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   5 2013-02-16 00:10:41 <Luke-Jr> bitmarco: I'm no fanboy; there are many ways Linux (and GNU) sucks, but still..
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   7 2013-02-16 00:13:20 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Apparently Linux (really GLIBC) sucks because it made its rand() unusually good, and as a result we got away with non-portable code. :P
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  10 2013-02-16 00:18:14 <midnightmagic> ..!
  11 2013-02-16 00:18:49 <gmaxwell> hm?
  12 2013-02-16 00:19:02 <midnightmagic> Where's the use of srand?
  13 2013-02-16 00:19:17 <gmaxwell> There isn't one, and doesn't need to be one.
  14 2013-02-16 00:19:40 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: would be nice if glibc were more standards-only and gnulib were available as a shared object
  15 2013-02-16 00:20:13 <gmaxwell> And use of srand would not have mattered for the case being discussed. :P
  16 2013-02-16 00:28:35 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: This is a subset-finding issue on platforms that don't have Linux' rand(), correct? wallet.cpp:986 ?
  17 2013-02-16 00:32:02 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: the particular degenerate behavior would happen on anything using one of the common LCG implementations of rand(). Persumably there could even be linux systems meeting this description (e.g. libc5 ones).
  18 2013-02-16 00:33:33 <andytoshi> could be newlib or whatever android uses as well
  19 2013-02-16 00:33:42 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Deterministic subset-finding it doesn't seem to me would be much of an issue.
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  21 2013-02-16 00:34:24 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: I'm not sure I understand?
  22 2013-02-16 00:34:24 <andytoshi> midnightmagic: naively, it would be exponential complexity
  23 2013-02-16 00:35:28 <andytoshi> midnightmagic: this is (almost) the classic optimization "knapsack problem"
  24 2013-02-16 00:36:02 <gmaxwell> (I mean I don't understand if you're saying you don't know why there would have been an issue in the first place (which is what andy seems to have read); or if you were agreeing with my suggestion to just use a constant random sequence.)
  25 2013-02-16 00:36:50 <midnightmagic> I'm saying it seems to me it wouldn't matter if rand() were returning random numbers, or just numbers. Like who cares if it's random or not for that specific function?
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  27 2013-02-16 00:37:41 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: ha. Somehow you failed to clarify things for me!
  28 2013-02-16 00:37:50 <gmaxwell> I still don't know which of those two things you're talking about.
  29 2013-02-16 00:38:10 <andytoshi> midnightmagic: the optimization process searches a small subset of the space, and needs a random nudge to keep moving
  30 2013-02-16 00:38:27 <andytoshi> and these are binary nudges, 0 or 1...
  31 2013-02-16 00:38:51 <andytoshi> and our bad RNG would alternate these, so for an even number of inputs it wouldn't accomplish anything new with each pass
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  34 2013-02-16 00:39:25 <midnightmagic> I understand that BSD rand() is weird and shitty, and Linux' isn't. From my reading of the function, who cares if it's properly random or not? It doesn't seem to me to be a security or even an algorithmic *flaw* such that I, for example, magically give up the fact I'm running on BSD or I am part of a subset of BSD-using people.
  35 2013-02-16 00:40:23 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Not the first one. I am agreeing with your second statement.  Yes, right.
  36 2013-02-16 00:40:26 <midnightmagic> aaargh lagged
  37 2013-02-16 00:40:44 <andytoshi> np, i've been having 30-60 second drops all day..
  38 2013-02-16 00:41:06 <gmaxwell> yea, it doesn't matter. So long as it's not so simplistic that the algorithim gets stuck.
  39 2013-02-16 00:42:06 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: luke and sipa's point was that if it's totally determinstic that it does potentially leak more data about the composition of coins in your wallet.
  40 2013-02-16 00:42:43 <midnightmagic> hrm..
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  42 2013-02-16 00:43:21 <gmaxwell> though it's sort of an insane corner case— most of the time the result doesn't depend on the random sequence at all.
  43 2013-02-16 00:43:32 <gmaxwell> (or at least with unique values it doesn't)
  44 2013-02-16 00:44:04 <andytoshi> sipa mentioned a "refactor/rewrite by dooglus", before which he thought the inputs had been randomly ordered
  45 2013-02-16 00:44:10 <andytoshi> was the algorithm deterministic then?
  46 2013-02-16 00:44:36 <gmaxwell> IIRC it called the openssl rand then.
  47 2013-02-16 00:45:21 <gavinandresen> can I get a quick ACK or two on:  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2311
  48 2013-02-16 00:45:33 <midnightmagic> I guess in the odd case where I'm confounded with a Linux-user then, the subselect if it did come down to the rand() being predictable might be another line between me and the other confounding identity..
  49 2013-02-16 00:46:50 <midnightmagic> I'm pretty sure the fact I use raw transactions everywhere is already doing a good job of giving me away though..
  50 2013-02-16 00:47:34 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Kind of a neat problem, thanks.
  51 2013-02-16 00:47:53 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I'll test it here.. 1 sec
  52 2013-02-16 00:47:55 <andytoshi> i thought it was really cool
  53 2013-02-16 00:48:17 <dhill> uname -a
  54 2013-02-16 00:48:31 <dhill> oops
  55 2013-02-16 00:48:34 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: say you produce two transactions one after another. The first uses inputs q,w,e,r,t the second uses inputs a,s,d  then there is a third third transaction which uses z,x,c  with a deterministic algorithm I can say that z,x,c is not you because if z,x,c had been in your wallet you would have used its inputs in an earlier transaction.
  56 2013-02-16 00:49:06 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: RE: rand() replacement:  ACK on the algorithm, although I think the code should be in an insecure_rand() method in util.h, so it is slightly less likely new code that needs a fast rand() won't just use rand() and bring back a similar bug
  57 2013-02-16 00:49:16 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: db/builder.cc:5:24: fatal error: db/builder.h: No such file or directory
  58 2013-02-16 00:49:28 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yea, I wasn't sure there. Mostly fine either way.
  59 2013-02-16 00:49:48 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: can you pastebin your make?
  60 2013-02-16 00:50:23 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Hence the line between me and the Linux-user. So I guess in the worst case it does help collapse identities. Really neat portability problem. Windows is also secure-ish?
  61 2013-02-16 00:50:42 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: that's building bitcoind without Bitcoin-Qt
  62 2013-02-16 00:50:43 <Luke-Jr> make -f makefile.unix BDB_INCLUDE_PATH=/usr/include/db4.8/ CXXFLAGS="-O0" DEBUGFLAGS='-ggdb' USE_DBUS=1 USE_QRCODE=1 USE_SSL=1 LDFLAGS="" USE_IPV6=1 USE_UPNP=- -j4 bitcoind test_bitcoin
  63 2013-02-16 00:51:21 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: if I build Bitcoin-Qt first, it works since bitcoind reuses leveldb.a
  64 2013-02-16 00:51:33 <midnightmagic> dhill: NetBSD ra 5.1.2_PATCH NetBSD 5.1.2_PATCH (ra-new) #1: Mon Dec 20 20:28:06 PST 2012  root@build:/usr/src/sys/arch/i386/compile/ra-new i386  :-)
  65 2013-02-16 00:52:34 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I think you need to tell leveldb's makefile to ignore environment CXXFLAGS
  66 2013-02-16 00:52:47 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: uh. What a great! question.
  67 2013-02-16 00:53:11 <Luke-Jr> (I'm not sure quite how to do that..)
  68 2013-02-16 00:53:19 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: … or you need to set your CXXFLAGS to include the leveldb -I's
  69 2013-02-16 00:53:27 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: get this: rand() and mingw32 here: 41 18467 6334 26500 19169 15724 11478 29358 26962 24464
  70 2013-02-16 00:53:38 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: so— this means that windows is broken too!
  71 2013-02-16 00:53:44 * gmaxwell facepalm
  72 2013-02-16 00:53:45 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Awesome.
  73 2013-02-16 00:53:52 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: that's not a reasonable expectation; users shouldn't need to know how the build works internally
  74 2013-02-16 00:54:58 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: I really don't like the edit-every-other-line-of-somebody's-upstream-Makefile solution, that's fragile
  75 2013-02-16 00:55:00 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: so now I want to know why no one has run test_bitcoin on windows.
  76 2013-02-16 00:55:25 <andytoshi> i bet test_bitcoin would've still worked, the ones' bit doesn't alternate
  77 2013-02-16 00:55:29 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: yeah, I agree.
  78 2013-02-16 00:56:18 <gavinandresen> … could do:  unset CFLAGS CXXFLAGS && $(MAKE) …etc….
  79 2013-02-16 00:56:19 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: apparently I'm being a bit blond today, I only looked at the first three values. :)
  80 2013-02-16 00:57:10 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: or OS/X..  :-/ yikes. Pretty cool how the test suite just proved itself again though.
  81 2013-02-16 00:57:30 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: it's apparently fine on OSX.
  82 2013-02-16 00:57:48 <midnightmagic> that's surprising.
  83 2013-02-16 00:57:53 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: hmm, that should work, but doesn't seem to. I'll dig around more
  84 2013-02-16 00:58:17 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: having said that, having a 32K range is pretty bad
  85 2013-02-16 00:59:19 <andytoshi> midnightmagic: yeah, i was impressed that we found a RNG problem with a test suite
  86 2013-02-16 01:01:00 <gavinandresen> speaking of which, util_tests.cpp should test the openssl-based GetRand() methods for some level of sanity.
  87 2013-02-16 01:02:07 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: make is sneaking them in via MAKEFLAGS env :/
  88 2013-02-16 01:04:36 <gavinandresen> So… for now I think we should recommend using DEBUGFLAGS instead of CXXFLAGS to build.  After 0.8 I think we should have a make-the-makfiles-sane-again party.
  89 2013-02-16 01:04:54 <gavinandresen> Or maybe the configure project will get done....
  90 2013-02-16 01:05:50 <jaakkos> whose branch (block) is preferred if two blocks are generated at the same height?
  91 2013-02-16 01:05:59 <gavinandresen> mine
  92 2013-02-16 01:06:10 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: the first you heard.
  93 2013-02-16 01:06:23 <gmaxwell> "you only switch to a longer chain"
  94 2013-02-16 01:06:29 <Luke-Jr> lol
  95 2013-02-16 01:06:31 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: ok, why not smallest hash?
  96 2013-02-16 01:06:42 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: because that would hurt convergence.
  97 2013-02-16 01:06:59 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: MAKEOVERRIDES='' $(MAKE) … <-- works
  98 2013-02-16 01:07:07 <gavinandresen> smallest hash would give miners an incentive to keep mining on the older block
  99 2013-02-16 01:07:10 <Luke-Jr> I think, build almost finished but usually it errors sooner
 100 2013-02-16 01:07:26 HM has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 101 2013-02-16 01:07:39 * gavinandresen wonders what the heck is MAKEOVERRIDES, goes to look….
 102 2013-02-16 01:08:04 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: hmm, makes sense
 103 2013-02-16 01:08:48 <Luke-Jr> yep, build finished
 104 2013-02-16 01:08:52 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: ah, great, MAKEOVERRIDES is exaclty what we want
 105 2013-02-16 01:09:25 <Luke-Jr> hrm
 106 2013-02-16 01:09:31 <Luke-Jr> clean and retry fails now
 107 2013-02-16 01:09:33 HM has joined
 108 2013-02-16 01:09:34 * Luke-Jr scratches head
 109 2013-02-16 01:10:23 <Luke-Jr> oh, I guess it can't be part of the command itself
 110 2013-02-16 01:10:45 <Luke-Jr> http://codepad.org/FI4mj6mX
 111 2013-02-16 01:12:01 <Luke-Jr> not sure we want to be passing all xCXXFLAGS down (like -DUSE_UPNP=*), but it doesn't seem to hurt
 112 2013-02-16 01:12:37 <Luke-Jr> re makefile party, hopefully CodeShark's automake stuff will make that easier ;)
 113 2013-02-16 01:13:39 <andytoshi> i bet CodeShark has thrown his computer out by now
 114 2013-02-16 01:13:48 <Luke-Jr> >_<
 115 2013-02-16 01:13:52 <CodeShark> lol
 116 2013-02-16 01:14:15 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: pushed MAKEOVERIDES fix to
 117 2013-02-16 01:14:25 <gavinandresen> … to the pull request
 118 2013-02-16 01:14:51 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: retesting
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 121 2013-02-16 01:17:46 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind-only build success
 122 2013-02-16 01:20:26 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin-qt-only build success
 123 2013-02-16 01:21:08 <gavinandresen> cool.  You don't want to know how long it took me to figure out the correct escaping for  OPT=\"$$QMAKE_CXXFLAGS\" in the bitcoin-qt.pro file…. (sigh)
 124 2013-02-16 01:21:18 <Luke-Jr> >_<
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 133 2013-02-16 01:35:37 <dhill> now i just gotta figure out this last crash
 134 2013-02-16 01:35:54 <dhill> tried boost 1.42.0 and 1.52.0 .. and db4 4.6.21 and 4.8.30
 135 2013-02-16 01:36:04 <Luke-Jr> …
 136 2013-02-16 01:36:05 <dhill> always in DB::get
 137 2013-02-16 01:36:10 <andytoshi> do you have valgrind? does it say anything interesting?
 138 2013-02-16 01:36:20 <dhill> no valgrind
 139 2013-02-16 01:36:20 <andytoshi> i think the opinion here is that this is DB4's fault..
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 141 2013-02-16 01:36:50 <dhill> db4 uses shared memory by default?  unless you use DB_PRIVATE?
 142 2013-02-16 01:38:01 <dhill> #9  0x1c04f6a3 in CDB::Read<std::pair<std::string, uint256>, CTxIndex> (this=0xcfbb45bc, key=@0xcfbb3e44, value=@0xcfbb3f78) at db.h:129
 143 2013-02-16 01:38:19 <dhill> #8  0x0bfebced in Db::get () at optional.hpp:479
 144 2013-02-16 01:38:28 <dhill> hrm
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 156 2013-02-16 02:27:46 <dhill> so, db_dump shows some interesting issues
 157 2013-02-16 02:29:41 <dhill> http://gbpaste.org/1grmH
 158 2013-02-16 02:29:50 <dhill> does that look normal for a db_dump of blkindex.dat ?
 159 2013-02-16 02:29:59 <dhill> that first part of it at least
 160 2013-02-16 02:30:13 <dhill> that huge entry near the bottom..  normal?
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 162 2013-02-16 02:34:43 <dhill> don't use boost serialization?
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 164 2013-02-16 02:38:41 <andytoshi> dhill: fwiw, bitcoind 0.8 moves away from db4 for blockchain stuff
 165 2013-02-16 02:38:48 <andytoshi> it's still used for the wallet, so maybe you are still screwed tho
 166 2013-02-16 02:40:56 <dhill> what does 0.8 use?
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 171 2013-02-16 02:43:51 <andytoshi> leveldb
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 176 2013-02-16 02:50:11 <dhill> #8  0x0bfebced in Db::get () at optional.hpp:479
 177 2013-02-16 02:50:11 <dhill> 479         void destroy_impl ( is_not_reference_tag ) { get_ptr_impl()->T::~T() ; m_initialized = false ; }
 178 2013-02-16 02:50:11 <gmaxwell> dhill: which is internal, not an external dependency.
 179 2013-02-16 02:52:23 <dhill> http://gbpaste.org/tWiJ9
 180 2013-02-16 02:52:49 <dhill> anything stick out as being not right?
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 183 2013-02-16 02:55:50 <dhill> or would any other gdb commands help?
 184 2013-02-16 02:57:13 <andytoshi> dhill: you really need to get a memory checker, otherwise we're stuck because we're not familiar with libbdb
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 237 2013-02-16 05:37:51 <Luke-Jr> LOL @ Avalon's source release
 238 2013-02-16 05:38:23 <SomeoneWeird> Luke-Jr, link?
 239 2013-02-16 05:38:34 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: don't bother, it's the unmodified cgminer 2.10.5 code
 240 2013-02-16 05:38:39 <SomeoneWeird> LOL
 241 2013-02-16 05:38:44 <SomeoneWeird> ha
 242 2013-02-16 05:39:59 <Luke-Jr> now it's looking like they really DON'T intend to release code after all
 243 2013-02-16 05:42:24 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you sure they didn't just make a mistake? like— e.g. pushing the wrong branch?
 244 2013-02-16 05:42:41 <gmaxwell> after all— if they were planning on just releasing the unmodified stuff, they'd have done that right off the front.
 245 2013-02-16 05:42:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: possible, but the format of https://github.com/BitSyncom/avalon-extras/tree/master/scripts suggests otherwise
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 247 2013-02-16 05:43:50 <Luke-Jr> build-openwrt-cgminer.sh specifically
 248 2013-02-16 05:47:16 <denisx> how many avalons are out there?
 249 2013-02-16 05:47:36 <gmaxwell> 2
 250 2013-02-16 05:48:06 <Luke-Jr> nm, I fail
 251 2013-02-16 05:48:15 <SomeoneWeird> lol
 252 2013-02-16 05:48:15 <Luke-Jr> looks like there's another (non-default) branch in the repo
 253 2013-02-16 05:48:25 <SomeoneWeird> ahh, yeah
 254 2013-02-16 05:49:50 <Luke-Jr> they should have omitted the avalon branch just to freak out Kano <.<
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 262 2013-02-16 06:22:51 <SomeoneWeird> lols
 263 2013-02-16 06:39:56 <muhoo> maybe they didn't modify the source
 264 2013-02-16 06:40:25 <muhoo> and they ust made the ASIC look to the code as if it were just a GPU, copy the interface
 265 2013-02-16 06:43:58 <muhoo> unlikely but possible.
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 268 2013-02-16 06:47:46 <gmaxwell> muhoo: you missed luke saying he just missed the branch
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 271 2013-02-16 07:17:10 <muhoo> ok, thanks
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 273 2013-02-16 07:39:28 <geekmod> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144481.0
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 276 2013-02-16 07:48:42 <gmaxwell> geekmod: is that post by you?
 277 2013-02-16 07:48:51 <gmaxwell> it seems rather timecubic.
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 279 2013-02-16 07:50:10 <petertodd> so many words, so little meaning
 280 2013-02-16 07:50:40 <petertodd> "ensure the ID's would be unique, except very rare exceptions like two people living in the same body" <- the best part
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 283 2013-02-16 07:55:58 <gmaxwell> petertodd: some of the stuff on the forum is just boggling.
 284 2013-02-16 07:56:07 <gmaxwell> petertodd: but you can't beat it— so why not join it? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=57253.msg682056#msg682056
 285 2013-02-16 07:58:49 <petertodd> gmaxwell: videos always help make an argument: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxfAjAyp5k
 286 2013-02-16 07:59:19 <gmaxwell> Such a great video.
 287 2013-02-16 07:59:47 <petertodd> he's a brilliant actor for the role
 288 2013-02-16 08:00:43 <gmaxwell> Thats really the fundimental skill of sales: being able to speak clearly and convincingly about pure gibberish that you have no clue about.
 289 2013-02-16 08:02:04 * Luke-Jr wonders how DINR is better than a hash of latitude and longitude O.o
 290 2013-02-16 08:02:06 <petertodd> You're approach is how amateurs do it; true professionals believe in what they're talking about.
 291 2013-02-16 08:02:50 <gmaxwell> Unfortunately belief is a bit at odds with _pure_ gibberish.
 292 2013-02-16 08:04:29 <petertodd> After the six years of intense professional training I went through, you could confidently believe in anything.
 293 2013-02-16 08:04:34 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 294 2013-02-16 08:05:05 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: hmm, cute; kano noticed the git commit dates are all after Avalon claims they shipped ;)
 295 2013-02-16 08:05:42 <petertodd> Ha, brilliant.
 296 2013-02-16 08:05:48 <petertodd> How much after?
 297 2013-02-16 08:06:36 <Luke-Jr> I think the latest was Feb 2
 298 2013-02-16 08:06:43 <Luke-Jr> but always possible changes were made after shipping for real
 299 2013-02-16 08:07:09 <gmaxwell> sure. well later commits were stuff like the fan control, which jeff had reported problems with.
 300 2013-02-16 08:07:17 <petertodd> gmaxwell: http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/decon.html <- this essay seriously influenced my second year at art school.
 301 2013-02-16 08:07:47 <petertodd> I can easily see them getting sloppy too and forgetting to actually commit their changes in the rush.
 302 2013-02-16 08:10:21 <Luke-Jr> maybe ;)
 303 2013-02-16 08:10:35 <gmaxwell> petertodd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXW0bx_Ooq4 < ohh, the latter half of this is a troubleshooting video, involving a digital scan tool.
 304 2013-02-16 08:11:03 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: if you hung out with hardware people more, you'd fine that easier to believe. :P
 305 2013-02-16 08:11:23 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: maybe, if I had any reason to believe the software had anything to do with hardware people
 306 2013-02-16 08:11:42 <Luke-Jr> but it was all written and committed by xiangfu, who's been chilling in #cgminer quite a bit for chat
 307 2013-02-16 08:11:51 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: How many people work at Avalon?
 308 2013-02-16 08:11:53 <gmaxwell> "You will be directed to perform a series of tests that will effectively raise the billiable hours for the service department… but will perform no other useful function"
 309 2013-02-16 08:12:06 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: dunno, but afaik xiangfu is a contractor for the software
 310 2013-02-16 08:12:31 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Ah, may be wrong.
 311 2013-02-16 08:12:59 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: So the avalon guys are mainly hardware then 'eh? It's like, one kid basically right?
 312 2013-02-16 08:14:13 <petertodd> gmaxwell: The sad thing is that diagnostic is still more realistic than any I've seen in Star Trek...
 313 2013-02-16 08:14:21 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I don't know how many guys are behind Avalon
 314 2013-02-16 08:14:32 <gmaxwell> "At least two people"
 315 2013-02-16 08:15:12 <muhoo> maybe the software guy has got the best english, so he's the one we hear from
 316 2013-02-16 08:15:29 <petertodd> Reasonable theory...
 317 2013-02-16 08:15:56 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: BitSyncom isn't the software guy ;)
 318 2013-02-16 08:16:24 <muhoo> gmaxwell: lol "oedipal collision with the motherbase-prime"
 319 2013-02-16 08:17:36 <gmaxwell> muhoo: 'motherbase' is what forced me to reply to that thread.
 320 2013-02-16 08:17:48 <muhoo> "If you have read this far, you must pay Emergency Butthurt Internet Tax."  oh gawd, this whole thread is filled with in
 321 2013-02-16 08:17:51 <muhoo> win
 322 2013-02-16 08:19:33 <gmaxwell> oh, my IEEE link died, darn.
 323 2013-02-16 08:20:08 <gmaxwell> IIRC it was a link to "Debugging using resublimated thiotimoline"
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 325 2013-02-16 08:20:47 <petertodd> Ha! I love the backstory how Asimov came up with thiotimoline too.
 326 2013-02-16 08:21:35 <gmaxwell> Have you read his biography?
 327 2013-02-16 08:21:46 <gmaxwell> (that story is in the biography)
 328 2013-02-16 08:22:12 <petertodd> Er... I kinda have a habit of reading wikipedia/tvtropes.com rather than primary sources.
 329 2013-02-16 08:23:07 <gmaxwell> Well, I recommend Asimov's biography. It's pretty enjoyable.. also, pretty freeking insane how much money he was making (eventually). Being prolific pays.
 330 2013-02-16 08:24:11 <petertodd> I'll add it to my todo list, right after I finish trustbits... :P
 331 2013-02-16 08:24:27 <petertodd> I need to read more of his work too... haven't since I was a kid.
 332 2013-02-16 08:50:21 <Luke-Jr> +                       for (i = 0; i < avalon_get_work_count; i++) {
 333 2013-02-16 08:50:23 <Luke-Jr> +                               pool_stats = &(work[i]->pool->cgminer_stats);
 334 2013-02-16 08:50:24 <Luke-Jr> lol
 335 2013-02-16 08:50:52 <Luke-Jr> this is kinda hard to read >_<
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 381 2013-02-16 11:53:01 HollyRain has joined
 382 2013-02-16 11:57:03 <HollyRain> hi! does anybody has thinked in using Go instead of C++? The main advantage is that using the same code soruce will compile in the main architectures (i386, amd64, arm) and systems (linux, mac os, windows, freebsd, netbsd, openbsd)
 383 2013-02-16 11:57:37 <sipa> and require rewriting from scratch
 384 2013-02-16 11:57:44 <HollyRain> In addition, the standard library has a great crypto lib.: http://golang.org/pkg/
 385 2013-02-16 11:58:42 <SomeoneWeird> HollyRain, if you want to port bitcoin to go, go ahead
 386 2013-02-16 11:58:43 <Scrat> the same code? not in the slightest
 387 2013-02-16 11:58:50 <Scrat> as sipa said complete rewrite
 388 2013-02-16 11:59:22 TD has joined
 389 2013-02-16 11:59:25 <moarrr> The great satoshi wrote the client in C++ for a reason
 390 2013-02-16 11:59:48 <HollyRain> sipa, of course, but the positive side is that Go is very productive and you will forget about typical bugs of languages C/C++
 391 2013-02-16 11:59:55 <Luke-Jr> HollyRain: C++ already compilers for more architectures and main systems
 392 2013-02-16 12:00:21 <HollyRain> Luke-Jr, you have to use different libraries in all those systems
 393 2013-02-16 12:00:36 <Luke-Jr> HollyRain: no, we use the same libraries
 394 2013-02-16 12:00:48 <doublec> HollyRain: I'm sure writing a client in Go would be a great exercise, but rewriting the entire reference client is a big effort
 395 2013-02-16 12:01:29 <Scrat> there's also a substantial problem
 396 2013-02-16 12:01:35 <Eliel_> Yep, there's a nearly complete rewrite already done in Haskell.
 397 2013-02-16 12:01:36 <Scrat> there are no Qt bindings for Go
 398 2013-02-16 12:01:37 <moarrr> does your "Go" system have a printf function?
 399 2013-02-16 12:01:59 <Eliel_> however, getting the small details right proved quite challenging I hear.
 400 2013-02-16 12:02:21 <HollyRain> moarrr, http://golang.org/pkg/fmt/
 401 2013-02-16 12:02:22 <doublec> has Go fixed the issues they were having on 32bit linux platforms (GC/Memory related?)
 402 2013-02-16 12:02:40 <HollyRain> doublec, sure
 403 2013-02-16 12:02:47 <Scrat> doublec: fixed in 1.1
 404 2013-02-16 12:03:06 * Luke-Jr is glad he doesn't need any software written in Go <.<
 405 2013-02-16 12:04:03 <doublec> Scrat: nice, thanks
 406 2013-02-16 12:04:05 <moarrr> nice
 407 2013-02-16 12:05:17 <Scrat> (1.1 isnt out yet :p)
 408 2013-02-16 12:05:51 <sipa> HollyRain: the easiest language is always the one you already know
 409 2013-02-16 12:06:14 <doublec> Scrat: I thought everyone used unrleased trunk versions of programming languages these days ;)
 410 2013-02-16 12:06:18 <sipa> HollyRain: not arguing against Go as a language itself, though
 411 2013-02-16 12:06:34 <HollyRain> Scrat, you can use tip by now, anyway version 1.1 will be out very soon
 412 2013-02-16 12:06:36 <Scrat> doublec: I don't even think it's fixed in trunk, just planned for 1.1
 413 2013-02-16 12:06:54 <sipa> HollyRain: just saying that changing languages is just about the same thing as starting over from scratch entirely, which i don't think will happen, regardless of the language
 414 2013-02-16 12:09:32 <HollyRain> I only say that Go is highly productive, with a great standard library (included crypto and networking stuff), and without bugs related to overflow
 415 2013-02-16 12:10:04 <HollyRain> in addition, it's a simple language which has attracted to many developers from java, python and ruby world
 416 2013-02-16 12:10:46 <sipa> i'm well aware of Go :)
 417 2013-02-16 12:10:47 <HollyRain> so you would have more developers helping in the core using a simpler language
 418 2013-02-16 12:10:55 <Scrat> sure, but your initial premise of just throwing in C++ code into the go compiler is completely false. it will not only require a rewrite but also an architectural change
 419 2013-02-16 12:11:02 <Scrat> go has its own way of doing stuff
 420 2013-02-16 12:11:14 <Luke-Jr> HollyRain: and when there's a bug, debugging it near impossible? ;)
 421 2013-02-16 12:11:50 <doublec> HollyRain: asking the core developers to move to Go would basically halt development for 6 months while it's rewritten
 422 2013-02-16 12:11:53 <HollyRain> Luke-Jr, you only have to worry about coding in Go
 423 2013-02-16 12:11:57 <doublec> HollyRain: better for a Go fan like yourself to start it
 424 2013-02-16 12:12:05 <doublec> HollyRain: and attract developers
 425 2013-02-16 12:12:05 <Luke-Jr> HollyRain: mmhmm, sure
 426 2013-02-16 12:12:18 <Luke-Jr> HollyRain: all code has bugs, no matter what you do to it
 427 2013-02-16 12:13:18 <HollyRain> Luke-Jr, but Go is free of bugs related to memory, and the another bugs are very simple to find them
 428 2013-02-16 12:13:33 <Luke-Jr> HollyRain: I doubt it.
 429 2013-02-16 12:13:34 * Scrat shudders te the thought of converting boost code to go
 430 2013-02-16 12:13:41 <Scrat> *at
 431 2013-02-16 12:15:26 <Scrat> a GC language will always have bugs related to memory
 432 2013-02-16 12:15:51 <Scrat> and to add to that, go has a stop-the-world GC
 433 2013-02-16 12:16:16 * Luke-Jr weakly holds that memory bugs are impossible to prevent too
 434 2013-02-16 12:17:07 <doublec> HollyRain: how is Go free of memory bugs?
 435 2013-02-16 12:17:20 <doublec> HollyRain: it still has null pointers doesn't it?
 436 2013-02-16 12:17:30 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 437 2013-02-16 12:17:39 <doublec> HollyRain: and any call out to a C FFI could result in memory issues
 438 2013-02-16 12:17:51 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 439 2013-02-16 12:17:56 <doublec> HollyRain: there's also the issue of memory leaks by holding onto references which the GC doesn't reclaim
 440 2013-02-16 12:18:00 <upb> your statements are false, the hipster type guys with thick glasses and macbooks who held a lecture about Go being the best thing in the world and rocking your sox, widening your corizons nad increasing your ROI, in our hackerSpace Startup Accelerator
 441 2013-02-16 12:18:04 <upb> claimed that go has no bugs
 442 2013-02-16 12:18:09 <doublec> like Luke-Jr said, all programs have bugs
 443 2013-02-16 12:18:25 * TD lolz at go
 444 2013-02-16 12:18:41 <Luke-Jr> TD: eh, isn't Go from you Google guys? :P
 445 2013-02-16 12:19:00 <TD> I remember being asked by them why we weren't using Go for a rewrite of an internal server we were doing
 446 2013-02-16 12:19:29 <TD> I gave them a long list of reasons, which ended with "It was designed by the same guy who did C and Sawzall, neither of which are famous for being pleasant to use"
 447 2013-02-16 12:19:49 <Luke-Jr> I rather enjoy C.
 448 2013-02-16 12:19:54 <TD> which was perhaps a bit bitchy, but pretty much sums up Go for me.
 449 2013-02-16 12:19:57 <Luke-Jr> especially compared to Python and Java :P
 450 2013-02-16 12:20:07 * TD can't think of a reason to ever use C for anything unless working in some very constrained environment
 451 2013-02-16 12:20:31 <doublec> and in those cases use something safer that compiles to C :)
 452 2013-02-16 12:20:50 <TD> my tolerance for new languages has steadily fallen over the years. nowadays when I find one, the first thing I do is read the FAQ
 453 2013-02-16 12:21:09 <HollyRain> doublec,  you can't create pointers to invalid memory addresses without importing "unsafe".
 454 2013-02-16 12:21:11 <TD> this kind of crap in the Go FAQ kills it dead for me
 455 2013-02-16 12:21:13 <TD> "Go doesn't provide assertions. They are undeniably convenient, but our experience has been that programmers use them as a crutch to avoid thinking about proper error handling and reporting."
 456 2013-02-16 12:21:19 <HollyRain> doublec, In other words, the memory corruption issues of C/C++ are impossible under normal conditions
 457 2013-02-16 12:21:23 <TD> yes, superb. we wouldn't want a language to be convenient now would we.
 458 2013-02-16 12:21:25 <TD> that would never do.
 459 2013-02-16 12:21:31 <HollyRain> doublec, incorrect use of null pointers normally cause your program to crash, not to silently corrupt memory.
 460 2013-02-16 12:21:54 <doublec> HollyRain: I'd rather know about incorrect use of null pointers at compile time thanks
 461 2013-02-16 12:22:40 <TD> Go appears to throw most popular language features of the last 20 years out of the window and re-invent all of them, in a way that isn't compelling at all
 462 2013-02-16 12:22:46 <Luke-Jr> HollyRain: memory corruption are the easier memory problems
 463 2013-02-16 12:23:47 <doublec> HollyRain: but that said, even picking the worlds greatest languge for coding bitcoin like apps in, the "need to rewrite" is a killer
 464 2013-02-16 12:24:06 <TD> yeah
 465 2013-02-16 12:24:14 <TD> it's a pain in the ass. trust me on that one :)
 466 2013-02-16 12:24:26 <doublec> hehe
 467 2013-02-16 12:24:26 <TD> no matter how much you dislike C++ it's really not worth trying to rewrite bitcoin
 468 2013-02-16 12:25:24 <doublec> every now and then I think "I'd love to rewrite bitcoin in [my favourite language]" but then I realise what a monumental effort it would be that I'd never complete it
 469 2013-02-16 12:25:41 <doublec> and it'd just end up having different bugs
 470 2013-02-16 12:26:16 <TD> yeah. bitcoinj  is almost/barely justifiable, because you need to do some stuff differently in SPV mode, and because at the time there was no good library API for bitcoin (still isn't except for bcj imho)
 471 2013-02-16 12:26:22 <TD> but even so it's a titanic pile of work
 472 2013-02-16 12:26:47 <TD> oh, the other justification is there's lots of developers who can make useful contributions but can't handle unmanaged platforms, for whatever reason. so it opens bitcoin up to them.
 473 2013-02-16 12:26:49 <doublec> right, you've picked a different angle to concentrate on which is much more worthwhile
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 484 2013-02-16 12:53:41 <HollyRain> I understand that it would be a great effort, and it's true that Go has stop-the-world GC but I only wanted to say about one possibility for a greater productivity and to attract to developers outside of C++
 485 2013-02-16 12:54:19 <SomeoneWeird> v8's gc is better
 486 2013-02-16 12:55:04 <upb> yes, so let's rewrite it in node.js
 487 2013-02-16 12:55:09 <HollyRain> personally, I see to Rust like a language better suitted to substitute to C++; Rust has also a GC but it's optional
 488 2013-02-16 12:55:28 <Scrat> upb: YES. nothing can go wrong
 489 2013-02-16 12:55:40 <upb> node.js is webscale
 490 2013-02-16 12:55:49 <HollyRain> but Rust is under heavy development
 491 2013-02-16 12:55:50 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"])
 492 2013-02-16 12:55:50 * Scrat creates a new file called bitcoin.js in sublime text
 493 2013-02-16 12:55:56 <upb> ahahhaha
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 497 2013-02-16 12:58:40 <Luke-Jr> someone wrote a node.js poolserver, but never released the code
 498 2013-02-16 12:58:46 Muis has joined
 499 2013-02-16 12:58:56 <Luke-Jr> bitp.it IIRC
 500 2013-02-16 13:03:54 <SomeoneWeird> <upb> yes, so let's rewrite it in node.js < bitcoinjs.org
 501 2013-02-16 13:03:56 <SomeoneWeird> already done
 502 2013-02-16 13:05:57 HollyRain has left ("bye")
 503 2013-02-16 13:11:35 <HM> ah Javascript
 504 2013-02-16 13:11:53 <HM> the language that's popular simply because you have no alternative on the web
 505 2013-02-16 13:12:10 <SomeoneWeird> <HM> the language that's popular simply because it's awesome
 506 2013-02-16 13:12:11 <SomeoneWeird> fixed
 507 2013-02-16 13:13:25 <HM> as multi-paradigm dynamic languages go it's fairly ordinary
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 509 2013-02-16 13:17:41 <HM> The only static typed languages that make sense outside of C++ are possibly Rust and Go
 510 2013-02-16 13:18:20 <HM> Go because it's backed by Google and Rust because it's vaguely backed by Mozilla and targets the right compromise of features (imo)
 511 2013-02-16 13:19:10 <HM> Java also, since that's still relevant
 512 2013-02-16 13:19:57 <HM> but both of the first 2 would reduce potential for contributions from developers to any C++ project these days imho
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 522 2013-02-16 14:23:08 ilian000 has joined
 523 2013-02-16 14:23:11 <ilian000> Hello
 524 2013-02-16 14:25:45 <sipa> hi
 525 2013-02-16 14:26:31 <ilian000> Hello, sipa. Have we met before?
 526 2013-02-16 14:27:16 <sipa> eh, #bitcoin-nl
 527 2013-02-16 14:27:50 <ilian000> Yep :D
 528 2013-02-16 14:30:03 <sipa> ;;genrate 100
 529 2013-02-16 14:30:04 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 100.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 3275464.58657, is 0.0153537461065 BTC per day and 0.000639739421106 BTC per hour.
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 553 2013-02-16 15:47:34 <gavinandresen> sipa gmaxwell jgarzik wumpus : I'm not seeing any 0.8 final showstoppers; I know the progressbar change was being considered for 0.8, but I think it can wait. So I propose that we pull #2311 and tag the result 0.8 final.
 554 2013-02-16 15:50:32 LargoG has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 555 2013-02-16 15:53:20 <wumpus> the progress bar pull is ready code-wise, only possible reason not to pull it is that it requires new translations
 556 2013-02-16 15:55:31 <wumpus> if we'd pull it and do a release immediately, that'd mean that the progress bar stuff will be mostly untranslated
 557 2013-02-16 15:55:31 <gavinandresen> new translations is a good reason not to pull at this point
 558 2013-02-16 15:55:45 <wumpus> I guess so
 559 2013-02-16 15:56:12 <gavinandresen> It also worried me because I managed to crash it running an upgrade-from-0.7 scenario
 560 2013-02-16 15:56:31 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 561 2013-02-16 15:56:49 <wumpus> hm sipa did you fix that?
 562 2013-02-16 15:57:43 freakazoid_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 563 2013-02-16 15:58:58 <gavinandresen> (one of the routines needs to check for a NULL *pindex or something if I recall...)
 564 2013-02-16 15:59:11 <gavinandresen> This talk looks interesting:  http://mirror.be.gbxs.net/video.fosdem.org//2013/maintracks/Janson/LibreOffice__cleaning_and_re_factoring_a_giant_code_base.webm
 565 2013-02-16 16:00:53 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ACK
 566 2013-02-16 16:01:55 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: if I go to an open source developer's conference, which one should I go to?
 567 2013-02-16 16:02:21 occulta has joined
 568 2013-02-16 16:02:24 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: hard to answer.  an easier question to answer is "is X a good one?"
 569 2013-02-16 16:02:28 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: FOSDEM is a good one
 570 2013-02-16 16:02:51 * gavinandresen goes to see if there's one he can drive to....
 571 2013-02-16 16:02:52 LargoG has joined
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 573 2013-02-16 16:03:34 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #242: FAILURE in 4 min 33 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/242/
 574 2013-02-16 16:05:38 <sipa> gavinandresen: let me know if you plan to go to fosdem next year - i'm sure we can get a dev room or something :)
 575 2013-02-16 16:05:50 <sipa> wumpus: i fixed that yes
 576 2013-02-16 16:06:14 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 577 2013-02-16 16:06:41 <gavinandresen> lcov failing on jenkins: geninfo: ERROR: no .gcda files found in /mnt/jenkins/jobs/Bitcoin/workspace/src   ....
 578 2013-02-16 16:07:10 * gavinandresen doesn't know hardly nuthin about lcov/gcov, but should learn
 579 2013-02-16 16:07:44 <sipa> wumpus, gavinandresen: i'd really still like to get a nice "Your database is corrupted. Do you want to rebuild it now? [Yes]/No" dialog in -Qt, if the consistency check fails
 580 2013-02-16 16:08:24 <sipa> i'm worried about the number of corrupted databases i've seen reported so far, but i guess we can't avoid that on consumer hardware
 581 2013-02-16 16:09:46 <gavinandresen> I'm worried also, but I don't see how to debug/diagnose/fix it
 582 2013-02-16 16:10:42 <sipa> but if it's inevitable, i'd like to deal with it in a user-friendly way
 583 2013-02-16 16:11:13 <sipa> not "&!%$&$!& CRASH!", and have the user google/search forums/support/... to hear "yeah, start with -reindex"
 584 2013-02-16 16:16:20 <jaakkos> is bdb data and metadata checksummed?
 585 2013-02-16 16:16:42 <sipa> jaakkos: bdb no idea, but 0.8 uses leveldb which does checksum
 586 2013-02-16 16:16:52 <jaakkos> so at least it can detect if it's messed up
 587 2013-02-16 16:17:09 <gavinandresen> sipa: behavior now in case of curruption is a crash, or a message box that says "corrupted" ?
 588 2013-02-16 16:18:51 <sipa> gavinandresen: if just the consistency check fails, but databases open, there's a "Corrupted block database detected. Please restart the client with -reindex"... that's acceptable I guess, but a question to do that immediately is still nicer
 589 2013-02-16 16:19:06 <sipa> there are some cases where we just rely on an exception not being caught, though
 590 2013-02-16 16:19:35 <gavinandresen> yes, nicer, but not a showstopper...
 591 2013-02-16 16:27:20 zooko has left ("#tahoe-lafs")
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 593 2013-02-16 16:35:18 <sipa> gavinandresen: let me write a patch real quick; up to you to decide whether it still can get it
 594 2013-02-16 16:37:06 <gavinandresen> sipa: ok
 595 2013-02-16 16:38:15 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
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 597 2013-02-16 16:42:42 <sipa> wumpus: i'll need your help to get the clicked value in a messagebox with yes/no
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 602 2013-02-16 16:47:59 <sipa> wait, i think i get it
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 610 2013-02-16 16:58:04 <Varan> Is there a python library to download blocks from the network?
 611 2013-02-16 16:58:48 moore_ has joined
 612 2013-02-16 16:59:25 <Varan> like bitcoinj
 613 2013-02-16 17:00:08 <TD> there are a few floating about. but none are as complete as bitcoinj
 614 2013-02-16 17:00:16 <gavinandresen> Varan: I think jgarzik's python-bitcoin-library-whose-name-I-can't-remember-right-now can do that much
 615 2013-02-16 17:00:18 <TD> you could use Jython, if you like. then you'd write your code in python but have access to the bitcoinj api
 616 2013-02-16 17:00:32 coblee has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 617 2013-02-16 17:02:00 <gavinandresen> Varan: I started some Twisted code that speaks the protocol:  https://github.com/gavinandresen/Bitcoin-protocol-test-harness/blob/master/BitcoinClient.py
 618 2013-02-16 17:02:44 <Varan> oke
 619 2013-02-16 17:03:44 <TD> Varan: http://wiki.python.org/jython/UserGuide#invoking-the-jython-interpreter
 620 2013-02-16 17:04:01 <TD> Varan: read that page and then consider if that'd be an easier way to do things. jython is basically python but that can interop with java libraries.
 621 2013-02-16 17:04:07 Skav has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 622 2013-02-16 17:04:13 <TD> but the language is the same, you can use a command line interpreter etc
 623 2013-02-16 17:04:34 <TD> you could do "from com.google.bitcoin.core import BlockChain" etc
 624 2013-02-16 17:04:48 <Varan> I'm trying to download the blockchain and stuff it into a database ... and make some graphs from it
 625 2013-02-16 17:05:24 <gavinandresen> ah.  are you running Bitcoin-Qt or bitcoind?
 626 2013-02-16 17:05:26 <Varan> Iḿ using dotcloud .... and uptil now i have been abusing the blockchain.info api .... but it doesn't like me downloading alot of blocks
 627 2013-02-16 17:05:50 <Varan> no
 628 2013-02-16 17:06:02 <Varan> I dont mind if it takes 24 hours to download all the blocks and I dont need to verify them
 629 2013-02-16 17:06:20 <TD> first task, bring up your own bitcoin node. then when you run your program you can sync from your local node and don't repeatedly put load on the network
 630 2013-02-16 17:06:26 <TD> because you won't get it right first time
 631 2013-02-16 17:06:32 <Varan> hmm
 632 2013-02-16 17:06:41 <gavinandresen> ok.  If you were, using the JSON-RPC getblock method would probably be easiest
 633 2013-02-16 17:06:50 <Varan> oke
 634 2013-02-16 17:07:14 <Varan> I can try to run bitcoin on dotcloud and use json rpc
 635 2013-02-16 17:07:18 <TD> what is dotcloud
 636 2013-02-16 17:07:34 <TD> just run it on your desktop/laptop
 637 2013-02-16 17:07:38 <gavinandresen> getblock and getrawtransaction (and run with -txindex on version 0.8) will get you all the data in the chain.
 638 2013-02-16 17:08:13 <gavinandresen> (and -blocknotify if you want to be told when the chain changes….)
 639 2013-02-16 17:08:35 <Varan> hmm oke
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 641 2013-02-16 17:08:58 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
 642 2013-02-16 17:09:00 <Varan> TD https://www.dotcloud.com/
 643 2013-02-16 17:09:39 <TD> Varan: i meant for development …. just run a bitcoind locally as it'll make testing your software go faster.
 644 2013-02-16 17:09:48 <Varan> hmm yeah
 645 2013-02-16 17:10:04 frosks has joined
 646 2013-02-16 17:10:32 <Varan> gavinandresen, thanks
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 652 2013-02-16 17:15:56 <Jouke> ;;seen tcatm:
 653 2013-02-16 17:15:56 <gribble> I have not seen tcatm:.
 654 2013-02-16 17:16:00 <Jouke> ;;seen tcatm
 655 2013-02-16 17:16:00 <gribble> tcatm was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 22 hours, 32 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <tcatm> It's a syslog replacement with some nice features.
 656 2013-02-16 17:17:38 CodesInChaos has joined
 657 2013-02-16 17:19:30 <tcatm> Jouke: ?
 658 2013-02-16 17:20:13 <Jouke> tcatm: I was looking at bitcoin-js-remote and as the project didn't receive any updates in 2 years I was wondering if you were still alive.
 659 2013-02-16 17:20:50 <tcatm> Ah :)
 660 2013-02-16 17:21:19 <TD> he's alive!
 661 2013-02-16 17:21:34 <sipa> alive!
 662 2013-02-16 17:21:49 <Jouke> It looks really interesting to me, but I can't get it to connect to my own client.
 663 2013-02-16 17:22:48 <tcatm> Maybe the RPC API has changed and it's not compatible anymore.
 664 2013-02-16 17:22:55 <Jouke> I guess
 665 2013-02-16 17:23:25 <sipa> i know of no backward-incompatible changes to it
 666 2013-02-16 17:26:46 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/mroxy/bot/btcoxygen|BTCOxygen
 667 2013-02-16 17:28:40 <Jouke> well, I use ssl that is buildt into the client.
 668 2013-02-16 17:29:16 <TD> tcatm: will you ever come back and make our clients beautiful again?
 669 2013-02-16 17:29:34 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 670 2013-02-16 17:29:56 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 671 2013-02-16 17:30:41 <tcatm> TD: Hrm, I don't know. I'm quite busy with wireless mesh networks lately :/
 672 2013-02-16 17:30:51 <TD> ah. also an interesting topic :) what specifically? cjdns?
 673 2013-02-16 17:31:42 <sipa> wireless mesh networks sounds a lot more lowlevel than cjdns
 674 2013-02-16 17:33:04 testnode9 has joined
 675 2013-02-16 17:33:12 <tcatm> Yep. It's basically figuring out how random wifi clients could connect to a larger mesh and roam without their TCP connections breaking.
 676 2013-02-16 17:35:03 <moore_> tcatm, what stack are you working with for wireless?
 677 2013-02-16 17:35:23 <moore_> ( in a passed life I did mesh network hacking )
 678 2013-02-16 17:36:05 <tcatm> Standard OpenWRT with ath9k in IBSS mode and batman-adv.
 679 2013-02-16 17:36:40 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 680 2013-02-16 17:36:49 <moore_> I was never sure about batman but it seems to be working out well
 681 2013-02-16 17:36:59 <sturles> Is 802.11s useful?
 682 2013-02-16 17:37:19 <tcatm> The last time I tried 11s it didn't work reliable (or at all on some devices).
 683 2013-02-16 17:37:55 darkee has quit (!~darkee@gateway/tor-sasl/darkee|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 684 2013-02-16 17:37:57 <tcatm> So, no. It's layer2 only, anyway and we would like to switch to IPv6-only layer3 soon.
 685 2013-02-16 17:38:41 <moore_> tcatm, O cool
 686 2013-02-16 17:38:53 <moore_> I thought that was the way to go back when I was hacking
 687 2013-02-16 17:39:09 <moore_> I started with Mobile Mesh when the code was released and added features
 688 2013-02-16 17:39:24 <tcatm> I've got a test mesh here using babel and ipv6 (with nat64/dns64). Works quite nice but doesn't support "dumb" clients yet.
 689 2013-02-16 17:40:05 <moore_> do you just do random address asigment or do you try to do any ting interesting
 690 2013-02-16 17:40:26 <tcatm> In babel or batman-adv?
 691 2013-02-16 17:40:34 <TD> tcatm: did you see my talk in london? the micropayment based wifi billing might be interesting to you
 692 2013-02-16 17:40:50 <moore_> either
 693 2013-02-16 17:40:54 <tcatm> TD: No I haven't. Is there a video?
 694 2013-02-16 17:41:24 <sturles> Does batman-adv have any advantages over olsr, or is it just a matter of taste?
 695 2013-02-16 17:41:41 <tcatm> For babel I use ahcp for now. In the "production" batman-adv mesh we have a few DHCP servers and radvds.
 696 2013-02-16 17:41:46 <tcatm> sturles: roaming!
 697 2013-02-16 17:41:48 <moore_> it seemed to me that to get really big nets you would want to have some form of hierarchical routing but address selection was a challange
 698 2013-02-16 17:42:14 <sturles> tcatm: That's an important feature, yes!
 699 2013-02-16 17:42:33 <moore_> tcatm, is this the Berlin networks you are hacking on?
 700 2013-02-16 17:42:52 <tcatm> moore_: Nope. It's the one in Lübeck.
 701 2013-02-16 17:42:56 <moore_> k
 702 2013-02-16 17:43:31 <moore_> some day I want to get back to that mesh stuff, for now I will stick to trying to kill DNS :)
 703 2013-02-16 17:43:35 <tcatm> Address selection is only a problem with IPv4. The nodes themselfes only have automatically assigned IPv6 addresses so that's not problem.
 704 2013-02-16 17:44:23 <moore_> but if you want heretical routing things get challenging
 705 2013-02-16 17:45:13 <moore_> the next approach I wanted to work on was OSPF for 2-4 hops but heretical for longer routes
 706 2013-02-16 17:45:29 <moore_> but then you need to figure out the address selection so you can pull that off
 707 2013-02-16 17:45:32 <tcatm> Did you read the babel RFC?
 708 2013-02-16 17:46:12 thermoman has joined
 709 2013-02-16 17:47:07 <moore_> this babel stuff looks interesting
 710 2013-02-16 17:48:26 <tcatm> yes, and it should work well when deployed correctly. It could even be used as an IGP with some tweaks.
 711 2013-02-16 17:49:50 <moore_> after reading for a minute it is clear things have advanced quite a lot for the last time I check in
 712 2013-02-16 17:50:13 <moore_> I want to build a network hear in SF at some point
 713 2013-02-16 17:50:38 <moore_> I had one running in Santa Cruze when I lived there ( ten years ago )
 714 2013-02-16 17:51:58 <moore_> good stuff sorry for the off topic conversation
 715 2013-02-16 17:52:00 * sipa fails at Qt
 716 2013-02-16 17:52:40 * ilian000 is exhausted of javascript programming
 717 2013-02-16 17:52:48 <TD> tcatm: yes, it's linked to from http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts
 718 2013-02-16 17:52:48 <TD> tcatm: at the top
 719 2013-02-16 17:53:44 <tcatm> I'll watch it :)
 720 2013-02-16 17:53:55 <TD> tcatm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mD4L7xDNCmA
 721 2013-02-16 17:54:20 <TD> cool. it basically just covers how to use the micropayments part of bitcoin (locktime/sequence numbers) to buy transfer quota incrementally
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 724 2013-02-16 17:58:27 <MC1984> qt is consistently about 220mb in winxp
 725 2013-02-16 17:58:33 <MC1984> normal right
 726 2013-02-16 17:58:45 <MC1984> just syncd and sitting idle
 727 2013-02-16 17:58:49 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 728 2013-02-16 18:01:46 Zarutian has joined
 729 2013-02-16 18:03:11 <andytoshi> MC1984: that's what i'm at on linux with bitcoind, 250
 730 2013-02-16 18:03:16 TD has joined
 731 2013-02-16 18:06:11 CodesInChaos has joined
 732 2013-02-16 18:08:26 <ProfMac> Where could I discuss FIX (Financial Information eXchange, used by bitfloor)
 733 2013-02-16 18:08:44 <sipa> never heard of FIX
 734 2013-02-16 18:09:20 <ProfMac> http://fixprotocol.org/specifications/
 735 2013-02-16 18:09:55 <ProfMac> https://bitfloor.com/docs/api
 736 2013-02-16 18:10:35 <ProfMac> a substitute question would be, where do the trader client writers hang out?
 737 2013-02-16 18:10:43 coblee has joined
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 739 2013-02-16 18:12:20 <MC1984> andytoshi alright
 740 2013-02-16 18:16:24 freakazoid_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 741 2013-02-16 18:17:54 <sipa> i give up
 742 2013-02-16 18:18:10 <sipa> src/qt/bitcoin.cpp's ThreadSafeMessageBox returns false
 743 2013-02-16 18:18:24 <sipa> and the caller in src/init.cpp still thinks it returns true
 744 2013-02-16 18:18:58 <MC1984> is it still possible/easy to mung your blockchain so that you have to throw it out and start again
 745 2013-02-16 18:19:06 <Eliel_> wasn't the problem with allowing updates to transactions with nLocktime that allowing updates allows for spamming the network easily?
 746 2013-02-16 18:19:07 word has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 747 2013-02-16 18:19:25 <sipa> MC1984: yes
 748 2013-02-16 18:19:39 <MC1984> aw
 749 2013-02-16 18:19:49 <sipa> no hardware is flawless
 750 2013-02-16 18:20:03 <MC1984> discounting hardware fault
 751 2013-02-16 18:20:14 <sipa> in theory, no
 752 2013-02-16 18:20:27 <MC1984> cool
 753 2013-02-16 18:20:38 <sipa> but it still happens all the time, judging from reports on forums
 754 2013-02-16 18:21:09 <sipa> i literally have a hard time reproducing such conditions though
 755 2013-02-16 18:21:19 <MC1984> seems like an unexpected chain muning would be a prime reason for people to give up running a full node in the future
 756 2013-02-16 18:22:40 <Eliel_> sipa: do you know the answer to my question?
 757 2013-02-16 18:22:42 <wumpus> sipa: do you have the code somewhere?
 758 2013-02-16 18:23:34 <wumpus> I can probably help debug the qt issue
 759 2013-02-16 18:23:35 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #243: STILL FAILING in 4 min 36 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/243/
 760 2013-02-16 18:23:48 <sipa> wumpus: in my 'loaderror' branch
 761 2013-02-16 18:23:53 <wumpus> ok
 762 2013-02-16 18:23:54 <sipa> wumpus: it's not Qt related
 763 2013-02-16 18:24:20 <sipa> i got the Qt stuff working, but now it just seems boost signals doesn't work as i expect (or as documented)
 764 2013-02-16 18:25:54 <sipa> Eliel_: it's sort of a dangerous feature as it allows for several attack vectors (chain spam, node DDoS, ...) or at least unclear economics, and as there are no applications that need it yet...
 765 2013-02-16 18:27:12 <Eliel_> sipa: ok, so requiring increased transaction fee for each update won't be enough as a solution then.
 766 2013-02-16 18:27:19 <sipa> enabling transaction replacement is technically easy - the code exists already, but it's commented out yet
 767 2013-02-16 18:27:21 <wumpus> sipa:  did you add a , boost::signals2::last_value<bool> for the signal 
 768 2013-02-16 18:27:31 <wumpus> otherwise it will not use the return value at all
 769 2013-02-16 18:27:35 <sipa> wumpus: according to the docs, last value is the default
 770 2013-02-16 18:27:47 <wumpus> that's not my experience
 771 2013-02-16 18:28:08 <wumpus> maybe the default changed
 772 2013-02-16 18:28:23 <sipa> i'll try that
 773 2013-02-16 18:28:39 moore_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 774 2013-02-16 18:28:39 <sipa> playing around with trying to corrupt my databases makes me worry though
 775 2013-02-16 18:28:53 <sipa> sometimes it just starts up fine, without detecting any error
 776 2013-02-16 18:28:59 <sipa> sometimes it segfaults
 777 2013-02-16 18:29:03 <wumpus> ugh
 778 2013-02-16 18:29:27 <sipa> the current consistency check is stronger later in the chain, as 288 blocks corresponds to more transactions
 779 2013-02-16 18:29:50 <sipa> and i'm testing with an uncommon situation with errors very early
 780 2013-02-16 18:33:16 <sipa> wumpus: also, i added a bool* argument to message() to return the button value - perhaps not a neat solution, but it's the only one i saw
 781 2013-02-16 18:33:42 <sipa> wumpus: also, exiting -Qt doesn't seem to make the reindexing thread exit
 782 2013-02-16 18:33:54 <sipa> does fShutdown or fRequestShutdown get set?
 783 2013-02-16 18:34:16 <wumpus> maybe not neat but I think it's the only way to return values across threads
 784 2013-02-16 18:35:17 <wumpus> it just calls Shutdown, isn't that enough?
 785 2013-02-16 18:35:22 <sipa> hmm
 786 2013-02-16 18:35:49 <sipa> that only sets fShutdown
 787 2013-02-16 18:36:07 <sipa> probably should also set fRequestShutdown
 788 2013-02-16 18:36:59 frosks has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 789 2013-02-16 18:37:02 <wumpus> where is that normally set?
 790 2013-02-16 18:37:36 <wumpus> I thought requestshutdown was for signal handling
 791 2013-02-16 18:37:43 <sipa> yes
 792 2013-02-16 18:38:04 Testerbit has joined
 793 2013-02-16 18:38:25 <sipa> but some threads don't wait for the actual shutdown to be initiated
 794 2013-02-16 18:39:00 <sipa> background block import can exit as soon as shutdown is requested, even Shutdown isn't called yet
 795 2013-02-16 18:39:05 <wumpus> it's not set by RPC quit either
 796 2013-02-16 18:39:51 <Testerbit> is there a reasource I can give to my programming team for how to safely integrate bitcoin acceptance and sending?
 797 2013-02-16 18:40:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 798 2013-02-16 18:40:17 <wumpus> but I guess a fReuestShutdown = true could be added before the Shutdown call
 799 2013-02-16 18:41:02 <sipa> or even inside Shutdown
 800 2013-02-16 18:41:17 <sipa> the whole thread management stuff is ugly anyway
 801 2013-02-16 18:41:30 <wumpus> I suppose that's safest, at least no one can forget it that way
 802 2013-02-16 18:42:06 <sipa> wumpus: seems the last_value<bool> helped; thanks
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 804 2013-02-16 18:42:12 <wumpus>  cool
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 813 2013-02-16 19:05:40 <Luke-Jr> git always amazes me: gc just took 52 GB down to 5.7 GB
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 818 2013-02-16 19:09:49 <TD> Testerbit: hmm
 819 2013-02-16 19:09:59 <TD> Testerbit: unfortunately not. which may explain the popularity of payment processors like bitpay.
 820 2013-02-16 19:10:11 <TD> Testerbit: it partly depends what you mean by "safely", of course
 821 2013-02-16 19:11:01 <TD> Testerbit: the bitcoinj library has lots of documentation, albeit, it's still a pre-1.0 release (as is bitcoin itself). it runs callbacks when you receive money, and so on. pretty straightforward. there are articles on its website about security models and understanding how you can be attacked.
 822 2013-02-16 19:11:36 <Testerbit> not having the site be vulnarable to permant loss of funds like bitcoinica and bitfloor had
 823 2013-02-16 19:12:17 <sipa> that's more a question of good security practices, rather than correct integration with bitcoin
 824 2013-02-16 19:12:24 <sipa> though those are related of course
 825 2013-02-16 19:13:16 <TD> Testerbit: theer is less documentation on that topic. the techniques used can be pretty simple, but there's not one book or page summing them all up
 826 2013-02-16 19:13:25 <TD> Testerbit: but it depends a lot on what your site does
 827 2013-02-16 19:13:28 <Testerbit> it seems the only realy solution right now is keeping the coins in coldstorage and having a person manually verify the outgoing transactions
 828 2013-02-16 19:13:38 <sipa> (= even if you perfectly handle all payment-related things in bitcoin like reorganisations and attempted double spends, if you backup your private keys to half a million dollars unencrypted on a $5/month VPS, you shouldn't expect to keep them for long...)
 829 2013-02-16 19:13:44 <Testerbit> it will be an exchange that trades contracts
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 831 2013-02-16 19:14:03 <Scrat> hey now sipa
 832 2013-02-16 19:14:05 <TD> for an exchange, yes it's much harder because you are holding other peoples money on their behalf
 833 2013-02-16 19:14:09 <Scrat> it was $20/month vps
 834 2013-02-16 19:14:22 <sipa> ok ok, and it may have been less than $500000 too
 835 2013-02-16 19:14:37 <TD> Testerbit: keeping most of the funds in a cold wallet is indeed a good start. using dedicated hardware only you control rather than a rented VPS or remote box is another good step.
 836 2013-02-16 19:14:59 <TD> Testerbit: one thing i've thought about is separating your app into frontend and core, and run the core on a separate server that's only reachable via a Tor hidden service.
 837 2013-02-16 19:15:16 <Testerbit> Td: sure, but if the site ever has a larg user base processing many transactions one person can't manually verify all of them, then what?
 838 2013-02-16 19:15:17 <TD> it means nobody (except you) knows where the sensitive part and the wallet is hosted, so attacking the infrastructure provider becomes harder
 839 2013-02-16 19:15:39 dust-otc has joined
 840 2013-02-16 19:15:51 <TD> Testerbit: if you absolutely must receive and send large sums of money automatically, i'd suggest exploring if your business model is a good idea or if what you want to build can be done in a purely p2p/trustless manner :)
 841 2013-02-16 19:16:09 <TD> but more helpfully, yes, that is the worst case scenario and means you need to be really damn careful, take all the best practices etc
 842 2013-02-16 19:16:20 <Testerbit> the site can never become an organization because it will always rely on one person
 843 2013-02-16 19:16:22 <TD> it IS possible, see mtgox which is surviving OK despite the huge rewards for hacking it
 844 2013-02-16 19:16:26 <TD> but it's not easy
 845 2013-02-16 19:16:48 <sipa> Testerbit: one technique is queuing outgoing transaction for a short time on a server that only does the signing (and thus is the only one with secret keys), say a few minutes, and if the accumulated amount gets too high, go into safe mode, stop operation, and notify a human
 846 2013-02-16 19:17:36 <Testerbit> sipa, that seems like a good idea
 847 2013-02-16 19:17:45 <TD> yeah, you can have an online risk analysis
 848 2013-02-16 19:17:46 <sipa> that isn't a golden bullet of course, and you still need to make sure hacking that server is hard
 849 2013-02-16 19:18:05 <TD> basically, minimize the surface area of whatever machine holds the wallet, and make sure all inputs and outputs are analyzed really hard
 850 2013-02-16 19:18:08 occulta has joined
 851 2013-02-16 19:18:11 <sipa> but it becomes much harder if the only automated input to that results in theft is transactions that are already signed by the frontend
 852 2013-02-16 19:18:28 <Scrat> that server can accept a minimal ascii protocol on a scripted language, thus making it remotely unhackable
 853 2013-02-16 19:18:46 <Testerbit> my fear is I think everything is hackable, if twitter facebook and google have been hacked, it seems any online server can be exploited
 854 2013-02-16 19:19:00 <sipa> Testerbit: that's a good assumption :)
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 856 2013-02-16 19:19:36 <TD> twitter facebook and google are not servers
 857 2013-02-16 19:19:39 <TD> they are companies
 858 2013-02-16 19:19:47 <TD> and in most cases, the hacks were contained. which is what you would have to focus on
 859 2013-02-16 19:19:56 <TD> making it hard to get in, and then constraining the attacker once they're inside
 860 2013-02-16 19:20:21 <TD> hackers aren't omnipotent, obviously. most sites that get hacked are pathetically insecure, the owners hardly even tried.
 861 2013-02-16 19:20:22 <Testerbit> sealswithclubs is another site that recieves and then sends out bitcoins, they seem to do it without a report of stolen coins
 862 2013-02-16 19:20:33 <moarrr> The reason things get hacked is simple
 863 2013-02-16 19:20:35 <TD> (yet)
 864 2013-02-16 19:20:36 <moarrr> Computer programmers are idiots
 865 2013-02-16 19:20:52 <sipa> moarrr: perhaps, but that doesn't help
 866 2013-02-16 19:20:56 <moarrr> If you wrote key web services in ASM and used encrypted/proprietary/binary protocols this problem will go away
 867 2013-02-16 19:21:03 <sipa> lol
 868 2013-02-16 19:21:24 <sipa> i'm sure that if everyone switched to assembly-written webservices, hacks would multiply massively
 869 2013-02-16 19:21:26 <TD> haha
 870 2013-02-16 19:21:31 <Testerbit> yea well development will take forever
 871 2013-02-16 19:21:38 <sipa> because they'd all be completely unmaintainable
 872 2013-02-16 19:21:41 <Scrat> why stop there
 873 2013-02-16 19:21:48 <Scrat> write your own tcp stack in asm
 874 2013-02-16 19:21:55 <Scrat> and your OS while you're at it
 875 2013-02-16 19:22:01 <Scrat> thats how i roll
 876 2013-02-16 19:22:04 <moarrr> we should also change the standard employment contract
 877 2013-02-16 19:22:09 <moarrr> they should be paid $1000/hr
 878 2013-02-16 19:22:21 <moarrr> but a hitman should kill their firstborn if their software gets hacked more than 3 times
 879 2013-02-16 19:22:30 <Testerbit> right or create the whole system as an ASIC
 880 2013-02-16 19:22:35 <sipa> how much will the hitman be paid?
 881 2013-02-16 19:22:57 <moarrr> depends how much money the hack loses
 882 2013-02-16 19:23:16 <moarrr> ok maybe thats too harsh
 883 2013-02-16 19:23:17 <MC1984> half down, half once the jobs done
 884 2013-02-16 19:23:18 <MC1984> the usual
 885 2013-02-16 19:23:20 <moarrr> they should instead be kidnapped
 886 2013-02-16 19:23:23 <K1773R> nah, thats perfect
 887 2013-02-16 19:23:25 <moarrr> and moved to alaska
 888 2013-02-16 19:23:35 <sipa> what they already live in alaska?
 889 2013-02-16 19:23:45 <K1773R> stupid devs will die out and there will be less humans!
 890 2013-02-16 19:23:54 <moarrr> sipa: you ever hired an alaskan coder? :P
 891 2013-02-16 19:24:02 <sipa> no
 892 2013-02-16 19:24:11 <moarrr> thank god for that
 893 2013-02-16 19:24:12 <moarrr> ;)
 894 2013-02-16 19:24:22 <Testerbit> well all the stolen bitcoin funds know to date have been done as result of them not being in cold storage?
 895 2013-02-16 19:24:32 <upb> no
 896 2013-02-16 19:25:00 <upb> it was a result of idiots trying to run exchanges
 897 2013-02-16 19:25:03 <moarrr> imho though, the entire nature of the web is obsolete
 898 2013-02-16 19:25:49 <moarrr> even ip routing is obsoltete
 899 2013-02-16 19:26:07 <moarrr> everything on top of ip, including ip sucks
 900 2013-02-16 19:26:12 <Testerbit> moarrr: go build the solution
 901 2013-02-16 19:26:23 <MC1984> take your pills
 902 2013-02-16 19:26:23 <Scrat> he already has
 903 2013-02-16 19:26:27 <Scrat> irc channel services!
 904 2013-02-16 19:26:37 <moarrr> Everything should be based on IRC
 905 2013-02-16 19:26:40 <moarrr> j/k
 906 2013-02-16 19:27:01 <moarrr> ill let smart people deal with it, im retired
 907 2013-02-16 19:27:11 <andytoshi> i do everything over TCP/IRC
 908 2013-02-16 19:27:16 <upb> how can you be retired at 7 years old?:P
 909 2013-02-16 19:27:17 <andytoshi> and i use a webui
 910 2013-02-16 19:27:50 <moarrr> rich parents upb
 911 2013-02-16 19:27:51 <moarrr> ;)
 912 2013-02-16 19:28:04 <sipa> andytoshi: that is TCP over IRC as a network layer?
 913 2013-02-16 19:28:36 <moarrr> if people think the spam/porn filled web/email/irc/etc system is even remotely well-designed
 914 2013-02-16 19:28:39 <moarrr> i laugh
 915 2013-02-16 19:28:42 <sipa> as IRC itself uses TCP, that is an infinite loop :P
 916 2013-02-16 19:30:04 <upb> http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/6593550_460s_v1.jpg
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 919 2013-02-16 19:36:07 <sipa> problem with the forum?
 920 2013-02-16 19:36:31 <Scrat> UDP over IRC would be great. proper multicasting
 921 2013-02-16 19:36:37 <Scrat> and others get to pay for your bandwidth
 922 2013-02-16 19:36:49 <Scrat> of course you wouldnt be able to do much because of flood limits
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 926 2013-02-16 19:51:29 <andytoshi> sipa: it's only infinite if you want it to be
 927 2013-02-16 19:51:55 <andytoshi> you can do HTTP over TCP over IRC over TCP over IP without any paradoxes :)
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 951 2013-02-16 20:57:55 <MCM-Mike> can I set dnydns address to "rpcallowip=" within config file of my bitcoin node?
 952 2013-02-16 21:00:51 <sipa> i don't think so
 953 2013-02-16 21:01:13 <sipa> and i don't recommend exposing your RPC interface to the world
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 956 2013-02-16 21:04:37 <Jouke> is one ip, "the world"?
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 959 2013-02-16 21:08:06 <Luke-Jr> Jouke: to even check the connecting IP, you have to expose it
 960 2013-02-16 21:09:34 <MCM-Mike> ok, thx
 961 2013-02-16 21:13:26 <Jouke> so you are saying I should use iptables to restrict rpc-access instead of letting bitcoind take care of that?
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 965 2013-02-16 21:13:45 <Luke-Jr> Jouke: that would be wiser
 966 2013-02-16 21:13:57 <Luke-Jr> or both
 967 2013-02-16 21:14:04 <CanisLatrans> Hello, does anyone know what the BFL room is called.
 968 2013-02-16 21:14:22 <Luke-Jr> there isn't one
 969 2013-02-16 21:14:35 <CanisLatrans> really?
 970 2013-02-16 21:15:01 <pjorrit_> well nobody's seen one live yet :D
 971 2013-02-16 21:15:47 <CanisLatrans> on there forums there is a chat, I thought it would have an irc backend
 972 2013-02-16 21:18:10 <CanisLatrans> I am looking to start mining
 973 2013-02-16 21:18:21 <CanisLatrans> where as in the past, I just bought, sold, used.
 974 2013-02-16 21:19:52 <MCM-Mike> CanisLatrans, why do you think now it the time to start mining?
 975 2013-02-16 21:22:11 <Luke-Jr> CanisLatrans: #eligius or #bitcoin-mining
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 983 2013-02-16 21:58:20 <Luke-Jr> bitcointroll.org alias working for anyone yet? <.<
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 986 2013-02-16 21:59:32 <wizkid057> Luke-Jr: would help if the place it directs to was online
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 988 2013-02-16 22:00:14 <Luke-Jr> hehe
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1030 2013-02-16 23:38:49 <enferex> I am looking at the ScriptPubKey that is in the TxOut data type for transaction messages.  For example, the firstout put in the Genesis block: http://blockexplorer.com/t/3pTRm5YNJz.  It is a public key, but why is it 65bytes or 130 hex characters lons?
1031 2013-02-16 23:39:00 <enferex> s/lons/long/
1032 2013-02-16 23:39:30 <sipa> public keys are encoded as 0x04 + 32-byte X coordinate + 32-byte Y coordinate
1033 2013-02-16 23:39:53 <sipa> or as 0x02/0x03 + 32-byte X coordinate (0x02 if Y is even, 0x03 if Y is odd)
1034 2013-02-16 23:40:01 <enferex> ah epilitic curve
1035 2013-02-16 23:40:14 <sipa> yes, secp256k1
1036 2013-02-16 23:40:16 <enferex> er elliptic
1037 2013-02-16 23:40:34 <enferex> sipa, you know all, thank you
1038 2013-02-16 23:40:43 <andytoshi> sipa: is the second form what "compressed key" means?
1039 2013-02-16 23:40:47 <sipa> andytoshi: indeed
1040 2013-02-16 23:41:19 <andytoshi> cool, i'll see if i can change my brainwallet to do that
1041 2013-02-16 23:42:51 <andytoshi> oh :P openssl has functions for that, there's almost no work to do..
1042 2013-02-16 23:45:34 <enferex> who generates the public key anyways, is it created by bitcoind on initial startup?
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1044 2013-02-16 23:46:16 <gmaxwell> the? A normal bitcoin user will have as many keys as they make transactions, or more.
1045 2013-02-16 23:46:24 <gmaxwell> They're generated by the software on demand.
1046 2013-02-16 23:46:36 <andytoshi> enferex: bitcoind generates 100 when it first creates the wallet, then generates a new one everytime a transaction is done or one is requested
1047 2013-02-16 23:46:46 <andytoshi> always maintaining a 100-key buffer to keep backups valid for longer
1048 2013-02-16 23:47:38 <enferex> andytoshi: ahh ok
1049 2013-02-16 23:47:41 <enferex> very cool, thanks
1050 2013-02-16 23:48:27 <enferex> I thought the owner's public key would be constant though
1051 2013-02-16 23:48:42 <sipa> enferex: ideally, you use a different address for every transaction
1052 2013-02-16 23:48:55 <Eliel_> enferex: constant public key is bad for privacy.
1053 2013-02-16 23:49:57 <enferex> exactly
1054 2013-02-16 23:50:20 <enferex> Yea, i see this referenced on page 7 of Satoshi's paper
1055 2013-02-16 23:50:21 <sipa> then why did you think it would be used? :)
1056 2013-02-16 23:50:28 <petertodd> How hard would it be to make the keypool deterministic? Basically I'd want to make the "new key" function use a deterministic function rather than random bytes.
1057 2013-02-16 23:50:41 <petertodd> The 100-key buffer worries me re: backups...
1058 2013-02-16 23:50:42 <sipa> petertodd: see BIP32
1059 2013-02-16 23:51:12 <petertodd> I know about that, I mean getting a really simple solution now before someone loses a lot of money due to it
1060 2013-02-16 23:51:44 <sipa> i have the crypto part of bip32 already implemented
1061 2013-02-16 23:51:48 <petertodd> I'm just wondering if the bare-minimum effort solution is a 10-minute hack, or there are reasons that would make it more complex.
1062 2013-02-16 23:52:06 <petertodd> Implemented in the reference client?
1063 2013-02-16 23:52:15 <sipa> yes, the crypto part
1064 2013-02-16 23:52:19 <sipa> so not integrated in anything
1065 2013-02-16 23:52:22 <sipa> and not used
1066 2013-02-16 23:52:31 <sipa> but the code for deriving keys is there
1067 2013-02-16 23:52:32 <petertodd> Ah, so the integration is what's left then?
1068 2013-02-16 23:52:34 <sipa> yes
1069 2013-02-16 23:52:40 <gmaxwell> people also lose funds to theft— there is a tradeoff, old backups/copies expiring has value too. On the balance, BIP32 will be worth it, but it's not entirely black and white.
1070 2013-02-16 23:53:07 <gmaxwell> (When I orignally advocated it people opposed, but opinions have changed with more usage exposure)
1071 2013-02-16 23:54:25 <petertodd> A "backup-aware" solution would be nice so you could change the seed, back it up, and start using it again.
1072 2013-02-16 23:54:29 <Scrat> if a tx is included at block X then its confirmations at current block Y are Y - X + 1?
1073 2013-02-16 23:55:19 <gmaxwell> Scrat: yes.
1074 2013-02-16 23:56:10 <petertodd> Personally I use armory + 128bit password - I think compromise is less likely than backup failure.
1075 2013-02-16 23:57:23 <petertodd> *for me
1076 2013-02-16 23:57:59 <dhill> anyone use cyphertite.com?
1077 2013-02-16 23:58:55 <gmaxwell> petertodd: backup failure can be pretty trivially avoided though, set your keypool to 10,000 and back it up once a week.