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124 2012-12-30 05:17:52 <etotheipi_> wow, freakin' slow day on the bitcoin-dev channel today...
125 2012-12-30 05:19:44 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, sipa:  I'm becoming more and more swayed by thanke's concern about backing out m/i-privKey given m/i-chaincode and m/i/j-privKey
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128 2012-12-30 05:21:27 <etotheipi_> there's a certain inelegance to that "hole" that makes me think we should fix it if possible... but is it possible?
129 2012-12-30 05:22:27 <etotheipi_> I can't even think of any real use-cases where it would be an issue, but that doesn't mean there won't be
130 2012-12-30 05:25:09 <etotheipi_> coudn't it be solved by redefining the CKD_ver2() as CKD_ver1(CKD_ver1()) ?   i.e.  in version 2 m/i/j/k would be m/i/i/j/j/k/k as defined in the version 1 (as BIP 32 is written right now)
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132 2012-12-30 05:29:14 <etotheipi_> nevermind, that doesn't work
133 2012-12-30 05:37:13 <etotheipi_> actually, we only need to modify the CONOPs for the existing BIP 32 with the same idea -- the crypto doesn't change, but we only allow branching at even levels... and never give out observer or private branches at odd levels
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144 2012-12-30 06:42:17 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: not sure if this issue is still in question, but, that one miner who's address you asked about uses the blockchain.info wallet app
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222 2012-12-30 12:01:50 <stealth222> I opensourced my bitcoin protocol implementation: https://github.com/CodeShark/CoinClasses
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247 2012-12-30 13:45:44 <ssm2017> hello
248 2012-12-30 13:45:53 <stealth222> hi
249 2012-12-30 13:46:10 <ssm2017> using the json-rpc connection, is there a way to know the total count of "transactions" ?
250 2012-12-30 13:46:35 <stealth222> listtransactions
251 2012-12-30 13:46:38 <sipa> total count of transactions... ever? ... in your wallet? ... that aren't fully redeemed?
252 2012-12-30 13:47:28 <ssm2017> i have made a php script that is listing transactions but listtransactions is returning only the last 10 ones if i dont precise a quantity and a start point
253 2012-12-30 13:47:57 <ssm2017> i woulod like to be able to make a pager to get transactions one by one but at first i need to know the total amount of transactions
254 2012-12-30 13:48:43 <ssm2017> like transactions 0->10 / 2000; 11->20 /2000....
255 2012-12-30 13:49:12 <stealth222> for all accounts in a wallet? or just a single account?
256 2012-12-30 13:49:31 <ssm2017> both
257 2012-12-30 13:49:38 harkon has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
258 2012-12-30 13:49:41 <Scrat> is there a hash list for all the downloads on bitcoin.org?
259 2012-12-30 13:49:50 <ssm2017> or at first everything that is available :)
260 2012-12-30 13:50:07 <sipa> Scrat: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.7.2/
261 2012-12-30 13:50:46 <sipa> SHASUMS.asc is a GPG-signed list of checksums
262 2012-12-30 13:50:54 <stealth222> good morning, sipa :)
263 2012-12-30 13:50:58 <Scrat> sipa: ty
264 2012-12-30 13:51:07 <sipa> stealth222: eh, you too!
265 2012-12-30 13:51:24 <stealth222> ssm, unfortunately I don't think you can get the total number of transactions in a wallet with a single RPC call
266 2012-12-30 13:51:29 <stealth222> am I wrong, sipa?
267 2012-12-30 13:51:41 <stealth222> wouldn't you have to first query the account names, then call listtransactions for each one?
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269 2012-12-30 13:52:26 <ssm2017> this is what im actually doing
270 2012-12-30 13:52:29 <sipa> yeah, i think there's something fundamentally wrong with where listtransactions starts counting if you specify an offset
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272 2012-12-30 13:53:04 <stealth222> there's also something fundamentally wrong with getbalance taking the account as the first optional parameter while minconf is the second :)
273 2012-12-30 13:53:19 <ssm2017> to use the offset in listtransactions, i would need to know first the total amount
274 2012-12-30 13:53:24 <stealth222> there are so many times I've needed to query the total balance in a wallet with 0 confirmations regardless of account
275 2012-12-30 13:53:52 <stealth222> I can put in a pull request to expose these things in the RPC :)
276 2012-12-30 13:54:14 <sipa> ssm2017: ?
277 2012-12-30 13:54:27 <sipa> ssm2017: offset just means drop the first (or last, can't remember) N transactions
278 2012-12-30 13:56:13 <ssm2017> ah, ok... i thought that i could be able to ask 10 transactions begining at offset 100 for example
279 2012-12-30 13:56:14 <stealth222> listtransactions doesn't make sense :p
280 2012-12-30 13:56:46 <sipa> ssm2017: yes, you can
281 2012-12-30 13:56:54 <stealth222> listtransactions 10 0 gives me the empty array but listtransactions gives me a bunch
282 2012-12-30 13:56:57 <stealth222> how's that possible>?
283 2012-12-30 13:57:26 <sipa> stealth222: you need the account name in between
284 2012-12-30 13:57:34 <stealth222> oh, right - lol
285 2012-12-30 13:58:09 <ssm2017> i could not find a way to use count and offset for listtransactions without the account name too
286 2012-12-30 13:58:09 <stealth222> we should allow count=-1 mean all
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289 2012-12-30 13:58:20 <sipa> ssm2017: there isn't
290 2012-12-30 13:58:27 <sipa> but you can specify '*' to get all accounts
291 2012-12-30 13:58:33 <stealth222> oh, can you? lol
292 2012-12-30 13:58:36 <ssm2017> ah? wildcards ? good :)
293 2012-12-30 13:58:41 <sipa> not wildcards
294 2012-12-30 13:58:47 <sipa> just '*' means all
295 2012-12-30 13:58:52 <ssm2017> ok, noted
296 2012-12-30 13:59:34 <ssm2017> listrasactions * * 0
297 2012-12-30 13:59:36 <ssm2017> :)
298 2012-12-30 13:59:42 <ssm2017> to hang the server
299 2012-12-30 13:59:49 <stealth222> ok, I see the wildcard now
300 2012-12-30 14:00:08 <lianj> stealth222: paging > showing all
301 2012-12-30 14:00:37 <stealth222> depends on where you want to buffer it, lianj
302 2012-12-30 14:00:54 <ssm2017> there is a missing : gettransactionscount [accountname]
303 2012-12-30 14:01:21 <sipa> that wouldn't be faster than listtransactions
304 2012-12-30 14:01:32 <stealth222> it would require less I/O
305 2012-12-30 14:01:33 <sipa> but it would be convenient, i guess
306 2012-12-30 14:01:38 <sipa> yeah
307 2012-12-30 14:01:50 <ssm2017> if i have billions of transactions, there can be a problem to use listtransaction *
308 2012-12-30 14:02:21 <stealth222> if you only want to get the total count over a network, it would be far faster to perform the count serverside
309 2012-12-30 14:02:23 <stealth222> :)
310 2012-12-30 14:03:09 <sipa> sure
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312 2012-12-30 14:03:28 <sipa> but the largest problem is that listtransactions needs to iterate the entire wallet every time anyway
313 2012-12-30 14:04:01 <stealth222> the transaction count could be stored
314 2012-12-30 14:04:05 <stealth222> so that the query is fast
315 2012-12-30 14:04:27 <Scrat> so which operations are cached/indexed?
316 2012-12-30 14:05:09 <sipa> for the wallet? nothing
317 2012-12-30 14:05:40 <sipa> oh, total balances and balances per transaction are cached
318 2012-12-30 14:05:59 <sipa> but not per account
319 2012-12-30 14:06:00 <Scrat> how about balance per address or account
320 2012-12-30 14:06:01 <Scrat> oh
321 2012-12-30 14:06:42 <sipa> 'balance per address' is not needed ever for normal operation
322 2012-12-30 14:07:02 <Scrat> I really ment received per address :p
323 2012-12-30 14:07:29 <sipa> that too
324 2012-12-30 14:08:00 <Scrat> so wrapping every address into an account is the preferred usage
325 2012-12-30 14:08:11 <sipa> how so?
326 2012-12-30 14:08:40 <Scrat> this is not for personal use
327 2012-12-30 14:09:02 <sipa> associate addresses with an account if they're associated with an account
328 2012-12-30 14:09:06 <sipa> don't if they aren't
329 2012-12-30 14:09:25 <sipa> (and by account i mean "something you need to track the balance of")
330 2012-12-30 14:09:35 <sipa> but it's not cached either :(
331 2012-12-30 14:10:25 <Scrat> if it's only 1 disk seek per transaction that shouldn't be a problem unless you have thousands
332 2012-12-30 14:10:42 <sipa> wallets are always in memory, there are no disk seeks involved
333 2012-12-30 14:11:16 tonikt has joined
334 2012-12-30 14:11:16 <Scrat> even transactions going back to very old blocks?
335 2012-12-30 14:11:41 <sipa> wallet and blockchain systems are almost entirely separate
336 2012-12-30 14:11:50 <sipa> and the wallet is stored in memory, for now
337 2012-12-30 14:16:02 <Scrat> and another thing: is the change address guaranteed to be different than the original address?
338 2012-12-30 14:16:35 <sipa> yes
339 2012-12-30 14:16:42 <Scrat> or well not original address since it sends from many
340 2012-12-30 14:16:43 <sipa> it's always a fresh address
341 2012-12-30 14:16:46 <Scrat> good
342 2012-12-30 14:17:03 <sipa> except in case where you restore an old backup, perhaps
343 2012-12-30 14:18:33 <Joric> sipa i managed to get a fulltime job ) opensource cpp and a salary on a monthly basis how cool is that
344 2012-12-30 14:18:50 <Joric> guess bitcoin foundation still doesn't pay shit
345 2012-12-30 14:19:13 <stealth222> congrats, Joric :)
346 2012-12-30 14:19:37 jgarzik has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
347 2012-12-30 14:20:23 <sipa> Joric: nice!
348 2012-12-30 14:20:37 <sipa> what does bitcoin foundation have to do with that?
349 2012-12-30 14:21:22 <Joric> well shouldn't it pay atleast for the ultraprune implementation )
350 2012-12-30 14:21:43 <sipa> why?
351 2012-12-30 14:22:26 <Joric> this thing was hard to write wasn't it
352 2012-12-30 14:22:33 <sipa> it took a while :)
353 2012-12-30 14:22:43 <stealth222> difficulty isn't what determines how much it pays :)
354 2012-12-30 14:23:03 <stealth222> in fact, in my experience I've often found the two to be inversely correlated
355 2012-12-30 14:24:09 moop has joined
356 2012-12-30 14:24:33 <Joric> funny how jgarzik just skipped
357 2012-12-30 14:24:39 <Scrat> aren't most devs filthy rich just by being early adopters? 50k btc pizzas come to mind ;)
358 2012-12-30 14:25:04 <sipa> Scrat: i have maybe enough BTC to survive 2 months
359 2012-12-30 14:25:16 <Scrat> damn
360 2012-12-30 14:25:17 <Joric> Scrat, nope they arent )
361 2012-12-30 14:25:39 <sipa> and i wasn't really an early adoper (got my first coins in december 2010 iirc)
362 2012-12-30 14:26:13 <stealth222> the average salary for a software engineer is pretty decent - but that's largely because there's a handful of billionaires, a slightly larger number of millionaires, and then the rest most of which don't make that much :p
363 2012-12-30 14:27:02 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
364 2012-12-30 14:27:20 <Joric> on the other hand i won't get enough time for getting a PhD now thats for sure
365 2012-12-30 14:28:50 jgarzik has joined
366 2012-12-30 14:29:13 jgarzik is now known as Guest44927
367 2012-12-30 14:29:26 <Joric> jgarzik, was bitcoin foundation considering paying a salary to code devs
368 2012-12-30 14:31:06 <stealth222> code devs should probably be getting paid for giving talks, sitting on company boards, etc...and not for writing open source code :)
369 2012-12-30 14:31:33 Hashdog has joined
370 2012-12-30 14:31:37 <sipa> i suppose you mean core devs?
371 2012-12-30 14:31:41 <stealth222> yer
372 2012-12-30 14:32:20 <stealth222> writing open source code gives you the credentials to do the other things
373 2012-12-30 14:32:26 <stealth222> but it doesn't pay :)
374 2012-12-30 14:32:44 <stealth222> I mean, it doesn't pay directly
375 2012-12-30 14:33:59 Hashdog has left ()
376 2012-12-30 14:34:15 <stealth222> how does Linus Torvalds make a living?
377 2012-12-30 14:35:15 <sipa> linux foundation pays him
378 2012-12-30 14:35:21 <roconnor_> what is the median software developer salary?
379 2012-12-30 14:35:48 <Joric> zynga developers get $14k a month for php )
380 2012-12-30 14:36:29 <stealth222> that's sick
381 2012-12-30 14:36:44 <stealth222> are you sure about that?
382 2012-12-30 14:36:50 <Scrat> stealth222: he was given tons of Red Hat shares and options
383 2012-12-30 14:36:58 <Joric> pretty much my friend is there
384 2012-12-30 14:37:07 <Joric> i didn't manage to skip to zynga yet
385 2012-12-30 14:37:54 MC-Eeepc has quit (Quit: Leaving)
386 2012-12-30 14:37:56 <Joric> its only $150k a year not that much for a grown man
387 2012-12-30 14:37:57 <Scrat> Joric: what is your friend saying about the management?
388 2012-12-30 14:38:11 <Scrat> I heard they're dicks
389 2012-12-30 14:38:14 <stealth222> the median salary for a senior software engineer at the top companies is about $120k
390 2012-12-30 14:38:21 MC1984 has joined
391 2012-12-30 14:38:27 <Scrat> which is fitting since zynga is one of the most hated companies :p
392 2012-12-30 14:38:37 <roconnor_> stealth222: thanks
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401 2012-12-30 15:01:54 <zapsoda> Is there a way to make somthing happen (in PHP) when a address gets BTC without having a script constently running? (I asked this is all the channels so im not ignoreing your answear)
402 2012-12-30 15:02:31 <Joric> zapsoda, no theres no callbacks if you don't use 3rd party services
403 2012-12-30 15:02:47 <zapsoda> :/
404 2012-12-30 15:03:26 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
405 2012-12-30 15:04:08 <Joric> theoretically it's possble to run bitcoind -printtoconsole + listen for events there just a guess
406 2012-12-30 15:05:08 <Joric> amirite? no callbacks either logs or cron
407 2012-12-30 15:05:25 <zapsoda> As far as i can tell you are
408 2012-12-30 15:05:31 <zapsoda> Ill probably go with cron
409 2012-12-30 15:06:04 <Scrat> can only run cron every 1 minute, correct?
410 2012-12-30 15:06:25 <zapsoda> So like how does this work? http://royalbitcoin.com/  cron job?  It detects when you send BTC and sends back
411 2012-12-30 15:07:01 <Scrat> 1) they might be using a 3rd party api like blockchain.info
412 2012-12-30 15:07:14 <Scrat> 2) listsinceblock maybe
413 2012-12-30 15:09:14 <Scrat> oh its a dice website
414 2012-12-30 15:09:33 <Scrat> probably uses bitcoinj (java client) which also allows it to send with 0 confirmations
415 2012-12-30 15:11:10 <Joric> it's not that hard to modify bitcoind matter of minutes
416 2012-12-30 15:11:14 <Scrat> not sure about listsinceblock, what happens after a reorg? devs?
417 2012-12-30 15:13:12 <Scrat> I can think of a rare case where you miss a transaction
418 2012-12-30 15:17:30 <zapsoda> The other option would to be to use this i guess?
419 2012-12-30 15:17:31 <zapsoda> http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/wiki/GettingStarted#Receiving_coins_and_handling_units
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429 2012-12-30 15:53:33 <stealth222> heh, zapsoda - that's one of my favorite issues
430 2012-12-30 15:53:53 <stealth222> I've solved it in several ways...unfortunately none of them are the official satoshi client yet
431 2012-12-30 15:54:05 paraipan has joined
432 2012-12-30 15:54:22 <zapsoda> So you use a diffrent client? Like Bitcoinj?
433 2012-12-30 15:54:23 <stealth222> I've got two pull requests in with the original motivation to be able to get these alerts - and I also wrote my own bitcoin implementation
434 2012-12-30 15:54:32 <stealth222> in order to get these alerts
435 2012-12-30 15:55:04 TD has joined
436 2012-12-30 15:55:24 <stealth222> I just opensourced my bitcoin implementation if you're a C++ programmer and want to use it. You can build a custom filter atop the onTx handler and then use curl to post to a PHP page
437 2012-12-30 15:55:41 <stealth222> that's how I've been doing it
438 2012-12-30 15:55:50 <zapsoda> Sounds to hard for me, Ill stick with the https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BitcoinNotify
439 2012-12-30 15:55:54 <zapsoda> I think
440 2012-12-30 15:56:00 <zapsoda> I might do somthing diffrent
441 2012-12-30 15:56:02 <Scrat> stealth222: link plx
442 2012-12-30 15:56:16 <sipa> Note that bitcoinnotify is not in business anymore since it has been sold in December 2011. But there are some good alternatives available which offer similar services:
443 2012-12-30 15:56:31 <stealth222> Scrat: https://github.com/CodeShark/CoinClasses/
444 2012-12-30 15:56:33 <zapsoda> Sorry
445 2012-12-30 15:56:36 <zapsoda> I meeant http://www.bitcoinmonitor.net/
446 2012-12-30 15:56:36 <stealth222> look at the listener example
447 2012-12-30 15:57:09 <sipa> being able to get callbacks when a transaction reaches a preset number of confirmations would be nice, i guess
448 2012-12-30 15:57:23 <stealth222> for that I had to build a database, sipa
449 2012-12-30 15:57:25 <stealth222> lol
450 2012-12-30 15:58:01 <stealth222> although now the satoshi client supports querying confirmation count via RPC
451 2012-12-30 15:58:01 <gmaxwell> stealth222: I don't follow how a notification patch saves zapsoda from having something 'constently running'
452 2012-12-30 15:58:17 <stealth222> you have to have something running
453 2012-12-30 15:58:23 <stealth222> this listener runs as a daemon
454 2012-12-30 15:58:31 <stealth222> but it sleeps most of the time :)
455 2012-12-30 15:58:46 <Scrat> because callbacks > polling
456 2012-12-30 15:58:51 Joric has quit ()
457 2012-12-30 15:59:52 <ne0futur> (16:35) <   zapsoda> Is there a way to make somthing happen (in PHP) when a address gets BTC without having a
458 2012-12-30 16:00:22 <ne0futur> I d use bitping
459 2012-12-30 16:00:42 <ne0futur> https://github.com/neofutur/BitPing.Net
460 2012-12-30 16:00:57 <stealth222> when I first implemented the listener the reference client still didn't have getrawtransaction
461 2012-12-30 16:01:15 <stealth222> but now with getrawtransaction it's possible to check confirmation counts each time a block is received
462 2012-12-30 16:01:24 <stealth222> without having to store the block chain separately
463 2012-12-30 16:02:20 <zapsoda> Thanks guys
464 2012-12-30 16:04:00 <stealth222> I've used bitcoin abe before, ne0futur. I ended up creating a similar schema for my db
465 2012-12-30 16:04:17 <stealth222> optimized for quick searches, not for size
466 2012-12-30 16:04:34 <stealth222> nor for insert speed
467 2012-12-30 16:05:09 <stealth222> but now with getrawtransaction, it's unnecessary to keep a separate block chain database to get confirmation alerts
468 2012-12-30 16:05:44 <sipa> except that git head doesn't support getrawtransaction for arbitrary transactions anymore
469 2012-12-30 16:06:00 <stealth222> are you f#@$ing serious?!??!!
470 2012-12-30 16:06:04 <stealth222> no way...
471 2012-12-30 16:06:11 <stealth222> that was one of the coolest features :)
472 2012-12-30 16:06:13 <sipa> (and with an extra database, it can, but watch-only wallets + notifications is a much nicer solution)
473 2012-12-30 16:06:34 <sipa> well it's fundamentally incompatible with pruning
474 2012-12-30 16:06:48 <sipa> and just to maintain a wallet, you shouldn't need to full block chain
475 2012-12-30 16:06:54 <sipa> *the
476 2012-12-30 16:07:23 <stealth222> yes, true. detecting the status of an unconfirmed transaction is still a problem, though
477 2012-12-30 16:07:32 <stealth222> is it orphaned? double-spent? etc...
478 2012-12-30 16:07:44 <sipa> wallets should track that
479 2012-12-30 16:08:05 <sipa> imho, a wallet should run perfectly on an SPV-style chain database
480 2012-12-30 16:08:06 <stealth222> gmaxwell and I had a discussion the other day about this and concluded that the wallet would have to maintain its own mempool
481 2012-12-30 16:08:35 <sipa> hmm, why?
482 2012-12-30 16:08:54 sh4kad4rk has joined
483 2012-12-30 16:09:13 <stealth222> the wallet only receives transactions that belong to it - meaning it participates in either the inputs or outputs. however, it does not track dependencies
484 2012-12-30 16:09:22 <sipa> sure it does
485 2012-12-30 16:09:27 <stealth222> say A -> B -> C, only C belongs to the wallet
486 2012-12-30 16:09:35 <stealth222> B is double-spent
487 2012-12-30 16:09:40 <sipa> the wallet contains unconfirmed dependencies
488 2012-12-30 16:10:09 <stealth222> hmm...I guess it would need them to make the merkle tree
489 2012-12-30 16:10:26 <gmaxwell> stealth222: no, it doesn't.
490 2012-12-30 16:11:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: which doesn't help you when a height 1 confirmed dependency get reorged out and replaced with a conflict.  (certantly you can monitor all transactions, but that makes all the bloom filtering stuff kinda moot except for ibd)
491 2012-12-30 16:11:24 <gmaxwell> (thats what stealth222 meant about maitain its own mempool)
492 2012-12-30 16:11:36 maaku has joined
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494 2012-12-30 16:12:45 <stealth222> right, for the merkle tree it is sufficient that you know in which blocks your transactions reside
495 2012-12-30 16:13:00 <sipa> gmaxwell: you can still detect that the transaction you thought was confirmed, isn't anymore
496 2012-12-30 16:13:02 <stealth222> and you trust the network to verify that the inputs connect
497 2012-12-30 16:13:03 <sipa> but indeed
498 2012-12-30 16:13:33 <gmaxwell> sipa: right, it's just an issue for unconfirmed txn and knowing that they've changed between varrious unconfirmed states.
499 2012-12-30 16:15:59 <gmaxwell> sipa: the prior discussion stealth222 and I had where I'd made an aside comment 'while you're working on that, why not have the wallet show negative confirmation counts for conflicted transactions (e.g. -distanct to first conflict)' but it turns out that this is not easy to do from a chainless / indexless wallet.
500 2012-12-30 16:16:39 <sipa> right
501 2012-12-30 16:19:39 <stealth222> you can always run your own block chain database server and query by outpoints :)
502 2012-12-30 16:20:03 <stealth222> that, unfortunately, is the only reliable solution I've so far found
503 2012-12-30 16:22:22 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
504 2012-12-30 16:25:12 <stealth222> is there any way the protocol could maintain double-spent states without opening itself up to DoS?
505 2012-12-30 16:26:15 <stealth222> i.e. also record at least one conflicting transaction when it occurs but marking it as void
506 2012-12-30 16:26:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: i think the block undo data should have checksums
507 2012-12-30 16:27:33 <sipa> i've implemented a "tolerant" DisconnectBlock that supports rolling back transactions on an inconsistent state
508 2012-12-30 16:27:42 <sipa> but it has to assume the undo data is perfect
509 2012-12-30 16:28:18 <gmaxwell> I think I'd commented before that if we had hashes we could save them when pruning undo data... and then if we added a way to fetch undo data then reorgs below a prunepoint could still be handled.
510 2012-12-30 16:28:34 <gmaxwell> So it would be useful for that too.
511 2012-12-30 16:28:55 <stealth222> so the only serious hurdle is reorgs?
512 2012-12-30 16:29:25 <sipa> afk
513 2012-12-30 16:30:21 <gmaxwell> You still have to have the 'recieve C now go back and get B then A' which gets kinda ugly if someone sends you a really long unconfirmed chain.. but thats just ugly not a barrier.
514 2012-12-30 16:33:26 <stealth222> still going through main.cpp to make sure I fully get how all this works
515 2012-12-30 16:34:41 <stealth222> so when a tx message is received, it attempts to connect inputs and if it succeeds (as well as passing all the other tests) it gets accepted in the mempool. Wallets are only alerted of the transaction when it gets accepted into the mempool, correct?
516 2012-12-30 16:35:10 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
517 2012-12-30 16:36:15 <stealth222> but the wallet isn't given the entire chain of transactions from the mempool - so what you're saying is that the wallet would have to go back out to the mempool and fetch the chain?
518 2012-12-30 16:36:29 rdymac has joined
519 2012-12-30 16:37:45 <stealth222> or are you saying that the mempool feeds it not only the transaction that belongs to it but all dependencies, too?
520 2012-12-30 16:38:25 freakazoid has joined
521 2012-12-30 16:39:28 <stealth222> AddToWalletIfInvolvingMe would then have to pass an entire graph structure to the wallet rather than just a single transaction
522 2012-12-30 16:40:50 <stealth222> or am I totally missing something?
523 2012-12-30 16:43:34 <stealth222> actually, it would be sufficient that the wallet keep track of all dependent outpoints
524 2012-12-30 16:43:43 <stealth222> and tx hashes of the txs that claim them
525 2012-12-30 16:44:20 <stealth222> doesn't even really care about the order
526 2012-12-30 16:45:44 <stealth222> the mempool class could handle calculating dependent outpoints
527 2012-12-30 16:46:10 Joric has joined
528 2012-12-30 16:56:40 <stealth222> sorry, gmaxwell, I know you've probably been through all these issues a million times already - I'm relatively new to the details of main.cpp.
529 2012-12-30 16:56:49 <stealth222> so I'll study it more and then comment :)
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535 2012-12-30 17:04:05 <etotheipi_> sipa: did you have any concerns about thanke's one-level-reversal of private keys?
536 2012-12-30 17:04:21 <etotheipi_> is there a way around it?
537 2012-12-30 17:04:59 da2ce7_d has joined
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540 2012-12-30 17:06:00 <stealth222> etotheipi_: where can I read more about that?
541 2012-12-30 17:06:37 <etotheipi_> stealth222: it's not thoroughly described anywhere.. but you can read it on the second-to-last page of the "Deterministic Wallets" thread on the forums
542 2012-12-30 17:07:13 <etotheipi_> thanke points out that while we rely on  c*PublicKey being non-invertible, c*PrivateKey *is* invertible
543 2012-12-30 17:07:32 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
544 2012-12-30 17:07:57 <etotheipi_> (actually, c*PrivKey mod N)
545 2012-12-30 17:08:58 <etotheipi_> sipa: is there an operation that requires solving the discrete log problem for both the public and private operations?
546 2012-12-30 17:09:22 <stealth222> etotheipi_: ok, thanks
547 2012-12-30 17:12:19 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: comments?
548 2012-12-30 17:12:31 Joric has quit ()
549 2012-12-30 17:14:22 <gmaxwell> ::meh:: its not harmful for the proposed uses. I agree it's somewhat surprising and would be good to fix if I saw a way to do so.
550 2012-12-30 17:15:25 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: that's how I feel, too
551 2012-12-30 17:15:49 <etotheipi_> I think it *should* be fixed, but I'm not sure it's really possible
552 2012-12-30 17:16:40 <etotheipi_> (at least not without breaking type2)
553 2012-12-30 17:22:00 <etotheipi_> is there a way to get RSA-style discrete-log protection on the private key operations?
554 2012-12-30 17:22:22 <etotheipi_> I guess it doesn't work if everyone knows the modulus, N
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556 2012-12-30 17:35:04 <stealth222> The private key is a number while the public key is a point. so you're just basically saying that while point multiplication on elliptic curves is not invertible, finding multiplicative inverses mod p is polynomial-time? is that all you're saying? or is there something more?
557 2012-12-30 17:35:23 <etotheipi_> stealth222: that's essentially it
558 2012-12-30 17:36:07 <etotheipi_> and it only applies to a case for which we don't really have any use cases, right now
559 2012-12-30 17:36:35 <etotheipi_> which is that the party must have private chain at one level, and the public chain of the parent
560 2012-12-30 17:38:10 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
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562 2012-12-30 17:49:20 <MC1984> wow after hitting up some android related rooms
563 2012-12-30 17:49:34 <MC1984> i have a new appreciation for the people who are into bitcoin on irc
564 2012-12-30 17:49:47 <MC1984> helpfulness i mean
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569 2012-12-30 18:13:36 <stealth222> etotheipi_: your diagrams were invaluable to my understanding of OP_CHECKSIG - thanks so much for publishing them :)
570 2012-12-30 18:13:50 <sipa> etotheipi_: i've memtioned it under thesecurity section of bip32, but i see no way to avoid it
571 2012-12-30 18:13:58 <stealth222> without your help, it would have probably taken me a lot longer to implement a transaction signer
572 2012-12-30 18:15:27 <etotheipi_> stealth222: fantastic!  I knew other people would find it useful
573 2012-12-30 18:15:59 <etotheipi_> it was the result of countless hours of bashing my head over it (mostly the endianness, though, but you never know what the problem is until it's right)
574 2012-12-30 18:16:50 <stealth222> yeah, lol
575 2012-12-30 18:17:12 <stealth222> I had to stick in tracers in bitcoind to get detailed feedback as to why my transactions were rejected
576 2012-12-30 18:17:17 <etotheipi_> sipa: okay, I just wanted to catch up any discussions you may have had about it already
577 2012-12-30 18:17:26 <etotheipi_> apparently you have conceded to it, much like I am about to....
578 2012-12-30 18:18:09 <stealth222> as long as the operation for generating the chain is based on scalar multiplication, the issue seems unavoidable
579 2012-12-30 18:18:22 <etotheipi_> stealth222: eww.. .I didn't have to go that far...
580 2012-12-30 18:18:33 <etotheipi_> but it doesn't surprise me
581 2012-12-30 18:20:38 harkon has joined
582 2012-12-30 18:22:53 <etotheipi_> re scalar multiplication:  I guess it will just be an eternal caveat of type2 wallets
583 2012-12-30 18:23:30 <stealth222> unless we move to something other than ECDSA
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585 2012-12-30 18:24:10 <etotheipi_> actually, I just realized somethign -- if we move to something else (eventually), there's no guarantee it will have the Type2 property
586 2012-12-30 18:27:38 <stealth222> have you read this paper before? http://middleware.internet2.edu/idtrust/2009/papers/07-perlner-quantum.pdf
587 2012-12-30 18:28:01 <etotheipi_> stealth222: I've seen it before, but never read through it
588 2012-12-30 18:29:34 <stealth222> I wonder whether NTRU might be possible to make type2
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591 2012-12-30 18:30:38 <etotheipi_> stealth222: I think even deterministic wallets will be more complicated -- I'm sure it can be done but something like RSA doesn't work with just arbitrary strings as your private key
592 2012-12-30 18:30:59 harkon has joined
593 2012-12-30 18:31:20 <etotheipi_> I suppose you could use a deterministic PRNG and use the 32-byte string as the seed for it, but it would be slow
594 2012-12-30 18:31:30 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: thus— don't use crap mechenisms. :P
595 2012-12-30 18:31:48 <gmaxwell> (and besides, lamport is fine with $whatever as the private key)
596 2012-12-30 18:32:23 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: is RSA crap?
597 2012-12-30 18:33:11 <stealth222> other than that it requires much larger keys than ECDSA?
598 2012-12-30 18:33:18 <stealth222> or ECC
599 2012-12-30 18:33:19 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: the only argument I'm aware of for using it over ECC methods is that it has a wide existing deployment.
600 2012-12-30 18:33:21 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
601 2012-12-30 18:34:19 <stealth222> perhaps one could also argue that factorization has been more studied than the discrete log problems in ECC...but I'm not sure that's really relevant
602 2012-12-30 18:34:27 <Scrat> isnt key generation on rsa really slow?
603 2012-12-30 18:34:38 <stealth222> RSA requires two large primes and a large random number
604 2012-12-30 18:34:54 <stealth222> and not all pairs of primes are as good
605 2012-12-30 18:35:00 <Scrat> plus multiplying these primes
606 2012-12-30 18:35:39 <stealth222> RSA key generation involves randomly picking large numbers until a set is found that passes the test
607 2012-12-30 18:36:42 <Scrat> is the primality test on the big primes probabilistic?
608 2012-12-30 18:36:52 <stealth222> there's a deterministic test but it's not as fast
609 2012-12-30 18:37:10 <Scrat> yeah you have to test factors up to sqr(num)
610 2012-12-30 18:37:26 <stealth222> no, there's a polynomial time deterministic algorithm
611 2012-12-30 18:37:40 JZavala has joined
612 2012-12-30 18:37:59 <stealth222> http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/manindra/algebra/primality_v6.pdf
613 2012-12-30 18:38:40 <stealth222> Miller-Rabin is only probabilistic - but in practice it gives good results quickly
614 2012-12-30 18:39:39 <stealth222> AKS is O((log n)^7.5) or thereabouts
615 2012-12-30 18:40:27 <stealth222> Miller-Rabin is about O(k (log n)^2)
616 2012-12-30 18:42:27 <Scrat> stealth222: got it
617 2012-12-30 18:44:24 <Scrat> looks like openssl first does a few division with small numbers and if it passes runs a Miller-Rabin
618 2012-12-30 18:54:03 Joric has joined
619 2012-12-30 18:54:26 <Joric> did you see this? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/15oakd/the_bitcoin_problem/ the hell was that??
620 2012-12-30 18:55:25 tonikt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
621 2012-12-30 18:55:36 <MC1984> the bitcoin wallet app on the anroid store has nothing to do with you guys right?
622 2012-12-30 18:55:38 <stealth222> looks like nonsense to me, Joric
623 2012-12-30 18:55:40 <Scrat> trolls trolling trolls
624 2012-12-30 18:55:57 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
625 2012-12-30 18:56:15 <Scrat> buildbox  2593 55.4 20.6 269284 176904 ?       SLsl 18:18  77:29 ./bitcoind -daemon
626 2012-12-30 18:56:21 <Scrat> killing my laptop
627 2012-12-30 18:56:29 <Scrat> and I'm running an ssd, lol
628 2012-12-30 18:57:24 <Joric> TD's diffuculties? Mike Hearn? bitcoinj?
629 2012-12-30 18:57:39 <wereHamster> Scrat: yes, it's very demanding on the disk
630 2012-12-30 18:58:35 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
631 2012-12-30 18:58:55 pooler has joined
632 2012-12-30 18:59:14 <Scrat> satoshidice tx's eating my laptop alive
633 2012-12-30 19:03:59 <Skav> Scrat why you running from your laptop ?
634 2012-12-30 19:04:16 <Scrat> I like coding in bed sometimes
635 2012-12-30 19:04:30 <Skav> oh
636 2012-12-30 19:04:42 <Scrat> and I'm too lazy to setup a LAN RPC thingy
637 2012-12-30 19:04:51 <Scrat> what quality is the 0.8.x branch right now?
638 2012-12-30 19:09:20 ThomasV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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655 2012-12-30 20:25:51 <etotheipi_> question about Satoshi client behavior:  node is at block X and receives X+1, add it to the pool, then later receive (X+1)' with the same difficulty
656 2012-12-30 20:25:57 <etotheipi_> it doesn't switch to that block
657 2012-12-30 20:26:12 <etotheipi_> but then let's say it receives (X+2)' and switches to it because now that's the longest chian
658 2012-12-30 20:26:34 <etotheipi_> how does X+1 and X+2 propagate through that node?
659 2012-12-30 20:26:41 <etotheipi_> err (X+1)' and (X+2)'
660 2012-12-30 20:27:03 <etotheipi_> does it forward (X+1)' even though it doesn't treat it as preferred chain?
661 2012-12-30 20:27:27 <etotheipi_> after (X+2)' comes in and it switches, does it broadcast inv messages for both (X+1)' and (X+2)'?
662 2012-12-30 20:32:23 tonikt has joined
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666 2012-12-30 20:36:22 davout has joined
667 2012-12-30 20:36:35 Guest12689 has joined
668 2012-12-30 20:37:18 <etotheipi_> okay, more specifically, let's say I'm only listening to the broadcasts of a node, and there is a two-block reorg:  X-->Y-->Z now becomes X-->Y'-->Z'-->A'  ... will my listening node ever see Y' or Z'?  or will it only see A' and have no idea what it is?
669 2012-12-30 20:39:03 MC-Eeepc has joined
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680 2012-12-30 20:50:01 <anonibit> reddit is sucking today
681 2012-12-30 20:52:15 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
682 2012-12-30 20:54:18 galambo has left ("Leaving")
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686 2012-12-30 21:01:18 rdymac has joined
687 2012-12-30 21:02:01 <anonibit> WTF is this? http://pastebin.com/aDn7FY4Z
688 2012-12-30 21:03:05 <D34TH> your attempt at drama?
689 2012-12-30 21:05:39 one_zero has joined
690 2012-12-30 21:06:10 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: it'll request Z' Y' after getting A'
691 2012-12-30 21:11:33 anonibit has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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694 2012-12-30 21:15:33 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
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699 2012-12-30 21:29:20 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: who'll request it?  is the bitcoind instance going to broadcast knowledge of Y' and Z'?  How does my node know that A' is the longest chain if it's only seen Y and Z?
700 2012-12-30 21:30:44 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: because it will get A' and not be able to connect it, so then it requests its parents (using prev). Consider: the same question comes up when a node has had connections problems and missed some blocks.
701 2012-12-30 21:35:52 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: how does it know it's not just getting spammed?  couldn't I create a list of 10,000,000 invalid headers, but it wouldn't know they are invalid until it's retrieved all 10mil of them
702 2012-12-30 21:40:20 Skav has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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706 2012-12-30 21:59:46 <stealth222> I wish blocks stored height in the header
707 2012-12-30 22:00:13 <stealth222> minimal expense in extra data - greatly simplifies many operations
708 2012-12-30 22:01:54 <ThomasV_> stealth222: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0034
709 2012-12-30 22:02:09 <stealth222> yeah, I've seen that before
710 2012-12-30 22:05:10 <stealth222> would have been way cleaner to just store that in the block header itself rather than the first transaction
711 2012-12-30 22:07:50 <ThomasV_> but that's a hard fork
712 2012-12-30 22:08:01 <stealth222> yes, I know
713 2012-12-30 22:08:08 <stealth222> hence the "I wish"
714 2012-12-30 22:09:02 <etotheipi_>  if we accept that we'll have to do a hard fork some day, then we should definitely add that to the list
715 2012-12-30 22:09:09 <etotheipi_> (I'm sure it's already on the hard-fork wishlist, though)
716 2012-12-30 22:09:29 <etotheipi_> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist
717 2012-12-30 22:10:17 <ThomasV_> I didn't know there was such a wishlist
718 2012-12-30 22:10:24 <ThomasV_> I want a pony!
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721 2012-12-30 22:13:37 <etotheipi_> it's gotta happen sometime...
722 2012-12-30 22:14:29 <etotheipi_> a lot of these would be great, though, of course, new clients still have to hardcode the old rules up to block X (whenever the switch is made)
723 2012-12-30 22:19:18 <stealth222> would it be possible to write into the protocol a mechanism for changing the message structures?
724 2012-12-30 22:19:40 <etotheipi_> probably not without huge security holes
725 2012-12-30 22:19:42 <etotheipi_> :)
726 2012-12-30 22:22:24 <stealth222> well, for instance, a block could contain a "proposal" field - where it can propose to, say, add another 8 bytes at the end of the block header structure. and if 999 out of the last 1000 blocks all agree to do this, then the 1001st block must have a header 8 bytes longer :)
727 2012-12-30 22:23:16 <stealth222> not quite sure how to negotiate what that data means and how to apply rules to it
728 2012-12-30 22:23:31 <stealth222> I suppose the rule modification could also be encoded
729 2012-12-30 22:24:03 <stealth222> it would have to require a very large consensus
730 2012-12-30 22:29:11 <gmaxwell> stealth222: uh. no thats bad. As it would break all the existing users, and mining is not a gauge of user consensus, it's a gauge of mining consensus. (which is the applicable consensus for soft forks but not hard ones).
731 2012-12-30 22:29:51 <gmaxwell> stealth222: I wouldn't want the height in the header, it would needlessly make the headers larger... and the headers ought to be as small as possible.
732 2012-12-30 22:30:45 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: your first barrier is that your headers need to meet the required minimum difficulty.
733 2012-12-30 22:31:00 <stealth222> gmaxwell: it would only add a few bytes to the header - practically negligible
734 2012-12-30 22:31:18 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: which is "diffculty=1", right?
735 2012-12-30 22:31:22 <gmaxwell> Right.
736 2012-12-30 22:31:44 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: a sufficiently smart client would always fetch headers and only bother pulling content for something that is potentially the longest chain POW wise.
737 2012-12-30 22:32:24 <stealth222> this is only a major issue for orphaned blocks
738 2012-12-30 22:32:25 <Guest12689> is mining consensus the only one that's possible to measure
739 2012-12-30 22:32:34 <gmaxwell> (though the reference isn't that kind of sufficiently smart yet— instead we have checkpoints and a permitted difficulty change window that inhibits flooding.
740 2012-12-30 22:32:34 <stealth222> side chains tend not to be very long
741 2012-12-30 22:32:46 AtashiCon has joined
742 2012-12-30 22:32:47 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: you've already answered my question ... I'm just trying to make the simplest listening node possible, but want to make sure it doesn't miss things, either (such as, in the case of a reorg)
743 2012-12-30 22:32:56 Guest12689 is now known as amiller
744 2012-12-30 22:32:59 <gmaxwell> stealth222: ... I like you, you're obviously a nice guy that doesn't think about malicious acts... :P
745 2012-12-30 22:33:25 <gmaxwell> Guest54088: using the blockchain, sure.
746 2012-12-30 22:34:43 rdymac has joined
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749 2012-12-30 22:36:55 <sipa> gmaxwell: for choosing a checksum for undo data, i'd like to add some identifying information about the block it's about, to make sure no moved data can be accepted as valid with valid checksum, but be for another block
750 2012-12-30 22:38:14 <sipa> but if you want to use it at some point in an authenticated way, you may want to store (via a merkle tree?) in the coinbase of the block itself
751 2012-12-30 22:38:42 <sipa> probably nothing to worry about now
752 2012-12-30 22:40:07 <gmaxwell> yea, the right thing to do is connect it via the coinbase, since that can accommodate what you want as well as being able to SPVly obtain undo data from peers.
753 2012-12-30 22:41:01 <sipa> right
754 2012-12-30 22:41:26 <sipa> but that makes adding the block hash to the undo-data-checksum-calculation impossible
755 2012-12-30 22:41:41 <sipa> you could use the prevblock hash
756 2012-12-30 22:41:48 <sipa> but that's not perfect
757 2012-12-30 22:43:31 <etotheipi_> sipa: is this for undoing pruned-tree ops during a reorg?
758 2012-12-30 22:43:59 <sipa> well, right now it's just about adding a checksum to the undo data
759 2012-12-30 22:44:22 <sipa> and i want to add the block hash of the block it's about to the calculation, so there can be no mistake
760 2012-12-30 22:44:58 <sipa> but that is incompatible with the idea of one day adding the checksum of the undo data to the coinbase (even indirectly)
761 2012-12-30 22:45:06 Skav has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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763 2012-12-30 22:49:56 <etotheipi_> what is the undo data?  is this a BST?
764 2012-12-30 22:50:19 <etotheipi_> or is it agnostic?  (just txouts added and removed?)
765 2012-12-30 22:50:34 <sipa> for every txin, it lists the txout being spent
766 2012-12-30 22:50:43 <sipa> concatenated
767 2012-12-30 22:51:18 <sipa> (and if it's the last txout of a tx being spent, also the tx version, height, and whether it was a coinbase)
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776 2012-12-30 23:02:37 <stealth222> who is adding undo data? to undo what?
777 2012-12-30 23:03:50 Lexa has joined
778 2012-12-30 23:04:24 <stealth222> you mean you want the block to also have to store information on how to undo it if it gets disconnected?
779 2012-12-30 23:04:34 <sipa> no
780 2012-12-30 23:04:40 <sipa> but the client does need to store that data
781 2012-12-30 23:05:19 <stealth222> so you're looking for a way of storing that information short of having to store all the transactions?
782 2012-12-30 23:05:35 <sipa> no, that's already been solved
783 2012-12-30 23:05:46 <sipa> git head works that way
784 2012-12-30 23:05:59 <stealth222> so then what's the issue?
785 2012-12-30 23:06:03 <sipa> i want it to have checksums
786 2012-12-30 23:07:34 <stealth222> I'm still not following - what are the checksums for?
787 2012-12-30 23:07:46 <gmaxwell> to be sure your undo data isn't corrupted or wrong.
788 2012-12-30 23:08:09 <stealth222> so you got the undo data from an untrusted source?
789 2012-12-30 23:08:28 <gmaxwell> thats not the primary motivation, though potentially that might happen in the future.
790 2012-12-30 23:08:54 <sipa> no you get it from the most trusted source imaginable, yourself
791 2012-12-30 23:09:03 <sipa> but i'm working on database integrity checking
792 2012-12-30 23:09:23 <stealth222> oh, ok
793 2012-12-30 23:09:30 <stealth222> I thought you were talking about some protocol issue
794 2012-12-30 23:09:40 <sipa> well, it's related
795 2012-12-30 23:09:57 <sipa> at some point we may wish to have blocks that authenticate their own undo data
796 2012-12-30 23:10:10 <gmaxwell> At some point we many want to support fetching undo data from peers. (say you've deleted yours to save space and now your peer is asking you to reorg past that point)
797 2012-12-30 23:10:23 <stealth222> right, that's what I was getting at
798 2012-12-30 23:10:45 <gmaxwell> So it would be handy if (1) you could just remember the hashes, and then delete the undo data trusting you can fetch it from someone else. ... or fetch undo data in a SPVish way from peers.
799 2012-12-30 23:11:05 <gmaxwell> Sipa would like to make his integrity checking not gratitiously incompatible with that.
800 2012-12-30 23:11:42 <gmaxwell> But it's a little lame because ideally the undo data and block would be bound. and if we make the undo data include the block hash then we can't have the block data eventually commit to the undo data.
801 2012-12-30 23:11:47 <gmaxwell> Thats all.
802 2012-12-30 23:12:40 <stealth222> you mean circularity
803 2012-12-30 23:12:50 <sipa> indeed
804 2012-12-30 23:13:09 <sipa> from the current state of things, the best solution seems making the undo data depend on the block data
805 2012-12-30 23:13:24 <sipa> from a future point of view, making the block data depend on the undo data would be even nicer
806 2012-12-30 23:13:27 <sipa> and you can't have both
807 2012-12-30 23:14:25 <stealth222> I see
808 2012-12-30 23:18:57 <sipa> happy new year's eve's morning!
809 2012-12-30 23:19:15 <stealth222> thank you :)
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812 2012-12-30 23:20:34 <stealth222> in 9 hours it will be new years in samoa :)
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816 2012-12-30 23:26:34 <sipa> hmmm; how to do this
817 2012-12-30 23:26:42 <sipa> there are basically two types of checks possible
818 2012-12-30 23:27:03 <sipa> 1) verify block integrity (of data in blk00*.dat)
819 2012-12-30 23:27:11 <sipa> 2) verify coindb integrity
820 2012-12-30 23:27:43 <sipa> the second part basically consists of trying to roll back the database, so it requires step 1 of the blocks being rolled back already
821 2012-12-30 23:27:53 <sipa> but you can't do this very far, as it's memory only
822 2012-12-30 23:28:33 <sipa> and i suppose you'll want to verify more blocks than you can roll back
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824 2012-12-30 23:29:04 <sipa> separate -checkblocks and -checkcoindb ?
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