1 2012-12-15 00:02:24 nus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2 2012-12-15 00:05:41 <etotheipi_> sipa: more and more I like your idea of using leveldb as an alternative to ... RAM. Is there a reason I can't/shouldn't use levelDB like a RAM disk, using the "key()" as a memory address, and "value()" as the data stored at that address? I want to code up some persistent data structures, and wondering if that will really work well
3 2012-12-15 00:08:29 <sipa> etotheipi_: really depends how the access pattern is i guess
4 2012-12-15 00:12:43 <etotheipi_> did you end up using it for your UTXO store?
5 2012-12-15 00:13:38 <sipa> yes, but with an own cache layer in between
6 2012-12-15 00:15:04 <etotheipi_> sipa: it looks like leveldb has a built-in cache layer... do you know if it's configurable enough to not require a custom cache layer?
7 2012-12-15 00:15:19 <etotheipi_> or is that "cache" it's referring to simply the OS-cache?
8 2012-12-15 00:15:59 <sipa> no, LevelDB has its own cache
9 2012-12-15 00:16:28 <sipa> and the reason i have a layer on top is because of serialization/deserialization overhead
10 2012-12-15 00:17:18 <sipa> so i can just have CCoins (UTXOs of a given tx) datastructures in memory than can be referenced, modified, ...
11 2012-12-15 00:18:26 <etotheipi_> ahh, so you're caching the higher-level structures, and only serializing the ones remaining after large batches of insertions and deletions
12 2012-12-15 00:18:34 <sipa> indeed
13 2012-12-15 00:19:48 <sipa> the layer is also for abstraction - there's just an interface that represents the UTXO set, with several implementations (LevelDB, mempool, cache, ...)
14 2012-12-15 00:20:26 <sipa> so you can put a cache on top of a cache if you need a temporary environment
15 2012-12-15 00:20:35 <sipa> and not push its changes to the backend
16 2012-12-15 00:27:57 <etotheipi_> I wonder how beneficial that actually is...
17 2012-12-15 00:28:16 <sipa> how do you mena?
18 2012-12-15 00:28:22 <etotheipi_> I mean, in terms of efficiency
19 2012-12-15 00:28:34 <etotheipi_> so far I have been *really* impressed with vanilla LevelDB
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21 2012-12-15 00:28:48 <sipa> oh, that abstraction layer is not for efficiency
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23 2012-12-15 00:37:31 <BlueMatt> updated https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0037 for sipa's partial merkle tree encoding - the section on how the tree is encoded was lazily copied from sipa's well-written comment, if anyone wants more, I can add more details
24 2012-12-15 00:37:38 <BlueMatt> also rebased the bloom filter branch
25 2012-12-15 01:01:48 <denisx> btw, has anything changed in regard to the merketree in 0.7.2? my updatemerkletree method does not work anymore which only rehash the left side of the tree for faster getworks
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27 2012-12-15 01:02:10 <sipa> denisx: nothing changed
28 2012-12-15 01:03:20 <denisx> sipa: does anything change parts of the tree without rebuilding it?
29 2012-12-15 01:04:06 <sipa> well anything that modifies transactions
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32 2012-12-15 01:17:11 <Diablo-D3> MAKE THIS HAPPEN, ASSHOLES: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/define-westboro-baptist-church-hate-group-due-promoting-animosity-against-differing-cultural/xHF0d3nq?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl
33 2012-12-15 01:19:10 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: please exclude #bitcoin-dev from future multichannel spamming.
34 2012-12-15 01:19:38 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: /amsg doesnt work that way
35 2012-12-15 01:19:46 <Diablo-D3> xchat IS open source, however
36 2012-12-15 01:19:55 <Diablo-D3> so I expect to see your patch merged by next release cycle
37 2012-12-15 01:20:00 <Diablo-D3> thanks for volunteering
38 2012-12-15 01:20:28 <pjorrit_> lol
39 2012-12-15 01:20:37 <zeks2> :)
40 2012-12-15 01:20:42 <sipa> haha
41 2012-12-15 01:20:51 <wumpus> hehe
42 2012-12-15 01:20:59 <wumpus> that was fast!
43 2012-12-15 01:21:43 <gmaxwell> :P
44 2012-12-15 01:22:52 <zeks2> diablo is crazy thoose days :)
45 2012-12-15 01:23:31 <zeks2> gmaxwell since you are bitcoind developer, could you suggest some pool since i dont want only solo mining because way of getting block is almost impossible :)
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47 2012-12-15 01:25:29 <gmaxwell> zeks2: the only pool I recommend is p2pool, you'd mentioned some performance problems with it and hundreds of miners, though.
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49 2012-12-15 01:25:58 <gmaxwell> (though it's possible to run multple copies of p2pool, I run two myself, though for redundance not scaling)
50 2012-12-15 01:26:58 <zeks2> yes, thats right, but what in case of some increasing of miners in near future, i would face same problem and should open new and new all time :) for me p2pool is great but only this is problem(and you have good memory you remmeber what i asked)
51 2012-12-15 01:28:33 <gmaxwell> zeks2: I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're doing. Are you trying to operate a public pool?
52 2012-12-15 01:29:05 <zeks2> maybe yes , not still sure, but would like to be ready for it
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54 2012-12-15 01:31:23 <gmaxwell> well you could potentially use the slave mode of eloipool (luke's pool software) to both run your own public pool but also participate in a larger one. I'm not sure if that feature is currently working.
55 2012-12-15 01:33:47 <zeks2> ok, il try out something, also tell me this, under eloipool since it dont have web interface or anything, can you suggest some i think it is called "front end server side"
56 2012-12-15 01:33:56 <zeks2> so i can watch stats, since eloipool even dont show current hashrate
57 2012-12-15 01:38:17 <gmaxwell> Some of the software used for that on eligius may be open sourceâ but I'm not clear on the details. The pool software can log into the database of your choosing, so finding out stats is just a matter of querying the database.
58 2012-12-15 01:40:31 <zeks2> oki doki
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377 2012-12-15 05:03:18 <D337z> Hey guys, I have a proposed change/addition to the JSON protocol for block updates to significantly decrease bandwidth and optimize propagation...
378 2012-12-15 05:03:35 <D337z> Who wants to hear it?
379 2012-12-15 05:04:41 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
380 2012-12-15 05:06:19 <gmaxwell> D337z: uh. does it start with a misunderstanding that JSON is used to relay blocks in the network?
381 2012-12-15 05:07:47 <D337z> Well, you tell me. I'm proposing that the messages be compressed with Gzip then HPack prior to transport so that more than one message can be sent on updating large numbers of blocks at a time.
382 2012-12-15 05:08:15 <D337z> I'm testing the compression right now actually.
383 2012-12-15 05:08:57 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
384 2012-12-15 05:09:03 <D337z> And I'm seeing a roughly 25% decrease in data size by Gzip alone. I imagine that using HPack should drop it even more.
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386 2012-12-15 05:10:04 <D337z> And, while CJson could be used, HPack shows more promise and less overhead.
387 2012-12-15 05:10:27 <gmaxwell> D337z: ... blocks are not sent between nodes as json. They're sent the raw binary serialzed format.
388 2012-12-15 05:10:48 <D337z> Which can be compressed
389 2012-12-15 05:11:01 <D337z> to about 75% of their original size
390 2012-12-15 05:11:34 <D337z> And then the blocks are updated using JSON, correct?
391 2012-12-15 05:11:37 <gmaxwell> No, they can't. ASCII json, I'd believe that. but not the actual raw blocks.
392 2012-12-15 05:11:44 <gmaxwell> No, again, they are not.
393 2012-12-15 05:12:48 <D337z> Well, in any case I'm compressing it and it works
394 2012-12-15 05:12:56 <gmaxwell> You are compressing the json.
395 2012-12-15 05:13:10 <D337z> No, I'm compressing the block data
396 2012-12-15 05:13:23 <D337z> To about 75% of it's original size
397 2012-12-15 05:13:38 <gmaxwell> D337z: A block at a time?
398 2012-12-15 05:13:46 <gmaxwell> D337z: and block data from what source?
399 2012-12-15 05:14:14 <D337z> From the already downloaded blocks.
400 2012-12-15 05:14:23 <gmaxwell> D337z: where are you reading the data from?
401 2012-12-15 05:14:36 <D337z> Which means that they are at least 75% predictable
402 2012-12-15 05:15:35 <gmaxwell> ^ (see prior question)
403 2012-12-15 05:16:01 <D337z> Which data?
404 2012-12-15 05:16:13 <D337z> The blocks or some of the resources I've used?
405 2012-12-15 05:16:18 <gmaxwell> D337z: where are you getting the block data you're compressing. Be specific.
406 2012-12-15 05:17:04 <D337z> It's the block data that's already been downloaded from peers.
407 2012-12-15 05:17:19 <gmaxwell> Great. And how are you getting it to feed it to your compressor?
408 2012-12-15 05:17:52 <D337z> Directly compressing it.
409 2012-12-15 05:18:14 sgstair has quit (Quit: .«UPP»Â.)
410 2012-12-15 05:18:14 <gmaxwell> D337z: Say I wanted to reproduce your results. I have a synchronized node. What would I do first?
411 2012-12-15 05:18:15 <D337z> And on-the-fly
412 2012-12-15 05:20:08 <D337z> Well, there's a couple ways you can do it. Either over VPN with packet encryption enabled, or take the block data saved in the binary and compress it directly. Though the results will be slightly different, they should be within 5% of each other.
413 2012-12-15 05:20:20 <gmaxwell> What are _you_ doing that you got 75% with?
414 2012-12-15 05:20:40 <D337z> Compressing the binary of already downloaded blocks
415 2012-12-15 05:20:55 <gmaxwell> Which binary?
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417 2012-12-15 05:21:27 <D337z> In the bitcoin folder of appdata/Roaming
418 2012-12-15 05:21:41 <D337z> The 2+ GB one
419 2012-12-15 05:21:42 <gmaxwell> (compressing a file of many blocks is not, sadly, the same as compressing a single block at a time, alas)
420 2012-12-15 05:22:02 <D337z> I know. But it started out at 69% and has only changed mildly since
421 2012-12-15 05:22:19 <gmaxwell> D337z: there are at least two 2GB ones. But okay, one of the blk0001.dat files.
422 2012-12-15 05:22:40 <gmaxwell> What were you saying about CJson and HPack then?
423 2012-12-15 05:24:38 <D337z> The JSON messages could be further compressed using them. But I may have misunderstood that that payload of blocks were sent as JSON messages due to the use of the Stratum protocol. Which means they could be further compressed.
424 2012-12-15 05:24:53 <D337z> Though, I'm more on the networking side of things.
425 2012-12-15 05:24:58 <gmaxwell> In any case, the seralized blockchain compreses, with no seperation of blocks, by 25% with gzipâ e.g. to 75% of its original size. Which is considerably less than you're reporting.
426 2012-12-15 05:25:27 <gmaxwell> Stratum is not part of bitcoin at all. It's a third party protocol used by some mining pools to send block headers.
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429 2012-12-15 05:25:56 <D337z> Ah, then Ufasoft misunderstood what I was trying to tell them. : /
430 2012-12-15 05:27:01 <D337z> They thought I was talking about the mining protocol. But I was talking about updating the already existing blocks and using compression to decrease the required amount of data that needed to be sent and received.
431 2012-12-15 05:28:13 <gmaxwell> most of the data in an actual block is signatures which are pure entropy. The second biggest chunk are public keys and the third are hashes of public keys. None of these are natively compressable, but the keys and key hashes do get repeated, so they can provide some compression, though its greatly limited if you must work a block at a time.
432 2012-12-15 05:28:46 <Luke-Jr> D337z: GBT supports gzip compression
433 2012-12-15 05:28:52 <gmaxwell> The overall average bitcoin data rate is only about 14kbit/sec maximum... most of the slowness in relaying comes from the computational and disk IO costs of valdating blocks.
434 2012-12-15 05:29:31 <gmaxwell> But I'm still very curious how you're getting 75% compression on block files... that sounds far in excess of what I thought possible with a general purpose compressor.
435 2012-12-15 05:30:02 <gmaxwell> (I thought xz on the whole files got closer to 50% but 75% is an enormous increase beyond that!)
436 2012-12-15 05:30:46 <D337z> Partially, I suppose, because a lot of the block can be translated to repeated 0's for about half of it.
437 2012-12-15 05:31:03 <gmaxwell> ...
438 2012-12-15 05:31:11 <D337z> Hold on, 75% of it's original size
439 2012-12-15 05:31:20 <D337z> So a decrease of 25%
440 2012-12-15 05:31:34 <D337z> So 50% would be better
441 2012-12-15 05:31:42 <gmaxwell> oh well thats boring and well known. And doesn't support "75% predictable"!
442 2012-12-15 05:32:30 <D337z> Sorry, I got my sides of 100% confused. >_< I meant 25% predictable. I have a cold.
443 2012-12-15 05:32:42 <D337z> Math is being clogged
444 2012-12-15 05:32:54 <gmaxwell> there isn't "0's for about half of it" ... the only repeated zeros are in the prev block part of the header. but there are only six of them there.
445 2012-12-15 05:35:49 <D337z> And that's at the end, right?
446 2012-12-15 05:36:06 <D337z> What's the numeric data that follows it?
447 2012-12-15 05:36:39 <D337z> I think it's the 256-bit hash
448 2012-12-15 05:40:02 <D337z> Eh, oh well...I'm just thinking that the required data to be sent and received could be decreased. I have a 10Mb connection and it's still hell trying to download even a day's worth of blocks if I've been offline.
449 2012-12-15 05:40:22 <D337z> Some countries don't have that great of a connection
450 2012-12-15 05:41:28 <D337z> So, JSON data can be compressed if need be wherever it's used and the block data can be compressed to around 75% of it's original size (as tested on serialized blocks which should give an indication of overall efficiency).
451 2012-12-15 05:42:01 <D337z> I managed to compress the first set of blocks to 76% of its original size.
452 2012-12-15 05:42:21 <D337z> From 1.95 to 1.48
453 2012-12-15 05:42:27 <D337z> GB
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455 2012-12-15 05:44:10 <ciphermonk> I think we're CPU-bound for transaction verification rather than network-IO bound for downloading blocks
456 2012-12-15 05:44:51 <ciphermonk> You could go waaaay faster by disabling transaction verification all together but I don't think it's advisable
457 2012-12-15 05:44:53 <D337z> And, since the blocks don't seem to be sent using the JSON messages, whatever protocol is used will still be able to transport the data 25% faster excluding its own header.
458 2012-12-15 05:46:42 <D337z> Well, it's still downloading a DVD's worth of data.
459 2012-12-15 05:49:10 <D337z> So, what transport protocol IS used to send blocks from peer-to-peer?
460 2012-12-15 05:49:24 <D337z> If not JSON
461 2012-12-15 05:51:08 nus has joined
462 2012-12-15 05:51:11 <D337z> Just regular TCP?
463 2012-12-15 05:55:46 <paybitcoin1> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
464 2012-12-15 05:57:43 <D337z> Seems that it used to use a protocol similar to torrent but changed to its own p2p protocol
465 2012-12-15 06:03:59 <D337z> Well, in any case, for 8 peers to be sending blocks and for blocks to be received rather slowly, it seems something could be done to make it more universally friendly. *shrugs* I'm just trying to make a suggestion in the right direction.
466 2012-12-15 06:04:20 <D337z> And GBT seems to only compress for miners.
467 2012-12-15 06:05:01 <D337z> I might have read that wrong though. Eh, I'll take another swing at it when I'm over this darn cold. T_T
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488 2012-12-15 07:14:33 <Luke-Jr> â¦
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586 2012-12-15 11:21:21 <MC1984> seems like this client survives suspend to ram
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591 2012-12-15 11:29:32 <MC1984> whats the likelihood of gitting a bad peer on testnet rendering benchmarking useless
592 2012-12-15 11:29:45 <MC1984> is theres something like bootstrap.dat for testnet?
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594 2012-12-15 11:32:30 <winemaker> could someone "farm" lots of transaction fee's when he makes a special client that trys to hold a connection to a very big nu
595 2012-12-15 11:32:34 <winemaker> mber of other nodes
596 2012-12-15 11:32:54 <oinooob> Copiing from #bitcoin: I've been thinking about the (horrible) time to get a local chain up-to-date, especially when the machine hasn't got the 3-4GB RAM required to cache current chain, and the data is on spindle disk. Has anyone considered applying ARC (Adaptive Replacement Cache)?
597 2012-12-15 11:33:12 <oinooob> I also have some doubts about current index. Granted, I haven't checked the code, but the idx file is larger than RAM on a box currently. Has it been considered to split it into 2 level of index? f.ex. "top-level" only indexing first 32 bits, or something like that?
598 2012-12-15 11:34:53 <oinooob> (when I didn't know about -datadir, I tried to softlink (junction) on Windows the dir, and the client reliably anbd always crashed).
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600 2012-12-15 11:37:46 <oinooob> winemaker: Isn't all block verifications sent out to everyone, and first correct responder wins, or were you talking about a potential protocol modification?
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605 2012-12-15 11:43:08 <winemaker> oinoob: i'm not very familiar with the protocol --i`m trying to understand the code and protocols for a few days now-- but if you hold a connection to the computers who are in this transaction your chance to veryfi is higher than if you are not connected.??
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608 2012-12-15 11:50:06 <oinooob> Again, I don't know how the protocol works, but if it only uses a limited amount of peer connections, and you by chance happened to control all of them peers; yes, obviously, as no one else could verify. But then you'd also have to have the computing power to solve the blocks (very fast). As the target is around 10 minutes, I'd say chances are low you manage to hold all connections during this time, and even if you did you'd st
609 2012-12-15 11:52:16 <oinooob> Perhaps I misunderstand how transaction fee's are "claimed" vs. how blocks are?
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661 2012-12-15 14:23:04 <Eremes> guys can u put ascii code or maybe chinese/korean character when password-ing your wallet ?
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663 2012-12-15 14:23:50 <sipa> have you tried?
664 2012-12-15 14:24:08 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
665 2012-12-15 14:25:45 <Eremes> just did
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678 2012-12-15 14:47:59 <Joric> what the hell's going on with the bot http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2012/12/15
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680 2012-12-15 14:48:12 <Joric> each message is quadrupled
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685 2012-12-15 14:52:10 <sipa> ;;later tell BlueMatt the BIP doesn't describe the tweak, and have you considered using nHashNum*0xFBA4C795 + nTweak as murmurhash init?
686 2012-12-15 14:52:10 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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727 2012-12-15 16:38:10 <jeremias> isd encryption possible with ecdsa?
728 2012-12-15 16:38:15 <jeremias> isd = is
729 2012-12-15 16:38:37 <jeremias> I mean, would it be possible to have encrypt/decrypt commands like now there is sign/verify
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736 2012-12-15 16:47:30 <sipa> jeremias: ECDSA is only a signature algorithm, but the EC keys used can be used for encryption
737 2012-12-15 16:47:49 <sipa> for example ECIES combines EC with AES
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754 2012-12-15 17:32:16 <jgarzik> An interesting thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130764.0 [SUCCESS] Double Spend against a satoshidice loss
755 2012-12-15 17:32:38 <jgarzik> <fireduck> While I investigate I've set Satoshidice to only allow confirmed bets. I'll bring up our test site and post the url in a little in case anyone wants to use a casino to continue to test this. It has real funds, just not nearly as much.
756 2012-12-15 17:34:30 RBecker_ is now known as RBecker2
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758 2012-12-15 17:37:24 <sipa> testnet height is 39938?
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762 2012-12-15 17:39:42 <gmaxwell> "blocks" : 39938,
763 2012-12-15 17:39:44 <gmaxwell> yep
764 2012-12-15 17:41:09 <Joric> that's silly i thought satoshidice includes funds from the bet into the final transaction to make sure it won't be double spent isn't it helping
765 2012-12-15 17:42:15 <gmaxwell> Joric: they include fees so the transactions get relayed at all.
766 2012-12-15 17:42:35 <gmaxwell> (otherwise they'd all fail the priority test)
767 2012-12-15 17:43:10 <gmaxwell> including fees does nothing wrt doublespendng immunity, at least not with any widely deployed software.. resistant to reversion depends on at least being in nodes mempools.
768 2012-12-15 17:43:27 <gmaxwell> And some miners filter out sdice transactions.
769 2012-12-15 17:43:33 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
770 2012-12-15 17:45:53 <Joric> just realized how it was done that's hilarious
771 2012-12-15 17:46:08 <Joric> better than mining
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777 2012-12-15 17:57:25 <D34TH> quickly post testnet addrs and get free tBTC
778 2012-12-15 18:00:54 <D34TH> whats the current testnet diff
779 2012-12-15 18:01:29 <gmaxwell> mtFgPN5NLPGnrqMkj3XxS3SSam8NByVaTK
780 2012-12-15 18:03:14 Jamesz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
781 2012-12-15 18:04:31 sta1 has joined
782 2012-12-15 18:05:52 <D34TH> gmaxwell, sent
783 2012-12-15 18:07:04 BurtyBB has joined
784 2012-12-15 18:07:39 sta has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
785 2012-12-15 18:08:13 <gmaxwell> whooo.
786 2012-12-15 18:08:22 <Joric> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FPebAr7ST-E#t=1565s <- "it has a deflationist nature because money tend to dissapear from bitcoin so it cannot work in the long run" :)
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794 2012-12-15 18:21:05 <paybitcoin1> I tried to test out the double spend @ sdice attack, but couldn't get it to work.
795 2012-12-15 18:21:58 <paybitcoin1> It is also very slow, each test required 30-45 minutes to wait on blocks, but I guess it would be ok to script it or whatever.
796 2012-12-15 18:24:28 <paybitcoin1> So I gave up after 3 tries. Unfortunately (for the attack) I ended up winning a lot and came out 5 BTC ahead.
797 2012-12-15 18:25:02 <paybitcoin1> But with the 0 fee transactions it took 4-5 hours to be included in a block...
798 2012-12-15 18:26:57 TD has joined
799 2012-12-15 18:27:50 <MC1984> D34TH still handing out testcoins?
800 2012-12-15 18:27:59 <D34TH> yerp
801 2012-12-15 18:28:22 <MC1984> moNFBd6ovCRK5e7WHryad4a9QTaYNorrpQ
802 2012-12-15 18:28:36 <MC1984> theyre not real coins so i suppose its not REALLY begging lol
803 2012-12-15 18:28:55 <MC1984> thanks
804 2012-12-15 18:29:00 <D34TH> i feel if i give them out and somebody actually uses them to develop
805 2012-12-15 18:29:04 <D34TH> i've done good
806 2012-12-15 18:29:21 <MC1984> does the testnet have a capped coin supply
807 2012-12-15 18:29:30 <MC1984> or is it 50 per block forever?
808 2012-12-15 18:29:58 <sipa> same rules as relanet
809 2012-12-15 18:30:00 <sipa> realnet
810 2012-12-15 18:30:31 tonikt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
811 2012-12-15 18:30:43 <MC1984> oh wow these coins are not completely disposable then
812 2012-12-15 18:31:29 <D34TH> MC1984, http://gyazo.com/2b488b3c1e4e7cb261f72c4532bd81db
813 2012-12-15 18:31:35 <D34TH> :D
814 2012-12-15 18:32:30 <MC1984> youve mined all yours
815 2012-12-15 18:32:36 <D34TH> yep
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818 2012-12-15 18:40:25 <MC1984> that sync took longer than the last time after i set dbcache=512
819 2012-12-15 18:41:00 <sipa> what did you sync from?
820 2012-12-15 18:44:34 Joric has quit ()
821 2012-12-15 18:45:35 <MC1984> the internet
822 2012-12-15 18:45:58 <sipa> please don't do that, it makes your benchmark completely meaningless
823 2012-12-15 18:45:59 <MC1984> be better if i had a good addnode
824 2012-12-15 18:46:19 <sipa> use mine: 178.18.90.41
825 2012-12-15 18:46:38 <MC1984> oki
826 2012-12-15 18:46:52 <MC1984> ill be doing it periodically if thats cool
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831 2012-12-15 18:48:34 <sipa> sure
832 2012-12-15 18:49:13 <MC1984> the command is -addnode= right?
833 2012-12-15 18:49:17 <sipa> use -connect=
834 2012-12-15 18:49:22 <sipa> that means you only connect to that node
835 2012-12-15 18:49:30 <MC1984> right
836 2012-12-15 18:50:27 agath has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
837 2012-12-15 18:52:04 <MC1984> 12/15/12 18:37:52 trying connection 178.18.90.41 lastseen=0.0hrs
838 2012-12-15 18:52:04 <MC1984> 12/15/12 18:37:57 connection timeout
839 2012-12-15 18:52:59 <sipa> strange
840 2012-12-15 18:53:49 <sipa> works fine here
841 2012-12-15 18:54:15 <MC1984> reset my router brb
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850 2012-12-15 18:59:33 <MC-Eeepc> still timeout
851 2012-12-15 19:02:35 <MC-Eeepc> default port?
852 2012-12-15 19:04:30 rdymac has joined
853 2012-12-15 19:06:43 <MC-Eeepc> looks like this client is trying to connect to your port 18333
854 2012-12-15 19:07:55 Hasimir has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
855 2012-12-15 19:08:00 <sipa> that means you're on testnet
856 2012-12-15 19:09:03 <MC-Eeepc> yes is your node a testnet node?
857 2012-12-15 19:09:20 <sipa> no
858 2012-12-15 19:09:24 <MC-Eeepc> im using testnet because mainnet takes days to sync
859 2012-12-15 19:09:50 <MC-Eeepc> we found the problem then lol
860 2012-12-15 19:10:02 <sipa> testnet isn't a very meanigful benchmark, as it only takes a few seconds to sync in optimal cases
861 2012-12-15 19:10:16 <MC-Eeepc> took me 2 hours last time
862 2012-12-15 19:10:43 <sipa> most of that is probably finding a node in the first place
863 2012-12-15 19:11:04 <MC-Eeepc> no it got nodes quickly
864 2012-12-15 19:11:19 <MC-Eeepc> it was doing about 20 blocks a second
865 2012-12-15 19:13:59 <sipa> once you have downloaded the blocks, you can use -reindex to check how long it takes to just index/verify
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869 2012-12-15 19:17:09 <MC-Eeepc> ok then
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887 2012-12-15 20:11:24 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: I'll happily accept a pull request fixing the gitian issue
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942 2012-12-15 22:48:39 <kvelertak> lets say I have 10 addresses, each with 1 btc with 0 confirmations, and I craft a raw transaction to send all of that to a single address
943 2012-12-15 22:49:03 <kvelertak> if there is a double spend, will the entire transaction be invalidated or will the receiver address end up with 9 btc?
944 2012-12-15 22:49:31 <Luke-Jr> entire invalidated
945 2012-12-15 22:49:41 <gmaxwell> it's perhaps helpful to understand that bitcoin makes "double spends" impossible.
946 2012-12-15 22:49:55 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ⦠<.<
947 2012-12-15 22:50:26 <kvelertak> I understand that they are very possible with 0 confirmations
948 2012-12-15 22:51:11 <gmaxwell> ...in that only one spend of a given input can make it into the blockchain, the chain serves the purpose of deciding which of potentially multiple mutually exclusive transactions is the real one.
949 2012-12-15 22:51:23 <kvelertak> Luke-Jr what I meant is that if one of those 10 addresses got its funds from a double spend attack
950 2012-12-15 22:51:56 <gmaxwell> kvelertak: the chain also has no concept of balances, and almost no concept of addresses.
951 2012-12-15 22:52:06 <kvelertak> I know
952 2012-12-15 22:52:16 <kvelertak> im trying to do a balance system with 0 confirmations
953 2012-12-15 22:52:19 <kvelertak> quite a mindfuck
954 2012-12-15 22:52:25 <gmaxwell> You don't seem to because you're asking poorly formed questions with respect to that understanding.
955 2012-12-15 22:52:45 <kvelertak> Im not quite sure you understood my question
956 2012-12-15 22:53:06 <gmaxwell> Your question isn't meaningful in bitcoin without additional information.
957 2012-12-15 22:53:52 <kvelertak> i'll rewrite it just a sec
958 2012-12-15 22:53:59 <gmaxwell> a new transaction consumes prior valid transactions and produces new outputs. The transaction isn't valid unless all of its inputs are valid.
959 2012-12-15 22:54:23 agath has joined
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961 2012-12-15 22:54:52 <gmaxwell> So what some address recieves is relevent or irrelevant purely based on which inputs you used when writing the transaction. If you used valid inputs your transaction is valid, if you used any invalid inputs its not.
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967 2012-12-15 22:57:28 <Luke-Jr> kvelertak: when you rewrite it, don't mention addresses or balances at all. they don't exist at the level you're talking about.
968 2012-12-15 22:58:47 <gmaxwell> thats a good way of putting what I was trying to say there.
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970 2012-12-15 22:59:22 <kvelertak> I have 10 address/privkey pairs, each of them has just (a few seconds ago) been sent 1 btc. One of those receives was exploited, however I will not know that after the fact. I need to send 10 btc from these addresses right away to a single recipient so I create and sign a raw transaction to do just that.
971 2012-12-15 22:59:58 <kvelertak> Will the recipient get 9 or 0 btc?
972 2012-12-15 23:00:34 <gmaxwell> Can't answer.
973 2012-12-15 23:00:48 <gmaxwell> It won't recieve 9 however. It might recieve 10 or 0.
974 2012-12-15 23:01:58 <gmaxwell> (did you have other inputs beyond the ten you just recieved? if so, then you may have managed to not spend the conflicted one)
975 2012-12-15 23:02:16 <kvelertak> these 10 will be the only inputs
976 2012-12-15 23:03:00 <gmaxwell> Also, as I said, the blockchain _does not permit any double spends to exist_. A transactions which spent X when some other transaction spent X would be a double spend. It doesn't 'allow double spends but prevent inflation', it prevents them.
977 2012-12-15 23:03:34 <gmaxwell> so it'll 0 (assuming the conflicting transaction is successful and yours isn't)
978 2012-12-15 23:04:21 <gmaxwell> or rather, he'll recieve an invalid transaction with 10 and then he'll call you a theif and be able to show other people that you authored an invalid transaction.
979 2012-12-15 23:04:38 <gmaxwell> (as he won't be able to usefully spend it, since it can't ever be confirmed)
980 2012-12-15 23:04:56 <kvelertak> alright
981 2012-12-15 23:05:08 <kvelertak> so transactions are invalidated as a whole
982 2012-12-15 23:07:03 <kvelertak> I could avoid that by sending 10 different transactions, at the cost of fragmenting the recipients wallet, correct?
983 2012-12-15 23:08:12 <gmaxwell> you can avoid this by not authoring transactions that spend unconfirmed inputs. Since you're indistinguishable from a theif if you do and someone rips you off.
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985 2012-12-15 23:08:53 <gmaxwell> making multiple transactions also means that the recipent will likely think you underpaid him as they confirm at different times.
986 2012-12-15 23:09:08 <kvelertak> its an online game, waiting for 10 minutes is not acceptable
987 2012-12-15 23:09:37 <gmaxwell> kvelertak: Then using bitcoin directly is not acceptable. The common and sane thing to do is to just keep a balance in your system.
988 2012-12-15 23:09:43 pklaus has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
989 2012-12-15 23:09:50 <gmaxwell> Then when people cash out you do the normal thing.
990 2012-12-15 23:12:03 <gmaxwell> The accounting to keep random users from not being ripped off as you're spending unconfirmed inputs created by other people is an impossible mess. Say you split things up. then someone puts in funds, someone takes out funds.. but the first person was cheating you, now the person who took out funds is owed coin still. oh but wait he sent those back to you and you've since sent out half to someone else. Who do you pay now?
991 2012-12-15 23:12:51 * Luke-Jr begins to think the 10 minute delay is a good thing.
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994 2012-12-15 23:14:01 <gmaxwell> well its unavoidable in any case.
995 2012-12-15 23:14:37 <Luke-Jr> yeah, but if it helps deter abuse, it might be a good thing
996 2012-12-15 23:16:57 <kvelertak> thanks for the help gmaxwell
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1005 2012-12-15 23:29:37 <MC-Eeepc> if bitcoin relayed txn even when they spend funds already spent in an earlier txn
1006 2012-12-15 23:30:16 <MC-Eeepc> would that make double spend attempts atleast detectable and put some sort of risk lower bound on trying one
1007 2012-12-15 23:30:36 <MC-Eeepc> or would it ahve too much spam potential
1008 2012-12-15 23:31:30 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: it would have unbounded spam potential if done how you described it.
1009 2012-12-15 23:32:34 <MC-Eeepc> how about relaying same funds txns for a period of say 30 seconds after the first txn
1010 2012-12-15 23:32:41 <MC-Eeepc> after that dont relay
1011 2012-12-15 23:32:49 <gmaxwell> and it doesn't even let you detect it reliably, since the conflicting spend can just appear in a block. (e.g. in a finney attack)
1012 2012-12-15 23:33:36 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: so I just make a billion double spends in groups every 30 seconds and watch bitcoin convert to molten slag.
1013 2012-12-15 23:34:29 <MC-Eeepc> so there is no way to at least have a good chance of detecting a double spend attempt?
1014 2012-12-15 23:34:34 <MC-Eeepc> no safe way
1015 2012-12-15 23:36:32 <gmaxwell> It's possible to relay them safely, â I posted about this a while back but can't find it. But it's still insufficient because the conflicting spend never has to be relayed, it can just show up in a block.
1016 2012-12-15 23:36:49 <gmaxwell> (e.g. double spender mined it himself or gave it directly to a greedy miner that doesn't relay)
1017 2012-12-15 23:37:45 <MC-Eeepc> that takes a bit mroe effort than a lazy double spend attempt for something worth under a dollar for instance, right
1018 2012-12-15 23:37:53 <gmaxwell> (to realy them safely you relay only the first you've seen, but also relay a double spend notice, but only one for every conflicted input.. if there are more attempted spends people won't know about them. This gives a worst case traffic hit of 2x which is probably fine)
1019 2012-12-15 23:38:02 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: nah, because it just gets automated if its useful.
1020 2012-12-15 23:38:25 <phantomcircuit> as it stands a double spend if you're not a miner would be enormously difficult to actually pull off
1021 2012-12-15 23:38:38 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: did you try bnchmarking -reindex on testnet?
1022 2012-12-15 23:38:44 <phantomcircuit> as a miner a 1 confirmation double spend isn't impossible
1023 2012-12-15 23:38:48 <phantomcircuit> but also isn't likely
1024 2012-12-15 23:39:19 <MC-Eeepc> i think gmaxwell means people will just sell mining power to do it
1025 2012-12-15 23:39:36 <MC-Eeepc> sipa i couldnt get -reindex to do anything
1026 2012-12-15 23:39:48 <sipa> how do you mean?
1027 2012-12-15 23:39:56 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: not really.
1028 2012-12-15 23:40:15 <MC-Eeepc> put -reindex in as a launch arg and it didnt seem to do anything
1029 2012-12-15 23:40:20 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's pretty easy to get half the network working on one txn and half working on another.
1030 2012-12-15 23:40:36 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: -qt or d?
1031 2012-12-15 23:40:44 <MC-Eeepc> qt
1032 2012-12-15 23:40:48 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, right but that wouldn't give you a 1 confirmation double spend
1033 2012-12-15 23:40:54 <phantomcircuit> that would give you a 0 confirmation double spend
1034 2012-12-15 23:40:58 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you can't easily control which is which, but so long as whatever you're tryng to rip off doesn't cost you much when you fail to rip it off..
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1038 2012-12-15 23:41:25 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yes, that gives you a zero confirm... which is what a ton of clowns want to do because of another set of clowns accepting them. :P
1039 2012-12-15 23:41:26 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: what code version?
1040 2012-12-15 23:41:59 <phantomcircuit> sigh
1041 2012-12-15 23:42:08 <phantomcircuit> i accept 1 confirmation at momentovps
1042 2012-12-15 23:42:10 <MC-Eeepc> v0.7.1-283-gf6aadb1-beta
1043 2012-12-15 23:42:17 <sipa> should work
1044 2012-12-15 23:42:21 <phantomcircuit> just because it's not worth it for anybody to rip off
1045 2012-12-15 23:42:44 <sipa> but it probably only takes a few seconds or maybe a minute on verybslow hardware to reindex testnet
1046 2012-12-15 23:42:51 <phantomcircuit> i should probably write something to detect double spends and revoke credit but... really who cares
1047 2012-12-15 23:42:58 <MC-Eeepc> lemme try again
1048 2012-12-15 23:43:08 <MC-Eeepc> maybe i have too many launch args :/
1049 2012-12-15 23:43:16 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: why do you think it didn't work?
1050 2012-12-15 23:43:18 <sipa> you need to already have the blocks
1051 2012-12-15 23:44:21 <sipa> you should see the normal progress bar at the bottom on the qt window, but with "Reindexing..."
1052 2012-12-15 23:44:44 <MC-Eeepc> nope
1053 2012-12-15 23:44:52 <MC-Eeepc> it also said loading block index on start
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1055 2012-12-15 23:45:33 <MC-Eeepc> E:\Blockchain\bitcoin-qt.exe -datadir="E:\blockchain" -testnet=1 -logtimestamps -benchmark -dbcache 512 -reindex
1056 2012-12-15 23:45:39 <MC-Eeepc> thats my launch args
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1058 2012-12-15 23:47:45 <sipa> what's in debug.log?
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1061 2012-12-15 23:52:14 <MC-Eeepc> 12/15/12 23:31:00 LoadBlockIndex(): last block file: CBlockFileInfo(blocks=39952, size=14799742, heights=0..39951, time=2011-02-02..2012-12-15)
1062 2012-12-15 23:52:20 <MC-Eeepc> is that the relevant line
1063 2012-12-15 23:52:57 <sipa> ah!
1064 2012-12-15 23:53:04 <sipa> it's -dbcache=512
1065 2012-12-15 23:53:14 <sipa> not with a space in between
1066 2012-12-15 23:53:23 <MC-Eeepc> woops im dum
1067 2012-12-15 23:53:38 agath has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1068 2012-12-15 23:53:42 <sipa> well, bitcoin is dumb too - it should report failure to interpret your arguments
1069 2012-12-15 23:54:30 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1070 2012-12-15 23:55:07 <MC-Eeepc> ok reindexing
1071 2012-12-15 23:55:24 <MC-Eeepc> "reindexing blocks on disk"
1072 2012-12-15 23:55:30 <MC-Eeepc> about 25 pr second
1073 2012-12-15 23:55:32 <sipa> yeah that's it
1074 2012-12-15 23:55:45 <sipa> testnet has a few horribly hard blocks to verify
1075 2012-12-15 23:55:51 <sipa> after that it gets better
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1077 2012-12-15 23:56:39 <MC-Eeepc> yeh i noticed it getting stuck for a good while sometimes
1078 2012-12-15 23:58:20 <MC-Eeepc> perhaps it would be useful if -benchmark and -reindex used together cleared debug.log before writing a new one and then exited when reindex is finished
1079 2012-12-15 23:58:29 <MC-Eeepc> like some sort of proper benchmark mode
1080 2012-12-15 23:58:58 <sipa> it takes 1:05 here to reindex testnet in a single thread