1 2012-12-25 00:00:19 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: because they don't care?
  2 2012-12-25 00:01:03 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I guess the socially responsible option is to file a knowingly false DMCA request. :-/
  3 2012-12-25 00:01:24 <andytoshi> haha
  4 2012-12-25 00:01:37 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: pretty sure that's perjury
  5 2012-12-25 00:01:44 <andytoshi> haha
  6 2012-12-25 00:01:57 * andytoshi isn't actually laughing. this is awful
  7 2012-12-25 00:01:57 rdymac has joined
  8 2012-12-25 00:02:21 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I suppose it might not be if you construct an _invalid_ DMCA request... as most sites actually still act on improperly formed ones.
  9 2012-12-25 00:02:42 <pigeons> someone actually ran it?
 10 2012-12-25 00:02:43 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: you're still swearing by it, no?
 11 2012-12-25 00:02:49 skeledrew has joined
 12 2012-12-25 00:02:55 <Luke-Jr> pigeons: andytoshi did some kind of analysis
 13 2012-12-25 00:02:57 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: so don't swear by it.
 14 2012-12-25 00:03:05 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that's part of the DMCA
 15 2012-12-25 00:03:25 <pigeons> hence improperly formed
 16 2012-12-25 00:03:35 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it is— the way the law is constructed they must honor the request so long as it include a number of things, including a statement that you swear by it.  So just don't do that.
 17 2012-12-25 00:03:59 <andytoshi> pigeons, i ran it in a VM under wine under strace
 18 2012-12-25 00:03:59 <gmaxwell> They're not obligated to do anything when its improperly formed, but most places still will.
 19 2012-12-25 00:04:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'd expect the form to do swear-by-clicking-submit
 20 2012-12-25 00:04:39 <andytoshi> it appears to be a container for the known "mcfartietray.exe" malware
 21 2012-12-25 00:04:46 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: so send an email to a vaguely proper looking place. (also technically: they only need to respond to snail mail sent to the address registered with the copyright office)
 22 2012-12-25 00:04:55 <MC1984> what is satan miner
 23 2012-12-25 00:05:14 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: malware
 24 2012-12-25 00:05:15 <sipa> MC1984: ignore it; it doesn't do more than 666 MH/s
 25 2012-12-25 00:05:22 <MC1984> hue
 26 2012-12-25 00:05:27 <MC1984> oh its botnet shit
 27 2012-12-25 00:06:01 <MC1984> are dell laptops bad
 28 2012-12-25 00:06:01 <gmaxwell> Here is their actual designated agent filing: http://www.copyright.gov/onlinesp/agents/d/drop_box.pdf
 29 2012-12-25 00:06:02 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: bitlane's hue is pretty cloudy
 30 2012-12-25 00:06:21 <gmaxwell> So I'd suggest you just send a poorly formed takedown to copyright@dropbox.com and perhaps they'll honor it.
 31 2012-12-25 00:06:50 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I already emailed that address a few mins ago, with a short note that it's a virus
 32 2012-12-25 00:06:58 <gmaxwell> fair enough.
 33 2012-12-25 00:07:01 maaku has joined
 34 2012-12-25 00:07:21 <sipa> just ask someone to put something you actually have copyright on, on their dropbox
 35 2012-12-25 00:07:32 <sipa> and send a fully legel DMCA takedown request :p
 36 2012-12-25 00:07:44 <gmaxwell> such a stupid system.. anyone can just lie and claim copyright infringement and they'll pull it with a quickness... but a file that would fail a @#$@ AV test... no way, can't take that down.
 37 2012-12-25 00:07:49 <pigeons> nobody keeps rfc2142 abuse@ mailboxes anymore
 38 2012-12-25 00:08:09 <gmaxwell> then again, it doesn't matter much, he'll just host it someplace else. and as far as I know that particular link is not yet widely circulated.
 39 2012-12-25 00:08:12 <Luke-Jr> pigeons: I think I do
 40 2012-12-25 00:08:23 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: IRC logs, at least
 41 2012-12-25 00:08:44 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, but at least in the logs here I called it malware before he even got the link out.
 42 2012-12-25 00:08:46 <pigeons> try noreply@dropbox.com
 43 2012-12-25 00:08:51 <MC1984> false dMCA are filed by the millions every day
 44 2012-12-25 00:08:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: the point being, to take it down BEFORE it gets widely circulated ;)
 45 2012-12-25 00:08:55 <gmaxwell> I should have probably kickbanned him at that point.
 46 2012-12-25 00:08:57 <MC1984> guess who by
 47 2012-12-25 00:09:04 <Luke-Jr> pigeons: …
 48 2012-12-25 00:09:18 <sipa> pigeons: haha
 49 2012-12-25 00:09:19 <MC1984> they say because its automated its not perjury, or somthing
 50 2012-12-25 00:09:43 bitlane has joined
 51 2012-12-25 00:09:44 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: then it's also not valid
 52 2012-12-25 00:09:48 <Luke-Jr> bitlane: hey scammer
 53 2012-12-25 00:09:59 <bitlane> just got the latest version of satan miner
 54 2012-12-25 00:10:04 <bitlane> free update!
 55 2012-12-25 00:10:06 <bitlane> heres the link
 56 2012-12-25 00:10:07 <Luke-Jr> bitlane: yeah, I got 1.4
 57 2012-12-25 00:10:07 <gmaxwell> ... is he automated?
 58 2012-12-25 00:10:13 <MC1984> well the MPAA and friends file ludicrous DMCA all day every day and never get done for perjury
 59 2012-12-25 00:10:14 <Luke-Jr> bitlane: is there a new one already?
 60 2012-12-25 00:10:27 <sipa> bitlane: does it do 666 MH/s?
 61 2012-12-25 00:10:59 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: MPAA is not an entity in this context
 62 2012-12-25 00:11:03 <bitlane> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/73754698/satan.miner.v1.5.rarhttp
 63 2012-12-25 00:11:03 <gmaxwell> bitlane: how'd you get rid of the scammertag on bitcointalk?
 64 2012-12-25 00:11:09 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: he did? :o
 65 2012-12-25 00:11:16 <Luke-Jr> bitlane: lol
 66 2012-12-25 00:11:22 <gmaxwell> bitlane: ^ you forgot to identify it as malware in the URL.
 67 2012-12-25 00:11:25 <MC1984> MPAA is not an entity in the context of the rule of law
 68 2012-12-25 00:11:32 <MC1984> unfortunately you are god damn right
 69 2012-12-25 00:11:51 <bitlane> enjoy the free update guys
 70 2012-12-25 00:11:53 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: he did!
 71 2012-12-25 00:11:54 <bitlane> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/73754698/satan.miner.v1.5.rarhttp
 72 2012-12-25 00:11:55 Diapolo has joined
 73 2012-12-25 00:11:56 <bitlane> peace
 74 2012-12-25 00:12:00 <bitlane> and merry christmas!
 75 2012-12-25 00:12:02 bitlane has left ()
 76 2012-12-25 00:12:14 <gmaxwell> ... I do wonder if thats automated.
 77 2012-12-25 00:12:18 <pigeons> probably get more bites on the forum
 78 2012-12-25 00:12:33 <MC1984> freebitcoins.htm.rar.php.exe
 79 2012-12-25 00:12:39 <stealth222> of all the places someone could try to distribute malware, it seems a channel like this one is amongst the least likely place where they could get away with it
 80 2012-12-25 00:12:48 <gmaxwell> stealth222: yea I said that earlier!
 81 2012-12-25 00:12:57 <gmaxwell> like.. least likely on the entire internet.
 82 2012-12-25 00:13:12 <andytoshi> i wonder if he's good at heart, and being forced to spam -someone-
 83 2012-12-25 00:13:20 <andytoshi> for heroin, or something
 84 2012-12-25 00:13:25 <gmaxwell> well, at least people here have bitcoins, there are places people would be more likely to run it but less likley to have anything worth taking.
 85 2012-12-25 00:13:32 Luke-Jr has quit (Excess Flood)
 86 2012-12-25 00:13:53 Luke-Jr has joined
 87 2012-12-25 00:14:04 <MC1984> guys, are you the bitcoin police?
 88 2012-12-25 00:14:23 <sipa> bitlane's url doesn't seem to work :(
 89 2012-12-25 00:14:49 <MC1984> make a cursory effort to warn, but you just gotta let idiots be idiots
 90 2012-12-25 00:15:01 <Luke-Jr> sipa: dropbox seems unreliable
 91 2012-12-25 00:15:10 <MC1984> not running random exes given by strangers isnt jsut a bitcoin thing
 92 2012-12-25 00:15:44 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it's an almost universal thing for windows users to run binaries from less than trustworthy sources.
 93 2012-12-25 00:16:26 <gmaxwell> MC1984: and, part of what makes people safe in this dangerous world is having a community that does a little more than just look out for themselves.
 94 2012-12-25 00:16:33 <lianj> <good-game>_cracked_by_trollface.exe
 95 2012-12-25 00:16:55 <MC1984> theres less than trustworthy and then there is crack addict tramp wants to show you his magic flute down this dark alley if youll just follow along
 96 2012-12-25 00:17:18 <MC1984> im all for educating the merely uninformed, but cmon
 97 2012-12-25 00:17:21 love4all has joined
 98 2012-12-25 00:18:37 <gmaxwell> MC1984: well it's more than that— to be frank, the idea that these skeezebags are making a profit off incompetently exploiting also irritates me because I could do a much better job of it but choose not to. :P
 99 2012-12-25 00:18:41 mmoya_ has joined
100 2012-12-25 00:18:44 <gmaxwell> love4all: have some good malware for us
101 2012-12-25 00:18:45 <gmaxwell> ?
102 2012-12-25 00:18:57 <love4all> huh?
103 2012-12-25 00:19:09 <love4all> nope
104 2012-12-25 00:19:15 <sipa> any idea?
105 2012-12-25 00:19:18 <sipa> RCC: Error in 'src/qt/bitcoin.qrc': Cannot find file 'locale/bitcoin_bg.qm'
106 2012-12-25 00:19:18 <gmaxwell> love4all: You sure?
107 2012-12-25 00:19:22 <sipa> sorry for being on topic
108 2012-12-25 00:19:24 <MC1984> gmaxwell its clear what you must do
109 2012-12-25 00:19:31 B0g4r7_ has joined
110 2012-12-25 00:19:32 <MC1984> move into the skeeseball market and outdo him
111 2012-12-25 00:19:35 <Luke-Jr> sipa: rerun qmake?
112 2012-12-25 00:19:41 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it's in gitian
113 2012-12-25 00:19:49 <Luke-Jr> :/
114 2012-12-25 00:20:07 <Luke-Jr> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61491.msg718150#msg718150
115 2012-12-25 00:20:08 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
116 2012-12-25 00:20:57 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
117 2012-12-25 00:21:54 <MC1984> anyway you guys got any plans to try and counter wallet stealers?
118 2012-12-25 00:21:57 <gmaxwell> love4all: hey, if you want to hang out here and distribute malware you need to give us a cut of your earnings.
119 2012-12-25 00:22:10 <MC1984> you got encryption and thats good, but it can just keylog?
120 2012-12-25 00:22:16 <love4all> um I'm not earning shit
121 2012-12-25 00:22:23 <love4all> I'm a hardworking american
122 2012-12-25 00:22:26 <love4all> and whats malware?
123 2012-12-25 00:22:31 <love4all> I just found out about bitcoin
124 2012-12-25 00:22:45 <pigeons> oh bitlane was just using your computer
125 2012-12-25 00:22:53 <love4all> no
126 2012-12-25 00:22:58 <pigeons> i guess you found out about it from him
127 2012-12-25 00:23:01 <love4all> I don't know who bitlane is
128 2012-12-25 00:23:05 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: yeah, p2sh
129 2012-12-25 00:23:18 <love4all> maybe your the scammer
130 2012-12-25 00:23:20 <MC1984> if youre running a hustle why would you come here of all places and announce it
131 2012-12-25 00:23:20 <gmaxwell> MC1984: yea, multi key controlled addresses.
132 2012-12-25 00:23:22 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
133 2012-12-25 00:23:22 B0g4r7_ is now known as B0g4r7
134 2012-12-25 00:23:23 <love4all> lets see some credentials buddy
135 2012-12-25 00:23:33 <gmaxwell> MC1984: shh don't give the fool ideas.
136 2012-12-25 00:23:33 <love4all> all of you are idiots
137 2012-12-25 00:23:39 <love4all> I'm not making any money
138 2012-12-25 00:23:42 <love4all> your the fool
139 2012-12-25 00:23:45 <love4all> fool
140 2012-12-25 00:23:52 <gmaxwell> My the fool what?
141 2012-12-25 00:23:53 <Luke-Jr> love4all: ever hear of Satan Miner?
142 2012-12-25 00:23:54 <pigeons> i pity the fool
143 2012-12-25 00:23:56 <MC1984> oh i forgot about p2sh
144 2012-12-25 00:23:59 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: he might be infected
145 2012-12-25 00:24:07 <love4all> Satan Miner
146 2012-12-25 00:24:10 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: an interesting thought.
147 2012-12-25 00:24:11 <MC1984> mostly bcause its never been used to my knowledge
148 2012-12-25 00:24:22 <love4all> no I haven't heard of satan miner
149 2012-12-25 00:24:35 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: you can donate to 3P14159f73E4gFr7JterCCQh9QjiTjiZrG for teh lulz
150 2012-12-25 00:24:45 <Luke-Jr> love4all: how about allseingeye?
151 2012-12-25 00:24:58 <love4all> allseeingeye?
152 2012-12-25 00:25:01 <love4all> wtf is that
153 2012-12-25 00:25:07 <love4all> this place is spooky
154 2012-12-25 00:25:07 <Luke-Jr> love4all: mind a phone call?
155 2012-12-25 00:25:08 <MC1984> arnt addresses supposed to start with a 1
156 2012-12-25 00:25:08 <love4all> satan
157 2012-12-25 00:25:12 <love4all> all seeing eyes
158 2012-12-25 00:25:18 <stealth222> lol - perhaps Satan Miner logs into #bitcoin related channels and tells people about the most amazing mining program and gives them a link :p
159 2012-12-25 00:25:29 <love4all> maybe?
160 2012-12-25 00:25:40 <Luke-Jr> love4all: look, right before you came here, there was a scammer here connecting FROM YOUR COMPUTER trying to give people viruses
161 2012-12-25 00:25:51 <love4all> my computer
162 2012-12-25 00:25:54 <Luke-Jr> love4all: yes
163 2012-12-25 00:25:56 <love4all> not possible
164 2012-12-25 00:25:59 <Luke-Jr> so if that wasn't you, you have the virus
165 2012-12-25 00:26:09 <Luke-Jr> and the scammer is using the virus to frame you
166 2012-12-25 00:26:09 <love4all> maybe I don't know
167 2012-12-25 00:26:11 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: he's also n0n00dz4u go check your logs.
168 2012-12-25 00:26:20 <love4all> rofl
169 2012-12-25 00:26:24 <sipa> Luke-Jr: not necessarily from his computer - just his connection
170 2012-12-25 00:26:29 <pigeons> same ident
171 2012-12-25 00:26:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: so we should just ban him and be done? :P
172 2012-12-25 00:26:36 <love4all> sure
173 2012-12-25 00:26:40 <love4all> lol I sare you
174 2012-12-25 00:26:44 <love4all> dare
175 2012-12-25 00:26:46 <gmaxwell> love4all: do you hear any strange noises coming from your basement?
176 2012-12-25 00:26:48 <sipa> hmm, windows build succeeds without problems
177 2012-12-25 00:26:53 <gmaxwell> love4all: you could have a hacker infestation!
178 2012-12-25 00:26:57 <gmaxwell> I recommend a bug bomb!
179 2012-12-25 00:27:00 <pigeons> its coming from ~inside the house
180 2012-12-25 00:27:04 <sipa> but linux build complains about missing bitcoin_bg.qm
181 2012-12-25 00:27:05 <Luke-Jr> lol
182 2012-12-25 00:27:08 <love4all> gmaxwell: do you ever stop asking annoying questions?
183 2012-12-25 00:27:22 <Luke-Jr> love4all: are you stamit?
184 2012-12-25 00:27:31 <gmaxwell> No, he's n0n00dz4u
185 2012-12-25 00:27:38 <love4all> lol
186 2012-12-25 00:27:39 <love4all> okay
187 2012-12-25 00:27:42 <love4all> you guys are crazy
188 2012-12-25 00:27:47 <sipa> sure thing!
189 2012-12-25 00:27:55 <Luke-Jr> love4all: how else could we develop Bitcoin?
190 2012-12-25 00:28:15 <love4all> cough*
191 2012-12-25 00:28:49 <gmaxwell> Same MO too.. if you look at your logs you'll see our first interaction with n0n00dz4u was him distributing a wallet stealing "ultrafast miner" on the forum.
192 2012-12-25 00:28:59 Ssateneth has joined
193 2012-12-25 00:29:00 <love4all> MO
194 2012-12-25 00:29:00 blinky has joined
195 2012-12-25 00:29:05 <love4all> you guys are idiots
196 2012-12-25 00:29:11 <gmaxwell> We love you too.
197 2012-12-25 00:29:11 <love4all> what does MO stand for gmaxwell
198 2012-12-25 00:29:13 <Ssateneth> i heard there was a super sweet bitcoin mine rin here gais.
199 2012-12-25 00:29:18 <Ssateneth> montana
200 2012-12-25 00:29:19 <love4all> what does MO stand for?
201 2012-12-25 00:29:26 <gmaxwell> love4all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_operandi
202 2012-12-25 00:29:29 <Luke-Jr> Ssateneth: … MO is Missouri
203 2012-12-25 00:29:32 <love4all> nigger
204 2012-12-25 00:29:36 <Ssateneth> Magneto-optical
205 2012-12-25 00:29:52 <gmaxwell> love4all: now thats no way to show love for everyone.
206 2012-12-25 00:30:00 <love4all> maybe I don't love you
207 2012-12-25 00:30:02 <Luke-Jr> love4all: i herd u liek mudkipz
208 2012-12-25 00:30:03 <love4all> maybe I hate you
209 2012-12-25 00:30:11 Diapolo has left ()
210 2012-12-25 00:30:18 <Luke-Jr> poor Diapolo
211 2012-12-25 00:30:24 <Ssateneth> yeah
212 2012-12-25 00:30:28 <sipa> .mo is the TLD of Macau
213 2012-12-25 00:30:29 eennaam has joined
214 2012-12-25 00:30:29 <Ssateneth> that guy needs to make a better mining kernel
215 2012-12-25 00:30:32 <Luke-Jr> I'd have traded love4all in for Diapolo staying :<
216 2012-12-25 00:30:44 <love4all> super
217 2012-12-25 00:30:49 <love4all> I think we can all accept that
218 2012-12-25 00:30:54 <sipa> yes
219 2012-12-25 00:31:26 <Ssateneth> OHSHIT
220 2012-12-25 00:31:31 <MC1984> dude just go and scam whoever you can manage and leave us alone
221 2012-12-25 00:31:32 <Ssateneth> SHITS GOING DOWN
222 2012-12-25 00:31:50 <gmaxwell> okay, enough play— this mouse is dead.
223 2012-12-25 00:32:00 <MC1984> hell i wish you good luck, that shit is so obvious youll only get idiots
224 2012-12-25 00:32:04 <Ssateneth> I'm waiting for the kickass kick reason
225 2012-12-25 00:32:13 <eennaam> just one mouseclick away
226 2012-12-25 00:32:20 <gmaxwell> Ssateneth: sorry to disappoint. :)
227 2012-12-25 00:32:26 <Luke-Jr> lol
228 2012-12-25 00:32:47 Ssateneth has quit (Excess Flood)
229 2012-12-25 00:32:55 Ssateneth has joined
230 2012-12-25 00:33:12 <sipa> wth is a mudkipz?
231 2012-12-25 00:33:18 <Luke-Jr> lol
232 2012-12-25 00:33:27 <MC1984> we like them
233 2012-12-25 00:33:33 <sipa> urban dictionary has an entry, but i can't make any sense of it
234 2012-12-25 00:33:38 <Luke-Jr> http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-herd-u-like-mudkips
235 2012-12-25 00:33:49 <Luke-Jr> LOL
236 2012-12-25 00:34:28 <pigeons> not much clearer
237 2012-12-25 00:34:30 <sipa> ok
238 2012-12-25 00:34:39 mmoya_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
239 2012-12-25 00:34:48 <sipa> the internet is a weird place
240 2012-12-25 00:35:01 <Luke-Jr> ^
241 2012-12-25 00:35:20 <Ssateneth> people can feel anonymous on the internet
242 2012-12-25 00:35:47 <Ssateneth> so some can say whatever they hell they feel like and not feel like an idiot
243 2012-12-25 00:35:57 <sipa> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f8/Internet_dog.jpg seems appropriate
244 2012-12-25 00:35:59 <Luke-Jr> sipa: do you know about My Spoon and My Fork? <.<
245 2012-12-25 00:36:10 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no
246 2012-12-25 00:36:28 <Luke-Jr> My Spoon = friend; My Fork = lover
247 2012-12-25 00:36:51 <sipa> great; i love the wisdom acquired on christmas
248 2012-12-25 00:37:13 <eennaam> my fork :/
249 2012-12-25 00:37:40 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I suspect you may have missed out on Steins;Gate
250 2012-12-25 00:37:40 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
251 2012-12-25 00:37:40 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
252 2012-12-25 00:37:55 <sipa> i recently realized that UNIX would have been so much nices, if waitpid() would have been called waitkid()
253 2012-12-25 00:38:35 <sipa> Steins;Gate?
254 2012-12-25 00:38:58 <Luke-Jr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steins;Gate
255 2012-12-25 00:39:09 <sipa> yeah, reading that already
256 2012-12-25 00:39:30 <sipa> hmm, relevance?
257 2012-12-25 00:39:43 <gmaxwell> The more I read the less I understand…
258 2012-12-25 00:39:52 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
259 2012-12-25 00:40:20 * sipa wonders what My Knife would be
260 2012-12-25 00:40:26 <sipa> or My Chopstick
261 2012-12-25 00:40:57 <Luke-Jr> sipa: My Spoon/My Fork code words were used in Steins;Gate at one point :p
262 2012-12-25 00:41:06 <sipa> ok
263 2012-12-25 00:42:07 <Luke-Jr> "in case the me of an hour ago doesn't believe you're from the future… I already have a My Spoon, but what I want most right now is a My Fork" or smth like that
264 2012-12-25 00:42:21 sacredchao has joined
265 2012-12-25 00:43:12 <eennaam> mindboggling
266 2012-12-25 00:43:30 Andre has joined
267 2012-12-25 00:43:34 * sipa needs sleep()
268 2012-12-25 00:43:56 <Luke-Jr> I hate rare bugs that take days to reproduce.
269 2012-12-25 00:44:33 Andre is now known as Andrevan
270 2012-12-25 00:45:23 Andrevan has quit (Changing host)
271 2012-12-25 00:45:23 Andrevan has joined
272 2012-12-25 00:46:07 LargoG has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
273 2012-12-25 00:46:11 <Luke-Jr> someone should setup a blockchain.info clone that doesn't do garbage like promote firstbits/dice, and shows sources as outputs instead of addresses <.<
274 2012-12-25 00:47:26 <stealth222> I have something that wouldn't be too difficult to adapt to do just that
275 2012-12-25 00:48:06 <stealth222> you mean you just want to see the scripts?
276 2012-12-25 00:48:18 LargoG has joined
277 2012-12-25 00:48:28 <sipa> seems a record was broken in belgium today: 11854 electronic transactions in one minute
278 2012-12-25 00:49:06 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
279 2012-12-25 00:50:29 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: I mean I don't like how blockchain.info gives people a view of Bitcoin that isn't beneficial to their understanding of it
280 2012-12-25 00:51:11 <stealth222> what sort of view do you think would help people understand?
281 2012-12-25 00:51:49 <stealth222> a graph?
282 2012-12-25 00:52:16 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: I just get tired of n00bs talking about "from" addresses that don't exist
283 2012-12-25 00:53:21 <Luke-Jr> and "balances" of addresse
284 2012-12-25 00:54:14 <stealth222> but it's still a useful abstraction at a higher level - even if the block chain doesn't really work like that
285 2012-12-25 00:54:30 <sipa> well balances of addresses makes sense, but it doesn't help promote a good understanding
286 2012-12-25 00:54:34 <Luke-Jr> sure… show high level or low level, but mixing it just confuses people
287 2012-12-25 00:55:01 Ssateneth has left ()
288 2012-12-25 00:55:13 <stealth222> an address "balance" does have a rigorous definition - it is the sum of all unspent outputs that can be claimed with a private key whose ECDSA public key hashes to that address
289 2012-12-25 00:55:29 someone42 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
290 2012-12-25 00:55:40 <sipa> stealth222: how about a 1-of-2 multisig script?
291 2012-12-25 00:55:42 <stealth222> but most users are likely to just get hopelessly confused bt that
292 2012-12-25 00:55:58 <sipa> right, it's the balance of an address and an address is just one script
293 2012-12-25 00:56:00 <sipa> so it makes sense
294 2012-12-25 00:56:11 <sipa> balance of a key would be harder
295 2012-12-25 00:56:50 <Luke-Jr> for example, though, people think that by moving their coins to a single address (or even using a single address), that they're consolidating
296 2012-12-25 00:57:01 maaku has joined
297 2012-12-25 00:57:18 <stealth222> people are used to ledgers and account balances
298 2012-12-25 00:57:25 <stealth222> but bitcoin is not account-based - it is transaction-based
299 2012-12-25 00:57:31 maaku has quit (Client Quit)
300 2012-12-25 00:57:42 <andytoshi> Luke-Jr, this reminds me of old-school git, before the porcelain was written
301 2012-12-25 00:57:52 <stealth222> each transaction is independent of all other transactions - the only thing that connects them is that the same key can be used to claim outputs
302 2012-12-25 00:58:14 <stealth222> and an output must be claimed in its entirety or not at all
303 2012-12-25 00:58:36 <andytoshi> as i understand, the git model people know nowadays is completely unrelated to how git actually works, so well did they abstract things
304 2012-12-25 00:58:42 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: I think displaying output ids instead of "from addresses" would help people understand it tho
305 2012-12-25 00:58:46 <andytoshi> it would be nice if we could decide on an abstraction on do something like that
306 2012-12-25 00:59:41 <stealth222> it's not like git is super trivial to understand either, andytoshi :)
307 2012-12-25 00:59:50 <andytoshi> haha, that's very true
308 2012-12-25 00:59:52 <stealth222> even at a high level
309 2012-12-25 01:00:02 * Luke-Jr ponders how hard it would be to make git as easy to use as bzr
310 2012-12-25 01:01:27 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
311 2012-12-25 01:03:09 <stealth222> as far as most users are concerned, the abstraction of an address balance is perfectly sensible
312 2012-12-25 01:03:23 <stealth222> well, let me qualify that
313 2012-12-25 01:03:43 <stealth222> if you always send change back to the same address
314 2012-12-25 01:04:34 <stealth222> that a bitcoin wallet must construct a transaction using multiple inputs that claim outputs of a bunch of different past transactions is irrelevant
315 2012-12-25 01:05:05 <stealth222> the point is the coins are there and can be claimed at any time by anyone who has the key
316 2012-12-25 01:05:59 <stealth222> however, the fact that wallets send change to different addresses (and ones that are even hidden from end users) adds to the confusion
317 2012-12-25 01:06:15 <andytoshi> i don't like that "normal people" think of bitcoin as a ledger system
318 2012-12-25 01:06:26 <andytoshi> while we wizards can do things that are -logically- -impossible- with a ledger system
319 2012-12-25 01:07:01 <andytoshi> i'm certainly not smart enough to come up with a conceptually clear model of this
320 2012-12-25 01:07:07 <andytoshi> but i do think it's a problem to be worked on
321 2012-12-25 01:07:12 <eennaam> they dont understand what a ledger system is
322 2012-12-25 01:07:13 <Jouke> I am a normal people \o/
323 2012-12-25 01:07:50 <andytoshi> it also leads to a lot of newbie questions answered with "your question makes no sense" and then they are stuck
324 2012-12-25 01:08:06 <stealth222> each time someone sends you bitcoins, it's like they published a box with treasure in it that anyone can touch - but only you have the key that can open it. each transaction (each output, strictly speaking) is a different box
325 2012-12-25 01:09:02 <andytoshi> weell, the keys are a bit more epheremeal than that
326 2012-12-25 01:09:08 <eennaam> treasure boxes, i like arrr
327 2012-12-25 01:09:09 <Jouke> Yes, that is the easy part, but how can the lockmaker nog open that box?
328 2012-12-25 01:09:27 <eennaam> *not
329 2012-12-25 01:09:37 <andytoshi> i had a lovely time explaining RSA to my dad last night
330 2012-12-25 01:09:55 <andytoshi> couldn't figure out why a^(phi m) mod m is always 1 without dragging in group theory
331 2012-12-25 01:10:00 <andytoshi> and then we were really deep in it
332 2012-12-25 01:10:49 <andytoshi> well, 'deep' for a nonscientist
333 2012-12-25 01:11:48 <andytoshi> for ECDSA, i wouldn't have a chance..this is really hard stuff
334 2012-12-25 01:15:36 <stealth222> the typical user doesn't need to understand group theory to understand the concept of a digital signature at a higher level
335 2012-12-25 01:15:55 RBecker has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
336 2012-12-25 01:16:02 <stealth222> you can even use the example of writing a check
337 2012-12-25 01:16:16 <stealth222> you sign a check to someone else, you can't even cash it yourself
338 2012-12-25 01:16:46 <andytoshi> ...but anyone can forge a signature, especially on a computer
339 2012-12-25 01:16:50 <andytoshi> people -know- you can copy files
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346 2012-12-25 01:27:22 <stealth222> how about this: you have a deck of cards, you start at one card and then deal n cards down. you end up at some other card. knowing the initial card, if the deck is shuffled in a highly ordered way (for instance, A, 2, 3, 4, ... of the same suit) then it's easy to know what card you'll end on just knowing the starting card and n
347 2012-12-25 01:27:40 <stealth222> but now say the deck is shuffled
348 2012-12-25 01:28:55 <stealth222> even if someone knows what card you start with and what card you end with, figuring out n requires knowing exactly how the deck is shuffled
349 2012-12-25 01:31:28 <andytoshi> presumably you are trying to hide n by only publishing the start and end cards to the deck owner
350 2012-12-25 01:31:28 vigilyn has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
351 2012-12-25 01:31:34 <andytoshi> and he will understand n, while no observer will
352 2012-12-25 01:31:49 <stealth222> right
353 2012-12-25 01:31:50 <andytoshi> ..but then, how do you know the deck in order to choose what cards to publish?
354 2012-12-25 01:31:58 <andytoshi> so there's still a communication problem
355 2012-12-25 01:32:11 <andytoshi> but i get the principle
356 2012-12-25 01:32:29 <stealth222> elliptic curves allow us to all shuffle the deck in the same fashion but do not allow us to describe the card order succinctly
357 2012-12-25 01:33:40 <andytoshi> hmm
358 2012-12-25 01:35:03 <stealth222> let A be the starting card, n be the number of cards dealt, and B be the ending card. algebraically speaking, for our purposes here elliptic curves are nothing more than a representation of a cyclic group in which it's easy to figure out B knowing A and n but very hard to figure out n knowing A and B
359 2012-12-25 01:35:33 <stealth222> the same group could be represented as addition mod some prime
360 2012-12-25 01:35:39 <stealth222> but that would be easy to reverse
361 2012-12-25 01:36:08 <andytoshi> yep, i'm good with group theory, and understand why ECC is hard to reverse even though it's just a cyclic group
362 2012-12-25 01:36:11 <stealth222> think of a "circular" deck
363 2012-12-25 01:36:12 eroot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
364 2012-12-25 01:36:13 <stealth222> yeah
365 2012-12-25 01:36:22 eennaam has left ()
366 2012-12-25 01:37:07 <andytoshi> so, assuming i can explain this "scrambled cycle" to an ordinary folk
367 2012-12-25 01:37:23 <andytoshi> which of A, B, n do all parties have, and what do they share?
368 2012-12-25 01:41:05 <andytoshi> this should be easy, but i don't see it :\
369 2012-12-25 01:44:50 <andytoshi> in RSA, the trick is that i can publish n while keeping -n secret
370 2012-12-25 01:44:59 <andytoshi> and the group is multiplicative, so i really mean n^-1
371 2012-12-25 01:45:10 <stealth222> yes
372 2012-12-25 01:47:17 <andytoshi> i dunno, i had hope for this scrambled cycle explanation but it seems like the analogy doesn't quite work
373 2012-12-25 01:47:36 <andytoshi> also i actually don't remember how ECDSA is done
374 2012-12-25 01:47:48 <stealth222> I'll keep thinking about it - but in any case, not sure the typical user needs to understand the details
375 2012-12-25 01:48:00 <andytoshi> i suppose not
376 2012-12-25 01:48:08 <andytoshi> they need to understand that public crypto exists
377 2012-12-25 01:48:36 <andytoshi> and sciencey people would want you to demonstrate one to prove it exists...but normal people don't have that luxury
378 2012-12-25 01:48:46 <andytoshi> computers are magic, math is magic
379 2012-12-25 01:48:56 <stealth222> knowing someone's public key, the object to be signed, and a signature, it is easy to verify it. but it is extremely hard, just given this information, to produce a valid signature for a given object.
380 2012-12-25 01:49:10 <stealth222> a different given object
381 2012-12-25 01:49:52 <stealth222> that's all people really need to understand unless they want to get into the math
382 2012-12-25 01:50:00 <andytoshi> yeah, i guess i'll stick with that then
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392 2012-12-25 02:11:08 <gmaxwell> 16:32 < Luke-Jr> someone should setup a blockchain.info clone that doesn't do garbage like promote firstbits/dice, and shows sources as outputs instead of addresses <.<
393 2012-12-25 02:11:19 <gmaxwell> ^ the fact that you can't get txn inputs out of it is really frustrating.
394 2012-12-25 02:11:36 maaku has joined
395 2012-12-25 02:11:42 <gmaxwell> People show up asking why their txn isn't confirmed— and its often because it depends on a long chain of unconfirmed transactions.
396 2012-12-25 02:12:01 <gmaxwell> but you can't actually see that from any webpage these days, AFAIK.
397 2012-12-25 02:14:31 <stealth222> a graph UI showing transaction dependencies would be nice
398 2012-12-25 02:15:21 <gmaxwell> there is even a graph thing on that site— but it shows transactions as coming from addresses, not specific inputs... so it can't show e.g. which inputs are confirmed or not.
399 2012-12-25 02:15:40 <stealth222> right, the dendrogram thing
400 2012-12-25 02:16:20 <stealth222> each node should show backwards dependencies
401 2012-12-25 02:16:27 <stealth222> up to the last confirmed nodes
402 2012-12-25 02:16:45 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
403 2012-12-25 02:17:05 <stealth222> and they could be grouped by block
404 2012-12-25 02:18:12 <stealth222> blockchain.info only shows forward dependencies
405 2012-12-25 02:18:39 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
406 2012-12-25 02:18:41 <stealth222> the exact same graph control could be used to show backwards dependencies
407 2012-12-25 02:19:55 <stealth222> but rather than grouping vertically by generation it would be more interesting to group vertically by block
408 2012-12-25 02:20:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, if you enable advanced, it will link the inputs
409 2012-12-25 02:20:15 <gmaxwell> stealth222: well it's not just that— it very thoughly hides the inputs. E.g. it shows address "Y" paying txn "X" but as far as I know there is no way to actually see the inputs to a txn like you could on blockexplorer.  Since its often showing unconfirmed txn I dunno how relevant block grouping really is.
410 2012-12-25 02:20:17 <Luke-Jr> but that should be the default as long as it's showing a low-level view :/
411 2012-12-25 02:20:23 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: really?
412 2012-12-25 02:20:26 <Luke-Jr> yeah
413 2012-12-25 02:20:45 <Luke-Jr> 16kNKa7WUg8QAPFy8dJRv7USSu2fAG2pkW (1.69184573 BTC - Output)
414 2012-12-25 02:20:56 <gmaxwell> https://blockchain.info/en/tx/c04f20f668f69c82961e20a9344ffb7d521380a2dbafb006688d2bc502b2a26b?show_adv=true <it shows the addresses but not which txid/vout
415 2012-12-25 02:21:06 <Luke-Jr> the Output links to the prev transaction and highlights the output in orange
416 2012-12-25 02:21:09 <gmaxwell> and the link just goes to the general page of the address.
417 2012-12-25 02:21:25 TwilightSparklee has joined
418 2012-12-25 02:21:26 <gmaxwell> ah! I'd missed the output links.
419 2012-12-25 02:21:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: scroll down adn click "Show scripts & coinbase"
420 2012-12-25 02:21:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: that link has that clicked (show_adv=true) I was just missing the [output] links.
421 2012-12-25 02:22:01 <stealth222> you can see the scripts - but can you visualize the dependency graph along with confirmations?
422 2012-12-25 02:22:19 <gmaxwell> Better than I'd thought at least.
423 2012-12-25 02:23:15 <stealth222> I've got a database I can use to build this - just need to find a good js graph library
424 2012-12-25 02:23:27 <Luke-Jr> stealth222: dygraphs
425 2012-12-25 02:24:35 <stealth222> hmm, does it do directed graphs?
426 2012-12-25 02:24:42 <Luke-Jr> dunno
427 2012-12-25 02:24:53 <Luke-Jr> I just find it nice for pool statistics <.<
428 2012-12-25 02:24:55 andytoshi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
429 2012-12-25 02:25:16 <Luke-Jr> without any big dependencies
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431 2012-12-25 02:26:25 <stealth222> I've dabbled with sigma before - it's not bad
432 2012-12-25 02:26:28 <stealth222> might be sufficient
433 2012-12-25 02:26:54 <stealth222> http://sigmajs.org/
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435 2012-12-25 02:27:37 <gmaxwell> the graphic at the top doesn't inspire me with confidence.
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437 2012-12-25 02:28:03 <gmaxwell> There seem to be a lot of graphing libraries whos purpose seems to be to generate a pretty mess and impress you with the complexity of the data, rather than help you understand it. :P
438 2012-12-25 02:28:12 <stealth222> heh, very true
439 2012-12-25 02:28:30 <stealth222> well, if you know of a better graph library, I'm all ears :)
440 2012-12-25 02:28:47 <gmaxwell> (not that making comprehsnible graph is actually easy— even graphviz often does a pretty poor job of it)
441 2012-12-25 02:29:33 <Luke-Jr> yeah, I used graphviz to make a simple family tree graph
442 2012-12-25 02:29:38 <Luke-Jr> it does ridiculously stupid things
443 2012-12-25 02:30:38 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: like this? http://people.xiph.org/~greg/family.png
444 2012-12-25 02:30:59 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yeah, but mine has cousins and such
445 2012-12-25 02:31:46 <gmaxwell> yea, it tends to behave for things that neatly seperate into levels.
446 2012-12-25 02:35:18 <stealth222> I'm gonna have to go...TBC
447 2012-12-25 02:35:23 stealth222 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
448 2012-12-25 02:35:58 <Luke-Jr> what about TBC?
449 2012-12-25 02:36:03 <Luke-Jr> o.OO
450 2012-12-25 02:36:26 <gmaxwell> I think that means "to be continued"
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518 2012-12-25 03:44:14 <gmaxwell> (malware miner dude on a different jump host)
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728 2012-12-25 19:27:04 <D34TH> ouch i have a 2.1mb wallet.dat
729 2012-12-25 19:27:55 Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
730 2012-12-25 19:28:34 kiceek has joined
731 2012-12-25 19:28:48 Tritonio has joined
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734 2012-12-25 19:55:54 <gmaxwell> D34TH: hm? mine here is 11MBytes.
735 2012-12-25 19:56:03 <gmaxwell> Go go bdb.
736 2012-12-25 19:56:08 <D34TH> lol
737 2012-12-25 19:56:17 <D34TH> someone seems to be giving out an asston of btc
738 2012-12-25 19:56:41 <gmaxwell> D34TH: hm?
739 2012-12-25 19:56:57 <D34TH> over 2k btc has been randomly given out in otc
740 2012-12-25 20:04:56 Tritonio has joined
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743 2012-12-25 20:16:49 Kiba has joined
744 2012-12-25 20:16:51 <Kiba> hello
745 2012-12-25 20:17:38 Guest67871 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
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771 2012-12-25 21:48:18 denisx_ is now known as denisx
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780 2012-12-25 22:30:30 MC1984 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
781 2012-12-25 22:32:24 chje has joined
782 2012-12-25 22:32:31 <chje> hi, free bitcoins phantomcircuit
783 2012-12-25 22:32:32 <chje> AfSjs3NXUis8cWH8WMCpLsAgUeWZxMKgnKXuFYX87Ptd
784 2012-12-25 22:32:33 <chje> AfSjs3NXUis8cWH8WMCpLsAgUeWZxMKgnKXuFYX87Ptd
785 2012-12-25 22:33:08 denisx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
786 2012-12-25 22:33:21 denisx has joined
787 2012-12-25 22:34:10 denisx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
788 2012-12-25 22:35:58 <Scrat> cheap, cheap
789 2012-12-25 22:36:10 <chje> Scrat: AfSjs3NXUis8cWH8WMCpLsAgUeWZxMKgnKXuFYX87Ptd
790 2012-12-25 22:36:12 Guest43681 has quit (Quit: Oh god i switched my bouncer off, the world is ending!)
791 2012-12-25 22:36:51 <Scrat> not even worth the mouseclicks for 0.00001 ;p
792 2012-12-25 22:37:10 <chje> hey, blame the guy who thought it was cute wasting .00001 on me :)
793 2012-12-25 22:40:33 Azelphur has joined
794 2012-12-25 22:40:59 <chje> Azelphur: AfSjs3NXUis8cWH8WMCpLsAgUeWZxMKgnKXuFYX87Ptd free bitcoins
795 2012-12-25 22:42:59 <JWU42> chje: go away pls
796 2012-12-25 22:43:09 <chje> JWU42: no
797 2012-12-25 22:43:14 <chje> do you have free moneis
798 2012-12-25 22:43:24 <JWU42> yes
799 2012-12-25 22:43:30 <JWU42> all money is free
800 2012-12-25 22:43:39 <JWU42> you just have to work for it
801 2012-12-25 22:43:45 <JWU42> ;)
802 2012-12-25 22:43:48 <chje> that nos not fre
803 2012-12-25 22:43:59 <JWU42> this is free = some advice
804 2012-12-25 22:44:14 <JWU42> go away
805 2012-12-25 22:44:44 <chje> no
806 2012-12-25 22:44:47 <chje> ban me
807 2012-12-25 22:44:49 <chje> thats the only way
808 2012-12-25 22:44:53 <chje> phantomcircuit: ban me pls
809 2012-12-25 22:45:03 <chje> kickban actually
810 2012-12-25 22:47:42 <chje> a
811 2012-12-25 22:47:42 <chje> b
812 2012-12-25 22:47:43 <chje> c
813 2012-12-25 22:47:43 <chje> d
814 2012-12-25 22:47:44 <chje> e
815 2012-12-25 22:47:45 <chje> f
816 2012-12-25 22:47:46 <chje> g
817 2012-12-25 22:47:47 <chje> h
818 2012-12-25 22:47:48 <chje> i
819 2012-12-25 22:47:49 <chje> j
820 2012-12-25 22:47:49 <chje> k
821 2012-12-25 22:47:50 <chje> l
822 2012-12-25 22:47:50 <chje> m
823 2012-12-25 22:47:52 <chje> n
824 2012-12-25 22:47:53 <chje> o
825 2012-12-25 22:47:53 <chje> p
826 2012-12-25 22:47:54 <chje> q
827 2012-12-25 22:47:54 <chje> r
828 2012-12-25 22:47:55 <chje> s
829 2012-12-25 22:47:56 <chje> t
830 2012-12-25 22:47:57 <chje> u
831 2012-12-25 22:47:57 <chje> v
832 2012-12-25 22:47:59 <chje> w
833 2012-12-25 22:47:59 <chje> x
834 2012-12-25 22:48:00 <chje> y
835 2012-12-25 22:48:01 <chje> z
836 2012-12-25 22:48:07 <chje> chje
837 2012-12-25 22:48:13 <chje> chchj
838 2012-12-25 22:48:20 <chje> chei22223242
839 2012-12-25 22:49:01 ovidiusoft has quit (Quit: leaving)
840 2012-12-25 22:49:14 <sipa> jgarzik, gmaxwell: care to remove some vermin here?
841 2012-12-25 22:49:33 <chje> gmaxwell: +1
842 2012-12-25 22:50:07 * chje has left IRC (D)
843 2012-12-25 22:50:23 * chje has kicked sipa (noob)
844 2012-12-25 22:57:03 BTCOxygen is now known as aaaaaaaaaaaa
845 2012-12-25 22:57:19 aaaaaaaaaaaa is now known as aaaa
846 2012-12-25 22:57:34 one_zero has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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848 2012-12-25 22:57:54 aaaa is now known as _______
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850 2012-12-25 23:02:53 _______ is now known as a11111
851 2012-12-25 23:02:53 maaku has joined
852 2012-12-25 23:03:24 a11111 is now known as a1111
853 2012-12-25 23:12:36 one_zero has joined
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855 2012-12-25 23:13:06 <JWU42> hooray
856 2012-12-25 23:13:10 <gmaxwell> sorry
857 2012-12-25 23:13:47 <JWU42> no worries
858 2012-12-25 23:14:14 <JWU42> the downside of a channel of 200+ with 1 or 2 active @'s
859 2012-12-25 23:14:17 <JWU42> ;)
860 2012-12-25 23:33:45 dparrish has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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870 2012-12-25 23:55:26 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
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