1 2013-01-07 00:00:07 <swainsson> Painful to drive, but at least there is no time difference!
2 2013-01-07 00:00:13 <sipa> yeah
3 2013-01-07 00:00:21 <swainsson> I'm curious about a comment I read somewhere about moving away from Berkeley database, didn't see any further remarks about it anywhere, wondering if anyone could explain briefly.
4 2013-01-07 00:00:39 <sipa> sure>
5 2013-01-07 00:00:49 <sipa> (if you can cite the comment...)
6 2013-01-07 00:01:54 <swainsson> https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools "These tools are becoming obsolete as we move away from using Berkeley DB in Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoind."
7 2013-01-07 00:02:12 TheSeven has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
8 2013-01-07 00:02:20 <sipa> yes, 0.8 will use a new database layout, built on LevelDB
9 2013-01-07 00:02:24 <sipa> instead of BDB
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11 2013-01-07 00:02:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: what to do with a dirty cache entry that is collided with?
12 2013-01-07 00:03:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: you can't just write it to the backend database (as that must be done atomically with all changes together), and you can't just move it to a queue of future writes, as that will make re-reads returns the old value
13 2013-01-07 00:03:57 <sipa> so you need to deal with reading back collided entries anyway
14 2013-01-07 00:04:39 <swainsson> How soon is that may I ask? Just to get some dirt under the fingernails I was thinking of messing around with gavin's tools but if the levelDB is around the corner perhaps that' s not worth spending time on ..
15 2013-01-07 00:05:00 <sipa> a few weeks at least
16 2013-01-07 00:05:50 <sipa> swainsson: actually, i explained you part of the new database system in the Kex :)
17 2013-01-07 00:07:39 <cosurgi> ;;bc,stats
18 2013-01-07 00:07:41 <cosurgi> ;bc,stats
19 2013-01-07 00:07:41 <gribble> Current Blocks: 215478 | Current Difficulty: 2979636.6169381 | Next Difficulty At Block: 215711 | Next Difficulty In: 233 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 12 hours, 34 minutes, and 5 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 3236645.20832965 | Estimated Percent Change: 8.62550117456
20 2013-01-07 00:07:53 <swainsson> Will the data schema (if that's the word for it) change materially ? You may have, but I was very new to it then and didn't know much c++ ... !!! It was like an ancient greek text to me, you gave me a synopsis and now I can at least spell some of the words!
21 2013-01-07 00:08:03 <gmaxwell> sipa: darn, didn't think about dirty entries.
22 2013-01-07 00:08:26 GMP has joined
23 2013-01-07 00:08:27 <sipa> swainsson: yes, very much
24 2013-01-07 00:08:44 <sipa> it's not comparable to what was stored in the BDB databases
25 2013-01-07 00:09:22 <swainsson> Ok, so I'll leave Gavin's tools alone ...
26 2013-01-07 00:11:41 <swainsson> Sipa and others: I'll leave you guys to your discussion for the time being. Thanks Sipa! Over and out!
27 2013-01-07 00:11:51 swainsson has left ()
28 2013-01-07 00:11:53 <sipa> no need to leave!
29 2013-01-07 00:11:55 <sipa> dang...
30 2013-01-07 00:13:58 <sipa> gmaxwell: i've pretty much thought it out, with a map whose values contain pointers to eachother to form 3 doubly-linked lists (one dirty, one nondirty, and one 'deleted')
31 2013-01-07 00:14:21 <sipa> gmaxwell: but haven't gotten to implementing it yet
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43 2013-01-07 00:51:25 <BlueMatt> ok...so major issue with how the bloom filters are matched...we (well...ok I) hugely underestimated how quickly the bloom filter fp rate would balloon as soon as download starts and you get the first few false positives which add the tx hash to the filter....
44 2013-01-07 00:51:25 <BlueMatt> it kinda starts reaching 100% fp rate within a few thousand blocks
45 2013-01-07 00:51:25 <BlueMatt> (of inital blocks, so almost entirely 1 tx/block)
46 2013-01-07 00:52:56 <sipa> that's bad news
47 2013-01-07 00:53:24 <sipa> so it means clients are essentially required to track the size of the remote filter, and reset the bloom filter occasionally
48 2013-01-07 00:54:11 <sipa> maybe clients can ask to receive a special message when a certain expect fp% is reached in the filter?
49 2013-01-07 00:54:47 <sipa> i hate adding even more p2p messages though
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54 2013-01-07 01:08:55 <BlueMatt> I was thinking of re-sending the filter every N blocks (say, 2000)
55 2013-01-07 01:08:55 <BlueMatt> its ugly, but its simple
56 2013-01-07 01:08:55 <BlueMatt> and its not expensive
57 2013-01-07 01:08:55 <BlueMatt> (other issue, bitcoinj-specific: I believe it wont take txn which are not standard types, so the auto-add stuff doesnt really effect bitcoinj clients, which will resend the exact same filter...)
58 2013-01-07 01:09:08 <BlueMatt> having the "server" keep track of # elements added to the filter since receiving it seems ok...though I agree adding yet another message is a pain
59 2013-01-07 01:12:17 rdymac has joined
60 2013-01-07 01:12:23 <sipa> the client cannot be expected to make a good guess about the speed at which the server-side filter is degrading
61 2013-01-07 01:12:28 <sipa> while the server knows exactly
62 2013-01-07 01:12:35 <BlueMatt> the client does too
63 2013-01-07 01:12:47 <BlueMatt> for each txn it receives, it knows the server added one item
64 2013-01-07 01:12:49 <BlueMatt> (or is it 2?)
65 2013-01-07 01:13:00 <sipa> one, iirc
66 2013-01-07 01:13:09 <sipa> ok; that's true
67 2013-01-07 01:14:02 <sipa> the server knows slightly better (=the % of bits set in the filter), but assuming no collision attack against the hash functions, the client does indeed have a very good estimate
68 2013-01-07 01:14:30 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
69 2013-01-07 01:15:17 <BlueMatt> not quite, the client actually knows better (you can only accurately calculate fp rate if you know the exact # elements)
70 2013-01-07 01:15:44 <BlueMatt> still...its kinda ugly to just re-send the filter every N blocks....
71 2013-01-07 01:16:21 <BlueMatt> i was hoping to point it out and have someone point out the obvious solution (tm) to which i would facepalm and go implement
72 2013-01-07 01:17:48 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: sending negative bits sometimes perhaps?
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75 2013-01-07 01:20:04 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: sounds tricky to implement without giving away which txn were fp, though same is true of resending a filter (in the non-bitcoinj case) as resending would probably mean giving away exactly which txn were fp
76 2013-01-07 01:20:08 <BlueMatt> or at least most of them
77 2013-01-07 01:20:30 <BlueMatt> (the case where a client actually uses weird tx types and has to keep the auto-added objects)
78 2013-01-07 01:22:08 <sipa> bitcoinj needs the auto-added objects too, no?
79 2013-01-07 01:22:26 <sipa> how would you detect spends of wallet outputs otherwise?
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81 2013-01-07 01:23:18 * jgarzik_ reads scrollback
82 2013-01-07 01:23:29 <jgarzik_> false positives are automatically added?
83 2013-01-07 01:23:37 jgarzik_ is now known as jgarzik
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85 2013-01-07 01:23:53 <jgarzik> seems odd
86 2013-01-07 01:23:54 <sipa> the server has no way to know they are false, so ues
87 2013-01-07 01:23:57 <sipa> *yes
88 2013-01-07 01:24:32 <BlueMatt> in spend-to-pubkey case it does, true...
89 2013-01-07 01:24:40 <jgarzik> Seems like the server should just send whatever matches the filter, but not touch the filter without client input?
90 2013-01-07 01:24:59 <sipa> jgarzik: so the client would need to ask the server to update the filter after every single match?
91 2013-01-07 01:25:11 <sipa> that would add a ton of latency to syncing
92 2013-01-07 01:25:12 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: adds outpoints automatically if the output matches so that you dont have to re-send filter in the case of pay-to-pubkey
93 2013-01-07 01:25:16 <jgarzik> sipa: if it matched, why would the filter need to be update?
94 2013-01-07 01:25:20 <jgarzik> *updated
95 2013-01-07 01:25:32 <sipa> jgarzik: so you can detect transactions which spend its outputs
96 2013-01-07 01:26:06 <sipa> BlueMatt: but isn't that the main cause of the fp blowup... this process happens recursively
97 2013-01-07 01:26:18 <jgarzik> yep. it's not the huge penalty implied, if the client handles it
98 2013-01-07 01:26:19 <sipa> if you add the outputs of every matched transaction
99 2013-01-07 01:26:35 <BlueMatt> sipa: yes
100 2013-01-07 01:26:37 <jgarzik> and that leaves server logic nice and tidy
101 2013-01-07 01:26:45 <BlueMatt> sipa: wait...no
102 2013-01-07 01:27:01 <jgarzik> satoshidice is the only user that will care about added latency
103 2013-01-07 01:27:02 <BlueMatt> sipa: it adds outpoints of outputs that match, not txn that match or inputs that spend a matched outpoint
104 2013-01-07 01:27:07 <jgarzik> everyone else is just too small
105 2013-01-07 01:27:26 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: where were you when this was discussed thoroughly 6 months ago?
106 2013-01-07 01:27:33 <BlueMatt> :)
107 2013-01-07 01:28:30 <jgarzik> KISS. The latency is not a problem.
108 2013-01-07 01:35:11 <BlueMatt> landing, Ill bbl, maybe tomorrow
109 2013-01-07 01:35:40 <sipa> jgarzik: if you need to add outpoints yourself, you can't do a "send me blocks 5000-6000" in one request
110 2013-01-07 01:36:08 <sipa> jgarzik: it means you have to ask for one block, see if it matches anything that causes you to need to add something to the filter, ask for the same block again, ...
111 2013-01-07 01:38:07 maaku has joined
112 2013-01-07 01:39:02 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: its not just a latency issue, you'll miss transactions you wanted and didn't know you wanted.
113 2013-01-07 01:39:26 <sipa> jgarzik: in case of standard transactions, that isn't really a problem, as you don't need the outpoints to be added in the first place
114 2013-01-07 01:40:19 <sipa> but in the general case, as soon as you have one single pay-to-pubkey you want to match on, you need to update your filter continuously and re-request blocks all the time
115 2013-01-07 01:40:33 <sipa> unless the server adds the outpoints automatically to the filter in-loop
116 2013-01-07 01:42:59 <sipa> i wonder if a trick like: try to match output scripts, and also "_" + output script, and only add the outpoint automatically if the _ version matched
117 2013-01-07 01:43:30 <sipa> *data element of output script
118 2013-01-07 01:44:01 rdymac has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
119 2013-01-07 01:44:45 <maaku> anyone know of a sql backing store for bitcoinj?
120 2013-01-07 01:47:27 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
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128 2013-01-07 02:22:19 <MC1984> has anyone tried an IBD without the checkpoints
129 2013-01-07 02:24:17 <MC1984> with full verification from block 0
130 2013-01-07 02:24:38 <MC1984> seeing as the checkpoints are sort of just your opinion mans
131 2013-01-07 02:25:01 <andytoshi> no, but i bet it wouldn't be terrible
132 2013-01-07 02:25:08 <andytoshi> the huge blocks started fairly recently
133 2013-01-07 02:25:44 <MC1984> is there any way to try it with satoshi
134 2013-01-07 02:27:22 <andytoshi> checkpoints.cpp
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136 2013-01-07 02:27:55 <andytoshi> just comment out all of the checkpoints
137 2013-01-07 02:28:21 <MC1984> .............wat
138 2013-01-07 02:28:53 Dr-G has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
139 2013-01-07 02:28:54 <andytoshi> there is a big list in src/checkpoint.cpp that looks like
140 2013-01-07 02:28:57 <andytoshi> ( 11111, uint256("0x0000000069e244f73d78e8fd29ba2fd2ed618bd6fa2ee92559f542fdb26e7c1d"))
141 2013-01-07 02:28:58 <andytoshi> ( 33333, uint256("0x000000002dd5588a74784eaa7ab0507a18ad16a236e7b1ce69f00d7ddfb5d0a6"))
142 2013-01-07 02:29:10 <andytoshi> and so forth..you can definitely remove all but the first one
143 2013-01-07 02:29:17 <andytoshi> i'm not sure how to just give it an empty list
144 2013-01-07 02:30:22 <MC1984> maybe i could do that but i couldnt build it
145 2013-01-07 02:31:07 <andytoshi> if you're using linux 64, i could build you one
146 2013-01-07 02:31:17 <andytoshi> of course, you'd be trusting me
147 2013-01-07 02:31:28 <MC1984> windows
148 2013-01-07 02:31:39 <andytoshi> oh, sorry
149 2013-01-07 02:32:02 <MC1984> sok
150 2013-01-07 02:34:05 <MC1984> wow spvclient syncs the whole chain within minutes
151 2013-01-07 02:34:18 <MC1984> well the headers part of it anyway
152 2013-01-07 02:34:27 <MC1984> i wish real bitcoin was like that :/
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156 2013-01-07 02:40:06 <sipa> MC1984: -nocheckpoints
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162 2013-01-07 02:41:50 <MC1984> cool :)
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164 2013-01-07 02:42:27 <MC1984> is there a list of arguments somewhere?
165 2013-01-07 02:42:40 TwilightSparklee has joined
166 2013-01-07 02:42:41 <MC1984> inb4 bitcointalk.org
167 2013-01-07 02:43:41 <gmaxwell> MC1984: the help output ... --help
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170 2013-01-07 02:45:49 <MC1984> theres no checkpoints on testnet anyway right
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174 2013-01-07 02:50:32 <gmaxwell> no so
175 2013-01-07 02:50:36 <gmaxwell> er not
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181 2013-01-07 03:04:33 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: https://github.com/tlhunter/node-news-daemon Another Daemon fan.
182 2013-01-07 03:04:40 <jgarzik> nothing bitcoin related
183 2013-01-07 03:05:06 <SomeoneWeird> another node fan
184 2013-01-07 03:07:22 <MC1984> satoshi wont even relay zero fee txn? wtf
185 2013-01-07 03:09:50 <gmaxwell> MC1984: what the heck are you talking about?
186 2013-01-07 03:10:01 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it relays things that meet the anti-DOS rules.
187 2013-01-07 03:10:13 <gmaxwell> Some free transactions do, some do not.
188 2013-01-07 03:10:25 <gmaxwell> Without this restriction and dipstick with a shellscript could knock out the network.
189 2013-01-07 03:10:29 <MC1984> oh yeah
190 2013-01-07 03:10:44 <MC1984> whats the minimum btc to qualify for free txn
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192 2013-01-07 03:11:43 <MC1984> wait im talking shit
193 2013-01-07 03:11:54 <MC1984> i dont know what the dos rules are
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195 2013-01-07 03:13:19 <SomeoneWeird> lol
196 2013-01-07 03:14:49 <jgarzik> MC1984: it is more complicated than just minimum BTC. priority includes details like coin age -- thus punishing people trying to resend the same coin(s) over and over again
197 2013-01-07 03:16:47 <SomeoneWeird> that's neat
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210 2013-01-07 04:03:43 <BTCOxygen> <@jgarzik> MC1984: it is more complicated than just minimum BTC. priority includes details like coin age -- thus punishing people trying to resend the same coin(s) over and over again
211 2013-01-07 04:03:50 <BTCOxygen> ^^^^ Any wiki links?
212 2013-01-07 04:04:12 <gmaxwell> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees#Rules_for_calculating_minimum_fees
213 2013-01-07 04:04:58 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: Thanks
214 2013-01-07 04:05:28 <gmaxwell> like all things on that wikiâ I can't promise that it's completely accurate or current.
215 2013-01-07 04:06:57 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: seriously?
216 2013-01-07 04:07:03 <BTCOxygen> LOL
217 2013-01-07 04:07:05 Adifex has joined
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219 2013-01-07 04:07:52 <gmaxwell> What? this isn't a surprising statement. There is a lot of editing by clueless people there, anyone can edit it and many people do. Clueful people don't need to consult the pages often.
220 2013-01-07 04:07:59 <nanotube> it's a wiki that "anyone can edit", what do you expect? :)
221 2013-01-07 04:08:20 <gmaxwell> The stuff I _know_ is wrong I usually fix... but that still leaves a bunch of stuff I haven't looked at (recently)
222 2013-01-07 04:08:57 <Adifex> sorry, I just joinedâwhich wiki?
223 2013-01-07 04:09:39 <gmaxwell> bitcoin.it
224 2013-01-07 04:09:44 <kuzetsa> heh
225 2013-01-07 04:10:04 <gmaxwell> It's find and helpful, I don't dislike it. I was just pointing out that by providing the URL it doesn't mean I'd checked the page for accuracy.
226 2013-01-07 04:10:06 <Adifex> lol
227 2013-01-07 04:10:22 <SomeoneWeird> so is 500kb still the max blocksize?
228 2013-01-07 04:10:53 <kuzetsa> gmaxwell: well... can you confirm? Is the method for calculating fees based on age of coins correct? (sum the coins in base units multiplied by their respective ages and divide by whatever it was)
229 2013-01-07 04:11:09 <Graet> ;;seen jine
230 2013-01-07 04:11:09 <gribble> jine was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 days, 21 hours, 48 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <jine> paybitcoin: Need more testnet coins, just tell me. :)
231 2013-01-07 04:11:10 <SomeoneWeird> "priority = sum(input_value_in_base_units * input_age)/size_in_bytes"
232 2013-01-07 04:11:11 <kuzetsa> like... the size of the transaction and some sort of constant
233 2013-01-07 04:11:17 <kuzetsa> yeah, that.
234 2013-01-07 04:11:52 <kuzetsa> gmaxwell: it looks about right, but I haven't reviewed the source in a while.
235 2013-01-07 04:11:54 <gmaxwell> yes, priority = sum(input_value_in_base_units * input_confirms)/tx_size_in_bytes is correct
236 2013-01-07 04:12:20 <gmaxwell> SomeoneWeird: blocksizes don't have much to do with minimum fees for relaying.
237 2013-01-07 04:12:25 <gmaxwell> s/much/any/
238 2013-01-07 04:12:41 <SomeoneWeird> yeah, but still, is it? :P
239 2013-01-07 04:12:46 * gmaxwell dreds opening the page to see what confusion it spreads
240 2013-01-07 04:12:57 <gmaxwell> ugh.
241 2013-01-07 04:13:05 <gmaxwell> yes, of course, the page inspires confusion.
242 2013-01-07 04:13:16 <SomeoneWeird> heh
243 2013-01-07 04:13:20 <BTCOxygen> heh
244 2013-01-07 04:13:34 <SomeoneWeird> heh
245 2013-01-07 04:13:36 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: Edits Welcome
246 2013-01-07 04:13:44 <MC1984> Current default rules for the original Bitcoin client (Bitcoin 0.3.23):
247 2013-01-07 04:13:45 <MC1984> um
248 2013-01-07 04:13:48 <gmaxwell> SomeoneWeird: the blocksize target is 250k now.
249 2013-01-07 04:13:57 <SomeoneWeird> right
250 2013-01-07 04:14:29 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: I guess that page needs some editing
251 2013-01-07 04:15:03 <gmaxwell> but that doesn't really have anything to do with the fees, unlike the page seems to suggest... simply because the mining and relay rules are very different and the mining rules are stateful, so even if the 'current' block is very full the next one probably isn't.
252 2013-01-07 04:15:45 <SomeoneWeird> right
253 2013-01-07 04:16:10 <gmaxwell> (and in no case does the state of other transactions/blocks now influence what the client imposes as a minimum on transactions)
254 2013-01-07 04:24:56 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
255 2013-01-07 04:25:33 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: How much time can i expect a 3678 byte transaction to take ?
256 2013-01-07 04:25:42 <BTCOxygen> *I
257 2013-01-07 04:27:02 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
258 2013-01-07 04:27:14 <gmaxwell> -ENOTENOUGHDATA
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260 2013-01-07 04:29:28 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: Does blockchain.info shows the tx priority like (500000000 * 10 + 200000000 * 3) / 500 = 11,800,000 ?
261 2013-01-07 04:30:15 * gmaxwell looks around for the phantom gmaxwell' that has anything at all to do with blockchain.info
262 2013-01-07 04:31:19 <gmaxwell> BTCOxygen: dunno why you're asking me thatâ as far as I know blockchain.info doesn't even let you see what inputs a transaction is spending, much less the resulting priority.
263 2013-01-07 04:32:58 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: It does show you the inputs you spend
264 2013-01-07 04:34:12 <gmaxwell> http://blockchain.info/tx/95508c9e7d88e244aa6f4dc52d934f729ffe1aa92111c9a5188ee14d88569cdf < where?
265 2013-01-07 04:34:43 <MC1984> how many testnet nodes are there
266 2013-01-07 04:34:52 <MC1984> this ones been open over an hour with nothing
267 2013-01-07 04:35:19 <gmaxwell> MC1984: plenty. have you manually disabled IRC or something?
268 2013-01-07 04:35:42 <MC1984> no but
269 2013-01-07 04:35:44 <MC1984> 2013-01-07 04:11:46 IRC connect failed
270 2013-01-07 04:35:46 <MC1984> wut
271 2013-01-07 04:36:24 <gmaxwell> welp thats why
272 2013-01-07 04:36:37 <MC1984> 0 addresses found from DNS seeds
273 2013-01-07 04:36:38 <MC1984> wut
274 2013-01-07 04:37:31 <gmaxwell> There is no dnsseed in testnet.
275 2013-01-07 04:37:44 <gmaxwell> You must have IRC to find your initial peers, or provide one manually.
276 2013-01-07 04:37:51 <MC1984> lawd
277 2013-01-07 04:38:07 <MC1984> how do i fix the irc method then
278 2013-01-07 04:38:31 <gmaxwell> no clue, I have no idea why it's not workingâ is there some connectivity difference why outbound port 6667 would be blocked?
279 2013-01-07 04:40:09 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: http://blockchain.info/tx/95508c9e7d88e244aa6f4dc52d934f729ffe1aa92111c9a5188ee14d88569cdf?show_adv=true
280 2013-01-07 04:40:52 sgornick has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
281 2013-01-07 04:41:00 <gmaxwell> I still don't see them. Which transaction IDs and vout indexes is that transaction spending?
282 2013-01-07 04:41:37 <gmaxwell> I should have probably picked one with multiple inputs.
283 2013-01-07 04:41:49 <MC1984> well time for router reset
284 2013-01-07 04:42:22 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: Yeah, that would have been a better example
285 2013-01-07 04:42:43 * BTCOxygen goes to find a muti-input tx for gmaxwell
286 2013-01-07 04:43:20 <MC1984> cool i didnt even dc
287 2013-01-07 04:43:31 WolfAlex has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
288 2013-01-07 04:43:45 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: http://blockchain.info/tx/68ae570017f042c5140b83ec2e165eca358932072a2d4d84262394836a6cfa08
289 2013-01-07 04:43:48 WolfAlex has joined
290 2013-01-07 04:44:13 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: http://blockchain.info/tx/68ae570017f042c5140b83ec2e165eca358932072a2d4d84262394836a6cfa08?show_adv=true
291 2013-01-07 04:44:45 <gmaxwell> BTCOxygen: so, okay, againâ what txid/vouts are it spending. I don't see it listing any input txids.
292 2013-01-07 04:44:58 [\\\] has joined
293 2013-01-07 04:47:12 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: It does if you click one of those Output links
294 2013-01-07 04:47:44 <MC1984> wow this is inexplicable
295 2013-01-07 04:48:02 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: http://blockchain.info/tx-index/41848149/0
296 2013-01-07 04:48:19 <BTCOxygen> First Output link for transaction http://blockchain.info/tx/68ae570017f042c5140b83ec2e165eca358932072a2d4d84262394836a6cfa08?show_adv=true
297 2013-01-07 04:48:50 <gmaxwell> BTCOxygen: ah, you have to click on them. Well, there you go, you can now calculate the priority yourself.
298 2013-01-07 04:48:58 <gmaxwell> might have to do a bunch of clicking! :P
299 2013-01-07 04:49:25 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
300 2013-01-07 04:49:37 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
301 2013-01-07 04:49:46 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: Any Examples?
302 2013-01-07 04:49:52 <BTCOxygen> On how
303 2013-01-07 04:50:52 MC1984 has joined
304 2013-01-07 04:51:21 <gmaxwell> BTCOxygen: for each input, go get the confirmation count, and its value. and do the aformentioned math.
305 2013-01-07 04:51:48 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: Ok, got it.
306 2013-01-07 04:52:06 <BTCOxygen> size_in_bytes == ?????
307 2013-01-07 04:52:14 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: ^^
308 2013-01-07 04:53:08 <gmaxwell> Size 258 (bytes)
309 2013-01-07 04:53:13 <gmaxwell> on the transaction itself, at the top
310 2013-01-07 04:53:56 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: Oh
311 2013-01-07 04:54:02 <BTCOxygen> Found It
312 2013-01-07 04:54:33 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: btw, Thanks for the help
313 2013-01-07 04:57:27 <stealth222> I'm trying to remove dependencies in the satoshi client source - moving it away from everything depending on main.h and init.h
314 2013-01-07 04:58:00 <stealth222> I've noticed a few things - like the way that main.h is indirectly included many times via wallet.h
315 2013-01-07 04:59:09 <stealth222> and db.h
316 2013-01-07 04:59:28 <stealth222> I've managed to remove db.h's dependencies on main by including sync.h and serialize.h explicitly
317 2013-01-07 05:00:09 <stealth222> but there are a few tricky things about removing wallet and walletdb's dependencies on main and ui_interface
318 2013-01-07 05:00:29 <andytoshi> stealth222: if you're doing this to speed compilation, note that compilers are really good at this these days
319 2013-01-07 05:00:38 <stealth222> no, I'm doing this to make the codebase more modular
320 2013-01-07 05:00:39 <andytoshi> not even opening files that have already been included
321 2013-01-07 05:00:46 <stealth222> so it's easier to write new applications that reuse the same codebase
322 2013-01-07 05:00:52 <andytoshi> oh, then excellent
323 2013-01-07 05:01:35 <stealth222> I'd like to see bitcoind become optimized as a verification/relay agent
324 2013-01-07 05:01:47 <stealth222> and to create separate apps for wallets and historical databases
325 2013-01-07 05:01:59 <stealth222> and alerts
326 2013-01-07 05:02:13 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
327 2013-01-07 05:03:02 <andytoshi> cool, but does libbitcoin also have that goal? (i don't know)
328 2013-01-07 05:03:44 <stealth222> yes, but we do need a reference implementation of verification/relay since this is the core of what's needed to keep the network in operation
329 2013-01-07 05:04:04 <stealth222> and I'd like to see the satoshi client evolve into a streamlined verification/relay agent
330 2013-01-07 05:04:19 <andytoshi> me too -- it would be nice if init.cpp were readable
331 2013-01-07 05:04:25 <andytoshi> instead of this AppInit and AppInit2 thing
332 2013-01-07 05:04:26 <stealth222> lol
333 2013-01-07 05:04:37 <andytoshi> good luck! sorry to interrupt your question
334 2013-01-07 05:06:33 <stealth222> I built dependency graphs http://108.60.150.142/bitcoindoc/files.html
335 2013-01-07 05:07:12 maaku has joined
336 2013-01-07 05:07:14 <stealth222> taking a look at http://108.60.150.142/bitcoindoc/net_8cpp.html for example, we see that net.cpp depends on main.h but main.h is included indirectly via wallet.h and db.h
337 2013-01-07 05:07:16 <gmaxwell> stealth222: hopefully cleaning up some of that speeds up compiles?
338 2013-01-07 05:07:38 <gmaxwell> oh, er, you're going the _opposite_ direction. bleh.
339 2013-01-07 05:07:40 <stealth222> gmaxwell: that would be a desirable effect, too. But the main motivation is a more mmodular codebase
340 2013-01-07 05:08:14 <stealth222> less entangled codebase
341 2013-01-07 05:08:56 <stealth222> db.h has forward declarations for CWallet and CWalletTx, for instance, but never uses these types
342 2013-01-07 05:11:10 <stealth222> furthermore, db.h does depend on sync.h and serialize.h, but not really on main.h
343 2013-01-07 05:11:39 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
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345 2013-01-07 05:12:37 <stealth222> sync.h and serialize.h are easy to isolate since they only depend on external libraries and version.h
346 2013-01-07 05:13:24 <stealth222> which means that explicit includes of sync.h and serialize.h, removal of the main.h include, and removal of the unused forward declarations would be a good idea :)
347 2013-01-07 05:13:47 <andytoshi> at first glance, this looks good, but it could become a huge job
348 2013-01-07 05:13:58 <andytoshi> looking in main.h, there seems to be a lot of stuff that doesn't belong
349 2013-01-07 05:14:06 <stealth222> it won't be easy - it is a pretty big job
350 2013-01-07 05:14:13 <stealth222> but it will save a lot of grief later
351 2013-01-07 05:14:15 <andytoshi> forward dec'l of RegisterWallet, for example, which should be in wallet.h i would think
352 2013-01-07 05:15:05 <stealth222> so after fixing db.h, I moved onto wallet.h and walletdb.h
353 2013-01-07 05:15:18 <stealth222> there's an interesting issue here as walletdb defies the enum DBError
354 2013-01-07 05:15:24 <stealth222> *defines
355 2013-01-07 05:15:48 <stealth222> so a mutual include fails
356 2013-01-07 05:15:57 ciphermonk has joined
357 2013-01-07 05:16:02 <andytoshi> bleh
358 2013-01-07 05:16:09 <andytoshi> that's how things end up in main.h ;)
359 2013-01-07 05:16:40 <stealth222> we could move the DBError enum to a separate include file which is included in both wallet.h and walletdb.h
360 2013-01-07 05:16:54 <stealth222> not main.h - lol
361 2013-01-07 05:17:03 WolfAlex_ has joined
362 2013-01-07 05:17:26 <andytoshi> i dunno, making a new file seems like going in the wrong direction
363 2013-01-07 05:17:36 agath has quit (Quit: Ich mache hachfleisch aus dir! Porco dio!)
364 2013-01-07 05:17:44 agath has joined
365 2013-01-07 05:17:48 <andytoshi> honestly, i'd probably throw it into main.h, because enums are cheap
366 2013-01-07 05:17:50 <stealth222> the other alternative is to either remove wallet.h's dependence on walletdb.h or vice versa
367 2013-01-07 05:18:18 <stealth222> circular includes can be a pain in the ass
368 2013-01-07 05:18:26 <andytoshi> how does walletdb.h depend on wallet.h? it seems like walletdb should be strictly lower-level
369 2013-01-07 05:18:48 <stealth222> agreed. the dependency could probably be eliminated. it's just the use of the CWalletTx class
370 2013-01-07 05:19:10 <stealth222> CWalletDB::WriteTx
371 2013-01-07 05:19:20 <andytoshi> can you forward declare it?
372 2013-01-07 05:19:27 <andytoshi> i'm not sure what the semantics are for reference parameters
373 2013-01-07 05:19:53 WolfAlex has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
374 2013-01-07 05:20:03 <andytoshi> oh :P it's actually used
375 2013-01-07 05:21:33 <stealth222> I certainly don't want to use main.h as the place to define shared types, andytoshi
376 2013-01-07 05:21:52 gladoscc has joined
377 2013-01-07 05:22:12 <andytoshi> fair enough
378 2013-01-07 05:22:22 <gladoscc> I recall that more readable addresses (eg emails) was one of the things on todo list
379 2013-01-07 05:22:24 <stealth222> main.h/main.cpp are the core implementation of the verification/block chain management piece
380 2013-01-07 05:22:37 <gladoscc> why not make a simple protocol for querying an address over http?
381 2013-01-07 05:22:48 <andytoshi> the Right Thing to Do would be to translate the DBError into a WalletError in wallet.cpp
382 2013-01-07 05:22:56 <andytoshi> to eliminate the use of the DBErrors enum
383 2013-01-07 05:23:02 <andytoshi> in wallet.h
384 2013-01-07 05:23:06 Adifex has quit (Quit: Adifex)
385 2013-01-07 05:23:06 <gladoscc> eg: satoshidice.com:12345/lessthan512 -> 1diceFc2DeE ...
386 2013-01-07 05:23:24 Adifex has joined
387 2013-01-07 05:23:31 <stealth222> yeah, probably, andytoshi
388 2013-01-07 05:23:57 <andytoshi> gladoscc: because that's an invitation to phishing and wrecks the trust model bitcoin is built on
389 2013-01-07 05:24:24 <andytoshi> stealth222: but of course, then you're losing the information in DBError, or duplicating it in WalletError
390 2013-01-07 05:24:33 <andytoshi> bleh, C++ can be awful sometimes
391 2013-01-07 05:24:39 <gladoscc> andytoshi: how?
392 2013-01-07 05:25:31 <andytoshi> gladoscc: because you've reduced the security inherent in a bitcoin address (it is a hash of a pubkey) to the security of HTTP
393 2013-01-07 05:25:54 <gladoscc> yes, but if the attacker compromises the HTTP site
394 2013-01-07 05:26:00 <gladoscc> then they can change the addresses on the page to theirs
395 2013-01-07 05:26:05 <gladoscc> it would be a client side lookup
396 2013-01-07 05:26:11 <andytoshi> ...or the attacker runs literally any router between you and the site
397 2013-01-07 05:26:11 <gladoscc> you enter a URL in bitcoin-qt, it tells you the address.
398 2013-01-07 05:26:22 <gladoscc> how else is it gonna worK?
399 2013-01-07 05:26:22 <andytoshi> that's a good point
400 2013-01-07 05:27:11 <Luke-Jr> gladoscc: there's a mailing list discussion about a new payment protocol
401 2013-01-07 05:27:40 <Luke-Jr> read that before piping in, IMO
402 2013-01-07 05:28:02 <andytoshi> gladoscc: there are secure ways to transfer addresses around, and it's dangerous for people to default to using http
403 2013-01-07 05:28:17 agath has quit (Quit: Ich mache hachfleisch aus dir! Porco dio!)
404 2013-01-07 05:28:24 <andytoshi> generally if you are on a payment site, you've got HTTPS and everything going for you, like with traditional payments
405 2013-01-07 05:28:25 agath has joined
406 2013-01-07 05:29:08 <stealth222> the only places that actually use that DBErrors return value from LoadWallet are init.cpp and test_bitcoin.cpp
407 2013-01-07 05:29:48 WolfAlex_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
408 2013-01-07 05:29:49 <andytoshi> stealth222: i think that LoadWallet belongs in walletdb.cpp
409 2013-01-07 05:29:56 <stealth222> yeah
410 2013-01-07 05:30:00 <andytoshi> it's a very thin wrapper around the CWalletDB constructor
411 2013-01-07 05:30:17 <andytoshi> that's what i'd do
412 2013-01-07 05:30:25 <stealth222> agreed
413 2013-01-07 05:30:57 WolfAlex has joined
414 2013-01-07 05:31:46 <stealth222> CWalletDB already has a LoadWallet method
415 2013-01-07 05:32:08 <andytoshi> haha
416 2013-01-07 05:32:10 gladoscc is now known as TradeFortress
417 2013-01-07 05:32:32 <andytoshi> yuck, it's totally different
418 2013-01-07 05:32:44 agath has quit (Client Quit)
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420 2013-01-07 05:33:42 <andytoshi> ...oh, no, the CWallet one is a wrapper of the CWalletDB one
421 2013-01-07 05:33:48 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
422 2013-01-07 05:35:25 <stealth222> yeah, it's pretty tricky to disentangle wallet from walletdb
423 2013-01-07 05:35:59 <andytoshi> i'd like to say, replace pwalletMain = new CWallet("wallet.dat");
424 2013-01-07 05:36:31 <andytoshi> with pwalletMain = new CWallet (new CWalletDB(), "wallet.dat"); or something
425 2013-01-07 05:36:51 <andytoshi> but that's ugly and allocates memory that nobody owns
426 2013-01-07 05:37:23 WolfAlex_ has joined
427 2013-01-07 05:37:24 <stealth222> yeah, I sorta did something similar in pull request 2124 - I created a global structure that owns wallet instances
428 2013-01-07 05:37:32 <andytoshi> oh, never mind, add a getter in CWallet for the internal CWalletDB, and replace
429 2013-01-07 05:37:44 <andytoshi> DBErrors nLoadWalletRet = pwalletMain->LoadWallet(fFirstRun);
430 2013-01-07 05:37:46 <andytoshi> with
431 2013-01-07 05:37:51 <andytoshi> DBErrors nLoadWalletRet = pwalletMain->GetWalletDB()->LoadWallet(fFirstRun);
432 2013-01-07 05:38:10 <andytoshi> no, that's gross because you're using a getter then modifying the state with it
433 2013-01-07 05:38:26 <andytoshi> i dunno, i'm going to bed
434 2013-01-07 05:38:28 <andytoshi> have fun :)
435 2013-01-07 05:38:30 <stealth222> lol
436 2013-01-07 05:38:36 <stealth222> goodnight
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438 2013-01-07 05:40:23 Impaler_ is now known as Impaler
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447 2013-01-07 06:29:07 <stealth222> the usage of pchMessageStart is a bad idea :)
448 2013-01-07 06:29:39 <stealth222> different components, like the database and protocol handlers, should be initialized with a particular set of magic bytes
449 2013-01-07 06:29:56 <stealth222> and none of them should rely on a global defined in main.cpp
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453 2013-01-07 06:44:17 <gmaxwell> stealth222: having per network magic is handy, it ensures you don't get data from different networks mixed up.. and also using the same one avoids the trouble of finding multiple good values. (ones that are emulation resistant)
454 2013-01-07 06:44:55 <stealth222> right, hence the ability to initialize the components with different magic bytes depending on network
455 2013-01-07 06:45:25 <stealth222> that's what I meant
456 2013-01-07 06:45:50 <stealth222> point is, the different components should not rely on a global variable externed via main.h
457 2013-01-07 06:47:18 <stealth222> for instance, the CAddrDB class could have a private member set to this in its constructor
458 2013-01-07 06:51:52 vsrinivas has joined
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463 2013-01-07 07:22:23 <stealth222> separating all these pieces out will also make unit testing a whole heck of a lot simpler
464 2013-01-07 07:30:19 <stealth222> I removed dependencies of db.cpp on main.h: http://108.60.150.142/bitcoindoc/dependencycleanup/html/db_8cpp.html
465 2013-01-07 07:31:25 <stealth222> here's what the graph used to look like: http://108.60.150.142/bitcoindoc/html/db_8cpp.html
466 2013-01-07 07:39:25 <gmaxwell> stealth222: you just broke testnet with that patch, congrats. :P
467 2013-01-07 07:39:38 <stealth222> did I?
468 2013-01-07 07:39:57 <gmaxwell> It has a different version string.
469 2013-01-07 07:40:05 <stealth222> I know - it gets initialized
470 2013-01-07 07:40:32 <stealth222> look in init.cpp line 901
471 2013-01-07 07:40:37 <gmaxwell> Ahâ then why give it a default value? the string shouldn't be repeated in the code.
472 2013-01-07 07:40:53 <stealth222> I could remove the default value
473 2013-01-07 07:42:34 <stealth222> now it gets initialized to 0x00000000
474 2013-01-07 07:46:30 Scrat has joined
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484 2013-01-07 08:05:06 <stealth222> why is the pull-tester giving me this error? util.cpp:955:46: error: 'struct boost::filesystem::basic_path<std::basic_string<char>, boost::filesystem::path_traits>::string_type' has no member named 'string'
485 2013-01-07 08:05:22 <stealth222> for pull request 2124
486 2013-01-07 08:05:36 <stealth222> it builds fine on my systems
487 2013-01-07 08:05:40 <stealth222> differences in boost library?
488 2013-01-07 08:06:15 <stealth222> I see a string method here: http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_52_0/boost/filesystem/path.hpp
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496 2013-01-07 08:19:36 <sipa> stealth222: there is boost filesystem v2 and v3, and they are incompatible
497 2013-01-07 08:19:55 <stealth222> argh
498 2013-01-07 08:20:05 <stealth222> so how to fix that?
499 2013-01-07 08:20:28 <sipa> check how to do what you want in the old codr
500 2013-01-07 08:20:49 <sipa> and either use something that works in both
501 2013-01-07 08:21:01 <sipa> or use an #ifdef...
502 2013-01-07 08:21:13 impulse has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
503 2013-01-07 08:21:41 Adifex has quit (Quit: Adifex)
504 2013-01-07 08:22:46 <sipa> btw, calling rpcconvert from inside an rpc method is wrong: rpcconvert is part of the cli rpc client, while the rpc method runs serverside
505 2013-01-07 08:23:00 WolfAlex has joined
506 2013-01-07 08:23:16 <sipa> you expect rpc clients to send correctly-formatted values
507 2013-01-07 08:24:05 <stealth222> aren't all rpc requests sent as strings?
508 2013-01-07 08:24:18 WolfAlex_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
509 2013-01-07 08:24:56 <sipa> no, not at all
510 2013-01-07 08:25:21 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: hi
511 2013-01-07 08:25:25 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: you here?
512 2013-01-07 08:25:35 <sipa> the rpc client parses arguments, and sends them fully structured to the server
513 2013-01-07 08:26:00 <BTCOxygen> Say for example
514 2013-01-07 08:26:09 <BTCOxygen> I have a Wallet on Computer A
515 2013-01-07 08:26:19 <stealth222> so then we need to add stuff to CommandLineRPC to deal with usewallet?
516 2013-01-07 08:26:19 <BTCOxygen> and a copy of that on Computer B
517 2013-01-07 08:26:38 <BTCOxygen> I send bitcoins only from Computer A
518 2013-01-07 08:26:56 <sipa> rpcconvertarguments needs magic tov deal with usewallet
519 2013-01-07 08:27:04 WolfAlex_ has joined
520 2013-01-07 08:27:06 <stealth222> I could just move that code from usewallet to CommandLineRPC
521 2013-01-07 08:27:08 <BTCOxygen> And only watch Transactions from Computer B, Also i have never sent a transaction from Computer B
522 2013-01-07 08:27:24 <stealth222> or could use RPCConvertValues, yeah
523 2013-01-07 08:27:25 <BTCOxygen> All my transactions are sent from Computer A
524 2013-01-07 08:27:40 <sipa> yeah
525 2013-01-07 08:27:49 <BTCOxygen> Why does the Wallet on Computer B not match the wallet on Computer A after some time?
526 2013-01-07 08:27:52 <BTCOxygen> Any idea?
527 2013-01-07 08:28:19 <sipa> BTCOxygen: because both computers generate new addresses
528 2013-01-07 08:28:35 <sipa> for change
529 2013-01-07 08:29:01 <sipa> and as those are random, they will not generate the same ones
530 2013-01-07 08:29:42 <sipa> initially, they will use key pool addresses, which was copied along
531 2013-01-07 08:30:07 WolfAlex has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
532 2013-01-07 08:30:48 <sipa> but after by default 100 new keys, they won't be looking for the same addresses anymore
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535 2013-01-07 08:31:15 <sipa> to do what you want, you need deterministic addresses
536 2013-01-07 08:31:51 <petertodd> are deterministic addresses on the roadmap for the satoshi client?
537 2013-01-07 08:32:11 <sipa> yes
538 2013-01-07 08:32:21 <sipa> see BIP 3
539 2013-01-07 08:32:33 <sipa> BIP 32, i mean
540 2013-01-07 08:33:18 <petertodd> yeah, I've been following that, I mean, are you guys thinking 0.8 possibly, 0.9?
541 2013-01-07 08:35:13 <sipa> 0.8 is too optimistic, i think
542 2013-01-07 08:36:04 <petertodd> figures, I haven't seen any related pull requests
543 2013-01-07 08:36:16 eb3kk has joined
544 2013-01-07 08:36:53 <sipa> it's not even fully implemented yet
545 2013-01-07 08:37:30 impulse has joined
546 2013-01-07 08:37:36 <sipa> i've asked Hal to take a look at it last month, but haven't heard back from him yet
547 2013-01-07 08:39:04 <petertodd> ah, vetting the crypto. are there any p2sh-related plans for it as well? I noticed the bip doesn't mention any of that
548 2013-01-07 08:40:19 WolfAlex has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
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550 2013-01-07 08:41:54 <sipa> they're unrelated
551 2013-01-07 08:42:13 <sipa> bip32 just specifies how to generate keys
552 2013-01-07 08:42:36 TradeFortress has left ()
553 2013-01-07 08:42:47 <sipa> what you do with those keys is up to the application, i suppose
554 2013-01-07 08:43:26 <petertodd> ah, I see, so eventual wallet standardization is a next step
555 2013-01-07 08:43:50 <sipa> how do you mean?
556 2013-01-07 08:45:43 WolfAlex has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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558 2013-01-07 08:46:16 <petertodd> just the nitty gritty details of stuff like standards for how to combine BIP32-created keys into multisig addresses, for instance standardizing the order of keys in p2sh multisig
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561 2013-01-07 08:48:05 <sipa> iirc alan reiner has been thinking/writing about that on the forum
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563 2013-01-07 08:53:06 <petertodd> thanks, yeah I was thinking of doing up a simple 2-of-3 transaction signer to run on a separate computer for my latest project
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565 2013-01-07 08:54:02 <petertodd> I'm still kinda surprised none of the services out there have bothered doing any of this stuff
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575 2013-01-07 09:51:09 <stealth222> sipa: https://github.com/CodeShark/bitcoin/commit/74228a2228544556dc4822a154eac7f7c0331da4
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674 2013-01-07 17:11:53 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: Daemon author Daniel Suarez mentioned you: https://plus.google.com/111341398160608381865/posts/dPFfy2ds7R5
675 2013-01-07 17:12:17 <gmaxwell> Very cool.
676 2013-01-07 17:12:56 sgornick has joined
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679 2013-01-07 17:20:42 <gavinandresen> we should try to get him to speak at the conference
680 2013-01-07 17:22:28 <kinlo> when is the next conference?
681 2013-01-07 17:23:30 <gavinandresen> kinlo: see http://www.bitcoin2013.com/ May 17-19
682 2013-01-07 17:24:00 <kinlo> shouldn't there be some kind of link on the official home page?
683 2013-01-07 17:24:05 libcoin has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
684 2013-01-07 17:24:11 <kinlo> anyway, too far away for me
685 2013-01-07 17:24:24 <gavinandresen> kinlo: conference is soft-launched right now, to round up speakers/panelists/etc
686 2013-01-07 17:24:28 <upb> is it organzied by bruce wagner?
687 2013-01-07 17:24:30 <kinlo> ic
688 2013-01-07 17:24:42 <gavinandresen> when the program is more set and you can actually sign up and pay there will be a bigger push
689 2013-01-07 17:25:01 <gavinandresen> upb: no, not organized by bruce.
690 2013-01-07 17:25:19 MC1984 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
691 2013-01-07 17:25:23 <gavinandresen> organized by Lindsay, who has experience with organizing conferences....
692 2013-01-07 17:25:30 MC1984 has joined
693 2013-01-07 17:25:40 <kinlo> well, CA is a bit too far away for me anyway
694 2013-01-07 17:26:04 <sipa> i'll try to get there
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696 2013-01-07 17:26:22 <gavinandresen> sipa: awesome!
697 2013-01-07 17:26:24 <kinlo> yeah, but you're more involved :)
698 2013-01-07 17:26:38 <kinlo> it's a bit much to pay :)
699 2013-01-07 17:27:15 <gavinandresen> sipa: Google World Headquarters is close, you and Mike should figure out an excuse to go visit the mothership
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710 2013-01-07 17:43:55 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: you don't happen to know Daniel Suarez personally, do you?
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713 2013-01-07 17:58:01 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: kinda sorta not really
714 2013-01-07 17:59:09 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I promoted his first book Daemon heavily on my blog/twitter/etc. because I was so taken with it. Since then, I comment semi-frequently on his twitter/G+
715 2013-01-07 17:59:26 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: so personally, no. but he did send me a free book once :)
716 2013-01-07 17:59:30 libcoin has joined
717 2013-01-07 17:59:45 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: cool. I cc'ed you on an email to Lindsay RE: asking him to come to the conference
718 2013-01-07 17:59:56 maaku has joined
719 2013-01-07 18:00:09 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: he might be up for it. he's into disruptive technologies
720 2013-01-07 18:00:54 <gavinandresen> it'd be fun to meet him, Daemon is the best sci-fi book i've read in a long time
721 2013-01-07 18:02:01 <helo> sold!
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726 2013-01-07 18:16:37 <TD> yeah i'd hope that the conference can move around the world
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769 2013-01-07 20:15:52 <MC1984> hey whats the DNS name of where bitcoin tries to connect for irc peer discovery
770 2013-01-07 20:17:12 <sroecker> imho, it doesn't anymore except when you configure bitcoind to do it
771 2013-01-07 20:17:20 <sroecker> but irc.lfnet.org #bitcoin
772 2013-01-07 20:18:02 <MC1984> what port
773 2013-01-07 20:18:07 bitg has quit ()
774 2013-01-07 20:18:25 <MC1984> is that the same server that testnet uses?
775 2013-01-07 20:19:01 johzi has joined
776 2013-01-07 20:19:31 <sroecker> normal irc port 6667
777 2013-01-07 20:23:22 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
778 2013-01-07 20:23:23 <MC1984> 67.215.65.132
779 2013-01-07 20:23:52 <MC1984> thats irc.lfnet.org 6667 right
780 2013-01-07 20:25:12 <jurov> hello, can aomeone help me with bitcoind keypoolrefill ?
781 2013-01-07 20:25:35 <jurov> it won't show error, but "keypoolsize" remains 101
782 2013-01-07 20:25:56 <sroecker> MC1984: should be multiple servers (round robin(
783 2013-01-07 20:26:05 <gmaxwell> jurov: it's full tada.
784 2013-01-07 20:26:22 <jurov> so what should i do?
785 2013-01-07 20:26:51 <gmaxwell> jurov: What are you trying to do?
786 2013-01-07 20:27:10 <jurov> first. getnewaddress returns "Keypool ran out, please call keypoolrefill first." error
787 2013-01-07 20:27:37 <jurov> so i am trying to do as it says, but without effect.
788 2013-01-07 20:27:50 <jurov> version 7.0.1
789 2013-01-07 20:28:05 <jurov> bitcoind
790 2013-01-07 20:28:12 <gmaxwell> Do you use wallet encryption?
791 2013-01-07 20:28:19 Diapolo has joined
792 2013-01-07 20:28:40 <jurov> yes, i have to put walletpassphrase before keypoolrefill
793 2013-01-07 20:30:32 <jurov> i think it is 101 not 100 cause i have imported 1 additional privkey
794 2013-01-07 20:31:05 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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796 2013-01-07 20:32:49 <MC1984> k so i can connect to irc.lfnet.org #bitcoin with this client (room is empty)
797 2013-01-07 20:33:00 <sipa> #bitcoin isn't used
798 2013-01-07 20:33:06 <MC1984> but i cannot sync the testnet on any computers on my network
799 2013-01-07 20:33:09 <sipa> mainnet uses #bitcoin00 - #bitcoin99
800 2013-01-07 20:33:18 <sipa> testnet uses #bitcoinTEST
801 2013-01-07 20:33:32 <sipa> well, uses - it's been off by default since 0.6.0
802 2013-01-07 20:33:36 <sipa> for mainnet
803 2013-01-07 20:33:47 <jurov> anyone? pls, it's urgent, i need pregenerate the addresses for new user registrations
804 2013-01-07 20:34:37 <sipa> jurov: just a sec
805 2013-01-07 20:35:38 <sipa> jurov: so what happens if you run keypoolrefill?
806 2013-01-07 20:35:44 <jurov> nothing
807 2013-01-07 20:35:46 sroecker_ has joined
808 2013-01-07 20:36:22 <sipa> you can force a larger keypool by starting with the -keypool=N option
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811 2013-01-07 20:37:23 <MC1984> ok #bitcoin00 is empty and bitcointest has what looks like 8 nodes in it
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813 2013-01-07 20:37:36 <jurov> ok, restarting, we'll see...
814 2013-01-07 20:37:58 <MC1984> yet bitoin cant do irc discovery, i am confounded
815 2013-01-07 20:38:28 <sipa> there may be a problem with the irc server
816 2013-01-07 20:38:32 <sipa> gmaxwell: you know more?
817 2013-01-07 20:39:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: I don't think so now.
818 2013-01-07 20:39:33 <sipa> MC1984: maybe there are just very very little testnet nodes
819 2013-01-07 20:39:35 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it's not really empty, they disable who on connect, so you have to who manually.
820 2013-01-07 20:39:57 <gmaxwell> testnet is another channel. and there are few testnet nodes. but my own logs show it discoverting fine.
821 2013-01-07 20:41:02 <MC1984> im baffled
822 2013-01-07 20:42:19 <jurov> now keypoolrefill/getnewaddress works, thanks!
823 2013-01-07 20:42:37 <sipa> jurov: it should have worked before as well
824 2013-01-07 20:42:39 <gmaxwell> MC1984: can you join, from that network, #bitcoinTEST3 (note the 3) and then do a /who #bitcoinTEST3 ?
825 2013-01-07 20:43:03 <sipa> jurov: can you tell me how long it had been running, and what kind of RPCs you sent to it before?
826 2013-01-07 20:43:19 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
827 2013-01-07 20:43:28 <jurov> sipa, maybe it's the imported address. try whether it can't be reproduced by importing addy and then exhausting keypool
828 2013-01-07 20:43:43 <MC1984> the /who command didnt seem to do anything
829 2013-01-07 20:44:00 StarenseN has joined
830 2013-01-07 20:44:00 <MC1984> wait yes it did
831 2013-01-07 20:44:04 <MC1984> in the server window
832 2013-01-07 20:44:23 StarenseN is now known as Guest78295
833 2013-01-07 20:44:34 <MC1984> #bitcoinTEST3 u5gAbVwRGV 115.Red-83-55-122.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net giraffe.heliacal.net u5gAbVwRGVASknX H :1 u5gAbVwRGVASknX
834 2013-01-07 20:44:35 <MC1984> etc
835 2013-01-07 20:44:53 <jurov> sipa, in fact my machine crashed today. but I did not call getnewaddress long before that . i used it only to send/receive
836 2013-01-07 20:45:00 Guest78295 has quit (Client Quit)
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838 2013-01-07 20:45:25 <MC1984> if my irc client can do that why cant bitcoin :|||||||
839 2013-01-07 20:46:14 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
840 2013-01-07 20:47:21 <Diapolo> You are seeing 2013-01-07 20:29:55 ThreadIRCSeed started
841 2013-01-07 20:47:21 <Diapolo> 2013-01-07 20:29:55 ThreadIRCSeed trying to connect... messages in debug.log?
842 2013-01-07 20:47:57 <Diapolo> Well I have a IRC connect failed message with my testnet3 node ;).
843 2013-01-07 20:48:20 <MC1984> connection timeout
844 2013-01-07 20:48:20 <MC1984> 2013-01-07 20:29:16 IRC connect failed
845 2013-01-07 20:48:20 <MC1984> 2013-01-07 20:29:16 IRC waiting 71 seconds to reconnect
846 2013-01-07 20:48:28 <Diapolo> indeed, same here
847 2013-01-07 20:48:31 <sipa> i can't connect to irc.lfnet.org from my client either
848 2013-01-07 20:48:43 <MC1984> IM NOT GOING MAD
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850 2013-01-07 20:50:23 <grau> BlueMatt: are you here?
851 2013-01-07 20:52:25 rdymac has joined
852 2013-01-07 20:52:53 <grau> sipa: Did you use the BlueMatt blocktester ?
853 2013-01-07 20:53:15 <sipa> grau: it's ran automatically on all pull requests
854 2013-01-07 20:54:02 <grau> do you know how it actually checks bitcoind? WHat I see from code that it creates a sophisticated blockchain
855 2013-01-07 20:54:16 <grau> but do not see how it checks if bitcoind processes it correctly
856 2013-01-07 20:54:34 <sipa> i'm not familiar with the code myself
857 2013-01-07 20:54:50 <grau> I am asking what it does
858 2013-01-07 20:54:55 <grau> not how
859 2013-01-07 20:55:15 k0rx has joined
860 2013-01-07 20:55:43 <gmaxwell> grau: I think it just queries to make sure bitcoin is on the correct best block.
861 2013-01-07 20:55:57 pavel has joined
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863 2013-01-07 20:56:11 <sipa> it connects via P2P to a (patched) bitcoind, sends it blocks, and requests blocks back
864 2013-01-07 20:56:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm still seeing IRC on my testnet node.
865 2013-01-07 20:56:39 <grau> ok, so to summarize what I see. It creates a complicated block scenario and at every step or end asks bitcoind what is the trunk head
866 2013-01-07 20:56:52 <sipa> i suppose, yes
867 2013-01-07 20:57:07 <grau> This is much less than I proposed to do yesterday and I got yelled down.
868 2013-01-07 20:57:45 <gmaxwell> ...
869 2013-01-07 20:57:46 <sipa> grau: i think you misunderstood me then; i'm very much in favor of you building something similar using bitsofproof and that story system
870 2013-01-07 20:58:11 <sipa> grau: but it's not a replacement for testing with an already existing alternate implementation of such a thing
871 2013-01-07 20:58:26 <gmaxwell> grau: I think we're failing to communicate. Because the yelling down was only because we thought you were proposing to rewrite it instead of just running it.
872 2013-01-07 20:58:40 <sipa> every testing tool is welcome
873 2013-01-07 20:58:50 <grau> thanks. I feel better now
874 2013-01-07 20:59:00 <grau> I did not ment to do less but more.
875 2013-01-07 20:59:01 <gmaxwell> If you want to run it _and_ write something moreâ especially something that can run on multiple implementationsâ thats great!
876 2013-01-07 20:59:42 <gmaxwell> (multiple implementations is important not just because I want to benefit from your work, but its important so the results can be compared)
877 2013-01-07 21:00:11 <grau> I thought there is no point in comparison since you know the winner :)
878 2013-01-07 21:00:17 <grau> joking
879 2013-01-07 21:00:28 <sipa> grau: we are building a distributed system, where multiple implementations need to interact; ideally all implementation can also succesfully be used to test every other implementation
880 2013-01-07 21:01:00 <sipa> grau: what we want to avoid is exactly that every implementation is only used to test itself
881 2013-01-07 21:01:08 ByteUnit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
882 2013-01-07 21:03:20 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
883 2013-01-07 21:04:40 <grau> that is given with mine. I reuse tests that I find and are portable since formulated as data (e.g. json) or tests that are using the p2p interface I also implement, and want to create others in a portable format you might reuse.
884 2013-01-07 21:05:13 <grau> I have not yet understood how the blocktester works, if it also uses rpc then I might have to create those to that I actually tried to avoid
885 2013-01-07 21:05:18 <gmaxwell> The ultimate portablity is speaking the network protocolâ because then you avoid most cases where the peer behaves different in the test harness vs in-practice.
886 2013-01-07 21:05:27 <grau> YES
887 2013-01-07 21:05:37 <gmaxwell> grau: it doesn't use the RPC.
888 2013-01-07 21:05:43 <grau> great
889 2013-01-07 21:06:06 <gmaxwell> in theory, it should work against any implementation which has the minor rule modifications in the patch.
890 2013-01-07 21:06:24 <grau> If thats the case it will work with mine
891 2013-01-07 21:06:25 <sipa> grau: to me, it seemed yesterday that you consider reimplementing blocktester in your own system to be equivalent and better than running blocktester itself
892 2013-01-07 21:07:04 <sipa> grau: and while doing that is a great addition to the testing infrastructure available, it is not the same thing
893 2013-01-07 21:07:56 <grau> Again, I run it. In addition I create a format that allows to write scenarios of network events and specify expected behaviour in a much greather detail than trunk head
894 2013-01-07 21:08:19 <sipa> (but by all means, if you want to spend time on testing infrastructure, i want to be the last person to discourage you)
895 2013-01-07 21:08:23 <grau> bitcoind might use that format but you would have to do extra work
896 2013-01-07 21:08:27 sgornick has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
897 2013-01-07 21:09:16 <grau> since I choose a format I have a framework at hand on java
898 2013-01-07 21:10:30 <grau> and the expected outcomes will be formulated such as they are natural for my API
899 2013-01-07 21:10:36 <gmaxwell> grau: extra work? but if it speaks the network protocol what work is there to do?
900 2013-01-07 21:10:47 anon^_^ has joined
901 2013-01-07 21:10:53 <grau> but both above should not be logically orthogonal to any other system.
902 2013-01-07 21:11:03 <gmaxwell> And if it doesn't speak the network protocol how can you have any idea if different implementations behave the same way under test.
903 2013-01-07 21:11:19 <grau> it will speak network protokol
904 2013-01-07 21:11:23 ciscoftw has joined
905 2013-01-07 21:11:36 <gmaxwell> Great.
906 2013-01-07 21:11:42 <sipa> from what i understand, you have one bitsofproof running as a server on one side, and a tester bitsofproof running stories on the other side
907 2013-01-07 21:11:45 <grau> the files contain the messages but they will be sent to the to-be-tested node using the network protocol
908 2013-01-07 21:11:53 rdymac has joined
909 2013-01-07 21:11:58 <sipa> ideally, the first side can be replaced by bitcoind or any other full node implementation
910 2013-01-07 21:11:58 <grau> sipa: yes
911 2013-01-07 21:12:06 <sipa> and you'd be testing that implementation
912 2013-01-07 21:12:08 <sipa> BUT
913 2013-01-07 21:12:10 dan_ has joined
914 2013-01-07 21:12:22 <grau> sipa: wWAIT
915 2013-01-07 21:12:22 <sipa> on the other hand, you should be able to swap the other side with something like blocktester
916 2013-01-07 21:12:32 <ciscoftw> no where to turn... how is it that a single IP has solved as many blocks as fucking deepbit? 82.130.102.160> what infomation does /bitcoin-dev have about this?
917 2013-01-07 21:13:01 <grau> sipa: the feeder is not a full bitsofproof instance it is just the piece that does p2p communication
918 2013-01-07 21:13:14 <sipa> that doesn't matter, does it?
919 2013-01-07 21:13:31 <MC1984> ciscoftw so what
920 2013-01-07 21:13:40 <sipa> as long as it is powerful enough to distinguish correct or wrong behaviour on the other side
921 2013-01-07 21:13:48 <sipa> blocktester isn't a full node implementation either
922 2013-01-07 21:14:00 <grau> sipa: what I test with these tests is not the network communication but higher level logic
923 2013-01-07 21:14:12 <sipa> sure
924 2013-01-07 21:14:21 <sipa> but you test it through the P2P interface, and only that?
925 2013-01-07 21:14:30 <grau> sipa: I assume in these tests that that is ok and it does not matter that both are the same
926 2013-01-07 21:14:34 <ciscoftw> MC1984, how is that they've relayed so many blocks? and not be a pool (with asic support)
927 2013-01-07 21:14:52 <sipa> grau: sure, that doesn't matter
928 2013-01-07 21:15:02 DBordello has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
929 2013-01-07 21:15:53 <grau> I use the public p2p interface to feed the scenarios and I use the bitsofproof API to query the internal state of the to be tested node to see ot reacts to the p2p messages as it should
930 2013-01-07 21:15:59 <sipa> aaah
931 2013-01-07 21:16:12 <sipa> so it's not just the P2P interface
932 2013-01-07 21:16:14 <sipa> that changes things
933 2013-01-07 21:16:26 <MC1984> dunno
934 2013-01-07 21:16:35 <MC1984> maybe its botnet
935 2013-01-07 21:16:44 <grau> I need insight to the node to say if it processes correctly what is feeded.
936 2013-01-07 21:16:46 <ciscoftw> MC: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113654.0
937 2013-01-07 21:17:23 <gmaxwell> ciscoftw: see also, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=123726.0 geesh
938 2013-01-07 21:17:35 <ciscoftw> seems like somebody here should know what is happening when a 'random' entinty rapes hash that fast...
939 2013-01-07 21:17:39 <grau> The point is that the tests only use the P2P to feed in information and the API to check if the information was processed correctly
940 2013-01-07 21:17:50 <gmaxwell> grau: if the correct processing matters at all it is observable from the p2p side.
941 2013-01-07 21:18:06 <sipa> grau: it's essentially a whitebox test vs a blackbox test
942 2013-01-07 21:18:12 <grau> simple state yes, but I want to go beyond
943 2013-01-07 21:18:26 <sipa> the first can be stronger and detect more subtle errors more quickly
944 2013-01-07 21:18:27 <ciscoftw> many thanx ...again gmax :)
945 2013-01-07 21:18:45 <sipa> but the second has the very large advantage that it can be used to test _any_ implementation that implements a full P2P node
946 2013-01-07 21:18:52 <gmaxwell> as far as the network is concernedâ if you behave correctly on the p2p side you are correct. 100% of the correctness that matters to the bitcoin network should be testable from the p2p alone... though some things may be harder to detect in practice.
947 2013-01-07 21:19:08 <sipa> and you should have both
948 2013-01-07 21:19:19 <gmaxwell> The blackbox test also avoid some extra assumptions in how the measurements work.
949 2013-01-07 21:20:03 <grau> This is why I formulate the tests in a plain text, so you can write an adaptor for an other implementation that uses the API of that other implementation to query internal state
950 2013-01-07 21:20:24 <sipa> grau: but blocktester doesn't require anyone to write any adapter
951 2013-01-07 21:20:28 <gmaxwell> For example, say you have a rule that says the coin created in block 0 is unspendable. A whitebox test might ask your RPC what the balance is of that address, but if your implementation is wrong and only says "always return zero for balance" but still accepts blocks spending it, the whitebox test passes but the network still forks.
952 2013-01-07 21:20:34 cande has joined
953 2013-01-07 21:20:37 <grau> but this goes beyond that, right ?
954 2013-01-07 21:20:54 <sipa> as a unit test, yes, definitely
955 2013-01-07 21:20:58 <gmaxwell> grau: and if you assume an adaptor (or some other parsing of your 'plain text') then the adaptor makes the test not equal.
956 2013-01-07 21:21:03 <sipa> but not as a compliance validation system
957 2013-01-07 21:21:55 <grau> I just do not get you. I offer validation through P2P and add on top validation with API what is wrong with more?
958 2013-01-07 21:22:42 Guest78295 has quit ()
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960 2013-01-07 21:22:48 <grau> I can certainly observe the P2P responses, but having API in addition gives me even more insight
961 2013-01-07 21:23:25 <grau> I asked you what does the blocktester.
962 2013-01-07 21:23:27 <gmaxwell> more is fine, but if more means that it only works with one implementation that isn't good. And if the whitebox tests are a crutch then potentially the p2p tests would not be good enough.
963 2013-01-07 21:23:51 <sipa> assume a future where there are 20 full node implementations
964 2013-01-07 21:24:12 <sipa> and there are two test systems, block tester (pure P2P) and yours (P2P + internal state observation)
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966 2013-01-07 21:24:41 <sipa> block tester has been used to validate all of them, since it's as simple as just running it
967 2013-01-07 21:24:55 <sipa> and it is known to have caught errors, simply by looking at the P2P code
968 2013-01-07 21:25:28 <sipa> yours has also been used to succesfully validate systems and catch bugs, but only in a few systems, and needed that internal state to find the problems
969 2013-01-07 21:27:00 <grau> The blocktester if it is pure p2p will run with my implementation, therefore anything my test finds is in addition to that
970 2013-01-07 21:27:28 <sipa> i'm trying to explain it using an example, but it's just this: correct behaviour is only defined by how you react on P2P, and a system that is known to be able to validate systems and find problems using only P2P is more powerful than one that needs internal inspection to find problems
971 2013-01-07 21:27:34 <gmaxwell> I look forward to hearing your blocktester results, and also look forward to hearing what issues you find that blocktester missed!
972 2013-01-07 21:27:49 <sipa> grau: except when there is a problem with the tester - and that's why more testers is good
973 2013-01-07 21:29:04 <grau> Let me clarify that the internal state I referred to are useful functions for business e.g. query balance of an address.
974 2013-01-07 21:29:26 <sipa> but a node doesn't need to implement that to be a compliant implementation
975 2013-01-07 21:29:52 <grau> Yes, then it does not run those test scenarios
976 2013-01-07 21:29:56 <sipa> (if it does implement that, it certainly needs testing, don't get me wrong, and you offer a great way to do that)
977 2013-01-07 21:30:33 <grau> Eg. I do not run the wallet tests of bitcoind since I have no wallet
978 2013-01-07 21:31:28 <grau> With internal state observation I can test e.g nLockTime processing of unconfirmed tx
979 2013-01-07 21:32:02 <sipa> you can do that using a P2P test too :)
980 2013-01-07 21:32:36 <grau> How do you know if the node replaced the previous version in its cache ?
981 2013-01-07 21:32:48 <sipa> by seeing whether it relayed it
982 2013-01-07 21:32:49 <gmaxwell> Basically an whitebox test should never replace a p2p test when a p2p test is possible. If you can do both great. If something is really not observable from p2p, great.
983 2013-01-07 21:33:16 <sipa> or relays something that depends on a former replaced transaction being accepted
984 2013-01-07 21:33:20 <grau> There could be other reasons for not relaying
985 2013-01-07 21:33:36 <sipa> yes, and mempool behaviour isn't technically part of the network rules
986 2013-01-07 21:34:06 <grau> e.g. I will not relay tx without fee
987 2013-01-07 21:34:06 <sipa> (you won't cause a fork by doing it differently)
988 2013-01-07 21:34:18 <sipa> indeed, policy decisions play a role there
989 2013-01-07 21:35:11 <gmaxwell> The things we urgently care about testing are the network rules. I'm happy if your software is good outside of the network rules, but that is your (and your user's concern). Conformance with the network rules, however, is everyone's concern.
990 2013-01-07 21:35:28 <grau> so you see there is a place for tests that use more than P2P. I agree that P2p tests are portable and preferred.
991 2013-01-07 21:36:19 <gmaxwell> yes, thats also why we have non p2p tests! there are many places for non-p2p tests, especially since only a small part of the system is related to the blockchain and p2p network.
992 2013-01-07 21:37:00 <grau> I will make my tester so you can run it without API with scenarios that do not require that.
993 2013-01-07 21:37:09 <sipa> ok, nice!
994 2013-01-07 21:37:19 <grau> One such scenario will be a capture of what the blocktester does
995 2013-01-07 21:37:36 <grau> but I will keep running the blocktester if there is a new version of it
996 2013-01-07 21:38:00 <sipa> great
997 2013-01-07 21:38:24 Cory has quit ()
998 2013-01-07 21:38:25 <grau> I hope that as you see my scenarios, you consider adding api to bitcoind so they can use them full
999 2013-01-07 21:38:38 <grau> and at some point you will press a newcomer to pass it
1000 2013-01-07 21:38:57 DBordello has joined
1001 2013-01-07 21:39:23 <gmaxwell> I expect it would often test features that an implementation may not have. The only mandatory features are the p2p ones, as you noteâ you don't have a wallet. A conformant implementation might be p2p only.
1002 2013-01-07 21:40:12 <grau> I will structure the scenarios such, that they test one or other aspect of the implementation
1003 2013-01-07 21:40:29 dan_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1004 2013-01-07 21:40:30 <grau> so you can pick those applicable and add API support to if needed
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1009 2013-01-07 21:45:29 <Diapolo> Can someone give me a testnet address please :)? I need just one to add it into the addressbook.
1010 2013-01-07 21:46:01 swulf--1 has joined
1011 2013-01-07 21:47:04 <gavinandresen> Diapolo: mfYEyfXvxhiRWyqmMUnVCTHrdjaCb5dvPn
1012 2013-01-07 21:47:24 <maaku> Trying to run PingService from latest bitcoinj, but exception is thrown: http://pastebin.com/65c1t8HY
1013 2013-01-07 21:47:25 <Diapolo> thanks Gavin
1014 2013-01-07 21:47:45 Cory has joined
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1017 2013-01-07 21:51:10 <grau> I figured what the blocktester really does
1018 2013-01-07 21:51:12 ciscoftw has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1019 2013-01-07 21:51:37 <grau> 1. It creates a complicated block scenario
1020 2013-01-07 21:51:47 <grau> 2. feeds it using P2P to bitcoind
1021 2013-01-07 21:52:00 <grau> 3. downloads the chain from bitcoind using P2P
1022 2013-01-07 21:52:14 <grau> 4. compares if blocks are what expected.
1023 2013-01-07 21:52:54 <grau> So its a pure blackbox, that is easy to replicate
1024 2013-01-07 21:53:22 <gmaxwell> Right. It also tests both postive and negative cases: things which are permitted and things which are forbidden, and it tests situations which span multiple blocks.
1025 2013-01-07 21:54:01 <sipa> grau: i think it is more valuable if you, instead of replicating it, try to test similar cases using different tests
1026 2013-01-07 21:54:22 <sipa> (well, that depends on the definition of replication, i suppose)
1027 2013-01-07 21:54:33 <sipa> i mean: not using the literally same blocks
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1029 2013-01-07 21:55:14 <grau> Using the same will be the first step. I will certainly go beyond that
1030 2013-01-07 21:55:52 <gmaxwell> The disadvantage there is that if you do only the same you may taint your preconcieved notions and be less likely to produce novel tests.
1031 2013-01-07 21:56:16 <grau> you expect novelty from me, that is new :)
1032 2013-01-07 21:56:53 <gmaxwell> I hope for novelty from everyone.
1033 2013-01-07 22:05:22 <grau> maaku: that rather looks like network error to access build descriptor files not an exception from a running bitcoinj.
1034 2013-01-07 22:06:48 <maaku> hrm. I found I was able to run the bitcoinj-tools.jar directly, and use that to accomplish what I wanted
1035 2013-01-07 22:07:35 <maaku> but the "java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: com.google.bitcoin.core.PeerGroup.start()Lcom/google/common/util/concurrent/ListenableFuture" is what threw me for a loop
1036 2013-01-07 22:07:57 <maaku> But I'm a C++/Python guy, so Java is new to me
1037 2013-01-07 22:08:24 <grau> Are you behind a firewall? It looks maven can not load build descriptors
1038 2013-01-07 22:11:57 <johzi> man, he hopes for novelty. that's great. i really wish to please him
1039 2013-01-07 22:12:43 <grau> maaku: I have to go. Anyway it looks a network error at build, not specific to bitcoinj but maven.
1040 2013-01-07 22:12:50 <sipa> grau: yesterday i got the impression that you wanted to replace everything, rather than using existing infrastructure for testing; i'm sorry if that caused you to think i don't want you to anything _beyond_ what already existed
1041 2013-01-07 22:12:51 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1042 2013-01-07 22:12:52 <maaku> grau: thank you for your help
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1046 2013-01-07 22:25:27 <MC1984> i formally request asylum from #bitcoin
1047 2013-01-07 22:25:40 <sipa> ?
1048 2013-01-07 22:26:15 <MC1984> i mentioned wikileaks, suddenly shitstorm and jews did 9/11 was an inside job, or something
1049 2013-01-07 22:26:43 <sipa> oh freenode #bitcoin, not lfnet :)
1050 2013-01-07 22:27:35 <Diapolo> Will CBitcoinAddress == CBitcoinAddress work?
1051 2013-01-07 22:28:00 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1052 2013-01-07 22:28:29 <sipa> yes
1053 2013-01-07 22:28:58 <sipa> it inherits operator== from CBase58Data
1054 2013-01-07 22:29:10 <Diapolo> sipa: good, thanks
1055 2013-01-07 22:30:52 ovidiusoft has quit (Quit: leaving)
1056 2013-01-07 22:34:41 <eb3kk> can anyone point me in the direction of work that has been done on relay fees?
1057 2013-01-07 22:37:26 Evilmax has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1062 2013-01-07 22:48:32 <MC1984> what is the best way of generating (and verifying) a paper wallet backup from a wallet.dat?
1063 2013-01-07 22:54:17 <maaku> pywallet
1064 2013-01-07 22:54:31 <sipa> don't
1065 2013-01-07 22:54:57 <sipa> (until we have deterministic wallets)
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1071 2013-01-07 23:16:57 <MC1984> sipa whats the problem?
1072 2013-01-07 23:17:13 <sipa> random change addresses being added
1073 2013-01-07 23:18:14 <MC1984> is that a problem for a savings wallet?
1074 2013-01-07 23:18:57 Cory has joined
1075 2013-01-07 23:19:00 <sipa> not really, but you have to be careful
1076 2013-01-07 23:20:52 <MC1984> i thought someone already did that HD wallet thing
1077 2013-01-07 23:21:02 <MC1984> got a nice ring to it too
1078 2013-01-07 23:21:12 Cory has quit (Client Quit)
1079 2013-01-07 23:21:30 <sipa> i have the derivation logic implemented, and so has etotheipi_ for Armory
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1086 2013-01-07 23:27:55 <sipa> i don't understand the explanation on their forum thread at all
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1091 2013-01-07 23:38:28 <zapsoda> Anyone know what it means if blockchain says "Uncaught exception 'Exception' with message 'Incorrect response id (request id: 1, response id: )'" _somtimes_ when i do $address = $bitcoin->getnewaddress(); As far as i can tell it random when it happens, Any ideas?
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