1 2013-01-27 00:01:23 <petertodd> sipa: for efficiency, use cython
   2 2013-01-27 00:01:49 <gmaxwell> Only works when you have obvious innerloops.
   3 2013-01-27 00:02:13 <petertodd> writing your whole program in cython is quite reasonable
   4 2013-01-27 00:02:28 <petertodd> and what cython compiles to is pretty good
   5 2013-01-27 00:02:42 <sipa> not following (i'm not very python-aware, though)
   6 2013-01-27 00:02:55 <sipa> do you mean writing stuff in python and having that compiled to machine code
   7 2013-01-27 00:03:05 <sipa> or linking with subroutines written in C?
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   9 2013-01-27 00:03:36 <HM> I disagree, i think C++ is the way to go. If you wanted you could bolt on Lua for scripting
  10 2013-01-27 00:03:45 <gmaxwell> scripting?!
  11 2013-01-27 00:03:56 <petertodd> well, basically cython is a cython compiler that accepts a language very similar to python, similar enough that most python code is valid cython as is, yet at the same time you can add declarations in cython for variable types and the like
  12 2013-01-27 00:03:57 <HM> yes, scripting your daemon
  13 2013-01-27 00:04:28 <petertodd> the cython compiler outputs C code that targets the python C api, and at that point you've got code that is very close to the efficiency of C
  14 2013-01-27 00:05:55 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yes, if you don't use a fair amount of python's features, like any of the library except numpy, strings. list comprehensions. generators. lambdas... or I assume a lot of stuff I'm not aware of.
  15 2013-01-27 00:06:04 <petertodd> the numpy/scipy project - numerical computation and some symbolic and other stuff - uses cython extensively
  16 2013-01-27 00:06:40 <HM> what would the benefit of moving to python be
  17 2013-01-27 00:07:22 <petertodd> gmaxwell: list comprehensions have been added to cython IIRC, generators they're working on, same with lambdas, more to the point implementing a lot of that stuff in C++ efficiently is hard too (although boost has right?)
  18 2013-01-27 00:07:49 <HM> c++ has lambdas, and generators
  19 2013-01-27 00:08:04 <gmaxwell> petertodd:  Yes, thats why I mentioned numpy.. maybe it's gotten a lot faster since I last looked, but it was only like 20% faster on pybench than cypthon too.
  20 2013-01-27 00:08:28 <gmaxwell> petertodd: sure but forcing you into a subdialect of the language further restricts the developers on the project.
  21 2013-01-27 00:09:02 <petertodd> gmaxwell: You sure that's due to cython though? I thought numpy's internals were compiled only.
  22 2013-01-27 00:09:20 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yes, but the alternative is C++ :P
  23 2013-01-27 00:10:09 <petertodd> It's not a perfect solution by any means, but at least from what I've seen it's a very good one that should be considered a lot more. Heck, even just sticking with pure-Python (or some other hll) would be a good solution for a lot of projects.
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  27 2013-01-27 00:12:42 <gmaxwell> A couple years back I had decided "my time is more valueable than the computer's I'll stop using C for one time programs and use python" ... but after too many cases where naive python was hundreds or even as much as 2000x slower than my C code, and finding I was wasting a lot of time twiddling the python to make it even remotely fast enough ( 'of of course, use xrange instead of range.. how does anyone not know that' ) I gave up.  I'm sympat
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  32 2013-01-27 00:13:31 <gmaxwell> Of course, C++ is a mess too. C isn't though. :P
  33 2013-01-27 00:13:58 <sipa> I'm sympat[...] ?
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  35 2013-01-27 00:14:18 <gmaxwell> I'm sympathetic, but skeptical.
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  38 2013-01-27 00:15:04 <petertodd> Yeah, I don't do very much stuff where even being thousands of times slower matters, and the few that do I find I can get away with Cython. But hey, my day job is analog electronics, so take what I say with a grain of salt!
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  41 2013-01-27 00:15:29 <petertodd> My coworkers are mostly moving to Python/numpy/scipy from matlab and mathematical FWIW.
  42 2013-01-27 00:16:06 <sipa> i'd be impressed if you could replace analog electronics by cython!
  43 2013-01-27 00:16:11 <petertodd> s/mathematical/mathematica/
  44 2013-01-27 00:16:38 <HM> i code c++ for a living, i guess we all have our own biases
  45 2013-01-27 00:16:48 <petertodd> sipa: lol
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  47 2013-01-27 00:18:01 <petertodd> I think much of my bias is C++ is complex enough that I find it hard to "just jump in" and get stuff done, which isn't true of Python, and even Cython compiles to C-code that's readable enough to relatively quickly understand what it's doing under the hood.
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  51 2013-01-27 00:18:59 <sipa> well, in several place the use of C++ is restricted to a subset of the language
  52 2013-01-27 00:19:18 <sipa> which makes sense i think, as it means you don't need to force everyone to understand every feature
  53 2013-01-27 00:19:18 <petertodd> I spent a summer learning lisp once actually, and my main complaint about the lisp compiler I was using was that while it was utterly magical, reading the assembler output was difficult at best.
  54 2013-01-27 00:19:35 <petertodd> sipa: yup, which is fine, but it means now working with two different projects is difficult
  55 2013-01-27 00:19:40 <sipa> agree
  56 2013-01-27 00:19:46 <gmaxwell> Python/numpy/scipy  vs matlab/octave is probably a more fair comparison. In mathlab your own code is generally horribly slow unless it spends all its time inside the matlab operators (which are fast). So long as numpy/scipy are fast enough then anything using them will be compariable to matlab.
  57 2013-01-27 00:20:15 <sipa> s/mathlab/matlab/
  58 2013-01-27 00:20:29 <HM> that's like PHP, it powers half the worlds blogs, it's dog slow...but most of its functions are just slim wrappers in to C libraries
  59 2013-01-27 00:20:46 <HM> (which is why it's so inconsistent)
  60 2013-01-27 00:20:52 <petertodd> gmaxwell: For sure. Early numpy used C libraries for everything speed critical and the rest was Python, it's only more recently that Cython's been used.
  61 2013-01-27 00:21:00 <HM> any scripting language will be fast if it just wraps optimised C libraries
  62 2013-01-27 00:21:21 <petertodd> HM: usually, although memory management overhead can be a big problem
  63 2013-01-27 00:21:29 <sipa> HM: and all tight loops of the logic are inside the C code
  64 2013-01-27 00:22:00 <HM> yeah i think i read every single PHP value consumes something like 100 bytes
  65 2013-01-27 00:22:10 <petertodd> Remember that every time you get your working set small enough to fit in another level of the memory hiarchy, your access speed goes up by at least an order of magnitude.
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  67 2013-01-27 00:23:28 <HM> like translating python to C....you're bypassing the interpreter (bytecode or otherwise), and getting direct dispatch through compile time linking
  68 2013-01-27 00:24:06 <petertodd> HM: exactly, and in particular your instance attributes can become direct struct accesses in cython
  69 2013-01-27 00:24:19 <HM> Oh...someone should port bitcoind to Chromes NaCl so we can run it in a browser :P
  70 2013-01-27 00:24:32 <gmaxwell> HM: picocoin, not bitcoind
  71 2013-01-27 00:24:34 <petertodd> (although not enough people know about Python's __slots__ feature as it is)
  72 2013-01-27 00:25:56 <HM> I'm not really a python guy. i've started playing with it again recently for some web projects
  73 2013-01-27 00:26:16 <HM> Django it's ORM is weak compared to what i'm used to in C++...
  74 2013-01-27 00:26:25 <HM> *Django is nice but it's ORM...
  75 2013-01-27 00:26:46 <sipa> you mean 'its' ?
  76 2013-01-27 00:26:59 <CodeShark> no, I think he means it's
  77 2013-01-27 00:27:11 <CodeShark> or at least in the second instance
  78 2013-01-27 00:27:20 <CodeShark> or perhaps not p
  79 2013-01-27 00:27:24 <HM> yeah its
  80 2013-01-27 00:27:28 <sipa> seems to me the second instance is a replacement for the prefix of the first
  81 2013-01-27 00:27:39 <CodeShark> yes
  82 2013-01-27 00:27:47 <HM> I now need a third :P but i'll spare you
  83 2013-01-27 00:28:05 <petertodd> What's weak about the ORM? Lack of object types and the like? (never used Django myself)
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  87 2013-01-27 00:29:44 <CodeShark> I find in the time it takes me to fully evaluate and master a new framework, I can write a couple of my own :p
  88 2013-01-27 00:30:02 <sipa> writing code is easier than reading code
  89 2013-01-27 00:30:06 <CodeShark> for sure
  90 2013-01-27 00:30:32 <sipa> but the problem is that newly written code doesn't work yet, while code you're reading often already does :p
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  94 2013-01-27 00:31:54 <HM> petertodd: I just find it lacks the versatility
  95 2013-01-27 00:32:04 <HM> it's also magic variable based
  96 2013-01-27 00:32:19 <CodeShark> the problem with frameworks is that you end up investing a lot of time and effort into learning something that isn't really fundamental and doesn't really carry over to any project
  97 2013-01-27 00:32:39 <CodeShark> whereas learning how to implement stuff from scratch does :)
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 101 2013-01-27 00:33:01 <Scrat> this might become big: http://appjs.org/
 102 2013-01-27 00:33:06 <CodeShark> but there's a place for frameworks, of course
 103 2013-01-27 00:33:07 Aexoden has joined
 104 2013-01-27 00:33:26 <Scrat> hate js or not, it's a great idea
 105 2013-01-27 00:33:39 <CodeShark> it's just that people often end up overrelying on them - and once they master the use of the hammer, everything starts to look like a nail
 106 2013-01-27 00:34:00 <HM> Scrat, another server side javascript framework?
 107 2013-01-27 00:34:02 <Scrat> using chromium as a multiplatform abstraction layer
 108 2013-01-27 00:34:14 <Scrat> HM: desktop
 109 2013-01-27 00:34:54 <sipa> desktop what?
 110 2013-01-27 00:35:02 <HM> I avoid webdev wherever possible
 111 2013-01-27 00:35:07 <CodeShark> the nicest thing about node.js is that it has HTTP, websockets, and JSON as built-in features of the language
 112 2013-01-27 00:35:32 <Scrat> sipa: desktop application where the UI is html/css and code is JS
 113 2013-01-27 00:35:42 <petertodd> HM: ah, yeah I've done almost no framework using code at all, analog electronics isn't exactly known for it :P although that said I have been dragged into some of the equivilent with fpga/microprocessor stuff, which makes hll frameworks look sane by comparison...
 114 2013-01-27 00:35:53 <Scrat> making use of the great work that has been done in chromium/v8
 115 2013-01-27 00:36:26 <HM> I think Google want to push 1) their extension APIs and 2) NaCl.
 116 2013-01-27 00:36:38 <HM> Mozilla tried browser applications a decade ago with XUL
 117 2013-01-27 00:36:41 meLon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 118 2013-01-27 00:36:51 <HM> nothing on the web gets saner with time
 119 2013-01-27 00:37:49 <jgarzik> I dunno.  XML is slowly fading away, thankfully.
 120 2013-01-27 00:37:55 <CodeShark> I'm still not sure about the HTML 5 approach to desktop app development - it's been talked about for a long time...but it still doesn't quite work like it was intended to
 121 2013-01-27 00:38:02 <HM> yeah so now we have Json, which gives you structured data...
 122 2013-01-27 00:38:10 <HM> but no standardised way to transform or query it
 123 2013-01-27 00:38:44 <HM> so we're emulated binary protocols using json over websockets like a bunch of numpties
 124 2013-01-27 00:38:47 <HM> *emulating
 125 2013-01-27 00:40:10 <petertodd> isn't progress wonderful?
 126 2013-01-27 00:40:13 <CodeShark> lol
 127 2013-01-27 00:40:13 <Scrat> CodeShark: your UI will look exactly the same on all platforms, have hardware acceleration, have the huge node/libuv api which can do whatever you want AND the entire npm repo at your disposal
 128 2013-01-27 00:40:17 <upb> < CodeShark> the nicest thing about node.js is that it has HTTP, websockets, and JSON as built-in features of the language
 129 2013-01-27 00:40:18 <Scrat> I think that it will take off
 130 2013-01-27 00:40:19 <jgarzik> websockets is awful; avoid at all costs.
 131 2013-01-27 00:40:19 <upb> ^- how are they built int othe language?!?!
 132 2013-01-27 00:40:27 toffoo has quit ()
 133 2013-01-27 00:40:29 <upb> theyre more supported by the standard lib
 134 2013-01-27 00:40:38 <HM> jgarzik: you have no alternative for low latency comms in the browser
 135 2013-01-27 00:40:47 <HM> but i agree
 136 2013-01-27 00:40:51 <CodeShark> Scrat: I don't necessarily want my UI to look exactly the same on all platforms - different platforms have different look-and-feel and I sort of like my apps on the platform to have an inner consistency
 137 2013-01-27 00:41:27 <Scrat> in that case dont style your input boxes or buttons and chromium will show OS widgets
 138 2013-01-27 00:41:39 <Scrat> well for the most part :p
 139 2013-01-27 00:42:07 <sipa> is OS understood to include desktop environment?
 140 2013-01-27 00:42:20 <HM> world moves to web GUIs, 2 decades of GUI and widget dev wasted
 141 2013-01-27 00:42:32 <CodeShark> it's more subtle than that - on some platforms, navigation involves a toolbar on the bottom - on others, it might be more customary to use pop-up menus
 142 2013-01-27 00:42:46 <CodeShark> depending on the pointing device and such
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 146 2013-01-27 00:45:16 <CodeShark> sipa: O
 147 2013-01-27 00:45:30 <CodeShark> sipa: I'd say "platform" could refer to the windowing environment
 148 2013-01-27 00:45:43 <CodeShark> but I don't usually understand OS to mean that
 149 2013-01-27 00:46:45 <Scrat> CodeShark: I see what you mean. but I don't think it's more work to incorporate these conventions compared to Qt for example
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 156 2013-01-27 00:49:43 <CodeShark> Scrat: I suppose at that level of detail you're right. However, I have to say that by default, Qt controls do tend to blend in pretty well with the windowing environment in which they run
 157 2013-01-27 00:51:11 <HM> Gtkmm isn't bad to work with but tends to look like crud on Windows
 158 2013-01-27 00:51:20 <HM> and feel very foreign
 159 2013-01-27 00:51:33 <Scrat> browser is the new OS
 160 2013-01-27 00:51:50 <HM> Since Qt liberalised their license i've moved to it exclusively
 161 2013-01-27 00:51:51 <CodeShark> Scrat: people have been saying that since the days of netscape vs. internet explorer
 162 2013-01-27 00:53:23 <sipa> Scrat: you're referring to Active Desktop? :p
 163 2013-01-27 00:54:21 <HM> Desktop widgets didn't last long in Windows Vista/7
 164 2013-01-27 00:54:32 <Scrat> sipa: damn that was aweful
 165 2013-01-27 00:55:52 <sipa> hmm, never realized how similar the words awesome and aweful are
 166 2013-01-27 00:56:27 <HM> I think you mean 'awful'
 167 2013-01-27 00:56:30 meLon has joined
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 169 2013-01-27 00:56:30 meLon has joined
 170 2013-01-27 00:56:56 <HM> take that you it's/its Nazi :P
 171 2013-01-27 00:57:07 <Scrat> HM: you're right (lol at first search hit of "aweful")
 172 2013-01-27 00:57:39 <sipa> HM: didn't intend to be a grammar nazi (i was honestly struggling to parse your sentence) - and you're right about awful :D
 173 2013-01-27 00:58:26 <CodeShark> now we live in an age where practically every device comes with some form of webview built into its software stack - yet the trend has not been to abandon the platform's graphical shell in favor of a webview...but rather, supporting the webview embedded into its graphical shell, which often has unifying components that go beyond a URL bar, back, and forward buttons
 174 2013-01-27 00:58:47 dvide has quit ()
 175 2013-01-27 00:59:53 <CodeShark> I still don't see the webview replacing the shell altogether
 176 2013-01-27 01:00:07 <HM> Best innovation i've seen recently on the web is Mozilla Persona
 177 2013-01-27 01:00:22 <Scrat> but really imagine a game (not talking crysis here) where you don't have to write a single line of platform specific code and all your code is in high level interpreted languages. you might ask what's the difference between that and a "web app". the difference is that you control the experience, you have a ton of low level libs at your disposal and it will work 100% of the time
 178 2013-01-27 01:01:01 <Scrat> web apps also can't spawn real tcp sockets (screw you websocket)
 179 2013-01-27 01:01:14 meLon has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 180 2013-01-27 01:01:28 <HM> I think NaCl is the bees knees as well because it means you don't have to port your language of choice to JVM (which is the only real portable runtime in the browser atm)
 181 2013-01-27 01:02:04 meLon has joined
 182 2013-01-27 01:02:17 <HM> Then you have people trying to make JS the 'assemby language of the web'
 183 2013-01-27 01:02:24 <HM> which is kind of like admitting defeat
 184 2013-01-27 01:03:10 <CodeShark> JS was originally just intended to provide hover-over effects and do web-form validation :p
 185 2013-01-27 01:03:15 <Scrat> if it can run nacl in the future then it will broaden it's potential
 186 2013-01-27 01:03:31 <Scrat> right now chrome is at 33% market share
 187 2013-01-27 01:04:13 * HM shrugs
 188 2013-01-27 01:04:42 <Scrat> CodeShark: but but. google invested millions on V8 and the result is that it's only about 4 times slower than native C (on average)
 189 2013-01-27 01:05:02 <Scrat> and I'll agree with you that it's horrible (wasn't it made in a week?)
 190 2013-01-27 01:05:15 <HM> v8 is slower than luajit, which is a 1 man development effort
 191 2013-01-27 01:05:18 <CodeShark> it's pretty remarkable how much faster JS runtime has gotten in the last few years
 192 2013-01-27 01:05:42 <sipa> Scrat: what is made in a week?
 193 2013-01-27 01:06:01 <Scrat> JS
 194 2013-01-27 01:06:14 <sipa> :o
 195 2013-01-27 01:06:20 <CodeShark> erm...
 196 2013-01-27 01:06:37 <porquilho> fuck you talltim
 197 2013-01-27 01:06:41 <porquilho> you ruined a good channel
 198 2013-01-27 01:06:49 <sipa> talltim?
 199 2013-01-27 01:06:52 <porquilho> there is always a talltim to ruin things
 200 2013-01-27 01:06:55 <porquilho> i go sleep now
 201 2013-01-27 01:06:57 <porquilho> bye
 202 2013-01-27 01:07:06 <CodeShark> mmm...ok..
 203 2013-01-27 01:07:13 <sipa> wth is he talking about
 204 2013-01-27 01:07:17 <Scrat> HM now you're just trolling
 205 2013-01-27 01:07:19 <petertodd> s/talltim/gmaxwell/ ?
 206 2013-01-27 01:07:32 <porquilho> talltim
 207 2013-01-27 01:07:35 <porquilho> not gmaxwell
 208 2013-01-27 01:07:41 <sipa> wth is talltim
 209 2013-01-27 01:07:51 meLon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 210 2013-01-27 01:07:58 <porquilho> he is here
 211 2013-01-27 01:08:07 <porquilho> oh i guess he left
 212 2013-01-27 01:08:09 <porquilho> he was here
 213 2013-01-27 01:08:13 <porquilho> anyway i go sleep
 214 2013-01-27 01:08:16 meLon has joined
 215 2013-01-27 01:08:18 <CodeShark> yes, please do
 216 2013-01-27 01:08:31 <porquilho> bye
 217 2013-01-27 01:08:32 <porquilho> good night
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 219 2013-01-27 01:11:41 <CodeShark> I like the native client stuff - I tend to prefer the approach of using languages and libraries that compile to multiple native clients and having each client fetch a version optimized for it...than the approach of using clunky interpreted languages or JVM-like middleware that eats at your performance
 220 2013-01-27 01:12:26 <CodeShark> and can make your programs behave in strange ways
 221 2013-01-27 01:12:33 <HM> Some JITs are good enough for even performance sensitive applications
 222 2013-01-27 01:13:05 <HM> Garbage collection is tricky though, i think it can make or break a language whether it works right or just 'ok'
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 224 2013-01-27 01:13:55 <CodeShark> JITs have gotten much better in the last decade or so - but most still are at least a little quirky
 225 2013-01-27 01:14:10 <HM> Mozillas Rust looks damned interesting, the language itself has pointer types that help the garbage collector work more efficiently
 226 2013-01-27 01:14:27 <CodeShark> reference counting?
 227 2013-01-27 01:14:40 <CodeShark> does the developer have to give it clues?
 228 2013-01-27 01:15:16 <sipa> i imagine it must mean something like smart pointers
 229 2013-01-27 01:15:18 <HM> I don't know how it's implemented
 230 2013-01-27 01:15:37 <HM> they call them borrowed pointers
 231 2013-01-27 01:15:50 <CodeShark> probably something like boost::shared_ptr
 232 2013-01-27 01:15:58 <HM> you mean std::shared_ptr :P
 233 2013-01-27 01:16:09 <CodeShark> or std::shared_ptr :P
 234 2013-01-27 01:16:28 <HM> it's similar semantically but moving between unique_ptr and shared_ptr is possible in Rust and moves the object between memory heaps
 235 2013-01-27 01:16:46 <HM> this means the garbage collector can operate on each thread without stopping the world
 236 2013-01-27 01:16:50 <HM> or something along those lines
 237 2013-01-27 01:17:13 <HM> i think there are 4 pointer types...all with arcane syntax
 238 2013-01-27 01:17:37 <CodeShark> so then it does place some responsibility on the developer for optimizing things a bit
 239 2013-01-27 01:17:48 * Scrat is taking a look at Rust
 240 2013-01-27 01:17:55 <Scrat> looks very Go-like
 241 2013-01-27 01:18:38 <HM> CodeShark: yep, and it gives you unmanaged access to memory
 242 2013-01-27 01:18:55 <HM> the endgame is a systems language
 243 2013-01-27 01:18:57 <CodeShark> I always hated about Java that it doesn't let me tell it that I'm done with something and I want it to take care of removing it from the heap immediately
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 247 2013-01-27 01:20:02 <HM> I have bigger gripes with java than that :P
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 249 2013-01-27 01:20:40 <CodeShark> well, the fact that it was both a programming language and a virtual machine bundled under a single brand was also a little annoying :)
 250 2013-01-27 01:20:53 <HM> but whatever, languages are like languages. sometimes you have to go to another country and put up with them
 251 2013-01-27 01:21:46 <CodeShark> sure - when in rome and all that
 252 2013-01-27 01:21:54 <sipa> CodeShark: you mean a language, a compiler, a runtime library, and a virtual machine?
 253 2013-01-27 01:22:08 <CodeShark> lol. yeah, sipa :)
 254 2013-01-27 01:22:53 <CodeShark> although I don't mind the language and runtime library being combined if the implementation is optimized and it makes code more consistent in style
 255 2013-01-27 01:23:02 <CodeShark> like C++ and std
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 257 2013-01-27 01:24:44 <HM> Interesting to note that the Clang devs are reimplementing their libstdc++ from scratch
 258 2013-01-27 01:24:52 <Luke-Jr> sipa: bleh, couldn't you have based that pull on top of block proposals? :<
 259 2013-01-27 01:24:56 meLon has joined
 260 2013-01-27 01:24:57 meLon has quit (Changing host)
 261 2013-01-27 01:24:57 meLon has joined
 262 2013-01-27 01:25:04 <HM> although the clang i have on my system uses the GNU implementation
 263 2013-01-27 01:26:27 <Luke-Jr> sipa: if there's even anything new in that pull of yours? O.o
 264 2013-01-27 01:26:38 <sipa> Luke-Jr: read the description?
 265 2013-01-27 01:27:45 <sipa> heh, ok
 266 2013-01-27 01:27:59 <sipa> seems i never looked into how block proposals was implemented
 267 2013-01-27 01:28:20 <Luke-Jr> <.<
 268 2013-01-27 01:28:59 <CodeShark> where's block proposals?
 269 2013-01-27 01:29:16 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1816
 270 2013-01-27 01:29:53 meLon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 271 2013-01-27 01:30:17 <CodeShark> lol "Rebased and implemented @sipa 's CValidationResult solution."
 272 2013-01-27 01:30:22 <CodeShark> 2 months ago?
 273 2013-01-27 01:30:58 <sipa> i even completely forgot about having suggested such a solution :S
 274 2013-01-27 01:31:00 <Luke-Jr> XD
 275 2013-01-27 01:31:10 <sipa> seems I'm at least consistent with myself...
 276 2013-01-27 01:31:16 meLon has joined
 277 2013-01-27 01:32:42 * Scrat likes spendfrom.py
 278 2013-01-27 01:35:16 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i think what i've implemented now is somewhat more efficient (not copying it through every function return) and deals with runtime errors as well
 279 2013-01-27 01:35:28 <sipa> Luke-Jr: adding rejection reason codes/strings to it shouldn't be hard
 280 2013-01-27 01:35:38 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it shouldn't be copied…
 281 2013-01-27 01:36:10 <Luke-Jr> but I guess it's more flexible
 282 2013-01-27 01:36:12 <sipa> i didn't copy anything!
 283 2013-01-27 01:36:25 <Luke-Jr> no, I mean returning a value shouldn't copy it :P
 284 2013-01-27 01:36:50 <sipa> right, there are optimizations that avoid that
 285 2013-01-27 01:36:54 <CodeShark> references are faster...except if you're spawning a thread and doing a tight loop on the data, in which case copying is faster as we found out the other day, right, sipa? :)
 286 2013-01-27 01:38:47 in has joined
 287 2013-01-27 01:40:20 meLon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 288 2013-01-27 01:42:06 <CodeShark> however, for classes with only a couple primitive type members, I question whether avoiding copies really should be a priority at all
 289 2013-01-27 01:42:29 <HM> if you're not going for ABI stability it doesn't really matter a damn
 290 2013-01-27 01:43:23 <HM> passing by value sucks though when you import foo.h and it uses a type from bar.h
 291 2013-01-27 01:43:38 <HM> with a reference you just need a forward declaration, speeds up compilation
 292 2013-01-27 01:44:02 <HM> i noticed this the other day looking at "main.h"
 293 2013-01-27 01:44:18 epscy has joined
 294 2013-01-27 01:45:05 <HM> I was trying to create a transaction in code without pulling in all the block and database stuff
 295 2013-01-27 01:45:10 <CodeShark> heh
 296 2013-01-27 01:45:35 <sipa> haha
 297 2013-01-27 01:45:46 <CodeShark> this sounds familiar :)
 298 2013-01-27 01:46:33 <sipa> HM: see #2154
 299 2013-01-27 01:48:20 <HM> libbitcoin is a nice codebase
 300 2013-01-27 01:49:06 <HM> competitive implementations are a good thing, worked well for bittorrent clients
 301 2013-01-27 01:49:25 <HM> well, until they started fighting over protocols
 302 2013-01-27 01:49:28 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 303 2013-01-27 01:49:30 <CodeShark> I only took a brief look at libbitcoin - never really played with it much
 304 2013-01-27 01:49:41 RainbowDashh has joined
 305 2013-01-27 01:50:32 <CodeShark> I also have my own codebase for basic bitcoin message structures, HM... :)
 306 2013-01-27 01:50:58 <HM> you mean the wire protocol?
 307 2013-01-27 01:51:02 <CodeShark> yeah
 308 2013-01-27 01:51:49 <CodeShark> but I only started packaging it so it could be easily used by other developers
 309 2013-01-27 01:51:56 <CodeShark> never really fully packaged it
 310 2013-01-27 01:52:01 <HM> that's awesome, got github?
 311 2013-01-27 01:52:12 <CodeShark> https://github.com/CodeShark/CoinClasses
 312 2013-01-27 01:52:53 <CodeShark> and the networking stuff could use some improvements as far as setting up message queues and supporting higher concurrency and such
 313 2013-01-27 01:53:04 <HM> looks decent enough, is this from scratch?
 314 2013-01-27 01:53:10 <CodeShark> pretty much
 315 2013-01-27 01:53:33 <CodeShark> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification was what I mostly used as a reference :)
 316 2013-01-27 01:54:16 * HM nods
 317 2013-01-27 01:54:26 <CodeShark> and I took some of the ECDSA code from bitcoind
 318 2013-01-27 01:54:33 <CodeShark> specifically the CoinKey class
 319 2013-01-27 01:55:56 <HM> i quite like having an RPC interface atm, it means there's no bitcoin code linked in to any of my code which is reassuring for stability both ways.
 320 2013-01-27 01:56:25 <HM> i think the author of libbitcoin has pushed the transaction database to postgres
 321 2013-01-27 01:57:15 <HM> i'm not familiar with that side of things, i'm mostly interested in the crypto and transactional side of it all.
 322 2013-01-27 01:57:45 <CodeShark> yeah, I started out mostly just trying to build a notification agent
 323 2013-01-27 01:57:46 <CodeShark> lol
 324 2013-01-27 01:57:56 <HM> did you succeed?
 325 2013-01-27 01:58:13 <CodeShark> yeah - check out the listener2 example
 326 2013-01-27 01:59:25 <HM> yup makes sense
 327 2013-01-27 01:59:38 <CodeShark> then I wanted to build a custom wallet
 328 2013-01-27 01:59:59 <CodeShark> then a block chain/transaction database
 329 2013-01-27 02:00:17 <CodeShark> but I didn't start on the end of wanting to build a full verification node
 330 2013-01-27 02:00:48 <CodeShark> verification nodes already existed - what was missing was a way to filter messages and send alerts
 331 2013-01-27 02:01:26 <HM> I'm amazed how many bitcoin web services there are popping up
 332 2013-01-27 02:02:48 <CodeShark> as for the wallet stuff, I wanted to experiment with creating custom transactions
 333 2013-01-27 02:03:01 <CodeShark> now there's the createrawtransaction RPC in bitcoind
 334 2013-01-27 02:03:09 <CodeShark> but when I started working on it, that RPC didn't exist
 335 2013-01-27 02:03:36 <HM> yeah it's handy
 336 2013-01-27 02:06:17 <HM> did anyone consider a dbus api?
 337 2013-01-27 02:06:57 <CodeShark> not that I'm aware of
 338 2013-01-27 02:07:22 <HM> it's just that DBus makes more sense locally than HTTP RPC
 339 2013-01-27 02:07:27 <HM> well, except on Windows
 340 2013-01-27 02:07:36 <CodeShark> but that might be something to consider in trying to separate the GUI from the verification node
 341 2013-01-27 02:07:44 <CodeShark> which is something I'd really like to eventually do
 342 2013-01-27 02:08:10 <HM> that should be fairly straightforward
 343 2013-01-27 02:08:18 <HM> bitcoin doesn't have a million and 1 user functions
 344 2013-01-27 02:08:49 <HM> do you mean by creating a library or via RPC + multiprocess?
 345 2013-01-27 02:09:08 <CodeShark> well, ideally I'd like to see bitcoind become a streamlined, optimized verification/relay node
 346 2013-01-27 02:09:23 <CodeShark> whose main tasks are validating network messages, relaying them, and preventing DoS
 347 2013-01-27 02:10:00 <CodeShark> and I'd like to see wallets, notification agents, network monitoring tools, and databases moved to separate processes
 348 2013-01-27 02:10:40 <HM> for what it's worth, i like that idea muchly
 349 2013-01-27 02:13:08 <CodeShark> and while it would be possible to start from scratch in building such an engine, the fact that such an engine already exists, works, and has been tested and is trusted by people already means it's probably easier to work from the inside out than from the outside in
 350 2013-01-27 02:14:32 <HM> I agree
 351 2013-01-27 02:14:52 <CodeShark> which is why I've put the CoinClasses project on hold for the moment in favor of improving bitcoind
 352 2013-01-27 02:15:39 <HM> RPC has the advantage that you can break all your other APIs whenever you please without upsetting developers.
 353 2013-01-27 02:15:48 <HM> well, external developers :P
 354 2013-01-27 02:16:27 <HM> hell you can even change languages
 355 2013-01-27 02:17:20 <CodeShark> yeah, and it's decent for situations where you don't require excessive bandwidth
 356 2013-01-27 02:17:36 <CodeShark> or excessive back and forth, rather
 357 2013-01-27 02:18:23 <HM> Are you familiar with zeromq?
 358 2013-01-27 02:18:31 <HM> it's something i've been playing with recently
 359 2013-01-27 02:18:38 <CodeShark> played with it briefly - never built a major app with it
 360 2013-01-27 02:18:57 <HM> the codebase put me off
 361 2013-01-27 02:19:17 <HM> i have a nasty habit of looking at the code for everything before i use it
 362 2013-01-27 02:19:53 <HM> another nice thing i've been looking at of that ilk is Piqi
 363 2013-01-27 02:19:54 <CodeShark> heh - I didn't really look under the hood
 364 2013-01-27 02:20:04 <HM> but it's Erlang centric, sadly
 365 2013-01-27 02:20:58 <CodeShark> I have zero experience with erlang - but have heard good things about building apps with high concurrency using it :)
 366 2013-01-27 02:21:48 <HM> yeah that's the spin
 367 2013-01-27 02:22:00 <CodeShark> as for being compatible with google protocol buffers, so it's essentially another representation language that uses the same wire format as protocol buffers
 368 2013-01-27 02:22:01 <gmaxwell> thumb thumb thump, another one bites the dust: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139089.0
 369 2013-01-27 02:22:36 <HM> CodeShark: but seemless mappings between JSON, PB and a built in RPC service
 370 2013-01-27 02:22:43 <HM> PB doesn't do RPC well / at all
 371 2013-01-27 02:22:57 <CodeShark> well, PB is a binary format
 372 2013-01-27 02:23:15 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 373 2013-01-27 02:24:14 b4epoche has joined
 374 2013-01-27 02:24:21 <CodeShark> and most HTTP is text
 375 2013-01-27 02:24:39 <HM> HTTP is an abortion for anything other than what it was designed for
 376 2013-01-27 02:24:45 <CodeShark> haha
 377 2013-01-27 02:24:56 <CodeShark> you mean fetching documents from servers? :)
 378 2013-01-27 02:25:00 <HM> the RESTful nuts keep trying to make web app APIs beautiful and semantic
 379 2013-01-27 02:25:49 <HM> Disclaimer: I will rant about webdev at the drop of a hat
 380 2013-01-27 02:26:03 <CodeShark> it's a victim of its own success
 381 2013-01-27 02:26:16 <HM> gmaxwell: I'm not familiar with the ASIC saga. Have butterfly actually shipped anything?
 382 2013-01-27 02:26:31 <CodeShark> HTTP made it possible for complete nonprogrammers to put together something that has the vague semblance of an interactive app
 383 2013-01-27 02:27:38 <gmaxwell> HM: nope, not yet at least.
 384 2013-01-27 02:28:01 <gmaxwell> HM: avalon claims to be shipping now but may be having some customs challenges.
 385 2013-01-27 02:28:12 <gmaxwell> basic imploded.
 386 2013-01-27 02:28:45 <HM> if customs are the problem, wouldn't domestic buyers be tickety-boo?
 387 2013-01-27 02:29:00 <Luke-Jr> I don't buy Avalon's story tbh.
 388 2013-01-27 02:29:04 <jgarzik> customs is just speculation
 389 2013-01-27 02:29:13 <jgarzik> Avalon has just said "we shipped"
 390 2013-01-27 02:29:15 <gmaxwell> Asicminer has suffered some delays (that god, or we'd have a single mining farm with a supermajority of the hashpower, run by people who claim to not see any problems with that)
 391 2013-01-27 02:29:44 in has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 392 2013-01-27 02:29:50 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: ah, I thought they'd actually said they may have slowdowns in customs. Hard to not get swamped in a sea of speculation.
 393 2013-01-27 02:30:22 <gmaxwell> I note that their shipping delays mean that I have to have them change my shipping address, and they haven't responded to my email asking them to do so.
 394 2013-01-27 02:30:51 <gmaxwell> I'm now actually waiting on hearing back from them to book plane tickets... getting a little irritated about that.
 395 2013-01-27 02:31:30 <gmaxwell> (esp since I asked before ordering if it was going to be an issue to do this if their shippment ended up happning after my move)
 396 2013-01-27 02:32:40 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: Southwest lets you cancel with practically no notice, FWIW
 397 2013-01-27 02:32:47 <Luke-Jr> and get a full refund on your plane ticket
 398 2013-01-27 02:32:51 <Luke-Jr> (as credit, but still)
 399 2013-01-27 02:33:33 <Luke-Jr> there's been a few times I've booked multiple flights months in advance, since I didn't know exactly when I'd be flying
 400 2013-01-27 02:33:45 <Luke-Jr> and cancelled the ones I didn't end up taking
 401 2013-01-27 02:33:47 LargoG has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 402 2013-01-27 02:34:00 <CodeShark> I'm glad I have nothing to do with the whole ASICs drama unfolding :)
 403 2013-01-27 02:34:08 <CodeShark> and can just watch from the outside with amusement
 404 2013-01-27 02:34:13 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: meh, it's only drama if you read bitcointalk
 405 2013-01-27 02:34:43 <HM> or r/bitcoin
 406 2013-01-27 02:38:34 FredEE has joined
 407 2013-01-27 02:38:57 Z0rZ0rZ0r has quit (Quit: Wheeeee)
 408 2013-01-27 02:41:25 mykhal has quit (Quit: leaving)
 409 2013-01-27 02:42:54 <JWU42> building new rig and been a while since installing from git
 410 2013-01-27 02:43:02 <JWU42> get this error - 12.04 box
 411 2013-01-27 02:43:03 <JWU42> db.h:14:20: fatal error: db_cxx.h: No such file or directory
 412 2013-01-27 02:43:03 <JWU42> compilation terminated.
 413 2013-01-27 02:43:44 <JWU42> I checked out 0.7.2 - not master
 414 2013-01-27 02:43:46 <CodeShark> you need to set your include path
 415 2013-01-27 02:43:51 <CodeShark> what OS are you running?
 416 2013-01-27 02:44:04 <JWU42> Ubuntu 12.04
 417 2013-01-27 02:44:24 <CodeShark> are you building the headless daemon? or bitcoin-qt?
 418 2013-01-27 02:44:34 <JWU42> seems db related for sure - and I notice comments about db 4.8 in the build notes
 419 2013-01-27 02:44:40 <JWU42> bitcoind
 420 2013-01-27 02:44:41 <CodeShark> check out https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2195
 421 2013-01-27 02:44:49 <JWU42> headless..
 422 2013-01-27 02:45:02 <CodeShark> grab the configure file from that repo and try running it
 423 2013-01-27 02:45:53 <CodeShark> this: https://github.com/CodeShark/bitcoin/blob/cb23ca73567011551b09326e616e869826128fd7/configure
 424 2013-01-27 02:46:45 <CodeShark> or no, sorry
 425 2013-01-27 02:46:51 <CodeShark> this: https://github.com/CodeShark/bitcoin/blob/cb23ca73567011551b09326e616e869826128fd7/src/configure
 426 2013-01-27 02:46:58 RainbowDashh is now known as ^^
 427 2013-01-27 02:46:59 <CodeShark> the other one is for bitcoin-qt
 428 2013-01-27 02:47:16 <Luke-Jr> JWU42: did you install db4.8 dev pkg?
 429 2013-01-27 02:47:32 <JWU42> Luke-Jr: yeah
 430 2013-01-27 02:47:38 <CodeShark> you can either install the 5.1 package or the 4.8 package. it should work with either
 431 2013-01-27 02:47:57 <JWU42> CodeShark: your script calls for 5.1 but the build inst say no...
 432 2013-01-27 02:47:58 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: bad idea to use anything but 4.8…
 433 2013-01-27 02:48:21 <CodeShark> the script looks for the most recent version and gives a warning if it's 5.1
 434 2013-01-27 02:48:24 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: if your script allows anything else without --use-wrong-bdb-version or such, that's a bug
 435 2013-01-27 02:48:29 <JWU42> libdb4.8-dev is already the newest version.
 436 2013-01-27 02:48:34 ^^ is now known as RainbowDashh
 437 2013-01-27 02:49:00 <CodeShark> anyhow, if you have 4.8 installed, the script should find 4.8
 438 2013-01-27 02:49:11 <Luke-Jr> JWU42: usually you can build with make -f makefile.unix BDB_INCLUDE_PATH=/usr/include/db4.8/
 439 2013-01-27 02:49:12 <JWU42>  BDB: Berkeley DB 4.8.30: (April  9, 2010)
 440 2013-01-27 02:49:36 <JWU42> the script says I am missing packages and calls for 5.1-dev
 441 2013-01-27 02:49:51 <CodeShark> so you have the 5.1 header installed
 442 2013-01-27 02:50:11 <CodeShark> look in /usr/include
 443 2013-01-27 02:50:17 <JWU42> libdb4.8++-dev couldn't be found
 444 2013-01-27 02:50:37 <JWU42> E: Package 'libdb4.8++-dev' has no installation candidate
 445 2013-01-27 02:51:27 <Eliel> CodeShark: the drama surrounding ASICs is somewhat interesting to watch :) I do have money on the outcome (on BFL) though, but the attitude I take with that investment is "if it works out, great. If it doesn't, well, my bet didn't work out."
 446 2013-01-27 02:51:39 <CodeShark> you need to get it from https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin for Ubuntu precise, JWU42
 447 2013-01-27 02:51:50 <JWU42> Luke-Jr: the 4.8 dir isn;t in /usr/include
 448 2013-01-27 02:52:04 <CodeShark> there isn't necessarily a db4.8 directory
 449 2013-01-27 02:52:21 <CodeShark> in my Ubuntu, it's just /usr/include/db.h
 450 2013-01-27 02:52:27 <JWU42> CodeShark: looking at his comment above with the BDB_INCLUDE comment
 451 2013-01-27 02:52:36 <JWU42> yeah - that exists
 452 2013-01-27 02:52:41 <Luke-Jr> JWU42: you need libdb4.8++-dev pkg
 453 2013-01-27 02:53:04 <Luke-Jr> sudo add-apt-repository ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin
 454 2013-01-27 02:53:22 <CodeShark> not sure that will work...will that work on Ubuntu precise, Luke-Jr?
 455 2013-01-27 02:53:30 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: it should
 456 2013-01-27 02:53:36 <CodeShark> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-unix.txt
 457 2013-01-27 02:54:23 <Luke-Jr> JWU42: be sure to apt-get update between apt-add-repository and apt-get install libdb4.8++-dev
 458 2013-01-27 02:54:37 <JWU42> apt-add doesn't work
 459 2013-01-27 02:54:40 <CodeShark> I don't think apt-get will work on 12.04 for 4.8
 460 2013-01-27 02:54:51 <JWU42> CodeShark: i thoink u are right
 461 2013-01-27 02:54:55 <CodeShark> you need to download the package from https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin
 462 2013-01-27 02:54:55 <Luke-Jr> JWU42: doesn't work, how?
 463 2013-01-27 02:55:03 <CodeShark> or you can install 5.1
 464 2013-01-27 02:55:10 <JWU42> sudo: add-apt-repository: command not found
 465 2013-01-27 02:55:24 <Luke-Jr> O.o
 466 2013-01-27 02:55:43 <JWU42> =)
 467 2013-01-27 02:55:45 <CodeShark> JWU42, you have two choices: apt-get install libdb5.1-dev libdb5.1++-dev
 468 2013-01-27 02:55:52 <CodeShark> or download the package from https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin
 469 2013-01-27 02:55:57 <CodeShark> and install 4.8
 470 2013-01-27 02:56:11 <JWU42> ok - never manually installed - will google how
 471 2013-01-27 02:56:26 <JWU42> I thought you use dpkg
 472 2013-01-27 02:56:35 <CodeShark> no, not to install this particular package
 473 2013-01-27 02:56:48 <Luke-Jr> sudo apt-get install python-software-properties
 474 2013-01-27 02:57:06 <CodeShark> apt-get will not work for db4.8 on ubuntu precise
 475 2013-01-27 02:57:16 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: why not?
 476 2013-01-27 02:57:28 <JWU42> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+source/db4.8/4.8.30-11ubuntu1  <  here?
 477 2013-01-27 02:57:29 <CodeShark> because there is no official package for it
 478 2013-01-27 02:57:36 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: that's why you add a repository
 479 2013-01-27 02:57:40 MC-Eeepc has joined
 480 2013-01-27 02:57:43 <CodeShark> yes, JWU42
 481 2013-01-27 02:58:00 <Luke-Jr> JWU42: python-software-properties supposedly has the apt-add-repository program
 482 2013-01-27 02:58:10 <JWU42> so grab the 3 files then what?
 483 2013-01-27 02:58:14 <JWU42> Luke-Jr: thks
 484 2013-01-27 02:58:33 <CodeShark> you actually just need the top file, I believe, JWU42
 485 2013-01-27 02:58:35 <Luke-Jr> JWU42: those 3 files won't do you any good
 486 2013-01-27 02:58:55 <JWU42> nothing like conflicting advice ;)
 487 2013-01-27 02:58:58 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: I've installed it using those files :)
 488 2013-01-27 02:59:06 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: the non-deb ones?
 489 2013-01-27 02:59:22 <CodeShark> let me see...
 490 2013-01-27 02:59:25 <Luke-Jr> his linked page has no deb file
 491 2013-01-27 02:59:32 <JWU42> correct
 492 2013-01-27 02:59:48 <Luke-Jr> why Launchpad is hiding it, I don't know
 493 2013-01-27 03:00:01 <Luke-Jr> I do know that installing from the repository should work tho :P
 494 2013-01-27 03:00:07 <JWU42> K
 495 2013-01-27 03:00:34 <JWU42> PPA added now
 496 2013-01-27 03:00:49 <CodeShark> ok, then add the repo :)
 497 2013-01-27 03:01:24 MC1984 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 498 2013-01-27 03:01:42 <JWU42> tada
 499 2013-01-27 03:01:44 <JWU42> ;)
 500 2013-01-27 03:01:58 MC1984 has joined
 501 2013-01-27 03:02:04 <JWU42> thks Luke-Jr
 502 2013-01-27 03:02:06 <Luke-Jr> np
 503 2013-01-27 03:02:07 <JWU42> and coderrr
 504 2013-01-27 03:02:10 <JWU42> err
 505 2013-01-27 03:02:12 <JWU42> CodeShark:
 506 2013-01-27 03:02:15 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 507 2013-01-27 03:02:23 <CodeShark> everything is working now?
 508 2013-01-27 03:02:28 <JWU42> check
 509 2013-01-27 03:02:31 <JWU42> add the PPA
 510 2013-01-27 03:02:38 <JWU42> update
 511 2013-01-27 03:02:43 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 512 2013-01-27 03:02:45 <CodeShark> great
 513 2013-01-27 03:02:49 <JWU42> then can install the 4.8++
 514 2013-01-27 03:02:57 <CodeShark> I think I just built 4.8 from source when I did it - lol
 515 2013-01-27 03:02:58 grau has joined
 516 2013-01-27 03:03:07 <JWU42> hardcore =)
 517 2013-01-27 03:03:27 <JWU42> I am going to end up redoing this box anyways
 518 2013-01-27 03:03:55 <JWU42> not keen with the partitioning
 519 2013-01-27 03:04:01 <JWU42> haste makes waste
 520 2013-01-27 03:04:05 <JWU42> :/
 521 2013-01-27 03:04:08 <CodeShark> and 5.1 should work fine, too - only thing is upgraded wallets won't be compatible with 4.8 nodes
 522 2013-01-27 03:04:22 <CodeShark> but if you don't have any 4.8 nodes, I recommend using 5.1 :)
 523 2013-01-27 03:04:45 B0g4r7 has joined
 524 2013-01-27 03:04:53 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
 525 2013-01-27 03:05:19 <Luke-Jr> thankfully bdb is going away soon, so there won't be any need to upgrade beyond 4.8
 526 2013-01-27 03:06:10 <CodeShark> couldn't have happened soon enough
 527 2013-01-27 03:07:28 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 528 2013-01-27 03:07:36 <CodeShark> Eliel: I suppose any sane investor understands the high risk nature of the game
 529 2013-01-27 03:09:01 <CodeShark> and if you can't afford to take the loss without it hurting your personal finances it's probably not a game you should be playing :)
 530 2013-01-27 03:09:14 <CodeShark> but I hope things turn out well for you
 531 2013-01-27 03:09:46 <sipa> once bitcoind does not depend on bdb anymore, i think i'm going to ritually purge it from my hard drive
 532 2013-01-27 03:09:55 <CodeShark> haha, sipa
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 536 2013-01-27 03:30:43 <JWU42> damn
 537 2013-01-27 03:30:56 <JWU42> cannot get the blockchain to copy over without coredump
 538 2013-01-27 03:31:06 * JWU42 grumbles
 539 2013-01-27 03:31:18 <gmaxwell> JWU42: you must cleantly shut down with detachdb before moving the databases.
 540 2013-01-27 03:31:29 <JWU42> gmaxwell: this I do know
 541 2013-01-27 03:31:43 <gmaxwell> (ah note: I didn't look at the scrollback, sorry if I'm being clueless)
 542 2013-01-27 03:31:45 <JWU42> but understand the need for saying so
 543 2013-01-27 03:32:14 <JWU42> oh well - will waste the night away getting the blockchain
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 552 2013-01-27 04:08:02 <JWU42> well - this new rig has a larger blockchain than two others
 553 2013-01-27 04:08:13 <JWU42> went up to blk004
 554 2013-01-27 04:08:25 <JWU42> other two rigs stop at blk003
 555 2013-01-27 04:10:19 <gmaxwell> sounds like you deleted the indexes without deleting the blockfiles.
 556 2013-01-27 04:11:09 <JWU42> yep
 557 2013-01-27 04:11:16 <JWU42> might have
 558 2013-01-27 04:11:23 <JWU42> brain is fried
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 587 2013-01-27 06:14:35 <etotheipi_> in "getpeerinfo" what is "startingheight"?
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 589 2013-01-27 06:15:15 <etotheipi_> I would expect it to be that peer's latest block, but they are all quite different (and all more than 500 blocks old)
 590 2013-01-27 06:15:29 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: they are the height the peer reported in their version messag on connect.
 591 2013-01-27 06:15:41 <etotheipi_> ooh
 592 2013-01-27 06:15:53 <etotheipi_> so is that essentially an "age" of the connection?
 593 2013-01-27 06:17:26 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: what criteria does Bitcoin-Qt use to show the checkmark (fully sync'd)?
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 595 2013-01-27 06:21:00 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: fuzzy memory at 1am.. uhh.. I think it's the latest block has a timestamp within the last two hours.
 596 2013-01-27 06:21:53 <etotheipi_> not the "median topblock of 11 peers" criteria?
 597 2013-01-27 06:22:21 <gmaxwell> (generally we want to avoid griefing... someone making nodes show that they're not synced can be astonishingly distruptive— people will spaz out and do all kinds of awful things to their nodes when they show out of sync (we used to trigger it after a half hour or something short like that))
 598 2013-01-27 06:22:53 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: no thats used produce the estimate in the download progress bar, but that gets hidden when its too close.
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 639 2013-01-27 10:07:32 <ThomasV> 0100000001aca7f3b45654c230e0886a57fb988c3044ef5e8f7f39726d305c61d5e818903c0000000017a914f815b036d9bbbce5e9f2a00abd1bf3dc91e9551087ffffffff0140420f00000000001976a914ae56b4db13554d321c402db3961187aed1bbed5b88ac0000000001000000
 640 2013-01-27 10:08:03 <kuzetsa> yikes ---> [22:52:58] <@gmaxwell> sounds like you deleted the indexes without deleting the blockfiles.
 641 2013-01-27 10:08:06 <ThomasV> is this the correct string that I need to verify, in gavinandresen's p2sh example?
 642 2013-01-27 10:08:17 <kuzetsa> so it just started adding blocks blindly to the blk00x files?
 643 2013-01-27 10:08:37 <ThomasV> I'm refering to this example: https://gist.github.com/3966071
 644 2013-01-27 10:09:22 <ThomasV> I'm trying to verify the signatures, with no success
 645 2013-01-27 10:10:28 <petertodd> ThomasV: something is wrong in your script, notice how the scriptSig for the txin is set to OP_HASH160 f815b036d9bbbce5e9f2a00abd1bf3dc91e95510 OP_EQUAL? basically it doesn't have a signature at all
 646 2013-01-27 10:10:50 <petertodd> what's tx 3c9018e8d5615c306d72397f8f5eef44308c98fb576a88e030c25456b4f3a7ac? I don't see it in my mempool
 647 2013-01-27 10:12:30 <ThomasV> petertodd: no, I am trying to verify the signature, so that's normal
 648 2013-01-27 10:13:03 <ThomasV> petertodd: http://blockchain.info/tx-index/30888901
 649 2013-01-27 10:13:30 <ThomasV> well, the input is http://blockchain.info/tx-index/30888899/0
 650 2013-01-27 10:14:49 <ThomasV> I am learning how to build a multisig transaction, so I want to know which string I need to sign. from what I understand, it is the string I pasted above
 651 2013-01-27 10:14:56 <ThomasV> but it does not work
 652 2013-01-27 10:16:01 <ThomasV> I am mostly relying on https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png
 653 2013-01-27 10:16:03 <petertodd> try looking at 837dea37ddc8b1e3ce646f1a656e79bbd8cc7f558ac56a169626d649ebe2a3ba, which does spend that input, and you'll see what I mean
 654 2013-01-27 10:16:29 <petertodd> remember the scriptSig is what is being provided to the scriptPubKey; your tx has a scriptPubKey as the scriptSig
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 657 2013-01-27 10:17:59 <ThomasV> petertodd: I extracted the signatures from 837dea37ddc8b1e3ce646f1a656e79bbd8cc7f558ac56a169626d649ebe2a3ba, and I am trying to verify them...
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 659 2013-01-27 10:19:00 <petertodd> ah, so that tx you pasted, where did that come from?
 660 2013-01-27 10:19:10 <ThomasV> petertodd: what I pasted is not a tx, it is what is getting verified (step 10 on the figure)
 661 2013-01-27 10:19:23 <petertodd> ah, I missed that part of the conversation then
 662 2013-01-27 10:19:36 <ThomasV> :)
 663 2013-01-27 10:19:47 <ThomasV> <ThomasV> I am learning how to build a multisig transaction, so I want to know which string I need to sign. from what I understand, it is the string I pasted above
 664 2013-01-27 10:20:06 <ThomasV> so, I made it manually
 665 2013-01-27 10:20:15 <ThomasV> but all verifications fail
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 667 2013-01-27 10:20:30 <ThomasV> I must have missed something, and I don't know what
 668 2013-01-27 10:21:27 <petertodd> yeah, I don't understand checksig quite well enough to comment
 669 2013-01-27 10:21:46 <petertodd> myself I'd get out a debugger and look into what's going on at that level
 670 2013-01-27 10:22:00 <ThomasV> lol
 671 2013-01-27 10:22:18 <petertodd> I think pynode can verify p2sh too, which may be an easier way to debug
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 673 2013-01-27 10:36:09 <ThomasV> ok, I'll try pynode
 674 2013-01-27 10:36:10 <ThomasV> bbl
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 678 2013-01-27 10:53:29 <sipa> kuzetsa: 0.7 and before always just append, indeed
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 683 2013-01-27 11:01:19 <sipa> anyone know whether posix_fallocate is available on OSX/BSD ?
 684 2013-01-27 11:02:56 <SomeoneWeird> i've heard you have to pay to use that on OSX
 685 2013-01-27 11:02:57 <SomeoneWeird> >.>
 686 2013-01-27 11:03:37 <Scrat> yep, $0.999999999 per call
 687 2013-01-27 11:03:50 <Scrat> because we're too cool to make it cost 1 dollar
 688 2013-01-27 11:05:54 <sipa> loi
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 694 2013-01-27 11:28:18 <CodeShark> sipa, I can try to compile and run a test program if you want
 695 2013-01-27 11:28:43 <CodeShark> I'm guessing it is available
 696 2013-01-27 11:28:55 <CodeShark> since OS X is practically 100% posix compliant
 697 2013-01-27 11:29:28 <sipa> CodeShark: a short tour on the interwebz colnvinced me it's not available on either
 698 2013-01-27 11:29:37 <CodeShark> hmm
 699 2013-01-27 11:31:50 <SomeoneWeird> {OSX,BSD}--
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 701 2013-01-27 11:34:01 <CodeShark> there must be a way to hack something equivalent, sipa
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 703 2013-01-27 11:37:53 <sipa> sure, we already have the hack: writing zeroes to the file
 704 2013-01-27 11:39:29 <Scrat> hm, doesn't leveldb handle that?
 705 2013-01-27 11:39:48 <sipa> this is about the block files
 706 2013-01-27 11:40:34 <sipa> which are not handled by a database
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 789 2013-01-27 16:36:13 <jgarzik> I love the Avalon-ASICs-shipped thread
 790 2013-01-27 16:36:24 <jgarzik> the trolls are now questioning whether or not I exist
 791 2013-01-27 16:36:43 <sipa> well did you receive anything? :p
 792 2013-01-27 16:36:57 <jgarzik> jgarzik ASIC arrival FAQ of the day, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137534.msg1478626#msg1478626
 793 2013-01-27 16:37:04 * jgarzik pastes :)
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 796 2013-01-27 16:38:18 <sipa> jgarzik: ok so we can infer either Avalon doesn't exist, or you don't!
 797 2013-01-27 16:43:47 <MC1984> cartesian trolling
 798 2013-01-27 16:44:46 owowo has joined
 799 2013-01-27 16:45:27 <jgarzik> hah
 800 2013-01-27 16:49:08 <MC1984> did you get the thing yet
 801 2013-01-27 16:54:11 <sipa> lol
 802 2013-01-27 16:56:52 <MC1984> oh wow its being shipped from china
 803 2013-01-27 16:57:04 twobitcoins has joined
 804 2013-01-27 16:57:25 <MC1984> mysterious ASIC circitury shipped from the reds to a seemingly unassuming american software developer
 805 2013-01-27 16:57:51 <MC1984> enjoy your watchlist
 806 2013-01-27 17:00:29 twobitcoins_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 807 2013-01-27 17:01:10 * jgarzik posts a history lesson, a nothing-new-has-happened Avalon ASIC update: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137534.msg1483252#msg1483252
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 810 2013-01-27 17:01:59 <MC1984> lol yeah
 811 2013-01-27 17:02:03 <jgarzik> sadly, I imagine I've been noticed by the FBI, DEA and others simply because I am listed as a bitcoin core developer
 812 2013-01-27 17:02:34 <MC1984> the forum is so retarded sometimes it wraps right the fuck back around into philisophical and insightful
 813 2013-01-27 17:02:42 <D34TH> jgarzik, why not request a copy of your file?
 814 2013-01-27 17:02:53 <jgarzik> D34TH: I've long thought I should
 815 2013-01-27 17:03:04 <D34TH> its free until 30+ pages
 816 2013-01-27 17:03:20 <MC1984> jgarzik humour is the most common way people make themselves feel better about very real situations
 817 2013-01-27 17:03:22 <TD> i doubt there's any file
 818 2013-01-27 17:03:23 <D34TH> mine is full of stuff i hope never reaches the light of day
 819 2013-01-27 17:03:56 <MC1984> re: electronics from the reds, see the huwai network equipment hooha
 820 2013-01-27 17:04:02 <D34TH> that was worded poorly
 821 2013-01-27 17:04:08 <D34TH> now i seem really bad
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 823 2013-01-27 17:04:30 <MC1984> we all got secrets
 824 2013-01-27 17:04:31 <jgarzik> MC1984: indeed
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 826 2013-01-27 17:05:10 <D34TH> MC1984: lets put it this way. I was young, dumb, and had access and know how to make people mad.
 827 2013-01-27 17:05:14 <jgarzik> TD: did you see the FBI report on bitcoin that was leaked?  Someone obviously spent a lot of time researching the details.  It was quite accurate, and not damning at all IMNSHO.
 828 2013-01-27 17:05:23 <TD> i did
 829 2013-01-27 17:05:40 <MC1984> jgarzik they dont have to spin up the hysteria so much internally, presumably
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 831 2013-01-27 17:07:12 <sipa> well it means at least some division inside the FBI is interested
 832 2013-01-27 17:07:56 <MC1984> they should be interested about how useful it would be to them
 833 2013-01-27 17:11:04 <TD> for what?
 834 2013-01-27 17:12:49 <kjj> yeah, FBI doesn't care about money
 835 2013-01-27 17:13:29 couchpotato is now known as v1rtex
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 843 2013-01-27 18:07:31 <petertodd> jgarzik: for your safety, if the FBI ever asks me, I'm telling them I have no concrete proof that you exist
 844 2013-01-27 18:08:52 <MC1984> theres no concrete proof that anyone exists, man
 845 2013-01-27 18:09:23 <MC1984> oh wait i made that joke 2 hours ago
 846 2013-01-27 18:10:30 <petertodd> MC1984: you mean, the irc chatbot MC1984 doesn't initialize its PRNG correctly, and was restarted?
 847 2013-01-27 18:10:58 <MC1984> yes i did
 848 2013-01-27 18:11:01 <MC1984> how was your day?
 849 2013-01-27 18:11:16 <petertodd> ACCESSING MEMORY BANKS: good
 850 2013-01-27 18:11:57 <MC1984> im glad you think so!
 851 2013-01-27 18:12:21 <petertodd> lol
 852 2013-01-27 18:12:23 <petertodd> nah,
 853 2013-01-27 18:12:52 <petertodd> I was pissing around with my new testnet-seeder; I can see why no-one has gotten one up yet, it's surprisingly easy to get sucked into silly sysadmin stuff with it
 854 2013-01-27 18:13:16 cardpuncher has joined
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 856 2013-01-27 18:14:00 <sipa> PC LOAD LETTER
 857 2013-01-27 18:14:16 <sipa> petertodd: poke me if you have problems
 858 2013-01-27 18:14:28 <MC1984> Could you rephrase the question?
 859 2013-01-27 18:15:44 <petertodd> sipa: will do. I setup some thing to get it loaded within a screen session - how do you leave yours running? it doesn't exactly have a --daemon switch
 860 2013-01-27 18:18:27 etotheipi_ has joined
 861 2013-01-27 18:18:29 <sipa> petertodd: yeah, mine runs in a screen as well
 862 2013-01-27 18:19:01 <sipa> there's sort of a bug where it tends to be become very slow/locked up after a while
 863 2013-01-27 18:19:19 <sipa> i've been wanting to rewrite a part of it, but hasn't happened so far
 864 2013-01-27 18:19:37 <petertodd> huh, how long is awhile?
 865 2013-01-27 18:19:42 <sipa> weeks, maybe
 866 2013-01-27 18:20:03 <petertodd> a weekly reboot is probably fine then
 867 2013-01-27 18:20:04 <sipa> rather days probably
 868 2013-01-27 18:20:18 <sipa> seems to be worse if you have many crawler threads
 869 2013-01-27 18:20:19 <petertodd> ok, daily reboot :P
 870 2013-01-27 18:20:27 <petertodd> it's not a memleak right?
 871 2013-01-27 18:20:30 <sipa> no
 872 2013-01-27 18:20:35 <RBecker> petertodd: there's a way to send a program to background without screen
 873 2013-01-27 18:20:59 <sipa> petertodd: mine uses 120 MiB RES memory now, after a few days
 874 2013-01-27 18:21:02 <petertodd> RBecker: yeah, but screen lets you see the output of the program
 875 2013-01-27 18:21:15 <sipa> petertodd: for mainnet, with 422k IPs loaded
 876 2013-01-27 18:21:15 <RBecker> and this program logs it all to a file
 877 2013-01-27 18:21:41 <petertodd> RBecker: nohup? see, sipa's seeder gives output every second, you don't want that all logged
 878 2013-01-27 18:21:51 <RBecker> yeah, was thinking nohup
 879 2013-01-27 18:21:53 <petertodd> sipa: ah, testnet might not exhibit the problem
 880 2013-01-27 18:21:58 <sipa> perhaps not
 881 2013-01-27 18:22:34 <petertodd> sipa: I started an instance on mainnet w/o DNS to collect my own uptime data; I'll see how it does
 882 2013-01-27 18:22:55 <petertodd> sipa: also, I was thinking you could expose Tor addrs with CNAME, as you've probably already thought of...
 883 2013-01-27 18:24:01 <sipa> petertodd: yes, but it would mean adding a dns resolver to bitcoin
 884 2013-01-27 18:24:19 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 885 2013-01-27 18:24:24 <sipa> and the normal system resolver doesn't expose cname's
 886 2013-01-27 18:24:38 <petertodd> sipa: good point :(
 887 2013-01-27 18:24:57 <sipa> petertodd: what would work is embedding it in an AAAA record onioncat-style
 888 2013-01-27 18:25:05 <sipa> like is done on the P2P network
 889 2013-01-27 18:25:52 daybyter has joined
 890 2013-01-27 18:25:53 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, might lead to some odd issues with dns filtering though, could be worth a try on testnet first though
 891 2013-01-27 18:27:47 <gmaxwell> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5124784
 892 2013-01-27 18:27:59 <gmaxwell> ('China does man-in-the-middle attack on Github')
 893 2013-01-27 18:30:28 <petertodd> gmaxwell: scary... I've been thinking it might be a worthwhile exercise to timestamp commit hashes for the bitcoin repo, so you'd at least be able to say things like "well, if bitcoin has been tojaned, it's been done recently", similarly for devel gpg keys (which I actually already timestamped awhile back)
 894 2013-01-27 18:30:43 <petertodd> gmaxwell: you need a clean copy of bitcoind to begin with, but only once
 895 2013-01-27 18:31:04 <Diablo-D3> [01:10:36] <gmaxwell> ('China does man-in-the-middle attack on Github')
 896 2013-01-27 18:31:09 <Diablo-D3> doesnt github use https religiously?
 897 2013-01-27 18:31:25 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: they're MITMing the HTTPS, thats why this is detectable.
 898 2013-01-27 18:31:33 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit china =/
 899 2013-01-27 18:32:11 <gmaxwell> without https you couldn't even tell they were doing it.
 900 2013-01-27 18:32:37 <Diablo-D3> time to switch to ipsec I think
 901 2013-01-27 18:33:13 <petertodd> china makes ipsec traffic slow and annoying these days
 902 2013-01-27 18:33:31 <Diablo-D3> good, it'll be that much closer to a revolution then
 903 2013-01-27 18:33:41 <petertodd> it's a general strategy of making communicating privately and organizing inconvenient
 904 2013-01-27 18:34:09 <Diablo-D3> yes, and when most major sites in the world enable ipsec?
 905 2013-01-27 18:34:20 <Diablo-D3> china is then disconnected from the internet forever and everyone is happy
 906 2013-01-27 18:34:22 <petertodd> and they hold back just enough that a revolution isn't likely... sad to say, but they have succeeded in taming the web
 907 2013-01-27 18:34:40 <wizkid057> go china
 908 2013-01-27 18:34:55 <petertodd> how does ipsec help you if it's websites? that's the same as https
 909 2013-01-27 18:35:02 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 910 2013-01-27 18:35:10 <andytoshi> ;;bc,blocks
 911 2013-01-27 18:35:11 <gribble> 218313
 912 2013-01-27 18:35:36 k0rx has left ()
 913 2013-01-27 18:35:41 <wizkid057> ;;bc,stats
 914 2013-01-27 18:35:43 <gribble> Current Blocks: 218313 | Current Difficulty: 2968775.3320751 | Next Difficulty At Block: 219743 | Next Difficulty In: 1430 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 17 hours, 34 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 3035090.30936258 | Estimated Percent Change: 2.23374859562
 915 2013-01-27 18:38:30 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: signed and/or encrypted at IP layer with the option of using preshared keys
 916 2013-01-27 18:39:09 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
 917 2013-01-27 18:39:58 <petertodd> so what specifically is the advantage over https? you can preshare keys with https too (albeit UI support is terrible)
 918 2013-01-27 18:43:30 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: you cant mitm ipsec if done right
 919 2013-01-27 18:43:35 <Diablo-D3> https probably will never be done right
 920 2013-01-27 18:44:54 <petertodd> why don't you think you can mitm ipsec? you an mitm any encryption system when the other side doesn't have a way of verifying the key
 921 2013-01-27 18:45:39 <Diablo-D3> what if we switch to a standard where the key can be generated using a known passphrase, such as the domain name itself
 922 2013-01-27 18:46:07 <petertodd> the private key, or the public key?
 923 2013-01-27 18:46:18 <Diablo-D3> public
 924 2013-01-27 18:46:29 <petertodd> so if you do that, how do you generate the private key?
 925 2013-01-27 18:46:40 <petertodd> private->public is possible, public->private not...
 926 2013-01-27 18:46:50 <Diablo-D3> private->public using brute force?
 927 2013-01-27 18:47:01 <petertodd> but if that's possible, what value is the public key?
 928 2013-01-27 18:47:15 <Diablo-D3> because they wont have the private key
 929 2013-01-27 18:47:19 <Diablo-D3> thus cant fake it
 930 2013-01-27 18:47:37 <petertodd> yeah, but they just see a public key weak enough to brute force, and brute force it themselves
 931 2013-01-27 18:47:59 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 932 2013-01-27 18:48:00 <petertodd> (incedentally, Freenet *does* use encryption by the 'domain name' itself, but that's a special case...)
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 934 2013-01-27 18:48:22 <Diablo-D3> I dont know. We just need a useful oob method for sharing the key
 935 2013-01-27 18:49:05 <petertodd> well, we have one, they're called certificate authorities... web of trust has proven itself to be a failure in non-tech communities
 936 2013-01-27 18:49:24 <Diablo-D3> yes, but we allow nontrustworthy entities become certificate authorities
 937 2013-01-27 18:49:39 <Diablo-D3> and browsers arent as safe as, say, ssh with key signatures
 938 2013-01-27 18:49:40 <petertodd> you can boost the security of CA's with alternate mechanisms like sticky keys and what not, and tamperproof logging
 939 2013-01-27 18:50:13 <petertodd> what makes you think ssh is actually safe? people accept ssh key changes all the time
 940 2013-01-27 18:50:17 <Diablo-D3> yes, but there are chinese CAs that are allowed to produce certs for non-.ch domains
 941 2013-01-27 18:50:26 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: well
 942 2013-01-27 18:50:32 <Diablo-D3> if a remote server is tampered with, I know about it
 943 2013-01-27 18:51:02 <petertodd> yeah, the non-.ch thing is a big issue, but that's fixable with restrictions, politically hard though... more realistic is the tamperproof logging stuff probably
 944 2013-01-27 18:51:33 <petertodd> only because ssh has sticky keys, and that can be added to https, and people are working on that
 945 2013-01-27 18:51:37 <Diablo-D3> politically its not hard, just do it and let them sink
 946 2013-01-27 18:51:53 <petertodd> (chrome special-cases google's https keys for instance)
 947 2013-01-27 18:52:22 <petertodd> making CA's secure is politically hard because politics has an interest in them not being too secure
 948 2013-01-27 18:52:24 <Diablo-D3> yeah, if browsers shipped with a list of server certs for well known sites it'd fix a lot of issues
 949 2013-01-27 18:52:38 <petertodd> chrome does that!
 950 2013-01-27 18:52:45 <Diablo-D3> chrome does it for google domains
 951 2013-01-27 18:52:53 <gmaxwell> petertodd: naively implemented sticky keys just prevent proper key managment, replacing one problem with another.
 952 2013-01-27 18:53:02 <petertodd> actually, I just looked, it's open to more than just google domains
 953 2013-01-27 18:53:08 <Diablo-D3> chrome and firefox would need to do it for at least 3 key signature verifying servers
 954 2013-01-27 18:53:16 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yup, it's *why* people click through ssh key changes
 955 2013-01-27 18:53:32 <Diablo-D3> one would need to be google's, one would need to be mozilla's, and one would have to be an interested third party (apple? microsoft?)
 956 2013-01-27 18:53:36 <gmaxwell> petertodd: they don't pin the certs themselves IIRC, they pin the CA keys for them.
 957 2013-01-27 18:53:49 <petertodd> gmaxwell: but that's a UI problem, and, for instance, sticky keys + survailance (without user visibility at first) is one option
 958 2013-01-27 18:54:18 <petertodd> gmaxwell: IE, if the key changes, notify the owner somehow, and retain an option to have the owner disallow
 959 2013-01-27 18:54:21 <Diablo-D3> it'd only need to store the signature of the cert
 960 2013-01-27 18:54:33 <gmaxwell> petertodd: its an insoluable one— making it so that users are used to clicking past is why this china thing works.
 961 2013-01-27 18:54:35 <Diablo-D3> ssl sents the cert chain on connection init or some shit like that
 962 2013-01-27 18:54:46 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: my browser doesnt even alert me
 963 2013-01-27 18:55:00 <petertodd> gmaxwell: right, and that's why I said *don't* notify the users, accept that a small number will be screwed over
 964 2013-01-27 18:55:03 <Diablo-D3> it'd be a big step up if it did
 965 2013-01-27 18:55:30 <gmaxwell> petertodd: Ah, I see what you're saying.
 966 2013-01-27 18:55:37 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: wait, who do you want SSL to send the chain to?
 967 2013-01-27 18:55:46 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: thats not what I mean
 968 2013-01-27 18:56:00 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Google's running a SSL cert survailance program apparently doing something like that.
 969 2013-01-27 18:56:03 <Diablo-D3> a remote verifying server would only need to store the signature of the server cert and the date of expiry of the cert
 970 2013-01-27 18:56:09 <gmaxwell> Some of the google folks wrote a spec for pinning a CA signing key per key with a pinning duration field— so you could keep the signing key offline and still rotate keys.... but afaik that proposal has gone nowhere.
 971 2013-01-27 18:56:40 <Diablo-D3> a browser then could use built in server keys to that remote verifying server and then check the server key
 972 2013-01-27 18:56:42 <petertodd> Yeah, that's a good proposal too. the EFF had some with hash chains of certs too I thought?
 973 2013-01-27 18:56:44 <Diablo-D3> er, server cert
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 976 2013-01-27 18:57:21 <petertodd> All the proposals do have the disadvantage that they make it easier to get into a situation where the SSL certs for your site are all hosed of course... but competent sysadmins are an option.
 977 2013-01-27 18:57:40 <Diablo-D3> SSL doesnt allow cert killing?
 978 2013-01-27 18:57:57 <petertodd> yes, it's called revocation, but no-one operates revocation servers that actually work
 979 2013-01-27 18:58:10 <Diablo-D3> then google, mozilla, and another third party would need to
 980 2013-01-27 18:58:16 <Diablo-D3> as part of the solution
 981 2013-01-27 18:58:38 <petertodd> Revocation servers need very good uptime and to be effective, and cert authorities would rather just ignore the issue.
 982 2013-01-27 18:58:58 <Diablo-D3> yes, thus google and mozilla could fix this
 983 2013-01-27 18:59:13 <Diablo-D3> have revocation servers, have verify servers
 984 2013-01-27 18:59:30 Guest62759 has quit (Read error: No route to host)
 985 2013-01-27 18:59:34 <petertodd> Which means google and mozilla have a switch to turn the https internet off...
 986 2013-01-27 18:59:42 bitnumus_ has joined
 987 2013-01-27 18:59:44 <Diablo-D3> yup, they do
 988 2013-01-27 18:59:56 <petertodd> And I'll bet you we'd see the likes of China just blocking access to the revocation servers from day 1.
 989 2013-01-27 18:59:56 <Diablo-D3> the eff would probably have to also manage a server as well
 990 2013-01-27 18:59:56 Guest62759 has joined
 991 2013-01-27 19:00:10 <Diablo-D3> yup, and then china cant browse the internet
 992 2013-01-27 19:00:18 <Diablo-D3> because both mozilla and google will push for https everywhere
 993 2013-01-27 19:00:30 <petertodd> No, then chinese people disable the revocation server feature of Mozilla and go on with their insecure lives.
 994 2013-01-27 19:00:33 <Diablo-D3> and then eventually remove http support in some form
 995 2013-01-27 19:01:18 <petertodd> before they do that they could at least silently accept non-self-signed certs (with no change in the UI experience)
 996 2013-01-27 19:01:33 <petertodd> Ridiculous that hasn't been done yet...
 997 2013-01-27 19:01:45 <Diablo-D3> I dont understand why the internet wasnt built securely to begin with
 998 2013-01-27 19:02:26 <petertodd> The internet as we know it was designed in the early 90's; back then encryption was actually slow.
 999 2013-01-27 19:02:37 <petertodd> People used to use 384bit RSA keys, for speed!
1000 2013-01-27 19:03:49 <Diablo-D3> so?
1001 2013-01-27 19:03:51 <Diablo-D3> thats no excuse
1002 2013-01-27 19:05:16 <petertodd> it's a damn good excuse: too slow, don't even know if it works, how is this going to help us market our product?
1003 2013-01-27 19:05:30 <petertodd> selling good excryption as a feature is really hard
1004 2013-01-27 19:06:24 <kjj> selling is easy.  making is hard
1005 2013-01-27 19:07:24 osmosis has joined
1006 2013-01-27 19:07:30 <kjj> what usually happens is that auditors make compliance checks, and make sure you are using a certified algorithm, so you pay a lot for it.
1007 2013-01-27 19:07:36 <petertodd> no, selling is hard too, people don't understand why it's worth it "I've never been hacked", and when they do understand they want it, they have no way of determining what security is or isn't snakeoil
1008 2013-01-27 19:08:32 <petertodd> anyway, I gotta go out into the real world :P later
1009 2013-01-27 19:08:32 <kjj> there are now laws and regulations everywhere, and auditors too.
1010 2013-01-27 19:08:53 <Diablo-D3> but how do you know you've never been hacked if you're not secure?
1011 2013-01-27 19:18:41 bitnumus_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1013 2013-01-27 19:21:56 <etotheipi_> sipa: gmaxwell: Bitcoin-Qt shows the download status bar with the number of blocks left to download... is this data available in some way from the RPC interface?
1014 2013-01-27 19:22:40 <etotheipi_> if I'm going to bundle/manage bitcoind, I'd like to be able to notify the user how much download is left, just like if they were using bitcoin-qt
1015 2013-01-27 19:23:28 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: it's only a vague guess, and it's hidden when it gets close to current.  No, not in the rpc. You could estimate it yourself the same with bitcoind does, getpeerinfo median of starting heights.
1016 2013-01-27 19:23:34 <MC1984> that bar means nothing though
1017 2013-01-27 19:23:38 <MC1984> because blocks arnt equal
1018 2013-01-27 19:23:46 b4epoche has joined
1019 2013-01-27 19:24:20 <MC1984> it wouldnt be so bad if its progess could be made linear somehow
1020 2013-01-27 19:24:35 <MC1984> lots of people come in here assuming bitcoin is actually stuck
1021 2013-01-27 19:24:59 <etotheipi_> that's fine... I know it's not exact
1022 2013-01-27 19:25:10 <etotheipi_> I was planning to do something similar
1023 2013-01-27 19:25:13 <kjj> it would be nice if there was a way to find out if bitcoin thinks it is current or not
1024 2013-01-27 19:25:14 <etotheipi_> assume it's within 100 blocks or something
1025 2013-01-27 19:25:22 paraipan has joined
1026 2013-01-27 19:25:45 <sipa> etotheipi_: it's not within 100 blocks
1027 2013-01-27 19:26:00 <etotheipi_> "startingheight" tells you the starting height of the *peer* when you first connect? or your own top block
1028 2013-01-27 19:26:04 <sipa> etotheipi_: it's either the last checkpoint (in which case it can be 10000's off) or pretty accurate
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1030 2013-01-27 19:26:38 <etotheipi_> sipa: hmmm
1031 2013-01-27 19:26:40 <sipa> but peers can lie, and before there are enough, the value they claim is ignored, i think
1032 2013-01-27 19:26:52 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: Of your peer, as I said before: it's the height they report in their version message.
1033 2013-01-27 19:27:33 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1034 2013-01-27 19:27:47 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: okay, thanks
1035 2013-01-27 19:27:53 <gmaxwell> kjj: bitcoin doesn't really have an opinion about being current. The UI has some heuristics but it's not used for anything except the ui.
1036 2013-01-27 19:28:07 <kjj> yeah.  I gave up on trying to figure it out
1037 2013-01-27 19:28:16 <etotheipi_> sounds like I might have to create a heuristic combining multiple information sources
1038 2013-01-27 19:28:25 <kjj> back in the day, I used to lose hours of mining to it, but I don't think I do any more
1039 2013-01-27 19:28:26 <etotheipi_> well, one real source, but multiple features
1040 2013-01-27 19:28:28 bitnumus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1041 2013-01-27 19:28:36 <gmaxwell> it's somewhat intractable at least if you want to know precisely.
1042 2013-01-27 19:28:47 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I don't need to know precisely
1043 2013-01-27 19:28:55 <gmaxwell> And it's risky to report non-current to users because it makes them freak out.
1044 2013-01-27 19:28:59 <etotheipi_> unless precise means "within 1000 blocks"
1045 2013-01-27 19:29:12 <kjj> my application is a self-contained p2pool distribution
1046 2013-01-27 19:29:22 <sipa> the best heuristic is probably taking the last block's timestamp, and adding one block per 10 minutes clock time after that
1047 2013-01-27 19:29:30 <gmaxwell> kjj: p2pool can tell you when bitcoin is non-current)
1048 2013-01-27 19:29:33 <kjj> it waits until bitcoind stops reporting that it is downloading, and then starts p2pool
1049 2013-01-27 19:29:33 <etotheipi_> sipa: exactly
1050 2013-01-27 19:29:53 <etotheipi_> I was planning to use "getwork" to tell when it's really not sync'd (error code=-1
1051 2013-01-27 19:29:57 <etotheipi_> *=-10)
1052 2013-01-27 19:30:17 <kjj> gmaxwell: it doesn't seem to.  I had ~3 hours of 100% stales the other day because my bitcoind wasn't current and p2pool didn't notice
1053 2013-01-27 19:30:27 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: uh. that only tells you if you're below the checkpoint IIRC.
1054 2013-01-27 19:30:28 <etotheipi_> and after that, look to see if the last block was within the last day
1055 2013-01-27 19:30:47 <gmaxwell> kjj: p2pool will agressivly log SKIPPING BLOCK during that time.
1056 2013-01-27 19:30:56 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: will bitcoind respond with top-block information while it is rapidly downloading and sync'ing?
1057 2013-01-27 19:31:10 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: sure.
1058 2013-01-27 19:31:12 <kjj> meh.  I'm not so concerned about the logs, I'm concerned about the 100% stales
1059 2013-01-27 19:31:13 <etotheipi_> I just tried it, and it was like 5sec latency just calling for "getwork"
1060 2013-01-27 19:31:23 <sipa> etotheipi_: which version?
1061 2013-01-27 19:31:32 <gmaxwell> that sounds odd.
1062 2013-01-27 19:31:33 <etotheipi_> sipa: that was 0.72
1063 2013-01-27 19:31:36 <etotheipi_> err.. 0.71
1064 2013-01-27 19:31:38 <gmaxwell> oh.
1065 2013-01-27 19:32:16 <sipa> etotheipi_: there's a bulky global lock on the main data structures, and both block validation and RPC grab it
1066 2013-01-27 19:32:22 <etotheipi_> I have been running 0.8, but switched temporarily, becuase I needed an unsync'd bitcoind instance to test its response while sync'ing
1067 2013-01-27 19:32:29 FredEE has joined
1068 2013-01-27 19:32:42 BurtyB2 is now known as BurtyB
1069 2013-01-27 19:32:42 <sipa> etotheipi_: so if bitcoin is slow in verifying, it means it becomes slow in responding to RPCs too
1070 2013-01-27 19:32:52 <kjj> I just converted to bfgminer, and that seems to poll every pool up front, so it can tell if the preferred pool isn't current
1071 2013-01-27 19:33:11 <etotheipi_> maybe I'll just stick with timestamps
1072 2013-01-27 19:33:54 <andytoshi> TheBlueMatt, I'm having a bit of trouble with your test
1073 2013-01-27 19:34:15 bitnumus has joined
1074 2013-01-27 19:34:17 <andytoshi> I can connect to a remote node with "./bitcoind addnode 192.168.0.201 add"
1075 2013-01-27 19:34:24 <andytoshi> but after a minute or so, my debug.log show
1076 2013-01-27 19:34:33 <etotheipi_> so, "getblockcount" should immediately return what bitcoind's longest chain currently is?
1077 2013-01-27 19:34:37 <andytoshi> socket no message in first 60 seconds, 0 1
1078 2013-01-27 19:34:39 <andytoshi> disconnecting node 192.168.0.201:8333
1079 2013-01-27 19:34:58 <andytoshi> what needs to be set on the remote node to make it talk?
1080 2013-01-27 19:38:07 <etotheipi_> and "getpeerinfo" tells me the "getblockcount" of each current peer when we first connected to it
1081 2013-01-27 19:38:12 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1082 2013-01-27 19:40:19 <andytoshi> oh, the rpc passwords are different...probably that is the issue?
1083 2013-01-27 19:40:33 <kjj> no
1084 2013-01-27 19:40:50 <sipa> andytoshi: was the addnode rpc pulled?
1085 2013-01-27 19:41:06 <andytoshi> sipa: no, i'm jus testing it
1086 2013-01-27 19:41:10 <andytoshi> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1549#issuecomment-12611079
1087 2013-01-27 19:41:14 <sipa> ok
1088 2013-01-27 19:41:36 <sipa> andytoshi: what needs to be set on the other node... it should work
1089 2013-01-27 19:41:39 <sipa> that's about it
1090 2013-01-27 19:41:56 <andytoshi> well, it connects okay
1091 2013-01-27 19:42:05 <andytoshi> and reconnects after i kill/restart the remote node
1092 2013-01-27 19:42:07 <sipa> it clearly doesn't work, though
1093 2013-01-27 19:42:09 <andytoshi> it just disconnects after a minute
1094 2013-01-27 19:42:23 <andytoshi> alright, i'll post a comment
1095 2013-01-27 19:42:31 <sipa> is the other node working?
1096 2013-01-27 19:42:49 <sipa> does it have connections of its own?
1097 2013-01-27 19:42:53 <sipa> is it synchronized?
1098 2013-01-27 19:43:19 <andytoshi> the other node is synchronizing, about 1000 blocks behind
1099 2013-01-27 19:43:23 <andytoshi> at height=216358
1100 2013-01-27 19:43:36 <sipa> hmm
1101 2013-01-27 19:43:46 <andytoshi> the log is a flood of SetBestChains, i don't see anything else
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1103 2013-01-27 19:45:00 <sipa> only setbestchains?
1104 2013-01-27 19:45:05 <sipa> or also processblock?
1105 2013-01-27 19:45:05 <andytoshi> correct
1106 2013-01-27 19:45:18 <sipa> yes/no?
1107 2013-01-27 19:45:28 <andytoshi> there is no processblock
1108 2013-01-27 19:45:31 <andytoshi> i copied the blockchain from my main node
1109 2013-01-27 19:45:37 <sipa> that explains
1110 2013-01-27 19:45:45 <sipa> it's rebuilding the coin database, it's not up
1111 2013-01-27 19:45:50 <andytoshi> oh, cool
1112 2013-01-27 19:45:53 <andytoshi> my bad :}
1113 2013-01-27 19:46:12 <sipa> you copied blktree/ and blocks/, but not coins/ ?
1114 2013-01-27 19:46:19 <andytoshi> correct
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1116 2013-01-27 19:46:33 <sipa> yup, that's perfectly expected in that case :)
1117 2013-01-27 19:46:56 <andytoshi> excellent
1118 2013-01-27 19:48:44 <gmaxwell> hm. perhaps coins is poorly named and will be mistaken for the wallet.
1119 2013-01-27 19:49:16 <andytoshi> i thought, 'coins' somehow holds the history of all the addresses that bitcoind tracks
1120 2013-01-27 19:49:25 <andytoshi> and since i wasn't copying wallet.dat, i didn't want that history
1121 2013-01-27 19:49:34 <gmaxwell> ah ha!
1122 2013-01-27 19:49:36 <andytoshi> if that's correct, it's not misleading
1123 2013-01-27 19:49:47 <gmaxwell> thats not correct at all.
1124 2013-01-27 19:50:10 <gmaxwell> coins holds the unspent transaction set used to validate blocks— nothing to do with the wallet.
1125 2013-01-27 19:50:19 <gmaxwell> (It will rebuild it if lost)
1126 2013-01-27 19:50:32 <andytoshi> oh, i wouldn't have guessed that
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1134 2013-01-27 20:18:01 <sipa> also, bitcoin doesn't ever track addresses :)
1135 2013-01-27 20:20:13 Diapolo has joined
1136 2013-01-27 20:22:05 <andytoshi> i meant, the chain of txouts leading to any txout whose script requires it be signed with an address you own (?)
1137 2013-01-27 20:22:26 <sipa> any data related to you or your wallet is in wallet.dat
1138 2013-01-27 20:22:36 <sipa> and the only thing being tracked is unspent outputs
1139 2013-01-27 20:22:53 <andytoshi> oh, makes sense
1140 2013-01-27 20:22:59 <sipa> as those are validated as the chain is verified, the wallet only gets to see transactions that are verified
1141 2013-01-27 20:23:04 <sipa> so no need to track anything there
1142 2013-01-27 20:23:39 <andytoshi> oh, of course
1143 2013-01-27 20:32:04 <Diapolo> sipa: are there new files with -txindex or is that index created IN the existing files
1144 2013-01-27 20:32:18 <sipa> Diapolo: in blktree/
1145 2013-01-27 20:34:43 <sipa> andytoshi: blocks+blktree contains all information about the block tree (so, all blocks whose ancestry from genesis is known) and where they are store
1146 2013-01-27 20:35:01 <sipa> andytoshi: coins contains all information about the currently active best chain through the block tree
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1148 2013-01-27 20:35:23 <andytoshi> okay, cool
1149 2013-01-27 20:35:25 <sipa> they're generally independent, so you can copy them separately
1150 2013-01-27 20:35:32 <sipa> and unknowingly, you did that :p
1151 2013-01-27 20:35:42 <andytoshi> if you consider renaming it, 'chain' would maybe be better than 'coins'
1152 2013-01-27 20:35:54 <sipa> but it contains no chain
1153 2013-01-27 20:35:59 <andytoshi> but i'm glad everything is well -- you can consider that a test of separate copying
1154 2013-01-27 20:36:08 <sipa> just all state information relating to the currently best chain
1155 2013-01-27 20:36:31 <sipa> (which means a list of unspent transaction outputs, aka coins)
1156 2013-01-27 20:36:47 <andytoshi> yeah, i see where 'coins' comes from
1157 2013-01-27 20:37:13 <andytoshi> maybe blkbest/ or blkhead/
1158 2013-01-27 20:37:34 <sipa> it contains nothing relating to blocks :)
1159 2013-01-27 20:37:38 <gmaxwell> 'chainhead' ?
1160 2013-01-27 20:37:54 <andytoshi> haha, this is hard
1161 2013-01-27 20:37:57 <sipa> chainhead or chaintip or utxos or state or ...
1162 2013-01-27 20:38:41 <andytoshi> open_uxtos?
1163 2013-01-27 20:39:04 <gmaxwell> I like it having 'chain' in it because even though it doesn't contain the chain that at least means something to the user.
1164 2013-01-27 20:39:05 <sipa> the u in utxo means unspent :)
1165 2013-01-27 20:39:29 <andytoshi> oh :P
1166 2013-01-27 20:39:37 <gmaxwell> utxo is opaque, and when you learn it means unspent transactions its misleanding "oh thats my coins" :P
1167 2013-01-27 20:39:57 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1168 2013-01-27 20:40:13 <andytoshi> i think it's okay if it's opaque, as long as it doesn't suggest that it's wallet-related
1169 2013-01-27 20:41:06 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: I think unspent implies that it's wallet related.
1170 2013-01-27 20:41:14 <gmaxwell> (in the same way 'coins' did)
1171 2013-01-27 20:41:52 <andytoshi> hmm, yeah
1172 2013-01-27 20:42:19 <gmaxwell> chaintip chainbest chainhead chainsum chaincheck chainagg chainvalid  all sound okay to me (note the theme?)
1173 2013-01-27 20:42:46 <sipa> why is cha invalid?
1174 2013-01-27 20:42:53 <andytoshi> haha
1175 2013-01-27 20:43:16 <andytoshi> i think chainbest is the most suggestive
1176 2013-01-27 20:43:47 <andytoshi> we could say something like 'leaf_txos', but nobody uses the term "leaf txo" so that's not really understandable
1177 2013-01-27 20:44:49 <sipa> sum_of_the_remainder_of_an_equation_inherent_to_the_programming_of_the_chain
1178 2013-01-27 20:45:14 <andytoshi> haha
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1180 2013-01-27 20:45:34 <gmaxwell> But it's not unbalanced!
1181 2013-01-27 20:45:39 <andytoshi> dont_copy_me_but_dont_delete_me_either
1182 2013-01-27 20:45:55 <sipa> there is maybe something important
1183 2013-01-27 20:46:03 <sipa> copying blocks/ and blktree/ is always safe
1184 2013-01-27 20:46:15 <gmaxwell> mystery_substance_1
1185 2013-01-27 20:46:18 <sipa> but copying (or rather accepting) coins/ from someone isn't
1186 2013-01-27 20:46:32 <gmaxwell> chain_secrets
1187 2013-01-27 20:46:34 <sipa> you should only copy the coins/ dir from a location you trust
1188 2013-01-27 20:46:57 Cryo has joined
1189 2013-01-27 20:47:39 <andytoshi> i wonder if dropping a README into ./bitcoin would cover all this
1190 2013-01-27 20:47:45 <andytoshi> ~/.bitcoin i mean
1191 2013-01-27 20:48:21 <sipa> that's a good idea
1192 2013-01-27 20:51:20 <sipa> gmaxwell: you think it's worth it to change directory names, before rc's are released?
1193 2013-01-27 20:51:33 <Diapolo> sipa: Why are we using CImportingNow imp; when reindexing?
1194 2013-01-27 20:51:45 <sipa> Diapolo: because you're importing?
1195 2013-01-27 20:52:48 <sipa> Diapolo: reindexing is implemented as an import-from-existing files
1196 2013-01-27 20:53:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: Probably. I guess it would also go well removing the undo checksum backwards compatiblity.
1197 2013-01-27 20:53:06 <Diapolo> sipa: okay, but you distinguish for gui between reindex and import ... and it seems all cases use both flags with an OR
1198 2013-01-27 20:53:34 <Diapolo> Diapolo: that OR thing is wrong sorry ^^
1199 2013-01-27 20:53:34 <sipa> Diapolo: yeah, could be improved, but meh
1200 2013-01-27 20:53:51 <Diapolo> sipa: that's why I'm asking :-P
1201 2013-01-27 20:53:54 <Diapolo> meh meh
1202 2013-01-27 20:58:15 <andytoshi> baller, the addnoderpc stuff worked
1203 2013-01-27 20:58:21 <andytoshi> will post a test report on github..
1204 2013-01-27 21:02:42 <andytoshi> done, report at http://download.wpsoftware.net/code/bitcoin-1549/
1205 2013-01-27 21:05:58 <BlueMatt> andytoshi: awesome, thanks
1206 2013-01-27 21:06:40 <andytoshi> np, learned some good stuff about copying blockchains
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1225 2013-01-27 22:12:38 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm tempted to make a poll on the forums to vote for the directory names then :p
1226 2013-01-27 22:15:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: create N addresses, the one that recieves the most bitcoin wins. :P
1227 2013-01-27 22:15:43 <rdymac> ^ lol
1228 2013-01-27 22:16:19 <sipa> gmaxwell: i fear we'll end up with directories named after bitcoin companies or rich bitcoiners with a sense of vanity...
1229 2013-01-27 22:16:37 <gmaxwell> /HankTheAngryDrunkenDwarf/
1230 2013-01-27 22:16:54 <andytoshi> oops, there were 403 errors on the debug.log files i posted earlier
1231 2013-01-27 22:16:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: prefab options solves that. :P   but sure a forum poll.
1232 2013-01-27 22:16:58 <andytoshi> fixed permissions and gzipped them
1233 2013-01-27 22:17:01 <rdymac> Hank from Breaking Bad?
1234 2013-01-27 22:18:50 <gmaxwell> rdymac: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hank_the_Angry_Drunken_Dwarf#Most_Beautiful_Person_poll
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1237 2013-01-27 22:26:44 <sipa> gmaxwell: perhaps it even makes sense to make blktree a subdirectory of blocks, as they should be moved/copied/... together
1238 2013-01-27 22:29:07 <gmaxwell> well, I'd say  blockchain/blktree blockchain/coins but as you point out, coins has somewhat different copying semantics.. but I don't think we really want to support copying the blocktree in any case.
1239 2013-01-27 22:30:01 <sipa> i'm sure people will play with it, and putting the block index inside the blocks directory will certainly convey the idea that they're linked
1240 2013-01-27 22:30:17 <sipa> blocks/ and blocks/index/ perhaps
1241 2013-01-27 22:30:53 <sipa> how about chaindata/
1242 2013-01-27 22:30:56 <sipa> for coins
1243 2013-01-27 22:30:57 Hashdog has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1244 2013-01-27 22:32:16 <andytoshi> i like it
1245 2013-01-27 22:32:50 <sipa> it might even be chaincache/, as it can be rebuilt
1246 2013-01-27 22:33:08 <sipa> but that's sort of lying, it's not a cache for chain data
1247 2013-01-27 22:33:26 <andytoshi> yeah, i think that's misleading..if you delete it, it costs you a few hours
1248 2013-01-27 22:33:37 <andytoshi> most things called 'cache' you delete and don't even notice
1249 2013-01-27 22:33:51 <sipa> it takes me 6m53s here to get to block 210000 :)
1250 2013-01-27 22:34:10 <andytoshi> yeah, it was real fast up to there
1251 2013-01-27 22:34:17 <andytoshi> the last 3-5000 blocks were slow
1252 2013-01-27 22:34:24 <sipa> yes, signature checking
1253 2013-01-27 22:35:23 <Luke-Jr> /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/4.5.4/include/g++-v4/tuple:484:63: error: no match for ‘operator<’ in ‘std::get [with unsigned int __i = 2u, _Elements = {long int, void*, std::function<void()>}, typename std::__add_c_ref<typename std::tuple_element<__i, std::tuple<_Elements …> >::type>::type = const std::function<void()>&](((const std::tuple<long int, void*, std::function<void()> >&)((const std::tuple<long int, void*, std::
1254 2013-01-27 22:35:24 <Luke-Jr> function<void()> >*)__u))) < std::get [with unsigned int __i = 2u, _Elements = {long int, void*, std::function<void()>}, typename std::__add_c_ref<typename std::tuple_element<__i, std::tuple<_Elements …> >::type>::type = const std::function<void()>&](((const std::tuple<long int, void*, std::function<void()> >&)((const std::tuple<long int, void*, std::function<void()> >*)__t)))’
1255 2013-01-27 22:35:28 <Luke-Jr> ^ can anyone explain in English? :/
1256 2013-01-27 22:40:13 pooler has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1257 2013-01-27 22:41:12 <andytoshi> i would guess, somewhere you put a less-than operator, when you meant something different
1258 2013-01-27 22:41:14 <andytoshi> like <...>
1259 2013-01-27 22:47:25 <Luke-Jr> :/
1260 2013-01-27 22:47:33 <Luke-Jr> auto & k = std::get<1>(top);
1261 2013-01-27 22:47:39 <Luke-Jr> how else am I supposed to put it?
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1266 2013-01-27 22:52:32 <pjorrit> damn c++ is so lovely
1267 2013-01-27 22:52:34 <andytoshi> looks like a C++11 feature
1268 2013-01-27 22:52:42 <andytoshi> there is code at http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/tuple/get/ similar to yours
1269 2013-01-27 22:52:53 <andytoshi> when i compile it, gcc 4.7.2 gives...
1270 2013-01-27 22:53:00 <andytoshi> In file included from /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-redhat-linux/4.7.2/../../../../include/c++/4.7.2/tuple:35:0,
1271 2013-01-27 22:53:03 <andytoshi>                  from std-get.cpp:3:
1272 2013-01-27 22:53:05 <andytoshi> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-redhat-linux/4.7.2/../../../../include/c++/4.7.2/bits/c++0x_warning.h:32:2: error: #error This file requires compiler and library support for the ISO C++ 2011 standard. This support is currently experimental, and must be enabled with the -std=c++11 or -std=gnu++11 compiler options.
1273 2013-01-27 22:53:10 <Luke-Jr> so a G++ bug? :/
1274 2013-01-27 22:53:19 <andytoshi> adding -std=gnu++11 makes it work
1275 2013-01-27 22:53:25 <andytoshi> i would say so, yeah
1276 2013-01-27 22:53:47 RainbowDashh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1277 2013-01-27 22:53:53 <sipa> andytoshi: and -std=c++11 ?
1278 2013-01-27 22:54:02 <andytoshi> also works
1279 2013-01-27 22:54:07 <andytoshi> sorry, shoulda tried that one first
1280 2013-01-27 22:54:15 <sipa> Luke-Jr: do you specify any of those?
1281 2013-01-27 22:54:49 <Luke-Jr> sipa: gnu++0x
1282 2013-01-27 22:55:37 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it may be that your compiler is simply older than that part of the standard
1283 2013-01-27 22:55:44 <sipa> or was lagging behind at the time
1284 2013-01-27 22:55:48 <Luke-Jr> :/
1285 2013-01-27 22:56:12 <D34TH> needs more bleeding edge?
1286 2013-01-27 22:57:22 <Luke-Jr> hmm
1287 2013-01-27 22:57:28 <HM> std::tuple is a bit of a disappointment
1288 2013-01-27 22:57:31 <Luke-Jr> looks like 4.6 is considered stable now, I just need to switch to it
1289 2013-01-27 22:57:39 <HM> boosts fusion fuples are iterable for instance, and streamable
1290 2013-01-27 22:57:54 <HM> tuples even
1291 2013-01-27 22:58:45 <HM> Luke-Jr: you should compile with Clang, the errors are a lot more legible
1292 2013-01-27 22:58:49 <Luke-Jr> 4.6 has the same problem, sigh
1293 2013-01-27 22:59:00 <Luke-Jr> HM: I don't comprehend clang yet, and I like GNU extensions
1294 2013-01-27 22:59:12 <HM> Clang supports most gnu extensions, supposedly
1295 2013-01-27 22:59:23 <HM> it has to, it compiles GNU libstdc++
1296 2013-01-27 22:59:58 <HM> the command line is compatible as well
1297 2013-01-27 23:00:01 * Luke-Jr wonders what problems he'd get by using 4.7
1298 2013-01-27 23:00:09 <Luke-Jr> is it?
1299 2013-01-27 23:00:28 <HM> do you have a snippet i can test?
1300 2013-01-27 23:00:34 <HM> i have 4.7.2 and clang here
1301 2013-01-27 23:00:49 <HM> also codepad.org lets you compile C++ code online
1302 2013-01-27 23:00:52 <HM> no signup
1303 2013-01-27 23:02:35 <HM> ah no c++11 though :/
1304 2013-01-27 23:02:50 <Luke-Jr> not really… I'm porting from Python, and most of it doesn't work yet.
1305 2013-01-27 23:03:27 <sipa> CodeShark: did you manage to test whether posix_fallocate is available on OSX?
1306 2013-01-27 23:03:40 <sipa> or someone else?
1307 2013-01-27 23:05:55 <HM> sipa: https://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/file/3d846420a907/xpcom/glue/FileUtils.cpp#l61 mozilla don't seem to think so
1308 2013-01-27 23:07:02 <sipa> HM: that does show a nice workaround on OSX though!
1309 2013-01-27 23:07:49 <sipa> LGPL code, though
1310 2013-01-27 23:09:42 <HM> http://lists.apple.com/archives/darwin-dev/2007/Dec/msg00040.html
1311 2013-01-27 23:09:45 <HM> how about this
1312 2013-01-27 23:09:52 <HM> is that cleanroom enough
1313 2013-01-27 23:10:35 <sipa> i guess so
1314 2013-01-27 23:10:44 <HM> he does say it's to help some poor soul
1315 2013-01-27 23:10:56 <HM> on a public mailing list, sounds like public domain to me :P
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1319 2013-01-27 23:19:09 <sipa> HM: i doubt that - copyright tends to be quite automatic
1320 2013-01-27 23:19:33 <sipa> still, public enough i guess
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1323 2013-01-27 23:22:10 <andytoshi> HM: clang++ 3.2 won't compile this either
1324 2013-01-27 23:22:36 <andytoshi> wait, i'm lying
1325 2013-01-27 23:22:50 <sipa> liar!
1326 2013-01-27 23:22:52 <andytoshi> it needs -std=c++11 also
1327 2013-01-27 23:23:31 <andytoshi> haha
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1332 2013-01-27 23:26:00 <Luke-Jr> hmm
1333 2013-01-27 23:26:04 OneFixt has joined
1334 2013-01-27 23:26:17 <Luke-Jr> I get the error even if I take out everything but the initializer :|
1335 2013-01-27 23:28:19 Z0rZ0rZ0r has quit (Quit: Wheeeee)
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1337 2013-01-27 23:28:37 <Luke-Jr> http://codepad.org/LHcgs67N
1338 2013-01-27 23:29:03 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1339 2013-01-27 23:31:02 <Luke-Jr> hmm, std::function<void()> doesn't like being inside a tuple? :o
1340 2013-01-27 23:31:17 ForceMajeure has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1341 2013-01-27 23:31:30 <Luke-Jr> hmm, just not inside a tuple inside a priority_queue
1342 2013-01-27 23:31:31 <Luke-Jr> O.o
1343 2013-01-27 23:34:19 <D34TH> >.>
1344 2013-01-27 23:34:26 <Luke-Jr> aha, it's all because priority_queue's default comparison is trying to compare the std::function, which is impossible
1345 2013-01-27 23:35:52 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1346 2013-01-27 23:36:03 RainbowDashh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1347 2013-01-27 23:36:04 <HM> yeah a comparison on a tuple compares element by element
1348 2013-01-27 23:36:52 <HM> priority_queue is a bit of a bizarre STL template
1349 2013-01-27 23:37:06 <sipa> Luke-Jr: better use a good-old-C style function pointer, those are comparable :p
1350 2013-01-27 23:37:21 <Luke-Jr> sipa: but those can't be bound :P
1351 2013-01-27 23:37:43 <sipa> hmm?
1352 2013-01-27 23:38:06 b4epoche has joined
1353 2013-01-27 23:38:17 <HM> I'm guessing that void* parameter is being cast to an object type inside his function and then calls a member function somewhere
1354 2013-01-27 23:38:28 panzer has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1355 2013-01-27 23:38:36 <sipa> i suppose he menas std::bind
1356 2013-01-27 23:40:18 panzer has joined
1357 2013-01-27 23:40:43 <HM> Luke-Jr: codepad compiled that code without error
1358 2013-01-27 23:40:57 <HM> oh you used a typedef
1359 2013-01-27 23:41:52 <HM> weird
1360 2013-01-27 23:41:58 <HM> I guess codepad does do c++11
1361 2013-01-27 23:44:26 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1364 2013-01-27 23:49:20 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1365 2013-01-27 23:50:02 <Luke-Jr> sipa: right
1366 2013-01-27 23:50:08 <Luke-Jr> struct epoll_event ev = { .events = eventmask, }; <-- is this not valid C++ ? O.o
1367 2013-01-27 23:50:15 rdponticelli has joined
1368 2013-01-27 23:51:14 <HM> no
1369 2013-01-27 23:51:21 <HM> the dot syntax for members isn't part of C++
1370 2013-01-27 23:51:54 <HM> unless it was adopted for c++11
1371 2013-01-27 23:51:59 <sipa> not afaik
1372 2013-01-27 23:52:06 RainbowDashh has joined
1373 2013-01-27 23:52:18 <upb> its also some gnu gcc C extension
1374 2013-01-27 23:53:30 <HM> they are in C99 right
1375 2013-01-27 23:53:33 impulse- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1376 2013-01-27 23:53:37 <HM> they should have been adopted for C++11...
1377 2013-01-27 23:53:49 bitafterbit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1378 2013-01-27 23:54:06 <Luke-Jr> upb: pretty sure it's valid C99
1379 2013-01-27 23:54:06 impulse has joined
1380 2013-01-27 23:54:28 <HM> oh damn didn't make it in to C++11
1381 2013-01-27 23:54:48 <HM> https://www.informit.com/guides/content.aspx?g=cplusplus&seqNum=550
1382 2013-01-27 23:55:02 * Luke-Jr grumbles
1383 2013-01-27 23:57:12 <Luke-Jr> epoll_event ev{} ev.events = eventmask;
1384 2013-01-27 23:57:15 <Luke-Jr> almost as good, I guess
1385 2013-01-27 23:57:20 <Luke-Jr> plus a semicolon…
1386 2013-01-27 23:57:24 <upb> "In ISO C99 you can give the elements in any order, specifying the array indices or structure field names they apply to, and GNU C allows this as an extension in C90 mode as well. This extension is not implemented in GNU C++."
1387 2013-01-27 23:59:18 owowo has joined