1 2013-02-12 00:12:56 MrTiggr has joined
2 2013-02-12 00:14:25 D34TH has joined
3 2013-02-12 00:16:55 Goonie has joined
4 2013-02-12 00:24:51 <Scrat> bleh, wanted to do a fast sync on a 2 x octacore xeon and it just stood there with 8 connections using <1% cpu
5 2013-02-12 00:24:58 <Scrat> addnode doesn't do anything
6 2013-02-12 00:25:42 <sipa> if you want a fast sync, use -connect
7 2013-02-12 00:25:54 <sipa> (i.e., a single fast peer)
8 2013-02-12 00:26:23 <sipa> and addnode won't help you get more than 8 outgoing connections
9 2013-02-12 00:27:42 <Scrat> must've got 8 dialups
10 2013-02-12 00:27:46 <gmaxwell> Scrat: connections has ~nothing to do with sync speed. You can -connect a known fast node to pull fast, or loadblock the data from a blockchain file.
11 2013-02-12 00:28:05 <gmaxwell> s/8/1/
12 2013-02-12 00:29:27 <midnightmagic> there is a bootstrap thing jgarzik is seeding. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117982.0
13 2013-02-12 00:29:37 <midnightmagic> so you could bootstrap it with a torrent download.
14 2013-02-12 00:29:41 <midnightmagic> :-D
15 2013-02-12 00:29:56 <Scrat> I know, was just testing unaided sync
16 2013-02-12 00:29:59 <gmaxwell> though good luck with the torrent, people frequently complain that it takes forever to download.
17 2013-02-12 00:30:06 <Scrat> jgarzik needs to upload latest one
18 2013-02-12 00:31:04 one_zero has joined
19 2013-02-12 00:31:28 <midnightmagic> 0.8.x is fast enough that an eeepc with 2GB ram (701 model no less) can still be a full node. :)
20 2013-02-12 00:32:17 <Scrat> well average tps is <1
21 2013-02-12 00:32:21 <lianj> midnightmagic: that model has only 4gigs or diskspace :P but yea
22 2013-02-12 00:34:46 <midnightmagic> lianj: Mine has 2G ram, and I was using an external drive.
23 2013-02-12 00:36:12 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the problem is the default is dht only
24 2013-02-12 00:36:23 <phantomcircuit> which is basically useless when there's only 8 peers
25 2013-02-12 00:36:51 <MC1984> you know you can pass trackers in magent uri
26 2013-02-12 00:37:25 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
27 2013-02-12 00:37:29 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: but DHT's fix everything!
28 2013-02-12 00:37:33 <phantomcircuit> yes im aware but the magnet link in the first post doesn't have any
29 2013-02-12 00:37:40 <phantomcircuit> so most of the peers are only on dht
30 2013-02-12 00:37:48 <phantomcircuit> and the link that does lists like 8 trackers
31 2013-02-12 00:37:50 <MC1984> dht works
32 2013-02-12 00:37:53 <MC1984> eventually
33 2013-02-12 00:38:02 <phantomcircuit> most clients will skip a tracker if it returns 0 peers
34 2013-02-12 00:38:13 <gmaxwell> It was intentionally a trackerless torrent.
35 2013-02-12 00:38:25 <phantomcircuit> so with only a handful of peers and a handful of trackers you can basically end up in a huge ridiculous loop
36 2013-02-12 00:38:40 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, im aware
37 2013-02-12 00:38:49 word_ has quit (Changing host)
38 2013-02-12 00:38:50 word_ has joined
39 2013-02-12 00:38:50 <phantomcircuit> just saying it's not super effective with a small number of peers
40 2013-02-12 00:38:58 word_ is now known as word
41 2013-02-12 00:39:00 <MC1984> it should still sort itself out eventually
42 2013-02-12 00:39:02 Guest50938 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
43 2013-02-12 00:39:09 <phantomcircuit> eventually can be hours
44 2013-02-12 00:39:17 <MC1984> only if theres connectivity issues will it never get the torrent
45 2013-02-12 00:39:20 <phantomcircuit> and most people just assume it wont work after a few minutes tops
46 2013-02-12 00:39:21 <gmaxwell> Or never, depending on which software you're using.
47 2013-02-12 00:39:32 <MC1984> so fuck those people
48 2013-02-12 00:39:34 <HM> j
49 2013-02-12 00:39:37 <MC1984> they can IBD like chumps
50 2013-02-12 00:39:54 <MC1984> its not supposed to be widespread anyway
51 2013-02-12 00:40:09 <midnightmagic> MC1984: what's not supposed to be widespread?
52 2013-02-12 00:40:19 <gmaxwell> e.g. rtorrentâ which works fine on many popular DHT'ed torret will happily go weeks without getting anything.
53 2013-02-12 00:40:20 <MC1984> the bootstrap
54 2013-02-12 00:40:31 <gmaxwell> MC1984: people were advocating making it _the_ only way to bootstrap bitcoin.
55 2013-02-12 00:40:53 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah the only way to make rtorrent work with dht is to seed the bootstrap with magnet links that contain trackers
56 2013-02-12 00:40:54 <MC1984> and thats why development is not a democracy
57 2013-02-12 00:41:18 <MC1984> fwiw uttoernt seems to have made some dht changes reently
58 2013-02-12 00:41:23 <midnightmagic> MC1984: Why isn't it supposed to be widespread?
59 2013-02-12 00:41:26 <MC1984> i got 2000 nodes once
60 2013-02-12 00:41:43 <MC1984> the chagnelog said something about improving metadata time
61 2013-02-12 00:41:46 * gavinandresen grumbles about boost::filesystem incompatibilities biting him AGAIN....
62 2013-02-12 00:41:46 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: rtorrent has dht support, and it can workâ it's just super unreliable with small numbers of nodes it seems.
63 2013-02-12 00:42:00 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the problem is it doesn't have any bootstrap method
64 2013-02-12 00:42:10 <MC1984> midnightmagic cos it breaks the trust model or somethin
65 2013-02-12 00:42:16 <MC1984> also its cheating
66 2013-02-12 00:42:16 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: Yes, even if you _manually_ boostrap the DHT it doesn't work right.
67 2013-02-12 00:42:23 <midnightmagic> MC1984: ...
68 2013-02-12 00:42:23 <phantomcircuit> so you pretty much have to go start downloading some popular content to seed the bootstrap
69 2013-02-12 00:42:34 <phantomcircuit> the manual add_peer thing doesn't work
70 2013-02-12 00:42:40 <phantomcircuit> i dont think it ever has
71 2013-02-12 00:43:02 <gmaxwell> May explain why it seemed inconsistent to me: worked on some hosts not on others.
72 2013-02-12 00:43:04 <MC1984> sounds like rtorrent DHT is just fucked up tbh
73 2013-02-12 00:43:15 <MC1984> ive not once had an issue with dht in bittorent
74 2013-02-12 00:43:19 <gmaxwell> MC1984: the bootstrap doesn't impact security in the least.
75 2013-02-12 00:43:30 <Scrat> transmission does DHT like a pro
76 2013-02-12 00:43:37 <gmaxwell> So long as the normal stuff still actually works reliably.
77 2013-02-12 00:43:38 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, it works well once you've got the peer database seeded
78 2013-02-12 00:43:43 <MC1984> well its still cheating
79 2013-02-12 00:43:46 <phantomcircuit> but actually making that happen isn't trivial
80 2013-02-12 00:43:52 <gmaxwell> Scrat: yea, go download the bitcoin torrent and report back how long it took you.
81 2013-02-12 00:43:55 <phantomcircuit> and there's some setting you have to add for it to survive a restart
82 2013-02-12 00:44:02 <phantomcircuit> which im guessing nobody has set
83 2013-02-12 00:44:04 <moore> have you looked a libtorrent http://www.rasterbar.com/products/libtorrent/
84 2013-02-12 00:44:08 <MC1984> doesnt rtorrent use the normal bootstrap nodes?
85 2013-02-12 00:44:18 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, no it doesn't that's my point
86 2013-02-12 00:44:24 <phantomcircuit> it doesn't do http bootstrap for dht
87 2013-02-12 00:44:32 <phantomcircuit> which utorrent and everybody else does
88 2013-02-12 00:44:36 <phantomcircuit> (they all use the utorrent node)
89 2013-02-12 00:44:44 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it's notâ it really has the same security model. It would be a fine thing to use if bittorrent had actually solved the problems we haven't solved, but for the most part it hasn't.
90 2013-02-12 00:45:20 <MC1984> it still requires someone go and make a new bootstrap once in a while
91 2013-02-12 00:45:27 <Scrat> gmaxwell: just did, and it took 20 seconds
92 2013-02-12 00:45:51 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, on vps @ momentovps im getting about 20mbps down
93 2013-02-12 00:45:54 <MC1984> if you guys figure out a way to put bittorrent into satoshi and make it produce a new bootstrap automatically then great
94 2013-02-12 00:46:02 <MC1984> sounds like a pain in hte ass though
95 2013-02-12 00:46:07 <phantomcircuit> either other peers are all home connections or they're throttled
96 2013-02-12 00:46:10 <moore> if you have a wish list for bittorrent features I know people there
97 2013-02-12 00:46:18 <midnightmagic> MC1984: You should code up a DHT participant and submit a patch.
98 2013-02-12 00:46:46 <phantomcircuit> the only reason to use the bittorrent dht is to enable random ip scanning
99 2013-02-12 00:46:48 <MC1984> if i could i would just to troll greg
100 2013-02-12 00:46:57 <phantomcircuit> (yes there are enough peers that you can do that and actually succeed)
101 2013-02-12 00:47:10 <midnightmagic> MC1984: The awesome part would be if it were well-written, clean, and worked well.
102 2013-02-12 00:47:23 <midnightmagic> MC1984: But you have to assume in advance that it won't be accepted. :)
103 2013-02-12 00:47:25 <phantomcircuit> otherwise piggybacking on the bittorrent dht is just an excellent way for some journalist to write a horrible article
104 2013-02-12 00:48:02 <MC1984> phantomcircuit the bittorrent dht is THE dht
105 2013-02-12 00:48:14 <MC1984> except for the weird azureus one
106 2013-02-12 00:48:32 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, my point is that it doesn't add much to the bootstrap for bitcoin
107 2013-02-12 00:48:58 <phantomcircuit> since the bootstrap for the bittorrent dht is simply a fixed dns entry
108 2013-02-12 00:49:20 <MC1984> well
109 2013-02-12 00:49:26 <MC1984> youg otta start somewhere
110 2013-02-12 00:49:36 <phantomcircuit> that's pointless
111 2013-02-12 00:49:49 <phantomcircuit> actually it's worse than pointless
112 2013-02-12 00:49:59 <MC1984> wait what are you talkin about
113 2013-02-12 00:50:03 <phantomcircuit> your linking all the political failure modes of bittorrent with bitcoin and vice versa
114 2013-02-12 00:50:27 <phantomcircuit> "THEYRE JUST PIRATES!"
115 2013-02-12 00:50:33 <phantomcircuit> "THEYRE JUST PRINTING FAKE MONEY!"
116 2013-02-12 00:50:39 <MC1984> oh ffs
117 2013-02-12 00:50:42 <MC1984> its just technology
118 2013-02-12 00:50:42 <Scrat> 20 seconds to grab all metadata obviously
119 2013-02-12 00:50:49 <Scrat> luck?
120 2013-02-12 00:50:53 <phantomcircuit> uh huh
121 2013-02-12 00:50:55 velige has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
122 2013-02-12 00:51:02 <MC1984> hack journos gonna hack
123 2013-02-12 00:51:08 <phantomcircuit> Scrat, 20 seconds is slow for grabbing metadata
124 2013-02-12 00:51:25 <Scrat> re: bootstrap torrent
125 2013-02-12 00:51:28 <phantomcircuit> but yes it's fast in a lot of clients
126 2013-02-12 00:51:33 <phantomcircuit> but it's not in a lot of others
127 2013-02-12 00:51:44 shaez has joined
128 2013-02-12 00:52:04 <MC1984> well if hed make a new one i will seed it
129 2013-02-12 00:52:06 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
130 2013-02-12 00:52:35 <MC1984> i heard the old bootstrap actually doesnt work anymore in 0.8
131 2013-02-12 00:52:57 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, is that the right ip?
132 2013-02-12 00:53:04 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, which one?
133 2013-02-12 00:53:25 kohqu has joined
134 2013-02-12 00:53:26 <phantomcircuit> dnsseed/fixed fallback nodes/irc bootstrap (which i hope nobody is using)
135 2013-02-12 00:53:38 <MC1984> bootstrap.dat
136 2013-02-12 00:53:54 <gmaxwell> Scrat: it sure as heck didn't take 20 seconds to download a 4gbyte file...
137 2013-02-12 00:53:57 <phantomcircuit> i cant imagine why
138 2013-02-12 00:54:06 <phantomcircuit> bootstrap.dat is just skipping the network stuff
139 2013-02-12 00:54:12 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it works fine.
140 2013-02-12 00:54:17 <phantomcircuit> it follows the same code paths as if you received it from the network
141 2013-02-12 00:54:31 <freewil> is it legal to have a transaction with more than 1 output to the same address?
142 2013-02-12 00:54:33 <MC1984> oh i thought i read it gets stuck or something
143 2013-02-12 00:54:38 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, he's just talking about the metadata lookup
144 2013-02-12 00:54:48 <phantomcircuit> freewil, yes
145 2013-02-12 00:55:09 <phantomcircuit> i think you can even generate that with the current client
146 2013-02-12 00:55:27 <MC1984> lolwho you bannin
147 2013-02-12 00:55:31 <gmaxwell> freewil: it's perfectly legal, there is no exposed way to do it in the reference client.
148 2013-02-12 00:55:33 <MC1984> your old friend?
149 2013-02-12 00:55:34 <freewil> phantomcircuit, bitcoind gives me an error
150 2013-02-12 00:55:43 <freewil> thanks gmaxwell and phantomcircuit
151 2013-02-12 00:55:48 <gmaxwell> MC1984: stamit has gone nuts again.
152 2013-02-12 00:56:01 <phantomcircuit> lol that's funny it does give an error
153 2013-02-12 00:56:09 <phantomcircuit> i'll try and do it with rawtransaction
154 2013-02-12 00:56:17 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: nope, can't do it that way either.
155 2013-02-12 00:56:22 <MC1984> yeah i got some dickhead who pings me 100 times when i login to another server
156 2013-02-12 00:56:28 <MC1984> IRC weirdos take it to another level
157 2013-02-12 00:56:33 <freewil> really? cant you pretty much do anything with raw?
158 2013-02-12 00:56:34 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, really
159 2013-02-12 00:56:36 <phantomcircuit> that's unfortunate
160 2013-02-12 00:56:44 pieno has joined
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162 2013-02-12 00:57:02 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: no, it's notâ discourages stupid behavior
163 2013-02-12 00:57:20 <phantomcircuit> i guess
164 2013-02-12 00:57:58 <phantomcircuit> lol
165 2013-02-12 00:58:10 <gmaxwell> (the precrime detectors are going strong today)
166 2013-02-12 00:58:21 kohqu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
167 2013-02-12 00:58:51 <freewil> not sure what the use case would be
168 2013-02-12 00:59:16 <Scrat> gmaxwell: it's 2.5 gb, and I was talking about transmission's DHT implementation
169 2013-02-12 00:59:37 <MC1984> gmaxwell is that an autoban?
170 2013-02-12 00:59:39 <gmaxwell> Scrat: getting the metadata isn't enoughâ you actually have to find some peers.
171 2013-02-12 00:59:48 <MC1984> every non-dictionary 5 character nick?
172 2013-02-12 01:00:01 <Scrat> 14 MB/s down, that good enough?
173 2013-02-12 01:00:29 <gmaxwell> MC1984: no, he's showing up and crapping on other channels. In the past he'd flood here too once banned elsewhere, so I'm just broadcasting.
174 2013-02-12 01:00:38 <gmaxwell> Scrat: Fair enough.
175 2013-02-12 01:01:00 <gmaxwell> Scrat: from now on I appoint you tech support for people who show up on IRC saying it doesn't work. :)
176 2013-02-12 01:01:43 begua1 has joined
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178 2013-02-12 01:02:54 Hashdog has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
179 2013-02-12 01:03:24 <phantomcircuit> Scrat, you wouldn't happen to be in .nl would you
180 2013-02-12 01:03:38 dbe has joined
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183 2013-02-12 01:05:18 <Scrat> phantomcircuit: correct
184 2013-02-12 01:06:12 <Scrat> (server is in NL that is)
185 2013-02-12 01:06:29 <phantomcircuit> Scrat, i just added a seeder at ovh on a 200 mbps line
186 2013-02-12 01:06:34 <phantomcircuit> so that was probably just my node
187 2013-02-12 01:06:35 forloop has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
188 2013-02-12 01:07:06 <phantomcircuit> i guess i'll leave it running
189 2013-02-12 01:09:12 ken` has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
190 2013-02-12 01:11:09 begua1 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
191 2013-02-12 01:12:34 <Scrat> phantomcircuit: 23 peers
192 2013-02-12 01:12:45 <Scrat> can't see number of seeds (web interface :p)
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198 2013-02-12 01:17:32 MrTiggr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
199 2013-02-12 01:17:53 <MC1984> lol massive bitcoin thread on /g/ again
200 2013-02-12 01:18:17 <MC1984> half of them are saying bitcoins are only used to buy CP and the other half are telling those guys to die
201 2013-02-12 01:18:22 <gmaxwell> ah, may explain the rise in idiots.
202 2013-02-12 01:19:00 <MC1984> they only give a shit when the price is high and they think they can print free money again
203 2013-02-12 01:19:43 <MC1984> /g/ had a pool once, it disappeared the second it found a block lol
204 2013-02-12 01:20:18 <Scrat> MC1984: does virgin throttle BT traffic?
205 2013-02-12 01:20:54 <MC1984> thier terms reserve the right to
206 2013-02-12 01:21:11 <MC1984> ontop of the 2GB a night or fuck you clause
207 2013-02-12 01:24:17 <phantomcircuit> Scrat, for some perspective i just started the download with another deluge client in the us and it hasn't downloaded a single byte
208 2013-02-12 01:24:54 <phantomcircuit> all of the peers it found are leechers
209 2013-02-12 01:27:01 <Scrat> but leechers still have some data
210 2013-02-12 01:27:13 <phantomcircuit> not these ones
211 2013-02-12 01:27:23 <phantomcircuit> and im not getting any new peers
212 2013-02-12 01:27:46 <phantomcircuit> both are deluge 1.3.5
213 2013-02-12 01:27:51 <phantomcircuit> so there isn't a client issue
214 2013-02-12 01:27:55 <Eliel_> MC1984: what's /g/?
215 2013-02-12 01:28:07 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: RE peers... talking about my torrent?
216 2013-02-12 01:28:08 <Scrat> Eliel_: you dont wanna know
217 2013-02-12 01:28:11 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, yes
218 2013-02-12 01:28:17 <MC1984> 4chan.org/g/
219 2013-02-12 01:28:21 <MC1984> nothing good happens there
220 2013-02-12 01:29:14 hietho has joined
221 2013-02-12 01:29:19 <Eliel_> I see :)
222 2013-02-12 01:29:22 hietho has quit (Client Quit)
223 2013-02-12 01:31:53 jgarzik has quit (Quit: Client exiting)
224 2013-02-12 01:32:30 <phantomcircuit> it's like im on a totally different dht
225 2013-02-12 01:32:43 <phantomcircuit> it still hasn't downloaded the metadata
226 2013-02-12 01:33:41 meLon has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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238 2013-02-12 01:58:28 <MC1984> never ever use bitcoins. my cousin used it once to buy a lizard and got months in a YDC for concealing monetary interactions.
239 2013-02-12 01:58:43 <MC1984> is lizard a euphemism for something, or an actual lizard?
240 2013-02-12 01:58:46 <MC1984> oh 4chan
241 2013-02-12 02:01:44 <andytoshi> haha
242 2013-02-12 02:01:52 meLon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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250 2013-02-12 02:17:40 <phantomcircuit> Scrat, it's still stuck fyi
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252 2013-02-12 02:18:46 <moore> phantomcircuit, what are you all trying to do with the bitcoin dht? Boot strap the client?
253 2013-02-12 02:18:59 <phantomcircuit> there is no bitcoin dht
254 2013-02-12 02:19:08 <phantomcircuit> im trying to download bootstrap.dat over bittorrent
255 2013-02-12 02:19:12 <moore> err I meen bittorrent
256 2013-02-12 02:19:16 <phantomcircuit> it's the bittorrent dht that's nto working right
257 2013-02-12 02:19:23 <moore> ya
258 2013-02-12 02:19:30 <moore> I just misspoke
259 2013-02-12 02:19:31 <phantomcircuit> it's like the dht is split or something
260 2013-02-12 02:19:35 <moore> hmm
261 2013-02-12 02:19:46 <moore> I know the guy that writes it
262 2013-02-12 02:20:02 <doublec> phantomcircuit: can you see it in btdigg.org?
263 2013-02-12 02:20:08 <moore> well works on the utorrent impl
264 2013-02-12 02:21:24 <MC1984> itson btdigg
265 2013-02-12 02:21:31 <phantomcircuit> https://btdigg.org/search?info_hash=0bb0521942f586ed96203c6f4d136324756f8a9a&q=bootstrap.dat
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269 2013-02-12 02:28:14 <Scrat> phantomcircuit: https://bitfetch.com/?token=izEEk9CRIBND
270 2013-02-12 02:29:01 <phantomcircuit> 24 cents per GB is extortionate :)
271 2013-02-12 02:29:02 <Scrat> thats way more than 200 Mbps
272 2013-02-12 02:29:08 <moore> hu
273 2013-02-12 02:29:33 <moore> you think they have it all ready and are just faking the download?
274 2013-02-12 02:29:57 <MC1984> i just plugged the bootstrap magnet into bittorrent and it got the metadata within 20 seconds
275 2013-02-12 02:30:28 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
276 2013-02-12 02:31:11 <Scrat> phantomcircuit: agreed, only intended for casual downloading
277 2013-02-12 02:32:06 <Scrat> hm, I linked the download didn't I?
278 2013-02-12 02:33:09 nethershaw has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
279 2013-02-12 02:43:37 <Scrat> disregard that link
280 2013-02-12 02:43:39 <Scrat> ;x
281 2013-02-12 02:45:37 graham1_j has joined
282 2013-02-12 02:46:34 <graham1_j> hey, out of curiosity, how genius an idea is it to come up with "can we create some sort of digital diamond , decentralised , and everybody is competing through processing power and decryption to get these digital diamonds?"
283 2013-02-12 02:46:37 <graham1_j> ie. the concept of bitcoin
284 2013-02-12 02:46:44 <graham1_j> assuming somebody came up with that in 2000 or so
285 2013-02-12 02:49:01 <gmaxwell> graham1_j: the idea of scarce digital commodities isn't newâ it was part of the shared cipherpunk fantasy in through the 80s and 90s. Bitcoin's contribution was making it real and pratical.
286 2013-02-12 02:51:00 <graham1_j> cool, thanks
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298 2013-02-12 03:32:30 <denisx> is leveldb version 1.9 ok for bitcoin?
299 2013-02-12 03:38:44 RBecker is now known as rbecker
300 2013-02-12 03:38:49 <gmaxwell> denisx: leveldb is shipped as part of bitcoin, it's not something you obtain or install.
301 2013-02-12 03:39:05 <Luke-Jr> denisx: and yes, it's 1.9
302 2013-02-12 03:39:09 <denisx> gmaxwell: I'm building on freebsd
303 2013-02-12 03:39:22 * Luke-Jr wonders how that's relevant
304 2013-02-12 03:39:38 <denisx> I already have leveldb as a lib here
305 2013-02-12 03:39:45 <Luke-Jr> denisx: bitcoind won't use it
306 2013-02-12 03:39:58 <Luke-Jr> denisx: also, I hope you mean *porting* to FreeBSD, since it's broken right now
307 2013-02-12 03:40:13 <gmaxwell> (and can't use it)
308 2013-02-12 03:40:21 <denisx> Luke-Jr: what is broken? leveldb?
309 2013-02-12 03:40:49 <Luke-Jr> denisx: bitcoind does not work on *BSD at the moment
310 2013-02-12 03:41:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, he could merge my sys_leveldb branch..
311 2013-02-12 03:41:17 <denisx> I use -l leveldb in my makefile
312 2013-02-12 03:41:30 <Luke-Jr> â¦
313 2013-02-12 03:43:27 <gmaxwell> denisx: in any case, system leveldb is unsupported and will likely remain so for the immediate future.
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337 2013-02-12 04:21:19 <benkay> comms question: I want to post a question about spending from multi-sig addresses, but the topic in which i want to respond is super old (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=92865). would y'all prefer I bump that old thread or start a new one?
338 2013-02-12 04:22:59 HM has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
339 2013-02-12 04:25:43 <benkay> bumping old thread.
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373 2013-02-12 06:39:16 <Luke-Jr> invalid UTF-8 really screws up JSON-RPC :<
374 2013-02-12 06:40:10 <BTCOxygen> Luke-Jr: Hi
375 2013-02-12 06:40:55 sarja has quit (Quit: Leaving)
376 2013-02-12 06:41:14 <BTCOxygen> Luke-Jr: I noticed that if I copy my wallet.dat file to another PC and only watch transactions from it. Soon the two wallets become different
377 2013-02-12 06:41:38 <Luke-Jr> actually, it seems even valid UTF-8 does O.o
378 2013-02-12 06:41:54 <BTCOxygen> Luke-Jr: PM?
379 2013-02-12 06:42:06 <Luke-Jr> BTCOxygen: that's why it's not supported and we say you're almost certain to break your wallet
380 2013-02-12 06:42:09 <Luke-Jr> no PM
381 2013-02-12 06:42:33 <wumpus> BTCOxygen: don't do that!
382 2013-02-12 06:42:51 <Luke-Jr> :p
383 2013-02-12 06:43:45 <gmaxwell> BTCOxygen: good observation, they do.
384 2013-02-12 06:44:45 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it would be very nice if there was a way to ask Bitcoin-Qt to total up visible transactions btw; then I could have avoided scripting bitcoind to do my taxes :P
385 2013-02-12 06:45:01 <Luke-Jr> (ok, maybe not..)
386 2013-02-12 06:45:09 <wumpus> it shows a total balance, right?
387 2013-02-12 06:45:24 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yes, but I need to get a total of mining income, etc
388 2013-02-12 06:45:44 <Luke-Jr> (it doesn't show a total of *displayed* txns)
389 2013-02-12 06:45:49 <wumpus> yeah some way to break transactions into categories would be nice
390 2013-02-12 06:45:57 <Luke-Jr> the label search does that fine
391 2013-02-12 06:46:14 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Yea, I dumped all the transactions and split them out by label for that purpose.
392 2013-02-12 06:46:41 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: got scripts to share? :P
393 2013-02-12 06:46:52 kiceek has joined
394 2013-02-12 06:46:54 <gmaxwell> Just some json-rpc to csv export tool would really be all you need. Ideally gnucash should have bitcoin rpc support just like it can tie into banks.
395 2013-02-12 06:46:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'm thinking I need to somehow correlate the amounts with the value at the time I earned them etc :/
396 2013-02-12 06:47:25 * Luke-Jr ponders if there's any accountant that accepts Bitcoin <.<
397 2013-02-12 06:47:37 <gmaxwell> I suspect that gnucash could do that, since it has multicurrency support.
398 2013-02-12 06:48:09 eoss has joined
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400 2013-02-12 06:49:00 <jgarzik> That's what my accountant makes me do: convert X bitcoins on date D to U USD on date D
401 2013-02-12 06:49:44 <gmaxwell> Seems like this is popular http://www.ledger-cli.org/
402 2013-02-12 06:50:30 <gmaxwell> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/155gw5/heres_how_you_use_ledger_to_account_for_bitcoin/
403 2013-02-12 06:52:28 grau has joined
404 2013-02-12 06:52:52 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: how'd you do it?
405 2013-02-12 07:01:09 <Luke-Jr> will have to try ledger, gnucash wants to pull in GNOME
406 2013-02-12 07:01:45 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
407 2013-02-12 07:02:18 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: Excel spreadsheet, generated by a simple script initially
408 2013-02-12 07:08:25 <BTCOxygen> Any bitcoin developer here with a wallet hosted at Blockchain.info ?
409 2013-02-12 07:08:45 * jgarzik hopes not :)
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412 2013-02-12 07:10:54 <BTCOxygen> jgarzik: I have a bitcoin question, But need to show examples of a Blockchain.info hosted wallet
413 2013-02-12 07:11:13 <BTCOxygen> jgarzik: could you create an account please?
414 2013-02-12 07:12:35 <SomeoneWeird> uhh
415 2013-02-12 07:12:41 <SomeoneWeird> bitcoin != blockchain.info
416 2013-02-12 07:13:13 <BTCOxygen> SomeoneWeird: Yeah, But i saw a nice feature on blockchain.info
417 2013-02-12 07:13:15 <gmaxwell> This is the wrong channel for b..o support.
418 2013-02-12 07:13:25 <Luke-Jr> BTCOxygen: it's not a feature, it's a bug
419 2013-02-12 07:13:30 <SomeoneWeird> lol Luke-Jr
420 2013-02-12 07:13:54 <Luke-Jr> BTCOxygen: Bitcoin does not have sending/from addresses, and reusing the same address can lead to your wallet being compromised (in theory)
421 2013-02-12 07:14:49 <gmaxwell> Not only is it a bad keymanagement practice, but it craps all over privacyâ not just for you but also for the people you trade with.
422 2013-02-12 07:15:29 <SomeoneWeird> <Luke-Jr> BTCOxygen: Bitcoin does not have sending/from addresses, and reusing the same address can lead to your wallet being compromised (in theory) < you mean, privacy compromised yeah?
423 2013-02-12 07:15:57 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: also, when we move to quantum-safe wallets, reuse will likely jeopardize the private key
424 2013-02-12 07:16:27 <Luke-Jr> (while not a problem today, setting a precedent that creates this risk in the future is a bad idea)
425 2013-02-12 07:16:31 <SomeoneWeird> quantumsafe? how are we gunna do that?
426 2013-02-12 07:16:37 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: When using a blockchain.info wallet i could send back the change to my sending address
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428 2013-02-12 07:17:13 <SomeoneWeird> which is a bad idea
429 2013-02-12 07:17:14 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: AFAIK the best proposal today is Lamport signatures
430 2013-02-12 07:17:48 <SomeoneWeird> hrmmm
431 2013-02-12 07:20:31 <gmaxwell> BTCOxygen: yea, thats a bad thing to do on a couple counts.
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434 2013-02-12 07:22:23 <BTCOxygen> http://i.imgur.com/CtJVKGf.png
435 2013-02-12 07:22:31 <BTCOxygen> ^^ take a look
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437 2013-02-12 07:22:58 <BTCOxygen> I can choose the sending address
438 2013-02-12 07:23:02 <BTCOxygen> and change address
439 2013-02-12 07:28:20 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin doesn't have a sending address.
440 2013-02-12 07:28:36 <gmaxwell> It's a serious antifeature that they misrepresent the bitcoin protocol that way.
441 2013-02-12 07:29:36 <gmaxwell> And doing so results in dangerous behavior that can cause people to lose money. (e.g. assuming that you can return funds to a previous output addressâ which may send the funds to an entirely unrelated person (e.g. if someone pays you out of mtgox thats what will happen) or into an unrecoverable black hole.
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444 2013-02-12 07:34:44 <andytoshi> what does that 'from' field do?
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447 2013-02-12 07:36:57 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: choses which input(s) it uses.
448 2013-02-12 07:37:23 <gmaxwell> (I dunno if it'll make a redundant transaction to put coin at the requested input if there isn't enough)
449 2013-02-12 07:37:40 <andytoshi> oh, it's a list, not a text field
450 2013-02-12 07:37:47 <andytoshi> that makes slightly less nonsense
451 2013-02-12 07:38:59 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: I understand the risks
452 2013-02-12 07:39:12 <gmaxwell> yea, but more dangerous. Seriously, assuming that the txin's txout point is a from is pretty risky, not just in some hypothetical usecase, but in the way people are currently and have historically been using bitcoin.
453 2013-02-12 07:39:13 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: But is it possible with bitcoind ?
454 2013-02-12 07:39:16 <gmaxwell> BTCOxygen: No.
455 2013-02-12 07:39:49 <BTCOxygen> Then, How is blockchain.info doing it?, i guess they are using bitcoind on thier backend
456 2013-02-12 07:39:57 <gmaxwell> (and I'm doubtful you actually understand, if you're saying things like "I can choose the sending address)
457 2013-02-12 07:40:09 <andytoshi> BTCOxygen: you can put anything on the wire, it's not technically hard
458 2013-02-12 07:40:13 <gmaxwell> BTCOxygen: because they wrote their own software.
459 2013-02-12 07:40:44 <BTCOxygen> closed sorce?
460 2013-02-12 07:40:49 <BTCOxygen> source*
461 2013-02-12 07:41:07 <gmaxwell> BTCOxygen: and it's pretty easy to see that their site is not based on bitcoind: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/21mbtc.png
462 2013-02-12 07:41:28 <gmaxwell> (fwiw, someone else saved thatâ I don't use windows or whatever OS that is)
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465 2013-02-12 07:43:06 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: what is a situation that you could get a bitcoin address from a txin's txout point, but it's not a from?
466 2013-02-12 07:43:14 <andytoshi> man, i wish we had better language for this..
467 2013-02-12 07:43:30 <andytoshi> it seems like weird situations simply couldn't be interpreted as addresses in the first place
468 2013-02-12 07:44:21 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: I think its a bug
469 2013-02-12 07:44:30 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: 21 Million bitcoins?
470 2013-02-12 07:44:39 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: the common cases are things like, I pay you from my mtgox account (or instawallet, or many other bank like things). If you think the prev-in's output is a 'from' and you return my funds they'll go to an unrelated party.
471 2013-02-12 07:45:43 <andytoshi> i gotcha
472 2013-02-12 07:45:46 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: similarly, after sending out all the funds in a wallet someone may destroy/lose/dispose of a wallet... those private keys may not be able to recieve anything anymore.
473 2013-02-12 07:46:01 <gmaxwell> Plus crazy scriptsâ but as you note, those are probably obvious.
474 2013-02-12 07:46:24 <gmaxwell> Plus cases like this: (joint payments) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139581.0
475 2013-02-12 07:46:34 <andytoshi> okay, so in this specific case (blockchain giving a list of its own addresses associated to its own users), bad things won't happen
476 2013-02-12 07:46:44 <gmaxwell> man, wouldn't I love it if someone returned those 40k BTC to me that I transacted with in that thread! :P
477 2013-02-12 07:46:46 <andytoshi> it's just the idea of addresses being "from" points that is dangerous
478 2013-02-12 07:47:08 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: yea, the bad thing happens when someone else acts on the assumption that a txn they recieved was created that way.
479 2013-02-12 07:47:47 <gmaxwell> I don't really need to yell as much about things that hurt yourself when you do themâ self correcting. Things that create externalized costs get more griping on IRC. :)
480 2013-02-12 07:48:16 <andytoshi> cool, i hope somebody reads this and learns something :)
481 2013-02-12 07:48:39 <gmaxwell> even if no one does, I'm still refining my art of making that argument. :)
482 2013-02-12 07:49:13 sgstair has joined
483 2013-02-12 07:49:25 <andytoshi> and i'm learning how to interpret the things that newbies say, so i guess it's a win-win all around
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541 2013-02-12 09:52:33 <EskimoBob> damn, how do I get back to the original ?branch?, after I did $git checkout v0.7.2 (so I can update local files to what ever is in github)
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543 2013-02-12 09:54:51 <kinlo> git checkout master
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545 2013-02-12 09:56:18 <EskimoBob> kinlo: I guess I fraked something up :) because i get "error: you need to resolve your current index first"
546 2013-02-12 09:58:03 <kinlo> probably
547 2013-02-12 09:58:26 <kinlo> you might be better of reading a git tutorial :)
548 2013-02-12 10:02:19 <EskimoBob> kinlo: no, I do not really need to use it that much. I'll just delete the dir and clone it again. I do not make changes to code
549 2013-02-12 10:02:48 <kinlo> in that case, why don't you just browse on github?
550 2013-02-12 10:02:52 <kinlo> files are there too :)
551 2013-02-12 10:04:17 <EskimoBob> i do not really care about the files, I only wanted the source for specific version and compile it. That's it.
552 2013-02-12 10:05:08 <EskimoBob> after that, I can not "reset" ( i hve no idea what the correct words are) it back to "normal" (when you do first pull)
553 2013-02-12 10:05:21 <EskimoBob> or clone or whatever
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555 2013-02-12 10:12:51 <kinlo> if you're compiling, you should use the gitian instructions so you have the correct db versions. Otherwise your wallet might not be readable by any other bitcoin client, rendering your backups of wallet.dat difficult
556 2013-02-12 10:17:35 <EskimoBob> ? I just wanted to go back to default (version or branch or what ever it is called) as it is when you first clone or pull code
557 2013-02-12 10:18:12 <EskimoBob> I have rally hard time explaining this to you because I do not know the proper terminology
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561 2013-02-12 10:30:56 <sipa> EskimoBob: "git reset --hard" will reset your working dir to the state of the last commit
562 2013-02-12 10:31:10 <sipa> EskimoBob: after that, you can always do a checkout to switch to another commit or branch
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565 2013-02-12 10:34:19 <kinlo> EskimoBob: just trying to help, so you're not surprised when you cannot read your wallet.dat anymore, has happened to me :/
566 2013-02-12 10:35:08 <sipa> EskimoBob: if you use a self-compiled version, you always use whatever BDB dev version is available on your system
567 2013-02-12 10:35:17 <sipa> EskimoBob: if you use a precompiled version, it will use 4.8
568 2013-02-12 10:35:43 <kinlo> and bdb versions are not interexchangeable
569 2013-02-12 10:35:58 <sipa> EskimoBob: so if the dev version on your system is later than 4.8, you may be unable to go back to the precompiled version
570 2013-02-12 10:36:08 <sipa> if you only ever use self-compiled versions, there is no problem
571 2013-02-12 10:36:11 <kinlo> just a heads up, it's no big disaster if you know what you are doing :)
572 2013-02-12 10:36:27 <kinlo> sipa: can you upgrade to newer bdb's?
573 2013-02-12 10:36:42 <sipa> yes, if detached
574 2013-02-12 10:36:44 <kinlo> sipa: I've had issues with that too (but not with bitcoin tbh)
575 2013-02-12 10:36:54 <sipa> (and the wallet is always detached at shutdown)
576 2013-02-12 10:37:17 <kinlo> 0.8 only uses bdb for wallet.dat right?
577 2013-02-12 10:38:00 <sipa> indeed
578 2013-02-12 10:38:47 <kinlo> I'll be glad if bdb is gone
579 2013-02-12 10:38:50 <kinlo> I'm no fan :)
580 2013-02-12 10:39:04 <sipa> same
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595 2013-02-12 11:32:09 <rievao> jgarzik, why don't you take a walk outside?
596 2013-02-12 11:32:46 <rievao> Luke-Jr: and you too
597 2013-02-12 11:32:47 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
598 2013-02-12 11:33:32 <rievao> jgarzik: you really should take a walk outside.
599 2013-02-12 11:33:42 <rievao> jgarzik: it will be good for your mental health
600 2013-02-12 11:34:56 <rievao> jgarzik: you see, our profession is like that
601 2013-02-12 11:35:31 <rievao> jgarzik: has a very high ratio of pricks compared to other lines of work
602 2013-02-12 11:39:19 <SomeoneWeird> rievao...
603 2013-02-12 11:39:46 <rievao> SomeoneWeird: yes?
604 2013-02-12 11:40:15 <rievao> SomeoneWeird: what would you like to say to me, SomeoneWeird?
605 2013-02-12 11:41:44 <SomeoneWeird> whats wrong with jgarzik's mental health?
606 2013-02-12 11:41:51 <BTCOxygen> lol
607 2013-02-12 11:42:11 <rievao> SomeoneWeird: he probably spends too much time on the computer
608 2013-02-12 11:42:23 <SomeoneWeird> ...
609 2013-02-12 11:42:29 <BTCOxygen> 278 users on this channel
610 2013-02-12 11:42:31 <rievao> SomeoneWeird: i'm just telling him it will be good for him to go out
611 2013-02-12 11:42:35 <BTCOxygen> only 3 OPs
612 2013-02-12 11:42:39 Hashdog has joined
613 2013-02-12 11:42:52 <SomeoneWeird> more ops than that, BTCOxygen
614 2013-02-12 11:42:59 <rievao> SomeoneWeird: and he knows why i am saying this to him... don't worry
615 2013-02-12 11:43:21 <BTCOxygen> SomeoneWeird: I can only see 3 of them now
616 2013-02-12 11:43:41 <SomeoneWeird> lot's of us just aren't opped :)
617 2013-02-12 11:44:10 <EskimoBob> $ git reset --hard
618 2013-02-12 11:44:13 <EskimoBob> HEAD is now at 32a928e Use github for final 0.7.2 release
619 2013-02-12 11:44:20 <EskimoBob> thank you sipa
620 2013-02-12 11:44:47 <EskimoBob> sipa: I have never used precompiled version :)
621 2013-02-12 11:47:13 <BTCOxygen> SomeoneWeird: is there a place where i can see the list of OPs
622 2013-02-12 11:47:43 JWU42_ is now known as JWU42
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625 2013-02-12 11:48:06 <SomeoneWeird> BTCOxygen, /msg chanserv access #bitcoin-dev list
626 2013-02-12 11:48:51 RBecker is now known as rbecker
627 2013-02-12 11:49:33 <BTCOxygen> SomeoneWeird: thanks
628 2013-02-12 11:49:45 <rievao> i have sympathy for jgarzik... i am being nice to him
629 2013-02-12 11:50:51 <rievao> i would have asked a question like "what does it take for someone to be one of those OPs around here" but from what i've seen, i don't think i want to
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631 2013-02-12 12:01:28 <BTCOxygen> rievao: why?
632 2013-02-12 12:04:32 <rievao> BTCOxygen: they act like pricks, that's why. i don't want to make people think i envy them or want to be one of them
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653 2013-02-12 12:14:27 <SomeoneWeird> rievao, who does?
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655 2013-02-12 12:18:09 <EskimoBob> thank you for your help and adios amigos
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686 2013-02-12 14:13:50 <mariusursache> A bitcoin transaction is composed of Alice sends X to Bill and remaining funds back to one of her accounts. What happens if Alice sends just X to Bill, and nothing back to her?
687 2013-02-12 14:14:58 <sipa> the difference between inputs and outputs of a transaction becomes its fee
688 2013-02-12 14:15:06 <sipa> i.e., the difference goes to the miner
689 2013-02-12 14:15:13 drizztbsd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
690 2013-02-12 14:15:37 <mariusursache> sipa: thanks for clarifying.
691 2013-02-12 14:16:27 <mariusursache> so a normal transaction should be Alice has X. She sends Y to Bob, 0.5 fee, X-Y-0.5 back to her
692 2013-02-12 14:17:02 <mariusursache> if she omits X-Y-0.5 back to her then X-Y goes to the miner
693 2013-02-12 14:17:19 <sipa> bingo
694 2013-02-12 14:17:20 <mariusursache> and the miner would be the person that created the block, right?
695 2013-02-12 14:17:47 <mariusursache> the one that collected the original 50/25 BTC
696 2013-02-12 14:17:52 drizztbsd has joined
697 2013-02-12 14:17:59 <sipa> "original" ?
698 2013-02-12 14:18:09 <sipa> no, the one who puts that transaction into a block
699 2013-02-12 14:18:19 <sipa> where the funds come from is irrelevant
700 2013-02-12 14:18:24 <Happzz> if a transaction goes unconfirmed for X time or soemthing, would it eventually be returned to the sender?
701 2013-02-12 14:18:30 <Happzz> or that'll just die somewjhere and be gone forever
702 2013-02-12 14:18:57 <mariusursache> ah, so to the one that creates the next block, where the transaction is incorporated?
703 2013-02-12 14:19:13 <sipa> Happzz: one important thing to realize is that there is not a single consistent world view on the state
704 2013-02-12 14:20:01 moarrr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
705 2013-02-12 14:20:04 <sipa> a transaction cannot be reversed, ever
706 2013-02-12 14:20:15 <sipa> but that doesn't mean everyone will take it into account
707 2013-02-12 14:20:31 moarrr has joined
708 2013-02-12 14:20:37 <Happzz> so i sent 0.5 to mtgox, and it takes more than usual to be confirmed
709 2013-02-12 14:20:54 <Happzz> do i just keep waiting? can it possibly never be inserted in the blockchain?
710 2013-02-12 14:21:11 <sipa> your own client (at least, every client i know of) will unconditionally keep considering your own transaction as valid
711 2013-02-12 14:21:24 <Happzz> how's that related?
712 2013-02-12 14:22:08 <sipa> if you can get a miner to accept a conflicting transaction into the chain, most of the world will likely consider the old one invalid
713 2013-02-12 14:22:29 <sipa> from an end-user point of view, this is very hard right now
714 2013-02-12 14:22:41 <sipa> as clients don't support (locally) cancelling a transaction
715 2013-02-12 14:22:44 <Happzz> i never said conflicting..
716 2013-02-12 14:23:05 <sipa> if you consider a transaction valid, it will never automatically become invalid
717 2013-02-12 14:23:14 <sipa> so no, there is no automatic return to sender
718 2013-02-12 14:23:16 <Happzz> that wasn't my question
719 2013-02-12 14:23:26 <Happzz> [16:02] <Happzz> so i sent 0.5 to mtgox, and it takes more than usual to be confirmed
720 2013-02-12 14:23:27 <Happzz> [16:03] <Happzz> do i just keep waiting? can it possibly never be inserted in the blockchain?
721 2013-02-12 14:23:35 <sipa> just keep waiting, yes
722 2013-02-12 14:23:43 <Happzz> ... can it possibly never be inserted in the blockchain?
723 2013-02-12 14:23:53 <sipa> in theory, that's certainly possible
724 2013-02-12 14:23:59 <Happzz> in practice?
725 2013-02-12 14:24:20 <sipa> in practice, it will be confirmed if you wait long enough (and used a client with the necessary safety rules to create it)
726 2013-02-12 14:24:32 <Happzz> stock bitcoin-qt
727 2013-02-12 14:24:46 <sipa> just wait :)
728 2013-02-12 14:24:49 <mariusursache> Happzz: how long it passed since you made the transaction?
729 2013-02-12 14:24:51 <Happzz> okay. thanks.
730 2013-02-12 14:25:02 <Happzz> mariusursache 15 mintutes or so
731 2013-02-12 14:25:04 <Happzz> minutes even
732 2013-02-12 14:25:16 <sipa> that's completely normal
733 2013-02-12 14:25:21 <sipa> ;;bc,tslb
734 2013-02-12 14:25:22 <gribble> Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
735 2013-02-12 14:25:32 <sipa> there may not even have been a block since then
736 2013-02-12 14:25:35 <Happzz> each of my last xactions took like a minuet at most
737 2013-02-12 14:25:37 <mariusursache> Happzz: that's only 1 block
738 2013-02-12 14:25:55 <Happzz> aw
739 2013-02-12 14:25:59 <Scrat> Happzz: i've had a no fee transaction take 36 hrs before it got included into a block. don't worry about it
740 2013-02-12 14:26:22 <Happzz> i don't wanna wait 36 hrs :(
741 2013-02-12 14:26:29 <mariusursache> Scrat: no fee transactions go in slower?
742 2013-02-12 14:26:36 <Happzz> i think there's no fee on that transaction either btw
743 2013-02-12 14:26:59 <sipa> Happzz: was the transaction received by the receiver?
744 2013-02-12 14:27:29 <Happzz> it's mtgox. they wouldn't show the balance change before it's confirmed, i assume
745 2013-02-12 14:28:05 <Happzz> i see the transaction on blockchain.info tho
746 2013-02-12 14:29:48 <mariusursache> Happzz: go for a walk, coffee, something and come back in 15 minutes :)
747 2013-02-12 14:29:59 <Happzz> right
748 2013-02-12 14:30:01 <Happzz> okay ;)
749 2013-02-12 14:30:22 <gavinandresen> what is up with this transaction: http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/txlist/#029c1d2c3fbcb8bc804f0e4ad3befae11482fb4aa132be6a2b66e002136f274f
750 2013-02-12 14:30:43 <gavinandresen> ⦠somebody paid a 0.18 BTC fee to play SatoshiDice ???
751 2013-02-12 14:30:48 KIDC has quit (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com ))
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753 2013-02-12 14:31:59 <Eliel_> gavinandresen: maybe it's someone testing their own code that creates transactions :P
754 2013-02-12 14:32:07 <Scrat> mariusursache: it depends. and the conditions on which it depends makes my feeble brain hurt
755 2013-02-12 14:32:53 <kinlo> if someone would have payed 0.18BTC fee, why is the transaction still unconfirmed?
756 2013-02-12 14:33:03 <kinlo> it would make sense that any miner would put it into a block
757 2013-02-12 14:33:22 <gavinandresen> kinlo: might have been sent just a minute or two ago
758 2013-02-12 14:33:34 <sturles> It is quite old, isn't it? Jan. 11, 2013, 9:31 a.m. and still noit confirmed?
759 2013-02-12 14:33:58 <kinlo> gavinandresen: there is no date in a transaction right?
760 2013-02-12 14:34:16 <Eliel_> kinlo: no date, thus it's the date bitcoincharts.com received it.
761 2013-02-12 14:34:18 <gavinandresen> no, no date in a transaction-- dates on that page must be when it was first broadcast?
762 2013-02-12 14:34:18 <kinlo> gavinandresen: so the only way the site can put a date on it would be by timestamping it itselves right?
763 2013-02-12 14:34:52 <kinlo> so again, if it has been broadcasted a month ago, it should have been in a block already
764 2013-02-12 14:35:04 <gavinandresen> kinlo: right, I didn't notice the date....
765 2013-02-12 14:35:20 <kinlo> bitcoind doesn't forget transactions as long as they remain valid right?
766 2013-02-12 14:35:22 <Scrat> b.i can't find that txid
767 2013-02-12 14:35:28 <kinlo> and bitcoind hasn't been restarted
768 2013-02-12 14:35:54 <sturles> Looks like a double spend.
769 2013-02-12 14:35:56 <sturles> http://blockchain.info/tx-index/14482869/ce6651b07cd0c18200e1b826f5a6fb82d44a6429c6b8d4c01cb49ae55ed28c36
770 2013-02-12 14:36:09 <sturles> An attempt to double spend.
771 2013-02-12 14:36:13 <kinlo> if it's a double spent, bitcoincharts should delete it
772 2013-02-12 14:36:15 agricocb has joined
773 2013-02-12 14:36:23 <gavinandresen> yes, smells like a bug in bitcoincharts
774 2013-02-12 14:36:27 root2_ has joined
775 2013-02-12 14:38:05 <sipa> kinlo: before 0.7, it even retained transactions in the mempool whose inputs are spent by a conflicting transaction that was mined
776 2013-02-12 14:38:23 <kinlo> eh, that sounds like a bug :p
777 2013-02-12 14:39:13 <sipa> eh, before 0.8
778 2013-02-12 14:39:47 root2 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
779 2013-02-12 14:40:57 <kinlo> I can't wait for 0.8 :)
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785 2013-02-12 14:43:15 <Scrat> unrelated question: mixers work by disassociating end outputs from the original inputs. what if a mixer were to pass all inputs through a single address (or a single tx) thus associating all of them. obviously it would have to be high latency for it to work well
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787 2013-02-12 14:44:22 <HM> you can do that, but you'd want to randomise the transfer outside the single address
788 2013-02-12 14:44:24 agath has joined
789 2013-02-12 14:44:26 <sipa> Scrat: that's exactly what a mixer does?
790 2013-02-12 14:44:35 <HM> it also makes it simpler to track transactions of a certain size
791 2013-02-12 14:44:51 <gavinandresen> single address is bad because you have to 100% trust whoever owns that private key
792 2013-02-12 14:45:50 <Scrat> you either have to trust an external source or implement gmaxwell's phD-thesis-level protocol
793 2013-02-12 14:45:55 <gavinandresen> it's much better to do what gmaxwell did, and associate a bunch of unrelated addresses
794 2013-02-12 14:46:00 <Happzz> still not confirmed :'(
795 2013-02-12 14:46:09 <sipa> Happzz: wait a few hours
796 2013-02-12 14:46:12 <gavinandresen> phD thesis level? naahâ¦.
797 2013-02-12 14:46:18 rdymac has joined
798 2013-02-12 14:46:22 <Happzz> oh man. hours now?
799 2013-02-12 14:46:37 <Scrat> sipa: most mixers I've seen guarantee disassociation
800 2013-02-12 14:47:06 <sipa> i don't follow what you mean by association or dissociation
801 2013-02-12 14:47:07 <HM> Surely the key to a good mixer is sheer volume
802 2013-02-12 14:47:14 <HM> All mixing is useless if you're the only sod using it
803 2013-02-12 14:47:26 <Scrat> the fact that you never receive the same coins
804 2013-02-12 14:47:57 <HM> So if only 2 people use a mixer, it becomes a straight trade :P
805 2013-02-12 14:48:01 <Scrat> HM: yeah you need volume
806 2013-02-12 14:48:30 <kinlo> the only way a mixer is going to work is if you have a massive amount of volume
807 2013-02-12 14:48:38 <kinlo> which you clearly don't
808 2013-02-12 14:48:45 <sipa> Scrat: define "the same coins" ?
809 2013-02-12 14:48:55 <Scrat> taint
810 2013-02-12 14:49:03 <sipa> oh, you mean a transaction linked to your own inputs
811 2013-02-12 14:49:04 <sipa> i see
812 2013-02-12 14:49:13 <HM> kinlo: in the face of low volume you could just leave the coins in the pool for longer
813 2013-02-12 14:49:22 <HM> but obviously that's inconvenient
814 2013-02-12 14:49:28 <kinlo> indeed
815 2013-02-12 14:50:51 <Scrat> HM: besides high volume there needs to be randomness in both time and output addresses
816 2013-02-12 14:51:04 <Scrat> multiple input addresses -> multiple out for each mix
817 2013-02-12 14:51:27 <HM> Indeed
818 2013-02-12 14:51:42 <HM> what's this PhD level algorithm?
819 2013-02-12 14:53:04 <gavinandresen> I think the PhD level algorithm is "Get N inputs from N people of X bitcoins each. Create a single transaction that has N inputs and N outputs, and get everybody to sign it. Done."
820 2013-02-12 14:53:55 <Scrat> I was exaggerating but here it is https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139581.msg1488128#msg1488128
821 2013-02-12 14:54:04 <gavinandresen> If N is 10, then you get 10% less taint every time you send your coins through a mix, with zero chance the mixer will rip you off.
822 2013-02-12 14:54:21 <gavinandresen> Do that three times, and you're down to 0.1% taint...
823 2013-02-12 14:54:58 <HM> Sounds cool, but mixers also want to make money
824 2013-02-12 14:55:15 <Scrat> gavinandresen: the entire deal is about blinding the other outputs
825 2013-02-12 14:56:19 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
826 2013-02-12 14:56:31 <gavinandresen> Scrat: ok, yeah, the blinding protocol IS PhD level. I'd be satisfied trusting that one of the mixers was not the CIA, and would use a few mixers
827 2013-02-12 14:57:13 <Scrat> HM: nothing wrong with that, and a randomized fee screws up taint analysis even more
828 2013-02-12 14:57:16 <gavinandresen> In other words: I'd somewhat trust that the mixer wasn't keeping a record of inputs-->outputs. I would NOT trust a mixer to hold my coins.
829 2013-02-12 14:57:40 <HM> i have a good mixing algorithm
830 2013-02-12 14:57:49 <gavinandresen> If I was serious, I'd use tor to connect to the mixer, of course.....
831 2013-02-12 14:58:09 <gavinandresen> HM: cool, go implement it.
832 2013-02-12 14:58:34 <gavinandresen> Mixers seem to be one of the many things that geeks love to talk about but never actually get around to doing....
833 2013-02-12 14:58:58 <jgarzik> A good mixer needs to be trustworthy, and have volume
834 2013-02-12 14:59:01 <gavinandresen> (gmaxwell excluded, I'm happy he's doing it)
835 2013-02-12 14:59:05 <jgarzik> lots of chicken-and-egg there
836 2013-02-12 14:59:29 <HM> it's pretty hard to justify a legal mixing service isn't it
837 2013-02-12 15:00:33 <HM> i mean until you start getting paid your wages in bitcoin you don't really have to worry about hiding your porn habit from your boss or your wife
838 2013-02-12 15:01:04 <gavinandresen> I dunno⦠there are good privacy reasons for mixing. Consider people who join the Foundation. If the Foundation makes a big payment, it bundles together payments from multiple members, revealing a little information about who has joined.
839 2013-02-12 15:02:06 <kinlo> creating a mixing service is easy, getting the volume is the tricky part
840 2013-02-12 15:02:18 <kinlo> the *sustained* volume
841 2013-02-12 15:02:21 <HM> the same goes for many pure financial services
842 2013-02-12 15:02:50 <kinlo> you will need several volunteers who don't mind sending a lot of coins towards your service just to keep the volume up
843 2013-02-12 15:02:53 gigavps has joined
844 2013-02-12 15:03:49 <Scrat> couldn't you support the initial low volume with your own bankroll?
845 2013-02-12 15:04:06 <HM> I think mixing services should probably latch on to other services for custom, like blockchain.info does with web wallets.
846 2013-02-12 15:04:15 <HM> I mean take a loan service like Zopa
847 2013-02-12 15:04:39 <kinlo> hmmmz, aren't there already several mixing services?
848 2013-02-12 15:04:39 <HM> The loan company needs to know who you are to issue a loan, but you don't want whoever you spend your loan with to know it was borrowed money
849 2013-02-12 15:04:51 <gigavps> i have a question regarding the submitblock() rpc method
850 2013-02-12 15:04:57 <HM> So a company issuing loans should probably use a mixing service on outputs
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853 2013-02-12 15:05:03 <Scrat> b.i mixing is useless though
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855 2013-02-12 15:05:10 <Scrat> randomized fee will make it a _lot_ harder
856 2013-02-12 15:05:28 <gigavps> does this method allow for any block to be submitted through it or does the template the block was generated from have to come from that specific bitcoind?
857 2013-02-12 15:05:42 <Scrat> unless everyone agrees to send in 1 btc chunks
858 2013-02-12 15:08:22 <Scrat> there is no taint but you can match the input->output address pair with high probability because 1) there's only 1 input and 1 output 2) the satoshi values add up (minus 1.5% + mintxfee) 3) the timestamps match (or are close enough)
859 2013-02-12 15:09:48 <sipa> gigavps: any valid block
860 2013-02-12 15:10:05 <sipa> gigavps: it processes it as if it were received from network
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862 2013-02-12 15:10:23 <gigavps> interesting
863 2013-02-12 15:10:26 <gigavps> good to know
864 2013-02-12 15:11:27 <gigavps> i'm wondering does this allow for man in the middle attacks with mining
865 2013-02-12 15:11:47 <sipa> ...?
866 2013-02-12 15:11:59 <gigavps> nevermind
867 2013-02-12 15:12:02 <gigavps> i'm dumb
868 2013-02-12 15:12:13 <gigavps> the generation txn is already in the block
869 2013-02-12 15:12:22 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
870 2013-02-12 15:12:23 <gigavps> good to go :)
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879 2013-02-12 15:44:44 <sipa> petertodd: are you suggestion changing the transaction validity rules, or just suggesting to automatically prune transaction outputs which should be trivially invalid scriptPubKeys already?
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924 2013-02-12 17:18:17 <HM> just read a nice paper on secret sharing that doesn't involve Shamir polynomials
925 2013-02-12 17:18:24 <HM> any uses for secret sharing in bitcoin?
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929 2013-02-12 17:24:49 <Scrat> HM how about this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141503.0
930 2013-02-12 17:25:13 <sipa> the problem with secret sharing, is that at some point you still need to combine the secrets in one place
931 2013-02-12 17:25:19 d4de has joined
932 2013-02-12 17:25:20 <sipa> multisig doesn't have this problem
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936 2013-02-12 17:30:37 <HM> sipa: true but it doesn't give you perfect shanon security or whatever, hashes allow brute force. i guess that's a trade off
937 2013-02-12 17:31:23 <HM> it's a pretty cool paper anyway, http://eprint.iacr.org/2008/409.pdf
938 2013-02-12 17:33:58 <HM> *shannon
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944 2013-02-12 17:44:02 <HM> perhaps there's room for secret sharing for bumping up security with hierarchical wallets
945 2013-02-12 17:45:03 <sipa> i don't see an advantage of secret sharing over multisig
946 2013-02-12 17:45:12 <sipa> except for smaller transactions
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958 2013-02-12 18:11:30 <HM> sipa: one advantage, multisig is immutable once setup, right?
959 2013-02-12 18:11:45 <HM> if you want to add a trustee you need to spend and setup a new tx
960 2013-02-12 18:12:32 <HM> i guess that can be a pro considering the blockchain is public, whereas arbitrary m of n sets between trustees could conspire against you until it's too late ;)
961 2013-02-12 18:16:58 <HM> (and you'd never know who betrayed the trust)
962 2013-02-12 18:17:34 <kjj> I don't follow your logic
963 2013-02-12 18:18:23 <kjj> if the trustees are generating their own keys, the only way they can verify that their key is present in a P2SH script is if they have the script available
964 2013-02-12 18:18:57 <kjj> so in either system, the keyholders could conspire offline
965 2013-02-12 18:19:45 occulta has joined
966 2013-02-12 18:20:56 <HM> kjj: P2SH?
967 2013-02-12 18:21:18 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
968 2013-02-12 18:21:35 <kjj> pay to script hash. it is how multisig is normally implemented
969 2013-02-12 18:22:11 axhlf has joined
970 2013-02-12 18:22:28 <gmaxwell> kjj: I don't follow your keyholders could conspire thing. If you care what the rules are for a p2sh address, you make the party giving it to you disclose the scriptâ of course.
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973 2013-02-12 18:23:06 <HM> I think what I'm trying to say is under a secret sharing scheme you can reconstruct the secret (if you have the shares) and then resplit it to devise new shares. Those shares are still valid for the original tx. thereby obscuring who betrayed you
974 2013-02-12 18:23:26 <HM> this isn't true in MULTISIG?
975 2013-02-12 18:23:44 <HM> it's the difference between signing and sharing fundamentally, i guess
976 2013-02-12 18:24:36 <gmaxwell> HM: secret sharing can't accomplish the useful thing that group signatures or multiple signatures can in any caseâ perhaps this is what you're saying?â with a split secret you must combine it to use it, and then the computer/person who did that can then do whatever they want.
977 2013-02-12 18:24:40 <kjj> oh, eww. yeah, multisig doesn't work that way.
978 2013-02-12 18:25:24 rdponticelli has joined
979 2013-02-12 18:26:24 <HM> I guess there may be applications in arbitration, but they can be solved in other ways
980 2013-02-12 18:27:40 <kjj> I guess secret sharing could be useful in cases where you intentionally don't want to be able to know who did it
981 2013-02-12 18:28:22 stalled has joined
982 2013-02-12 18:28:27 <jgarzik> "I went ahead and upgraded my public node to the .8 RC and in the past 36 hours, I have noticed that I have had an increase of almost 3x in the amount of bandwidth being used. it went from 2-3 GB outgoing per day to almost 10 GB outgoing per day." https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=142151.msg1521830#msg1521830
983 2013-02-12 18:28:42 <jgarzik> we need network monitoring <sigh>
984 2013-02-12 18:29:03 <HM> kjj: that's true
985 2013-02-12 18:29:04 <jgarzik> some good ways to notice abnormal behavior of any sort
986 2013-02-12 18:29:19 <jgarzik> whether it's new users, or flooding attacks, or just new traffic patterns
987 2013-02-12 18:29:50 <kjj> bootstrapping a new node is somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 GB worth of traffic
988 2013-02-12 18:30:17 <gmaxwell> yea... not so sure that comment is interesting... though it would certantly be better to have better ways of saying "that doesn't sound interesting"
989 2013-02-12 18:30:24 <kjj> if we assume people turn their computers off occasionally, that load was previously spread over multiple nodes. now one fast guy can do the whole thing
990 2013-02-12 18:30:35 <gmaxwell> seeing 10GB outgoing can just be "you got reannounced and now people are pulling from you"
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993 2013-02-12 18:33:10 * jgarzik wonders about the current favorite open source support (trouble ticket) system. zendesk seems to cost $$ </offtopic>
994 2013-02-12 18:33:32 <jgarzik> but yeah, that comment about 10GB could certainly be some random sample
995 2013-02-12 18:34:04 <jgarzik> it would be nice to have the tools to know more, and be better able to answer that sort of question more definitively
996 2013-02-12 18:34:49 <gmaxwell> Sure. â and not terribly difficult to create either. But? it doesn't exist. the existing metrics things people have done have been fairly poor and are unmaintained.
997 2013-02-12 18:34:49 <jgarzik> both global network analytics, as well as tools a local user can use to observe their P2P node usage at a more fine-grained level
998 2013-02-12 18:34:50 vampireb has joined
999 2013-02-12 18:35:06 <jgarzik> i.e. for the local user, keep per-P2P-message-type message and byte counts
1000 2013-02-12 18:35:42 <jgarzik> sadly blockchain.info seems to be the most maintained
1001 2013-02-12 18:36:58 <gmaxwell> a lot of the data it puts up is highly and ambigiously cooked, or only available in graph form... pretty much.
1002 2013-02-12 18:37:04 <gmaxwell> er s/much/meh/
1003 2013-02-12 18:37:31 <gmaxwell> (not that cooking is bad, but for monitoring purposes you really want both)
1004 2013-02-12 18:39:17 <gavinandresen> sipa gmaxwell jgarzik : what are your thoughts on taking rc1 to final ?
1005 2013-02-12 18:39:54 <gmaxwell> Ha. I'm concerned that we haven't found more problems in RC1 yet.
1006 2013-02-12 18:40:19 <gavinandresen> agree, Mr. Murphy says that as soon as we release a 0.8 final something nasty will crop up....
1007 2013-02-12 18:40:34 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: No objections, though caution says I would wait a few more days
1008 2013-02-12 18:40:54 <gavinandresen> ⦠but so far the only things close to showstoppers are the crash-at-shutdown (which I can live with) and the weird bad_alloc (which might be creating too many threads)
1009 2013-02-12 18:41:18 * jgarzik goes to open an issue :)
1010 2013-02-12 18:41:21 <sipa> and the build issues?
1011 2013-02-12 18:41:35 <gmaxwell> (FWIW, I've not even tested 0.8rc1 myself yet â I'll have my computers back on wednesday)
1012 2013-02-12 18:41:39 <sipa> i suppose you can fix those directly in final
1013 2013-02-12 18:41:52 <gavinandresen> right, I assume we'll pull a fix for the windows gitian build issue. I already pulled the mac build issue fix
1014 2013-02-12 18:42:20 <gavinandresen> ok, so we need to release final before gmaxwell has a chance to break it :)
1015 2013-02-12 18:42:38 <gmaxwell> haha.
1016 2013-02-12 18:42:52 <gmaxwell> I'm surprised more people haven't been totally confused by the upgrade process.
1017 2013-02-12 18:43:29 <gavinandresen> seriously: agreed on waiting a few days. Tentative plan: spin a 0.8 final Friday if no major issues crop up...
1018 2013-02-12 18:43:56 <sipa> i was assuming there'd be an RC2 anyway, since there have already been some changes
1019 2013-02-12 18:44:10 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: perhaps fix the build stuff, whatever you plan for final, now and then issue an RC2 (even if its not functionally different) to encourage more people to test.
1020 2013-02-12 18:44:11 runeksvendsen has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1021 2013-02-12 18:45:05 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: you think more people will test a rc2 than a rc1 ?
1022 2013-02-12 18:45:30 <gmaxwell> Yes, I do. But not just thatâ producing another announcment will pick up more people.
1023 2013-02-12 18:45:34 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: heavy getwork RPC'ing causes bitcoind to freeze at shutdown
1024 2013-02-12 18:45:41 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: would not classify as release blocker
1025 2013-02-12 18:45:45 <sipa> pull hal, issue rc2, tell people it's faster... i'm sure there'll be more testing :p
1026 2013-02-12 18:45:53 <sipa> j/k
1027 2013-02-12 18:45:54 <jgarzik> ;p
1028 2013-02-12 18:46:01 <gavinandresen> heh
1029 2013-02-12 18:46:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: Hal is how we get people to deploy 0.8.1. :P
1030 2013-02-12 18:46:06 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: 100% agreed with gmaxwell
1031 2013-02-12 18:46:14 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I post the -rc1 stuff on reddit
1032 2013-02-12 18:46:21 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: thus, new post == new reddit link == new testers
1033 2013-02-12 18:46:33 <gavinandresen> Looking at the rc1 download numbers on sourceforge, we've got probably 400+ downloads....
1034 2013-02-12 18:47:00 <gmaxwell> (Basically, I think the evidence (lack of confused users, lack of new bugs) suggests we're undertested... so we may get good marginal returns on just turning the crank)
1035 2013-02-12 18:47:02 lupine313 has joined
1036 2013-02-12 18:47:12 <jgarzik> -rc1 successfully minted a ASIC mined block :)
1037 2013-02-12 18:47:19 <jgarzik> -rc1 + eloipool
1038 2013-02-12 18:47:59 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I think we won't see confused users until we release a 0.8 final. People who try release candidates tend to be more clue-full
1039 2013-02-12 18:48:03 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: [ot] please post about your success solo mining. (I'd like people who gets asic boxes who want to solo mine to know that its possible to do so!)
1040 2013-02-12 18:48:36 <gavinandresen> I'm pushing back against a rc2 just because spinning a release eats up a good part of a day for me
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1042 2013-02-12 18:51:09 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: already did: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140539.msg1518264#msg1518264
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1044 2013-02-12 18:51:50 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: okay, well we can still make more announcement absent a release.
1045 2013-02-12 18:57:02 <jgarzik> <KuKzz> now we have a single user with 800gh? 0_0
1046 2013-02-12 18:57:03 <jgarzik> <Eleuthria> Yes.
1047 2013-02-12 18:57:03 <jgarzik> <Eleuthria> Welcome to the future.
1048 2013-02-12 18:57:17 mariusursache has quit (Quit: mariusursache)
1049 2013-02-12 18:57:21 <Luke-Jr> O.o
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1051 2013-02-12 18:57:48 <gmaxwell> thats only about 12 avalon units worth.
1052 2013-02-12 18:58:50 <jgarzik> allegedly 53 have been shipped out, I saw in one post
1053 2013-02-12 18:59:02 <gmaxwell> I'm highly skeptical of that.
1054 2013-02-12 18:59:37 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'd suspect HashPower.org
1055 2013-02-12 18:59:40 gribble has joined
1056 2013-02-12 18:59:49 <Luke-Jr> or .com or whatever
1057 2013-02-12 18:59:57 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1058 2013-02-12 19:00:13 <sipa> wait... who was 800GH/s or where does this information come from?
1059 2013-02-12 19:00:20 * gavinandresen goes back to making bitcoin: links work on the mac....
1060 2013-02-12 19:00:28 <gmaxwell> sipa: one user on btcguild.
1061 2013-02-12 19:02:59 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: who runs hashpower.com?
1062 2013-02-12 19:03:05 <jgarzik> it is another gpumax?
1063 2013-02-12 19:03:37 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: yes, Ukto
1064 2013-02-12 19:03:44 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: #hashpower on freenode
1065 2013-02-12 19:08:06 <sipa> gavinandresen: afaik, wumpus was thinking about changing the progressbar still for 0.8
1066 2013-02-12 19:08:34 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: Do they publish where they point their hash power?
1067 2013-02-12 19:08:40 <gavinandresen> sipa: ok with me, sounds like a low-risk change
1068 2013-02-12 19:08:56 <sipa> i don't get it: With our interface, you can manage your workers from anywhere in the world! You can prioritize pools
1069 2013-02-12 19:09:02 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: dunno
1070 2013-02-12 19:09:08 <sipa> sounds like you get to control where your hashpower goes yourself
1071 2013-02-12 19:09:19 <Luke-Jr> sipa: you do
1072 2013-02-12 19:09:27 <sipa> so it's not like gpumax?
1073 2013-02-12 19:09:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: gpumax didn't let you control it at all?
1074 2013-02-12 19:09:39 <sipa> where you sell you hashpower to the highest bidder
1075 2013-02-12 19:09:47 <sipa> no idea, never used it
1076 2013-02-12 19:09:48 <Luke-Jr> sipa: highest bidder is part of hashpower
1077 2013-02-12 19:09:54 <jgarzik> sipa: might e.g. enable auto-bidding/auto-hopping: choose your pool based on current rates
1078 2013-02-12 19:10:09 <jgarzik> sipa: and if someone bids higher than any pool, they can buy hash power
1079 2013-02-12 19:10:09 <Luke-Jr> you can opt out of that; and when not leasing, you can control it more specifically
1080 2013-02-12 19:10:17 <sipa> right
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1083 2013-02-12 19:15:42 <gmaxwell> I wish I knew how to preclude these services, they really undermine the economic reasoning behind mining security. I mean, arguably it will market self correct, but only after the first cryptocurrency it destroys. :)
1084 2013-02-12 19:18:42 <rievao> ^ why are you still letting this guy talk here?
1085 2013-02-12 19:19:10 <rievao> as i nothing has happened
1086 2013-02-12 19:19:15 <rievao> as if everything is fine
1087 2013-02-12 19:19:36 veralibertas has joined
1088 2013-02-12 19:22:20 <gavinandresen> I wonder how large a fidelity bond would be large enough to deter rievao from being an ass.....
1089 2013-02-12 19:22:51 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: he's spending money to be a pain now (paying for proxies), so clearly non-zero.
1090 2013-02-12 19:22:56 <gavinandresen> yup
1091 2013-02-12 19:23:30 denisx has joined
1092 2013-02-12 19:23:38 <gavinandresen> rich people can be jerks. In fact, it may be that spoiled rich kids are the biggest jerks....
1093 2013-02-12 19:23:53 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1094 2013-02-12 19:25:31 <sipa> rievao?
1095 2013-02-12 19:27:18 <denisx> sipa: I started yester 0.8 HEAD with a .bitcoin from 0.7.2. it did run for an hour to get all blocks, but only to the block at the time I started it, it did not get any newer blocks. I needed to restart for that.
1096 2013-02-12 19:27:30 <denisx> sipa: is that maybe a bug?
1097 2013-02-12 19:27:39 <denisx> yesterday
1098 2013-02-12 19:27:42 <gavinandresen> sipa: rievao seems to be the latest incarnation of gmaxwell's stalker
1099 2013-02-12 19:27:51 <sipa> denisx: #2228
1100 2013-02-12 19:28:01 <sipa> denisx: known issue
1101 2013-02-12 19:28:05 <denisx> sipa: ok
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1109 2013-02-12 19:36:32 <HM> how large is a ECDSA sig in bitcoin?
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1111 2013-02-12 19:37:24 <sipa> HM: in memory? serialized?
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1114 2013-02-12 19:37:43 <HM> either/both
1115 2013-02-12 19:38:24 <HM> I'm looking at the feasibility of just storing sigs of tx's created from a template rather than the entire tx
1116 2013-02-12 19:38:29 <HM> and reconstructing them later
1117 2013-02-12 19:39:18 <kjj> you can probably save a tiny little bit that way
1118 2013-02-12 19:39:45 <HM> 64 bytes isn't it
1119 2013-02-12 19:39:53 <HM> r+s
1120 2013-02-12 19:40:05 <sipa> in DER serialization (which is used inside transactions), around 72 bytes iirc
1121 2013-02-12 19:40:06 <HM> i guess storing the whole ScriptSig is fine
1122 2013-02-12 19:40:15 <kjj> your savings is in the parts of the template that are common to all matching transactions
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1124 2013-02-12 19:40:24 <sipa> in theory 65 bytes is enough (2x256 bits for R and S, 1 byte for the hashtype flag)
1125 2013-02-12 19:40:50 <HM> right and the public key if you don't already have it
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1128 2013-02-12 19:40:59 <sipa> of course
1129 2013-02-12 19:41:04 <HM> so scriptsig is about 100 bytes min
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1132 2013-02-12 19:42:49 <jrmithdobbs> does anyone know if there is there anything like leveldb that doesn't handle the disk flushing for you? I want the same basic log structured properties and compaction/etc, but I don't want to back it by a file ...
1133 2013-02-12 19:43:11 <jrmithdobbs> ("use tmpfs" isn't really an option)
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1135 2013-02-12 19:43:23 <kjj> bah. that's what I was going to suggest
1136 2013-02-12 19:43:28 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: leveldb has an in-memory environment
1137 2013-02-12 19:43:37 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1138 2013-02-12 19:43:44 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: I must be missing it in the docs
1139 2013-02-12 19:43:55 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: open looks to require a fs path?
1140 2013-02-12 19:44:00 <sipa> https://code.google.com/p/leveldb/source/browse/helpers/memenv/memenv.h?r=213a68eb68ece93a8915ef18a8eba920d5a924a4
1141 2013-02-12 19:44:12 <sipa> yes, it always uses fs paths
1142 2013-02-12 19:44:24 <sipa> but the in-memory environment constructs its own filesystem view
1143 2013-02-12 19:44:32 <jrmithdobbs> does it do that just for the per-process locking i guess?
1144 2013-02-12 19:44:50 <sipa> ?
1145 2013-02-12 19:45:03 <denisx> jrmithdobbs: you could use memcached
1146 2013-02-12 19:46:07 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: still use an fs path, i mean, even if it's not going to write to disk
1147 2013-02-12 19:46:09 <gmaxwell> sipa: any idea what this guy is talking about here?
1148 2013-02-12 19:46:10 <gmaxwell> 11:24 < subthalamus> gmaxwell: the last transaction in my history no longer has details
1149 2013-02-12 19:46:13 <gmaxwell> 11:25 < subthalamus> no date and just says "pruned transaction outputs"
1150 2013-02-12 19:46:52 Jackneill has joined
1151 2013-02-12 19:47:29 <HM> christ i never realised DER was used
1152 2013-02-12 19:48:12 <sipa> gmaxwell: afaics, the string "pruned" doesn't occur anywhere in our source
1153 2013-02-12 19:48:43 <sipa> HM: it's a pain
1154 2013-02-12 19:48:43 owowo has joined
1155 2013-02-12 19:49:02 <HM> i don't remember seeing it in the code
1156 2013-02-12 19:49:23 <sipa> we have methods with that name in it, but no string constants
1157 2013-02-12 19:50:09 gribble has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1158 2013-02-12 19:51:09 <jrmithdobbs> HM: it's hidden behind the openssl calls and their default behaviour
1159 2013-02-12 19:51:19 <jrmithdobbs> iirc
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1164 2013-02-12 19:51:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: great call
1165 2013-02-12 19:51:58 <HM> ah right
1166 2013-02-12 19:52:03 <HM> thanks jrmithdobbs
1167 2013-02-12 19:52:26 <HM> so is it just the ECDSA sig that is DER encoded
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1169 2013-02-12 19:53:00 <sipa> private keys in unencrypted wallets are also DER encoded, afaik
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1173 2013-02-12 20:00:35 <HM> i think i'm going to have to get me a tablet one day, instead of doodling on paper so much
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1175 2013-02-12 20:01:55 <jrmithdobbs> i thought that and never use the thing
1176 2013-02-12 20:06:21 <HM> lol yeah
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1181 2013-02-12 20:28:22 <andytoshi> anyone here familiar with libcurl? i'm having memory corruption problems
1182 2013-02-12 20:28:36 <andytoshi> i'm running my program in gdb, will post a backtrace when it happens again..
1183 2013-02-12 20:30:34 runeks has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1184 2013-02-12 20:32:10 <andytoshi> http://pastebin.com/9KmLLzR5 if anyone has time to poke around
1185 2013-02-12 20:32:41 b4tt3r135 has joined
1186 2013-02-12 20:33:33 <andytoshi> oh, i think i see it..sorry..
1187 2013-02-12 20:38:21 <andytoshi> sigh, i had "if (write_size > buffer_size) /* double the buffer */"
1188 2013-02-12 20:38:28 <andytoshi> that should have been a while, not an if :}
1189 2013-02-12 20:38:54 <HM> aha
1190 2013-02-12 20:38:59 <HM> CKey::Sign()
1191 2013-02-12 20:39:01 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1192 2013-02-12 20:39:45 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: or change new_buffer_size = ((write_size + buffer_size - 1) / buffer_size) * buffer_size
1193 2013-02-12 20:41:14 <andytoshi> yep, that would've worked too
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1196 2013-02-12 20:49:17 <HM> sipa: just found this https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=6430.0)%3F
1197 2013-02-12 20:49:34 <HM> seems to be what i am after for compact storage
1198 2013-02-12 20:50:22 <sipa> HM: we actually use that for message signing
1199 2013-02-12 20:50:44 <HM> but not tx signing, for backcompat, presumably
1200 2013-02-12 20:50:49 <sipa> indeed
1201 2013-02-12 20:51:01 <sipa> it would need a significant change to the script language
1202 2013-02-12 20:51:09 <HM> hmm why so?
1203 2013-02-12 20:51:37 <sipa> because you can't use an opcode like checksig anymore
1204 2013-02-12 20:52:11 <sipa> you need an opcode which, given a signature, produces the pubkey that the message seems signed with
1205 2013-02-12 20:52:27 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: can you serialize/deserialize the data in these in-memory leveldb envs? I'm missing how in the example code i can find
1206 2013-02-12 20:52:40 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: ?
1207 2013-02-12 20:52:49 <sipa> ah
1208 2013-02-12 20:52:53 <sipa> no, i don't think so
1209 2013-02-12 20:52:58 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: so NewMemEnv() will give me an in-memory leveldb, but i need a way to serialize it to disk :(
1210 2013-02-12 20:53:25 <jrmithdobbs> hrm
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1212 2013-02-12 20:54:12 <HM> sipa: indeed. I guess you could have an opcode that pops the compsig and then pushes back the pubkey and normal sig
1213 2013-02-12 20:54:18 <HM> but that still wouldn't be back compat
1214 2013-02-12 20:54:36 <sipa> indeed
1215 2013-02-12 20:54:41 <moarrr> does anyone know what the NVC currency currently on bte-e is?
1216 2013-02-12 20:55:15 <HM> the code in key.cpp for that recovery also scares me
1217 2013-02-12 20:55:22 * sipa ducks
1218 2013-02-12 20:55:46 mb300sd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1219 2013-02-12 20:55:58 <HM> :P
1220 2013-02-12 20:56:24 <sipa> at the time, it wasn't really intended to end up in bitcoin
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1225 2013-02-12 21:03:11 <gavinandresen> huzzah! bitcoin: links work on OSX!
1226 2013-02-12 21:03:22 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
1227 2013-02-12 21:04:08 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: wd
1228 2013-02-12 21:04:40 <gavinandresen> wumpus gmaxwell : repeatedly clicking on the same (or different) bitcoin: links adds the same (or different) recipients to the Send Coins page. That is either a feature or a bug, I can't decide which....
1229 2013-02-12 21:05:35 <Luke-Jr> feature imo, except for the same part perhaps
1230 2013-02-12 21:06:56 testnode9 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1231 2013-02-12 21:06:58 denisx has joined
1232 2013-02-12 21:07:38 <denisx> my pool found the first block with 0.8 on freebsd
1233 2013-02-12 21:07:47 <denisx> so at least that part works
1234 2013-02-12 21:08:18 <gavinandresen> nice, we're having a good run of good news the last few days....
1235 2013-02-12 21:09:13 <sipa> i found a block (p2pool) with to-be-0.8 code somewhere in september :)
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1240 2013-02-12 21:12:23 <denisx> and since I use 0.8 my pool gets some spikes when there is a new block because it seems to get it faster than other pools
1241 2013-02-12 21:12:42 <denisx> I mean hashrate spikes
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1245 2013-02-12 21:17:53 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: so there memenv doesn't let you serialize, but looking at how it works closer, I can use that functionality to add my own runtime env instance and have leveldb use it, that's pretty nifty
1246 2013-02-12 21:17:58 <jrmithdobbs> s/there/their/
1247 2013-02-12 21:18:33 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: so instead of keeping it in memory and serializing/deserializing in a controlled way I can just override all their file create/delete/read/write hooks
1248 2013-02-12 21:19:03 <jrmithdobbs> same functionality in the end
1249 2013-02-12 21:26:35 <lupine313> can anyone point me to something that details the layout of a wallet.dat file used in bitcoin-qt?
1250 2013-02-12 21:30:38 <Luke-Jr> lupine313: Bitcoin-Qt source code. That's it. and it's probably changing soon.
1251 2013-02-12 21:30:53 <lupine313> do you know how often the file format has changed?
1252 2013-02-12 21:31:23 <Luke-Jr> I think that's covered in the source code too
1253 2013-02-12 21:31:30 <lupine313> haha
1254 2013-02-12 21:31:34 <lupine313> ok
1255 2013-02-12 21:32:14 <Luke-Jr> no, really: it stores a version number and can upgrade or not
1256 2013-02-12 21:34:37 <gavinandresen> lupine313: https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools/blob/master/wallet.py is out-of-date, but shows most of the structure maybe easier to see than c++ code
1257 2013-02-12 21:36:18 <lupine313> thanks gavin
1258 2013-02-12 21:36:20 <lupine313> much obliged
1259 2013-02-12 21:37:07 <lupine313> trying to help someone recover a possible deleted wallet.dat file from a disk
1260 2013-02-12 21:37:45 <lupine313> we've identified several .dat files which fit the berkeley-db file format of a wallet.dat, but no luck using pywallet to export any priv keys
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1270 2013-02-12 21:55:23 <Luke-Jr> lupine313: I seem to recall someone writing a program that searches a hard drive block device for private keys, but not sure where I saw it
1271 2013-02-12 21:56:36 <gavinandresen> lupine313: have you tried -salvagewallet ? That uses the low-level Berkeley db 'read and try to ignore errors' to extract keys
1272 2013-02-12 22:00:24 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's on the forum, it's by makomk.
1273 2013-02-12 22:04:55 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1279 2013-02-12 22:10:12 rbecker has quit (Quit: You care. You're there for me. You love me so much, and I never want to let it go. You are the one truly amazing person. MDR 3/6/11 <3)
1280 2013-02-12 22:10:55 b4tt3r135 has joined
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1282 2013-02-12 22:13:06 starsoccer has joined
1283 2013-02-12 22:13:09 <starsoccer> hey
1284 2013-02-12 22:13:20 <starsoccer> I have a flaw in signing that i have to reeport
1285 2013-02-12 22:13:22 <starsoccer> where would i post it
1286 2013-02-12 22:14:09 <andytoshi> starsoccer: which program told you to report it?
1287 2013-02-12 22:14:29 <starsoccer> no program, its a problem when i sign a message
1288 2013-02-12 22:14:34 TheButterZone has joined
1289 2013-02-12 22:14:37 RBecker has joined
1290 2013-02-12 22:14:50 <starsoccer> the signature can be basically locked to multiple or atleast 2 address
1291 2013-02-12 22:15:08 <sipa> ?
1292 2013-02-12 22:15:14 <andytoshi> with bitcoind?
1293 2013-02-12 22:15:21 <sipa> are you talking about bitcoind/bitcoin-qt message sign feature?
1294 2013-02-12 22:15:22 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1295 2013-02-12 22:15:43 <starsoccer> with qt
1296 2013-02-12 22:15:47 <starsoccer> version .7.2 beta
1297 2013-02-12 22:16:03 <starsoccer> basically i sign an address and I was trying to help someone verify a signature
1298 2013-02-12 22:16:11 <starsoccer> without downloading the client
1299 2013-02-12 22:16:17 <sipa> and what is the problem exactly?
1300 2013-02-12 22:16:24 <starsoccer> and it seems that one signature can be linked to multiple address
1301 2013-02-12 22:16:29 TheButterZone has left ()
1302 2013-02-12 22:16:33 <starsoccer> id assume thats a problem
1303 2013-02-12 22:16:37 <sipa> how so?
1304 2013-02-12 22:16:44 <kjj> are you signing an empty string?
1305 2013-02-12 22:16:48 <starsoccer> no
1306 2013-02-12 22:17:01 <starsoccer> i used this online tool
1307 2013-02-12 22:17:02 <starsoccer> http://brainwallet.org/#verify
1308 2013-02-12 22:17:10 <starsoccer> basically in the message i put test
1309 2013-02-12 22:17:21 <starsoccer> and in the signature i put HFMxyjvZh0UeMomjFW9AtwprHJ2JV3va7A9GdsWDapJnxmNOITxQEZ6aTWDw86DmR9/C8vxM7oYHTtiy4A6L6VU=
1310 2013-02-12 22:17:49 <starsoccer> but if i go and change the message I can change what address it is verifed to
1311 2013-02-12 22:17:57 <kjj> oh. heh
1312 2013-02-12 22:17:57 <gmaxwell> sure
1313 2013-02-12 22:18:05 <sipa> that's perfectly expected
1314 2013-02-12 22:18:13 <starsoccer> that doesnt quite seem right tho
1315 2013-02-12 22:18:16 <gmaxwell> thats how it worksâ and it's why tools should force you to enter the expected address.
1316 2013-02-12 22:18:25 <sipa> you should verify that the address is what you expect
1317 2013-02-12 22:18:44 <starsoccer> well that means just saying, in theory i could make gmaxwell using his btc address have a signed statement saying he owes me 100btc
1318 2013-02-12 22:18:46 <starsoccer> even tho he doesn
1319 2013-02-12 22:18:48 <starsoccer> doesnt
1320 2013-02-12 22:19:05 <kjj> no you can't
1321 2013-02-12 22:19:59 <starsoccer> yea i could tho, basically by brute forceing
1322 2013-02-12 22:20:06 <starsoccer> i would set the message
1323 2013-02-12 22:20:15 <sipa> that's exactly as hard as cracking the signing algorithm itself
1324 2013-02-12 22:20:52 <starsoccer> that doesnt quite exactly seem right to me
1325 2013-02-12 22:21:32 <starsoccer> also tho
1326 2013-02-12 22:21:36 <starsoccer> using that online tool
1327 2013-02-12 22:21:47 <sipa> well, it is
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1329 2013-02-12 22:22:00 <sipa> the signature uses a technique called key recovery
1330 2013-02-12 22:22:20 <sipa> where the public key that would have been used to create the signature is computed from the message and the signature
1331 2013-02-12 22:22:26 <starsoccer> I linked one message with the same signature to multiple address
1332 2013-02-12 22:23:18 <sipa> you can end up with any address from a given signature
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1334 2013-02-12 22:23:33 <sipa> but you can't control which address that will be without trying
1335 2013-02-12 22:23:44 <sipa> so you need to brute-force 160 bits of addresses
1336 2013-02-12 22:24:17 <starsoccer> no, i have one signature and one message verifed to mutliple or 2 addresses
1337 2013-02-12 22:24:19 <starsoccer> is that right
1338 2013-02-12 22:24:31 <sipa> not the same signature/message combination
1339 2013-02-12 22:24:39 <sipa> as that would result in the same address as well
1340 2013-02-12 22:25:23 <starsoccer> it doesnt tho
1341 2013-02-12 22:25:44 <sipa> give me an example
1342 2013-02-12 22:26:10 <starsoccer> actully nvm the online tool is messed up the online tool says its verifed but bitcoin-qt says it isnt
1343 2013-02-12 22:26:13 <starsoccer> so nvm
1344 2013-02-12 22:26:34 <sipa> that would be a bug in brainwallet.org then
1345 2013-02-12 22:26:43 <sipa> can you tell me which signature/message combination?
1346 2013-02-12 22:27:01 <starsoccer> well the message is quite long
1347 2013-02-12 22:27:11 <starsoccer> ill ibitbin it for you
1348 2013-02-12 22:27:12 <starsoccer> one sec
1349 2013-02-12 22:27:12 <sipa> can you reproduce with a shorter one?
1350 2013-02-12 22:27:23 <starsoccer> idk
1351 2013-02-12 22:27:28 <starsoccer> didnt try it i can tho
1352 2013-02-12 22:27:30 <starsoccer> give me a sec
1353 2013-02-12 22:27:58 <starsoccer> nope, seems online with a long one
1354 2013-02-12 22:29:12 <gmaxwell> UGH. avalon email.
1355 2013-02-12 22:29:17 <sipa> ?
1356 2013-02-12 22:29:34 <starsoccer> was that message to me?
1357 2013-02-12 22:29:34 <gmaxwell> Yelling at people for undermining their effort to assume they can just 'refund' to the prior to address.
1358 2013-02-12 22:30:17 <sipa> bah
1359 2013-02-12 22:30:20 <gmaxwell> http://pastebin.com/dmpnqeiv
1360 2013-02-12 22:31:48 <andytoshi> "this defeats the purpose of bitcoin" ??
1361 2013-02-12 22:31:57 <andytoshi> to sign transactions with keys?
1362 2013-02-12 22:32:08 * sipa repeats: we shouldn't call key id's "addresses"
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1366 2013-02-12 22:33:20 <andytoshi> sipa: i described bitcoin without using the word "address" here: http://download.wpsoftware.net/libertarian-letter-bitcoin
1367 2013-02-12 22:33:28 <andytoshi> under "Technical Aspects" heading
1368 2013-02-12 22:33:39 <andytoshi> but it seems too technical to talk to normal people this way :(
1369 2013-02-12 22:34:02 <HM> sipa: "magnets"?
1370 2013-02-12 22:34:14 <sipa> i'd just call them keyid's :)
1371 2013-02-12 22:34:28 <sipa> they become an address only if someone wants coins sent to them
1372 2013-02-12 22:34:40 <HM> keyid sounds lame
1373 2013-02-12 22:36:32 Mobius_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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1375 2013-02-12 22:37:35 <HM> sipa: what are your thoughts on namecoin?
1376 2013-02-12 22:38:24 <HM> maybe you could call them cashtags :P
1377 2013-02-12 22:38:48 <sipa> HM: a very interesting problem, and the wrong solution to it :)
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1379 2013-02-12 22:41:29 <HM> You could figure out which internet celebrity is begging for the most money by looking at hex #cashtags on Twitter :D
1380 2013-02-12 22:41:52 <andytoshi> for those who didn't follow my link, i described bitcoin transactions as "signing spending authority over to the owner of another signing key"
1381 2013-02-12 22:42:41 <andytoshi> which makes it much clearer how weird-style transactions can happen, but much less clear how ordinary money exchanges happen
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1384 2013-02-12 22:45:39 <HM> andytoshi: it's well written
1385 2013-02-12 22:46:31 <andytoshi> HM: thanks, but i said "i'm happy to chat about this is person", so i haven't sent it yet because i'm too busy :P
1386 2013-02-12 22:47:37 <HM> lol
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1400 2013-02-12 23:12:04 <D34TH> sipa: question if the tidy script runs, doesn't that remove the files bitcoind is hardlinking if you are using them causing redownload of chain
1401 2013-02-12 23:12:23 <sipa> D34TH: do you know how hardlinks work?
1402 2013-02-12 23:12:36 <D34TH> i have an idea
1403 2013-02-12 23:12:45 <sipa> probably a wrong one :P
1404 2013-02-12 23:12:53 <D34TH> im going to go with yes
1405 2013-02-12 23:13:13 <sipa> a hardlink is basically a new reference in the file system tree to the same inode
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1407 2013-02-12 23:13:28 <sipa> so the old and new "file" are indistinguishable
1408 2013-02-12 23:13:42 <sipa> it's not that the new file points to the old, or the other way around
1409 2013-02-12 23:14:08 <sipa> it just increments the refcount of the inode, and creates a new name for it
1410 2013-02-12 23:14:22 <D34TH> ahh
1411 2013-02-12 23:15:04 <D34TH> when i saw the commit i was like, maybe i should ask because i dont have the full idea
1412 2013-02-12 23:15:14 <D34TH> now i am educated, thanks sipa!
1413 2013-02-12 23:15:15 <sipa> yw :)
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1417 2013-02-12 23:19:53 <HM> sipa is a good educator
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