1 2013-01-21 00:01:08 jrmithdobbs has joined
2 2013-01-21 00:01:24 jrmithdobbs has quit (Client Quit)
3 2013-01-21 00:02:57 jrmithdobbs has joined
4 2013-01-21 00:04:26 t7 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
5 2013-01-21 00:09:12 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
6 2013-01-21 00:09:13 LargoG has joined
7 2013-01-21 00:12:09 MrTiggr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
8 2013-01-21 00:12:34 MrTiggr has joined
9 2013-01-21 00:13:55 jrmithdobbs has quit (Quit: quit)
10 2013-01-21 00:16:36 jrmithdobbs has joined
11 2013-01-21 00:18:48 MobGod has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
12 2013-01-21 00:19:47 <etotheipi_> I can't remember: are alternate hashtypes standard? have they been tested? I will actually update the wiki this time with the answer so I don't have to keep asking once every 4 months
13 2013-01-21 00:19:57 <Guest97407> so, my understanding is that one way transactions are malleable is for someone to modify their signatures, and the other way was to add stuff to the beginning of the scriptSig, followed by an OP_CODESEPARATOR, anything I missed?
14 2013-01-21 00:20:51 <sipa> etotheipi_: they are standard, afaik
15 2013-01-21 00:20:57 <sipa> tested, not sure
16 2013-01-21 00:21:25 <sipa> Guest97407: adding stuff to the scriptSig, and OP_DROP'ing it is also possible
17 2013-01-21 00:21:42 <sipa> Guest97407: and there are some possibilities to modify the serialized signature itself
18 2013-01-21 00:21:49 MobGod has joined
19 2013-01-21 00:21:57 <sipa> as openssl allows signatures that do no strictly follow DER
20 2013-01-21 00:22:01 MobGod has quit (Changing host)
21 2013-01-21 00:22:01 MobGod has joined
22 2013-01-21 00:22:01 MobGod has quit (Changing host)
23 2013-01-21 00:22:01 MobGod has joined
24 2013-01-21 00:22:23 <CodeShark> a cannonical encoding should be enforced at some point
25 2013-01-21 00:22:30 <sipa> working on that :)
26 2013-01-21 00:23:16 <sipa> Guest97407: also, there's an inherent malleability in ECDSA (the sign for 's' in the signature can be swapped without harm)
27 2013-01-21 00:23:43 <Guest97407> yeah, that's the signature stuff I knew about
28 2013-01-21 00:24:13 <Guest97407> huh, so the CheckSig operates on the txprev scriptSig stack, rather than the scriptSig itself?
29 2013-01-21 00:24:22 <Guest97407> (assuming SIGHASH_ALL)
30 2013-01-21 00:24:57 Guest97407 is now known as petertodd
31 2013-01-21 00:25:09 <CodeShark> the checksig operates on the transaction with the input scripts removed
32 2013-01-21 00:25:10 rdymac has joined
33 2013-01-21 00:25:51 <CodeShark> where's etotheipi's graphic? :)
34 2013-01-21 00:25:54 <petertodd> ah, ok, which means that putting data in the scriptSig is risky
35 2013-01-21 00:26:02 <petertodd> lol, I'm looking at it :)
36 2013-01-21 00:27:29 <CodeShark> here it is: https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png :)
37 2013-01-21 00:28:56 <petertodd> thanks, I think I get it now, it's too bad, means you'll never be able to securely give someone a chain of unconfirmed transactions, as any malicious miner could break the chain part-way through
38 2013-01-21 00:30:20 <CodeShark> how?
39 2013-01-21 00:30:32 <sipa> we've been trying to make known forms of malleability non-standard
40 2013-01-21 00:30:52 <CodeShark> oh, change the signature
41 2013-01-21 00:30:54 <CodeShark> yeah :)
42 2013-01-21 00:30:58 <sipa> not change
43 2013-01-21 00:31:16 <CodeShark> ?
44 2013-01-21 00:31:17 <petertodd> and even if the signatures are a network rule, you can still add data to the scriptSig without invalidating the signature
45 2013-01-21 00:31:36 <sipa> petertodd: unless scriptSigs with non-data-push operators are illegal
46 2013-01-21 00:31:55 <etotheipi_> I guess the idea is that you submit 3 chained tx, each one depending on the previous: a malicious miner mines a valid variant of the second one, which then makes the third one invalid
47 2013-01-21 00:31:56 <sipa> and no remaining unused stack elements are allowed
48 2013-01-21 00:31:56 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, you'd need two network rule changes basically
49 2013-01-21 00:32:33 <sipa> indeed
50 2013-01-21 00:32:46 <etotheipi_> petertodd: is that what you're suggesting? (I don't know why I said 3, any chain would be vulnerable)
51 2013-01-21 00:33:05 <petertodd> so that's why jgarzik's "smalldata" proposal works with CHECKMULTISIG rather than P2SH?
52 2013-01-21 00:33:51 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
53 2013-01-21 00:34:20 <petertodd> etothepi: exactly
54 2013-01-21 00:34:40 <sipa> petertodd: no, it's because he wants to be able to recognize particular data elements by just watching for transactions in the chain
55 2013-01-21 00:34:44 <petertodd> etothepi: for instance chains of tx's could be used to incentivise mining
56 2013-01-21 00:35:13 <petertodd> sipa: but that'd work just as well in the scriptSig, if the scriptSig was not modifiable
57 2013-01-21 00:35:45 jrmithdobbs has quit (Quit: quit)
58 2013-01-21 00:36:13 <etotheipi_> petertodd: I was thinking about this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=25786.0
59 2013-01-21 00:36:28 <etotheipi_> the idea is to create a tx to someone else, and then another one from them right back to you
60 2013-01-21 00:36:44 <etotheipi_> you don't broadcast the first one to them until they sign the one that returns the money to you
61 2013-01-21 00:37:01 <sipa> petertodd: well i dislike the idea of using the blockchain as a communication channel anyway
62 2013-01-21 00:37:19 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
63 2013-01-21 00:37:24 <etotheipi_> theoretically, they could sign the one returning the money to you, and then mine a variant of the first tx thus making the return transaction invalid
64 2013-01-21 00:37:24 <sipa> petertodd: and a payment protocol that connects the two parties that try to negotiate is imho much better
65 2013-01-21 00:37:47 <petertodd> etotheipi: nice, good mechanism
66 2013-01-21 00:38:11 <petertodd> sipa: for most things sure, but it doesn't work for everything
67 2013-01-21 00:39:20 <petertodd> sipa: speaking of, my understanding is that a "contract output" system where an output is tied the hash of some data is secure if it works by having a base key, and then using ECDSA multiplication by the hash right?
68 2013-01-21 00:39:25 <etotheipi_> sipa: is my thinking right, there? does that mean that the "Instant TX for established business relationships" idea is actually quite risky for untrusted parties?
69 2013-01-21 00:39:41 <etotheipi_> ("quite risky" is relative, of course)
70 2013-01-21 00:40:07 <sipa> too tired to think about those now
71 2013-01-21 00:40:10 <petertodd> etothepi: re: established, having good proof the other side lied can be a pretty good mechanism
72 2013-01-21 00:40:21 sgornick has joined
73 2013-01-21 00:40:43 <etotheipi_> petertodd: I'm thinking more about semi-anonymous identities who transact regularly
74 2013-01-21 00:41:00 <sipa> not sure how "established business" and "untrusted" can be combined?
75 2013-01-21 00:41:29 <petertodd> etothepi: did you see my fidelity bonds stuff?
76 2013-01-21 00:41:40 jrmithdobbs has joined
77 2013-01-21 00:41:46 <etotheipi_> sure -- you start doing regular transactions with some guy in malaysia, who is sending you regular monthly shipments and you are sending him money
78 2013-01-21 00:41:53 <gmaxwell> sipa: etotheipi_ refers to the case where 'trust' is purely limited to past performance. ... pretty lossy metric of trust unless each trade is highly profitble.
79 2013-01-21 00:42:01 <jgarzik> Screw Fidelity. Their commissions are outrageously expensive.
80 2013-01-21 00:42:09 <petertodd> jgarzik: lol
81 2013-01-21 00:42:11 <sipa> ?
82 2013-01-21 00:42:26 <sipa> gmaxwell: oh, not something i'd considered an established business relationship :)
83 2013-01-21 00:42:27 <petertodd> trust limited to past performance means you'll get screwed when the other side retires
84 2013-01-21 00:42:32 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
85 2013-01-21 00:42:40 <CodeShark> prisoner's dilemma?
86 2013-01-21 00:42:58 <CodeShark> IPD?
87 2013-01-21 00:43:01 jrmithdobbs has quit (Client Quit)
88 2013-01-21 00:43:02 <gmaxwell> petertodd: or not even: if the trades are very fair then it makes it 'cheap' to establish history.
89 2013-01-21 00:43:25 <etotheipi_> so he says "your account is dry, why don't we refill with $50k"... so you create the $50k tx to him and make him sign a return $50k tx
90 2013-01-21 00:43:39 <etotheipi_> he mines a variant of the first, and then he disappears
91 2013-01-21 00:43:39 <petertodd> gmaxwell: good point... I here that's happened a lot on btc-otc
92 2013-01-21 00:43:51 <gmaxwell> petertodd: e.g. you just make 10 trades that cost you a small amount each and then do one bi ripoff... then get a new identity.
93 2013-01-21 00:43:54 <gmaxwell> er big
94 2013-01-21 00:44:00 <gmaxwell> I dunno about a lot, but it's certantly happened.
95 2013-01-21 00:44:18 <gmaxwell> (arguably pirate was doing that- for an obvious example)
96 2013-01-21 00:44:53 <petertodd> I wound up actually being part of the reputation establishment side of one such scam, standard paypal scammer, and I was one of the first guys he ever did business, I didn't lose anything...
97 2013-01-21 00:45:15 <gmaxwell> There is a tension here: if identity is cheap, people will just mine them and burn them... if identity is expensive people will just not trade in that forum and find one where the barrier doesn't exist.
98 2013-01-21 00:45:41 jrmithdobbs has joined
99 2013-01-21 00:45:41 <petertodd> What we need is a way to stab someone in the eye over the internet.
100 2013-01-21 00:45:47 <CodeShark> lol
101 2013-01-21 00:45:59 <sipa> kill -SIGECUTE
102 2013-01-21 00:47:39 <gmaxwell> petertodd: one of the key points is that your fidelity bonds are transferable, so there is value in keeping one clean and selling it, so long as a market exists for them... that should remove some of the shutdown risk.
103 2013-01-21 00:48:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: exactly, I'm actually working on fleshing out the details of how that transfer will work
104 2013-01-21 00:48:32 <CodeShark> it could work if there were intermediary parties that could establish identity outside the p2p network
105 2013-01-21 00:48:44 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I'd assume one way to do that would be to just be able to perform a transaction which inactivates the bond for some time. So you just get your balance to zero, inactivate the bond, then sell it.
106 2013-01-21 00:48:45 <petertodd> ecc root key * hash of the contract seems reasonable, and avoids <contract hash> OP_DROP
107 2013-01-21 00:49:23 <petertodd> petertodd: absolutely, move the bond to a null contract address and wait until the expiry date for the funds rolls over
108 2013-01-21 00:49:43 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
109 2013-01-21 00:49:51 <petertodd> the really ugly problem is people, even the bond owner, creating a fraud proof, then publishing it after the sale
110 2013-01-21 00:50:02 <gmaxwell> petertodd: (also means you need to figure out how you will have chaum tokens time out)
111 2013-01-21 00:50:04 <petertodd> proof publishing simply has to be provably public, with a timestamp
112 2013-01-21 00:50:16 <jgarzik> Ditto... when bitcoin was a lot smaller, I would occasionally do OTC paypal transactions. Never got scammed (there was a way to do it securely, before PP clamped down) but I wound up on the reputation-building side of the bitcoin-otc graph of a scammer or two.
113 2013-01-21 00:50:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: that's easy: the associated pubkey keys are rotated
114 2013-01-21 00:50:26 <CodeShark> so the moral of the story is that there's no such thing as a technology that will prevent people from screwing each other? :p
115 2013-01-21 00:50:26 <gmaxwell> petertodd: if the balance must be zero to shut down, and the shutdown window is long enough, then that should be enough.
116 2013-01-21 00:51:05 DamascusVG has quit (Quit: I Quit - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p97zsQ51Rw)
117 2013-01-21 00:51:07 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
118 2013-01-21 00:51:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: the expiry time's will force the balance to zero
119 2013-01-21 00:51:31 <gmaxwell> petertodd: e.g. you just stop issuing new chaum tokens, wait until they all timeout.. then your balance will be zero. Then you can shutdown. The buyer waits some holding period for time to discover fraud... and fraud notices after that period are ignored.
120 2013-01-21 00:51:45 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: do you remember if other hashtypes are standard and usable?
121 2013-01-21 00:52:08 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: AFAIR they are.
122 2013-01-21 00:52:30 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: who's having an afair?
123 2013-01-21 00:52:31 <petertodd> gmaxwell: right, but fraud notices are just data, publishing is itself a sybill problem, so you want to be able to act if you find a proof way after the fact, for instance you might want to know if a sale of a bond created last year was in fact valid
124 2013-01-21 00:53:11 <petertodd> gmaxwell: the bond is only valid if you have access to every contract going back in time, if that isn't true
125 2013-01-21 00:53:17 <petertodd> then we need a blockchain...
126 2013-01-21 00:53:25 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I suppose you'd pay the fraud notice to the bond... and it's only valid if it makes it into the blockchain.
127 2013-01-21 00:53:39 <gmaxwell> or something like that.
128 2013-01-21 00:53:55 <gmaxwell> Having to pay txn fees to publish fraud kinda sucks.
129 2013-01-21 00:54:20 <gmaxwell> and having the bond holder able to erase the fraud from the utxo set kinda sucks. so hm.. perhaps not a good idea.
130 2013-01-21 00:54:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, I was thinking if you can get the fraud proofs small enough you'd just pay some miner a fee and put them onto the bitcoin blockchain, but it's kinda ugly, it'd only work for my trustbits banking stuff, and only with small chaum tokens (rsa would be bad)
131 2013-01-21 00:54:46 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I think you want small chaum tokens for many reasons in any case.
132 2013-01-21 00:55:18 Hashdog has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
133 2013-01-21 00:55:33 <MobGod> gmaxwell quick question this page right here http://preev.com if i wanted to do something like that where can i find the info
134 2013-01-21 00:55:41 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm gonna talk to a cryptographer coworker of mine tomorrow about that... ideal would be some ECC blinding thing, so the value can be embedded in the key (root * hash(value + expiry))
135 2013-01-21 00:56:27 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I don't think embedding the rootkey in the value is important in any case. Just getting a list of values from the server is fine, esp if their keys are small.
136 2013-01-21 00:56:39 zooko has joined
137 2013-01-21 00:56:45 <gmaxwell> After all- you have to be able to reach it to trade and it could publish its keylist into the far future.
138 2013-01-21 00:57:26 <petertodd> well sure, one key for every bit works, and the token values are powers of two, but root*value leads to a really tightly encoded keylist in the contract, anyway, even RSA would work
139 2013-01-21 00:57:46 <gmaxwell> MobGod: they are getting data from the mtgox api it seems to say. There is no official exchange rate and can't be one. You can just estimate the rate based on recent trades and/or the orderbook at some exchange or another.
140 2013-01-21 00:58:12 jimmyy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
141 2013-01-21 00:58:21 <MobGod> gmaxwell what api are they using
142 2013-01-21 00:58:37 <MobGod> like do you have a place i can look to see how to do this "website"
143 2013-01-21 00:59:38 <gmaxwell> MobGod: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=mtgox+api&l=1
144 2013-01-21 00:59:54 <petertodd> gmaxwell: another idea I had was the bond spend tx can be done with SIGHASH_NONE and an empty scriptPubKey; ultimately miners decide order, so any tx that is trivilally spendable is in fact a miners fee, but doing it that way gives everyone an incentive to try to grab the tx even if not all miners are on board
145 2013-01-21 00:59:55 <MobGod> gmaxwell lol
146 2013-01-21 01:00:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: also makes for a mechanism to essentially sign for a certain amount of miner subsidy with SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY and such an output
147 2013-01-21 01:01:05 <MobGod> gmaxwell i know that part but what one would i use for a page like that the http api or the other
148 2013-01-21 01:01:48 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I feel like eventually we'll need a soft-forking change for 'tearable signatures' e.g. signatures which are not in the chain, but are only validated until they are burried by N blocks and forgotten. But I think we don't understand the applications well enough yet to reason about it.
149 2013-01-21 01:01:50 <MobGod> or is that page more like a streaming web socket?
150 2013-01-21 01:02:00 <CodeShark> look at the source, dude
151 2013-01-21 01:02:22 <gmaxwell> petertodd: in that case you could have a txout which is spendable by providing a proof of cheating. But then eventually the network forgets the proof. Then the bond is proven by its existance in the utxo set.
152 2013-01-21 01:03:20 <petertodd> gmaxwell: that'd be a really nice mechanism, exactly what I'm trying to hack in after the fact
153 2013-01-21 01:03:21 sgornick has joined
154 2013-01-21 01:03:33 <MobGod> CodeSharkwas just asking for the api page what one should i be reading thats all
155 2013-01-21 01:03:41 <CodeShark> MobGod: type the command "curl https://mtgox.com/api/0/data/ticker.php" at the command line
156 2013-01-21 01:03:48 <gmaxwell> petertodd: it's a soft-fork possible change. ... but I think we need systems like yours first so we can understand _exactly_ how it should work.
157 2013-01-21 01:03:50 <CodeShark> the data is right there
158 2013-01-21 01:03:54 <petertodd> gmaxwell: it'll be awhile before people become confident about how many blocks back really is secure
159 2013-01-21 01:04:04 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I think we must have something like that if we're ever to have lamport coins.
160 2013-01-21 01:05:02 <MobGod> CodeSharkdid you get that msg
161 2013-01-21 01:05:13 <petertodd> gmaxwell: right, so the lamport pubkey gets buried, such that it's too expensive to rewrite the chain to change it?
162 2013-01-21 01:06:10 <gmaxwell> petertodd: right. Well signature. We can make the pubkey small by hashing it! So all the size is in the signature.
163 2013-01-21 01:06:46 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'll have to think a bit more about exactly how lamport works... :)
164 2013-01-21 01:06:54 <gmaxwell> But it means a worst case signature size of 64k for 512 bit security - rather insane. But not so bad if it's automatically torn deep in the chain.
165 2013-01-21 01:07:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: if we need lamport, we'll be very, very glad for moores law... even just the data transmission would be crazy
166 2013-01-21 01:07:41 <gmaxwell> petertodd: your lamport pubkey is just a list of H(Xn) for hash_bits n. So just hash those up (or a hash tree) and you have a compressed pubkey. The signature gets the real pubkey values.
167 2013-01-21 01:08:09 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well lamport is stupid stupid fast so it's just a data size issue. And so long as we keep the number of txn in the chain limited, it's no big deal.
168 2013-01-21 01:08:15 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ah I see, merkle trees were invented for that right?
169 2013-01-21 01:08:53 <gmaxwell> Well, merkle trees applied to lamport are usually used to have sequentially reusable pubkeys.
170 2013-01-21 01:09:26 <gmaxwell> E.g. you can generate N lamport keys, arrange them in a merkle tree.. then sign N times without rotating the key, just by proving you signed with the Nth key in the tree.
171 2013-01-21 01:09:27 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, so you can specify in advance some enormous number of keys you can sign ultimately, although true, not needed for bitcoin
172 2013-01-21 01:09:32 <gmaxwell> Exactly.
173 2013-01-21 01:10:30 <gmaxwell> Hash trees also allow pubkey compression when the pubkey is in the signature. The signature provides half the Xn values, if you arrange the hash tree right you an avoid sending some of the H(Xn) values and instead just send a common root.
174 2013-01-21 01:10:57 <petertodd> ah, cool
175 2013-01-21 01:11:35 <gmaxwell> (I may have been the first person to note that, IIRC zooko didn't recall any lit on it, and he'd studied lamport a fair bit)
176 2013-01-21 01:12:09 <gmaxwell> But the compression isn't much in any case.
177 2013-01-21 01:12:18 <petertodd> Reminds me, so for OpenTimestamps I came up with this incrementally buildable merkle tree structure, where you essentially build up increasingly larger perfect (2^n) merkle trees, and then take the tips of the trees in the set and hash that in a deterministic way to get the final hash enclosing everything. So, who's algorithm did I re-invent? :P
178 2013-01-21 01:12:50 <gmaxwell> petertodd: did you invent a merkle skiplist?
179 2013-01-21 01:13:22 <gmaxwell> There are a bunch of hash authenticated datastructures that no one has bothered documenting which basically say "take structure X, add hashes and now it's secure" :P
180 2013-01-21 01:14:15 <petertodd> gmaxwell: (checking) that's pretty close, both solve the same problem ultimately
181 2013-01-21 01:14:25 <petertodd> lol, I could believe that...
182 2013-01-21 01:14:29 <gmaxwell> E.g. take a min-heap, add hashes, and now you can have people track the minimum value with only log(n) data/operations/storage per update. :P
183 2013-01-21 01:14:47 <gmaxwell> yet I've never seen anyone describe a merkle min-heap before.
184 2013-01-21 01:15:36 <petertodd> gmaxwell: haha, that's sounding really close to a totally impractical idea I had too...
185 2013-01-21 01:16:22 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
186 2013-01-21 01:16:48 <petertodd> gmaxwell: There's probably so many of these algorithms that just haven't had an application yet.
187 2013-01-21 01:17:11 reizuki__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
188 2013-01-21 01:18:03 <gmaxwell> There are even a lot with applications.. and just no implementations! it makes me sad. For example there are a ton of ways described to do varrious kinds of secure sealed bid auctions... but no pratical implementations, even though OTC users could use them for bidding out things like loan rates.
189 2013-01-21 01:18:22 <petertodd> brb
190 2013-01-21 01:18:51 <gmaxwell> Or secure secret ballot electionsâ which we ought to be using for things like bitcoin foundation elected seats. Lots of stuff published on it, but nowhere I an just go download "electiond".
191 2013-01-21 01:19:02 <CodeShark> gmaxqwll, why don't you be the one to implement them? :)
192 2013-01-21 01:19:07 <CodeShark> *gmaxwell
193 2013-01-21 01:19:12 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: because I have finite time, alas.
194 2013-01-21 01:19:35 <gmaxwell> (and I'm solving other stupidly unsolved problems,â royalty free multimedia formats)
195 2013-01-21 01:20:28 <CodeShark> solving it from what angle?
196 2013-01-21 01:21:06 <gmaxwell> Part of this is all due to screwed up incentives in academia: You are rewarded for publishing things with a lot of effort spent on highly abstract mathmatics, only some of which is actually important... and not at all rewarded for doing the boring engineering work of producing a real usable implementation.
197 2013-01-21 01:21:11 <CodeShark> developing codecs, you mean?
198 2013-01-21 01:21:15 <gmaxwell> Yes.
199 2013-01-21 01:21:29 <gmaxwell> So you have all these super smart people doing neat work.. but not actually producing any output that matters.
200 2013-01-21 01:22:31 <CodeShark> real usable implementations actually pay more in the real world...but then you have to get out of the ivory towers and sell that shit
201 2013-01-21 01:22:51 <Scrat> hey gmaxwell can a decent video codec be developed with all the H264 patents lurking around?
202 2013-01-21 01:23:02 <zooko> gmaxwell: I love this topic, but I must crash, and then prepare a talk about Tahoe-LAFS for the "Internet Crypto Workshop" tomorrow. âº
203 2013-01-21 01:23:37 <jgarzik> I always thought that was the purpose of academics: to produce the theoretical work that coders can then steal
204 2013-01-21 01:23:43 <gmaxwell> Scrat: sure. The h264 patents themselves are actually not terribly concerningâ for something which isn't h264â in fact.
205 2013-01-21 01:23:43 <CodeShark> :)
206 2013-01-21 01:23:45 <jgarzik> symbiotic relationship
207 2013-01-21 01:23:52 <zooko> gmaxwell: I'd like to explore ways to incentivize the kind of dev that I want.
208 2013-01-21 01:24:02 <zooko> Actually "incentivize" is the wrong word -- it sounds like a psychology issue.
209 2013-01-21 01:24:09 <zooko> Sounds like you need to make people want it more.
210 2013-01-21 01:24:15 <zooko> I think the issue is "allocation of resources".
211 2013-01-21 01:24:19 <jgarzik> zooko: implement a Minecraft interface, and let 14 year-olds do the work
212 2013-01-21 01:24:28 <zooko> Haha!
213 2013-01-21 01:24:32 <zooko> Okay, catch you folks later...
214 2013-01-21 01:24:40 zooko has quit (Quit: Zzz...)
215 2013-01-21 01:25:34 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I think Bitcoin Foundation will be like all other foundations... board seats are given to big contributors, for better or worse
216 2013-01-21 01:25:41 <petertodd> what you need is more people with less day jobs :P
217 2013-01-21 01:25:41 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: they often produce theortical work which is so far abstracted that the process of stealing is almost as high as inventing... in some areas some work basically borderes on fraudâ e.g. in dsp papers its common to discovered that they had a whole pile of magic factors to get good results and if you test on anything outside of their training set their results no longer hold.
218 2013-01-21 01:25:54 <petertodd> I'm actually really lucky that I have 20% time, although, I take a 20% salary cut...
219 2013-01-21 01:26:30 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: IIRC the structure was that there were some number of member seats which would be elected by the individual members. I could be totally mistaken on that.
220 2013-01-21 01:26:54 <jgarzik> perhaps but that will never fly long tmer
221 2013-01-21 01:26:56 <jgarzik> *term
222 2013-01-21 01:27:20 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: well one or two troll members is hardly the end of the world.
223 2013-01-21 01:27:33 <jgarzik> industry foundations follow their sponsors. that's just the way of the world.
224 2013-01-21 01:27:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: timestamping is an interesting field along those lines... lots of really abstract and solid theory, but the commercial stuff at best might use a merkle tree
225 2013-01-21 01:28:30 <CodeShark> it would be hard to find a governing body in the world that doesn't have its fair share of troll members
226 2013-01-21 01:28:42 <CodeShark> in fact, I'd say you're lucky if you only get one or two :p
227 2013-01-21 01:29:02 jimmyy has joined
228 2013-01-21 01:29:13 <petertodd> I've heard telecom has that problem so badly the resulting standards are basically designed to be as complex as possible only so everyone's patents get involved...
229 2013-01-21 01:29:17 sgornick has joined
230 2013-01-21 01:29:21 <Scrat> gmaxwell: lol. I was just reading Dark Shikari's post on WebM and saw your name
231 2013-01-21 01:29:27 <Scrat> gmaxwell: what are you working on?
232 2013-01-21 01:30:18 <gmaxwell> petertodd: thats the case for ITU/MPEG multimedia patents, at least. See the essay I wrote on the subject: http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/theora/2010-April/003769.html
233 2013-01-21 01:31:12 <gmaxwell> petertodd: internet stuff in general is much better. Both the IETF and W3C have done a good job (in very different ways) of disincentivizing royalty bearing capture.
234 2013-01-21 01:32:05 <petertodd> gmaxwell: interesting, of course, this also must mean the multimedia stuff is worse off technically for trying to cram so many patents into it
235 2013-01-21 01:32:55 <gmaxwell> petertodd: sometimes, yesâ though usually just complexity wise. You can usually choose to _not_ use a feature. They make the cram stuff optional e.g. the decoder must still implement it, so must have the patent license... but the encoder can choose not to use it.
236 2013-01-21 01:33:16 <petertodd> reminds me, we should be careful to make sure the bitcoin-dev irc logs as well as the bitcointalk discussions are preserved in case they are needed for patent litigation...
237 2013-01-21 01:33:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ah, good point there, although that's still a nasty cost for hardware decoders
238 2013-01-21 01:33:46 <gmaxwell> There are quite a few things like that in e.g. h264 and AMR-WB. (though it's hard to tell what was just a mistake vs what was really inserted for patent soup reasons)
239 2013-01-21 01:34:27 <petertodd> yeah, designers of standards aren't perfect, especially when the standards get mostly finished before the first ASIC implementing them gets made
240 2013-01-21 01:34:50 <gmaxwell> petertodd: sometimes, e.g. h264 the decoders still don't bother to implement it. I'm not actually sure if I've ever seen a h264 decoder which actually implemented the full specification. FFmpeg certantly doesn't. In theory a non-conformant implementation invalidates your patent license, but since everyone in the pool is getting paid, I guess no one cares if you don't implement a defacto-optional feature.
241 2013-01-21 01:35:57 Cory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
242 2013-01-21 01:35:58 <petertodd> gmaxwell: that could make for a nasty tactic: join the pool and start suing the non-conformant implementations, sure you'd lose, but it might be worth some companies while
243 2013-01-21 01:36:44 <CodeShark> if you have deep enough pockets you can afford to do that even if you'd lose - because by then your opponents are already broke
244 2013-01-21 01:36:49 Cory has joined
245 2013-01-21 01:36:57 <gmaxwell> petertodd: hush before someone hears you. Already we have motorola who's strategy was to just not join the pool and sue people. (nothing can force you to join the pool)
246 2013-01-21 01:37:12 <gmaxwell> s/people/microsoft/ :P
247 2013-01-21 01:38:39 <petertodd> gmaxwell: lovely... heh, my job is an analog electronics designer at a startup, and when our new patent lawyer did his first company-wide presentation about patents I would up saying "look guys, don't go egg his house" almost totally seriously...
248 2013-01-21 01:38:49 * jgarzik wishes for a loser-pays system
249 2013-01-21 01:38:54 <petertodd> *wound up
250 2013-01-21 01:39:16 <petertodd> most places are loser-pays if I'm not mistaken
251 2013-01-21 01:39:52 <CodeShark> loser-pays if winner can manage to survive the litigation process without having serious cash flow problems
252 2013-01-21 01:39:54 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I dunno there... loser-pays would further disincentive the actual purpose of patents... and also maximize the who can spend the most on lawyers auction aspects of it.
253 2013-01-21 01:40:01 <petertodd> although they find they need special rules to handle asymetric litigants, and you get weirdness where a large company will actually pay the legal fees of small litigants for them just to make sure the issue gets resolved soon
254 2013-01-21 01:40:45 <gmaxwell> "Hello small inventer, I will happily violate your patents, and if you sue me I'll spend a billion dollars on my defense, making your expected value on suing me negative even if you're very likely to win. Have a nice day."
255 2013-01-21 01:40:53 <petertodd> exactly
256 2013-01-21 01:41:08 <gmaxwell> "so wouldn't you rather sell me your patent for 1% of it's fair value?"
257 2013-01-21 01:41:54 <petertodd> even requiring both sides to spend the same on their legal teams doesn't work, because the efficiency of the legal teams is often hugely disproportionate, not to mention trying to measure "spend"
258 2013-01-21 01:42:32 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, worse, it favors companies who hire lawyers and spend all their time suing people rather than who hire engineers. :(
259 2013-01-21 01:43:20 <petertodd> gmaxwell: also, it gives engineers an incentive to become lawyers, every lawyer where I work has an engineering degree
260 2013-01-21 01:43:47 <gmaxwell> petertodd: Patent attornies are required[1] to have an engineering degree in the US.
261 2013-01-21 01:44:14 <gmaxwell> [1] there is a loophole, which is how my SO is a licensed patent attorney without an engineering degree.
262 2013-01-21 01:44:29 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm in Canada, although our lawyer also did a masters and phd in engineering too, neither required
263 2013-01-21 01:44:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: tsk... so you are in bed with the dark side
264 2013-01-21 01:45:04 <gmaxwell> petertodd: My SO is chairman of the board for the Wikimedia foundation, and got patent licensed specifically to help with creating RF codecs.
265 2013-01-21 01:45:17 <gmaxwell> So I think not. :P
266 2013-01-21 01:45:35 <petertodd> ha, alright, I'll take that back
267 2013-01-21 01:46:00 <petertodd> (not that I should talk, I'm trying to get a patent to my name at work...)
268 2013-01-21 01:46:17 <gmaxwell> petertodd: tisk tisk. Get your work to adopt something like the twitter promise.
269 2013-01-21 01:46:27 <gmaxwell> (assuming it's a patent that would read on software systems)
270 2013-01-21 01:46:36 <gmaxwell> The twitter promise is kinda limited but better than nothing.
271 2013-01-21 01:46:45 <petertodd> gmaxwell: nah, we're in geophysics/mineral exploration
272 2013-01-21 01:47:01 <gmaxwell> http://blog.twitter.com/2012/04/introducing-innovators-patent-agreement.html
273 2013-01-21 01:47:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: it's really unlikely we'll ever do a software patent
274 2013-01-21 01:47:19 <gmaxwell> ah I take less issue on non-software patents: the dynamics of non-software invention tend to make them far less harmful.
275 2013-01-21 01:47:34 <petertodd> gmaxwell: that's twitter agreement is impressive
276 2013-01-21 01:47:52 DamascusVG has joined
277 2013-01-21 01:47:53 DamascusVG has quit (Changing host)
278 2013-01-21 01:47:53 DamascusVG has joined
279 2013-01-21 01:48:15 <petertodd> gmaxwell: less harmful... but I think it really says something how solidly against patents nearly all my engineering co-workers are, and myself I just keep on finding BS patents in my field
280 2013-01-21 01:48:20 <gmaxwell> There are a bunch of holes in itâ starting with the fact that any such agreement would be voided by a bankruptcy court... but it's a start.
281 2013-01-21 01:48:54 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I wonder if their lawyers had to put that one in... shielding assets from bankruptcy can get you in a lot of trouble
282 2013-01-21 01:48:55 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, patents have low quality. In the US more than half the patent claims are invalidated on their interaction with an actual court.
283 2013-01-21 01:49:24 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
284 2013-01-21 01:50:09 <gmaxwell> petertodd: not something explicitly in it, it's the fact that they omitted the protection and the #1 way trolls get patents is via bankruptcy. (trolls are about the only parties that bid on patents in bankruptcy)
285 2013-01-21 01:50:17 <petertodd> lovely, see, I think there needs to be the same system for patents as they do in amateur motor sport racing: you name a price for your patent, and anyone can pay that price and have it immediately invalidated, onthe other hand, if anyone successfully gets your patent invalidated through litigation, they are guaranteed that price as a reward + reasonable lawyer fees
286 2013-01-21 01:50:37 <gmaxwell> Many lawyers don't even realize that those kinds of agreements are voided in bankruptcy.
287 2013-01-21 01:50:39 Hasimir has quit (Quit: Connection reset by beer.)
288 2013-01-21 01:51:09 <gmaxwell> petertodd: Take that idea and add one more level: you pay property taxes on the stated value, and you get something that I've proposed before and am rather fond of.
289 2013-01-21 01:51:32 jrmithdobbs has quit (Quit: quit)
290 2013-01-21 01:51:34 <gmaxwell> (well property taxes on the stated value minus your reported royalities)
291 2013-01-21 01:51:46 <petertodd> Oh, yes, good point re: property taxes. Apply that to copyright while you're at it, maybe just after 50 years.
292 2013-01-21 01:52:02 Hasimir has joined
293 2013-01-21 01:52:03 b4epoche has joined
294 2013-01-21 01:52:06 <petertodd> (steamboat willie is never going to go out of copyright...)
295 2013-01-21 01:52:35 <gmaxwell> Yea, unfortunately the berne convention very explicitly prohibits signing nations to charge any fee to retain a copyright. :(
296 2013-01-21 01:52:50 <CodeShark> and practically nobody has even heard of Iwerks
297 2013-01-21 01:52:51 <gmaxwell> It's a non-starter until that treaty is repealed or replaced.
298 2013-01-21 01:52:52 <CodeShark> lol
299 2013-01-21 01:53:16 <CodeShark> Disney was by far the better litigator
300 2013-01-21 01:53:31 <gmaxwell> (patents, however, aren't subject to the same restrictionâ and in the US you do pay to keep a patent around... but it's not that much and not proportional to the value of a patent)
301 2013-01-21 01:54:48 <petertodd> Sigh, didn't know that about Berne... granted, what if the fee is just to extend the life further than the minimum life? (Berne is 50 years I thought)
302 2013-01-21 01:54:59 jrmithdobbs has joined
303 2013-01-21 01:55:46 <CodeShark> petertodd: steamboat willie might never go out of copyright in principle - but in practice, anyone can easily obtain that cartoon for free nowadays
304 2013-01-21 01:56:33 <petertodd> They can't however get away with using the IP in their own project - copyright invalidation is a lot more than just making a copy.
305 2013-01-21 01:56:38 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, I dunno, perhaps that would work if it went above and beyond the berne minimum. (Berne is life plus 50 years, not 50 years)
306 2013-01-21 01:57:05 <petertodd> gmaxwell: so how does berne work with corporate owned copyrights?
307 2013-01-21 01:57:25 <petertodd> ...and further the distiction between owned, and coprorate created
308 2013-01-21 01:57:47 <CodeShark> there should be a clear distinction between copyrights and trademarks - I'm all for Disney being able to stop others from pretending to be Disney and selling products under the Disney name - it's quite another to provide access to classic works while still giving the original authors credit
309 2013-01-21 01:57:50 lahker has joined
310 2013-01-21 01:58:28 <CodeShark> mickey mouse can still remain a Disney Company trademark - I don't have a problem with that
311 2013-01-21 01:58:34 <CodeShark> but steamboat willie should be public domain
312 2013-01-21 01:59:02 <petertodd> CodeShark: the law is already plenty clear about that. You can easily hold a trademark on something that is public domain.
313 2013-01-21 01:59:35 <gmaxwell> petertodd: Those works still have authors, and for a collaborative/jointly work the longest living author's copyright would still apply as far as berne goes.
314 2013-01-21 02:00:30 <CodeShark> and Iwerks created mickey mouse, not Walt :p
315 2013-01-21 02:00:54 <gmaxwell> God knows someone may eventually try to argue that corporate personhoold makes copyright perpetual under berne goes, ... I don't think the treaty actually defines with an author is. :(
316 2013-01-21 02:01:20 <petertodd> I can see that happening...
317 2013-01-21 02:03:29 <CodeShark> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/95/Ub-iwerks.jpg
318 2013-01-21 02:03:54 <petertodd> Anyway, there is a really simple argument against long copyrights: present value. If copyright is about incentivising the creation of new work, then the accountants of a company are going to discount the revenue from that work using standard accepted methods, and with a discount rate of 8% even just 50 years in the future is already just %2 of a revenue received this year
319 2013-01-21 02:04:31 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
320 2013-01-21 02:05:34 <petertodd> (it's not quite as convincing an argument if you integrate the revenue properly over the proposed time period...)
321 2013-01-21 02:05:38 <gmaxwell> petertodd: sure, there are many argumentsâ including the fact that most old copyrighted works are currently unavailable at any price. ... but a large amount of old PD works are available to the public at reasonable prices.
322 2013-01-21 02:06:59 <petertodd> gmaxwell: that's a good one too.
323 2013-01-21 02:07:28 toffoo has joined
324 2013-01-21 02:08:26 runeks has quit (Quit: Leaving)
325 2013-01-21 02:11:14 TwilightSparklee has joined
326 2013-01-21 02:15:18 Jamesz has joined
327 2013-01-21 02:18:17 killerstorm_ has joined
328 2013-01-21 02:22:08 <killerstorm_> hi. It would be cool if somebody can send me some testnet3 coins here: mkyBGT1cb3WFbZQ94Wpf5jPtYAuXhmCjLa
329 2013-01-21 02:22:13 <petertodd> unrelated: so, if I have ecc public point R, and I compute P=k*R, with k = some hash of some contract, I can't compute R' so P=k'*R' because that would imply I've calculated R'=k/k' * R, and point division is infeasible right?
330 2013-01-21 02:22:19 <petertodd> killerstorm: sure
331 2013-01-21 02:23:06 <petertodd> killerstorm: you know there is a new testnet faucet?
332 2013-01-21 02:23:26 <killerstorm_> petertodd: Thanks!
333 2013-01-21 02:23:40 <killerstorm_> Nope
334 2013-01-21 02:23:53 <petertodd> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133417.0
335 2013-01-21 02:24:00 <petertodd> http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/
336 2013-01-21 02:25:23 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
337 2013-01-21 02:33:24 TwilightSparkl-1 has joined
338 2013-01-21 02:34:59 TwilightSparklee has quit (Disconnected by services)
339 2013-01-21 02:35:31 TwilightSparkl-1 is now known as TwilightSparklee
340 2013-01-21 02:35:40 TwilightSparklee has quit (Changing host)
341 2013-01-21 02:35:40 TwilightSparklee has joined
342 2013-01-21 02:36:13 TwilightSparklee has quit (Client Quit)
343 2013-01-21 02:36:50 TwilightSparklee has joined
344 2013-01-21 02:57:12 sgornick has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
345 2013-01-21 02:59:43 TwilightSparklee has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
346 2013-01-21 03:08:34 dh___ has joined
347 2013-01-21 03:10:15 Impaler has joined
348 2013-01-21 03:12:20 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
349 2013-01-21 03:12:54 copumpkin has joined
350 2013-01-21 03:16:06 spaz926 is now known as spaz926|away
351 2013-01-21 03:21:09 dh___ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
352 2013-01-21 03:22:52 Ferroh has joined
353 2013-01-21 03:23:51 andytoshi has joined
354 2013-01-21 03:25:45 dh___ has joined
355 2013-01-21 03:27:13 TwilightSparklee has joined
356 2013-01-21 03:28:13 lumberjak has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
357 2013-01-21 03:28:20 lumberjak has joined
358 2013-01-21 03:32:33 FredEE has joined
359 2013-01-21 03:36:05 FredEE has quit (Client Quit)
360 2013-01-21 03:38:00 dh___ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
361 2013-01-21 03:38:06 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
362 2013-01-21 03:40:25 Ferroh has quit (Quit: *poof*)
363 2013-01-21 03:40:59 killerstorm_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
364 2013-01-21 03:45:32 Ferroh has joined
365 2013-01-21 03:51:17 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
366 2013-01-21 03:55:24 fiesh has joined
367 2013-01-21 03:55:39 lumberjak has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
368 2013-01-21 03:55:42 lumberja1 has joined
369 2013-01-21 03:58:08 jimmyy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
370 2013-01-21 04:02:56 spaz926 is now known as away!~spaz926@unaffiliated/spaz926|spaz926
371 2013-01-21 04:04:01 TwilightSparklee has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
372 2013-01-21 04:08:10 Goonie has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
373 2013-01-21 04:12:50 torsthaldo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
374 2013-01-21 04:14:04 TwilightSparklee has joined
375 2013-01-21 04:14:25 torsthaldo has joined
376 2013-01-21 04:19:51 paybitcoin has joined
377 2013-01-21 04:26:47 PhantomSpark has joined
378 2013-01-21 04:31:27 Impaler has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
379 2013-01-21 04:32:37 jrmithdobbs has quit (Quit: quit)
380 2013-01-21 04:56:38 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
381 2013-01-21 04:56:46 TheSeven has joined
382 2013-01-21 05:07:10 Impaler has joined
383 2013-01-21 05:10:38 RainbowDashh has joined
384 2013-01-21 05:11:07 TwilightSparklee has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
385 2013-01-21 05:22:42 LargoG has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
386 2013-01-21 05:23:19 D34TH has quit (Quit: Leaving)
387 2013-01-21 05:24:33 drivelights has joined
388 2013-01-21 05:28:12 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
389 2013-01-21 05:29:21 FredEE has joined
390 2013-01-21 05:31:43 RBecker is now known as mrcrabs
391 2013-01-21 05:31:50 mrcrabs is now known as RBecker
392 2013-01-21 05:32:05 RBecker is now known as sublime5447_
393 2013-01-21 05:32:10 sublime5447_ is now known as RBecker
394 2013-01-21 05:33:32 RBecker is now known as mrcrabs_
395 2013-01-21 05:33:38 mrcrabs_ is now known as RBecker
396 2013-01-21 05:35:57 safra has joined
397 2013-01-21 05:41:09 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
398 2013-01-21 05:47:56 Ferroh has quit (Quit: *poof*)
399 2013-01-21 05:55:19 Jamesz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
400 2013-01-21 06:03:52 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
401 2013-01-21 06:06:54 b4epoche has joined
402 2013-01-21 06:13:21 Ferroh has joined
403 2013-01-21 06:13:30 jrmithdobbs has joined
404 2013-01-21 06:15:08 impulse is now known as impulse-
405 2013-01-21 06:19:21 etotheipi_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
406 2013-01-21 06:20:36 reizuki__ has joined
407 2013-01-21 06:35:01 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
408 2013-01-21 06:42:46 drivelights has left ()
409 2013-01-21 06:48:33 optimator_ has joined
410 2013-01-21 06:48:44 RazielZ has joined
411 2013-01-21 06:53:48 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
412 2013-01-21 06:54:57 ThomasV has joined
413 2013-01-21 07:23:35 jrmithdobbs has quit (Quit: quit)
414 2013-01-21 07:33:55 jrmithdobbs has joined
415 2013-01-21 07:35:21 jrmithdobbs has quit (Client Quit)
416 2013-01-21 07:39:33 Impaler_ has joined
417 2013-01-21 07:40:09 paul0_ has quit (Quit: paul0_)
418 2013-01-21 07:40:12 jrmithdobbs has joined
419 2013-01-21 07:41:34 Impaler has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
420 2013-01-21 07:43:46 jrmithdobbs has quit (Client Quit)
421 2013-01-21 07:47:21 jrmithdobbs has joined
422 2013-01-21 07:47:29 jrmithdobbs has quit (Client Quit)
423 2013-01-21 07:52:16 jrmithdobbs has joined
424 2013-01-21 07:53:25 BTCOxygen has joined
425 2013-01-21 07:55:40 jrmithdobbs has quit (Client Quit)
426 2013-01-21 08:01:01 jrmithdobbs has joined
427 2013-01-21 08:03:53 toffoo has quit ()
428 2013-01-21 08:03:56 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
429 2013-01-21 08:06:33 Jamesz has joined
430 2013-01-21 08:10:24 jdnavarro has joined
431 2013-01-21 08:15:13 Joric has joined
432 2013-01-21 08:16:50 jrmithdobbs has quit (Quit: quit)
433 2013-01-21 08:18:00 nanotube has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
434 2013-01-21 08:18:00 gribble has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
435 2013-01-21 08:26:12 yareyare has joined
436 2013-01-21 08:28:53 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
437 2013-01-21 08:29:44 nanotube has joined
438 2013-01-21 08:33:30 gribble has joined
439 2013-01-21 08:42:48 jrmithdobbs has joined
440 2013-01-21 08:43:44 jrmithdobbs has quit (Client Quit)
441 2013-01-21 08:49:45 skeledrew has joined
442 2013-01-21 08:52:50 freakazoid has joined
443 2013-01-21 08:52:50 Goonie has joined
444 2013-01-21 08:53:57 Goonie has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
445 2013-01-21 08:56:46 Joric has quit ()
446 2013-01-21 09:02:13 jrmithdobbs has joined
447 2013-01-21 09:02:45 zooko has joined
448 2013-01-21 09:04:55 terryww has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
449 2013-01-21 09:05:58 dlb76 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
450 2013-01-21 09:11:07 spaz926 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
451 2013-01-21 09:11:31 jrmithdobbs has quit (Quit: quit)
452 2013-01-21 09:24:39 da2ce7_d is now known as da2ce7
453 2013-01-21 09:28:27 ThomasV has joined
454 2013-01-21 09:36:51 TD_ has joined
455 2013-01-21 09:42:42 darkee has joined
456 2013-01-21 09:45:25 pooler has joined
457 2013-01-21 09:45:28 pooler has quit (Changing host)
458 2013-01-21 09:45:28 pooler has joined
459 2013-01-21 09:49:18 dvide has quit ()
460 2013-01-21 09:52:04 <muhoo> using testnet3-in-a-box, works great, but it seems the tx script is broken, or i'm misusing it somehow
461 2013-01-21 09:52:18 <muhoo> they seem to have only 1 chunk not 2
462 2013-01-21 09:53:13 <sipa> "chunk" ?
463 2013-01-21 09:53:50 <muhoo> opcodes
464 2013-01-21 09:54:16 <muhoo> this is bitcoinj, it splits the scripts into what it calls "chunks", which appears to be opcodes
465 2013-01-21 09:54:30 <TD_> opcodes or data pieces
466 2013-01-21 09:54:43 TD_ is now known as DT
467 2013-01-21 09:54:48 DT is now known as TD
468 2013-01-21 09:54:51 <muhoo> data, right, oh cool, bitcoinj dev around, great
469 2013-01-21 09:55:42 <muhoo> so i'm using the http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/testnet-in-a-box/ , i can connect to it from bitcoinj, great, can see transactions, great, but i'm getting exceptions
470 2013-01-21 09:55:51 <TD> are you trying to use getFromAddress()
471 2013-01-21 09:56:35 <muhoo> atm, i'm using the c++ client sendtoaddress to generate transactions, and watching them from bitcoinj
472 2013-01-21 09:57:06 <TD> i meant, in bitcoinj, are you calling getFromAddress() ?
473 2013-01-21 09:57:15 <TD> i can help but i need to see your code and stack traces
474 2013-01-21 09:57:21 <TD> also are you using the latest version from git?
475 2013-01-21 09:57:36 <muhoo> not directly, no
476 2013-01-21 09:57:43 <muhoo> i'm using 0.6.1 release
477 2013-01-21 09:58:09 <TD> ok
478 2013-01-21 09:58:47 <muhoo> my code is just a PeerEventListener, onTransaction, looking at the transactions
479 2013-01-21 09:59:03 <muhoo> the transaction object has this exception embedded in it (and it also spews to stderr as well)
480 2013-01-21 09:59:09 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
481 2013-01-21 09:59:33 <muhoo> this one: throw new ScriptException("Script not of right size, expecting 2 but got " + chunks.size());
482 2013-01-21 10:01:27 <TD> you can't really have exceptions embedded in objects. it must be triggered by something. i think you are calling tx.getFromAddress()
483 2013-01-21 10:01:34 <muhoo> that's in Script.java, apparently.
484 2013-01-21 10:02:00 <muhoo> oh right, Transaction.toString() is what i'm calling
485 2013-01-21 10:02:06 <muhoo> and i bet that calls getFromAddress, yes
486 2013-01-21 10:02:08 <TD> ok
487 2013-01-21 10:02:18 t7 has joined
488 2013-01-21 10:02:30 <TD> try upgrading to the code in git head
489 2013-01-21 10:02:34 <TD> s/head/master/
490 2013-01-21 10:02:50 <TD> it should work better there. just generally it's best to use the latest code from git because the code changes and improves quite fast these days
491 2013-01-21 10:03:11 <TD> what's happening is you're getting a transaction that isn't spending pay-to-address outputs
492 2013-01-21 10:03:14 <muhoo> i've got 0.7-SNAPSHOT around, will try that
493 2013-01-21 10:03:25 <TD> ok. just do a git pull first, so you're fully up to date
494 2013-01-21 10:03:43 <muhoo> fair enough, thanks. i'll dig around in git history and see what might have changed too
495 2013-01-21 10:04:56 <TD> the toString() method checks the format of inputs/outputs before trying to print them
496 2013-01-21 10:05:05 <TD> if you've still got issues then, let me know
497 2013-01-21 10:05:32 <muhoo> fair enough. thanks for writing this, makes my life a lot easier.
498 2013-01-21 10:06:23 <TD> no problems. thanks for reporting issues. i always want to make it easier to use. but 0.6.1 is quite old now
499 2013-01-21 10:06:27 <TD> we want to release 0.7 as soon as possible
500 2013-01-21 10:06:29 <muhoo> hmm. looks like getFromAddress hasn't changed since march 2011, so i doubt this is related
501 2013-01-21 10:06:33 CodesInChaos has joined
502 2013-01-21 10:06:37 <TD> Transaction.toString() i think has done though
503 2013-01-21 10:06:49 <TD> the concept of a "from address" doesn't always make sense. not every output even pays to an address
504 2013-01-21 10:07:06 <TD> anyway, i only accept bug reports against git master, so ...
505 2013-01-21 10:07:24 <muhoo> of course. i don't actually think it's a bug in bitcoinj, but will confirm
506 2013-01-21 10:07:29 bitnumus has joined
507 2013-01-21 10:07:42 <TD> if it's complicated or confusing to use, then it's a bug in my view, but it may also be fixed already (at some other layer)
508 2013-01-21 10:08:35 <muhoo> yeah "from" seems like it doesn't make sense anyway.
509 2013-01-21 10:09:45 <TD> it's convenient to work with sometimes, but it's not a general concept
510 2013-01-21 10:10:15 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
511 2013-01-21 10:10:33 <muhoo> aha, yes. in master, it checks for scriptsigsize before calling getfromaddress
512 2013-01-21 10:10:50 <muhoo> if (scriptSig.chunks.size() == 2)
513 2013-01-21 10:12:00 <TD> right
514 2013-01-21 10:12:45 m0mchil has joined
515 2013-01-21 10:12:46 m0mchil has quit (Changing host)
516 2013-01-21 10:12:46 m0mchil has joined
517 2013-01-21 10:12:59 <muhoo> are you mike hearn, by any chance?
518 2013-01-21 10:13:06 <TD> yes
519 2013-01-21 10:14:21 <muhoo> excellent, thanks for setting the testnet to be testnet3 by default too (latest commit)
520 2013-01-21 10:18:05 b4epoche has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
521 2013-01-21 10:19:13 <TD> yeah. i'll probably tweak that a bit again, see issue 285, but it shouldn't impact you
522 2013-01-21 10:21:43 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
523 2013-01-21 10:21:51 b4epoche has joined
524 2013-01-21 10:22:11 <muhoo> hmm. mvn package fails on the HEAD
525 2013-01-21 10:23:03 <muhoo> https://www.refheap.com/paste/8830 ... can't chase that down at the moment
526 2013-01-21 10:24:00 kicek has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
527 2013-01-21 10:24:11 <muhoo> "java.io.FileNotFoundException: bitcoinj-test does not exist or is empty" looks like the issue
528 2013-01-21 10:24:55 <TD> hmm
529 2013-01-21 10:24:58 <TD> Failed tests: estimatedBlockTime(com.google.bitcoin.core.BlockChainTest): expected:<Tue Oct 23 17:35:05 PDT 2012> but was:<Tue Oct 23 08:35:05 PDT 2012>
530 2013-01-21 10:25:03 <TD> matt pinged me about this the other day
531 2013-01-21 10:25:06 <TD> it doesn't fail for me
532 2013-01-21 10:25:15 <TD> so that looks like some kind of timezone confusion. it's in recently added code.
533 2013-01-21 10:25:17 <muhoo> is there ome kind of jenkins for bitcoinj?
534 2013-01-21 10:25:30 <TD> one was set up, but it doesn't really work well.
535 2013-01-21 10:25:47 <TD> i normally run the unit tests before checking things in anyway. in this case, as i said, i think the tests have some dependency on the locale in which they're run
536 2013-01-21 10:25:54 <muhoo> yep
537 2013-01-21 10:26:00 <TD> you can just comment out the @Test annotation on that method for now if you want. i'll fix it later
538 2013-01-21 10:26:28 <muhoo> ok
539 2013-01-21 10:26:38 B0g4r7 has joined
540 2013-01-21 10:28:11 rdymac has joined
541 2013-01-21 10:28:49 <muhoo> oh i see SimpleDateFormat, gah
542 2013-01-21 10:29:05 <muhoo> parse assumes locale. i've had to deal with this before
543 2013-01-21 10:29:25 <muhoo> compiles now with that removed, thank you very much
544 2013-01-21 10:30:54 one_zero has quit ()
545 2013-01-21 10:31:00 <TD> i see
546 2013-01-21 10:31:08 <TD> that's annoying
547 2013-01-21 10:35:21 <muhoo> well, even after all that, still getting that exception, using HEAD
548 2013-01-21 10:35:38 <muhoo> but i'm not going to sweat it. it's just in tostring
549 2013-01-21 10:35:46 <TD> odd
550 2013-01-21 10:35:55 <TD> toString should always work.
551 2013-01-21 10:36:04 <TD> this is a tx on your private testnet3 right
552 2013-01-21 10:40:07 TD_ has joined
553 2013-01-21 10:40:33 <muhoo> yes
554 2013-01-21 10:40:55 <TD_> ok
555 2013-01-21 10:41:00 kicek has joined
556 2013-01-21 10:41:01 TD has quit (Disconnected by services)
557 2013-01-21 10:41:02 TD_ is now known as TD
558 2013-01-21 10:41:24 <muhoo> and i'm looking at the code and it *should* work. if there aren't 2 chunks, transaction.tostring should never be even getting to the stuff that's blowing up.
559 2013-01-21 10:41:41 <TD> are you sure you're actually running against master and not the previous version still?
560 2013-01-21 10:42:05 <TD> you could print NetworkParameters.PROTOCOL_VERSION to se
561 2013-01-21 10:42:06 <TD> to see
562 2013-01-21 10:42:25 <TD> maven is odd. i don't like it much. i've had multiple cases where it didn't seem to link apps against the right library version.
563 2013-01-21 10:49:02 <muhoo> assertEquals(new SimpleDateFormat("yyyy-MM-dd'T'HH:mm:ss.SSSZ").parse("2012-10-23T08:35:05.000-0700"), d); fixes that bug
564 2013-01-21 10:50:33 <muhoo> huh, 60001 it says. hmm.
565 2013-01-21 10:50:37 * muhoo kicks maven
566 2013-01-21 10:51:20 <muhoo> so, simply changing the format string of simpledateformat to include the timezone, should make that test work anywhere in the world now.
567 2013-01-21 10:52:21 <muhoo> if you've got a bugtracker i could paste that in there if you like
568 2013-01-21 11:04:29 <muhoo> it looks like in HEAD the protocol version is 60001 there anyway
569 2013-01-21 11:05:14 <muhoo> it appears i'm definitely running the latest. but it works so i can move along with whatever it was i originally set out to do
570 2013-01-21 11:07:57 <TD> muhoo: there is a bug tracker and yes i'd appreciate that thanks
571 2013-01-21 11:08:03 <TD> unfortunately i have to do real work at the moment :)
572 2013-01-21 11:08:32 <muhoo> is the protocol version in 0.7 supposed to be 60001?
573 2013-01-21 11:08:40 <TD> muhoo: oh, sorry, you're right, i got confused. i was forgetting that i hadn't merged matts bloom filtering branch yet.
574 2013-01-21 11:08:48 <TD> i think that changes the value
575 2013-01-21 11:08:53 <TD> so yeah for now 60001 is right
576 2013-01-21 11:09:13 <TD> sorry for the runaround
577 2013-01-21 11:09:15 <muhoo> fair enough. thanks. will do, and i'll let you get back to real work.
578 2013-01-21 11:11:16 <TD> if you figure out why it still seems to crash, let me know, i'm quite curious about that
579 2013-01-21 11:15:25 dlb76 has joined
580 2013-01-21 11:16:49 Jamesz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
581 2013-01-21 11:20:18 drizztbsd has joined
582 2013-01-21 11:20:28 pere has quit (Quit: Forlater kanalen)
583 2013-01-21 11:26:53 zooko has joined
584 2013-01-21 11:28:23 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
585 2013-01-21 11:34:23 rdymac has joined
586 2013-01-21 11:36:19 OneFixt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
587 2013-01-21 11:36:33 OneFixt has joined
588 2013-01-21 11:38:17 terryww has joined
589 2013-01-21 11:39:32 daybyter has joined
590 2013-01-21 11:41:09 da2ce7 has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
591 2013-01-21 11:42:41 da2ce7 has joined
592 2013-01-21 11:46:07 tigger0 has joined
593 2013-01-21 11:47:45 jdnavarro has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
594 2013-01-21 11:47:57 apexseals has joined
595 2013-01-21 11:48:31 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
596 2013-01-21 11:58:50 da2ce7 has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
597 2013-01-21 12:00:00 <muhoo> TD: race condtion
598 2013-01-21 12:00:37 <muhoo> it gives that error when immediately seen on the network. the same exact transaction, tostring'ed later, does not error.
599 2013-01-21 12:01:45 <TD> that's very odd. given that it was crashing when trying to print an input, which is supposed to never change.
600 2013-01-21 12:02:39 <muhoo> actually, no. it's not that. i suspect some maveny thing
601 2013-01-21 12:03:09 <muhoo> it is working now.
602 2013-01-21 12:03:43 SRoulette has joined
603 2013-01-21 12:03:57 <muhoo> i did make one small change, declaring chunks to be public, but i doubt it made a difference
604 2013-01-21 12:04:10 <SRoulette> keep up the great work everyone :)
605 2013-01-21 12:06:03 <muhoo> heh, these guys are doing great work, i'm just thrashing around trying to figure out how the stuff works :-)
606 2013-01-21 12:07:43 Cylta has joined
607 2013-01-21 12:12:59 <muhoo> ok, it works, problem gone now. it was definitely some bit of state hanging around, i'm still not sure where, caches maybe, but i'm pretty sure it wasn't any bug in bitcoinj.
608 2013-01-21 12:13:06 Cylta has quit (Changing host)
609 2013-01-21 12:13:06 Cylta has joined
610 2013-01-21 12:13:14 <TD> ok
611 2013-01-21 12:13:33 <muhoo> it also may be some weird state in testnet-in-a-box too
612 2013-01-21 12:13:57 <muhoo> because the transactions are showing fromaddresses, which maybe just means they have them now.
613 2013-01-21 12:16:49 nus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
614 2013-01-21 12:17:07 nus has joined
615 2013-01-21 12:19:14 <muhoo> yep! that is it. if i use the pristine new testnet-box, i get the error
616 2013-01-21 12:19:53 <muhoo> if i use the testnet-box that has a bunch of transactions i've just now done for testing, transferring back and forth between the two nodes, then no error.
617 2013-01-21 12:20:17 <muhoo> so anyway, it's now at least replicable.
618 2013-01-21 12:22:41 <TD> ok. i haven't tried testnet3-in-a-box
619 2013-01-21 12:22:53 <TD> i know gavin stuffed it full of odd transactions, so we should really work through those issues
620 2013-01-21 12:23:45 Impaler_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
621 2013-01-21 12:30:31 pooler has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 10.0.11/20121208182120])
622 2013-01-21 12:40:18 jdnavarro has joined
623 2013-01-21 12:42:02 JZavala has joined
624 2013-01-21 12:46:07 Dyaheon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
625 2013-01-21 12:49:29 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
626 2013-01-21 12:51:05 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
627 2013-01-21 12:52:20 Cylta has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
628 2013-01-21 12:55:32 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
629 2013-01-21 12:58:46 geb has quit (Excess Flood)
630 2013-01-21 12:59:16 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
631 2013-01-21 12:59:23 geb has joined
632 2013-01-21 12:59:23 geb has quit (Excess Flood)
633 2013-01-21 12:59:33 paraipan has joined
634 2013-01-21 13:00:00 MrTiggr has joined
635 2013-01-21 13:00:03 geb has joined
636 2013-01-21 13:04:55 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
637 2013-01-21 13:05:48 jrmithdobbs has joined
638 2013-01-21 13:09:11 darkee has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
639 2013-01-21 13:09:48 darkee has joined
640 2013-01-21 13:10:29 stalled has joined
641 2013-01-21 13:13:26 jrmithdobbs has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
642 2013-01-21 13:17:25 legitnick has joined
643 2013-01-21 13:17:26 jrmithdobbs has joined
644 2013-01-21 13:18:43 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
645 2013-01-21 13:19:34 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as away!~PiZZaMaN2@unaffiliated/pizzaman2k|PiZZaMaN2K
646 2013-01-21 13:24:02 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
647 2013-01-21 13:24:19 TD has joined
648 2013-01-21 13:28:14 agricocb has joined
649 2013-01-21 13:28:32 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
650 2013-01-21 13:36:03 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
651 2013-01-21 13:36:41 TD has joined
652 2013-01-21 13:37:29 TD_ has joined
653 2013-01-21 13:41:17 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
654 2013-01-21 13:41:17 TD_ is now known as TD
655 2013-01-21 13:43:19 SRoulette has quit (Quit: Page closed)
656 2013-01-21 13:43:56 paraipan has joined
657 2013-01-21 13:44:40 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
658 2013-01-21 13:46:25 MobiusL has joined
659 2013-01-21 13:47:52 testnode9 has quit (Read error: No route to host)
660 2013-01-21 13:53:27 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
661 2013-01-21 13:54:08 t7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
662 2013-01-21 13:54:34 t7 has joined
663 2013-01-21 13:57:38 rdymac has joined
664 2013-01-21 13:58:14 reizuki__ is now known as reizuki
665 2013-01-21 13:58:30 reizuki has quit (Changing host)
666 2013-01-21 13:58:30 reizuki has joined
667 2013-01-21 13:58:37 datagutt has joined
668 2013-01-21 13:59:06 reizuki is now known as reizuki_
669 2013-01-21 13:59:14 reizuki_ is now known as reizuki__
670 2013-01-21 13:59:20 reizuki__ is now known as reizuki
671 2013-01-21 14:00:41 rdymac has quit (Client Quit)
672 2013-01-21 14:03:09 Cylta has joined
673 2013-01-21 14:04:36 iddo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
674 2013-01-21 14:05:33 iddo has joined
675 2013-01-21 14:17:48 rdponticelli has joined
676 2013-01-21 14:26:26 paraipan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
677 2013-01-21 14:27:11 paraipan has joined
678 2013-01-21 14:34:05 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
679 2013-01-21 14:36:44 b4epoche has joined
680 2013-01-21 14:42:01 Hashdog has joined
681 2013-01-21 14:42:52 FredEE has joined
682 2013-01-21 14:52:02 runeks has joined
683 2013-01-21 14:52:19 rdymac has joined
684 2013-01-21 14:52:41 yareyare has quit (Quit: zzzzzz)
685 2013-01-21 14:56:06 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
686 2013-01-21 14:58:51 Dyaheon has joined
687 2013-01-21 14:59:30 etotheipi_ has joined
688 2013-01-21 15:01:03 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
689 2013-01-21 15:13:24 FredEE has joined
690 2013-01-21 15:15:19 zooko has joined
691 2013-01-21 15:21:51 pusle has joined
692 2013-01-21 15:26:17 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
693 2013-01-21 15:32:49 btcven has joined
694 2013-01-21 15:33:14 pusle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
695 2013-01-21 15:33:50 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
696 2013-01-21 15:37:50 t7 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
697 2013-01-21 15:38:40 andytoshi has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2)
698 2013-01-21 15:39:08 Lolcust has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
699 2013-01-21 15:39:40 Lolcust has joined
700 2013-01-21 15:40:12 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
701 2013-01-21 15:44:11 EPiSKiNG- has quit ()
702 2013-01-21 15:44:37 rdponticelli has joined
703 2013-01-21 15:46:43 swappermall_ has joined
704 2013-01-21 15:50:15 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
705 2013-01-21 15:56:23 daybyter has joined
706 2013-01-21 15:56:59 zooko has joined
707 2013-01-21 15:58:24 btcven has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
708 2013-01-21 16:05:16 D34TH has joined
709 2013-01-21 16:06:30 terryww has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
710 2013-01-21 16:13:12 legitnick has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
711 2013-01-21 16:17:15 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
712 2013-01-21 16:19:29 Gladamas has joined
713 2013-01-21 16:21:08 paul0 has joined
714 2013-01-21 16:23:12 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
715 2013-01-21 16:23:48 swappermall has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
716 2013-01-21 16:24:56 paul0_ has joined
717 2013-01-21 16:25:21 paul0 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
718 2013-01-21 16:25:22 paul0_ is now known as paul0
719 2013-01-21 16:26:43 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
720 2013-01-21 16:27:27 Lolcust has quit (Quit: Nap time)
721 2013-01-21 16:28:01 LargoG has joined
722 2013-01-21 16:28:01 Diapolo has joined
723 2013-01-21 16:30:07 nus has joined
724 2013-01-21 16:31:23 Lexa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
725 2013-01-21 16:33:50 veerboot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
726 2013-01-21 16:34:07 MC-Eeepc has joined
727 2013-01-21 16:36:39 MC1984 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
728 2013-01-21 16:37:14 Lolcust has joined
729 2013-01-21 16:37:15 zooko has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
730 2013-01-21 16:37:36 tester_ has joined
731 2013-01-21 16:38:34 paul0 has quit (Quit: paul0)
732 2013-01-21 16:39:35 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
733 2013-01-21 16:39:35 WolfAlex has joined
734 2013-01-21 16:39:40 zooko has joined
735 2013-01-21 16:49:24 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
736 2013-01-21 16:50:10 pooler has joined
737 2013-01-21 16:50:11 pooler has quit (Changing host)
738 2013-01-21 16:50:11 pooler has joined
739 2013-01-21 16:55:41 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
740 2013-01-21 16:57:31 skeledrew has joined
741 2013-01-21 17:03:34 bitnumus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
742 2013-01-21 17:07:40 zooko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
743 2013-01-21 17:13:20 <TD> gavinandresen: OP_EVAL never made it into reality, right?
744 2013-01-21 17:13:47 <Luke-Jr> TD: right, it was discarded and replaced with BIP 16
745 2013-01-21 17:14:12 <Luke-Jr> (after being merged to master git)
746 2013-01-21 17:14:27 <TD> i have a bug report against bitcoinj saying that there's a testnet3 transaction that expects OP_EVAL to exist
747 2013-01-21 17:14:28 <TD> http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/detail?id=290
748 2013-01-21 17:15:19 <Luke-Jr> TD: the 0xfa-0xfe "ops" aren't real ops at all
749 2013-01-21 17:15:25 <Luke-Jr> so I don't see how that's related
750 2013-01-21 17:15:42 <TD> yeah, exactly.
751 2013-01-21 17:16:10 <TD> the bug report is saying that some tx on testnet3 has template ops in the coinbase
752 2013-01-21 17:17:09 terryww has joined
753 2013-01-21 17:19:28 <Luke-Jr> O.o
754 2013-01-21 17:21:23 bitafterbit has joined
755 2013-01-21 17:22:53 <sipa> TD, Luke-Jr: the data in the coinbase is not required to be a valid script
756 2013-01-21 17:23:14 <sipa> but it is attempted to be parsed, to count sigops in it (unfortunately, and changing this is a hardfork)
757 2013-01-21 17:24:15 <Luke-Jr> sipa: and those template opcodes are treated special? :o
758 2013-01-21 17:25:06 <sipa> shouldn't be
759 2013-01-21 17:26:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: we could ALMOST fix it with only a soft fork, in fact! The coinbase can only be a max of 100 bytes, so there could only be 100 checksigs in it. Just reduce the maximum by 100 and then don't attempt to count any there.
760 2013-01-21 17:26:26 <gmaxwell> But checkmultisig kinda gums that up. :(
761 2013-01-21 17:27:25 <sipa> TD, Luke-Jr: i haven't looked at the actual script in that bugreport, but if parsing of a datapush fails because of eof, that part is simply not counted for sigops
762 2013-01-21 17:27:36 freakazoid has joined
763 2013-01-21 17:27:38 <sipa> well, pushes are never sigops, so that doesn't really matter
764 2013-01-21 17:28:26 <sipa> i think a dummy try-catch around parsing a script, when looking for sigops, is correct
765 2013-01-21 17:28:34 <TD> ok
766 2013-01-21 17:28:43 <TD> a bug for BlueMatt to look at
767 2013-01-21 17:28:50 <TD> another subtle difference that could cause hard-forks
768 2013-01-21 17:28:51 <TD> sigh
769 2013-01-21 17:29:18 <sipa> such a try-catch should always be used, not just for coinbases
770 2013-01-21 17:29:40 <sipa> for example an output script that fails to parse because of this, is still a valid output, afaik
771 2013-01-21 17:30:23 <TD> outputs that fail to parse are valid?
772 2013-01-21 17:31:31 <sipa> pretty sure they are - evaluation happens before trying to spend them
773 2013-01-21 17:31:54 <sipa> s/happens before/only happens when/
774 2013-01-21 17:33:44 tester_ is now known as legitnick1
775 2013-01-21 17:35:30 LargoG has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
776 2013-01-21 17:36:32 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
777 2013-01-21 17:37:01 LargoG has joined
778 2013-01-21 17:37:26 Gladamas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
779 2013-01-21 17:37:42 D34TH has joined
780 2013-01-21 17:43:05 reizuki__ has joined
781 2013-01-21 17:43:11 reizuki has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
782 2013-01-21 17:44:15 reizuki__ is now known as reizuki
783 2013-01-21 17:45:04 Guest39930 is now known as asciilifeform
784 2013-01-21 17:45:11 t7 has joined
785 2013-01-21 17:48:33 rdponticelli has joined
786 2013-01-21 17:51:59 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
787 2013-01-21 17:54:14 agath_pd has joined
788 2013-01-21 17:54:38 tg has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
789 2013-01-21 17:54:38 dub has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
790 2013-01-21 17:54:43 luke-jr_ has joined
791 2013-01-21 17:54:51 jurov_ has joined
792 2013-01-21 17:55:07 runeks has quit (Quit: Leaving)
793 2013-01-21 17:55:13 jurov has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
794 2013-01-21 17:55:13 Luke-Jr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
795 2013-01-21 17:55:13 agath has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
796 2013-01-21 17:55:50 dub has joined
797 2013-01-21 17:57:44 tg has joined
798 2013-01-21 18:01:55 luke-jr_ is now known as Luke-Jr
799 2013-01-21 18:02:45 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
800 2013-01-21 18:03:13 <legitnick1> 1E-8 BTC
801 2013-01-21 18:04:13 twixed has joined
802 2013-01-21 18:04:14 <Luke-Jr> 1 TBCáµ
803 2013-01-21 18:04:31 <Cylta> 1 satoshi
804 2013-01-21 18:05:10 <sipa> 1 decananobitcoin
805 2013-01-21 18:05:17 <sipa> 1 centimicrobitcoin
806 2013-01-21 18:05:53 <Luke-Jr> sipa likes it long
807 2013-01-21 18:06:34 <legitnick1> I'm pretty sure these tx's are never gonna go through
808 2013-01-21 18:06:51 <sipa> 1 hectohectopicobitcoin
809 2013-01-21 18:07:40 <Cylta> sipa: no such thing... 10 nanobitcoins is smallest piece :P
810 2013-01-21 18:08:31 <legitnick1> titcoins
811 2013-01-21 18:08:35 <sipa> Cylta: 10 nanobitcoins is as meaningful or meaningless as 10000 picobitcoin
812 2013-01-21 18:08:54 <Luke-Jr> [17:51:17] [Notice] -mrmist- [Server Notice] - This server will be shutting down for maintenance in approximately 10 minutes. Please reconnect to another server in the chat.freenode.net rotation to continue the freenode experience.
813 2013-01-21 18:08:55 <Luke-Jr> aww
814 2013-01-21 18:09:58 <muhoo> what is this, capacitor values?
815 2013-01-21 18:10:18 <sipa> flux capacitors
816 2013-01-21 18:10:20 <muhoo> pF, nF
817 2013-01-21 18:10:27 <muhoo> pBC nBC
818 2013-01-21 18:10:48 <muhoo> yoyodyne bitcoins
819 2013-01-21 18:11:27 <muhoo> o sorry, delorean, not yoyodyne, wrong movie
820 2013-01-21 18:12:44 jdnavarro has joined
821 2013-01-21 18:16:03 * jgarzik yawns
822 2013-01-21 18:16:21 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: up all night? :P
823 2013-01-21 18:17:31 jurov_ is now known as jurov
824 2013-01-21 18:19:19 Diapolo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
825 2013-01-21 18:19:44 Diapolo has joined
826 2013-01-21 18:20:05 Diapolo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
827 2013-01-21 18:20:22 mortikia has joined
828 2013-01-21 18:21:21 Dagger2 has joined
829 2013-01-21 18:22:45 nus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
830 2013-01-21 18:23:02 nus has joined
831 2013-01-21 18:24:40 CodesInChaos has joined
832 2013-01-21 18:25:53 luke-jr_ has joined
833 2013-01-21 18:26:17 luke-jr_ is now known as Guest76326
834 2013-01-21 18:27:04 Guest76326 is now known as luke-jr__
835 2013-01-21 18:27:07 tg has joined
836 2013-01-21 18:27:13 sneak has joined
837 2013-01-21 18:27:14 sneak has quit (Changing host)
838 2013-01-21 18:27:14 sneak has joined
839 2013-01-21 18:27:15 xHire has joined
840 2013-01-21 18:27:15 agath_pd has joined
841 2013-01-21 18:27:20 darksk1ez has joined
842 2013-01-21 18:28:50 <sipa> jgarzik: your child thread keeps signalling you?
843 2013-01-21 18:29:11 DBordello has joined
844 2013-01-21 18:30:08 dub has joined
845 2013-01-21 18:35:58 legitnick1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
846 2013-01-21 18:36:42 <gavinandresen> sipa: RE: upgrading our builds to Precise: after more thought, I don't think we should do that until we get rid of our bdb dependency (since Precise doesn't like bdb 4.8)
847 2013-01-21 18:37:29 <sipa> gavinandresen: good point
848 2013-01-21 18:38:02 <sipa> gavinandresen: but i'm not confortable with the current leveldb stuff on windows either
849 2013-01-21 18:38:15 <gavinandresen> sipa: I'm going to build a couple different versions of bitcoind, and then try to measure CPU/memory usage on Windows
850 2013-01-21 18:38:17 unknown45682 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
851 2013-01-21 18:38:27 <sipa> gavinandresen: great
852 2013-01-21 18:39:06 <gavinandresen> I'll do: current git HEAD, built on Lucid, the native port built on Lucid (assuming it builds⦠I believe it should), both 32-bit.
853 2013-01-21 18:39:37 <gavinandresen> And assuming I haven't pulled ALL of my hair out by then, I'll see if I mingw-w64 on Lucid works
854 2013-01-21 18:39:53 <sipa> mingw-w64 is not in lucid, afaik?
855 2013-01-21 18:40:09 <gavinandresen> there is a mingw-w64 Lucid package
856 2013-01-21 18:40:19 <sipa> oh, good
857 2013-01-21 18:41:39 <sipa> gavinandresen: you'll need a command line with a g++-4.4 in it instead of g++-4.6, though
858 2013-01-21 18:41:48 unknown45682 has joined
859 2013-01-21 18:42:33 <gavinandresen> sipa: that's easy, though. The only annoying part is rebuilding all the dependencies
860 2013-01-21 18:44:23 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
861 2013-01-21 18:44:29 craig has joined
862 2013-01-21 18:44:42 legitnick1 has joined
863 2013-01-21 18:45:35 agath_pd is now known as agath
864 2013-01-21 18:48:20 jrmithdobbs has joined
865 2013-01-21 18:48:57 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
866 2013-01-21 18:51:36 b4epoche has joined
867 2013-01-21 18:52:17 Diapolo has joined
868 2013-01-21 18:53:58 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
869 2013-01-21 18:55:57 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
870 2013-01-21 18:56:33 dust-otc has joined
871 2013-01-21 18:56:39 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
872 2013-01-21 19:00:52 MC-Eeepc has joined
873 2013-01-21 19:01:33 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
874 2013-01-21 19:02:40 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
875 2013-01-21 19:03:56 Diapolo has left ()
876 2013-01-21 19:06:49 TD_ has joined
877 2013-01-21 19:07:18 grau has joined
878 2013-01-21 19:09:48 Joric has joined
879 2013-01-21 19:09:48 Joric has quit (Changing host)
880 2013-01-21 19:09:48 Joric has joined
881 2013-01-21 19:10:38 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
882 2013-01-21 19:10:39 TD_ is now known as TD
883 2013-01-21 19:14:26 Cylta has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
884 2013-01-21 19:17:14 ThomasV_ has joined
885 2013-01-21 19:18:32 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
886 2013-01-21 19:20:50 TD has joined
887 2013-01-21 19:21:31 RainbowDashh has joined
888 2013-01-21 19:22:38 rdponticelli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
889 2013-01-21 19:23:01 sytse has joined
890 2013-01-21 19:23:51 forrestv has joined
891 2013-01-21 19:26:16 Joric has quit ()
892 2013-01-21 19:29:07 <BlueMatt> TD: saw the coinbase script parse bug...Ill look at it later :(
893 2013-01-21 19:29:11 <TD> ok
894 2013-01-21 19:29:15 <TD> there's no hurry on that one
895 2013-01-21 19:29:26 <TD> sipa says that parsing for sigop counting cannot fail in satoshis code
896 2013-01-21 19:29:39 <BlueMatt> yes, I know that, and I thought I had fixed that
897 2013-01-21 19:29:56 <BlueMatt> (Im pretty sure i did in regular outputs, maybe i just missed coinbase)
898 2013-01-21 19:30:05 <BlueMatt> anyway, Ill look at it
899 2013-01-21 19:33:30 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
900 2013-01-21 19:34:33 <sipa> gavinandresen: also, i have a small patch reduce that should reduce the load on the heap a bit, it probably helps for windows (where i've seen reports of high memory usage)
901 2013-01-21 19:34:42 <sipa> s/reduce/ready/
902 2013-01-21 19:37:26 rdponticelli has joined
903 2013-01-21 19:37:31 luke-jr__ is now known as Luke-Jr
904 2013-01-21 19:37:32 <gavinandresen> sipa: ok-- will the person who reported high memory usage be able to tell you if your changes actually make a difference?
905 2013-01-21 19:38:12 <sipa> no idea, several people did, afaik
906 2013-01-21 19:38:26 unknown45682 has quit ()
907 2013-01-21 19:38:41 <gavinandresen> well, in my experience, it is alway a bad idea to make changes that you THINK will make something faster / use less memory, without benchmarking before/after
908 2013-01-21 19:38:50 dvide has joined
909 2013-01-21 19:39:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: does it reduce the crazy fragementation Linux at least?
910 2013-01-21 19:39:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: not enough
911 2013-01-21 19:39:59 <gavinandresen> Ok, running git HEAD -testnet sync, Windows XP, took 170 seconds and 58MB memory.
912 2013-01-21 19:40:08 <gmaxwell> That also worth worrying aboutâ as it's not hard to get a node to >2gb of vm. (changing allocators to tcmalloc helps a good bit though, but I'd rather just figure out the causes and fix them before pulling out that hammer)
913 2013-01-21 19:41:04 <gavinandresen> I'm running git HEAD real network sync on the same VM while I work on getting a working build of the leveldb1.7 native windows port built
914 2013-01-21 19:41:35 swappermall has joined
915 2013-01-21 19:42:55 <sipa> gmaxwell, gavinandresen: one "obvious" patch i was trying yesterday (which changed a vector copy + destroy into a swap -- making it 0 heap load in theory instead of alloc + destroy), and it consistently slowed things down
916 2013-01-21 19:43:01 <sipa> i haven't figured it out
917 2013-01-21 19:47:37 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
918 2013-01-21 19:49:01 _flow_ has joined
919 2013-01-21 19:51:31 <sipa> it really makes no sense
920 2013-01-21 19:55:14 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: actually ~12 hours of sleep, first time that's happened in a decade probably :)
921 2013-01-21 19:55:16 <jgarzik> sipa: hehe
922 2013-01-21 20:12:55 copumpkin has quit ()
923 2013-01-21 20:13:33 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
924 2013-01-21 20:14:15 copumpkin has joined
925 2013-01-21 20:27:08 Descry has joined
926 2013-01-21 20:28:29 owowo has joined
927 2013-01-21 20:32:54 juchmis has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
928 2013-01-21 20:34:15 luke-jr_ has joined
929 2013-01-21 20:34:22 Luke-Jr has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
930 2013-01-21 20:40:17 <TD> one thing i wonder is whether it'd be worth making bitcoin use boehm gc
931 2013-01-21 20:40:42 <TD> there aren't a whole lot of explicit pointers in it, type annotation might even be feasible and i think the GC can even be compacting in such a mode.
932 2013-01-21 20:40:45 spaz926 has joined
933 2013-01-21 20:41:17 spaz926 has quit (Changing host)
934 2013-01-21 20:41:17 spaz926 has joined
935 2013-01-21 20:42:44 rdymac has joined
936 2013-01-21 20:43:14 <rdymac> Anyone with access to the Bitcoin.it/wiki could help with the Electrum/Translation page? Just need to write a message for users
937 2013-01-21 20:47:47 safra has quit (Quit: Leaving)
938 2013-01-21 20:48:58 Descry has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
939 2013-01-21 20:49:54 swappermall_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
940 2013-01-21 20:52:49 amiller_ has quit (Excess Flood)
941 2013-01-21 20:53:56 <luke-jr_> rdymac: ?
942 2013-01-21 20:54:07 luke-jr_ is now known as Luke-Jr
943 2013-01-21 20:54:34 TD_ has joined
944 2013-01-21 20:54:52 <Luke-Jr> is it just me, or is freenode sucking lately?
945 2013-01-21 20:58:20 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
946 2013-01-21 20:58:21 TD_ is now known as TD
947 2013-01-21 20:59:12 Prattler has joined
948 2013-01-21 20:59:56 TD_ has joined
949 2013-01-21 21:00:06 legitnick1 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
950 2013-01-21 21:01:07 Guest47451 has joined
951 2013-01-21 21:03:26 TD has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
952 2013-01-21 21:03:26 TD_ is now known as TD
953 2013-01-21 21:05:00 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
954 2013-01-21 21:20:29 spaz926 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
955 2013-01-21 21:24:13 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
956 2013-01-21 21:24:38 rdymac has joined
957 2013-01-21 21:30:29 <craig> anyone buying
958 2013-01-21 21:30:46 <sipa> see #bitcoin-otc
959 2013-01-21 21:31:02 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
960 2013-01-21 21:34:40 Goonie has joined
961 2013-01-21 21:38:28 mykhal has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
962 2013-01-21 21:38:28 darkee has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
963 2013-01-21 21:44:52 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
964 2013-01-21 21:45:18 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
965 2013-01-21 21:48:32 rdymac has joined
966 2013-01-21 21:48:39 mykhal has joined
967 2013-01-21 21:50:56 Goonie has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
968 2013-01-21 21:51:00 copumpkin has quit ()
969 2013-01-21 21:51:35 agricocb has joined
970 2013-01-21 21:52:40 copumpkin has joined
971 2013-01-21 21:53:37 brocktice has joined
972 2013-01-21 21:54:18 BTCOxygen has joined
973 2013-01-21 21:54:39 spaz926 has joined
974 2013-01-21 21:55:32 spaz926 has quit (Client Quit)
975 2013-01-21 21:57:03 nimdAHK has joined
976 2013-01-21 21:57:42 owowo has joined
977 2013-01-21 21:59:53 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
978 2013-01-21 22:01:01 brocktice has quit (Quit: leaving)
979 2013-01-21 22:01:19 brocktice has joined
980 2013-01-21 22:03:43 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
981 2013-01-21 22:07:17 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
982 2013-01-21 22:08:08 testnode9 has joined
983 2013-01-21 22:08:14 D34TH has quit (Quit: Leaving)
984 2013-01-21 22:14:47 nimdAHK_ has joined
985 2013-01-21 22:16:50 nimdAHK has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
986 2013-01-21 22:17:47 darkee has joined
987 2013-01-21 22:18:56 nimdAHK_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
988 2013-01-21 22:21:04 D34TH has joined
989 2013-01-21 22:21:04 D34TH has quit (Changing host)
990 2013-01-21 22:21:04 D34TH has joined
991 2013-01-21 22:24:49 nimdAHK has joined
992 2013-01-21 22:30:00 nimdAHK_ has joined
993 2013-01-21 22:30:36 nimdAHK has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
994 2013-01-21 22:31:40 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
995 2013-01-21 22:33:18 osmosis has joined
996 2013-01-21 22:38:51 testnode9_ has joined
997 2013-01-21 22:38:51 testnode9_ has quit (Client Quit)
998 2013-01-21 22:42:40 nimdAHK_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
999 2013-01-21 22:46:57 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1000 2013-01-21 22:51:20 Habbie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1001 2013-01-21 22:51:29 Habbie has joined
1002 2013-01-21 22:58:20 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1003 2013-01-21 22:59:33 owowo has joined
1004 2013-01-21 23:00:30 twixed has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1005 2013-01-21 23:03:26 MrTiggr has joined
1006 2013-01-21 23:03:38 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1007 2013-01-21 23:05:23 rng29a has joined
1008 2013-01-21 23:05:23 _sgstair has joined
1009 2013-01-21 23:05:24 sgstair has quit (Disconnected by services)
1010 2013-01-21 23:05:27 _sgstair is now known as sgstair
1011 2013-01-21 23:06:28 b4epoche has joined
1012 2013-01-21 23:07:21 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1013 2013-01-21 23:07:49 k0rx has joined
1014 2013-01-21 23:08:03 copumpkin has joined
1015 2013-01-21 23:11:12 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1016 2013-01-21 23:13:33 craig has quit (Disconnected by services)
1017 2013-01-21 23:20:37 ThomasV_ has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1018 2013-01-21 23:23:34 one_zero has joined
1019 2013-01-21 23:25:09 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1020 2013-01-21 23:25:53 rng29a has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1021 2013-01-21 23:27:02 porquilho has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1022 2013-01-21 23:27:18 porquilho has joined
1023 2013-01-21 23:29:57 Toresh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1024 2013-01-21 23:33:36 Guest1734 has joined
1025 2013-01-21 23:34:44 Toresh has joined
1026 2013-01-21 23:35:29 Guest1734 is now known as scottyt
1027 2013-01-21 23:37:11 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1028 2013-01-21 23:37:14 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1029 2013-01-21 23:40:28 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1030 2013-01-21 23:40:53 scottyt has quit ()
1031 2013-01-21 23:42:02 slush has joined
1032 2013-01-21 23:43:53 _sgstair has joined
1033 2013-01-21 23:43:54 sgstair has quit (Disconnected by services)
1034 2013-01-21 23:43:55 _sgstair is now known as sgstair
1035 2013-01-21 23:48:37 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1036 2013-01-21 23:48:39 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1037 2013-01-21 23:48:48 bitnumus has joined
1038 2013-01-21 23:49:11 copumpkin has joined
1039 2013-01-21 23:49:13 rdymac has joined
1040 2013-01-21 23:51:40 RBecker is now known as mrpotatohead
1041 2013-01-21 23:51:46 mrpotatohead is now known as RBecker
1042 2013-01-21 23:52:19 da2ce7 has joined
1043 2013-01-21 23:52:45 swappermall_ has joined
1044 2013-01-21 23:53:13 toffoo has joined
1045 2013-01-21 23:55:06 PhantomSpark has joined
1046 2013-01-21 23:56:14 DJHenjin__ has left ()