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 15 2013-01-01 01:02:53 * sipa live from 2013
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 25 2013-01-01 01:59:20 <muhoo> i'm running bitcoinj 0.7-SNAPSHOT (also tried this with 0.5.2 release, same problem), and DnsDiscovery, and every peer it finds is connection refused or no route to host
 26 2013-01-01 01:59:42 <muhoo> i ran it for 24 hours even, 0 connected peers, logs filled with connection refused or timed out
 27 2013-01-01 02:00:03 <muhoo> but, bitcoin c++ node, no problem, on the same machine, same network
 28 2013-01-01 02:00:38 <muhoo> am i doing something wrong, or is bitcoinj not functional?
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 32 2013-01-01 02:03:33 <muhoo> this is what i'm getting, fyi: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7991
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 35 2013-01-01 02:30:19 <muhoo> nevermind, i am an idiot. it's on testnet. doh.
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 76 2013-01-01 04:23:48 <stealth222> happy new year everyone
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239 2013-01-01 17:08:41 novusordo has joined
240 2013-01-01 17:09:30 <novusordo> is the latest github version of bitcoin still using berkeley DB 4.8?
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246 2013-01-01 17:19:21 <sipa> novusordo: the source code uses whatever version of BDB you compile it against
247 2013-01-01 17:19:51 <sipa> release binaries to date have always used 4.8 though (well, 4.7 has been used in the past as well)
248 2013-01-01 17:20:10 <sipa> hello grau
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253 2013-01-01 17:30:26 <grau> hi, first time lurking here
254 2013-01-01 17:31:08 <grau> wonder if its worth installing an irc client
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257 2013-01-01 17:32:05 <Luke-Jr> grau: yes
258 2013-01-01 17:33:37 <grau> ok, the last time I used chat on internet was with compuserve around 1994 I think...
259 2013-01-01 17:33:40 <sipa> grau: activity here varies from 12 hours nothing to pages of very interesting discussion :)
260 2013-01-01 17:33:48 <sipa> grau: welcome, by the way
261 2013-01-01 17:34:00 <grau> thans hapy to see you all aroud
262 2013-01-01 17:34:04 <etotheipi_> grau:  high-five for CompuServe
263 2013-01-01 17:34:14 <novusordo> welcome, grau
264 2013-01-01 17:35:05 <sipa> grau: i'm just looking at the bitsofproof code for the first time; i wonder where the com.bitsofproof.supernode.api sourcecode is?
265 2013-01-01 17:36:17 <sipa> ah, different repository
266 2013-01-01 17:36:28 <grau> Just checked I was 100273,3607 :)
267 2013-01-01 17:37:14 <grau> yes, that is in a separate repository just like supernode-testclient and -cpuminer
268 2013-01-01 17:37:37 <grau> api is a dependency to all, the later two are just ssimple demos
269 2013-01-01 17:41:51 <grau> is there some intro to this or just free talk about whatever you like ?
270 2013-01-01 17:42:13 <Luke-Jr> the latter
271 2013-01-01 17:42:33 <grau> great, thanks Luke
272 2013-01-01 17:43:12 <Luke-Jr> grau: you might (or might not) find #bitcoin-watch useful also (not for chat) if you're debugging transaction code
273 2013-01-01 17:43:32 <Luke-Jr> grau: there's also a multitude of other Bitcoin-related channels
274 2013-01-01 17:44:43 <grau> will check in going forward...
275 2013-01-01 17:45:04 <sipa> grau: any hint on where i can find the code that validates transactions/blocks?
276 2013-01-01 17:45:24 <novusordo> 694e275896107cea391d24417616c9d641e59dca5b126b7ccdb8c615c5f3beef < lol, beef in the transaction
277 2013-01-01 17:45:31 <a1111> Luke-Jr: The black background is not so friendly
278 2013-01-01 17:46:10 <a1111> Luke-Jr: Also, the text is hard to read
279 2013-01-01 17:46:12 <Luke-Jr> a1111: black background is standard/default <.<
280 2013-01-01 17:47:02 <etotheipi_> grau: just be careful with IRC -- I've found myself losing entire days of productivity because of all-too-interesting discussions in here :)
281 2013-01-01 17:47:34 <Luke-Jr> a1111: here's how it looks with an ordinary IRC client: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin-Watch
282 2013-01-01 17:47:39 <grau> sipa: start at https://github.com/bitsofproof/supernode/blob/master/src/main/java/com/bitsofproof/supernode/core/CachedBlockStore.java
283 2013-01-01 17:48:10 <a1111> Luke-Jr: I am using KVIrc
284 2013-01-01 17:48:26 <grau> sipa: the method public void storeBlock (final Blk b)
285 2013-01-01 17:48:40 <a1111> Luke-Jr: http://www.kvirc.net/
286 2013-01-01 17:48:56 <grau> sipa: and public boolean validateTransaction (Tx t, TxOutCache resolvedInputs)
287 2013-01-01 17:49:22 <grau> It is an honor that you take a look.
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289 2013-01-01 17:50:50 <sipa> grau: i think you're missing a piece of logic in the validation
290 2013-01-01 17:50:51 <grau> etotheeipi : since I spend most of my time in a shop with internet access limited and controlled, I wont be tempted. It will however steal more time from my family I guess
291 2013-01-01 17:51:10 <sipa> grau: i may be missing things of course now too
292 2013-01-01 17:51:33 <sipa> grau: it's related to bip 16
293 2013-01-01 17:52:13 <grau> sipa: it seems you all enjoy giving me puzzles :) never mind. Thanks
294 2013-01-01 17:52:42 <sipa> grau: if you prefer i'll just tell you
295 2013-01-01 17:52:48 <a1111> Luke-Jr: http://i.imgur.com/mQbH0.png
296 2013-01-01 17:53:04 <Luke-Jr> a1111: kinda eww
297 2013-01-01 17:53:15 <sipa> my eyes!
298 2013-01-01 17:53:22 <etotheipi_> hold on, mine is even worse
299 2013-01-01 17:53:23 <a1111> sipa: yes mine too
300 2013-01-01 17:54:02 <Luke-Jr> a1111: your client is interpreting the cyan colour codes wrong, using the wrong encoding (should be UTF-8), and ugly font rendering (should be fixed-width, ideally with black background)
301 2013-01-01 17:54:15 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
302 2013-01-01 17:54:28 <Luke-Jr> weird that it's only cyan it messes up
303 2013-01-01 17:54:40 <grau> sipa: I know that I should count number of sigs within scripts I do not yet.
304 2013-01-01 17:54:48 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: I think the point is your color scheme is not friendly to other IRC clients
305 2013-01-01 17:54:49 <grau> is this its?
306 2013-01-01 17:54:57 <sipa> grau: part of it, but the rest is related
307 2013-01-01 17:55:03 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: it's friendly to standard-compatible clients :P
308 2013-01-01 17:55:06 <a1111> etotheipi_: Yes, i agree
309 2013-01-01 17:55:31 <a1111> Luke-Jr: Is it possible for you to remove your color scheme ?
310 2013-01-01 17:55:36 <sipa> grau: in non-bip16, checkmultisig is always counted as 20 (legacy rule); it's only inside bip16 subscripts that the "accurate counting" is used
311 2013-01-01 17:55:44 <Luke-Jr> a1111: it's possible to have some IRC clients filter colours
312 2013-01-01 17:56:11 <Luke-Jr> but much of the usability of -watch comes from the colour-coding
313 2013-01-01 17:56:18 <sipa> grau: i noticed that the accurate counting is the only one implemented
314 2013-01-01 17:56:36 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: you can't just tell people that their software is wrong and expect them to change it when it works for everything else except yours
315 2013-01-01 17:57:39 <grau> sipa : that distinction is made in https://github.com/bitsofproof/supernode-api/blob/master/src/main/java/com/bitsofproof/supernode/api/ScriptFormat.java, method, public static int sigOpCount (byte[] script)
316 2013-01-01 17:58:04 <etotheipi_> http://imgur.com/qkgDc
317 2013-01-01 17:58:18 <sipa> grau: i don't see it
318 2013-01-01 17:58:44 <grau> sipa: it was us cross talking.
319 2013-01-01 17:58:55 <a1111> etotheipi_: http://i.imgur.com/mQbH0.png
320 2013-01-01 17:59:01 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: better than telling people that their software looks bad (due to their viewer's bugs) and expect them to change it by removing a key feature when it works for everything else that is compliant ;)
321 2013-01-01 17:59:03 <a1111> Mine is worse than yours
322 2013-01-01 17:59:43 <sipa> grau: not sure we're saying the same thing
323 2013-01-01 18:00:05 <a1111> Luke-Jr: Please could you remove the color scheme ?
324 2013-01-01 18:00:12 <a1111> my eyes!!!!!
325 2013-01-01 18:00:35 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: yours doesn't look that  bad IMO; just a bit dark mainly
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327 2013-01-01 18:00:40 <etotheipi_> a1111: it's pretty bad for both of us
328 2013-01-01 18:00:42 <grau> sipa: I say countingis implemented there, line 504 refers to BIP16, is not what you look for?
329 2013-01-01 18:00:54 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: but it makes me not want to use it
330 2013-01-01 18:01:06 <Luke-Jr> a1111: would defeat the point
331 2013-01-01 18:01:31 <grau> have to sign-off for lunch. I will be back with a proper clint later
332 2013-01-01 18:01:50 grau has left ()
333 2013-01-01 18:02:07 <a1111> Now my eyes hurt after looking at #bitcoin-watch
334 2013-01-01 18:02:53 <a1111> I might become blind if i stay on #bitcoin-watch too long
335 2013-01-01 18:06:37 * a1111 leave #bitcoin-watch to protect his eyes
336 2013-01-01 18:16:31 GMP has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
337 2013-01-01 18:17:37 <Luke-Jr> a1111: KVirc has a stripcolors function that might work in a script
338 2013-01-01 18:18:17 someone42 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
339 2013-01-01 18:18:53 Gladamas has joined
340 2013-01-01 18:18:54 TwilightSparklee has joined
341 2013-01-01 18:20:07 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
342 2013-01-01 18:26:20 zooko has joined
343 2013-01-01 18:26:21 grau has joined
344 2013-01-01 18:27:35 <grau> back again
345 2013-01-01 18:28:30 TwilightSparklee has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
346 2013-01-01 18:29:33 <sipa> grau: there are 3 sources of sigop counts: a) in txout scripts b) in txin scripts c) for bip16 txins, in the subscript
347 2013-01-01 18:30:06 <sipa> grau: a) and b) are counted "inaccurately" (checkmultisig is always counted as 20), in c) it uses the better formula that you implemented already
348 2013-01-01 18:30:36 <sipa> afaik, you only have a) so far, but with the formula to be used in c)
349 2013-01-01 18:31:00 <grau> thanks will correct
350 2013-01-01 18:31:50 <grau> i am a bit annoyed of complexity inroduced with these rules, at least new ones should be simpler
351 2013-01-01 18:32:16 <grau> e.g. jgarzik started a question today on transaction fees
352 2013-01-01 18:32:26 <grau> I hope whatever it will bve will be simple
353 2013-01-01 18:32:44 <sipa> well if anything, transaction fees are a policy, not a rule
354 2013-01-01 18:33:10 <sipa> getting an policy that multiple client author agree about is certainly better, but it's by no means required
355 2013-01-01 18:34:24 <grau> ok, they do not fork if not same, but have agreat influence to the system.
356 2013-01-01 18:35:08 <sipa> sure
357 2013-01-01 18:35:25 <grau> I wish the policy would be motivated more by costs it imposes to the system
358 2013-01-01 18:36:42 <sipa> well many people agree that the fee policy should take the effect on the UTXO set into account (adding txouts = expensive, consuming txouts = bonus)
359 2013-01-01 18:37:37 <grau> great thet was also my stance. I did not know it is already common
360 2013-01-01 18:37:51 <sipa> nobody suggested an exact formula yet, though
361 2013-01-01 18:38:20 <grau> well I did : numnber of outs/ number of ins * FEE
362 2013-01-01 18:39:11 <sipa> well, sigops should be taken into account as well, imho
363 2013-01-01 18:39:39 <sipa> and that formula has no aging at all (if the priority is not good enough now, waiting a day will not help)
364 2013-01-01 18:39:56 <grau> why should aging help at all ?
365 2013-01-01 18:40:13 tonikt has joined
366 2013-01-01 18:40:18 <grau> it will cost the sztem utxo sooner or later
367 2013-01-01 18:40:18 <sipa> people do expact their transactions to be included if they wait
368 2013-01-01 18:40:29 <sipa> increasing priority should help it get priority
369 2013-01-01 18:40:36 <grau> they should not expect that if they do not pay minimum fee
370 2013-01-01 18:40:37 <sipa> eh, increasing fee should increase priority
371 2013-01-01 18:41:06 <sipa> maybe over time not
372 2013-01-01 18:41:18 <sipa> but a lot of things would break if transactions wouldn't confirm at all
373 2013-01-01 18:41:26 <grau> until there are free transactions no incentive system will work
374 2013-01-01 18:41:31 <sipa> there is - right now - basically no solution for a non-confirming transaction
375 2013-01-01 18:41:38 <sipa> it's in limbo
376 2013-01-01 18:41:38 <grau> this is why we have to eliminate free rider
377 2013-01-01 18:41:53 <sipa> over time, sure
378 2013-01-01 18:42:02 <grau> why wait?
379 2013-01-01 18:42:17 <MC-Eeepc> happy new year dev team
380 2013-01-01 18:42:23 <sipa> because right now it helps making the system more attractive
381 2013-01-01 18:42:23 <MC-Eeepc> and everyone and stuff
382 2013-01-01 18:42:42 <grau> happy new yer
383 2013-01-01 18:42:45 <sipa> you too!
384 2013-01-01 18:43:27 <Scrat> anyone know the current state of the linux PRNG? this (http://www.pinkas.net/PAPERS/gpr06.pdf) implies that livecds always start with a predetermined entropy pool
385 2013-01-01 18:43:37 <grau> i think that a fee smaller than you can express in a fiat currency does not change attractiveness but saves us lots of DoS trouble
386 2013-01-01 18:43:43 <grau> and enables incentives
387 2013-01-01 18:43:51 <Scrat> so if you use one to create privkeys you're basically basing your randomness on a few seconds of mouse movement
388 2013-01-01 18:44:03 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
389 2013-01-01 18:44:04 <sipa> grau: i think the difference between "free" and "ridiculously low" is immense, psychologically
390 2013-01-01 18:44:44 <Scrat> it is my understanding that openssl seeds its prng with /dev/urandom and the pid
391 2013-01-01 18:44:45 <grau> there is no free lunch is what I learned early in my carrier
392 2013-01-01 18:44:50 <grau> i mean career
393 2013-01-01 18:45:02 <sipa> and the only ones getting paid from fees are miners (not all other full nodes in the system), and they already get paid anyway (for now, again)
394 2013-01-01 18:45:17 <sipa> the most important reason for fees right now is anti-DoS
395 2013-01-01 18:45:24 <sipa> not economics of block size
396 2013-01-01 18:45:25 <grau> yes,
397 2013-01-01 18:45:39 <sipa> (which certainly will change, but this is an easy change to make)
398 2013-01-01 18:45:40 <grau> I believe that nodes profit from fees since they contain their load
399 2013-01-01 18:45:48 <grau> that is their implicit benefit
400 2013-01-01 18:46:29 <grau> fees reduce badwith and disk needed and we all buy it, right ?
401 2013-01-01 18:47:05 <sipa> not sure what you mean
402 2013-01-01 18:48:16 <sipa> anyway, i'm no economsit and don't pretend to be - i don't know the best way to incentivize through fees what is necessary
403 2013-01-01 18:48:41 <sipa> what i do know is that (right now), a priority calculation that doesn't take confirmation count into account, would break things badly
404 2013-01-01 18:48:49 <grau> incentives do not work until there is a free ride
405 2013-01-01 18:49:05 <grau> since you can not go below that
406 2013-01-01 18:49:44 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
407 2013-01-01 18:49:55 <sipa> so eventually with feeless transactions, you should expect not more than minimal service (at most best effort)
408 2013-01-01 18:50:04 <sipa> but i'm talking about right now
409 2013-01-01 18:50:55 <grau> you should not expect any service at zero fee
410 2013-01-01 18:51:31 <sipa> well, people *do* - whether they should isn't relevant in the short term
411 2013-01-01 18:51:37 <sipa> in the long term i agree with you
412 2013-01-01 18:51:46 <grau> I do not think people do
413 2013-01-01 18:52:11 <sipa> well, i'm sure there will still be interesting discussions about fee policy
414 2013-01-01 18:52:37 <grau> let see what other say, thanks
415 2013-01-01 18:52:46 <sipa> i´m just trying to say that it's more complex than how you present it
416 2013-01-01 18:52:57 <grau> what is your experience with leveldb ?
417 2013-01-01 18:53:09 <sipa> very good
418 2013-01-01 18:53:22 <sipa> the only problems i've seen so far are on windows
419 2013-01-01 18:53:24 <grau> i see its fast like hell but not yet trusting its consistency
420 2013-01-01 18:53:48 <sipa> well i'm working on coindb (=utxo set) consistency checks now
421 2013-01-01 18:54:02 <sipa> when that is done, i'll experiment with trying to break it :)
422 2013-01-01 18:54:26 <sipa> i trust its consistency far more than BDB in any case, just by the way it works
423 2013-01-01 18:54:29 <grau> i use the batch feature to simulate transactions it does not have. it worked until now
424 2013-01-01 18:54:45 <sipa> batches do guarantee atomic writes
425 2013-01-01 18:55:00 <grau> but have no rollback
426 2013-01-01 18:55:01 <sipa> (as they are written as a single blob to the logfile)
427 2013-01-01 18:55:27 <sipa> indeed
428 2013-01-01 18:57:51 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
429 2013-01-01 18:57:56 jaromil_ is now known as jaromil
430 2013-01-01 18:58:26 skeledrew has joined
431 2013-01-01 19:14:21 <TD> Scrat: any hardware interrupts
432 2013-01-01 19:14:38 <TD> Scrat: from what i know. but yeah, live CDs and other entirely deterministic setups aren't exactly ideal for key generation
433 2013-01-01 19:15:37 vsrinivas has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
434 2013-01-01 19:24:52 Someguy123 has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
435 2013-01-01 19:29:19 <kuzetsa> ?
436 2013-01-01 19:29:46 <kuzetsa> are you suggesting that the random entropy pool can't be established on a livecd?
437 2013-01-01 19:30:06 maaku has joined
438 2013-01-01 19:34:25 yellowhat has joined
439 2013-01-01 19:38:35 Guest16748 has joined
440 2013-01-01 19:46:30 Diapolo has joined
441 2013-01-01 19:46:52 ThomasV has joined
442 2013-01-01 19:47:01 vsrinivas has joined
443 2013-01-01 19:54:28 <Diapolo> sipa: I made a strange observation with one of the changes in your LevelDB1.7 branch
444 2013-01-01 19:55:14 <Diapolo> you added win32:QMAKE_LFLAGS *= -static-libgcc -static-libstdc++ to the project-file and when I leave this in I can only get a testnet OR mainnet instance running
445 2013-01-01 19:55:47 <Diapolo> when one is running and I try to start the other, the to be started instance crashes with an MSVC++ error
446 2013-01-01 19:56:08 <Diapolo> removing that linker flag allows me to use 2 instances like intended
447 2013-01-01 19:56:31 <sipa> wtf...?
448 2013-01-01 19:56:56 <sipa> which error?
449 2013-01-01 19:57:44 zooko has joined
450 2013-01-01 19:57:55 <Diapolo> I need to re-compile and will tell you the exact error.
451 2013-01-01 20:00:30 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
452 2013-01-01 20:00:33 theorb has joined
453 2013-01-01 20:00:43 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
454 2013-01-01 20:01:37 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: Can't is not the same as isn't. A problem with random sources is that it's easy to miss when they're broken.
455 2013-01-01 20:02:44 igetgames has joined
456 2013-01-01 20:03:31 <Diapolo> sipa: "Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime Library: This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusal way. Please contact the application's support team for more information."
457 2013-01-01 20:04:37 <sipa> Diapolo: bleh...
458 2013-01-01 20:04:41 <sipa> anything in debug.log ?
459 2013-01-01 20:05:44 <Diapolo> sipa: nope sorry ... do you have a recent build I could try from you, to see if it's a problem with my local IDE/compiler suite.
460 2013-01-01 20:05:45 guruvan has joined
461 2013-01-01 20:06:21 <sipa> not one without known problems
462 2013-01-01 20:06:29 guruvan has left ()
463 2013-01-01 20:06:46 <Diapolo> one that survives startup seems sufficient in that case
464 2013-01-01 20:08:37 <sipa> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/builds/pre-0.8/2012-12-28-turbo-ldb17/
465 2013-01-01 20:08:43 <Diapolo> I'll try that
466 2013-01-01 20:08:45 <Diapolo> just a sec
467 2013-01-01 20:08:52 <sipa> what OS version are you on?
468 2013-01-01 20:09:46 <Diapolo> Win7 x64 SP1
469 2013-01-01 20:09:50 <sipa> ok
470 2013-01-01 20:11:17 <Diapolo> nice your build doesn't suffer from win32:QMAKE_LFLAGS *= -static-libgcc -static-libstdc++ problems I have, so it's related to my local stuff, good for your work ;)
471 2013-01-01 20:11:38 <sipa> well if it's a problem to build with those settings on windows, it's a problem!
472 2013-01-01 20:11:59 <sipa> and without those settings, binaries won't work without additional libraries
473 2013-01-01 20:12:39 <Diapolo> I'll do some research if these switches are known to cause problems on Win
474 2013-01-01 20:14:07 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
475 2013-01-01 20:14:30 grau has joined
476 2013-01-01 20:14:33 <Diapolo> most obvious thing is file size, your binary is ~20MB, mine is 9MB
477 2013-01-01 20:14:54 grau is now known as Guest57519
478 2013-01-01 20:16:36 rozani has joined
479 2013-01-01 20:18:46 <Diapolo> sipa: seems I didn't build my Qt libs with the -static switch
480 2013-01-01 20:19:09 Guest57519 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
481 2013-01-01 20:21:01 <sipa> gmaxwell: i was able to detect an error when modifying a single byte in (the last) .sst file, and correct by finding a point to roll back to using undo files
482 2013-01-01 20:21:10 <sipa> that's kinda fragile though
483 2013-01-01 20:21:12 zooko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
484 2013-01-01 20:21:23 <sipa> i'm not sure what should happen in such a case
485 2013-01-01 20:22:54 <gmaxwell> sipa: mark the database broken. Refuse to run until reindexed?
486 2013-01-01 20:24:25 <sipa> yeah, the old checkblocks code tried to reorganize until a point before the error
487 2013-01-01 20:24:35 zooko has joined
488 2013-01-01 20:25:13 <sipa> that's only possible in a probabilistic way now
489 2013-01-01 20:25:41 fpgaminer has joined
490 2013-01-01 20:26:33 <gmaxwell> even then was likely to not be correct— e.g. if your index is corrupt it may be corrupt before the depth it checked to too.
491 2013-01-01 20:30:06 rdymac has joined
492 2013-01-01 20:30:18 <sipa> hmm, and what if an error is found in a block file?
493 2013-01-01 20:30:22 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
494 2013-01-01 20:30:59 <sipa> you can try to reorganize until before the faulty block, but that reorganisation is risky, as undoing does need some data from the original blocks
495 2013-01-01 20:30:59 * etotheipi_ mumbles curses under his breath about block file errors
496 2013-01-01 20:32:35 <sipa> ?
497 2013-01-01 20:32:43 <MC-Eeepc> wow i got android bitcoin for testnet to connect to the network once and now it wont find any peers again
498 2013-01-01 20:32:52 <MC-Eeepc> i hope it does, i sent coins to it :/
499 2013-01-01 20:33:48 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
500 2013-01-01 20:35:16 skeledrew has joined
501 2013-01-01 20:36:19 zooko has joined
502 2013-01-01 20:36:36 <MC-Eeepc> ah these it goes
503 2013-01-01 20:37:02 <MC-Eeepc> it didnt boop for receive coins, how disappointing
504 2013-01-01 20:38:09 <MC-Eeepc> i wonder if the guy who makes this android client will try to port the new database stuff from you guys
505 2013-01-01 20:38:22 <MC-Eeepc> i dare not even try to sync the main net on this device....
506 2013-01-01 20:38:27 <sipa> ??
507 2013-01-01 20:38:33 <sipa> it's an SPV client
508 2013-01-01 20:38:45 <sipa> it doesn't store the block chain at all
509 2013-01-01 20:38:59 <MC-Eeepc> no bitcoin wallet for android is a full client
510 2013-01-01 20:39:05 <MC-Eeepc> spinner is the spv one
511 2013-01-01 20:39:16 <sipa> spinner is not a client at all, it relies on a central server
512 2013-01-01 20:39:36 <sipa> and bitcoin wallet for android (by andreas schildbach) is most certainly an SPV client
513 2013-01-01 20:39:51 <MC-Eeepc> oh
514 2013-01-01 20:39:56 <sipa> it runs on BitcoinJ, which (until very recently) only supported SPV in the first place
515 2013-01-01 20:40:06 <sipa> running a full node on a phone would be crazy
516 2013-01-01 20:40:58 <MC-Eeepc> wait what does spv do again
517 2013-01-01 20:41:11 <sipa> verify block headers, but not transactions
518 2013-01-01 20:42:40 * jgarzik reads email
519 2013-01-01 20:42:47 * jgarzik will remove the rest of the 'T's
520 2013-01-01 20:43:08 zooko has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
521 2013-01-01 20:43:18 <sipa> i'm being inconsistent in terminology: spinner is obviously a client (like electrum is), but it doesn't implement a P2P node
522 2013-01-01 20:44:32 zooko has joined
523 2013-01-01 20:46:23 <MC-Eeepc> oh
524 2013-01-01 20:46:47 <MC-Eeepc> and spv checks for the blocks after its txns in order to verify them
525 2013-01-01 20:46:55 <MC-Eeepc> a full node checks all te blocks before it
526 2013-01-01 20:47:07 <sipa> SPV clients don't verify *any* blocks
527 2013-01-01 20:47:21 <sipa> it needs to download them, to check for incoming transactions
528 2013-01-01 20:47:27 <sipa> but it doesn't store nor verify anything
529 2013-01-01 20:47:30 <MC-Eeepc> it verifies that they exist
530 2013-01-01 20:47:31 <sipa> except the headers
531 2013-01-01 20:47:48 zooko` has joined
532 2013-01-01 20:47:58 <MC-Eeepc> it verifies that they exist vis the headers, it doesnt verify the contents, is that right?
533 2013-01-01 20:48:03 <sipa> correct
534 2013-01-01 20:48:11 <MC-Eeepc> ok
535 2013-01-01 20:48:29 <sipa> it downloads full blocks, but only stores and verifies the headers (and checks that the downloaded block data matches the headers, but not that it's valid)
536 2013-01-01 20:49:22 <MC-Eeepc> right so it relies on other full nodes having done the real work, and on its connection to the network not being tampered with is crucial
537 2013-01-01 20:49:33 <MC-Eeepc> whereas a ful node can cope with a tampered connection right
538 2013-01-01 20:49:35 <sipa> not at all
539 2013-01-01 20:49:48 <sipa> the connection is not a problem - it can be tampered with all they want
540 2013-01-01 20:49:52 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
541 2013-01-01 20:50:05 <sipa> the only risk for SPV nodes is an evil miner
542 2013-01-01 20:50:19 <sipa> who creates blocks with valid proof-of-work, but with invalid transactions
543 2013-01-01 20:51:41 <sipa> tampering is exactly what an SPV node would detecty
544 2013-01-01 20:52:17 tonikt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
545 2013-01-01 20:54:12 <MC-Eeepc> the wiki says an sv cn be fooled with a mitm attack
546 2013-01-01 20:54:18 <MC-Eeepc> spv
547 2013-01-01 20:54:34 <gmaxwell> especially if that evil miner can prevent the SPV node from hearing about the real chain— because if they can they don't even have to produce a longer chain for an attack of unbounded duration.
548 2013-01-01 20:54:43 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: yes, but the MITM must also mine.
549 2013-01-01 20:55:33 <weex> mirceapopescue has thrown down a bounty of 100 btc to prove positively or negatively if SD is playing with itself
550 2013-01-01 20:55:46 <MC-Eeepc> ok so
551 2013-01-01 20:56:31 <TD> MC-Eeepc: SPV clients can't verify unconfirmed transactions and therefore rely on the assumption that they are connected to genuine nodes and those nodes are not (all) going to announce invalid transactions
552 2013-01-01 20:56:41 <weex> seems an interesting problem whether it gets worked on or not
553 2013-01-01 20:56:42 <TD> MC-Eeepc: however as the transactions get confirmations the chances of anyone playing games goes down
554 2013-01-01 20:56:51 <gmaxwell> weex: what will he consider proof?
555 2013-01-01 20:56:52 <TD> (assuming those confirmations arrive quickly enough)
556 2013-01-01 20:57:09 grau has joined
557 2013-01-01 20:57:10 <MC-Eeepc> an SPV trusts a consensus (even if thats wrong), a full node verifies everything for itself
558 2013-01-01 20:57:16 <MC-Eeepc> ?
559 2013-01-01 20:57:33 grau is now known as Guest32490
560 2013-01-01 20:57:45 <weex> gmaxwell: not exactly sure but i guess it comes down to taint between raked and played funds
561 2013-01-01 20:57:50 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
562 2013-01-01 20:57:59 <gmaxwell> TD: if the SPV node is isolated they're still in a sad shape. (one reason that I hope we would someday increase the minimum difficulty)
563 2013-01-01 20:58:50 <gmaxwell> weex: its trivial to make simulated play look like isolated users. I suppose that means you could prove that incompetent simulated play was simulated, but you can't prove that competent simulated play is simulated or that non-simulated play is non-simulate.
564 2013-01-01 21:01:01 <MC-Eeepc> so an SPV has little to gain from sipas work, and i could probably try to sync on this android tablet without risk of a fire
565 2013-01-01 21:01:37 <gmaxwell> SPV gains from sipas work by the full nodes that SPV needs to exist continuing to exist. :P
566 2013-01-01 21:02:05 <MC-Eeepc> haha yes quite
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574 2013-01-01 21:11:02 <jgarzik> indeed.  no full nodes, no SPV.
575 2013-01-01 21:13:39 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
576 2013-01-01 21:20:48 skeledrew has joined
577 2013-01-01 21:24:47 <MC-Eeepc> It should be retty viable to have the satoshi client start in spv mode and just do the ful node stuff in the background then right
578 2013-01-01 21:24:56 <MC-Eeepc> perhaps after surveying the host machine to see if thats a good idea
579 2013-01-01 21:25:13 <MC-Eeepc> it would make sync complaints go away overnight
580 2013-01-01 21:25:15 <sipa> patches welcome :)
581 2013-01-01 21:26:04 <MC-Eeepc> lol
582 2013-01-01 21:26:06 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: 'overnight' presumably not including the time to develop and test it.. But yes, thats a good idea and would generally make things much better.
583 2013-01-01 21:26:32 <MC-Eeepc> yeah guys obviously i know you have a lot on the list...
584 2013-01-01 21:26:47 <MC-Eeepc> im just babbling
585 2013-01-01 21:28:12 denisx has joined
586 2013-01-01 21:28:27 <TD> MC-Eeepc: you can use multibit
587 2013-01-01 21:29:42 att__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
588 2013-01-01 21:30:10 <sipa> ideally, i think Bitcoin-Qt just became an SPV client on itself, with the ability to start a bitcoind in a separate process
589 2013-01-01 21:35:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: I like that too— although, if you have your own bitcoind it can be more efficient to run electrum style where you can count on it to scan blocks for you. I guess probably not worth the complexity.
590 2013-01-01 21:35:29 Diapolo has left ()
591 2013-01-01 21:36:52 <sipa> gmaxwell: let's spend time on getting an address-indexed p2p-retrievable UTXO set that is authenticated via the coinbase instead :)
592 2013-01-01 21:38:02 <gmaxwell> I was really hoping that namecoin would go and do that by now, and we could learn from someone elses mistakes.
593 2013-01-01 21:38:05 <gmaxwell> :(
594 2013-01-01 21:38:09 <TD> i think there's enough to do without these sorts of extensions.
595 2013-01-01 21:38:20 <sipa> agree
596 2013-01-01 21:38:59 <sipa> just saying that if we're going to use any kind of optimization by having a fully-indexed blockchain available, we better do it in a way that it's accessible for the entire network
597 2013-01-01 21:39:58 <gmaxwell> TD: dunno if you saw, the bitsofproof thing found and fixed some (but not all) of the issues.
598 2013-01-01 21:40:06 <TD> yes i saw
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600 2013-01-01 21:43:13 <gmaxwell> oh I see you did now.
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618 2013-01-01 22:37:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: in case an inconsistency is found - any reason not to just wipe the coindb immediately and start rebuilding it?
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635 2013-01-01 23:03:49 <gavinandresen> sipa: picking up conversation from github RE: leveldb / mingw / printf :  I think I broke it when I took out the -stdc++0x option
636 2013-01-01 23:04:03 <gavinandresen> See: http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=24832
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640 2013-01-01 23:05:25 <gavinandresen> Fix should be easy:  compile with -posix or -D__USE_MINGW_ANSI_STDIO=1 (or any of about a dozen other flags that will get the mingw *printf routines)
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642 2013-01-01 23:06:17 <sipa> aha, that's good news
643 2013-01-01 23:09:39 <sipa> i'll update the makefiles, do a new build, and ask on the forum to retry
644 2013-01-01 23:10:08 <gavinandresen> I'll see if I can reproduce in my Windows VM, too
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646 2013-01-01 23:12:39 <sipa> gavinandresen: btw, while working on coindb consistency checking, i added a checksum to the on-disk format for the undo files
647 2013-01-01 23:13:00 <sipa> any problems with breaking that?
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651 2013-01-01 23:23:51 <gavinandresen> sipa: no problem from me; there are a small enough number of people running git HEAD that we shouldn't worry too much about compatibility
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664 2013-01-01 23:41:49 <gavinandresen> sipa: my windows VM showed the bug-- I just didn't notice the .(null) files before (and only downloaded the testnet chain, so didn't run out of disk space).
665 2013-01-01 23:42:05 <gavinandresen> sipa: adding PLATFORM_CXXFLAGS="-posix"   fixes it.
666 2013-01-01 23:42:19 <TradeFortress> Hi, I would like to know how to make wallet.dat only accessible to root / su
667 2013-01-01 23:42:29 <gavinandresen> sipa: ... which means the workaround I wrote for the logging 64-bit values can be ripped out, too
668 2013-01-01 23:43:11 <denisx> TradeFortress: "man chmod"
669 2013-01-01 23:43:48 <sipa> gavinandresen: good
670 2013-01-01 23:44:40 <sipa> /home/ubuntu/build/bitcoin/src/leveldb/libleveldb.a(env_win.o):env_win.cc:(.text+0x1bc6): undefined reference to `__imp__PathFileExistsW@4'
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672 2013-01-01 23:44:55 <TradeFortress> Can someone with RPC access get a list of all accounts?
673 2013-01-01 23:45:01 <sipa> yes
674 2013-01-01 23:45:11 <sipa> RPC access == access to the wallet
675 2013-01-01 23:45:34 <sipa> except for spending coins, which may still require the passphrase, but that's not really intended as an authentication mechanism
676 2013-01-01 23:46:32 <TradeFortress> sipa: how would I do so?
677 2013-01-01 23:46:38 <andytoshi> sipa, TradeFortress is hoping to create accounts named with a user's hashed password
678 2013-01-01 23:46:38 <sipa> do what>?
679 2013-01-01 23:46:43 <TradeFortress> get a list of al accounts
680 2013-01-01 23:46:44 <TradeFortress> all*
681 2013-01-01 23:46:47 <andytoshi> but not expose things to his PHP script
682 2013-01-01 23:47:09 <sipa> TradeFortress: listaccounts
683 2013-01-01 23:47:26 <TradeFortress> OK, if I remove the listaccounts call from source it'll work?
684 2013-01-01 23:48:13 <andytoshi> you probably want to disable -every- RPC call except ones you know you need
685 2013-01-01 23:48:19 <sipa> yeah
686 2013-01-01 23:48:24 <TradeFortress> yep
687 2013-01-01 23:48:34 <andytoshi> but yeah, that sounds like a good idea to me
688 2013-01-01 23:48:39 <sipa> and if you need anything that sends coins, i think your efforts are a bit wasted anyway
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697 2013-01-01 23:53:08 <andytoshi> no, if you can keep the account names secret, that's a win no matter what
698 2013-01-01 23:53:17 <andytoshi> as they contain hashed passwords
699 2013-01-01 23:53:35 <andytoshi> the addresses themselves of course will be exposed
700 2013-01-01 23:53:50 <TradeFortress> yes, I only need about 5 RPC calls actually
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702 2013-01-01 23:53:56 <TradeFortress> so I'm going to comment out the rest
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704 2013-01-01 23:54:50 <andytoshi> cool, you know how to use git and everything to keep your changes across upgrades?