1 2013-02-17 00:00:02 <dhill> enabled db4 diagnostics.. probably won't crash now since it is running slower :)
2 2013-02-17 00:00:20 enferex has left ()
3 2013-02-17 00:01:45 <petertodd> gmaxwell: True, although ideally you could have an option that would disable extending the key pool; I worry I'll accidentally run some code I write that will getnewaddress a zillion times without me realizing it.
4 2013-02-17 00:02:40 <gmaxwell> petertodd: we do, it's called encrypt your wallet.
5 2013-02-17 00:02:56 <gmaxwell> the pool can only be extended when its unlocked.
6 2013-02-17 00:04:10 <petertodd> Yes, but the problem hasn't gone away - code that legitimately needs getnewaddress is likely doing so because it's making transactions that need signing.
7 2013-02-17 00:05:21 <petertodd> Equally I might be testing something, and forget that I left bitcoin-qt running.
8 2013-02-17 00:05:33 <gmaxwell> so?
9 2013-02-17 00:05:36 <petertodd> (which is a good argument for using Armory, which I never hack on, rather than bitcoin-qt...)
10 2013-02-17 00:05:54 <gmaxwell> What does leaving bitcoin-qt running have to do with anything?
11 2013-02-17 00:06:21 <petertodd> Because if it's running, I may have used it recently, and thus entered the password and re-enabled getnewaddress
12 2013-02-17 00:06:57 <gmaxwell> Well in QT you get prompted for the specific actions. I personally never unlock it for more than a few seconds.
13 2013-02-17 00:07:33 <petertodd> True, I could just set the unlock timeout to something low - armory requires the password per transaction.
14 2013-02-17 00:08:04 <gmaxwell> Yes, and so does the QT GUI.
15 2013-02-17 00:09:07 <petertodd> Alright, there goes my objections.
16 2013-02-17 00:09:35 <gmaxwell> In any case, my only point was its less of a big deal than you may have been assuming. At one point I felt the the lone voice arguing that we should make the wallet determinstic, so obviously I support it.
17 2013-02-17 00:12:09 <petertodd> More flexible options are good regardless; but no sense to quickly hack in something like I was proposing.
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33 2013-02-17 00:41:14 * ielo ii
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37 2013-02-17 00:49:55 <dhill> crash dangit!
38 2013-02-17 00:50:02 <alex_fun> ee
39 2013-02-17 00:50:08 <alex_fun> guys and girls
40 2013-02-17 00:50:20 <alex_fun> how can I use satoshi also to make say 10,000 coins
41 2013-02-17 00:50:22 <alex_fun> and transact
42 2013-02-17 00:50:29 gritcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
43 2013-02-17 00:50:31 <alex_fun> like btc only all coins made already
44 2013-02-17 00:50:34 clr_ has joined
45 2013-02-17 00:50:58 <sipa> one does not use satoshi
46 2013-02-17 00:51:01 serp has joined
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49 2013-02-17 00:52:28 <Scrat> how do i satoshi
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51 2013-02-17 00:55:42 <andytoshi> i only andytoshi, works much for transact
52 2013-02-17 00:56:16 <alex_fun> hehe
53 2013-02-17 00:56:30 robocoin has joined
54 2013-02-17 00:57:39 <Scrat> i say we kill the andytoshi fork
55 2013-02-17 00:57:58 <alex_fun> emmm
56 2013-02-17 00:58:02 <alex_fun> so yes how do I do
57 2013-02-17 00:58:04 <alex_fun> it
58 2013-02-17 00:58:20 <alex_fun> say make 100K and use satoshi algo to p2p transact
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60 2013-02-17 00:59:34 <Scrat> make what?
61 2013-02-17 00:59:39 <Scrat> am I being trolled here?
62 2013-02-17 01:01:11 <Eliel_> Scrat: I think he wants to make his own fork of Bitcoin.
63 2013-02-17 01:02:58 jevin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
64 2013-02-17 01:05:09 <alex_fun> yep
65 2013-02-17 01:05:13 <alex_fun> thats right
66 2013-02-17 01:05:35 <alex_fun> I realised it possible to issue private currencies with this approach
67 2013-02-17 01:05:51 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: you can issue private currencies a lot easier without bitcoin
68 2013-02-17 01:05:58 <Luke-Jr> check out ripple
69 2013-02-17 01:06:08 <alex_fun> Luke-Jr ripple what?
70 2013-02-17 01:06:26 <alex_fun> I though satoshi algo is the best atm for p2p transactions
71 2013-02-17 01:06:43 <sipa> but why do you want transactions to be p2p, if issuing is private?
72 2013-02-17 01:06:48 <Luke-Jr> ^
73 2013-02-17 01:06:55 <alex_fun> sipa simple
74 2013-02-17 01:07:03 <Luke-Jr> https://ripple.com/
75 2013-02-17 01:07:16 <alex_fun> if its central issuer say 1 company it can be easily shut down
76 2013-02-17 01:07:27 <sipa> but you want a central issuer, no?
77 2013-02-17 01:07:29 <alex_fun> if coins are issued and p2p distributed
78 2013-02-17 01:07:39 <alex_fun> intially yes then distibuted
79 2013-02-17 01:07:45 <alex_fun> someone got to make the coins
80 2013-02-17 01:07:50 <alex_fun> however then for clearing
81 2013-02-17 01:07:59 <alex_fun> central issuer not required
82 2013-02-17 01:08:00 <alex_fun> :)
83 2013-02-17 01:08:15 <alex_fun> I am amazed there arent some e gold currency based on that already
84 2013-02-17 01:08:15 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: Bitcoin is pretty easy to shutdown
85 2013-02-17 01:08:33 <alex_fun> Luke-Jr unless u stop all miners pc how do u do it?
86 2013-02-17 01:08:46 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: for starters, just block port 8333 on ISPs
87 2013-02-17 01:09:16 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: or just pass a law making it illegal with fines for anyone using it
88 2013-02-17 01:09:46 jevin has joined
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90 2013-02-17 01:09:51 <Scrat> Luke-Jr: then we will transact in the shade
91 2013-02-17 01:09:53 <alex_fun> Luke I checked ripple is it for btc only?
92 2013-02-17 01:10:12 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: Ripple is for any kind of currency, including private
93 2013-02-17 01:10:25 <Luke-Jr> Scrat: no, then sipa is the only Bitcoin developer left :P
94 2013-02-17 01:10:31 <alex_fun> ok checking more
95 2013-02-17 01:10:41 <alex_fun> also who decides on changes in btc algo?
96 2013-02-17 01:10:56 <Luke-Jr> the economic majority
97 2013-02-17 01:11:02 <Luke-Jr> ie, whoever you want to pay
98 2013-02-17 01:11:06 * sipa shoots Luke-Jr
99 2013-02-17 01:11:10 <alex_fun> hmmm
100 2013-02-17 01:11:12 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ?
101 2013-02-17 01:11:12 <sipa> bitcoin is not a democracy
102 2013-02-17 01:11:26 <alex_fun> for example some mining clients are set to mine with less diff
103 2013-02-17 01:11:29 <rdponticelli> Luke-Jr: If ISP block the ports, bitcoin would continue through the tor nodes
104 2013-02-17 01:11:30 <alex_fun> they rejected then?
105 2013-02-17 01:11:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: that's the practical reality.
106 2013-02-17 01:11:38 <Scrat> sipa is the only non american core dev?
107 2013-02-17 01:11:43 <Luke-Jr> rdponticelli: not necessarily
108 2013-02-17 01:11:53 <alex_fun> i am also a developer, I can type and hit enter :D
109 2013-02-17 01:12:05 <alex_fun> I also know how to start laptop :)
110 2013-02-17 01:13:39 <alex_fun> Luke so how is that majority exercise decisions
111 2013-02-17 01:13:48 <alex_fun> I think most simple download miner client
112 2013-02-17 01:13:50 <alex_fun> and use it
113 2013-02-17 01:13:59 <alex_fun> they dont know much about btc
114 2013-02-17 01:14:04 gritcoin has joined
115 2013-02-17 01:14:29 <sipa> alex_fun: technically, in theory, rules cannot be change at all
116 2013-02-17 01:14:49 <alex_fun> sipa well since its open algo
117 2013-02-17 01:14:50 <sipa> alex_fun: as every existing client will reject any block or transaction that doesn't obey all rules, and those rules are very strict
118 2013-02-17 01:15:05 <sipa> however, if everyone decides to switch to another program, of course anything is possible
119 2013-02-17 01:15:08 <alex_fun> what if people modify clients
120 2013-02-17 01:15:09 dabid has joined
121 2013-02-17 01:15:10 <alex_fun> some people
122 2013-02-17 01:15:11 <gmaxwell> I think it's likely that bitcoin is the most widely actually understood distributed consensus algorithim by several orders of magnitude... you're underestimating how much people actually do understand.
123 2013-02-17 01:15:12 <alex_fun> say 10%
124 2013-02-17 01:15:20 <gmaxwell> alex_fun: then they just get ignored.
125 2013-02-17 01:15:42 dabid is now known as bootmii_
126 2013-02-17 01:15:44 <alex_fun> gmaxwell so for example if I set miner do something that is not within consesus
127 2013-02-17 01:15:46 <sipa> alex_fun: they end up in their own happy world, with their own blockchain
128 2013-02-17 01:15:50 <muhoo> money is just a shared consensus ilusion anyway, including fiat money.
129 2013-02-17 01:15:52 <alex_fun> I see
130 2013-02-17 01:16:01 bootmii_ is now known as dabid
131 2013-02-17 01:16:12 <alex_fun> sipa when they are in their chain they also can sent btc to each other
132 2013-02-17 01:16:19 <alex_fun> within that chain
133 2013-02-17 01:16:20 <sipa> yes
134 2013-02-17 01:16:21 <alex_fun> right?
135 2013-02-17 01:16:38 <sipa> and they can - within their chain - spend any coin that existed before the 'split'
136 2013-02-17 01:16:44 <alex_fun> so some can say I sell u btc, open wallet on site xyz.com
137 2013-02-17 01:16:51 <sipa> and that may sound cool, but it would be a disaster, unless it's intentional
138 2013-02-17 01:16:58 <alex_fun> that xyz. site wallet is alt chain wallet
139 2013-02-17 01:17:09 <alex_fun> so person thinks cool nice online wallet
140 2013-02-17 01:17:19 <alex_fun> then alt chain person sends him btc :D
141 2013-02-17 01:17:32 <petertodd> alex_fun: Ask the question, how many people accept litecoin? It's a very similar question to what you are talking about.
142 2013-02-17 01:17:50 <alex_fun> for simple person there is no easy way to know which online wallet provider or say exchange
143 2013-02-17 01:17:57 <alex_fun> belongs to main chain
144 2013-02-17 01:18:04 <alex_fun> some exchgange might use alt chain btc
145 2013-02-17 01:18:09 <muhoo> iirc there's nothing in btc stopping offchain txs.
146 2013-02-17 01:18:17 <alex_fun> petertodd i dont know I say few use it
147 2013-02-17 01:20:03 <Eliel_> alex_fun: anyone can set up a website that pretends to be a bitcoin wallet even without an alt chain.
148 2013-02-17 01:20:28 <alex_fun> Eliel_ yes however then they wont get any btc and start alerting
149 2013-02-17 01:20:36 <alex_fun> however if someone like electrum
150 2013-02-17 01:20:47 <alex_fun> put servers to serve large alt chain :)
151 2013-02-17 01:21:56 <alex_fun> is there some algo that uses only 1 chain
152 2013-02-17 01:22:55 <gmaxwell> this seems OT for #bitcoin-dev
153 2013-02-17 01:23:16 <alex_fun> its a question how btc work
154 2013-02-17 01:23:22 <alex_fun> to understand how it really work
155 2013-02-17 01:23:29 <muhoo> heading that way
156 2013-02-17 01:23:29 <alex_fun> and its limitations
157 2013-02-17 01:25:01 <gmaxwell> alex_fun: Then ask specific technical questions, take economic or social hypothesizing to #bitcoin
158 2013-02-17 01:25:01 <rdponticelli> alex_fun: You have a lot of research to do before even think about going on with your idea....
159 2013-02-17 01:25:35 <alex_fun> gmaxwell I ask if I am using say electrum serves how do I check that they use main chain?
160 2013-02-17 01:25:39 <alex_fun> what do I do?
161 2013-02-17 01:25:44 <alex_fun> *servers
162 2013-02-17 01:25:57 <sipa> if you have that question, you shouldn't be using it
163 2013-02-17 01:26:07 <sipa> the point is that ultimately you trust their server
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165 2013-02-17 01:26:33 <alex_fun> then is technically weak point
166 2013-02-17 01:26:34 <sipa> (though there is some - and increasing - degree of local checking)
167 2013-02-17 01:26:39 <alex_fun> if it relies on trust alone
168 2013-02-17 01:26:59 <sipa> recently they added SPV level verification
169 2013-02-17 01:27:01 bootmii_ has joined
170 2013-02-17 01:27:19 <sipa> so the client can check that the block chain they serve is valid
171 2013-02-17 01:27:25 <alex_fun> cool
172 2013-02-17 01:27:44 <sipa> which doesn't mean it guarantees it's the *right* chain, only a valid one
173 2013-02-17 01:27:57 <sipa> but that is the same sort of guarantee you have with real SPV clients
174 2013-02-17 01:28:09 <sipa> except those connect to random nodes on the network, and not a special server
175 2013-02-17 01:28:16 dabid is now known as Guest75168
176 2013-02-17 01:28:16 bootmii_ is now known as dabid
177 2013-02-17 01:29:25 <Eliel_> alex_fun: if you don't want to have to trust that someone else's server is using the bitcoin blockchain, your only option is to run a full bitcoin node yourself.
178 2013-02-17 01:30:01 <alex_fun> eliel I was thinking if there is a way to make btc and likes even more secure
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180 2013-02-17 01:30:10 <sipa> no need for that
181 2013-02-17 01:30:13 <alex_fun> I found some paper about it however understood only some
182 2013-02-17 01:30:21 <sipa> all guarantee you can get you have in SPV mode
183 2013-02-17 01:30:27 <alex_fun> I am going going to check ripple
184 2013-02-17 01:30:29 <alex_fun> seems nice
185 2013-02-17 01:30:44 <alex_fun> to me p2p currency seems simple in theory and tough in practice :D
186 2013-02-17 01:31:07 <jgarzik> tough in theory and tougher in practice
187 2013-02-17 01:31:34 mloftis has joined
188 2013-02-17 01:31:54 <alex_fun> jgarzik what if there could be a token, whose ownership can be transfered unrevocably with a key?
189 2013-02-17 01:32:06 <sipa> you mean a bitcoin?
190 2013-02-17 01:32:15 <alex_fun> and once key is used its no longer working for party a
191 2013-02-17 01:32:24 <sipa> you mean a bitcoin?
192 2013-02-17 01:32:25 <alex_fun> well I mean something simple
193 2013-02-17 01:32:27 <petertodd> alex_fun: how do you make the key not work?
194 2013-02-17 01:32:38 <gmaxwell> 17:07 < alex_fun> gmaxwell I ask if I am using say electrum serves how do I check that they use main chain?
195 2013-02-17 01:32:50 <alex_fun> petertodd I moment I am thinking
196 2013-02-17 01:32:54 <alex_fun> 1
197 2013-02-17 01:33:12 <gmaxwell> The electrum client software actually checks that it uses the correct chain history, but it can't tell if its on the longest chain because it trusts the server completely.
198 2013-02-17 01:33:52 <sipa> alex_fun: the correct answer is: the only way to make sure a key only works once, is by making sure that everyone rejects the second attempt
199 2013-02-17 01:34:56 <gritcoin> 0.8rc test report (initial sync performance): 2h15m for initial sync on a clean install of windows 0.8.0rc1 build on unremarkable hardware! Nice!
200 2013-02-17 01:35:17 <sipa> i find that very slow, but glad that people are happy :p
201 2013-02-17 01:35:37 <alex_fun> ok I got an idea
202 2013-02-17 01:35:53 <alex_fun> ownership is defined by latest pgp signature
203 2013-02-17 01:35:56 <gritcoin> well, relative change can be a source of happiness :)
204 2013-02-17 01:35:59 <alex_fun> something like that
205 2013-02-17 01:36:02 <sipa> alex_fun: define 'latest'
206 2013-02-17 01:36:12 <gritcoin> 0.7.2 was ~36 hours on same hardware and same net connection.
207 2013-02-17 01:37:09 <petertodd> alex_fun: don't say by timestamping, Satoshi's paper itself calls Bitcoin a timestamping system.
208 2013-02-17 01:37:32 <MobGod> sipa question for you
209 2013-02-17 01:37:42 <alex_fun> for example I make file coin.txt and sign it with public key saying 1, then when I sell to you I sell you private key
210 2013-02-17 01:37:50 <MobGod> does gpgtools when running take up a lot of disk space
211 2013-02-17 01:37:51 <alex_fun> so u can sign coin.tx and say 2
212 2013-02-17 01:38:00 <alex_fun> then its clear more less
213 2013-02-17 01:38:23 <petertodd> Only to those who know tx #2 exists.
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215 2013-02-17 01:38:40 <sipa> MobGod: ?
216 2013-02-17 01:38:45 <sipa> what is gpgtools?
217 2013-02-17 01:38:55 <alex_fun> the private key controls ability to sign ownership, if I sell private key to you would I be able to use it too or not?
218 2013-02-17 01:39:00 <MobGod> one sec
219 2013-02-17 01:39:01 <MobGod> sorry
220 2013-02-17 01:39:11 <alex_fun> tricky :D
221 2013-02-17 01:39:21 <alex_fun> however totally doable
222 2013-02-17 01:39:22 <sipa> alex_fun: you haven't answered to petertodd's remark
223 2013-02-17 01:39:30 <alex_fun> sipa i am thinking
224 2013-02-17 01:39:48 <alex_fun> it takes effort for me to invent from scract
225 2013-02-17 01:39:53 dabid is now known as b00t_
226 2013-02-17 01:39:53 <sipa> alex_fun: 'latest' is not something two spatially distant entities will always agree on
227 2013-02-17 01:39:54 <alex_fun> as I dont know know alot
228 2013-02-17 01:40:04 <sipa> alex_fun: as information takes time to travel
229 2013-02-17 01:40:29 <petertodd> alex_fun: Hundreds of cryptographers have been thinking about this problem too.
230 2013-02-17 01:40:36 <gritcoin> sipa, "[17:18] <@gmaxwell> gritcoin: perhaps nag sipa to put up his charting code." -- I have "some" experience in location estimation for inhomogeneous poisson processes and am planning on working on network hashrate estimate, but don't want to recapitulate existing work.
231 2013-02-17 01:40:40 <alex_fun> ok what if there is only 1 key to unlock and lock, and token can be transfered only when unlocked
232 2013-02-17 01:40:48 <alex_fun> then sale is sale of key
233 2013-02-17 01:41:00 <alex_fun> and key itself have to change its propertied during sale
234 2013-02-17 01:41:02 <sipa> alex_fun: so one entity may hear about one (valid) signature first, and another entity may hear about another valid signature
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236 2013-02-17 01:41:12 <petertodd> alex_fun: How do you determine if the token is locked or unlocked?
237 2013-02-17 01:41:16 <sipa> alex_fun: that is the fundamental problem that bitcoin solves
238 2013-02-17 01:41:22 <sipa> alex_fun: and it's very hard one
239 2013-02-17 01:41:45 <alex_fun> so how does it work with satoshi algo?
240 2013-02-17 01:42:09 <petertodd> sipa: ...and Bitcoin only solves it in the practical sense. PoW is an ugly, yet beautiful, hack.
241 2013-02-17 01:42:20 <petertodd> alex_fun: lol, you don
242 2013-02-17 01:42:25 <petertodd> *don't already know that?
243 2013-02-17 01:42:34 <alex_fun> yes I dont know
244 2013-02-17 01:42:36 <sipa> yes, it solves it by weakening the problem
245 2013-02-17 01:42:54 <petertodd> alex_fun: Go find out before you waste our time any further.
246 2013-02-17 01:42:57 <sipa> alex_fun: you'll need to read more about how bitcoin works then
247 2013-02-17 01:43:06 <alex_fun> i read
248 2013-02-17 01:43:13 <sipa> it's explained in the paper
249 2013-02-17 01:43:19 <alex_fun> it says it solving hash and its generates proof of work
250 2013-02-17 01:43:30 <alex_fun> each pow is = reward
251 2013-02-17 01:43:40 <sipa> not that part
252 2013-02-17 01:43:51 <mloftis> alex_fun: basically you transfer ownership to a new (public) key by signing a transaction that states that. you cannot guarentee someones NOT retained a copy of a private key
253 2013-02-17 01:43:54 <petertodd> alex_fun: The fact that PoW is a reward is not a fundemental part of Bitcoin.
254 2013-02-17 01:44:06 <alex_fun> i know petertodd
255 2013-02-17 01:44:21 <mloftis> alex_fun: so you just assign ownership to a new public key...there's also ways of performing contracts in bitcoin, documentation on such is available on the wiki.
256 2013-02-17 01:44:21 <sipa> gritcoin: not sure if my code will help you that much :)
257 2013-02-17 01:44:22 <alex_fun> mloftis makes sense
258 2013-02-17 01:44:58 <alex_fun> mloftis if there is no guarantee that party a release private key
259 2013-02-17 01:45:02 <alex_fun> then ooo I got it
260 2013-02-17 01:45:12 <alex_fun> the block chain itself is like central bank
261 2013-02-17 01:45:16 <mloftis> alex_fun: yup
262 2013-02-17 01:45:20 <alex_fun> it records transactions in time
263 2013-02-17 01:45:20 <alex_fun> right?
264 2013-02-17 01:45:26 <sipa> not in time
265 2013-02-17 01:45:27 <mloftis> alex_fun: and since all the nodes "Agree" on the longes chain wins.
266 2013-02-17 01:45:30 <alex_fun> yay!
267 2013-02-17 01:45:41 <alex_fun> now I can tell girls in bar how it works :D
268 2013-02-17 01:45:43 <sipa> but it defines an authorative order for otherwise valid transactions
269 2013-02-17 01:45:59 <mloftis> alex_fun: but not in time...more like in sequence for a given ownership transfer chain.
270 2013-02-17 01:46:13 <sipa> such that in the case of two attempted spends of the same coin, people agree on who is the right one
271 2013-02-17 01:46:13 <mloftis> sipa said it better i think LOL
272 2013-02-17 01:46:17 <gritcoin> sipa: Cool, I'll just dive in then :) Already notice that the timestamp variations mean the in-block times can't be used to derive arrival intervals, and the blockchain.info "first_time" in their block inventory is weird as well (lots of inverted arrivals vs. height and multiple blocks with same "first_time" value
273 2013-02-17 01:46:51 <alex_fun> mloftis so when I send 1 btc client looks at all chain to see if I am the latest owner
274 2013-02-17 01:46:56 <alex_fun> and if yes it sends it?
275 2013-02-17 01:47:05 <sipa> gritcoin: i use the block timestamps; those are indeed flexible in a way, but only up to 2 hours
276 2013-02-17 01:47:12 <mloftis> alex_fun: sort of. it knows whats in your wallet because it follows the chain.
277 2013-02-17 01:47:36 <sipa> gritcoin: the idea behind my graphs is this: assume there is a poisson-like process that generates block events
278 2013-02-17 01:47:44 <sipa> gritcoin: hash events, actually
279 2013-02-17 01:47:53 <gritcoin> true enough. And any estimate for time periods less than two hours are going to be pretty meaningless anyway
280 2013-02-17 01:47:54 <alex_fun> and becouse agreed chain is hosted on each client its decentralised
281 2013-02-17 01:47:55 <alex_fun> nice :D
282 2013-02-17 01:47:55 <mloftis> alex_fun: and makes a note when it detects something "given up" (by way of a valid transaction, which ANYONE can verify, by virtue of the way public key crypto works)
283 2013-02-17 01:48:20 <mloftis> I can verify that "yes key A did indeed sign over to key B" as a third party observer,t hats the beauty of public key crypto.
284 2013-02-17 01:48:27 <sipa> gritcoin: however, it's a poisson-like process with a generation rate that itself is an exponential function of time
285 2013-02-17 01:49:04 <mloftis> alex_fun: more to it than that, but thats the basic idea.
286 2013-02-17 01:49:23 <sipa> gritcoin: so at any point in time T, we assume that the hash events before T were generated by a poissoin process whose generation rate was f(t) = A*exp(B*t), for t<T
287 2013-02-17 01:49:27 <gritcoin> sipa: My initial direction is to treat block generation as a doubly stochastic poisson process with a rate function that is a pinned brownian walk (miner offline/online events act as random walk against total hashrate)
288 2013-02-17 01:49:50 <gritcoin> where the pinning values will follow a function like yours
289 2013-02-17 01:49:56 freakazoid_ has joined
290 2013-02-17 01:50:09 <mloftis> alex_fun: the key/trick is that a majority of nodes agree on what is valid, based on an agreed upon set of rules. And transfer of ownership (of a bitcoin) takes place by signing transactions. those transactions are made permanent as they get buried into the block chain.
291 2013-02-17 01:50:19 <gritcoin> with the walk bandpass filtered to match a miner participation model
292 2013-02-17 01:50:52 <sipa> gritcoin: so I derived a way to calculate a maximum-likelyhood estimation for A and B, given the observed hash events (a block event counts as simultaneous D hash events, with D = block difficulty)
293 2013-02-17 01:50:55 <alex_fun> mloftis and how does btc chain sign them?
294 2013-02-17 01:51:01 <gmaxwell> majority of hashpower, subtle differenceâ we can't use 'majority of nodes' because nothing would stop a badguy from spinning up his own fake majority. ... and a majority of nodes doesn't leave a record of their existance nodes in the future can trust.
295 2013-02-17 01:51:07 <alex_fun> i know coins move by solving hash right?
296 2013-02-17 01:51:22 <sipa> alex_fun: transactions have nothing to do with proof of work
297 2013-02-17 01:51:23 <alex_fun> of if I send coin no hash have to be solved for transaction
298 2013-02-17 01:51:29 <alex_fun> sipa ok cool
299 2013-02-17 01:51:38 <alex_fun> so if I send coins to you, how do they travel
300 2013-02-17 01:51:41 <sipa> alex_fun: a transaction is a fully message saying "transfer coin X to new address A"
301 2013-02-17 01:51:44 <sipa> that's all
302 2013-02-17 01:51:50 <sipa> * fully signed
303 2013-02-17 01:51:52 <alex_fun> ok from address to address
304 2013-02-17 01:52:01 <alex_fun> and how are they signed?
305 2013-02-17 01:52:03 <sipa> (that's a major simplification, but it will do for now)
306 2013-02-17 01:52:04 <sipa> ECDSA
307 2013-02-17 01:52:05 <mloftis> alex_fun: miners try to solve a problem, basically, find data to mix in to the list of transactions such that the hash has a specific property...in our case we're looking for a number that falls inside of a given range...we all agree on the range based on the rules of the network.
308 2013-02-17 01:52:11 <sipa> a cryptographic algorithm
309 2013-02-17 01:52:19 <mloftis> alex_fun: thats how PoW goes.
310 2013-02-17 01:52:50 <gritcoin> sipa: very reasonable.
311 2013-02-17 01:52:55 <Zarutian> mloftis: which reminds be of the SAT solver thing
312 2013-02-17 01:52:58 <sipa> alex_fun: if not for the double-spending problem where two people in the world could create simultaneously two different but conflicting valid transactions, that would be the end of the story
313 2013-02-17 01:53:08 <alex_fun> yep
314 2013-02-17 01:53:12 <sipa> alex_fun: but we need a way to authoratively order transactions
315 2013-02-17 01:53:18 <sipa> and that is what the block chain does
316 2013-02-17 01:53:33 <sipa> it's just an ordered list of transactions, grouped together in blocks
317 2013-02-17 01:53:39 <sipa> with each block referring to a previous block
318 2013-02-17 01:53:54 <sipa> and since it's hard to make a block, we can control how quickly they are generated
319 2013-02-17 01:54:08 <alex_fun> so address that sold 10 coins is minus 10 coins right?
320 2013-02-17 01:54:11 <alex_fun> in the chain
321 2013-02-17 01:54:18 <alex_fun> and address that got 10 coins is plus 10
322 2013-02-17 01:54:28 <sipa> yes, but in practice that's not how it works
323 2013-02-17 01:54:35 <alex_fun> like basic double entry bookkeeping bases on blokchain
324 2013-02-17 01:54:37 <sipa> the system doesn't keep track of a balance per address
325 2013-02-17 01:54:37 wizkid057 has joined
326 2013-02-17 01:54:49 <sipa> a transaction consumes coins, and produces coins
327 2013-02-17 01:54:54 <sipa> and a coin is either spent or unspent
328 2013-02-17 01:55:00 <alex_fun> hmm I though I am sending btc from address
329 2013-02-17 01:55:05 <sipa> never something in between
330 2013-02-17 01:55:14 <alex_fun> yes double entry
331 2013-02-17 01:55:16 <sipa> yes, that's the abstraction the wallet software provides
332 2013-02-17 01:55:18 <alex_fun> debit credit
333 2013-02-17 01:55:22 <sipa> but it's not how it works internally
334 2013-02-17 01:55:46 <alex_fun> ok so internally how does block chain identifies me as holder of say 100 btc?
335 2013-02-17 01:55:49 <Zarutian> can other things, not fungible or dividable, be transfered in this way? (titles, and other such stuff)
336 2013-02-17 01:56:05 <mloftis> alex_fun: it doesn't ... the wallet has to walk the chain to find that out.
337 2013-02-17 01:56:27 <alex_fun> Zarutian yes provided it does not require gov approval to transfer owndership
338 2013-02-17 01:56:28 <sipa> alex_fun: if the chain defines a transaction with a 100 BTC output coin to you, and no transaction that consumes it afterwards
339 2013-02-17 01:56:30 <alex_fun> say house or car
340 2013-02-17 01:56:42 <alex_fun> sipa makes sense
341 2013-02-17 01:56:54 <alex_fun> what is my ultimate identifier in chain?
342 2013-02-17 01:56:55 <alex_fun> IP?
343 2013-02-17 01:56:56 <alex_fun> key?
344 2013-02-17 01:57:00 <sipa> address
345 2013-02-17 01:57:09 <sipa> which is the hash of a public key
346 2013-02-17 01:57:29 alex_fun has quit ()
347 2013-02-17 01:57:35 <sipa> gritcoin: i use an exponential window to measure the data the MLE algorithm uses to calculate A and B
348 2013-02-17 01:57:40 <sipa> which varying with
349 2013-02-17 01:57:55 <sipa> gritcoin: turns out, this becomes almost trivial formulas
350 2013-02-17 01:58:08 <gritcoin> And the varying width generates the different windows for the plots?
351 2013-02-17 01:58:18 <sipa> correct
352 2013-02-17 01:58:38 <gritcoin> k
353 2013-02-17 01:59:16 <gritcoin> Very succinct summary; I appreciate it.
354 2013-02-17 01:59:23 <muhoo> addresses, pliral
355 2013-02-17 01:59:24 <sipa> so, what you need to measure is: N = the number of events (weighted by the exponential window)
356 2013-02-17 01:59:34 agricocb has joined
357 2013-02-17 01:59:38 <Zarutian> alex_fun: I was thinking about UUIDs that smart electronic locks that listen to the bitcoin node network look for. Basicly a lock looks for which public key is the *holder* of the uuid and opens when the corrisponding private key signs a challange from the lock.
358 2013-02-17 01:59:42 <sipa> and T, the average time since each event
359 2013-02-17 02:01:09 <sipa> gritcoin: the window function is t->exp((t-T)/Tau)/Tau, with t<T
360 2013-02-17 02:01:43 <sipa> gritcoin: and the assumed hashrate function is t->A*exp(B*(t-T)/Tau)
361 2013-02-17 02:01:55 <sipa> (Tau = exponential window size)
362 2013-02-17 02:02:05 <Zarutian> (basicly abusing the blockchain to be an updateable ACL where the subjects are addresses and the objects are UUIDs)
363 2013-02-17 02:02:15 <gritcoin> right
364 2013-02-17 02:02:36 <sipa> gritcoin: and T is the average time since each event, measured in units of Tau
365 2013-02-17 02:02:50 <sipa> wait, i'm using T is two different meanings
366 2013-02-17 02:03:15 <sipa> call the average time since each event, measured in units of Tau: A
367 2013-02-17 02:04:02 <mloftis> Zarutian: one of the only issues i see with that is if several changes are made before a block or blocks happen. until somethings solidified into the block chain it's really just indicating "intent"
368 2013-02-17 02:04:17 <sipa> so A=3 N=5 would mean you've seen 5 hash events in your window, and their average time is T-3*Tau
369 2013-02-17 02:04:20 <sipa> gritcoin: ok?
370 2013-02-17 02:04:45 <mloftis> Zarutian: the netowrk can lose or forget about a transaction that doesn't make it into the block chain...at least in theory...idk if this happens in practice once a transaction gets relayed.
371 2013-02-17 02:04:56 <gritcoin> Yep
372 2013-02-17 02:05:07 alex_fun has joined
373 2013-02-17 02:05:19 <alex_fun> win updates restart happen
374 2013-02-17 02:05:20 <alex_fun> :)
375 2013-02-17 02:05:26 <Zarutian> mloftis: that is an issue I do not know how to resolve
376 2013-02-17 02:05:29 <sipa> gritcoin: grr, and now i'm using A with two meanings
377 2013-02-17 02:05:39 <gritcoin> yeah I see that :) but I follow
378 2013-02-17 02:05:54 <sipa> i'll call the average age just Age
379 2013-02-17 02:06:15 <gritcoin> a/b as mle parameters for hashrate function vs. a as mean T
380 2013-02-17 02:06:29 <sipa> ok, so in that case: A = N/Age, B = 1/Age - 1
381 2013-02-17 02:06:33 <alex_fun> I disconnect when I asked what is the core identifier between wallet.dat and chain?
382 2013-02-17 02:06:38 <mloftis> Zarutian: yeah idk if ya really can within bitcoin. in reality nothing is absolutely certain...just more and more sure :) it's ALL probabilities of some sort... gritcoin and sipa there I'm sure have a better term for it ... they seem to be the resident stats at the moment.
383 2013-02-17 02:06:49 <Zarutian> mloftis: block-timed activation of changes? that is such an transaction would say, "I am not to be acted upon until I am x deep in the block chain"
384 2013-02-17 02:07:10 <alex_fun> Zarutian you talking about contracts right?
385 2013-02-17 02:07:23 <sipa> gritcoin: so this gives you, for a given window ending at a certain timestamp, an estimated hashrate function
386 2013-02-17 02:07:45 <gritcoin> nice, yeah, that is quite clean
387 2013-02-17 02:07:46 <Zarutian> alex_fun: not yet. Only the stuff that contract might be able to be about.
388 2013-02-17 02:07:47 <sipa> gritcoin: and you use that hashrate function to 'extrapolate' to the current time, resulting in a guess for the current hash rat
389 2013-02-17 02:07:55 <mloftis> Zarutian: yeah and thats how most implementations work now, see a certain # of confirmations, IE a block plus N blocks behind it/built on it.
390 2013-02-17 02:08:12 <sipa> gritcoin: and if you do the math, the result is the current estimated hashrate (at t=T) is N/Age
391 2013-02-17 02:09:02 <Zarutian> mloftis: twenty minutes wait when houses/cars are traded might be toleratable
392 2013-02-17 02:09:12 <alex_fun> mloftis what is the identifier inside block.dat ?
393 2013-02-17 02:09:17 <alex_fun> the one chain uses
394 2013-02-17 02:09:22 <gritcoin> right, which is actually the MLE of stationary poisson process with average rate N/Age -- but you have additionally constructed a rate function for extrapolation
395 2013-02-17 02:09:27 <alex_fun> the rest I understand already :D
396 2013-02-17 02:10:06 <mloftis> alex_fun: IDK about any of the on disk stuff with bitcoind, I've avoided it. It has been painful enough trying to understand the serialization of the protocol and blocks LOL
397 2013-02-17 02:10:23 <alex_fun> lol
398 2013-02-17 02:10:28 <alex_fun> ty
399 2013-02-17 02:10:46 <mloftis> alex_fun: each block though is identified by the merkle root.
400 2013-02-17 02:13:16 <sipa> gritcoin: right, exactly
401 2013-02-17 02:13:24 <sipa> gritcoin: though i only use it at one point
402 2013-02-17 02:13:33 <gritcoin> right
403 2013-02-17 02:16:07 freakazoid_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
404 2013-02-17 02:18:24 FellowTraveler has joined
405 2013-02-17 02:19:14 serp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
406 2013-02-17 02:19:27 <gritcoin> sipa, http://www.columbia.edu/~ww2040/rate.pdf is a very similar approach but assuming a rate function which is piecewise linear
407 2013-02-17 02:20:32 kytv has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
408 2013-02-17 02:20:51 <gritcoin> they have some good discussion about how to choose the size and number of measurement intervals (they also differ in that the are using a square window)
409 2013-02-17 02:22:13 <dhill> so i guess i can't get bitcoind to crash anymore. hrm. pretty sure it is a lock/thread issue.
410 2013-02-17 02:22:22 toffoo has quit ()
411 2013-02-17 02:22:47 <dhill> slowing it down has resulted in no crashes today.
412 2013-02-17 02:24:13 kytv has joined
413 2013-02-17 02:25:25 <FellowTraveler> Hi all, just FYI, I'm in San Fran tonight for one night only. I won't be online so there'll be no way to reach me. But I'll be in the city, walking among you.
414 2013-02-17 02:26:17 <gmaxwell> Why do you assume that anyone here is in San Fran? Or do you just mean that you'll be on earth among us? :P
415 2013-02-17 02:26:33 <Luke-Jr> lol
416 2013-02-17 02:27:03 <SomeoneWeird> lol
417 2013-02-17 02:27:13 serp has joined
418 2013-02-17 02:27:13 serp has quit (Changing host)
419 2013-02-17 02:27:13 serp has joined
420 2013-02-17 02:31:32 <FellowTraveler> FYI, most of you are in the Bay area.
421 2013-02-17 02:32:00 <Luke-Jr> FellowTraveler: I'm not sure anyone is O.o
422 2013-02-17 02:32:42 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I am, though I'm not in sanfran. But I believe I am the only regular talker in here who is.
423 2013-02-17 02:32:53 <sipa> most of me is in Europe
424 2013-02-17 02:33:04 <Luke-Jr> sipa: only most of you? O.o
425 2013-02-17 02:33:13 <FellowTraveler> Some of you are in Langley.
426 2013-02-17 02:33:17 <gmaxwell> He left his heart in san francisco.
427 2013-02-17 02:33:22 clr__ has joined
428 2013-02-17 02:33:26 <Luke-Jr> shocking revelation: sipa is a distributed AI bot
429 2013-02-17 02:33:31 clr__ is now known as c00w
430 2013-02-17 02:33:52 <sipa> there's an unconscious part that's hard to account for
431 2013-02-17 02:33:54 <petertodd> not so shocking relevation: even advanced AI bots think the speed of light sucks
432 2013-02-17 02:34:00 c00w is now known as Guest51272
433 2013-02-17 02:35:17 <gritcoin> this is why AI bots are making line of sight tunnels being dug between Paris, New Jersey, San Francisco, LA, and Tokyo as we speak...
434 2013-02-17 02:35:56 <gmaxwell> well, the san fran, nj one they'll need to get the burritos out of first.
435 2013-02-17 02:36:00 <gmaxwell> ( http://idlewords.com/2007/04/the_alameda-weehawken_burrito_tunnel.htm )
436 2013-02-17 02:36:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ha, I was just about to post that...
437 2013-02-17 02:36:23 clr_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
438 2013-02-17 02:36:47 yellowhat has quit (Quit: yellowhat)
439 2013-02-17 02:36:49 <gritcoin> traffic shaping algorithms still ineffective on refried beans :(
440 2013-02-17 02:37:25 <petertodd> maybe the burritos are stuff with usb keys for data that can handle high-latency?
441 2013-02-17 02:37:53 <gmaxwell> petertodd: gotta watch the magnetic permeability...
442 2013-02-17 02:39:15 <petertodd> gmaxwell: The AI's are keeping their advances in non-magnetic media a secret, to let us think we can still stop them.
443 2013-02-17 02:39:25 FellowTraveler has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
444 2013-02-17 02:39:28 FellowTraveler1 has joined
445 2013-02-17 02:40:14 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
446 2013-02-17 02:40:45 <gmaxwell> I haven't yet seen anyone propose watching out for powerful AIs by looking for evidence of major obvious AI wishlist projects. Funny thought.
447 2013-02-17 02:41:23 <petertodd> Bitcoin would be one of the first items on such a list after all...
448 2013-02-17 02:41:41 <petertodd> ...and wide-spread remote attesting TPM's.
449 2013-02-17 02:42:05 <petertodd> The EFF needs a new marketing campaign advocating banning TPM's to save humanity from robotic enslavement.
450 2013-02-17 02:42:52 <gmaxwell> Satoshi explained.
451 2013-02-17 02:44:05 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
452 2013-02-17 02:47:33 <petertodd> (Before I mislead anyone reading us ramble... USB keys are based on flash technology, which stores data as electric fields; they can't actually be damaged by magnetic fields, and we have no super-weapon to defeat the AI's.)
453 2013-02-17 02:48:14 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you're just hoping that the AIs won't lobotomize you to prevent knoweldge of the super-weapon from spreading.
454 2013-02-17 02:48:54 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ...and Canada has the cool average temperatures they need.
455 2013-02-17 02:52:23 <alex_fun> petertodd u know in russia asteroid impact
456 2013-02-17 02:52:31 <alex_fun> so sometimes also pc can be fried
457 2013-02-17 02:52:34 <alex_fun> with stuff
458 2013-02-17 02:52:38 <alex_fun> AI nets
459 2013-02-17 02:52:40 <alex_fun> :)
460 2013-02-17 02:52:56 <alex_fun> I watched futurama
461 2013-02-17 02:52:56 <alex_fun> :)
462 2013-02-17 02:53:40 robocoin has quit (Quit: >'_')>~(\\\)
463 2013-02-17 02:54:39 denisx has joined
464 2013-02-17 02:55:31 Guest51272 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
465 2013-02-17 03:03:10 na_ has joined
466 2013-02-17 03:04:21 raad287 has joined
467 2013-02-17 03:09:09 warren has joined
468 2013-02-17 03:09:22 <warren> Hi, I get this when I try to run bitcoin 0.8 rc1 on a fresh install of Fedora 18 x86_64
469 2013-02-17 03:09:24 <warren> [bitcoin@box 64]$ ./bitcoind
470 2013-02-17 03:09:25 <warren> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::length_error'
471 2013-02-17 03:09:25 <warren> what(): basic_string::_S_create
472 2013-02-17 03:09:25 <warren> Aborted
473 2013-02-17 03:09:29 <warren> Any suggestions?
474 2013-02-17 03:09:31 <alex_fun> yes
475 2013-02-17 03:09:35 e0s_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
476 2013-02-17 03:09:36 eoss has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
477 2013-02-17 03:09:36 <alex_fun> send wallet.datr
478 2013-02-17 03:09:41 <alex_fun> and I can try it here :D
479 2013-02-17 03:09:48 <warren> yessir
480 2013-02-17 03:10:30 <alex_fun> i can send u mine
481 2013-02-17 03:10:30 <alex_fun> :D
482 2013-02-17 03:10:32 <alex_fun> lol
483 2013-02-17 03:12:37 b4tt3r135 has joined
484 2013-02-17 03:19:52 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
485 2013-02-17 03:20:54 gritcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
486 2013-02-17 03:26:35 Z0rZ0rZ0r has quit (Quit: Wheeeee)
487 2013-02-17 03:27:07 <Luke-Jr> warren: never send someone a wallet.dat if you've ever used it, unless you trust that person with all your future income
488 2013-02-17 03:27:19 <warren> Luke-Jr: doh!
489 2013-02-17 03:27:29 <warren> Luke-Jr: I know he's screwing with me.
490 2013-02-17 03:27:41 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: don't do that.
491 2013-02-17 03:28:06 <Luke-Jr> warren: where did you get the bitcoin from?
492 2013-02-17 03:28:29 <alex_fun> :)))
493 2013-02-17 03:28:48 <warren> Luke-Jr: there's no coins on this account, I just upgraded from fedora 16 to fedora 18, moved my /home over, and bitcoin-0.8 rc1 crashes when I try bitcoind
494 2013-02-17 03:29:00 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: doing crap like that is asking for a ban
495 2013-02-17 03:29:26 <Luke-Jr> warren: we don't have Fedora packages. Where did your program come from?
496 2013-02-17 03:29:42 <Luke-Jr> warren: also, did you ensure the old version shutdown cleanly?
497 2013-02-17 03:29:47 <warren> Luke-Jr: I'm using the 0.8 rc1 linux build from the thread
498 2013-02-17 03:30:02 <warren> Luke-Jr: it crashed
499 2013-02-17 03:30:10 <warren> I was running 0.8 rc1 before the server died
500 2013-02-17 03:32:03 <Luke-Jr> warren: I'm guessing it's an ABI incompatibility
501 2013-02-17 03:32:46 <warren> Luke-Jr: that's what I thought, but this error message is typically not that
502 2013-02-17 03:33:03 <warren> Luke-Jr: I guess the crashing server left an inconsistent leveldb?
503 2013-02-17 03:33:21 <Luke-Jr> the message you gave tells me nothing useful
504 2013-02-17 03:33:46 <warren> It's on a server with a ton of bandwidth, if you want to download my db files to attempt a debug
505 2013-02-17 03:34:16 Goonie has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
506 2013-02-17 03:34:35 <gmaxwell> warren: the message you're pasting sounds like a boost or libc++ ABI incompatiblity.
507 2013-02-17 03:34:48 <gmaxwell> It probably doesn't have anything to do with the database.
508 2013-02-17 03:34:56 <warren> gmaxwell: that's what I thought, but the same binary works on my Fedora 18 x86_64 laptop
509 2013-02-17 03:34:57 <gmaxwell> It may mean that our binaries will not work on Fedora 18.
510 2013-02-17 03:35:03 <gmaxwell> hm!
511 2013-02-17 03:35:13 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: which is odd, since those binaries are supposed to be static
512 2013-02-17 03:35:56 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: oh right, I forgot that.
513 2013-02-17 03:36:29 <warren> I'll make a backup copy of the db's
514 2013-02-17 03:36:32 <Luke-Jr> assuming it came from gitian..
515 2013-02-17 03:36:39 <Luke-Jr> warren: can you provide the exact link you downloaded?
516 2013-02-17 03:36:43 <warren> uh....
517 2013-02-17 03:36:52 <warren> hold
518 2013-02-17 03:37:23 b4tt3r135 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
519 2013-02-17 03:37:32 <warren> wget http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/bitcoin/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/test/bitcoin-0.8.0rc1-linux.tar.gz?r=http%3A%2F%2Fsourceforge.net%2Fprojects%2Fbitcoin%2Ffiles%2FBitcoin%2Fbitcoin-0.8.0%2Ftest%2F&ts=1360974942&use_mirror=superb-dca3
520 2013-02-17 03:39:48 <warren> that's in my .bash_history
521 2013-02-17 03:40:13 <Luke-Jr> k, just checking..
522 2013-02-17 03:40:32 alex_fun has left ()
523 2013-02-17 03:40:55 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: so, it uses the system libstdc++, so that still doesn't rule out binary incompatiblity. But that wouldn't explain the laptop vs desktop results.
524 2013-02-17 03:41:22 <gmaxwell> warren: whats at the end of your debug.log?
525 2013-02-17 03:41:54 <warren> Bound to 0.0.0.0:8333
526 2013-02-17 03:41:55 <warren> init message: Loading block index...
527 2013-02-17 03:41:55 <warren> Opening LevelDB in /home/bitcoin/.bitcoin/blocks/index
528 2013-02-17 03:41:55 <warren> Opened LevelDB successfully
529 2013-02-17 03:41:55 <warren> Opening LevelDB in /home/bitcoin/.bitcoin/chainstate
530 2013-02-17 03:41:55 <warren> Opened LevelDB successfully
531 2013-02-17 03:42:25 <gmaxwell> thats it?
532 2013-02-17 03:42:27 <Luke-Jr> warren: got gdb?
533 2013-02-17 03:47:06 <warren> yeah, that's the bottom of the log
534 2013-02-17 03:47:08 <warren> Luke-Jr: yeah
535 2013-02-17 03:47:12 <warren> doing several things at once =(
536 2013-02-17 03:47:18 <warren> want to download the db?
537 2013-02-17 03:47:48 <Luke-Jr> no
538 2013-02-17 03:47:56 <gmaxwell> we want a backtrace of the valure.
539 2013-02-17 03:48:10 <gmaxwell> or failure, as the case may be.
540 2013-02-17 03:48:49 <warren> i assume that static bulid has all the symbols
541 2013-02-17 03:49:25 <warren> hold
542 2013-02-17 03:50:08 <warren> Reading symbols from /home/bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0rc1-linux/bin/64/bitcoind...(no debugging symbols found)...done.
543 2013-02-17 03:50:10 <warren> that's not encouraging
544 2013-02-17 03:50:13 zooko has joined
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549 2013-02-17 03:54:48 <jgarzik> warren: odd. on Fedora I hope? My makefile.unix is simply
550 2013-02-17 03:54:50 <jgarzik> -USE_UPNP:=0
551 2013-02-17 03:54:50 <jgarzik> +#USE_UPNP:=0
552 2013-02-17 03:54:50 <jgarzik> USE_IPV6:=1
553 2013-02-17 03:54:50 <jgarzik> +BOOST_LIB_SUFFIX = -mt
554 2013-02-17 03:55:12 <warren> jgarzik: Fedora 18 x86_64
555 2013-02-17 03:55:15 <jgarzik> warren: and I personally rebuild openssl to add -DPURIFY and un-hobble ecdsa
556 2013-02-17 03:55:29 <warren> jgarzik: I think the db got corrupted on the previous crash. same bitcoind 0.8 rc1 before and after.
557 2013-02-17 03:55:41 <warren> jgarzik: I'm using the static 0.8 rc1 build
558 2013-02-17 03:56:11 <jgarzik> warren: shamefully, I'm still F17 here
559 2013-02-17 03:56:12 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: $ BOOST_LIB_SUFFIX='-mt' make -j4 -f makefile.unix bitcoind USE_UPNP=
560 2013-02-17 03:56:13 fiesh has joined
561 2013-02-17 03:56:14 <warren> havne't used gdb ina few years, what's the command to backtrace all threads?
562 2013-02-17 03:56:17 <gmaxwell> is easier than editing the file.
563 2013-02-17 03:56:22 <gmaxwell> warren: bt
564 2013-02-17 03:56:33 <warren> that's only one thread, I think
565 2013-02-17 03:57:16 <gmaxwell> warren: you should be in the right one when it breaks on its own, to get all the threads its thread apply all bt
566 2013-02-17 03:57:19 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: "info threads" ; "thread $N" - change to current thread ; "bt" as you're familiar with
567 2013-02-17 03:57:23 <jgarzik> er
568 2013-02-17 03:57:24 <jgarzik> warren: ^
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570 2013-02-17 03:58:21 <warren> you should make bitcoind print its version somewhere
571 2013-02-17 03:58:28 <warren> any preferred pastebin?
572 2013-02-17 03:59:26 <jgarzik> it prints via 'getinfo' and top of debug.log
573 2013-02-17 03:59:58 <jgarzik> any pastebin that supports 'raw' mode including pastebin.com I presume, but that's just me
574 2013-02-17 04:01:03 <warren> http://pastebin.com/ZJEUAn7v
575 2013-02-17 04:01:40 <warren> please give me a build with debug symbols if you want a full backtrace
576 2013-02-17 04:01:49 <warren> static build
577 2013-02-17 04:02:53 <gmaxwell> I believe the unstripped binary is like 60 megabytes, alasâ so yea, not going to be making that the primary download. :)
578 2013-02-17 04:04:30 <warren> In other news, I began mining with a Radeon for the first time today. I earned 20 cents. I suppose this is the last week that's possible. =)
579 2013-02-17 04:05:12 clr_ has joined
580 2013-02-17 04:05:31 <warren> OK fine... I'm attempting to make my own build. I rather have this bug fixed while I have the database that triggers it.
581 2013-02-17 04:06:06 <warren> jgarzik: got a list of fedora build deps so I don't have to trial and error?
582 2013-02-17 04:06:14 <warren> jgarzik: and why hasn't anyone packaged it for fedora?
583 2013-02-17 04:06:18 clr_ is now known as c00w
584 2013-02-17 04:06:23 <jgarzik> warren: ecdsa
585 2013-02-17 04:06:27 <gmaxwell> because it's not compatible with the fedora openssl rpm.
586 2013-02-17 04:06:59 <warren> jgarzik: patent or something?
587 2013-02-17 04:07:05 <gmaxwell> warren: there isn't really much, you need boost-devel and the qt4 development package. And you need to replace the fedora openssl rpm.
588 2013-02-17 04:07:15 <warren> replace? =(
589 2013-02-17 04:07:34 freakazoid_ has joined
590 2013-02-17 04:07:37 <warren> gmaxwell: how about the static build, is there a script that will download all the source?
591 2013-02-17 04:08:14 <gmaxwell> warren: not related to anything we useâ there are some patents related to ecc stuff that bitcoin doesn't use (on performance optimizations for binary fields). And openssl doesn't distinguish the non-patented and potentially patented stuff, so redhat disables _all_ of it.
592 2013-02-17 04:08:14 <jgarzik> warren: IMO hack of fedora's srpm was easiest and quickest
593 2013-02-17 04:08:39 <gmaxwell> warren: our build process is entirely determinstic, you can programatically reproduce the exact bit identical binary.
594 2013-02-17 04:08:46 <gmaxwell> ... but you need to run ubuntu to do it.
595 2013-02-17 04:08:48 <warren> I see.
596 2013-02-17 04:09:35 <gmaxwell> warren: I have modified SRPMs here: http://people.xiph.org/~greg/openssl/ but as you can see I haven't done F18 yet, but you can copy my changes from the spec, it's a pretty simple change.
597 2013-02-17 04:09:58 <gmaxwell> (replace the tar with the upstream one, remove the hobble script, add the -DPURIFY define ... so that it's possible to valgrind things that link to openssl)
598 2013-02-17 04:10:27 <warren> ugh... I'm short on time today.
599 2013-02-17 04:10:46 <warren> I'll just keep a copy of this db and try this later.
600 2013-02-17 04:11:09 <Luke-Jr> warren: thr app all bt
601 2013-02-17 04:11:22 <warren> Luke-Jr: you want that now?
602 2013-02-17 04:11:31 <Luke-Jr> that's how to get a backtrace of all threads
603 2013-02-17 04:12:46 <dhill> 02/17/13 03:53:58 Verifying last 2500 blocks at level 1
604 2013-02-17 04:12:46 <dhill> 02/17/13 03:53:59 ERROR: CheckBlock() : hashMerkleRoot mismatch
605 2013-02-17 04:12:46 <dhill> 02/17/13 03:53:59 LoadBlockIndex() : *** found bad block at 170614, hash=000000000000053f459fe2d50c0fdb4ddbc0e72e94aca38c2a331992e2c62cae
606 2013-02-17 04:12:49 <dhill> 02/17/13 03:54:02 ERROR: CTransaction::CheckTransaction() : txout.nValue too high
607 2013-02-17 04:12:52 <dhill> 02/17/13 03:54:02 ERROR: CheckBlock() : CheckTransaction failed
608 2013-02-17 04:12:54 <dhill> 02/17/13 03:54:02 LoadBlockIndex() : *** found bad block at 169280, hash=0000000000000659398b8207666d6329e6b31614d24206c7ea76af3f019358d5
609 2013-02-17 04:12:58 <dhill> 02/17/13 03:54:02 ERROR: bool CBlock::ReadFromDisk(unsigned int, unsigned int, bool)() : deserialize or I/O error
610 2013-02-17 04:13:01 <dhill> finally
611 2013-02-17 04:17:36 <warren> The crash goes away when I delete .bitcoin/blocks/index/*
612 2013-02-17 04:21:33 <gmaxwell> warren: uh .. well it would have been good to try -reindex first. :(
613 2013-02-17 04:22:58 <warren> gmaxwell: I still have a copy, i'll try now
614 2013-02-17 04:23:06 <Luke-Jr> :/
615 2013-02-17 04:23:14 <Luke-Jr> I thought LevelDB was supposed to not have these crazy problems
616 2013-02-17 04:24:40 <warren> gmaxwell: yeah, -reindex managed to skip the crash
617 2013-02-17 04:25:31 <warren> you sure you don't want this blocks dir? only a 6.3GB download =)
618 2013-02-17 04:25:42 <warren> I have to leave soon
619 2013-02-17 04:26:50 <Luke-Jr> "only"
620 2013-02-17 04:28:35 LargoG has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
621 2013-02-17 04:32:51 <warren> BINGO
622 2013-02-17 04:33:13 <warren> It crashes with all blocks/* deleted if I leave blocks/index/* intact
623 2013-02-17 04:33:14 <warren> want that?
624 2013-02-17 04:33:39 <Luke-Jr> â¦
625 2013-02-17 04:34:34 BlackPrapor has joined
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627 2013-02-17 04:36:58 <warren> http://mirror.ancl.hawaii.edu/~warren/temp/corruptedindex.tar 212MB
628 2013-02-17 04:37:58 nyusternie has quit (Quit: Leaving)
629 2013-02-17 04:43:03 <warren> anyone want that? I want to delete it soon.
630 2013-02-17 05:02:32 FellowTraveler1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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639 2013-02-17 05:28:28 <dhill> hate races
640 2013-02-17 05:29:59 freewil has joined
641 2013-02-17 05:30:02 ivan\ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
642 2013-02-17 05:32:01 <dhill> kill -TERM doesn't even do a clean shutdown.. crashes in boost :|
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656 2013-02-17 06:05:07 <SomeoneWeird> http://pcottle.github.com/learnGitBranching/
657 2013-02-17 06:07:52 <warren> i'm back
658 2013-02-17 06:08:31 <warren> Luke-Jr, jgarzik, gmaxwell: Ah, one more detail that might be important. I was running with txindex=1 and the server crashed, which left the index in that state.
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679 2013-02-17 08:05:10 <FellowTraveler> alright I'm back in my hotel, I had a pleasant evening with some of you. I now bid the rest good night.
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692 2013-02-17 09:02:10 <Varan> I have run bitcoin using -txindex and now it is syncing the blockchain... but when i try to do a gettransaction over json rpc using a tx hash from a getblock call it gives a empty error response
693 2013-02-17 09:02:17 <Varan> what could be the problem?
694 2013-02-17 09:04:00 <gmaxwell> Varan: gettransaction is for querying the wallet.
695 2013-02-17 09:04:13 <gmaxwell> It will not return anything for non wallet transactions.
696 2013-02-17 09:04:31 <gmaxwell> You probably want getrawtransaction (and probably with the optional verbose decode flag)
697 2013-02-17 09:04:38 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
698 2013-02-17 09:06:06 <Varan> owke
699 2013-02-17 09:06:22 <Varan> I thought getrawtransaction would return binary data
700 2013-02-17 09:06:56 RBecker is now known as rbecker
701 2013-02-17 09:06:58 HM has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
702 2013-02-17 09:09:27 <Luke-Jr> Varan: hence the verbose decode flag gmaxwell suggested
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704 2013-02-17 09:09:47 <Varan> owke
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708 2013-02-17 09:12:45 <Varan> and the txid should be the hash of the tx?
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714 2013-02-17 09:25:57 <Varan> It does not seem to work for getrawtransaction either. ... can call this for any transaction?
715 2013-02-17 09:34:34 <gmaxwell> It can and will with txindex set (assuming there aren't bugs in txindex).
716 2013-02-17 09:34:44 <gmaxwell> what transaction are you trying to fetch?
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720 2013-02-17 09:39:56 <Varan> I did getblockhash(0) and using that hash I did getblock(hash) then I got the tx hash from that block and did getrawtransaction(hash)
721 2013-02-17 09:40:08 <Varan> It returned an empty error
722 2013-02-17 09:41:31 <gmaxwell> lol
723 2013-02-17 09:41:35 <Varan> Maybe it's because bitcoin is still syncing
724 2013-02-17 09:41:36 <gmaxwell> You are awesom.
725 2013-02-17 09:41:40 <gmaxwell> er awesome.
726 2013-02-17 09:41:58 <gmaxwell> There is one transaction in the history of bitcoin which is not in the txindex, because its not spendable.
727 2013-02-17 09:42:06 <Varan> owke
728 2013-02-17 09:42:13 <gmaxwell> And that oneâ the coin generated in block 0â is the one you tried looking at.
729 2013-02-17 09:42:14 <Varan> so it should work for the one in block 1 ? :P
730 2013-02-17 09:42:17 <gmaxwell> yes.
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732 2013-02-17 09:42:23 <Varan> oke ill try
733 2013-02-17 09:42:53 <Varan> works
734 2013-02-17 09:43:15 <Varan> But why dont I get a decent error when something goes wrong in json rpc
735 2013-02-17 09:43:31 <Varan> It seems it doesn't do that anywhere
736 2013-02-17 09:44:35 <Varan> But I assume this is by design that it doesn't work for the first transaction?
737 2013-02-17 09:44:35 <gmaxwell> Varan: what to you expect in this case? the transaction isn't in the index so it gives you the empty result.
738 2013-02-17 09:44:58 <gmaxwell> Yes. The first transaction doesn't really exist. Its in the block but it can never be spent.
739 2013-02-17 09:45:08 <Varan> owke
740 2013-02-17 09:45:16 <Varan> but it gives an json error
741 2013-02-17 09:45:28 <Varan> why not put in the error ... we could not find this tx
742 2013-02-17 09:46:32 <Varan> Now I see this: http://pastebin.com/JGPX0cG3
743 2013-02-17 09:46:34 <gmaxwell> bitcoind getrawtransaction 4a5e1e4baab89f3a32518a88c31bc87f618f76673e2cc77ab2127b7afdeda33b
744 2013-02-17 09:46:37 <gmaxwell> error: {"code":-5,"message":"No information available about transaction"}
745 2013-02-17 09:46:45 <Varan> hmm owke
746 2013-02-17 09:47:30 <Varan> It seems then that there is something work with the jsonrpc lib
747 2013-02-17 09:49:08 <Varan> Anyway ... thanks for the help..
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813 2013-02-17 13:45:38 <SomeoneWeird> http://pcottle.github.com/learnGitBranching/
814 2013-02-17 13:45:46 <SomeoneWeird> just incase someone didn't see it before :)
815 2013-02-17 13:48:48 <stick`> what an awful design :)
816 2013-02-17 13:51:30 <SomeoneWeird> ?
817 2013-02-17 13:51:33 <SomeoneWeird> it's pretty awesome
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870 2013-02-17 17:06:01 <ProfMac> I dropped wallet.dat from the reference client into blockchain.info. I created two new addresses, one with the reference client, and one on the blockchain.info web site. Now I want each of these interfaces to know about both new addresses. What are my options?
871 2013-02-17 17:06:56 <sipa> export the private key from both, and import it in the other
872 2013-02-17 17:09:56 Joric has quit ()
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878 2013-02-17 17:17:57 <jgarzik> huh
879 2013-02-17 17:18:06 <jgarzik> MtGox sent me a free Yubikey coupon
880 2013-02-17 17:24:30 quijibo has quit ()
881 2013-02-17 17:24:39 <jrmithdobbs> send me a neo to play with and i'll send you a couple classics that haven't even been opened ;p
882 2013-02-17 17:24:59 <TD> jgarzik: cool. get it. using mtgox without a second factor is not a good idea
883 2013-02-17 17:25:51 * jgarzik isn't terribly concerned... I never keep money at MtGox (or any other exchange), and excl. bitcoin, it is always kept two hops away from MtGox
884 2013-02-17 17:25:56 <jrmithdobbs> actually, thanks for the reminder, was going to order a neo this weekend any how now that I have something to test the nfc on
885 2013-02-17 17:26:01 <jgarzik> standard security measures from the first days of bitcoin :)
886 2013-02-17 17:26:18 jandd has joined
887 2013-02-17 17:26:27 <jgarzik> "assume the exchange will get hacked or disappear tomorrow"
888 2013-02-17 17:26:42 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
889 2013-02-17 17:27:08 <jrmithdobbs> 7 weeks, bah
890 2013-02-17 17:41:29 <ProfMac> sipa, on blockchain.info I can export the wallet. When I do that in clear text, I see an XML file with addr, priv, & label fields for each key. This makes sense to me and is pretty straightforward. On the reference client, whenever I try to export something I only find a path to make a CSV file that contains a (convenience label, address) pair, and I don't notice any way to export the private key.
891 2013-02-17 17:42:13 d4de has joined
892 2013-02-17 17:44:23 <sipa> ProfMac: you need the RPC interface to import/export keys in the reference client
893 2013-02-17 17:44:30 paybitcoin1 has joined
894 2013-02-17 17:45:03 <ProfMac> sipa, thanks. I'll go Google.
895 2013-02-17 17:45:04 <sipa> ProfMac: in the GUI version, you can go the rpc console, and use 'dumpprivkey <address>' and 'importprivkey <secret>'
896 2013-02-17 17:46:14 <ProfMac> sipa, success.
897 2013-02-17 17:46:15 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
898 2013-02-17 17:48:21 <jaakkos> does the bitcoin-qt wallet let you spend unconfirmed change?
899 2013-02-17 17:48:33 <sipa> yes
900 2013-02-17 17:49:58 <jaakkos> Schildbachs Android wallet doesn't. i was uncertain about -qt because i know my wallet is fragmented.
901 2013-02-17 17:50:14 <jaakkos> the android wallet is stupid though...
902 2013-02-17 17:50:19 <sipa> how so?
903 2013-02-17 17:50:32 <jaakkos> well let's say you send money to the wallet and go to cafe
904 2013-02-17 17:50:51 <jaakkos> you sent to one address. then you buy something and realize you want to buy another one for your friend
905 2013-02-17 17:50:55 <jaakkos> --> wait 10 minutes..
906 2013-02-17 17:51:10 <sipa> oh, yes, that's a limitation in BitcoinJ
907 2013-02-17 17:51:29 <sipa> though maybe new versions allow this by now
908 2013-02-17 17:53:59 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
909 2013-02-17 17:54:47 <TD> jaakkos: that's fixed in the latest version
910 2013-02-17 17:54:57 <TD> jaakkos: which isn't released yet. but we're just waiting for bitcoin 0.8 to roll out
911 2013-02-17 17:55:25 <TD> the android wallet will follow a bit later. anyway, if you can't wait, you can grab it directly from here: http://code.google.com/p/bitcoin-wallet/downloads/list
912 2013-02-17 17:55:33 <TD> it's the one called bitcoin-wallet-2.39_bitcoinj0.7_spendpolicies.apk
913 2013-02-17 17:56:22 <TD> jaakkos: testing is helpful :) the more reports we get of it working, the faster it'll get released
914 2013-02-17 17:57:21 zooko has joined
915 2013-02-17 18:00:55 <moarrr> Hello, I download the bitcoin wallet injector at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5ScgnU7alY
916 2013-02-17 18:01:01 <moarrr> but its not working, does anyone know how to fix it?
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920 2013-02-17 18:04:08 <sipa> wth is a wallet injector?
921 2013-02-17 18:04:27 <MC1984> if youre not trollin, i feel bad for you
922 2013-02-17 18:04:33 <MC1984> wait no i dont
923 2013-02-17 18:04:55 <moarrr> Its supposed to inject bitcoins into your wallet
924 2013-02-17 18:05:15 <MC1984> comments disabled
925 2013-02-17 18:05:18 <MC1984> sems legit
926 2013-02-17 18:07:40 <broomkorn> lol
927 2013-02-17 18:09:12 <JWU42> ROFL
928 2013-02-17 18:09:20 <JWU42> I miss him
929 2013-02-17 18:09:28 <JWU42> no more youtube vids
930 2013-02-17 18:09:50 <JWU42> ahh - that is someone different
931 2013-02-17 18:11:07 rbecker is now known as RBecker
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936 2013-02-17 18:16:24 <moarrr> should I use this tool instead?
937 2013-02-17 18:16:25 <moarrr> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5ScgnU7alY
938 2013-02-17 18:16:35 <moarrr> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UyoWDDbOcI
939 2013-02-17 18:16:38 <moarrr> rather
940 2013-02-17 18:16:49 <jaakkos> TD: ok, good to know!
941 2013-02-17 18:17:02 <moarrr> BitJacker ;)
942 2013-02-17 18:17:36 <TD> jaakkos: the new version is also a lot faster
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949 2013-02-17 18:37:59 <grau> three new blocks in the same minute
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968 2013-02-17 19:02:29 <jaakkos> TD: bitcoin-wallet-2.39_bitcoinj0.7_spendpolicies.apk just crashed on me when i was trying to send 0.1 btc :)
969 2013-02-17 19:02:40 <TD> doh
970 2013-02-17 19:02:40 <jaakkos> black screen, then not responding dialog
971 2013-02-17 19:02:52 <TD> did you open the peer monitor?
972 2013-02-17 19:02:55 <jaakkos> no
973 2013-02-17 19:03:21 FredEE has joined
974 2013-02-17 19:03:26 <TD> ok. if you know how to grab /data/anr/traces.txt then i could diagnose the bug
975 2013-02-17 19:03:30 <TD> though i suspect i already know what it might be
976 2013-02-17 19:04:05 <MC1984> does that android bitcoin wallet run on bitcoinj?
977 2013-02-17 19:04:06 <TD> if you restart the app and the transaction isn't there, you can re-send it. if you restart and it is there, it should confirm as normal, though you can do a blockchain reset if necessary
978 2013-02-17 19:04:11 <TD> MC1984: yeah
979 2013-02-17 19:04:18 <MC1984> cool
980 2013-02-17 19:04:25 <MC1984> its a great app
981 2013-02-17 19:04:49 <TD> it'll be greater still once i eliminate all the stupid lock inversions
982 2013-02-17 19:05:09 <TD> and make first-run performance better. and and and â¦â¦ still so much to do
983 2013-02-17 19:05:28 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
984 2013-02-17 19:06:02 <MC1984> can i ask why the QR code is so small on the screen
985 2013-02-17 19:06:17 runeks has quit (Quit: Leaving)
986 2013-02-17 19:06:22 <MC1984> i thought perhaps as a security meansure to stop someone spying your code from 50ft away?
987 2013-02-17 19:06:48 <TD> you can tap it to make it bigger
988 2013-02-17 19:07:03 <MC1984> oh never thought of that lol
989 2013-02-17 19:07:09 runeks has joined
990 2013-02-17 19:07:11 <TD> the UI needs work, imho. we've been discussing some changes.
991 2013-02-17 19:07:24 <TD> the qrcode isn't really that helpful. it's better to press the receive button, but currently it's too small
992 2013-02-17 19:07:30 <TD> anyway, andreas has some ideas for ways to improve it
993 2013-02-17 19:08:24 <MC1984> is it possible to do offline transactions with just bluetooth say
994 2013-02-17 19:08:29 darkskiez has joined
995 2013-02-17 19:08:30 <MC1984> no i dont suppose it is
996 2013-02-17 19:08:44 <TD> it is
997 2013-02-17 19:08:54 <TD> and actually we implemented it in a hackathon. but we never finished it.
998 2013-02-17 19:09:01 <TD> well, what we actually did was "one side is offline"
999 2013-02-17 19:09:06 <TD> the other side had to broadcast the tx still
1000 2013-02-17 19:09:12 <MC1984> what about if the txn is signed and given to both devices so that one of them will broadcast it next time its online
1001 2013-02-17 19:09:21 <TD> that's what the feature did
1002 2013-02-17 19:09:31 <TD> it just needed more baking, really. but that never got finished. i forgot why.
1003 2013-02-17 19:09:42 <MC1984> oh lol
1004 2013-02-17 19:09:59 <MC1984> might be a killer feature for a killer app for bitcoin
1005 2013-02-17 19:10:08 <MC1984> mobile is the future etc etc
1006 2013-02-17 19:11:31 RBecker is now known as rbecker
1007 2013-02-17 19:12:02 <TD> well, i don't know about "killer feature". offline credit card transactions in europe are only about 7% of the total
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1009 2013-02-17 19:12:12 <TD> but it's important for cases where your signal is weak, etc
1010 2013-02-17 19:12:29 <TD> jaakkos: does the app offer to send a report when it starts?
1011 2013-02-17 19:13:59 <MC1984> well i suppose its a bit like writing a cheque
1012 2013-02-17 19:14:20 <MC1984> dude could always bounce you
1013 2013-02-17 19:14:46 <TD> that's why in our code it's the recipient who is supposed to be online
1014 2013-02-17 19:14:49 <TD> the sender can be offline
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1017 2013-02-17 19:26:00 <jaakkos> TD: no reporting thing,
1018 2013-02-17 19:26:07 <jaakkos> TD: let me grab the traces
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1022 2013-02-17 19:27:10 <TD> jaakkos: ok. i guess because it's not on the play store it can't report crashes or something. i thought andreas did his own crash reporter than emailed him stack traces
1023 2013-02-17 19:27:47 <jaakkos> http://pastebin.com/MVzCRyuZ
1024 2013-02-17 19:27:53 zooko` has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1025 2013-02-17 19:28:55 <TD> thanks
1026 2013-02-17 19:29:50 meLon_ has joined
1027 2013-02-17 19:30:07 <TD> yep
1028 2013-02-17 19:30:08 <jaakkos> oh, but is that just the stack traces at the time when the file is read?
1029 2013-02-17 19:30:14 zooko``` has joined
1030 2013-02-17 19:30:15 <TD> nope, it's the correct data
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1032 2013-02-17 19:30:28 <TD> as i thought, another lock inversion. declaring war on these is next on my todo list
1033 2013-02-17 19:30:47 <TD> until then sorry about that. it's triggered by timing issues, so if you restart the app it will probably work
1034 2013-02-17 19:30:54 <jaakkos> yes
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1049 2013-02-17 19:36:42 <jaakkos> TD: how does the android wallet download so little of the chain?
1050 2013-02-17 19:37:22 swappermall has joined
1051 2013-02-17 19:37:22 <TD> it implements simplified payment verification. see satoshis paper for a description of this. also, the latest version that you now have implements Bloom filtering. when it finds a bitcoin 0.8+ node to download from, it doesn't need to fetch irrelevant transactions
1052 2013-02-17 19:37:38 <TD> so all it has to download are the 80 byte headers, and your transactions and their merkle branches proving inclusion in the chain
1053 2013-02-17 19:38:01 <jaakkos> TD: i thought reference client doesn't support merkle tree lookups
1054 2013-02-17 19:38:33 zooko```` has joined
1055 2013-02-17 19:38:37 <TD> as of 0.8+ you can ask the c++ node to set a Bloom filter on the connection. then the only transactions you get are the useful ones. plus their branches.
1056 2013-02-17 19:38:41 <TD> it's a new protocol extension.
1057 2013-02-17 19:39:01 <TD> if you get connected to a 0.7 node or lower then unfortunately, it will still download entire blocks
1058 2013-02-17 19:39:19 <TD> so that's slow. with 0.8 nodes syncing the chain is more or less instant, especially as the android app syncs when you plug it in
1059 2013-02-17 19:39:21 meLon has quit (Quit: leaving)
1060 2013-02-17 19:39:26 <TD> so it's rarely more than 1 day behind
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1068 2013-02-17 19:43:10 <grau> TD: if I import an existing key into a bitcoinj powered app. How does it know where to start to download?
1069 2013-02-17 19:43:20 <TD> when you import the key you can give it a date
1070 2013-02-17 19:43:41 <grau> Ok, I have not recon the option in MultiBit
1071 2013-02-17 19:43:47 <TD> if you don't, then it'll scan the whole chain (assuming you let it ⦠it won't automatically go back and re-download parts of the chain it already synced)
1072 2013-02-17 19:44:09 <TD> grau: it's probably not exposed in the UI. importing private keys is kinda specialized, imho. you can just send the money between wallets. WalletTool supports it though
1073 2013-02-17 19:45:03 <grau> ok. I would want to add bloom filter to my node. Is the BIP sufficient or read the satoshi code is it again?
1074 2013-02-17 19:45:51 <grau> Regarding MultiBit, I think I will rather transfer the btc to new key. Thanks
1075 2013-02-17 19:46:31 <TD> iirc the wiki got frozen so nobody was able to update the BIP to the very latest code :(
1076 2013-02-17 19:46:44 <TD> but it should still be useful to understand how it works and most of the design. only minor details changed after the BIP was written
1077 2013-02-17 19:47:02 <TD> the BIP *should* be sufficient
1078 2013-02-17 19:47:10 <TD> i don't know why the wiki got locked. imho we should move away from the wiki. it sucks.
1079 2013-02-17 19:48:17 <grau> Is there a doc of what protocol version what came in ? I mean I am on 6001 the last I implemented was your ping/pong
1080 2013-02-17 19:53:47 <grau> TD: Does bitcoinj check for a specific version or for /Satoshi:0.8x/ for bloom
1081 2013-02-17 19:54:23 <TD> no
1082 2013-02-17 19:54:28 <TD> it checks the protocol version
1083 2013-02-17 19:54:40 <grau> 8000?
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1086 2013-02-17 19:58:21 <TD> well, what it actually does is just send a bloom filter to every peer regardless of version
1087 2013-02-17 19:58:34 <TD> old peers ignore the filter. newer peers don't. then it just handles block or filteredblock as appropriate.
1088 2013-02-17 20:00:02 <MC1984> oh wow im pleased the bloom filter stuff made it into use so quickly
1089 2013-02-17 20:01:21 ciphermonk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1090 2013-02-17 20:04:58 EvanR3 has joined
1091 2013-02-17 20:05:08 <TD> MC1984: well it's not launched yet.
1092 2013-02-17 20:05:13 <EvanR3> is it just me or do i not have enough memory (1G) to run bitcoin client?
1093 2013-02-17 20:05:17 <TD> MC1984: both client and server are in release candidate status now
1094 2013-02-17 20:05:47 <MC1984> yeah thats still pretty quick, i only started hearing about bloom filters a few month ago
1095 2013-02-17 20:05:50 twobitcoins__ has joined
1096 2013-02-17 20:05:56 <MC1984> EvanR3 i run a node on 1g
1097 2013-02-17 20:06:08 <EvanR3> im pretty far behind on the block chain
1098 2013-02-17 20:06:18 <TD> EvanR3: my node is currently using 460mb resident. when syncing for the first time it'll use a lot more, yes
1099 2013-02-17 20:07:17 <MC1984> mine uses 500 ish when syning
1100 2013-02-17 20:07:36 <MC1984> pushes me into swap which is painful
1101 2013-02-17 20:07:49 <MC1984> currently 150mb though
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1106 2013-02-17 20:08:49 <EvanR3> is there any way to download blocks faster
1107 2013-02-17 20:09:06 <sturles> Get 0.8 rc1
1108 2013-02-17 20:09:10 <MC1984> use 0.8rc1?
1109 2013-02-17 20:09:14 <EvanR3> whoa
1110 2013-02-17 20:09:27 <EvanR3> im on 0.6.1
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1112 2013-02-17 20:09:40 <MC1984> dude.....
1113 2013-02-17 20:09:46 <MC1984> upgrade your shit
1114 2013-02-17 20:09:58 <EvanR3> normally upgrading means stuff thats working breaks
1115 2013-02-17 20:10:06 <EvanR3> but i guess bitcoin is different
1116 2013-02-17 20:10:20 <K1773R> bitcoin isnt M$ shit
1117 2013-02-17 20:10:22 <TD> um
1118 2013-02-17 20:10:25 <MC1984> no, with bitcoin upgrading means horrendous security holes get closed
1119 2013-02-17 20:10:30 <EvanR3> im just scared because i dont want to lose access to my wallet for whatever backwards incompatible reason
1120 2013-02-17 20:10:44 <TD> of ffs. read the release notes. wallets have never been rendered unreadable.
1121 2013-02-17 20:10:54 <EvanR3> ok
1122 2013-02-17 20:10:55 <MC1984> wallets are not at risk
1123 2013-02-17 20:11:04 <TD> you should always use the latest version of bitcoin _especially_ if having problems
1124 2013-02-17 20:11:05 <sipa> afaik, there has never been a version that broke backward compatibility for wallets, ever
1125 2013-02-17 20:11:06 <TD> but just in general
1126 2013-02-17 20:11:10 <TD> don't "not upgrade". you hold the whole network back
1127 2013-02-17 20:11:17 <MC1984> anyway you can just restore from the backup you surely have
1128 2013-02-17 20:11:19 <sturles> Quit your ancient 0.6.1 and back up your wallet before you upgrade.
1129 2013-02-17 20:11:31 <EvanR3> its backed up
1130 2013-02-17 20:11:35 <sipa> 0.6.1 is 9 months old...
1131 2013-02-17 20:11:36 <EvanR3> i havent used it in a long time
1132 2013-02-17 20:11:53 <EvanR3> well the dir says .6.3
1133 2013-02-17 20:11:59 <EvanR3> download .8rc1
1134 2013-02-17 20:12:02 <EvanR3> ing*
1135 2013-02-17 20:12:25 <MC1984> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/test/
1136 2013-02-17 20:12:42 <TD> and then subscribe to the mailing list so you know when there are new versions
1137 2013-02-17 20:12:51 <MC1984> will 0.9 deal with a partial chain in the old format?
1138 2013-02-17 20:12:54 <MC1984> 0.8
1139 2013-02-17 20:13:12 <sipa> what is a "partial chain" ?
1140 2013-02-17 20:13:49 <EvanR3> holy shit this is stupid fast
1141 2013-02-17 20:13:53 <MC1984> partial sync
1142 2013-02-17 20:14:02 <sipa> MC1984: what is a partial sync?
1143 2013-02-17 20:14:09 <MC1984> EvanR3 did it just pick up where it left off on your sync?
1144 2013-02-17 20:14:18 zooko```` has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1145 2013-02-17 20:14:22 <ne0futur> ah j y pense pour tous ceux qui ont pas grsec, faites gaffe a CVE-2013-0871
1146 2013-02-17 20:14:23 <sipa> or better, what is the difference between a fully synced node and a not fully synced one?
1147 2013-02-17 20:14:45 <ne0futur> oups bad channel, sorry for noise
1148 2013-02-17 20:14:47 b4tt3r135 has joined
1149 2013-02-17 20:15:09 <MC1984> sipa lol ok, nothing i suppose
1150 2013-02-17 20:15:19 <ne0futur> ( but stil, in english, if you dont have grsec, beware of CVE-2013-0871 )
1151 2013-02-17 20:15:37 <sipa> MC1984: what you consider a partial sync now, was a full sync at some point in time
1152 2013-02-17 20:15:56 <MC1984> yeah youre right
1153 2013-02-17 20:16:43 <MC1984> so it converts the blocks into the new format and does a -reindex then discards all the old stuff right
1154 2013-02-17 20:17:18 <sipa> there is no new format for blocks
1155 2013-02-17 20:17:20 <TD> ne0futur: thanks
1156 2013-02-17 20:17:32 <sipa> MC1984: it's a bit more complicated
1157 2013-02-17 20:17:42 meLon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1158 2013-02-17 20:17:44 <sipa> MC1984: the old databases are just ignored
1159 2013-02-17 20:17:59 <ne0futur> TD: join #bitcoin-hosting if you like it , i generally avoid offtopic in here ;)
1160 2013-02-17 20:18:09 <sipa> MC1984: then it hardlinks the old block files to their new location
1161 2013-02-17 20:18:18 <sipa> MC1984: and then reindexes everything
1162 2013-02-17 20:18:21 <EvanR3> so has there been much advancement in the area of embedded bitcoin clients
1163 2013-02-17 20:18:29 <EvanR3> or upgrading embedded clients
1164 2013-02-17 20:19:05 meLon has joined
1165 2013-02-17 20:19:05 meLon has quit (Changing host)
1166 2013-02-17 20:19:05 meLon has joined
1167 2013-02-17 20:19:41 ielo has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1168 2013-02-17 20:20:58 <TD> embedded?
1169 2013-02-17 20:21:29 <EvanR3> like in a dedicated vault device, point of sale, portable device?
1170 2013-02-17 20:21:49 <TD> look at Trezor
1171 2013-02-17 20:21:57 <MC1984> there have been a few
1172 2013-02-17 20:22:07 <MC1984> most seemed too ambitious at this stage
1173 2013-02-17 20:22:50 <MC1984> sipa so to a person upgrading to 0.8, does it look a bit like its starting from the beginning?
1174 2013-02-17 20:24:25 Motest003 has joined
1175 2013-02-17 20:24:28 <sipa> yes
1176 2013-02-17 20:24:47 Motest003 has quit (Client Quit)
1177 2013-02-17 20:24:50 <EvanR3> is multibit good?
1178 2013-02-17 20:24:51 <sipa> you're technically starting from scratch, but using the old block data to bootstrap
1179 2013-02-17 20:25:22 gritcoin has joined
1180 2013-02-17 20:26:23 <MC1984> so the old 2gb blk files stay for those that already have them, but everyone new gets the 128mb blk files
1181 2013-02-17 20:27:27 <sipa> yeah
1182 2013-02-17 20:28:02 <MC1984> i understand now
1183 2013-02-17 20:28:07 <TD> EvanR3: well i like it
1184 2013-02-17 20:28:37 <MC1984> EvanR3 multibit is one of only a few serious alternative clients imo
1185 2013-02-17 20:28:47 <EvanR3> is it much faster?
1186 2013-02-17 20:29:10 <MC1984> its an SPV so its faster, but not really comparable
1187 2013-02-17 20:29:18 <EvanR3> spv?
1188 2013-02-17 20:29:37 <MC1984> you dont need to download the whole chain
1189 2013-02-17 20:29:47 meLon has quit (Quit: leaving)
1190 2013-02-17 20:29:51 <MC1984> but you are forced to rely on someone elses chain to a degree
1191 2013-02-17 20:29:57 <EvanR3> ive been out of the loop too long i have no idea whats going on
1192 2013-02-17 20:29:59 meLon has joined
1193 2013-02-17 20:29:59 meLon has quit (Changing host)
1194 2013-02-17 20:29:59 meLon has joined
1195 2013-02-17 20:30:02 <TD> EvanR3: yes it's faster. it's a bit less secure in the presence of a miner that can dominate the network.
1196 2013-02-17 20:30:04 <MC1984> its has slightly less trut thatn QT
1197 2013-02-17 20:30:07 <MC1984> trust
1198 2013-02-17 20:30:09 <TD> EvanR3: you probably don't need to worry about that.
1199 2013-02-17 20:30:12 <TD> EvanR3: https://multibit.org/releases/multibit-0.5.8beta.spendpolicy/
1200 2013-02-17 20:30:26 <TD> EvanR3: grab the spendpolicies version from there, for your platform, try it out and see how it works.
1201 2013-02-17 20:30:37 <TD> EvanR3: it'll be a lot faster if you connect it to a 0.8 node but they are still a bit rare
1202 2013-02-17 20:30:45 <TD> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=143274.msg1530766#msg1530766
1203 2013-02-17 20:31:08 <TD> see jims last post on that thread. there's a file called multibit.properties - you can add a line to that and it'll be a lot faster
1204 2013-02-17 20:31:14 <TD> (but don't forget to take the line out eventually)
1205 2013-02-17 20:31:18 meLon has quit (Client Quit)
1206 2013-02-17 20:31:57 <TD> if you don't add the magic line, it'll still be faster, but not as fast as it can be
1207 2013-02-17 20:32:00 meLon has joined
1208 2013-02-17 20:32:16 talso has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1209 2013-02-17 20:34:04 <gmaxwell> TD: Uh. Hey, SPV is great and all. But "a bit less secure in the presence of a miner that can dominate the network" is objectively untrue. _in the presence of a miner that can dominate the network_ SPV is completely dependant on that miner being honest. You might as well just send him all your funds to hold it for you, the security would be roughly equal.
1210 2013-02-17 20:34:07 TwilightSparklee has joined
1211 2013-02-17 20:34:12 <TD> ok. a lot less secure.
1212 2013-02-17 20:34:15 <gmaxwell> :)
1213 2013-02-17 20:34:23 theorbtwo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1214 2013-02-17 20:34:26 <TD> or heck, let's just say ⦠insecure
1215 2013-02-17 20:34:31 <gmaxwell> Agreed.
1216 2013-02-17 20:34:39 <TD> call it british understatement
1217 2013-02-17 20:34:53 <TD> let's hope ASICminer plays nice :)
1218 2013-02-17 20:34:59 <EvanR3> what does spv stand for
1219 2013-02-17 20:35:08 <sipa> simplified payment verification
1220 2013-02-17 20:35:16 <sipa> see satoshi's paper if you want the details
1221 2013-02-17 20:35:43 <EvanR3> i saw something about asic miners, is this the new normal?
1222 2013-02-17 20:35:55 gritcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1223 2013-02-17 20:35:59 <EvanR3> gpus are obsoleted?
1224 2013-02-17 20:36:01 <gmaxwell> It's also a lot less secure in the presence of an attacker who can isolate you from the good network somehow (e.g. your attacker is your ISP), even if they aren't a dominant miner. For some reason that always seems like a less material risk, though I'm not quite sure why.
1225 2013-02-17 20:36:10 <TD> yes
1226 2013-02-17 20:36:17 <TD> i think it's a bigger risk
1227 2013-02-17 20:36:55 <TD> given the prevalence of crappy wifi hotspots that people will use just because they're free
1228 2013-02-17 20:37:10 * Luke-Jr wonders what it's called when your node only verifies signatures of transactions leading up to your own coins <.<
1229 2013-02-17 20:37:10 <TD> fixing it isn't easy though. at some point i'd like to give each peer its own key and allow for signed messages.
1230 2013-02-17 20:37:32 <sipa> EvanR3: in terms of hash/energy, asic > fpga > gpu > cpu
1231 2013-02-17 20:37:39 <TD> then you could check your addr.dat, pick some peers you know have been around for a long time and that have keys, and set up an authenticated connection.
1232 2013-02-17 20:37:57 <TD> sipa: soon we'll have to add different asic processes to that list
1233 2013-02-17 20:38:02 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i'd call it lazy verification :)
1234 2013-02-17 20:38:16 <TD> i think BFL uses a more modern process than avalon
1235 2013-02-17 20:38:24 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: we don't have good language for reduced signature validation. The bitcoin security model nearly holds even if ECDSA is hardly run by anyone.
1236 2013-02-17 20:40:12 <TD> Luke-Jr: why would you do that?
1237 2013-02-17 20:40:54 <sipa> i guess it would make sense as a merchant
1238 2013-02-17 20:41:17 <warren> damn.... now leveldb on my bitcoin0.8rc1 on Windows says it is corrupted
1239 2013-02-17 20:41:22 <warren> txindex=0
1240 2013-02-17 20:42:15 <sipa> i haven't ever seen a leveldb (or a bdb....) get corrupted on my own system, except deliberately
1241 2013-02-17 20:42:15 <grau> Satoshi paper says about SPV: "... and obtain the Merkle branch linking the transaction to the block it's timestamped in." I do not get this the transaction has no timestamp.
1242 2013-02-17 20:42:36 <sipa> grau: the block is the timestamp
1243 2013-02-17 20:42:41 <gmaxwell> warren: how is it telling you its corrupted and what happened?
1244 2013-02-17 20:42:48 <sipa> grau: satoshi considers the block chain a timestampting system
1245 2013-02-17 20:43:02 <grau> yes but I am looking for the block from transaction so how do I know which block
1246 2013-02-17 20:43:09 <warren> EXCEPTION: 13leveldb_error
1247 2013-02-17 20:43:11 <warren> Database I/O error
1248 2013-02-17 20:43:21 <warren> pop-up
1249 2013-02-17 20:43:32 <sipa> grau: what is the exact use case?
1250 2013-02-17 20:43:46 <grau> I admit that I try to understand SPV
1251 2013-02-17 20:43:48 TwilightSparklee has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
1252 2013-02-17 20:44:20 <grau> I have a transaction and try to check if it is on the chain. How do I know which block?
1253 2013-02-17 20:44:39 <gmaxwell> You have to either scan the blocks, or be told where it is.
1254 2013-02-17 20:44:43 talso has joined
1255 2013-02-17 20:45:05 <grau> scan the block mean download them, right?
1256 2013-02-17 20:45:19 <sipa> grau: just having block headers suffices
1257 2013-02-17 20:45:34 <gmaxwell> Or download filtered copies of them.
1258 2013-02-17 20:46:00 <grau> How do I conclude which block the TX should be in ?
1259 2013-02-17 20:46:27 <gmaxwell> You have to either scan the blocks, or be told where it is.
1260 2013-02-17 20:46:29 <warren> crap, found the problem. the disk itself is bad.
1261 2013-02-17 20:46:47 <gmaxwell> warren: that seems to be surprisingly common.
1262 2013-02-17 20:47:05 <sipa> grau: in practice, with BIP37, you'll download filtered blocks, which avoids this problem
1263 2013-02-17 20:47:10 <grau> The transaction has no timestamp, so I can not be "told" within the protocol
1264 2013-02-17 20:47:10 <K1773R> no really? it said "I/O error"
1265 2013-02-17 20:48:09 <EvanR3> 0.8rc1 has a much smaller block chain on disk?
1266 2013-02-17 20:48:13 <gmaxwell> grau: uhhh. Firstâ the transaction cannot indicate inside it what block it is in becuase the transaction must be authored first.
1267 2013-02-17 20:48:24 <gmaxwell> grau: secondly, the protocol is not limited to the data inside a transaction itself.
1268 2013-02-17 20:48:48 <gmaxwell> EvanR3: no.
1269 2013-02-17 20:49:00 <gmaxwell> EvanR3: it has a much smaller working set for block validation.
1270 2013-02-17 20:49:20 <warren> gmaxwell: yesterday's txindex=1 corruption wasn't a bad disk though
1271 2013-02-17 20:49:29 <gmaxwell> But the size on disk is pretty similar, perhaps it saves a gig.
1272 2013-02-17 20:50:22 <EvanR3> can i merge two wallets yet, like, their secret keys
1273 2013-02-17 20:50:30 <TD> erm
1274 2013-02-17 20:50:44 <TD> grau: you should really fully understand satoshis paper before reimplementing bitcoin!
1275 2013-02-17 20:50:50 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1276 2013-02-17 20:51:10 <TD> grau: you know which block the transaction was in because you downloaded the block chain - that's how you found the transactions in the first place
1277 2013-02-17 20:51:25 <grau> gmaxwell: i get that, the tx obviously does not know its block. That is why I am asking: If I get an arbitary tx how do I know as SPV node which block to check if it is in that?
1278 2013-02-17 20:51:41 <TD> grau: you don't ever get "arbitrary txns"
1279 2013-02-17 20:51:53 <TD> grau: every tx an SPV node receives, came along with a block in some manner
1280 2013-02-17 20:52:06 <TD> so you record that fact in your database alongside the tx data
1281 2013-02-17 20:52:26 <TD> grau: ok, you get pending transactions when they are broadcast before being included into a block. of course they do not have any merkle branches
1282 2013-02-17 20:52:58 <TD> but the model is not "receive a tx, prove it was in the chain". the model is "sync with the chain, check the blocks, remember the relevant transactions"
1283 2013-02-17 20:53:08 <TD> other way around
1284 2013-02-17 20:54:30 <grau> ok, so you record that you received a relevant transaction and ask subsequent blocks if they are in there.
1285 2013-02-17 20:54:52 <TD> i'm not sure i understand what you mean by that
1286 2013-02-17 20:54:55 twobitcoins_ has joined
1287 2013-02-17 20:56:15 <grau> You expect that transactions you receive will be in blocks after you heard them and you only check transactions relevant to you?
1288 2013-02-17 20:56:57 _sgstair has joined
1289 2013-02-17 20:56:57 sgstair has quit (Disconnected by services)
1290 2013-02-17 20:56:58 _sgstair is now known as sgstair
1291 2013-02-17 20:57:52 <TD> grau: sort of. you can't check transactions in SPV mode. you verify that they were in the best known chain
1292 2013-02-17 20:58:19 twobitcoins__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1293 2013-02-17 20:58:19 <grau> thats i mean you check if they are in subsequent block. you do not check if they are valid
1294 2013-02-17 20:58:23 <TD> the assumptions are that (a) you can talk to the real P2P network and hear about the hardest chain and (b) the hardest chain is following the rules, that is, the majority of mining power is honest
1295 2013-02-17 20:58:33 <warren> K1773R: that's the error message windows shows
1296 2013-02-17 20:59:08 twobitcoins has joined
1297 2013-02-17 20:59:52 <grau> What happens if you hear of a tx after it was included into a block and you only have the header of that block. You wait forever for a subsequent block to confirm ?
1298 2013-02-17 21:01:02 <gmaxwell> grau: As TD explaned, a convention SPV node only hears about transactions by their inclusions in blocks.
1299 2013-02-17 21:01:13 twobitcoins_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1300 2013-02-17 21:01:45 <gmaxwell> Classical ones ignored relayed txn entirely (though I suppose now some may display relayed txn for informational purposes)
1301 2013-02-17 21:01:47 <grau> Ok I missed that. So it does not process INV messages
1302 2013-02-17 21:01:50 FredEE has joined
1303 2013-02-17 21:01:55 <grau> of TX
1304 2013-02-17 21:02:15 <sipa> it can optionally process unconfirmed transactions too, just to show them for example
1305 2013-02-17 21:02:21 <sipa> but that doesn't change anything else
1306 2013-02-17 21:02:29 <TD> does the verify.sh script work for anyone?
1307 2013-02-17 21:02:35 <TD> gmaxwell: they do yes
1308 2013-02-17 21:02:47 <TD> grau: it does
1309 2013-02-17 21:03:01 <sipa> TD: 404 not found
1310 2013-02-17 21:03:01 <TD> grau: "if you hear of a tx after it's included into a block" <- what do you mean?
1311 2013-02-17 21:03:10 <TD> sipa: exactly. i am not convinced this script works.
1312 2013-02-17 21:03:22 <sipa> grau: i think i see your misunderstanding
1313 2013-02-17 21:03:27 Insu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1314 2013-02-17 21:03:28 <grau> TD: might happen by error a node rebroadcasting some old stuff
1315 2013-02-17 21:03:41 <sipa> grau: you don't use unconfirmed transactions to determine what to look for in blocks
1316 2013-02-17 21:03:45 <TD> grau: if it's included into a block, then you know it was in the block chain. so the tx broadcast can be ignored
1317 2013-02-17 21:03:45 <gmaxwell> The one in git doesn't work because, at a minimum, bitcoin 0.8 isn't released yet.
1318 2013-02-17 21:04:14 <sipa> grau: you define a filter that selects what you're interested in, and it gets applied to both unconfirmed transactions and blocks
1319 2013-02-17 21:04:17 <TD> the old version number doesn't work either
1320 2013-02-17 21:05:47 * TD tries it with a command line argument
1321 2013-02-17 21:05:53 Jackneill has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1322 2013-02-17 21:06:21 <gmaxwell> TD: appears to have worked on bitcoin-0.7.2 for me.
1323 2013-02-17 21:06:41 <gmaxwell> (that isn't saying much because the 'worked' case seems to be outputting nothing at all)
1324 2013-02-17 21:07:18 <BTCTrader> hey there. what would it take to reopen a closed pull request? i'm interested in seeing this become active https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1498
1325 2013-02-17 21:07:22 <TD> hm
1326 2013-02-17 21:07:42 <gmaxwell> BTCTrader: that patch doesn't actually do anything.
1327 2013-02-17 21:07:50 <TD> gmaxwell: it seems to require a version to be given on the command line. i thought it had one hard-coded by default.
1328 2013-02-17 21:08:07 <TD> how comes gavins key isn't in git?
1329 2013-02-17 21:08:11 <grau> sipa: Could the node filtering the blocks not cheat the SPV ? It might just hide a transaction it is interested in
1330 2013-02-17 21:08:17 <sipa> grau: it can
1331 2013-02-17 21:08:28 <BTCTrader> gmaxwell oh? would a working patch be considered for a bitcoind release?
1332 2013-02-17 21:08:40 <grau> that means a single node connected to SPV can cheat it
1333 2013-02-17 21:08:59 <grau> provided its the first sending the block
1334 2013-02-17 21:09:01 <TD> grau: it can hide transactions if bloom filtering is active. it can't forge them (unless there's a bad majority miner)
1335 2013-02-17 21:09:20 <TD> grau: but then again, nodes can DoS you in lots of ways. like, by refusing to serve you data at all.
1336 2013-02-17 21:09:38 <TD> grau: if we start getting reports of nodes maliciously dropping transactions for some reason it's easy enough to add cross-checking
1337 2013-02-17 21:09:44 <gmaxwell> BTCTrader: Yes, potentially. Though CJDNS using half of the avalable space is a little ugly.
1338 2013-02-17 21:09:47 <grau> Yes but in this case you do not notice. you get a block header
1339 2013-02-17 21:10:10 <BTCTrader> half available space of what?
1340 2013-02-17 21:10:35 <gmaxwell> BTCTrader: of the IPv6 space available for alternative networks.
1341 2013-02-17 21:10:39 <grau> I am not quite done with thinking but SPV + bloom appears risky at the moment
1342 2013-02-17 21:10:56 <sipa> BTCTrader: that patch redefines all ipv6 addresses of the form FC<anything> to be CJDNS addresses
1343 2013-02-17 21:11:15 <TD> grau: then don't use it? really, i'm not worried about that attack. if you think you should have received payment and can't see it, tell your client to resync the chain and use different nodes. problem solved.
1344 2013-02-17 21:11:22 <sipa> BTCTrader: i don't think that's acceptable
1345 2013-02-17 21:11:29 <gmaxwell> grau: of course its 'risky', it is less secureâ objectively and intentionally, in exchange for having a reduced operating cost.
1346 2013-02-17 21:11:32 <TD> grau: there isn't really any motivation for nodes to randomly hide transactions anyway
1347 2013-02-17 21:12:02 <BTCTrader> ok so you want clarification or greater limitation of the network address space to be used?
1348 2013-02-17 21:12:04 <TD> if you go back to the hijacked internet connection attack, well, SPV nodes already have issues with that
1349 2013-02-17 21:12:04 <sipa> BTCTrader: at some point we may want to do a protocol extension to get rid of the limitation of the current address recors
1350 2013-02-17 21:12:15 <sipa> BTCTrader: but without that, there is not really anything that can be done
1351 2013-02-17 21:12:24 <EvanR3> DoS does not need motivation
1352 2013-02-17 21:12:56 <TD> ...
1353 2013-02-17 21:12:59 <TD> yes it does?
1354 2013-02-17 21:13:01 <grau> TD: ok ok... I get that there is a tradeoff. Just trying to grasp the weights
1355 2013-02-17 21:13:02 <EvanR3> not really
1356 2013-02-17 21:13:12 <TD> then why aren't you DoSing my web server right now?
1357 2013-02-17 21:13:26 <sipa> grau: it's a fundamental and known weakness to filtering, indeed
1358 2013-02-17 21:13:32 <EvanR3> if this were minecraft i might be doing it in response to your last remark
1359 2013-02-17 21:13:39 <sipa> grau: and it's inevitable without an authenticated UTXO set
1360 2013-02-17 21:13:47 <BTCTrader> what kind of protocol extension would that look like sipa? a blockchain based ipv6 network?
1361 2013-02-17 21:14:15 <sipa> BTCTrader: currently, bitcoin basically encodes every address as an IPv6 address
1362 2013-02-17 21:14:27 <sipa> BTCTrader: some subset of that IPv6 range is mapped to the IPv4 space
1363 2013-02-17 21:14:41 <sipa> and the same thing was done afterwards for Tor addresses, because it's a very small subset
1364 2013-02-17 21:15:05 <sipa> what that cjdns patch does is redefine an enormous piece of IPv6 range to be CJDNS
1365 2013-02-17 21:15:16 <sipa> which means that piece becomes unavailable for other purposes
1366 2013-02-17 21:15:39 <BTCTrader> gotchya. i will ask cjd and other devs to clarify that for you
1367 2013-02-17 21:15:50 <sipa> there is nothing to be clarified, i understand it completely
1368 2013-02-17 21:16:00 <sipa> it's the only possibility with the current bitcoin protocol
1369 2013-02-17 21:16:07 <BTCTrader> hmm ok
1370 2013-02-17 21:16:56 <sipa> so we'd need a protocol extension that introduces more variable address records (with variable lenth maybe, with a byte to identify the network it belongs to instead of mapping everything into ipv6, ...
1371 2013-02-17 21:16:57 zooko has joined
1372 2013-02-17 21:17:09 <sipa> perhaps adds host keys to the protocol
1373 2013-02-17 21:17:23 <sipa> all very cool possibilities, but nothing that will happen soon
1374 2013-02-17 21:17:34 <BTCTrader> ok :)
1375 2013-02-17 21:20:03 <EvanR3> meh downloading blocks is still slow for me
1376 2013-02-17 21:20:20 <EvanR3> 6800 to go, about 1 per second
1377 2013-02-17 21:20:42 <TD> 1 per second?
1378 2013-02-17 21:20:49 <EvanR3> yeah
1379 2013-02-17 21:20:54 <TD> that's much slower than it should be
1380 2013-02-17 21:20:58 <TD> did you edit the multibit.properties file?
1381 2013-02-17 21:21:03 <EvanR3> ... now it says 5000
1382 2013-02-17 21:21:07 cosurgi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1383 2013-02-17 21:21:11 <EvanR3> this is bitcoin-qt
1384 2013-02-17 21:21:13 <TD> oh
1385 2013-02-17 21:21:23 <sipa> probably a bad peer, in that case
1386 2013-02-17 21:22:24 cosurgi has joined
1387 2013-02-17 21:24:21 <EvanR3> 2800
1388 2013-02-17 21:24:36 <EvanR3> i could have sworn i saw that before too, this ETA is funky
1389 2013-02-17 21:25:10 <EvanR3> maybe sometimes it gets bad blocks and has to retry?
1390 2013-02-17 21:27:29 <gmaxwell> EvanR3: no, but it does improve the estimate of how far it has to go once you have enough peers.
1391 2013-02-17 21:27:45 <EvanR3> my max appears to be 12
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1395 2013-02-17 21:30:46 rbecker is now known as RBecker
1396 2013-02-17 21:32:27 <grau> TD: I did not need or have implemented SPV yet (probably never will), therefore had question to ensure I support your (bitcoinj) bloom requests properly. That's all. You want me to rather ask dumb questions then fuck up, right?
1397 2013-02-17 21:34:14 <EvanR3> whats up with all this talk of bloom filters
1398 2013-02-17 21:35:07 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1399 2013-02-17 21:35:59 paybitcoin has joined
1400 2013-02-17 21:39:55 <grau> I think in the meanwhile that I remain on protocol version 6001. The mempool appers me a hack and the bloom is not relevant until my node is 1 out of 100.000
1401 2013-02-17 21:43:01 <TD> grau: no, not at all. the opposite, i want you to not fuck up :) i agree you don't need to support bloom filtering yet. maybe in future it'll be helpful.
1402 2013-02-17 21:43:07 <TD> but the way it's implemented, it's optional on the server side
1403 2013-02-17 21:43:15 MobiusL has joined
1404 2013-02-17 21:43:17 * TD -> back to phone call
1405 2013-02-17 21:43:18 <TD> bbl
1406 2013-02-17 21:50:33 ashams has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1408 2013-02-17 21:54:30 Z0rZ0rZ0r has quit (Quit: Wheeeee)
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1414 2013-02-17 22:11:37 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1415 2013-02-17 22:12:56 ilian000 has joined
1416 2013-02-17 22:13:04 <ilian000> Hello everyone!
1417 2013-02-17 22:13:29 <ilian000> What's a good java IDE for writing irc bots?
1418 2013-02-17 22:15:00 <freewil> eclipse
1419 2013-02-17 22:15:11 <ilian000> is NetBeans also fine?
1420 2013-02-17 22:15:19 <freewil> whatever your preference
1421 2013-02-17 22:15:51 <sipa> ilian000: why would any IDE that is good for writing Java br better or worse for writing a particular type of program?
1422 2013-02-17 22:16:41 <ilian000> dunno... :P
1423 2013-02-17 22:16:44 CodeShark has joined
1424 2013-02-17 22:16:57 * ilian000 is noobish, demote meh !
1425 2013-02-17 22:18:21 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1426 2013-02-17 22:18:29 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I wouldn't use a Java IDE even to write Java!
1427 2013-02-17 22:18:32 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
1428 2013-02-17 22:18:57 <Luke-Jr> of course, I also wrote Makefiles for a Visual Basic 6 program once too <.<
1429 2013-02-17 22:19:04 CodeShark has joined
1430 2013-02-17 22:19:56 Arnavion has joined
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1433 2013-02-17 22:27:14 ilian000 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1444 2013-02-17 23:04:42 <EvanR3> only 2900 blocks to go
1445 2013-02-17 23:04:57 <swhitt> til difficulty change?
1446 2013-02-17 23:05:09 <EvanR3> until nothing
1447 2013-02-17 23:05:10 mapppum is now known as mappum
1448 2013-02-17 23:05:12 <swhitt> that's too long.
1449 2013-02-17 23:05:18 <EvanR3> ive been waiting to sync the block chain
1450 2013-02-17 23:05:44 <EvanR3> seen numbers like 8000, 5000, 2500, 300 already
1451 2013-02-17 23:05:58 <sipa> 0.8.0rc1?
1452 2013-02-17 23:06:13 <EvanR3> yes
1453 2013-02-17 23:06:15 <swhitt> electrum.
1454 2013-02-17 23:06:20 <swhitt> ah
1455 2013-02-17 23:06:35 <swhitt> at least you aren't synching a 0.7.x
1456 2013-02-17 23:07:32 <sipa> Luke-Jr: does gnome-terminal count as an IDE?
1457 2013-02-17 23:07:40 <Luke-Jr> sipa: no?
1458 2013-02-17 23:07:49 <sipa> in that case, I agree :p
1459 2013-02-17 23:11:44 mapppum has joined
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1463 2013-02-17 23:18:47 <BlueMatt> sorry for the pull-tester mess the past few days...should be fixed after it fails one more time
1464 2013-02-17 23:21:23 mapppum has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1465 2013-02-17 23:31:09 <BlueMatt> from now on, pull-tester will be testing each pull for test coverage...if the test coverage of the pull is lower than mast, it will give you a comment like this one: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2252#issuecomment-13699870
1466 2013-02-17 23:31:18 <BlueMatt> s/mast/master/
1467 2013-02-17 23:31:42 <sipa> BlueMatt++
1468 2013-02-17 23:31:47 <jaakkos> TD: does the filter not match if a transaction is unconfirmed?
1469 2013-02-17 23:32:14 <TD> jaakkos: it matches pending txns yes
1470 2013-02-17 23:32:18 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #244: STILL FAILING in 24 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/244/
1471 2013-02-17 23:32:55 <jaakkos> TD: well i just got my payment bitminter, the android wallet doesn't see it but i see it in blockchain.info
1472 2013-02-17 23:33:29 <TD> as an unconfirmed tx?
1473 2013-02-17 23:33:36 MrTiggr has joined
1474 2013-02-17 23:33:38 <jaakkos> TD: i think the same happened earlier, and the transaction would show up only after it was confirmed once
1475 2013-02-17 23:33:51 <jaakkos> TD: yes, unconfirmed tx
1476 2013-02-17 23:33:52 <TD> hm. that's odd.
1477 2013-02-17 23:34:03 <TD> what are the tx hashes?
1478 2013-02-17 23:34:15 <TD> and what peers are you using?
1479 2013-02-17 23:34:18 <jaakkos> https://blockchain.info/tx/6373cd0c481699df52d8ebeaa1acb53498a3b3fd9ee2921f767f6b5e54ddc50b
1480 2013-02-17 23:34:25 <BlueMatt> you will also find test coverage for each pull in src/total.coverage or src/test_bitcoin.coverage, and I think jenkins will soon be archiving master coverage reports
1481 2013-02-17 23:34:53 zooko has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1482 2013-02-17 23:35:36 <jaakkos> TD: well the payment comes from bitminter to the android wallet that you pasted earlier
1483 2013-02-17 23:35:46 B0g4r7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1484 2013-02-17 23:35:55 <jaakkos> TD: oh, but connected peers
1485 2013-02-17 23:36:00 <jaakkos> TD: there is one 0.8
1486 2013-02-17 23:36:10 B0g4r7 has joined
1487 2013-02-17 23:36:12 <TD> ok. then it should be bolded?
1488 2013-02-17 23:36:24 <jaakkos> yes
1489 2013-02-17 23:36:28 <jaakkos> except that they're now disconnected
1490 2013-02-17 23:36:34 <TD> ok
1491 2013-02-17 23:36:44 <jaakkos> but i saw it earlie
1492 2013-02-17 23:36:55 <TD> can you grab a debug log using adb logcat?
1493 2013-02-17 23:39:52 runeks has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1494 2013-02-17 23:40:37 <jaakkos> TD: well i wouldn't like to publish my transaction history.
1495 2013-02-17 23:40:51 <TD> the log doesn't contain that. well, it contains addresses.
1496 2013-02-17 23:41:04 <TD> you could scrub the addresses if you like
1497 2013-02-17 23:41:13 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1498 2013-02-17 23:41:14 <TD> otherwise i'll try and replicate this bug next week
1499 2013-02-17 23:41:17 <TD> i didn't see it myself yet
1500 2013-02-17 23:41:25 <TD> do you have a trusted peer set?
1501 2013-02-17 23:44:24 <jaakkos> a static list of good peers? well i suppose i can dump them from my bitcoin-qt
1502 2013-02-17 23:45:12 <jaakkos> but perhaps something else?
1503 2013-02-17 23:45:16 <TD> no, i mean, one set in the preferences activity
1504 2013-02-17 23:45:54 <jaakkos> nope, haven't used it
1505 2013-02-17 23:47:02 <jaakkos> now it shows up, with 1 confirmations
1506 2013-02-17 23:47:33 <TD> ok
1507 2013-02-17 23:47:38 <TD> i'll try and recreate that later
1508 2013-02-17 23:47:40 <jaakkos> but only 0.7.x peers connected
1509 2013-02-17 23:47:42 <TD> thanks for the bug report
1510 2013-02-17 23:48:09 <jaakkos> sure
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1514 2013-02-17 23:54:08 <TD> jaakkos: just to check - the app was running and connected when the payment came in, right?
1515 2013-02-17 23:54:25 <TD> jaakkos: if you miss the initial broadcast, then currently the app won't see the pending tx. it has to be running at the moment of payment
1516 2013-02-17 23:54:28 <TD> i'll fix that soon
1517 2013-02-17 23:55:05 <lianj> how to fix that?
1518 2013-02-17 23:55:33 <jaakkos> TD: well i'm not sure if my phone puts it in a sleep mode when i don't touch it
1519 2013-02-17 23:55:33 <TD> mempool command
1520 2013-02-17 23:55:36 JZavala has joined
1521 2013-02-17 23:55:59 <TD> jaakkos: yeah, if the phone was asleep then i think the network connections will have been cut. this probably explains it.
1522 2013-02-17 23:56:08 <TD> you have to actually be looking at the app for a payment to come in
1523 2013-02-17 23:56:57 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
1524 2013-02-17 23:56:57 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #245: FIXED in 24 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/245/
1525 2013-02-17 23:57:27 <TD> jaakkos: of course the same is true of bitcoin-qt and other apps. but we can still fix it.
1526 2013-02-17 23:59:19 <TD> yeah i just tested it and for me pending payments are working ok
1527 2013-02-17 23:59:41 <TD> anyway, probably that'll get sorted in the version right after the one being tested