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 42 2013-01-26 03:09:43 <Shinra> hey guys
 43 2013-01-26 03:10:56 <Shinra> anyone on?
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 46 2013-01-26 03:28:27 <HM> this Facebook hacker cup is fun
 47 2013-01-26 03:31:55 <HM> https://www.facebook.com/hackercup/problems.php?round=185564241586420
 48 2013-01-26 03:32:03 <HM> might interest some here, even though it's offtopic
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165 2013-01-26 10:05:06 <BTCOxygen> !seen jgarzik
166 2013-01-26 10:05:06 <gribble> jgarzik was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 13 hours, 36 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: * jgarzik glares at grau :)
167 2013-01-26 10:05:27 Guest68390 has quit (Changing host)
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169 2013-01-26 10:05:29 Guest68390 is now known as jgarzik
170 2013-01-26 10:05:39 <BTCOxygen> jgarzik: hi
171 2013-01-26 10:05:56 <BTCOxygen> jgarzik: Did you get your Avalon ASIC ?
172 2013-01-26 10:06:23 <jgarzik> jgarzik ASIC arrival FAQ of the day, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137534.msg1478626#msg1478626
173 2013-01-26 10:07:58 <BTCOxygen> jgarzik: What do you plan to do with your ASIC once they arrive ?
174 2013-01-26 10:08:13 <BTCOxygen> SOLO mine or POOL mine ?
175 2013-01-26 10:09:25 <jgarzik> I plan to use my ASIC to rule this land.  And I will call it... This Land.
176 2013-01-26 10:11:13 <BTCOxygen> jgarzik: lol
177 2013-01-26 10:11:28 <BTCOxygen> jgarzik: How many GH/s in total have you ordered ?
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185 2013-01-26 10:27:57 <BTCOxygen> jgarzik: How many GH/s in total have you ordered ?
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205 2013-01-26 12:16:27 <JyZyXEL> does blockchain have to be deleted when upgrading from 0.6.2 to 0.7.2 to get the new database format?
206 2013-01-26 12:23:22 <JyZyXEL> the synchronization is so insanely slow im thinking something has to be wrong here
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208 2013-01-26 12:29:58 <sipa> JyZyXEL: no changes between 0.6.x and 0.7.x
209 2013-01-26 12:30:07 <sipa> to the block chain format
210 2013-01-26 12:30:25 <JyZyXEL> well something was supposed to be faster
211 2013-01-26 12:30:36 <sipa> yes, a bit
212 2013-01-26 12:30:39 <JyZyXEL> im not sure if it is but its still really slow
213 2013-01-26 12:30:49 <sipa> how slow?
214 2013-01-26 12:31:05 <JyZyXEL> what command can i use to get performance information?
215 2013-01-26 12:31:47 <sipa> no such command really... but you can see the number of blocks per second, or seconds per block or so
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217 2013-01-26 12:32:25 <JyZyXEL> GUI only shows number of blocks remaining, no other peformance information
218 2013-01-26 12:32:52 <sipa> well how fast does that change?
219 2013-01-26 12:32:55 <JyZyXEL> im thinking it must then be accesible trough the console
220 2013-01-26 12:33:48 <sipa> not really, no
221 2013-01-26 12:34:12 <sipa> i just want to get an idea of what you call slow
222 2013-01-26 12:34:35 <JyZyXEL> its about 5 blocks in one minute
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224 2013-01-26 12:35:51 <CodeShark> JyZyXEL: you can check the debug.log file to follow what's happening
225 2013-01-26 12:35:52 <JyZyXEL> its silly that no one though to add any sort of metrics for the syncronization
226 2013-01-26 12:36:11 <CodeShark> tail -f <datadir>/debug.log
227 2013-01-26 12:36:14 <sipa> JyZyXEL: 0.8 has such metrics
228 2013-01-26 12:36:24 <JyZyXEL> nice
229 2013-01-26 12:36:28 <sipa> and it should be a lot faster too
230 2013-01-26 12:36:49 <sipa> how many blocks remaining?
231 2013-01-26 12:36:55 <JyZyXEL> 1000
232 2013-01-26 12:37:09 <JyZyXEL> it was 300 at one point but jumped to 2000
233 2013-01-26 12:37:20 <JyZyXEL> i don't know how many times it has jumped like that
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235 2013-01-26 12:39:06 <JyZyXEL> with this rate, if i started from an empty block chain, it would take me 30 days to get the full blockchain
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238 2013-01-26 12:40:06 <JyZyXEL> i think i started at around 90% and i've been at it for days
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240 2013-01-26 12:40:51 <JyZyXEL> not constantly though because the load on the hard drives makes so much audible noise and makes the system a bit sluggish
241 2013-01-26 12:41:09 <sipa> are you interested in trying a 0.8 prerelease?
242 2013-01-26 12:41:27 <JyZyXEL> would i need to start from the beginning?
243 2013-01-26 12:41:31 <CodeShark> no
244 2013-01-26 12:41:56 <sipa> actually, yes
245 2013-01-26 12:42:13 <sipa> but it imports the blocks you already have from disk
246 2013-01-26 12:42:14 <CodeShark> oh, the bdb -> leveldb was between 0.7 and the current HEAD?
247 2013-01-26 12:42:29 <sipa> yes, and ultraprune as well
248 2013-01-26 12:43:22 <CodeShark> yeah, ditch 0.7.2, JyZyXEL :)
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250 2013-01-26 12:43:54 <sipa> 0.8 isn't released yet, and i don't recommend it for anything but testing
251 2013-01-26 12:44:22 <JyZyXEL> most people are using 0.7.2 though?
252 2013-01-26 12:44:30 <sipa> but depending on the hardware, it shouldn't take more than a few hours to sync from scratch
253 2013-01-26 12:44:37 <JyZyXEL> one would think such slowness would be a big issue?
254 2013-01-26 12:44:57 <sipa> yes, but it requires a very fundamental change to improve that
255 2013-01-26 12:45:18 <sipa> and the stakes are high when there's a bug
256 2013-01-26 12:45:22 <JyZyXEL> sipa: well the experience for me so far has been slower by multiple orders of magnitude
257 2013-01-26 12:45:47 <sipa> i know, i'm talking about 0.8
258 2013-01-26 12:46:59 <sipa> what hardware are you on?
259 2013-01-26 12:47:07 <JyZyXEL> i5-750
260 2013-01-26 12:47:31 <sipa> ram/disk?
261 2013-01-26 12:47:55 <JyZyXEL> 4GB and 2x1TB Raid-1
262 2013-01-26 12:48:32 <sipa> i wonder if the raid impacts disk write latency
263 2013-01-26 12:48:46 <JyZyXEL> not by much
264 2013-01-26 12:48:53 <JyZyXEL> the full disk encryption has a bigger hit
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266 2013-01-26 12:49:05 <sipa> oh, with disk encryption
267 2013-01-26 12:49:57 <sipa> i'm not sure why, but iirc it kills disk i/o latency
268 2013-01-26 12:50:26 <sipa> and since 0.7 does (excessively) much shnchronous i/o, it slows tgings down a lot
269 2013-01-26 12:50:48 <JyZyXEL> whats the normal sync speed for 0.7?
270 2013-01-26 12:51:13 <sipa> depends a lot on hardware
271 2013-01-26 12:51:23 <sipa> in a ram drive, pretty fast
272 2013-01-26 12:51:41 <sipa> other than that, it's limited by disk speed really
273 2013-01-26 12:51:42 <JyZyXEL> yeah but for a recent dekstop machine similar to mine
274 2013-01-26 12:53:19 <sipa> i can't say
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276 2013-01-26 12:53:45 <sipa> i've heen working on and using 0.8 code for almost half a year i think
277 2013-01-26 12:53:58 rdymac has joined
278 2013-01-26 12:54:10 <sipa> and even there the reported speeds vary between minutes and hours
279 2013-01-26 12:56:09 finway has joined
280 2013-01-26 12:56:27 <finway> What's the data struture in /coins ?
281 2013-01-26 12:56:38 <finway> ('c\x01(i\xda\xb5\xaa\xb8\xa1\x0275O\xa1r\xb0n\xfcrb\x14\xbc\x16\xdb\x1d\xbb\x80sA\xb6\xe8\x1d\xf9', '\x01\x032\x05\xa6\xd4\x92\x8d\x89\xd5\x14\x1d\xf9?\xdf\x05\x8e7\xcf<x\x9e<"\xeb\xad\xba7,\x0ca\xe8#\x03\x14\xae\x80\xbem')
282 2013-01-26 12:57:05 <finway> What does this mean?
283 2013-01-26 12:58:38 <sipa> finway: the key is 'c' + 32-byte transaction id
284 2013-01-26 12:58:41 <JyZyXEL> i wish i had some v0.7 synchronization statistics to compare with
285 2013-01-26 12:59:12 <sipa> finway: for the value, see class CCoins in main.h
286 2013-01-26 12:59:37 <JyZyXEL> though its quite obvious 5 blocks / minute is way slower than intended
287 2013-01-26 13:00:23 <JyZyXEL> there would be hardly any new users if they have to wait a month for their copy of the blockchain
288 2013-01-26 13:01:06 <gmaxwell> 04:32 < sipa> i'm not sure why, but iirc it kills disk i/o latency
289 2013-01-26 13:01:10 <finway> thankssipa
290 2013-01-26 13:01:13 <gmaxwell> Truecrypt does— but linux dmcrypt doesn't.
291 2013-01-26 13:02:10 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: I was able to reproduce that issue of a change address matching a sending address when two instances of the same wallet are used on the master branch: http://blockchain.info/tx/2ff65a89b87e2ed43d5156c6875e62ef0c3ff30996320d79c4e9cd907c4a255d
292 2013-01-26 13:02:16 <gmaxwell> truecrypt does because it does multiple sync writes for every write to avoid blocks getting torn when writing because it doesn't know for sure how its blocks line up with disk sectors.
293 2013-01-26 13:02:37 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: sweet, how did you do that? (also! test with testnet!)
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295 2013-01-26 13:03:26 <sipa> JyZyXEL: on my own laptop, i see several blocks per second at least on recent code
296 2013-01-26 13:03:50 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: it _should_ retire the address from the pool when it sees that transaction.
297 2013-01-26 13:03:55 <sipa> with parallel signature checking even closer to 10 blocks/s iirc
298 2013-01-26 13:03:58 <CodeShark> yes, agreed, gmaxwell
299 2013-01-26 13:04:24 <CodeShark> the correct behavior would be for it to look through the pool each time it sees a transaction and remove the address from the pool
300 2013-01-26 13:04:25 <sipa> gmaxwell: i know of no code that does that, but for bip32 wallets it certainly should get that
301 2013-01-26 13:05:06 <sipa> no response from hal, btw :(
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304 2013-01-26 13:06:17 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: it should probably also retire all intermediate addresses..
305 2013-01-26 13:06:19 <JyZyXEL> im not sure if the performance hit could be so massive
306 2013-01-26 13:06:29 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: yes
307 2013-01-26 13:06:54 <gmaxwell> JyZyXEL: from truecrypt? That much is well known (and not unique to bitcoin— look up random write numbers for it)
308 2013-01-26 13:06:56 <sipa> JyZyXEL: as said, 0.7 uses bdb for its database, which requires tons of synchronous disk writes
309 2013-01-26 13:07:24 <sipa> so much thay it is easily the limiting factor
310 2013-01-26 13:07:42 <sipa> 0.8 uses leveldb which does less i/o and mostly sequential
311 2013-01-26 13:07:47 <JyZyXEL> i never realized TC can have such a giantic effect
312 2013-01-26 13:08:02 <sipa> and uses a different database layout that needs less storage
313 2013-01-26 13:08:16 <gmaxwell> The TC effect is mostly on random writes.. reads are not really impacted.
314 2013-01-26 13:08:26 <sipa> and it caches changes in memory and writes them in bulk
315 2013-01-26 13:08:37 <gmaxwell> TC suffers because its a block device on a file system, I guess.
316 2013-01-26 13:09:03 <JyZyXEL> hmm so i guess thats why it doesn't show up really bad in normal use
317 2013-01-26 13:09:23 <JyZyXEL> i guess its time to go SSD
318 2013-01-26 13:09:37 <sipa> bitcoin is quite a non-usual load for consumer hardware
319 2013-01-26 13:10:01 <CodeShark> I like the idea of having two separate key pools: one for change addresses, the other for receiving addresses
320 2013-01-26 13:10:16 <sipa> i doubt many people maintain >GiB databases on their home computer
321 2013-01-26 13:10:24 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yea, bip32 gets you that.
322 2013-01-26 13:10:28 <CodeShark> right
323 2013-01-26 13:11:28 <CodeShark> as it is right now, it's a little problematic - if another instance of the wallet sends change, there's really no way for the first instance to know whether it is change or whether the user deliberately sent to that address
324 2013-01-26 13:12:23 <CodeShark> if the change addresses could never show up when you call getnewaddress, it wouldn't be an issue
325 2013-01-26 13:12:44 <CodeShark> (unless the user decided to look in wallet.dat directly)
326 2013-01-26 13:13:41 <CodeShark> wallet synchronization issues are far more serious than just the issue of a change address being reused
327 2013-01-26 13:13:53 <CodeShark> in fact, the change reuse issue is arguably one of the lesser issues :)
328 2013-01-26 13:14:15 <gmaxwell> yea, but most of them are not solvable. (e.g. account mapping)
329 2013-01-26 13:15:13 <CodeShark> account mapping could be solved by separating the account mapping stuff from the keystore entirely and letting the user sync the accounts by storing them somewhere in the cloud
330 2013-01-26 13:16:22 <CodeShark> but without deterministic wallets, there's still a key pool divergence issue
331 2013-01-26 13:17:38 Diapolo has joined
332 2013-01-26 13:18:08 <CodeShark> and merging pseudorandom keystores doesn't sound like a very elegant solution
333 2013-01-26 13:18:19 denisx has joined
334 2013-01-26 13:19:43 <CodeShark> it would be best to reduce the amount of exchanging of private keys as much as possible
335 2013-01-26 13:20:26 <CodeShark> compromised account mappings aren't as serious as compromised private keys
336 2013-01-26 13:20:37 <CodeShark> in most instances :)
337 2013-01-26 13:21:47 <CodeShark> but I suppose even with random keys, we could support a merge operation...but we're also giving users plenty of opportunities to shoot themselves in the foot
338 2013-01-26 13:23:59 <CodeShark> sipa: so you don't have any other channels through which to try to contact hal or find out what his situation is like?
339 2013-01-26 13:25:08 finway has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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341 2013-01-26 13:26:33 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: We know in general what his situation is like, and it implies long communication times.
342 2013-01-26 13:26:49 <sipa> CodeShark: first time i mailed him, i got an answer within a day or two
343 2013-01-26 13:26:57 <sipa> after that, nothing
344 2013-01-26 13:27:06 <CodeShark> sipa: when was the first time you mailed him?
345 2013-01-26 13:29:00 <sipa> december 8th
346 2013-01-26 13:29:27 <gmaxwell> I would imagine that there is some level of nagging that is optimal for his wellbeing. Keep him aware that there are people out here who need him, without flooding him with I/O he has a hard time keeping up with.
347 2013-01-26 13:31:35 daybyter has joined
348 2013-01-26 13:32:10 <CodeShark> I hope he's ok. I don't think we should be solely relying on him to move forward with this, though.
349 2013-01-26 13:32:25 <gmaxwell> Well, we won't.
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356 2013-01-26 14:02:43 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: another simpler example of the change address reuse issue I just did: http://blockchain.info/tx/270915c405dab1a97668f190e7509a2049c12ff3060f275a3b110379af363a57
357 2013-01-26 14:05:05 <CodeShark> steps to produce it: 1) start bitcoind with no wallet.dat file and let it create one with at least several addresses in its pool (I used 100). 2) stop bitcoind. 3) make a copy of wallet.dat. 4) restart bitcoind, getnewaddress, send to it from another wallet, wait for it to confirm. 5) stop bitcoind. 6) swap the two wallet files. 7) restart bitcoind with -rescan. 8) send to another wallet an amount that will require
358 2013-01-26 14:05:05 <CodeShark> change.
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386 2013-01-26 16:50:33 <Eliel> there's a question on reddit about a transaction that's been waiting for confirmation for over 12 hours already. It even has the standard fee in it. http://blockchain.info/tx/504b21f2eee449a867dcc4e18b307e8da68ead68164603068aca01da9ae1cdfc
387 2013-01-26 16:50:57 BlackPrapor has quit (Client Quit)
388 2013-01-26 16:50:59 <Eliel> I can't figure out why this transaction would end up not being confirmed for this long.
389 2013-01-26 16:53:33 rdymac has joined
390 2013-01-26 16:55:09 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: that one depends on an unconfirmed txn
391 2013-01-26 16:55:11 <CodeShark> either it conflicts with another transaction or it didn't propagate very widely
392 2013-01-26 16:55:24 <CodeShark> or it depends on a transaction that conflicts
393 2013-01-26 16:56:07 ThomasV has joined
394 2013-01-26 16:56:36 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: how did they send that?
395 2013-01-26 16:57:20 <Eliel> it's apparently from coinbase.
396 2013-01-26 16:57:23 <CodeShark> looks like the result of a long chain of unconfirmed transactions
397 2013-01-26 16:57:30 <Luke-Jr> sigh
398 2013-01-26 16:57:31 <Eliel> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/17bhkn/coinbase_transaction_still_has_not_confirmed/
399 2013-01-26 16:57:35 <CodeShark> heh
400 2013-01-26 16:57:41 <ThomasV> how does https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png generalize to op_checkmultisig?
401 2013-01-26 16:58:00 <ThomasV> etotheipi_: ^^
402 2013-01-26 16:59:14 <ThomasV> more precisely, how do I build the subscript for signing?
403 2013-01-26 16:59:32 <sipa> ThomasV: exactly the same way
404 2013-01-26 17:00:00 <sipa> as the input being signed is erased entirely before signing, the actual script there doesn't matter
405 2013-01-26 17:00:05 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: \http://blockchain.info/tx/0743aa0cf0241c4138d9ff9bdec6262d0a80c5b2dd91696731351ce895e0dac8
406 2013-01-26 17:00:35 <ThomasV> sipa: what is erased entirely?
407 2013-01-26 17:00:42 <sipa> ThomasV: the scriptSig
408 2013-01-26 17:01:39 <sipa> ThomasV: step 7
409 2013-01-26 17:01:48 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: want me to CC you to an email to Brian?
410 2013-01-26 17:02:05 <Eliel> Luke-Jr: sure, I'm interested in seeing the conversation.
411 2013-01-26 17:02:14 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: PM me your email ;)
412 2013-01-26 17:02:20 <Luke-Jr> ^ anyone else who wants CC
413 2013-01-26 17:02:43 <sipa> brian?
414 2013-01-26 17:02:44 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: got a link to the reddit btw?
415 2013-01-26 17:02:47 <Luke-Jr> sipa: Coinbase guy
416 2013-01-26 17:02:50 <sipa> ah
417 2013-01-26 17:02:53 <Eliel> I pasted it above already
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419 2013-01-26 17:03:06 <Luke-Jr> ah, was analyzing it while you posted that :P
420 2013-01-26 17:03:25 <ThomasV> sipa: my question is more concerning step 8.. is the subscript something like [op_hash106,  push 20_bytes,  op_equal] ?
421 2013-01-26 17:04:18 <sipa> ThomasV: step 8 is just copying the output script of the txout being spent
422 2013-01-26 17:04:25 <sipa> ThomasV: i dislike the term 'subscript'
423 2013-01-26 17:04:53 <ThomasV> I dislike it too, but I've been trying to do that for hours, no success :P
424 2013-01-26 17:05:25 da2ce7_d has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
425 2013-01-26 17:05:35 <ThomasV> I am trying to verify the signature manually, for this tx: http://blockchain.info/tx-index/30888901
426 2013-01-26 17:06:13 <ThomasV> so try to build the string to sign, and to check the signatures against the sigs in that tx
427 2013-01-26 17:07:14 <ThomasV> sipa: this is the string I assume should be verified for that tx: 0100000001aca7f3b45654c230e0886a57fb988c3044ef5e8f7f39726d305c61d5e818903c0000000017a914f815b036d9bbbce5e9f2a00abd1bf3dc91e9551087ffffffff0140420f00000000001976a914ae56b4db13554d321c402db3961187aed1bbed5b88ac0000000001000000
428 2013-01-26 17:08:34 <sipa> ThomasV: you didn't forget to append the hashtype?
429 2013-01-26 17:08:48 <ThomasV> no, maybe the chat cut it
430 2013-01-26 17:08:58 <ThomasV> it ends with 01000000
431 2013-01-26 17:09:14 <sipa> ah, my screen session is messed up
432 2013-01-26 17:09:21 <sipa> i'll have a look later, gtg now
433 2013-01-26 17:09:30 <ThomasV> ok thanks
434 2013-01-26 17:11:43 <Luke-Jr> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/17bhkn/coinbase_transaction_still_has_not_confirmed/c83za7g fwiw
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436 2013-01-26 17:12:29 <CodeShark> yeah, tx 0743aa0cf0241c4138d9ff9bdec6262d0a80c5b2dd91696731351ce895e0dac8 is the problem
437 2013-01-26 17:13:33 <Luke-Jr> the way I see it, considering it will be confirmed by Eligius eventually, the fee system is working as intended here
438 2013-01-26 17:13:38 <CodeShark> my nodes haven't even seen it
439 2013-01-26 17:13:58 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: odd, the 0.0005 BTC fee *should* have been enough to get it relayed
440 2013-01-26 17:14:22 <CodeShark> oh wait...nvm
441 2013-01-26 17:14:28 <CodeShark> http://blockhawk.net/bitcoin/tx/0743aa0cf0241c4138d9ff9bdec6262d0a80c5b2dd91696731351ce895e0dac8
442 2013-01-26 17:15:12 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: you know B⃦ is standard Unicode, right? :P
443 2013-01-26 17:15:14 LargoG has joined
444 2013-01-26 17:15:55 <CodeShark> beh, my text editors don't like it very much so it's easier to just use &#3647;
445 2013-01-26 17:16:46 <CodeShark> so why did this transaction not confirm yet?
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451 2013-01-26 17:25:54 <jeremias> http://blockchain.info/tx/604192720889218c6767a96c74315c863b80a0a8d883d6bf999d472c85b45960
452 2013-01-26 17:26:07 <jeremias> could there be a reason why this transaction is not included to block chain?
453 2013-01-26 17:32:42 <Luke-Jr> jeremias: is it from Coinbase?
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466 2013-01-26 17:58:55 <jeremias> Luke-Jr: yeah it was from the coinbase
467 2013-01-26 17:59:25 <Luke-Jr> jeremias: seems Coinbase has a bug; I've contacted them about it
468 2013-01-26 17:59:35 <jeremias> ok, good to know, thanks
469 2013-01-26 17:59:55 <lianj> his tx is confirmed now though
470 2013-01-26 18:00:19 <Luke-Jr> yeah, looks like Coinbase transactions are reliant on Eligius for now :P
471 2013-01-26 18:00:28 <sipa> how so?
472 2013-01-26 18:00:42 <Luke-Jr> sipa: they're not paying fees meeting other pools/miners' rules
473 2013-01-26 18:00:47 <sipa> ic
474 2013-01-26 18:01:45 <Luke-Jr> and only Eligius is running the child-pays-for-parent code
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483 2013-01-26 18:20:57 <CodeShark> really? other miners are not doing child-pays-for-parent?
484 2013-01-26 18:21:41 <CodeShark> I would think that's super important in how you prioritize transactions
485 2013-01-26 18:21:45 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: I'm not aware of many, at least
486 2013-01-26 18:22:01 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: it's not merged in mainline yet
487 2013-01-26 18:22:22 <CodeShark> so you're saying that if there's a transaction that pays no fee, then there's another transaction depending on it that pays an enormous fee, most miners will simply ignore it?
488 2013-01-26 18:22:37 <Luke-Jr> yes
489 2013-01-26 18:22:55 <CodeShark> lol
490 2013-01-26 18:23:28 <CodeShark> I would think that the priority calculation is about maximizing the fee to size ratio
491 2013-01-26 18:23:39 <Luke-Jr> it is
492 2013-01-26 18:23:50 <Luke-Jr> but it doesn't consider dependencies w/o the patch
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495 2013-01-26 18:24:55 <CodeShark> you sort transactions by fee, regardless of size - then you recurse back on the inputs
496 2013-01-26 18:24:59 <sipa> Luke-Jr: regarding that, how up-to-date is #1647?
497 2013-01-26 18:25:12 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i must admit i never managed to go through the code changes involved
498 2013-01-26 18:25:23 <Luke-Jr> sipa: should be completely up to date
499 2013-01-26 18:26:32 <Luke-Jr> sipa: although admittedly, it is NOT the exact code running on Eligius
500 2013-01-26 18:26:54 <Luke-Jr> sipa: Eligius is still using 0.6.0.x-based code, without Gavin's sort-by-fee change stuff
501 2013-01-26 18:27:38 <Luke-Jr> so one of these days, I'll have to try yet again to make master work…
502 2013-01-26 18:29:18 <sipa> Luke-Jr: in case a parent and a child are detected
503 2013-01-26 18:29:37 <sipa> does the code try to just mine the parent in case parent+child fail priority checks?
504 2013-01-26 18:30:45 <Luke-Jr> sipa: basically, it just includes any unconfirmed parents in the child's calculations
505 2013-01-26 18:30:58 <sipa> that's not an answer to my question :)
506 2013-01-26 18:31:15 <Luke-Jr> I didn't understand the question :P
507 2013-01-26 18:31:28 <sipa> imagine you have a parent and a child in your mempool
508 2013-01-26 18:31:54 <sipa> so at some point you try to include the combination
509 2013-01-26 18:32:17 <sipa> but this fails the priority checks
510 2013-01-26 18:32:24 <sipa> so it isn't included
511 2013-01-26 18:32:32 <sipa> does it try to just mine the parent itself?
512 2013-01-26 18:32:42 <Luke-Jr> no, they're included only after it passes the priority checks
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514 2013-01-26 18:32:57 <sipa> still not an answer
515 2013-01-26 18:33:01 <Luke-Jr> together or not at all (unless the parent gets in independently)
516 2013-01-26 18:33:10 <sipa> ok
517 2013-01-26 18:33:45 <Luke-Jr> if there are multiple children, another one might include the parent, which can cause the first child to be reevaluated independently, as well
518 2013-01-26 18:35:28 <sipa> why does pmapInfoById need to be included in CTxInfo?
519 2013-01-26 18:35:33 <sipa> there is just one such map, no?
520 2013-01-26 18:35:40 t7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
521 2013-01-26 18:35:50 <Luke-Jr> sipa: one map per CreateBlock call
522 2013-01-26 18:36:41 <sipa> ok, sure, but from the scope of the CreateBlock call, every CTxInfo that it reaches will always point to its own mapInfoById?
523 2013-01-26 18:37:01 <Luke-Jr> yes
524 2013-01-26 18:37:23 <Luke-Jr> probably the whole code should be refactored so it maintains a list independent of CreateBlock calls, tbh
525 2013-01-26 18:37:38 <Luke-Jr> but that can be better done on its own, not trying to introduce a new functionality at the same time
526 2013-01-26 18:38:03 daybyter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
527 2013-01-26 18:38:08 <sipa> sure, that's something else
528 2013-01-26 18:38:31 <sipa> but independent from that, having CTxInfo entries that need to know which map they are part of seems very ugly
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532 2013-01-26 18:49:38 <CodeShark> where is this CreateBlock and CTxInfo code?
533 2013-01-26 18:50:00 <sipa> #1647
534 2013-01-26 18:50:20 <CodeShark> oh
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556 2013-01-26 20:17:32 <gavinandresen> I just made the patch for the 0-confirmation vulnerability public: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2223
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560 2013-01-26 20:22:43 <petertodd> testing it now
561 2013-01-26 20:23:29 <petertodd> FWIW: "far in the future" meant 7000 years when I attacked blockchain's mixer...
562 2013-01-26 20:31:20 BurtyB2 has joined
563 2013-01-26 20:32:05 <jgarzik> petertodd: meta: when addressing others in a github comment, use "@" in front of their nick
564 2013-01-26 20:32:22 <jgarzik> petertodd: e.g. "@jgarzik: your last comment was completely insane, sod off"
565 2013-01-26 20:32:47 <jgarzik> petertodd: github does a bit of highlighting and linking and notifications with '@'
566 2013-01-26 20:34:51 <petertodd> jgazik: thanks, I didn't know that. Where did I have a comment addressing someone? I'll try it out.
567 2013-01-26 20:34:56 BurtyBB has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
568 2013-01-26 20:36:55 <jgarzik> petertodd: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2160
569 2013-01-26 20:37:14 <jgarzik> petertodd: s/gavin:/@gavinandresen/ etc.
570 2013-01-26 20:38:17 <petertodd> ah right
571 2013-01-26 20:38:35 <petertodd> (I was hoping it was a comment to you, so I could edit it to say you're insane)
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573 2013-01-26 20:39:01 <sipa> you still can :p
574 2013-01-26 20:39:29 <petertodd> lol
575 2013-01-26 20:41:17 <petertodd> done
576 2013-01-26 20:43:41 quijibo has joined
577 2013-01-26 20:45:22 <petertodd> any suggestions on limiting memory usage for bitcoind? just noticed one I have on an ec2 micro instance died (512MiB)
578 2013-01-26 20:46:05 <petertodd> (0.7.2)
579 2013-01-26 20:46:46 <sipa> -maxconnections
580 2013-01-26 20:46:56 <sipa> network memory buffers tend to grow large
581 2013-01-26 20:47:58 <petertodd> thanks, I'll try that
582 2013-01-26 20:48:09 <petertodd> std::bad_alloc is almost certainly mem exhaustion right?
583 2013-01-26 20:48:24 <sipa> yes
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595 2013-01-26 22:24:32 <HM> my bitcoind instance runs on a VPS with 512MiB
596 2013-01-26 22:24:43 <HM> seems to gobble 300 MiB after a day or so
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599 2013-01-26 22:27:21 <gmaxwell> HM: you're probably not listening to inbound connections.
600 2013-01-26 22:27:42 MobGod has joined
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607 2013-01-26 22:32:45 <HM> gmaxwell: i have 98 connections atm
608 2013-01-26 22:32:57 <HM> inbound is definitely working
609 2013-01-26 22:33:07 <sipa> that's very impressive with only 300 MiB
610 2013-01-26 22:33:19 <HM> yeah well... there might be 100 GiB of swap
611 2013-01-26 22:33:21 <HM> i haven't checked
612 2013-01-26 22:35:10 <sipa> gavinandresen: any reason why excessive coinbase output value doesn't trigger DoS?
613 2013-01-26 22:35:18 <sipa> imho, it should
614 2013-01-26 22:35:32 <sipa> you can't do that accidentally
615 2013-01-26 22:35:49 Hashdog has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
616 2013-01-26 22:36:17 <gavinandresen> sipa: that seems right, I can't think of any reason NOT to DoS for a bad coinbase
617 2013-01-26 22:36:32 <petertodd> HM: is that 0.7 or 0.8?
618 2013-01-26 22:37:02 <sipa> gavinandresen: i'm working on a patch to improve dealing with errors during validation - i'll include a commit to change that
619 2013-01-26 22:37:40 <gavinandresen> sipa:  although… you might be able to use it as an oracle to determine whether a peer is a SPV node or full node.  There are probably much cheaper ways of finding that out, though
620 2013-01-26 22:37:56 <HM> petertodd: 0.7.2
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622 2013-01-26 22:38:34 <sipa> gavinandresen: like looking at their announced service bits?
623 2013-01-26 22:38:46 <gavinandresen> yeah….
624 2013-01-26 22:38:48 <CodeShark> isn't that what they're for? :)
625 2013-01-26 22:38:54 <sipa> it's not like we're trying to hide that information
626 2013-01-26 22:39:07 <HM> there is quite a bit of swap actually
627 2013-01-26 22:39:11 <HM> eesh
628 2013-01-26 22:39:36 <HM> oh well, drive space is cheap
629 2013-01-26 22:40:18 <sipa> using disk swap because an application using a too large network buffer seems silly though :p
630 2013-01-26 22:42:06 <petertodd> HM: ahh, yeah, I don't have swap on the machine I was having problems with (swap on ec2 can be expensive becuase there is a small fee per io req)
631 2013-01-26 22:42:38 <HM> yeah
632 2013-01-26 22:43:23 <HM> but the guys here will soon have it running on a Z80 :P
633 2013-01-26 22:44:00 <sipa> if you're willing to wait a century per block, fine
634 2013-01-26 22:46:40 <CodeShark> I'm working on an abacus implementation :p
635 2013-01-26 22:47:23 <CodeShark> ever do ECDSA validation on an abacus?
636 2013-01-26 22:47:23 <petertodd> I'm genetically engineering a breed of ants that implement a turing machine, so if any of you want to do a port...
637 2013-01-26 22:47:33 <CodeShark> lol
638 2013-01-26 22:47:46 <D34TH> CodeShark: just need fast fingers is all
639 2013-01-26 22:47:48 <CodeShark> I think such ants already exist - if we only knew how to program them
640 2013-01-26 22:47:54 <sipa> seems easy to port that to DragonFly BSD
641 2013-01-26 22:47:57 <CodeShark> something to do with pheromones
642 2013-01-26 22:48:37 <HM> http://alpha.zimage.com/~ant/antfarm/ants/ChipAnt2.jpg
643 2013-01-26 22:48:40 <CodeShark> and for our next lesson: implementing a NAND gate using a colony of ants and synthetic pheromones :p
644 2013-01-26 22:49:32 <petertodd> odd... 0.7.1 checks that txin's are unspent in the mempool on sendrawtransaction right? because I'm finding I can send a tx multiple times on my node without it getting rejected the second time, which is what usually happens
645 2013-01-26 22:50:03 <petertodd> for that matter, anyone else see afd97dd4fe30b35f1cc98a394562f7402fc7c4c4be0a01b5422af33cb9f8fcdf in their mempool?
646 2013-01-26 22:50:21 <gavinandresen> exactly the same transaction?  It'll notice it is in the mempool, say "OK", then rebroadcast it.
647 2013-01-26 22:50:44 <petertodd> exactly, ah, ok, I probably didn't notice that before
648 2013-01-26 22:50:47 <gavinandresen> that's a feature… otherwise there's no way to rebroadcast a transaction every once in a while
649 2013-01-26 22:50:55 <CodeShark> if you restart bitcoind, though, it will forget, right? so you can try to resend a conflicting transaction
650 2013-01-26 22:51:15 <petertodd> yeah, this is a non-conflicting one
651 2013-01-26 22:51:28 <gavinandresen> yes, or just call signrawtransaction twice and you'll get two different txids for the same inputs, and the second will be rejected
652 2013-01-26 22:52:16 <petertodd> gavin: the sign twice bit is probably why I didn't realize the rebroadcast behavior existed
653 2013-01-26 22:53:01 <gavinandresen> yeah, signing creates a random nonce, so different signature, so different txid every time
654 2013-01-26 22:54:17 <gavinandresen> CodeShark:  it will forget memory pool transactions that aren't to or from keys in your wallet.
655 2013-01-26 22:54:20 <petertodd> related: any plans on deriving the nonce from the tx+private key or something to avoid duplicating nonces?
656 2013-01-26 22:54:35 <CodeShark> gavinandresen: right - the wallet keeps its own transaction history that is separate from the mempool
657 2013-01-26 22:54:40 <sipa> petertodd: i wouldn't object, if some cryptographer can sign off on that
658 2013-01-26 22:54:45 <sipa> petertodd: i know reason why not, though
659 2013-01-26 22:54:56 yareyare has joined
660 2013-01-26 22:54:58 <sipa> *no
661 2013-01-26 22:55:42 <petertodd> sipa: could do the first implementation as tx+private key derivation mixed in with the existing random bytes mechanism
662 2013-01-26 22:55:42 <CodeShark> there needs to be a random number used to generate a signature
663 2013-01-26 22:55:59 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it's quite simple to accidentally make a block that's got the wrong coinbase output, sadly :/
664 2013-01-26 22:56:01 <petertodd> sipa: then either could fail
665 2013-01-26 22:56:30 <sipa> Luke-Jr: if you have a buggy implementation, i don't mind disconnecting you
666 2013-01-26 22:56:46 <sipa> Luke-Jr: what i want to avoid if you being able to broadcast data that will cause others to be disconnected
667 2013-01-26 22:57:14 <CodeShark> I suppose if you have a good hash function on the tx (without signature) you could derive the nonce from that
668 2013-01-26 22:57:20 <sipa> CodeShark: i don't think so - ECDSA is defined to use a random input, but there are very similar schemes which don't
669 2013-01-26 22:57:40 <sipa> CodeShark: and the nonce must definitely be based on the secret key
670 2013-01-26 22:57:54 <sipa> if not, any validator can know the nonce, and sign anything he wants
671 2013-01-26 22:58:02 <CodeShark> the problem with ECDSA and nonrandom inputs is if you have two signatures generated with the same random input it converts the difficult discrete log problem into a simple algebraic one
672 2013-01-26 22:58:06 <sipa> wait, it's not quite that bad
673 2013-01-26 22:58:34 <gavinandresen> The benefits of switching to a non-random nonce would have to be pretty darn big to convince me the risk is worth it
674 2013-01-26 22:59:32 <sipa> gavinandresen: not depending on the presence of good cryptographic randomness is a good reason, imho
675 2013-01-26 22:59:57 <Luke-Jr> sipa: could always XOR random with deterministic-pseudo-random..
676 2013-01-26 23:00:23 <petertodd> Granted, if the mechanisms proposed are just message and private key derivation, you might as well just add incoming tx's and your private keys to your entropy pool.
677 2013-01-26 23:00:42 <petertodd> Same effect, but much less prone to buggy implementations.
678 2013-01-26 23:00:54 <gavinandresen> sipa: oh, I can imagine switching to a new signature algorithm that doesn't need a good source of pseudo-randomness.  But, as you say, ECDSA is defined as "has a random nonce"
679 2013-01-26 23:01:48 <petertodd> gavin: We're lucky that it's perfectly ok for us to sign a given message exactly the same way every time.
680 2013-01-26 23:02:04 <petertodd> gavin: Better really, so the tx hashes are consistent.
681 2013-01-26 23:02:47 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
682 2013-01-26 23:03:52 <CodeShark> sha(sha(private key + tx without sigscripts))?
683 2013-01-26 23:03:55 <HM> what's an example of an algo that doesn't require a good PRN?
684 2013-01-26 23:04:38 <gavinandresen> petertodd: but an attacker could still create two versions of a transactions, with two different nonces…  so I think having them be consistent would, at best, lull people into writing code that ASSUMES that there is only one signature possible
685 2013-01-26 23:04:58 B0g4r7 has joined
686 2013-01-26 23:05:12 <CodeShark> right, gavinandresen makes a good point - in order for there to be any benefit, the consistency would have to be enforced...and there's no way to enforce it
687 2013-01-26 23:06:00 <CodeShark> without using some other signature scheme that does not require a random nonce :)
688 2013-01-26 23:06:02 <sipa> HM: Ed25519 is very similar to ECDSA, but uses a well-defined scheme to generate its nonce deterministically from public key, private key, and message
689 2013-01-26 23:06:21 <petertodd> gavin: true, lulling people is a problem, although once consistency is enforced it'd be good to have deterministic sigs
690 2013-01-26 23:06:44 <CodeShark> sipa: but is it possible to verify that the nonce is in fact correct without knowing the private key?
691 2013-01-26 23:06:59 <sipa> CodeShark: no
692 2013-01-26 23:07:04 <CodeShark> so then it's pointless :)
693 2013-01-26 23:07:07 <sipa> it's not
694 2013-01-26 23:07:12 <CodeShark> no way to enforce it
695 2013-01-26 23:07:17 <sipa> no need to enforce it
696 2013-01-26 23:08:02 <CodeShark> the point is that nodes could choose to ignore the nonce derivation scheme
697 2013-01-26 23:08:13 <CodeShark> and there'd be no way for other nodes to detect it
698 2013-01-26 23:08:17 <sipa> so, then they're hurting themself?
699 2013-01-26 23:09:09 <CodeShark> if you're only really interested in your own transactions consistently hashing and don't rely on this feature for security I suppose it could be useful
700 2013-01-26 23:10:51 <CodeShark> not really sure how useful this is in practice, though
701 2013-01-26 23:10:53 <sipa> gavin is right that it may cause people to assume there is only one signature possible
702 2013-01-26 23:11:10 <sipa> but that's not an inherent lack of security in the system
703 2013-01-26 23:11:28 <sipa> just one more way for people to screw up in implementations
704 2013-01-26 23:11:34 <CodeShark> yes
705 2013-01-26 23:11:38 <sipa> but so is depending on good randomness right now
706 2013-01-26 23:11:46 <sipa> (i.e., the bitcoincard people...)
707 2013-01-26 23:12:03 <CodeShark> good randomness is required for any crypto system
708 2013-01-26 23:12:19 <sipa> for many systems, not while signing
709 2013-01-26 23:12:29 <CodeShark> but you still need it to generate master keys and such
710 2013-01-26 23:12:44 <petertodd> sipa: note that the bitcoincard people said on the forums they understood that problem, and it was just that their test setup delibrately seeds the prng with a fixed vector
711 2013-01-26 23:13:04 <sipa> petertodd: oh, good
712 2013-01-26 23:13:09 <petertodd> CodeShark: yes, but in many applications you don't generate masters keys very often
713 2013-01-26 23:13:09 <sipa> i wasn't aware
714 2013-01-26 23:13:34 <sipa> petertodd: though i could have stolen some coins
715 2013-01-26 23:13:36 <sipa> in mainnet
716 2013-01-26 23:13:40 <HM> can't always trust the platform generator either
717 2013-01-26 23:13:41 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, still a bit sloppy to not disable that for a demo, but it was their money to lose
718 2013-01-26 23:14:16 <CodeShark> how much total was there to steal?
719 2013-01-26 23:14:32 <sipa> very little
720 2013-01-26 23:14:35 <petertodd> sipa: I've sent SIGHASH_NONE tx's out on mainnet before, and the txout has never been changed on me, yet...
721 2013-01-26 23:14:52 <sipa> CodeShark: maybe 1 BTC in total
722 2013-01-26 23:15:11 <sipa> (there were more vulnerable outputs, but those were already spent)
723 2013-01-26 23:15:36 <HM> SIGHASH_NONE is for offline transaction storage i take it
724 2013-01-26 23:15:46 <HM> like a blank cheque?
725 2013-01-26 23:16:01 <petertodd> HM: exactly, although offline transaction storage isn't the use-case
726 2013-01-26 23:16:17 <sipa> you still need a trustable miner to mine it for you
727 2013-01-26 23:16:25 <HM> well, not for immediate broadcast then
728 2013-01-26 23:16:29 <sipa> and be sure it won't get reverted afterwards
729 2013-01-26 23:16:49 <petertodd> SIGHASH_NONE + nLockTime has some interesting properties though
730 2013-01-26 23:17:10 <petertodd> I'm using that for the fidelity bond "throw away money" mechanism
731 2013-01-26 23:17:52 <HM> I was asking about this the other day. lock time is checked and signed, so it's safe to use on mainnet?
732 2013-01-26 23:18:14 <petertodd> HM: yes, it is signed
733 2013-01-26 23:18:56 <HM> tasty
734 2013-01-26 23:21:28 <petertodd> HM: speaking of, here, have fun: 01000000019da2ad399cd0b6319f0af3f4458380dff3d2524a1aa9cd2eb963bb5bad8509eb000000006b48304502204a22085f63e6cbbe5e02b03ef973fa71ecb636e58762cee2e1cb4d86cdb82144022100dfea0352c40e61a730b118ecf03704b9ebc8d140850333d1c83cc43aecb215a8822102aede205575263dfeb45226509a1d65c231893ade090fa9cd7eb71e90a4293c7dfffffffe0061540300
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739 2013-01-26 23:34:56 <HM> petertodd: i didn;'t think you felt that way
740 2013-01-26 23:35:33 <sipa> ?
741 2013-01-26 23:36:19 <HM> sipa: just exchanging steganographic love notes
742 2013-01-26 23:36:38 <sipa> great
743 2013-01-26 23:36:49 <petertodd> lol
744 2013-01-26 23:40:10 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
745 2013-01-26 23:40:11 <gmaxwell> I think SIGHASH_NONE is for "we added a new kind of fancy signature type in the future, and its softforking"
746 2013-01-26 23:40:11 <gribble> 218201
747 2013-01-26 23:41:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: maybe, but there are a lot of uses for it, just one of many
748 2013-01-26 23:41:51 <petertodd> for instance you can donate money by giving someone a encrypted, none-signed transaction
749 2013-01-26 23:42:00 <petertodd> (ideally none + anyonecanpay)
750 2013-01-26 23:43:26 valparaiso is now known as valparaiso_afk
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752 2013-01-26 23:43:40 <HM> why is so much bitcoind code in header files?
753 2013-01-26 23:44:01 <petertodd> HM: lets the compiler inline more stuff
754 2013-01-26 23:44:04 toffoo has quit ()
755 2013-01-26 23:44:12 <HM> uh hu
756 2013-01-26 23:44:23 <sipa> HM: some part has good reasons, but the major reason is historic
757 2013-01-26 23:44:55 <gmaxwell> HM: thats a very common C++ pattern.
758 2013-01-26 23:45:59 <HM> for template heavy code sure
759 2013-01-26 23:46:18 <sipa> most of our header code has no good reasons
760 2013-01-26 23:47:52 <gmaxwell> HM: even without templates "zomg inlining!"  (I'm not saying its a good reason, only that its common)
761 2013-01-26 23:48:48 RainbowDashh has joined
762 2013-01-26 23:49:00 <petertodd> gmaxwell: speaking of, is "compiled inlining", IE inlining stuff not in the header, supported yet on gcc? I seem to remember Microsoft's c++ compiler being able to do that
763 2013-01-26 23:49:04 <HM> funswitch-loops w00t
764 2013-01-26 23:49:41 <sipa> petertodd: -flto
765 2013-01-26 23:50:08 <HM> GNU binutils has a link optimiser, and there's -fwhole-program
766 2013-01-26 23:50:10 <HM> or something
767 2013-01-26 23:50:24 <gmaxwell> petertodd: sure, LTO.
768 2013-01-26 23:51:02 <petertodd> ah, cool, so you don't need inlined header stuff at all now? (modulo templates)
769 2013-01-26 23:51:17 <gmaxwell> Correct.
770 2013-01-26 23:51:40 <gmaxwell> At least in so far as if your have enough ram to LTO your whole program.
771 2013-01-26 23:52:41 <petertodd> True... bitcoind can't compile on a ec2 micro instance (512MiB ram)
772 2013-01-26 23:53:25 <HM> it's a slow ass compile as well
773 2013-01-26 23:53:30 <HM> due, i think, to bloaty headers
774 2013-01-26 23:53:39 <HM> very few forward decls
775 2013-01-26 23:54:44 <HM> anyone tried with clang?
776 2013-01-26 23:56:07 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't be too surprised if you couldn't compile hello world on an EC2 instance while pulling in the libraries we pull in. (the crazy json template library and boost).
777 2013-01-26 23:56:34 <HM> i hate boost spirit
778 2013-01-26 23:56:40 <HM> i'm fond of xpressive though
779 2013-01-26 23:57:34 <HM> xpressive could probably handle limited amounts of json
780 2013-01-26 23:59:00 <petertodd> given that you can compile python with cython I find it hard to think of a good reason to use C++ that doesn't involve compatibility
781 2013-01-26 23:59:50 <sipa> and efficiency?