1 2012-12-27 00:00:29 <gmaxwell> I wonder if you can buy programattic access to google. ... maybe thats what that google+ thing is about.
  2 2012-12-27 00:00:47 <sipa> the search API?
  3 2012-12-27 00:00:58 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
  4 2012-12-27 00:02:23 <gmaxwell> Yea. :P
  5 2012-12-27 00:03:09 <stealth222> yes, you can
  6 2012-12-27 00:05:04 <stealth222> 100 queries a day for free
  7 2012-12-27 00:05:08 <stealth222> any more, you need to pay
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 17 2012-12-27 00:31:11 <epscy> anyway to limit how much memory bitcoind can use
 18 2012-12-27 00:31:42 <sipa> not really, but most of it is send/receive buffers
 19 2012-12-27 00:31:49 <sipa> if you have many connections
 20 2012-12-27 00:32:05 <gmaxwell> epscy: sure! if you use ulimit it will be limited and crash when it hits the limit.
 21 2012-12-27 00:32:06 <epscy> ahh so i could limit connections
 22 2012-12-27 00:32:34 <sipa> or reduce the size of the buffer per connection
 23 2012-12-27 00:32:34 <gmaxwell> ohh.. you want it to be limited _AND_ keep working? yea, disable listening and perhaps reduce your connection count further.
 24 2012-12-27 00:32:53 <epscy> hmmm, how do i do all that
 25 2012-12-27 00:33:54 <sipa> -maxreceivebuffer (mine is at 1200), -maxsendbuffer (mine is at 1600), -maxconnections
 26 2012-12-27 00:34:14 <sipa> and -nolisten perhaps
 27 2012-12-27 00:36:01 <epscy> gonna try setting connections to 10
 28 2012-12-27 00:36:06 <epscy> it had 63
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 30 2012-12-27 00:36:23 <epscy> this is on an openvz vm with 1 gig of ram
 31 2012-12-27 00:36:34 <epscy> which it was using almost all of
 32 2012-12-27 00:36:51 <epscy> and giving me occasional bad malloc errors
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 34 2012-12-27 00:36:59 <epscy> thanks for your help
 35 2012-12-27 00:37:00 <sipa> what code version?
 36 2012-12-27 00:37:28 <epscy> 0.7.2
 37 2012-12-27 00:37:55 <gmaxwell> epscy: I wonder if your openvz is limiting vm instead of rss.
 38 2012-12-27 00:38:07 <epscy> rss?
 39 2012-12-27 00:38:23 <sipa> resident set size
 40 2012-12-27 00:38:24 <gmaxwell> s/rss/res/
 41 2012-12-27 00:38:30 <gmaxwell> yea, or that.
 42 2012-12-27 00:38:30 <epscy> oh
 43 2012-12-27 00:38:34 <epscy> i don't know
 44 2012-12-27 00:38:41 <gmaxwell> actual used memory verses address space.
 45 2012-12-27 00:38:48 <epscy> i don't run the the host
 46 2012-12-27 00:38:52 <gmaxwell> 1gb sounds a bit high for actual used memory for bitcoin.
 47 2012-12-27 00:39:17 mmoya_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 48 2012-12-27 00:39:32 <gmaxwell> e.g. I have a node right now with 25 connections using 200mb.
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 50 2012-12-27 00:39:44 <gmaxwell> ah, actually 291.
 51 2012-12-27 00:40:04 <gmaxwell> but virtual is 1857m
 52 2012-12-27 00:40:07 <gmaxwell> (uhhh)
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 54 2012-12-27 00:40:43 <sipa> mine has 454/1334, with 86 connections
 55 2012-12-27 00:40:51 <epscy> i see
 56 2012-12-27 00:41:01 <epscy> it's a pretty cheap vm
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 58 2012-12-27 00:41:23 <sipa> i see no reason why it would limit VM
 59 2012-12-27 00:41:39 <sipa> (virtual memory, not virtual machine)
 60 2012-12-27 00:41:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: there is no good reason, but I know that at least once before someone ran into that.
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 62 2012-12-27 00:42:06 <stealth222> the virtual machine might be running on a very small HD partition?
 63 2012-12-27 00:42:22 <gmaxwell> I only suggested it because as you point out, 86/454... I'd expect max connections can be reached with 1gb.
 64 2012-12-27 00:42:28 <gmaxwell> stealth222: vm has nothing to do with swap space.
 65 2012-12-27 00:42:53 <epscy> huh only 1.3gb of disk space available
 66 2012-12-27 00:42:58 <gmaxwell> stealth222: it's basically measuring address space fragmentation there.
 67 2012-12-27 00:43:00 <epscy> could that be a problem?
 68 2012-12-27 00:43:09 <sipa> not yet
 69 2012-12-27 00:43:59 <stealth222> don't you need like 20gb of disk space just for the block chain?
 70 2012-12-27 00:44:09 <epscy> more like 6gb
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 72 2012-12-27 00:44:49 <sipa> for the block chain, 4.5 GB or so
 73 2012-12-27 00:45:10 <sipa> the 0.7 blkindex.dat requires another 1.5 GB
 74 2012-12-27 00:45:10 <stealth222> it used to take a lot more with BDB
 75 2012-12-27 00:45:26 <lianj> our mongodb is 18 oO
 76 2012-12-27 00:45:56 <sipa> 0.8 undo data takes 600 MB
 77 2012-12-27 00:49:04 <gmaxwell> my 0.8 directories are about a gig smaller than the 0.7 directories right now.
 78 2012-12-27 00:49:29 <gmaxwell> I guess that difference should increase with time.
 79 2012-12-27 00:52:52 <stealth222> about how much RAM does the mempool typically take? and how long before orphaned transactions are removed?
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 92 2012-12-27 01:33:30 <gmaxwell> sipa: "This was generated by BlockChain Wallet.  Last time I used it was the 24th with my iPad app.  Hope this helps."
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 94 2012-12-27 01:33:53 <gmaxwell> (wrt 1Pq7zKpZHLaT9yheWyHqQp8XUtvTmt7VTm)
 95 2012-12-27 01:39:53 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell TD i may have put a bit too much in one commit (sorry...poor workflow...) but any chance i could get the "Make FullPrunedBlockStore/Chain upgrade-friendly" commit from https://code.google.com/r/bluemattme-bitcoinj/source/list?name=headersfirstsync merged?
 96 2012-12-27 01:39:53 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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127 2012-12-27 15:46:16 <MC1984> who runs that testnet faucet?
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130 2012-12-27 15:46:54 <MC1984> its only supposed to give away 50 coin but i just got another 50 by refreshing the page.......
131 2012-12-27 15:47:04 <MC1984> someone could empty it relly easy
132 2012-12-27 15:47:57 <MC1984> http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/ that one
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139 2012-12-27 15:58:35 <TD> sipa: ping
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141 2012-12-27 15:58:59 <TD> sipa: negative S/R values in signatures.  i thought openssl always interprets these values as positive, in violation of the spec
142 2012-12-27 15:59:06 <TD> so what does that mean exactly?
143 2012-12-27 15:59:37 <gmaxwell> TD: It means they're positive, in violation of the spec.
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145 2012-12-27 15:59:58 <gmaxwell> More importantly it means that third parties can modify your transactions.
146 2012-12-27 16:00:28 <TD> i'm confused. the page says the transactions have negative S/R values. you just said it means they're positive. what are you referring to?
147 2012-12-27 16:00:49 <TD> oh, i see
148 2012-12-27 16:00:49 <gmaxwell> TD: they're encoded with negative values. Openssl is broken and treats them as positive.
149 2012-12-27 16:00:55 <gmaxwell> So they still work.
150 2012-12-27 16:00:57 <TD> http://r6.ca/blog/20111119T211504Z.html
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159 2012-12-27 16:35:38 <TD> oh ffs. i can't believe the stupid build has broken for me again
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161 2012-12-27 16:35:56 <MC1984> umm the testnet is confirming really fast
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167 2012-12-27 16:52:55 <kjj> so...  I'm trying to make sense of the binary format of the signatures.
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169 2012-12-27 16:58:06 <kjj> the tangled mess of encoding schemes kinda sucks, but I think I understand it now
170 2012-12-27 17:00:54 <kjj> the signature seems to be a DER encoding of R and S, but I can make no sense of the final 0x01 byte tacked onto the end
171 2012-12-27 17:01:36 <TD> sighash flag
172 2012-12-27 17:01:40 <TD> see the code
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174 2012-12-27 17:02:38 <kjj> ok, so the sighash flag is just appended after the end of the DER part?
175 2012-12-27 17:05:23 <TD> yeah
176 2012-12-27 17:06:22 <sipa> TD: it basically means the R or S values miss the padding zero byte in front
177 2012-12-27 17:06:45 <sipa> TD: but OpenSSL interprets everything as positive anyway, so it works, in violation of the spec
178 2012-12-27 17:06:58 <TD> yeah
179 2012-12-27 17:07:11 <kjj> ahh.  now it makes sense
180 2012-12-27 17:08:12 <TD> sipa: from the error message i'm getting, it seems like a part of the logfile went missing from the middle
181 2012-12-27 17:08:13 <TD> :(
182 2012-12-27 17:08:25 <TD> i wonder if it's safe to just blow away the logfile
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184 2012-12-27 17:08:34 <sipa> yeah, log truncation is a bitch
185 2012-12-27 17:08:46 <sipa> i frequently run with -debug to avoid that
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187 2012-12-27 17:09:07 <TD> what does -debug do
188 2012-12-27 17:09:10 <TD> it doesn't seem to be truncation
189 2012-12-27 17:09:15 <TD> literally, bits went missing from the middle
190 2012-12-27 17:09:32 <sipa> oh
191 2012-12-27 17:09:39 <sipa> -debug disables log truncation
192 2012-12-27 17:09:51 <sipa> but truncation is dropping the first part, not stuff in the middle
193 2012-12-27 17:10:29 <kjj> so, basically in DER, the correct encoding for 255 is 020200FF, because 0201FF is -1
194 2012-12-27 17:10:41 <sipa> correct
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197 2012-12-27 17:11:30 <TD> actually, i just renamed the LOG and LOG.old files, and got the same error
198 2012-12-27 17:11:46 <TD> so maybe it says that even when truncation/deletion has occurred
199 2012-12-27 17:11:59 <stealth222> in order to make dynamic wallet loading/unloading thread-safe, do we need to place locks around each and every wallet method?
200 2012-12-27 17:12:14 <TD> yeah the LOG files are empty
201 2012-12-27 17:12:35 <TD> hm
202 2012-12-27 17:13:26 <sipa> stealth222: the goal is to push down the locking into the appropriate public methods of wallet/blockchain/... interfaces, but right now, the RPC system takes the locks on inner structures (cs_main and cs_wallet) as necessary (and over-eagerly)
203 2012-12-27 17:13:54 <sipa> stealth222: multi wallet shouldn't change that - RPCs will just lock cs_main plus the cs of the selected wallet
204 2012-12-27 17:13:58 <stealth222> that's what I was noticing. So the RPC is the only way that these methods can be invoked, yes?
205 2012-12-27 17:14:14 <stealth222> other than the init stuff
206 2012-12-27 17:14:23 <sipa> not necessarily, but other places should takes locks as necessary, so don't worry
207 2012-12-27 17:14:38 <sipa> callbacks from main, for example
208 2012-12-27 17:14:57 <stealth222> so as long as I lock all wallet deletes with cs of wallet everything should be ok?
209 2012-12-27 17:15:04 <stealth222> err
210 2012-12-27 17:15:06 <stealth222> I mean
211 2012-12-27 17:15:09 <stealth222> with cs_main
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214 2012-12-27 17:15:45 <stealth222> can't use a critical section in an object that's being deleted :p
215 2012-12-27 17:15:45 <sipa> you'll probably want a CS on CWalletList or hoz did you call it, that is takes to make changes to the _list_ of wallets
216 2012-12-27 17:15:56 <TD> hm
217 2012-12-27 17:16:02 <TD> RepairDB() did indeed do something
218 2012-12-27 17:16:17 <stealth222> ok, makes sense, sipa
219 2012-12-27 17:16:21 <sipa> TD: i plan to write coindb error checking one of the next days
220 2012-12-27 17:16:50 <sipa> TD: did it do something, or did it do what you hoped? :)
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222 2012-12-27 17:19:25 <TD> well
223 2012-12-27 17:19:28 <TD> it worked
224 2012-12-27 17:19:35 <TD> i'm not sure it's safe in the general case though
225 2012-12-27 17:19:39 <TD> RepairDB can delete data
226 2012-12-27 17:19:49 <TD> if you delete data from the coinsdb then it will appear coins are spent when they are not
227 2012-12-27 17:20:29 <TD> it might be better to rebuild the databases from the blk files if there are ever any problems
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230 2012-12-27 17:20:55 <sipa> the idea i have about coindb checking is doing an in-memory rollback of the database (using undo data, disconnecting the last few blocks), with paranoid checks on the consistency
231 2012-12-27 17:21:23 <sipa> perhaps if repairdb is needed, it could be attempted, but automatically force a much larger rollback during checking
232 2012-12-27 17:21:46 <MC1984> what does it mean when a payee address box turns red
233 2012-12-27 17:21:55 <MC1984> does it mean malformed address?
234 2012-12-27 17:22:18 <sipa> i suppose
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236 2012-12-27 17:22:55 <TD> probably best to just reindex from scratch and play it safe
237 2012-12-27 17:24:15 <MC1984> oh that guy has a mainnet address asking to donate testnet coins :/
238 2012-12-27 17:26:45 <sipa> TD: well leveldb does have checksums... the chance for getting actually corrupted data is small imho - compared to the risk of getting trimmed or outdated data
239 2012-12-27 17:27:09 <sipa> and those should be easier to detect, especially as you expect those to happen on stuff that was recently writtenµ
240 2012-12-27 17:28:06 <sipa> sure, reindexing is safer, and maybe should be recommended, but not everyone will accept the time that takes, afaik
241 2012-12-27 17:28:08 <gmaxwell> Right now just deleting parts of the coins databases can cause it to just get stuck, which is quite perplexing. :)
242 2012-12-27 17:28:53 <sipa> yeah; that shouldn't happen, but i suppose a rollback check will catch that quickly
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244 2012-12-27 17:31:51 <sipa> TD: partly as a hack, if you just delete the coins subdir, it will rebuild it at startup (not in the background, but it's faster than -reindex)
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246 2012-12-27 17:32:31 <sipa> afk
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251 2012-12-27 17:39:37 <stealth222> when should I use LOCK and when should I use LOCK2?
252 2012-12-27 17:40:41 <stealth222> there's some documentation on it in coding.txt - just want to make sure I understand it correctly
253 2012-12-27 17:42:40 <stealth222> nvm, I think I get it
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265 2012-12-27 18:02:29 <TD> i wasn't able to reproduce negative signature values with froyo. at least not on an emulator
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300 2012-12-27 20:21:18 <r2p2> hey, not sure if I'm right here... started bitcoin-qt 3 days ago and since then it is syncronizing with network. and it seems to become exponential slower and slower while my hdd io from that process gets higher and higher. I that normal?
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305 2012-12-27 20:30:27 <maaku> r2p2: unfortunately yes
306 2012-12-27 20:30:32 <maaku> this will be mostly fixed in 0.8
307 2012-12-27 20:32:07 <r2p2> ah I see, looking forward...
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343 2012-12-27 22:25:26 <StarenseN> where & how bitcoin network will find its GH/s when all 21M BTC will be mined ?
344 2012-12-27 22:26:40 <sipa> fees
345 2012-12-27 22:27:48 <Joric> StarenseN, approx year 2140
346 2012-12-27 22:28:02 <StarenseN> my question was long term view Joric
347 2012-12-27 22:28:16 <StarenseN> so in 2140 is my question
348 2012-12-27 22:28:19 <StarenseN> :)
349 2012-12-27 22:28:30 <sipa> your question is why miners would keep mining if there is no subsidy left?
350 2012-12-27 22:28:37 <StarenseN> yes
351 2012-12-27 22:28:42 <sipa> the answer is: transaction fees, probably
352 2012-12-27 22:29:24 <StarenseN> core code is editable ?
353 2012-12-27 22:29:37 <upb> nope, it's read only
354 2012-12-27 22:29:45 <Joric> edible
355 2012-12-27 22:29:48 <sipa> you can see the source code, and you can submit patches
356 2012-12-27 22:30:07 <StarenseN> so is it possible to add transaction fees ?
357 2012-12-27 22:30:20 <sipa> "add" ?
358 2012-12-27 22:30:25 <JWU42> I love me some source code with gravy ;)
359 2012-12-27 22:30:27 <sipa> and you can verify (though it's a rather complicated process) that the released binaries are compiled from the published source code
360 2012-12-27 22:31:02 <StarenseN> add transaction fees for the miners in the code
361 2012-12-27 22:31:12 <sipa> it's been there since day one
362 2012-12-27 22:31:18 <sipa> it's part of the design
363 2012-12-27 22:31:19 <StarenseN> alright
364 2012-12-27 22:31:23 <StarenseN> didn't know that
365 2012-12-27 22:31:40 <Luke-Jr> StarenseN: you might want to read the paper before asking questions ;)
366 2012-12-27 22:31:43 <kjj> just out of curiosity, where did you learn about mining that didn't mention that?
367 2012-12-27 22:32:18 <StarenseN> i will but my english is not perfect to understand that technical paper
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369 2012-12-27 22:33:01 <StarenseN> i didn't learned about mining, i wanted to understand globaly the dynamic
370 2012-12-27 22:33:17 <StarenseN> thanks
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376 2012-12-27 22:37:12 <Joric> theres really no any rules everything can be changed over time just look at all those BIPs correct me if i'm wrong
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378 2012-12-27 22:37:46 <sipa> Joric: some changes require a hard fork, which hasn't ever happened
379 2012-12-27 22:38:19 <sipa> but if near-everyone agrees on something, and there's enough time to roll it out, sure everything can change
380 2012-12-27 22:38:35 <Luke-Jr> Joric: changing the total available Bitcoins ever would be a violation of the social contract we all agreed to
381 2012-12-27 22:38:45 <Luke-Jr> sipa: that Feb change was a hardfork
382 2012-12-27 22:39:19 <sipa> Luke-Jr: meh, p2p level, not block validity level
383 2012-12-27 22:39:39 <Luke-Jr> true
384 2012-12-27 22:39:43 <sipa> in a way that's a hardfork, but it's hardly as dangerous as a block validity change
385 2012-12-27 22:40:02 <sipa> all that is needed is one client that is compatible with old and new nodes, and the network would have remained connected
386 2012-12-27 22:40:03 <andytoshi> sipa, how can you verify that the source matches the binary?
387 2012-12-27 22:40:25 <sipa> andytoshi: gitian; you can redo the deterministic build, to obtain a byte-for-byte identical binary
388 2012-12-27 22:40:28 <Joric> StarenseN, especially the policy about fees 0.0005 is totally random and will be changed thats for sure
389 2012-12-27 22:40:33 <andytoshi> oh, thanks
390 2012-12-27 22:40:35 <Luke-Jr> anyhow, IMO it'd be unjust to change the final Bitcoin count without unanimous agreement from all coin-holders
391 2012-12-27 22:41:03 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i assume that's something almost everyone agrees about, indeed
392 2012-12-27 22:42:08 <kjj> even if a large majority of the world wanted that, they'd have a hell of a time with it.  Most of the early adopters are of a libertarian-ish bent, and we would dump our holdings in their crappy fork the next day
393 2012-12-27 22:42:18 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
394 2012-12-27 22:42:29 <kjj> and keep using the one true blockchain
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398 2012-12-27 22:45:46 <Joric> one true blockchain to rule them all one blockchain to find them
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401 2012-12-27 22:46:35 <D34TH> one blockchain to pay them all and in satoshi bind them
402 2012-12-27 22:46:56 <D34TH> s/satoshi/getwork ?
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405 2012-12-27 22:48:49 <Joric> i honestly thought it's all 'mathematically sealed' or something finds out nope it's not
406 2012-12-27 22:49:08 <kjj> which part?
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408 2012-12-27 22:49:17 <Luke-Jr> D34TH: getwork is deprecated by GBT
409 2012-12-27 22:49:28 <D34TH> Luke-Jr, it is too long
410 2012-12-27 22:49:31 <D34TH> to type
411 2012-12-27 22:49:37 <Luke-Jr> O.o
412 2012-12-27 22:49:50 <Luke-Jr> GBT <-- 4 keys
413 2012-12-27 22:50:17 <D34TH> len("GetBlockTemplate") != 4
414 2012-12-27 22:50:28 <Luke-Jr> that's what abbreviations are for
415 2012-12-27 22:50:48 <Eliel_> Luke-Jr: I see no problem changing the final bitcoin count, as long as it's implemented as scaling everyone's amounts equally :P
416 2012-12-27 22:51:09 <Luke-Jr> Eliel_: that's not changing the final amount, just making it divisible differently ;)
417 2012-12-27 22:52:06 <Joric> yeah there's no real need in that while bitcoin is divisible
418 2012-12-27 22:52:06 <Eliel_> yes, that's why it's acceptable. It doesn't effectively make any real changes.
419 2012-12-27 22:52:40 <Joric> yet some ppl apparently believe it's not
420 2012-12-27 22:54:04 <Joric> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FPebAr7ST-E#t=1577s <- "it has a deflationist nature because money tend to dissapear from bitcoin so it cannot work in the long run" :)
421 2012-12-27 22:54:15 <Joric> they all look so serious
422 2012-12-27 22:54:35 <kjj> meh.  I haven't seen even a single good argument in support of the "deflation is bad" theory
423 2012-12-27 22:58:59 <Luke-Jr> me either, it seems those people are always socialist in some way
424 2012-12-27 22:59:12 <Luke-Jr> comes down to some "saving money is bad" idea
425 2012-12-27 23:00:05 <Luke-Jr> (and if you punish the guy saving money, you basically enforce wage slavery and government welfare)
426 2012-12-27 23:00:15 <sipa> well "it discourages spending" is a reasonable argument, in my opinion
427 2012-12-27 23:00:29 <andytoshi> it discourages consumption, you mean?
428 2012-12-27 23:00:31 <sipa> doesn't mean it's right or weighs up against other things
429 2012-12-27 23:00:48 <Joric> haha well said andytoshi
430 2012-12-27 23:00:48 <sipa> i'm no economist and try to avoid making economic statements
431 2012-12-27 23:00:52 * andytoshi goes looking up that 'hayek triangle' paper
432 2012-12-27 23:01:11 <andytoshi> ditto sipa, but i think i have a good argument about that spending comment
433 2012-12-27 23:01:23 <sipa> bitcoin is technology, and as such it may or may not provide a benefit to society, and i like working on that technology
434 2012-12-27 23:01:24 <andytoshi> if i can find it..
435 2012-12-27 23:01:35 <etotheipi_> and the current system discourages savings... yet we always tout the value of savings
436 2012-12-27 23:01:41 <etotheipi_> yet people still save
437 2012-12-27 23:01:44 <Luke-Jr> "it discourages spending" is only a problem for getting Bitcoin adopted IMO :P
438 2012-12-27 23:01:51 <etotheipi_> and consume
439 2012-12-27 23:02:00 <Joric> by a strange coincedence i have a bachelor degree in economics + a cs masters degree )
440 2012-12-27 23:02:04 <Luke-Jr> and in theory, we're supposed to be inflationary during adoption
441 2012-12-27 23:02:27 <Luke-Jr> (obviously that doesn't seem to be working out quite that way)
442 2012-12-27 23:02:59 <andytoshi> on "investment versus consumption",
443 2012-12-27 23:03:01 <andytoshi> http://www.auburn.edu/~garriro/b3beyond.htm
444 2012-12-27 23:03:20 <andytoshi> with the usual caveats about economists drawing straight lines and pretending they represent economic things..
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446 2012-12-27 23:06:16 <andytoshi> that article is a bit hard to read..essentially it says that there is a continuum between capital goods (with long-term payoff) and consumption goods (with immediate payoff), and the effect of monetary policy is to shift the distribution of economic activity along that continuum
447 2012-12-27 23:06:44 <andytoshi> so the interest rate represents "how forward-looking society is"
448 2012-12-27 23:08:14 <andytoshi> once you frame the argument that way, you can then claim that a forward-looking society will tend to do research and infrastructure, and therefore become much wealthier than a consumption-based society
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450 2012-12-27 23:08:38 <kjj> but that's making a silly assumption.  the symptom is not the cause
451 2012-12-27 23:09:11 <Luke-Jr> yeah, that reasoning sounds suspect to me too .<
452 2012-12-27 23:09:26 <andytoshi> well, if you're controlling the interest rate, you switch cause and effect
453 2012-12-27 23:10:12 <andytoshi> or rather, the interest rate is always correlated to the investment-vs-consumption continuum -- naturally, the rate would appear as a price indicator
454 2012-12-27 23:10:15 <andytoshi> "a symptom"
455 2012-12-27 23:10:29 <andytoshi> but if you control it, you can force the investment-vs-consumption continuum
456 2012-12-27 23:11:05 <kjj> only if you assume that the interest rate is the only (or at leat the dominant) factor in society's time-preference
457 2012-12-27 23:11:31 <andytoshi> kjj, right, that's an austrian thing
458 2012-12-27 23:11:36 * Luke-Jr notes Catholics and Muslims assume interest is immoral.
459 2012-12-27 23:12:23 <andytoshi> that's what austrians say the interest rate -is- --- the price of delayed consumption
460 2012-12-27 23:13:06 <andytoshi> so the higher a price you charge for delayed consumption (i.e., the less you want to save), the shorter-term your time-preference
461 2012-12-27 23:13:54 <andytoshi> but maybe i'm way off-base -- like sipa, i'm into bitcoin for the technology, and it's been a long while since i cared about economics enough to study it
462 2012-12-27 23:15:12 <kjj> I'm a big fan of epistemology.  I tend to roll my eyes a lot when I talk to real economists
463 2012-12-27 23:15:24 <wizkid057> is there a way to tell bitcoind to rebuild it's index without pruning?
464 2012-12-27 23:15:38 <Luke-Jr> wizkid057: I don't think master even supports an unpruned index…
465 2012-12-27 23:16:06 * wizkid057 grumbles
466 2012-12-27 23:16:32 <wizkid057> going to have to write my own blkxxxx.dat parser... heh
467 2012-12-27 23:18:19 <sipa> current head has no index whatsoever
468 2012-12-27 23:18:37 <sipa> it has a pruned *copy* of the UTXO set
469 2012-12-27 23:19:00 <sipa> well, there is a block index (disk position for each block), but that's it
470 2012-12-27 23:20:31 <wizkid057> sipa: well, was just making a script that gathered some data from some old transactions, but, it seems some I cant fetch with getrawtransaction
471 2012-12-27 23:21:00 <sipa> i plan to add an (optional) transaction index for people who need that
472 2012-12-27 23:21:54 <wizkid057> hmm
473 2012-12-27 23:21:57 <wizkid057> that'd be nice :D
474 2012-12-27 23:23:06 <Joric> http://tinyurl.com/geobtc still not claimed %)
475 2012-12-27 23:23:36 <Joric> a whole 0.2 BTC
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478 2012-12-27 23:31:26 <D34TH> Joric, brainwallet right?
479 2012-12-27 23:32:35 <kjj> who made that puzzle?
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482 2012-12-27 23:37:10 <Joric> D34TH, i'd link to https://github.com/bitcoinjs but seems theres no direct link to js
483 2012-12-27 23:37:14 <D34TH> Joric, i keep getting a different btc addr than the one it says
484 2012-12-27 23:37:42 <Joric> kjj, the buriedkeys guy
485 2012-12-27 23:38:14 <Joric> D34TH, prob 5 across is wrong idk really
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488 2012-12-27 23:39:14 <Joric> it won't load from https://raw.github.com/bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib/master/build/bitcoinjs-min.js i tried
489 2012-12-27 23:39:20 <kjj> if you are confident about the S, then there are only about 2^33 possible other values...
490 2012-12-27 23:41:39 <Joric> tried bruteforcing with 5m geo database no luck
491 2012-12-27 23:41:51 <kjj> how about the ordering?
492 2012-12-27 23:41:58 <D34TH> holy crap
493 2012-12-27 23:42:02 <D34TH> i accidentally 1337addr
494 2012-12-27 23:43:04 <kjj> by ordering, I mean, are you sure that the sequence is the clue sequence, and not the sequence the answers are found from top down?
495 2012-12-27 23:46:36 <Joric> kjj, yeah, i guess, author said theres a few wrong words https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=80115.20
496 2012-12-27 23:48:54 <kjj> he's not kidding about world-class hard.  the matrix is sparse, and the clues are ambiguous
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