14 15:09:10 <sipa> winemaker: connections hardly matter
580 2012-12-14 15:09:42 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: I previously pointed #bitcoin-commits out to you. And if you were paying any attention to this channel you might have noticed that there are no commits comming here. If we don't have bitcoin.org git commits coming here we surely don't want miner ones. It's nothing personal.
581 2012-12-14 15:09:43 <gavinandresen> #bitcoin-commits has been broken for a while
582 2012-12-14 15:10:12 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: erm, Ive seen commits in here
583 2012-12-14 15:10:15 <Diablo-D3> for quite some time
584 2012-12-14 15:10:17 <gavinandresen> (volunteers to fix it or create a #bitcoin-this-one-really-works-commits welcome)
585 2012-12-14 15:10:47 <winemaker> when will 0.8 be published?
586 2012-12-14 15:11:00 Gladamas has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 90 seconds.)
587 2012-12-14 15:11:01 <sipa> when it's ready (don't expect it soon)
588 2012-12-14 15:11:08 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
589 2012-12-14 15:11:11 <sta> heh
590 2012-12-14 15:11:30 <gavinandresen> 0.8 will be ready sooner if we get more people helping to test and find/fix bugs
591 2012-12-14 15:11:32 <TD> yay, new intellij
592 2012-12-14 15:11:42 <TD> winemaker: yeah every bit of testing helps
593 2012-12-14 15:12:13 <helo> gavinandresen: what kind of testing is not covered by unit tests?
594 2012-12-14 15:12:42 <sipa> helo: performance, data corruption/recovery, whole-application behaviour, ...
595 2012-12-14 15:12:50 <gavinandresen> helo: upgrade/downgrade behavior...
596 2012-12-14 15:13:16 <gavinandresen> ummm, whether it works on older or newer versions of OS'es
597 2012-12-14 15:13:25 <jgarzik> helo: a lot
598 2012-12-14 15:13:38 <jgarzik> helo: JSON-RPC, P2P interaction with other nodes, ...
599 2012-12-14 15:13:48 <jgarzik> unit tests just cover very low level, discrete actions
600 2012-12-14 15:13:50 <TD> unit tests are a useful tool, but software correctness is hard. the more techniques you use to find problems the better
601 2012-12-14 15:13:54 <jgarzik> not higher level network behavior
602 2012-12-14 15:14:00 <winemaker> i've got some low c++ skills.. so if you need help ^^ .. why does my client only have 8 connections? wouldnt more speed up the bootstrap?
603 2012-12-14 15:14:04 GitHub96 has joined
604 2012-12-14 15:14:04 <GitHub96> [DiabloMiner] none pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/lfk9mw
605 2012-12-14 15:14:04 <GitHub96> DiabloMiner/master e24b626 Patrick McFarland: Improve INVALID_GLOBAL_OFFSET test, add atomic to GPU workSize
606 2012-12-14 15:14:04 <GitHub96> DiabloMiner/master 3d39a10 Patrick McFarland: Forgot to initalize atomic workSize
607 2012-12-14 15:14:04 <GitHub96> DiabloMiner/master 541a255 Patrick McFarland: Forcefully disconnect HTTP on any error
608 2012-12-14 15:14:04 GitHub96 has left ()
609 2012-12-14 15:14:10 <gavinandresen> Satoshi didn't really do automated testing, so we started out way behind
610 2012-12-14 15:14:22 <Diablo-D3> grrr
611 2012-12-14 15:14:22 <sipa> winemaker: it actually just fetches from one connection
612 2012-12-14 15:14:28 <jgarzik> winemaker: additional connections will not speed up bootstrap
613 2012-12-14 15:14:31 <sipa> winemaker: that's a flaw, but a rather hard one to fix
614 2012-12-14 15:14:36 * Diablo-D3 hits save THEN test hook
615 2012-12-14 15:14:48 <TD> winemaker: if you allow inbound connections it'll get more over time
616 2012-12-14 15:14:58 BurtyB has joined
617 2012-12-14 15:14:59 <sipa> winemaker: and it only makes 8 outgoing connections max; if you want more connections you need to be reachable by other nodes
618 2012-12-14 15:15:04 <gmaxwell> winemaker: more connections do not speed up the bootstrapping, however.
619 2012-12-14 15:15:20 <gmaxwell> (at least not today)
620 2012-12-14 15:15:23 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: there, its in fucking mining
621 2012-12-14 15:15:26 <MC1984> what is the most useful way a normal dude could test for you
622 2012-12-14 15:15:30 <Diablo-D3> I will route all bitching to you
623 2012-12-14 15:15:35 <sipa> MC1984: try to break it
624 2012-12-14 15:15:43 <MC1984> like me, where i hardly move cins around at all
625 2012-12-14 15:15:54 <sipa> MC1984: like unplug your power cable while syncing
626 2012-12-14 15:16:06 <gmaxwell> MC1984: use the software in evil ways. Do all the things you'd normally do with it, then when that fails to kill it start trying to do weird crap.
627 2012-12-14 15:16:06 <TD> MC1984: so use it as an excuse to move some :) but yeah software testing is an art. you don't need to know programming to be able to do it, but it's still a skill
628 2012-12-14 15:16:19 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: I already fixed it
629 2012-12-14 15:16:23 <winemaker> i think i'm reacheble for other nodes... if you mean the port8333 thing i did this already... is there a way to find an fast node and connect only with this to speed up the bootstrap?
630 2012-12-14 15:16:27 <TD> you normally want to think "how was this intended to be used? how can I abuse it in ways the devs wouldn't expect"
631 2012-12-14 15:16:34 <Diablo-D3> [10:01:31] * Diablo-D3 hits save THEN test hook
632 2012-12-14 15:16:35 <Diablo-D3> [10:01:31] * Diablo-D3 hits save THEN test hook
633 2012-12-14 15:16:35 <Diablo-D3> [10:01:31] * Diablo-D3 hits save THEN test hook
634 2012-12-14 15:16:38 <TD> try to figure out what assumptions the developers made, then violate them
635 2012-12-14 15:16:48 <sipa> winemaker: that will help yes; you can start with -connect=IP, and for bootstrap it certainly matters
636 2012-12-14 15:16:48 <Diablo-D3> seriously, I think everybody is trying to get on my nerves today
637 2012-12-14 15:16:55 <gmaxwell> Knowing programming is very helpful with testing but absolutely not required.
638 2012-12-14 15:17:00 <MC1984> i can get new builds and pull the USB stick while its syncing again and stuff?
639 2012-12-14 15:17:09 <sipa> MC1984: yes, do that!
640 2012-12-14 15:17:16 <winemaker> sipa: you know any fast ip for -connect=
641 2012-12-14 15:17:52 <jgarzik> winemaker: You can also download a big chunk of the block chain via bittorrent, and then import from local disk: [BETA] Bitcoin blockchain torrent - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117982.0
642 2012-12-14 15:17:53 <MC1984> so for reference doing that shouldnt corrupt the whole thing right?
643 2012-12-14 15:17:54 <sipa> winemaker: you can use my server (bitcoin.sipa.be, 178.18.90.41), and I'm sure jeff has some too
644 2012-12-14 15:18:03 <gmaxwell> MC1984: delete random files. swap around versions. try to run two copies against the same data directory... Be a dumb user and do all the stuff we'd make fun of you for doing otherwise.
645 2012-12-14 15:18:03 <sipa> MC1984: indeed
646 2012-12-14 15:18:28 BurtyBB has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
647 2012-12-14 15:18:29 <gmaxwell> You might find some broken things that are too far out to bother fixing, but its better to know about them and make that choice.
648 2012-12-14 15:18:36 <MC1984> "be a dumb user" i think i can manage that :)
649 2012-12-14 15:18:37 <jgarzik> winemaker: what sipa said. My servers are us2.exmulti.net / us4.exmulti.net / eu3.exmulti.net
650 2012-12-14 15:19:04 <sipa> MC1984: also, if you increase -dbcache, data will be written to disk in larger batches during IBD
651 2012-12-14 15:19:11 <winemaker> thx i'll try
652 2012-12-14 15:19:16 <gmaxwell> MC1984: try send negative testcoins to people, etc.
653 2012-12-14 15:19:22 <sipa> MC1984: which makes it easier to find a worst-case moment to remove your USB stick :)
654 2012-12-14 15:19:50 <MC1984> what dbcache value do you recommend
655 2012-12-14 15:19:58 <sipa> as large as you can tolerate
656 2012-12-14 15:19:58 <MC1984> and i dont know what testcoins are
657 2012-12-14 15:20:03 <sta> should be libdb's issue
658 2012-12-14 15:20:10 <sipa> (it's a number in megabytes)
659 2012-12-14 15:20:21 <gmaxwell> MC1984: also, while you do this stuff, pay attentonâ many of the more interesting bugs I've found have been while trying to break some _other_ part of it and then saying "hey... that output looks funny..."
660 2012-12-14 15:21:31 Kisume has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
661 2012-12-14 15:22:01 <sipa> etotheipi_: in your proposal, why do you need Hash(ChainCode(i)).. Hash(randomnumber) works just as well and isn't tied to some key derivation scheme
662 2012-12-14 15:23:43 <MC1984> is there a chance that this beta software might send real coins into the abyss if i try to send them anywhere with it
663 2012-12-14 15:24:14 <helo> of course
664 2012-12-14 15:24:25 <helo> pretty unlikely with a locked wallet though :P
665 2012-12-14 15:24:43 <gavinandresen> MC1984: unlikely, but testing on the testnet is always a good idea
666 2012-12-14 15:24:45 <gmaxwell> MC1984: yes, so test with testnet for test involving actually sending coins.
667 2012-12-14 15:24:45 <helo> oh, "if i try to send them"... more likely
668 2012-12-14 15:25:25 <gmaxwell> also if you test on testnet you don't need to feel any guilt about creating a ton of junk transactions.
669 2012-12-14 15:26:46 <MC1984> how do i get on the testnet and hen get some testnet coins
670 2012-12-14 15:27:26 <gmaxwell> start with testnet=1 on your commandline or bitcoin conf ... and there is a testnet faucet or you ask here.
671 2012-12-14 15:27:36 <gmaxwell> (also, it's not hard to cpu mine some testnet)
672 2012-12-14 15:28:04 <MC1984> oh right
673 2012-12-14 15:28:50 <MC1984> how big is the test blockchain assuming its seperate
674 2012-12-14 15:29:20 * gavinandresen needs to fix the testnet faucet
675 2012-12-14 15:30:07 Diapolo has joined
676 2012-12-14 15:30:13 <drizztbsd> gavinandresen: aleluja! :D
677 2012-12-14 15:30:34 <gavinandresen> I said I need to, I didn't say I was going to :)
678 2012-12-14 15:30:56 <drizztbsd> doh
679 2012-12-14 15:31:05 <gmaxwell> MC1984: about 15mbytes.
680 2012-12-14 15:31:20 <helo> -testnet=1 -gen?
681 2012-12-14 15:31:40 <gmaxwell> helo: sure, or use an rpc miner with it.
682 2012-12-14 15:33:38 <gmaxwell> there is a testnet p2pool, though at the moment no one may be on it.
683 2012-12-14 15:34:05 <gmaxwell> (I switch between it and solo rpc mining testnet)
684 2012-12-14 15:34:13 <MC1984> will the multi-tread verification patch make a difference on a CPU with 1 core and hyperthreading?
685 2012-12-14 15:34:38 <drizztbsd> often hyperthread is SLOWER than software threads
686 2012-12-14 15:36:24 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (away!~PiZZaMaN2@unaffiliated/pizzaman2k|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
687 2012-12-14 15:36:37 Z0rZ0rZ0r has joined
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689 2012-12-14 15:38:20 <gmaxwell> drizztbsd: confused statement is confused.
690 2012-12-14 15:38:45 <zeks2> i dont understand at eloipool how it works with payment, when it pays out?
691 2012-12-14 15:38:59 <Diapolo> helo: you can also use just -testnet
692 2012-12-14 15:39:02 <gmaxwell> MC1984: you try it and tell us! on the E3-1230 using the HT threads appears to make it mildly faster. YMMV.
693 2012-12-14 15:39:36 Hasimir has joined
694 2012-12-14 15:40:02 winemaker has quit (Quit: Page closed)
695 2012-12-14 15:40:28 <MC1984> should i get the ldb17 build
696 2012-12-14 15:40:40 <jgarzik> MC1984: if you need testnet coins, just let me know. I think gavinandresen's testnet faucet is broken.
697 2012-12-14 15:41:21 <MC1984> ok man if i get this up and running ill give you an address
698 2012-12-14 15:41:50 <gavinandresen> 0.7.2 announcement : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130819
699 2012-12-14 15:42:16 BTCOxygen has joined
700 2012-12-14 15:42:19 owowo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
701 2012-12-14 15:42:27 <MC1984> hmm this turbo build seems to be based off .7.1
702 2012-12-14 15:43:27 <Diapolo> sipa: why did you chose the naming-convetion w64-win32? To tell using 64 Bit MinGW but resulting builds are 32 Bit?
703 2012-12-14 15:43:40 davout_ has joined
704 2012-12-14 15:43:53 <sipa> Diapolo: there's nothing 64-bit about MinGW-w64
705 2012-12-14 15:44:18 <sipa> Diapolo: but i changed the name to reflect that it's built using MinGW-w64 and not MinGW32
706 2012-12-14 15:44:30 <sipa> (sorry, i didn't choose the confusing name)
707 2012-12-14 15:44:52 <sipa> MC1984: the git descriptor uses the latest tag name that the current version decends from, and that is 0.7.1
708 2012-12-14 15:45:07 <Diapolo> I didn't even know that the w64 has nothing to do with x64 ^^
709 2012-12-14 15:45:14 <sipa> neither did i
710 2012-12-14 15:45:18 <helo> is testing next-test better than HEAD?
711 2012-12-14 15:45:47 <helo> that is, the main bitcoin HEAD vs Luke-Jr's next-test
712 2012-12-14 15:45:52 <sipa> helo: it tests more proposed stuff, but if you find a bug in next-test, it's often harder to pinpoint the responsible
713 2012-12-14 15:46:10 <Diapolo> confusing ... another small hint, Boost 1.52 doesn't require Boost Chrono, so it should be save to remove that from the Qt project file
714 2012-12-14 15:46:50 davout has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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716 2012-12-14 15:48:41 <helo> 2960 Unconfirmed, size 1463.405 KB, tslb 81 minutes. so it will take at least three blocks to catch up with the 512KB limit?
717 2012-12-14 15:49:43 <helo> what's the difference between the 512KB "soft" block size limit, and the official 1MB limit?
718 2012-12-14 15:49:57 <sipa> the first is a policy, the second is a rule
719 2012-12-14 15:50:34 owowo has joined
720 2012-12-14 15:51:42 <MC1984> k so i now have a testnet3 folder and the bitcoin icon is the colour of baby sick
721 2012-12-14 15:51:59 <gavinandresen> helo: I don't like next-test; too many changes makes it hard to figure out what is broken.
722 2012-12-14 15:52:49 <MC1984> so this is the third testnet and its abot 200 days old eh
723 2012-12-14 15:52:55 <sipa> discussion with slush yesterday made me realize that we don't relay blocks before they are written to disk - which is completely unnecessary and adds delay
724 2012-12-14 15:53:04 <MC1984> i presume the first two got trashed in the name of science lol
725 2012-12-14 15:53:33 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'd be surprised if that really mattered though.
726 2012-12-14 15:54:11 <sipa> if anything, the writing of data to disk should not hold up the verification thread
727 2012-12-14 15:54:31 <jgarzik> write, start verification thread(s), commit ?
728 2012-12-14 15:54:55 <jgarzik> and commit can run in parallel with relay
729 2012-12-14 15:56:48 <sipa> well block writing to disk is part of the add-block-to-block-tree process; connecting that block (which spawns verification threads) happens afterwards
730 2012-12-14 15:57:23 <sipa> ideally, we have some global block cache, and a background thread that continuously writes modified blocks to disk, and syncs before updating the blktree database
731 2012-12-14 15:59:43 <Diapolo> After the new time-format log-file patch, my debug.log is using "2012-12-14T15:26:29" What is that T there doing?
732 2012-12-14 15:59:52 <helo> i realize this isn't blockchain.info support, but before solving this last block it said ~3040 unconfirmed transactions. then a block with 337 transctions is found, and the unconf transaction count goes to ~200
733 2012-12-14 16:00:08 <jgarzik> "2012-12-14T15:26:29" ???
734 2012-12-14 16:00:10 <jgarzik> that is so ugly
735 2012-12-14 16:00:13 <jgarzik> double NAK
736 2012-12-14 16:00:24 <kjj> that is ISO 8601
737 2012-12-14 16:00:35 <gmaxwell> thats not very easily shell script parsable.
738 2012-12-14 16:00:43 <jgarzik> irrelevant, it is ugly and more difficult for human eyes to parse
739 2012-12-14 16:00:43 <kjj> seriously?
740 2012-12-14 16:00:45 freakazoid has joined
741 2012-12-14 16:00:56 <gmaxwell> replace T with ' ' and it would be much easier to deal with.
742 2012-12-14 16:01:00 <jgarzik> +1
743 2012-12-14 16:01:03 slush1 has joined
744 2012-12-14 16:01:16 <Diapolo> +1
745 2012-12-14 16:01:17 <kjj> date=`echo "2012-12-14T15:26:29" | cut -d T -f 1`
746 2012-12-14 16:01:34 <jgarzik> if you really want the 'T', write a script to add it :)
747 2012-12-14 16:01:47 <jgarzik> split-by-space is a common task
748 2012-12-14 16:01:57 <Diapolo> I don't want it, it's the current output?
749 2012-12-14 16:02:03 <sipa> double NAK, that's ACK again?
750 2012-12-14 16:02:07 <sipa> ;)
751 2012-12-14 16:02:15 <gmaxwell> kjj: great, now match on the date in awk. .... I do log parsing with shell all the time, and I'm telling you its extra work.
752 2012-12-14 16:02:28 <Diapolo> I'm confused now ... totally.
753 2012-12-14 16:02:33 <Diapolo> (once more)
754 2012-12-14 16:02:38 <sipa> Diapolo: about what?
755 2012-12-14 16:02:49 <kjj> I prefer space over T, but the "official" spec is T
756 2012-12-14 16:03:00 <gmaxwell> current output looks like "12/14/12 15:49:43 "
757 2012-12-14 16:03:18 <Diapolo> that time format ... what I posted is current master and I dunno if that was an intended change or an accident
758 2012-12-14 16:03:20 <kjj> all that I really care about myself is that the units are in the correct order, and the year is full width
759 2012-12-14 16:03:27 <sipa> Diapolo: it's intended
760 2012-12-14 16:03:40 <sipa> (but apparently there is dispute over it now)
761 2012-12-14 16:03:46 <Diapolo> sipa: then I alsop want to say it's damn ugly now ^^
762 2012-12-14 16:03:51 <gavinandresen> if y'all want to fence-paint time formats, go ahead, but leave me out of it...
763 2012-12-14 16:04:03 <gavinandresen> wait... shed-paint....
764 2012-12-14 16:04:16 <gmaxwell> it's more like a fence, time is one dimensional.
765 2012-12-14 16:04:31 <gavinandresen> fence painting was Tom Sawyer. Actually, I wish I was more like Tom
766 2012-12-14 16:04:33 * gmaxwell shed paints your shedpainting comment
767 2012-12-14 16:04:54 * gavinandresen isn't very good at convincing other people to do his work for him
768 2012-12-14 16:04:59 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: meh. forget about that stuff.... this P2P networking reworking is sooo much fin.
769 2012-12-14 16:05:02 <gmaxwell> er fun.
770 2012-12-14 16:05:26 <jgarzik> kjj: ACK YYYY-MM-DD-like changes, NAK the 'T'
771 2012-12-14 16:05:33 <Diapolo> if all just do the fun things the small things get forgotten on track :-P
772 2012-12-14 16:05:39 <gmaxwell> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2817#comic
773 2012-12-14 16:05:53 <gavinandresen> speaking of doing work: 0.7.2 should be all announced and done, let me know if you see something I forgot to do
774 2012-12-14 16:06:07 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: did you double-check release-process text? :)
775 2012-12-14 16:06:10 <sipa> jgarzik: pullreq welcome
776 2012-12-14 16:06:37 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: yes, followed release-process.txt
777 2012-12-14 16:07:11 * jgarzik will create pullreqs once this kernel release window and 101.8F fever are done with ;p
778 2012-12-14 16:07:11 <Diapolo> sipa: I tried to add QMAKE_CXXFLAGS *= -flto=4 and QMAKE_LFLAGS *= -flto=4, but this leads to an lto-wrapper: CreateProcess: No such file or directory ... any idea?
779 2012-12-14 16:07:23 <kjj> the hilarious part is that the T was put there (the standard) intentionally to make it easier for machine parsing
780 2012-12-14 16:08:27 <gmaxwell> kjj: be glad they didn't also mandate EBCDIC. ... keep in mind that x.509 was also designed to make machine parsing 'easy'.
781 2012-12-14 16:09:17 <jgarzik> as was XML :)
782 2012-12-14 16:09:27 <jgarzik> remember the XML revolution?
783 2012-12-14 16:09:27 <sipa> as was ASN.1
784 2012-12-14 16:09:45 <sipa> wait... maybe x.509 is actually encoded in ASN.1?
785 2012-12-14 16:10:34 eroot has joined
786 2012-12-14 16:10:58 <gmaxwell> Yes.
787 2012-12-14 16:11:23 <TD> it is
788 2012-12-14 16:11:28 <TD> shudder
789 2012-12-14 16:12:14 BTCOxygen has joined
790 2012-12-14 16:13:25 <BTCOxygen> jgarzik: If pushpool is re-written to write to PostgreSQL will it be able to handle big loads ?
791 2012-12-14 16:13:49 <jgarzik> BTCOxygen: it already writes to PostgresQL
792 2012-12-14 16:14:13 <BTCOxygen> jgarzik: You said it was a problem of a single threaded DB
793 2012-12-14 16:14:23 <jgarzik> BTCOxygen: yes
794 2012-12-14 16:14:43 <BTCOxygen> jgarzik: PostgreSQL can work on muti-thread
795 2012-12-14 16:15:50 <jgarzik> BTCOxygen: Yes. It is a matter of updating pushpool to use multiple threads when talking to Postgres/Mysql/sqlite. Then it can handle bigger loads.
796 2012-12-14 16:16:02 <jgarzik> It already talks to Postgres/Mysql/sqlite right now.
797 2012-12-14 16:17:39 <BTCOxygen> jgarzik: Thanks for the info
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812 2012-12-14 16:31:20 <zeks2> what pool uses 50btc, can someone sell that pool software or something like that?
813 2012-12-14 16:32:37 daybyter has joined
814 2012-12-14 16:33:11 <gmaxwell> propritary software it is, not open to sharing they are. Asking in many channels are you?
815 2012-12-14 16:35:18 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: see all the discussion about hash collision complexity attacks on BTRFS?
816 2012-12-14 16:37:31 <zeks2> sorry, than best is to ask here for future
817 2012-12-14 16:37:48 <zeks2> and does anyone have some similar to their software to sell or share
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821 2012-12-14 16:41:27 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: yep. yawn. that problem has been re-re-re-discovered and reinvented several times in the kernel.
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824 2012-12-14 16:42:21 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: recently, we removed the kernel network routing cache, because you could attack it remotely via hash+cache entry stuffing.
825 2012-12-14 16:42:35 <jgarzik> easily degenerated to far worse behavior than no cache at all
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827 2012-12-14 16:43:47 <gmaxwell> zeks2: Many open source pool daemons there are. Available are not mining front ends. Running without a front end like eligius some pools have done.
828 2012-12-14 16:45:24 <gmaxwell> New centralized pools gaining wide adoption these days? Doubtful I am. Better off using P2Pool miners would be.
829 2012-12-14 16:45:48 <jgarzik> Yoda, you both are
830 2012-12-14 16:47:02 <denisx> gmaxwell: how many languages other than english can you speak?
831 2012-12-14 16:48:22 wizkid057 has joined
832 2012-12-14 16:48:39 <weex> Difficult to count, it must be.
833 2012-12-14 16:49:40 rdponticelli has joined
834 2012-12-14 16:49:42 <gmaxwell> denisx: I'm usually quite happy to tell other people that they can speak english far better than I can speak $applicable. But I can speak hundreds with the help of google translate! :P (though, the japanese results are ... uh. rather tortured). Don't concurrently ask people how to run your mining business in three channels if you don't want to be made a target though. :)
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837 2012-12-14 17:03:32 <gmaxwell> I can't get over how fortunate we are to have Hal's continued contributions.
838 2012-12-14 17:09:46 rdymac has joined
839 2012-12-14 17:12:00 <helo> s/denisx/zeks2/?
840 2012-12-14 17:12:30 <denisx> ?
841 2012-12-14 17:12:56 <weex> denisx: helo wants to replace you with zeks2
842 2012-12-14 17:13:02 <weex> and is asking if it's ok
843 2012-12-14 17:13:59 * gavinandresen is reading X.509 standards documents and is amused at the reference to "TeletexString" ....
844 2012-12-14 17:14:36 zeks2 has quit ()
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846 2012-12-14 17:15:36 eroot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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848 2012-12-14 17:22:30 <MC1984> moNFBd6ovCRK5e7WHryad4a9QTaYNorrpQ
849 2012-12-14 17:22:40 <MC1984> if anyne wants to send me a few testnet coins
850 2012-12-14 17:24:19 <gmaxwell> MC1984: 14304f061881fedd289cb55f4109e473869e17f27d58c4832d7b3c6942b8b323
851 2012-12-14 17:25:10 <MC1984> wooo 50 coins
852 2012-12-14 17:25:21 <MC1984> the only time i will ever see that happening lol
853 2012-12-14 17:26:39 <helo> it looked like gmaxwell's comment to denisx was intended for zeks2
854 2012-12-14 17:27:05 <denisx> helo: no, he meant me
855 2012-12-14 17:27:09 <MC1984> know what would be useful
856 2012-12-14 17:27:09 <helo> but now i'm thinking he was commenting to denisx regarding zeks2
857 2012-12-14 17:27:31 <slush1> MC1984: wooo:-)
858 2012-12-14 17:27:46 <MC1984> some sort of modified bitcoind that just reflected testcoins back at whatever address sent it, perhaps in random time slots and amounts
859 2012-12-14 17:27:58 <MC1984> lol thanks for the 1000
860 2012-12-14 17:27:59 eroot has joined
861 2012-12-14 17:28:13 <MC1984> all i can surmise from this is that testcoins are worthless lol
862 2012-12-14 17:28:16 <gmaxwell> MC1984: you can run two copies of testnet!
863 2012-12-14 17:28:31 <gmaxwell> "balance" : 618774.51859299,
864 2012-12-14 17:28:36 <slush1> MC1984: yes, I had 100k of them, still 70k remains
865 2012-12-14 17:28:42 <slush1> if you want some more, just ask :-D
866 2012-12-14 17:29:34 <MC1984> mfw some retard starts a testcoin exchange and lots of other retards jump on and suddenly im part of the 1%
867 2012-12-14 17:30:47 <gmaxwell> MC1984: that problem was solved before by resetting testnet when people started demanding real amounts for them.
868 2012-12-14 17:31:20 <MC1984> oh it did happen lol
869 2012-12-14 17:32:00 <helo> its ok guys, i'll be fine CPU mining my own testnet coins annnnny time now ;)
870 2012-12-14 17:32:28 <MC1984> this loglife says bitcoind connected to lfnet, i thought that was scrapped ages ago
871 2012-12-14 17:32:49 darkee has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
872 2012-12-14 17:33:02 <slush1> Many months ago I sold 10k testnet1 coins to nanotube for one bitcoin. One day later Gavin resetted testnet :-)
873 2012-12-14 17:33:08 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
874 2012-12-14 17:33:09 <slush1> I was sorry for him :-)
875 2012-12-14 17:33:45 <MC1984> yeh looks like i got my peers from irc :/
876 2012-12-14 17:34:01 slush1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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878 2012-12-14 17:34:21 <jgarzik> MC1984: that's normal for testnet3
879 2012-12-14 17:34:23 <gavinandresen> slush1: yes, we'll reset it again, too, if testnet coins start getting valuable enough to trade
880 2012-12-14 17:34:26 <winemaker> hi... is bitcoin-python for python 2xx or 3xx?
881 2012-12-14 17:35:11 slush1 has joined
882 2012-12-14 17:35:27 <jgarzik> winemaker: url? There are several projects that claim that name.
883 2012-12-14 17:35:38 <jgarzik> winemaker: most likely it is 2xx, though some support both
884 2012-12-14 17:35:49 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it's reactivated for testnet because testnet has no dnsseed. (also it keeps that code working, ... which is a good thing unless we decide to remove it entirely)
885 2012-12-14 17:35:56 <winemaker> https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin-python
886 2012-12-14 17:36:01 <MC1984> ok
887 2012-12-14 17:36:36 rdponticelli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
888 2012-12-14 17:36:50 <MC1984> so a full testnet sync took from 15:38 to 16:42
889 2012-12-14 17:36:55 <MC1984> on this machine
890 2012-12-14 17:37:19 <gmaxwell> 0_o
891 2012-12-14 17:37:22 <jgarzik> winemaker: probably 2xx
892 2012-12-14 17:37:38 <MC1984> thats quite bas isnt it
893 2012-12-14 17:37:41 <MC1984> bad
894 2012-12-14 17:37:56 <jgarzik> winemaker: this should support both 2xx and 3xx: https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinrpc
895 2012-12-14 17:38:09 <jgarzik> MC1984: there are some test cases in the testnet3 chain that take forever to validate
896 2012-12-14 17:38:16 <MC1984> almost certain due to this slow USB stick
897 2012-12-14 17:38:56 <gmaxwell> There are some intentionally slow cases, e.g. blocks with thousands of txn but that sounds longer than I expected.
898 2012-12-14 17:39:02 Hasimir is now known as Mephistopheles
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900 2012-12-14 17:39:43 <MC1984> is it useful to test with very slow i/o?
901 2012-12-14 17:39:46 nus- has joined
902 2012-12-14 17:39:55 Mephistopheles is now known as Hasimir
903 2012-12-14 17:40:30 <MC1984> send version message: version 60002 this seems strange also
904 2012-12-14 17:41:07 <gmaxwell> MC1984: sure. almost all tests are useful.
905 2012-12-14 17:41:07 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
906 2012-12-14 17:41:39 <MC1984> ill play with the dbcache and see what happens
907 2012-12-14 17:41:56 tsche has quit ()
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909 2012-12-14 17:43:01 <MC1984> is there any way to see how fast -gen is going
910 2012-12-14 17:43:23 bitcoinbulletin has joined
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912 2012-12-14 17:44:26 <gmaxwell> MC1984: gethashespersec should give you a measurement.
913 2012-12-14 17:44:26 TD has joined
914 2012-12-14 17:44:45 <gmaxwell> The answer is "not very fast" ... the integrated cpu miner isn't as fast as external ones.
915 2012-12-14 17:45:00 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
916 2012-12-14 17:45:14 <MC1984> 282144
917 2012-12-14 17:45:27 rdponticelli has joined
918 2012-12-14 17:45:55 <MC1984> something tells me ill be waiting a while even on testnet
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940 2012-12-14 18:21:10 <midnightmagic> theo de raadt is getting a little fatalistic lately. :(
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946 2012-12-14 18:43:44 <MC1984> is ti me or are these confirmations a bit slow
947 2012-12-14 18:46:28 <sipa> on testnet? they're slow unless someone is mining
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949 2012-12-14 18:51:23 Pasha is now known as Cory
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955 2012-12-14 18:56:41 <MC1984> hoe many nodes are there on testnet
956 2012-12-14 18:56:57 <MC1984> i notice its struggling to maintain 8 connections
957 2012-12-14 18:57:01 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
958 2012-12-14 18:57:12 <MC1984> well sometimes
959 2012-12-14 18:57:21 <MC1984> i cant move these coins until 6 confs right
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987 2012-12-14 19:43:17 <helo> i'm mining with 2mhash/s
988 2012-12-14 19:43:17 winterblack_ is now known as nethershaw
989 2012-12-14 19:43:55 <helo> Aaaaaaaand here come mad blocks, brace yourselves!
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1044 2012-12-14 21:26:00 <helo> is it wise to reduce the dustspam fee at this point, given that mining income has just recently ~halved?
1045 2012-12-14 21:27:05 <helo> re: [Bitcoin-development] RFC: Updating dust output definition, and default fees
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1077 2012-12-14 22:47:34 <MC1984> im sure bitcoin is shutting itself down
1078 2012-12-14 22:48:01 <MC1984> logfile says its a clean exit but im not doing it
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1082 2012-12-14 22:58:19 <sipa> MC1984: out of disk space maybe?
1083 2012-12-14 22:59:31 <MC1984> no its me being a dumbass
1084 2012-12-14 22:59:40 <MC1984> pressing X
1085 2012-12-14 23:04:22 <etotheipi_> sipa: I need to know how to rederive my own addresses later in my own deterministic wallet
1086 2012-12-14 23:05:16 <gmaxwell> helo: that change increases fees, but just decreases the smallest outputs it will let you make. So it's not just a decrease.
1087 2012-12-14 23:05:32 <etotheipi_> if I just setup my wallet to use PubKey[i] = Hash(Chaincode[i])*PubKey[0], then I have a plain deterministic wallet that happens to also give me the ability to prove relationship to the root key
1088 2012-12-14 23:06:24 <etotheipi_> If I'm not mistaken, this [i]almost[/i] fits into the BIP 32 spec
1089 2012-12-14 23:06:42 <etotheipi_> but I have to check it out again, it's been a long time since I looked at it
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1095 2012-12-14 23:23:28 <sipa> etotheipi_: well sure if you want to generate the keys in a BIP32 setting, it makes sense to use hash(chaincode) as factor, but there is no need for that in the spec right
1096 2012-12-14 23:23:40 <sipa> etotheipi_: you'd just given out hash(chaincode) to the payer
1097 2012-12-14 23:23:53 <sipa> and as far as he is concerned, it's just an arbitrary 256-bit number
1098 2012-12-14 23:24:16 <etotheipi_> sipa: understood.... the point is to make the actual key to be derived from the chaincode, not the chaincode itself
1099 2012-12-14 23:24:39 <etotheipi_> I'm just pointing out why the distinction is important
1100 2012-12-14 23:25:06 <etotheipi_> if the Invoice ID was the chaincode itself, then giving them an address gives them the whole chain
1101 2012-12-14 23:25:13 <sipa> right
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1103 2012-12-14 23:27:16 <etotheipi_> sipa: okay I see what you're saying...
1104 2012-12-14 23:27:45 <etotheipi_> it doesn't even have to be spec'd ... each chaincode can just produce two addresses... whatever the deterministic wallet would produce anyway, and the one using hash(chaincode)
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1106 2012-12-14 23:28:31 <Luke-Jr> topic needs update fyi
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