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 10 2013-01-04 00:07:41 <ems_> Hi, please if you need Bitcoins you can purchase them direct with your PayPal account and PayPal accepts credit & debit cards so you will have no probs buying your Bitcoins just go to www.bitcoinberudechange.com you pay for your Bitcoins and get them sent back to you in Bitcoins straight to your Bitcoin address. Please spread, the word and get this website out there and let people know it really that hard to buy Bitcoins Now we ha
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 13 2013-01-04 00:10:20 <gmaxwell> as mentioned previously, that site appears to be a scam.
 14 2013-01-04 00:12:41 <Joric> and it looks ugly
 15 2013-01-04 00:13:39 <gmaxwell> I would suggest not even loading it, — if a scammer gets a browser zero day they'll use it.
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 28 2013-01-04 00:39:35 <andytoshi> gaaah, why did you tell me that "electronic signatures" came out of some DSA-related law?
 29 2013-01-04 00:39:50 <andytoshi> they are all over my grad school applications, and they seem so stupid now
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 41 2013-01-04 01:18:57 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: hey, if we had paring based crypography deployed your name could be a real public key. :P
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 54 2013-01-04 02:30:18 <gavinandresen> gladosc: http://blockchain.info/api/blockchain_api  has a list-transactions given an address.  The reference implementation does not.
 55 2013-01-04 02:30:47 <gavinandresen> gladoscc: ^^
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 57 2013-01-04 02:31:29 <gladoscc> gavinandresen: would ther be a way to do it through? if I wanted to use blockchain's APIs I wouldn't have implemented my own block explorer :)
 58 2013-01-04 02:31:53 Dr-X2 has joined
 59 2013-01-04 02:31:56 <gavinandresen> from bitcoind?  No, bitcoind doesn't have an index of address --> transactions
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 61 2013-01-04 02:32:48 <gavinandresen> (it does keep an index of wallet addresses --> transactions, but most people don't care about arbitrary addresses)
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 64 2013-01-04 02:34:10 <sipa> does it?
 65 2013-01-04 02:34:26 <sipa> i don't think so
 66 2013-01-04 02:34:48 <gladoscc> Umm ok, guess I can't implement it then.
 67 2013-01-04 02:35:01 <gavinandresen> sipa is right, it has to scan through all wallet transactions to figure out what is associated with each address
 68 2013-01-04 02:35:04 <sipa> such an index may be added as something optional
 69 2013-01-04 02:35:13 <sipa> but that's not priority now
 70 2013-01-04 02:35:35 <stealth222> you can use bitcoin-abe. I also have an SQL database that I'm thinking about opensourcing
 71 2013-01-04 02:40:52 <stealth222> many people would like these features - but bitcoind can't take care of all problems
 72 2013-01-04 02:40:59 <stealth222> so it would be best to split it up into several projects
 73 2013-01-04 02:41:05 <stealth222> each which tackles certain priorities
 74 2013-01-04 02:42:20 <stealth222> the part of bitcoind that is probably most important from a "reference" standpoint is the verification/block chain engine piece
 75 2013-01-04 02:42:37 <stealth222> script interpreter/block chain engine/relay
 76 2013-01-04 02:43:05 <stealth222> the other components don't really require as much of a "reference" implementation - i.e. wallets, database
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 79 2013-01-04 02:45:51 <lianj> whats your point? that you shouldnt use bitcoind as a block explorer? :P thats known
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 81 2013-01-04 02:52:24 <gmaxwell> uh. Bitcoind (0.7.2) is a pretty great personal block explorer, except it doesn't index by address.
 82 2013-01-04 02:53:41 <gladoscc> mhm. I personally think there should be a lite branch of bitcoind and a full branch
 83 2013-01-04 02:54:02 <gladoscc> but we have 3rd party clients so.
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 91 2013-01-04 03:03:16 <gmaxwell> gladoscc: this isn't a "lite vs full" kind of thing— the data you want is unneeded for what bitcoin itself does.
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 93 2013-01-04 03:03:39 <gmaxwell> it's of historical interest but its quite expensive to maintain.
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134 2013-01-04 06:44:11 <stealth222> it would be nice if bitcoind had build options for storing additional indices, though
135 2013-01-04 06:44:33 <stealth222> or perhaps it's better to just create a completely separate project for that
136 2013-01-04 06:46:08 <stealth222> such functionality is needed for some applications - granted, it's not the most massive market...but pretty much all published solutions to these other things are one-man projects
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141 2013-01-04 07:09:10 <jgarzik> <stealth222> it would be nice if bitcoind had build options for storing additional indices, though
142 2013-01-04 07:09:12 <jgarzik> sure
143 2013-01-04 07:09:16 <jgarzik> or a runtime option
144 2013-01-04 07:09:37 <jgarzik> sipa has mentioned an optional all-transactions index
145 2013-01-04 07:09:57 <jgarzik> the main detail is to avoid using memory and disk resources, when the optional index is disabled
146 2013-01-04 07:10:03 <jgarzik> taking up code space is less of an issue
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149 2013-01-04 07:17:15 <stealth222> right - so a runtime option might be even better
150 2013-01-04 07:17:30 <stealth222> the user can have it create the index later without having to rebuild
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155 2013-01-04 07:25:26 <jgarzik> chain-verf: 215083 records validated
156 2013-01-04 07:25:26 <jgarzik> 156.50user 2.48system 2:41.15elapsed 98PU (0avgtext+0avgdata 873904maxresident)k
157 2013-01-04 07:25:49 <jgarzik> that's with script verification disabled, all other verifications enabled
158 2013-01-04 07:26:32 <sipa> hmm, impressive :)
159 2013-01-04 07:27:20 drivelights has joined
160 2013-01-04 07:27:34 <StarenseN> hello any1 can help me about a Mpex command ?
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164 2013-01-04 07:29:59 <stealth222> jgarzik: is that just checking block headers?
165 2013-01-04 07:31:06 <stealth222> or you're also checking that inputs connect?
166 2013-01-04 07:33:48 <stealth222> so ECDSA_verify is the most expensive operation?
167 2013-01-04 07:34:32 <sipa> yes, certainly
168 2013-01-04 07:35:01 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
169 2013-01-04 07:38:13 <jgarzik> stealth222: full block checking, not only headers
170 2013-01-04 07:38:30 <jgarzik> stealth222: build and check UTXO set
171 2013-01-04 07:38:57 <gmaxwell> script verification disabled probably also means skipping the script interperter and not only ECDSA, though ecdsa is most of the script checking time.
172 2013-01-04 07:39:33 <gmaxwell> sort of boggling how much faster that is than bitcoind.
173 2013-01-04 07:40:56 <sipa> does it build/write undo data?
174 2013-01-04 07:41:09 <stealth222> what program is this?
175 2013-01-04 07:41:25 <sipa> libccoin stuff
176 2013-01-04 07:42:14 <jgarzik> stealth222: https://github.com/jgarzik/picocoin/   "chain-verf" is a libccoin test
177 2013-01-04 07:42:23 <stealth222> thanks
178 2013-01-04 07:42:44 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: correct.  no script checking at all, not only ECDSA skipped.
179 2013-01-04 07:43:26 <jgarzik> sipa: no undo data
180 2013-01-04 07:43:57 <jgarzik> and all this is RAM-based.  UTXO and block headers in RAM. no file I/O.
181 2013-01-04 07:44:46 <gmaxwell> what kind of data structure is the utxo set?
182 2013-01-04 07:45:36 <sipa> i think something can be gained with a better coinsviewcache still in bitcoind
183 2013-01-04 07:45:59 <sipa> right now, it's just a collection of entries, and when it gets too large, it's flushed to disk entirely
184 2013-01-04 07:46:02 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: GHashTable from GLib, (hash) -> (CCoin)
185 2013-01-04 07:46:12 <jgarzik> or CCoins, I always forget if it's plural
186 2013-01-04 07:46:32 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
187 2013-01-04 07:47:10 <sipa> turning it into a MRU cache, which remembers which entried are dirty, should be better
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189 2013-01-04 07:47:25 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: libccoin's bp_utxo data structure mimics bitcoind's: https://github.com/jgarzik/picocoin/blob/master/include/ccoin/core.h#L172
190 2013-01-04 07:47:57 <sipa> jgarzik: CCoins as one represents several coins (different outputs of one tx)
191 2013-01-04 07:48:09 <jgarzik> I'll try to remember ;p
192 2013-01-04 07:48:40 <stealth222> what storage engine are you using? or is it all in memory?
193 2013-01-04 07:48:47 <eljefe_> Question - has anyone compiled any of the Linux miners with Intel compilers?
194 2013-01-04 07:49:28 <sipa> stealth222: all in memory
195 2013-01-04 07:49:37 <gmaxwell> eljefe_: cpuminers are uninteresting for two years now, but any sane ones have their inner loop in handcoded assembly in any case, the compiler shouldn't matter.
196 2013-01-04 07:49:42 <jgarzik> stealth222: file I/O is optional.  right now just flat files are used.  in the chain-verf test, file I/O is disabled.
197 2013-01-04 07:49:50 <jgarzik> for picocoin (the SPV client), file I/O is enabled.
198 2013-01-04 07:50:15 <jgarzik> I dislike all database choices equally
199 2013-01-04 07:50:20 <stealth222> hah
200 2013-01-04 07:50:29 <eljefe_> I ask because I have an Intel Xeon Phi coprocessor (PCIe 228 x86 cores, 6GB DDR5) to play with and I want to compile against Intel's MKL to get auto offload
201 2013-01-04 07:50:59 <eljefe_> ...at least see if it can perform like a GPU
202 2013-01-04 07:51:01 <gmaxwell> eljefe_: send the phi to me and I'll let you know how it goes.
203 2013-01-04 07:51:10 <eljefe_> :)
204 2013-01-04 07:51:49 <gmaxwell> eljefe_: is there an opencl implementation for it? if so — go get one of the opencl miners (perhaps phoenix would be easiest— being that its a simple python wrapper) and kick it until it runs.
205 2013-01-04 07:52:25 <eljefe_> opencl isnt ready for it *yet*
206 2013-01-04 07:52:36 <gmaxwell> None of the old cpu miners are likely to be portable to it without a lot of work, and I'd expect none to get good throughput on phi without hard asm work, just to take advantage of the wider simd on phi.
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208 2013-01-04 07:52:50 <eljefe_> ah..
209 2013-01-04 07:53:00 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: push your GHashTable in mmap. :P
210 2013-01-04 07:53:33 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: moving in that direction actually
211 2013-01-04 07:53:46 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: but making that crash-safe generally means throwing it away
212 2013-01-04 07:53:51 <jgarzik> (or a lot of work)
213 2013-01-04 07:53:59 <gmaxwell> save multiple snapshot of it.
214 2013-01-04 07:54:07 <gmaxwell> sssss
215 2013-01-04 07:54:19 <gmaxwell> snapshots. There we go.
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218 2013-01-04 07:55:28 <jgarzik> "Pardon me while I perform a 400 MB memcpy(3)"
219 2013-01-04 07:56:26 <gmaxwell> feh. real men use the TLB to double map pages.
220 2013-01-04 07:57:08 <gmaxwell> but yea, the real problem isn't the memcpy its double the data on disk, though currently it should be small enough to do that.
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222 2013-01-04 08:01:07 * gmaxwell looks for ctrie implementations
223 2013-01-04 08:02:42 <gmaxwell> disks suck, dealing with the fact that torn writes hose whole sectors sucks.
224 2013-01-04 08:02:55 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: hehe, TLB is not far off
225 2013-01-04 08:04:20 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: one can do an mmap'd hash table... where the underlying pages are discontiguous.  page update (write) creates a new page on disk.  overwritten pages are aged out once likelihood of them not being in OS or disk cache is high.
226 2013-01-04 08:05:39 <jgarzik> not unlike the Tux3 filesystem
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231 2013-01-04 08:16:03 <stealth222> how long before all persistent storage devices are solid state?
232 2013-01-04 08:21:05 <sipa> 42
233 2013-01-04 08:21:14 <Scrat> stealth222: magnetic recording still has a lot of room to improve
234 2013-01-04 08:21:16 <Scrat> not soon :p
235 2013-01-04 08:22:34 <Scrat> NAND will hit a wall at 10nm
236 2013-01-04 08:23:05 <Scrat> memristors/phase change from then. but will they be ready for prime time?
237 2013-01-04 08:28:58 <stealth222> memristor tech doesn't seem too far off
238 2013-01-04 08:31:04 <stealth222> but hard disks are super cheap nowadays
239 2013-01-04 08:31:42 <stealth222> they suck - but they are cheap, ubiquitous, abundant
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245 2013-01-04 08:40:16 <Scrat> it will happen in the mainstream though
246 2013-01-04 08:40:39 <Scrat> 1 TB is good enough for most users and cheap SSDs will get there in a couple of years
247 2013-01-04 08:41:00 <Scrat> combined with the trend to thin clients and the "cloud" (fuck I hate that word)
248 2013-01-04 08:41:08 <stealth222> heh
249 2013-01-04 08:42:16 <stealth222> It's funny when I talk to not-super-technical people about storage and they just say "why don't you just put it the cloud?"
250 2013-01-04 08:43:49 comboy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
251 2013-01-04 08:43:50 <stealth222> as if the universe just provides an infinite, random-access storage medium that doesn't require huge amounts of energy and manpower to operate and maintain
252 2013-01-04 08:45:05 <stealth222> but yeah, I suppose consumer devices are already moving away from disks to SSD
253 2013-01-04 08:45:16 <stealth222> serverside, disks still rule, I suppose
254 2013-01-04 08:49:24 <Scrat> for raw storage sure
255 2013-01-04 08:49:45 <Scrat> if you want to push IOPS you'd be a fool not to use SSDs
256 2013-01-04 08:50:16 <Scrat> enterprise SSDs don't break. they are very reliable
257 2013-01-04 08:51:49 <Scrat> they're awesome as a caching layer for disk arrays too. ZFS L2ARC is a great example of this
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262 2013-01-04 08:55:16 <phantomcircuit> stealth222, as FTTH becomes more common "put it in the cloud" wont sound as ridiculous
263 2013-01-04 08:55:28 <phantomcircuit> 1 gbps ~= sequential write on a conventional hdd
264 2013-01-04 09:00:25 <Scrat> phantomcircuit: it's the latency that kills it so it will only be used for sequential workloads
265 2013-01-04 09:01:01 <phantomcircuit> Scrat, latency to first hop is roughly on par with disk rotational latencies
266 2013-01-04 09:01:11 <phantomcircuit> 10ms vs 3-10ms
267 2013-01-04 09:01:34 <Scrat> true. although that would require edge servers on every ISP
268 2013-01-04 09:01:40 <phantomcircuit> ping google.com i bet you have latency < 15ms
269 2013-01-04 09:02:52 <phantomcircuit> dropbox and friends are all going to lose to the first player that colos within residential isp regional centers
270 2013-01-04 09:03:05 <phantomcircuit> which im guessing is going to be google drive
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272 2013-01-04 09:03:35 <phantomcircuit> they already have enough fiber interconnects to support something like that without any major built out and oh what is this they're doing ftth also?
273 2013-01-04 09:03:36 <phantomcircuit> :)
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276 2013-01-04 09:04:49 <phantomcircuit> Scrat, i just blew your mind bro
277 2013-01-04 09:04:52 <phantomcircuit> *pow*
278 2013-01-04 09:06:44 * Scrat pow
279 2013-01-04 09:06:49 * Scrat 'd
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281 2013-01-04 09:08:56 <Scrat> but there is someone who already is less than 10ms away from 99% of residential connections in the world
282 2013-01-04 09:11:14 <phantomcircuit> Scrat, local host?
283 2013-01-04 09:11:15 <phantomcircuit> lol
284 2013-01-04 09:11:24 <Scrat> akamai
285 2013-01-04 09:11:38 <phantomcircuit> hmm maybe
286 2013-01-04 09:12:17 <phantomcircuit> write caching is a much harder problem to solve than read caching though
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288 2013-01-04 09:12:36 <phantomcircuit> i sort of doubt they have anywhere near the hardware to actually even attempt a solution
289 2013-01-04 09:14:41 <Scrat> edge serving static content is on a different league than having a remote hard drive for sure
290 2013-01-04 09:14:58 <Scrat> or well, vice versa
291 2013-01-04 09:15:05 <Scrat> too much coffeine
292 2013-01-04 09:16:41 <phantomcircuit> Scrat, i can tell you from experience write caching is an absolute bitch to get right
293 2013-01-04 09:16:45 <phantomcircuit> and when you think i've done it
294 2013-01-04 09:16:47 <phantomcircuit> WRONG
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302 2013-01-04 09:20:28 <Scrat> :)
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363 2013-01-04 12:27:59 <Luke-Jr> anyone interested in investigating a potential DoS exploit? (not yet confirmed, so just polling for interest)
364 2013-01-04 12:30:47 <t7> meee
365 2013-01-04 12:36:32 <GMP> http://www.ovh.ie/dedicated_servers/kimsufi_special_edition.xml  2TB hdd dedicateted server
366 2013-01-04 12:37:02 <GMP> 10 eur/mo. good deal for new projects
367 2013-01-04 12:38:34 <SomeoneWeird> wow
368 2013-01-04 12:49:07 <GMP> i know there is Moore's "law" and space/bandwidth prices should keep falling, but thats well beyond the curve, imho
369 2013-01-04 12:50:20 <GMP> 2^64 ipv6's ;)
370 2013-01-04 12:50:24 <sipa> Luke-Jr: eh, sure
371 2013-01-04 12:55:50 ircuser-6 has joined
372 2013-01-04 12:56:09 <MagicalTux> Luke-Jr: tell me more
373 2013-01-04 12:57:18 valparaiso_ has joined
374 2013-01-04 12:57:32 <valparaiso_> Ovh have always been way under average market price. 10 years ago, they already were watercooling their datacenters and selling the heat to the town of roubaix. Their Hw offers seem to be financed by their hosted services. (Been with them since 2004 or something)
375 2013-01-04 12:57:58 <valparaiso_> Now: ovh's support sucks, if you compare with, for ex. Rackspace.
376 2013-01-04 12:58:58 valparaiso_ has quit (Quit: Salamalecum....)
377 2013-01-04 12:59:01 <GMP> lol, rackspace... who needs support if you can netboot
378 2013-01-04 12:59:52 TD has joined
379 2013-01-04 13:00:05 <Scrat> when a hardware component fails
380 2013-01-04 13:00:07 <Scrat> you need support
381 2013-01-04 13:00:54 <Scrat> softlayer once replaced a bad drive in a few minutes for me
382 2013-01-04 13:00:57 <Scrat> you get what you pay for
383 2013-01-04 13:01:36 <GMP> agreed, but at a price softlayer asks you can order multiple servers at ovh
384 2013-01-04 13:02:57 <Scrat> its all a matter of compromise. can you afford to stay offline or not. in most cases the server costs are a tiny percentage of the entire business
385 2013-01-04 13:04:04 <Scrat> if you're selling razor thin margin VPS softlayer will be horrible for you
386 2013-01-04 13:09:40 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
387 2013-01-04 13:10:32 <stealth222> what's the DoS exploit?
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391 2013-01-04 13:16:52 <Luke-Jr> MagicalTux: sipa: looking more like something going crazy with postgres at this point, still not sure if bitcoind was involved :/
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426 2013-01-04 15:35:34 <t7> whats that VM you guys use for win builds?
427 2013-01-04 15:36:40 <sipa> gitian?
428 2013-01-04 15:36:49 <t7> ah yes
429 2013-01-04 15:36:52 <sipa> running under lxc or kvm
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435 2013-01-04 15:53:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: should level 3 remember the number of txouts available for each step, and level 4 check that number?  Mostly I'm thinking about the top-most block. If its txouts didn't all make it into the coins database due to a poorly timed shutdown+atomiticty fail, it still might undo fine. Though redoing it would result in a different number of transactions.
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439 2013-01-04 16:18:30 <gigavps> is it normal for debug.log to show a lot of errors when first loading up the blockchain?
440 2013-01-04 16:20:07 <gmaxwell> There are some cases where it says error which are normal especially during the initial blockchain download, yes. What are you seeing?
441 2013-01-04 16:20:43 <gigavps> ORPHAN BLOCK
442 2013-01-04 16:20:55 <gigavps> prev tx not found
443 2013-01-04 16:21:12 <gmaxwell> Yes, those are normal and expected during the ibd.
444 2013-01-04 16:21:20 <gigavps> cool, thanks
445 2013-01-04 16:22:00 <gigavps> would you say this is a good way to setup bitcoind -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=965.msg349040#msg349040
446 2013-01-04 16:22:36 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't use 0.3.24! :P
447 2013-01-04 16:23:52 <gigavps> lol
448 2013-01-04 16:23:56 <gigavps> with 0.7.2
449 2013-01-04 16:23:59 <gigavps> lol
450 2013-01-04 16:24:02 <gmaxwell> thats basically how I have mine setup, though my bitcoinds all have their rpcs on other ports because I'm running many of them. I've never had cause to change my rpctimeout.
451 2013-01-04 16:24:19 <gigavps> kk
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453 2013-01-04 16:25:50 <gigavps> i was going to restrict access to 8332 via iptables instead of bitcoind conf, this seem reasonable? is there any reason to use the conf over iptables?
454 2013-01-04 16:26:14 <Luke-Jr> gigavps: by default, it only binds RPC on localhost anyway
455 2013-01-04 16:26:50 <Luke-Jr> gigavps: most OS today have some kind of proper package for bitcoind
456 2013-01-04 16:27:05 <Luke-Jr> which would be better
457 2013-01-04 16:27:21 <gmaxwell> Belt and suspenders. If that daemon has a wallet and _something_ screws up the iptables setting (E.g. you're debugging and you flush it) and you've otherwise exposed the rpc, you're totally @#$@#ed.
458 2013-01-04 16:27:34 <Luke-Jr> eg for ubuntu: https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin
459 2013-01-04 16:27:37 <gmaxwell> So if you can reasonably use the daemon's rpc filtering I think you should too.
460 2013-01-04 16:28:04 Diapolo has joined
461 2013-01-04 16:28:32 <gmaxwell> I run seperate nodes for mining and for facing the public. The rationale is that having a ton of connections to potentially slow peers can really slow down bitcoind. So my mining nodes connect to each other, and to my public nodes.. and a couple of 'trusted' external nodes (e.g. one of luke's nodes, jeff's public nodes, etc) each.
462 2013-01-04 16:28:59 <gmaxwell> (the multiple nodes also let me test new versions without disrupting everything)
463 2013-01-04 16:29:45 <Luke-Jr> gigavps: otoh, if you're going to be applying those bitcoind patches I mentioned a few weeks ago, you'll have to build from source anyway
464 2013-01-04 16:30:21 gnk has joined
465 2013-01-04 16:30:49 <gigavps> Luke-Jr i have the src folder so i can just replace it with a git clone of the 0.7.2 tag and apply the patches
466 2013-01-04 16:30:54 <Diapolo> Anyone having display problems with Github recently? I see text under the "Discussion" tab, but "Commits" and "Files Changed" won't load...
467 2013-01-04 16:31:18 <Luke-Jr> gigavps: that won't update the binaries from the package, note
468 2013-01-04 16:31:26 gnk has left ()
469 2013-01-04 16:31:39 <gigavps> ahhh
470 2013-01-04 16:31:50 gnk has joined
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472 2013-01-04 16:32:04 <gigavps> well, i'm most of the way there
473 2013-01-04 16:32:34 <gigavps> my poor little server is being crushed with the blk chain download
474 2013-01-04 16:35:29 <Diapolo> No one?
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492 2013-01-04 17:18:04 <TD> does anyone know anything about http://btchip.com/ ?
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512 2013-01-04 17:42:03 <sipa> gmaxwell: disconnectblock verifies that a tx being disconnected results in its exact txouts being removed
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518 2013-01-04 17:51:03 <Tykling> is there an rpc command to move btc from one account to another in bitcoind ?
519 2013-01-04 17:51:12 <Tykling> do I just send to the address of the other account ?
520 2013-01-04 17:51:40 <andytoshi> Tykling: yes
521 2013-01-04 17:51:50 <jgarzik> Tykling: yes the "move" RPC command
522 2013-01-04 17:52:34 <andytoshi> you can't move btc meaningfully without informing the network
523 2013-01-04 17:52:44 <andytoshi> what does 'move' do, jgarzik?
524 2013-01-04 17:52:47 <Tykling> jgarzik: hah, ofcourse I don't know how I missed that, thanks :)
525 2013-01-04 17:53:11 Joric has quit ()
526 2013-01-04 17:54:28 <jgarzik> andytoshi: it makes an accounting entry, without touching the network
527 2013-01-04 17:55:45 <andytoshi> oh, okay, i thought "accounts" were just lists of addresses
528 2013-01-04 17:57:01 <sipa> addresses are associated with accounts, so that incoming transactions increase the balance of the right account
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530 2013-01-04 17:57:17 <sipa> but they are unrelated to addresses otherwise
531 2013-01-04 17:57:29 <sipa> just virtual balances
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535 2013-01-04 18:03:14 <gavinandresen> sipa: I just noticed that the gettxout RPC call spit out integer "amount" ... which is inconsistent with all of the other "amount"s in the RPC.  Was that on purpose and/or discussed?
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543 2013-01-04 18:23:05 <Matt_von_Mises> I'm not sure on the exact way the satoshi client manages the transaction index. During a reorganisation, I'm assuming transactions are removed from the index. But what about transactions that are overwritten as allowed by BIP30? There would need to be some form of count to remember the number of instances of that transaction.
544 2013-01-04 18:25:57 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: No, BIP30 specifically forbids overwriting an unspent transaction precisely because there is no such count.
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546 2013-01-04 18:29:07 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell: Yes but what about the spent transactions? When reorganising, a problem would occur as to know when to remove the transaction from the index (You do not want to remove it for earlier instances during reorganisation because you'd still want to to refer to unspent outputs which would be re-added during re-organisation). The way that came to my mind is to keep count of the number of instances and delete the transaction from the index
547 2013-01-04 18:29:59 <Matt_von_Mises> So does bitcoin keep transactions in the index forever or something? I thought it didn't and I saw nothing in the BIP30 code that seemed to deal with this. Or maybe I'm tired and not thinking straight.
548 2013-01-04 18:30:07 <gmaxwell> The satoshi doesn't index them at all anymore.
549 2013-01-04 18:30:26 <gmaxwell> (spent transactions)
550 2013-01-04 18:31:32 <gmaxwell> If unspent outputs that consumed it were readded then it itself was unspent.
551 2013-01-04 18:32:53 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell: So upon re-adding an unspent output that makes a transaction unspent, it does what? Look through the entire block-chain for the transaction?
552 2013-01-04 18:33:23 <Matt_von_Mises> Oh, I'm guessing this is something those undo files are for
553 2013-01-04 18:33:50 <Matt_von_Mises> I'm not too familiar with the new "ultraprune" stuff.
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555 2013-01-04 18:34:00 <gmaxwell> Yes, thats what the undo files are for.
556 2013-01-04 18:34:36 <Matt_von_Mises> OK thanks, I better be off.
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559 2013-01-04 18:43:30 <TD> bitpay works very well these days
560 2013-01-04 18:43:36 <TD> it's a while since i last used them
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565 2013-01-04 18:59:28 <sipa> gavinandresen: never thought about it really
566 2013-01-04 18:59:44 <sipa> i don't mind changimg that for consistencu
567 2013-01-04 19:00:06 <gavinandresen> sipa: great
568 2013-01-04 19:01:33 andytoshi has joined
569 2013-01-04 19:04:05 <gavinandresen> sipa: also with the gettxout: "scriptPubKey" isn't consistent with the decoderawtransaction output, it is missing "type" "addresses" and "reqSigs" keys
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571 2013-01-04 19:05:21 <sipa> ok
572 2013-01-04 19:06:30 <sipa> gmaxwell: did i answer your question about step 3 remembering counts for step 4?
573 2013-01-04 19:07:03 <gmaxwell> Yes! And I didn't believe you and went and checked. And it looks good.
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575 2013-01-04 19:10:01 <sipa> ha
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586 2013-01-04 19:38:24 <promile> hallo
587 2013-01-04 19:40:05 <jgarzik> ni hao
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605 2013-01-04 19:58:26 MC1984 has joined
606 2013-01-04 19:59:15 <MC1984> j
607 2013-01-04 20:05:04 <andytoshi> k
608 2013-01-04 20:05:13 <grau> l
609 2013-01-04 20:05:17 <sipa> m
610 2013-01-04 20:06:12 <Cusipzzz> n
611 2013-01-04 20:08:07 <MC1984> wow and i get ahouted at for off topic
612 2013-01-04 20:08:43 <sipa> we were reciting the characters in base58 encoding... how can that be off-topic?
613 2013-01-04 20:09:38 <sipa> oh, l isn't
614 2013-01-04 20:09:40 <sipa> :)
615 2013-01-04 20:10:13 <MC1984> i wouldnt know either way#
616 2013-01-04 20:10:25 <grau> you figured before computing the checksum?
617 2013-01-04 20:11:09 <MC1984> ok since the -dev police is asleep
618 2013-01-04 20:11:32 <MC1984> anyone good at looking up chemical hazards and protective equipment?
619 2013-01-04 20:11:48 <MC1984> i want to handle nitromethane
620 2013-01-04 20:12:33 <MC1984> i ask in here becuae you guys are probbly the cleverest people i know on the internet right now
621 2013-01-04 20:12:52 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
622 2013-01-04 20:13:38 <MC1984> sorry for the typing, ive read that ethanol counters methanol poisoning so im drnining vokda
623 2013-01-04 20:14:14 <sipa> you drank methanol?
624 2013-01-04 20:14:19 <MC1984> nono
625 2013-01-04 20:14:42 <MC1984> i may have got some on my skin or inhaled some fumes, but i dont think o
626 2013-01-04 20:14:45 <MC1984> but im paranoid
627 2013-01-04 20:15:08 <MC1984> tl;dr i bought a 2 stroke RCcar and it runs on nitromethane
628 2013-01-04 20:16:07 <andytoshi> MC1984: you'll be fine, just wash the affected area
629 2013-01-04 20:16:15 <andytoshi> also, nitromethane is not like methanol
630 2013-01-04 20:16:26 <MC1984> its 16% nitro
631 2013-01-04 20:16:31 <MC1984> so the rest is methanol
632 2013-01-04 20:16:52 <andytoshi> is that right? i forget that "methane" means "methXXX" in marketingspeak
633 2013-01-04 20:17:07 <andytoshi> like "methylene chloride" is actually dichloromethane
634 2013-01-04 20:17:37 <andytoshi> in any case, i once splilt KOH suspended in methanol on my hand
635 2013-01-04 20:17:39 <sipa> methane is not methanol]
636 2013-01-04 20:17:52 <andytoshi> the base tore open the skin in seconds, and i ran to the bathroom to wash it off
637 2013-01-04 20:18:02 <andytoshi> i had a rash for a month or so, but i've been fine since
638 2013-01-04 20:18:37 sgornick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
639 2013-01-04 20:18:40 <andytoshi> if you were poisoned, you wouldn't be typing right now
640 2013-01-04 20:18:43 <andytoshi> so you're fine
641 2013-01-04 20:19:14 <MC1984> i have other health issues that seem to be uduly exacerbated by chemical exposure
642 2013-01-04 20:19:24 <andytoshi> if you were to drink methanol (say, in homemade "hard liquor") you'd be blind in a minute or so, dead within ten
643 2013-01-04 20:19:42 <andytoshi> in any case, check wikipedia for a MSDS
644 2013-01-04 20:19:48 <MC1984> MSDS?
645 2013-01-04 20:19:51 <andytoshi> or, one should have come with the racecar kit
646 2013-01-04 20:20:03 <andytoshi> material safety data sheet -- it contains a wealth of information
647 2013-01-04 20:20:19 <andytoshi> and one exists for most any chemical you will encounter
648 2013-01-04 20:20:27 <MC1984> http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0522.htm i think this is it?
649 2013-01-04 20:20:45 <andytoshi> looks right
650 2013-01-04 20:21:14 <MC1984> if im gonna lvel with you guys,, the problem is that i have tinnitus which i struggle with every day, and i concider it of paramount importance that it not get any worse
651 2013-01-04 20:21:29 sgornick has joined
652 2013-01-04 20:21:51 <andytoshi> if you were outside when this happened, you will be OK
653 2013-01-04 20:21:59 <MC1984> so it turns out methanol is neurotoxic somewhat and maybe im a bit paranoid
654 2013-01-04 20:22:16 <andytoshi> yes, methanol is very very toxic, but this is not methanol
655 2013-01-04 20:22:24 <MC1984> yeah outside,i also had vinyl gloves on
656 2013-01-04 20:22:37 <andytoshi> the MSDS says you might get a rash if you spill it on your skin, that's all
657 2013-01-04 20:22:50 <andytoshi> if you were outside using racecar amounts, there is no risk of inhalation
658 2013-01-04 20:22:54 <MC1984> this fuel i have is 16% nitro so i thought the rest is methanol?
659 2013-01-04 20:23:15 <MC1984> the fueltank on this little thing is like 75ml so its a small amunt lol
660 2013-01-04 20:23:29 <andytoshi> i doubt it's methanol, but i dunno
661 2013-01-04 20:23:41 <andytoshi> i think it's 16% CH3NO2, the rest solvent
662 2013-01-04 20:24:23 <MC1984> "In model aircraft and car glow fuel, the primary ingredient is generally methanol with some nitromethane (0% to 65%, but rarely over 30%. "
663 2013-01-04 20:24:26 <MC1984> wiki
664 2013-01-04 20:24:37 <andytoshi> oh, there ya go, it is methanol
665 2013-01-04 20:24:41 <andytoshi> but even so, you're okay
666 2013-01-04 20:24:51 <andytoshi> it was a very small amount, you didn't consume it, and you didn't inhale it
667 2013-01-04 20:24:51 <MC1984> yeah im cool
668 2013-01-04 20:24:57 <MC1984> i just got to chill the fuck out
669 2013-01-04 20:25:08 <andytoshi> i promise you'll be fine :)
670 2013-01-04 20:25:37 <jgarzik> MC1984: drink some, to balance exterior and interior exposure!
671 2013-01-04 20:25:45 <MC1984> i wouldnt be tweaking over it, but as i said ive noticed chemical sensitivity since i got tinnitus
672 2013-01-04 20:25:51 <MC1984> sucks more balls than you can imagine
673 2013-01-04 20:26:09 <jgarzik> loud punk rock cures tinnitus
674 2013-01-04 20:26:33 <MC1984> ha yeah while youre there
675 2013-01-04 20:26:40 <MC1984> when you go home, oh boy
676 2013-01-04 20:27:13 <MC1984> i couldnt eve get the damn thing started, it coughed once
677 2013-01-04 20:27:40 <MC1984> i just wanted something cool for me and my lil bro to dick around with
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680 2013-01-04 20:32:08 <owowo> the more u talk about tinnitus, the more u pay attention to it  and the more u read about it on the internet, the worse it is. exercise, fresh air and learning some meditation technique help
681 2013-01-04 20:32:41 <MC1984> yeh
682 2013-01-04 20:32:49 <MC1984> it gets worse with stress mianly
683 2013-01-04 20:33:00 <MC1984> its my personal demon
684 2013-01-04 20:33:33 <jgarzik> Had it all my life.  It frustrated me to the point of tears when I was 9 years old, but it is now just background noise.
685 2013-01-04 20:33:59 <owowo> and make it ur friend, like when u can't sleep or someone is annoying u, just concentrate on that nice 10khz  sound in ur head
686 2013-01-04 20:34:07 <MC1984> yeah ive learned to livewith it 95% of the time
687 2013-01-04 20:34:09 <jgarzik> It just Would Not Go Away.
688 2013-01-04 20:34:33 <MC1984> sometimes it is literally like a rape alarm, and thats when i get the headaches
689 2013-01-04 20:34:53 <gmaxwell> some people have surgery to deaden it. though it harms your hearing too and isn't always successful.
690 2013-01-04 20:35:08 <MC1984> sometimes triggers a panic attack,its not a good feeling for a man
691 2013-01-04 20:35:26 <MC1984> nah im not at the point of getting my inner ear scraped out lol
692 2013-01-04 20:35:46 <owowo> surgery does not help, because it is not in the ears it is a feedback-loop in ur brain
693 2013-01-04 20:36:03 <jgarzik> I had a ton of ear infections as a toddler.  Pretty sure that was the cause.  My hearing is surprisingly good when I'm concentrating on hearing tests, but I doubt surgery would fix much.
694 2013-01-04 20:36:06 <MC1984> yeah, i do have hearing damage too
695 2013-01-04 20:36:19 <gmaxwell> There are different causes of tinnitus.
696 2013-01-04 20:36:21 <MC1984> im missing 2-6khz in my right ear
697 2013-01-04 20:36:41 <MC1984> so its loss induced
698 2013-01-04 20:37:59 <owowo> it's even more fun when it come with hyperacusis
699 2013-01-04 20:38:02 <owowo> ;o)
700 2013-01-04 20:38:18 <MC1984> yeah my hearing is normal apart from the 4khz total loss on one side which ive had since a child, but the rinigng only got bad about 4 years ago after i tried a course of prozac, it just went mental
701 2013-01-04 20:39:03 <MC1984> so now im paranoid lol
702 2013-01-04 20:39:10 <owowo> lol
703 2013-01-04 20:39:29 <owowo> and i feel that pressure in my ears
704 2013-01-04 20:39:54 <MC1984> yeah i had that and the hyperacusis fo the first two years
705 2013-01-04 20:40:08 <MC1984> i had to put ear plugs in to go shopping
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708 2013-01-04 20:49:09 <casasciu_> interesting... I am not sure that ethanol will properly counteract methanol in this case.  The way I understand it, methanol itself isn't the poison, it's what the liver converts methanol in to.  getting drunk ties up the resource that would convert the methanol
709 2013-01-04 20:49:29 <casasciu_> giving it a chance to be excreted from the body without the dangerous conversion
710 2013-01-04 20:51:27 <MC1984> yeah thats what i read
711 2013-01-04 20:51:48 <MC1984> the etharol ties up the enzymes that wouldconvert methanol to formic acid
712 2013-01-04 20:52:09 <MC1984> and formic acid is bad
713 2013-01-04 20:52:48 <MC1984> the usual indication for proper methanol poisoniong is an alcohol IV
714 2013-01-04 20:53:17 <MC1984> but in leiu i thought bottle of 80 proof vodka lol
715 2013-01-04 20:53:57 <MC1984> i should probably not try and pretend im House though
716 2013-01-04 20:54:01 MobPhone has joined
717 2013-01-04 20:54:41 <casasciu_> that sucks to have that
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747 2013-01-04 22:24:43 dezzzdan has joined
748 2013-01-04 22:24:47 <dezzzdan> PURCHASE BITCOINS RIGHT NOW INSTANTLY WITH YOUR DEBIT/CREDIT CARD AND PAYPAL GO TO WWW.BITCOINBERUDECHANGE.COM
749 2013-01-04 22:24:52 dezzzdan has left ()
750 2013-01-04 22:26:46 one_zero has joined
751 2013-01-04 22:30:48 <gmaxwell> Why freenode lets their web gateway get buy normally crafted IP blocks is beyond me.
752 2013-01-04 22:31:21 <gmaxwell> Obviously BITCOINBERUDECHANGE is a scam run by idiots. I advise against even loading the domain, as eventually they'll find some browser exploit to put there.
753 2013-01-04 22:31:48 * ThomasV can't refrain
754 2013-01-04 22:32:58 <ThomasV> "2332 Cotner Ave, Los Angeles, CA, 90064"  seems legit
755 2013-01-04 22:35:49 TheEslbear has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
756 2013-01-04 22:38:21 sgornick has joined
757 2013-01-04 22:40:21 <ThomasV> I tried it. entered an incorrect bitcoin address. it did not complain :)
758 2013-01-04 22:43:09 sytse has quit (Quit: restart)
759 2013-01-04 22:45:52 <MC1984> isnt that that housewith 50000 businesses registered in it
760 2013-01-04 22:50:05 andytoshi has joined
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767 2013-01-04 22:53:42 <ThomasV> hmm, they have someone answering question on their webchat.
768 2013-01-04 22:53:48 <ThomasV> (not a bot)
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