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59 2013-02-05 01:51:46 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: re: mingw issues: sorry, Ive been pretty busy and havent had time to debug it a lot over the weekend, Im looking into it again though
60 2013-02-05 01:52:09 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: great-- if you're too busy, do a braindump in the issue and I'll try to tackle it
61 2013-02-05 01:52:50 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: sadly I still dont know much, just that that test fails on mingw-built bitcoinds (with the patch from http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/files/ , which is required for the tests)
62 2013-02-05 01:53:09 <BlueMatt> and that git bisect is pointing to something recent, though not a definitive commit
63 2013-02-05 01:53:14 <gavinandresen> mingw32 and mingw-w64 ?
64 2013-02-05 01:53:23 <BlueMatt> mingw32, still havent tested w64
65 2013-02-05 01:53:27 <gavinandresen> ok
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67 2013-02-05 01:55:15 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: if you don't figure it out tonight, I'll take a crack at it tomorrow when I'm fresh.
68 2013-02-05 01:55:22 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: alright, thanks
69 2013-02-05 01:55:33 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: is pulltester working now?
70 2013-02-05 01:55:51 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: if you sudo -u matt screen -r on jenkins, you can probably find what stuff I was running on there to test
71 2013-02-05 01:56:00 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: sorry, not till I can get reliable test results
72 2013-02-05 01:56:04 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: cool, thanks
73 2013-02-05 01:56:43 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: is it still just that one test failing? Might make sense just to disable that for normal pulls, pull-tester is extremely useful just to get a cross-compile sanity check
74 2013-02-05 01:57:26 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yea, I suppose I can dig into git history and grab the old tester to run later tonight
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94 2013-02-05 02:49:10 <muhoo> so does everyone working on this stuff have day jobs, or are the bitcoind devs communty-supported?
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96 2013-02-05 02:51:25 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: Gavin is salaries by the Bitcoin Foundation from donations and membership dues
97 2013-02-05 02:51:43 <Luke-Jr> (which in practice means he's paid by MtGox and BitInstant, for now)
98 2013-02-05 02:52:01 <gavinandresen> ⦠and bitcoinstore.com
99 2013-02-05 02:52:01 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: everyone else does various other stuff for a living
100 2013-02-05 02:52:48 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: is there a list of corp sponsors anywhere?
101 2013-02-05 02:53:18 <Luke-Jr> members*
102 2013-02-05 02:53:51 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: not yet, but members pages are next on the foundation webmaster's TODO list, I believe (conference registrations were highest priority)
103 2013-02-05 02:54:11 <gavinandresen> members pages == pages with lists of corporate & individual members
104 2013-02-05 02:54:20 <gavinandresen> (not pages that members can edit)
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106 2013-02-05 02:55:48 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: btw, any idea who I talk to for access to the Foundation's Avalon? I think I should have code ready for testing probably within the next week
107 2013-02-05 02:57:21 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: it is in the BitInstant offices in NYC. They tend to be busy, so I doubt they'll want to figure out how they can safely give you access, but you can ask Charlie
108 2013-02-05 02:58:22 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: I thought jgarzik said eligius worked great with his avalon, what needs testing?
109 2013-02-05 02:58:29 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: BFGMiner port
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111 2013-02-05 02:59:41 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: okey dokey. I thought Avalon was "visit web interface, point it at a pool or bitcoind, done"
112 2013-02-05 03:00:21 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: would BFGMiner run inside the Avalon box? Can you even replace the Avalon's software?
113 2013-02-05 03:00:25 <Luke-Jr> correct
114 2013-02-05 03:00:36 <Luke-Jr> it's an Openwrt system
115 2013-02-05 03:01:09 <gavinandresen> Ah. Seems like you should talk to the avalon folks about getting one, then, although I would understand why they wouldn't want to support Other People's Software on their box (annoying to support)
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117 2013-02-05 03:03:05 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I would think that was part of the intention of donating one to the Foundation (so they instead of providing one to each developer who wants to support it, they only provide one for sharing)
118 2013-02-05 03:04:04 <gavinandresen> okey dokey. I have no idea what their intention was, maybe you should ask them.
119 2013-02-05 03:04:11 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: fyi, gitian is also borked, and its sudo screen -r, not sudo -u matt screen -r
120 2013-02-05 03:04:35 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: frickin frackinâ¦. ok
121 2013-02-05 03:04:59 <v1rtex> I've done a search on google and can't seem to sift through the 3m+ results to find my answer... does anyone here have any suggestions on why my guiminer wouldn't accept any shares? aside from the mayan's and/or skynet.
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132 2013-02-05 03:23:44 <BlueMatt> oh, and, yes, the issue affects native windows, not just wine
133 2013-02-05 03:23:45 <BlueMatt> :)
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146 2013-02-05 03:51:42 <BlueMatt> anyone know if there was a specific commit (since ultraprune) that fixed gitian build (specifically undefined reference to `__imp__PathFileExistsW@4')
147 2013-02-05 03:51:46 <BlueMatt> ?
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149 2013-02-05 03:53:59 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: that sounds very familiarâ¦
150 2013-02-05 03:54:27 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I think that was fixed by compiling leveldb with WINVER=something
151 2013-02-05 03:54:44 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: thanks
152 2013-02-05 03:55:03 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: found it, thanks
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177 2013-02-05 05:11:38 <bdq3> can anyone give me some testnet BTC plz ? i dont want to wait for the 110 more block confirms
178 2013-02-05 05:11:58 <bdq3> n2FqPZDBv3JfdYg6juWnv7GvGGf577cBzh
179 2013-02-05 05:15:27 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: so, I did (finally) trace it down to (I think) one commit
180 2013-02-05 05:15:29 <BlueMatt> :)
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183 2013-02-05 05:18:20 <bdq3> nobody gots some spare testnet BTC? :(
184 2013-02-05 05:18:37 <bdq3> I have a few mined blocks I can pay u back tomorrow once the blocks confirm
185 2013-02-05 05:20:02 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yep, absolutely the bad commit is ef3988ca369900206b0cfc32cc1958aee0e43710 ("CValidationState framework")
186 2013-02-05 05:22:56 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: Ima go work on a few other things for the night, after a quick read-through of that commit I see nothing, but that causes it (and the bug appears to trigger pretty reliably ~50% of the time)...Ill look into it more tomorrow if you havent found anything by the time I get off
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196 2013-02-05 05:40:45 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: did the bugfix that was just merged fix it? :o
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202 2013-02-05 05:50:57 <MC1984> bdq3 you still want testcoins?
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207 2013-02-05 05:55:40 <bdq3> Yes plz
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209 2013-02-05 05:55:44 <bdq3> Was coding
210 2013-02-05 05:56:05 <bdq3> Please send to n2FqPZDBv3JfdYg6juWnv7GvGGf577cBzh let me know if u want me to pay u back tomorrow when my block matures
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213 2013-02-05 05:58:58 <MC1984> lemme sync this up
214 2013-02-05 06:02:15 <MC1984> ill send you a float to that i can make my wallet integer lol
215 2013-02-05 06:03:38 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin doesn't have floats.
216 2013-02-05 06:03:46 <Luke-Jr> except for target
217 2013-02-05 06:05:22 <MC1984> oh cool i dont have to sync fully before sending coins
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219 2013-02-05 06:07:46 <gjs278> if I have an xsvf for a xilinx pci-e device, is there a way I can flash it to the xilinx device
220 2013-02-05 06:09:13 <MC1984> whats the testnet port is it 9333
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222 2013-02-05 06:12:34 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: sending before syncing can cause weird things
223 2013-02-05 06:12:52 <Luke-Jr> especially if your wallet.dat is shared
224 2013-02-05 06:13:15 <MC1984> by sync i mean catch up
225 2013-02-05 06:13:23 <Luke-Jr> me too
226 2013-02-05 06:14:04 <MC1984> even if my chain is past the point where my wallet is consistent with it?
227 2013-02-05 06:15:20 <MC1984> also who the hell shares wallet.dat
228 2013-02-05 06:15:26 <SomeoneWeird> stupid people
229 2013-02-05 06:15:42 <SomeoneWeird> it might try to send an invalid tx if it doesn't know you don't control the coins anymore
230 2013-02-05 06:16:37 <MC1984> yes
231 2013-02-05 06:17:27 <MC1984> welp if i dont get any confirms on this then i know i dun goofed
232 2013-02-05 06:17:31 <MC1984> but i dont see why
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238 2013-02-05 06:29:47 <bdq3> MC1984: i pay u 25 testnet back tomorrow
239 2013-02-05 06:29:50 <bdq3> thx
240 2013-02-05 06:31:35 <MC1984> ok
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243 2013-02-05 06:33:13 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: if there's no changes in the sync that affect your wallet, I think you're fine
244 2013-02-05 06:33:55 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: but even if the wallet.dat isn't shared, sending puts a transaction in it, which means any new ones it finds in the sync need to have a time after that
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246 2013-02-05 06:35:23 <MC1984> its one wallet in one bitcoin thats been off for a few weeks
247 2013-02-05 06:35:27 <MC1984> should be fine afaik
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314 2013-02-05 08:57:50 <sipa> good morning!
315 2013-02-05 09:00:22 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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327 2013-02-05 09:41:11 <bdq3> Curse you qwebirc!
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344 2013-02-05 10:18:08 Joel12353463 has joined
345 2013-02-05 10:18:28 <Joel12353463> is it possible to embed the bitcoin channel in a mibbit.com widget?
346 2013-02-05 10:20:36 <sipa> just point it to irc.freenode.org
347 2013-02-05 10:22:16 freakazoid has joined
348 2013-02-05 10:22:21 B0g4r7 has joined
349 2013-02-05 10:23:33 <Joel12353463> @sipa, just says terminated
350 2013-02-05 10:23:51 <Joel12353463> can you test it?
351 2013-02-05 10:26:01 <sipa> i don't use mibbit
352 2013-02-05 10:26:17 <sipa> but the website says it supports arbitrary irc servers
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356 2013-02-05 10:33:46 <Joel12353463> @sipa, https://widgetmanager.mibbit.com/index.php?view=connection, please test if possible, maybe you can figure it out
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364 2013-02-05 10:55:26 <phantomcircuit> Joel12353463, please dont we dont need mibbit users...
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394 2013-02-05 12:39:55 <Luke-Jr> sipa: freenode blocks mibbit
395 2013-02-05 12:40:37 <pjorrit> not all irc servers welcome mibbit indeed
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416 2013-02-05 13:39:42 <occulta> Hi, how would i go about dumping all public addresses and converting them to sha256?
417 2013-02-05 13:40:01 <occulta> is it possible to dump addresses based on date creation?
418 2013-02-05 13:40:50 <HM2> you can't convert them to sha256 because addresses are a ripemd160 hash
419 2013-02-05 13:41:13 <occulta> i just mean like echo -n <address> | sha256sum
420 2013-02-05 13:41:20 <occulta> a sha256 hash of the public key
421 2013-02-05 13:41:42 <occulta> i can do this manually, if i can see at what date i created the pubic address, is that possible?
422 2013-02-05 13:42:31 <HM2> not really
423 2013-02-05 13:42:35 LargoG has joined
424 2013-02-05 13:42:50 <HM2> i don't think
425 2013-02-05 13:43:20 <HM2> you can extract the timestamp from the block an address was first seen in
426 2013-02-05 13:43:54 <HM2> do you mean for addresses you created on yoru machine?
427 2013-02-05 13:44:03 <HM2> or globally
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430 2013-02-05 13:47:12 <occulta> i created an address, but never used it
431 2013-02-05 13:47:19 Diablo-D3 has joined
432 2013-02-05 13:50:42 <HM2> i'm not sure if the wallet database records timestamps for generated wallets
433 2013-02-05 13:50:50 <HM2> in any case, it pregenerates a bunch of wallets in advance
434 2013-02-05 13:50:57 <HM2> so even if it did i'm not sure it'd help useful
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460 2013-02-05 14:45:02 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: no, the bug still exists after your pull got merged
461 2013-02-05 14:48:54 midnightmagic has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
462 2013-02-05 14:49:18 rdponticelli has joined
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464 2013-02-05 14:49:41 <BlueMatt> sipa: heh, I thought I had started pull-tester last night, but github's api appears to be broken...
465 2013-02-05 14:50:43 forrestv has quit (Excess Flood)
466 2013-02-05 14:51:13 <BlueMatt> or...well something isnt working
467 2013-02-05 14:51:24 <TD> hey BlueMatt
468 2013-02-05 14:51:29 <BlueMatt> hi TD
469 2013-02-05 14:51:39 crazy4btc has left ("Leaving")
470 2013-02-05 14:52:01 forrestv has joined
471 2013-02-05 14:52:10 <TD> hey forrestv
472 2013-02-05 14:53:28 <TD> gavinandresen: so when is 0.8 going to stop getting new features and ship? :)
473 2013-02-05 14:53:37 forrestv has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
474 2013-02-05 14:53:47 <BlueMatt> TD: my fault, I found a fun bug a few days ago and have been too busy to look deeper
475 2013-02-05 14:53:54 <TD> oh
476 2013-02-05 14:53:56 <TD> :(
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484 2013-02-05 15:03:39 <jgarzik> <MatthewLM, on CBitcoin>
485 2013-02-05 15:03:40 <jgarzik> I'm not going to use void * after-all as I just remembered the network code uses integers returned by socket(). Best keep it the way it was before. uint64_t can take any pointer or integer, so it's safest to just use that.
486 2013-02-05 15:03:47 <jgarzik> *facepalm*
487 2013-02-05 15:04:11 <BlueMatt> wat?
488 2013-02-05 15:05:16 <BlueMatt> how many alternate implementations have popped up between the time CBitcoin was announced and the future time when its reasonable?
489 2013-02-05 15:06:52 <gavinandresen> somebody should write a "Good, Bad, and Ugly" column for Bitcoin Magazine.
490 2013-02-05 15:07:19 <BlueMatt> heh
491 2013-02-05 15:11:31 LargoG has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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496 2013-02-05 15:21:23 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: there'd have to be something to go in the good categaory first
497 2013-02-05 15:21:26 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
498 2013-02-05 15:25:23 zooko```` has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
499 2013-02-05 15:30:05 moore_ has joined
500 2013-02-05 15:33:36 <TD> BlueMatt: the cbitcoin approach to compiler warnings is to disable them.
501 2013-02-05 15:34:08 <BlueMatt> TD: what, you dont do that?
502 2013-02-05 15:34:24 <TD> hah
503 2013-02-05 15:34:29 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
504 2013-02-05 15:34:31 <TD> you're gonna love the google codebase. it compiles with -Werror
505 2013-02-05 15:34:42 vampireb_ has joined
506 2013-02-05 15:34:43 <BlueMatt> actually, yes, I do love that
507 2013-02-05 15:34:59 <gavinandresen> Is Matt going to get assimilated by the borg, too?
508 2013-02-05 15:35:12 <BlueMatt> compiler warnings bug me more than they probably should....
509 2013-02-05 15:35:18 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yes, in zurich too...
510 2013-02-05 15:35:40 <gavinandresen> cool. Make sure they only install the easily-removable implants
511 2013-02-05 15:35:48 <BlueMatt> heh, ok
512 2013-02-05 15:36:10 <gavinandresen> ("Google Goggles 11.0: Ask Your Surgeon."
513 2013-02-05 15:36:20 <TD> for an internship anyway
514 2013-02-05 15:36:42 <BlueMatt> yea, I still have a few years before any permanent implants are an option...
515 2013-02-05 15:36:55 rdponticelli has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
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520 2013-02-05 15:52:37 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: gavinandresen: given the nature of the other bugs I found in the CValidationResult (they could have been abused to isolate nodes), I personally would be uncomfortable with releasing a final so long as pulltester sees a difference; but perhaps a RC will help turn up what the problem is
521 2013-02-05 15:53:21 <BlueMatt> sipa: did you see that CValidationState was what is causing the mingw bug?
522 2013-02-05 15:53:27 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: the one behaviour change I noticed in CVR that sipa decided was not a bug, was that valid blocks built on top of invalid parents could trigger anti-DoS rules affecting the parent; any chance that's related?
523 2013-02-05 15:53:57 JDuke128 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
524 2013-02-05 15:53:58 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: I'm definitely uncomfortable with a changes-behavior-based-on-compiler bug; I'm setting up a test environment now to try to figure out what is going on.
525 2013-02-05 15:54:09 <BlueMatt> no, the tester is localhost, and thus deliberately bypasses DoS rules
526 2013-02-05 15:54:48 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: I wonder if testing DoS rules might be a good idea for the future O.o
527 2013-02-05 15:54:54 <BlueMatt> yes, it would be
528 2013-02-05 15:56:26 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I *think* even with my fixes, the code is using the same variable name for two different variables within the same function (but different scopes) - I can imagine that *might* cause such a bug
529 2013-02-05 15:56:31 <TD> is it perhaps the case that CValidationState is a large change that should be put off until 0.8?
530 2013-02-05 15:58:41 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: I wouldnt feel comfortable with a build with CValidationState reverted, if its tickling a bug elsewhere, we should find that bug in case there are other ways to tickle it
531 2013-02-05 15:58:49 amiller_ is now known as amiller
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534 2013-02-05 16:00:42 <gavinandresen> I'm going to: compile with clang and run the test in valgrind. If they don't show the problem, then I think we should think about reverting and moving forward.
535 2013-02-05 16:00:42 dlb76 has joined
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538 2013-02-05 16:02:35 <helo> would probabilistic transactions have a chance to reduce SD's popularity?
539 2013-02-05 16:02:35 <BlueMatt> dont mind releasing an rc with it reverted, but a final release.....Id really like to dig deeper
540 2013-02-05 16:02:45 MobPhone is now known as MobEvo
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543 2013-02-05 16:03:27 <andytoshi> helo: what's a probablistic transaction?
544 2013-02-05 16:03:58 <helo> andytoshi: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Nanopayments
545 2013-02-05 16:04:14 eckey has joined
546 2013-02-05 16:04:36 <andytoshi> thx
547 2013-02-05 16:07:42 <andytoshi> cool, exactly what i expected for once
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549 2013-02-05 16:09:37 <andytoshi> it seems like it would be super straightforward to implement a lottery with this...i don't know the appeal of SD so i can't say if it would compete
550 2013-02-05 16:10:32 JDuke128 has joined
551 2013-02-05 16:11:07 <helo> it seems to be a good way to make the most of our limited blockspace
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553 2013-02-05 16:13:11 <helo> given that the 1MB limit may be reached this year
554 2013-02-05 16:13:42 <andytoshi> i concur
555 2013-02-05 16:13:53 <andytoshi> and given SD's hostility, it would be nice if we colud just undercut them
556 2013-02-05 16:15:14 muhoo has joined
557 2013-02-05 16:16:06 <TD> i'm not sure SD is hostile exactly
558 2013-02-05 16:16:09 <TD> maybe lazy? :)
559 2013-02-05 16:16:13 JDuke128 has joined
560 2013-02-05 16:16:20 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
561 2013-02-05 16:16:20 <HM2> hmm
562 2013-02-05 16:16:44 JDuke128 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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564 2013-02-05 16:17:37 <HM2> lol
565 2013-02-05 16:17:58 <HM2> it's like someone looked at SD and said "how can i destroy this in the most efficient way possible"
566 2013-02-05 16:20:11 <moore_> hmm I could really use thous nanopayments later this year ( for a content downloading service )
567 2013-02-05 16:21:08 <moore_> is their much interest in implementing them?
568 2013-02-05 16:21:13 <HM2> the more i sit in this channel the more i keep reading about new ideas. like hierarchical wallets, nanopayments, getwork... etc.
569 2013-02-05 16:21:34 <HM2> there needs to be a master list of "smart things people have come up with already"
570 2013-02-05 16:25:02 <andytoshi> moore_: you can implement them yourself with raw transactions
571 2013-02-05 16:25:22 <andytoshi> not super hard, just make a normal transaction and publish a range of hash values
572 2013-02-05 16:25:26 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: valgrind is a happy camper⦠I'll try to do a native mingw32 build
573 2013-02-05 16:25:32 <andytoshi> ..oh, i see, the payer would also need to support
574 2013-02-05 16:26:03 <moore_> andytoshi, I don't fallow
575 2013-02-05 16:26:27 <moore_> I could have one data server do it and users would have to trust them
576 2013-02-05 16:26:51 <moore_> but that requires trust and it might not work well for small servers
577 2013-02-05 16:26:56 <andytoshi> moore_: you send some token amount, but don't publish the transaction, just publish a range of txouts it might be
578 2013-02-05 16:27:13 <andytoshi> then as payment, people send you transactions with a txin in that range
579 2013-02-05 16:27:30 <andytoshi> if they guess right, they pay, if not, the whole transaction is invalid and they don't
580 2013-02-05 16:28:25 <moore_> but how dose the receiver of payments know they are not being cheated?
581 2013-02-05 16:29:03 <andytoshi> moore_: if they get a txin in the specified range, of the required amount (range * payment), then no cheating was possible
582 2013-02-05 16:30:18 <denisx> gavinandresen: is there a osx build of 0.8 anywhere to test?
583 2013-02-05 16:30:30 <gavinandresen> denisx: no
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585 2013-02-05 16:31:06 <denisx> gavinandresen: or a osxbuild with ultraprune?
586 2013-02-05 16:31:13 <moore_> andytoshi, I still don't fallow... I guess I don't understand what this range thing is
587 2013-02-05 16:32:07 <moore_> I guess it dose not matter if I understand now
588 2013-02-05 16:32:25 <gavinandresen> denisx: no
589 2013-02-05 16:32:27 <moore_> I am months away from needing to implment it
590 2013-02-05 16:32:49 <moore_> but good to know there are ideas out there for this stuff
591 2013-02-05 16:32:53 <andytoshi> moore_: i need to think about it before i can give specific answer
592 2013-02-05 16:32:59 <moore_> ok
593 2013-02-05 16:33:16 <moore_> I could also implment a less abusive version of what SD dose
594 2013-02-05 16:33:20 ThomasV has joined
595 2013-02-05 16:33:47 <moore_> where on only relay TX in a randome but audtable way
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597 2013-02-05 16:35:21 <moore_> basically people send TX and they get realyed to the network with a 1 out of n probility, for some large n
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599 2013-02-05 16:35:59 <moore_> but where after the fact it can be audited if there was cheeting by the host providing the servouse
600 2013-02-05 16:36:53 <moore_> andytoshi, if you work out yours better I would like to hear about it thou
601 2013-02-05 16:37:40 <andytoshi> moore_: if you /msg me an email (or send one to the address on my site wpsoftware.net/andrew ), i'll get back to you
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615 2013-02-05 16:54:09 <sipa> gavinandresen: if cvr causes a compiler-depending error, i'm fine with reverting it for now, but in that case we do need another solution to distinguish between different causes of validation failures
616 2013-02-05 16:55:20 <sipa> ^ BlueMatt
617 2013-02-05 16:55:37 <gavinandresen> sipa: agreed. I don't think we definitely know whether it is a compiler issue yet, I want to reproduce it independently
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631 2013-02-05 17:25:38 <epscy> sipa: i was thinking about something you were talking about the other day
632 2013-02-05 17:25:48 <epscy> about how the implementation is the spec
633 2013-02-05 17:26:51 <epscy> would it be a good idea to have some kind of black box test framework that checks whether the client conforms to all the network rules
634 2013-02-05 17:27:20 <epscy> something which could be used against different bitcoin client implementations
635 2013-02-05 17:27:25 <darkskiez> sounds like a good idea to me
636 2013-02-05 17:27:26 <epscy> is that even feasible?
637 2013-02-05 17:27:49 <darkskiez> no reason why not, could run a thing on the test net
638 2013-02-05 17:28:06 <darkskiez> send the client various bogus things and see if it accepts them
639 2013-02-05 17:28:33 <darkskiez> maybe would want an audit-net that was even faster than the test net
640 2013-02-05 17:28:48 <epscy> yeah, the obvious problem is, it's a lot of work and would need to be kept up to date with new tests added to be useful
641 2013-02-05 17:29:19 <epscy> ahh, an audit-net, that's an interesting idea
642 2013-02-05 17:32:10 <epscy> i guess it also kind of overlaps with the CI testing that you guys do
643 2013-02-05 17:36:38 <gavinandresen> a testnet node that does nothing but send almost-but-not-quite-valid transactions/blocks is something I really want somebody to implement.
644 2013-02-05 17:37:09 <gavinandresen> You could then disable DoS protections, connect to it, and make sure you don't get forked onto a bogus chain.
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654 2013-02-05 17:47:11 <TD> epscy: there is matts testing tool. it feeds blocks with various edge cases in them to two different nodes and compares the responses. if one of them is satoshis code, you have your tool
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668 2013-02-05 18:02:55 <helo> gavinandresen: are you in favor of unlimited block size?
669 2013-02-05 18:03:08 <gavinandresen> helo: yes
670 2013-02-05 18:03:35 <gavinandresen> well, really, limited-only-by-consensus-of-the-network block size
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675 2013-02-05 18:09:22 <helo> would the network have enough concern for the time necessary for new nodes to catch up?
676 2013-02-05 18:09:40 da2ce7 has joined
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679 2013-02-05 18:11:02 <helo> it's easy enough to process a 10MB block every 10 minutes. but validating hundreds of thousands of 10MB blocks would be pretty daunting.
680 2013-02-05 18:12:06 <gmaxwell> helo: (an aside) you must process it much faster than 10 minutes or the networks starts failing to converge after 1/2 blocks.
681 2013-02-05 18:12:18 <gavinandresen> helo: I don't want to think about that right now, but I believe a default rule of "don't relay blocks that take too long to process" should work
682 2013-02-05 18:13:01 <helo> gmaxwell: hah, good point
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684 2013-02-05 18:14:05 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt sipa: gitian-built HEAD with the blocktester patch applied seems to work just fine. Maybe it is a WINE issue? Jenkins build environment is wonky issue?
685 2013-02-05 18:14:30 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ⦠by work fine I mean it passes the blocktester test
686 2013-02-05 18:14:57 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I was building gitian last night and wine still failed, I also tested a gitian copy on native windows and got the error
687 2013-02-05 18:15:03 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: but its never 100% of the time
688 2013-02-05 18:15:05 <BlueMatt> its closer to 50%
689 2013-02-05 18:15:16 <gavinandresen> Ah. So I should re-run the test a few times?
690 2013-02-05 18:15:34 <BlueMatt> yes
691 2013-02-05 18:15:41 CodeInChaos has joined
692 2013-02-05 18:15:53 <gavinandresen> ok, will doâ¦.
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694 2013-02-05 18:18:29 <BlueMatt> not sure if you are setup to build bitcoinj, but if you are, setting the call to getTests or whatever its called to (false) instead of (true) will speed up the tests a lot
695 2013-02-05 18:18:53 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
696 2013-02-05 18:19:06 * muhoo notes that
697 2013-02-05 18:19:53 <BlueMatt> it just skips 1 very expensive block (the one that does exactly MAX_SIG_OPS)
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704 2013-02-05 18:28:39 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: 4 runs, no problems. Does it work for you? Binary is: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/38065353/bitcoind.exe
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710 2013-02-05 18:30:59 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: no, I got a fail
711 2013-02-05 18:31:36 <Luke-Jr> :o
712 2013-02-05 18:31:57 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: which jar are you using?
713 2013-02-05 18:32:11 <BlueMatt> (the one currently at http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/files/ is the old one which will not give you errors)
714 2013-02-05 18:32:20 <BlueMatt> (it was reset to let pull-tester run again)
715 2013-02-05 18:32:33 <gavinandresen> BAH!
716 2013-02-05 18:32:42 <gavinandresen> ok, where do I get the jar that will fail?
717 2013-02-05 18:33:31 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ok, download the jar from there now
718 2013-02-05 18:33:41 <BlueMatt> (make sure you are getting >= 70 blocks)
719 2013-02-05 18:34:16 <gavinandresen> downloading....
720 2013-02-05 18:34:54 <gavinandresen> ok, I'll re-run through my tests after lunch
721 2013-02-05 18:34:57 <BlueMatt> thanks
722 2013-02-05 18:35:02 <BlueMatt> sorry for the confusion
723 2013-02-05 18:35:50 <gavinandresen> s'all right⦠I'm now more prepared to gitian-build the 0.8 release, which is good
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740 2013-02-05 19:00:25 <gavinandresen> How do I tell java to run with more heap? I'm getting java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
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747 2013-02-05 19:02:43 <_W_> gavinandresen: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/tools/solaris/java.html -Xmxn Specify the maximum size, in bytes, of the memory allocation pool. This value must a multiple of 1024 greater than 2MB. Append the letter k or K to indicate kilobytes, or m or M to indicate megabytes.
748 2013-02-05 19:02:51 <t7> search minecarft forums :) they know this
749 2013-02-05 19:03:52 <gavinandresen> _W_ : thanks
750 2013-02-05 19:04:21 <_W_> of course, if you're getting OOME because your program is allocating memory in an infinite loop, or similar, raising that will do little :)
751 2013-02-05 19:04:54 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: if you didnt have more pressing things to do, Id ask you to get a heap dump and see where its eating memory....
752 2013-02-05 19:06:08 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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757 2013-02-05 19:13:46 <t7> gavinandresen: what are you using java for?
758 2013-02-05 19:15:08 <gavinandresen> t7: running BlueMatt's block-tester
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762 2013-02-05 19:20:34 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: now my WinXP bitcoind appears to get stuck processing after Block "b40" completed
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764 2013-02-05 19:21:34 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: wait, no,maybe it is java being slow (using 100% CPU time...)
765 2013-02-05 19:22:39 zooko```` has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
766 2013-02-05 19:23:42 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: progress! I got a mismatch on my mac-compiled bitcoind
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770 2013-02-05 19:26:38 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: can you try something? Run the test with -upnp=0 ; valgrind is complaining about uninitialized stuff when I run -upnp=1
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774 2013-02-05 19:37:03 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yea, b40 is the big, MAX_SIGOPS one
775 2013-02-05 19:37:58 <gavinandresen> ok, good news is I'm getting reproducible failures on my mac, so I should be able to step through in the debugger and see what is going on
776 2013-02-05 19:38:12 <BlueMatt> well, thats good
777 2013-02-05 19:38:22 <BlueMatt> yea, I dont think its a compiler bug...but its a weird bug in any case
778 2013-02-05 19:38:24 <gavinandresen> ⦠just need to figure out where to put the breakpointâ¦.
779 2013-02-05 19:38:40 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
780 2013-02-05 19:39:24 <BlueMatt> be warned, it may just be a bug in the test tool (though I suppose that would indicate a bug on the linux side of bitcoind too?)
781 2013-02-05 19:39:32 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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783 2013-02-05 19:45:16 <BlueMatt> lol, it does happen on linux too, ok its probably a test script bug
784 2013-02-05 19:45:20 <BlueMatt> sorry for all the confusion
785 2013-02-05 19:45:47 <Luke-Jr> I wouldn't bet on that <.<
786 2013-02-05 19:46:28 <Luke-Jr> I found auditing CVR to be more difficult than expected; wouldn't surprise me if something slipped past both sipa and I
787 2013-02-05 19:46:56 <BlueMatt> oh, wait, no it happened with CVR, for some reason I was going back to test 0.7.2
788 2013-02-05 19:47:03 <BlueMatt> no, it has to be some rule change
789 2013-02-05 19:47:07 <BlueMatt> even if its a bugfix
790 2013-02-05 19:47:25 <BlueMatt> ^ why I need to stop posting stream-of-consciousness about bugs on irc
791 2013-02-05 19:51:54 <BlueMatt> in any case, its not a compiler bug, if we cant track down an issue, Id feel comfortable reverting CVR for 0.8
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796 2013-02-05 19:55:25 <muhoo> chasing weird bugs is a real through-the-rabbit-hole experience. it's so easy to see ghosts everywhere.
797 2013-02-05 19:59:36 <TD> reminds of when i worked on wine
798 2013-02-05 20:00:53 agricocb has joined
799 2013-02-05 20:01:00 <BlueMatt> muhoo: yes
800 2013-02-05 20:03:23 <MC1984> http://bbs.btcman.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1304 everyone seen this?
801 2013-02-05 20:03:34 <MC1984> looks like 80 asics per module
802 2013-02-05 20:04:34 Diapolo has joined
803 2013-02-05 20:08:55 <HM2> what
804 2013-02-05 20:10:09 <HM2> that says 66 GH/s?
805 2013-02-05 20:10:55 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
806 2013-02-05 20:11:58 <HM2> the same as Jeffs
807 2013-02-05 20:12:54 <HM2> oh i see you mean the adorable little chips
808 2013-02-05 20:13:50 Jamesonwa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
809 2013-02-05 20:13:53 <MC1984> yeah
810 2013-02-05 20:14:14 <MC1984> it looks like they are heatsunk from the back through the PCB too, interesting
811 2013-02-05 20:14:34 <MC1984> a godly chunk of aluminium
812 2013-02-05 20:15:01 <MC1984> i wonder what the stats of an individual ship is
813 2013-02-05 20:16:03 <HM2> well ~22 GH/s over 80 chips is ~275 MH/s/chip
814 2013-02-05 20:16:58 <MC1984> the power and heat
815 2013-02-05 20:17:44 <MC1984> 600w/80 is 7.5 watts
816 2013-02-05 20:18:11 <MC1984> minus say 15% for power supply losses and the controller board
817 2013-02-05 20:18:28 <MC1984> 6 watts per chip for 275mhash?
818 2013-02-05 20:18:33 <HM2> well 10 chips each seem to have their own block at the end
819 2013-02-05 20:18:52 CodesInChaos has joined
820 2013-02-05 20:18:57 <HM2> interface / controller of some kind
821 2013-02-05 20:19:05 <HM2> caps suggest power though, surely
822 2013-02-05 20:19:39 <MC1984> looks like caps and an inductor
823 2013-02-05 20:19:53 <MC1984> power conditioning
824 2013-02-05 20:20:11 <HM2> maybe
825 2013-02-05 20:20:48 <HM2> presumably the PSU is 12v
826 2013-02-05 20:20:56 <HM2> these chips probably run on much much lower than that
827 2013-02-05 20:21:55 <MC1984> logic usually runs on 3.3
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830 2013-02-05 20:22:16 <HM2> it says on it
831 2013-02-05 20:22:18 <HM2> 1.2 volts
832 2013-02-05 20:22:20 <gmaxwell> MC1984 thats how you need to heatsink chips in that kind of package.. the die is bonded to the bottom, if you put the heatsink on the top there is a big layer of plastic in the way.
833 2013-02-05 20:22:24 <HM2> oops, no lol
834 2013-02-05 20:22:26 <HM2> v1.2
835 2013-02-05 20:23:10 <MC1984> gmaxwell that makes sense, its still got a whole PCB to go through though
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838 2013-02-05 20:23:18 <MC1984> unless there is a shunt all the way through it
839 2013-02-05 20:24:10 <HM2> pfft
840 2013-02-05 20:24:21 <HM2> who will be first to offer a liquid cooled ASIC? :P
841 2013-02-05 20:24:28 <MC1984> so each of those power conditioners is handling maybe 60w?
842 2013-02-05 20:24:55 <HM2> more like 25W
843 2013-02-05 20:25:03 <MC1984> it looks like each bank of 10 chips is controllable too judging from the connectors
844 2013-02-05 20:25:33 <MC1984> pretty highly modular design
845 2013-02-05 20:26:01 <HM2> what interface are they using?
846 2013-02-05 20:26:47 <MC1984> some sort of cheap pin header thing
847 2013-02-05 20:26:58 <gmaxwell> HM2: there is a small computer in the box ... with ethernet and wifi. Dunno what the board<->computer interface is.
848 2013-02-05 20:27:08 <MC1984> 20 pins maybe?
849 2013-02-05 20:27:10 <HM2> i looked it uo
850 2013-02-05 20:27:24 <HM2> it's the same board used in a TP-Link travel router
851 2013-02-05 20:27:28 <HM2> hence why it's running OpenWRT
852 2013-02-05 20:27:42 <gmaxwell> Though it sounds like whatever they're doing now is really slow to update the asics as jeff has a p2pool DOA rate of about 20%.
853 2013-02-05 20:28:08 <HM2> DOA rate?
854 2013-02-05 20:28:14 <MC1984> oh dear, is that fixable with software
855 2013-02-05 20:28:29 <helo> surely
856 2013-02-05 20:28:54 <gmaxwell> HM2: shares returned after the p2pool sharechain has advanced. (p2pool sharechain gets a share per 10 seconds on average)
857 2013-02-05 20:29:24 <HM2> i'm not familiar with shares on pools
858 2013-02-05 20:29:26 <gmaxwell> helo: maybe, maybe not. I'd sayâ probably.
859 2013-02-05 20:29:28 <HM2> https://lh3.ggpht.com/-fUETjIkBIyM/UQmZPGBy6gI/AAAAAAAABSk/hmz2sZBFtvM/s1600/IMG_4269.JPG
860 2013-02-05 20:29:37 <HM2> looks like a USB interface to a custom control box
861 2013-02-05 20:29:39 <gmaxwell> HM2: it's analogous to blocks.
862 2013-02-05 20:29:50 <HM2> see the little silver cig sized box next to the PSU
863 2013-02-05 20:30:03 <gmaxwell> basically it's taking a long time (e.g. on the timescale of a second or multiple) to respond to longpolls.
864 2013-02-05 20:30:12 <MC1984> it will suck BALLS if these things are bad for p2pool due to a hardware oversight
865 2013-02-05 20:30:17 <MC1984> like, it would be tragic
866 2013-02-05 20:30:28 <kjj> you talking about Avalon? That is a 40 pin IDC cable, basically an old IDE cable
867 2013-02-05 20:31:19 <MC1984> yeah but whats the protocol
868 2013-02-05 20:31:32 <gmaxwell> MC1984: well it's not really that huge of an issue: if most of the p2pool hashrate is like this then your compeition has the same disadvantage and its all fair.
869 2013-02-05 20:31:38 <kjj> no one knows yet, or at least they haven't made it public
870 2013-02-05 20:31:47 <HM2> kjj: right, but the primary interface seems to be USB
871 2013-02-05 20:31:50 <HM2> to the host
872 2013-02-05 20:31:54 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
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874 2013-02-05 20:32:06 <MC1984> gmaxwell no i mean p2pool vs legacy pools
875 2013-02-05 20:32:14 <gmaxwell> MC1984: ... So did I.
876 2013-02-05 20:32:17 <kjj> so far, no one has posted pictures of what is under the jumble of PSU cables
877 2013-02-05 20:32:27 <gmaxwell> God. This is what will kill our freedom. Technology is too complicated for people.
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879 2013-02-05 20:33:15 <MC1984> the stale issue affecting p2pool would affect other pools too?
880 2013-02-05 20:33:31 <TD> no
881 2013-02-05 20:33:32 <gmaxwell> die.
882 2013-02-05 20:33:33 <gmaxwell> :P
883 2013-02-05 20:33:38 <gmaxwell> MC1984: having your p2pool shares late just means that you will be credited by p2pool for a lesser amount of your work relative to other p2pool miners who are not late.
884 2013-02-05 20:34:00 <HM2> wait so there are deadlines on share allotment?
885 2013-02-05 20:34:05 <HM2> and if you're late their issued to someone else/
886 2013-02-05 20:34:06 <HM2> ?
887 2013-02-05 20:34:17 <gmaxwell> If all/most of the p2pool hashrate is equally inflicted then it's all fair and makes no difference.
888 2013-02-05 20:34:25 <kjj> think of p2pool as a bitcoin chain with a 10 second target instead of 10 minutes
889 2013-02-05 20:34:38 benkay_ has joined
890 2013-02-05 20:34:58 <gmaxwell> HM2: p2pool uses a sharechain to reach consensus on who gets paid what. A linear chain of shares like a linear chain of blocks in bitcoin.
891 2013-02-05 20:35:13 tehace has joined
892 2013-02-05 20:35:27 <HM2> eesh sounds complex. i thought they just split up the nonce space for hashing blocks
893 2013-02-05 20:35:33 Mad7Scientist has joined
894 2013-02-05 20:35:34 <MC1984> lol look at the usb cable hot glued inside
895 2013-02-05 20:35:58 <kjj> man, that thing by the PSU looks like a hub.
896 2013-02-05 20:36:08 <gmaxwell> So your shares can be orphaned if someone ~concurrently finds the next share. If all miners are equal in latency, then it's completely fair. If some are slower it biases the rewards a bit towards the faster ones: this is a good thing, since it incentivizes faster nodes which tend to be less likely to be stale for bitcoin.
897 2013-02-05 20:36:50 <gmaxwell> HM2: nothing splits up the nonce space. That would be dumb considering that you can go through a nonce range in like 30 seconds on a faster miner.
898 2013-02-05 20:36:50 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: sipa wants us to use the word "stale" instead of "orphan" here - but I'm not sure how it applies to the verb :/
899 2013-02-05 20:36:53 <MC1984> is that the host board?
900 2013-02-05 20:37:15 owowo has joined
901 2013-02-05 20:37:16 <HM2> what? the little cutey at the bottom is
902 2013-02-05 20:37:27 <MC1984> the silver box
903 2013-02-05 20:37:43 <MC1984> anyone know what that is? ARM?
904 2013-02-05 20:37:52 <Luke-Jr> MIPS
905 2013-02-05 20:37:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, orphan is the wrong word indeedâ but its the word that everyone uses. ::shrugs::
906 2013-02-05 20:38:10 <MC1984> oh
907 2013-02-05 20:38:27 <MC1984> does it have access to change the OS without a jtag or something
908 2013-02-05 20:38:35 <Luke-Jr> yes
909 2013-02-05 20:38:39 <Luke-Jr> it's just a router
910 2013-02-05 20:38:49 <kjj> I think I have a hub that looks exactly like that in my laptop bag
911 2013-02-05 20:38:52 <HM2> Jeff did post dmesg output that gave the model
912 2013-02-05 20:38:54 <Luke-Jr> the hard part is the ASIC controller
913 2013-02-05 20:38:59 gjs278 has joined
914 2013-02-05 20:39:00 <HM2> it's a TP-Link board, about $20
915 2013-02-05 20:39:02 maaku has joined
916 2013-02-05 20:39:07 <Luke-Jr> the ASIC controller is a FPGA
917 2013-02-05 20:39:10 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: NZ said it was a fpga.
918 2013-02-05 20:39:11 <gmaxwell> Yea.
919 2013-02-05 20:39:16 <HM2> ah cool
920 2013-02-05 20:39:26 <HM2> so the FPGA lives in the silver box, i guess?
921 2013-02-05 20:39:29 <Luke-Jr> which means at least I am useless to improve it, even if they open the cod
922 2013-02-05 20:39:31 <Luke-Jr> code*
923 2013-02-05 20:39:37 <gmaxwell> And he sounded like it was saying the whole controller got rebooted for every longpoll. (0_o)
924 2013-02-05 20:39:40 <Luke-Jr> and Avalon has no obligation to open the FPGA code AFAIK
925 2013-02-05 20:39:50 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: FPGAs reboot? :o
926 2013-02-05 20:40:03 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: also very little to not release it, at least eventually.
927 2013-02-05 20:40:22 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no reason for them to hide the Openwrt/cgminer code either
928 2013-02-05 20:40:38 <Luke-Jr> yet they're even going so far as to infringe on the copyright there
929 2013-02-05 20:41:00 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
930 2013-02-05 20:41:08 dbe has joined
931 2013-02-05 20:41:45 <HM2> I'd like to know whether they optimised for and pipelined double SHA-256 or whether it cycles
932 2013-02-05 20:42:05 <HM2> it's going to become useless as a profitable bitcoin box at some point, it'd be nice to be able to put it to another use
933 2013-02-05 20:42:27 <kjj> no one knows
934 2013-02-05 20:42:53 <kjj> really though, it won't be long before someone taps that 40 pin ribbon with a logic analyzer and spills the details
935 2013-02-05 20:43:22 <HM2> there we go, the host is a TP-LINK TL-WR703N
936 2013-02-05 20:44:37 <HM2> i love openwrt, those guys are reverse engineering shitloads of boards
937 2013-02-05 20:46:59 <jgarzik> <ngzhang> Avalon chip is NOT a hardcopy or something similar.
938 2013-02-05 20:46:59 <jgarzik> meanwhile, it is NOT a full custom ASIC too.
939 2013-02-05 20:46:59 <jgarzik> Avalon ASIC is designed with standard cell.
940 2013-02-05 20:47:04 <jgarzik> "
941 2013-02-05 20:47:35 <MC1984> the hells does that mean
942 2013-02-05 20:47:45 <kjj> I wasn't sure how to interpret that post.
943 2013-02-05 20:48:49 dbe is now known as Guest83353
944 2013-02-05 20:49:02 <HM2> i guess he means the ASICs weren't designed from scratch
945 2013-02-05 20:49:08 <HM2> but were just adapted
946 2013-02-05 20:49:29 <kjj> possible, but the notion of "designed from scratch" is kinda murky here
947 2013-02-05 20:49:34 gjs278 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
948 2013-02-05 20:49:45 gjs278 has joined
949 2013-02-05 20:49:56 <sturles> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_cell
950 2013-02-05 20:50:22 mappum has joined
951 2013-02-05 20:50:57 <kjj> and that is why it gets murky
952 2013-02-05 20:51:32 <HM2> It's frankly amazing 2 guys can pull together the resources to create an ASIC product
953 2013-02-05 20:51:32 <gmaxwell> HM2: no, that isn't what that means.
954 2013-02-05 20:51:45 <kjj> is it only "full custom" when you design transistor by transistor, rather than gate by gate?
955 2013-02-05 20:51:49 <gmaxwell> Basically it means that they didn't design their own transistors.
956 2013-02-05 20:52:14 <MC1984> lol
957 2013-02-05 20:52:14 <HM2> fair enough
958 2013-02-05 20:52:16 <gmaxwell> kjj: full custom is where you're fully responsible for drawing all the mask layers in complete detail.
959 2013-02-05 20:52:19 zooko has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
960 2013-02-05 20:52:23 <MC1984> how far down this rabbit hooe do you want to go
961 2013-02-05 20:52:37 <kjj> I don't believe that anyone really does that any more
962 2013-02-05 20:52:41 <HM2> turtles
963 2013-02-05 20:52:48 zooko has joined
964 2013-02-05 20:53:01 <kjj> we have programs that turn programs into masks, and then other programs to tweak the masks, and then other programs to...
965 2013-02-05 20:53:04 <gmaxwell> Standard cell is where the fab gives you a library of logical legoblocks (they're often more complex than single transistor) which you build your circuit out of.
966 2013-02-05 20:53:16 <HM2> well presumably there is software that can map transisters better than humans can when it comes to billions of logic op
967 2013-02-05 20:53:43 <MC1984> gmaxwell seems like this is really quite inefficient for an ASIC then
968 2013-02-05 20:53:56 <gmaxwell> MC1984: virtually all digital logic is standard cell.
969 2013-02-05 20:54:02 <coingenuity> MC1984: actually, inversely so
970 2013-02-05 20:54:06 <MC1984> + its on 110nm lithography rght
971 2013-02-05 20:54:08 <coingenuity> standard cell is highly appropriate for bitcoin
972 2013-02-05 20:54:15 <HM2> why would a pre-made pre-optimised module be less efficient? :P
973 2013-02-05 20:54:15 <kjj> I get it that the industry might call it "full custom" if the customer provides the masks, rather than the blueprints for the masks, but that doesn't seem to be much more custom (in the normal use of the word) to me
974 2013-02-05 20:54:31 <coingenuity> all you need to do is sha2 operations- that's a rote kind of programmatic logic that works well in a sha2-oriented standard cell, i would imagine
975 2013-02-05 20:54:47 <gmaxwell> Usually there isn't any great efficiency to be gained by full custom for digital logic, and there is a lot more risk because your theorized gate has uncertian performance characteristics.
976 2013-02-05 20:55:00 <gmaxwell> kjj: customer provides the mask images in all cases.
977 2013-02-05 20:55:13 <gmaxwell> kjj: it's just a question of if the customer used the fab's cell library or not.
978 2013-02-05 20:55:38 <MC1984> cool this is silicon foundry 101
979 2013-02-05 20:55:41 <coingenuity> gmaxwell: sha2 is such a simple and popular ASIC subject, i dont see why not
980 2013-02-05 20:55:53 <gmaxwell> coingenuity: I could see some advantages from having a few custom blocks which have improved geometry for better routingâ for example.
981 2013-02-05 20:56:14 <coingenuity> as could i, but i think this just creates issues with scaling implementation
982 2013-02-05 20:56:31 <gmaxwell> But most of what sha256 does is pretty boring... it's not like it's the first circuit to need a 32 bit adder. :P
983 2013-02-05 20:56:44 <coingenuity> my understanding is once the cell becomes too heavily custom, moving from hundreds of thousands of gates into millions is more difficult... and sha2 is so damn rote
984 2013-02-05 20:56:56 <coingenuity> standard cell is the "smart move"
985 2013-02-05 20:56:58 <gmaxwell> so the standard cell library should be pretty reasonable for wiring up 32 bit adders already. :P
986 2013-02-05 20:57:25 <coingenuity> absolutely, especially in scale
987 2013-02-05 20:57:48 <coingenuity> when i first started looking at asic mining some-odd 2 years ago or whatever, the abundance of commercial sha2 asic hashing astounded me
988 2013-02-05 20:58:04 <coingenuity> but it's the industry standard crypto module for all sorts of crap
989 2013-02-05 20:58:54 <coingenuity> also, of course, a lot of the government actually runs based on sha2 asic modules >.>
990 2013-02-05 20:59:03 <coingenuity> crypto-login and all that
991 2013-02-05 20:59:17 <coingenuity> it's nice to have caught up to everyone else now as a bitcoiner :P
992 2013-02-05 20:59:27 <HM2> lol hardly
993 2013-02-05 20:59:47 <kjj> sadly, commercial SHA products aren't too useful, because they are all optimized for streaming, not resetting
994 2013-02-05 21:00:07 <Scrat> pretty sure all those SSL accelerators are FPGA
995 2013-02-05 21:00:39 <coingenuity> kjj: oh, not commenting on their use for mining, just the prevalence of sha2 asic technology
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1000 2013-02-05 21:00:49 <HM2> Scrat: SSL accelerators only deal with CBC-AES and RC4 and such don't they though? you wouldn't offload the RSA stuff to hardware because it only happens once over a connection?
1001 2013-02-05 21:00:55 <coingenuity> Scrat: depends which, low end accellerators are
1002 2013-02-05 21:01:08 <coingenuity> however there's very high end ssl accellerators using asics
1003 2013-02-05 21:01:17 <gmaxwell> HM2: there is hardware that offloads RSA ... though if your host has a modern CPU this seems foolish.
1004 2013-02-05 21:01:39 <coingenuity> gmaxwell: its for ssl negotiation on millions of conns per second
1005 2013-02-05 21:01:47 <coingenuity> so you can ssl negotiate then send traffic off to the lb
1006 2013-02-05 21:01:48 <HM2> Wikipedia apparently terminate all their SSL at the edge of their web cluster
1007 2013-02-05 21:01:49 <coingenuity> or whatever
1008 2013-02-05 21:01:52 <gmaxwell> (as on a modern HT'd CPU asymmetric crypto is basically free for most applications, as it can run while another thread is waiting on memory)
1009 2013-02-05 21:01:55 <jgarzik> That is the story of accelerator hardware. It gets produced, and then 1-2 years later (if that), modern CPUs wind up being a faster solution for the accelerated task.
1010 2013-02-05 21:02:06 <Scrat> HM2: it's once per connection but it's very costly
1011 2013-02-05 21:02:33 <HM2> Scrat: so is a 3 way TCP handshake...and the TLS/SSL negotiation...all network round trips
1012 2013-02-05 21:02:57 <coingenuity> HM2: in the end its less overhead than the cpu cost
1013 2013-02-05 21:03:15 <gmaxwell> yea, the modern cpu at 22nmâ which spends 20% of its time idle in any case waiting on ramâ doesn't have to work too hard to smoke some RSA dohicky on 130nm attached across a moderately slow bus.
1014 2013-02-05 21:03:19 <MC1984> so can these avalon units be used for "normal" sha2 hashing if bitcoin dies
1015 2013-02-05 21:03:28 <MC1984> i thought it was a given they could not
1016 2013-02-05 21:03:30 <jgarzik> good question
1017 2013-02-05 21:03:34 <gmaxwell> Scrat: it's not once per connection SSL sessions are cached.
1018 2013-02-05 21:03:35 <jgarzik> it seems doubtful
1019 2013-02-05 21:03:39 <kjj> I'd call 20% a low estimate
1020 2013-02-05 21:03:43 <HM2> if they're hardwired for double-SHA they'll be useless
1021 2013-02-05 21:03:54 <gmaxwell> kjj: yea, I picked a low number because I didn't want to debate it! :P
1022 2013-02-05 21:03:57 <jgarzik> presumably they are unrolled double-SHA
1023 2013-02-05 21:04:01 vampireb has joined
1024 2013-02-05 21:04:01 <MC1984> could a bitcoin ASIC be desined to altleast retain some sort of value without bitcoin
1025 2013-02-05 21:04:10 <coingenuity> MC1984: not really
1026 2013-02-05 21:04:16 <gmaxwell> MC1984: sha2 hashing is not an application.
1027 2013-02-05 21:04:33 <HM2> MC1984: why would Avalon sell a product that had a resaleable value? :P
1028 2013-02-05 21:04:38 <gmaxwell> MC1984: and no, they couldn't be used for any application that I'm currently aware ofâ even if they aren't married to bitcoin completely.
1029 2013-02-05 21:05:00 <MC1984> welp double or nothing
1030 2013-02-05 21:05:13 <kjj> gmaxwell: kinda sad that most of the gains that Moore has bought us over the last 10 years have been in greater capacity of the CPUs to play what-if? while waiting for memory to respond with the information it needs to commit to one of the two path simulations it has been running
1031 2013-02-05 21:05:24 <coingenuity> think about it this way: you can't really use a car as anything else
1032 2013-02-05 21:06:00 <coingenuity> or more like, you can't turn your car into a boat once it gets a flat tire
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1034 2013-02-05 21:06:09 <MC1984> this is why im suprised it only took thing long to go from FPGA to asic
1035 2013-02-05 21:06:13 <gmaxwell> there is basically no application for sha256 with the kind of throughput bitcoin needs... 1MH/s ~= 1gbit of SHA256 authentication basically.
1036 2013-02-05 21:06:14 <MC1984> the risk jump is massive
1037 2013-02-05 21:06:31 <muhoo> coingenuity: well, actually.... http://www.floatingcubans.com/
1038 2013-02-05 21:06:41 <coingenuity> MC1984: thats mining, though..... perpetual arms race
1039 2013-02-05 21:06:58 <coingenuity> muhoo: my point is, though, it won't ever do as good as a normal boat- funny though :)
1040 2013-02-05 21:07:10 <gmaxwell> nothing needs 66 tbit/sec of sha256 authentication (and of course you can't get 66tbit/sec in and out of those chips)
1041 2013-02-05 21:07:14 <kjj> gmaxwell: there are plenty of applications for SHA256 at that rate, but they are all streaming applications, which our miners don't do
1042 2013-02-05 21:07:34 <coingenuity> ^
1043 2013-02-05 21:07:36 <HM2> Wouldn't it be ironic if the digital arms race for mining cypto currency brought about the economic motivation to finally accomplish practical quantum computing? :P
1044 2013-02-05 21:07:45 <gmaxwell> kjj: no there aren'tâ for 66 TBit/sec. nonsense. :P
1045 2013-02-05 21:07:56 <kjj> and yeah, we have no IO needs, so we couldn't do streaming even if we could reconfigure our chips for it
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1047 2013-02-05 21:08:09 <MC1984> well as i understand it ASICs are the endgame for the foreseeable future, apart from litho shrinks and other small improvements
1048 2013-02-05 21:08:17 <coingenuity> there's applications for high-throughput hashing, but bitcoin is WAY too high for anything useful except encrypting hdds or something
1049 2013-02-05 21:08:25 MobPhone has joined
1050 2013-02-05 21:08:26 <coingenuity> and can't do streaming
1051 2013-02-05 21:08:33 <gmaxwell> MC1984: well they're not just 'small' improvements. But yes, smaller than this step.
1052 2013-02-05 21:08:39 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1053 2013-02-05 21:08:47 <HM2> i suppose you could use them as an adhoc KDF
1054 2013-02-05 21:09:06 <coingenuity> HM2: kind of like killing a squirrel with a mortar i suppose
1055 2013-02-05 21:09:07 <coingenuity> heh
1056 2013-02-05 21:09:08 <HM2> instead of PBKDF2 for a 1 million rounds you could do plain SHA-2....2 billion rounds :P
1057 2013-02-05 21:09:13 <gmaxwell> You could juse them for hashcash.
1058 2013-02-05 21:09:14 Guest83353 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1059 2013-02-05 21:09:23 <kjj> gmaxwell: yeah, 66 TBit/sec is a bit much. but one chip would be useful in lots of places (security cameras?). except that it doesn't have IO, and it doesn't have streaming capability.
1060 2013-02-05 21:09:30 <gmaxwell> E.g. there could be a nice secondary antispam market for bitcoin asics if bitcoin dies. :P
1061 2013-02-05 21:09:41 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1062 2013-02-05 21:09:43 <MC1984> yes well im glad its happened sooner rather than later
1063 2013-02-05 21:10:00 <gmaxwell> kjj: sure. That I grantâ and there are lots of commercial devices for low rate sha256 (e.g. 1gbit/sec - 10gbit/sec) already.
1064 2013-02-05 21:10:01 <MC1984> in the arms race analogy im think you could say ASICS are the nuclear deterrent
1065 2013-02-05 21:10:27 <HM2> seriously though, if this thing is doing 66 GH/s that means algorithms like PBKDF2 are pretty pointless
1066 2013-02-05 21:10:36 <coingenuity> in the end, sha2 is only as useful as the io- bitcoin uses no input
1067 2013-02-05 21:10:45 <coingenuity> (almost none)
1068 2013-02-05 21:10:53 <gmaxwell> HM2: not soâ it's still a linear slowdown.
1069 2013-02-05 21:10:54 <MC1984> the only thing left is that just like US and RU with thier >10,000 warheads each, we unfortunately need lots nd lots of the chips :P
1070 2013-02-05 21:11:10 <HM2> gmaxwell: yeah but password derivation has to be practical for *legitimate* uses as well
1071 2013-02-05 21:11:20 <muhoo> what are we deterring against, actually?
1072 2013-02-05 21:11:20 <gmaxwell> HM2: the strenghtening we use for bitcoin password encryption typically uses 100k rounds of sha512.. it's still a factor of 100k slower than without.
1073 2013-02-05 21:11:20 <coingenuity> MC1984: yup, this is why i facepalm when people ask me "so why didnt avalon just make the asic and not sell it?"
1074 2013-02-05 21:11:49 sacredchao has joined
1075 2013-02-05 21:12:01 <gmaxwell> muhoo: jerks reorginizing the chain using big gpu botnets for fun and profit, of course.
1076 2013-02-05 21:12:09 <kjj> I gather from the forums, and from real life, that most people don't have a real good grasp on what an ASIC is
1077 2013-02-05 21:12:14 <HM2> gmaxwell: my point is if the ASIC is 100x faster you're going to have to start crippling to user experience by making unlocks take 30 seconds or something crazy
1078 2013-02-05 21:12:16 <muhoo> ah.
1079 2013-02-05 21:13:09 <coingenuity> actually, now that im thinking about it
1080 2013-02-05 21:13:19 <coingenuity> a bitcoin asic could be used for NAS crypto
1081 2013-02-05 21:13:19 <gmaxwell> HM2: yea, but that doesn't make the KDF pointless. A factor of 100k (or whatever) slowdown is an improvement even if its still far too fast for comfort.
1082 2013-02-05 21:13:33 <kjj> I remember sitting through a firewall sales pitch one time, and the drone was droning on about how his company's product has an ASIC. the guy next to me was nodding along, so I leaned over and said "The furby had an ASIC too". The rest of the day, I kept hearing him talking smugly about how that firewall had a furby CPU
1083 2013-02-05 21:13:34 <gmaxwell> coingenuity: ...
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1090 2013-02-05 21:14:02 <coingenuity> say you have 100k users in an org, they need to provide a sha2 hash of their password to readwrite to the network storage or something like that
1091 2013-02-05 21:14:20 <coingenuity> you can offload processing to a bitcoin asic... but yeah... few and far between as far as non-bitcoin uses, i think
1092 2013-02-05 21:14:34 <HM2> gmaxwell: it's not pointless, but eventually your users are waiting as long as they will tolerate for keyderiv and the crackers are unphased, so it's time for plan B.
1093 2013-02-05 21:14:46 <HM2> scrypt looks awesome
1094 2013-02-05 21:15:26 <Scrat> http://www.f5.com/pdf/products/big-ip-platforms-datasheet.pdf
1095 2013-02-05 21:15:32 <Scrat> this is the stuff you'd use
1096 2013-02-05 21:15:32 <gmaxwell> HM2: It's still the same _basic_ arms race in that case.. though perhaps with a reasonable constant factor improvement.
1097 2013-02-05 21:15:35 <Scrat> not a card
1098 2013-02-05 21:16:19 <Scrat> you put 2 of these in your DC and none of your servers will have to handle SSL or a potential ddos that targets it
1099 2013-02-05 21:16:28 <Scrat> this is for google scale obviously
1100 2013-02-05 21:16:39 <coingenuity> SSL accellerators are by far one of the nerdiest things you can have in your cage
1101 2013-02-05 21:16:41 <coingenuity> i love them
1102 2013-02-05 21:17:06 <gmaxwell> too bad their performance is generally unimpressive relative to their cost.
1103 2013-02-05 21:17:17 <coingenuity> gmaxwell: absolutely
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1105 2013-02-05 21:17:44 <Scrat> hardware load balancing is still alive and well in the enterprise, overpriced or not
1106 2013-02-05 21:17:44 <coingenuity> at the end of the day, its just easier to let the user wait an extra 200ms on ssl handshaking
1107 2013-02-05 21:18:03 <MC1984> whats with all the hardwre cceleration in the age of 4 or more cores sitting around doing fuck all a lot of the time
1108 2013-02-05 21:18:13 <HM2> well google use RC4 exclusively now
1109 2013-02-05 21:18:16 <HM2> since BEAST
1110 2013-02-05 21:18:18 <coingenuity> Scrat: the point at which you need to start using ssl accelleration is really, really huge though
1111 2013-02-05 21:18:19 <gmaxwell> "so ... amazing ... your box is as fast as three dual-quad-core i7 servers! .... and it only costs $80,000 after disconunt? I'll take 40!"
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1113 2013-02-05 21:18:45 <coingenuity> gmaxwell: yeah, corporate-scale hardware is silly
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1115 2013-02-05 21:19:09 <HM2> don't forget the support contract
1116 2013-02-05 21:19:16 <coingenuity> the more i have to buy it, the more i just end up building my own stuff... $20k 1u's and stuff gets a little insane
1117 2013-02-05 21:19:24 <coingenuity> just easier to do it myself
1118 2013-02-05 21:19:27 <MC1984> doesnt google still run thier stuff on mostlyoff the shelf equipment
1119 2013-02-05 21:19:36 <MC1984> they dont even cool it properly i heard
1120 2013-02-05 21:19:39 <coingenuity> MC1984: sort of, they use a micronode methodology
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1122 2013-02-05 21:19:40 <Scrat> coingenuity: yeah google, amazon that kind of stuff
1123 2013-02-05 21:19:42 <HM2> it's all made out of lego :P
1124 2013-02-05 21:19:44 <kjj> the new IBM boxes are really friggin nice though. particularly if you spring for the IMM upgrade
1125 2013-02-05 21:19:55 <gmaxwell> MC1984: intel has a nice whitepaper that shows that RSA is basically free on most webservers even if the cores are all busy... because even a busy core is spending a lot of time waiting on ram.
1126 2013-02-05 21:20:23 <coingenuity> MC1984: in essence, google is using specialized parts that they buy in huge runs, but they're basically slightly modified OEM boards and processor combos, with a redundant UPS built onto the back of the mobo assembly
1127 2013-02-05 21:20:37 <coingenuity> MC1984: it sits in a little tray with the battery poking out the ass of the rack in case it explodes
1128 2013-02-05 21:20:46 <HM2> and Google use awesome colour schemes in their data centers
1129 2013-02-05 21:20:50 <gmaxwell> there are now videos of that stuff.
1130 2013-02-05 21:20:50 <MC1984> cool
1131 2013-02-05 21:21:06 <gmaxwell> Search youtue for google datacenter tour or something like that.
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1134 2013-02-05 21:21:26 <MC1984> i find huge, important global services running on utter bog standsard commodity hardware to be far more geeky though
1135 2013-02-05 21:21:28 <HM2> the primary colours make it more eco-friendly :P
1136 2013-02-05 21:21:32 <coingenuity> yeah, google/amazon style is pretty solid
1137 2013-02-05 21:22:02 <coingenuity> they're both a little extreme with the "fill a shipping container and wait for it to hit 40% failure rate, then trash it" mentality
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1141 2013-02-05 21:24:33 <Scrat> their servers might be mostly commodity hardware thanks to a very fault tolerant software stack but the central routing/load balancing is handled by _very_ expensive hardware
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1144 2013-02-05 21:26:37 <HM2> well aren't cloud services fun
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1149 2013-02-05 21:32:54 <Scrat> fad still hasn't died though. everyone and their mother with an ec2 instance calling their service "cloud"
1150 2013-02-05 21:33:14 <Scrat> cloudthis, cloudthat
1151 2013-02-05 21:33:21 davout has quit (Quit: blurg)
1152 2013-02-05 21:35:23 zooko has joined
1153 2013-02-05 21:35:32 <HM2> hey ec2 is pretty awesome
1154 2013-02-05 21:35:53 <HM2> and some of the stuff joyent have done on the OS side of things is pretty slick
1155 2013-02-05 21:36:02 <Scrat> yeah I like smartOS
1156 2013-02-05 21:37:07 <HM2> but yeah, we don't have web 2.0 anymore. we have "the cloud"
1157 2013-02-05 21:38:17 <HM2> and RoR is old hat, now you have to run NodeJS and some NoSQL lovin' and be too cool for w3school
1158 2013-02-05 21:38:32 <Scrat> I dont know whats the state of dtrace on linux
1159 2013-02-05 21:38:33 <HM2> and unless your new language is named after a bean derived beverage you can go to the scrap heap
1160 2013-02-05 21:38:42 <Scrat> HM2: word
1161 2013-02-05 21:39:35 <Scrat> beverage related languages have crossed over from the hipster world :p
1162 2013-02-05 21:39:49 <Scrat> I'm excluding java here
1163 2013-02-05 21:41:09 <Scrat> node/mongo is so nice to work with
1164 2013-02-05 21:41:13 <Scrat> incoming hate from purists
1165 2013-02-05 21:41:25 <HM2> BAH
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1168 2013-02-05 21:51:35 <Scrat> HM2: you sound like a python guy
1169 2013-02-05 21:55:07 <HM2> Not particularly
1170 2013-02-05 21:56:50 <HM2> I prefer statically typed languages to dynamic. I'll tolerate Python, Javascript, Perl and Lua though
1171 2013-02-05 21:57:31 <HM2> Python is something of a meh language for me. I'll use it because there are good tools and frameworks for it, but i don't really like it
1172 2013-02-05 21:58:22 <HM2> I've been poking at Clojure lately, did ...well one, of the Facebook Hacker Cup competition problems in it
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1182 2013-02-05 22:17:15 <gavinandresen> sipa BlueMatt: this commit fixes the block-tester discrepancy for me: https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/commit/50bb929ad55ed066858aeebc38fd632756f6c2c6
1183 2013-02-05 22:17:33 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
1184 2013-02-05 22:17:45 <gavinandresen> ⦠and I'm going to do a much more careful code review of the CValidationState changes...
1185 2013-02-05 22:18:26 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: nice!, Ill reset pull-tester to the latest stuff and get that one tested asap
1186 2013-02-05 22:18:55 <BlueMatt> anyway...yay for testing!
1187 2013-02-05 22:19:04 <gavinandresen> yes, yay for testing!
1188 2013-02-05 22:20:13 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: can you pull-request that?
1189 2013-02-05 22:20:49 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: done
1190 2013-02-05 22:21:02 <BlueMatt> thanks
1191 2013-02-05 22:21:27 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: thanks
1192 2013-02-05 22:21:46 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: thanks for spending the time on this one, sorry Ive been busy
1193 2013-02-05 22:22:14 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: no problem
1194 2013-02-05 22:22:27 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: in theory, does that mean the test is triggering a CValidationState.Error, when maybe it shouldn't be?
1195 2013-02-05 22:22:54 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I think with that change it'll be back to corrupting the blockchain and leaving the node stuck when it momentarily runs out of disk during connection.
1196 2013-02-05 22:23:02 <Luke-Jr> (maybe the conditional there is correct, but the condition leading to it isn't..)
1197 2013-02-05 22:23:37 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: that's certainly possible. Can we create a test case to mimic that?
1198 2013-02-05 22:23:42 <gmaxwell> (what happens is that it marks the block invalid when the connection fails due to being out of spaceâ and so it never reevaluates the block)
1199 2013-02-05 22:24:01 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I have a test setup for that caseâ it's in a moving van someplace in texas right now. :P
1200 2013-02-05 22:24:07 <gavinandresen> d'oh!
1201 2013-02-05 22:24:24 <gmaxwell> (at least the case I was testing triggered a failure someplace inside leveldb)
1202 2013-02-05 22:24:39 <gavinandresen> The alternative fix is to have ConnectBlock always return an invalid CValidationState for every error condition
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1204 2013-02-05 22:25:21 <gmaxwell> Well the question is which actually invalid state is failing to set IsInvalid, no?
1205 2013-02-05 22:25:23 dbe is now known as Guest14313
1206 2013-02-05 22:25:31 <gmaxwell> Sorry I've been remiss lately in following changes.
1207 2013-02-05 22:25:34 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: the BIP30 check
1208 2013-02-05 22:26:29 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: line 1608 of main.cpp, return error("ConnectBlock() : tried to overwrite transaction");
1209 2013-02-05 22:27:07 <gavinandresen> I think that should be state.Abort or state.DoS ...
1210 2013-02-05 22:28:26 <gavinandresen> ⦠or Error...
1211 2013-02-05 22:29:25 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1212 2013-02-05 22:30:47 <gavinandresen> sipa: for all the routines that take a CValidationState&, I'm thinking they should be changed to return a CValidationState. And we should define CValidationState::operator(bool)() { return IsValid;}
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1217 2013-02-05 22:37:26 <HM2> gavin, use Boosts bool_testable
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1219 2013-02-05 22:37:48 <HM2> or a safe bool
1220 2013-02-05 22:37:52 <HM2> i forget what they call it now
1221 2013-02-05 22:38:32 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: tried to overwrite transaction IMO would be a DoS
1222 2013-02-05 22:39:03 <gavinandresen> HM2: can you look? I couldn't find it a couple of days ago when I looked...
1223 2013-02-05 22:39:15 <HM2> i just looked apparently it's been removed
1224 2013-02-05 22:39:33 <HM2> C++11 has 'explicit' for conversion operators though
1225 2013-02-05 22:39:40 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: FWIW, my BIP 23 Proposals branch had a return-style CValidationResult, but sipa thought passing the state object was better for reasons currently slipping my mind
1226 2013-02-05 22:40:13 Sebulbasaur has joined
1227 2013-02-05 22:40:16 <Luke-Jr> (we briefly discussed it)
1228 2013-02-05 22:40:46 <HM2> hey bitcoin isn't a library, you can change APIs whenever you like, right?
1229 2013-02-05 22:40:49 mologie has joined
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1233 2013-02-05 22:42:29 <Luke-Jr> HM2: bitcoind is a RPC library, so unfortunately we have some degree of legacy compt to keep :/
1234 2013-02-05 22:42:59 <Luke-Jr> HM2: and note the CValidationResult that's causing problems, was itself meant to be merely an internal API change ;)
1235 2013-02-05 22:43:01 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: Im gonna run pull-tester on that pull like 5 times, so...sorry for the comments
1236 2013-02-05 22:43:13 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: can't you delete comments? O.o
1237 2013-02-05 22:43:24 <BlueMatt> gavin can, I think
1238 2013-02-05 22:43:58 <Luke-Jr> I mean with the BitcoinPullTester acct
1239 2013-02-05 22:45:26 darksk1ez has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1240 2013-02-05 22:45:56 <BlueMatt> yes, I can login and delete comments manually
1241 2013-02-05 22:46:54 <BlueMatt> we've got a hackaton sponsored by github in a month or two, since Im in no rush, Im gonna bitch at them to get the pull status api modified so I can use it properly...maybe do it myself
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1254 2013-02-05 23:30:24 <benkay> today's noob developer lesson: don't resize partitions at a coffee shop.
1255 2013-02-05 23:30:35 <benkay> EVEN IF YOU DESPERATELY WANT THE WHOLE BLOCKCHAIN
1256 2013-02-05 23:32:05 <kjj> heh. don't resize partitions. period.
1257 2013-02-05 23:33:13 <benkay> why not? prefer re-partitioning?
1258 2013-02-05 23:33:31 <benkay> question asked out of ignorance, not arrogance.
1259 2013-02-05 23:33:44 <kjj> for every "I resized my partitions and it worked great" story, I've heard a hundred that end with "and I lost all of my data"
1260 2013-02-05 23:34:57 <pjorrit> 1 partition per disk
1261 2013-02-05 23:35:03 <pjorrit> need a new partition? get a new disk
1262 2013-02-05 23:35:11 <pjorrit> it's always been the cheapest option for me :p
1263 2013-02-05 23:35:30 <kjj> that is a very safe and effective way to be, yes. slightly more complicated now in UEFI-world, but still a good approximation
1264 2013-02-05 23:36:15 <benkay> hm.
1265 2013-02-05 23:36:19 <benkay> i've been dual-booting.
1266 2013-02-05 23:36:30 <benkay> but i have spare laptop drives kicking around
1267 2013-02-05 23:36:38 <benkay> but daaad i don't want to dev ops this month
1268 2013-02-05 23:37:09 <pjorrit> with laptop's you may want to have some partitions for that :)
1269 2013-02-05 23:37:39 yin has joined
1270 2013-02-05 23:37:40 <pjorrit> i usually fix that be running windows in linux or the other way around
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1272 2013-02-05 23:39:56 <kjj> I don't use X, so my laptop is just XP. if I need linux, I can SSH to it easily enough
1273 2013-02-05 23:40:37 <pjorrit> i either start cygwin or start up virtual box
1274 2013-02-05 23:40:39 <kjj> technically, it is a work laptop. the last few personal laptops I owned were slackware, no X. freaked people out to see them boot up in text console mode
1275 2013-02-05 23:41:26 <pjorrit> i don't think i'd even \have a non gui laptop
1276 2013-02-05 23:41:31 <pjorrit> why'd you do that?
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1279 2013-02-05 23:42:48 <benkay> oh man and after all the time (3 days) i spent getting ubuntu on this mac box
1280 2013-02-05 23:42:58 <benkay> i really want this resize to work
1281 2013-02-05 23:43:27 <pjorrit> it'll probably work :)
1282 2013-02-05 23:44:57 <ne0futur> I resized partitions hundreds of times before installing linux
1283 2013-02-05 23:45:03 <ne0futur> and never had any problem
1284 2013-02-05 23:45:10 <ne0futur> you are probably not using the right tools to do it
1285 2013-02-05 23:45:33 <ne0futur> the mageia install cd is great to do that, you can resize and not install
1286 2013-02-05 23:45:46 <ne0futur> with a good graphical partitioning tool
1287 2013-02-05 23:46:03 <benkay> homie you're dripping assumptions all over the floor
1288 2013-02-05 23:46:08 <ne0futur> but if you want to resize a windows partition, first defrag and checkdisk 2 times
1289 2013-02-05 23:46:40 <benkay> i'm resizing my HFS partition in osx
1290 2013-02-05 23:47:04 <benkay> so, fine "wrong tools" = osx, i get that
1291 2013-02-05 23:47:06 veralibertas has joined
1292 2013-02-05 23:47:08 <benkay> which is why i dual boot
1293 2013-02-05 23:47:33 <benkay> however there is data on this partition i'm emotionally attached to (hs writing exercises, naked photos of exes, etc)
1294 2013-02-05 23:47:53 <benkay> i'm quite capable of resizing my linux partition
1295 2013-02-05 23:48:04 <benkay> it's this bullshit proprietary mac partition
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1300 2013-02-05 23:52:49 <HM2> partitions are so old school
1301 2013-02-05 23:53:26 <benkay> learn me oh whise one
1302 2013-02-05 23:53:36 <HM2> if you're on linux you should use the LVM
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1304 2013-02-05 23:53:44 <muhoo> wow this seems pretty OT
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1306 2013-02-05 23:53:53 <HM2> it's the best compromise between flexibility and modernity
1307 2013-02-05 23:54:02 <HM2> and stability
1308 2013-02-05 23:54:28 <denisx> HM2: you should try zfs, then you see the light
1309 2013-02-05 23:54:38 random_cat has joined
1310 2013-02-05 23:54:42 <HM2> Unfortunately zfs isn't available on Linux right now
1311 2013-02-05 23:54:46 <HM2> except maybe via FUSE
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1313 2013-02-05 23:55:10 <HM2> I'll wait for Btrfs to catch up :/
1314 2013-02-05 23:55:16 <ne0futur> zfs isn't available on Linux ???
1315 2013-02-05 23:55:39 <muhoo> um, have backups?
1316 2013-02-05 23:56:09 <HM2> ne0futur: not trivially
1317 2013-02-05 23:56:15 <HM2> i'm not aware of any distros that ship it
1318 2013-02-05 23:56:57 <muhoo> KVM FTW
1319 2013-02-05 23:57:19 <benkay> i will use lvm on my next virgin machine
1320 2013-02-05 23:57:36 <benkay> but this os x box has...legacy constraings.
1321 2013-02-05 23:57:43 <benkay> constraints*
1322 2013-02-05 23:58:07 <Scrat> zfs-on-fuse isnt production quality
1323 2013-02-05 23:58:12 <ne0futur> http://zfsonlinux.org/faq.html
1324 2013-02-05 23:58:26 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1325 2013-02-05 23:58:34 <HM2> it kinda sucks right now on Linux for filesystems. raid, disk encryption and volume management are all separate layers so nothing is elegantly managed
1326 2013-02-05 23:59:24 <benkay> yeah
1327 2013-02-05 23:59:38 <benkay> i was just musing to myself how if i want a robust solution i'll have to hire someone to wire it up for me
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