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28 2013-01-17 00:30:18 <sipa> gavinandresen: present?
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31 2013-01-17 00:31:46 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, I was being very thick (whats new?), and I cant think of a hash function that accomplishes the goal so...Im happy the way it is
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34 2013-01-17 00:32:20 <sipa> BlueMatt: np - it was not something i actually thought about before, so good you brought it up i guess
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36 2013-01-17 00:32:50 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ^
37 2013-01-17 00:33:36 <sipa> ;;later tell gavinandresen i've pushed a branch 'benchcpp' (compile with g++ -O2 bench.cpp key.cpp -lcrypto -o bench)... i'd be very interested in runtimes on 32 vs 64 bit on the same machine
38 2013-01-17 00:33:36 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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43 2013-01-17 00:39:22 <Luke-Jr> sipa: x32 would be nice too
44 2013-01-17 00:39:34 <sipa> x32?
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50 2013-01-17 00:42:03 <Luke-Jr> sipa: yes, 32-bit pointers but uses x86_64 opcodes
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52 2013-01-17 00:42:22 <Luke-Jr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X32_ABI
53 2013-01-17 00:42:29 <sipa> won't change much
54 2013-01-17 00:42:44 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I'd expect it to be closer to 64-bit than 32-bit
55 2013-01-17 00:42:44 <sipa> i don't think the openssl code is very pointer-intensive
56 2013-01-17 00:43:04 <sipa> (it's basically a benchmark for openssl's ecdsa verification speed)
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92 2013-01-17 01:14:05 <Acciaio> Why I have to do this) -> http://www.bitbin.it/SMyFfvAi ro send payiments from my site?
93 2013-01-17 01:14:51 <sipa> do what in there?
94 2013-01-17 01:16:06 <Acciaio> a lot of cycle to try validating address unencrypting wallet and sendfrom method
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97 2013-01-17 01:17:23 <Acciaio> I can't understand how bitcoin client handle rpc connections but it seems that a 10 time he will reply with 500 internal server error and one time with the correct answer
98 2013-01-17 01:17:29 <stealth222> you can validate addresses on the web server end
99 2013-01-17 01:17:36 <stealth222> to reduce the amount of roundtrip RPC
100 2013-01-17 01:18:33 <stealth222> it's silly to use bitcoind's RPC to check whether an address has a correct base58checksum
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103 2013-01-17 01:19:33 <Acciaio> yes but validate address function answer well 90% of times
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105 2013-01-17 01:19:57 <stealth222> you still should validate all user inputs ALWAYS in a web application
106 2013-01-17 01:20:07 <Acciaio> the real problem is walletpassphrase and the biggerone problem is sendfrom method
107 2013-01-17 01:20:42 <stealth222> I concur that walletpassphrase sucks for this type of usage
108 2013-01-17 01:21:07 <stealth222> probably better to not bother encrypting the wallet and instead placing stricter access controls via some RPC proxy
109 2013-01-17 01:21:40 <BlueMatt> that and do a hotwallet vs savings wallet distinction
110 2013-01-17 01:21:40 <stealth222> if someone manages to hack into your bitcoind server, chances are your bitcoins are already gone anyhow
111 2013-01-17 01:21:45 <sipa> or encypting the file, but unlocking it once for a very long time
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113 2013-01-17 01:22:05 <sipa> so at least people can't grab the wallet if they just get access to the wallet.dat file
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115 2013-01-17 01:22:40 <stealth222> walletpassphrase is ok for interactive usage of the wallet. for RPC, per-connection stateless secret stuff is way better
116 2013-01-17 01:24:15 <stealth222> and as BlueMatt says, keep a hotwallet with only sufficient funds to remain solvent - and transfer into it manually from a more secure wallet when funds are running low
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121 2013-01-17 01:28:53 <Acciaio> yes I use the bluematt solution a little hotspot wallet ... but for sure I have to study something about security
122 2013-01-17 01:29:25 <Acciaio> however now there is almost nothing to steal
123 2013-01-17 01:29:40 <stealth222> so then don't bother encrypting the wallet
124 2013-01-17 01:29:49 <stealth222> encrypt it only to make backups
125 2013-01-17 01:29:54 <BlueMatt> dont ever underestimate how little effort a bored hacker will go to to steal "almost nothing" :)
126 2013-01-17 01:30:13 <BlueMatt> s/little/much/
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129 2013-01-17 01:31:04 <stealth222> also, even if the wallet is encrypted, if a hacker breaks into your web server, unless you secure the RPC with some access controls, they can still steal everything
130 2013-01-17 01:31:21 <Acciaio> yes stealth but I have encrypted the wallet only to find a solution to sendfrom proble
131 2013-01-17 01:31:31 <Acciaio> I was crazy today to make it work
132 2013-01-17 01:31:34 <stealth222> for instance, place limits on volume and number of transactions - and set alerts when strange things happen
133 2013-01-17 01:31:40 <stealth222> and audit EVERY CALL
134 2013-01-17 01:32:25 <stealth222> and back up the audit to a remote machine regularly
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136 2013-01-17 01:32:56 <stealth222> that alone will do FAR more than walletpassphrase :p
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140 2013-01-17 01:34:10 <Acciaio> wallet passphrase suck because I have to store the passphrase somewhere
141 2013-01-17 01:34:31 <Acciaio> so I can read it from php
142 2013-01-17 01:34:49 <BlueMatt> or run a script on the bitcoind machine that just unlocks the wallet
143 2013-01-17 01:35:01 <sipa> neither does make sense
144 2013-01-17 01:35:24 <sipa> if an attacker can access the password as easily as the wallet.dat file, encryption is pointless
145 2013-01-17 01:35:44 <BlueMatt> heh dur yes
146 2013-01-17 01:35:59 <sipa> what does make sense is encrypting it, but only unlock it manually (after startup of your system), with a very long timeout
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149 2013-01-17 01:37:00 <Acciaio> sipa, if I unlock it manually it will stay unlocked also for rpc calls????
150 2013-01-17 01:37:01 <Acciaio> ...
151 2013-01-17 01:37:03 <lianj> does restarting bitcoind clear its orphan txpool pool?
152 2013-01-17 01:37:07 <sipa> Acciaio: yes
153 2013-01-17 01:37:15 <sipa> lianj: yes
154 2013-01-17 01:37:18 <Acciaio> I have some confusion about this
155 2013-01-17 01:37:19 <lianj> sipa: merci
156 2013-01-17 01:37:45 <sipa> Acciaio: the point of walletpassphrase is to prevent the secret key for needing to be in memory longer than necessary
157 2013-01-17 01:37:51 <sipa> it is not access control
158 2013-01-17 01:37:59 <sipa> (though it can be used as a weak form of that)
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160 2013-01-17 01:39:03 <sipa> Acciaio: the key just needs to be available when sending the coins - it doesn't matter how bitcoind knows it
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162 2013-01-17 01:40:03 <sipa> Acciaio: and "manually" would still be an RPC call, but perhaps one made by bitcoind itself
163 2013-01-17 01:40:48 <sipa> or even better, with a script that asks you for the passphrase instead of you needing to type in on the command line (where it might accidentally end up in .bash_history)
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190 2013-01-17 02:01:08 <Acciaio> thanks to all I have to go now!
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192 2013-01-17 02:01:17 <Acciaio> see you soon bye
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295 2013-01-17 03:47:40 <stealth222> are any of the bitcoin-qt people around?
296 2013-01-17 03:47:41 mughat3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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302 2013-01-17 03:51:47 <wiepe> what kind of person in his right frame of mind would talk to this gmaxwell character?
303 2013-01-17 03:52:05 jgarzik_ is now known as jgarzik
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308 2013-01-17 03:53:50 <eckey> touchy
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321 2013-01-17 04:06:49 <BlueMatt> ass hole's been bugging gmaxwell for a while...
322 2013-01-17 04:07:06 <BlueMatt> well, and this channel
323 2013-01-17 04:07:19 mughat3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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325 2013-01-17 04:07:34 <eckey> and who is jgarzik?
326 2013-01-17 04:08:01 <BlueMatt> one of the bitcoin core developers?
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332 2013-01-17 04:10:30 <eckey> but not andreson or hearn?
333 2013-01-17 04:11:57 <BlueMatt> you have a weird list...
334 2013-01-17 04:12:25 <BlueMatt> andresen leads satoshi client, but hearn does bitcoinj
335 2013-01-17 04:12:27 <eckey> I've been away for two years. Please explain...
336 2013-01-17 04:12:54 <BlueMatt> there are waaaay more than like 2 developers on bitcoin, and more than one client
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338 2013-01-17 04:12:59 <BlueMatt> each with multiple developers
339 2013-01-17 04:13:06 mughat3 has joined
340 2013-01-17 04:14:43 <eckey> and each of those developers is empowered to kick others off this list? Just trying to understand...
341 2013-01-17 04:15:06 <BlueMatt> its an irc channel, people kick spammers...calm down
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345 2013-01-17 04:18:40 <eckey> I'm sitting here with a bottle of Old Bushmills and a shot glass--I am very calm. Just trying to understand how one nobody can kick another nobody.
346 2013-01-17 04:18:50 mughat3 has joined
347 2013-01-17 04:19:05 <BlueMatt> ehhh...not at all, one very much somebody kicked a very, very regular spammer
348 2013-01-17 04:19:41 <BlueMatt> anyway, I hate discussions sparked by spammers/trolls, so Im gonna stop now
349 2013-01-17 04:20:21 <eckey> weipe's comment was "what kind of person in his right frame of mind would talk to this gmaxwell character?" and he got kicked. Maybe you should suggest jgarzik calm down...
350 2013-01-17 04:20:30 <BlueMatt> lol
351 2013-01-17 04:20:31 <BlueMatt> ok
352 2013-01-17 04:20:40 <eckey> spammer? what is he selling?
353 2013-01-17 04:20:55 <Luke-Jr> eckey: he comes in here and harrasses gmaxwell every other day
354 2013-01-17 04:21:02 <phantomcircuit> s/other//
355 2013-01-17 04:21:10 <phantomcircuit> the guy really has no life
356 2013-01-17 04:21:27 <eckey> Hi Luke, I remember you from years ago. Who is this gmaxwell?
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360 2013-01-17 04:21:47 <Luke-Jr> eckey: bitcoind developer
361 2013-01-17 04:21:52 <Luke-Jr> eckey: Gregory Maxwell
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364 2013-01-17 04:22:55 <eckey> ok. just trying to get a handle on the politics of the #bitcoin channels
365 2013-01-17 04:23:02 <Luke-Jr> meh, no real politics
366 2013-01-17 04:23:12 <Luke-Jr> obvious trolls get banned, that's pretty much it
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370 2013-01-17 04:25:14 <eckey> I'm developing wallet software for a new web site, FWIW
371 2013-01-17 04:25:32 <eckey> ECKey, etc.
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387 2013-01-17 04:41:56 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: perhaps /ban mughat3!*@*!##fix_your_connection
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485 2013-01-17 06:18:12 <jgarzik> channel ban list is full? sigh
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488 2013-01-17 06:20:42 <petertodd> jgarzik: btw, I'm working on doing that cython port of pynode I mentioned before
489 2013-01-17 06:20:57 <jgarzik> petertodd: cool
490 2013-01-17 06:21:33 <petertodd> I'm calling it python-bitcoin, and I ripped out all the node-specific stuff to make it just a library
491 2013-01-17 06:21:55 <jgarzik> petertodd: that's pretty much already the goal behind the entire bitcoin/ directory ;p
492 2013-01-17 06:22:23 <petertodd> heh, yeah I figured as much, it's decently well organized
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495 2013-01-17 06:23:23 <petertodd> basically I deleted everything that wasn't in bitcoin/ :P
496 2013-01-17 06:25:31 <jgarzik> petertodd: ideal would have been a pull request moving the node stuff, then adding __init__.py to bitcoin/ and making it a proper package
497 2013-01-17 06:26:25 <petertodd> jgarzik: yeah, I figured it's all pretty invasive, and it looked like it hadn't been worked on for awhile, so I'd see what makes sense before doing the pull and stuff like that
498 2013-01-17 06:27:11 <jgarzik> petertodd: it's actively used... not too many bugs in the core
499 2013-01-17 06:28:15 <petertodd> heh, I found a few by compiling it that I need to do pull reqs for :P what is it getting used for btw?
500 2013-01-17 06:29:24 <jgarzik> petertodd: Odd Jobs </goldfinger>
501 2013-01-17 06:29:35 <petertodd> lol
502 2013-01-17 06:30:11 <jgarzik> petertodd: several people have used it on their websites as a secondary monitoring node, or for things that are easily scriptable in python but not in bitcoind -- notably event notifications like block/tx async notifications
503 2013-01-17 06:31:09 <petertodd> cool, yeah, I mainly want a library with a pythonic interface to script's and transactions
504 2013-01-17 06:32:01 <petertodd> and with cython I suspect it can be just as fast as libbitcoin
505 2013-01-17 06:33:10 <jgarzik> should be fast enough for just about anything besides full-chain-verification
506 2013-01-17 06:33:49 <jgarzik> anyway, well past time for sleep. send pull requests, even major ones! *poof*
507 2013-01-17 06:33:56 <petertodd> ha, will do
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537 2013-01-17 08:16:40 <mariusursache> hello. I'm using bitcoin-qt for mac to generate some test coints (on testnet), however since 2 days ago I have 2k BTC as 'immature'. can I do something to move them to balance?
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541 2013-01-17 08:33:16 <weex> mariusursache: has it been 100 or 120 blocks since they were generated?
542 2013-01-17 08:33:44 <mariusursache> where can I check how many blocks were?
543 2013-01-17 08:34:11 <SomeoneWeird> ;;bc,blocks
544 2013-01-17 08:34:12 <gribble> 216880
545 2013-01-17 08:34:57 <mariusursache> ;;bc,blocks
546 2013-01-17 08:34:57 <gribble> 216880
547 2013-01-17 08:35:02 <mariusursache> ;;help
548 2013-01-17 08:35:02 m0mchil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
549 2013-01-17 08:35:02 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
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552 2013-01-17 08:36:43 <weex> mariusursache: does the list of transactions in bitcoin-qt show how many confirmations since those coins were generated?
553 2013-01-17 08:37:06 <mariusursache> weex: number of transactions: 43
554 2013-01-17 08:37:16 <mariusursache> is this the confirmation?
555 2013-01-17 08:38:02 <weex> nope, i thought it showed confirmations on the left of each transaction
556 2013-01-17 08:38:07 <weex> but perhaps for generation it doesnt
557 2013-01-17 08:38:11 <mariusursache> I think I found it. in the transactions tab, on some it says 91/92 confirmations. when those get to 100 they are confirmed?
558 2013-01-17 08:38:22 <weex> or 120
559 2013-01-17 08:38:44 <mariusursache> cool, thanks. so on testnet is that slow. how fast is it on realnet?
560 2013-01-17 08:38:46 <weex> but might as well check in an couple hours
561 2013-01-17 08:39:01 <weex> 1 confirmation every 10 mins on avg
562 2013-01-17 08:39:17 <weex> so 144 per day
563 2013-01-17 08:39:22 <mariusursache> that's 10 min on real net or on testnet?
564 2013-01-17 08:39:26 <SomeoneWeird> both
565 2013-01-17 08:39:27 <weex> real
566 2013-01-17 08:39:30 <SomeoneWeird> it's average
567 2013-01-17 08:39:50 <mariusursache> thank you
568 2013-01-17 08:39:56 <weex> i didn't know if testnet had enough hashpower to stick to 10 minx
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570 2013-01-17 08:39:59 <weex> mins*
571 2013-01-17 08:40:12 <SomeoneWeird> pretty sure it's still 10 on the testnet
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581 2013-01-17 09:26:54 <muhoo> are there compiled jars out there of bitcoinj 0.6.x anywhere?
582 2013-01-17 09:27:22 <muhoo> i found jars of 0.7, but it conflicts with a bunch of stuff (guano, etc)
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605 2013-01-17 11:00:40 <mariusursache> I think on testnet the speed is 1 confirmation at each 30 minutes. I had 92 earlier, it's 96 now. so 4 in 2h20min
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608 2013-01-17 11:08:36 <sipa> mariusursache: the rule is 1 block per 10 minutes
609 2013-01-17 11:08:42 <sipa> mariusursache: but there must be someone mining
610 2013-01-17 11:09:00 <sipa> if nobody is mining on testnet (or at very variable speed), confirmations are slower of course
611 2013-01-17 11:09:34 <mariusursache> sipa: mining with some gpu/fpga or should work with regular computer?
612 2013-01-17 11:09:53 <sipa> yes
613 2013-01-17 11:10:10 <sipa> difficulty is far lower on testnet
614 2013-01-17 11:10:58 <mariusursache> so I can start an ubuntu vm and do some mining?
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616 2013-01-17 11:11:51 <sipa> you can even mine just with CPU on testnet; start the client with -gen
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633 2013-01-17 11:44:45 <t7> is anyone on the bitcoin dev team being hired to work on bitcoin?
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635 2013-01-17 11:48:39 <sipa> t7: gavin is paid by the bitcoin foundation
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645 2013-01-17 12:14:20 <dparrish> ;;ticker
646 2013-01-17 12:14:21 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 14.82186, Best ask: 14.84100, Bid-ask spread: 0.01914, Last trade: 14.84100, 24 hour volume: 43600.45820899, 24 hour low: 14.42512, 24 hour high: 14.92000, 24 hour vwap: 14.67562
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708 2013-01-17 14:06:27 <Yrouel> hi
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710 2013-01-17 14:07:31 <Yrouel> I'm using bitcoin-qt on mac and I'd like to have bitcoind as client in background so when I open the gui I can find it alread synced with the network. Is that possible?
711 2013-01-17 14:08:08 zooko` has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
712 2013-01-17 14:08:43 <luke-jr_> Yrouel: no
713 2013-01-17 14:09:02 <Yrouel> I don't need to use the gui too often but if I don't leave it opened next time I do it takes forever to sync so with a deamon inbackground (possibly integrated with launchd) it would sync silently and the app wouldn't require so much time then
714 2013-01-17 14:09:12 <luke-jr_> well, sortof
715 2013-01-17 14:09:19 <luke-jr_> you could shutdown bitcoind before starting Bitcoin-Qt
716 2013-01-17 14:09:34 <Yrouel> soo
717 2013-01-17 14:09:36 <Yrouel> basically
718 2013-01-17 14:09:46 <luke-jr_> that'd keep the blockchain sync'd, but you still need to exit/load it
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720 2013-01-17 14:09:56 <Yrouel> even if bitoind is bundled with bitcoind-qt the integration between the two is non existant?
721 2013-01-17 14:10:03 <luke-jr_> correct
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726 2013-01-17 14:10:57 <Yrouel> well could you add that feature? it would at least "mask" the problem of slow sync
727 2013-01-17 14:11:34 <luke-jr_> â¦
728 2013-01-17 14:11:47 <luke-jr_> there's no reason not to just leave Bitcoin-Qt running 24/7
729 2013-01-17 14:12:14 <Yrouel> well but that's a job for a daemon
730 2013-01-17 14:12:23 <Yrouel> would be a proper implementation of that logic
731 2013-01-17 14:12:33 <luke-jr_> perhaps, but that's not how Bitcoin-Qt is designed
732 2013-01-17 14:12:48 <luke-jr_> patches welcome, I'm pretty sure
733 2013-01-17 14:13:06 <Yrouel> is that another gui tat acts more as a frontend for bitcoind?
734 2013-01-17 14:13:12 agricocb has joined
735 2013-01-17 14:13:22 <Yrouel> is there*
736 2013-01-17 14:13:40 <luke-jr_> there was Spesmilo, but everyone stopped maintaining it
737 2013-01-17 14:14:19 Joric has joined
738 2013-01-17 14:16:17 <Yrouel> luke-jr_ is thanks for the info
739 2013-01-17 14:16:31 <Yrouel> is there a schedule plan for next release?
740 2013-01-17 14:16:45 <Yrouel> 0.8 if I'm right
741 2013-01-17 14:17:12 <Yrouel> that it should at least implement something new to speed up the database or something like that right?
742 2013-01-17 14:17:25 <luke-jr_> no;yes
743 2013-01-17 14:17:48 <Joric> maybe someone knows, i have an OCZ agility 3 ssd drive, does it use ATA password in the BIOS as a base for its encryption keys? does it even support this kind of encryption?
744 2013-01-17 14:18:17 <Diablo-D3> no. probably not.
745 2013-01-17 14:18:22 <Yrouel> luke-jr_ historically what's the avg time between releases?
746 2013-01-17 14:18:55 luke-jr_ is now known as Luke-Jr
747 2013-01-17 14:19:04 <Joric> Diablo-D3, just a shot in a dark? )
748 2013-01-17 14:19:31 <Diablo-D3> Joric: if it has built in encryption, it came with windows utilities to do it
749 2013-01-17 14:19:34 antix_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
750 2013-01-17 14:20:07 <Diablo-D3> Joric: no consumer drive has it afaik
751 2013-01-17 14:20:18 <Diablo-D3> very few enterprise drives have it, theres no call for it
752 2013-01-17 14:20:26 <Diablo-D3> its easier to just do it in a dedicated hardware controller
753 2013-01-17 14:20:43 <sipa> Yrouel: you're very welcome to try test builds for 0.8, see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=129861.0
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757 2013-01-17 14:21:51 <Joric> heard truecrypt drastically affects ssd speed + not secure at all because it can't overwrite old keys due to wear leveling
758 2013-01-17 14:22:42 <Yrouel> sipa uhm how "official" are those?
759 2013-01-17 14:23:05 <Luke-Jr> Yrouel: there's no such thing as official for Bitcoin
760 2013-01-17 14:23:09 <Joric> * same about compromised wallet keys ) if you're using ssd
761 2013-01-17 14:23:31 <Luke-Jr> Yrouel: sipa/Pieter is the main developer of the major changes in 0.8
762 2013-01-17 14:23:41 <Yrouel> Luke-Jr well bitcoin.org is the "official" site for example
763 2013-01-17 14:23:52 <Yrouel> anyway I don't see prebuilt mac versions so :(
764 2013-01-17 14:24:01 <Luke-Jr> Mac is always a pain to deal with
765 2013-01-17 14:24:18 <Yrouel> why?
766 2013-01-17 14:24:28 <Yrouel> using qt shouldn't be too hard
767 2013-01-17 14:24:39 <Luke-Jr> Yrouel: you know how to setup a cross-compiler? :P
768 2013-01-17 14:24:42 daybyter has joined
769 2013-01-17 14:24:52 <Luke-Jr> I've put hours into it and I still don't have it working
770 2013-01-17 14:24:54 <Yrouel> oh cross compiling is a pita
771 2013-01-17 14:24:59 <Luke-Jr> only for Mac
772 2013-01-17 14:25:33 <Scrat> Joric: ATA password support for SSDs (and M/Bs) is a sad joke
773 2013-01-17 14:25:34 <Joric> Diablo-D3, before you i was practically sure that all ssd's support encryption you only have to change ata password in the bios :(
774 2013-01-17 14:25:43 <Scrat> and vendors won't even tell you what implementation they use
775 2013-01-17 14:26:27 <Yrouel> Luke-Jr I guess the pita is the crosscompilation part, compiling the code directly on a mac I thing would be much less painful
776 2013-01-17 14:26:30 <Joric> Scrat, how it works then? i have ocz agility 3
777 2013-01-17 14:26:30 zooko``` has joined
778 2013-01-17 14:26:41 <Luke-Jr> Yrouel: then we need a Mac etc :p
779 2013-01-17 14:26:55 <Yrouel> yeah it's the little detail gh
780 2013-01-17 14:27:03 <Scrat> can your BIOS set ata password? the only way to try it is to set it and then plug it on another pc
781 2013-01-17 14:27:06 <sipa> Yrouel: I maintain those test builds; they're not official as in not verified by several developers (as normal releases do), and it's build with patches that aren't accepted in mainline; otherwise, they are built in exactly the same way, and are gpg signed by me (and my GPG key is on http://bitcoin.org/pieterwuille.asc)
782 2013-01-17 14:27:41 <Yrouel> sipa ok but there isn't a mac buils so thanks anyway :)
783 2013-01-17 14:27:45 <Luke-Jr> Yrouel: 90% of us use Linux, and 1 uses Windows ;)
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785 2013-01-17 14:28:02 <Luke-Jr> Yrouel: "official" Windows binaries are built on Linux in a deterministic way (so the SHA256 of them is identical)
786 2013-01-17 14:28:05 <sipa> Yrouel: oh, sorry, I don't do any OSX stuff - you can build them yourself if you need to, though
787 2013-01-17 14:28:07 <Joric> Scrat, got ya, i'll try, yes i have separate hdd password not sure it arrived with ssd or always been there
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789 2013-01-17 14:28:44 <Yrouel> sipa yep I know I still haven't setup a proper qt buildroot
790 2013-01-17 14:29:13 <Scrat> I would not trust any closed implementation with encrypting my data. for all you know they are storing the password on the disk
791 2013-01-17 14:29:22 <Luke-Jr> Yrouel: but you just said it was easy :o
792 2013-01-17 14:29:50 <Yrouel> Luke-Jr it is, I just haven't the patience to download the framework and install it
793 2013-01-17 14:30:02 <Yrouel> because 'till now the only reason would have been a single app
794 2013-01-17 14:30:04 <Scrat> truecrypt on ssd might have some overhead and might wear your disk out sooner but I don't see another solution
795 2013-01-17 14:30:06 <Yrouel> now there's two
796 2013-01-17 14:30:13 <Yrouel> and it might be worth it
797 2013-01-17 14:30:16 <Scrat> eCrypfts is great if you can use it (linux)
798 2013-01-17 14:30:21 <Joric> Scrat, oh those closed source encryption schemes
799 2013-01-17 14:30:57 <Joric> "Since key length and key structure vary and since the encryption engine does not use any mathematical algorithms, reverse engineering is impossible and guessing is not an option."
800 2013-01-17 14:31:14 <Joric> http://www.engr.mun.ca/~howard/crypto2012/crypto_snake_oil.pdf
801 2013-01-17 14:31:15 <Luke-Jr> XD
802 2013-01-17 14:31:31 <Luke-Jr> Joric: dead link ;)
803 2013-01-17 14:31:35 <Joric> dam
804 2013-01-17 14:31:42 <Joric> google crypto snake oil
805 2013-01-17 14:35:35 igetgames has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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807 2013-01-17 14:38:46 <Yrouel> Luke-Jr qt 5 is ok or I need a previous version?
808 2013-01-17 14:39:14 <sipa> Yrouel: 4.8
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811 2013-01-17 14:44:42 <Diablo-D3> [09:08:29] <Joric> Diablo-D3, before you i was practically sure that all ssd's support encryption you only have to change ata password in the bios :(
812 2013-01-17 14:44:52 <Diablo-D3> dude, my bios doesnt even have an "ata password"
813 2013-01-17 14:45:08 <Scrat> most bioses dont
814 2013-01-17 14:45:11 <Diablo-D3> [09:04:46] <Joric> heard truecrypt drastically affects ssd speed + not secure at all because it can't overwrite old keys due to wear leveling
815 2013-01-17 14:45:14 <Diablo-D3> not entirely true
816 2013-01-17 14:45:20 <Diablo-D3> truecrypt writes encrypted data to the drive
817 2013-01-17 14:45:38 zooko``` has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
818 2013-01-17 14:45:38 <Diablo-D3> yes, it leaves old encrypted data behind due to wear leveling, but its hard for someone to get that data
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820 2013-01-17 14:45:47 <Diablo-D3> you're looking at a government agency trying to recover it at that point
821 2013-01-17 14:45:49 <Diablo-D3> AAAAAAAAND
822 2013-01-17 14:45:51 <Diablo-D3> its still encrypted.
823 2013-01-17 14:46:18 <Diablo-D3> and it doesnt effect ssd speed, it effects cpu bound write throughput
824 2013-01-17 14:46:23 <Diablo-D3> ie, your cpu might not be fast enough.
825 2013-01-17 14:46:39 <Joric> those drives should have an emergency button "flash it all at once"
826 2013-01-17 14:46:52 <Diablo-D3> most drives have secure destroy
827 2013-01-17 14:46:56 <Scrat> true that, a FS cannot tell an SSD to overwrite data because it will map to different LBAs
828 2013-01-17 14:47:28 <Diablo-D3> btw, real harddrives use wear leveling too
829 2013-01-17 14:47:35 <Diablo-D3> Im not sure why people suddenly realized wear leveling existed
830 2013-01-17 14:47:56 <Scrat> or rather same LBA will result to different physical chip writes
831 2013-01-17 14:48:03 <Diablo-D3> Scrat: yes, that
832 2013-01-17 14:48:05 Zarutian has joined
833 2013-01-17 14:48:16 <Diablo-D3> the point I was making is your garbage is still encrypted
834 2013-01-17 14:48:17 <Joric> well not 'data', i was speaking about old volume header with compromised keys i guess it can be found by signature
835 2013-01-17 14:48:18 <Scrat> Diablo-D3 pretty sure hdds do that only if there's a problem with a block
836 2013-01-17 14:48:24 <Scrat> aka block reallocation
837 2013-01-17 14:48:24 <Diablo-D3> Scrat: nope
838 2013-01-17 14:48:34 <erska> encryption may affect ssd speed, some drives compress the data on the fly before writing it, and encrypted data should not compress at all
839 2013-01-17 14:48:36 <Diablo-D3> they wear level as well
840 2013-01-17 14:48:37 <Scrat> and keep a small map of reallocations
841 2013-01-17 14:48:56 <Diablo-D3> but its within a local area
842 2013-01-17 14:49:01 <Yrouel> sipa I see some merged pull requests about qt5 is still not supported tho?
843 2013-01-17 14:49:22 <Diablo-D3> erska: drives that compress should be considered scams
844 2013-01-17 14:49:39 <Diablo-D3> virtually all the data people have _is already compressed_
845 2013-01-17 14:50:30 <Joric> anyway, using truecrypt on ssd drives is questionable
846 2013-01-17 14:50:40 <erska> video files, images, archives yeah, they are compressed
847 2013-01-17 14:50:46 <Scrat> oh snap
848 2013-01-17 14:50:48 <erska> but those are not things SSDs are usually used for
849 2013-01-17 14:51:01 <Scrat> apparently with kernel 3.1+ dmcrypt can do TRIM passthrough
850 2013-01-17 14:51:01 <erska> more often people install things that need to load fast
851 2013-01-17 14:51:04 <erska> OS, apps, games
852 2013-01-17 14:51:09 <erska> and those usually do compress
853 2013-01-17 14:51:13 <Diablo-D3> Joric: its not questionable for the reasons I just said
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855 2013-01-17 14:51:34 <erska> and when they do compress, it saves some of the wear from flash, since the drive does not need to write as much
856 2013-01-17 14:51:37 <Diablo-D3> erska: games are already compressed
857 2013-01-17 14:51:48 <Diablo-D3> and drives simply dont have the hardware for real compression
858 2013-01-17 14:51:49 <erska> not always
859 2013-01-17 14:52:02 <Diablo-D3> erska: game assets are already compressed.
860 2013-01-17 14:52:07 <Scrat> installed games? not really. some of them use compressed textures
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864 2013-01-17 14:52:56 <Diablo-D3> Scrat: even if its uncompressed, a lot of games use zips as the container
865 2013-01-17 14:53:36 <erska> I have a typical Steam installation here with about 20 games, uncompressed size is 75GB, NTFS compressed size is 56,7GB
866 2013-01-17 14:53:42 <erska> and NTFS does not do very heavy compression
867 2013-01-17 14:53:56 <Joric> what are you talking about - games, videos ) most ppl store databases and corporate source code
868 2013-01-17 14:54:17 <erska> so even writing that to SSD with similar compression ratio would save about 20GB of writes
869 2013-01-17 14:54:20 <Diablo-D3> lol ntfs compression
870 2013-01-17 14:54:23 <Diablo-D3> lolololololol
871 2013-01-17 14:54:40 <Diablo-D3> man, whats with noobs lately
872 2013-01-17 14:54:42 <erska> compression type is not the point here
873 2013-01-17 14:54:51 <erska> but the point that installed games usually do compress
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875 2013-01-17 14:55:19 <Diablo-D3> and saving 20gb of written once data does... nothing.
876 2013-01-17 14:56:19 <Joric> i wonder why ssd compression wasn't used for the marketing yet :)
877 2013-01-17 14:56:50 <Scrat> oh it is
878 2013-01-17 14:57:00 <Scrat> it brings their write amplication down
879 2013-01-17 14:57:32 <Scrat> this is the kind of marketing for an anandtech reader tho, lol
880 2013-01-17 14:59:22 <Diablo-D3> yeah, I wonder if it can be turned off
881 2013-01-17 14:59:26 <Diablo-D3> I wont buy a drive with it
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883 2013-01-17 15:01:38 <Diablo-D3> seriously, why the fuck would I want a device with a tiny little microcontroller in it encrypting
884 2013-01-17 15:01:42 <Diablo-D3> that makes no goddamned sense
885 2013-01-17 15:03:02 <erska> then you don't need to wipe every flash block when doing a secure erase
886 2013-01-17 15:03:07 <erska> they just wipe the encryption key
887 2013-01-17 15:04:11 <Joric> meh, don't be ridiculous
888 2013-01-17 15:04:18 <Diablo-D3> lol
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892 2013-01-17 15:04:33 <Diablo-D3> also, I meant compressing
893 2013-01-17 15:04:37 <Diablo-D3> same goes for encrypting
894 2013-01-17 15:04:48 <Diablo-D3> theres no reason to have a drive do it
895 2013-01-17 15:04:57 <Diablo-D3> theres no way in hell it can be fast enough
896 2013-01-17 15:05:47 <erska> simple, it reduces flash write cycles, thus extending life of the drive
897 2013-01-17 15:05:58 <erska> unless all you write is incompressible data
898 2013-01-17 15:06:15 <Diablo-D3> most of the data on people's drive is a) written once b) already compressed
899 2013-01-17 15:06:25 <Diablo-D3> so why would you _slow the drive down_ being dumb?
900 2013-01-17 15:07:35 <sipa> if you add a hardware encryption chip that can sustain the bandwidth of the drive itself, there will not be any measurable slowdown
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902 2013-01-17 15:07:55 <sipa> as in: only the extra latency of that encryption chip, but that's likely microseconds
903 2013-01-17 15:08:01 <Joric> stop that ssd flame already i just asked if it somehow utilizes bios password or not :)
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905 2013-01-17 15:08:38 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yes, but thats a $500 raid controller
906 2013-01-17 15:09:01 <Joric> apparently i just have to try it myself - set a password, then try this ssd on another machine
907 2013-01-17 15:09:07 <Scrat> bleh its all about write amplfication, and decent compression isnt expensive to put on an arm chip nowadays
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909 2013-01-17 15:10:10 <erska> you don't need a $500 raid controller, sandforce-based drives do compression and encryption in hardware, at wire speeds
910 2013-01-17 15:10:42 <erska> if you don't have enough flash chips in the drive to sustain wire speeds with uncompressed data, compressing actually speeds the drive up
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912 2013-01-17 15:12:28 <erska> and that is why I said in the start that encryption may affect ssd speeds, since any of the data going to the ssd won't compress any further
913 2013-01-17 15:12:31 <Joric> sandforce logo looks like stark industries hehe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SandForce
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915 2013-01-17 15:14:24 <Joric> "and "AES encryption" [4] which works in the background and is completely automatic. It is linked to the BIOS password and encrypts the user data at the full speed of the data as it passes through the controller." -- wiki
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922 2013-01-17 15:18:47 <kjj> you always always always compress first, and then encrypt second
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938 2013-01-17 15:29:05 <Joric> i wonder will blkindex.dat be splitted when it reaches 2gb?
939 2013-01-17 15:29:20 <Joric> it's already over 1gb
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949 2013-01-17 15:31:57 <sipa> Joric: i don't think so
950 2013-01-17 15:32:05 <sipa> Joric: i doubt BDB automatically splits database files
951 2013-01-17 15:32:25 <Joric> so, we have another possibly critical issue? )
952 2013-01-17 15:32:37 <sipa> 0.8 won't use blkindex.dat anymore :p
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954 2013-01-17 15:34:03 <SomeoneWeird> :o
955 2013-01-17 15:36:04 <sipa> and the LevelDB databases to replace it use a directory per database, with many files that each are at most a few MB
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978 2013-01-17 16:41:04 <sipa> seems by DNS seed is serving over 5 requests/s now... last time i checked (which may be several months ago) that was only 1-2
979 2013-01-17 16:41:29 <sipa> *my
980 2013-01-17 16:41:41 <kjj> that seems like a good metric to keep track of
981 2013-01-17 16:42:45 <kjj> do you just pull that out of your peers list, or do you update it manually?
982 2013-01-17 16:42:53 impulse has joined
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984 2013-01-17 16:44:05 <sipa> kjj: i have written a custom p2p crawler + dns seeder
985 2013-01-17 16:44:19 <sipa> that keeps statistics about reachability of IPs and such
986 2013-01-17 16:44:28 <sipa> it badly needs a rewrite though
987 2013-01-17 16:46:14 <sipa> or wait... are you referring to the request speed?
988 2013-01-17 16:46:44 <sipa> this is typical output:
989 2013-01-17 16:46:45 <sipa> [13-01-17 17:29:11] 2681/455211 available (451334 tried in 72958s, 3853 new, 24 active), 17067 banned; 7637 DNS requests, 144 db queries
990 2013-01-17 16:47:15 <sipa> the last two numbers are since restart, which was less than half an hour ago
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1019 2013-01-17 17:23:42 <sipa> gavinandresen: after some investigation, it seems that's openssl's ecdsa verify performance is around 2 times slower on 32-bit
1020 2013-01-17 17:24:01 <sipa> thanks to stealth222 for running on a few systems too :)
1021 2013-01-17 17:24:34 <gavinandresen> sipa: so you don't need me to benchmark? My TODO list was eat lunch then pull your branch and test....
1022 2013-01-17 17:24:45 <Luke-Jr> ouch
1023 2013-01-17 17:24:47 <sipa> so not the x5 i observed in full validation speed... not sure what happened there
1024 2013-01-17 17:25:13 <sipa> i still need to reproduce that on other systems
1025 2013-01-17 17:25:59 <sipa> gavinandresen: getting real bitcoind performance numbers is probably more useful
1026 2013-01-17 17:26:11 <sipa> ... but also more work
1027 2013-01-17 17:26:44 <gavinandresen> sipa: shouldn't be a lot more work, I could benchmark reindexing the test net chain with 32-bit versus 64-bit binaries
1028 2013-01-17 17:27:08 <sipa> gavinandresen: would be nice
1029 2013-01-17 17:27:18 <gavinandresen> ok, that'll be my after-lunch TODO
1030 2013-01-17 17:35:12 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that kind of variation isn't too surprising i guess - i tried without the assembly-optimized montgomery multiplication in OpenSSL (on 64 bit), and it caused a 3x slowdown
1031 2013-01-17 17:35:21 <sipa> so really a lot depends on the performance of that code
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1036 2013-01-17 17:47:06 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: any plans on merging bloom filters soon, or do you want more acks?
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1061 2013-01-17 18:19:36 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: you're done tweaking?
1062 2013-01-17 18:20:37 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yes
1063 2013-01-17 18:21:21 <gavinandresen> merged
1064 2013-01-17 18:21:24 <BlueMatt> thanks
1065 2013-01-17 18:21:25 <BlueMatt> :)
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1068 2013-01-17 18:34:52 <Joric> who is this guy? http://blockchain.info/address/1B5h9sf6xNLYGa3NBk48hwYbxyNZ22PRJk
1069 2013-01-17 18:36:01 BlueMattBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1070 2013-01-17 18:36:32 <andytoshi> Joric, how do you find these?
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1074 2013-01-17 18:38:50 <Joric> andytoshi, http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/the-question-of-the-year-in-btc/
1075 2013-01-17 18:40:10 <Joric> funny, he sends funds but nothing's coming back, sdice seems stall
1076 2013-01-17 18:42:24 TD has joined
1077 2013-01-17 18:43:26 <andytoshi> Joric: you should warn NFSW :P some of us are sensitive
1078 2013-01-17 18:43:41 * andytoshi meanwhile keeps F5'ing 4chan
1079 2013-01-17 18:45:03 <andytoshi> also, is there some bitcoin law that says commentators have to use "beg the question" wrong in every article?
1080 2013-01-17 18:45:16 <Joric> seems after some consideration, voorhees decided not to pay :o)
1081 2013-01-17 18:46:48 <Joric> i've seen moaning on forums regarding stalled bets, voorhees is like oops, here is your money, sorry
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1085 2013-01-17 18:48:34 <Joric> there are still a lot of double spends towards sdice http://blockchain.info/double-spends
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1093 2013-01-17 18:56:08 <Cylta> Hello. Is it possible to modify bitcoin algorythm to let it work in separated networks with rare syncronisation? For example if connection between USA and EU will be destroed somehow, is there any way to make bitcoin work in separated areas (different blochchains for USA and EU) and live-merging two different blockchains with accepting both of the blockchains and give coins to miners according to local difficulty at their location? (for example after reuni
1094 2013-01-17 18:58:54 <kjj> already done, sorta
1095 2013-01-17 18:59:02 <Cylta> for example suncronisation once a week with block time of 10 minutes
1096 2013-01-17 18:59:04 <jgarzik> w00t
1097 2013-01-17 18:59:13 <jgarzik> time to sync libccoin's bloom filter stuff
1098 2013-01-17 18:59:22 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: nice!
1099 2013-01-17 18:59:43 <Cylta> kjj: right now all blockchain that is shorter will be declined, as I know
1100 2013-01-17 18:59:45 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: good work, thanks for hanging in there and hammering out all the details
1101 2013-01-17 18:59:46 <kjj> but beware that anyone that is aware of the split is going to dobule spend the shit out of the isolated portion
1102 2013-01-17 19:00:03 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: more like finding the occasional time to come back to it...:)
1103 2013-01-17 19:00:07 <jgarzik> Cylta: no, additions to shorter blockchains are accepted
1104 2013-01-17 19:00:14 <jgarzik> Cylta: just not counted as the primary chain
1105 2013-01-17 19:00:41 <Cylta> jgarzik: so, transactions from non-primary blockchain already can be accepted?
1106 2013-01-17 19:00:43 <kjj> when the two reconnect, the nodes on the shorter chain will switch and rebroadcast stuff that was in their chain, but not the longer chain
1107 2013-01-17 19:02:11 <kjj> that the smaller network is vulnerable to reversal once reconnected is a necessary consequence of the network split
1108 2013-01-17 19:02:13 <jgarzik> Cylta: _blocks_ adding to a non-primary chain are accepted
1109 2013-01-17 19:02:30 <jgarzik> Cylta: because, naturally, any chain might suddenly become the primary
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1111 2013-01-17 19:02:48 <jgarzik> Cylta: clients are expected to rebroadcast transactions until they make it into a chain
1112 2013-01-17 19:03:08 <Cylta> jgarzik: so, blocks are accepted, just miner will not get a reward?
1113 2013-01-17 19:03:41 <kjj> their reward will be taken away when the rest of the network overwrites their fork
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1115 2013-01-17 19:03:49 <Cylta> okay
1116 2013-01-17 19:03:59 <jgarzik> kjj: well
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1118 2013-01-17 19:04:14 <jgarzik> more correctly, the rest of the network will not permit them to spend their non-primary-chain reward in the primary chain
1119 2013-01-17 19:04:27 <jgarzik> but the reward is always there
1120 2013-01-17 19:04:37 <Cylta> but old coins that has been spend in non-primary-chain will stay spended?
1121 2013-01-17 19:05:07 <kjj> ok, that's the tricky part. if you spend in the smaller fork, but not the longer fork, then those transactions will eventually end up in the main chain
1122 2013-01-17 19:05:23 <Cylta> okay, i think I get it
1123 2013-01-17 19:05:31 <kjj> but, if a transaction in the longer fork invalidates a transaction, that transaction, and any that depend on it, will be overturned
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1125 2013-01-17 19:06:08 <kjj> the mining reward is just a special case of that. it was real, but it got overturned and nothing that uses it will still be valid
1126 2013-01-17 19:06:27 <kjj> my advice, don't try this.
1127 2013-01-17 19:06:46 <Cylta> okay... so it's safe to accept old coins but new coins (recently mined) preferable to wait till several confirmation to avoid accepting coins from non-primary chain..
1128 2013-01-17 19:06:56 <kjj> no, totally not safe at all
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1131 2013-01-17 19:07:33 <kjj> while you are on a fork, you are on the honor system. anyone that sees both sides of the split can spend on both of them, and the bigger side will win when they reconnect
1132 2013-01-17 19:07:36 <Cylta> but transaction is valid, why it shoudl be reversed once broadcasted?
1133 2013-01-17 19:07:47 <Cylta> oh..
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1135 2013-01-17 19:08:21 <Cylta> so, even old coins may be spended in both (non-primary and primary) blockchains at the same time..
1136 2013-01-17 19:08:35 <Cylta> okay, i did not thought about it.
1137 2013-01-17 19:08:38 <kjj> say I send you coins using transaction A1 on the smaller fork. while forked, I spend the same coins back to myself using transaction A2. they are both valid, but when the split ends, A2 will be deep in the chain, while A1 will be in memory
1138 2013-01-17 19:10:38 <Cylta> so, is there any way to separate network in different regious to avoid spending from one region to another? for example keep in memory all coins that was in local blockchain and in alien blockchain?
1139 2013-01-17 19:10:41 <kjj> if everyone is honest, and if the network partition is total, then it will sort itself out eventually
1140 2013-01-17 19:11:06 <kjj> you can only do that if you accept that the fork is permanent
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1142 2013-01-17 19:11:49 <Cylta> i just trying to imagine how this system may work in case of physical separation of regions..
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1144 2013-01-17 19:11:59 <kjj> well, stop. :)
1145 2013-01-17 19:12:29 <kjj> instead, figure out how you can get real blocks into the isolated region, ending the split
1146 2013-01-17 19:12:54 <Cylta> via pidgins and flashdrive =)
1147 2013-01-17 19:13:16 <Cylta> anyway, i have to go. thank you
1148 2013-01-17 19:13:17 <kjj> packet radio is probably a far better choice
1149 2013-01-17 19:13:42 <kjj> but CDs in the mail would work if you don't mind waiting 500 or so confirmations
1150 2013-01-17 19:13:48 <kjj> see ya
1151 2013-01-17 19:14:41 <Luke-Jr> kjj: anyone that sees both sides of the split will bridge the two and elimiate the shorter one ;P
1152 2013-01-17 19:15:03 <kjj> Luke-Jr: anyone honest that sees both sides of the split...
1153 2013-01-17 19:15:17 <kjj> anyone dishonest that sees both sides of the split has doubled their money overnight
1154 2013-01-17 19:15:24 <Luke-Jr> kjj: well, if they're dishonest they won't spend the same on both sides ;p
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1163 2013-01-17 19:30:15 * jgarzik wonders what the weekly data traffic for bitcoin blockchain
1164 2013-01-17 19:36:28 <jgarzik> *what is
1165 2013-01-17 19:36:35 <jgarzik> might fit on a CD
1166 2013-01-17 19:36:43 <kjj> probably would in most weeks
1167 2013-01-17 19:37:12 <gmaxwell> it certantly would now. It would fit on a mini-dvd in any case.
1168 2013-01-17 19:37:19 <kjj> max is 1008 MB in a week. most blocks aren't max
1169 2013-01-17 19:38:04 <gmaxwell> (an 8cm dvd is 1.4GB)
1170 2013-01-17 19:38:05 <kjj> oh, and oddly enough, there is probably enough redundancy in the transactions to allow a bit of compression
1171 2013-01-17 19:39:06 <gmaxwell> a month would be a good fit on dvd.
1172 2013-01-17 19:41:40 <kjj> to de-isolate a network, you'd want to go daily though
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1175 2013-01-17 19:42:48 <gmaxwell> kjj: thats what the satellite feed is for.
1176 2013-01-17 19:43:01 <andytoshi> kjj: to de-isolate a network, a bitcoin-SMTP gateway would be better
1177 2013-01-17 19:43:11 <andytoshi> then you could pile GPG on top
1178 2013-01-17 19:43:29 <gmaxwell> That might get blocked. You need blockchain in cat pictures. :P
1179 2013-01-17 19:43:38 <andytoshi> haha
1180 2013-01-17 19:44:06 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1181 2013-01-17 19:44:20 <kjj> well, if the network isolation isn't total, it is trivial anyway.
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1183 2013-01-17 19:45:17 <BlueMatt> Ill do that this weekend (maybe tomorrow)
1184 2013-01-17 19:45:17 <BlueMatt> ehh...missed the /msg on that one
1185 2013-01-17 19:45:32 <kjj> the data rate of bitcoin currently is low enough that you could do it over crazy old tech. a dry pair should be plenty
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1191 2013-01-17 19:47:05 * andytoshi andytoshi just watched johnny mnemonic
1192 2013-01-17 19:47:12 <gmaxwell> cloud bounce optical.
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1200 2013-01-17 19:48:42 <kjj> that sort of transmission would actually be tough. you'd need either a lot of optical power on the sending side, or a lot of DSP power on the receiving side
1201 2013-01-17 19:50:30 <kjj> so, I'm thinking about writing a TOR hidden service that accepts raw transactions over a socket, and forwards them to the bitcoin network
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1203 2013-01-17 19:51:37 <gmaxwell> kjj: http://reast.asn.au/optical/288_km_Cloudbouce_from_Tasmania_to_the_Australian_Mainland.pdf
1204 2013-01-17 19:51:38 <andytoshi> if you've got tor, you can find an exit node in a free country anyway
1205 2013-01-17 19:51:41 <andytoshi> and do bitcoin directly
1206 2013-01-17 19:51:47 <TD> kjj: er, why not just run a bitcoin node as a hidden service
1207 2013-01-17 19:52:02 <andytoshi> oh, that too :P
1208 2013-01-17 19:52:27 <kjj> oh, I didn't think it would be the most useful service around. I just want to play with TOR now
1209 2013-01-17 19:52:40 <andytoshi> fair enough
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1211 2013-01-17 19:53:23 <kjj> but it would be kinda handy for people that want to hide the source of their spends
1212 2013-01-17 19:53:43 <gmaxwell> kjj: a high latency mixnet for bitcoin transactions would be interesting.
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1219 2013-01-17 20:03:42 <TD> kjj: well picking a bitcoin node at random, connecting to it and sending it your transactions is nearly as good. nobody can really know where it came from
1220 2013-01-17 20:08:10 <gmaxwell> TD: the tor network in general is _highly_ vulnerable to traffic analysis from broad network observers. On a one-shot transaction its probably fine, but for persistant traffic less so.
1221 2013-01-17 20:10:21 <andytoshi> gmaxwell, what's the best way for me to learn TLS/openSSL well enough to implement an onion router?
1222 2013-01-17 20:10:39 <andytoshi> i'm slowly working on my mixnet, but it's all research at this point and i have other priorities
1223 2013-01-17 20:11:39 <TD> openssl is pretty horrible
1224 2013-01-17 20:13:05 <andytoshi> yes, but it's got decades of work put into it and the best license of any similar project
1225 2013-01-17 20:13:18 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1226 2013-01-17 20:13:25 <andytoshi> i'm definitely NOT implementing my own crypto
1227 2013-01-17 20:13:54 <TD> sure, i meant the API rather than the actual abilities of the lib
1228 2013-01-17 20:14:18 <andytoshi> yeah, it's too bad
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1235 2013-01-17 20:33:11 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: the relevant RFCs.
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1237 2013-01-17 20:36:12 <andytoshi> thanks, i'll read those
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1239 2013-01-17 20:39:56 <Diapolo> the bloom stuff got merged, is there now any schedule update :)?
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1244 2013-01-17 20:54:58 <jgarzik> Diapolo: the schedule is the same: as soon as ultraprune is stable :)
1245 2013-01-17 20:55:08 <jgarzik> Diapolo: bloom filters did not impact that at all
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1247 2013-01-17 20:59:04 <Diapolo> jgarzik: thanks guess that damn leveldb17 branch is the showstopper now
1248 2013-01-17 20:59:30 <TD> gavinandresen: how will you decide when ultraprune is stable enough to start with 0.8 rcs?
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1252 2013-01-17 21:01:02 <TD> that's odd
1253 2013-01-17 21:01:08 <TD> i can't edit the bloom filter BIP wiki page anymore
1254 2013-01-17 21:02:08 <gavinandresen> TD: I'll roll two six-sided dice, and if they come up eleven then it's stable enough.
1255 2013-01-17 21:02:30 <TD> sounds legit
1256 2013-01-17 21:02:53 <gavinandresen> TD: no, seriously, I think we are very close. The upgrade/downgrade tests went pretty well
1257 2013-01-17 21:03:00 <TD> cool
1258 2013-01-17 21:04:57 <Diapolo> sounds nice
1259 2013-01-17 21:05:09 <Scrat> do you use snappy with leveldb?
1260 2013-01-17 21:06:32 <Diapolo> I'm rather sure there was a commit, which removes snappy support, so most likely no ^^.
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1262 2013-01-17 21:08:00 <helo> fap
1263 2013-01-17 21:08:35 <Scrat> helo: must not
1264 2013-01-17 21:08:51 <TD> i think snappy is a compile time option
1265 2013-01-17 21:08:55 <TD> don't recall
1266 2013-01-17 21:09:42 <jgarzik> TD: in the past: once a BIP is considered done, the BIP Editor would lock the BIP webpage, and copy it off to some repo or somesuch
1267 2013-01-17 21:10:01 <jgarzik> TD: maybe that process is still in place, even though genjix isn't a very... active BIP editor
1268 2013-01-17 21:10:48 <TD> irritating. the BIP process doesn't work that well
1269 2013-01-17 21:11:29 <Diapolo> TD: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/bd80b3261e695ed7ef9441ab8996d46472677dd1 ^^
1270 2013-01-17 21:11:55 <TD> ok
1271 2013-01-17 21:13:16 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell is (I believe) taking over from genjix as BIP editor. Unless one of you want to volunteer
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1273 2013-01-17 21:19:22 <gmaxwell> I swapped the instructions and setup some email rules so I wouldn't miss number allocations requests.
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1277 2013-01-17 21:24:39 <Diapolo> which is the makefile in gitian for the Windows cross-compile, I always forget that ... makefile.linux-mingw?
1278 2013-01-17 21:26:02 <sipa> Diapolo: indeed
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1281 2013-01-17 21:27:43 <Diapolo> sipa: I see that one and makefile.mingw seem to diverge slowly (noticed while looking at the leveldb17 branch)
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1283 2013-01-17 21:42:55 <TD> gavinandresen: is there a chance of child-pays-for-parent landing anytime soon?
1284 2013-01-17 21:43:51 <gavinandresen> TD: not for 0.8. I haven't had a chance to review Luke's code, and since it has been sitting in the pull queue it has had two very serious bugs, so it needs careful review
1285 2013-01-17 21:43:58 <TD> ok
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1339 2013-01-17 22:57:15 <Luke-Jr> TD[gone]`: BIP seems to be more or less working fine to me - note that MT and nanotube recently changed the wiki to require a 0.05 BTC payment to edit, though
1340 2013-01-17 22:57:22 <Luke-Jr> one-time, just to deter spammers
1341 2013-01-17 22:58:37 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Special:BitcoinPayment
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1345 2013-01-17 23:02:29 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: can we get that reverted for devs?
1346 2013-01-17 23:02:54 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: you could ask one of the moderators to add you to the whitelist manually, but seriously it's just 0.05 BTCâ¦
1347 2013-01-17 23:03:02 <BlueMatt> well, ok...
1348 2013-01-17 23:03:10 <Luke-Jr> seems a reasonable anti-spam one-time-fee IMO
1349 2013-01-17 23:03:18 <BlueMatt> yea, its not enough to really worry about
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1351 2013-01-17 23:04:32 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: Verified contributors are the ones bringing value to the wiki. It doesn't make sense to make contributors also pay. I paid the fee.
1352 2013-01-17 23:06:03 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: It might also have been interesting to tie it into the -otc or X trading value at one of the exchanges. The WoT for example would be an interesting way to moderate edits.
1353 2013-01-17 23:07:36 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: WoT raw rating count is useless
1354 2013-01-17 23:07:51 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: trust has to have a perspective, which would mean someone has to maintain that perspective
1355 2013-01-17 23:08:35 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: No, just the existence of one. 0.05 BTC is worth approx 75cents, which is approximately the effort required to participate in the WoT.
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1357 2013-01-17 23:11:33 <helo> one could pretty easily setup a script to create a network of wot identities that rate each other
1358 2013-01-17 23:11:53 <helo> can't really set up a script to make a bunch of 0.05 BTC payments cheaply
1359 2013-01-17 23:12:43 <Eliel> helo: still, that is somewhat detectable due to the whole group being isolated from others.
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1361 2013-01-17 23:14:11 <helo> sounds like an arms race
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1363 2013-01-17 23:15:22 <Eliel> helo: yeah, WoT doesn't really work unless you're a part of it.
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1375 2013-01-17 23:57:28 <midnightmagic> helo: Someone could easily set up a script to create 20+ socks for a single bitcoin... same difference.
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