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16 2013-01-06 01:05:22 <da2ce7_d> sipa: yeah that would be great!
17 2013-01-06 01:07:37 <da2ce7_d> ok, I'm off bbl guys.
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61 2013-01-06 02:53:44 <MC1984> 270mb logfile muh balls
62 2013-01-06 02:54:10 <etotheipi_> MC1984: mine is 5.5 GB
63 2013-01-06 02:54:43 <etotheipi_> not sure why it doesn't get cleared out
64 2013-01-06 02:54:47 <MC1984> open it lol
65 2013-01-06 02:54:57 <Diapolo> 5.5GB Log? holy shit ^^
66 2013-01-06 02:55:09 <etotheipi_> yeah... we never figured out why it's doing that
67 2013-01-06 02:55:42 <etotheipi_> actually, I deleted it about a week ago... and now it's already 117 MB again
68 2013-01-06 02:56:49 <Diapolo> you are talking about debug.log?
69 2013-01-06 02:57:49 <etotheipi_> yeah
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74 2013-01-06 03:00:50 <Diapolo> with -debug switch?
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78 2013-01-06 03:03:09 <etotheipi_> oh, yeah
79 2013-01-06 03:03:14 <etotheipi_> i do have that switch on
80 2013-01-06 03:03:24 <etotheipi_> I didn't realize my panel button was using that
81 2013-01-06 03:05:44 <Diapolo> with that switch the log can grow rather large indeed
82 2013-01-06 03:06:12 <etotheipi_> well I feel silly
83 2013-01-06 03:06:20 <etotheipi_> I didn't realize I ever added that to my launcher
84 2013-01-06 03:12:14 <MC1984> Connect 593 transactions: 110438.80ms (186.237ms/tx, 54.727ms/txin)
85 2013-01-06 03:12:15 <MC1984> 2013-01-06 02:41:33 - Verify 2018 txins: 194109.11ms (96.189ms/txin)
86 2013-01-06 03:12:23 <MC1984> guys......
87 2013-01-06 03:19:47 <gmaxwell> MC1984: how'd you manage that? 110 second for a lbock there? pretty cool.
88 2013-01-06 03:20:16 <MC1984> thats how i roll
89 2013-01-06 03:20:23 <gmaxwell> (and there are people who argue that 10 minute blocks is too long! :P)
90 2013-01-06 03:20:42 <gmaxwell> MC1984: is that unusual for the number of transactions or are you running this on a TI-85?
91 2013-01-06 03:20:53 <MC1984> this machine is 1.6ghz 1gb rams
92 2013-01-06 03:20:57 <MC1984> normal hdd
93 2013-01-06 03:21:29 <gmaxwell> kinda disappointing. then again.. 2018 txn is that testnet3 or did someone mine a max sized block on mainnet?
94 2013-01-06 03:21:40 <MC1984> main
95 2013-01-06 03:21:57 <MC1984> i think this machine was running AV scan at the same time
96 2013-01-06 03:22:39 <gmaxwell> on 2018 txins.. not so bad.
97 2013-01-06 03:22:45 <gmaxwell> s/on/oh/
98 2013-01-06 03:23:03 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it would be interesting to see some more numbers.. if the AV was doing something, wellâ can't help that.
99 2013-01-06 03:23:34 <MC1984> its not now but its currently choking on dicks trying to start bitcoin again with a nearly omplete chain
100 2013-01-06 03:24:06 TheEslbear has joined
101 2013-01-06 03:24:57 <MC1984> i hope killing the process doesnt mess up lbd
102 2013-01-06 03:25:46 <MC1984> ok its finally loaded
103 2013-01-06 03:27:30 <MC1984> ok this logfile has got to go
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105 2013-01-06 03:29:07 <MC1984> i wish the splash screen wasnt so broken in qt
106 2013-01-06 03:29:35 <MC1984> i dont know what its doing now, i just have a suare with an image of what was infront of it
107 2013-01-06 03:30:13 <gmaxwell> MC1984: when did it break?
108 2013-01-06 03:30:27 <MC1984> its alwaus been like that
109 2013-01-06 03:30:36 <Diapolo> What OS do you have?
110 2013-01-06 03:30:46 <MC1984> xp
111 2013-01-06 03:30:50 <MC1984> i beleive its the same on 7
112 2013-01-06 03:31:05 <Diapolo> then it should not mess up... can you explain a little more in detail
113 2013-01-06 03:31:11 <gmaxwell> Hm. I've never noticed it being broken. ... but it does generally seem kinda dumb to me.. (gets in the way when loading is taking manny seconds)
114 2013-01-06 03:31:58 <MC1984> it always stays behind all windows
115 2013-01-06 03:32:07 <Diapolo> that splash screen for sure needs to die ^^
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117 2013-01-06 03:32:24 <MC1984> no its cool just fix it
118 2013-01-06 03:32:24 <Diapolo> I just had not the motivation to look into how this can be done :D
119 2013-01-06 03:32:49 <Diapolo> so you suggest it should be a topmost window all the time?
120 2013-01-06 03:33:54 <MC1984> it should just act like any other just launched program prob
121 2013-01-06 03:34:40 <Diapolo> what do you mean it always stays behind all windows then?
122 2013-01-06 03:34:57 <MC1984> wowwwww i would do you a screenshot if i could open my browser
123 2013-01-06 03:35:19 <Diapolo> you start bitcoin-qt and just wait ... you should see that screen. You start your browser for example and it's window will hide the splash screen.
124 2013-01-06 03:35:46 <MC1984> not only does it hide it, its bugged too
125 2013-01-06 03:36:20 <MC1984> it copies whatever was infront of it
126 2013-01-06 03:36:36 <Diapolo> you should create an issue on Github and add some screenies IMO
127 2013-01-06 03:37:53 <MC1984> github makes me scared and angry
128 2013-01-06 03:38:16 <Diapolo> I really can't reproduce your findings
129 2013-01-06 03:38:34 <Diapolo> I always can read what Qt is doing and writing in the splash screen
130 2013-01-06 03:39:48 <MC1984> http://imgur.com/f8P7I
131 2013-01-06 03:39:58 <MC1984> i dont have findings, its just always been like that
132 2013-01-06 03:40:22 <MC1984> its not drawing properly, mirroring irc infront of it
133 2013-01-06 03:40:46 <Diapolo> do you have a recent graphics driver installed?
134 2013-01-06 03:41:12 <MC1984> this machine is six years old lol
135 2013-01-06 03:41:43 <Diapolo> what prevents you from giving it a recent driver?
136 2013-01-06 03:42:11 <Diapolo> either it is to slow (I/O) or it has some faulty graphics driver
137 2013-01-06 03:42:14 <Diapolo> too
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139 2013-01-06 03:42:36 <Diapolo> what you observe is NOT standard or default ;)
140 2013-01-06 03:43:05 <MC1984> Plug and Play Monitor (1024x768@60Hz)
141 2013-01-06 03:43:05 <MC1984> Intel(R) 82852/82855 GM/GME Graphics Controller
142 2013-01-06 03:44:07 <MC1984> Memory 64 MB
143 2013-01-06 03:44:08 <MC1984> Memory type 2
144 2013-01-06 03:44:08 <MC1984> Driver version 6.14.10.3929
145 2013-01-06 03:44:17 <MC1984> driver is whatever windows installed.....
146 2013-01-06 03:44:46 <Diapolo> goto intel.com support and auto driver update, perhaps that helsp
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149 2013-01-06 03:47:21 <Diapolo> I'm out for now ^^
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151 2013-01-06 03:48:30 <MC1984> playing with dbcache makes bitcoin take a long time to start
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205 2013-01-06 10:28:58 molecular has joined
206 2013-01-06 10:30:30 <molecular> I'm having problems connection to network using v0.7.1-289-g1f4fdb7-beta. all connections either time out (~90%) or fail with "connect() failed: 101". Did something change?
207 2013-01-06 10:40:32 <vazakl> daleks in manhattan
208 2013-01-06 10:40:39 <vazakl> oops wrong win
209 2013-01-06 10:41:41 <sipa> molecular: nothing changed
210 2013-01-06 10:42:02 gladoscc has joined
211 2013-01-06 10:42:54 <gladoscc> Could a light client that does not keep older blockchain (only the last 6 for example) work?
212 2013-01-06 10:43:05 <gladoscc> It would verify transactions when there is a new block, and see if the transaction is there.
213 2013-01-06 10:43:12 <molecular> sipa: strange, what could cause the timeouts? I can ping the hosts it's trying to connect to.
214 2013-01-06 10:43:31 <gladoscc> It will keep a full history of it's own addresses for sending.
215 2013-01-06 10:44:00 <gladoscc> The light client would be useful for running on phones, etc
216 2013-01-06 10:44:08 <gladoscc> while still being decentralized
217 2013-01-06 10:44:40 <molecular> sipa: ok, it seems to be something with my network... tried nmap -p 8333 from other host: open. from here: filtered
218 2013-01-06 10:45:25 RazielZ has joined
219 2013-01-06 10:46:08 <gladoscc> thoughts?
220 2013-01-06 10:47:09 <sipa> gladoscc: perfectly possible
221 2013-01-06 10:48:01 <sipa> it doesn't even need to be a real light node
222 2013-01-06 10:48:27 <sipa> i mean, it is what SPV clients already do
223 2013-01-06 10:49:08 <sipa> but it's also possible to have a fully validating node that doesn't unlimited history
224 2013-01-06 10:49:26 <sipa> +keep
225 2013-01-06 10:50:19 <gladoscc> I think most would prefer that as it doesn't require large space, doesn't require you to download the entire blockchain, while you can verify everything is true
226 2013-01-06 10:50:29 <gladoscc> (obviously except 51% doublespends)
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231 2013-01-06 10:56:08 <cardpuncher> Hi, does "Imports blocks from external blk000??.dat file" mean import all the blocks or import some blocks? I need this information for a translation.
232 2013-01-06 10:56:12 <xHire> hello, I just found a research on double-spending attacks and wanted to ask if you know about it? http://www.syssec.ethz.ch/research/Bitcoin â here is some basic info + patch to bitcoin-qt implementing detection mechanism
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236 2013-01-06 10:58:47 <Dr-G> can anyone help me?
237 2013-01-06 10:58:59 <Dr-G> two transactions are somehow stuck
238 2013-01-06 11:02:55 <gladoscc> Dr-G: txids, how are they stuck, etc?
239 2013-01-06 11:03:47 <Dr-G> I don't know
240 2013-01-06 11:04:13 <Dr-G> I'm restarting my client
241 2013-01-06 11:04:21 <gladoscc> xHire: isn't it already implemented in 0.7.2?
242 2013-01-06 11:04:51 <gladoscc> Dr-G: they are not stuck really
243 2013-01-06 11:04:54 <gladoscc> satoshidice haven't set them out
244 2013-01-06 11:05:00 <Dr-G> they don't show up
245 2013-01-06 11:05:03 <gladoscc> yes
246 2013-01-06 11:05:07 <Dr-G> oh ok
247 2013-01-06 11:05:11 <Dr-G> hm
248 2013-01-06 11:05:20 <gladoscc> just wait a bit
249 2013-01-06 11:05:33 <gladoscc> 15 mins, 3 hours, a day.. nobody knows for sure but you will get your payment :3
250 2013-01-06 11:05:35 <Dr-G> ok, but normaly it shows up instant
251 2013-01-06 11:05:39 <gladoscc> yup
252 2013-01-06 11:05:46 <gladoscc> sometimes it doesn't.
253 2013-01-06 11:05:51 <Dr-G> and I'm freaking out :P
254 2013-01-06 11:06:13 <Dr-G> because It said something about double spending in blockchain
255 2013-01-06 11:06:27 <gladoscc> wait what?
256 2013-01-06 11:07:07 <gladoscc> I see
257 2013-01-06 11:07:13 <gladoscc> It looks like SatoshiDICE sent you coins which were double spent.
258 2013-01-06 11:07:18 ciphermonk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
259 2013-01-06 11:07:20 <Dr-G> something I have to worry about?
260 2013-01-06 11:07:23 <gladoscc> yes
261 2013-01-06 11:07:27 <gladoscc> you probably will not get the coins
262 2013-01-06 11:07:33 <Dr-G> wut
263 2013-01-06 11:07:38 <gladoscc> post it on the forums
264 2013-01-06 11:08:10 <gladoscc> doublespends are where someone, makes two TXes with the same input coins
265 2013-01-06 11:08:20 <tonikt> hi guys. what's this leveldb about and why i cannot build the head anymore?
266 2013-01-06 11:08:47 <tonikt> not even bitcoind
267 2013-01-06 11:08:49 <gladoscc> both of them are unconfirmed so YOUR payment might get in the next block
268 2013-01-06 11:08:58 <gladoscc> tonikt: did you install all the dependicies?
269 2013-01-06 11:09:04 <Dr-G> so just wait a few blocks?
270 2013-01-06 11:09:16 <tonikt> gladoscc, which dependencies?
271 2013-01-06 11:09:24 <tonikt> I have all the old dependencies
272 2013-01-06 11:09:36 <gladoscc> Dr-G: just wait for the next block, and then if you don't get your coins post on the forums.
273 2013-01-06 11:09:45 <tonikt> boost, db-4.30, openssl and upnp
274 2013-01-06 11:10:03 <Dr-G> my client is not the newest version, is that a problem? 0.7 something
275 2013-01-06 11:10:25 <petertodd> leveldb is the new database backend for storing the block chain
276 2013-01-06 11:10:37 <petertodd> specifically the block chain index
277 2013-01-06 11:10:44 <gladoscc> yep, install it and then build
278 2013-01-06 11:10:45 <tonikt> petertodd, does it mena that I can disable barkley now?
279 2013-01-06 11:10:58 <petertodd> no, berkelydb is still used for your wallet
280 2013-01-06 11:10:58 <gladoscc> Dr-G: that's not a problem, althrough you should always be on the latest version
281 2013-01-06 11:11:02 <tonikt> ...and if so: how do i do it?
282 2013-01-06 11:11:10 <tonikt> oh, ok
283 2013-01-06 11:11:36 <gladoscc> tonikt: sudo apt-get install leveldb
284 2013-01-06 11:11:49 <tonikt> anyway, I get some linker errors trying to build bitcoind: ./build/main.o:main.cpp:(.text+0x13a2b): undefined reference to `leveldb::WriteBatch::WriteBatch()'
285 2013-01-06 11:12:06 <gladoscc> that is because you need to install leveldb.
286 2013-01-06 11:12:13 <tonikt> ok - i will try
287 2013-01-06 11:12:19 <Dr-G> thank you gladoscc
288 2013-01-06 11:12:33 <tonikt> thanks for your help so far - I will play with it a bit more
289 2013-01-06 11:12:34 <petertodd> apt-get install libleveldb-dev to be exact
290 2013-01-06 11:12:42 <Dr-G> I would reward you with my fancy internet moneyz, but it's all stuck
291 2013-01-06 11:13:26 <gladoscc> Dr-G: do you have a bitcointalk account?
292 2013-01-06 11:13:30 <Dr-G> yes
293 2013-01-06 11:13:50 <gladoscc> I suggest posting this because it means Satoshidice is still vulnerable to double spending attacks.
294 2013-01-06 11:14:07 <Dr-G> give me your adress, if I get money back I will give you something for your help ;)
295 2013-01-06 11:14:09 <xHire> gladoscc: I've gone through changelog but I didn't find any mention of double-spending attack detection
296 2013-01-06 11:14:45 rdymac has joined
297 2013-01-06 11:14:48 <gladoscc> if you really want to, my address is 1GLadosEkeAsLReqS3yQ51E1R3wVtbJCDF
298 2013-01-06 11:15:04 <gladoscc> thanks :)
299 2013-01-06 11:15:31 <Dr-G> you helped, you get something :P
300 2013-01-06 11:15:45 <gladoscc> xHire: it would be stupid to accept transactions with 0 or few confirms
301 2013-01-06 11:17:10 <sipa> gladoscc: oh, it would still require you to download and process the entire history, just not store it
302 2013-01-06 11:17:55 <gladoscc> sipa: is that because the miner might include TXes with inputs that don't exist?
303 2013-01-06 11:18:08 <sipa> cardpuncher: all blocks in that file
304 2013-01-06 11:18:37 <Dr-G> does satoshi have an irc channel?
305 2013-01-06 11:18:46 <gladoscc> Dr-G: satoshidice? no
306 2013-01-06 11:19:06 <gladoscc> satoshi is the nym of who started bitcoin, btw
307 2013-01-06 11:19:08 <gladoscc> satoshidice is unrelated
308 2013-01-06 11:20:15 <gladoscc> sipa: I was thinking of ways that don't require a client to download the entire blockchain, and don't require trust
309 2013-01-06 11:20:39 <sipa> gladoscc: there is just no way to verify transactions without history
310 2013-01-06 11:21:24 <cardpuncher> Thanks sipa.
311 2013-01-06 11:21:42 <sipa> gladoscc: what you describe is an SPV client, that already exists
312 2013-01-06 11:21:49 <gladoscc> sipa: I think there would
313 2013-01-06 11:21:57 <gladoscc> the current block reward is 25 BTC
314 2013-01-06 11:22:03 <sipa> gladoscc: it needs a limited amount of trust
315 2013-01-06 11:22:17 <gladoscc> if someone includes a fake TX for <25 BTC, it's not going to go in the main blockchain
316 2013-01-06 11:22:22 <sipa> but it works without full history
317 2013-01-06 11:22:50 <sipa> ?
318 2013-01-06 11:22:50 <gladoscc> thus, blocks with less than 25BTC (other than coinbase) wouldn't need to be verified.
319 2013-01-06 11:22:59 <sipa> heh?
320 2013-01-06 11:23:11 <sipa> i don't follow that reasoning
321 2013-01-06 11:23:18 <gladoscc> the attacker is throwing away the block reward for a lesser gain
322 2013-01-06 11:23:32 <sipa> ???
323 2013-01-06 11:24:02 <gladoscc> ok I think we are getting more and more confused
324 2013-01-06 11:24:34 <gladoscc> first of all, is the problem that a block could contain a nonexistant input?
325 2013-01-06 11:24:38 <gladoscc> or are there other problems?
326 2013-01-06 11:24:49 <sipa> or an invalid signature
327 2013-01-06 11:25:02 Trixlert has joined
328 2013-01-06 11:25:09 <sipa> or spend an already spent input
329 2013-01-06 11:25:14 <stealth222> the block might be over the maximum size, could contain invalid signature, could have a number of other problems
330 2013-01-06 11:25:27 <stealth222> might not hash to target
331 2013-01-06 11:25:28 <Trixlert> Hey people
332 2013-01-06 11:25:30 <sipa> or have a transaction with output value > input value
333 2013-01-06 11:25:40 <gladoscc> OK
334 2013-01-06 11:25:47 <sipa> or have a coinbase that claims more fees than valid
335 2013-01-06 11:25:48 <gladoscc> But, full nodes will not accept the block right?
336 2013-01-06 11:25:53 <sipa> yes
337 2013-01-06 11:26:04 <gladoscc> So this means that the miner who creates fake blocks is losing the coinbase
338 2013-01-06 11:26:04 <stealth222> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules#Blocks
339 2013-01-06 11:26:09 <Trixlert> http://btcdevlogs.ww7.be/bitcoin-dev..php
340 2013-01-06 11:26:39 <gladoscc> right?
341 2013-01-06 11:26:39 <Trixlert> That is some good stats.
342 2013-01-06 11:26:47 <gladoscc> forfeit the coinbase
343 2013-01-06 11:26:49 <sipa> but as soon as you rely on full nodes rejecting invalid blocks, you are trusting the presence of full nodes
344 2013-01-06 11:27:08 <sipa> which is reasonable
345 2013-01-06 11:27:17 <sipa> and it is what SPV nodes do
346 2013-01-06 11:27:32 <stealth222> if you connect to multiple full nodes that you're pretty sure are not in collusion with one another, you can get a pretty good sense for things
347 2013-01-06 11:27:36 <sipa> but you can't replace the full nodes themaelf with that
348 2013-01-06 11:27:51 <stealth222> furthermore, a client could download random blocks and test their validity
349 2013-01-06 11:28:02 cardpuncher has left ()
350 2013-01-06 11:28:07 <stealth222> without having to download the entirety of all blocks
351 2013-01-06 11:28:23 <stealth222> and be pretty confident that none of the full nodes are cheating
352 2013-01-06 11:30:46 Ferroh has quit (Quit: *poof*)
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354 2013-01-06 11:33:58 <petertodd> gladoscc: their losing the coinbase in the sense that for the same effort they could have mined a real block
355 2013-01-06 11:34:06 <stealth222> specifically, if a node cheats with probability p, n random queries will find at least one failure with probability (1-p)^n
356 2013-01-06 11:34:07 <sipa> gladoscc: if you're arguing that the network can sustain light nodes: sure, satoshi even described that in the initial paper
357 2013-01-06 11:34:42 <stealth222> err, 1-(1-p)^n
358 2013-01-06 11:34:43 <sipa> gladoscc: and for example multibit and bitcoin wallet for android implement that trust model
359 2013-01-06 11:34:56 <gladoscc> ok, I see
360 2013-01-06 11:35:12 <gladoscc> also, do faster block times matter?
361 2013-01-06 11:36:13 <gladoscc> or is it time based
362 2013-01-06 11:38:51 libcoin has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
363 2013-01-06 11:41:25 * gladoscc pokes
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365 2013-01-06 11:50:31 <sipa> petertodd: leveldb is included in the bitcoin sources...
366 2013-01-06 11:50:45 <petertodd> ha, never mind
367 2013-01-06 11:50:51 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
368 2013-01-06 11:50:58 <petertodd> interesting that the advice fixed that guys problems
369 2013-01-06 11:51:46 <gladoscc> huh
370 2013-01-06 11:51:52 <gladoscc> then leveldb is not properly included
371 2013-01-06 11:52:05 <gladoscc> because last time I tried to make bitcoin I had to get libleveldb-dev
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419 2013-01-06 14:01:40 <TD> sipa: you there?
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465 2013-01-06 16:49:05 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
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481 2013-01-06 17:26:15 <MC1984> Connect 615 transactions: 5638.11ms (9.168ms/tx, 6.400ms/txin)
482 2013-01-06 17:26:15 <MC1984> 2013-01-06 03:51:59 - Verify 881 txins: 5638.11ms (6.400ms/txin)
483 2013-01-06 17:26:15 <MC1984> 2013-01-06 03:51:59 - Connect: 5728.24ms
484 2013-01-06 17:26:15 <MC1984> 2013-01-06 03:51:59 - Flush 1184 transactions: 10.02ms (0.0085ms/tx)
485 2013-01-06 17:26:19 <MC1984> is that good
486 2013-01-06 17:27:35 <MC1984> this is well after block 193k
487 2013-01-06 17:28:50 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
488 2013-01-06 17:28:55 <MC1984> Connect 165 transactions: 110.16ms (0.668ms/tx, 0.287ms/txin)
489 2013-01-06 17:28:55 <MC1984> 2013-01-06 13:17:31 - Verify 384 txins: 110.16ms (0.287ms/txin)
490 2013-01-06 17:28:55 <MC1984> 2013-01-06 13:17:31 - Connect: 210.30ms
491 2013-01-06 17:28:55 <MC1984> 2013-01-06 13:17:31 - Flush 468 transactions: 10.01ms (0.0214ms/tx)
492 2013-01-06 17:29:15 <MC1984> height=215412 work=704918185256847701311 tx=10793393 date=2013-01-06 13:17:46
493 2013-01-06 17:29:37 <MC1984> sipas latest build
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533 2013-01-06 18:44:01 <MC1984> what is libssp-0.dll and why is it not found :(
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544 2013-01-06 19:05:23 <MC1984> sipa your latest build for windows is broken
545 2013-01-06 19:05:30 <MC1984> libssp-0.dll not found
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561 2013-01-06 19:39:02 <MC1984> -reindex is a good way to simulate a sync where the network conenction is not a factor right?
562 2013-01-06 19:39:25 <MC1984> like the same as doing a IBD from a lan node right
563 2013-01-06 19:39:37 <jgarzik> MC1984: not quite
564 2013-01-06 19:39:46 <jgarzik> MC1984: you're not writing block data, so it's significantly cheaper
565 2013-01-06 19:40:07 <jgarzik> MC1984: -loadblock from a RAM device is ideal (though that takes hella lots of RAM)
566 2013-01-06 19:40:18 <jgarzik> -loadblock from SSD etc.
567 2013-01-06 19:41:37 <MC1984> so a good lan or good internet node is the way to go?
568 2013-01-06 19:41:51 <MC1984> apart from ramdisks and shit
569 2013-01-06 19:42:43 <MC1984> -connect= is the arg that forces it to connect to a single node isnt it
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589 2013-01-06 20:08:39 <MC1984> wow lan sync is significantly faster
590 2013-01-06 20:09:03 <MC1984> first 10k blocks less than 30 seconds
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601 2013-01-06 20:18:41 <BlueMatt> TD: ping
602 2013-01-06 20:18:52 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
603 2013-01-06 20:19:04 <TD> pong
604 2013-01-06 20:19:06 <TD> how goes it?
605 2013-01-06 20:19:17 <BlueMatt> sitting in phoenix on layover
606 2013-01-06 20:19:27 <MC1984> is there a new checkpoint at 210k?
607 2013-01-06 20:20:27 <gmaxwell> MC1984: yes.
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610 2013-01-06 20:20:59 <BlueMatt> TD: so im finally getting around to looking through the bloom filter stuff again and updating it (sorry for the delay...holidays and all)
611 2013-01-06 20:21:03 <TD> coo
612 2013-01-06 20:21:05 <TD> cool
613 2013-01-06 20:21:12 <TD> yeah no worries, i didn't get much done either :)
614 2013-01-06 20:21:43 <MC1984> ahh
615 2013-01-06 20:22:02 <MC1984> estimated blocks is stuckon 210000 when i connect to this lan node that is up to date
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620 2013-01-06 20:29:32 <BlueMatt> TD: not sure if i forgot to push it or what, but an old version of the "make ...Store upgrade-friendly" got merged: https://code.google.com/r/bluemattme-bitcoinj/source/detail?r=ad1e1ed1f98b1d7609d19240bf67cdcd4bb6563c&name=bloomfilter
621 2013-01-06 20:29:53 <TD> sorry. must be my mistake.
622 2013-01-06 20:31:45 <TD> given that i pushed it now, could you patch it up?
623 2013-01-06 20:32:02 <BlueMatt> that commit should be the correct amend
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626 2013-01-06 20:34:38 <TD> hearn-macbookpro:src hearn$ msg=hello
627 2013-01-06 20:34:38 <TD> hearn-macbookpro:src hearn$ addr=14YPSNPi6NSXnUxtPAsyJSuw3pv7AU3Cag
628 2013-01-06 20:34:39 <TD> hearn-macbookpro:src hearn$ ./bitcoind verifymessage $addr `./bitcoind signmessage $addr $msg` $msg
629 2013-01-06 20:34:39 <TD> false
630 2013-01-06 20:34:41 <TD> what am i doing wrong here?
631 2013-01-06 20:34:46 <TD> does this functionality actually work?
632 2013-01-06 20:35:50 <gmaxwell> sure' works fine, but I expect your inner invocation is getting an extra \n in it
633 2013-01-06 20:36:57 <gmaxwell> (or the inner one is failing because you're using wallet crypto?)
634 2013-01-06 20:38:08 <TD> it appears the gui won't let me verify my own signatures. nice.
635 2013-01-06 20:38:32 <TD> it's base64 - whitespace isn't meant to make any difference
636 2013-01-06 20:38:37 <TD> i'll double check that anyway
637 2013-01-06 20:39:10 <TD> hearn-macbookpro:src hearn$ ./bitcoind signmessage 14YPSNPi6NSXnUxtPAsyJSuw3pv7AU3Cag hello
638 2013-01-06 20:39:10 <TD> ILYcEhiO3oEekBespX8POM6OTGRQRxBmzavD4ri2DhctEKhP+GG26boJQCUDt/yYFOPs+yvKkA4DWy9857AkrP0=
639 2013-01-06 20:39:10 <TD> hearn-macbookpro:src hearn$ ./bitcoind verifymessage 14YPSNPi6NSXnUxtPAsyJSuw3pv7AU3Cag ILYcEhiO3oEekBespX8POM6OTGRQRxBmzavD4ri2DhctEKhP+GG26boJQCUDt/yYFOPs+yvKkA4DWy9857AkrP0= hello
640 2013-01-06 20:39:11 <TD> false
641 2013-01-06 20:39:14 <TD> i'm not convinced this works ...
642 2013-01-06 20:41:04 <sipa> MC1984: the best pure block verification benchmark is starting from a synced node, stopping, deleting coins/, and restarting; that will rebuild just the coindb and verify
643 2013-01-06 20:42:03 <TD> could somebody send me a signed message i can try?
644 2013-01-06 20:42:06 <MC1984> isnt that a bit artificial?
645 2013-01-06 20:42:17 <MC1984> im syncing normally from a lan node and its pleasingly fast
646 2013-01-06 20:42:18 <sipa> yes
647 2013-01-06 20:43:13 <andytoshi> [username@titanic src]$ ./bitcoind signmessage 1AndrewgVPAnreTyFtdU7nxcSqyMvdTiHm "Heya"
648 2013-01-06 20:43:15 <andytoshi> G4ZVzlpzJls+RLQfQX05soRyhVBtqiBpFG/CUgAmSBQ3oSZMHP0Ab7/O2rvWsK/CLTpS0Rp/AAWkeLYz9HGnrHg=
649 2013-01-06 20:43:33 <andytoshi> I get "true" when i verify that
650 2013-01-06 20:43:41 <andytoshi> but false when i verify yours, TD
651 2013-01-06 20:43:44 <andytoshi> something weird is up
652 2013-01-06 20:43:48 <TD> oh, wait
653 2013-01-06 20:43:51 <TD> i think i see what i did
654 2013-01-06 20:45:13 <TD> never mind. i broke something adding a debug print
655 2013-01-06 20:45:18 MobGod has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
656 2013-01-06 20:54:22 <TD> BlueMatt: which is the new commit with the fixes?
657 2013-01-06 20:54:44 <BlueMatt> TD: the link (ad1e1ed1f98b1d7609d19240bf67cdcd4bb6563c)
658 2013-01-06 20:55:11 <TD> sorry, i meant the one that fixes the bloom filtering bugs you mentioned
659 2013-01-06 20:55:18 <TD> or rather that you mentioned you fixed in a new commit
660 2013-01-06 20:56:15 <BlueMatt> ahh, should just be the head of the bloomfilter branch
661 2013-01-06 20:56:26 <BlueMatt> or the same commit but in the new rebase
662 2013-01-06 20:57:44 <TD> oh ok
663 2013-01-06 20:57:51 <TD> great. i'll try soon
664 2013-01-06 20:58:10 molec has quit (Quit: Leaving)
665 2013-01-06 20:58:46 <BlueMatt> well, i havent gotten that far yet (well, not to pmt/filteredblock yet) but more to come
666 2013-01-06 20:59:38 <TD> alright then, i'll wait - i just want to be able to merge both branches and see it sync correctly. don't care much right now about whether we can also serve filtered blocks
667 2013-01-06 21:00:36 <BlueMatt> yea, that may take until after the second plane...
668 2013-01-06 21:01:10 <TD> ok
669 2013-01-06 21:01:11 <TD> hehe
670 2013-01-06 21:01:15 <BlueMatt> Ill push it when i get it done (ip-over-dns to get free wifi may be slow, but its fast enough to do git and irc)
671 2013-01-06 21:01:32 <TD> there's no hurry
672 2013-01-06 21:02:02 <petertodd> has anyone else ever looked at p2pool's block timestamp validity rules? seems that it has something called "timestamp_cutoff" which I think restricts timestamps to be accurate to within an hour, just wondering if there is somethign subtle I'm missing
673 2013-01-06 21:02:52 Diapolo has joined
674 2013-01-06 21:03:51 <gmaxwell> bitcoind verifymessage 1GMaxweLLbo8mdXvnnC19Wt2wigiYUKgEB HK0723fozAJTOIEHzTpToSzgzUh3VuXRYNOpnOcQtUcdvN+6a5T9Mntl5pvo/X8ZOCietUXeObQaLg5Ge0t8PkM= hello
675 2013-01-06 21:03:54 <gmaxwell> true
676 2013-01-06 21:04:13 <TD> yeah, sorry, i discovered i was calling ss.GetHash() twice due to an added debug
677 2013-01-06 21:04:20 * TD is nearly there with bitcoinj sign/verifymessage
678 2013-01-06 21:04:27 <MC1984> what blockheight did the SD bullshit start?
679 2013-01-06 21:04:31 <MC1984> 190 or so right
680 2013-01-06 21:05:10 <TD> 180k or so i think
681 2013-01-06 21:06:14 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
682 2013-01-06 21:07:00 <MC1984> im at 190 and still screaming along at 10 ish blocks/second
683 2013-01-06 21:07:21 <MC1984> impressive
684 2013-01-06 21:07:34 tonikt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
685 2013-01-06 21:07:47 <Diapolo> MC1984: did you investigate further because of that splash screen stuff?
686 2013-01-06 21:08:35 <MC1984> ill check that out later on my other machines
687 2013-01-06 21:12:15 larsig has quit ()
688 2013-01-06 21:15:20 libcoin has joined
689 2013-01-06 21:18:35 larsig has joined
690 2013-01-06 21:28:15 davout has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
691 2013-01-06 21:28:16 <grau> sipa: does the newest bitcoind do full verification of the chain from block 0 or from checkpoint ? if checkpoint what is the highest in 0.8 ?
692 2013-01-06 21:29:49 one_zero has joined
693 2013-01-06 21:30:03 <grau> TD: Mike?
694 2013-01-06 21:30:09 <TD> hello
695 2013-01-06 21:30:26 <TD> it does signature checking after the latest checkpoint
696 2013-01-06 21:30:39 <Diapolo> grau: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/checkpoints.cpp
697 2013-01-06 21:30:47 <grau> thanks
698 2013-01-06 21:30:55 <grau> I will do the same
699 2013-01-06 21:30:55 <TD> i think the latest checkpoint is 210,000
700 2013-01-06 21:32:21 <grau> I recently joined irc and scanned previous log for bitsofproof. I saw you mentioning it would have bitcoinj bits in it. The only few lines I am aware are in calculation of the merkle root. Is this what you mean? Do yu miss attribution for that ?
701 2013-01-06 21:33:32 <TD> yeah that's what i was referring to. no, don't worry about it. i wondered if there might be more, but i indeed never saw any when reading the code.
702 2013-01-06 21:36:09 <grau> That was the only piece I think where I was lazy and too obvious to do it any differently. Thanks a lot.
703 2013-01-06 21:36:35 <TD> yeah, no problems.
704 2013-01-06 21:40:38 <grau> I now have jbehave embedded. Two instances of bitsofproof networking instantiate and you can drive with a plain text story file what should be feeded to one to the other.
705 2013-01-06 21:41:06 <grau> The story can also let api calls executed and check results from that plain text.
706 2013-01-06 21:41:16 <grau> I will convert the block chain tests into this
707 2013-01-06 21:41:35 <sipa> grau: from latest checkpoint, which is 210000
708 2013-01-06 21:43:26 <grau> TD: It would be great if I could easily create a dump of what the bitcoinj blocktester feeds
709 2013-01-06 21:44:28 <sipa> grau: i think it's more useful if you could try to get bitcoinj blocktester test your code
710 2013-01-06 21:44:41 <TD> yes, unfortunately i don't think i ever fully merged that. i don't recall why. maybe BlueMatt knows
711 2013-01-06 21:44:47 <TD> it's in one of his branches
712 2013-01-06 21:44:57 <TD> it shouldn't be too hard to link them together seeing as they're both java apps
713 2013-01-06 21:44:59 <sipa> grau: otherwise you'll need to maintain a mirror of them in your system anyway
714 2013-01-06 21:45:26 <grau> sipa: I plan to do that but not by integrating the code, but integrating the stories it runs
715 2013-01-06 21:45:52 <sipa> there's not code to integrate, just a patch to make your node run the alternative chain. afaik?
716 2013-01-06 21:46:13 <sipa> perhaps it uses RPC calls though... unsure
717 2013-01-06 21:46:18 <TD> i think it talks p2p
718 2013-01-06 21:46:26 <sipa> yes, it talks p2p
719 2013-01-06 21:46:35 <sipa> but i'm not sure whether it only talks p2p
720 2013-01-06 21:46:41 <TD> i think it only talks p2p
721 2013-01-06 21:46:45 <grau> sipa: check this https://github.com/bitsofproof/supernode/blob/master/src/test/resources/connect.story
722 2013-01-06 21:46:59 <grau> this is the first story I wrote.
723 2013-01-06 21:47:17 * TD hasn't seen jbehave before
724 2013-01-06 21:47:52 <TD> it's a way to write unit tests in english?
725 2013-01-06 21:47:54 <grau> It looks obvious, it drives a generic driver that executes the steps here https://github.com/bitsofproof/supernode/blob/master/src/test/java/com/bitsofproof/supernode/test/StoriesRunner.java
726 2013-01-06 21:48:00 <upb> its fucking AGILE
727 2013-01-06 21:48:24 <grau> Yes that it!
728 2013-01-06 21:48:28 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
729 2013-01-06 21:48:29 <sipa> grau: i'm sure things like that are useful for tests, but if i understand you correctly, you plan to translate the bitcoinj nodetester scenarios to that system?
730 2013-01-06 21:48:52 <TD> that could be a lot of work
731 2013-01-06 21:49:08 <grau> sipa: this is the next level after unit tests its test of behaviour
732 2013-01-06 21:49:26 <grau> I let the blocktester generate messages, record them and feed them
733 2013-01-06 21:49:27 <gmaxwell> grau: instead of converting itâ why not just run it against your software. Its an external program and speaks over the network. When you convert the code you run the risk of any lurking misunderstanding or typo causing a non-duplication of the tests.
734 2013-01-06 21:49:30 <sipa> grau: if that's the case, i think it is much more useful to make your system be testable by the bitcoinj directly, as it doesn't require you to maintain any parallel set of the tests
735 2013-01-06 21:49:36 <grau> while I use the API to check that it does what it should
736 2013-01-06 21:49:53 Diapolo has left ()
737 2013-01-06 21:50:02 <grau> I do not want testing depending on an other tool
738 2013-01-06 21:50:04 <sipa> grau: that can be done in addition to any tests you write yourself in your own system, of course
739 2013-01-06 21:50:12 <grau> I want testing repeatable at every build
740 2013-01-06 21:50:13 <sipa> why not?
741 2013-01-06 21:50:26 <upb> Scenario: Since genesis can not be spent this balance is 0
742 2013-01-06 21:50:35 <upb> im pretty sure thats not english
743 2013-01-06 21:50:41 <grau> I instantiate two bitsofproof on the fly from maven and jbehave
744 2013-01-06 21:50:41 <sipa> the only way to test whether your P2P-visible interaction works, is by something that connects to P2P...
745 2013-01-06 21:51:13 <grau> sipa: Yes I connect two bitsofproofs
746 2013-01-06 21:51:29 <sipa> it still requires you to maintain your own set of tests
747 2013-01-06 21:51:33 <grau> sipa: it already works
748 2013-01-06 21:51:44 <TD> well
749 2013-01-06 21:51:51 <TD> the point of matts testing tool is it compares two implementations
750 2013-01-06 21:51:57 <TD> and walks them through blocks side by side
751 2013-01-06 21:51:59 <sipa> and if there is a bug in bitsofproof, it may consider the other node functional, even if they are both doing it wrong
752 2013-01-06 21:52:17 <TD> so you can't really re-implement it using something that's bitsofproof specific. that's just not how the tool works
753 2013-01-06 21:52:21 <gmaxwell> Yes, you ought to have your own tetsâ but this doesn't replace the value of having an external test that can be run on many implementations, and which was created by someone else so it doesn't reaffirm mitaken assumptions.
754 2013-01-06 21:52:47 <grau> It is an external test, since I let the blocktester create the test cases
755 2013-01-06 21:52:58 <grau> I just save them into story files so I can reuse them
756 2013-01-06 21:53:04 <grau> without running that
757 2013-01-06 21:53:35 <sipa> how can you know what bitcoinj is verifying in your output?
758 2013-01-06 21:53:35 <grau> The goal is to validate behaviour for network messages
759 2013-01-06 21:53:58 <sipa> you can save what it is sending you, but you can't reverse engineer automatically what tests it applies to your responses
760 2013-01-06 21:54:21 * gmaxwell muses about cobol never seeming to die
761 2013-01-06 21:54:48 freewil has joined
762 2013-01-06 21:54:52 <grau> The story describes what inputs are and what checks are. Just like you created json for scripts I do that for higher level of network interaction
763 2013-01-06 21:55:55 <grau> Hey guys, you deal with hight tech. How can you be so conservative :)))
764 2013-01-06 21:56:09 <upb> yes, we know what a story is
765 2013-01-06 21:56:29 <upb> seems youre have a hard case of NIH syndrom
766 2013-01-06 21:56:31 <sipa> so how will you 1) make sure your story files remain up-to-date with what bitcoinj tester verifies 2) make sure you catch errors in your tester node itself?
767 2013-01-06 21:56:41 <sipa> grau: i love your story-based testing
768 2013-01-06 21:56:49 <gmaxwell> grau: In any case, this does not replace the simple effort of making bluematt's tester run against your code for the purpose of gaining confidence that your code is correct. It just adds a level of uncertanty, and additional work because now when tests are added to matt's implementation neutral test someone has to remember to remind you to add the test to your tool.
769 2013-01-06 21:57:00 <sipa> grau: but it's not the same thing as testing with a standard tool that's already proven to be able to catch errors in implementations
770 2013-01-06 21:57:11 <gmaxwell> ha. What sipa said.
771 2013-01-06 21:58:18 <sipa> grau: from my point of view, i consider bitsofproof completely untrusted (not that i don't trust you, but i don't know it enough to make any judgement, so my conservative assumption is that is faulty) - if you're saying that it validates itself perfectly, i know nothing
772 2013-01-06 21:58:25 <grau> I will do the level of test with it that is possible on network and API level. Deeper than that is bitcoinj (implementation) specific
773 2013-01-06 21:59:02 <grau> BTW. What is NIH ?
774 2013-01-06 21:59:08 <gmaxwell> grau: there is substantial research that english like languages lead to devistating software bugs. English is not adequate for programming, so what you're really using is specialized english which is too easy to misread. But I really don't mind what tools you use, perhaps it's absolutely great... but there should be implementation generic network tests. (and implementation-specific unit tests too!)
775 2013-01-06 21:59:08 <sipa> Not Invented Here
776 2013-01-06 21:59:32 <sipa> and i don't see what the difficulty is; i think you need to change a few lines only to implement the alternative chain used by bitcoinj tester, and you're *done*
777 2013-01-06 22:00:20 <grau> I think, I could not tell what I do. Let me finish and then revisit.
778 2013-01-06 22:01:51 <grau> gmaxwell: You really took this from the wrong angle. This is nothing more than unit tests taken to a higher level with a convinient tool.
779 2013-01-06 22:02:02 <TD> yeah
780 2013-01-06 22:02:08 <TD> matts testing tool isn't really a unit test
781 2013-01-06 22:02:16 <TD> it's something different. maybe that's where the confusion/disagreement stems from
782 2013-01-06 22:02:19 WolfAlex_ has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
783 2013-01-06 22:02:36 WolfAlex has joined
784 2013-01-06 22:02:37 <sipa> grau: and that's a great idea - you need unit tests, and this seems a very nice way to do it
785 2013-01-06 22:02:40 <grau> Yes, his testing describes a story with java code. I try to do the same cleaner
786 2013-01-06 22:03:07 <grau> sipa: I do have unit tests. Actually covering jsons form bitcoind.
787 2013-01-06 22:03:24 <sipa> grau: and even if you completely translate everything the bitcoinj tester does, it is not the same thing as a using it as an external validator
788 2013-01-06 22:03:26 <grau> I do this because I am done with unit tests
789 2013-01-06 22:03:40 <gmaxwell> 13:45 < grau> gmaxwell: You really took this from the wrong angle. This is nothing more than unit tests taken to a higher level with a convinient tool.
790 2013-01-06 22:03:57 <gmaxwell> ^ but that does not replace running an implementation neutral system test.
791 2013-01-06 22:04:00 <TD> grawell, his tool actually compares two different implementations to ensure they proceed in lockstep. yes, you can use it as a source of unit tests, but it's actually meant as a kind of blockchan-diff tool
792 2013-01-06 22:05:12 <gmaxwell> And my comment on stories was an aside, â I made it so you'd understand my cobol commentâ but its not relevant to here... I'll let you discover the the benefits of your approach on your own. Sorry for mentioning it.
793 2013-01-06 22:05:16 <grau> What I write is the ultimate neutral system tests. Since I extract the expected behaviour into s plain text and validate against.
794 2013-01-06 22:05:49 <sipa> it is not system neutral as it requires the system being tested to implement the tester itself!
795 2013-01-06 22:06:00 agricocb has joined
796 2013-01-06 22:06:19 <gmaxwell> ^ which is exactly what we do not want, becuase the implementor will likely repeat his misunderstandings in the test.
797 2013-01-06 22:06:19 <grau> Let me explain the test setup in more detail:
798 2013-01-06 22:07:19 <grau> There is one full bitsofproof node using an in memory database. It seeks to connect to localhost:port x
799 2013-01-06 22:08:01 <grau> There is an other bitsofproof network module instanciated, no database, no logic just to provide socket for the first.
800 2013-01-06 22:08:31 <sipa> ok, now assume there is a bug in bitsofproof, which is active in both the tester node and the node being tested
801 2013-01-06 22:08:37 <grau> The second bitsofproof reads the story file to challange the first and used the RMI API of the first to validate it processes correctly.
802 2013-01-06 22:08:43 <sipa> some encoding/serialization bug, for example
803 2013-01-06 22:08:47 <grau> What correct is is again written in the story file.
804 2013-01-06 22:08:48 <sipa> it will not detect any error
805 2013-01-06 22:09:13 <grau> That low level bugs should be covered by unit tests.
806 2013-01-06 22:09:21 <sipa> should be
807 2013-01-06 22:09:40 <gmaxwell> Maybe! but maybe it isn't. You wrote your own unit tests. If the bug resulted from a misunderstanding you had the test would be wrong too.
808 2013-01-06 22:09:54 johzi has joined
809 2013-01-06 22:10:03 <sipa> but why not prove it, by showing that your system passes a standard test maintained by other people, which already is able to validate other node implementations?
810 2013-01-06 22:10:25 <sipa> eventually, your node needs to be able to interact with those other implementation anyway
811 2013-01-06 22:10:27 <grau> but that is what I do !
812 2013-01-06 22:10:52 <gmaxwell> I'm very concerned that you are unwilling to take a few minutes effort to run a preexisting implementation neutral external testing harness but willing to spend hours lossily reimplementing them specific to your system.
813 2013-01-06 22:10:52 <grau> I let that blockchaintester run, but record what it does
814 2013-01-06 22:10:56 <sipa> as long as all code running is bitsofproof, it's not a system-neutral validation
815 2013-01-06 22:11:12 <grau> I am very concerned that you are unwilling to listen
816 2013-01-06 22:11:26 <grau> I do buildsophisticated software for living
817 2013-01-06 22:11:27 <gmaxwell> grau: fine, if the chaintester passes your implementation then that is what I'd want. If you'd like to write additional tests, then great.
818 2013-01-06 22:12:00 <gmaxwell> grau: It sure doesn't sound like you do.
819 2013-01-06 22:12:35 <grau> I am honestly shocked by your resistance to try anything not invented here. Even though it is industry standard in environments that handle more money you imagimne
820 2013-01-06 22:12:43 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
821 2013-01-06 22:12:46 <gmaxwell> grau: nor does the prior quality of your implementation and the bludgeoning I had to perform to get you to fix it support that.
822 2013-01-06 22:12:49 <sipa> grau: you expect us to trust you that you reimplement/replay matt's tests correctly
823 2013-01-06 22:13:20 <sipa> grau: i have no doubt you're a great programmer, and took your job very seriously when implementing bitcoin
824 2013-01-06 22:13:34 <gmaxwell> grau: I sure didn't invent matt's testâ they were part of his bitcoinj work which I had nothing to do with beyond sending him applause. You're making a logical fallcy of believing that I invented anything you didn't invent.
825 2013-01-06 22:14:18 <sipa> grau: but everyone makes mistakes (myself included, for sure), and if you misunderstood anything about bitcoin, it will likely be present in both your system and your unit tests
826 2013-01-06 22:14:29 <MC1984> if i change around wallet.dat files on a bitcoin installation, i also get the libssp-0.dll error
827 2013-01-06 22:14:41 root2_ has joined
828 2013-01-06 22:14:47 <MC1984> an over the op reinstall from the installed fixes it
829 2013-01-06 22:14:55 <MC1984> this is with at least the last two sipa builds
830 2013-01-06 22:15:08 <gmaxwell> MC1984: you need that dll because the stack protector stuff got enabled for windows.
831 2013-01-06 22:15:12 <sipa> grau: and perhaps your story-based testing done by a bitsofproof node can become yet another system-neutral testing application for other systems
832 2013-01-06 22:15:35 <sipa> grau: that'd be great actually, if it's as flexible as you say, and it gets a great archive of scenarios to test
833 2013-01-06 22:15:37 <MC1984> gmaxwell i dont know what that means, im just saying what i see
834 2013-01-06 22:15:44 <grau> The problem is you claim to know the right way of testing. What I saw until now in all bitcoin projects does not support that hypothesis well. Yes, I have less tests at the moment but you are a few years ahead.
835 2013-01-06 22:16:01 <MC1984> i just swapped around a wallet.dat and got the error again and had to reinstall from the installer
836 2013-01-06 22:16:03 <sipa> grau: but that still isn't the same as testing whether your system interacts correctly with another system
837 2013-01-06 22:16:09 <sipa> grau: i will not dispute that
838 2013-01-06 22:16:29 <sipa> bitcoind is lacking unit tests, and improvement is certainly needed
839 2013-01-06 22:16:35 <gmaxwell> grau: Having tests isn't sufficient. The behavior of the bitcoin network is what matters, not the tests. The reference software (of the right versions at least) is _automatically correct_ no matter what the tests say.
840 2013-01-06 22:17:23 <sipa> grau: but you can't compare a unit tests to an interaction test with an independently-written implementation of the same rules
841 2013-01-06 22:17:42 <TD> mm, yes, unfortunately satoshi left us with a system which had no unit tests at all, and for which any deviation from its behavior can cause critical damage. which is why he wasn't a fan of the idea of reimplementations. unfortunately it also made evolving the code rather hard.
842 2013-01-06 22:17:45 <gmaxwell> This is, I agree, an unusual situation in terms of software testingâ but it's also not unique to bitcoin. This kind of thing can arise with any distributed system.
843 2013-01-06 22:17:51 <TD> we've been fixing that issue ever since
844 2013-01-06 22:17:53 <MC1984> also it has happened on two different xp machines
845 2013-01-06 22:18:03 <sipa> MC1984: yes, it seems you need that ddl
846 2013-01-06 22:18:05 <sipa> dll
847 2013-01-06 22:18:18 <gmaxwell> TD: even if he had great unit testsâ the implementation still wins. :) which is somewhat unusual for software. :P
848 2013-01-06 22:18:33 <TD> yeah
849 2013-01-06 22:18:42 <TD> but at least you could refactor with more confidence
850 2013-01-06 22:18:43 <MC1984> well yes, i suppose a bitcoin reinstall puts it back or something?
851 2013-01-06 22:18:44 root2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
852 2013-01-06 22:18:48 twixed has joined
853 2013-01-06 22:18:54 <sipa> MC1984: no build of bitcoin ever required that dll
854 2013-01-06 22:18:57 <gmaxwell> MC1984: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/libssp-0.dll is probably what you need.
855 2013-01-06 22:18:58 <sipa> MC1984: my latest build do
856 2013-01-06 22:19:06 zooko has joined
857 2013-01-06 22:19:32 <MC1984> is it one of those ddls i dump into the windows sys folder?
858 2013-01-06 22:19:35 WolfAlex has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
859 2013-01-06 22:19:37 <TD> it should be included
860 2013-01-06 22:19:41 <TD> i guess
861 2013-01-06 22:19:51 <grau> Do not take that for granted. Every unit test we write and every nehaviour test we write cements what bitcoind will have to obey in the next release.
862 2013-01-06 22:19:52 <sipa> it should be linked statically, but apparently it isn't
863 2013-01-06 22:20:00 <MC1984> i wonder why i dont already have it
864 2013-01-06 22:20:05 <sipa> grau: ?
865 2013-01-06 22:20:11 <gmaxwell> grau: and a reimplementation of a testâ even a careful oneâ is not the same as a test itself, unless there is some mechenism to show them to be mathmatically identical.
866 2013-01-06 22:20:18 <grau> At some points the tests will force compliance and not a particular implementation, and that is I am after.
867 2013-01-06 22:20:34 <grau> This is why I want tests self contained and plain text
868 2013-01-06 22:20:45 <gmaxwell> grau: The tests MAY NOT disagree with the exiting implementation or the test MUST be changed. Thats my pointâ more tests are fantastic but they are not normative and can not be normative.
869 2013-01-06 22:21:06 WolfAlex has joined
870 2013-01-06 22:21:27 <grau> I do not want to re-implement tests, only if they are not available in a self-contained format.
871 2013-01-06 22:21:45 <gmaxwell> please stop saying plain text. Your plain text tests are not plain text. They are in a specialzied dialect of english where words care more specific meanings than they do in english. An english reader who reads the test without a solid understanding of the specialized meaning may misunderstand them.
872 2013-01-06 22:22:01 <grau> An other imlementation s too wide.
873 2013-01-06 22:22:09 <grau> Json is also plain text.
874 2013-01-06 22:22:13 <grau> for me
875 2013-01-06 22:22:26 <sipa> well an x86 binary encoded in base64 is also plain test?
876 2013-01-06 22:22:55 <sipa> grau: good, imagine soon someone else starts a new bitcoin node implementation
877 2013-01-06 22:23:05 root2_ is now known as root2
878 2013-01-06 22:23:13 <sipa> grau: he is as smart as you, and spends as much effort writing unit tests, and verifying them
879 2013-01-06 22:23:32 <sipa> he actually comes up with a very similar system, and unfortunately he never heard about you and your code
880 2013-01-06 22:24:16 <sipa> however he doesn't understand one tiny subtle detail about bitcoin, and his unit tests fail to express this
881 2013-01-06 22:24:42 <sipa> wouldn't it be great if those two systems could test eachother, rather than just validating themself?
882 2013-01-06 22:24:54 <sipa> we are together working on software that needs to interact
883 2013-01-06 22:24:56 <grau> What I ask him to do is what I also do now. Take tests of other systems as captured in self contained manner like the json tests.
884 2013-01-06 22:25:19 * gmaxwell hangs head
885 2013-01-06 22:25:47 <sipa> what if he makes a mistake translating the existing tests to his framework?
886 2013-01-06 22:25:50 <grau> gmaxwell: tests become normative
887 2013-01-06 22:25:53 <gmaxwell> grau: his misunderstanding of the systemâ or bugs in his codeâ may cause him translation of the other tests into actual behavior to be incorrect.
888 2013-01-06 22:26:55 <gmaxwell> grau: the tests are not normative unless they are the implementation people run. In fact, I can argue that we do have a fully normative testâ the reference software. You just need a harness to send conditions through both to verify that you match the fully normative 'test'.
889 2013-01-06 22:27:11 <grau> gmaxwell: it is not black or white
890 2013-01-06 22:27:15 <upb> what is this 'self contained' you keep blabbing about?
891 2013-01-06 22:27:42 <grau> we started with the implementation being the definition since there were no tests at all
892 2013-01-06 22:27:51 <gmaxwell> grau: in a distributed system like bitcoin the behaivor of your peers is what matters for normative behavior. Thats the only test that can really matter. If there is 99% of the network and it's "wrong" ... it's still right.
893 2013-01-06 22:27:57 <upb> the tests you showed are not self contained in anyway, there is a struture to those test 'sentences' and parts of those sentences are implemented in your java tester
894 2013-01-06 22:28:10 <sipa> and nothing will change that - we can add rules, rules which hopefully will be formally defined using tests
895 2013-01-06 22:28:20 <sipa> but nothing can break the rules of the original implementation
896 2013-01-06 22:28:26 <grau> then unit tests were added and I am sure now sipa does not release a code if they do not pass the tests
897 2013-01-06 22:28:35 <gmaxwell> The primary correctness criteria for bitcoin â above all other considerationsâ is consistency.
898 2013-01-06 22:28:40 <grau> therefore the tests became normative (but not sufficient)
899 2013-01-06 22:29:07 <grau> the journey is to raise the bar
900 2013-01-06 22:29:07 <gmaxwell> (because or a technical level bitcoin is a distributed consensus systemâ consistency is its purpose and reason for existing)
901 2013-01-06 22:29:36 <sipa> grau: my question is how you show that your unit tests are correct, except by showing they are at least observably identical to running connected to a reference implementation
902 2013-01-06 22:29:53 <gmaxwell> grau: say that a race condition makes the implementation sometimes fail a test but we release anyways because we don't know this. Then if most people are running that code.. the test is not normative, the behavior is.
903 2013-01-06 22:30:10 <sipa> if everyone has their own unit tests they consider normative, we are not building a single distributed system - we are building several
904 2013-01-06 22:30:41 <grau> I want to share the tests. That is why I separate them from implementation.
905 2013-01-06 22:30:53 <sipa> grau: *great*
906 2013-01-06 22:31:18 <gmaxwell> I couldn't be happier if you both showed your implementation passed bluematt's tester and created a similar tester of your own that bitcoinj and the reference implementation also pass.
907 2013-01-06 22:31:18 <grau> I make them data as far as possible instead of code.
908 2013-01-06 22:31:21 <sipa> that means your unit tests can hopefully at some point easily be used to test other implementation
909 2013-01-06 22:31:33 <sipa> which would be great
910 2013-01-06 22:31:42 <grau> YES
911 2013-01-06 22:31:44 <gmaxwell> (well, I could be happier: I'd be happier if you created your own without looking inside bluematt's and it was also as comprehensive)
912 2013-01-06 22:32:24 <sipa> but it is not, and never will be, normative for anyone
913 2013-01-06 22:32:39 <sipa> it's a compliance test to a part of the system you modeled in tests
914 2013-01-06 22:32:49 <gmaxwell> It can't be normative simply because no one can run it on the network and depend on it.
915 2013-01-06 22:32:57 <grau> we are raising the bar with every test that is portable to ALL implementations
916 2013-01-06 22:33:02 johzi has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
917 2013-01-06 22:33:02 <sipa> grau: agree
918 2013-01-06 22:33:22 <sipa> grau: so why don't you verify your code against both your own tests, and already existing tests, which we know are good?
919 2013-01-06 22:33:34 swulf--1 has joined
920 2013-01-06 22:33:38 <grau> See, and all I do with that jbehave is to create portable easy to repeat tests of a higher level than unit
921 2013-01-06 22:34:06 <grau> I do sipa
922 2013-01-06 22:34:09 <gmaxwell> A way of looking at it is that in a distributed consensus system only an implementation can be normativeâ it its own testsâ and a "test" is really a harness that allows you to convert any implementation into a test of another implementation by challenging them with behavior you can compare.
923 2013-01-06 22:34:16 <grau> I did verify against bitcoind unit tests
924 2013-01-06 22:34:32 <sipa> grau: but didn't run it connected to that bitcoinj tester
925 2013-01-06 22:34:33 <gmaxwell> s/which we know are good/which we have time and evidence to believe are good but cannot know/ :P
926 2013-01-06 22:34:45 <grau> Not yet
927 2013-01-06 22:34:59 <sipa> if you do that, i have nothing to complain about anymore
928 2013-01-06 22:35:10 <sipa> but it's not the same as trying to capture its behaviour in your own tests
929 2013-01-06 22:35:57 <gmaxwell> grau: it would be more beneficial if you create your test without looking too much inside bluematt's at firstâ maybe you will imagine some tests he forgot. You will test with his too so there is no risk of totally forgetting them. Then later pull in replications of his tests.
930 2013-01-06 22:36:17 swulf-- has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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932 2013-01-06 22:38:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: we should probably merge the pulltester patch behind a hidden switch.
933 2013-01-06 22:38:45 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'd rather spend time on mining a chain for pulltester so it doesn't need a patch :)
934 2013-01-06 22:39:15 <sipa> that makes it more useful for other implementations as well
935 2013-01-06 22:39:18 <gmaxwell> yea, I'm willing to do thatâ but I suspect there are still a bunch of missing tests.
936 2013-01-06 22:41:51 <MC1984> welp its slowed down significantly just after 210k
937 2013-01-06 22:42:05 <MC1984> also the sync bar on the bottom is gone even though its still syncing
938 2013-01-06 22:42:34 <gmaxwell> I know when I reviewed it I found a (two?) missing ones, so I might guess that there are a dozen more based on how well I feel I know the more obscure rules and how carefully I checked.
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941 2013-01-06 22:44:11 <gmaxwell> I wonder of purecoin had been finished if here would be some crazy machine transformation of the code that could extract a testharness from the implementation.
942 2013-01-06 22:44:22 <grau> MC1984 : whats the speed now ?
943 2013-01-06 22:45:00 <grau> MC1984: please pick a block with a few hundred tx
944 2013-01-06 22:45:26 <grau> and tell me what timing is for input resolution, tx validation and storade
945 2013-01-06 22:45:31 <grau> I mean storage.
946 2013-01-06 22:45:41 <gmaxwell> grau: mc1984 is on a really slow atom, so his results probably don't reflect anything you've tested with.
947 2013-01-06 22:45:43 <MC1984> it was ~10 blocks per second just before 210k and probably avg less than 1 per seconds right after 210k
948 2013-01-06 22:45:55 <MC1984> when the full verify kicked in
949 2013-01-06 22:46:02 <grau> I am sure bitsofproof is slower, just curious how much
950 2013-01-06 22:46:12 <MC1984> gmaxwell no this is on my athlon 2.2ghz box
951 2013-01-06 22:46:15 <grau> yes after 210k please
952 2013-01-06 22:46:39 <MC1984> 1gb rams and a 7200rpm HDD or other
953 2013-01-06 22:46:54 <sipa> grau: on a hexacore machine, with parallel signature checking and hal's optimized ecdsa verification, i've seen close to 0.8ms/txin for validation
954 2013-01-06 22:46:58 <MC1984> its an athlon xp mind, the one before the athlon 64
955 2013-01-06 22:47:11 <MC1984> still i dont consider it slow
956 2013-01-06 22:47:41 <sipa> grau: wait, 0.08
957 2013-01-06 22:48:04 <sipa> that's 0.08ms/txin average clock time (so in practice close to 0.48ms cpu time per txin)
958 2013-01-06 22:49:08 <MC1984> Connect 194 transactions: 984.38ms (5.074ms/tx, 2.912ms/txin)
959 2013-01-06 22:49:08 <MC1984> 2013-01-06 22:31:00 - Verify 338 txins: 984.38ms (2.912ms/txin)
960 2013-01-06 22:49:08 <MC1984> 2013-01-06 22:31:00 - Connect: 1000.00ms
961 2013-01-06 22:49:08 <MC1984> 2013-01-06 22:31:00 - Flush 487 transactions: 0.00ms (0.0000ms/tx)
962 2013-01-06 22:49:08 <MC1984> 2013-01-06 22:31:00 SetBestChain: new best=00000000000001591e48ca94c53c0e38bf034ca12c1a4a4b60b5e7239142b896 height=210433
963 2013-01-06 22:49:14 <MC1984> hows that?
964 2013-01-06 22:49:29 <grau> Thanks, let me compare
965 2013-01-06 22:50:39 <sipa> ^ that's one a single-threaded system i suppose?
966 2013-01-06 22:50:47 <MC1984> athlon xbp barton 2.2ghz
967 2013-01-06 22:51:02 <sipa> signature checks are done inline during connection, so the connect and verify numbers are the same
968 2013-01-06 22:52:15 <grau> how many cores does that have?
969 2013-01-06 22:52:49 <gmaxwell> Thats a single core system.
970 2013-01-06 22:53:02 <gmaxwell> Which I assume is partially why it's so slow.
971 2013-01-06 22:53:56 <MC1984> jesus christ this CPU is ten years old
972 2013-01-06 22:54:26 <MC1984> athlon 54 came out in 2003
973 2013-01-06 22:54:29 <MC1984> 64
974 2013-01-06 22:56:25 <gmaxwell> I'm happy that you have old stuff. :P less things for me to keep. :P
975 2013-01-06 22:57:21 <MC1984> im poor
976 2013-01-06 22:57:40 <MC1984> well not that poor, im just too lazy to research and buy new stuff
977 2013-01-06 22:58:28 <MC1984> i do have acces to an I5 dual core so ill be trying that next
978 2013-01-06 22:59:54 <gmaxwell> the longer you wait the faster it gets.
979 2013-01-06 23:01:03 <MC1984> yeah
980 2013-01-06 23:01:16 <MC1984> ive wanted a new laptop for over two years
981 2013-01-06 23:01:43 <MC1984> theres a thing on the wiki about how the computer market proves bitcoin isnt doomed to a deflationary spiral
982 2013-01-06 23:01:48 <MC1984> im proof that it is lol
983 2013-01-06 23:02:52 <gmaxwell> haha. There is a cute paper showing that under a fixed budget you can complete some big computing tasks earlier by going to the beach for a year and then buying your supercomputer.
984 2013-01-06 23:02:53 <grau> Restarted from 210k to get to the same block. I run on a 4 core Xeon at 2GHz, with bare metal virtualization
985 2013-01-06 23:03:49 Joric has joined
986 2013-01-06 23:03:50 <MC1984> lol i cant beleive they got funding for that
987 2013-01-06 23:04:15 <gmaxwell> http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9912202.pdf
988 2013-01-06 23:04:54 <MC1984> shit like that makes me think about how close to a singularity we might be
989 2013-01-06 23:05:08 <sipa> which height is it?
990 2013-01-06 23:05:28 <MC1984> The Effects of MooreÂs Law and Slacking 1 on Large
991 2013-01-06 23:05:28 <MC1984> Computations - oh lawd dat title
992 2013-01-06 23:05:34 <sipa> 210433, it seems
993 2013-01-06 23:06:35 mykhal has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
994 2013-01-06 23:06:47 <gmaxwell> MC1984: the singularity will be prevented by slacking, of course. as soon as you predict the massive speed increases you should go to the beach, so tech will never get faster. :P
995 2013-01-06 23:07:45 <MC1984> if the singularity means we all chill out at the beach forever thats fine by me
996 2013-01-06 23:08:25 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
997 2013-01-06 23:08:28 <MC1984> more likely there wont be any beaches left because it will all be turned into chips, perhaps by our robot overlords against our will
998 2013-01-06 23:09:20 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
999 2013-01-06 23:11:07 <MC1984> chart y axis "optimal slackage"
1000 2013-01-06 23:12:06 ThomasV has joined
1001 2013-01-06 23:12:21 <sipa> grau: reindexing to try the same on my system (quad-core i7 laptop)
1002 2013-01-06 23:12:51 trixisowned has joined
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1014 2013-01-06 23:29:34 <grau> 1806 ms total
1015 2013-01-06 23:29:34 <grau> 9.3 ms/tx total, 4.7 ms/txin verify
1016 2013-01-06 23:29:34 <grau> 1.0 ms/tx store
1017 2013-01-06 23:29:46 TheSeven has joined
1018 2013-01-06 23:30:20 rdymac has joined
1019 2013-01-06 23:30:27 <grau> sipa: I could not beat that old CPU :)
1020 2013-01-06 23:30:40 <grau> Your implementation is fast
1021 2013-01-06 23:31:31 <grau> but beat 0.7 bitcoind I think
1022 2013-01-06 23:31:32 <sipa> 2013-01-06 23:14:02 - Connect 194 transactions: 10.33ms (0.053ms/tx, 0.031ms/txin)
1023 2013-01-06 23:31:35 <sipa> 2013-01-06 23:14:02 - Verify 338 txins: 59.00ms (0.175ms/txin)
1024 2013-01-06 23:31:37 <sipa> 2013-01-06 23:14:02 - Connect: 68.36ms
1025 2013-01-06 23:31:40 <sipa> 2013-01-06 23:14:02 - Flush 487 transactions: 1.28ms (0.0026ms/tx)
1026 2013-01-06 23:31:42 <sipa> 2013-01-06 23:14:02 SetBestChain: new best=00000000000001591e48ca94c53c0e38bf034ca12c1a4a4b60b5e7239142b896 height=210433 work=635359256020621755616 tx=9450213 date=2012-12-01 12:57:05
1027 2013-01-06 23:32:02 <sipa> so 70ms total
1028 2013-01-06 23:32:15 <grau> impressing
1029 2013-01-06 23:32:39 <sipa> well, the ECDSA stuff is someone unfair, as i think it's hard to get that kind of performance in native java code
1030 2013-01-06 23:32:43 <sipa> *somewhat
1031 2013-01-06 23:33:32 <sipa> BlueMatt spent already a lot of time trying to optimize bouncycastle's ecdsa code
1032 2013-01-06 23:34:10 <grau> Yes, 87% of my time is in the verify
1033 2013-01-06 23:34:30 rdymac has quit (Client Quit)
1034 2013-01-06 23:34:42 <sipa> well, here it spent probably 200ms CPU time on ecdsa, and 12ms on the rest
1035 2013-01-06 23:34:49 Joric has quit ()
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1037 2013-01-06 23:35:11 <sipa> well, 20-40ms of that 200ms is probably script processing outside of actual ecdsa
1038 2013-01-06 23:37:18 <grau> Verify 338 txins: 59.00ms : Is this on the wall clock ?
1039 2013-01-06 23:37:25 <sipa> yes
1040 2013-01-06 23:37:30 <sipa> with 4 threads
1041 2013-01-06 23:37:52 <sipa> well, 8 threads, but on a HT cpu
1042 2013-01-06 23:38:17 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1043 2013-01-06 23:38:34 <grau> 8 or 4 do you use?
1044 2013-01-06 23:38:40 <sipa> 8
1045 2013-01-06 23:38:54 <sipa> but the last 4 don't help much, as expected (but still a bit)
1046 2013-01-06 23:39:14 swain has joined
1047 2013-01-06 23:39:15 <grau> ok, so its about 200-240ms cpu time, right ?
1048 2013-01-06 23:39:39 <sipa> something like that, yes
1049 2013-01-06 23:39:40 <grau> sorry, too tired
1050 2013-01-06 23:39:51 <sipa> i can try single-threaded to compare
1051 2013-01-06 23:39:56 <petertodd> I wonder how many of the trolls on the forums realize that the only reason I write such long, detailed technical replies is because I learn best by explaining things to people...
1052 2013-01-06 23:40:39 <grau> its rather 400
1053 2013-01-06 23:41:52 <sipa> grau: my current parallel script verification code is far from optimal, and has a lot of overhead and doesn't push all cores to 100%, though
1054 2013-01-06 23:42:17 <sipa> a much better implementation is possible, but that requires more refactoring
1055 2013-01-06 23:42:25 <grau> ok, I just try to estimate the magnitude of the difference
1056 2013-01-06 23:42:51 <sipa> i'm now reindexing with single-threaded code
1057 2013-01-06 23:43:17 <sipa> iirc, it's something like 0.5ms/txin on this CPU in single-threaded code
1058 2013-01-06 23:44:21 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat-GNOME)
1059 2013-01-06 23:45:22 <grau> my on the clock time for verification is 1579 ms, that is about 6000ms CPU (I press them quite high). That would mean that ecdsa code is about 30x faster.
1060 2013-01-06 23:45:58 t7 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1061 2013-01-06 23:46:18 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1062 2013-01-06 23:46:24 <grau> ok take away 2-3x for java, then about a magnitude
1063 2013-01-06 23:46:27 <sipa> basic OpenSSL is around 20%-25% slower than what we have now
1064 2013-01-06 23:46:38 <sipa> so most of it is really thanks to OpenSSL
1065 2013-01-06 23:47:38 swain has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1066 2013-01-06 23:48:19 <grau> i will have to counter that with functionality :)
1067 2013-01-06 23:48:22 <gmaxwell> It sounded like Jeff's in memory C implementation is much faster than bitcoin-qt/d at least with script validation disabled and without storing undo information.
1068 2013-01-06 23:48:37 <grau> but now have to sleep.
1069 2013-01-06 23:49:20 swainsson has joined
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1071 2013-01-06 23:49:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes, it's tempting trying to get closer to that :)
1072 2013-01-06 23:49:46 <MC1984> guys why dont you just write a validator in machine code
1073 2013-01-06 23:49:49 <MC1984> should be pretty good
1074 2013-01-06 23:50:27 <sipa> swainsson: hi there! did I meet you in Reykjavik and London?
1075 2013-01-06 23:50:40 maaku has joined
1076 2013-01-06 23:51:52 <MC1984> actually if bitcoin goes on long enough i bet someone would do that
1077 2013-01-06 23:51:58 <MC1984> but it would be closed source
1078 2013-01-06 23:52:10 <gmaxwell> sipa: it would at least be interesting to know where the difference comes from. If it's mostly leveldb reads, for example, then more caching might help. If its heap allocator pressure... welll.
1079 2013-01-06 23:52:35 <gmaxwell> MC1984: usually writing in assembly/machine code results in slower code.
1080 2013-01-06 23:52:49 <sipa> gmaxwell: with several gigabytes of cache, there shouldn't be any leveldb reads at all
1081 2013-01-06 23:53:19 <MC1984> thats contrary to my (very limted) knowledge of programming
1082 2013-01-06 23:53:22 Z0rZ0rZ0r has quit (Quit: Wheeeee)
1083 2013-01-06 23:53:32 <gmaxwell> MC1984: modern CPUs are so complex that humans tend to do a poor job of optimizing for them.. on very small segments of straighforward code a human can beat a compiler but it doesn't generalize.
1084 2013-01-06 23:53:50 <sipa> gmaxwell: though the current cache implementation is stupid (=always assume all entries are dirty, and flush the entire set when it gets too big)
1085 2013-01-06 23:54:25 <MC1984> wouldnt ecdsa verification count as simple enough to write machine code for? It just does the same smallt hing over and over again right
1086 2013-01-06 23:54:33 <sipa> i've been wanting to replace it with a nice MRU cache
1087 2013-01-06 23:54:40 <gmaxwell> MC1984: e.g. so a hand written ecdsa implementation may indeed be good (though not as good as algorithimic improvements) but a whole validation engine is less likely.
1088 2013-01-06 23:55:00 <gmaxwell> MC1984: yea, ecdsa itself sure. I thought you meant the whole block validation code.
1089 2013-01-06 23:55:13 <gmaxwell> MC1984: if someone wanted to spend a bunch of effort making ecdsa faster they'd write a gpu version.
1090 2013-01-06 23:55:16 <sipa> gmaxwell: using a hashmap instead of std::map for the cache would also speed things up
1091 2013-01-06 23:55:40 <sipa> gmaxwell: or an FPGA version... or wait, an ASIC!
1092 2013-01-06 23:55:49 <MC1984> shit thats a good point, why not parralellise it on the GPU instead
1093 2013-01-06 23:56:17 <swainsson> Sipa ... Yes this is Swain from Reykjavik
1094 2013-01-06 23:56:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: could just make a fixed size hashtable and resolve collisions by overwriting.
1095 2013-01-06 23:56:22 <sipa> MC1984: because making bitcoind do OpenCL stuff would be a dependency disaster :)
1096 2013-01-06 23:56:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: nice idea
1097 2013-01-06 23:56:45 <MC1984> thats a shame
1098 2013-01-06 23:57:21 <gmaxwell> OpenCL seems to not be so bad dependency wise.. though if we had something like that I'd probably want to move the ecdsa checker to another process. Then you could even have an MPI one that shared it across multiple computers. :P
1099 2013-01-06 23:57:37 BNCatDIGISHELL has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1100 2013-01-06 23:57:49 <MC1984> oh well, im sure gpu compute support will be standard enough in future
1101 2013-01-06 23:58:14 <sipa> swainsson: cool; how are you?
1102 2013-01-06 23:58:16 <gmaxwell> MC1984: on modern cpus it's quite fast now without any fancy gpu stuff though, so.. I dunno if it matters much.
1103 2013-01-06 23:58:20 BNCatDIGISHELL has joined
1104 2013-01-06 23:58:41 <MC1984> yeah its an optimisation for the future for when the next dice comes around.......
1105 2013-01-06 23:58:54 freakazoid has joined
1106 2013-01-06 23:59:07 <MC1984> and the block limit is lifted i suppose, if ever
1107 2013-01-06 23:59:08 <swainsson> Hey Sipa, pretty good, how are you?
1108 2013-01-06 23:59:28 <sipa> good, but tired... just drove 650km from belgium to switserland :)