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  5 2013-01-18 00:22:32 <sipa> etotheipi_: just read the very last post in your compression tree... a high branching factor also means a lot of data to rehash to computer the hash entry in the parent
  6 2013-01-18 00:24:09 <vayob> guess it's more sadness for stamit, but hey, he's only bringing it upon himself, obviously! he can just choose to be happy! ... ban in 10... 9... 8... ...
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  8 2013-01-18 00:28:06 <etotheipi_> sipa: it would interesting to quit speculating and just write a branch-factor-configurable trie implementation and look at the disk usage and access speed across it for the current blockchain
  9 2013-01-18 00:28:42 <sipa> etotheipi_: yeah
 10 2013-01-18 00:29:18 <sipa> after those 32767 other things on my todo list
 11 2013-01-18 00:29:24 <etotheipi_> exactly
 12 2013-01-18 00:29:31 <sipa> haha
 13 2013-01-18 00:29:43 <sipa> 1) write todo list
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 15 2013-01-18 00:30:09 <etotheipi_> well it wouldn't hurt for me to do it, since that would take me one step closer to getting something useful for prototyping what's in that thread
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 77 2013-01-18 02:41:13 <debiantoruser> Where i can find those people who edit en.bitcoin.it/wiki?
 78 2013-01-18 02:41:34 <SomeoneWeird> you can edit it yourself
 79 2013-01-18 02:41:42 <SomeoneWeird> but it now costs 0.05btc to signup
 80 2013-01-18 02:42:21 <debiantoruser> it is ugly capitalism way
 81 2013-01-18 02:42:43 <debiantoruser> i'm find mistake, on this page https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Satoshi_Client_Initialization_and_Startup
 82 2013-01-18 02:43:05 <debiantoruser> string: Last, if not compiled for the GUI it sleeps for 5 seonds in an infinite loop.
 83 2013-01-18 02:43:26 <debiantoruser> i just want to change seonds to seconds, i must pay 0.05 btc?
 84 2013-01-18 02:43:35 <debiantoruser> i'm already registered user
 85 2013-01-18 02:43:43 <debiantoruser> but there is no option - Edit
 86 2013-01-18 02:44:02 <Guest97407> the 0.05BTC is just a (desperate) way of avoiding spam
 87 2013-01-18 02:44:25 <debiantoruser> i say, i just want to fix mistake!
 88 2013-01-18 02:44:44 <SomeoneWeird> the 0.05btc fee was actually implemented yesterday..
 89 2013-01-18 02:45:24 <debiantoruser> i'm registered 2 days ago
 90 2013-01-18 02:45:57 <SomeoneWeird> yeah, the groups didn't get merged, so you still have to pay
 91 2013-01-18 02:46:08 <debiantoruser> Number of edits:1
 92 2013-01-18 02:46:11 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 93 2013-01-18 02:46:25 <debiantoruser> i'm edit two days ago without pay!
 94 2013-01-18 02:46:48 <SomeoneWeird> as I said.. it was implemented yesterday
 95 2013-01-18 02:47:13 <debiantoruser> SomeoneWeird, must i pay or not?
 96 2013-01-18 02:47:17 <Luke-Jr> debiantoruser: it's under $1
 97 2013-01-18 02:47:18 <SomeoneWeird> you must
 98 2013-01-18 02:47:32 <Luke-Jr> debiantoruser: the spam was getting unmanagable
 99 2013-01-18 02:47:41 <debiantoruser> Why? i'm registered Two days ago, the day before it was implemented
100 2013-01-18 02:47:45 <Luke-Jr> taking up significant time of developers who have better things to do
101 2013-01-18 02:47:49 <SomeoneWeird> <SomeoneWeird> yeah, the groups didn't get merged, so you still have to pay
102 2013-01-18 02:48:00 <SomeoneWeird> you have to pay to get moved into the "trusted" group, so you can post
103 2013-01-18 02:48:37 <Guest97407> I gave gave 1BTC instead of 0.05 myself, they deserve the donation
104 2013-01-18 02:48:59 <SomeoneWeird> the money actually goto the bitcoin foundation, afaik
105 2013-01-18 02:49:12 <SomeoneWeird> ;;calc [ticker --last]*0.05
106 2013-01-18 02:49:12 <gribble> 0.7950015
107 2013-01-18 02:49:18 <SomeoneWeird> 80 cents
108 2013-01-18 02:51:43 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: would probably be a good idea to document where it goes, I guess
109 2013-01-18 02:51:46 <Luke-Jr> nanotube: ^
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113 2013-01-18 02:55:12 <nanotube> debiantoruser: log out then go back to the login page - you'll see a link to instructions on how to verify.
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115 2013-01-18 02:56:29 <nanotube> it's only a trivial amount, 0.05 btc, to thwart spammers but not be of import to normal users.
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117 2013-01-18 02:58:32 <nanotube> Luke-Jr: ^ it's on the login page, fyi.
118 2013-01-18 02:58:54 <nanotube> maybe not the best for people who already happen to be logged in... but it was the easiest place to put it where "everyone can see it"
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120 2013-01-18 03:02:35 <nanotube> debiantoruser: fixed the typo you noticed, btw.
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123 2013-01-18 03:15:27 <debiantoruser> It should be devcoins
124 2013-01-18 03:15:44 <debiantoruser> Looks like you guys, go crazy
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129 2013-01-18 03:28:23 * debiantoruser flash!
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155 2013-01-18 04:29:35 <debiantoruser> nanotube:  The client includes a list of nost names for
156 2013-01-18 04:29:38 <debiantoruser> nost/host
157 2013-01-18 04:29:39 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
158 2013-01-18 04:29:57 <debiantoruser> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Satoshi_Client_Node_Discovery
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160 2013-01-18 04:33:16 <nanotube> debiantoruser: thanks. :) if you're really not in the mood for sending 0.05 btc to verify your wiki account, just give me your verification address and i can send 0.05 btc for you. >_>
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163 2013-01-18 04:37:38 <Luke-Jr> lol nanotube
164 2013-01-18 04:37:48 <nanotube> :)
165 2013-01-18 04:38:15 * Diablo-D3 renames nanotube 
166 2013-01-18 04:38:24 <Diablo-D3> you shall be now known as picocube!
167 2013-01-18 04:38:32 nanotube is now known as picotube
168 2013-01-18 04:38:36 <picotube> zomg it worked!  >_>
169 2013-01-18 04:38:42 <Diablo-D3> I choose you, Picotube!
170 2013-01-18 04:38:54 picotube is now known as picachube
171 2013-01-18 04:39:00 <debiantoruser> nanotube 1Dq8HL5KfS7VAtdHceW4f1QnHq9V4dDEFz
172 2013-01-18 04:39:00 <Diablo-D3> lol
173 2013-01-18 04:39:04 picachube is now known as nanotube
174 2013-01-18 04:39:43 <debiantoruser> Cheers! i'll read tutorial and make little fixes
175 2013-01-18 04:40:27 forrestv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
176 2013-01-18 04:42:12 <nanotube> debiantoruser: sent. what's your wiki username?
177 2013-01-18 04:42:19 <debiantoruser> an0nymous
178 2013-01-18 04:42:25 <Diablo-D3> seriously?
179 2013-01-18 04:42:28 <Diablo-D3> thats your wiki username?
180 2013-01-18 04:42:30 <nanotube> https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&group=trusted <- well there you are
181 2013-01-18 04:42:32 <Arnavion> I can't believe that was still available
182 2013-01-18 04:42:47 <Diablo-D3> Arnavion: probably needed the 0
183 2013-01-18 04:43:02 * Luke-Jr wonders if an0nymous sounds familiar as a troll <.<
184 2013-01-18 04:43:14 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: its not a unique nick
185 2013-01-18 04:43:25 <Diablo-D3> its no different than the 9000 cereal killers out there
186 2013-01-18 04:43:25 <Arnavion> >Anonymous (Talk) (Created on 23 January 2012 at 02:37)
187 2013-01-18 04:43:27 <debiantoruser> An0nymous‏‎ (Trusted user) (Talk) (Created on 16 January 2013 at 23:23)
188 2013-01-18 04:43:28 <Arnavion> Ha
189 2013-01-18 04:43:31 <debiantoruser> Thanx
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191 2013-01-18 04:44:41 <nanotube> debiantoruser: np, gl :)
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232 2013-01-18 07:18:25 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135856.msg1461370#msg1461370
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235 2013-01-18 07:25:22 <SomeoneWeird> HEH
236 2013-01-18 07:25:24 <SomeoneWeird> caps
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369 2013-01-18 13:43:55 <ThomasV> is https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0013 accurate to describe what the current client does? it says 'draft'
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371 2013-01-18 13:45:25 <Luke-Jr> ThomasV: afaik, but it's just the address format
372 2013-01-18 13:46:08 <ThomasV> sure, but the address format is kind of needed, if I want to implement p2sh
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376 2013-01-18 13:46:44 <ThomasV> gavinandresen:  https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0013 <-- no longer a draft?
377 2013-01-18 13:47:42 datagutt has joined
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379 2013-01-18 13:56:16 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: right, no longer a draft. I don't have permission to edit those pages, though.
380 2013-01-18 13:57:15 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: I'm implementing multisig in Electrum. any other useful resource?
381 2013-01-18 13:57:56 t7 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
382 2013-01-18 13:57:58 <ThomasV> bip 11 I guess
383 2013-01-18 13:58:27 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: I've got a few gists related to multisig… lemme find them
384 2013-01-18 13:58:36 m0mchil has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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386 2013-01-18 13:59:33 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: https://gist.github.com/4039433  https://gist.github.com/3161162
387 2013-01-18 13:59:35 Jamesz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
388 2013-01-18 14:00:04 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: OAuth failure
389 2013-01-18 14:00:43 <ThomasV> my nick on github is 'ecdsa'
390 2013-01-18 14:00:49 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: weird, they're both public gists
391 2013-01-18 14:01:28 <t7`> ThomasV, nice
392 2013-01-18 14:01:36 paraipan has joined
393 2013-01-18 14:01:39 <t7`> well until quantum computers make it obsolete
394 2013-01-18 14:02:00 <ThomasV> t7`: it's just because ThomasV was taken by someone else
395 2013-01-18 14:02:11 <t7`> i have a repo called ecdsa
396 2013-01-18 14:02:26 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: dunno why you'd get an OAuth failure, maybe you need to refresh your github cookies
397 2013-01-18 14:03:33 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: it works now. ty
398 2013-01-18 14:04:42 <ThomasV> oh but that's not really what I'm looking for :)
399 2013-01-18 14:05:38 <ThomasV> well, I guess the scriptsig from bitcoind should be enough
400 2013-01-18 14:07:16 <gavinandresen> you're writing code to build a scriptPubkey given a BIP13 address?  That should be pretty trivial....
401 2013-01-18 14:09:06 <ThomasV> it should be, but it would probably be easier if I could see an example :)
402 2013-01-18 14:09:56 <Luke-Jr> ThomasV: https://gitorious.org/bitcoin/libblkmaker/blobs/master/base58.c
403 2013-01-18 14:10:06 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: it's not as trivial as it seems in C :/
404 2013-01-18 14:11:33 <gavinandresen> Should be something like:  decode the base58 like an old bitcoin address.  Then take the 20-byte hash and surround it by HASH160 and EQUAL…  instead of DUP HASH160 and EQUALVERIFY CHECKSIG
405 2013-01-18 14:11:52 <Luke-Jr> yeah, decoding base58 is a pain
406 2013-01-18 14:12:10 <gavinandresen> I assume Electrum already has code to deal with that
407 2013-01-18 14:15:35 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: where is OP_CHECKMULTISIG involved?
408 2013-01-18 14:16:48 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: when the transaction is spent.
409 2013-01-18 14:19:58 <ThomasV> do you have the txid of a transaction redeeming a multisig address?
410 2013-01-18 14:20:15 <ThomasV> so I can see an example
411 2013-01-18 14:20:35 agricocb has joined
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413 2013-01-18 14:20:49 <gavinandresen> http://blockchain.info/address/3QJmV3qfvL9SuYo34YihAf3sRCW3qSinyC
414 2013-01-18 14:21:02 <kjj> https://gist.github.com/3966071
415 2013-01-18 14:21:05 <ThomasV> great thanks
416 2013-01-18 14:21:34 <gavinandresen> bah, but blockchain.info doesn't show the input scripts correctly….
417 2013-01-18 14:22:37 <ThomasV> no, it says OP_FALSE :(
418 2013-01-18 14:22:43 da2ce747 has joined
419 2013-01-18 14:22:45 <ThomasV> anyway, I'll find it
420 2013-01-18 14:23:22 b4epoche has joined
421 2013-01-18 14:23:24 <kjj> if you follow along in his gist, you can find the transactions that you need
422 2013-01-18 14:24:34 porquilho has joined
423 2013-01-18 14:24:38 <Luke-Jr> https://coinbase.com/network/transactions/837dea37ddc8b1e3ce646f1a656e79bbd8cc7f558ac56a169626d649ebe2a3ba
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425 2013-01-18 14:25:44 <kjj> 3c9018e8d5615c306d72397f8f5eef44308c98fb576a88e030c25456b4f3a7ac  <-- transaction that sends TO p2sh
426 2013-01-18 14:26:03 <kjj> 837dea37ddc8b1e3ce646f1a656e79bbd8cc7f558ac56a169626d649ebe2a3ba  <-- transaction that redeems it
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452 2013-01-18 15:16:59 <nanotube> gavinandresen: bips unprotected at luke's request, fyi. so now you can go edit that bip you wanted to edit. :)
453 2013-01-18 15:17:27 t7` has quit (Quit: Leaving)
454 2013-01-18 15:18:23 <ThomasV> nanotube: why was the wiki protected?
455 2013-01-18 15:19:25 <nanotube> some bips were protected by genjix, possibly because he wanted to reduce spam or edit-warring
456 2013-01-18 15:19:36 <nanotube> but now that we are bitcoinpayment-protected, at least spam shouldn't be a concern.
457 2013-01-18 15:19:50 theorbtwo has joined
458 2013-01-18 15:19:52 <nanotube> we can always take it on a case by case basis if there's future trouble
459 2013-01-18 15:21:59 <ThomasV> bitcoinpayment-protected? huh?
460 2013-01-18 15:22:01 owowo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
461 2013-01-18 15:22:52 <nanotube> ah, because there was a steady stream of spam coming into the wiki
462 2013-01-18 15:23:14 <nanotube> so now... you have to send a trivial bitcoin amount to enable editing
463 2013-01-18 15:23:22 <nanotube> which spammers won't do obv.
464 2013-01-18 15:23:44 <nanotube> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BitcoinPayment
465 2013-01-18 15:24:22 owowo has joined
466 2013-01-18 15:24:32 <ThomasV> wtf? 0.05 btc ransom?
467 2013-01-18 15:24:50 <jeremias> ol
468 2013-01-18 15:24:52 <jeremias> +l
469 2013-01-18 15:24:57 <ThomasV> Electrum's localization project is hosted on the wiki...
470 2013-01-18 15:25:03 <jeremias> pretty cool idea
471 2013-01-18 15:25:05 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
472 2013-01-18 15:25:13 <ThomasV> time to move away, or accept it?
473 2013-01-18 15:25:30 <jeremias> ThomasV: well, maybe you can move it somewhere else?
474 2013-01-18 15:25:39 <ThomasV> I guess some translators might be deterred*
475 2013-01-18 15:25:40 <jeremias> I guess the spammers are running those scam sites
476 2013-01-18 15:25:46 terryww has joined
477 2013-01-18 15:26:10 <jeremias> or only enable the plugin to specific sites
478 2013-01-18 15:27:09 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: ok, I successfully decoded the transaction you gave me :)
479 2013-01-18 15:27:23 vampireb has joined
480 2013-01-18 15:29:52 TD_ has joined
481 2013-01-18 15:30:08 <nanotube> ThomasV: you can always offer to pay 0.05 btc for those who are deterred.
482 2013-01-18 15:30:39 TD_ is now known as TD
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484 2013-01-18 15:32:19 <ThomasV> nanotube: can you unprotect the Electrum/Translation page?
485 2013-01-18 15:32:49 <jgarzik> nanotube: neat idea!
486 2013-01-18 15:32:59 <jgarzik> I like it
487 2013-01-18 15:33:15 <nanotube> jgarzik: yep, we figured the /bitcoin wiki/ is uniquely amenable to bitcoin-hashcash like protection from spam. :)
488 2013-01-18 15:33:50 <nanotube> ThomasV: i can't unprotect individual pages from bitcoinpayment. i'm sure mtux hasn't coded that in.
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494 2013-01-18 15:35:08 <nanotube> i'm sure translators will enjoy lack of spam on their translations also. :)
495 2013-01-18 15:35:37 <TD> nanotube: i made the following proposal on the tor-talk list
496 2013-01-18 15:35:40 rdymac has joined
497 2013-01-18 15:35:51 <ThomasV> nanotube: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Special:RecentChanges huh?
498 2013-01-18 15:36:00 <nanotube> ThomasV: and you can always post a message on the translation project main page that you're willing to pay for them. hell, i'll give you 1btc if you need, that should last for 20 people. :)
499 2013-01-18 15:36:03 <TD> make 10 transactions in a row (roughly) that spend some non-trivial amount of money to miner fees all together
500 2013-01-18 15:36:20 <ThomasV> nanotube: oh, got it. they were sysop protected
501 2013-01-18 15:36:26 <nanotube> ThomasV: ah, that's the 'usual wiki protection' preventing pages from being edited by non-administrators.
502 2013-01-18 15:36:29 <nanotube> yep
503 2013-01-18 15:36:33 <TD> the transactions and their merkle branches together, along with the pubkeys needed by the corresponding outputs, can be put into a protocol buffer. the hash of the protobuf is your new identity
504 2013-01-18 15:36:57 <TD> you can sign server-provided nonces with the keys needed to create the "sacrifice" to prove you own it. the data blob is like a certificate
505 2013-01-18 15:37:07 <TD> now you can create difficult-to-produce identities suitable for authentication
506 2013-01-18 15:37:24 <nanotube> TD: heh cool. similar to my old 'distributed dns using bitcoin transactions' idea. :)
507 2013-01-18 15:38:39 <nanotube> (which was frowned upon due to blockchain spam, since it was also storing extra data in the blockchain)
508 2013-01-18 15:40:16 <TD> well, i suspect anonymous identities are a lot less common than domain names
509 2013-01-18 15:40:20 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
510 2013-01-18 15:40:51 <TD> but nowadays that we nearly have pruning, as long as various schemes have some obvious utility and don't bloat the UTXO set it's a bit easier to justify. most nodes don't have to pay the cost of your scheme. in this case, the outputs could get pruned away.
511 2013-01-18 15:40:58 <nanotube> yes - and also not requiring storing extra info in the transactions.
512 2013-01-18 15:41:01 <TD> right
513 2013-01-18 15:41:10 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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515 2013-01-18 15:41:56 <nanotube> so how did the torpeople take it? :)
516 2013-01-18 15:42:01 <TD> seemed to like it
517 2013-01-18 15:42:04 <nanotube> col
518 2013-01-18 15:42:05 <TD> a few anyway
519 2013-01-18 15:42:07 <nanotube> o
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521 2013-01-18 15:42:13 <TD> hard to say if anyone will implement it
522 2013-01-18 15:42:27 <nanotube> hehe true, it's a long way from liking to implementation ...
523 2013-01-18 15:43:55 <gavinandresen> TD: interesting discussions on tor-talk are bad for my productivity….
524 2013-01-18 15:44:33 * nanotube wonders if we should make a list of things that could be bitcoin-protected against the cheap-pseudonyms problem. lower the barrier to people coming up with them and implementing them. :)
525 2013-01-18 15:44:37 <TD> i never saw you post there though :)
526 2013-01-18 15:44:52 <TD> nanotube: i suggested starting with a MediaWiki extension, maybe Wordpress as they're already bitcoin friendly
527 2013-01-18 15:44:56 <TD> the actual thread was about gmail
528 2013-01-18 15:44:59 <gavinandresen> TD: I never did, I'm not a subscriber.  I'm browsing the archives instead of doing what I should be doing
529 2013-01-18 15:45:00 <TD> so i was posting with my google security hat on
530 2013-01-18 15:45:03 <TD> ah
531 2013-01-18 15:45:18 <nanotube> heh
532 2013-01-18 15:45:43 <TD> i'm thinking we might want a minor change to the bloom filtering protocol
533 2013-01-18 15:45:57 <gavinandresen> already?  I just pulled it yesterday!
534 2013-01-18 15:46:02 <TD> will discuss with Matt when he's online.
535 2013-01-18 15:46:02 <TD> well
536 2013-01-18 15:46:05 <TD> it's something we debated before
537 2013-01-18 15:46:18 <TD> and i discovered that there's an edge case in bitcoinj that's a bit of a pain to fix with the current way he did things. it's not a big change.
538 2013-01-18 15:46:29 <TD> basically right now, when you ask for a block, you get the transactions in it first, then a filtered block
539 2013-01-18 15:46:34 <TD> the change i'm thinking of is to reverse them
540 2013-01-18 15:46:42 <TD> filtered block first, then the transactions in it
541 2013-01-18 15:46:44 <sipa> TD: that makes sense
542 2013-01-18 15:46:51 <sipa> i expected it to be block first
543 2013-01-18 15:47:09 <stealth222> if you get the block why do you also need the transactions/
544 2013-01-18 15:47:21 <stealth222> ?
545 2013-01-18 15:47:24 <TD> i asked matt to do it that way originally but he seemed to think it was simpler to implement in bitcoinj the other way around. but looking at some of the issues, i'm not convinced it is. especially with recursive resolution of mempool transactions (eg to find timed txns)
546 2013-01-18 15:47:28 <TD> it's just a pain
547 2013-01-18 15:47:48 <TD> also it means apps see the tx as pending first and then in a block a moment afterwards, which can complicate UI notification logic, etc
548 2013-01-18 15:47:59 <TD> stealth222: filtered block messages don't include the actual transactions
549 2013-01-18 15:48:11 <sipa> stealth222: filtered blocks only contains txids, and not txn
550 2013-01-18 15:48:26 <stealth222> oh
551 2013-01-18 15:48:44 <stealth222> then why send the txs at all? if you have the txids, you could ask for the ones you want afterwards
552 2013-01-18 15:49:03 <sipa> the P2P protocol doesn't allow querying arbitrary transactions, only recently relayed ones
553 2013-01-18 15:49:19 <stealth222> oh, hmm
554 2013-01-18 15:49:24 <TD> yeah. it's kind of an odd construction.
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556 2013-01-18 15:49:37 <sipa> one solution could be to make them guaranteed to be relayable for some time
557 2013-01-18 15:49:49 <TD> it works but when you start looking at the integration with gui apps and what APIs are natural and things, it's not really helpful to have them come first. you'd end up having to buffer them anyway.
558 2013-01-18 15:50:07 <sipa> but from a latency point of view, it makes sense to immediately send the transactions you think the receiver doesn't know about
559 2013-01-18 15:50:13 <sipa> ... actually
560 2013-01-18 15:50:18 <TD> right. it's done that way for latency reasons.
561 2013-01-18 15:50:22 <sipa> what if you're connected to 8 peers?
562 2013-01-18 15:50:33 <sipa> you'll get all new-in-block txn 8 times
563 2013-01-18 15:50:58 <TD> currently bcj only ever downloads from a single peer
564 2013-01-18 15:51:16 <sipa> sure, but that's not the only use case we intend, right?
565 2013-01-18 15:51:21 <TD> but yeah, a flag that lets you opt out of immediately receiving transactions might be useful for cases where you just want to compare blocks, eg, to spot a peer that's lying through omission.
566 2013-01-18 15:51:44 <TD> well, is there another use case for downloading the same blocks multiple times?
567 2013-01-18 15:51:53 <gavinandresen> wouldn't you just give different peers different bloom filters?
568 2013-01-18 15:52:03 <gavinandresen> (with some overlap)
569 2013-01-18 15:52:07 <sipa> TD: good point
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571 2013-01-18 15:52:23 <sipa> the deduplication should happen at the point of the block invs
572 2013-01-18 15:52:27 * TD -> tgif pre-preso, back later
573 2013-01-18 15:52:47 * gavinandresen wonders what pre-preso means
574 2013-01-18 15:53:03 <stealth222> it's an espresso you have before you have an espresso
575 2013-01-18 15:53:35 <gavinandresen> that's about what I was thinking.  Some coffee thing (I never learned to like the stuff)
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577 2013-01-18 15:54:06 <sipa> pre-presentation
578 2013-01-18 15:54:29 <gavinandresen> sipa:  I've lost track of the motivation for the switch to LevelDB1.7 / no-boost-Leveldb.  There are problems on Windows with what is in git HEAD now?
579 2013-01-18 15:55:33 <sipa> gavinandresen: i did it because of reports of slowness / high memory usage on windows
580 2013-01-18 15:55:47 <sipa> but i'm not sure at all whether those have improved
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582 2013-01-18 15:56:08 <gavinandresen> sipa: ah, ok.
583 2013-01-18 15:56:20 <sipa> though in general moving to leveldb 1.7 and a more modern build environment is useful i think
584 2013-01-18 15:57:11 <gavinandresen> sipa: I agree
585 2013-01-18 15:57:27 <sipa> the native windows env is the most risky part, imho
586 2013-01-18 15:57:45 <gavinandresen> native windows env??  what do you mean?
587 2013-01-18 15:57:54 <sipa> non-boost windows leveldb env
588 2013-01-18 15:58:40 <gavinandresen> do we know what Chrome on Windows is using?
589 2013-01-18 15:58:51 <sipa> they use chrome's own env
590 2013-01-18 15:58:54 <gavinandresen> bah
591 2013-01-18 15:59:22 <sipa> and iirc the leveldb maintainers don't want a boost-based env, but a native one (like this) may have a chance to be merged upstream
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593 2013-01-18 16:00:01 <gavinandresen> makes sense.  I was just hoping not to be the guinea pig for new code
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595 2013-01-18 16:00:27 <sipa> yes, that's what i don't like
596 2013-01-18 16:01:18 <sipa> i think we should at least verify it for things like memory leaks over time
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599 2013-01-18 16:01:50 <sipa> gavinandresen: any benchmark results for 32 vs 64 bit?
600 2013-01-18 16:02:19 nus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
601 2013-01-18 16:02:40 <gavinandresen> yes, full-testnet-sync was 270 seconds 32-bit, 190 seconds 64-bit
602 2013-01-18 16:02:52 <gavinandresen> … which is about what I would expect
603 2013-01-18 16:03:13 <sipa> do you have the actual per-txin timing results?
604 2013-01-18 16:03:34 <gavinandresen> no, but I bet 32-bit is about half as fast.
605 2013-01-18 16:04:07 <sipa> so it would seem, indeed, but full sync does a lot more than just verification
606 2013-01-18 16:04:35 <Hasimir> gavinandresen, thanks for whatever change you made to 0.7.2 that stopped it crashing on Leopard  :)
607 2013-01-18 16:04:38 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
608 2013-01-18 16:05:10 <gavinandresen> Hasimir: you're welcome.  By the way… could you help test the code-signed 0.7.2 release?
609 2013-01-18 16:05:28 <Hasimir> probably
610 2013-01-18 16:05:35 <Hasimir> what needs to be done?
611 2013-01-18 16:06:06 <gavinandresen> Hasimir: turn on Gatekeeper, then download a version of 0.7.2 that is code-signed, and see if it lets you install/run it.
612 2013-01-18 16:06:22 <stealth222> I still can't seem to build for leopard - but I can build for snow leopard and up
613 2013-01-18 16:06:40 <gavinandresen> Hasimir: binary is exactly the same, I just code-signed the .app bundle:  http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.7.2/bitcoin-0.7.2-macosx_signed.dmg/download
614 2013-01-18 16:07:21 <Hasimir> ok
615 2013-01-18 16:07:26 <Hasimir> and gatekeeper?
616 2013-01-18 16:08:00 <gavinandresen> Hasimir: errrp…. wait, you CAN'T test that, you're OSX 10.5…..
617 2013-01-18 16:08:22 <Hasimir> oh well
618 2013-01-18 16:08:34 <gavinandresen> Gatekeeper is new with 10.8.  I think (was it in 10.7 but just off by default?)
619 2013-01-18 16:08:34 <stealth222> I can test it
620 2013-01-18 16:09:08 <gavinandresen> stealth222: cool, thanks.  If it works, I'll switch the default mac and windows downloads to be the code-signed binaries.
621 2013-01-18 16:09:41 <stealth222> you better not be giving me any malware, gavin :p
622 2013-01-18 16:09:54 <stealth222> if my wallet's missing I'll know who to blame
623 2013-01-18 16:10:07 <Hasimir> you still want me to try the code signed version even without gatekeeper or does it not matter?
624 2013-01-18 16:10:08 <stealth222> j/k
625 2013-01-18 16:10:22 <gavinandresen> Hasimir: sure, can't hurt.
626 2013-01-18 16:10:43 <stealth222> should I disable unsigned installations, gavin?
627 2013-01-18 16:11:23 <gavinandresen> stealth222: yes, please
628 2013-01-18 16:12:58 <stealth222> gavinandresen: it worked
629 2013-01-18 16:13:04 <gavinandresen> sipa:  RE: build environment:  I think we should either move both linux and windows to Precise, or stay on Lucid for both.  Just to keep the pull-tester environment sane
630 2013-01-18 16:13:13 <gavinandresen> stealth222: awesome, thanks
631 2013-01-18 16:13:34 <Hasimir> gavinandresen, well, it hasn't auto-crashed ... now let's give it a while to kick into gear
632 2013-01-18 16:13:42 <gavinandresen> sipa: … but if we move the Linux build to Precise, then that means dropping support for lucid binaries
633 2013-01-18 16:14:12 <sipa> gavinandresen: yes, but precise for windows is more useful too, as it means getting gcc 4.6 instead of 4.2
634 2013-01-18 16:14:15 ralphtheninja has joined
635 2013-01-18 16:14:32 <gavinandresen> sipa:  ACK.  I think the right thing to do is to build everything Precise.
636 2013-01-18 16:14:41 JWU42 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
637 2013-01-18 16:14:46 <sipa> you think it's fine to drop lucid support?
638 2013-01-18 16:14:54 <sipa> s/lucid/pre-precise/
639 2013-01-18 16:15:17 <gavinandresen> I think so, but I don't use the Linux binaries...
640 2013-01-18 16:16:07 yellowhat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
641 2013-01-18 16:17:04 <gavinandresen> "Canonical intends to provide support for Ubuntu 10.04 until April 2013 for the desktop version"  <-- very close to end-of-life
642 2013-01-18 16:17:28 <etotheipi_> hey!  I'm in lucid, why you guys hatin' so much?
643 2013-01-18 16:17:45 <Hasimir> hrm ... forgot to change the network settings to not use tor, oh well, worth testing that too I guess
644 2013-01-18 16:17:59 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: we have a vendetta against anybody who DARES to COMPETE with the ULTIMATELY AWESOMENESSS of BITCOIN-QT!!!!!!!
645 2013-01-18 16:18:47 <stealth222> multiwallet-qt would be awesomer :)
646 2013-01-18 16:18:49 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: to be fair, though, why can't lucid be supported?
647 2013-01-18 16:19:48 <etotheipi_> I mean, I compile and bundle on lucid, and it works with lucid+... the same doesn'tseem to be true for newer ubunut
648 2013-01-18 16:20:08 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: well, we want to use Precise to build for Windows.  So we want to use Precise for the pull-tester environment.
649 2013-01-18 16:20:31 <etotheipi_> oh, I forgot you guys were cross-compiling
650 2013-01-18 16:20:36 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: … and I'd like the pull-tester environment to be as similar as possible to the gitian-build environment we use for releases
651 2013-01-18 16:20:54 <etotheipi_> yeah yeah, I get it
652 2013-01-18 16:21:00 <Hasimir> gavinandresen, it loaded, but I'm still waiting for it to go find the network
653 2013-01-18 16:21:15 <Hasimir> ah, it just did
654 2013-01-18 16:21:16 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: if several somebodies wanted to get together and produce binaries for Lucid, that'd be awesome.  But I think we're too busy to take that on.
655 2013-01-18 16:22:02 <stealth222> any good user of UNIX-like OSes should know how to compile it themselves :p
656 2013-01-18 16:22:09 <gavinandresen> that, too
657 2013-01-18 16:22:21 <sipa> well, i think we should try to keep makefile+source compatibility with lucid and others debianisms
658 2013-01-18 16:22:26 <Hasimir> what's wrong with the configure && make && make install dance?
659 2013-01-18 16:22:49 <sipa> even if we don't provide gitian binaries for pre-precise anymore
660 2013-01-18 16:23:50 <stealth222> agree, sipa
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664 2013-01-18 16:25:13 <stealth222> it shouldn't be too hard to find at least one person to try to compile it on lucid to test the makefiles
665 2013-01-18 16:25:50 <Hasimir> stealth222, I volunteer etotheipi_ ;)
666 2013-01-18 16:25:54 <stealth222> :)
667 2013-01-18 16:26:02 <gavinandresen> I kind of like Hasimir's thought-- what if we did the minimal work so 'configure && make && make install' in the top-level directory Did the Right Things ?
668 2013-01-18 16:26:33 <Hasimir> that'd suit me for when I move back to Slackware too
669 2013-01-18 16:28:16 <Eliel> gavinandresen: that would definitely make life easier for a lot of people who just want to compile bitcoin.
670 2013-01-18 16:29:23 <gavinandresen> we got stuck in the past with people trying to do full-blown setuptools/whatever .  A simple, just-works-on-windows-and-osx-and-ubuntu configure.sh might be good enough
671 2013-01-18 16:30:03 <gavinandresen> (I'd settle for just-works-on-osx-and-linux)
672 2013-01-18 16:30:18 <stealth222> windows users aren't going to compile it - lol
673 2013-01-18 16:30:18 <Hasimir> that would go a long way
674 2013-01-18 16:30:26 <stealth222> most mac users won't either
675 2013-01-18 16:30:32 <Hasimir> especially making it distribution agnostic
676 2013-01-18 16:30:40 <gavinandresen> Great.  Who wants to take a crack at writing that?
677 2013-01-18 16:30:53 <Eliel> stealth222: yes, of course. That would mostly be for linux users.
678 2013-01-18 16:31:55 * gavinandresen hears crickets
679 2013-01-18 16:32:55 * Hasimir checks the configure file for a reasonably sized project (GPG) ...
680 2013-01-18 16:33:08 <Hasimir> gonna have to pass on that one, sorry
681 2013-01-18 16:33:12 <Eliel> Hasimir: most projects autogenerate them with autoconf
682 2013-01-18 16:33:33 CANON has joined
683 2013-01-18 16:34:37 <stealth222> I can take a whack at it, gavin - but I don't want to promise anything...got plenty of other stuff going on atm
684 2013-01-18 16:35:10 * Hasimir checks autoconf man page and then configure.ac and still thinks someone who has read the bitcoin source code would do a better job  ;)
685 2013-01-18 16:35:12 <gavinandresen> right, I'm saying a trivial configure.sh that just runs qmake with the right arguments could be good enough.  Extra credit would be to check for missing dependencies
686 2013-01-18 16:35:30 Joric has joined
687 2013-01-18 16:35:53 <stealth222> isn't checking for missing dependencies an essential part of the configure script?
688 2013-01-18 16:36:27 <stealth222> I mean, chances are if you type qmake and have the dependencies installed, you'll get a working Makefile
689 2013-01-18 16:36:30 mykhal has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
690 2013-01-18 16:36:49 <stealth222> what special arguments are needed?
691 2013-01-18 16:37:00 <stealth222> UPNP and that stuff?
692 2013-01-18 16:37:07 <gavinandresen> yup
693 2013-01-18 16:37:49 <stealth222> so you're talking about a script that prompts the user for whether they want UPNP?
694 2013-01-18 16:38:12 rdponticelli has joined
695 2013-01-18 16:38:48 <gavinandresen> that's the project-- figure out all that stuff. I'd suggest "compile with UPNP if the UPNP library is in the standard spot, otherwise don't"
696 2013-01-18 16:39:11 <stealth222> the less the user needs to be prompted the better
697 2013-01-18 16:39:16 <gavinandresen> agreed
698 2013-01-18 16:39:30 zooko`` has joined
699 2013-01-18 16:39:37 <gavinandresen> just Do The Right Thing.  And if you can't, tell the user exactly what they need to do.
700 2013-01-18 16:39:40 panzerfaust has joined
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702 2013-01-18 16:40:07 <Eliel> Hasimir: you're most likely right about that :)
703 2013-01-18 16:40:13 <Hasimir> of course, then there's the fun of if "the standard spot" for library x differs between distros
704 2013-01-18 16:40:36 <Hasimir> Eliel, sometimes wisdom is knowing when to leave things to others
705 2013-01-18 16:40:39 <stealth222> the list can't be too extensive
706 2013-01-18 16:41:01 <stealth222> it's just a few more string literals and conditionals in the script :p
707 2013-01-18 16:41:13 panzer has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
708 2013-01-18 16:41:14 <gavinandresen> start with debian, and "patches welcome" for supporting others.
709 2013-01-18 16:41:16 <Eliel> then again, most likely no-one will get it right on the first try :)
710 2013-01-18 16:41:20 <Hasimir> sounds right
711 2013-01-18 16:41:48 <Hasimir> but I'd say cover debian (and its children) and dead rat (and its children)
712 2013-01-18 16:42:11 <Eliel> ... dead rat?
713 2013-01-18 16:42:20 <Hasimir> dead rat = red hat
714 2013-01-18 16:42:23 <stealth222> lol
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719 2013-01-18 16:48:11 <TD> gavinandresen: i have gatekeeper
720 2013-01-18 16:48:25 <gavinandresen> I am the KeyMaster!
721 2013-01-18 16:48:57 <TD> or should i say gatekeeper has me :(
722 2013-01-18 16:49:56 <Hasimir> "Ray has gone bye-bye, what've you got for me Egon?"  "I'm sorry Peter, I've lost the capacity for rational thought."
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726 2013-01-18 17:02:55 <stealth222> packaging software is not as fun as writing it :p
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736 2013-01-18 17:18:42 <helo> need to write software packaging software to improve the experience
737 2013-01-18 17:19:05 <helo> waitno
738 2013-01-18 17:19:38 <stealth222> automake and autoconf? :p
739 2013-01-18 17:20:00 <stealth222> autohell? :p
740 2013-01-18 17:20:20 <stealth222> autononeroticasphyxiation
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750 2013-01-18 17:50:35 <Pucilowski> Is there anywhere I can view a list of transactions that took very long to confirm?
751 2013-01-18 17:52:34 Lolcust has joined
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753 2013-01-18 17:54:59 grau has joined
754 2013-01-18 17:55:42 <stealth222> I have a database that might have some of that information
755 2013-01-18 17:55:51 <stealth222> never mined it for that statistic - but I could :)
756 2013-01-18 17:56:32 <stealth222> basically, the database timestamped transactions as it saw them and then also timestamped the time it saw blocks including them
757 2013-01-18 17:58:30 <stealth222> argh, timestamped the time...lol
758 2013-01-18 17:58:32 TD has joined
759 2013-01-18 17:59:50 <stealth222> but I didn't have it running since the beginning of bitcoin
760 2013-01-18 18:00:00 <stealth222> furthest back it might go is july of 2012
761 2013-01-18 18:00:16 <stealth222> before that, it just has blocks - no live transactions
762 2013-01-18 18:00:27 jdnavarro has joined
763 2013-01-18 18:00:45 <stealth222> also, it hasn't been running continuously - it's been running mostly continuously...so it might have missed a few spots
764 2013-01-18 18:00:53 daybyter has joined
765 2013-01-18 18:01:24 <stealth222> what do you need this data for?
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772 2013-01-18 18:20:14 <legitnick> I've got some tx's that still haven't confirmed after 15 days..
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792 2013-01-18 18:48:25 <corbs132> hey, is anyone here?
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795 2013-01-18 18:52:15 <corbs132> i'm trying to modify electrum-server to work on a different currency, does anyone know if this has been done before?
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831 2013-01-18 20:49:02 <Pucilowski> What prevents a pool miner that finds a solution from claiming the reward for himself rather than submitting it to the operator for sharing?
832 2013-01-18 20:49:44 <corbs132> oh snap
833 2013-01-18 20:49:44 <Luke-Jr> Pucilowski: the pool checks shares by ensuring they claim the solution to approved output(s)
834 2013-01-18 20:49:47 <corbs132> that's a good question
835 2013-01-18 20:50:56 <Pucilowski> I don't really understand Luke-Jr
836 2013-01-18 20:51:23 <Luke-Jr> you won't until you look into how pooled mining works in more detail ;)
837 2013-01-18 20:51:35 WolfAlex has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
838 2013-01-18 20:51:50 legitnick has joined
839 2013-01-18 20:52:21 <Pucilowski> Luke-Jr: any good resources explaining it?
840 2013-01-18 20:52:33 twixed has joined
841 2013-01-18 20:52:46 <Luke-Jr> Pucilowski: there's a number of wiki pages covering it
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852 2013-01-18 21:11:28 <theorbtwo> Hm.  Transactions that confim only very slowly coupled with transactions in-flight being non-cancelable seems like a pratical problem.
853 2013-01-18 21:12:31 <theorbtwo> Assume legitnick tried to pay for something with that 15-day transaction.  It doesn't seem to go through, though.  Does he have any recourse to paying for it again, but being unable to spend the coins he already sent?
854 2013-01-18 21:13:48 <legitnick> when I imported the priv key to bitcoin-qt it showed up in my balance
855 2013-01-18 21:15:01 <legitnick> are those coins gone forever?
856 2013-01-18 21:19:28 <phantomcircuit> legitnick, huh?
857 2013-01-18 21:20:08 <Luke-Jr> theorbtwo: that's why Bitcoin-Qt forces fees in some cases
858 2013-01-18 21:20:42 <Luke-Jr> legitnick: importing an untrusted key is a bad idea, huh?
859 2013-01-18 21:20:58 <legitnick> it was my key from blockchain.info
860 2013-01-18 21:21:25 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: is the Spesmilo project dead?
861 2013-01-18 21:21:50 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: seems to be
862 2013-01-18 21:22:07 <gavinandresen> mind if I edit the wiki page to say so?
863 2013-01-18 21:22:12 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I stopped working on it when Bitcoin-Qt came along, at least; and I don't think genjix has touched it in forever
864 2013-01-18 21:22:14 <Luke-Jr> feel free
865 2013-01-18 21:23:58 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I'm surprised to learn it no longer works, though - did we break compatibility at some point? :o
866 2013-01-18 21:24:11 ralphtheninja has quit (Quit: leaving)
867 2013-01-18 21:24:14 <gavinandresen> dunno.  I'm not motivated to find out, either....
868 2013-01-18 21:25:13 <legitnick> is there a way to get a list of unconfirmed tx's based on an address?
869 2013-01-18 21:26:03 <Pucilowski> legitnick: they never made it past your client
870 2013-01-18 21:26:39 <legitnick> I know
871 2013-01-18 21:26:44 <Pucilowski> where is qt's mempool stored?
872 2013-01-18 21:26:55 <Pucilowski> wouldnt removing that remove unconfirmed transactions?
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876 2013-01-18 21:27:46 <gavinandresen> qt's mempool is stored in memory.  But wallet transactions are stored in wallet.dat, and 0-confirmed wallet transactions are added to the memory pool and re-broadcast after startup
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878 2013-01-18 21:28:31 <gavinandresen> if you hacked -qt to send a transactions that won't confirm, then you'll need to hack it to remove the transaction from wallet.dat
879 2013-01-18 21:32:21 <legitnick> I already tried deleting the tx's then reloading it
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895 2013-01-18 22:19:44 <Akiraa> I am a little confused what the computational work of Bitcoin is, we are trying to find a hash of the form: 0000xxxx where xxxx is the current target and the difficulty is (1 - the number of leading zero bits)
896 2013-01-18 22:20:59 corbs132 has quit (Quit: corbs132)
897 2013-01-18 22:21:35 <sipa> not entire
898 2013-01-18 22:21:39 <sipa> * entirely
899 2013-01-18 22:21:49 <sipa> the hash is 256-bit number
900 2013-01-18 22:22:13 <sipa> this number is interpreted as a normal number
901 2013-01-18 22:22:25 <sipa> the target is also just a number, of similar length
902 2013-01-18 22:22:57 <sipa> the number 0x00000000FFFF0000.... (48 0's follow) is the highest possible target
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905 2013-01-18 22:23:12 <sipa> the difficulty is the fraction of that number divided by the actual target
906 2013-01-18 22:23:51 <sipa> so, we're looking for hash(blockheader) < 0x0000FFFF0000.... / difficulty
907 2013-01-18 22:25:06 <Luke-Jr> (where hash(blockheader) is the hash encoded in big endian, then reinterpreted as little endian…)
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923 2013-01-18 22:55:06 <Akiraa> sipa: 0x0000FFFF0000 / difficulty, that's integer division?
924 2013-01-18 22:55:26 <Akiraa> or perhaps modular inverse
925 2013-01-18 22:55:39 <sipa> just integer division
926 2013-01-18 22:55:43 <Akiraa> ok
927 2013-01-18 22:55:53 <sipa> in a modular group, "<" doesn't make sense, really
928 2013-01-18 22:56:06 <Akiraa> the blockheader is the hash of all previous blocks?
929 2013-01-18 22:56:18 <sipa> no, it's the header of a single block
930 2013-01-18 22:56:26 <sipa> however, it contains the hash of the header of the current block
931 2013-01-18 22:56:35 <sipa> eh
932 2013-01-18 22:56:35 <Akiraa> and the current block being the hash of the transactions
933 2013-01-18 22:56:50 <sipa> the current block header contains the hash of the previous block header
934 2013-01-18 22:56:59 <sipa> and the root hash of the transaction merkle tree of the current block
935 2013-01-18 22:57:25 <Akiraa> ok
936 2013-01-18 22:57:35 <sipa> and a few other things (version number, timestamp, nonce, difficulty)
937 2013-01-18 22:58:17 Prattler has joined
938 2013-01-18 22:58:26 <sipa> Akiraa: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
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945 2013-01-18 23:07:33 <Akiraa> since when are 10^-8 BTCs called 'satoshi' ?
946 2013-01-18 23:08:18 <sipa> when i first read about it, in november-december 2010, not yet
947 2013-01-18 23:08:29 <sipa> but not too long afterwards the term was "coined"
948 2013-01-18 23:08:54 <sipa> i do remember discussions on the forum about how it should be called
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950 2013-01-18 23:15:08 <Akiraa> does bitcoin prove that you can't have a peer-to-peer electronic token without some sacrifice in anonymity?
951 2013-01-18 23:15:13 <Akiraa> i.e. pseudonymity
952 2013-01-18 23:15:40 <Akiraa> since you are not referring to a particular authority or physical backing to settle value
953 2013-01-18 23:16:07 <Akiraa> and so it relies on a public roster of transactions
954 2013-01-18 23:17:02 <sipa> i don't think it proves anything of that kind
955 2013-01-18 23:18:13 <Akiraa> so we may yet have a fully anonymous system (one that hides transactions)?
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957 2013-01-18 23:22:31 <gavinandresen> Akiraa: I seem to remember somebody offering a proof that "fully anonymous" and "no third part" were mutually exclusive.  But I can't remember what the proof was.  And  http://arxiv.org/abs/1212.3257  has a nice description of a very private payment scheme.
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975 2013-01-18 23:57:55 <Akiraa> sipa: the number of hashes necessary to complete a block is then 2^difficulty?
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979 2013-01-18 23:59:26 <sipa> Akiraa: no, 2^48*(difficulty/65535)
980 2013-01-18 23:59:39 <sipa> Akiraa: hash < max_target / difficulty