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5 2012-12-28 00:27:55 <gmaxwell> 14:22 < sipa> Luke-Jr: meh, p2p level, not block validity level
6 2012-12-28 00:28:04 <gmaxwell> ^ I ran bridge nodes for that for a while.
7 2012-12-28 00:28:14 <gmaxwell> You can't bridge a real hard fork. :P
8 2012-12-28 00:28:15 <lianj> someone at 29c3?
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20 2012-12-28 00:51:08 <sipa> weird, -flto gitian build works for bitcoin-qt, but not for bitcoind
21 2012-12-28 00:51:19 <sipa> complains about some boost stuff that's defined twice
22 2012-12-28 00:52:05 <jgarzik> ditto here
23 2012-12-28 00:52:16 <jgarzik> (at least the bitcoind-not-working bit)
24 2012-12-28 00:52:44 <sipa> ?
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55 2012-12-28 02:40:19 <Leco> Hi, will be possible edit the shared wallets? https://moqups.com/gavinandresen/no8mzUDB/p:a8ef81fa8
56 2012-12-28 02:41:27 <Leco> After isso create the shared wallet I can edit it? Add more participants...
57 2012-12-28 02:41:39 <Leco> After i
58 2012-12-28 02:42:32 <Leco> Or will need to delete it and create another shared wallet?
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60 2012-12-28 02:52:02 <Luke-Jr> what is this website that refuses to use standards?
61 2012-12-28 02:56:49 mykhal has joined
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63 2012-12-28 02:59:18 <gmaxwell> Leco: the rules about the wallet are baked into the addresses the coins are assigned to.
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65 2012-12-28 03:00:03 <gmaxwell> Leco: so, no, you couldn't edit itâ perhaps the software would let you e.g. change the contact information for participants or the description... but e.g. the rules to satisify it would likely be fixed.
66 2012-12-28 03:00:13 <gmaxwell> Leco: but thats okay, just create a new one and transfer the funds.
67 2012-12-28 03:00:40 <Leco> Understand. Thanks
68 2012-12-28 03:00:50 * Luke-Jr ponders
69 2012-12-28 03:01:14 <Luke-Jr> in theory, it might be possible to construct a script that can be changed <.<
70 2012-12-28 03:02:02 <Luke-Jr> have it read the spending keys from outside the script itself, plus a signature, and verify the signature of those keys is one (or more) of the original ones <.<
71 2012-12-28 03:02:07 maaku has joined
72 2012-12-28 03:02:56 <Luke-Jr> but probably better to use some payment API for that kind of detail IMO
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75 2012-12-28 03:07:13 <Leco> I'm not a device, just an user. I ask: the shared wallets thing is something hard to develop? We will see it soon? Appear an amazing thing
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77 2012-12-28 03:07:30 <Leco> I'm not a developer
78 2012-12-28 03:08:05 <Leco> And my English is not good.
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95 2012-12-28 04:21:47 <gmaxwell> Odd: -salvagewallet fails on a totally normal and valid wallet because db.verify returns DB_VERIFY_BAD. Man page says,
96 2012-12-28 04:21:51 <gmaxwell> The DB->verify function returns a non-zero error value on failure, 0 on success, and DB_VERIFY_BAD if a database is corrupted. When the DB_SALVAGE flag is specified, the DB_VERIFY_BAD return means that all key/data pairs in the file may not have been successfully output.
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98 2012-12-28 04:26:29 <stealth222> I would love to have some better exception handling in main and init
99 2012-12-28 04:26:53 <stealth222> a bunch of functions that just return false on failure and do a printf somewhere
100 2012-12-28 04:27:36 <stealth222> further up the call stack you have a better sense for the context of the error
101 2012-12-28 04:27:45 <gmaxwell> ...
102 2012-12-28 04:28:50 <stealth222> if you go very deep into the call stack, you have minute details of the exact call that produced the error - but you don't necessarily understand *why* the call was being made in the first place
103 2012-12-28 04:28:57 <gmaxwell> Introducing a bunch of C++ exceptions is a great way to make the code incomprehensible. There is a good reason google pretty much bans them outright in their own coding guidelines for C++.
104 2012-12-28 04:29:23 <stealth222> really? I actually find that when exceptions are well-used, it makes code a heck of a lot more readable
105 2012-12-28 04:29:53 <gmaxwell> In _java_ perhaps.
106 2012-12-28 04:30:15 <stealth222> how's java better in this regard?
107 2012-12-28 04:31:29 <stealth222> perhaps in that it forces you to declare your intentions up front a little more
108 2012-12-28 04:31:47 <stealth222> in C++, you can throw any kind of object at any time
109 2012-12-28 04:32:04 <stealth222> Java forces you to use a throwable object and to declare a method to throw that kind of object
110 2012-12-28 04:32:44 <stealth222> when abused, exceptions are ugly - but that's true for anything in C++, really
111 2012-12-28 04:32:50 <gmaxwell> A couple of waysâ it's clear what exceptions you may need to deal with or not deal withâ and because you can generally deal with things you don't understand (e.g in cases where you can handle all errors generically). Also, the memory management model in java makes it so that exceptions don't accidentally produce leaks.
112 2012-12-28 04:33:17 <stealth222> C++ accidentally produces leaks with or without exceptions
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114 2012-12-28 04:33:43 <stealth222> that's the price to pay for better control over memory management
115 2012-12-28 04:34:16 <gmaxwell> Yes, exceptions help. Basically in C++ your code has to be prepared to cope with the consequences of exceptions from below, but at the same time there is no good way to even know about them, unless you have the whole codebase in your mind.
116 2012-12-28 04:34:42 <gmaxwell> Meh. It's a price you pay even when you're not using it. But I didn't mean to start ragging on C++ in general.
117 2012-12-28 04:34:50 <stealth222> lol
118 2012-12-28 04:35:37 <gmaxwell> (look at the horrific fragmentation problems we have with bitcoin right nowâ just because we use a bunch of heap allocated container object on small things all over the place... we're close to running into address space issues on 32 bit systems due to the fragmentation with glibc malloc)
119 2012-12-28 04:36:02 <stealth222> we could be using our own internal memory pools
120 2012-12-28 04:36:43 <stealth222> but generally speaking, unless you're doing systems level programming you probably don't want to deal with that crap
121 2012-12-28 04:37:33 <stealth222> in any case, 32 bit systems are the past :p
122 2012-12-28 04:38:21 <gmaxwell> And replace fragmentation with leaks, pool corruption.. and different kinds of fragmentation problems! :P Switching to another malloc implementation solves it in a more safe way than pools. I assume if this becomes a problem thats what we'll do, I've already tested it.
123 2012-12-28 04:38:58 <gmaxwell> stealth222: surpringly common still because of mostly foolish reasons, though some good onesâ e.g. they're common on VPSs because they have lower base memory usage.
124 2012-12-28 04:40:08 <stealth222> machines are cheap, anyway. it's good programmers that are hard to come by
125 2012-12-28 04:41:06 <stealth222> today's programming languages are mostly designed to let poor programmers do something useful :p
126 2012-12-28 04:41:08 <gmaxwell> Fortunately replacing malloc is super cheap to do and test.
127 2012-12-28 04:41:28 <gmaxwell> http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/cppguide.xml?showone=Exceptions#Exceptions < for your edification (the clicky arrow expands it and gives their justification)
128 2012-12-28 04:41:43 <stealth222> cool, thanks for the link
129 2012-12-28 04:44:34 <gmaxwell> hmph. and after fixing salvage to trudge through... Error: Cannot initialize keypool :-/
130 2012-12-28 04:44:37 <stealth222> "When you add a throw statement to an existing function, you must examine all of its transitive callers." - one could argue that when you call a function that might throw an exception, you should probably be catching it somewhere
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133 2012-12-28 04:46:28 <jgarzik> neat C++ style guide
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135 2012-12-28 04:46:50 <jgarzik> I generally agree with their "do not use <this feature> advice". They turn off a lot of stuff.
136 2012-12-28 04:46:52 <stealth222> I don't think that argument is very persuasive. If you are returning error codes and the caller doesn't check for them, it's arguably even worse since two levels up the call stack the code will have absolutely no idea what failed
137 2012-12-28 04:47:28 <gmaxwell> stealth222: it's really easy to violate that w/ C++ though. Unless you start packing metadata about exceptions into all your function/method names (and god knows how you cope with overridden operators). :P
138 2012-12-28 04:48:31 <gmaxwell> stealth222: but at least the control flow around a return code is explicit. You can clearly see if you check a return or not, and you can annotate function so that the compile will fail if you ignore the return! (using language extensions that everyone has)
139 2012-12-28 04:49:15 <stealth222> in languages like java, where methods must declare what they might throw, you can also do that I suppose
140 2012-12-28 04:49:55 <gmaxwell> Correct. Yea, my complaint was about C++ exceptions specifically. I think java ones are more safe for quite a few reasons.
141 2012-12-28 04:50:23 <jgarzik> C++ exceptions infect unrelated code. your AccountingSystem class hierarchy suddenly might need to be aware of LowLevelDB::ExceptionFoo. it's infectious outside their domain.
142 2012-12-28 04:52:01 <stealth222> one could set C++ guidelines that require stating explicitly what exceptions a function might throw and making sure that all callers either catch them themselves or make it clear to their callers that they might have to catch them
143 2012-12-28 04:52:06 <gmaxwell> ::shrugs:: In any case, I am totally the wrong guy to be arguing this. I am a C coder. My knoweldge of C++ comes mostly from a bit of morbid curiosity over the piles of bodies from my fellow coders slain by it. :P I do know that I feel evel less confident that I can write safe and correct code in the presence of C++ exceptions than I can around many of the other C++ features I don't much care for (most of them).
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145 2012-12-28 04:52:47 <stealth222> it seems like it's largely a matter of style - and if google already has considerable codebase that doesn't take this approach, I can understand their dislike of integrating code that does
146 2012-12-28 04:53:30 <gmaxwell> stealth222: yea, but I'm not sure how you'd really go about that short of mangling a description of them into the method namesâ and you can't even do that for operators. (though operators don't have return values either⦠you're you're kinda screwed wrt error handling on them)
147 2012-12-28 04:55:14 <gmaxwell> stealth222: the reason I say mangling the names.. e.g. say I'm moving some code from foo() where it calls baz() to bar(). I didn't (recently) write foo or baz. The chance that I'll miss the fact that baz can throw something that foo was safe relative to but bar is not is quite high.
148 2012-12-28 04:57:01 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: personally, I rename functions when they change behaviours in notable ways; even if that means just appending a '2'
149 2012-12-28 04:57:12 <gmaxwell> (alsoâ the exception prohibition isn't a unique to google thing. At my prior dayjob we had a product get exceptions barred midlife.. (later it was replaced with a rewrite in C as part of merging it into another product))
150 2012-12-28 04:57:17 <stealth222> appending a 2? lol
151 2012-12-28 04:58:41 <gmaxwell> One of the major arguments people make against statically typed languages is that static typing doesn't actually achieve correctness simply because the type doesn't express everything relevant about thing thing in question. So doing stuff like renaming things when their functionality changes makes some sense I guess. It makes you go check all the callers at least.
152 2012-12-28 04:58:43 <stealth222> anyhow, Google's main argument is that they already have a lot of code that's not exception-friendly...but if you start a new project with exception-friendliness in mind, it's actually a good style.
153 2012-12-28 05:00:00 <stealth222> it's not that C++ exceptions are intrinsically bad - it's that if you are mixing a bunch of different styles in a single project, the parts that were not written with exception-handling in mind will have problems getting along with the parts that were
154 2012-12-28 05:00:24 <gmaxwell> I'm unconvinced by your read on it. The need to be hyper vigilant about invisible behavior is true no matter where you start. (I worry a lot about implict behavior in bitcoin, because it could potentially hide protocol rules)
155 2012-12-28 05:00:49 <stealth222> I'm just paraphrasing their "Decision"
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158 2012-12-28 05:04:40 <stealth222> I really don't like having code that reads bError = TryFoo(); if (bError) { DoSomethingAboutFooGoingWrongWhichAlmostWillNeverHappenButTakesABunchOfLines(); } bError = TryWhatAlmostAlwaysIsDoneAfterFoo(); if (bError) { AgainDoSomethingWhichTakesABunchOfLinesOfCodeAndMaybeEvenCallsAFewMoreFunctionsAlongTheWayEvenThoughThisHappensOnceInAMillion(); } ...
159 2012-12-28 05:05:20 <stealth222> By the time I'm finished reading one of the error clauses, I forgot what I was trying to do in the first place
160 2012-12-28 05:07:57 <gmaxwell> You can also error |= TryFoo() ... if (error) ... so long as you make sure that the intermediate points and overall behavior are safe if foo errored, which actually looks somewhat like exception safe code, except the behavior is all explicit.
161 2012-12-28 05:10:44 <stealth222> or you can do void TryFoo() { if (!Foo()) throw foo_failed; } void TryBar() { if (!Bar()) throw bar_failed; } try { TryFoo(); TryBar(); } catch (foo_failed) { ... } catch (bar_failed) { ... } :)
162 2012-12-28 05:12:30 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: some things, I wish would behave more exceptionally :P
163 2012-12-28 05:12:34 <Luke-Jr> like memory allocation failures
164 2012-12-28 05:13:07 <gmaxwell> hah.. let me show you what I typed but didn't send a bit ago.
165 2012-12-28 05:13:11 <gmaxwell> It also depends on what you mean by error. Most real errors are actually things you want to address. The things you don't want to address is the impossible stuff, like malloc failing. But if thats happened its unlikely that exceptions are going to save you.
166 2012-12-28 05:13:26 <stealth222> or even better: void TryFoo(); void TryBar(); try { TryFoo(); TryBar(); } catch (foo_failed) { ... } catch (bar_failed) { ... } void TryFoo() { if (!Foo()) throw foo_failed; } void TryBar() { if (!Bar()) throw bar_failed; }
167 2012-12-28 05:13:41 <stealth222> leave all the tedious error handling which is almost never done at the end :)
168 2012-12-28 05:15:40 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: if you want you can just wrap malloc with safe_malloc. safe_malloc does this: ret=malloc() if(!ret){fprintf(stderr,"crap\n");abort();}} then you can write assuming that safemalloc never fails.
169 2012-12-28 05:16:07 <gmaxwell> And just wrap your whole system in a restart loop. And design it so it can recover safely and quickly after a crash.
170 2012-12-28 05:16:11 <Luke-Jr> yeah, would be nice if there was a standard function that did that <.<
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172 2012-12-28 05:17:21 <gmaxwell> You can be extra snazzy and do #define safe_malloc(x) safe_malloc_impl((x),__FILE,__LINE__) and have your dying gasp actually spit out which malloc failed and how much it was trying to malloc. :P
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175 2012-12-28 05:18:21 <Luke-Jr> âº
176 2012-12-28 05:19:00 * Luke-Jr fires up the GPU miners since his heat pump isn't keeping up <.<
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179 2012-12-28 05:21:34 <gmaxwell> I'm a big fan of http://static.usenix.org/events/hotos03/tech/candea.html but I guess it harder for user programs that have a bunch of user visible UI state that would be costly to snapshot all the time.
180 2012-12-28 05:23:29 <Luke-Jr> there's always cryopid (or whatever it was renamed to)
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182 2012-12-28 05:25:24 <gmaxwell> I'd think more highly of using process snapshots to recover from failure state if not for things like cosmic rays and such potentially corrupting your persistant state. Otherwise you could have start-once software: software which you only ever start once and can never restartâ only recover from whole process snapshots later. :P
183 2012-12-28 05:26:06 <Luke-Jr> yeah, the practical problem is changing the code⦠;)
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185 2012-12-28 05:29:03 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: how useful have you found the python console in eloipool? I've often felt like I've wanted something like that in things... gdb is kind of intrusive and not as powerful as python.
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187 2012-12-28 05:29:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that is the primary reason it's still Python; I love being able to interact with the code in realtime without anything stopping
188 2012-12-28 05:30:16 <Luke-Jr> I used to hotpatch it, but not much since I added the save/restore of state
189 2012-12-28 05:30:41 <Luke-Jr> if only GDB allowed interacting without stopping the program, I'd probably port to C++ :P
190 2012-12-28 05:31:25 <Luke-Jr> (or even allowed stopping only during the execution of commands once typedâ¦)
191 2012-12-28 05:33:46 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you can attach gdb from the commandline and drop right back out. I've done this many many times on production systems.
192 2012-12-28 05:34:17 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yes, but then it stops the program while it loads all the debug symbols for every command :/
193 2012-12-28 05:35:56 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: so another thing you can do is fork() and then have the fork dump core (or just have the child break and attach to that) and you get an inactive snapshot to inspect.
194 2012-12-28 05:36:23 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: gdb won't let you run stuff when you load a core dump :P
195 2012-12-28 05:37:01 <Luke-Jr> eg: print TallyUpStatisticsAndPrintThem()
196 2012-12-28 05:37:03 <gmaxwell> Thats right, though you can inspect memory. â the fork+attach would, though I've never actually created anything that does that.
197 2012-12-28 05:37:26 <gmaxwell> (the fork and core is something I've used in production too)
198 2012-12-28 05:39:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: still, gotta admit it'd be nice if gdb could just attach, spawn a new thread, and let the others run free
199 2012-12-28 05:42:44 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: ever used non-stop mode?
200 2012-12-28 05:44:46 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ?
201 2012-12-28 05:44:57 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: http://sourceware.org/gdb/current/onlinedocs/gdb/Non_002dStop-Mode.html
202 2012-12-28 05:46:02 <Luke-Jr> wow
203 2012-12-28 05:46:08 <Luke-Jr> even that target-async sounds handy!
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207 2012-12-28 05:48:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: thanks!
208 2012-12-28 05:50:56 <stealth222> here, check this out: http://pastebin.com/JrLgj1nf
209 2012-12-28 05:50:57 <stealth222> :)
210 2012-12-28 05:52:22 <MC1984> someone put a gpu miner on the testnet recently?
211 2012-12-28 05:55:42 <gmaxwell> stealth222: oh shit! you've invented goto!
212 2012-12-28 05:55:52 <gmaxwell> :P
213 2012-12-28 05:55:55 <stealth222> haha
214 2012-12-28 05:56:25 <gmaxwell> (though tha asm produced by goto is a lot nicer. :P)
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216 2012-12-28 05:59:44 <stealth222> except that goto doesn't automatically break when it reaches the end of the block statement
217 2012-12-28 05:59:55 <stealth222> although that could be done with one more goto :)
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221 2012-12-28 06:08:57 <gmaxwell> god knows you could do some awful thing with macros to compose the labels so that it did.
222 2012-12-28 06:10:52 <stealth222> gmaxwell: check this out... http://pastebin.com/rf5K15rC
223 2012-12-28 06:11:06 <stealth222> lol
224 2012-12-28 06:11:23 <gmaxwell> haha!
225 2012-12-28 06:11:23 <stealth222> actually, that's not strictly correct
226 2012-12-28 06:11:36 <stealth222> the FINALLY clause could execute even if we did catch the exception
227 2012-12-28 06:11:44 <stealth222> or would always execute
228 2012-12-28 06:11:57 <stealth222> just gotta change that text
229 2012-12-28 06:12:58 <stealth222> err, no, sorry - it was right :)
230 2012-12-28 06:15:26 <stealth222> god, I'm such a nerd sometimes :p
231 2012-12-28 06:19:18 <stealth222> if I worked at Google, I would do this kind of shit just to piss them off :p
232 2012-12-28 06:22:10 <gmaxwell> stealth222: next you can switch to setjmp. :P
233 2012-12-28 06:22:17 <stealth222> heh
234 2012-12-28 06:22:26 <gmaxwell> then you can even create functions for your 'exception' handling.
235 2012-12-28 06:24:24 <Luke-Jr> libsee (C) uses setjmp for exceptions <.<
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240 2012-12-28 06:47:19 <stealth222> this one even passes error codes to the catch clauses: http://pastebin.com/gQRQGEBy
241 2012-12-28 06:49:54 <stealth222> I didn't tab Bob and Charlie enough on that one...
242 2012-12-28 06:50:01 <stealth222> for the sake of aesthetics: http://pastebin.com/V2qGCnSC
243 2012-12-28 06:50:14 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
244 2012-12-28 06:58:54 <stealth222> this one's more correct: http://pastebin.com/rqnQW0vd
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249 2012-12-28 07:19:55 <stealth222> is BitcoinPullTester down?
250 2012-12-28 07:25:26 porquilho has joined
251 2012-12-28 07:25:33 <porquilho> hello
252 2012-12-28 07:25:44 <porquilho> im reading bitcoin.pdf
253 2012-12-28 07:25:50 <porquilho> is the process already modified a lot since 2009 ?
254 2012-12-28 07:25:54 <porquilho> or does it still the same
255 2012-12-28 07:26:42 <stealth222> the protocol is essentially unchanged
256 2012-12-28 07:27:01 <porquilho> ok
257 2012-12-28 07:27:36 <porquilho> I dont know nothing about cryptography is there any pdf to read more simple than bitcoin.pdf
258 2012-12-28 07:27:54 <porquilho> i have hard time understand it
259 2012-12-28 07:28:05 <stealth222> if you understand cryptographic hashes and digital signatures, you understand all the cryptography you need
260 2012-12-28 07:28:10 <porquilho> like work.of.proof
261 2012-12-28 07:28:58 <stealth222> proof-of-work just means "one time out of a zillion you'll guess the right number so if you've guessed five right numbers, others can assume you did five zillion operations."
262 2012-12-28 07:30:01 <stealth222> cryptographic hash functions have the property that they are relatively computationally inexpensive to perform once - but are nearly impossible to reverse
263 2012-12-28 07:30:32 <stealth222> given an output, it is practically impossible to have any clue as to what inputs can produce it
264 2012-12-28 07:30:33 <porquilho> yes i know those basics
265 2012-12-28 07:30:47 <stealth222> so in order to find an input that works, you have to keep trying and trying and trying
266 2012-12-28 07:30:57 nus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
267 2012-12-28 07:31:00 <stealth222> until you get lucky
268 2012-12-28 07:31:39 <stealth222> bitcoin is based on setting a target for the output of a hash function
269 2012-12-28 07:31:48 <stealth222> "it must be between these two values"
270 2012-12-28 07:32:11 <stealth222> miners are those who test out many inputs until they find one that works
271 2012-12-28 07:32:53 <stealth222> each of these problems points to the previous problem that was solved
272 2012-12-28 07:32:57 <stealth222> therefore forming a chain
273 2012-12-28 07:33:12 <stealth222> that's to say, each subsequent problem that's solved depends on the solution of the previous one
274 2012-12-28 07:33:21 <stealth222> which is made public upon discovery
275 2012-12-28 07:33:30 <stealth222> follow?
276 2012-12-28 07:34:13 <porquilho> im reading
277 2012-12-28 07:34:15 <porquilho> and thinking wait
278 2012-12-28 07:34:38 <gmaxwell> porquilho: the paper itself is a very high level overview, the actual behavior is considerably more complicated than the paper describes.
279 2012-12-28 07:35:32 <stealth222> so the outcome is that the work of each subsequent block adds to the work of all the blocks up to it
280 2012-12-28 07:35:52 <stealth222> and you can compute the difficulty of the entire chain
281 2012-12-28 07:36:25 <porquilho> yes
282 2012-12-28 07:36:28 <porquilho> im thinking
283 2012-12-28 07:37:16 <porquilho> it says on the paper that this checks for double-spending
284 2012-12-28 07:37:19 <porquilho> how so ?
285 2012-12-28 07:37:29 <stealth222> right - so what happens is that the chain becomes a distributed timestamp
286 2012-12-28 07:37:36 <porquilho> wait
287 2012-12-28 07:37:37 <porquilho> wait
288 2012-12-28 07:38:03 <stealth222> it becomes prohibitively expensive for any single player to get too far into the future too quickly
289 2012-12-28 07:38:29 <stealth222> that's to say, to grow the chain ahead of everyone else
290 2012-12-28 07:38:35 <stealth222> everyone's in the same race
291 2012-12-28 07:38:38 <gmaxwell> porquilho: it checks for double spending quite directly. Each transaction specifies which prior trasaction it spends, so the system simply doesn't allow the same transaction to be spent twice in the chain.
292 2012-12-28 07:38:54 <stealth222> right, so the point is that everyone ends up agreeing on the transaction order
293 2012-12-28 07:39:09 <stealth222> and if two transactions conflict, whichever one confirms first makes the other one void
294 2012-12-28 07:39:30 <porquilho> but if the pervious problem that was solved is made public (the solution) upon discovery it means that one single player can pretend it was him who discovered it
295 2012-12-28 07:40:03 <stealth222> no, because whoever discovers it also sticks in a public key to coins which only they can unlock with their private key
296 2012-12-28 07:40:25 <stealth222> so they can always prove later that it was them who did it
297 2012-12-28 07:40:36 <gmaxwell> porquilho: the solutions are based on their their complete contentâ so you can't change anything about them without invalidating the solution... thats what the hash functions achieve, they make small fingerprints out of data.
298 2012-12-28 07:41:05 <porquilho> reading/thinking
299 2012-12-28 07:42:18 <stealth222> the problem that's solved involves 1) the previous block, 2) new transactions that have been seen since the last block, and 3) a special transaction which the discoverer of the block can freely construct
300 2012-12-28 07:42:29 <stealth222> which allows them to claim the reward
301 2012-12-28 07:43:27 <stealth222> by solving the problem, you're essentially timestamping the existence of all this information at that time
302 2012-12-28 07:44:04 <stealth222> so you can say with practical certainty "at this time we knew of these blocks, we knew of these new transactions, and I was the one who solved it"
303 2012-12-28 07:44:12 <stealth222> and everyone has to believe you
304 2012-12-28 07:45:27 <porquilho> this is very interesting
305 2012-12-28 07:45:46 <porquilho> im still thinking wait
306 2012-12-28 07:46:05 <porquilho> when im thinking i want to see facebook and gmail
307 2012-12-28 07:46:06 <stealth222> in order to contradict you, someone would have to replace the block that you solved by solving a competing block and outgrowing the chain that your block is in
308 2012-12-28 07:46:29 <stealth222> and this becomes computationally intractable very quickly
309 2012-12-28 07:47:02 <stealth222> not only must they replace YOUR block - but also all the blocks that depend on your block
310 2012-12-28 07:47:06 <stealth222> all the ones that came after
311 2012-12-28 07:47:29 <stealth222> so as time passes and more people build on top of your block, it becomes exponentially less probable that someone will manage to replace your block
312 2012-12-28 07:48:04 <stealth222> anyhow, that's the essence of how cryptographic hash functions are used in bitcoin
313 2012-12-28 07:48:16 <stealth222> and the other part is signatures
314 2012-12-28 07:48:36 <stealth222> which you use to prove that it was you who broadcast a transaction or solved a block
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316 2012-12-28 07:51:40 <porquilho> im here
317 2012-12-28 07:51:46 <porquilho> i was re-reading the pdf
318 2012-12-28 07:51:49 <porquilho> with this new information
319 2012-12-28 07:51:50 <porquilho> wait
320 2012-12-28 07:53:41 <porquilho> I think i understand now better
321 2012-12-28 07:53:52 <porquilho> thanks stealth222
322 2012-12-28 07:53:59 <porquilho> gmaxwell
323 2012-12-28 07:53:59 <stealth222> np :)
324 2012-12-28 07:54:01 <porquilho> and gmaxwell
325 2012-12-28 07:54:57 <porquilho> 'Nodes accept the block only if all transactions in it are valid and not already spent'
326 2012-12-28 07:55:12 <porquilho> how do they know that it was not already spent ?
327 2012-12-28 07:55:41 <gmaxwell> they keep track of transactions in a local database.
328 2012-12-28 07:55:41 <stealth222> every transaction can claim one or more outputs of previous transactions
329 2012-12-28 07:55:51 <porquilho> becase it there is a version of chain with it ?
330 2012-12-28 07:55:58 <stealth222> yes
331 2012-12-28 07:56:13 <stealth222> and once the output is spent, no transaction claiming it is considered valid
332 2012-12-28 07:56:32 <stealth222> in order to determine which transaction was first, the block chain is use
333 2012-12-28 07:56:35 <stealth222> *used
334 2012-12-28 07:57:08 <stealth222> once one of the two conflicting transactions enters the block chain, no further blocks can contain the second one
335 2012-12-28 07:57:24 <stealth222> so only one or the other ever makes it into the block chain and becomes official
336 2012-12-28 07:57:28 <stealth222> the other one is eventually forgoten
337 2012-12-28 07:57:55 <porquilho> nice
338 2012-12-28 07:58:11 <porquilho> i think i got it
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353 2012-12-28 08:51:59 <forrestv> anyone understand the endianness in stratum?
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362 2012-12-28 09:16:30 <Luke-Jr> forrestv: I don't recall anything too unusual, why?
363 2012-12-28 09:17:26 <forrestv> Luke-Jr, it copied getwork's habit of preswapping groups of 4 bytes
364 2012-12-28 09:17:55 <forrestv> i guess i'd hoped that it didn't so hard that i didn't see it doing it
365 2012-12-28 09:17:57 <forrestv> :P
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368 2012-12-28 09:19:44 <Luke-Jr> XD
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398 2012-12-28 13:01:19 swulf-- has joined
399 2012-12-28 13:02:16 <swulf--> I've a couple (hopefully simple) technical questions about the btc network implementation: 1- does every message/packet that gets passed to a node get passed on to every peer the node is connected to for each packet? 2- what mechanism does the bitcoin client use to make sure a packet/message reaches all nodes?
400 2012-12-28 13:03:40 <Luke-Jr> 1- no, 2- no
401 2012-12-28 13:03:58 <Luke-Jr> 3- read the code
402 2012-12-28 13:04:12 <swulf--> i'd be happy to -- could you point me to the relevant portions of the code?
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404 2012-12-28 13:04:40 <Luke-Jr> actually, reading the code might be a bad idea <.<
405 2012-12-28 13:04:49 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification is handy tho
406 2012-12-28 13:05:13 <swulf--> as for number 2- does it just send packets onto a random subset of the connected peers?
407 2012-12-28 13:06:03 <swulf--> i'll check the wiki for now
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415 2012-12-28 13:27:35 <sipa> swulf--: it is a gossip network
416 2012-12-28 13:28:08 <sipa> nodes announce tjhe presence of a new message to all their peers
417 2012-12-28 13:28:46 <sipa> when those nodes don't know the message yet, they ask for it
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419 2012-12-28 13:33:19 <MC1984> is there any way to see the stuff your node is relaying right now
420 2012-12-28 13:34:32 <sipa> -debug
421 2012-12-28 13:37:00 <MC1984> thats for the logfile
422 2012-12-28 13:37:08 <MC1984> i mean like a live display
423 2012-12-28 13:37:27 <sipa> tail -f debug.log
424 2012-12-28 13:37:28 <JWU42> tail -f debug.log ?
425 2012-12-28 13:37:33 <JWU42> ;)
426 2012-12-28 13:37:41 <sipa> or -logtoconsole
427 2012-12-28 13:37:57 <JWU42> ahh - didn't know that one sipa
428 2012-12-28 13:38:01 <JWU42> learned something new
429 2012-12-28 13:38:28 <MC1984> remember i am a windows peasant
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431 2012-12-28 13:38:36 <JWU42> heh
432 2012-12-28 13:38:55 <JWU42> sipa: those changes you suggested - 555MB with 61 connections
433 2012-12-28 13:39:00 <JWU42> so improved for sure
434 2012-12-28 13:39:09 <JWU42> the recv and send cache...
435 2012-12-28 13:39:10 dvide has quit ()
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437 2012-12-28 13:39:26 <sipa> MC1984: install cygwin :)
438 2012-12-28 13:39:52 <sipa> or better, install an operating system! *ducks*
439 2012-12-28 13:40:29 <Diapolo> sipa: *slap* ^^
440 2012-12-28 13:40:44 <sipa> haha :)
441 2012-12-28 13:40:59 <Diapolo> It would be a very nice addition, if laanwj would add such a live display to the debug console. AFAIK he mentioned that some time ago...
442 2012-12-28 13:41:20 <sipa> that'd be nice indeed
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444 2012-12-28 13:44:41 <MC1984> i will learn the linux one day i swear
445 2012-12-28 13:45:25 <Diapolo> you will hate it :)
446 2012-12-28 13:46:22 <MC1984> i fucked around with opensuse before
447 2012-12-28 13:46:36 <MC1984> its not better or worse just different
448 2012-12-28 13:46:40 <MC1984> from what i saw
449 2012-12-28 13:47:25 <Diapolo> IMHO a pure (and happy) Windows user will never convert to be a Linux-guy, although I know we need Linux and I'm fine with all people using and loving it.
450 2012-12-28 13:47:33 <MC1984> the rpc console in the gui is not the same thing as bitcoind is it
451 2012-12-28 13:47:43 <sipa> no
452 2012-12-28 13:48:19 <sipa> Diapolo: anything in particular you miss or dislike about?
453 2012-12-28 13:48:28 <sipa> (just wondering)
454 2012-12-28 13:49:16 <sipa> +it
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456 2012-12-28 13:49:49 <Diapolo> documentation, .conf files, vii and that all distros behave or are a little different ... give me a Win7 and I know where everything is ;)
457 2012-12-28 13:50:13 <Diapolo> oh and Unity is ugly too (like Win8 Metro ^^)
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459 2012-12-28 13:50:30 <sipa> meh, it's been years i had to touch a .conf file i think
460 2012-12-28 13:50:46 <sipa> and yeah, i dislike unity too :p
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462 2012-12-28 13:51:58 <Diapolo> sipa: It's that warm home feeling in Windows, which I never gathered with Linux... I guess there are no "real" issues or things I couldn't do with it in the end.
463 2012-12-28 13:52:31 <sipa> yeah, the easiest system is always the one you already know
464 2012-12-28 13:53:12 <sipa> but i'm very glad i spent some time after installing Windows ME to learn something else
465 2012-12-28 13:53:31 <Diapolo> and even if I think, I'm rather good at abstract thinking... congrats :D ME was such a sucker
466 2012-12-28 13:53:41 <MC1984> if you start someone off qith linux theyd probably feel the same way
467 2012-12-28 13:53:51 <sipa> granted, many of the problems windows had back then, are gone now
468 2012-12-28 13:54:26 <Diapolo> It's a closed source thing, which is what most open-source coders don't like, which I can understand even.
469 2012-12-28 13:54:27 <sipa> but from what i can see it's still horrible to do cross-platform development on
470 2012-12-28 13:55:08 <Diapolo> sipa: yes it was a hard road for me to setup and build all stuff for bitcoin :D
471 2012-12-28 13:55:31 <sipa> uhu, congratulations about that :p
472 2012-12-28 13:59:23 <Diapolo> and hey so some Windows stuff could be fixed, before Gitian produced garbage :-P
473 2012-12-28 14:02:01 <sipa> i don't see how your updated text about checkpoints is an improveent?
474 2012-12-28 14:02:31 <Diapolo> because I don't understand that fucking current description, as I said weeks ago :D
475 2012-12-28 14:02:33 <sipa> jeff's was maybe unclear, but at least it explained what checkpoints do
476 2012-12-28 14:03:16 <sipa> you just say "enables checkpoints" leaving it up to the reader to know what those are
477 2012-12-28 14:04:58 <Diapolo> there are many techie words, we don't explain ... but I'm fine with a description that a normal user can understand and that explanations what they are
478 2012-12-28 14:06:03 <Diapolo> it's really not about just changing stuff to change it, but I hate to be simply ignored, when I make a comment on Github, which I feel is "important" you know
479 2012-12-28 14:06:16 <sipa> how about "only accepy block chain matching built-in checkpoints"
480 2012-12-28 14:06:52 <sipa> i know, i agree that if it's unclear, it should be changed
481 2012-12-28 14:08:00 <Diapolo> sounds better, let me "translate" only allow a block chain that matches our internal checkpoint list ;)?
482 2012-12-28 14:09:54 <sipa> why is internal better than built-in?
483 2012-12-28 14:10:13 <Diapolo> no no, that were just my words, I'll use your text :)
484 2012-12-28 14:10:25 <Diapolo> I just reflected what I gather from the description now
485 2012-12-28 14:10:31 <sipa> oh
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488 2012-12-28 14:13:24 <Diapolo> I changed it and before Gavin sneaks in and bashes me again for spending time on nonsense, we should stop further discussion :-P.
489 2012-12-28 14:14:25 <sipa> ok!
490 2012-12-28 14:15:24 <Diapolo> sipa: C question, I call a function from inside a function, which should make the initial function return on error but don
491 2012-12-28 14:15:39 <Diapolo> don't want to check a return value, can I just use inline here?
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493 2012-12-28 14:16:30 <sipa> inline doesn't affect semantics
494 2012-12-28 14:17:11 <Diapolo> is there an elegant way to do this, seems to be a common problem
495 2012-12-28 14:17:24 <Diapolo> perhaps that's even a stupid question ^^
496 2012-12-28 14:17:31 <sipa> exceptions :)
497 2012-12-28 14:18:47 <sipa> btw: do you feel like updating that windows prealloc commit?
498 2012-12-28 14:21:21 <Diapolo> you mean a minimal invasive version, which I could create with an #ifdef inside AllocateFileRange() ... I found Gavins comment a little rude, but I'll take another look yes
499 2012-12-28 14:23:22 <sipa> yeah, having a windows-specific allocatefilerange + (if necessary) larger chunk size on windows will accomplish the same without chaning any block logic
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535 2012-12-28 15:57:05 <aiziti> did i tell you what a motherfucking prick gmaxwell is, today?
536 2012-12-28 15:57:55 <aiziti> and he is still treated like human? this is unheard of
537 2012-12-28 15:58:06 <aiziti> i think he should be treated as non-human
538 2012-12-28 15:58:27 <aiziti> say, as some unwanted creature
539 2012-12-28 16:03:08 zooko has joined
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545 2012-12-28 16:13:32 MobGod has joined
546 2012-12-28 16:15:11 <D34TH> why do buttmad come to -dev, why not just #bitcoin
547 2012-12-28 16:16:07 <MobGod> what is buttmad?
548 2012-12-28 16:16:53 <D34TH> imagine a 12 year old playing call of duty
549 2012-12-28 16:17:09 <MobGod> lol
550 2012-12-28 16:17:14 <MobGod> gotcha
551 2012-12-28 16:17:50 <MobGod> i'm still going crazy right now anyone suggest for me what i can try to mine from a mac?
552 2012-12-28 16:18:23 <D34TH> cgminer for mac?
553 2012-12-28 16:18:30 <D34TH> ppc intel or amd
554 2012-12-28 16:18:33 <sipa> MobGod: first of all, why do you want to mine?
555 2012-12-28 16:19:06 <MobGod> sipa i really want to stare my own pool site "server"
556 2012-12-28 16:19:30 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
557 2012-12-28 16:19:31 <D34TH> MobGod, you would be better off running it in a vm or renting a server
558 2012-12-28 16:19:36 <sipa> ok, that's very different from mining itself
559 2012-12-28 16:19:39 <sipa> but why...?
560 2012-12-28 16:19:49 <MobGod> but i can mine for a start and of coarse for the coins that is why people mine correct
561 2012-12-28 16:20:00 <sipa> what hardware do you have?
562 2012-12-28 16:20:03 ovidiusoft has joined
563 2012-12-28 16:20:16 <MobGod> D34THwhy is that
564 2012-12-28 16:20:57 <MobGod> sipa i know i don't have good was not looking to get rich just to mine maybe make about .30 cents a day lol
565 2012-12-28 16:21:27 <sipa> 0.3 BTC, 0.3 USD, ... ?
566 2012-12-28 16:21:53 <MobGod> well BTC i hope
567 2012-12-28 16:22:41 <MobGod> sipa my ride is here let me grap my tablet so i can leave give me a few and i'll bee back ok
568 2012-12-28 16:22:53 <sipa> ;;calc 0.3 / 25 / 144 * 22000
569 2012-12-28 16:22:53 <gribble> 1.83333333333
570 2012-12-28 16:23:08 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 2
571 2012-12-28 16:23:08 <gribble> use the 'genrate' command instead
572 2012-12-28 16:23:16 <sipa> ;;genrate 1833
573 2012-12-28 16:23:16 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1833.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 2979636.61694, is 0.309380582037 BTC per day and 0.0128908575849 BTC per hour.
574 2012-12-28 16:23:37 <sipa> MobGod: you'd need around 2 GH/s for that, which means a few high-end graphics cards
575 2012-12-28 16:23:47 <sipa> or some FPGAs
576 2012-12-28 16:25:20 <D34TH> or an ASIC
577 2012-12-28 16:25:28 <D34TH> but that is a different story
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588 2012-12-28 16:36:47 <shamoon> if i start bitcoind with a datadir=/whatever, how can i use the API from another machine?
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592 2012-12-28 16:38:32 <shamoon> specifically, if i run: ./bitcoind -daemon -datadir=/mydir
593 2012-12-28 16:38:41 <shamoon> and then try to use the API, it says username / password not set
594 2012-12-28 16:38:48 <shamoon> becuase it's looking at ./bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
595 2012-12-28 16:38:52 <shamoon> as opposed to /mydir
596 2012-12-28 16:39:07 gavinandresen has joined
597 2012-12-28 16:39:51 <shamoon> ahh, gavinandresen, you may know
598 2012-12-28 16:39:57 <shamoon> specifically, if i run: ./bitcoind -daemon -datadir=/mydir
599 2012-12-28 16:40:00 <shamoon> and then try to use the API, it says username / password not set
600 2012-12-28 16:40:06 <shamoon> because it's looking at ./bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
601 2012-12-28 16:40:08 <D34TH> copy the conf to the data dir?
602 2012-12-28 16:40:27 <gavinandresen> shamoon: how are you trying to use the API?
603 2012-12-28 16:40:37 <shamoon> i'm using node.js and specifically the kapitalize library
604 2012-12-28 16:41:15 <gavinandresen> uhhh... how do you set the rpc username/password with the kapitalize library?
605 2012-12-28 16:41:33 <gavinandresen> (it sounds like it might be looking in .bitcoin for a bitcoin.conf file)
606 2012-12-28 16:41:46 <shamoon> it is looking in ./bitcoin
607 2012-12-28 16:41:51 <shamoon> not sure how to make it not look there
608 2012-12-28 16:42:01 <gavinandresen> me neither. I never heard of kapitalize before
609 2012-12-28 16:42:03 <shamoon> even from the CLI, if i type: ./bitcoind getinfo - it gives me the rpc error
610 2012-12-28 16:42:13 <shamoon> unless i specify datadir
611 2012-12-28 16:42:16 <gavinandresen> from the CLI, you need ./bitcoind -datadir=/foo getinfo
612 2012-12-28 16:42:27 <shamoon> kapitalize is just a wrapper over basic http request methods
613 2012-12-28 16:42:49 <gavinandresen> ok. You need to figure out how to pass an HTTP basic authentication username/password
614 2012-12-28 16:43:08 <shamoon> but it'll still look in ./bitcoin/bitcoin.conf, no?
615 2012-12-28 16:43:37 <gavinandresen> it might be as easy as using url http://username:password@localhost:8332 for the connection URL
616 2012-12-28 16:43:40 <sipa> shamoon: just use ./bitcoind -rpcusername=X -rpcpassword=Y <command> <option>
617 2012-12-28 16:43:56 <shamoon> that's if i'm running from CLI, but i'm using the api
618 2012-12-28 16:44:13 <sipa> what gavinandresen said
619 2012-12-28 16:44:30 <shamoon> so if i use the username:password from /mydif/bitcoin.conf, it should work then?
620 2012-12-28 16:44:37 <sipa> yes
621 2012-12-28 16:44:41 <gavinandresen> shamoon: yes
622 2012-12-28 16:44:41 <sipa> and the same IP and port
623 2012-12-28 16:45:03 <shamoon> interesting, awesome. thanks gavinandresen and sipa
624 2012-12-28 16:45:14 <shamoon> wait, hold on. that IS what we're doing
625 2012-12-28 16:45:20 <shamoon> we're using the rpc username and password
626 2012-12-28 16:45:36 <shamoon> the problem is it's looking in .bitcoin/bitcoin.conf - so if we put it in that file, it works fine
627 2012-12-28 16:45:43 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
628 2012-12-28 16:45:58 <sipa> are you talking about the server or the client?
629 2012-12-28 16:46:06 <shamoon> the server
630 2012-12-28 16:46:15 <gavinandresen> "it" being node.js ...
631 2012-12-28 16:46:26 <shamoon> correct gavinandresen
632 2012-12-28 16:46:27 <gavinandresen> .. or whatever wrapper library you're using?
633 2012-12-28 16:46:37 <sipa> if you pass -datadir=X to the server, it won't look in ~/.bitcoin
634 2012-12-28 16:46:48 <gavinandresen> ok. Then fix that code to take a -datadir or -rpcusername/-rpcpassword argument....
635 2012-12-28 16:46:48 <freewil> lets be clear bitcoind can act as a server and client depending on how you're using it
636 2012-12-28 16:47:40 <shamoon> https://github.com/Weltschmerz/Kapitalize/blob/master/lib/kapitalize.js
637 2012-12-28 16:47:46 <shamoon> that's how kapitalize connects
638 2012-12-28 16:48:10 <shamoon> so i guess i'll just add a datadir parameter there
639 2012-12-28 16:48:11 <freewil> shamoon, are you calling kapitalize.auth()
640 2012-12-28 16:48:21 <shamoon> yes
641 2012-12-28 16:48:21 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
642 2012-12-28 16:48:24 <shamoon> freewil
643 2012-12-28 16:49:13 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
644 2012-12-28 16:49:14 <freewil> it wouldnt make any sense to add a datadir parameter there when using kapitalize
645 2012-12-28 16:49:37 <freewil> thats a bitcoind cli argument
646 2012-12-28 16:49:55 <freewil> kapitalize communicates with bitcoind via json-rpc
647 2012-12-28 16:50:05 <shamoon> i think i can just set the option
648 2012-12-28 16:50:13 <shamoon> kapitalize.set("datadir", "/mydir");
649 2012-12-28 16:50:32 <freewil> no
650 2012-12-28 16:50:42 <freewil> im telling you that is not an option
651 2012-12-28 16:50:54 <shamoon> oh
652 2012-12-28 16:50:56 <sipa> kapitalize doesn't need to know where bitcoind is running
653 2012-12-28 16:51:05 <shamoon> no, it doesn't
654 2012-12-28 16:51:11 <sipa> and if it's on a different machine, it can't even access that directory
655 2012-12-28 16:51:11 <shamoon> so then how do i get the right datadir
656 2012-12-28 16:51:24 <sipa> "datadir" does not make any sense for a JSON library
657 2012-12-28 16:51:28 <sipa> it's a bitcoind option
658 2012-12-28 16:51:46 <sipa> all it needs to know is what IP/port to connect to, and with which username/password
659 2012-12-28 16:52:00 <shamoon> hmm
660 2012-12-28 16:52:07 <shamoon> so i shouldn't hav eto make any changes to the code then
661 2012-12-28 16:52:11 <freewil> no
662 2012-12-28 16:52:23 <shamoon> i'll give it a shot
663 2012-12-28 16:53:23 <freewil> normally how you use bitcoind is you first call it...
664 2012-12-28 16:53:25 <freewil> bitcoind -daemon
665 2012-12-28 16:53:39 <freewil> then you can do bitcoind getinfo
666 2012-12-28 16:53:58 <freewil> the first command starts it up as a daemon and will start up the built-in jsonrpc server
667 2012-12-28 16:54:18 <freewil> then the second command, it functions as a client connecting to the jsonrpc already started
668 2012-12-28 16:56:01 <freewil> it's somewhat confusing if you don't understand it will function as a jsonrpc client too depending on how you call it
669 2012-12-28 16:56:28 <freewil> so kapitalize is just another jsonrpc client
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678 2012-12-28 17:00:32 <shamoon> thanks freewil gavinandresen and sipa
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712 2012-12-28 18:31:19 <Skav> D34TH u there
713 2012-12-28 18:31:25 <D34TH> yep
714 2012-12-28 18:31:59 ovidiusoft has quit (Quit: leaving)
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716 2012-12-28 18:38:59 <Skav> sup
717 2012-12-28 18:40:00 ThomasV_ has quit (Quit: Quitte)
718 2012-12-28 18:40:09 <D34TH> chillin
719 2012-12-28 18:40:27 <Skav> where you from
720 2012-12-28 18:41:47 fpgaminer has joined
721 2012-12-28 18:42:28 <Skav> guess that is personal lol
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724 2012-12-28 19:01:19 <Skav> D34TH what happened to you
725 2012-12-28 19:01:27 <D34TH> oh
726 2012-12-28 19:01:30 <D34TH> playing civ v
727 2012-12-28 19:01:47 <Skav> civ?
728 2012-12-28 19:02:58 <Skav> what is that ?
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741 2012-12-28 19:26:45 <Skav> sipa u around
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756 2012-12-28 20:04:27 <Skav> D34TH ?
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803 2012-12-28 22:07:24 <rdymac> anyone is using Electrum on mac?
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835 2012-12-28 23:32:43 * Luke-Jr ponders if it's a bug to parse base58 ignoring the existence of leading 1s
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838 2012-12-28 23:33:53 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I think so.
839 2012-12-28 23:34:14 <Luke-Jr> :<
840 2012-12-28 23:34:52 <Luke-Jr> should number of '1's always be equal to number of '\0's in the output? or are there cases that might not be true?
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853 2012-12-28 23:48:40 <forrestv> Luke-Jr, the number of leading ones must equal the number of leading nul bytes...
854 2012-12-28 23:48:58 <forrestv> you can't relate inner 1's to inner \0's
855 2012-12-28 23:49:28 <Luke-Jr> forrestv: there's no way to craft an address such that there is an extra 1 or \0 at the front?
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858 2012-12-28 23:50:22 <forrestv> well, 1111111111111111111114oLvT2 is a valid address
859 2012-12-28 23:50:49 jaromil has joined
860 2012-12-28 23:51:11 <Luke-Jr> forrestv: that has 1s matching \0s
861 2012-12-28 23:51:46 <forrestv> there's a one-to-one map between base58 strings and binary strings
862 2012-12-28 23:52:17 <forrestv> so you can't make two addresses that refer to the same pubkey hash
863 2012-12-28 23:52:53 <forrestv> it would be the wrong size when unbase58packed
864 2012-12-28 23:52:57 <Luke-Jr> well, the problem is my base58 parser is currently accepting any number of leading 1s as equivalent
865 2012-12-28 23:52:58 <Joric> lol it's really address 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000
866 2012-12-28 23:53:14 <Luke-Jr> so I'm pondering whether I can just count the number of leading 1s and compare with leading \0s in output
867 2012-12-28 23:53:18 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: any number or just shorter?
868 2012-12-28 23:53:20 <Luke-Jr> or if I need something more complex
869 2012-12-28 23:53:24 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: any number, I'm pretty sure
870 2012-12-28 23:53:36 <gmaxwell> like 11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111114oLvT2 ?
871 2012-12-28 23:53:40 <Joric> if i only knew which ripemd160 gives 0
872 2012-12-28 23:53:43 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: right, they're just leading zeros ;P
873 2012-12-28 23:54:09 <gmaxwell> Joric: and which sha256 gives that value?
874 2012-12-28 23:54:19 <forrestv> Luke-Jr, what does your parser output for 'a'? '1a'?
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876 2012-12-28 23:56:48 <Joric> someone sent 2.92025012 to 1111111111111111111114oLvT2 what a sucker
877 2012-12-28 23:56:58 <Luke-Jr> forrestv: 0x21
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881 2012-12-28 23:57:34 <Joric> it doesn't even look that good 4oLvT2 meh
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883 2012-12-28 23:59:59 <Luke-Jr> forrestv: I also get 0x21 from Gavin's Python base58 code