1 2013-01-09 00:05:11 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  2 2013-01-09 00:05:32 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  3 2013-01-09 00:06:03 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
  4 2013-01-09 00:06:06 copumpkin has joined
  5 2013-01-09 00:07:06 reizuki has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  6 2013-01-09 00:07:24 reizuki has joined
  7 2013-01-09 00:07:24 reizuki has quit (Changing host)
  8 2013-01-09 00:07:24 reizuki has joined
  9 2013-01-09 00:08:43 <etotheipi_> if I was to implement a JSON-RPC interface into Armory ,is there a reason not to use the bitcoin.conf file?  same username & password?
 10 2013-01-09 00:08:51 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 11 2013-01-09 00:09:22 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: none I know of
 12 2013-01-09 00:15:34 johzi has joined
 13 2013-01-09 00:16:39 agricocb has joined
 14 2013-01-09 00:16:45 Z0rZ0rZ0r has quit (Quit: Wheeeee)
 15 2013-01-09 00:17:25 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Quit: bitcoinbulletin)
 16 2013-01-09 00:21:31 zooko has joined
 17 2013-01-09 00:22:32 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 18 2013-01-09 00:22:54 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
 19 2013-01-09 00:27:16 bitcoinbulletin has joined
 20 2013-01-09 00:28:19 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 21 2013-01-09 00:38:12 Joric has quit ()
 22 2013-01-09 00:42:37 theorbtwo has joined
 23 2013-01-09 00:53:02 midnightmagic has joined
 24 2013-01-09 00:53:26 midnightmagic is now known as Guest56134
 25 2013-01-09 00:55:45 Guest56134 has quit (Changing host)
 26 2013-01-09 00:55:46 Guest56134 has joined
 27 2013-01-09 00:56:27 Skav has joined
 28 2013-01-09 00:58:12 Skav has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 29 2013-01-09 00:58:32 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 30 2013-01-09 00:58:39 MobPhone has joined
 31 2013-01-09 00:58:46 Guest56134 is now known as midnightmagic_
 32 2013-01-09 00:58:52 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 33 2013-01-09 00:59:29 <da2ce768> hey, the only way to get a new network rule for bitcoin, is to create a merged-mining block-chain, and notarize certan bitcoin transactions within it?
 34 2013-01-09 01:00:14 <da2ce768> then if you want to comply with this new network rule, you make your bitcoin tx, and then make a notarization in the merged-mining chain that checks for the aditional rules?
 35 2013-01-09 01:02:30 <da2ce768> Luke-Jr: ?
 36 2013-01-09 01:02:52 <Luke-Jr> huh?
 37 2013-01-09 01:05:04 <da2ce768> um, two messages above?
 38 2013-01-09 01:05:12 <Luke-Jr> I don't get it.
 39 2013-01-09 01:05:16 <gmaxwell> da2ce768: what are you talking about?
 40 2013-01-09 01:05:21 twixed has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 41 2013-01-09 01:07:17 <da2ce768> if I wanted to make a more-strict network enforeced rule for bitcoin.  The only way (other than a fork), would be to create a merged-mining block-chain that notarize certan bitcoin transactions that comply with the more strict rules?
 42 2013-01-09 01:07:54 <da2ce768> then you create the bitcoin transaction, then you list that tx-hash in the merged-mining blockchain.
 43 2013-01-09 01:08:06 <Luke-Jr> I still have no idea what you mean…
 44 2013-01-09 01:10:26 <da2ce768> say that I want a rule that says "only tx that contain the OP xyz in the from abc are accepted".  Of course, if you implemented that rule in Bitcoin, it would create a fork and it would cease to be Bitcoin.
 45 2013-01-09 01:11:44 <da2ce768> however if I merged-mined a blockchain that had that restriction, there could be a list of tx's that comply with that rule, and whenever sombody try's to notarize a tx that breaks that rule. the mm blockchain could reject it.
 46 2013-01-09 01:12:09 <Luke-Jr> and the MM blockchain would be useless…
 47 2013-01-09 01:12:24 <Luke-Jr> besides, the first solution is exactly what we did with P2SH
 48 2013-01-09 01:12:32 <Luke-Jr> and it's still Bitcoin
 49 2013-01-09 01:13:02 <da2ce768> except for people who want to know the subset of tx's that are both bitcoin AND comply with the extra rule.
 50 2013-01-09 01:20:01 Guest99025 has quit ()
 51 2013-01-09 01:22:00 maaku has joined
 52 2013-01-09 01:24:02 JZavala has joined
 53 2013-01-09 01:25:22 da2ce768 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 54 2013-01-09 01:28:35 midnightmagic_ is now known as midnightmagic
 55 2013-01-09 01:42:25 ForceMajeure has joined
 56 2013-01-09 01:47:47 Gladamas has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 90 seconds.)
 57 2013-01-09 01:48:27 Gladamas has joined
 58 2013-01-09 01:56:07 maaku has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 59 2013-01-09 02:00:19 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: that would be a totally broken way to go about it, and also unnecessary.
 60 2013-01-09 02:01:05 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: as soon as there was one violation in bitcoin it would slowly taint all the coins so that they were in violation of your rule.
 61 2013-01-09 02:01:24 <gmaxwell> (because they were descendants of your violated rule.
 62 2013-01-09 02:01:26 <gmaxwell> )
 63 2013-01-09 02:01:45 Gladamas_ has joined
 64 2013-01-09 02:01:46 <gmaxwell> And in any case, restrictions can be added to bitcoin, they just can't be removed.
 65 2013-01-09 02:01:58 Gladamas has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 66 2013-01-09 02:02:11 <gmaxwell> We have a whole set of NOP instructions in script as well as block and transaction versions precisely for the purpose.
 67 2013-01-09 02:03:03 <MobGod> can anyone answer a question about the android app (wallet)
 68 2013-01-09 02:03:34 <MobGod> can i add more than one wallet to the app so i can transfer coin's act… on the go
 69 2013-01-09 02:08:00 Insu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 70 2013-01-09 02:09:35 EPiSKiNG- has joined
 71 2013-01-09 02:24:21 B0g4r7 has joined
 72 2013-01-09 02:26:34 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 73 2013-01-09 02:28:58 JohnGalt2 has joined
 74 2013-01-09 02:31:49 JohnGalt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 75 2013-01-09 02:41:26 owowo is now known as DesertEagle50
 76 2013-01-09 02:51:28 Gladamas_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 77 2013-01-09 02:53:04 MC-Eeepc has joined
 78 2013-01-09 02:54:06 <zapsoda> Anyone used that JSONtoAmount function in PHP please msg me :)
 79 2013-01-09 02:55:21 <gmaxwell> I think you missed #bitcoin-mining and #bitcoin-otc  you might also want to ask in #hardware
 80 2013-01-09 02:55:40 <Luke-Jr> lol
 81 2013-01-09 02:56:03 valparaiso has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 82 2013-01-09 02:56:25 <upb> hahahaha
 83 2013-01-09 03:02:32 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 84 2013-01-09 03:06:22 <zapsoda> gmaxwell, I didnt miss OTC :p
 85 2013-01-09 03:07:10 <gmaxwell> Oh, and I suppose you got #hardware too?
 86 2013-01-09 03:07:14 theorbtwo has joined
 87 2013-01-09 03:08:16 <zapsoda> Ooops i missed them
 88 2013-01-09 03:13:25 Mobius_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 89 2013-01-09 03:14:38 Faradayy_ has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
 90 2013-01-09 03:15:39 swulf-- has joined
 91 2013-01-09 03:15:44 kurtns has joined
 92 2013-01-09 03:17:12 swulf--2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 93 2013-01-09 03:17:26 kurtns has left ()
 94 2013-01-09 03:21:10 TheEslbear has joined
 95 2013-01-09 03:22:24 MobiusL has joined
 96 2013-01-09 03:23:06 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 97 2013-01-09 03:24:56 Eslbaer has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 98 2013-01-09 03:27:43 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 99 2013-01-09 03:27:52 D34TH has quit (Quit: Leaving)
100 2013-01-09 03:29:04 MrTiggr has quit (Quit: bainow)
101 2013-01-09 03:34:44 egecko has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
102 2013-01-09 03:36:35 MobiusL has joined
103 2013-01-09 03:50:01 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
104 2013-01-09 03:52:26 johzi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
105 2013-01-09 03:52:59 fiesh has joined
106 2013-01-09 04:11:13 DesertEagle50 has quit (Quit: sayonara)
107 2013-01-09 04:11:28 maaku has joined
108 2013-01-09 04:18:56 Arnavion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
109 2013-01-09 04:19:03 swappermall has joined
110 2013-01-09 04:19:11 Arnavion has joined
111 2013-01-09 04:19:27 bitcoin_blocks is now known as BTCOxygen
112 2013-01-09 04:37:58 phma has joined
113 2013-01-09 04:43:38 yellowhat has joined
114 2013-01-09 04:45:03 freakazoid has joined
115 2013-01-09 04:48:42 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
116 2013-01-09 04:50:24 yellowhat has quit (Quit: yellowhat)
117 2013-01-09 04:51:24 MrTiggr has joined
118 2013-01-09 04:57:55 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
119 2013-01-09 04:58:50 Cory has joined
120 2013-01-09 04:59:00 grau has joined
121 2013-01-09 04:59:22 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
122 2013-01-09 05:12:49 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
123 2013-01-09 05:12:58 [7] has joined
124 2013-01-09 05:17:38 B0g4r7__ has joined
125 2013-01-09 05:21:28 <zapsoda> Does this look good for converting the satoshi into BTC? http://pastebin.com/ebQ2TEZC
126 2013-01-09 05:21:28 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
127 2013-01-09 05:21:29 B0g4r7__ is now known as B0g4r7
128 2013-01-09 05:23:14 MrTiggr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
129 2013-01-09 05:31:43 coblee has quit (Quit: coblee)
130 2013-01-09 05:36:47 impulse has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
131 2013-01-09 05:37:10 impulse has joined
132 2013-01-09 05:52:24 swappermall_ has joined
133 2013-01-09 05:57:52 <vazakl> http://csr.bu.edu/sns/
134 2013-01-09 06:00:02 Skav has joined
135 2013-01-09 06:00:51 <gmaxwell> vazakl: the word 'attack' doesn't show up in their paper, not a great sign.
136 2013-01-09 06:01:19 <zapsoda> Does this look good for converting the satoshi into BTC? http://pastebin.com/ebQ2TEZC
137 2013-01-09 06:02:55 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
138 2013-01-09 06:03:07 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
139 2013-01-09 06:10:04 coblee has joined
140 2013-01-09 06:11:26 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
141 2013-01-09 06:11:31 JohnGalt2 is now known as JohnGalt
142 2013-01-09 06:13:43 skeledrew has joined
143 2013-01-09 06:14:27 da2ce726 has joined
144 2013-01-09 06:15:18 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
145 2013-01-09 06:16:09 maaku has joined
146 2013-01-09 06:16:27 maaku has quit (Client Quit)
147 2013-01-09 06:21:42 swappermall_ has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158])
148 2013-01-09 06:22:46 maaku has joined
149 2013-01-09 06:28:40 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
150 2013-01-09 06:36:20 BlackPrapor has joined
151 2013-01-09 06:38:23 <vazakl> sup
152 2013-01-09 06:39:47 Garr255 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
153 2013-01-09 06:40:11 Garr255 has joined
154 2013-01-09 06:42:23 <vazakl> oops wrong window
155 2013-01-09 06:43:08 RazielZ has joined
156 2013-01-09 06:45:07 swappermall has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
157 2013-01-09 06:52:07 Garr255_ has joined
158 2013-01-09 06:52:07 Garr255_ has quit (Changing host)
159 2013-01-09 06:52:07 Garr255_ has joined
160 2013-01-09 06:54:18 Garr255_ has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
161 2013-01-09 06:54:48 Garr255 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
162 2013-01-09 06:54:56 Garr255_ has joined
163 2013-01-09 06:56:50 BlackPrapor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
164 2013-01-09 06:57:03 Garr255_ has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
165 2013-01-09 06:57:38 Garr255_ has joined
166 2013-01-09 06:58:31 Garr255_ is now known as Garr255
167 2013-01-09 06:58:43 Garr255 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
168 2013-01-09 06:59:58 BlackPrapor has joined
169 2013-01-09 07:05:17 wumpus has quit (No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
170 2013-01-09 17:11:55 wumpus has joined
171 2013-01-09 17:15:58 m00p has joined
172 2013-01-09 17:18:03 B0g4r7__ has joined
173 2013-01-09 17:19:19 gribble has joined
174 2013-01-09 17:19:34 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
175 2013-01-09 17:19:51 <nanotube> gavinandresen: looks like gsoc has not yet even been announced for 2013. so i'll try to remember to keep my eye out for this year's announcement.
176 2013-01-09 17:20:45 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
177 2013-01-09 17:20:52 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
178 2013-01-09 17:21:41 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
179 2013-01-09 17:21:41 B0g4r7__ is now known as B0g4r7
180 2013-01-09 17:22:17 kicek has joined
181 2013-01-09 17:30:54 kicek is now known as _kicek
182 2013-01-09 17:34:52 <gmaxwell> nanotube: if people want to make it successful, I suggest they start soon making a list of candidate applications and _qualification_ tasks. The ffmpeg/vlc/libav communities have had good success with qualification tasks, and I think we should probably use them too.
183 2013-01-09 17:35:47 <gmaxwell> The idea is that before accepting a student (I initially typoed 'stupid') you make them do some small task that shows that they're (1) willing to do work, (2) can program and build the relevant software. This seems to have a surprisingly big effect.
184 2013-01-09 17:36:26 <gmaxwell> Otherwise what you do is get a lot of people who sign up and vanish, or sign up and just get the first payment and vanish. (Something I've expirenced with xiph and wikimedia projects)
185 2013-01-09 17:39:45 <gmaxwell> Having a bunch of stuff well setup is critical to getting accepted by google too.
186 2013-01-09 17:40:00 MC-Eeepc has joined
187 2013-01-09 17:40:43 <MC-Eeepc> good evening
188 2013-01-09 17:41:10 <helo> were there any bitcoin gsoc projects last year?
189 2013-01-09 17:41:13 <nanotube> gmaxwell: ah thanks for sharing your experience. i don't suppose you'd be willing to rough some stuff in? i don't really know anything about this, neither from the 'what gsoc-sized tasks need to be done for bitcoin' nor 'how to make them look good for google' ...
190 2013-01-09 17:41:17 <nanotube> helo: no
191 2013-01-09 17:41:53 <helo> will the foundation be paying the bounties?
192 2013-01-09 17:42:51 <gmaxwell> nanotube: I'm a bit cycle limited, but I'll contribute to roughing stuff in if some other people want to. I can also throw up some pointers to approches which I've seen which have been successful.
193 2013-01-09 17:42:52 <nanotube> dunno if any have been claimed
194 2013-01-09 17:42:59 ten8nine has joined
195 2013-01-09 17:49:51 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
196 2013-01-09 17:51:36 <BlueMatt> sipa: ping
197 2013-01-09 17:52:13 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: We might want to mediate on https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security_Severity_Ratings some... in particular, Mozilla doesn't consider "malicious content can use up all your memory" to be vulnerabilities.  Our situation is somewhat different, but it might give some more food for how we think about some of that DoS stuff.
198 2013-01-09 17:53:57 TheEslbear has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
199 2013-01-09 17:58:07 Eslbaer has joined
200 2013-01-09 17:59:36 <helo> we want the client to run all the time while using convenient amounts of resources
201 2013-01-09 18:00:19 ten8nine has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
202 2013-01-09 18:01:57 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
203 2013-01-09 18:02:02 <gmaxwell> helo: sure. But we also don't want to send out OMG UPGRADE NOW FEAR FEAR FEAR for issues where an attacker can connect to you and slow down your node... simply because such attacks can't be prevented no matter what we do.
204 2013-01-09 18:02:14 <gmaxwell> (an attacker could always exahaust your network pipe)
205 2013-01-09 18:02:40 <gmaxwell> I can look at things and say "this isn't worth an alert" but I dunno how to articulate the exact criteria.
206 2013-01-09 18:02:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, eating a ton of memory can be worse than that ;)
207 2013-01-09 18:03:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: Linux systems crawl - for ALL apps - when swap is heavily used
208 2013-01-09 18:03:10 MobiusL has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
209 2013-01-09 18:03:14 nouitfvf has joined
210 2013-01-09 18:03:28 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Yea, well as I said, I don't know the exact criteria. Firefox doesn't consider using a ton of memory to be a sec-crit.
211 2013-01-09 18:03:38 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: Firefox isn't a p2p application
212 2013-01-09 18:03:49 <Luke-Jr> someone random can't just connect to Firefox and feed it data
213 2013-01-09 18:03:50 <Luke-Jr> :P
214 2013-01-09 18:04:07 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: p2p isn't the criteria, but perhaps inbound is.
215 2013-01-09 18:04:34 <gmaxwell> (and the browsers are all becoming p2p to a degree with webrtc)
216 2013-01-09 18:04:57 <Luke-Jr> O.o
217 2013-01-09 18:05:01 MobiusL has joined
218 2013-01-09 18:05:20 <gmaxwell> Perhaps for non-listening nodes we should remember who we were connected to last, and if we crash, we blacklist them for 24 hours. Then run with ulimits and auto restart.
219 2013-01-09 18:05:45 <gmaxwell> Then our behavior starts becoming more like a web browser and resource exaustion attacks cause less harm.
220 2013-01-09 18:06:53 ThomasV has joined
221 2013-01-09 18:07:26 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: webrtc gives browsers a p2p SCTP in DTLS in UDP data path, with STUN/TURN firewall hole punching and ICE so that you can only send (lots of) packets to peers that consent to connct with you.  This will let them do all kinds of realtime peer to peer communication including chat and voice.
222 2013-01-09 18:07:31 <gavinandresen> the best fix would be to limit the size of the memory pool, and evict transactions based on the same default criteria for deciding what transactions go into a block.
223 2013-01-09 18:08:12 <gavinandresen> (best fix for this particular case... in general, limiting the size of your in-memory data structures is something we should continue doing)
224 2013-01-09 18:08:17 rdymac has joined
225 2013-01-09 18:08:34 TD has joined
226 2013-01-09 18:08:35 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yea, I'm thinking more generally than this specific concern, since we keep finding peer resource exhastion attacks and it seems like we'll keep doing that. Culling the memory pool has some crappy implications because it'll create orphans.
227 2013-01-09 18:08:44 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: even that, probably needs some thought - sounds liable to lose transactions entirely too easily
228 2013-01-09 18:08:57 <gavinandresen> if they get lost they'll get re-sent.
229 2013-01-09 18:09:12 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I'd also proposed (in PM) to sipa that we add a network rule: the maximum size of a transaction plus its input txouts is the maximum block size.
230 2013-01-09 18:09:42 Hashdog has joined
231 2013-01-09 18:10:10 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: that could easily be an IsStandard rule.
232 2013-01-09 18:10:59 <gmaxwell> Yep. though if it's not a network rule a block violating it could still blow up a node. IsStandard would be a first step of course.
233 2013-01-09 18:12:11 Hashdog has left ()
234 2013-01-09 18:17:49 <gmaxwell> An IsStandard would at least prevent you from using high memory peers as bloat-transaction force multipliers.
235 2013-01-09 18:18:51 maaku has joined
236 2013-01-09 18:23:54 valparaiso_ has joined
237 2013-01-09 18:25:08 valparaiso has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
238 2013-01-09 18:25:08 valparaiso_ is now known as valparaiso
239 2013-01-09 18:25:21 freakazoid has joined
240 2013-01-09 18:30:27 Impaler has joined
241 2013-01-09 18:31:41 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
242 2013-01-09 18:36:32 <sipa> BlueMatt: pang
243 2013-01-09 18:39:36 <jgarzik> pung
244 2013-01-09 18:42:41 <BlueMatt> sipa: nvm, my question was pre-answered in a comment that i somehow missed....
245 2013-01-09 18:42:52 <sipa> eh, ok?
246 2013-01-09 18:44:56 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
247 2013-01-09 18:50:37 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
248 2013-01-09 18:51:22 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
249 2013-01-09 18:52:28 jdnavarro has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
250 2013-01-09 18:57:08 Someguy123 has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
251 2013-01-09 18:57:38 ovidiusoft has quit (Quit: leaving)
252 2013-01-09 18:58:03 CodesInChaos has joined
253 2013-01-09 18:59:16 twixed has joined
254 2013-01-09 19:01:15 grau has joined
255 2013-01-09 19:02:44 pierre` has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
256 2013-01-09 19:03:08 Someguy1234 has joined
257 2013-01-09 19:03:50 pierre` has joined
258 2013-01-09 19:05:44 Someguy1234 is now known as Someguy123
259 2013-01-09 19:13:48 EPiSKiNG- has quit ()
260 2013-01-09 19:21:26 pierre` has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
261 2013-01-09 19:25:39 IniX has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
262 2013-01-09 19:27:52 pierre` has joined
263 2013-01-09 19:28:14 Impaler_ has joined
264 2013-01-09 19:30:46 m00p has quit (Quit: Leaving)
265 2013-01-09 19:31:12 TD has joined
266 2013-01-09 19:31:41 Impaler has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
267 2013-01-09 19:31:43 D34TH has joined
268 2013-01-09 19:31:57 Impaler_ is now known as Impaler
269 2013-01-09 19:34:44 <TD> BlueMatt: thanks
270 2013-01-09 19:34:50 <TD> will try the latest code tonight
271 2013-01-09 19:41:34 jdnavarro has joined
272 2013-01-09 19:43:11 ThomasV has joined
273 2013-01-09 19:45:18 ovidiusoft has joined
274 2013-01-09 19:47:06 Gabit has joined
275 2013-01-09 19:48:48 Gabit has quit (Client Quit)
276 2013-01-09 19:55:33 denisx has joined
277 2013-01-09 19:56:01 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
278 2013-01-09 19:56:29 one_zero has joined
279 2013-01-09 20:00:45 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
280 2013-01-09 20:05:00 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
281 2013-01-09 20:13:05 sroecker has joined
282 2013-01-09 20:15:56 TD has joined
283 2013-01-09 20:36:04 Diapolo has joined
284 2013-01-09 20:36:07 sroecker_ has joined
285 2013-01-09 20:38:12 Turingi has joined
286 2013-01-09 20:39:47 sroecker has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
287 2013-01-09 20:48:19 <BlueMatt> TD: I believe the only thing left i want to do is rework PeerGroup api stuff
288 2013-01-09 20:48:27 <BlueMatt> well, plus the new update flag
289 2013-01-09 20:49:24 <sipa> BlueMatt: how is the flag encoded?
290 2013-01-09 20:50:08 <BlueMatt> i would think throw it as a boolean in the bloom filter
291 2013-01-09 20:50:11 <BlueMatt> nFlags or something
292 2013-01-09 20:50:31 <BlueMatt> maybe just byteFlags
293 2013-01-09 20:51:00 <TD> sure
294 2013-01-09 20:51:09 <TD> BlueMatt: what api changes?
295 2013-01-09 20:51:20 pusle has joined
296 2013-01-09 20:51:20 <sipa> BlueMatt: sounds good
297 2013-01-09 20:51:54 <BlueMatt> TD: nothing, the serialized form of BloomFilter changes
298 2013-01-09 20:52:00 <BlueMatt> TD: oh, you mean PeerGroup
299 2013-01-09 20:52:02 <TD> yeah
300 2013-01-09 20:52:15 <BlueMatt> TD: I meant the changes to how to tell PeerGroup what fp rate to use
301 2013-01-09 20:52:21 <BlueMatt> (which needs tweaked with the new flag anyway)
302 2013-01-09 20:53:03 <TD> ah yes
303 2013-01-09 20:53:04 <TD> got it
304 2013-01-09 20:53:44 porquilho has quit ()
305 2013-01-09 20:53:56 <Turingi> what are alternatives to proof-of-work in a bitcoin-like system?
306 2013-01-09 20:54:44 ten8nine has joined
307 2013-01-09 20:59:03 <gmaxwell> Turingi: there have basically been none suggested which are not strawman weak. The alternatives people suggest all suffer the common failing that if you don't expend something scarce when trying to produce a block then there is no system incentive to not concurrently attempt to be dishonest.
308 2013-01-09 20:59:50 BCBot2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
309 2013-01-09 21:00:20 Insu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
310 2013-01-09 21:00:26 reizuki__ has joined
311 2013-01-09 21:00:37 DaQatz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
312 2013-01-09 21:01:26 <TD> Turingi: eg, proof of stake
313 2013-01-09 21:02:00 <gmaxwell> (As amiller poetically said, 'the problem with proof of stake is that there is nothing at stake')
314 2013-01-09 21:03:59 BCBot2 has joined
315 2013-01-09 21:04:46 Guest99025 has joined
316 2013-01-09 21:04:49 Guest99025 is now known as StarenseN
317 2013-01-09 21:05:20 StarenseN is now known as Guest39963
318 2013-01-09 21:05:28 Guest39963 has quit (Client Quit)
319 2013-01-09 21:05:34 <gmaxwell> I suppose one alternative would be to 'simply' identify all the participants, be careful not to allow any sibyls, and then let each participant produce blocks in turn... and then you can consider your transaction irreversable once half the participants have produced blocks. Tada.
320 2013-01-09 21:06:16 St4renseN has joined
321 2013-01-09 21:06:44 ten8nine has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
322 2013-01-09 21:06:46 <TD> Turingi: most research prior to bitcoin focused on the idea of systems in which privacy was guaranteed unless you double spent, the act of double spending would reveal your identity to the world
323 2013-01-09 21:07:07 <Turingi> TD: identity-based systems?
324 2013-01-09 21:07:13 <TD> Turingi: it obviously requires all participants to be vetted before joining. after that you have bitcoin-ish privacy guarantees and your identity is the "stake". the problem being, it doesn't prevent double spending. it just punishes it.
325 2013-01-09 21:07:16 <sipa> (and those are centralized)
326 2013-01-09 21:07:41 BCBot2` has joined
327 2013-01-09 21:07:48 <Turingi> I was thinking that given public availability of transactions, bitcoin may be acceptable to tax authorities
328 2013-01-09 21:08:06 <Turingi> since any coins you spend are traceable to some addresses
329 2013-01-09 21:08:29 <TD> by itself, obviously that's not enough
330 2013-01-09 21:08:35 <TD> because addresses aren't traceable to anything
331 2013-01-09 21:08:37 <Turingi> and whenever you try to exchange it for cash, or advertise one of your addresses
332 2013-01-09 21:08:41 <Turingi> you are traceable
333 2013-01-09 21:08:44 <TD> but you can build tax systems on top of bitcoin with some extensions
334 2013-01-09 21:09:18 <Turingi> people did some data mining with publicly available addresses (say on the bitcoin forum)
335 2013-01-09 21:09:21 <gmaxwell> Turingi: in the US the tax authorities have pretty much no care about serialized goods or the like. So I suspect that you're over thinking it.
336 2013-01-09 21:09:46 <Turingi> gmaxwell: serialized goods?
337 2013-01-09 21:09:49 <TD> yeah but if you're trying to dodge tax you obviously won't advertise your address
338 2013-01-09 21:10:35 <gmaxwell> (like most law enforcement they're generally to make it reactive instead of proactive and just make the penalties high enough that even with low odds of catching someone its still unwise to do)
339 2013-01-09 21:10:44 swappermall has joined
340 2013-01-09 21:11:26 <TD> i think you could probably build a very accurate and efficient tax system on top of bitcoin, if one was so inclined
341 2013-01-09 21:11:27 St4renseN has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
342 2013-01-09 21:11:29 Guest47551 is now known as zapsoda
343 2013-01-09 21:12:11 <gmaxwell> Turingi: there is no pressure from tax authorities, generally, to register all transactions or to track all goods. They don't need to. They capture some information where it can be captured non-invasively, but its not a primary enforcement mechanism... presumably because its too easily evaded without a totalitarian state.
344 2013-01-09 21:12:45 BCBot2_ has joined
345 2013-01-09 21:12:45 St4renseN has joined
346 2013-01-09 21:12:52 <Turingi> most transactions in the west are via banks and all that is transparent to authorities
347 2013-01-09 21:12:52 <gmaxwell> TD: I'm pretty skeptical, but I think we're getting pretty far afield of technology there.
348 2013-01-09 21:13:08 <TD> Turingi: not quite as simple as it looks actually
349 2013-01-09 21:13:19 <Turingi> the point being, bitcoin is not necessarily an enemy of the financial system
350 2013-01-09 21:13:41 <TD> it's a different financial system, that's all. i don't think it needs to be anyone/anythings enemy
351 2013-01-09 21:13:49 <gmaxwell> Turingi: not necessarily??  ... I think people who suggest that it is are confused in any case!
352 2013-01-09 21:14:16 <sipa> well it competes with certain parts of the existing financial system
353 2013-01-09 21:14:31 <sipa> but traditionally we consider competition a good thing :)
354 2013-01-09 21:14:49 <gmaxwell> It's just an alternative. Alternatives make the world richer and more adaptive.
355 2013-01-09 21:14:53 <gmaxwell> Right.
356 2013-01-09 21:15:09 <gmaxwell> (and currently, an almost irrelevantly obsecure alternative)
357 2013-01-09 21:15:18 <ThomasV> "we come in peace"
358 2013-01-09 21:15:29 swappermall has quit (Client Quit)
359 2013-01-09 21:15:35 <ThomasV> "and we will soon replace you"
360 2013-01-09 21:16:15 <TD> hah
361 2013-01-09 21:16:21 <TD> you mean just like the email replaced post
362 2013-01-09 21:16:29 <TD> or the web replaced newspapers ....
363 2013-01-09 21:16:45 <sipa> and television killed cinema
364 2013-01-09 21:16:47 sroecker_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
365 2013-01-09 21:16:49 <gmaxwell> hey, the internal combustion engine did replace horses!
366 2013-01-09 21:17:00 <ThomasV> I mean, some people will necessarily feel threatened
367 2013-01-09 21:17:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: as far as i can tell, horses are still alive!
368 2013-01-09 21:17:32 <ThomasV> no, there are much less horses today
369 2013-01-09 21:17:53 <helo> does the software include any disclaimer/waiver of liability for anything bad that might result from its use?
370 2013-01-09 21:18:09 <sipa> helo: good question
371 2013-01-09 21:18:17 <ThomasV> helo: the licence I guess
372 2013-01-09 21:18:35 owowo has joined
373 2013-01-09 21:18:41 <freewil> yeah the MIT license includes that
374 2013-01-09 21:18:52 <gmaxwell> sipa: yes, though at a small fraction of their peak population (esp corrected to the human population), we don't use them in industry anymore but they were used by the millions in industry in 1900.
375 2013-01-09 21:19:09 <sipa> right, sure
376 2013-01-09 21:19:09 BCBot2_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
377 2013-01-09 21:19:28 BCBot2` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
378 2013-01-09 21:19:33 <gmaxwell> Horses are today to their peak utilization as bitcoin is to the global economy.  Some people use horses for fun now. :P
379 2013-01-09 21:19:49 BCBot2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
380 2013-01-09 21:20:07 <ThomasV> oh, we have less bayonets too :)
381 2013-01-09 21:20:36 <gmaxwell> In any case, even in a future where bitcoin is wildly successful it will almost certantly be just one instrument of many.
382 2013-01-09 21:20:52 <ThomasV> although the people who use bayonets for fun must be quite rare
383 2013-01-09 21:21:09 <gmaxwell> And the existing winners can still be winners in that grand bitcoin future. Could you imagine if visa decided to get into the bitcoin businss today? They'd own it.
384 2013-01-09 21:21:16 <gmaxwell> Mtgox? lol.
385 2013-01-09 21:22:01 MobPhone has quit (Quit: -a-)
386 2013-01-09 21:23:51 <freewil> to be fair a lot of that is because of regulatory capture
387 2013-01-09 21:24:32 BCBot2 has joined
388 2013-01-09 21:24:40 BCBot2` has joined
389 2013-01-09 21:24:46 BCBot2_ has joined
390 2013-01-09 21:25:18 BCB1t2 has joined
391 2013-01-09 21:25:40 BCBot1 has joined
392 2013-01-09 21:27:36 BCB0t2 has joined
393 2013-01-09 21:29:11 johzi has joined
394 2013-01-09 21:29:40 Impaler_ has joined
395 2013-01-09 21:31:33 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
396 2013-01-09 21:32:38 Impaler has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
397 2013-01-09 21:32:40 B6Bot2 has joined
398 2013-01-09 21:32:43 Impaler_ is now known as Impaler
399 2013-01-09 21:37:36 BCBo22 has joined
400 2013-01-09 21:38:47 valparaiso has quit (Quit: valparaiso)
401 2013-01-09 21:42:38 * helo negates all claims in the license disclaimer, and uses it in his infinite loop brainfuck program
402 2013-01-09 21:42:42 B5Bot2 has joined
403 2013-01-09 21:43:01 grau has joined
404 2013-01-09 21:46:08 DaQatz has joined
405 2013-01-09 21:46:08 pusle has quit ()
406 2013-01-09 21:46:59 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
407 2013-01-09 21:47:39 B1Bot2 has joined
408 2013-01-09 21:48:25 xorgate has quit (Quit: Take it easy)
409 2013-01-09 21:48:36 ten8nine has joined
410 2013-01-09 21:48:52 ten8nine has quit (Client Quit)
411 2013-01-09 21:52:00 xorgate has joined
412 2013-01-09 21:52:20 Diapolo has left ()
413 2013-01-09 21:52:40 BCBot8 has joined
414 2013-01-09 21:57:36 BC7ot2 has joined
415 2013-01-09 21:59:39 rng29a has joined
416 2013-01-09 22:02:40 BCBo12 has joined
417 2013-01-09 22:02:40 DamascusVG has joined
418 2013-01-09 22:02:41 DamascusVG has quit (Changing host)
419 2013-01-09 22:02:41 DamascusVG has joined
420 2013-01-09 22:07:38 BCBot5 has joined
421 2013-01-09 22:12:39 BCB2t2 has joined
422 2013-01-09 22:15:06 da2ce704 has joined
423 2013-01-09 22:16:48 <grau> what was the longest time span without a block you recall ?
424 2013-01-09 22:17:40 BC6ot2 has joined
425 2013-01-09 22:21:57 <sipa> grau: before the difficulty increased for the first time, probably days (though i wasn't around to remember that)
426 2013-01-09 22:22:38 BC2ot2 has joined
427 2013-01-09 22:23:05 <sipa> there were 4 blocks that took more than a day, the last one being 16564
428 2013-01-09 22:23:26 <grau> i am not regularly following just stumbled upon as I checked my server that there was not block since over an hour and am curious how often this happen, statistics or probability calculations somewhere ?
429 2013-01-09 22:23:38 <gmaxwell> In modern times people have started to howl at 2 hours— I'd try grepping my logs, but sometimes people howl about >2 hours when really they're looking a blockchain.info and blockchain.info is stuck.
430 2013-01-09 22:23:42 <sipa> ;;bc,tblb 2h
431 2013-01-09 22:23:44 <gribble> 1 year, 39 weeks, 5 days, 2 hours, 59 minutes, and 44 seconds
432 2013-01-09 22:24:05 <sipa> grau: ^ we expect a block that takes >2h once that often
433 2013-01-09 22:24:47 <sipa> 155290 took over 3h
434 2013-01-09 22:25:13 <gmaxwell> sipa: assuming the times on the blocks are right...
435 2013-01-09 22:25:15 <grau> makes weak case for point of sales :(
436 2013-01-09 22:25:29 <gmaxwell> (I know for example, luke has at least once produced a block awful close to two hours in the future.)
437 2013-01-09 22:25:30 <sipa> grau: point of sale shouldn't depend on block confirmations
438 2013-01-09 22:25:42 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah
439 2013-01-09 22:25:58 <TD> 8 minutes 20 seconds to download all chain headers. sigh. need to implement partial chains and starting from checkpoints.
440 2013-01-09 22:26:43 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: didn't you have some insanly fast figures to pull all the headers?
441 2013-01-09 22:26:53 <MC-Eeepc> checkpoints suck
442 2013-01-09 22:27:19 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: you can always start from a checkpoint and pull the rest in the background. e.g. make it soft.
443 2013-01-09 22:27:22 <sipa> ;;bc,tblb 1h26m
444 2013-01-09 22:27:23 <gribble> Error: '1h26m' is not a valid argument.
445 2013-01-09 22:27:25 <sipa> ;;bc,tblb 1h 26m
446 2013-01-09 22:27:26 <gribble> 3 weeks, 4 days, 13 hours, 27 minutes, and 3 seconds
447 2013-01-09 22:27:36 <TD> well, 8m was off some random network peer
448 2013-01-09 22:27:41 <TD> i'm sure it's less if i pull from localhost
449 2013-01-09 22:27:43 <MC-Eeepc> would suck less
450 2013-01-09 22:27:43 B4Bot2 has joined
451 2013-01-09 22:28:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: can headers requests be satisfied entirely out of the index in ultraprune?
452 2013-01-09 22:28:22 <MC-Eeepc> ever since i learned about checkpoints though it always seemed like cheating
453 2013-01-09 22:28:26 <sipa> gmaxwell: out of RAM, even
454 2013-01-09 22:28:33 <TD> the code assumes all headers are in a hashmap
455 2013-01-09 22:28:48 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: they are fast; no good numbers though
456 2013-01-09 22:28:52 <jgarzik> out of RAM, as sipa notes
457 2013-01-09 22:28:54 <gmaxwell> dur.
458 2013-01-09 22:29:08 <sipa> well, i should say: out of main memory
459 2013-01-09 22:29:15 <grau> TD: try being eager. My node potentially uses all pers to download in parallel
460 2013-01-09 22:29:27 <sipa> the fact that it is backed by physical RAM pages isn't guaranteed :)
461 2013-01-09 22:29:41 <gmaxwell> yea yea, blonde moment.
462 2013-01-09 22:29:42 valparaiso has joined
463 2013-01-09 22:29:56 <TD> well, you can download in parallel but you still have to connect and verify serially
464 2013-01-09 22:30:06 <TD> the real solution is to not sync from the genesis block. it doesn't scale.
465 2013-01-09 22:30:06 <gmaxwell> dunno why some peer would be so slow.
466 2013-01-09 22:30:25 <grau> but chain heads only validate POW thats fast
467 2013-01-09 22:30:52 <jgarzik> 'getheaders' is nice, too, because the answer comes in a large message, rather than a bunch of messages with no terminator
468 2013-01-09 22:30:55 <gmaxwell> TD: it's 40 megabytes for 10 years of headers. "does not scale" .. well actually it's scales perfectly linearly with time.
469 2013-01-09 22:31:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: but but... 40 megabytes is the size of my first hard drive!
470 2013-01-09 22:31:26 <TD> that's what i mean
471 2013-01-09 22:31:39 <jgarzik> a Lego Mindstorms v3 only has 16MB RAM
472 2013-01-09 22:31:39 ovidiusoft has quit (Quit: leaving)
473 2013-01-09 22:32:01 <sipa> TD: there are things is bitcoin that scale much worse :)
474 2013-01-09 22:32:16 <TD> grau: you have to commit them to disk as well
475 2013-01-09 22:32:18 <gmaxwell> Not that pulling from a checkpoint is objectionable, but please don't exaggerate it. I predict there will be no point in which the headers grows slower than your device ram, storage, or operating system size. :P
476 2013-01-09 22:32:29 <TD> anyway, i haven't profiled. it's not a big deal.
477 2013-01-09 22:32:39 BCBo82 has joined
478 2013-01-09 22:32:50 <sipa> the reference client still starts up in seconds
479 2013-01-09 22:32:51 <gmaxwell> er s/slower/faster/ dunno why I get the sign of these things wrong.
480 2013-01-09 22:33:00 <sipa> and it validates PoW of the entire chain at startup
481 2013-01-09 22:33:26 OneFixt_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
482 2013-01-09 22:33:39 <grau> writing to disk is async you do not realy care
483 2013-01-09 22:33:54 <grau> at download
484 2013-01-09 22:34:01 <sipa> you can't do it entirely async if you want consistency guarantees
485 2013-01-09 22:34:12 <sipa> but for a few megabytes, nobody cares :)
486 2013-01-09 22:34:29 <gmaxwell> TD: I mean my point is that because it is linear with respect to time, the cost releative to avilable resources should be shrinking. This is good scalablity.
487 2013-01-09 22:34:46 * jgarzik was thinking about a non-storing mode of brd ("block relay daemon", in picocoin.git, uses libccoin) that downloads 100% of headers over network at startup
488 2013-01-09 22:34:47 <grau> I store the chain I download with leveld that writes asyn, I use the batch func of it to garantee its atomic
489 2013-01-09 22:35:03 <grau> if I loose a full block I do not care download again
490 2013-01-09 22:35:23 <sipa> grau: right, if that is your only storage you're fine
491 2013-01-09 22:35:32 <grau> it is
492 2013-01-09 22:35:45 <sipa> you store block data also in leveldb?
493 2013-01-09 22:35:51 <sipa> the actual transactions, i mean
494 2013-01-09 22:36:01 <grau> everithyng
495 2013-01-09 22:36:15 <grau> everything i mean
496 2013-01-09 22:36:22 <sipa> hmm, ok
497 2013-01-09 22:36:34 <grau> its convinient and fast
498 2013-01-09 22:36:36 <sipa> i experimented with that (in BDB, though...) and it was extremely slow
499 2013-01-09 22:36:45 <sipa> it sure is convenient
500 2013-01-09 22:37:15 <jgarzik> leveldb definitely beats BDB if build up ~200k+ of atomic data, to be written in one batch
501 2013-01-09 22:37:33 <grau> I use the wire format as data and the hash extended with type as key
502 2013-01-09 22:37:35 <jgarzik> *if you
503 2013-01-09 22:37:36 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: an intresting variation would be for BRD to only fetch headers for the first block it gets given from the network. "Oh, you're gonna give me a block? fine. Prove it connects"
504 2013-01-09 22:37:43 BCB6t2 has joined
505 2013-01-09 22:38:42 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: well, that would require an interesting variation on 'getheaders' to provide reverse header order, right?
506 2013-01-09 22:38:57 andytoshi has joined
507 2013-01-09 22:39:30 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: you can do it forward too. if prev is unknown you getheaders from start on that node.
508 2013-01-09 22:39:46 <gmaxwell> if prev is known you're done.
509 2013-01-09 22:40:35 <jgarzik> sure you get forward, if you start from genesis, agreed :)
510 2013-01-09 22:41:10 <grau> jgarzik: Thats how I download from multimple peers if previous known store if not queue until it becomes known
511 2013-01-09 22:41:28 <grau> it coms random and gets sorted by processing
512 2013-01-09 22:42:00 <jgarzik> grau: do you store block (on-wire, raw format) separate from internally-generate block metadata, inside leveldb?
513 2013-01-09 22:42:06 <grau> having the right order just shortens the queue but is not prerequisite
514 2013-01-09 22:42:08 <jgarzik> *internally-generated
515 2013-01-09 22:42:10 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
516 2013-01-09 22:42:41 BCBot9 has joined
517 2013-01-09 22:43:11 <grau> The store is an "enriched" raw format so it has extra information I need for queries
518 2013-01-09 22:43:15 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: any case, the idea being that someone giving you orphan blocks couldn't mak you go bother your other peers trying to connect them.
519 2013-01-09 22:43:56 <jgarzik> hmmm, something to think about
520 2013-01-09 22:44:21 <grau> It is also partially normalized e.g. block header and tx are not continous in key space
521 2013-01-09 22:45:24 <sipa> how large is a fully synced 0.7.2 datadir nowadays?
522 2013-01-09 22:46:21 <sipa> grau: so for a block you store just txids, and then the data for those txids separately?
523 2013-01-09 22:46:37 <jgarzik> BDB 0.7.2 sans blk000?.dat was over 1g last I saw
524 2013-01-09 22:46:40 <jgarzik> months ago
525 2013-01-09 22:46:43 <grau> Yes the block only refers to tx hashes
526 2013-01-09 22:46:47 <sipa> i mean everything included
527 2013-01-09 22:47:01 <jgarzik> over 4g definitely
528 2013-01-09 22:47:14 * jgarzik guesstimates 5.5g
529 2013-01-09 22:47:42 BCBot4 has joined
530 2013-01-09 22:47:48 swappermall has joined
531 2013-01-09 22:48:02 <grau> my leveldb containing everything is 9.5gb ... if you care
532 2013-01-09 22:49:22 <sipa> enough :)
533 2013-01-09 22:51:19 <MC-Eeepc> i still think if bitcoin is backed by anything, its the tech industry
534 2013-01-09 22:52:28 <sipa> sure, and gold is backed by the mining industry?
535 2013-01-09 22:52:39 BCBo32 has joined
536 2013-01-09 22:52:44 <MC-Eeepc> no
537 2013-01-09 22:53:02 <MC-Eeepc> it mights be backed by te safe making and/or security personell industry though
538 2013-01-09 22:53:07 <sipa> how do you define 'backed by' anyway, if not "guaranteed to be exchangeable for
539 2013-01-09 22:53:29 <jgarzik> Guaranteed to be exchangeable for programmer sweat at a declining rate.
540 2013-01-09 22:53:37 <MC-Eeepc> if a handful of key tech companies all go "fuck it, were done" tomorrow, bitcoin is doomed long term
541 2013-01-09 22:53:52 <MC-Eeepc> of course so is pretty much everything else
542 2013-01-09 22:54:21 <jgarzik> CPU and GPU miners are widely distributed.  You'd have to see the end of computing to see the end of bitcoin.
543 2013-01-09 22:54:35 <MC-Eeepc> i should clarify
544 2013-01-09 22:54:52 grau_ has joined
545 2013-01-09 22:54:55 <MC-Eeepc> its scalability is totally backed by tech sector
546 2013-01-09 22:54:56 <jgarzik> and network of course
547 2013-01-09 22:55:23 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
548 2013-01-09 22:55:41 <MC-Eeepc> i think bitcoin came to light only a few years after the absolute minimum time that it could have
549 2013-01-09 22:56:12 <MC-Eeepc> and its deployment trajectory, if it can be said to have one, seems closely linked to moores law
550 2013-01-09 22:56:37 <MC-Eeepc> amazing timing and planning imo
551 2013-01-09 22:57:19 <MC-Eeepc> oh also network bandwidths and latencies
552 2013-01-09 22:57:39 BC9ot2 has joined
553 2013-01-09 22:57:50 <grau_> jgarzik: my son programmed that lego mindstorm with 6, I was nearly 3 times his writing the first program on a ZX80 and that had 8KB RAM.
554 2013-01-09 22:59:09 <sipa> with 6 what?
555 2013-01-09 22:59:16 MrTiggr has joined
556 2013-01-09 22:59:17 <grau_> with 6 years old
557 2013-01-09 22:59:42 <sipa> nice :)
558 2013-01-09 22:59:44 Impaler has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
559 2013-01-09 22:59:53 <grau_> You can program that with drag and drop and he figured quite quickly
560 2013-01-09 23:00:15 <sipa> i was 11 i think
561 2013-01-09 23:00:19 <sipa> GW-BASIC
562 2013-01-09 23:02:38 BCBot0 has joined
563 2013-01-09 23:03:49 <grau_> LET grau GOTO bed
564 2013-01-09 23:03:52 grau_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
565 2013-01-09 23:06:25 valparaiso has quit (Quit: Salamalecum....)
566 2013-01-09 23:07:38 BCBot3 has joined
567 2013-01-09 23:12:33 <jgarzik> yeah, my daughter has been touching and swiping on Android since age 2.  She knows how to load youtube and Angry Birds.
568 2013-01-09 23:12:36 BCBo02 has joined
569 2013-01-09 23:13:23 <sipa> hard to underestimate the importance of those :)
570 2013-01-09 23:13:35 <sipa> *overestimate
571 2013-01-09 23:13:42 <sipa> damn you negations
572 2013-01-09 23:16:24 <jgarzik> youtube has unlimited videos of baby goats, puppies, kittens, ...  it is crack for kids.
573 2013-01-09 23:16:54 <jgarzik> she also learned quite early "this is an advertisement; this is the boring video you ignore, while waiting for the good video"
574 2013-01-09 23:17:39 BCB4t2 has joined
575 2013-01-09 23:18:14 <freewil> ha
576 2013-01-09 23:20:25 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
577 2013-01-09 23:22:38 BCB3t2 has joined
578 2013-01-09 23:25:07 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
579 2013-01-09 23:26:36 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
580 2013-01-09 23:28:48 BCB2t2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
581 2013-01-09 23:29:05 BCBo12 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
582 2013-01-09 23:29:19 BCB1t2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
583 2013-01-09 23:29:19 BCBot2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
584 2013-01-09 23:29:24 maaku has joined
585 2013-01-09 23:29:26 B5Bot2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
586 2013-01-09 23:29:26 BCBot8 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
587 2013-01-09 23:29:34 B6Bot2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
588 2013-01-09 23:29:35 BCBot2` has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
589 2013-01-09 23:29:46 BCBot3 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
590 2013-01-09 23:29:53 BCB6t2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
591 2013-01-09 23:30:01 BC6ot2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
592 2013-01-09 23:30:01 BCB4t2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
593 2013-01-09 23:30:06 BCBot4 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
594 2013-01-09 23:30:08 BCB0t2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
595 2013-01-09 23:30:08 B1Bot2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
596 2013-01-09 23:30:11 BC7ot2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
597 2013-01-09 23:30:20 BCBot1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
598 2013-01-09 23:30:32 B4Bot2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
599 2013-01-09 23:30:36 BC9ot2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
600 2013-01-09 23:30:36 BCBot5 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
601 2013-01-09 23:30:37 BCBo32 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
602 2013-01-09 23:30:47 BCBo22 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
603 2013-01-09 23:30:50 BCBot9 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
604 2013-01-09 23:31:01 BCB3t2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
605 2013-01-09 23:31:01 BCBot2_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
606 2013-01-09 23:31:04 BC2ot2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
607 2013-01-09 23:31:07 BCBot0 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
608 2013-01-09 23:31:23 BCBo02 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
609 2013-01-09 23:31:30 BCBo82 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
610 2013-01-09 23:32:35 BCBot2 has joined
611 2013-01-09 23:32:36 16SAAT3L7 has joined
612 2013-01-09 23:32:37 17WAAYIBQ has joined
613 2013-01-09 23:32:40 BCBot2` has joined
614 2013-01-09 23:32:41 BCBot2_ has joined
615 2013-01-09 23:32:43 BCBot4 has joined
616 2013-01-09 23:32:44 BCBo02 has joined
617 2013-01-09 23:32:45 B7Bot2 has joined
618 2013-01-09 23:32:46 BCB8t2 has joined
619 2013-01-09 23:32:46 BCBo82 has joined
620 2013-01-09 23:32:47 BCBot6 has joined
621 2013-01-09 23:32:49 BCBo92 has joined
622 2013-01-09 23:32:49 18WACPWU3 has joined
623 2013-01-09 23:32:49 B5Bot2 has joined
624 2013-01-09 23:32:50 B0Bot2 has joined
625 2013-01-09 23:32:50 B3Bot2 has joined
626 2013-01-09 23:32:53 BC9ot2 has joined
627 2013-01-09 23:32:55 BC4ot2 has joined
628 2013-01-09 23:32:59 BCB2t2 has joined
629 2013-01-09 23:32:59 BCBot1 has joined
630 2013-01-09 23:33:00 BCB1t2 has joined
631 2013-01-09 23:33:06 BCBo22 has joined
632 2013-01-09 23:33:09 BC3ot2 has joined
633 2013-01-09 23:33:09 BCBot8 has joined
634 2013-01-09 23:33:51 BC0ot2 has joined
635 2013-01-09 23:33:52 BCBo42 has joined
636 2013-01-09 23:33:54 BCB6t2 has joined
637 2013-01-09 23:33:55 B9Bot2 has joined
638 2013-01-09 23:33:57 BCB4t2 has joined
639 2013-01-09 23:34:09 B6Bot2 has joined
640 2013-01-09 23:34:10 BC8ot2 has joined
641 2013-01-09 23:42:27 <MC-Eeepc> ^ the fuck
642 2013-01-09 23:43:14 <wizkid057> yeah, i dont have ops here
643 2013-01-09 23:43:15 <wizkid057> lol
644 2013-01-09 23:44:07 <MC-Eeepc> tab faster!
645 2013-01-09 23:44:13 <wizkid057> ew, manual kicks
646 2013-01-09 23:44:16 <wizkid057> lol
647 2013-01-09 23:44:18 <RedEmerald> (boom)
648 2013-01-09 23:44:32 <wizkid057> dont forget 16SAAT3L7 17WAAYIBQ and 18WACPWU3
649 2013-01-09 23:45:48 <weex> so glad i changed my nick from BCB<tab> in '05
650 2013-01-09 23:45:51 andytoshi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
651 2013-01-09 23:46:51 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
652 2013-01-09 23:48:02 <zapsoda> What is the proper way to convert satoshi amount to BTC to display it using PHP?
653 2013-01-09 23:55:56 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
654 2013-01-09 23:56:50 RNZ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
655 2013-01-09 23:59:23 Turingi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)