1 2013-01-19 00:00:10 <sipa> number_of_hashes is 2^256 / target
   2 2013-01-19 00:00:29 <sipa> and max_target is 2^208 * 65535
   3 2013-01-19 00:01:36 <sipa> Akiraa: difficulty being "the number of zeroes at the start of the hash" is a common myth
   4 2013-01-19 00:01:49 <sipa> though it is certainly related
   5 2013-01-19 00:02:12 <Akiraa> what happens to the remaining 32 bits of sha-256?
   6 2013-01-19 00:02:27 <sipa> ?
   7 2013-01-19 00:02:59 <Akiraa> oh, there  are always 4 bytes of zero
   8 2013-01-19 00:03:02 <sipa> yes
   9 2013-01-19 00:03:39 <Akiraa> why hot have the max target just 2^255 ?
  10 2013-01-19 00:03:53 <sipa> why not 2^256-1 ?
  11 2013-01-19 00:03:58 <sipa> ask satoshi :p
  12 2013-01-19 00:04:12 <Akiraa> ok, presuming that sha-256 does not have 256 bits of entropy, right
  13 2013-01-19 00:04:30 <sipa> i assume he wanted a minimal non-trivial difficulty right from the start
  14 2013-01-19 00:04:43 <Akiraa> which certainly it does not have :)
  15 2013-01-19 00:05:16 <sipa> very close to it, though
  16 2013-01-19 00:05:17 <Akiraa> we are at a point where it would be unlikely for ever to be a bitcoin 2.0, right?
  17 2013-01-19 00:05:37 <Akiraa> there is a lot of value and momentum sunk in this yet-beta system
  18 2013-01-19 00:06:23 <sipa> even if we want to do a non-controversial hard fork, it will have to be decided/implemented/tested/announced years in advance
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  20 2013-01-19 00:06:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: oh good, It's nice to see your checkblocks turned out to catch an intermittent rule violation, though a somewhat obscure one.
  21 2013-01-19 00:07:20 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah, i respect satoshi massively, but not enough to give him an instant-hardfork-switch :p
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  27 2013-01-19 00:09:14 <Akiraa> there is currently a central authority, namely the bitcoin foundation, which releases the source code
  28 2013-01-19 00:09:27 <Akiraa> which has significant influence on peers, right?
  29 2013-01-19 00:09:34 <gavinandresen> Akiraa: the bitcoin foundation doesn't release the source code
  30 2013-01-19 00:09:42 <Akiraa> eh, the standard bitcoin client
  31 2013-01-19 00:09:47 <sipa> not even
  32 2013-01-19 00:09:57 <Akiraa> or the builds for it
  33 2013-01-19 00:10:00 <sipa> not even
  34 2013-01-19 00:10:00 <gavinandresen> nope
  35 2013-01-19 00:10:25 <sipa> and even if it did, it can't introduce a change in the software that breakes a network rule
  36 2013-01-19 00:10:28 <Luke-Jr> Akiraa: the Foundation just pays Gavin and various other bounties and such
  37 2013-01-19 00:10:37 <Luke-Jr> Akiraa: it has no influence over what anyone does, in theory
  38 2013-01-19 00:10:58 <Akiraa> wasn't there a change a while ago that defeated inflated messages attached to block chains?
  39 2013-01-19 00:11:01 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  40 2013-01-19 00:11:03 <muhoo> is the right repository nexus.bitcoinj.org? i'm getting 500s Could not transfer artifact com.google:bitcoinj:pom:0.6.1 from/to google (http://nexus.bitcoinj.org/content/repositories/releases): Failed to transfer file: http://nexus.bitcoinj.org/content/repositories/releases/com/google/bitcoinj/0.6.1/bitcoinj-0.6.1.pom. Return code is: 500, ReasonPhrase:Server Error.
  41 2013-01-19 00:11:11 <gmaxwell> Akiraa: where did you get the idea that the foundation releases the source code? I'd like to go correct whatever is confusing or wrong on that.
  42 2013-01-19 00:11:21 <Akiraa> i.e. some people figured out you could use the block chain as a kind of append-only database
  43 2013-01-19 00:11:26 <Akiraa> and started pouring data into it
  44 2013-01-19 00:11:31 <gavinandresen> Akiraa: peer pressure stopped that.
  45 2013-01-19 00:12:03 <muhoo> yep, 500 http://nexus.bitcoinj.org/content/repositories/releases/com/google/bitcoinj/0.6.1/bitcoinj-0.6.1.pom . hmm. is there a mirror?
  46 2013-01-19 00:12:21 <Akiraa> so what stops people now from piling prepared data into the block chain?
  47 2013-01-19 00:12:37 <sipa> anti-DoS rules, enforced by most nodes in the network
  48 2013-01-19 00:12:49 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: more than that, transaction fees had made that uninteresting before anyone was talking about it.
  49 2013-01-19 00:13:05 <Akiraa> authoritative, distributed, append-only database with timestamping may be a good unintended feature of bitcoin
  50 2013-01-19 00:13:12 <sipa> Akiraa: and the common knowledge that screwing up the user experience now may have an adverse effect on the economics of the system later
  51 2013-01-19 00:13:24 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: blockchain.info had the append-a-message feature, but we convinced Ben it was a bad idea...
  52 2013-01-19 00:13:25 <muhoo> Akiraa: sounds like git
  53 2013-01-19 00:13:39 <sipa> Akiraa: the bitcoin block chain is a tremendously expensive beast to maintain
  54 2013-01-19 00:13:49 <muhoo> or couchdb, actually.
  55 2013-01-19 00:14:03 Impaler has joined
  56 2013-01-19 00:14:07 <Akiraa> of course, but the costs are distributed
  57 2013-01-19 00:14:14 <sipa> Akiraa: this cost is hidden, as miners get paid from the monetary inflation, and many other nodes run it for not necessary economic reasons
  58 2013-01-19 00:14:15 <muhoo> if you want a general-purpose, immutable append-only db, i'd recommend couchdb.
  59 2013-01-19 00:14:21 <gmaxwell> Akiraa: _externalized_ but not really distributed.
  60 2013-01-19 00:14:33 <Akiraa> (mind you, loading the block chain from a year ago till today took many hours on a top PC)
  61 2013-01-19 00:14:57 <Akiraa> muhoo: that is not authoritative
  62 2013-01-19 00:15:13 <muhoo> Akiraa: what is the authoritative maven source for bitconj jars?
  63 2013-01-19 00:15:16 <Akiraa> in the sense, contracts may be signed with a reference made in the block chain
  64 2013-01-19 00:15:28 <Akiraa> or a hash of it stored there
  65 2013-01-19 00:15:30 <Prattler> hopefully ultraprune can one day get rid of all the junk :)
  66 2013-01-19 00:15:40 <Akiraa> ultimate non-repudiability
  67 2013-01-19 00:15:45 <muhoo> this page implies that it is authoritative: http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/wiki/UsingMaven
  68 2013-01-19 00:15:46 <sipa> Akiraa: timestamping data via the block chain is possible without actually storing the data being timestamped
  69 2013-01-19 00:16:05 <sipa> Akiraa: there is a system called chronobit that does this with O(1) storage requirements
  70 2013-01-19 00:16:30 <Akiraa> muhoo: authoritative, but maintained by google
  71 2013-01-19 00:16:32 <gmaxwell> Akiraa: current chain on current code from a local peer takes about an hour.
  72 2013-01-19 00:16:40 <Akiraa> muhoo: bitcoin is something no government can force to be
  73 2013-01-19 00:16:51 <muhoo> bitcoinj.org is google?
  74 2013-01-19 00:17:04 <gmaxwell> Akiraa: Did you see my earlier question? 15:54 <@gmaxwell> Akiraa: where did you get the idea that the foundation releases the source code? I'd like to go correct whatever is confusing or wrong on that.
  75 2013-01-19 00:17:25 <muhoo> bitcoinj.org is not google, it is :Mike Hearn
  76 2013-01-19 00:17:29 <muhoo> according to whios
  77 2013-01-19 00:17:30 <muhoo> whois
  78 2013-01-19 00:17:43 <Akiraa> gmaxwell: who creates the builds on bitcoin.org?
  79 2013-01-19 00:17:44 <sipa> mike hearn developed bitcoinj as a 20% at google
  80 2013-01-19 00:18:09 <sipa> Akiraa: "we" do
  81 2013-01-19 00:18:16 <muhoo> ah. ok, can i ask a simple, if perhaps stupid question then: what maven repository is authoritative for bitcoinj jar releases?
  82 2013-01-19 00:18:18 <Akiraa> and if you have control of the official client, you may influence the way the network behaves
  83 2013-01-19 00:18:18 <gmaxwell> Akiraa: they are built with a decenteralized determinstic build process that enables multiple people to get bit-identical results.
  84 2013-01-19 00:18:26 <Akiraa> like say, you could ban 'tainted' coins
  85 2013-01-19 00:18:28 <sipa> Akiraa: we use a deterministic build environment called gitian
  86 2013-01-19 00:18:34 <gmaxwell> Akiraa: and multiple people build every build and one isn't posted unless they mathc.
  87 2013-01-19 00:18:48 <gmaxwell> match*
  88 2013-01-19 00:18:56 <sipa> Akiraa: you're able to do repeat that build (though it's a bit involved) and end up with a byte-for-byte identical binary
  89 2013-01-19 00:18:57 <Luke-Jr> Akiraa: there is no "official" client; there is only popular client, which can change overnight if someone tried to do something stupid
  90 2013-01-19 00:19:14 <gavinandresen> Akiraa: we've been working pretty hard the last year on several things to make it easier for alternative implementations, exactly to encourage decentralization
  91 2013-01-19 00:19:46 <sipa> Akiraa: also note that on the clients page of bitcoin.org you'll find links to other clients
  92 2013-01-19 00:19:56 <sipa> which are being developed independently
  93 2013-01-19 00:19:59 <gmaxwell> Akiraa: But, I'm still not following how that made you think that the foundation was releasing things?
  94 2013-01-19 00:20:20 <Akiraa> gmaxwell: sorry, it was just a confusion
  95 2013-01-19 00:20:21 <Joric> if gavinandresen wouldn't codereview well enough )
  96 2013-01-19 00:20:32 <muhoo> guys, i'm sorry, maybe i'm not smart enough to understand: where is there a maven repo i can rely on having the bitcoinj release library?
  97 2013-01-19 00:20:45 <sipa> muhoo: BlueMatt or TD probably know
  98 2013-01-19 00:20:50 <gmaxwell> Akiraa: yea, it's okay— understandable even— I just wondered if there was something specifically pointing at the foundation that I should have fixed. Sounds like no. OKAY
  99 2013-01-19 00:21:35 <muhoo> sipa: thanks, hopefully  can catch them online sometime
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 104 2013-01-19 00:30:27 <Akiraa> what happens if a potential bitcoin peer does not have control over her router (can't set ports that bitcoin uses)
 105 2013-01-19 00:30:41 <Akiraa> she won't be able to get the latest blocks, right?
 106 2013-01-19 00:31:21 <sipa> you don't need an incoming connection to connect to the network
 107 2013-01-19 00:32:39 rdponticelli has joined
 108 2013-01-19 00:35:01 <Akiraa> if someone decides to spend bitcoins twice, say by posting different transactions to different peers (same source address, but different recepient)
 109 2013-01-19 00:35:28 <Akiraa> would the network invalidate the transaction, or just take one at random
 110 2013-01-19 00:35:46 <sipa> one part of the transaction would consider one version valid, and another the other
 111 2013-01-19 00:35:59 <Akiraa> and then just go with that which has been validated by the most peers
 112 2013-01-19 00:36:08 <sipa> this will be resolved by the time either manages to be mined into a block, as two conflicting ones cannot be in the same chain
 113 2013-01-19 00:36:12 <gmaxwell> most peers has nothing to do with it.
 114 2013-01-19 00:36:18 <Akiraa> sipa: you mean one part of the network would consider one valid
 115 2013-01-19 00:36:29 <sipa> Akiraa: "unconfirmed valid"
 116 2013-01-19 00:36:49 <gmaxwell> Akiraa: Sounds like you might benefit from this high level overview of how the system works: http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
 117 2013-01-19 00:37:15 <Akiraa> the convention is what, transactions made 6 blocks ago are valid and confirmed?
 118 2013-01-19 00:37:34 <sipa> 1 confirmation is "confirmed", but not necessarily considered safe
 119 2013-01-19 00:37:36 <gmaxwell> Things like 'most peers' would fail horribly as soon as some attacker decided to just start up lots of apparent peers. (a sybil attack)
 120 2013-01-19 00:39:19 <Akiraa> so you must wait for a certain number of blocks to pass
 121 2013-01-19 00:39:33 <sipa> that's the general advise, yes
 122 2013-01-19 00:40:16 <sipa> *advice
 123 2013-01-19 00:40:55 <Akiraa> any convention on that number?
 124 2013-01-19 00:41:07 <sipa> 6, as established by satoshi's paper
 125 2013-01-19 00:41:17 <sipa> as you said
 126 2013-01-19 00:41:41 <Akiraa> the official client will show your balance after a certain number of confirmations, not how many blocks ago
 127 2013-01-19 00:42:09 <Luke-Jr> Akiraa: confirmations = how many blocks ago
 128 2013-01-19 00:42:24 <sipa> well, included in the last block = 1 confirmation
 129 2013-01-19 00:42:25 <Akiraa> oh, ok
 130 2013-01-19 00:42:32 <sipa> included in the last but one block = 2 confirmations
 131 2013-01-19 00:42:45 <Akiraa> if nobody bothered to verify it?
 132 2013-01-19 00:42:55 <Akiraa> it would get included in the next block if someone did?
 133 2013-01-19 00:42:59 <gavinandresen> everybody verifies transactions
 134 2013-01-19 00:43:09 <sipa> every full node verifies every transaction it sees
 135 2013-01-19 00:43:12 <Akiraa> i.e. is there a risk of transactions not being picked up?
 136 2013-01-19 00:43:27 <sipa> miners choose for themself which transactions to include in blocks
 137 2013-01-19 00:43:34 <sipa> and yes, there is such a risk
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 139 2013-01-19 00:43:55 <gavinandresen> sure, transmit a big transaction with no fees and it will never get into a block.  The reference implementation won't let you do that, though
 140 2013-01-19 00:44:08 <gavinandresen> (big-in-kilobytes, not big-in-bitcoins)
 141 2013-01-19 00:44:59 <Akiraa> so if Bob signs Alice's transaction but fails to relay the signature to his peers, Bob would have an outdated version of the block chain
 142 2013-01-19 00:45:14 <Akiraa> and Alice's transaction not validated
 143 2013-01-19 00:45:22 <Akiraa> assuming only Bob verified it
 144 2013-01-19 00:45:43 <Luke-Jr> the only person signing the transaction is the person sending it
 145 2013-01-19 00:46:02 FredEE has joined
 146 2013-01-19 00:46:28 <sipa> Akiraa: transactions are broadcasted on the network, but they are not authorative or part of the block chain, just broadcasting
 147 2013-01-19 00:46:37 <sipa> Akiraa: it's the blocks that make up the block chain
 148 2013-01-19 00:48:31 zooko has joined
 149 2013-01-19 00:48:53 <gmaxwell> Akiraa: you ought to go read that pdf. It sounds like you think that bitcon works by random peers signing transactions and then taking some kind of sybil-vulnerable majority. That kind of stuff is not at all how bitcoin works, but it's a common misunderstanding.
 150 2013-01-19 00:49:10 zooko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 151 2013-01-19 00:49:36 <muhoo> sipa: thank you, i'd never understood why transaction fees were necesary. now it makes sense.
 152 2013-01-19 00:49:42 zooko has joined
 153 2013-01-19 00:50:15 <randy-waterhouse> anybody have any data on how many multi-sig transactions are/have been taking place?
 154 2013-01-19 00:51:53 <sipa> yw
 155 2013-01-19 00:52:39 <Akiraa> gmaxwell: I was aware it was not "one name, one vote" but rather "one CPU, one vote" :)
 156 2013-01-19 00:53:20 <muhoo> so how bi is "big" in terms of kb?
 157 2013-01-19 00:53:31 <muhoo> heh, how big is big
 158 2013-01-19 00:53:49 <gmaxwell> Akiraa: in a random ballot election, which isn't exactly what most people think about when they speak of voting.
 159 2013-01-19 00:53:57 <gmaxwell> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_ballot)
 160 2013-01-19 00:54:15 <muhoo> i'm pretty sure bitcoinj includes transaction fees by default, but i'm curious what's the minimum that's safe to not do so
 161 2013-01-19 00:54:23 <Akiraa> yeah, in ballots, there is a natural scarcity of people
 162 2013-01-19 00:54:35 <Akiraa> you can't sybyl people
 163 2013-01-19 00:54:45 <Akiraa> well, that creates problems in a post-singularity society, doesn't it :)
 164 2013-01-19 00:55:03 <Akiraa> (if anyone read Charlie Stross' Accelerando )
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 167 2013-01-19 01:07:18 <Akiraa> I don't quite understand why you need hash(hash(...)) instead of a single hash
 168 2013-01-19 01:07:26 <Akiraa> other than doubling the difficulty perhaps
 169 2013-01-19 01:07:26 <sipa> Nobody does.
 170 2013-01-19 01:07:34 <Akiraa> but then, that's a kind of hardcoded way of doing it
 171 2013-01-19 01:07:37 appelei has joined
 172 2013-01-19 01:08:04 <sipa> Satoshi probably felt that was 'safer'
 173 2013-01-19 01:11:14 <Luke-Jr> without hash(hash(…)), mining wouldn't even do one full hash round :P
 174 2013-01-19 01:22:27 <Akiraa> Currently, transactions involving less than 0.01 BTC will incur transaction fees?
 175 2013-01-19 01:23:09 <gmaxwell> Akiraa: payments with outputs less than 0.01 BTC, yes.
 176 2013-01-19 01:23:28 <Akiraa> the fee in that case is what, perchance
 177 2013-01-19 01:23:58 <Akiraa> presumably, a value hardcoded in the semiofficial client
 178 2013-01-19 01:24:22 <gavinandresen> yeah, un-harcoding that is on my TODO list.  It's half-done.
 179 2013-01-19 01:24:43 <sipa> the fee, if used, is base_fee * size_in_KB
 180 2013-01-19 01:24:59 <sipa> the required minimum base_fee is 0.00005 BTC or so iirc
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 182 2013-01-19 01:25:25 <gavinandresen> one too many zeros, I think sipa
 183 2013-01-19 01:25:31 <gavinandresen> 0.0005 iirc
 184 2013-01-19 01:25:34 <sipa> right
 185 2013-01-19 01:25:49 <sipa> i wanted to say 00.0005, but misplaced the dot!
 186 2013-01-19 01:25:58 <sipa> ... and if you don't believe that
 187 2013-01-19 01:26:46 <gavinandresen> sipa: speaking of un-hardcoding the fee… I've been thinking that redesigning the memory pool could help with the estimate-fee-needed code
 188 2013-01-19 01:27:00 <sipa> how so?
 189 2013-01-19 01:27:22 <gavinandresen> the idea being:  make the memory pool like an oversized block, and fill it as if you were a miner choosing transactions
 190 2013-01-19 01:27:52 <gavinandresen> When sending transactions, you can then ask yourself:  If I was a miner, would I put this new transaction in my block?  If not, add some fees and ask again.
 191 2013-01-19 01:28:15 <sipa> that sounds fragi;e
 192 2013-01-19 01:28:18 <sipa> fragile
 193 2013-01-19 01:28:56 <sipa> others may have a very different view of the current memory pool
 194 2013-01-19 01:29:08 <gavinandresen> fragile how?  if it was on the raggedy-edge of not making it into the block then it'd be 'add fees'
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 196 2013-01-19 01:29:47 <gavinandresen> sipa: mmm, true, although I think the defaults are pretty widely used right now
 197 2013-01-19 01:30:01 <sipa> i think it's not reasonable to expect that clients need to maintain a memory pool to be good at guessing fees
 198 2013-01-19 01:30:23 <sipa> if your fee rules are so complex you need that, you're instantly killing SPV clients from every making a good guess
 199 2013-01-19 01:31:22 <gavinandresen> mmm.  We need to give SPV clients information about transaction fees so they can estimate for themselves
 200 2013-01-19 01:31:37 <gavinandresen> … but I see that as a separate issue
 201 2013-01-19 01:32:02 <Scrat> is in * 180 + out * 34 + 10 a good guess for transaction size?
 202 2013-01-19 01:32:49 <gavinandresen> Scrat: until multisig transactions get popular that's probably fairly close
 203 2013-01-19 01:33:22 <gavinandresen> Scrat: why are you guessing transaction sizes?
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 205 2013-01-19 01:33:55 <sipa> Scrat: 151.5 bytes for compressed-pubkeyhash prevout inputs, 183.5 for non compressed ones
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 207 2013-01-19 01:34:08 <Scrat> I want to know what the fee will be for highly fragmented wallet
 208 2013-01-19 01:34:47 <sipa> wait, i'm wrong
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 210 2013-01-19 01:36:23 <sipa> 148 / 180
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 229 2013-01-19 02:14:23 <Akiraa> do you have a rough idea of the kind of electrical power consumed by the network now?
 230 2013-01-19 02:14:33 <Akiraa> like, how many MWe?
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 233 2013-01-19 02:21:33 <kjj> various people have tried to estimate it
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 237 2013-01-19 02:31:36 jake116 has joined
 238 2013-01-19 02:32:07 <jake116> How does one set up a service like BTCSportsbet.com? What kind of system do they use to give everyone who signs up a wallet and what kind of automated system do they use to give winners Bitcoins and take bitcoins from losing bets?
 239 2013-01-19 02:33:10 B0g4r7 has joined
 240 2013-01-19 02:39:18 <kjj> don't take this the wrong way, but asking that question signals that the answer won't help you
 241 2013-01-19 02:40:51 padre has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 242 2013-01-19 02:42:44 <stealth222> it all works by magic
 243 2013-01-19 02:43:47 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 244 2013-01-19 02:44:29 <jake116> where can I start to learn the "magic".
 245 2013-01-19 02:44:37 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 247 2013-01-19 02:45:52 <kjj> if you are a decent web programmer and know databases, it is just a matter of talking JSON to the RPC service on a bitcoin node
 248 2013-01-19 02:45:53 <stealth222> http://bitcoin.org/
 249 2013-01-19 02:46:26 <stealth222> it is except for when you need to receive notifications, kjj :p
 250 2013-01-19 02:46:34 <stealth222> no decent callback mechanism in bitcoind yet
 251 2013-01-19 02:46:55 <stealth222> then you need to hack up your own stuff
 252 2013-01-19 02:47:06 <kjj> heh.  there is a patch for notifications
 253 2013-01-19 02:47:22 <kjj> anyone that wants it can use it
 254 2013-01-19 02:47:22 <stealth222> there are several
 255 2013-01-19 02:47:48 gladoss has joined
 256 2013-01-19 02:47:54 <gladoss> I get {"code":-1,"message":"value is type int, expected str"} when I query sendmany.
 257 2013-01-19 02:48:10 <kjj> send it a string then
 258 2013-01-19 02:48:16 <gladoss> $tx = $bitcoin->query("sendmany", "$account", $smarray, "5");
 259 2013-01-19 02:48:25 <gladoss> they are all strings except for the sendmany array.
 260 2013-01-19 02:48:36 <kjj> you can use strings in arrays
 261 2013-01-19 02:49:08 <gladoss> for the amounts I use strings too?
 262 2013-01-19 02:50:12 <gladoss> and $smarray is already a string after being json encoded
 263 2013-01-19 02:50:16 <gladoss> so they are all strings.
 264 2013-01-19 02:50:36 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
 265 2013-01-19 02:52:47 <kjj> print_r $smarray;
 266 2013-01-19 02:53:43 <gladoss> huh
 267 2013-01-19 02:53:46 <gladoss> you don't need to json encode it?
 268 2013-01-19 02:54:16 <kjj> I'm not familiar with the query method that you are using, but I'm very curious what exactly you are passing to that function
 269 2013-01-19 02:54:32 <gladoss> I am passing the following string as $smarray: {"1EyjYoyur9TKHbXyz1trLqFyEUStejkZ6j":0.5,"14fDLY1mUXUy1vfupzPxfkG9brFgnSKARm":0.0054321}
 270 2013-01-19 02:55:20 <gladoss> I JSON encoded it because on the API list page the parameters looked like a json object.
 271 2013-01-19 02:55:39 <kjj> which RPC client are you using?
 272 2013-01-19 02:56:07 <gladoss> https://github.com/mikegogulski/bitcoin-php/blob/master/src/bitcoin.inc
 273 2013-01-19 02:56:07 <stealth222> for testing a raw query, curl -d '{"method:":....} <your bitcoind server>
 274 2013-01-19 02:56:55 <stealth222> then you don't have to worry about the specifics of the RPC client
 275 2013-01-19 02:59:57 <kjj> it looks like that library can handle arrays as arrays
 276 2013-01-19 03:00:15 <gladoss> no, it can't, I get about 4 errors if I directly pass arrays
 277 2013-01-19 03:00:39 <stealth222> gladoss, I would suggest trying to do the query using command line curl
 278 2013-01-19 03:00:50 <gladoss> stealth222: I'm doing that at the moment :)
 279 2013-01-19 03:01:02 <gladoss> How do I pass parameters through?
 280 2013-01-19 03:01:06 <kjj> or pick up Vaccaro's jsonRPCClient.php.  that one can handle arrays as arrays
 281 2013-01-19 03:01:39 <gladoss> {"method":sendmany, "account":"myaccount"} ?
 282 2013-01-19 03:01:51 <stealth222> curl -d '{"method":"sendmany", "params":[param1, param2, ...], id:null"}'
 283 2013-01-19 03:01:57 <stealth222> and then your server's URL
 284 2013-01-19 03:02:06 <gladoss> oh thanks
 285 2013-01-19 03:02:41 <stealth222> put the id in quotes, too
 286 2013-01-19 03:03:04 <stealth222> curl -d '{"method":"sendmany", "params":[param1, param2, ...], "id":null}' <server URL>
 287 2013-01-19 03:05:38 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 288 2013-01-19 03:06:06 <gladoss> kk, so I need to directly pass an array
 289 2013-01-19 03:06:10 <gladoss> not a json encoded string
 290 2013-01-19 03:06:22 <gladoss> not array, object*
 291 2013-01-19 03:06:45 <kjj> heh.  do you really mean an array with strings for keys?
 292 2013-01-19 03:07:06 <kjj> in PHP, there isn't much difference
 293 2013-01-19 03:08:21 b4epoche has joined
 294 2013-01-19 03:08:30 <stealth222> there is a difference in PHP
 295 2013-01-19 03:08:37 <gladoss> yup, okay I found a relevant thread on bitcointalk :)
 296 2013-01-19 03:09:06 <stealth222> I don't believe you can dereference an array
 297 2013-01-19 03:09:25 <stealth222> array->key won't work, I don't think
 298 2013-01-19 03:10:02 <gladoss> I wish I used jsonRPCClient.php and did everything directly, but the project I'm working on uses bitcoin.inc throughout it's code :P
 299 2013-01-19 03:10:13 <kjj> that is one difference.  the other difference is that functions that return the type will report "object" instead of "array"
 300 2013-01-19 03:10:46 <stealth222> I find the json-rpc layer to be so thin as to not really be worth using a library in my projects
 301 2013-01-19 03:11:19 <stealth222> it's totally straightforward to format the post
 302 2013-01-19 03:11:22 <gladoss> yup
 303 2013-01-19 03:12:12 <gladoss> Is there any problem with starting two rpc connections?
 304 2013-01-19 03:12:26 <stealth222> there shouldn't be
 305 2013-01-19 03:12:30 <gladoss> I can't remove bitcoin.inc without refactoring a lot of code, and I can't pass arrays with bitcoin.inc
 306 2013-01-19 03:12:39 <kjj> shouldn't be, but if I recall, the whole RPC system locks as a whole
 307 2013-01-19 03:12:48 <stealth222> yeah - it's not designed for high concurrency
 308 2013-01-19 03:12:58 <gladoss> okay, happy if it works
 309 2013-01-19 03:13:14 <gladoss> and there's always at least one guy who replies with a *python* solution even through the question says PHP three times
 310 2013-01-19 03:13:18 <gladoss> :/
 311 2013-01-19 03:17:34 EPiSKiNG- has joined
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 314 2013-01-19 03:18:04 EPiSKiNG- has joined
 315 2013-01-19 03:18:16 sgornick_ has joined
 316 2013-01-19 03:18:40 <gladoss> Warning: fopen(http://...@localhost:13332): failed to open stream: HTTP request failed! HTTP/1.1 500 Internal Server Error in /var/www/wallet/lib/jsonRPCClient.php on line 132
 317 2013-01-19 03:18:51 inlikeflynn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 318 2013-01-19 03:19:00 <gladoss> hmm, don't think I can have 2 rpc connections open at once
 319 2013-01-19 03:19:03 inlikeflynn has joined
 320 2013-01-19 03:19:21 <stealth222> jsonRPCClient had some issues with error handling, if I reca,,
 321 2013-01-19 03:19:23 <stealth222> *recall
 322 2013-01-19 03:19:28 <stealth222> wasn't very specific
 323 2013-01-19 03:20:32 <stealth222> I had used it in one project and had to add some tracers in it to get more specific error messages
 324 2013-01-19 03:21:34 <muhoo> so when to bluematt and tc hang out here, typically?
 325 2013-01-19 03:21:54 <gladoss> nah, this is before the server response
 326 2013-01-19 03:21:59 <gladoss> so it's not a bitcoind error
 327 2013-01-19 03:22:02 <stealth222> right
 328 2013-01-19 03:22:05 t7 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 329 2013-01-19 03:22:09 <stealth222> that's what I mean - it's an error on the web server
 330 2013-01-19 03:22:10 <kjj> jsonRPCClient.php has given me no trouble ever, and I mostly use it for raw transactions and other nonsense
 331 2013-01-19 03:23:15 da2ce747 has joined
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 333 2013-01-19 03:25:54 Belkaar has joined
 334 2013-01-19 03:26:03 <stealth222> for my PHP projects, I prefer to use something like http://pastebin.com/JypQVHCa
 335 2013-01-19 03:26:59 zooko` has joined
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 337 2013-01-19 03:28:26 <gladoss> listtransactions doesn't support sendmany well..
 338 2013-01-19 03:28:46 RainbowDashh has joined
 339 2013-01-19 03:29:53 <kjj> gladoss: that's a fundamental difference between how bitcoin REALLY works, and how we normally think of transactions
 340 2013-01-19 03:31:47 <gladoss> but isn't sendmany just a single transaction with multiple outputs (after change)/
 341 2013-01-19 03:32:04 zooko`` has joined
 342 2013-01-19 03:32:13 <gladoss> so shouldn't it be returned just once in listtransactions?
 343 2013-01-19 03:33:06 zooko` has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 344 2013-01-19 03:33:30 <kjj> listtransactions really shows inputs and outputs, regardless of how those bunch into transactions
 345 2013-01-19 03:34:03 <kjj> which is what you'd expect using the english word "transactions" instead of the bitcoin jargon "transactions"
 346 2013-01-19 03:35:10 phma_ is now known as phma
 347 2013-01-19 03:35:18 <gladoss> kjj: but it ignores change outputs.
 348 2013-01-19 03:35:33 <kjj> yes, because change doesn't involve money coming or going
 349 2013-01-19 03:35:42 zooko``` has joined
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 351 2013-01-19 03:37:50 <stealth222> change outputs are entirely hidden in the RPC
 352 2013-01-19 03:38:28 <stealth222> it was pretty confusing to me at first, too
 353 2013-01-19 03:39:47 <stealth222> if you want the change outputs, you'll have to do a getrawtransaction
 354 2013-01-19 03:40:01 <gladoss> stealth222: I'm doing that already
 355 2013-01-19 03:40:12 <kjj> the only thing it really needs is an RPC call that gives an address, but marks that key as a change key internally.  for people that do raw TX
 356 2013-01-19 03:40:14 <gladoss> oddly enough I get "can't get raw transaction" for tx ids from listtransactions
 357 2013-01-19 03:40:41 <muhoo> i see a lot of transactions that look like this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/8775
 358 2013-01-19 03:40:46 <gladoss> rare occurance, but I could never figure out why - no nonstandard scripts or anything
 359 2013-01-19 03:40:53 <gladoss> anyway: will bitcoind ever send more than 1 change output?
 360 2013-01-19 03:41:01 <gladoss> I am thinking of detecting sendmany by checking to see if their output is 3
 361 2013-01-19 03:41:02 <muhoo> what's the 0.00 BTC? why is it 0?
 362 2013-01-19 03:41:03 <gladoss> or more
 363 2013-01-19 03:41:26 zooko```` has joined
 364 2013-01-19 03:41:38 <muhoo> is that supposed to be a fee?
 365 2013-01-19 03:42:00 <kjj> it isn't 0, it is just poorly rounded.  it is really 0.00000001
 366 2013-01-19 03:42:17 <gladoss> muhoo: no, fees are not outputs
 367 2013-01-19 03:42:26 <gladoss> they are just the difference in inputs & outputs (correct me if I'm wrong)
 368 2013-01-19 03:42:35 <muhoo> that sounds like what i've read
 369 2013-01-19 03:42:48 <muhoo> but my question is, what's with the 0.00 BTC amounts there?
 370 2013-01-19 03:42:55 <kjj> I just told you.  it isn't zero
 371 2013-01-19 03:43:01 <gladoss> ^^
 372 2013-01-19 03:43:01 zooko``` has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 373 2013-01-19 03:43:16 <kjj> "value" : 0.00000001,
 374 2013-01-19 03:43:32 <gladoss> someone once sent me like 400,000,000 or something ripples
 375 2013-01-19 03:43:40 <gladoss> was actually in int form (like satoshis) :P
 376 2013-01-19 03:43:45 <muhoo> kjj: thank you
 377 2013-01-19 03:44:37 <gladoss> so, umm, is checking that outputs are >= 3 a good way of detecting sendmany transactions?
 378 2013-01-19 03:44:45 <muhoo> but why such a tiny amount? that's why i keep asking if it's a fee or something
 379 2013-01-19 03:44:59 <stealth222> gladoss: yes, only one change output is ever used by bitcoind
 380 2013-01-19 03:45:20 <stealth222> gladoss: but if there is no change needed then it won't use any change outputs
 381 2013-01-19 03:45:40 <stealth222> so even a two output transaction in principle could be a sendmany
 382 2013-01-19 03:46:07 <kjj> sendmany doesn't really exist though.  :)
 383 2013-01-19 03:46:30 <gladoss> yeah, it's just an API call, but the transaction view will be confusing if someone sends one TX and they see 3 :)
 384 2013-01-19 03:47:16 da2ce747 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 385 2013-01-19 03:47:32 <kjj> muhoo:  that transaction redeems a send to satoshi dice.  the single satoshi is sent back to show the loss
 386 2013-01-19 03:49:03 <kjj> http://satoshidice.com/bits.php  <-- last paragraph
 387 2013-01-19 03:49:19 <muhoo> oh, cool, thanks
 388 2013-01-19 03:49:55 fiesh_ has joined
 389 2013-01-19 03:50:09 <gladoss> If  you're not sure, test with .001 Bitcoins. << outdated
 390 2013-01-19 03:50:11 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 391 2013-01-19 03:51:47 <muhoo> i wonder what proportion of total bitcoin transactions seen are people playing satoshi dice
 392 2013-01-19 03:52:09 <stealth222> it's a very large number
 393 2013-01-19 03:52:10 <muhoo> it seems like a lot of those 1-satoshi transactions fly by
 394 2013-01-19 03:52:13 <kjj> heh.
 395 2013-01-19 03:53:26 <kjj> on this day in 2012, the blockchain was 924285092 bytes.  today it is 2097197999+2097167956+852775286 bytes
 396 2013-01-19 03:53:34 <muhoo> well it should be easy to calculate, just count all the transactions, and look for those 0.000001 amounts
 397 2013-01-19 03:53:58 <kjj> actually, it is even easier than that.  all of their addresses are public knowledge
 398 2013-01-19 03:54:19 <stealth222> yes - moreover, there are transactions with .00000001 amounts unrelated to satoshi dice
 399 2013-01-19 03:54:39 <kjj> and not every transaction there gives a single satoshi return, just some of them
 400 2013-01-19 03:54:56 <muhoo> just the non-winning ones, IIUC
 401 2013-01-19 03:55:42 <kjj> no, losses aren't total.  they return half a percent, which gets rounded down to 1 satoshi if the return amount is less than their standard transaction fee
 402 2013-01-19 03:56:09 <gladoss> yup, so if you bet 500 BTC you'd still get 2.4995 BTC :)
 403 2013-01-19 03:56:19 <muhoo> "It is generally considered to be DDoS attack against the Bitcoin network since it is bypassing the built-in anti-DDoS features of Bitcoin " really?
 404 2013-01-19 03:56:33 <gladoss> muhoo: ???
 405 2013-01-19 03:56:40 <muhoo> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/SatoshiDice
 406 2013-01-19 03:56:54 <gladoss> alright, who wrote that
 407 2013-01-19 03:56:55 <muhoo> heh [citation needed]
 408 2013-01-19 03:57:39 <stealth222> that article is soooo inaccurate
 409 2013-01-19 03:57:41 <muhoo> "SatoshiDice forces players to pay a transaction fee on each result so the spam will successfully flood both the p2p relay network and the blockchain."
 410 2013-01-19 03:57:41 <stealth222> in more than one place
 411 2013-01-19 03:57:58 <gladoss> This is better: "SatoshiDice has been criticized for the amount of load it puts on the Bitcoin network. SatoshiDice automatically sends a single transaction as a response to each bet, even if the bet in question isn't a winning one. Combined with the amount of bets the service receives at hourly rate, it has become responsible for most of the transaction volume broadcasted in the Bitcoin network"
 412 2013-01-19 03:58:06 <stealth222> "There has been the suggestion that the service might be also be used as a mixing service" - lol
 413 2013-01-19 03:58:17 <gladoss> LOL
 414 2013-01-19 03:58:27 <gladoss> oh wow
 415 2013-01-19 03:59:08 <gladoss> look at this :P http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/segz0/anyone_want_to_run_my_bitcoin_casino
 416 2013-01-19 03:59:08 <kjj> suggested by someone that has never ripped apart a s.dice transaction chain to see the winnings return to the same key that sent them
 417 2013-01-19 03:59:15 <gladoss> http://1209k.com/bitcasino/
 418 2013-01-19 03:59:21 <muhoo> well if these blockchains keep getting huge, and most of that is just betting, maybe there's somethign to that, i dunno
 419 2013-01-19 03:59:38 <gladoss> muhoo: it is, which is why 0.8 has pruning
 420 2013-01-19 04:00:00 <muhoo> cool, glad to hear that.
 421 2013-01-19 04:03:01 <muhoo> blockchain grew by 5x in 1 year? really?
 422 2013-01-19 04:03:46 <muhoo> pruning sounds like a good idea indeed.
 423 2013-01-19 04:06:26 <gladoss> muhoo: if bitcoin becomes real popular
 424 2013-01-19 04:06:37 <gladoss> most transactions probably won't be done on the blockchain
 425 2013-01-19 04:07:06 <stealth222> ripple?
 426 2013-01-19 04:07:10 <muhoo> wait, huh?
 427 2013-01-19 04:07:45 <muhoo> i thought the blockchain was kind of the center of the whole system. transactions aren't "real" until included in a few blocks, etc?
 428 2013-01-19 04:08:03 <muhoo> or am i totally misunderstanding
 429 2013-01-19 04:08:33 <stealth222> they must be done on the block chain for it to remain a zero-trust system
 430 2013-01-19 04:08:58 <stealth222> you could get around the block chain either with trust or with centralization
 431 2013-01-19 04:09:03 <stealth222> either of which defeats the purpose of the block chain
 432 2013-01-19 04:09:07 <gladoss> muhoo: yeah, but in the future you'd probably directly send coins to satoshiDICE from MyWalletz.com
 433 2013-01-19 04:11:17 <muhoo> ah, ok, that makes a lot of sense. use it in web-of-trust mode like gpg, or in centralized mode like SSL, very roughly by analogy.
 434 2013-01-19 04:11:37 <muhoo> no need for a web of trust if there's a central authority, and vice versa
 435 2013-01-19 04:14:32 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
 436 2013-01-19 04:15:29 <stealth222> having said that, it would be entirely possible to use a hybrid system which only uses the block chain to consolidate groups of transactions
 437 2013-01-19 04:16:43 <stealth222> or with a hard fork (or merged mining), to flip the chain
 438 2013-01-19 04:19:23 <gladoss> so I sent an email to the owner of bitcasino (what became satoshidice)
 439 2013-01-19 04:19:32 <gladoss> "Hi, what do you feel about selling bitcasino?" -> "I am making a note here: HUGE SUCCESS"
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 443 2013-01-19 04:54:26 <muhoo> ok, testnet. should i be using irc discovery, or manually use peers like plan99.net, or dns discovery?
 444 2013-01-19 04:54:32 LargoG has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 445 2013-01-19 04:54:43 * muhoo maybe should read the c++ client source to see what it does first
 446 2013-01-19 04:56:12 <etotheipi_> can anyone suggest where I might pick up a few 256-bit prime numbers?  it doesn't even matter where they are from, as long as they are prime
 447 2013-01-19 04:56:32 <etotheipi_> oh, I guess the order of an elliptic curve must be prime, eh?
 448 2013-01-19 04:57:13 <stealth222> it can also be GF(2^k)
 449 2013-01-19 04:57:32 <stealth222> no?
 450 2013-01-19 04:58:57 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
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 453 2013-01-19 04:59:57 <stealth222> or no, the field which it's over can be GF(2^k)
 454 2013-01-19 05:00:38 <kjj> http://primes.utm.edu/lists/2small/200bit.html
 455 2013-01-19 05:01:13 <stealth222> yeah, there are a few there
 456 2013-01-19 05:02:21 <etotheipi_> ooh, interesting
 457 2013-01-19 05:02:23 <etotheipi_> and perfect
 458 2013-01-19 05:02:29 <etotheipi_> I even get 10 of them!
 459 2013-01-19 05:02:46 freakazoid has joined
 460 2013-01-19 05:02:54 <etotheipi_> I'm surprised they're so closely spaced
 461 2013-01-19 05:02:57 <etotheipi_> or maybe I shouldn't be surprised
 462 2013-01-19 05:04:20 <kjj> one thing I've learned from reading books on number theory...  none of it means shit
 463 2013-01-19 05:04:24 <stealth222> the average gap between prime numbers among the first N integers goes as log N
 464 2013-01-19 05:04:43 <etotheipi_> oh, fair enough
 465 2013-01-19 05:04:53 <jgarzik> theory on theory... meta-theory?
 466 2013-01-19 05:05:35 <muhoo> did number theory have any practical application before cyptography?
 467 2013-01-19 05:05:48 <copumpkin> coding
 468 2013-01-19 05:05:52 <kjj> oddly enough, yes
 469 2013-01-19 05:06:20 <gladoss> copumpkin: not really
 470 2013-01-19 05:06:49 <kjj> I think he meant coding like reed-solomon, lzw, etc.
 471 2013-01-19 05:06:51 * muhoo downloads the testnet blockchain over HDSPA+
 472 2013-01-19 05:07:44 <copumpkin> yeah, that
 473 2013-01-19 05:08:15 <stealth222> arguably, coding and cryptography are part of the same area of study
 474 2013-01-19 05:08:58 <copumpkin> math/CS/information theory? ;)
 475 2013-01-19 05:09:53 <stealth222> number theory has many "practical" applications in proving math theorems (if you really want to call that practical)
 476 2013-01-19 05:10:05 <kjj> babbage and ada were working on numerical methods using number theory long ago
 477 2013-01-19 05:10:08 <stealth222> some of these theorems can have applications outside of mathematics
 478 2013-01-19 05:10:08 BGL has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 479 2013-01-19 05:12:10 <stealth222> http://empslocal.ex.ac.uk/people/staff/mrwatkin/zeta/physics.htm
 480 2013-01-19 05:13:35 <stealth222> or at least outside of "pure mathematics"
 481 2013-01-19 05:23:17 <muhoo> nice, the most recent block on the test network is feb 27
 482 2013-01-19 05:23:35 <stealth222> there's testnet3
 483 2013-01-19 05:25:30 <muhoo> hmm no, looks like most recent is jan 16 2013, prior to that it was feb 27 2012
 484 2013-01-19 05:26:44 <muhoo> yeah, looks like TEST3 is what the c++ client uses. hrmph.
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 488 2013-01-19 06:00:32 <jgarzik> muhoo: testnet3 reliably produces blocks as expected, with the most recent being minutes ago
 489 2013-01-19 06:00:50 <muhoo> yep, it does, i'm on there now, thanks
 490 2013-01-19 06:01:18 zooko```` has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 491 2013-01-19 06:01:29 <muhoo> either the bitcoinj defaults aren't up to date or i had it misconfigured
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 519 2013-01-19 08:36:57 <Goonie> BlueMatt: I saw your pull request for bitcoin that swaps tx and filtered blocks. I tested and it does not work with the current bitcoinj bloom branch. No a single tx is confirmed.
 520 2013-01-19 08:43:47 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 521 2013-01-19 08:49:06 grau has joined
 522 2013-01-19 08:53:23 <stealth222> is there a way to push a branch with completely modified history to github and still have it show the old history?
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 526 2013-01-19 09:03:19 <SomeoneWeird> how do you expect that to work, stealth222
 527 2013-01-19 09:04:09 <stealth222> SomeoneWeird: well, I'm doing a merge of one of my branches with bitcoin/bitcoin master and want to push it...but would like the commit history I had for the old branch to remain. I can't do a rebase without some serious headaches.
 528 2013-01-19 09:04:23 <stealth222> I mean, I would like it to remain visible
 529 2013-01-19 09:04:30 <stealth222> even if it is no longer part of the branch
 530 2013-01-19 09:04:35 Garr255 has quit (Quit: Peace.)
 531 2013-01-19 09:05:52 <SomeoneWeird> not sure if git can do that
 532 2013-01-19 09:05:59 <SomeoneWeird> maybe it can, ask around
 533 2013-01-19 09:06:23 <stealth222> I suppose I could create a new branch for it
 534 2013-01-19 09:06:37 <stealth222> and just force update the branch for the pull request
 535 2013-01-19 09:06:51 <SomeoneWeird> you'd lose the history though doing that wouldn't you?
 536 2013-01-19 09:07:15 <stealth222> what I'm saying is that I could fork the branch I currently have committed in the branch to a new branch, then force update the old branch
 537 2013-01-19 09:07:24 <SomeoneWeird> ah
 538 2013-01-19 09:07:28 <SomeoneWeird> dunno
 539 2013-01-19 09:07:34 <SomeoneWeird> drop into #git || #github and ask
 540 2013-01-19 09:07:37 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 541 2013-01-19 09:07:42 <stealth222> yeah, good idea
 542 2013-01-19 09:10:36 <stealth222> seems like just creating a new branch for the old one is the way to go
 543 2013-01-19 09:11:08 <stealth222> unfortunately that might destroy many of the relevant discussion comments
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 551 2013-01-19 09:27:26 <muhoo> ow i just wasted 4 hours trying to get bitcoinj to work on the testnet3, and failed
 552 2013-01-19 09:28:24 <muhoo> it connects via irc, gets the list of peers, none of them base58 validate though
 553 2013-01-19 09:28:33 <SomeoneWeird> irc
 554 2013-01-19 09:28:33 <SomeoneWeird> way
 555 2013-01-19 09:28:34 <SomeoneWeird> t
 556 2013-01-19 09:28:36 <SomeoneWeird> wat
 557 2013-01-19 09:28:41 <muhoo> testnet
 558 2013-01-19 09:28:41 <SomeoneWeird> who uses irc >.>
 559 2013-01-19 09:28:52 <muhoo> bitcoinTEST3
 560 2013-01-19 09:28:58 <SomeoneWeird> what testnet still uses irc to bootstrap?
 561 2013-01-19 09:29:25 <kuzetsa> SomeoneWeird: I'm pretty sure that's normal. but only on testnet.
 562 2013-01-19 09:29:31 <SomeoneWeird> ic
 563 2013-01-19 09:29:58 InsuDra has joined
 564 2013-01-19 09:30:16 <muhoo> what's bizarre is that it works fine on testnet, but not on testnet3.
 565 2013-01-19 09:31:30 stealth222 is now known as CodeShark
 566 2013-01-19 09:31:39 <muhoo> and i'm guessing that the two are not interconnected in any way
 567 2013-01-19 09:33:01 <MC1984> how do you even get on testnet
 568 2013-01-19 09:33:01 Insu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 569 2013-01-19 09:33:08 <MC1984> i thought testnet3 was the only one
 570 2013-01-19 09:36:21 <muhoo> #bitcoinTEST
 571 2013-01-19 09:37:10 <muhoo> works like a boss with bitcoinj
 572 2013-01-19 09:37:20 <muhoo> #bitcoinTEST3, no luck
 573 2013-01-19 09:37:43 <muhoo> ohy thing i can think of is maybe the base58 format changed.
 574 2013-01-19 09:38:12 <SomeoneWeird> sounds like the most likely reason
 575 2013-01-19 09:39:54 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 576 2013-01-19 09:40:00 <CodeShark> you need to change the magic bytes
 577 2013-01-19 09:40:02 <CodeShark> did you do that?
 578 2013-01-19 09:40:09 <CodeShark> testnet3 uses entirely different magic bytes
 579 2013-01-19 09:40:17 <muhoo> fuuuuu
 580 2013-01-19 09:40:29 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 581 2013-01-19 09:40:31 tcatm has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 582 2013-01-19 09:40:31 <muhoo> no, i did not know that. i don't know how i could have known that.
 583 2013-01-19 09:40:47 tcatm has joined
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 585 2013-01-19 09:40:48 tcatm has joined
 586 2013-01-19 09:41:06 <CodeShark> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Message_structure
 587 2013-01-19 09:41:11 copumpkin has joined
 588 2013-01-19 09:41:58 <muhoo> thanks
 589 2013-01-19 09:49:00 <CodeShark> hmmm, I guess force update of a branch with a completely different merged branch doesn't remove the previous comments and commits from the discussion
 590 2013-01-19 09:54:17 <muhoo> holy crap, that was just ridiculous. looks like bitcoinj already suppported testnet3. :-/
 591 2013-01-19 09:55:25 <muhoo> the key was NetworkParameter.testNet3 not NetworkParameters.testNet. totally separate from IrcDiscovery("#bitcoinTEST3")
 592 2013-01-19 09:56:41 <muhoo> the magic bytes are inside that NetworkParameters. ok, my evening is complete now.
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 603 2013-01-19 10:20:31 <ThomasV> 67 btc as fee.. did someone make another mistake?
 604 2013-01-19 10:20:50 <ThomasV> (67 btc over 1 day)
 605 2013-01-19 10:20:56 <slush> damn, why not in my block? :(
 606 2013-01-19 10:21:11 sgornick has joined
 607 2013-01-19 10:21:24 <SomeoneWeird> wow
 608 2013-01-19 10:21:30 <SomeoneWeird> ;;calc 67*[ticker --last]
 609 2013-01-19 10:21:31 <gribble> 1040.68152
 610 2013-01-19 10:21:34 <SomeoneWeird> someone oughta be pissed
 611 2013-01-19 10:21:46 <ThomasV> I'm wondering is this was a single tx, or if this is caused by the increase in transactions
 612 2013-01-19 10:22:09 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 613 2013-01-19 10:22:47 <ThomasV> (61641 transactions)
 614 2013-01-19 10:23:48 <ThomasV> it would be nice to have a "last transactions with largest fees"  page
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 617 2013-01-19 10:25:57 <ThomasV> hmm, according to blockchain.info, blockchain.info managed 25% of all transactions today :/
 618 2013-01-19 10:26:50 B0g4r7 has joined
 619 2013-01-19 10:26:52 <ThomasV> looks like they are a systemic risk..
 620 2013-01-19 10:27:45 <slush> ThomasV: where do you see these stats?
 621 2013-01-19 10:27:56 <ThomasV> on their page
 622 2013-01-19 10:28:09 <ThomasV> http://blockchain.info/charts/my-wallet-n-tx
 623 2013-01-19 10:28:48 <slush> ThomasV: how do you know it is 25%?
 624 2013-01-19 10:29:21 grau has joined
 625 2013-01-19 10:29:23 <ThomasV> because I divided 15000 by the total, and multiplied by 100 :)
 626 2013-01-19 10:29:56 <Scrat> that's... scary
 627 2013-01-19 10:30:22 <SomeoneWeird> it is
 628 2013-01-19 10:30:23 <slush> ThomasV: excuse me, but where did you find 15k?
 629 2013-01-19 10:30:36 <slush> bitcoinwatch.com: ~60k txes in last 24 hours
 630 2013-01-19 10:30:39 <ThomasV> I wonder what happens if their page gets replaced by the FBI's logo
 631 2013-01-19 10:31:09 <ThomasV> slush: see the graph
 632 2013-01-19 10:31:20 <SomeoneWeird> can anyone say mybtc?
 633 2013-01-19 10:31:20 <SomeoneWeird> :X
 634 2013-01-19 10:31:32 <ThomasV> Someguy123: mybtc!!!
 635 2013-01-19 10:31:41 <ThomasV> err, SomeoneWeird !
 636 2013-01-19 10:31:54 <slush> ThomasV: I see that graph. Can you please write full sentence?
 637 2013-01-19 10:32:11 <Scrat> but if it's smart then a mywallet to mywallet transaction won't be broadcasted to the network
 638 2013-01-19 10:32:12 <ThomasV> slush: last point is 15k tx
 639 2013-01-19 10:32:15 <SomeoneWeird> slush, it says that 15002 txs
 640 2013-01-19 10:32:21 Z0rZ0rZ0r has joined
 641 2013-01-19 10:32:26 <Scrat> broadcast*
 642 2013-01-19 10:32:42 <ThomasV> Scrat: no, it will be
 643 2013-01-19 10:32:55 <Scrat> yeah probably. since they keep balance for all addresses
 644 2013-01-19 10:32:58 <ThomasV> Scrat: mywallet does not manage your coins internally
 645 2013-01-19 10:33:26 <Scrat> ah, right
 646 2013-01-19 10:33:30 <Scrat> that's done client side
 647 2013-01-19 10:33:41 <Scrat> who's up for making a b.i clone
 648 2013-01-19 10:33:41 <Scrat> lol
 649 2013-01-19 10:33:56 <slush> ok, now I see, 15k/60k ~ 25%
 650 2013-01-19 10:34:09 BlackPrapor has joined
 651 2013-01-19 10:34:13 <ThomasV> Scrat: I think there's already been phishing attempts, iirc
 652 2013-01-19 10:34:36 <Scrat> also
 653 2013-01-19 10:35:04 <Scrat> I bet most of these tx's are SD since the UI is really easy to use
 654 2013-01-19 10:35:17 <Scrat> there's 2 tx's per SD roll
 655 2013-01-19 10:35:30 <Scrat> the real amount should be much lower than 25%
 656 2013-01-19 10:35:47 <Scrat> but still scary :)
 657 2013-01-19 10:36:16 <ThomasV> are you saying that the proportion of SD txs is higher for users of mywallet?
 658 2013-01-19 10:36:33 <ThomasV> (compared to other wallet)
 659 2013-01-19 10:36:34 <Scrat> possibly yes
 660 2013-01-19 10:36:43 <ThomasV> why? lower IQ?
 661 2013-01-19 10:37:41 <ThomasV> it would be nice indeed to know about that
 662 2013-01-19 10:37:45 <SomeoneWeird> lollllll
 663 2013-01-19 10:37:53 <SomeoneWeird> <ThomasV> why? lower IQ? < more than likely
 664 2013-01-19 10:37:59 <ThomasV> hehe
 665 2013-01-19 10:38:08 <Scrat> I have fallen victim to it
 666 2013-01-19 10:38:29 <ThomasV> we should ask piuk to publish figures :)
 667 2013-01-19 10:39:23 <ThomasV> slush: the question is, how do we get those users to use Electrum instead of blockchain.info
 668 2013-01-19 10:40:04 <slush> ThomasV: make Electrum more user friendly :)
 669 2013-01-19 10:40:21 <ThomasV> slush: how?
 670 2013-01-19 10:40:31 BlackPrapor has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
 671 2013-01-19 10:42:09 <ThomasV> I guess a web interface to Electrum is the only way to compete
 672 2013-01-19 10:42:24 <ThomasV> installing software is a pain
 673 2013-01-19 10:42:54 <ThomasV> it should be a browser addon
 674 2013-01-19 10:43:23 <slush> ThomasV: you mean something like blockchain.info built on top of electrum servers?
 675 2013-01-19 10:43:29 <Scrat> clients need to be sexier
 676 2013-01-19 10:43:35 <Scrat> here's a quick mockup I made http://i.imgur.com/BikfHIg.png
 677 2013-01-19 10:43:44 <slush> I don't like desktop clients with web interface, it looks strange for common users
 678 2013-01-19 10:43:48 <ThomasV> slush: yes. not necessaryly on top of a server
 679 2013-01-19 10:44:30 <slush> ThomasV: I'm using Electrum personally, but I still cannot recommend it for users who ask me for some bitcoin client.
 680 2013-01-19 10:44:34 <ThomasV> Scrat: do you know the lite gui of electrum?
 681 2013-01-19 10:44:45 <Scrat> ThomasV: yes :p
 682 2013-01-19 10:45:02 <ThomasV> Scrat: why don't you propose your layout to animazing?
 683 2013-01-19 10:46:21 <Scrat> need to work on it more
 684 2013-01-19 10:46:24 <slush> ThomasV: Although things got better recently, Electrum is sometimes like a black magic. Sometimes it doesn't connect (because of failed server), but electrum doesn't tell anything. There's very little possibilities to know what went wrong, if you're not a poweruser.
 685 2013-01-19 10:46:40 twobitcoins_ has joined
 686 2013-01-19 10:47:04 <slush> Also these flags and P/F shortcuts in server dialog are confusing
 687 2013-01-19 10:47:19 Cylta has joined
 688 2013-01-19 10:47:24 <slush> Shortly said, that GUI has been designed by programmers for programmers.
 689 2013-01-19 10:47:35 <Scrat> it sucks for developers, but a sleek client should use native libs
 690 2013-01-19 10:48:03 <Scrat> gtk on linux, wpf on windows, cocoa on darwin
 691 2013-01-19 10:48:04 <ThomasV> slush: why don't you write another ui?
 692 2013-01-19 10:48:19 <slush> lol
 693 2013-01-19 10:48:30 <slush> Electrum has 5 GUIs already
 694 2013-01-19 10:48:39 <ThomasV> I'm open to more
 695 2013-01-19 10:48:46 <slush> that's exactly wrong
 696 2013-01-19 10:48:49 <CodeShark> why not use Qt on all of the above? :)
 697 2013-01-19 10:48:54 <Scrat> sometimes consolidation is better than choice
 698 2013-01-19 10:48:55 <slush> users don't want 100 UIs, they want good one
 699 2013-01-19 10:49:00 <Scrat> yep
 700 2013-01-19 10:49:09 <slush> that's EXACTLY where Electrum failed
 701 2013-01-19 10:49:18 <Scrat> this is why Apple is so successful
 702 2013-01-19 10:49:20 twobitcoins has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 703 2013-01-19 10:49:42 <Scrat> you have no choice but what you do have works perfectly and is good enough for most users
 704 2013-01-19 10:51:25 <ThomasV> competition can be good too
 705 2013-01-19 10:51:38 <slush> ThomasV: then don't do it in one codebase
 706 2013-01-19 10:51:55 <ThomasV> why?
 707 2013-01-19 10:53:07 <slush> I'd like to see "electrumlib" in PYPI, which will do all lowlevel stuff, crypto, server connections, wallet file management.  This would add another magnitude of flexibility, because people will be able to use Electrum platform for all kinds of stuff AND for doing their clean GUIs
 708 2013-01-19 10:53:25 <ThomasV> I see
 709 2013-01-19 10:53:37 <slush> Unfortunately I don't have time to work on Electrum as much as I want
 710 2013-01-19 10:53:45 <ThomasV> yes I agree, but that's too early for that
 711 2013-01-19 10:53:59 <slush> Early for what? For having clean code separation ? :)
 712 2013-01-19 10:54:04 <ThomasV> yes
 713 2013-01-19 10:54:18 <ThomasV> things still need to be changed
 714 2013-01-19 10:54:43 <slush> Isn't that just lacking of initial design?
 715 2013-01-19 10:55:03 <ThomasV> it's easy to criticize..
 716 2013-01-19 10:55:13 <slush> Everytime you'll make incompatible change, one kitty will die.
 717 2013-01-19 10:56:11 <slush> Dont' get me wrong, I think Electrum has a potential, but I think financial app should have better codebase.
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 720 2013-01-19 10:56:57 ahbritto_ has joined
 721 2013-01-19 10:57:25 <slush> btw I'm not criticizing past or current state, I'm criticizing your attitude.
 722 2013-01-19 10:57:34 <slush> like "it's too early to make things correctly"
 723 2013-01-19 10:57:44 <ThomasV> what do you mean?
 724 2013-01-19 10:58:09 <ThomasV> hmm, I'm doing 99% of the work, and I'm not going fast enough?
 725 2013-01-19 10:58:24 <Scrat> I wish I knew python
 726 2013-01-19 10:58:25 <slush> working harder doesn't mean working better!
 727 2013-01-19 10:58:28 <Scrat> never too late to start I guess
 728 2013-01-19 10:58:41 <ThomasV> sorry, but SPV was kind of a priority
 729 2013-01-19 11:00:50 twixed has joined
 730 2013-01-19 11:01:29 <ThomasV> and fyi, the amount on time I can spend on it is limited too
 731 2013-01-19 11:06:12 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 733 2013-01-19 11:14:44 <grau> slush: did you take a look of bitsofproof ? Your feedback would be appretiated.
 734 2013-01-19 11:15:17 <slush> ThomasV: yes, SPV was perfect step
 735 2013-01-19 11:16:13 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 736 2013-01-19 11:19:47 <grau> slush: https://github.com/bitsofproof/supernode/wiki
 737 2013-01-19 11:19:57 <slush> grau: I'm reading it just now
 738 2013-01-19 11:19:59 sgornick has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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 740 2013-01-19 11:21:36 <slush> grau: what's the current state of this?
 741 2013-01-19 11:21:53 <grau> it validates all testnet3, production chains
 742 2013-01-19 11:22:00 <grau> passes bitcoind unit tests
 743 2013-01-19 11:22:14 <grau> It runs in sync with prod sincs weks
 744 2013-01-19 11:22:26 <grau> I am now adapting the blocktester to it
 745 2013-01-19 11:22:57 <grau> I would say it ready for production within months
 746 2013-01-19 11:23:10 <grau> I would like to launch it in San Jose
 747 2013-01-19 11:23:35 <slush> grau: Does it work as a full bitcoin node, e.g. does it accept incoming connections, broadcast blocks, discover new nodes etc?
 748 2013-01-19 11:23:41 <grau> yes
 749 2013-01-19 11:23:48 <slush> perfect, I'm going to try it
 750 2013-01-19 11:23:56 <grau> and it is radically modular
 751 2013-01-19 11:24:12 <grau> it has a trusted message bus e.g to feed validated transactions and block templates
 752 2013-01-19 11:24:24 <grau> I expect this unlocks the innovation you look for
 753 2013-01-19 11:25:08 <slush> yes
 754 2013-01-19 11:26:40 <grau> Let me know what you need. I would be interested to build the enterprise version of bitcoin. I am also geographically near to you :)
 755 2013-01-19 11:26:43 Impaler has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 757 2013-01-19 11:28:10 <slush> grau: where are you from?
 758 2013-01-19 11:28:33 <grau> Budapest
 759 2013-01-19 11:28:52 ThomasV has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 760 2013-01-19 11:29:08 <slush> well, not exactly "near", but also not so far :)
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 765 2013-01-19 11:31:39 <grau> I have to go skating with the kids now, please let me know what you think of it and what you would need for your operation. I am serious in building the enterprise server for bitcoin.
 766 2013-01-19 11:32:01 <daybyter> What do you wanna do?
 767 2013-01-19 11:32:15 <grau> skating with the kids :)
 768 2013-01-19 11:32:21 <daybyter> Cool!
 769 2013-01-19 11:32:28 <slush> grau: I see. I'm testing it right now. I'm not so skilled in Java, so it takes some time
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 771 2013-01-19 11:32:37 <daybyter> <= loves Java...
 772 2013-01-19 11:32:48 <grau> Seriously: I build a modular platform for bitcoin enterprises
 773 2013-01-19 11:33:21 <daybyter> mmh...define 'enterprises'
 774 2013-01-19 11:33:28 <grau> merchants
 775 2013-01-19 11:33:47 gjs278 has joined
 776 2013-01-19 11:33:48 <daybyter> add litecoin and ask Greedi...
 777 2013-01-19 11:33:57 <grau> People who want to do business with bitcoin and need to add propriatery functions and integrate with existing eother software
 778 2013-01-19 11:34:23 <daybyter> mmmh...many shops are in php?
 779 2013-01-19 11:34:30 <daybyter> so why Java?
 780 2013-01-19 11:34:35 <slush> grau: btw is there any documentation about that internal bus?
 781 2013-01-19 11:34:47 <slush> I expect it reuses some Java messaging protocol with custom messages...
 782 2013-01-19 11:34:54 <SomeoneWeird> writing bindings are easy, daybyter
 783 2013-01-19 11:35:00 <SomeoneWeird>  /libraries
 784 2013-01-19 11:35:10 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 785 2013-01-19 11:35:23 <grau> The point is not Java but that it has a database of transactions suitable for audit
 786 2013-01-19 11:35:36 <grau> It has an API focused on busines use not for hacker
 787 2013-01-19 11:35:49 <daybyter> mmh...I use JDBC atm to store trades etc...
 788 2013-01-19 11:36:29 <grau> It uses levelDB if you want speed or a relational DB if you need audit
 789 2013-01-19 11:36:42 <SomeoneWeird> neat
 790 2013-01-19 11:36:55 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 791 2013-01-19 11:36:56 * SomeoneWeird <3 nosql
 792 2013-01-19 11:37:06 <grau> You can connect to its message bus and receive validated transactions subscribe to transactions of adresses you like
 793 2013-01-19 11:37:16 gjs278 has joined
 794 2013-01-19 11:37:17 <grau> It offers you account statement API out of the box
 795 2013-01-19 11:37:23 <grau> account history
 796 2013-01-19 11:37:32 <slush> grau: Is it full or SPV node? Or both?
 797 2013-01-19 11:37:40 <grau> it is full only
 798 2013-01-19 11:38:32 b4epoche has joined
 799 2013-01-19 11:39:30 <grau> slush: You do not need to access the bus directly the BCSAPIBus interface gives you convinient wrapper to it
 800 2013-01-19 11:40:16 <grau> slush: If you look for its implementation it is ApolloMQ that supports different distribution e.g. Websockets too
 801 2013-01-19 11:41:23 <grau> Now, kids are waiting. Lets stay in touch.
 802 2013-01-19 11:41:32 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 803 2013-01-19 11:45:48 <daybyter> Anyone interested in trading stuff in Java?
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 861 2013-01-19 14:09:55 <Diapolo> wumpus: If you had time to look at the recent Qt pulls it would be nice to get a small status-update from you, if you consider them mergable :).
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 863 2013-01-19 14:11:19 <Luke-Jr> fewer and fewer changes seem to be happening :<
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 865 2013-01-19 14:12:12 * Luke-Jr ponders if there's a correlation between economics and development/merges
 866 2013-01-19 14:12:50 <Diapolo> Luke-Jr: I'm working on ironing out bugs and looking over the Qt issues list, but without code review or tests (perhaps even via test-next) the progress will not get faster :-/
 867 2013-01-19 14:13:20 <Diapolo> Luke-Jr: at least for me economics is irrelevant as I lost all my coins via a scam and have none anyway :D
 868 2013-01-19 14:13:42 <Luke-Jr> I suppose it's overdue for another next[-test]… problem is I'm still stuck on 201209 since leveldb has refused to work reasonably for me last time
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 870 2013-01-19 14:14:24 <Diapolo> What was the problem with leveldb?
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 873 2013-01-19 14:16:06 <Diapolo> anyway, I think that Qt changes will most likely get tested if they are integrated in your test binaries
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 875 2013-01-19 14:16:52 <Diapolo> you are also free to give feedback on the code ^^ I think you are one of the devs who is rather frequently using or at least gets frequent question on bitcoin-qt
 876 2013-01-19 14:17:20 <Luke-Jr> Diapolo: not really sure, just had a lot of trouble trying to get it to even bootstrap on Eligius
 877 2013-01-19 14:18:40 <Diapolo> is this an OS related problem you think or a general one? I did not try the bootstrap.dat process, just IBD and reindex
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 881 2013-01-19 14:22:18 <Diapolo> luke-jr: I need to leave ^^ Bundesliga is on it's way :D
 882 2013-01-19 14:22:42 <Luke-Jr> well, I meant bootstrap generally - I was reindexing IIRC
 883 2013-01-19 14:22:44 <Luke-Jr> ttyl
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 886 2013-01-19 14:30:33 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: I thought of a noncontrived example of when it's a nice thing to be able to know the transaction fee before sending - if you want to transfer everything out of one wallet and move it to another
 887 2013-01-19 14:31:04 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: yeah, I suppose - but unfortunately, that doesn't make it any easier to do :/
 888 2013-01-19 14:31:25 <Luke-Jr> although, I guess for that one case, you're spending all your coins, so it's not very random
 889 2013-01-19 14:32:03 <Luke-Jr> ironically, there are probably edge cases where sending the entire wallet is impossible
 890 2013-01-19 14:32:34 <Luke-Jr> for example, if it only needs a fee after you include the final fee-sized coin
 891 2013-01-19 14:32:47 <CodeShark> heh
 892 2013-01-19 14:33:40 <CodeShark> you could still send the whole wallet by paying the fee
 893 2013-01-19 14:34:22 <CodeShark> but you probably would prefer to just not send that fee-sized coin
 894 2013-01-19 14:38:32 <CodeShark> say you have an unspent output of .0007 btc, the rest of your unspent outputs are well over .01 btc and are under 10kb (or whatever the free limit is)
 895 2013-01-19 14:39:22 <CodeShark> so sending everything except this .0007 is free, sending this .0007 will cost you .0005
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 897 2013-01-19 14:40:06 <CodeShark> I'd say in practically all these instances, you'd still want to send the remaining .0002 even if it costs you .0005
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 899 2013-01-19 14:44:39 <CodeShark> but yeah, it's funny - you couldn't send a .0005 final fee-sized coin even if you wanted to :)
 900 2013-01-19 14:46:43 <CodeShark> well...I suppose you could deliberately choose to pay a .00051 fee
 901 2013-01-19 14:46:55 <CodeShark> or a .00050001 fee
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 957 2013-01-19 17:44:50 <Turingi> who determines transaction fees? is it the initiator of the transaction "I will pay 0.00005 BTC to the winner of the next block if my transaction is included in it"?
 958 2013-01-19 17:46:10 <kjj> the fee is fixed when the transaction is created.  the statement is more like "I will pay X BTC to the finder of the first future block that contains this transaction"
 959 2013-01-19 17:50:43 <jgarzik> +1
 960 2013-01-19 17:51:07 <jgarzik> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
 961 2013-01-19 17:52:00 <kjj> I'm telling you, we still need a technical primer
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 968 2013-01-19 18:25:00 <Turingi> ok, how is the BTC network time determined when calculating the difficulty correction factor?
 969 2013-01-19 18:26:59 <kjj> I'm not sure what to make of your question.  are you asking how each node calculates time offsets from peers?  or are you asking how intervals are calculated for difficulty adjustments?
 970 2013-01-19 18:27:39 <Turingi> kjj: would it be possible for people to change network time if they controlled a lot of online identities?
 971 2013-01-19 18:28:00 <Turingi> say, to force a different difficulty adjustment
 972 2013-01-19 18:28:11 <Turingi> to adjust it higher or lower after the 2016 blocks
 973 2013-01-19 18:28:56 <Turingi> that is the only point where real time enters bitcoin calculation
 974 2013-01-19 18:30:15 <kjj> I don't think so, at least not to a meaningful degree.  that's not a very good answer, but I can think of two people that would have already jumped on it if they could
 975 2013-01-19 18:31:26 <kjj> the network time adjustment only factors into accepting blocks with timestamps in the future
 976 2013-01-19 18:32:55 <kjj> and the code only allows 70 minutes of time adjustment
 977 2013-01-19 18:33:36 <kjj> so, worst case, they could make a difficulty window appear to be 10150 hours instead of 10080
 978 2013-01-19 18:33:42 <kjj> er, minutes rather
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 980 2013-01-19 18:35:45 <kjj> and because of the symmetry of the difficulty change, they would have to undo it by the exact same amount before they could do it again.  so it would really just shift difficulty forward or backward in time by about an hour.  no big deal
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1025 2013-01-19 21:15:44 <sipa> ok, what did i miss the past 20 hours?
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1029 2013-01-19 21:33:20 <Luke-Jr> sipa: Eligius found 4 blocks?
1030 2013-01-19 21:33:21 <Luke-Jr> :P
1031 2013-01-19 21:34:00 <sipa> \o/
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1036 2013-01-19 21:58:33 <Goonie> what does it take to be promoted to "trusted user" (with edit permission) on the bitcoin.it wiki?
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1044 2013-01-19 22:14:54 <Luke-Jr> Goonie: see the login page - 0.05 BTC fee
1045 2013-01-19 22:15:08 <Luke-Jr> Goonie: just to deter spam
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1052 2013-01-19 22:29:32 <Goonie> luke: thanks - interesting idea
1053 2013-01-19 22:31:10 <Goonie> (they should add a qr code and code the 0.05 BTC into the url)
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