1 2012-12-24 00:00:28 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
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   4 2012-12-24 00:06:32 <sipa> it's indeed quiet here...
   5 2012-12-24 00:07:33 <phantomcircuit> sipa, turns out most bitcoiners aren't loser shutins
   6 2012-12-24 00:07:41 <phantomcircuit> and actually have somewhere to be during the holidays
   7 2012-12-24 00:07:44 <phantomcircuit> who would have thought
   8 2012-12-24 00:07:59 <sipa> oh please, it's not even december 24th in the US yet!
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  12 2012-12-24 00:12:51 <phantomcircuit> sipa, today is travel day silly
  13 2012-12-24 00:13:21 <phantomcircuit> alternatively everybody got raided by the CIA and are now in an undisclosed location
  14 2012-12-24 00:13:27 <phantomcircuit> s/location/hole/
  15 2012-12-24 00:14:03 <etotheipi_> sipa: have you built binaries for your 0.8-testing version?
  16 2012-12-24 00:14:09 <etotheipi_> or whatever it is
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  19 2012-12-24 00:16:27 <phantomcircuit> water proofing my shoes and i just realized im super lightheaded
  20 2012-12-24 00:16:43 <sipa> etotheipi_: they're not very current, but yes
  21 2012-12-24 00:16:49 <midnightmagic> "too quiet"
  22 2012-12-24 00:16:51 <sipa> i can build new ones, actually
  23 2012-12-24 00:16:53 <etotheipi_> I just need anything that has the new blk file behavior
  24 2012-12-24 00:17:03 <sipa> what OS?
  25 2012-12-24 00:17:05 <etotheipi_> Armory is 100% broken with those builds
  26 2012-12-24 00:17:08 mmoya_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  27 2012-12-24 00:17:09 <etotheipi_> I'm in Ubuntu 64-bit
  28 2012-12-24 00:17:28 <sipa> can't you build them yourself?
  29 2012-12-24 00:17:39 <etotheipi_> I never have before... how much effort is it?
  30 2012-12-24 00:17:44 <maaku> phantomcircuit: I've got a spider-hole; they won't find me!
  31 2012-12-24 00:18:09 <etotheipi_> since I've never done any dev on bitcoind/-qt I never had a reason to compile it
  32 2012-12-24 00:19:09 <sipa> etotheipi_: if you just need bitcoind... libssl-dev, build-essential, libboost-all-dev, libdb5.1++-dev
  33 2012-12-24 00:19:24 <t7> twas easy on debian64 so ubuntu should be the same
  34 2012-12-24 00:19:35 <t7> oh not sipas :P
  35 2012-12-24 00:20:09 <sipa> etotheipi_: and then cd src; make -f makefile.unix bitcoind
  36 2012-12-24 00:21:34 <etotheipi_> sipa: where's the source?
  37 2012-12-24 00:21:39 <etotheipi_> oh wait, I think I know
  38 2012-12-24 00:22:15 <sipa> git clone git@github.com:bitcoin/bitcoin.git; cd bitcoin/src; make -f makefile.unix bitcoind
  39 2012-12-24 00:24:06 <etotheipi_> wait, I don'tI assume there's a "git checkout turbo" in there
  40 2012-12-24 00:24:14 <etotheipi_> whoops
  41 2012-12-24 00:24:20 <sipa> in my repo there is
  42 2012-12-24 00:24:23 <etotheipi_> ignore the first 11 chars
  43 2012-12-24 00:24:35 <sipa> let me update my turbo branch
  44 2012-12-24 00:26:01 <etotheipi_> libdb5.1++-dev?
  45 2012-12-24 00:27:05 <etotheipi_> gah, not in the 10.04 repo
  46 2012-12-24 00:27:13 <sipa> oh, 10.04
  47 2012-12-24 00:27:22 <sipa> then you can just use libdb4.8++-dev
  48 2012-12-24 00:28:15 <etotheipi_> ahh, that works
  49 2012-12-24 00:29:08 <etotheipi_> thanks
  50 2012-12-24 00:29:59 <sipa> hmmm, unit tests fail in turbo
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  53 2012-12-24 00:33:00 <etotheipi_> "net.cpp:1027: error: ‘upnpDiscover’ was not declared in this scope"
  54 2012-12-24 00:33:14 <etotheipi_> about a dozen more related errors
  55 2012-12-24 00:33:26 <sipa> make -f makefile.unix bitcoind USE_UPNP=
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  58 2012-12-24 00:35:48 <sipa> etotheipi_: new turbo branch pushed
  59 2012-12-24 00:36:16 <etotheipi_> how did I get conflicts ?!?
  60 2012-12-24 00:36:25 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  61 2012-12-24 00:36:29 <etotheipi_> does the build process change committed files?
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  63 2012-12-24 00:36:37 <sipa> it shouldn't
  64 2012-12-24 00:36:48 <sipa> what command did you use that reported conflicts?
  65 2012-12-24 00:37:03 <etotheipi_> just did a "git pull"
  66 2012-12-24 00:37:15 <sipa> git pull tries to merge with the remote head
  67 2012-12-24 00:37:32 <sipa> so depending on what branch you had checked out, that may very well result in conflicts
  68 2012-12-24 00:37:40 <etotheipi_> why doesn't it do a fastforward?
  69 2012-12-24 00:37:49 <sipa> because that is not what pull does
  70 2012-12-24 00:37:56 <sipa> it merges your current branch with the remote head
  71 2012-12-24 00:38:17 <sipa> if the remote head is a direct descendent from your current state, then that merge results in a fastforward
  72 2012-12-24 00:38:23 <etotheipi_> I thought it does a fetch, and then merges that into your current state
  73 2012-12-24 00:38:29 <sipa> yes, excactly
  74 2012-12-24 00:38:45 <etotheipi_> right, if I didn't change my current state, why would it not be a fast-forward
  75 2012-12-24 00:39:10 <sipa> because the new remote is not a descendent of the old remote
  76 2012-12-24 00:39:32 <etotheipi_> okay, what should I do?  I'll figure it out when you tell me that
  77 2012-12-24 00:39:38 <stealth222> reset?
  78 2012-12-24 00:39:42 <sipa> git reset --hard sipa/turbo
  79 2012-12-24 00:39:44 <etotheipi_> I just did a hard reset to "leveldb17"
  80 2012-12-24 00:40:06 <sipa> turbo is now hal+parallel+leveldb17+minor fixes
  81 2012-12-24 00:40:52 <etotheipi_> so reset takes me to the "fetch"d state?
  82 2012-12-24 00:40:56 <sipa> yes
  83 2012-12-24 00:41:16 <etotheipi_> man, so much for thinking I understood git
  84 2012-12-24 00:41:28 <sipa> "reset --hard X" is basically "forget what this branch pointed to before, just make it point to X. kthxbye"
  85 2012-12-24 00:41:33 <etotheipi_> I guess I have a very narrow list of commands I use, and it's mostly just myself, so I don't get into trouble
  86 2012-12-24 00:41:46 <stealth222> we all do, etotheipi...I think :)
  87 2012-12-24 00:41:49 <stealth222> or most of us
  88 2012-12-24 00:42:10 <sipa> yeah, you gradually expand the number of commands you use, i guess
  89 2012-12-24 00:42:17 <stealth222> git is brilliant - but you really do need a bigger picture understanding of it to use it right
  90 2012-12-24 00:42:22 <sipa> uhu
  91 2012-12-24 00:42:28 <etotheipi_> I thought I did...
  92 2012-12-24 00:42:33 <stealth222> I still don't use it right - lol
  93 2012-12-24 00:42:38 <sipa> it has several high-level commands that try to be smart in many cases
  94 2012-12-24 00:42:44 <sipa> being smart is nice as long as it works
  95 2012-12-24 00:42:51 <etotheipi_> so how is what you pushed not a direct descendant of my branch?
  96 2012-12-24 00:43:05 <etotheipi_> it's the same branch, right?
  97 2012-12-24 00:43:09 <sipa> yes
  98 2012-12-24 00:43:29 <sipa> turbo is created by a script that merges several pull requests into bitcoin/bitcoin master
  99 2012-12-24 00:43:43 <sipa> and then overwrites the old turbo
 100 2012-12-24 00:43:44 rdymac has joined
 101 2012-12-24 00:44:00 BurtyBB has joined
 102 2012-12-24 00:44:16 <etotheipi_> so... this is an abnormal condition?
 103 2012-12-24 00:44:32 <sipa> unless it's only an extra commit that got added to the very last branch being merged, that will not result in something that is a descendant from a previous run
 104 2012-12-24 00:44:44 <sipa> in general, it's branch that's continuously rebased
 105 2012-12-24 00:44:51 <etotheipi_> oh, it rewrites the whole branch?
 106 2012-12-24 00:44:55 <sipa> yes
 107 2012-12-24 00:45:01 <etotheipi_> okay, so I'm not going crazy
 108 2012-12-24 00:45:15 <sipa> which is something you shouldn't do for public branches
 109 2012-12-24 00:45:24 <sipa> but i want a clean history :)
 110 2012-12-24 00:45:31 <sipa> bitcoin/bitcoin is never rebased
 111 2012-12-24 00:45:38 <etotheipi_> gotcha
 112 2012-12-24 00:45:48 <etotheipi_> I really thought that everything I knew about git went out the window there...
 113 2012-12-24 00:46:01 <etotheipi_> once the word "rebase" pops up, I know things are going to get silly
 114 2012-12-24 00:46:04 <maaku> sipa: what do the numbers mean in dnsstats.log?
 115 2012-12-24 00:46:46 Diapolo has left ()
 116 2012-12-24 00:47:11 <sipa> maaku: timestamp and some weighted average of the number of active nodes at that point, i think
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 119 2012-12-24 00:47:51 <maaku> thanks!
 120 2012-12-24 00:48:00 <sipa> probably the sum over rows for the several columns in the dump file
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 122 2012-12-24 00:52:17 <etotheipi_> wtf... my debug.log is up to 6 GB
 123 2012-12-24 00:52:45 <stealth222> is there any way to undo a push made to a pull request?
 124 2012-12-24 00:52:56 <stealth222> I typed the wrong remote by accident
 125 2012-12-24 00:55:32 <sipa> stealth222: no, but you have a local reflog that remembers old branche
 126 2012-12-24 00:55:35 <sipa> s
 127 2012-12-24 00:56:20 <stealth222> oh well - I guess the commit will appear in the repo
 128 2012-12-24 00:57:15 <etotheipi_> sipa: does 0.8 leave the original blk files, and then just start adding more block data in blocks dir?
 129 2012-12-24 00:57:16 <andytoshi> stealth222, you can repush the old changeset (using reflog to find it as sipa suggests)
 130 2012-12-24 01:00:46 <stealth222> another thing - I'm trying to figure out exactly what the automatic sanity tester does so I can do it locally before pushing to a public repo. Is it pretty much exactly what I see in the test.log?
 131 2012-12-24 01:01:25 eoss has joined
 132 2012-12-24 01:01:30 <stealth222> and can I get that script so that I can run it locally?
 133 2012-12-24 01:02:41 <zooko> gmaxwell: I would be interested in what you ultimately did about the json+Decimal issue.
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 160 2012-12-24 02:26:11 <jgarzik> zooko: nothing :)
 161 2012-12-24 02:26:34 <zooko> jgarzik: ☺
 162 2012-12-24 02:27:22 <jgarzik> zooko: JSON-RPC still outputs balance as naked JSON number, e.g. XXX.YYYYYYYY
 163 2012-12-24 02:27:53 <jgarzik> zooko: python libs for JSON-RPC use Decimal, such as e.g. https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinrpc
 164 2012-12-24 02:28:04 <jgarzik> but there is no "official" client lib for bitcoind's JSON-RPC
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 168 2012-12-24 02:35:32 <D34TH> jgarzik, doesnt your lib use float
 169 2012-12-24 02:35:54 <jgarzik> D34TH: libccoin, you mean?  No floating point used at all.
 170 2012-12-24 02:35:59 <D34TH> python
 171 2012-12-24 02:36:14 <D34TH> python-bitcoinrpc
 172 2012-12-24 02:36:14 <jgarzik> D34TH: python-bitcoinrpc uses Decimal
 173 2012-12-24 02:36:50 <jgarzik> resp = json.loads(resp, parse_float=decimal.Decimal)
 174 2012-12-24 02:37:02 <D34TH> ahh
 175 2012-12-24 02:37:13 <jgarzik> all looks-like-floating-point is shoved through Decimal
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 178 2012-12-24 02:44:07 <zooko> jgarzik: I think that's for the json → Python direction.
 179 2012-12-24 02:44:36 <zooko> IIUC, gmaxwell was saying that in the Python → json direction, if you did json.dumps({'out': Decimal('0.1')}), you'd get an exception.
 180 2012-12-24 02:45:03 <zooko> Which, IIRC, can be solved in sufficiently new versions of simplejson by passing use_decimal=True.
 181 2012-12-24 02:45:48 <jgarzik> zooko: hmmm, I definitely tested that direction when it was originally written.  Wonder if that was something special to my setup.
 182 2012-12-24 02:45:58 <jgarzik> ~Fedora 16 era
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 186 2012-12-24 02:54:14 <zooko> jgarzik: hm.
 187 2012-12-24 02:54:35 <zooko> jgarzik: I had to roll my own patched simplejson to make that work when I did it...
 188 2012-12-24 02:54:53 * zooko looks at https://zooko.com/uri/URI:DIR2-RO:d73ap7mtjvv7y6qsmmwqwai4ii:tq5tqejzulg7yj4h7nxuurpiuuz5jsgvczmdamcalpk2rc6gmbsq/klog.html#pyutil.jsonutil
 189 2012-12-24 02:57:43 MaryJane is now known as Nicksasa
 190 2012-12-24 03:01:34 <stealth222> what are the highest priority improvements/new features for bitcoin and which, if any, are unassigned or does someone need help with?
 191 2012-12-24 03:02:15 <stealth222> is there a document listing that?
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 195 2012-12-24 03:07:22 <zooko> Which was in 2010.
 196 2012-12-24 03:07:45 <zooko> stealth222: there are the regular reports from Gavin: https://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/282120341726326784
 197 2012-12-24 03:10:35 <stealth222> zooko: thanks
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 207 2012-12-24 03:45:11 <gmaxwell> 18:22 <@jgarzik> D34TH: python-bitcoinrpc uses Decimal
 208 2012-12-24 03:45:29 <gmaxwell> Yea, what I get _out_ is Decimal, but it doesn't take Decimal going in, e.g. in createrawtransaction.
 209 2012-12-24 03:45:48 <gmaxwell> haven't actually looked to see why yet— context switched to another project.
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 213 2012-12-24 03:51:41 <zooko> gmaxwell: IIUC the "json" module doesn't have a nice easy way to do that, but the "simplejson" module has (in sufficiently new versions) -- you just pass "use_decimal=True".
 214 2012-12-24 03:52:23 <gmaxwell> zooko: why would you need to pass it a use_decimal=True for data you send _into_ it?
 215 2012-12-24 03:52:46 theorbtwo has joined
 216 2012-12-24 04:08:39 <gmaxwell> crazy, my regular online wallet had over 800 unspent txouts.
 217 2012-12-24 04:09:48 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 218 2012-12-24 04:12:02 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: send them all to SatoshiDICE!  It'll help compress the txout set surely
 219 2012-12-24 04:12:04 * jgarzik runs
 220 2012-12-24 04:12:30 * gmaxwell stabs
 221 2012-12-24 04:13:14 <gmaxwell> Oddly this is _after_ I'd prevously made a cycle or two of compressing my wallet by grooming up txouts.
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 243 2012-12-24 05:29:45 <stealth222> Shouldn't AcceptToMemoryPool always call SyncWithWallets?
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 261 2012-12-24 05:47:37 <midnightmagic> how do I manually build a scripthash for createrawtransaction?
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 264 2012-12-24 06:01:02 <midnightmagic> :-(
 265 2012-12-24 06:05:46 <MC1984> are there any network metrics left that arnt completely unreliable
 266 2012-12-24 06:08:03 <eoss> ?
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 269 2012-12-24 06:14:20 <midnightmagic> MC1984: what?
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 275 2012-12-24 06:33:46 <jgarzik> BitMarket.eu missing 19980 BTC - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5441.msg1413156#msg1413156
 276 2012-12-24 06:35:31 <Cusipzzz> not sure 'missing' is the right word, but yeah another one.
 277 2012-12-24 06:40:22 <gmaxwell> tl;dr had customers funds all at Bitcoinica, in leveraged short positions... "What I didn't expect was that one day it could just dissapear - taking all the money with it" and is only now bothering to tell people when he has 1786 BTC in outstanding withdraws he can't cover.
 278 2012-12-24 06:41:43 <Luke-Jr> tl;dr epic fail
 279 2012-12-24 06:41:45 <Luke-Jr> :P
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 281 2012-12-24 06:42:15 <etotheipi_> endless!
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 283 2012-12-24 06:42:50 <Cusipzzz> yep
 284 2012-12-24 06:44:52 <Cusipzzz> or a convenient cover to just walk away with the money, people will get pennies if anything from bitcoinica
 285 2012-12-24 06:45:10 <gmaxwell> yea. Or why not both?
 286 2012-12-24 06:45:29 toffoo has quit ()
 287 2012-12-24 06:45:40 <gmaxwell> "Opps. bitcoinica ate all my customer's funds... well lets see how long I can keep taking deposits and dropping them into my pocket before the crap hits the fan."
 288 2012-12-24 06:46:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ironically, it sounds like he lost the majority of it BEFORE bitcoinica was hacked
 289 2012-12-24 06:46:29 <gmaxwell> yea, that was ambigious in my reading, but it would have happened eventually in any case.
 290 2012-12-24 06:47:27 <gmaxwell> (he also doesn't say how leveraged he was— but the whole thing is inconsistent. You don't need to put such large positions if the purpose was really to hedge currency conversions)
 291 2012-12-24 06:48:25 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
 292 2012-12-24 06:48:53 <Guest123456789> any advice for a transaction that has not been confirmed for 6 hours
 293 2012-12-24 06:49:27 <Cusipzzz> patience?
 294 2012-12-24 06:49:28 <Guest123456789> also paid 0.001 Fee
 295 2012-12-24 06:49:35 <Luke-Jr> Cusipzzz++
 296 2012-12-24 06:49:40 <Luke-Jr> Guest123456789: txid?
 297 2012-12-24 06:49:57 <Guest123456789> Luke-Jr: PMed
 298 2012-12-24 06:49:58 <weex> Guest123456789: check if any of the inputs have been spent by another transaction?
 299 2012-12-24 06:50:08 <Luke-Jr> Guest123456789: not received. just say it
 300 2012-12-24 06:50:50 <Guest123456789> weex: No
 301 2012-12-24 06:51:12 <Guest123456789> Luke-Jr: Also, thanks for looking into it
 302 2012-12-24 06:52:38 <Guest123456789> Luke-Jr: Any ideas?
 303 2012-12-24 06:53:16 Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 304 2012-12-24 06:53:25 Tritonio has joined
 305 2012-12-24 06:57:02 <Guest123456789> Also, i have heard that some transactions takes more then 24 hours the confirm
 306 2012-12-24 06:57:19 <Guest123456789> Is this true even if you pay a Fee?
 307 2012-12-24 06:57:32 <stealth222> a higher fee makes faster confirmation more likely
 308 2012-12-24 06:57:37 <stealth222> but not guaranteed
 309 2012-12-24 06:58:11 <Cusipzzz> what is the txn id?
 310 2012-12-24 06:58:28 <Guest123456789> I PMed luke
 311 2012-12-24 06:59:11 <Cusipzzz> secret transaction, got it. those always take longer. :)
 312 2012-12-24 07:00:05 <Guest123456789> Luke-Jr: any advice?
 313 2012-12-24 07:03:30 ciphermonk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 314 2012-12-24 07:06:43 <Luke-Jr> Guest123456789: it's already in Eligius's block templates, so I can say it will likely be mined when Eligius finds its next block at least
 315 2012-12-24 07:07:02 <Guest123456789> Luke-Jr: Thanks
 316 2012-12-24 07:08:08 <Guest123456789> Luke-Jr: How much time on avarage does eligius take to find a block?
 317 2012-12-24 07:08:40 <Luke-Jr> dunno, haven't paid attention lately
 318 2012-12-24 07:09:40 <Guest123456789> ok
 319 2012-12-24 07:09:52 <Guest123456789> Also thanks for taking your time to look into it
 320 2012-12-24 07:10:37 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 321 2012-12-24 07:14:03 <gmaxwell> Guest123456789: there are probably other pools attempting to mine it too.
 322 2012-12-24 07:14:47 <gmaxwell> I wonder if I wrote a small program that periodically does a GBT and reports it back to someplace for the purpose of having a mining-eta view of the network if people would run it?
 323 2012-12-24 07:15:19 <gmaxwell> I guess it would need to intercept actual shares or otherwise it would be too easy to spam. :(
 324 2012-12-24 07:17:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ?
 325 2012-12-24 07:17:38 <Luke-Jr> I don't see the spam risk
 326 2012-12-24 07:18:30 <Luke-Jr> any ideas why realloc would return NULL and free the previous pointer? :/
 327 2012-12-24 07:19:32 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: because you've ask for size zero or run out of memory.
 328 2012-12-24 07:19:39 <gmaxwell> s/ask/asked/
 329 2012-12-24 07:20:08 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'm pretty sure it's not size zero, and in the latter case it isn't supposed to free the old pointer :/
 330 2012-12-24 07:21:55 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I doubt that it's defined that its not supposted to free it on malloc failure. That would be hard to implement. :P
 331 2012-12-24 07:22:20 <Luke-Jr> "If memory for the new object cannot be allocated, the old object is not deallocated and its value is unchanged." - C1x :P
 332 2012-12-24 07:25:43 <gmaxwell> Okay, fine. The size is zero then. :P
 333 2012-12-24 07:25:45 <Luke-Jr> glibc's manual says the same thing: "Like malloc, realloc may return a null pointer if no memory space is available to make the block bigger. When this happens, the original block is untouched; it has not been modified or relocated."
 334 2012-12-24 07:26:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, I added a debug print of the size just to check… too bad this bug is so random/rare
 335 2012-12-24 07:26:53 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I wouldn't be _too_ shocked if there was misbehavior on malloc failure in glibc, esp since its really hard to get malloc to fail on linux systems.
 336 2012-12-24 07:27:26 <gmaxwell> (so I suggest looking at the source if you think it really might be failing)
 337 2012-12-24 07:27:42 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: oh, the argument being passed to realloc for size is an unsigned number +1
 338 2012-12-24 07:28:05 <Luke-Jr> that'd be pretty hard to make 0
 339 2012-12-24 07:33:00 forgot has joined
 340 2012-12-24 07:35:39 <gmaxwell> UINT_MAX?
 341 2012-12-24 07:35:42 <gmaxwell> :P
 342 2012-12-24 07:43:51 ThomasV_ has joined
 343 2012-12-24 07:58:17 <Luke-Jr> af32bb06f12f2ae5fdb7face7cd272be67c923e86b7a66a76ded02d954c2f94d is interesting
 344 2012-12-24 07:59:06 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ^
 345 2012-12-24 08:00:08 <stealth222> so why isn't it redeemable? there must be something I'm misunderstanding about the script
 346 2012-12-24 08:00:14 <lianj> Luke-Jr: cant you easily redeem it?
 347 2012-12-24 08:00:41 <Luke-Jr> lianj: it's impossible, actually
 348 2012-12-24 08:00:42 <lianj> block 0 header hashes to that hash asked in OP_EQUAL, no?
 349 2012-12-24 08:00:52 <stealth222> yes, lianj
 350 2012-12-24 08:01:03 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: it is looking for a hash matching block 0's hash, but the author of this txn overlooked a non-obvious problem
 351 2012-12-24 08:01:17 <Luke-Jr> block hashes are shown inverted
 352 2012-12-24 08:01:22 <Luke-Jr> the zeros are at the END of the hash
 353 2012-12-24 08:01:24 <stealth222> oh, lol
 354 2012-12-24 08:01:59 <stealth222> yeah, the byte order thing is annoying - why does bitcoin reverse the sha256 bytes?
 355 2012-12-24 08:02:10 <lianj> Luke-Jr: ah, doh ;)
 356 2012-12-24 08:02:10 <Luke-Jr> blame Satoshi :P
 357 2012-12-24 08:02:24 <Luke-Jr> (it gets worse, too!)
 358 2012-12-24 08:02:38 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you'd think people would try to redeem these things themselves before annoucing them.
 359 2012-12-24 08:02:43 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: XD
 360 2012-12-24 08:03:05 <stealth222> it's just one bitcoin and a little hacker pride at stake, gmaxwell
 361 2012-12-24 08:03:12 <stealth222> not that big a deal :)
 362 2012-12-24 08:03:16 <lianj> also, why did he redeem zero amount inputs?
 363 2012-12-24 08:03:36 <forgot> the reversed sha256 is reversed per uint32 or whole 256bits?
 364 2012-12-24 08:03:48 <gmaxwell> stealth222: well, if someone wants to waste 1 btc, they can happily send it to me instead. :P
 365 2012-12-24 08:03:50 <Luke-Jr> lianj: dunno, looks like p2pool spam
 366 2012-12-24 08:04:00 <Luke-Jr> forgot: whole 256 bits
 367 2012-12-24 08:04:06 <Luke-Jr> forgot: rather, per 8 bit
 368 2012-12-24 08:04:13 <lianj> endianness
 369 2012-12-24 08:04:45 <forgot> Luke-Jr, can you clarify it? assuming sha256 is 8 uint32 integers
 370 2012-12-24 08:04:52 <gmaxwell> stealth222: it just used whatever ordering 'fell out' of the implementation, it didn't go out of its way to order much of anything.
 371 2012-12-24 08:05:40 <forgot> hashlib.sha256('wtf is this order').hexdigest()
 372 2012-12-24 08:05:41 <forgot> 'fb6c2f88588f24246045f2146e5182ad2c2c2143c166aa1ed336a454af7aab99'
 373 2012-12-24 08:05:51 <forgot> simply reverse all bytes?
 374 2012-12-24 08:06:00 <stealth222> forgot: example: a4 68 3d 25 -> 25 3d 68 a4
 375 2012-12-24 08:06:19 <forgot>  hashlib.sha256('wtf is this order').digest()[::-1].encode('hex')
 376 2012-12-24 08:06:19 <forgot>  '99ab7aaf54a436d31eaa66c143212c2cad82516e14f2456024248f58882f6cfb'
 377 2012-12-24 08:06:38 <stealth222> yer
 378 2012-12-24 08:06:44 <Luke-Jr> forgot: the end hash flattens those to 32x uint8 characters
 379 2012-12-24 08:07:01 <Luke-Jr> forgot: yep
 380 2012-12-24 08:07:07 <forgot> that's evil
 381 2012-12-24 08:07:33 <Luke-Jr> forgot: like I said, it gets worse.
 382 2012-12-24 08:07:46 <forgot> like how?
 383 2012-12-24 08:07:59 <Luke-Jr> SHA256 interprets byte input as big endian; so the block header values are little endian of course
 384 2012-12-24 08:08:12 <Luke-Jr> so you have SHA256 interpreting a little endian number as big endian
 385 2012-12-24 08:08:12 <stealth222> that's what's really nasty
 386 2012-12-24 08:08:35 <stealth222> if bitcoin just used big endian for hashes, it would be restricted to OpenSSL/hashing operations
 387 2012-12-24 08:08:41 <stealth222> all other encoding would be little endian
 388 2012-12-24 08:09:25 <Luke-Jr> and then the getwork protocol does the SHA256 preprocessing for the miner - in little endian
 389 2012-12-24 08:09:35 <Luke-Jr> so each 32-bit chunk gets flipped again
 390 2012-12-24 08:09:53 <stealth222> yeah - which is totally stupid considering that as far as miners are concerned, hashes are random numbers
 391 2012-12-24 08:10:22 <gmaxwell> stealth222: as I've told other people— if your biggest concern is byte order then I'm _really_ happy, because thats such minutia in the sea of complex rules which must be exactly right to do anything with bitcoin, if byte order is all thats left you've really got it made. :P
 392 2012-12-24 08:11:14 <stealth222> well, it's just a few more instructions that you need to add to operations - and if you remember where to put them, all's well
 393 2012-12-24 08:11:33 <stealth222> but it can lead to some confusion, for instance with af32bb06f12f2ae5fdb7face7cd272be67c923e86b7a66a76ded02d954c2f94d
 394 2012-12-24 08:12:30 <stealth222> and no, it's certainly not my biggest concern. the fact that you can't tack on more tx fees once you've broadcast a transaction, for example, is a bigger concern :)
 395 2012-12-24 08:12:30 asa1024 has joined
 396 2012-12-24 08:13:12 <stealth222> I'd also like inputs to store amounts (even if redundant) so that you can still tell what they are if the tx is orphaned - and for blocks to store height
 397 2012-12-24 08:13:52 <forgot> i get a work starts with 00000001, if block values in little endian, why it's not 01000000?
 398 2012-12-24 08:14:28 <Luke-Jr> forgot: it's 01000000 in the actual block header
 399 2012-12-24 08:14:55 <forgot> wtf is the protocol think to swap bytes for me..
 400 2012-12-24 08:14:58 <lianj> https://pastee.org/82zch is what i get
 401 2012-12-24 08:15:14 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: byte order is very headachy compared to bigger problems :P
 402 2012-12-24 08:15:43 <forgot> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
 403 2012-12-24 08:15:56 <forgot> is the exmaple real?
 404 2012-12-24 08:16:00 <lianj> wait, my push_data data is stupid
 405 2012-12-24 08:16:32 <forgot> so the only reversed sha256 is merkle ?
 406 2012-12-24 08:16:43 <forgot> the prevhash and resulting hash is unchanged?
 407 2012-12-24 08:17:14 <stealth222> I got it all to work in an implementation I made - but if you were to ask me to code it up again, I'd have to look it all up and test it
 408 2012-12-24 08:17:20 <stealth222> lol
 409 2012-12-24 08:17:31 dvide has quit ()
 410 2012-12-24 08:17:52 <stealth222> and it probably wouldn't work the first time
 411 2012-12-24 08:18:17 <stealth222> I'm sure I'd miss one byte reversing operation somewhere
 412 2012-12-24 08:19:37 <stealth222> yes, it is minutia - yes, it isn't particularly relevant once you have an implementation that exposes a higher level API - but it's annoying that I can't just implement it from memory
 413 2012-12-24 08:21:26 <forgot> im still confusing about a hash < target, are we interpeting a big-endian hash as little-endian and compare them?
 414 2012-12-24 08:22:22 <stealth222> speaking of which, are there any good tools out there for parsing raw transactions?
 415 2012-12-24 08:22:32 <Luke-Jr> forgot: exactly
 416 2012-12-24 08:22:39 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: bitcoind is nice :P
 417 2012-12-24 08:22:56 <stealth222> does bitcoind parse arbitrary scripts into human-readable form?
 418 2012-12-24 08:23:04 <Luke-Jr> yes
 419 2012-12-24 08:23:07 <forgot> why satoshi do this to me, to fuck my mind
 420 2012-12-24 08:23:09 <Luke-Jr> decoderawtransaction
 421 2012-12-24 08:23:20 <stealth222> oh, cool
 422 2012-12-24 08:23:37 <stealth222> lol - there's still features I'm unaware of
 423 2012-12-24 08:23:48 <Luke-Jr> that's a new one
 424 2012-12-24 08:24:12 <stealth222> can it detect encoding errors?
 425 2012-12-24 08:24:19 <forgot> how to turn getwork job back to a raw block ?
 426 2012-12-24 08:25:04 dvide has joined
 427 2012-12-24 08:25:21 <stealth222> error: {"code":-22,"message":"TX decode failed"}
 428 2012-12-24 08:25:44 <stealth222> is there any tool out there that gives you more specific error messages?
 429 2012-12-24 08:27:44 <stealth222> or could decoderawtransaction perhaps be extended to give more detailed error messages?
 430 2012-12-24 08:28:39 <stealth222> not that it's a feature most endusers would care about - but it's certainly helpful to hackers looking to do their own low-level implementation of the protocol
 431 2012-12-24 08:29:37 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
 432 2012-12-24 08:32:35 BlackPrapor has joined
 433 2012-12-24 08:35:35 <Luke-Jr> forgot: you can't do the whole block, just the header
 434 2012-12-24 08:35:42 <Luke-Jr> forgot: for every 4 bytes, invert the order
 435 2012-12-24 08:35:51 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: check debug.log for specifics
 436 2012-12-24 08:36:09 tonikt has joined
 437 2012-12-24 08:36:20 tonikt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 438 2012-12-24 08:38:29 <forgot> Luke-Jr, thank you, I'm trying
 439 2012-12-24 08:38:34 <forgot> 000000027dbaf2ab3f1a493ef2054b9acf5140c887c0aabff7971d0a00000324000000002b107a44
 440 2012-12-24 08:38:35 <forgot> 546c3540bd4cd2ee8f79ed2e8c03c5d2b4daa7faf432951cff25126b50d811051a04fa62
 441 2012-12-24 08:38:40 <forgot> version is 2 now?
 442 2012-12-24 08:38:42 <Luke-Jr> yes
 443 2012-12-24 08:38:54 <forgot> what changed?
 444 2012-12-24 08:39:10 <Luke-Jr> the coinbase transaction's first input scriptPubKey must begin with the block height serialized
 445 2012-12-24 08:39:40 Bi has joined
 446 2012-12-24 08:39:52 <imisor> xmas 4 all :)
 447 2012-12-24 08:39:54 <forgot> ok
 448 2012-12-24 08:40:19 <imisor> i actually usually hate xmas :D
 449 2012-12-24 08:40:26 <imisor> this time monday isn't so bad
 450 2012-12-24 08:41:04 <stealth222> hmm, not seeing anything in debug.log. I'll take a look at CTransaction's serialization code
 451 2012-12-24 08:41:05 <midnightmagic> my transactions, 0 fee, were confirmed inside of about 15 minutes. yay me
 452 2012-12-24 08:42:05 Bi has quit (Client Quit)
 453 2012-12-24 08:42:30 <midnightmagic> It may be hard to get malloc to fail on Linux systems, but it's sure easy to kill it with love.
 454 2012-12-24 08:43:50 <imisor> fail how?
 455 2012-12-24 08:44:02 <imisor> i code mostly c++ nowadays
 456 2012-12-24 08:44:42 <midnightmagic> fail as in full on error.. :)
 457 2012-12-24 08:44:43 <imisor> never really had probs. with malloc
 458 2012-12-24 08:44:52 <imisor> oh i c :)
 459 2012-12-24 08:45:08 <midnightmagic> they were talking about a realloc() issue earlier instead of telling me how to make pay-to-scripthash transactions.
 460 2012-12-24 08:45:35 tonikt has joined
 461 2012-12-24 08:46:04 <imisor> midnightmagic, what exactly deos realloc do :D
 462 2012-12-24 08:46:06 <imisor> never used
 463 2012-12-24 08:46:22 <imisor> didn't have to .. so i dont know what it does:)
 464 2012-12-24 08:46:34 <imisor> frees mem and allocates in same place again?
 465 2012-12-24 08:46:43 <midnightmagic> you feed it an old pointer to mem. you tell it how much new mem you want. realloc() gives you a new region of memory to monkey around with.
 466 2012-12-24 08:46:51 <midnightmagic> not necessarily the same place.
 467 2012-12-24 08:46:57 <imisor> k
 468 2012-12-24 08:47:17 CodesInChaos has joined
 469 2012-12-24 08:47:21 <imisor> long time with c++ :>
 470 2012-12-24 08:47:33 <imisor> before that c etc.. pascal etc. etc. lol
 471 2012-12-24 08:47:49 tonikt has quit (Client Quit)
 472 2012-12-24 08:48:07 tonikt has joined
 473 2012-12-24 08:49:50 * aipa can complain about "new" vs malloc
 474 2012-12-24 08:52:36 <imisor> aipa, whats there to complain?
 475 2012-12-24 08:53:00 <aipa> once saw the assembly output of "new" and noticed it had more instructions
 476 2012-12-24 08:53:11 <imisor> c++ gets real messy in big projects yes, it is also very much stupid.. but it is usefull for some things like games etc ;)
 477 2012-12-24 08:53:28 <Luke-Jr> imisor: I don't think C++ has a realloc equivalent ;)
 478 2012-12-24 08:53:31 <aipa> but what is it supposed to do? it's just an "malloc", just with a call to the constructor afterwards
 479 2012-12-24 08:53:46 <aipa> Luke-Jr: there's vector<>
 480 2012-12-24 08:53:55 <imisor> well thats why there are ~class and class
 481 2012-12-24 08:54:19 <Luke-Jr> aipa: vector<> isn't really realloc
 482 2012-12-24 08:54:30 <midnightmagic> njarne stroustrop himself says he doesn't know the whole language.
 483 2012-12-24 08:54:31 tonikt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 484 2012-12-24 08:54:36 <midnightmagic> er..  bjarne.
 485 2012-12-24 08:54:42 <aipa> sure, there's no real memory copying, just "member copying"
 486 2012-12-24 08:54:46 <stealth222> C++ affords very many different programming idioms/styles - which provides you with much greater flexibility if you know how to use it well - but it can be very confusing when abused.
 487 2012-12-24 08:54:51 tonikt has joined
 488 2012-12-24 08:54:54 <Luke-Jr> aipa: realloc would be more like turning a ClassA object into a SubClassB object
 489 2012-12-24 08:55:10 <stealth222> also, it's sometimes annoying when working on a project that contains different parts that are in very different styles
 490 2012-12-24 08:55:13 <midnightmagic> stealth222: What's that, a euphemistic interpretation of the "blow your whole leg off" quote? :)
 491 2012-12-24 08:55:51 <stealth222> heh. more or less
 492 2012-12-24 08:56:04 <midnightmagic> lol
 493 2012-12-24 08:56:13 zooko has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 494 2012-12-24 08:56:27 <imisor> class foo { Foo() { <set everything to zero> ); ~foo(){ <check which are zero if not delete> .. int init( <args> ) { something = new xyz[size]; } int update( timer etc... ); };
 495 2012-12-24 08:56:30 <midnightmagic> it's become far too civilized in here these days. where's xelister anyway
 496 2012-12-24 08:56:48 <stealth222> C++ generics, for instance, can be very powerful when you do it right - but make one tiny mistake and good luck deciphering the error messages
 497 2012-12-24 08:57:04 <imisor> its somehow easier to manage memory usage but when project has more than 2 millons askiis of code it simply gets messy again :D
 498 2012-12-24 08:57:08 <Luke-Jr> imisor: delete NULL; is invalid C++? :P
 499 2012-12-24 08:57:18 zooko has joined
 500 2012-12-24 08:57:41 <imisor> delete NULL? :D what that is supposed to mean, delete nothing?
 501 2012-12-24 08:57:55 <Luke-Jr> imisor: delete a null pointer
 502 2012-12-24 08:58:11 <Luke-Jr> imisor: free is valid and ignored in C
 503 2012-12-24 08:58:22 <Luke-Jr> so you don't need to check if there's an object assigned
 504 2012-12-24 08:58:25 <stealth222> doesn't delete NULL fire an exception?
 505 2012-12-24 08:58:51 <imisor> :)
 506 2012-12-24 08:58:55 <Luke-Jr> maybe.
 507 2012-12-24 08:59:01 <Luke-Jr> I know C better than C++ ;)
 508 2012-12-24 08:59:11 <aipa> i think "delete 0" is supposed to work
 509 2012-12-24 08:59:15 <aipa> and not crash
 510 2012-12-24 08:59:19 <imisor> Luke-Jr, yeah C is nice .. they are just so different
 511 2012-12-24 08:59:38 <imisor> for different purposes
 512 2012-12-24 08:59:48 tonikt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 513 2012-12-24 08:59:54 <aipa> but still, i'd write "if (x) delete x;"
 514 2012-12-24 09:00:06 <aipa> i'm against the use of NULL
 515 2012-12-24 09:00:21 <imisor> yeah
 516 2012-12-24 09:00:25 <imisor> i use zero simply
 517 2012-12-24 09:00:27 JZavala has joined
 518 2012-12-24 09:00:27 <aipa> except in very special cases, such as in variable argument lists
 519 2012-12-24 09:00:35 tonikt has joined
 520 2012-12-24 09:00:38 tonikt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 521 2012-12-24 09:00:39 <stealth222> actually, C++ doesn't allow delete NULL; NULL is treated as a long int
 522 2012-12-24 09:00:46 <imisor> :D
 523 2012-12-24 09:00:48 <imisor> oh
 524 2012-12-24 09:00:49 <imisor> funny
 525 2012-12-24 09:00:52 <Luke-Jr> would be nice if C++ kept up with C <.<
 526 2012-12-24 09:00:58 tonikt has joined
 527 2012-12-24 09:01:22 <imisor> Luke-Jr, it would be nice .. code c or c++ doesn't matter like in compiler .. it would be nice
 528 2012-12-24 09:02:04 <stealth222> int main() { int* i = NULL; delete i; return 0; }
 529 2012-12-24 09:02:05 <imisor> win+c++ something like kbhit is err
 530 2012-12-24 09:02:07 <stealth222> I just tested that
 531 2012-12-24 09:02:11 <stealth222> it did not throw an exception
 532 2012-12-24 09:02:17 <imisor> :)
 533 2012-12-24 09:02:37 sgstair has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 534 2012-12-24 09:02:56 <stealth222> but int main() { delete NULL; return 0; } produces a compiler error
 535 2012-12-24 09:03:18 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: well, it *is* stupid to "delete NULL" literally :p
 536 2012-12-24 09:03:33 sgstair has joined
 537 2012-12-24 09:04:04 <aipa> "delete ((int*)0)" would probably work
 538 2012-12-24 09:04:33 <aipa> or i don't know
 539 2012-12-24 09:04:42 <stealth222> yes, it would
 540 2012-12-24 09:04:54 <stealth222> int main() { delete (int*)NULL; return 0; }
 541 2012-12-24 09:05:00 <stealth222> just exits without incident
 542 2012-12-24 09:05:47 juchmis has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 543 2012-12-24 09:05:51 <stealth222> but delete (void*)NULL; gives a compiler error
 544 2012-12-24 09:06:10 <stealth222> or a warning
 545 2012-12-24 09:06:13 <stealth222> it will still run
 546 2012-12-24 09:06:22 juchmis has joined
 547 2012-12-24 09:06:23 <aipa> must be the void then. doesn't have a destructor
 548 2012-12-24 09:06:28 <stealth222> right
 549 2012-12-24 09:06:38 <midnightmagic> oh good grief. could gettext possibly have any more dependencies.
 550 2012-12-24 09:06:43 * midnightmagic goes to bed.
 551 2012-12-24 09:07:15 <aipa> i have an official complaint about c++...
 552 2012-12-24 09:08:13 <aipa> was thinking i should be able to write a template with lesser typing
 553 2012-12-24 09:08:41 <stealth222> can you elaborate?
 554 2012-12-24 09:09:00 <stealth222> you mean you want runtime type checking?
 555 2012-12-24 09:09:05 <aipa> say, something like this: f(a,b,c) { return a + b + c; }
 556 2012-12-24 09:09:12 <aipa> a simple inline function
 557 2012-12-24 09:09:18 <stealth222> sure
 558 2012-12-24 09:09:33 <forgot> why don't just use python...
 559 2012-12-24 09:10:03 <forgot> only write highly-optimized C extension for a bottle neck profiled
 560 2012-12-24 09:10:05 <aipa> i'd have to write it as "template <typename A, typename B, typename C, typename D> D f(A a, B b, C c) { return a+b+c; }"
 561 2012-12-24 09:10:53 <stealth222> yeah, it is a bit verbose
 562 2012-12-24 09:11:06 <aipa> wishing there was a fast compiled language that allowed me to write something like that as something like "f(a,b,c) = a+b+c;"
 563 2012-12-24 09:11:26 <stealth222> and these LONG template definitions also are a pain in the ass when you're trying to decipher compiler errors
 564 2012-12-24 09:11:28 * aipa thinks of Haskell, but it's just not c++
 565 2012-12-24 09:11:46 <stealth222> one definition might take up the whole screen
 566 2012-12-24 09:12:03 <stealth222> especially when you start nesting templates
 567 2012-12-24 09:12:22 <forgot> your definition is dynamic, and dynamic languages cannot be compiled, however they can be JITed
 568 2012-12-24 09:12:44 <Luke-Jr> aipa: well…
 569 2012-12-24 09:12:50 <Luke-Jr> #define f(a,b,c) (a+b+c)
 570 2012-12-24 09:13:57 <aipa> eh, i guess i'll have to satisfy myself with that
 571 2012-12-24 09:14:21 <stealth222> what if it were such that if you omitted types it was understood to be a template?
 572 2012-12-24 09:14:38 <aipa> yes, i was thinking about that possibility
 573 2012-12-24 09:14:41 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: how does it know the keyword is a type?
 574 2012-12-24 09:14:55 <Luke-Jr> or maybe
 575 2012-12-24 09:15:06 <Luke-Jr> auto f(auto a, auto b, auto c) { return a + b + c; }
 576 2012-12-24 09:15:19 <stealth222> I could live with that
 577 2012-12-24 09:15:41 <aipa> guess i could live with that too
 578 2012-12-24 09:15:57 <stealth222> #define f(a,b,c) (a+b+c) is fine for very short, simple functions
 579 2012-12-24 09:16:04 <aipa> just "auto f(a,b,c) { return a+b+c; }" looks better
 580 2012-12-24 09:16:15 <stealth222> but for a longer function, using preprocessor macros is asking for trouble
 581 2012-12-24 09:16:28 <Luke-Jr> no kidding, uthash is a mess
 582 2012-12-24 09:16:31 <aipa> yeah, evaluation
 583 2012-12-24 09:16:50 <Luke-Jr> I like Perl: sub f{shift+shift+shift}
 584 2012-12-24 09:16:51 <Luke-Jr> <.<
 585 2012-12-24 09:18:26 <Luke-Jr> or to do variable argument count: sub f{my $r;$r+=$_ for @_;$r}
 586 2012-12-24 09:19:02 <forgot> def f(*args): return len(args)
 587 2012-12-24 09:20:13 <forrestv> len instead of sum?
 588 2012-12-24 09:20:24 <forgot> i cannot read perl :(
 589 2012-12-24 09:20:43 <forgot> i thought it was counting # arguments :((
 590 2012-12-24 09:26:13 ThomasV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 591 2012-12-24 09:26:59 <forgot> finally, ported rpcminer-cuda to poclbm, can I donate 1BTC for help, Luke-Jr ?
 592 2012-12-24 09:38:28 <stealth222> Say I have forked bitcoin/bitcoin master at github, I'm working on a few branches, and bitcoin/bitcoin master changes. How can I merge those changes back in with my fork so that the commits all contain those changes?
 593 2012-12-24 09:38:47 <stealth222> I guess I have to do a new commit for each branch?
 594 2012-12-24 09:40:00 <stealth222> or can I rebase it with the new bitcoin/bitcoin master?
 595 2012-12-24 09:42:12 one_zero has quit ()
 596 2012-12-24 09:42:43 egecko has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 597 2012-12-24 09:44:08 <Luke-Jr> forgot: 1Bbx57zzUBX7prDgynZrSxShSAWQLC5Fkp if you want
 598 2012-12-24 09:44:13 <Luke-Jr> forgot: it's working, then?
 599 2012-12-24 09:44:44 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: yes; git help rebase
 600 2012-12-24 09:44:58 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: or if you want to do things the low-level way, check out git reset and git cherry-pick
 601 2012-12-24 09:45:13 <forgot> 1BTC sent :)
 602 2012-12-24 09:46:16 <forgot> working like a dream
 603 2012-12-24 09:48:24 RazielZ has joined
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 606 2012-12-24 09:51:09 rebroad has joined
 607 2012-12-24 09:51:16 <Luke-Jr> forgot: any interest in porting to BFGMiner? :P
 608 2012-12-24 09:51:24 <Luke-Jr> how's it perform compared to OpenCL btw?
 609 2012-12-24 09:51:33 rebroad is now known as Guest68559
 610 2012-12-24 09:51:40 <forgot> opencl on cuda has bug
 611 2012-12-24 09:51:45 <forgot> will eat up cpu
 612 2012-12-24 09:51:53 <Luke-Jr> same hashrate tho?
 613 2012-12-24 09:52:18 <forgot> a bit higher since it's native on nvidia devices
 614 2012-12-24 09:52:38 <forgot> but not so higher
 615 2012-12-24 09:53:32 <Luke-Jr> forgot: might ask this guy what reward he's offering: https://github.com/luke-jr/bfgminer/issues/132
 616 2012-12-24 09:55:49 <forgot> i may create a pull request to poclbm
 617 2012-12-24 09:56:13 <forgot> seems im not alone :)
 618 2012-12-24 09:57:04 <forgot> bfgminer is very cool, I highly respect
 619 2012-12-24 09:57:21 <Luke-Jr> forgot: the guy in that link has bfgminer integrated into his computer game, and players pay-to-play by it mining in the background ;p
 620 2012-12-24 09:57:31 <Luke-Jr> so the 100% CPU bug bothers him quite a bit
 621 2012-12-24 09:57:59 <forgot> im doing exactly the same thing
 622 2012-12-24 09:58:16 <Luke-Jr> hah, nice
 623 2012-12-24 09:59:05 <forgot> that's way I have to mine in python
 624 2012-12-24 09:59:26 <forgot> my customers won't like an embed binary
 625 2012-12-24 09:59:52 <Luke-Jr> your customers all run Linux or smth? O.o
 626 2012-12-24 10:00:15 <forgot> windows
 627 2012-12-24 10:00:38 <Luke-Jr> I'd have thought the opposite for Windows
 628 2012-12-24 10:00:54 <Luke-Jr> Python has overhead (bundled interpreter etc) and most users don't even know what source code is
 629 2012-12-24 10:01:10 <Guest68559> good morning all
 630 2012-12-24 10:01:26 Guest68559 is now known as Rebroad_
 631 2012-12-24 10:01:29 <forgot> some malware may embed rpcminer or bfgminer as binary dll in windows
 632 2012-12-24 10:01:44 <Luke-Jr> ah, looking to avoid that
 633 2012-12-24 10:01:50 <Luke-Jr> Rebroad_: hey, ltns
 634 2012-12-24 10:02:13 <Rebroad_> Merry Christmas (to all who celebrate it) for tomorrow/day after tomorrow
 635 2012-12-24 10:02:24 * Rebroad_ for some reason can't change his nick to "Rebroad"
 636 2012-12-24 10:02:47 harkon has joined
 637 2012-12-24 10:02:54 rlifchitz has joined
 638 2012-12-24 10:03:01 <Rebroad_> Luke-Jr, I tried merging your coincontrol with the latest master but it required a bit of work...
 639 2012-12-24 10:03:02 <Luke-Jr> Rebroad_: it's registered by … looks like you
 640 2012-12-24 10:03:15 <Luke-Jr> Rebroad_: that's a shame, I'll probably need to drop it then :<
 641 2012-12-24 10:03:59 <Rebroad_> Luke-Jr, I was thinking of writing some python script to interface with bitcoind to provide an easy way to group addresses into groups and move funds keeping groups independant..
 642 2012-12-24 10:04:19 <Luke-Jr> Rebroad_: how is that different from multiwallet?
 643 2012-12-24 10:04:33 <Rebroad_> I've not heard of multiwallet..
 644 2012-12-24 10:05:36 <stealth222> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2124
 645 2012-12-24 10:06:14 <Rebroad_> do you mean multibit?
 646 2012-12-24 10:06:45 <Rebroad_> ah.. thanks, stealth222
 647 2012-12-24 10:07:10 <Rebroad_> how do I merge with that pull please? I forget how to do these things...
 648 2012-12-24 10:07:49 <stealth222> we're all learning to use git, Rebroad_. Welcome to the club :)
 649 2012-12-24 10:08:24 <stealth222> git branch <branch you're merging into>
 650 2012-12-24 10:08:32 <stealth222> git merge <branch to merge>
 651 2012-12-24 10:08:36 <stealth222> or something like that :p
 652 2012-12-24 10:08:56 <stealth222> actually, git checkout <branch to merge into>
 653 2012-12-24 10:09:29 <Rebroad_> the main thing I'd like to learn to do with git (if possible) is to rebase -i my master to the upstream master, but without losing the merge information where I've merged my own branches in to create my master..
 654 2012-12-24 10:11:07 <Luke-Jr> Rebroad_: git fetch git://github.com/CodeShark/bitcoin.git multiwallet && git merge FETCH_HEAD
 655 2012-12-24 10:12:39 <Rebroad_> Luke-Jr, thanks... I take it this is just RPC stuff, no gui changes? I wanted to write something that makes it really easy to group the addresses, using the current descriptions and allows labelling of the groups, and then can show total balance per group, and once the groups are created, any payments are limited to the total of the contents of that group.
 656 2012-12-24 10:12:54 <stealth222> there are no GUI changes
 657 2012-12-24 10:13:05 <stealth222> a GUI would have to be written to make use of it
 658 2012-12-24 10:13:12 <stealth222> it's all CLI for now
 659 2012-12-24 10:13:13 <Luke-Jr> Rebroad_: dunno, I was talking in general/theory, not a specific implementation
 660 2012-12-24 10:16:39 <stealth222> Rebroad_, please feel free to write a GUI for it :)
 661 2012-12-24 10:17:18 <stealth222> the way bitcoind is currently implemented, all the coins inside a single wallet are liberally mixed regardless of the account name corresponding to the outputs
 662 2012-12-24 10:17:34 <stealth222> but by having multiple wallets, keeping things separate is simple
 663 2012-12-24 10:17:42 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: are you CodeShark? :P
 664 2012-12-24 10:17:42 <Rebroad_> how about instead of multiwallet like that we simple separate the gui from the bitcoind, so that each gui is linked to one wallet... or some solution between that and this one...
 665 2012-12-24 10:19:07 <stealth222> the GUI is pretty much already separate
 666 2012-12-24 10:21:50 <stealth222> and geting the GUI to use a different wallet would be fairly straightforward
 667 2012-12-24 10:22:11 <stealth222> getting a GUI to display multiple wallets and switch between them would require a tiny bit of effort
 668 2012-12-24 10:25:32 <aipa> this is defamation, gmaxwell
 669 2012-12-24 10:25:39 <aipa> and you are guilty
 670 2012-12-24 10:25:51 <aipa> this gets you 2 years in prison here
 671 2012-12-24 10:26:36 <aipa> you are making my already fucked up life even worse
 672 2012-12-24 10:27:23 <aipa> but you are good at it, you are in the right place
 673 2012-12-24 10:27:39 <aipa> your wife is a lawyer too
 674 2012-12-24 10:27:59 denisx has joined
 675 2012-12-24 10:28:08 <aipa> you sure know how to handle the little "trolls" like me
 676 2012-12-24 10:28:45 <forgot> is gmaxwell ghosting around? I didn't see
 677 2012-12-24 10:28:52 <aipa> he is in channel
 678 2012-12-24 10:29:01 <aipa> he will probably get this
 679 2012-12-24 10:29:12 rdymac has joined
 680 2012-12-24 10:29:13 <aipa> but will ceremonially ban me again
 681 2012-12-24 10:29:49 <aipa> you can understand why i feel like reacting violently
 682 2012-12-24 10:30:21 <aipa> aethero disappeared
 683 2012-12-24 10:30:32 <aipa> you should look at aethero's rating of gmaxwell too
 684 2012-12-24 10:30:50 <aipa> you can understand why i'd want to ban gmaxwell from the world
 685 2012-12-24 10:31:16 <stealth222> wtf?!?!
 686 2012-12-24 10:32:18 <aipa> long story, stealth222. i want gmaxwell's rating of stamit removed
 687 2012-12-24 10:32:56 <aipa> from #bitcoin-otc, just now: <Hasimir> Luke-Jr, have you seen gmaxwell's rating of stamit?  I can see why he'd go on a banning spree
 688 2012-12-24 10:33:39 <aipa> i now have to pretend i am a different person
 689 2012-12-24 10:33:52 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: just ignore him
 690 2012-12-24 10:34:01 <aipa> stealth222: just ignore Luke-Jr
 691 2012-12-24 10:34:12 <stealth222> enough with the personal shit - take that somewhere else
 692 2012-12-24 10:34:14 <aipa> don't know how to fight this shit
 693 2012-12-24 10:34:24 <aipa> there's nowhere i can take it
 694 2012-12-24 10:34:40 <aipa> "banned from everywhere", remember?
 695 2012-12-24 10:34:58 <stealth222> well, bitching about it here is not likely to improve the situation
 696 2012-12-24 10:35:09 <aipa> got talk about getting "convicted"
 697 2012-12-24 10:35:21 <aipa> i got that talk from a friend of gmaxwell
 698 2012-12-24 10:35:44 <aipa> that's the next step
 699 2012-12-24 10:36:07 <aipa> it's not enough that my life is fucked, my money is stolen, my reputation is fucked
 700 2012-12-24 10:36:17 <aipa> i have to be put behind bars too
 701 2012-12-24 10:36:36 <Luke-Jr> you could just shut up instead
 702 2012-12-24 10:37:09 <aipa> why don't you and your friends shut up?
 703 2012-12-24 10:40:32 <aipa> i used to do all these little projects long ago, but now i feel like i can't work on anything
 704 2012-12-24 10:40:57 <stealth222> go talk to a shrink
 705 2012-12-24 10:44:18 <stealth222> now back to other business...automatic merges kind of scare me
 706 2012-12-24 10:44:53 <SomeoneWeird> heh
 707 2012-12-24 10:45:02 <aipa> heh eh?
 708 2012-12-24 10:45:10 <aipa> next thing the psych ward for stamit
 709 2012-12-24 10:45:15 <stealth222> when I do git rebase <branch>, how can I be sure it did what I wanted?
 710 2012-12-24 10:45:34 <stealth222> and can I roll back the rebase later if I change my mind?
 711 2012-12-24 10:45:41 <stealth222> or do I need to keep a separate backup?
 712 2012-12-24 10:46:23 <stealth222> How do I diff the rebased branch with the original branch?
 713 2012-12-24 10:46:48 <stealth222> (other than cloning the original branch into a different repo and doing a diff on the files)
 714 2012-12-24 10:50:28 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: just save the commit ids that interest you
 715 2012-12-24 10:50:56 <Luke-Jr> git checkout <commitid> will always work as long as you don't 'git gc' (and disable the automatic gc)
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 717 2012-12-24 10:51:43 <stealth222> oh, that's good to know
 718 2012-12-24 10:51:53 <stealth222> so even if I rewrite branches, I can still checkout any commit
 719 2012-12-24 10:52:09 <Luke-Jr> just be sure gc doesn't run :P
 720 2012-12-24 10:52:31 <stealth222> right - lol
 721 2012-12-24 10:55:37 BlackPrapor has joined
 722 2012-12-24 10:56:45 <stealth222> can I browse for commit logs even if they are not in any of my tracking branches?
 723 2012-12-24 10:57:16 <stealth222> if I forget a commit id, can I retrieve it later?
 724 2012-12-24 10:58:10 <Luke-Jr> maybe.
 725 2012-12-24 10:58:21 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 726 2012-12-24 10:58:36 <Luke-Jr> .git/logs/ has useful info for me
 727 2012-12-24 11:02:26 <stealth222> I'm still trying to figure out the best workflow. I'd like to rebase my branches to the latest master branch frequently enough that merging doesn't become overwhelming later - but I'm also afraid of breaking stable builds on my own branches
 728 2012-12-24 11:07:04 <SomeoneWeird> http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/
 729 2012-12-24 11:07:40 <stealth222> I guess you can always save a text file somewhere in your working tree with commit hashes
 730 2012-12-24 11:07:42 <stealth222> lol
 731 2012-12-24 11:07:48 <stealth222> but that seems rather inelegant
 732 2012-12-24 11:08:18 <stealth222> or is that what tags are for?
 733 2012-12-24 11:08:22 <stealth222> I haven't even used those things
 734 2012-12-24 11:08:42 <stealth222> thanks for the article, SW
 735 2012-12-24 11:13:51 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 736 2012-12-24 11:16:33 <lianj> stealth222: cat .git/logs/HEAD or git reflog --all
 737 2012-12-24 11:18:12 <lianj> SomeoneWeird: the article doesnt talk about rebase? odd
 738 2012-12-24 11:19:27 rdymac has joined
 739 2012-12-24 11:19:49 <SomeoneWeird> http://gitready.com/intermediate/2009/01/31/intro-to-rebase.html
 740 2012-12-24 11:19:51 <SomeoneWeird> :)
 741 2012-12-24 11:19:57 <stealth222> thanks, lianj
 742 2012-12-24 11:19:58 <lianj> and uses a fast-forward merge as example…
 743 2012-12-24 11:21:52 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: I have a ton of branches
 744 2012-12-24 11:22:06 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: when I rebase,  I rename them to OLD_tagname_DATE
 745 2012-12-24 11:22:32 <lianj> for my projects i often force people to rebase their feature branch so i can merge fast-forward on upstream side then. <my_feature> git merge upstream/master and doing that several times will writing your feature is ugly/evil
 746 2012-12-24 11:23:23 <Luke-Jr> lianj: I disagree. I'd prefer people never rebase for my projects ;)
 747 2012-12-24 11:23:28 <Luke-Jr> destroying history is eek
 748 2012-12-24 11:23:49 <lianj> its not destroying history, just rebasing them ontop of the new upstream
 749 2012-12-24 11:24:28 <Luke-Jr> lianj: ok, then how, with the resulting repository, do you see the commit on top of an older upstream?
 750 2012-12-24 11:24:35 <Luke-Jr> the one it was originally based on
 751 2012-12-24 11:25:42 <lianj> you dont but dont need too anyway, when he asks you to merge his rebased upstream, that where it was based and tested on before asking you
 752 2012-12-24 11:25:51 <lianj> *to
 753 2012-12-24 11:27:53 <Luke-Jr> it's history.
 754 2012-12-24 11:28:27 Impaler has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 755 2012-12-24 11:29:01 <lianj> 'i want you to merge my 3 month old code' sure, please rebase and test it with upstream and give me green lights to pull it then. if you just merge the old one you tend to be in the position of merge conflicts of feature-code you didnt write and have to do the testing if his feature-code works after 2 month of upstream moving forward
 756 2012-12-24 11:29:26 <lianj> Luke-Jr: yea, local history of the guy writing the feature, not upstream history
 757 2012-12-24 11:29:57 <Luke-Jr> lianj: he can merge master into the pullreq ;)
 758 2012-12-24 11:30:19 <Luke-Jr> lianj: history is history; as long as it isn't a mess, it's better to have
 759 2012-12-24 11:30:38 <lianj> true, but usually its a needless mess for upstream history
 760 2012-12-24 11:31:25 <lianj> i dont care if he started a master X and then merged master Y to test before finally opening a pull request to merge back his feature into master Y
 761 2012-12-24 11:31:44 <stealth222> I've gotten into the habit of doing git commit -a --amend almost always up until I've got something fairly stable
 762 2012-12-24 11:32:10 <stealth222> that's to say, I don't care to save my history of fixing compiler errors and stuff
 763 2012-12-24 11:33:04 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 764 2012-12-24 11:33:24 <lianj> for you local branch, do small commits (no amend), and when you rebase for upstream, squash the commits while doing the rebase.
 765 2012-12-24 11:33:48 <stealth222> most of my commits don't even merit no amend - lol
 766 2012-12-24 11:33:54 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 767 2012-12-24 11:34:11 <lianj> i can see Luke-Jr's point, but does upstream really need your history of developing the commit? you can still have that whole history on your fork to a pushed branch
 768 2012-12-24 11:34:18 <stealth222> that's to say, I'm nearly certain I will have no reason at all to ever go back
 769 2012-12-24 11:37:28 <lianj> isnt there a saying that locally you can fail and rework your feature with howmany tiny and shitty commits how you want because no one need to know once to release that feature in a squashed/finialized/tested form.
 770 2012-12-24 11:40:24 <forgot> you can clone a repo and copy modified files over to make a merged submit
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 773 2012-12-24 11:46:37 <Luke-Jr> lianj: this is also one thing I see better about bzr: its log tool hides merged branch histories by default
 774 2012-12-24 11:46:44 <Luke-Jr> so there is no incentive to squash history
 775 2012-12-24 11:48:19 <Luke-Jr> so the master branch ends up with a log of neat orderly high-level view of the changes, and you can still delve into the details when you need to
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 782 2012-12-24 12:10:58 <stealth222> I like to squash history and then write a commit message that describes the changes made from a higher level perspective
 783 2012-12-24 12:11:32 <stealth222> no need to keep track of each and every bug fix
 784 2012-12-24 12:13:57 <stealth222> only bug fixes that involve some deeper issue that could have been or could still be a problem elsewhere
 785 2012-12-24 12:14:44 <stealth222> compiler errors due to stupid typos and bugs involving forgetting to insert an obvious line somewhere don't need to be kept in the history
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 790 2012-12-24 12:39:12 <UukGoblin> beauty of git
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 794 2012-12-24 12:44:14 <stealth222> I still don't really trust automatic merges :p
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 797 2012-12-24 12:56:33 <lianj> stealth222: if its not fast forward need to review it or resolving conflicts anyway
 798 2012-12-24 12:56:59 <lianj> thats also good about rebase, serves you conflicts in smaller chunks
 799 2012-12-24 12:58:00 <stealth222> but then anyone who forked off your commit prior to rebasing will also have to merge and/or rebase
 800 2012-12-24 12:58:26 <stealth222> I guess that's ok
 801 2012-12-24 12:58:56 <sipa> people rarely branch of a personal dev branch
 802 2012-12-24 12:59:21 <sipa> and the level of detail is not really an issue
 803 2012-12-24 12:59:48 <sipa> but commits should be at least meaningful on their own
 804 2012-12-24 13:00:04 <sipa> before being merged in mainline
 805 2012-12-24 13:01:19 <stealth222> good morning, sipa :)
 806 2012-12-24 13:02:40 <sipa> ty!
 807 2012-12-24 13:03:18 <sipa> i'll have a look at your pullreqs after christmas
 808 2012-12-24 13:03:37 <stealth222> awesome.
 809 2012-12-24 13:05:40 <stealth222> I had a specific question regarding my last commit to 2124: I was thinking main.cpp - SyncWithWallets() should be always called from CTxMemPool::accept() when it is successful and removing SyncWithWallets from ProcessMessage but keeping it in CBlock::ConnectBlock()
 810 2012-12-24 13:06:23 <stealth222> the reasoning is that all wallets/listeners should be alerted to new transactions being added to the mempool, regardless of their source
 811 2012-12-24 13:06:50 <stealth222> the way it was before, a transaction sent by the client would not be reported to other wallets
 812 2012-12-24 13:07:01 <stealth222> or listeners
 813 2012-12-24 13:07:16 <stealth222> only transactions received in a message from a peer or seen in a connected block
 814 2012-12-24 13:07:54 <stealth222> so since you know the code much better than I do, is this reasoning correct? and will this change potentially break anything else?
 815 2012-12-24 13:09:45 <stealth222> :s/removing SyncWithWallets/removing the calls to SyncWithWallets()/g
 816 2012-12-24 13:13:12 <stealth222> it's more a question of how you had intended to use SyncWithWallets - Wallets is in the plural, implying some ideas of future features
 817 2012-12-24 13:17:44 <stealth222> anyhow, no rush - I'll wait until after christmas :)
 818 2012-12-24 13:18:37 rdymac has joined
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 820 2012-12-24 13:31:23 paraipan has joined
 821 2012-12-24 13:36:47 <aipa> have you seen gmaxwell's WoT rating? i don't think he should be a developer anymore
 822 2012-12-24 13:36:53 <aipa> i think he should be banned from everywhere
 823 2012-12-24 13:37:21 <stealth222> please do us all a favor and die
 824 2012-12-24 13:37:33 <aipa> gmaxwell should be the one to die
 825 2012-12-24 13:37:38 <aipa> sorry, stealth222
 826 2012-12-24 13:37:51 <aipa> these kinds of talks are causing me a problem
 827 2012-12-24 13:38:02 <stealth222> don't bring it here
 828 2012-12-24 13:38:25 <aipa> can't bring it anywhere, stealth222, they have the ops, they have the servers
 829 2012-12-24 13:39:45 <aipa> i want to break the pattern, stealth222
 830 2012-12-24 13:40:09 <aipa> it's starting to become a pattern
 831 2012-12-24 13:40:24 <stealth222> look, aipa - I don't have any issues with you yet...but if you keep bringing this shit into this channel I will
 832 2012-12-24 13:40:37 <stealth222> please take it somewhere else
 833 2012-12-24 13:40:46 <aipa> like, say #bitcoin-court ?
 834 2012-12-24 13:40:51 <aipa> heh
 835 2012-12-24 13:42:01 <aipa> <Luke-Jr> aipa: is your hue foggy today?
 836 2012-12-24 13:42:30 forgot has joined
 837 2012-12-24 13:42:52 <aipa> gmaxwell: YOU die this time
 838 2012-12-24 13:50:49 <aipa> did you know that gmaxwell is a wanted criminal?
 839 2012-12-24 13:52:51 <sipa> llkz,
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 846 2012-12-24 14:04:44 <rdymac> o.o?
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 858 2012-12-24 14:30:53 <Luke-Jr> [12:43:12] <lianj> stealth222: if its not fast forward need to review it or resolving conflicts anyway <-- that's not what fast forward means, no
 859 2012-12-24 14:45:17 <sipa> fast forward simply means there is nothing to merge
 860 2012-12-24 14:47:55 <stealth222> isn't fast forwarding essentially the same as a pull but in reverse? (to the remote rather than from it)
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 865 2012-12-24 14:53:20 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: no, fast forward usually only occurs on a pull
 866 2012-12-24 14:53:26 <lianj> stealth222: no, pull is fetch + merge
 867 2012-12-24 14:53:51 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: it means that only one branch has changed, basically
 868 2012-12-24 14:54:27 <Luke-Jr> if *anything* has changed on both sides, you need a merge instead of a fast-forward
 869 2012-12-24 14:54:37 <Luke-Jr> most of the time the merge is automatic and obvious
 870 2012-12-24 14:54:52 <stealth222> so if I clone, then the remote branch is updated, then I pull, that's not a fast-forward?
 871 2012-12-24 14:55:00 <stealth222> assuming I didn't change anything locally
 872 2012-12-24 14:55:13 <lianj> stealth222: fast forward is a type of merge
 873 2012-12-24 14:57:35 Zarutian has joined
 874 2012-12-24 15:03:41 <stealth222> I thought fast forward just moved the HEAD to a later commit on a single branch
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 879 2012-12-24 15:15:06 datagutt is now known as CHRISMAZU
 880 2012-12-24 15:15:15 <aipa> i can't believe gmaxwell hasn't been banned yet
 881 2012-12-24 15:15:18 CHRISMAZU is now known as CHRISMIZU
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 885 2012-12-24 15:28:06 <Guest123456789> aipa: Also, why do yo want gmaxwell banned???
 886 2012-12-24 15:28:53 <aipa> Guest123456789: you know why
 887 2012-12-24 15:29:17 <Guest123456789> aipa: why????
 888 2012-12-24 15:29:22 <Guest123456789> i dont know
 889 2012-12-24 15:29:33 <aipa> because of this: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=stamit
 890 2012-12-24 15:30:00 <aipa> and because of the trolling ceremony, some months ago. i am not the "troll"
 891 2012-12-24 15:30:19 <aipa> i am now the "troll" because of him and his pals
 892 2012-12-24 15:30:42 <aipa> can't trade because of him
 893 2012-12-24 15:31:36 <sipa> and you expect to make people sympathize with you by constantly spamming this channel?
 894 2012-12-24 15:32:03 <aipa> i can't answer this type of question, sipa
 895 2012-12-24 15:32:11 <aipa> i expect the rating to be removed
 896 2012-12-24 15:32:28 <Guest123456789> aipa: Also use #bitcoin-otc dont use #bitcoin-dev
 897 2012-12-24 15:32:40 <aipa> he has me banned from -otc
 898 2012-12-24 15:32:51 <Guest123456789> gmaxwell????
 899 2012-12-24 15:33:03 <aipa> yeah, he or someone
 900 2012-12-24 15:33:10 <aipa> he usually does this
 901 2012-12-24 15:34:17 <Guest123456789> aipa: You where banned by gribble
 902 2012-12-24 15:34:24 <aipa> gribble is a bot
 903 2012-12-24 15:34:31 <Guest123456789> So, no use of coming to #bitcoin-dev
 904 2012-12-24 15:35:00 <aipa> Guest123456789: you didn't know gribble is a bot?
 905 2012-12-24 15:35:06 <Guest123456789> I know
 906 2012-12-24 15:35:17 <Guest123456789> You get banned from gribble only if you troll
 907 2012-12-24 15:35:18 <aipa> gmaxwell used gribble before
 908 2012-12-24 15:35:41 <aipa> you get banned if you offend his gmaxwellness
 909 2012-12-24 15:35:54 <Guest123456789> AFAIK, i have never seem gribble ban anyone who did not troll
 910 2012-12-24 15:36:32 <MC1984> Guest123456789 dont feed the trolls please
 911 2012-12-24 15:36:41 <Guest123456789> MC1984: ok
 912 2012-12-24 15:36:45 <aipa> Guest123456789: it makes an exception for me
 913 2012-12-24 15:37:11 * Guest123456789 Ignores everything that is not about development
 914 2012-12-24 15:38:51 <aipa> MC1984: this is not funny
 915 2012-12-24 15:39:01 <aipa> this is not funny for me anymore
 916 2012-12-24 15:39:50 <aipa> i can play this shit with a friend, easily
 917 2012-12-24 15:50:02 <aipa> i don't want gmaxwell just banned. i want him jained
 918 2012-12-24 15:50:07 <aipa> *jailed
 919 2012-12-24 15:50:19 <aipa> i want him put into a cell
 920 2012-12-24 15:50:22 egecko has joined
 921 2012-12-24 15:50:26 <aipa> with cockroaches in it
 922 2012-12-24 15:50:29 freakazoid has joined
 923 2012-12-24 15:50:33 <aipa> make him hate himself
 924 2012-12-24 15:51:06 <aipa> isolate him socially
 925 2012-12-24 15:51:16 <aipa> because everybody knows what a "troll" he is
 926 2012-12-24 15:51:35 <aipa> has he got a wife? well i want him separated too
 927 2012-12-24 15:52:02 CHRISMIZU is now known as datagutt
 928 2012-12-24 15:52:05 <aipa> this is more than just money
 929 2012-12-24 15:52:23 <aipa> this is about your life being fucked up
 930 2012-12-24 15:53:26 owowo has joined
 931 2012-12-24 15:54:36 <aipa> i'm like the official fucking sucker now because of pricks like him
 932 2012-12-24 15:55:44 <aipa> did i tell you to screw yourself already, gmaxwell?
 933 2012-12-24 15:56:08 <aipa> "oh, i think you're being trolled" "don't feed the trolls!"
 934 2012-12-24 15:56:24 <aipa> YOU OWE ME, GMAXWELL
 935 2012-12-24 15:59:46 <aipa> i am not coming here to discuss development with you, gmaxwell, i am coming here to tell people what a piece of shit you are, and to stay away from you
 936 2012-12-24 16:00:00 <TD> there  doesn't seem to be any block explorer/web interface to current testnet
 937 2012-12-24 16:00:13 <TD> blockexplorer is stuck and blockchain.info doesn't support it
 938 2012-12-24 16:01:43 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 939 2012-12-24 16:02:16 <aipa> your use of the world is a privilege, gmaxwell, not a right
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 944 2012-12-24 16:10:35 <sipa> TD: except for search by address, you can use getblock and getrawtransaction for most BBE purposes
 945 2012-12-24 16:10:46 <TD> sipa: i'm trying to figure out gregs comments about testnet3
 946 2012-12-24 16:10:53 <TD> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L1088
 947 2012-12-24 16:11:01 <TD> my reading of the code is that the special rule does not apply on difficulty transition points
 948 2012-12-24 16:11:19 <TD> apparently my implementation differs from canonical.
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 950 2012-12-24 16:13:31 <TD> block 40320 is a transition point and has min difficulty
 951 2012-12-24 16:15:29 <sipa> iirc there was some bug, that when the block before the transition point isof min difficulty, the permanent difficultt gets reset to that
 952 2012-12-24 16:15:38 <TD> how does the bug work?
 953 2012-12-24 16:16:16 <sipa> never investigated it myself
 954 2012-12-24 16:21:40 <TD> oh
 955 2012-12-24 16:21:41 <TD> wow
 956 2012-12-24 16:23:07 <TD> i see the issue
 957 2012-12-24 16:23:18 <TD> my difficult target calculation logic doesn't match satoshis in a fairly major way
 958 2012-12-24 16:23:29 <TD> it doesn't make any difference because nBits is constant through a difficulty interval
 959 2012-12-24 16:23:40 <TD> but testnet3 breaks that revealing the difference
 960 2012-12-24 16:23:40 <TD> sigh
 961 2012-12-24 16:25:08 <sipa> yeah, fix for testnet4 i'm afraid :(
 962 2012-12-24 16:25:54 <TD> no, this isn't a bug in the c++
 963 2012-12-24 16:26:01 <TD> it was (effectively) a transcription error in my logic
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 965 2012-12-24 16:26:30 <TD> i was basing the new nBits on the value of pindexFirst, not pindexLast
 966 2012-12-24 16:26:55 <TD> they're always the same in prodnet because nBits isn't allowed to vary throughout the interval
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 971 2012-12-24 16:39:21 <topace> why cant we import/export private keys from the official client gui?
 972 2012-12-24 16:39:28 <topace> seems like somethign that should be included :p
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 974 2012-12-24 16:45:47 <jgarzik> topace: It's a nice feature, but must be done carefully to avoid users creating problems for themselves
 975 2012-12-24 16:46:02 <jgarzik> topace: it would be nice to have brainwallet and casascius-coin-import for example
 976 2012-12-24 16:46:47 <topace> yea... definitely an advanced feature, maybe do what others programs do, have an "advanced mode" that is off by default
 977 2012-12-24 16:48:28 <topace> i wanted to give my brothers a few bitcoins each for xmas
 978 2012-12-24 16:49:21 <topace> but dont really want to write a 2 page instruction sheet on how to redeem the private keys
 979 2012-12-24 16:51:15 <topace> any suggestions ?
 980 2012-12-24 16:53:40 <egecko> how about you create new wallets on thumb drives, allocate an address, and then send the btc to those address then give them the drives?
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 984 2012-12-24 16:56:39 <topace> just give them a thumbdrive with a wallet.dat on it ?
 985 2012-12-24 16:56:44 <topace> i guess that might work..
 986 2012-12-24 16:57:02 <topace> i kinda wanted to avoid doing a whole wallet, when really, i just want to give them a private key for a single bitcoin address
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 991 2012-12-24 17:05:30 <egecko> think of it as a private keep wrapped in a dat file.
 992 2012-12-24 17:05:44 <egecko> err keep/key
 993 2012-12-24 17:08:39 da2ce7_d has joined
 994 2012-12-24 17:09:44 <nanotube> topace: or better yet... just ask them for an address, and send bitcoins to it the old-fashioned way? :)
 995 2012-12-24 17:10:02 <topace> that wouldnt be much of a surprise
 996 2012-12-24 17:10:45 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 997 2012-12-24 17:11:09 <nanotube> the surprise is in the amount :)
 998 2012-12-24 17:11:12 egecko has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
 999 2012-12-24 17:11:30 <topace> well the amount is obviously 3.1337
1000 2012-12-24 17:11:33 <topace> :p
1001 2012-12-24 17:11:36 <nanotube> hehe
1002 2012-12-24 17:12:04 <nanotube> well see, it /could/ be 0.31337, or 31.337. where does that decimal point go? omg the suspense is killing me! :)
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1015 2012-12-24 17:54:43 <MC1984> that stamit guy is a nutter
1016 2012-12-24 18:07:14 maaku has joined
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1019 2012-12-24 18:22:10 <denisx> .d
1020 2012-12-24 18:29:07 <jgarzik> stamit keeps trying to blind-PM me
1021 2012-12-24 18:29:31 <jgarzik> last PM "my money, jgarzik"
1022 2012-12-24 18:29:39 * jgarzik needs to figure out how to ban PMs
1023 2012-12-24 18:30:26 <JWU42> jgarzik: ignore ?
1024 2012-12-24 18:31:28 <jgarzik> well, that solves the problem for one nick, not all of them
1025 2012-12-24 18:31:36 <jgarzik> ideally I would whitelist PMs
1026 2012-12-24 18:33:39 Hashdog has left ("PING 1356373217")
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1028 2012-12-24 18:34:50 <stealth222> can't you set user mode +R?
1029 2012-12-24 18:36:13 <stealth222> hmm, does freenode not have a blacklist?
1030 2012-12-24 18:38:20 PomeraniaMINEr has joined
1031 2012-12-24 18:38:24 <PomeraniaMINEr> yo
1032 2012-12-24 18:38:33 <PomeraniaMINEr> time for some minnig:D
1033 2012-12-24 18:39:35 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1034 2012-12-24 18:40:03 <etotheipi_> sipa: can yo utell me if this is correct?  each blkXXXXX.dat file will have about 128 MB of blk data... that block data is guaranteed to be continuous, and only whole blocks are written.  If a whole block won't fit in the remaining space in the blk file, a new blk file is started and that is the first block in it (i.e. no partial blk data at the end of a file)
1035 2012-12-24 18:41:53 freakazoid has joined
1036 2012-12-24 18:41:59 <stealth222> the file sizes and modification times seem to certainly suggest that, etotheipi_
1037 2012-12-24 18:47:11 <stealth222> and the end of the file looks padded with 0's
1038 2012-12-24 18:47:21 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1039 2012-12-24 18:48:18 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
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1042 2012-12-24 18:56:43 <stealth222> http://www.igvita.com/2012/02/06/sstable-and-log-structured-storage-leveldb/
1043 2012-12-24 19:00:08 denisx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1044 2012-12-24 19:01:10 <stealth222> not sure about not splitting blocks up between blk files, though
1045 2012-12-24 19:03:25 unassigned has quit (Quit: Yo!)
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1051 2012-12-24 19:20:11 <sipa> etotheipi_: more or less
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1057 2012-12-24 19:22:24 <sipa> blocks are never split over multiple files in any case
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1065 2012-12-24 20:46:34 Guest123456789 is now known as Guest12345678
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1073 2012-12-24 21:21:32 <Luke-Jr> anyone want to get an address collision?
1074 2012-12-24 21:22:00 <andytoshi> i'd like to see one
1075 2012-12-24 21:22:13 <Luke-Jr> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133122.0
1076 2012-12-24 21:22:32 <Luke-Jr> apparently generated using https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=76038.0
1077 2012-12-24 21:23:35 <stealth222> hmmm
1078 2012-12-24 21:24:05 <gmaxwell> crap another stuck ultraprune node.
1079 2012-12-24 21:24:16 <Luke-Jr> "The quality of this random source (and how it is used by the underlying software) is beyond the scope of this analysis." lol?
1080 2012-12-24 21:25:27 <gmaxwell> 2012-12-24T07:44:19 received block 000000000000009ef61d3258a9d199d3f9827f6b5976e6fb50bdcb744a79751b
1081 2012-12-24 21:25:30 <gmaxwell> 2012-12-24T07:44:19 Pre-allocating up to position 0x1000000 in blk00000.dat
1082 2012-12-24 21:25:32 <gmaxwell> 2012-12-24T07:44:19 ERROR: ConnectBlock() : inputs missing/spent
1083 2012-12-24 21:25:35 <gmaxwell> 2012-12-24T07:44:19 InvalidChainFound: invalid block=000000000000009ef61d3258a9d199d3f9827f6b5976e6fb50bdcb744a79751b
1084 2012-12-24 21:25:42 <Luke-Jr> :|
1085 2012-12-24 21:25:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that looks pretty ugly
1086 2012-12-24 21:27:22 <gmaxwell> Third time I've seen this— the other two times where on a node I was running out of disk space, and it was stuck after coming back up.
1087 2012-12-24 21:28:11 <gmaxwell> But this time it was a different node that wasn't being run out of space.. it was running fine and I shut it down to update it to the latest master + forrestv patch for testing and it was broken on the first block it recieved.
1088 2012-12-24 21:28:48 <gmaxwell> (about 9 minutes after startup)
1089 2012-12-24 21:28:57 LargoG has joined
1090 2012-12-24 21:29:00 <stealth222> has ripemd160 been broken, Luke-Jr?
1091 2012-12-24 21:29:04 <gmaxwell> it's like the database wasn't totally flushed at shutdown.
1092 2012-12-24 21:29:09 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: doubt it
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1096 2012-12-24 21:35:34 <stealth222> say you have n equiprobable outcomes in k independent trials. The probability that there are two trials that produce the same outcome is given by 1 - n! / [(n-k)! n^k], right?
1097 2012-12-24 21:35:44 <stealth222> (the birthday paradox)
1098 2012-12-24 21:37:44 <stealth222> so ripemd160 is 20 bytes, so n = 256^20
1099 2012-12-24 21:38:01 <stealth222> how many unique bitcoin addresses are there in the block chain?
1100 2012-12-24 21:38:15 <stealth222> around 8 million or so?
1101 2012-12-24 21:39:01 <andytoshi> i've never seen this analysis before
1102 2012-12-24 21:39:11 <andytoshi> 8 million sounds plausible
1103 2012-12-24 21:39:42 <andytoshi> roughly 40 new addresses per block on average
1104 2012-12-24 21:40:57 <stealth222> slightly over 8.5 million is what my database is telling me
1105 2012-12-24 21:40:58 <gmaxwell> stealth222: yea, about once every other month someone comes in concerned about that— but do the math and you'll see it doesn't matter.
1106 2012-12-24 21:41:41 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: see the real collision thread? :P
1107 2012-12-24 21:41:45 <andytoshi> stealth222 | (the birthday paradox)                                                                                                                 │ BlueMatt
1108 2012-12-24 21:41:52 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: hm?
1109 2012-12-24 21:42:00 <stealth222> so collisions are more likely to be caused by poor random number generators than anything else, I think
1110 2012-12-24 21:42:00 <andytoshi> stealth222, i don't think the "(n - k)!" should be in your equation
1111 2012-12-24 21:42:20 Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1112 2012-12-24 21:42:25 <stealth222> andytoshi, why not?
1113 2012-12-24 21:42:26 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: [21:08:50] <Luke-Jr> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133122.0
1114 2012-12-24 21:42:43 <andytoshi> i don't see why you put it in
1115 2012-12-24 21:42:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: this guy is finding 600+ BTC suddenly in his vanity address
1116 2012-12-24 21:42:45 Tritonio has joined
1117 2012-12-24 21:42:56 <stealth222> the first outcome can be anything, so 1. the second outcome can be any of (n-1)/n.
1118 2012-12-24 21:42:57 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: looking a lot like a collision due to poor random IMO
1119 2012-12-24 21:43:07 <gmaxwell> yea. hah "lol"
1120 2012-12-24 21:43:08 <stealth222> the next can be any of (n-2) out of n
1121 2012-12-24 21:43:09 <stealth222> etc...
1122 2012-12-24 21:43:15 <andytoshi> oh, facepalm
1123 2012-12-24 21:43:28 <gmaxwell> hat vanity generator?
1124 2012-12-24 21:43:37 <gmaxwell> if it was a JS one— JS sources of random are terribly bad.
1125 2012-12-24 21:43:38 <andytoshi> of course you divide by (n-k)! because you only choose k
1126 2012-12-24 21:43:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: Java, closed source
1127 2012-12-24 21:43:46 <gmaxwell> I caused a wikipedia outage once due to that.
1128 2012-12-24 21:44:17 <gmaxwell> (had some site JS that used JS rand to trigger loading an object and found that it was about 1000x more likely to be hit by IE users because of poor randomness)
1129 2012-12-24 21:44:26 <andytoshi> the vanity generator Luke-Jr linked to claimed "This application uses a java.security.SecureRandom instance as part of the key generation process. The quality of this random source (and how it is used by the underlying software) is beyond the scope of this analysis. If it is weak, it might produce duplicate keys, easily guessable keys, etc."
1130 2012-12-24 21:46:34 <gmaxwell> sounds like you could make a lot of money right now like this
1131 2012-12-24 21:47:09 abragin has joined
1132 2012-12-24 21:47:10 <gmaxwell> go through the chain and get every distinct 4 letter address prefix. run that tool to generate one vanity address for each.
1133 2012-12-24 21:47:13 <gmaxwell> Profit.
1134 2012-12-24 21:47:28 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: a lot of illicit money IMO
1135 2012-12-24 21:47:35 <andytoshi> yeah... even if you reduced the space from 2^160 to 2^30 or so
1136 2012-12-24 21:47:40 <andytoshi> people almost certainly wouldn't notice
1137 2012-12-24 21:47:51 <Luke-Jr> would make for a good precedent-setting lawsuit tho…
1138 2012-12-24 21:48:17 <andytoshi> yeah, who wants to try it and who wants to sue?
1139 2012-12-24 21:48:47 <stealth222> only target addresses with large balances, though :)
1140 2012-12-24 21:49:04 <Luke-Jr> we could pull a Roe v Wade - fabricate the entire basis of the lawsuit just to set a precedent <.<
1141 2012-12-24 21:49:11 <andytoshi> i suppose people using strange vanitygen programs wouldn't have large balances..
1142 2012-12-24 21:49:13 <gmaxwell> why the hell are people using a closed source vanity generator? (perhaps answered in thread? I'm cooking right now so haven't looked)
1143 2012-12-24 21:49:21 <andytoshi> they'd spend it all on lotteries
1144 2012-12-24 21:49:30 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no kidding, I wouldn't run it even to try to collide
1145 2012-12-24 21:50:40 <andytoshi> the thread doesn't seem to have anybody with common sense
1146 2012-12-24 21:50:45 <andytoshi> though i've only read the first page
1147 2012-12-24 21:51:17 <andytoshi> a lot of "oh, thanks! the bitcoin community really needs your coding prowess, mister knows-java-and-doesn't-understand-crypto"
1148 2012-12-24 21:52:15 <stealth222> 1aM9FxKHzqNZfnnBvv7BgZ6PSzaN7zfNQ is a vanity address?!?!
1149 2012-12-24 21:52:18 <Luke-Jr> lol
1150 2012-12-24 21:53:23 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: one thing I've found remarkable is how often my "hey, your thing isn't secure— here is why" has been rebuffed with "YOU JUST HATE FREEDOM
1151 2012-12-24 21:53:27 <gmaxwell> " :P
1152 2012-12-24 21:53:59 <Luke-Jr> lol
1153 2012-12-24 21:54:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: get my PM about the Magazine? :P
1154 2012-12-24 21:54:22 <andytoshi> it's spooky...these guys are saying things like "i really see why you made this"
1155 2012-12-24 21:54:30 <andytoshi> "I've half-heartedly tried to get vanitygen to work, but gave up!"
1156 2012-12-24 21:54:45 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: to be fair, I couldn't get OCLvanitygen to work <.<
1157 2012-12-24 21:55:24 <andytoshi> even straight vanitygen required a bunch of makefile hacking for me..it's not easy, i suppose
1158 2012-12-24 21:55:50 <gmaxwell> huh. I thought it was trivial to get working.
1159 2012-12-24 21:55:57 <andytoshi> oh, nvr mind, i just needed to put the right SSL paths in
1160 2012-12-24 21:56:00 <andytoshi> that was my fault entirely
1161 2012-12-24 21:56:42 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I did, but I'm just responding to it with depression. There is some stupid I can't cure.
1162 2012-12-24 21:57:25 <Luke-Jr> >_<
1163 2012-12-24 21:57:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: hopefully they'll take out the 2nd (redundant) article, but given the timeframe my wife had, they probably don't have time to replace it
1164 2012-12-24 21:58:36 <gmaxwell> when it comes down to it— when someone wants to do something stupid they really won't be convinced by anything short of evidence of someone else getting killed doing it. :P
1165 2012-12-24 21:59:07 <stealth222> and even then, gmaxwell
1166 2012-12-24 21:59:10 <gmaxwell> so perhaps we need a lot of people to get robbed or funds lost with poor key management before joe user will really believe that its a bad idea.
1167 2012-12-24 21:59:14 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yeah, why I was *slightly* hoping TheButterZone's collision was brainwallet-related <.<
1168 2012-12-24 21:59:17 <andytoshi> ugh, this vanity generator author is awful
1169 2012-12-24 21:59:19 <andytoshi> "Running software in-browser also tends to scare away Bitcoin users, so downloading an application is desirable. (You can even run it on an offline computer if you're really paranoid.)"
1170 2012-12-24 21:59:19 <Luke-Jr> with a "reasonably secure" input
1171 2012-12-24 21:59:32 <andytoshi> i wonder if i could make some outputs with negative BTC to send to him..
1172 2012-12-24 22:00:08 <stealth222> so here's another way to steal some bitcoins - distribute a rigged RNG in your vanitygen :)
1173 2012-12-24 22:00:18 <gmaxwell> at the end of the day— security is a lemon market... perhaps this will be bitcoin's downfall.
1174 2012-12-24 22:00:35 <gmaxwell> stealth222: people will run a closed source vanity gen, just take their wallet files!
1175 2012-12-24 22:00:52 <Luke-Jr> lol
1176 2012-12-24 22:01:18 <Luke-Jr> you can tell a true nerd when they're more interested in the complex ways of exploitation than the obvious ones XD
1177 2012-12-24 22:01:26 <stealth222> lol
1178 2012-12-24 22:01:35 <gmaxwell> haha
1179 2012-12-24 22:02:03 <stealth222> well, a rigged RNG has more plausible deniability
1180 2012-12-24 22:02:11 <gmaxwell> "oh! by chooing random numbers such that multiplication under the curve yields.." "no, I just copied the file"
1181 2012-12-24 22:02:41 <gmaxwell> stealth222: people will run closed source vanity generators by anonymous parties that posted to seedy forums!
1182 2012-12-24 22:12:05 * andytoshi is actually reading the vanitygen source after this discussion
1183 2012-12-24 22:12:09 <andytoshi> this is really nifty
1184 2012-12-24 22:12:34 <andytoshi> though, all easy points of compromise are hidden away in openssl calls
1185 2012-12-24 22:13:53 <stealth222> I would have thought that by now an RNG that operates at the quantum level would be standard equipment in all computers
1186 2012-12-24 22:13:57 <stealth222> say, thermal noise
1187 2012-12-24 22:14:23 <stealth222> or background radiation
1188 2012-12-24 22:14:47 <stealth222> or even radioactive decay
1189 2012-12-24 22:14:55 <stealth222> heck, smoke detectors contain americium
1190 2012-12-24 22:15:15 <stealth222> a true entropy source
1191 2012-12-24 22:15:26 <stealth222> or as theoretically true as possible
1192 2012-12-24 22:15:52 <andytoshi> i think all intel procs have such a thing nowadays
1193 2012-12-24 22:15:59 <stealth222> they do?
1194 2012-12-24 22:16:14 <stealth222> then why is RNG seeding still such an issue?
1195 2012-12-24 22:17:26 <andytoshi> well, a lot of machines are old, handheld devices tend not to have hardware RNG's
1196 2012-12-24 22:17:32 <andytoshi> because they use $2 SoC's
1197 2012-12-24 22:17:50 <andytoshi> and i'm sure there's also malicious behavior out there
1198 2012-12-24 22:18:09 <stealth222> I mean, hardware RNGs do exist and there's a market for them...but I don't think it's standard equipment in a new PC
1199 2012-12-24 22:18:41 <stealth222> unless you work at a bank or in the NSA
1200 2012-12-24 22:20:07 <stealth222> most crypto is implemented using software PRNGs using some external entropy source
1201 2012-12-24 22:20:12 ovidiusoft has quit (Quit: leaving)
1202 2012-12-24 22:20:24 <stealth222> and the external entropy sources are usually pretty weak by comparison to hardware RNGs
1203 2012-12-24 22:20:31 <andytoshi> well, if you've got a desktop, your wifi and keyboard and mouse contribute to entropy
1204 2012-12-24 22:20:43 <andytoshi> it's not great, but it's not awful either if you don't need too much
1205 2012-12-24 22:21:09 <stealth222> but then the quality of the RNG is difficult to really assess
1206 2012-12-24 22:21:28 denisx has joined
1207 2012-12-24 22:21:29 <andytoshi> yeah, there's constant arguments about that in the linux kernel world
1208 2012-12-24 22:21:29 <stealth222> whereas with a hardware RNG, you could approach theoretical maximal entropy
1209 2012-12-24 22:21:35 <andytoshi> because the kernel -does- try to assess it
1210 2012-12-24 22:23:10 <stealth222> but any implementation still could have weaknesses that the theory doesn't address
1211 2012-12-24 22:23:25 <andytoshi> that's certainly true
1212 2012-12-24 22:23:58 <andytoshi> and fwiw, the "theoretical maximal entropy" could only be obtained by evaporating a black hole :)
1213 2012-12-24 22:24:05 Z0rZ0rZ0r1 has quit (Quit: Wheeeee)
1214 2012-12-24 22:24:56 t7 has joined
1215 2012-12-24 22:25:00 <stealth222> the point is to make it as difficult as possible for an outside observer to correlate the outcomes of one measurement with the outcomes of another measurement
1216 2012-12-24 22:25:09 <andytoshi> yeah, exactly
1217 2012-12-24 22:25:20 <andytoshi> and imho, mouse movements are good enough for that for desktop users
1218 2012-12-24 22:25:58 <andytoshi> i do wish there was more hardware out there, and i think it's getting better
1219 2012-12-24 22:26:11 <stealth222> mouse movements, if nothing else, are still a relatively slow source of entropy
1220 2012-12-24 22:26:28 <andytoshi> yeah, if you want multiple Mb or Gb per sec, it's awful
1221 2012-12-24 22:26:36 <andytoshi> do "cat /dev/random" and move your mouse around
1222 2012-12-24 22:26:40 <andytoshi> it's hilariously slow
1223 2012-12-24 22:26:53 <andytoshi> s/awful/useless
1224 2012-12-24 22:29:47 <stealth222> Intel's RNG uses thermal noise
1225 2012-12-24 22:29:48 denisx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1226 2012-12-24 22:29:52 denisx_ has joined
1227 2012-12-24 22:31:44 <stealth222> it uses two oscillators, one much faster than the other. and thermal noise modulates the frequency of the slower one. measurement of the state of the higher frequency oscillator is edge-triggered by the slower oscillator
1228 2012-12-24 22:32:42 <stealth222> bit sequences generated by this process are then fed to SHA1
1229 2012-12-24 22:33:35 <stealth222> in order to destroy any remaining statistical structure/bias
1230 2012-12-24 22:35:51 <andytoshi> that sounds cool, but i really don't know the physics involved here
1231 2012-12-24 22:36:02 abragin has left ()
1232 2012-12-24 22:36:07 <stealth222> you could use, say, a thermistor
1233 2012-12-24 22:36:23 <stealth222> to modulate an oscillator
1234 2012-12-24 22:36:37 maaku has joined
1235 2012-12-24 22:36:49 <stealth222> minute local changes in temperature have drastic effects on the outcome
1236 2012-12-24 22:37:50 <stealth222> and since things like convection currents are subject to serious chaos, it is practically impossible to predict or retrodict the temperature in a small region of space by measuring distant temperatures
1237 2012-12-24 22:37:56 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1238 2012-12-24 22:38:22 <stealth222> but such a system could still have leakage from EM radiation
1239 2012-12-24 22:38:53 TD has joined
1240 2012-12-24 22:39:56 <stealth222> as long as the noise from other components (say, fans and power supplies) is much greater than the signal, it's probably not much of an issue
1241 2012-12-24 22:40:02 <stealth222> presumably this is a very low-power device anyhow
1242 2012-12-24 22:40:45 <stealth222> there are probably pretty decent ways to shield it, too
1243 2012-12-24 22:41:02 zooko has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1244 2012-12-24 22:41:23 <stealth222> sounds like a pretty simple and relatively inexpensive circuit, actually
1245 2012-12-24 22:41:45 <stealth222> heck, I might even build myself one :p
1246 2012-12-24 22:43:34 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
1247 2012-12-24 22:52:44 <BlueMatt> TD: pushed bitcoinj bloom filter implementation
1248 2012-12-24 22:52:53 <TD> nice!!
1249 2012-12-24 22:52:57 <TD> thanks for the xmas prezzie :)
1250 2012-12-24 22:53:05 <TD> how are things going?
1251 2012-12-24 22:53:20 <BlueMatt> TD: havent tested it real-world yet, but there is a test case which does simulated network download, so it appears to work
1252 2012-12-24 22:53:26 <TD> ok
1253 2012-12-24 22:53:40 <TD> i think both sides are done now, right? so connecting them together should be straightforward
1254 2012-12-24 22:53:56 <BlueMatt> yes
1255 2012-12-24 22:54:10 <BlueMatt> in theory, it should just work...Ill probably get around to testing it later tonight
1256 2012-12-24 22:54:20 <TD> spiffy. i'm making progress on peer ordering, so we can make PeerGroup always pick peers that support bloom filtering
1257 2012-12-24 22:54:26 <TD> (assuming they have reasonable ping times etc)
1258 2012-12-24 22:54:32 <BlueMatt> nice
1259 2012-12-24 22:55:16 <BlueMatt> anywhoo...its christmas eve, gotta go...later :)
1260 2012-12-24 22:55:43 <TD> enjoy :)
1261 2012-12-24 22:57:59 <gmaxwell> stealth222: I'm generally pretty skeptical about hardware rngs.. there are so many ways for them to fail I wouldn't dare use one without front ending it with a respected cryptographic transform... and once you're doing that the randonness source might as well be a counter.
1262 2012-12-24 22:59:13 <gmaxwell> intel's integrated rng in their latest stuff actually runs AES on the output (well uses it to constantly reseed an AES stream cipher)— so you can't easily tell if your hardware has gone determinstic. (though if you trust intel they claim to have addressed all that, you hope)
1263 2012-12-24 23:00:44 <stealth222> in principle, you could analyze the raw stream
1264 2012-12-24 23:01:06 sgornick has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1265 2012-12-24 23:01:33 <stealth222> run certain tests on it and recalibrate if necessary
1266 2012-12-24 23:01:44 <gmaxwell> stealth222: it's quite hard to analyze a stream for randomness, unless you already have a good handle on the failure modes and know exactly how its being processed.
1267 2012-12-24 23:02:20 <gmaxwell> so the fact that _you_ can't tell that it's not very random doesn't mean an attacker who knows a little more than you about the hardware design can't exploit the heck out of it.
1268 2012-12-24 23:02:24 <stealth222> I'd be more afraid of potential sidechannel leakages
1269 2012-12-24 23:03:08 <gmaxwell> or sidechannel influences. Does your RNG become biased in some way at some times of the day due to tempature or electrial noise? may be hard to tell.
1270 2012-12-24 23:03:20 <gmaxwell> temperature*
1271 2012-12-24 23:04:08 <stealth222> although if you have two oscillators and one is orders of magnitude higher frequency than the other, it's hard to imagine there being any sort of predictable pattern
1272 2012-12-24 23:05:24 <stealth222> even if the two oscillators are at constant frequencies but an irrational large multiple
1273 2012-12-24 23:05:39 <gmaxwell> uh. thats utterly predictable then.
1274 2012-12-24 23:05:48 <stealth222> it is if you know the ratio
1275 2012-12-24 23:05:54 <gmaxwell> (effectively that sounds like an LCG)
1276 2012-12-24 23:06:55 <gmaxwell> and I can recover an LCG's parameters from any four consecutive outputs.  I mean, I'm not debating the actual hardware design. I'm sure they did the right thing. But it isn't easy and things can have subtle failure modes.
1277 2012-12-24 23:08:03 zooko has joined
1278 2012-12-24 23:08:43 <gmaxwell> hm.
1279 2012-12-24 23:08:57 <gmaxwell> the aformented stuck node... restarting with reindex seems to have left it at blocks -1
1280 2012-12-24 23:09:42 <gmaxwell> 2012-12-24T21:16:14 Loading addresses...
1281 2012-12-24 23:09:42 <gmaxwell> 2012-12-24T21:16:14 Reindexing block file blk00000.dat...
1282 2012-12-24 23:09:42 <gmaxwell> 2012-12-24T21:16:14 ProcessBlock: ORPHAN BLOCK, prev=00000000000003d47768650f3d2ae6d3210bfc0f50c0e3a9ec96e5e3e357bbe9
1283 2012-12-24 23:10:51 <gmaxwell> oh man.
1284 2012-12-24 23:10:54 <gmaxwell> lo
1285 2012-12-24 23:10:54 <gmaxwell> l
1286 2012-12-24 23:11:02 <gmaxwell> this isn't entirely bitcoin's fault.
1287 2012-12-24 23:11:13 <stealth222> I wish I understood the problem, gmaxwell :)
1288 2012-12-24 23:12:37 dvide has joined
1289 2012-12-24 23:13:19 <stealth222> why would the node get stuck? shouldn
1290 2012-12-24 23:13:22 <gmaxwell> This bitcoin node is running in /tmp... which has always been a fine thing for a test node.. well with the ultraprune changes there are now a bunch of files that don't change anymore and fedora has a script the deletes random files from /tmp when they get 'too old'.
1291 2012-12-24 23:13:40 <stealth222> oh...hmmm
1292 2012-12-24 23:13:47 <TD> fail
1293 2012-12-24 23:13:58 <TD> good to know it's not our code though
1294 2012-12-24 23:14:25 <stealth222> so if you just run it in a different directory everything is fine?
1295 2012-12-24 23:15:02 <gmaxwell> Sure. or turn off this braindamaged automation.
1296 2012-12-24 23:15:20 <gmaxwell> s'ok, it did make me find a real bug too.
1297 2012-12-24 23:15:31 <gmaxwell> (or free disk space checking stuff is broken at the moment)
1298 2012-12-24 23:15:54 <TD> leveldb + low disk space == pain
1299 2012-12-24 23:16:00 <TD> given that its disk usage fluctuates quite a bit
1300 2012-12-24 23:16:50 bitlane has joined
1301 2012-12-24 23:17:36 <bitlane> Okay guys
1302 2012-12-24 23:17:40 <bitlane> got a surprise for you
1303 2012-12-24 23:17:52 <bitlane> Bought the latest version of satan miner last night
1304 2012-12-24 23:18:00 <bitlane> which is the bitcoin miner which is faster than the rest
1305 2012-12-24 23:18:07 <bitlane> cost me 5 btc
1306 2012-12-24 23:18:11 <bitlane> well heres the link
1307 2012-12-24 23:19:18 <gmaxwell> bitlane: perhaps we're not interested in your wallet stealer? :P
1308 2012-12-24 23:19:31 <bitlane> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/73754698/satan.miner.v1.4.exe
1309 2012-12-24 23:19:33 <bitlane> enjoy
1310 2012-12-24 23:19:41 sgornick has joined
1311 2012-12-24 23:19:45 <TD> odd
1312 2012-12-24 23:19:46 <bitlane> Merry Christmas :)
1313 2012-12-24 23:19:52 <TD> merry christmas :)
1314 2012-12-24 23:20:29 <andytoshi> bitlane: awesome, i've been running "all the rest", five at a time, and cycling them
1315 2012-12-24 23:20:36 <andytoshi> this will save me tons of effort
1316 2012-12-24 23:20:41 <bitlane> super
1317 2012-12-24 23:20:48 <bitlane> its based on super cookies I'm told
1318 2012-12-24 23:20:51 <bitlane> and decryption
1319 2012-12-24 23:20:56 <bitlane> theres a forum link somewhere
1320 2012-12-24 23:20:58 <bitlane> but I can't find it
1321 2012-12-24 23:21:18 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1322 2012-12-24 23:22:13 <andytoshi> that's right, i dunno why everyone uses regular cookies
1323 2012-12-24 23:22:22 rdymac has joined
1324 2012-12-24 23:22:35 <bitlane> crazy huh?
1325 2012-12-24 23:22:40 <bitlane> either way
1326 2012-12-24 23:22:44 <bitlane> its should work out pretty cool
1327 2012-12-24 23:23:24 osmosis has joined
1328 2012-12-24 23:23:57 <bitlane> The link is good for 24 hours I'm told
1329 2012-12-24 23:24:09 <bitlane> then I'll have to wait until v1.5 is released
1330 2012-12-24 23:24:20 <andytoshi> it says "This program cannot be run in DOS mode"
1331 2012-12-24 23:24:27 <bitlane> eh
1332 2012-12-24 23:24:28 <andytoshi> is this one of your funny windows apps?
1333 2012-12-24 23:24:39 <bitlane> its supposed to run in the background
1334 2012-12-24 23:24:44 <bitlane> an excelerate mining speed
1335 2012-12-24 23:24:46 <bitlane> and whatnot
1336 2012-12-24 23:24:50 <bitlane> I'm not that technical
1337 2012-12-24 23:25:25 JDuke128 has joined
1338 2012-12-24 23:25:37 <bitlane> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/73754698/satan.miner.v1.4.exe
1339 2012-12-24 23:25:40 <bitlane> thats the link again
1340 2012-12-24 23:25:47 <andytoshi> please don't post it again
1341 2012-12-24 23:25:56 <bitlane> why?
1342 2012-12-24 23:26:22 <andytoshi> because it's obviously malicious, i'm just screwing with you
1343 2012-12-24 23:26:38 <bitlane> okay..
1344 2012-12-24 23:26:38 <andytoshi> one moment, i'm booting up a VM to try it
1345 2012-12-24 23:26:46 zooko has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1346 2012-12-24 23:27:33 <bitlane> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/73754698/satan.miner.v1.4.exe
1347 2012-12-24 23:27:46 <bitlane> satan miner..
1348 2012-12-24 23:27:50 <bitlane> the best miner there is
1349 2012-12-24 23:28:02 <bitlane> is not malicious
1350 2012-12-24 23:28:04 <bitlane> at all
1351 2012-12-24 23:28:05 <bitlane> sorry
1352 2012-12-24 23:28:23 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1353 2012-12-24 23:28:23 <bitlane> its for the kids!
1354 2012-12-24 23:29:37 ielo has joined
1355 2012-12-24 23:30:52 <bitlane> heres the link one last time
1356 2012-12-24 23:30:57 <bitlane> be sure to download this guys
1357 2012-12-24 23:31:00 ielo is now known as lumos
1358 2012-12-24 23:31:01 <bitlane> its all the rage!
1359 2012-12-24 23:31:06 <bitlane> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/73754698/satan.miner.v1.4.exe
1360 2012-12-24 23:31:06 <stealth222> lol
1361 2012-12-24 23:31:11 lumos has left ("Leaving")
1362 2012-12-24 23:31:25 <andytoshi> haha, NULL dereference right off the bat
1363 2012-12-24 23:31:34 <andytoshi> in the main function no less
1364 2012-12-24 23:31:44 <bitlane> oh well
1365 2012-12-24 23:31:47 <bitlane> I'm outta here
1366 2012-12-24 23:31:49 <bitlane> peace
1367 2012-12-24 23:31:50 bitlane has left ()
1368 2012-12-24 23:31:53 <lianj> thanks for the crapware
1369 2012-12-24 23:32:27 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: welcome to being 0wned?
1370 2012-12-24 23:32:44 <stealth222> I hope you were running it in a sandboxed environment :)
1371 2012-12-24 23:32:47 <andytoshi> oh, it doesn't crash if you give it a command-line argument..
1372 2012-12-24 23:32:49 <andytoshi> (i am)
1373 2012-12-24 23:32:53 <andytoshi> don't try this at home, kids
1374 2012-12-24 23:32:59 <SomeoneWeird> lol.
1375 2012-12-24 23:33:06 <SomeoneWeird> <bitlane> is not malicious
1376 2012-12-24 23:33:06 <SomeoneWeird> <bitlane> at all
1377 2012-12-24 23:33:08 <gmaxwell> seriously, I'd put a couple coin on that being a wallet stealer. :P
1378 2012-12-24 23:33:09 <SomeoneWeird> MHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
1379 2012-12-24 23:33:30 <andytoshi> it opens up a port and just starts polling..
1380 2012-12-24 23:33:35 <SomeoneWeird> rat
1381 2012-12-24 23:33:39 <stealth222> lol
1382 2012-12-24 23:33:44 <andytoshi> or rather, running select() over and over
1383 2012-12-24 23:35:30 <andytoshi> k, it looked in a:, b:, c:, ... to z:, read all the files in /tmp and its current directory
1384 2012-12-24 23:35:39 <stealth222> hah
1385 2012-12-24 23:35:41 <andytoshi> dropped something called "mcfartietray.exe" in c:/windows
1386 2012-12-24 23:36:58 Impaler has joined
1387 2012-12-24 23:37:41 <gmaxwell> For future reference, fedora's systemd has a tmpcleanup service hidden in it called 'systemd-tmpfiles-clean.timer' that runs daily and nukes things at random from /tmp
1388 2012-12-24 23:38:08 <andytoshi> thanks gmaxwell, i was wondering how /tmp worked
1389 2012-12-24 23:38:12 <andytoshi> seemed very mysterious
1390 2012-12-24 23:39:05 <lianj> gmaxwell: not at random
1391 2012-12-24 23:39:07 <gmaxwell> There is also a program called tmpwatch that many people have installed on fedora (though I'd already removed it!) that does the same thing. It's invoked out of /etc/cron.daily/  So you need to get rid of both of them if you don't want tmp to be cleaned up for you.
1392 2012-12-24 23:39:27 <gmaxwell> lianj: seems like random in the context of bitcoin.. since it got like .. only half the blk files on this node.
1393 2012-12-24 23:40:12 <andytoshi> for reference, that satan miner reads a ton of files, pokes at imm32.dll a whole bunch, spawns a background process "mcfartietray.exe" which polls every quarter second or so
1394 2012-12-24 23:40:49 <gmaxwell> https://www.google.com/search?q=mcfartietray.exe
1395 2012-12-24 23:41:17 <stealth222> mcfartietray.exe is apparently a well-known piece of malware
1396 2012-12-24 23:41:26 <lianj> gmaxwell: only untouched files at an age defined in  /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/*
1397 2012-12-24 23:41:37 <lianj> but yea, its crazy
1398 2012-12-24 23:43:01 <gmaxwell> lianj: the fact that it duplicated tmpwatch was rather confusing to me!
1399 2012-12-24 23:45:01 andytoshi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1400 2012-12-24 23:46:08 B0g4r7 has joined
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1402 2012-12-24 23:46:23 B0g4r7 has joined
1403 2012-12-24 23:47:14 <lianj> gmaxwell: i disabled the service anyway. often use /tmp for draft stuff
1404 2012-12-24 23:47:47 zooko has joined
1405 2012-12-24 23:47:48 <lianj> and yes, it was annoying when i first noticed systemd did this :D
1406 2012-12-24 23:49:15 MiningBuddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1407 2012-12-24 23:49:22 MiningBuddy has joined
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1409 2012-12-24 23:49:22 MiningBuddy has joined
1410 2012-12-24 23:49:49 <sipa> merry christmas!
1411 2012-12-24 23:49:54 <sipa> long discussion here
1412 2012-12-24 23:51:25 <sipa> gmaxwell: wow, you sure find problems... stuck ultraprune nodes, deadlocks in the parallel code, ...
1413 2012-12-24 23:51:33 <sipa> i've seen neither :(
1414 2012-12-24 23:51:47 andytoshi has joined
1415 2012-12-24 23:52:27 bong has joined
1416 2012-12-24 23:52:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: this latest stuck node was my own problem: running a node in /tmp and some helpful system task decided to delete half the block files.
1417 2012-12-24 23:52:47 <sipa> ha, ok
1418 2012-12-24 23:53:05 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1419 2012-12-24 23:53:20 <gmaxwell> I guess it's worth noting that deleting a bunch of files results in it just getting stuck without obvious cause.
1420 2012-12-24 23:53:54 <sipa> well, if anything it should be caught be the coindb-check mechanism that isn't implemented yet :)
1421 2012-12-24 23:53:59 <Luke-Jr> lol, that satan miner link doesn't work; dropbox apparently doesn't do https
1422 2012-12-24 23:54:18 <Luke-Jr> no surprise an infamous scammer+troll (bitlane) distributes malware tho
1423 2012-12-24 23:55:29 <gmaxwell> I'm just glad he distributed it here rather than elsewhere.. this channel probably his the least vulnerable audience for that of any on freenode.
1424 2012-12-24 23:55:41 <Luke-Jr> no kidding
1425 2012-12-24 23:55:51 <Luke-Jr> wonder if we should preemptively warn other channels
1426 2012-12-24 23:55:59 <gmaxwell> I went and warned -otc.
1427 2012-12-24 23:56:15 eroot has joined
1428 2012-12-24 23:56:18 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1429 2012-12-24 23:57:32 <gmaxwell> and -mining, and you got #bitcoin. Bases covered, I guess. No mention of 'satan miner' on the forum. Although bitlane (used to?) frequents the btce chat, and it's full of fools, so I expect they're all owned up now.
1430 2012-12-24 23:57:49 <Luke-Jr> LOL
1431 2012-12-24 23:57:53 <Luke-Jr> true
1432 2012-12-24 23:57:57 <sipa> !false
1433 2012-12-24 23:57:58 <gribble> I do not know about 'false', but I do know about these similar topics: 'faucet', 'faq'
1434 2012-12-24 23:58:09 <sipa> haha
1435 2012-12-24 23:58:17 <gmaxwell> !faucet
1436 2012-12-24 23:58:18 <gribble> Get some free bitcoins to play with at https://freebitcoins.appspot.com/
1437 2012-12-24 23:59:07 <Luke-Jr> hmm, why doesn't Dropbox have an easy takedown for malware?