1 2013-02-19 00:00:00 pooler has quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds)
2 2013-02-19 00:01:36 JyZyXEL has joined
3 2013-02-19 00:03:21 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I take back all the bad things I thought about pull-tester today, I should have listened to it.
4 2013-02-19 00:04:19 BTCTrader has joined
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6 2013-02-19 00:05:20 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: with all the false positives, its not exactly an unreasonable assumption
7 2013-02-19 00:06:42 rbecker is now known as RBecker
8 2013-02-19 00:06:47 axhlf has joined
9 2013-02-19 00:06:55 Haifisch has joined
10 2013-02-19 00:07:14 <Haifisch> oeh gribble is everywhere
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12 2013-02-19 00:09:54 <gavinandresen> ok, fix pushed, gitian windows build tested enough so I'm sure it's fixed, v0.8.0 re-tagged. git tag -d v0.8.0 if you pulled in the last half hour.
13 2013-02-19 00:10:24 zooko has joined
14 2013-02-19 00:12:16 <Haifisch> Java coders, Opinions? https://github.com/Haifisch/JBit
15 2013-02-19 00:13:17 axhlf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
16 2013-02-19 00:13:38 zooko has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
17 2013-02-19 00:15:42 <sipa> gavinandresen: building
18 2013-02-19 00:18:15 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #247: STILL FAILING in 19 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/247/
19 2013-02-19 00:19:10 <BlueMatt> lol, test coverage decreased and it "failed" I need to fix that
20 2013-02-19 00:19:19 PhantomSpark has joined
21 2013-02-19 00:20:54 <dhill> received block 00000000000007a5b0df4eae67b3d6985c4a825fd84e28e44fbbe2ba6d2abc58
22 2013-02-19 00:20:58 <dhill> SetBestChain: new best=00000000000007a5b0df4eae67b3d6985c4a825fd84e28e44fbbe2ba6d2abc58 height=156460 work=182025826406493960449 tx=1987864 date=2011-12-07 09:24:48
23 2013-02-19 00:21:01 <dhill> ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
24 2013-02-19 00:21:03 <dhill> received block 0000000000000e9acde92b60f6bff6eddd5becc31b1474f565284a77e496d707
25 2013-02-19 00:21:06 <dhill> LevelDB read failure: Corruption: block checksum mismatch
26 2013-02-19 00:21:09 <dhill> *** System error: Database corrupted
27 2013-02-19 00:21:11 <dhill> Error: System error: Database corrupted
28 2013-02-19 00:21:14 <dhill> ugh
29 2013-02-19 00:21:50 <BlueMatt> ok, NOW jenkins/pull-tester should be working.....
30 2013-02-19 00:21:52 <BlueMatt> sorry gavinandresen
31 2013-02-19 00:22:34 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: no problem, the new code coverage feature is super-awesome and exactly the kind of thing we need to get higher-quality releases
32 2013-02-19 00:23:58 <gmaxwell> dhill: 'block checksum mismatch' ... something is seriously broken on your system.
33 2013-02-19 00:24:17 word has joined
34 2013-02-19 00:24:29 <gavinandresen> sipa: pushed gitian.sigs/0.8.0-win32/gavinandresen ⦠re-building for linux now
35 2013-02-19 00:24:29 paybitcoin1 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
36 2013-02-19 00:25:41 <sipa> my linux build is almost done
37 2013-02-19 00:26:30 coolsa has joined
38 2013-02-19 00:27:57 <sipa> done; now building windows
39 2013-02-19 00:29:29 GMP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
40 2013-02-19 00:32:52 <gmaxwell> hah http://bitcointroll.org/
41 2013-02-19 00:34:08 coblee_ has joined
42 2013-02-19 00:35:10 <sipa> gavinandresen: no match on win32 qt
43 2013-02-19 00:35:38 <sipa> sigs pushe
44 2013-02-19 00:35:45 Hashdog has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
45 2013-02-19 00:36:02 tigger0 has joined
46 2013-02-19 00:36:17 <tigger0> RPC dumpprivkey on my wallet returned a priv key for one of my addresses
47 2013-02-19 00:36:22 <tigger0> it starts with L1UZ....
48 2013-02-19 00:36:40 <tigger0> how do i put this in the base58 format that multibit clients need? the "sipa" format?
49 2013-02-19 00:36:48 <sipa> it is the "sipa" format
50 2013-02-19 00:36:55 coblee has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
51 2013-02-19 00:36:55 coblee_ is now known as coblee
52 2013-02-19 00:37:01 <sipa> however, multibit doesn't support compressed pubkeys
53 2013-02-19 00:37:01 <tigger0> i thought sipa format starts with 5
54 2013-02-19 00:37:12 <tigger0> so i need to decompress it?
55 2013-02-19 00:37:14 <sipa> no
56 2013-02-19 00:37:20 <Luke-Jr> tigger0: the address will change if you do
57 2013-02-19 00:37:30 <sipa> the software is just not compatible with this sort of key
58 2013-02-19 00:37:55 <tigger0> so there's no way to export a private key from bitcoind and import it into multibit
59 2013-02-19 00:38:00 <sipa> indeed
60 2013-02-19 00:38:30 zooko has joined
61 2013-02-19 00:38:40 <tigger0> lol god, the multibit website could be a bit more clear about this stuff
62 2013-02-19 00:38:51 <tigger0> thanks
63 2013-02-19 00:39:01 <sipa> i think it's being worked on
64 2013-02-19 00:39:03 <sipa> to support it
65 2013-02-19 00:39:20 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
66 2013-02-19 00:39:21 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #248: FIXED in 19 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/248/
67 2013-02-19 00:39:34 <sipa> gavinandresen: ah my qt and boost are different too
68 2013-02-19 00:40:18 <Luke-Jr> tigger0: you *could* convince bitcoind to use old uncompressed keys - but it won't work with your current one
69 2013-02-19 00:46:01 <tigger0> yea basically my buddy has bitcoin 0.8 in VM, blockchain is running out of space in the virtual disk when it syncs
70 2013-02-19 00:46:19 <tigger0> am i correct in thinking the client can sync properly with the network before it downloads all of the blocks and uses all of the space up?
71 2013-02-19 00:46:23 broomkorn has quit (Quit: .)
72 2013-02-19 00:46:29 <sipa> no
73 2013-02-19 00:46:37 <sipa> syncing with the network == downloading the blocks
74 2013-02-19 00:46:48 <tigger0> he just needs to pull the coins out of the client
75 2013-02-19 00:46:48 <sipa> (and verifying, processing and indexing them)
76 2013-02-19 00:46:52 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: if you were going to update the bootstrap torrent, now (or several days ago) would be a really great time.
77 2013-02-19 00:46:57 <Luke-Jr> tigger0: you don't need any sync for that
78 2013-02-19 00:47:04 <sipa> tigger0: just send them
79 2013-02-19 00:47:08 <Luke-Jr> tigger0: just shutdown cleanly and take wallet.dat
80 2013-02-19 00:47:14 <tigger0> well the balance on his client is not valid he says
81 2013-02-19 00:47:21 <Luke-Jr> sipa: sending needs a sync
82 2013-02-19 00:47:47 <sipa> well, not fully sync, but it does need at least the blocks his incoming payments are in
83 2013-02-19 00:47:50 <sipa> indeed
84 2013-02-19 00:47:55 <tigger0> yea he doesn't have those yet
85 2013-02-19 00:48:00 <sipa> can't just increase the VM a bit? :)
86 2013-02-19 00:48:03 <Luke-Jr> tigger0: shutdown clean, copy wallet.dat off
87 2013-02-19 00:48:07 <tigger0> lol nope
88 2013-02-19 00:48:18 <tigger0> Luke-Jr: yea that sounds way better
89 2013-02-19 00:48:22 <tigger0> wait
90 2013-02-19 00:48:26 <tigger0> if i took the wallet.dat from the vm
91 2013-02-19 00:48:32 <tigger0> put it into a different client which has more space
92 2013-02-19 00:48:34 BTCTrader has quit (Quit: BTCTrader)
93 2013-02-19 00:48:37 <tigger0> will it need to reindex?
94 2013-02-19 00:48:49 <sipa> no
95 2013-02-19 00:48:54 <sipa> reindexing is about the block chain
96 2013-02-19 00:49:05 <sipa> it will rescan the wallet, but that takes a few minutes only normally
97 2013-02-19 00:49:22 <tigger0> okay awesome
98 2013-02-19 00:49:24 <tigger0> i'll try that
99 2013-02-19 00:49:45 <sipa> reindex, rescan, reorganize, retarget, ... any other re- terminology in bitcoin?
100 2013-02-19 00:50:01 <Luke-Jr> resubmit
101 2013-02-19 00:50:08 <Luke-Jr> resend
102 2013-02-19 00:50:09 <sipa> relay !
103 2013-02-19 00:50:16 <tigger0> cheating
104 2013-02-19 00:50:17 <gmaxwell> reorg..
105 2013-02-19 00:50:24 <tigger0> called it already
106 2013-02-19 00:50:28 <sipa> gmaxwell: echo :)
107 2013-02-19 00:51:00 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: ack
108 2013-02-19 00:51:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: as soon as home life allows :)
109 2013-02-19 00:51:23 * jgarzik heart Family Medical Leave (to care for someone else)
110 2013-02-19 00:51:55 kytv has joined
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114 2013-02-19 01:00:33 <sipa> gavinandresen: you'll have to put your qt 4.8.3 build somewhere...
115 2013-02-19 01:01:50 [ken] has quit (Quit: leaving)
116 2013-02-19 01:06:13 <gavinandresen> sipa: will do later tonight
117 2013-02-19 01:06:30 * sipa -> bed, in that case
118 2013-02-19 01:07:24 <gavinandresen> sipa: our linux builds match, I'm pushing my sigs
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127 2013-02-19 01:30:31 <gmaxwell> hm. after pulling boostrap my 0.8 test node didn't start pulling the chain immediately.
128 2013-02-19 01:33:50 Hasimir has joined
129 2013-02-19 01:34:40 <BlueMatt> god our test coverage is terrible
130 2013-02-19 01:35:12 <Diablo-D3> you just realized that?
131 2013-02-19 01:36:05 <BlueMatt> no, but seeing it staring you in the face is still a bit jarring
132 2013-02-19 01:36:19 <BlueMatt> http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/249/artifact/src/total.coverage/mnt/jenkins/jobs/Bitcoin/workspace/src/index.html
133 2013-02-19 01:36:32 <midnightmagic> ah good ol' jenkins.
134 2013-02-19 01:37:13 <Diablo-D3> is jenkins any good for c/c++ apps?
135 2013-02-19 01:37:36 <BlueMatt> it can listen to git and auto-run your bash scripts for each commit
136 2013-02-19 01:37:41 <BlueMatt> ^ all I use it for
137 2013-02-19 01:37:43 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: sadly the branch coverage is worthless because of C++. :(
138 2013-02-19 01:38:02 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ok...neither line nor function coverage is much better
139 2013-02-19 01:38:06 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: it's fine. it's a batch scheduler. it runs commands. it can run them on remote machines. Tada.
140 2013-02-19 01:38:22 <Diablo-D3> is that it?
141 2013-02-19 01:38:24 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: 35% vs 59% is a big difference.
142 2013-02-19 01:38:30 <Diablo-D3> I remember seeing lots of interesting shit on java projects
143 2013-02-19 01:38:37 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: I mean, jenkins does a lot of other stuff, most of it is kinda boring.
144 2013-02-19 01:38:56 <gmaxwell> you can make all of it work with C projects if you want to produce fun output.
145 2013-02-19 01:39:04 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, yes, but 59% still sucks
146 2013-02-19 01:39:22 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yes, hey, I've bitched about this a lot too.
147 2013-02-19 01:40:15 _W_ has left ("cycling channel")
148 2013-02-19 01:40:15 _W_ has joined
149 2013-02-19 01:40:16 <BlueMatt> everyone has, I was just pointing it out (again) because I was staring at it
150 2013-02-19 01:40:25 <Diablo-D3> actually, cant I make a git hook that makes git on the remote side run a script on push?
151 2013-02-19 01:40:30 <Diablo-D3> aaaaaactually
152 2013-02-19 01:40:39 <Diablo-D3> cant I use a git hook to run tests locally and fail to commit if they fail?
153 2013-02-19 01:40:49 <_W_> as I suspected, CoinBit private messages people joining this channel too; *CoinBit* Hi there, welcome to #bitcoin-dev !
154 2013-02-19 01:41:36 <midnightmagic> And #bitcoin
155 2013-02-19 01:41:43 <midnightmagic> GET HIM!
156 2013-02-19 01:43:48 <gmaxwell> CoinBit: Ahem?
157 2013-02-19 01:44:18 llama has joined
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160 2013-02-19 01:50:12 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
161 2013-02-19 01:58:08 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin-Qt non-determinism isn't fixed yet? :o
162 2013-02-19 01:59:31 MobPhone has joined
163 2013-02-19 02:01:42 <copumpkin> nondeterminism makes the world more fun
164 2013-02-19 02:03:33 agricocb has joined
165 2013-02-19 02:05:41 * Luke-Jr rebuilds his qt, since sipa's and gavinandresen's match
166 2013-02-19 02:08:00 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: hmm? sipa and my qt-win32-4.8.3 and our boost-win32-1.50.0 both did NOT match
167 2013-02-19 02:09:03 <gavinandresen> I'll try rebuilding those and see if I get a self-mismatch...
168 2013-02-19 02:10:09 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: but your bitcoin-qts did
169 2013-02-19 02:10:27 <Luke-Jr> mine differs still
170 2013-02-19 02:10:30 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: oh, Linux?
171 2013-02-19 02:10:40 <gavinandresen> yeah⦠I thought you were talking win32.
172 2013-02-19 02:10:40 <Luke-Jr> Win32
173 2013-02-19 02:11:05 <gavinandresen> no, our win32 bitcoin-qt.exe's didn't match
174 2013-02-19 02:11:24 <Luke-Jr> O.o
175 2013-02-19 02:11:48 * Luke-Jr pokes himself
176 2013-02-19 02:12:13 <gavinandresen> (daemon/bitcoind.exe's did, though, so it's not a problem with building leveldb any more)
177 2013-02-19 02:12:57 <Luke-Jr> ok, nevermind, I guess I was just epic failing or somethign
178 2013-02-19 02:13:29 <Luke-Jr> not quite sure how I messed up that diff
179 2013-02-19 02:14:14 <Luke-Jr> anyhow, if we ignore the -qt mismatch, we have 3 Win32 builds now
180 2013-02-19 02:15:07 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Ah. Bitcoin development visualized: http://i.imgur.com/cD8Y7fh.gif
181 2013-02-19 02:16:25 GMP has joined
182 2013-02-19 02:19:00 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: that's exactly right!
183 2013-02-19 02:19:51 <gmaxwell> (The reddit thread where I found that also linked to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WLwRg3erm4 â in that one the people rotate the front and rear tires while driving)
184 2013-02-19 02:20:10 BurtyBB has joined
185 2013-02-19 02:20:27 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: rofl
186 2013-02-19 02:22:32 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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188 2013-02-19 02:24:49 micah has joined
189 2013-02-19 02:25:12 <micah> what is the default rpcuser? ie. if I set rpcpassword but no user
190 2013-02-19 02:26:17 <gavinandresen> micah: empty string I think. But why wouldn't you set rpcuser?
191 2013-02-19 02:28:50 <micah> gavinandresen: was just wondering because I'm trying to debug why someone's bitcoind isn't responding
192 2013-02-19 02:28:56 <micah> and they had a passwd, but not a user
193 2013-02-19 02:29:10 <micah> i'm guessing it isn't responding because they haven't finished downloading the block chain
194 2013-02-19 02:30:33 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: why bother setting rpcuser? :P
195 2013-02-19 02:34:29 <gmaxwell> micah: it should respond while downloading the blockchain.
196 2013-02-19 02:35:14 <micah> gmaxwell: that is what I thought too... but it isn't listening on 8332
197 2013-02-19 02:35:35 <gmaxwell> if its not listening then its disabled.
198 2013-02-19 02:36:48 <micah> gmaxwell: this is the first time he ran bitcoin, and he's been downloading the blockchain for hours, so I've been trying to debug where it is at with him, but can't seem to query it
199 2013-02-19 02:41:16 paybitcoin has joined
200 2013-02-19 02:43:11 <Luke-Jr> micah: Bitcoin-Qt is not a JSON-RPC server by default, you need -server
201 2013-02-19 02:43:30 <micah> Luke-Jr: it is just the regular bitcoind
202 2013-02-19 02:43:55 <Luke-Jr> O.o
203 2013-02-19 02:44:02 <micah> at least I think so
204 2013-02-19 02:44:07 <micah> he did start with bitcoin-qt
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206 2013-02-19 02:44:09 <Luke-Jr> micah: AFAIK, it won't even start unless it succeeds in listening
207 2013-02-19 02:44:28 <micah> Luke-Jr: you are a genious, he is still running -qt
208 2013-02-19 02:45:02 <Luke-Jr> only reason I thought of it was gmaxwell's comment :p
209 2013-02-19 02:45:28 zooko has joined
210 2013-02-19 02:51:36 <SomeoneWeird> ;p;
211 2013-02-19 02:52:43 <gmaxwell> ah, I thought of that but then checked and saw "why someone's bitcoind" and didn't mention it. :)
212 2013-02-19 02:54:06 <gavinandresen> mmm⦠unzipped my old and new qt-win32-4.8.3-gitian-r1.zip's and every file inside matches (but the .zip files themselves have different shasums, so must contain a different date or something)
213 2013-02-19 02:54:18 * Luke-Jr facepalms
214 2013-02-19 02:54:25 <Luke-Jr> that should be easy to fix
215 2013-02-19 02:54:43 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: do the timestamps on the content files match?
216 2013-02-19 02:55:23 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: probably not, but I'm switching to looking at boost since timestamps on files shouldn't make bitcoin-qt.exe's mismatch
217 2013-02-19 02:55:33 <Luke-Jr> true
218 2013-02-19 02:56:03 jgarzik has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
219 2013-02-19 02:56:11 <gavinandresen> it would be nice to make the gitian-zip's checksums matchâ¦.
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223 2013-02-19 03:04:09 <gavinandresen> bah, every file in the old and new boost-win32-1.50.0-gitian2.zip match exactly, too. I give up for tonight.
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227 2013-02-19 03:12:14 <SomeoneWeird> gavin really needs a bounce
228 2013-02-19 03:12:16 <SomeoneWeird> lol
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250 2013-02-19 03:33:10 <micah> what is it that makes the blockchain download eat so much resources?
251 2013-02-19 03:33:38 <micah> i mean even with nice -n 19 ionice -c 3 it still causes a relatively powerful machine to choke
252 2013-02-19 03:34:21 <micah> it's writing like crazy to the DB files, but also asserting a lot of cache space in the ram, it's probably mmaping whole .dat files
253 2013-02-19 03:36:37 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
254 2013-02-19 03:37:20 <doublec> it fsyncs a bit I think which causes other apps on my machine to freeze periodically
255 2013-02-19 03:38:46 <gmaxwell> micah: what version of bitcoin are you talking about?
256 2013-02-19 03:39:30 <micah> gmaxwell: 0.7.2-3 (non-qt version now)
257 2013-02-19 03:39:37 <gmaxwell> If you mean <0.8 it's because of synchronous writes. If you're talking about 0.8 then I don't know what you're expirencing.
258 2013-02-19 03:40:03 <micah> ah so 0.8 has async writes?
259 2013-02-19 03:40:15 <gmaxwell> 0.8 has a lot of things.
260 2013-02-19 03:40:25 <micah> \o/
261 2013-02-19 03:41:28 etotheipi_ has joined
262 2013-02-19 03:42:11 <gmaxwell> petertodd: don't waste too much time on 2112.
263 2013-02-19 03:42:37 <micah> looks like 20% read, 20% write, 15% munmap, 12% open, 7% close
264 2013-02-19 03:42:43 owowo has joined
265 2013-02-19 03:42:49 <micah> based on strace -c
266 2013-02-19 03:42:52 <micah> http://paste.debian.net/235446/
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272 2013-02-19 03:50:40 <muhoo> micah: try running 0.8
273 2013-02-19 03:51:29 <Diablo-D3> heh I spy a micah
274 2013-02-19 03:53:35 fiesh has joined
275 2013-02-19 03:55:43 * micah raises eyebrows at Diablo-D3
276 2013-02-19 03:55:59 <Diablo-D3> fine, a hacim.
277 2013-02-19 03:56:37 <micah> :D
278 2013-02-19 03:56:51 <micah> been a while since I've been hanging around on the bitcoin irc channels
279 2013-02-19 03:57:04 <Diablo-D3> it hasnt changed
280 2013-02-19 03:57:45 <micah> Diablo-D3: still making your miner?
281 2013-02-19 03:57:54 <Diablo-D3> off and on
282 2013-02-19 03:58:06 <Diablo-D3> Im seriously thinking of throwing the entire codebase out and just rewriting it in C
283 2013-02-19 03:58:14 <Diablo-D3> hate java so much
284 2013-02-19 03:58:22 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: ever consider contributing to BFGMiner? <.<
285 2013-02-19 03:58:38 <micah> java needs to die :)
286 2013-02-19 03:58:51 <doublec> Luke-Jr: what does the "bfg" in bfgminer stand for?
287 2013-02-19 03:59:07 <Luke-Jr> doublec: St. Barbara's FPGA/GPU (Miner)
288 2013-02-19 03:59:23 <doublec> ah ok, thanks
289 2013-02-19 03:59:25 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: no
290 2013-02-19 03:59:33 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: and I'd contribute to cgminer not your trollfork
291 2013-02-19 03:59:48 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: I agree you'd fit in better with that group, but just thought I'd ask.
292 2013-02-19 03:59:55 <Diablo-D3> cgminer inherited all the design flaws in diablominer
293 2013-02-19 04:00:00 <Diablo-D3> and you inherited those flaws in turn
294 2013-02-19 04:00:12 <Luke-Jr> indeed, I've been rewriting a lot of code to overcome them
295 2013-02-19 04:00:18 Eagle[TM] has joined
296 2013-02-19 04:00:23 <Diablo-D3> you'd need to get rid of threads.
297 2013-02-19 04:00:28 <Diablo-D3> and that code just cant handle it
298 2013-02-19 04:00:29 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: already did that, mostly.
299 2013-02-19 04:00:48 <Luke-Jr> it still uses threads, but once it starts it's done spawning new ones
300 2013-02-19 04:00:57 <Diablo-D3> yeah, if I redo my code
301 2013-02-19 04:00:58 EagleTM has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
302 2013-02-19 04:01:00 <Diablo-D3> no threads
303 2013-02-19 04:01:08 <Diablo-D3> its all balls to the wall async networking
304 2013-02-19 04:01:18 <Luke-Jr> doublec: St. Barbara because patron of miners
305 2013-02-19 04:01:29 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: good luck doing that with libusb
306 2013-02-19 04:01:30 <doublec> Luke-Jr: makes sense :)
307 2013-02-19 04:01:38 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: well, remember
308 2013-02-19 04:01:41 <Diablo-D3> I dont support usb yet
309 2013-02-19 04:01:57 <Diablo-D3> I'd probably spawn seperate processes to baby sit devices though
310 2013-02-19 04:02:06 <Diablo-D3> and async communicate with them via pipe or some shit
311 2013-02-19 04:02:14 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: that sounds like a viable model
312 2013-02-19 04:02:35 <Diablo-D3> what keeps making miners fall over is the single process multi thread model
313 2013-02-19 04:02:47 <Diablo-D3> multiple processes, as skinny as possible, should keep the box up even if devices die
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318 2013-02-19 04:10:14 <micah> bfg doesn't = big fucking gun? :)
319 2013-02-19 04:10:21 <Diablo-D3> yes
320 2013-02-19 04:11:36 <Luke-Jr> micah: no :p
321 2013-02-19 04:12:28 <micah> Doom reference...
322 2013-02-19 04:17:46 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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331 2013-02-19 04:51:01 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I think I just learned my lesson that 2112 is crazy...
332 2013-02-19 04:51:25 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: seriously?
333 2013-02-19 04:51:44 <Luke-Jr> lol
334 2013-02-19 04:51:44 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: what was the final nail in the coffin for you?
335 2013-02-19 04:52:35 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
336 2013-02-19 04:53:15 <petertodd> I think the final nail was actually having like, one discussion with him... I don't follow the forums that closely...
337 2013-02-19 04:53:28 <Diablo-D3> lol
338 2013-02-19 04:53:48 <Diablo-D3> man, why does backing up 2TB take so loooooooooong
339 2013-02-19 04:54:16 <petertodd> Diabolo-D3: Probably because the fact that you can even store 2TB is proof we live in the fucking future.
340 2013-02-19 04:54:57 <Diablo-D3> I am not a Diabolo, I am a Diablo
341 2013-02-19 04:55:06 darkskiez has joined
342 2013-02-19 04:55:10 <Diablo-D3> wait, if thats the fucking future then
343 2013-02-19 04:55:39 <Diablo-D3> I have 2x400gb raid 1, 4x750gb raid 5 (= 2.1TB), one of those 750s is really a 2TB, and my external drive is 2TB, and another 2TB is coming in the mail
344 2013-02-19 04:55:46 <Diablo-D3> Im so far in the future I think I must be in Japan
345 2013-02-19 04:56:27 <petertodd> I have a theory that Satoshi was actually from Alabama, but figured if he admitted it no-one would believe him.
346 2013-02-19 04:57:01 <Diablo-D3> I wouldnt have
347 2013-02-19 04:57:16 <Diablo-D3> unless it was like, alabama quebec or something strange
348 2013-02-19 04:57:59 <petertodd> Yeah, I can imagine a revolutionary crypto-currency coming out of Quebec; French people are crazy.
349 2013-02-19 04:58:34 <Diablo-D3> they're not even real french people
350 2013-02-19 04:58:46 <Diablo-D3> france wont even accept them in as fellow fracophones
351 2013-02-19 04:59:10 <petertodd> Pff, what do you mean? It's those weirdo's in Paris that aren't real French people.
352 2013-02-19 04:59:28 <Diablo-D3> >french people
353 2013-02-19 04:59:30 <Diablo-D3> >in france
354 2013-02-19 04:59:33 <Diablo-D3> >not real french people
355 2013-02-19 04:59:38 <Diablo-D3> HAIL HITLER!
356 2013-02-19 04:59:40 paraipan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
357 2013-02-19 05:00:38 EagleTM has joined
358 2013-02-19 05:00:45 * petertodd is still bitter that France didn't do more than put up a struggle against overwhelming odds followed by years of underground resistance.
359 2013-02-19 05:01:39 Eagle[TM] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
360 2013-02-19 05:01:48 <Luke-Jr> [04:36:56] <Diablo-D3> I am not a Diabolo, I am a Diablo <-- lol, ouch
361 2013-02-19 05:03:03 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: yes, well, I dont blame them for not fighting the whole "french fries are not from france" thing
362 2013-02-19 05:03:10 <Diablo-D3> they're delicious
363 2013-02-19 05:04:41 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
364 2013-02-19 05:04:50 [7] has joined
365 2013-02-19 05:05:42 <petertodd> Ha, and poutine just gilds the lily, with a think layer of delicious and delicious.
366 2013-02-19 05:05:49 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
367 2013-02-19 05:05:50 Guest16639 has quit (Changing host)
368 2013-02-19 05:05:50 Guest16639 has joined
369 2013-02-19 05:05:52 Guest16639 is now known as jgarzik
370 2013-02-19 05:06:11 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: canada is going to hell for poutine
371 2013-02-19 05:06:12 AtashiCon has joined
372 2013-02-19 05:06:38 <Diablo-D3> it looks disgusting, it sounds disgusting, I bet it even smells disgusting
373 2013-02-19 05:07:25 <gjs278> turn on directio then you won't have to waste time polluting the page cache and flushing
374 2013-02-19 05:07:34 <petertodd> Yes, but in our cold weather you can't smell it anyway.
375 2013-02-19 05:08:08 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: see
376 2013-02-19 05:08:09 AtashiCon has quit (Client Quit)
377 2013-02-19 05:08:13 <Diablo-D3> I have this special recipe for sauce
378 2013-02-19 05:08:28 AtashiCon has joined
379 2013-02-19 05:08:29 <Diablo-D3> 1/4 thick bbq sauce, 1/4 thick steak sauce, 1/4 horseraddish mustard, 1/4 worshishire sauce
380 2013-02-19 05:08:40 <Diablo-D3> THICK worshishishsursheisre sauce
381 2013-02-19 05:08:51 <Diablo-D3> its perfect for burgers and fries
382 2013-02-19 05:09:04 <petertodd> You've invented a monster.
383 2013-02-19 05:09:19 <Diablo-D3> oh god its so delicious
384 2013-02-19 05:09:28 <Diablo-D3> you gotta be careful with the bbq sauce and steak sauce though
385 2013-02-19 05:09:36 <Diablo-D3> you want it more tangy than sweet
386 2013-02-19 05:09:37 <petertodd> Worcestershire sauce by itself is madness enough.
387 2013-02-19 05:11:42 <petertodd> ...you considered trying some vegimite in that mix?
388 2013-02-19 05:14:08 Jackneill has joined
389 2013-02-19 05:22:15 <Diablo-D3> not my kind of thing
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436 2013-02-19 05:48:28 <micah> mmmm poutine
437 2013-02-19 05:55:23 TradeFortress has joined
438 2013-02-19 05:55:39 <micah> hmm, 0.8 has a tag, but no release yet
439 2013-02-19 05:55:41 <TradeFortress> Can't compile bitcoind, internal compiler error: Kille (program cc1plus)
440 2013-02-19 05:55:47 <TradeFortress> make: *** [obj/main.o] Error 4
441 2013-02-19 05:56:11 <TradeFortress> is the master branch working?
442 2013-02-19 05:57:10 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
443 2013-02-19 05:57:45 <SomeoneWeird> try a tag
444 2013-02-19 05:59:17 d4de has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
445 2013-02-19 05:59:45 zooko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
446 2013-02-19 05:59:50 darkskiez has joined
447 2013-02-19 06:01:22 paybitcoin1 has joined
448 2013-02-19 06:03:27 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
449 2013-02-19 06:05:22 clarkm has quit (Quit: leaving)
450 2013-02-19 06:06:39 <gmaxwell> TradeFortress: thats your compiler crashingâ has nothing to do with bitcoin.
451 2013-02-19 06:06:49 <gmaxwell> Let me guess, you're trying to compile bitcoin on a small VPS?
452 2013-02-19 06:06:58 <gmaxwell> (say, something with 512mb ram and no swap?)
453 2013-02-19 06:07:16 <TradeFortress> gmaxwell, yeah amazon EC2 micro lol
454 2013-02-19 06:07:44 <gmaxwell> Yea, compile it on something with more ram and move the binary over. C++ compiling is very memory hungry.
455 2013-02-19 06:07:47 <gmaxwell> Or setup swap.
456 2013-02-19 06:07:51 <petertodd> TradeFortress: the easiest thing to do is temporarily upgrade the VPS to a faster one, compile, and then downgrade.
457 2013-02-19 06:08:06 <TradeFortress> Got it, thanks
458 2013-02-19 06:08:16 paybitcoin has joined
459 2013-02-19 06:09:45 <phantomcircuit> TradeFortress, you're not going to be able to run a bitcoind node on a micro
460 2013-02-19 06:09:56 <phantomcircuit> you need at least 512 mb of ram for the initial blockchain sync
461 2013-02-19 06:10:00 paybitcoin1 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
462 2013-02-19 06:10:28 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Actually it's quite possible to do so once you sync. The trick is to turn the # of connections down with the -maxconnections setting.
463 2013-02-19 06:10:34 <TradeFortress> phantomcircuit, thanks, I'll bump it up
464 2013-02-19 06:10:38 <TradeFortress> :)
465 2013-02-19 06:10:45 <petertodd> I have a 0.7 node running on a micro node right now with no problems.
466 2013-02-19 06:11:08 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
467 2013-02-19 06:13:48 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you should be able to without issue, you may need to reduce connections and adjust dbcache for maxium goodness but it should be okay now.
468 2013-02-19 06:14:31 <phantomcircuit> at the very least you're going to be hitting swap without 512 mb of free ram
469 2013-02-19 06:14:42 <phantomcircuit> which will significantly delay sync
470 2013-02-19 06:15:10 <phantomcircuit> personally i download the blockchain on my workstation on a tmpfs and copy it to low memory environemnts
471 2013-02-19 06:16:43 zooko has joined
472 2013-02-19 06:21:57 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: one connection node here on x86_64 is using 160mb here.
473 2013-02-19 06:23:07 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's fully synced though right?
474 2013-02-19 06:23:23 <phantomcircuit> during initial sync memory usuage is swollen\
475 2013-02-19 06:23:39 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: not if you tweak -dbcache
476 2013-02-19 06:25:29 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it shouldnt be if you tweak dbcache, and if it is we ought to figure out why and fix it.
477 2013-02-19 06:25:37 <phantomcircuit> maybe but either way you're going to slow things down
478 2013-02-19 06:26:11 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: do you have any 0.8 nodes running on x86? How much VM are they using?
479 2013-02-19 06:26:28 <phantomcircuit> oh and uh if you notice a lot of connections from an ovh ip
480 2013-02-19 06:26:30 <phantomcircuit> just ignore it
481 2013-02-19 06:26:37 <phantomcircuit> i promise not to break anythign
482 2013-02-19 06:27:11 <SomeoneWeird> lols
483 2013-02-19 06:28:44 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
484 2013-02-19 06:28:46 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ps reports SIZE=1,325,532
485 2013-02-19 06:29:00 <Luke-Jr> whether that's GB or MB I have nfc
486 2013-02-19 06:29:15 <Luke-Jr> for comparison, bash is 428 and grep is 244
487 2013-02-19 06:29:28 <muhoo> kb
488 2013-02-19 06:34:55 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: why do you care how much vm they are using?
489 2013-02-19 06:35:04 <Diablo-D3> vm has no bearing on how much an app uses
490 2013-02-19 06:35:12 <Diablo-D3> only res/rss does
491 2013-02-19 06:35:55 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: gmaxwell is talking about x86-32, where the 4GiB limit could be a problem
492 2013-02-19 06:36:20 <Diablo-D3> 4gb? no, 2.
493 2013-02-19 06:36:30 <petertodd> oh, yes, good point
494 2013-02-19 06:36:36 <petertodd> (stupid kernel)
495 2013-02-19 06:36:40 <Diablo-D3> and it doesnt matter how much you mmap
496 2013-02-19 06:36:54 <petertodd> why not?
497 2013-02-19 06:37:25 <Diablo-D3> as far as I can tell you CAN mmap an anonymous map >2gb on 32 bit and it still works
498 2013-02-19 06:37:28 <Diablo-D3> just dont try to use more than that
499 2013-02-19 06:37:41 <Diablo-D3> (that said, I have a slab allocator impl, it just mmaps 2gb and thats it)
500 2013-02-19 06:37:58 <petertodd> yeah, the limit isn't really 2GiB, the kernel uses less than that
501 2013-02-19 06:38:13 <Diablo-D3> 2gb is easy though
502 2013-02-19 06:38:14 <petertodd> but there still is a limit - mmapping all the block data won't work for instance
503 2013-02-19 06:38:15 <Diablo-D3> its 2**31
504 2013-02-19 06:38:24 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: aaacttuallly
505 2013-02-19 06:38:25 <Diablo-D3> it will
506 2013-02-19 06:38:27 <Diablo-D3> its on disk
507 2013-02-19 06:38:53 <petertodd> That has nothing to do with it. mmap uses VM space, and you only have 4GiB - kernel memory to play with on x32
508 2013-02-19 06:39:00 <Diablo-D3> thats not what I mean
509 2013-02-19 06:39:05 <petertodd> (per process)
510 2013-02-19 06:39:12 <Diablo-D3> you can use fseek64 somewhere in there
511 2013-02-19 06:39:32 <petertodd> Sure, but then you aren't mmapping the whole file.
512 2013-02-19 06:39:33 <Diablo-D3> its been awhile since I had to do that, so I forget exactly what needs to be done
513 2013-02-19 06:39:37 <Diablo-D3> no, you're not
514 2013-02-19 06:39:51 <Diablo-D3> but you can still mmap it =P
515 2013-02-19 06:40:09 <petertodd> (there are some x32 extensions that do paging, but IIRC they aren't very well supported in userspace)
516 2013-02-19 06:40:14 JDuke128 has joined
517 2013-02-19 06:40:34 <Diablo-D3> yeah I wonder why you cant somehow use pae to solve this
518 2013-02-19 06:40:35 * petertodd goes of an mmaps a file, one page at a time.
519 2013-02-19 06:41:07 grau has joined
520 2013-02-19 06:41:07 <coingenuity> detected spam
521 2013-02-19 06:41:10 <petertodd> The kernel uses pae, but you'd need a lot of code to enable userspace pae. Dunno that code has been written yet.
522 2013-02-19 06:41:10 <coingenuity> detected spam
523 2013-02-19 06:41:31 <Diablo-D3> easier to just use 64bit really
524 2013-02-19 06:41:37 <petertodd> Yup.
525 2013-02-19 06:41:51 <petertodd> Even $100 computers support 64bit these days.
526 2013-02-19 06:44:01 MC1984 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
527 2013-02-19 06:44:17 MC1984 has joined
528 2013-02-19 06:44:21 <gmaxwell> In any case, thats bad.
529 2013-02-19 06:44:31 <gmaxwell> Anyone know if the fragmentation is that bad on windows?
530 2013-02-19 06:44:38 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: yes
531 2013-02-19 06:44:40 <Diablo-D3> even in 8
532 2013-02-19 06:44:44 <gmaxwell> You can clear it up on linux by LD_PRELOADing TC malloc.
533 2013-02-19 06:45:04 <gmaxwell> (or jemalloc for that matter)
534 2013-02-19 06:45:24 <Diablo-D3> this is why I like my slab alloc
535 2013-02-19 06:45:28 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt fragment system memory
536 2013-02-19 06:45:50 <gmaxwell> Thats basically what jemalloc is (and I assume tcmalloc, though I'd not looked inside it much)
537 2013-02-19 06:46:06 <Diablo-D3> yeah, Ive seen the internals of jemalloc
538 2013-02-19 06:46:13 <Diablo-D3> problem is, it adds all this crap on top
539 2013-02-19 06:46:19 <Diablo-D3> like thread safety
540 2013-02-19 06:46:40 <gmaxwell> I keep expecting that getting rid of the insane little short lived heap allocations would also improve performance, but anywhere I've tried doing that in bitcoin it hasn't seemed to matter much.
541 2013-02-19 06:46:49 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yea, well, we need that. :P
542 2013-02-19 06:47:00 <Diablo-D3> yes, but I dont =P
543 2013-02-19 06:47:07 <Diablo-D3> I have rejected threads.
544 2013-02-19 06:47:26 <Diablo-D3> btw, why the fuck are you allocating heap temporarily?
545 2013-02-19 06:47:30 <Diablo-D3> allocate it on the stack
546 2013-02-19 06:47:30 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I
547 2013-02-19 06:47:59 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'll bet you the performance problems of insane little short-lived heap allocations are well known, so malloc is designed to support that case efficiently...
548 2013-02-19 06:48:10 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: it does BUT
549 2013-02-19 06:48:15 <Diablo-D3> not calling malloc at all is faster yet
550 2013-02-19 06:48:28 <petertodd> gmaxwell: HLL's use the heap a lot after all; Python for instance, and it uses malloc directly IIRC.
551 2013-02-19 06:48:43 <Diablo-D3> default malloc impls arent too swift though
552 2013-02-19 06:49:01 <Diablo-D3> like, glibc's isnt a slab allocator
553 2013-02-19 06:49:05 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: Sure if you can avoid it, like with stack allocation, but as I say the performance hit might not be as bad as you'd think.
554 2013-02-19 06:49:21 <Diablo-D3> it'll happily split pages into all sorts of strange non-power-of-two sizes
555 2013-02-19 06:49:33 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: Ive done heavy research into this
556 2013-02-19 06:49:46 <Diablo-D3> gcc basically takes malloc calls apart if it can
557 2013-02-19 06:49:57 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: I haven't, so don't take my word for it. :P
558 2013-02-19 06:50:02 <Diablo-D3> when it cant, you're stuck with the horror that is the default malloc
559 2013-02-19 06:50:04 <gmaxwell> petertodd: if it were supporting them efficiently it wouldn't get fragmented all to heck and thus us a _ton_ of VM.
560 2013-02-19 06:50:26 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: yeah thats nuts, wtf are you doing
561 2013-02-19 06:51:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Right, but that can easily be a micro-optimization vs. macro problem. IE, taking some out doesn't change things much, because the per-allocation cost isn't high. But anyway, it's not like I've researched this much myself.
562 2013-02-19 06:51:15 root2_ is now known as root2
563 2013-02-19 06:51:25 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: unless there is some mystery cause I think it's just the zillion and one short lived C++ container objects. Tc/je eliminate most of the bloat.
564 2013-02-19 06:51:41 <Diablo-D3> meh
565 2013-02-19 06:51:45 <Diablo-D3> this is why I dont use c++
566 2013-02-19 06:51:53 <Diablo-D3> c++ has no concept of stack allocation
567 2013-02-19 06:51:55 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well, you're obviously objectively right. Because none of it seems to matter much...
568 2013-02-19 06:52:04 <Diablo-D3> well, c++ programmers dont, anyways
569 2013-02-19 06:52:31 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Lol, technically correct, the best kind... gah.
570 2013-02-19 06:53:11 <Diablo-D3> btw, best part about my slab alloc? it keeps split pages around for reuse, an the linked list of those is insert at head instead of tail
571 2013-02-19 06:53:18 <Diablo-D3> ergo, the page could still be in cpu cache so lets reuse it
572 2013-02-19 06:54:33 <Diablo-D3> (this is why I hate designs that zero out pages at free instead of malloc, it fails to trigger useful cache behavior)
573 2013-02-19 06:55:35 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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576 2013-02-19 06:56:07 <Diablo-D3> btw, unrelated but
577 2013-02-19 06:56:36 <Diablo-D3> gcc refuses to line vaargs functions, even if its in the same unit and the args are known at compile time
578 2013-02-19 06:57:58 <Diablo-D3> *inline
579 2013-02-19 06:58:15 <Diablo-D3> __attribute__((always_inline)), it does nothing!
580 2013-02-19 06:59:21 <Diablo-D3> the best part is
581 2013-02-19 06:59:33 <Diablo-D3> gcc'll inline printf magic.
582 2013-02-19 07:00:58 <Diablo-D3> it wont inline a vaargs function that just calls vprintf eventually
583 2013-02-19 07:02:38 m00p has quit (Quit: Leaving)
584 2013-02-19 07:06:03 <petertodd> Special-cased optimization is an ugly beast...
585 2013-02-19 07:08:08 jdnavarro has joined
586 2013-02-19 07:08:30 <Diablo-D3> well
587 2013-02-19 07:08:38 <Diablo-D3> even if I apply the printf attribute to it
588 2013-02-19 07:08:40 <Diablo-D3> it wont do it
589 2013-02-19 07:09:54 <petertodd> Weird. Read the GCC source?
590 2013-02-19 07:10:01 <Diablo-D3> hell no
591 2013-02-19 07:10:14 <petertodd> You sound scarred.
592 2013-02-19 07:10:19 <Diablo-D3> what little sanity I have left I wish to hold onto
593 2013-02-19 07:11:05 <Diablo-D3> anyhow, going to bed
594 2013-02-19 07:11:09 <petertodd> night
595 2013-02-19 07:11:12 <Diablo-D3> hopefully this backup will be done when I wake up
596 2013-02-19 07:12:06 <petertodd> heh, mine too, I've got like a million itty-bitty files and it's taking for ever...
597 2013-02-19 07:12:44 <petertodd> a few dozen ops/second isn't cutting it, need more flash storage
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646 2013-02-19 09:30:55 <sipa> ;;later tell gavinandresen full match on 0.8.0; sigs pushed
647 2013-02-19 09:30:55 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
648 2013-02-19 09:31:54 <jouke> :)
649 2013-02-19 09:33:35 [ken] has joined
650 2013-02-19 09:34:12 <SomeoneWeird> woo
651 2013-02-19 09:34:14 <SomeoneWeird> lol
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663 2013-02-19 10:02:34 <jouke> When bitcoind receives a doublespend transaction it will say it is not valid, but will I be able to get the transaction details of the not-valid transaction?
664 2013-02-19 10:03:32 <sipa> no, it's simply ignored
665 2013-02-19 10:03:37 <sipa> and not relayed
666 2013-02-19 10:03:47 <sipa> so chances are high you won't ever see it
667 2013-02-19 10:04:03 <jouke> Ok, thanks! :)
668 2013-02-19 10:04:19 ov has joined
669 2013-02-19 10:06:17 <jouke> not-valid >_<
670 2013-02-19 10:06:41 <sipa> ?
671 2013-02-19 10:07:08 <jouke> invalid
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683 2013-02-19 10:24:43 <epscy> sipa: what if the first tx has no fee and the second one does
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688 2013-02-19 10:31:27 <sipa> epscy: even then
689 2013-02-19 10:31:41 <sipa> epscy: doing it otherwise would make double spend attacks ridiculously more easy
690 2013-02-19 10:31:55 <epscy> right
691 2013-02-19 10:35:40 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
692 2013-02-19 10:37:46 <gmaxwell> Miners may eventually change their behavior thereâ unlike some other things where the defaults being altrustic are effective, that one is pretty fragle. Even a few miners doing that is almost as bad as all miners doing it.
693 2013-02-19 10:37:53 MrTiggr has joined
694 2013-02-19 10:40:30 <petertodd> epscy: Probably the biggest reason miners don't is because they would have to write code to enable the double spends, yet there is no guarantee of a market to make the effort worthwhile.
695 2013-02-19 10:41:03 <petertodd> You also need to make some nodes known so people know where to send the double-spending transactions; they won't get relayed by the normal codebase.
696 2013-02-19 10:41:25 <jouke> Hmmm, you should be able to exclude nodes.
697 2013-02-19 10:41:53 <jouke> hmm, I am not sure what that solves.
698 2013-02-19 10:42:07 <petertodd> I suspect if anyone actually did this they'd have to setup a tor site explaining it all, and then have access to a decent-sized pile of mining capacity to make it worthwhile. A pool isn't good, because miners would likely jump to other pools after hearing about the dishonesty.
699 2013-02-19 10:42:32 <petertodd> Someone with some ASICs could, but why bother, they'd be making a huge amount just mining with them as is, so why risk it?
700 2013-02-19 10:42:53 <petertodd> *by some, a lot of ASCIs...
701 2013-02-19 10:42:56 <gmaxwell> petertodd: nah, most evil is boring. "Uberpool GETS YOU THE MOSTEST INCOME BY MINING THE TRANSACTIONS WITH THE HIGEST FEES! MINE HERE NOW! PROFIT PROFIT PROFIT!"
702 2013-02-19 10:43:18 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I suggest you start uberpool then. :)
703 2013-02-19 10:43:33 Hasimir- has joined
704 2013-02-19 10:43:37 <gmaxwell> Alas, I'm not coin operated.
705 2013-02-19 10:43:40 <petertodd> (of course, the Pirate did exactly that, but I haven't seen any evidence he used it to do double-spends)
706 2013-02-19 10:44:00 darkskiez has joined
707 2013-02-19 10:44:01 * petertodd thinks gmaxwell is an economically irrational actor.
708 2013-02-19 10:44:17 <gmaxwell> I am an economically irrational actor, in fact.
709 2013-02-19 10:44:25 <petertodd> Me too. :P
710 2013-02-19 10:45:42 Hasimir has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
711 2013-02-19 10:47:10 <sipa> an economically rational actor can always be brided (for the right amount), no?
712 2013-02-19 10:47:53 <petertodd> Well, lets test your theory and ask jgarzik to mine us some satoshidice double-spends
713 2013-02-19 10:48:54 <gmaxwell> You might want to choose a more sympathetic victim there.
714 2013-02-19 10:49:57 <petertodd> Alright, blockchain.info's mixer.
715 2013-02-19 10:50:29 <gmaxwell> well, pirates thing wasn't uniqueâ see hashpower.
716 2013-02-19 10:51:02 <petertodd> Interesting, never heard of hashpower before.
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740 2013-02-19 12:23:59 neo has joined
741 2013-02-19 12:24:04 <neo> Hi There.
742 2013-02-19 12:24:22 neo is now known as Guest55601
743 2013-02-19 12:24:39 <Guest55601> Anyone have any idea how can we min bitcoin on a linux web server?
744 2013-02-19 12:25:42 <SomeoneWeird> you can't
745 2013-02-19 12:25:56 <Guest55601> thanks
746 2013-02-19 12:26:07 <Guest55601> So if possible on any webserver?
747 2013-02-19 12:26:12 <SomeoneWeird> nope
748 2013-02-19 12:26:52 <Guest55601> I am trying to use proxy with GUI miner and Slush's pool
749 2013-02-19 12:27:05 <SomeoneWeird> what are you mining on?
750 2013-02-19 12:27:27 <Guest55601> Not sure what it.
751 2013-02-19 12:27:35 <Guest55601> Sorry very new to the thing
752 2013-02-19 12:28:24 <Guest55601> Not sure where to change the link of proxy in the GUIminer
753 2013-02-19 12:29:56 <Guest55601> I am talking abut this http://mining.bitcoin.cz/mining-proxy-howto
754 2013-02-19 12:32:34 JZavala has joined
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756 2013-02-19 12:37:25 Sacrelicious has joined
757 2013-02-19 12:37:41 <SomeoneWeird> what graphics card do you have?
758 2013-02-19 12:37:49 <SomeoneWeird> (on the computer you're trying to run guiminer on)
759 2013-02-19 12:38:09 drizztbsd has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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762 2013-02-19 12:48:57 <t7> Guest26812, how many rooted servers do you have? if it like 1000 it might be worth it
763 2013-02-19 12:50:58 * Luke-Jr wonders how long until t7 gets banned
764 2013-02-19 12:51:33 <Luke-Jr> Guest26812: off-topic here, #bitcoin-mining ; do answer quickly, mining requires custom hardware now (ASICs) and mere computers or graphics cards aren't very useful
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768 2013-02-19 12:52:03 <Hasimir> you have the wrong guest
769 2013-02-19 12:52:06 <Hasimir> I'm not a miner
770 2013-02-19 12:52:29 <Hasimir> you were after this one: [23:16:18] * Guest55601 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
771 2013-02-19 12:54:31 <SomeoneWeird> t7, wow, really.
772 2013-02-19 12:54:45 <t7> wut?
773 2013-02-19 12:55:02 <t7> bitcoin cant buy you a sense of humour?
774 2013-02-19 12:55:45 <SomeoneWeird> >.<
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783 2013-02-19 13:30:41 <Tritonio> Does anyone know if I can get the weighted average BTC/USD as displayed on MT Gox's top bar using some API? API v0 and v1 return a different average and v3 needs authentication which needs a verified account AFAIK and I don't intend to make one...
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864 2013-02-19 16:24:09 alexwaters has joined
865 2013-02-19 16:32:14 <alexwaters> does bluematt's jenkins run builds from each pull-request anymore? I only see one job in the dashboard
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867 2013-02-19 16:32:39 <sipa> alexwaters: iirc, the pullrequest builds are not done by jenkins
868 2013-02-19 16:32:47 <alexwaters> hmm
869 2013-02-19 16:32:59 tonikt has joined
870 2013-02-19 16:33:34 <alexwaters> it looks like he has a lighttpd server serving a list of them, but I don't know how they're generated
871 2013-02-19 16:34:22 <sipa> some script that loops over requests
872 2013-02-19 16:34:33 <sipa> and tries building those that are modified
873 2013-02-19 16:35:59 HM has joined
874 2013-02-19 16:36:47 <alexwaters> i only ask because i'm working on something that will use them. and I would like to know which pull they reference, and if any tests are run (like check if rebased)
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883 2013-02-19 16:44:16 <gavinandresen> alexwaters: pull-tester stuff is at https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/test-scripts/
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886 2013-02-19 16:45:45 <gavinandresen> alexwaters: ⦠except for the github integration code, which contains the pulltester's authentication tokens so can't be open source
887 2013-02-19 16:46:23 t7 has joined
888 2013-02-19 16:48:14 <alexwaters> gavinandresen: awesome, thank you
889 2013-02-19 16:51:33 <TD> good morning
890 2013-02-19 16:52:41 grau has joined
891 2013-02-19 16:53:11 <gavinandresen> good morning TD.
892 2013-02-19 16:57:30 <gavinandresen> sipa: do you still have the build inputs you used to create your first 0.8.0 build? My builds are stubbornly 100% reproducible this morning.
893 2013-02-19 16:58:04 paraipan has joined
894 2013-02-19 16:59:17 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
895 2013-02-19 16:59:27 <sipa> gavinandresen: no
896 2013-02-19 17:00:09 <sipa> gavinandresen: changing my boost build to yours didn't change my resulting binary though
897 2013-02-19 17:00:12 <sipa> only qt did
898 2013-02-19 17:00:26 <gavinandresen> good to know
899 2013-02-19 17:00:45 <TD> BlueMatt: i think there may have been an issue with the formula used to calculate nHashFuncs in bitcoinj. there was a missing (double) cast on the right hand side of the division. i think it means the result may have been incorrectly rounded at that point. FindBugs found it.
900 2013-02-19 17:01:26 Guest8866 has joined
901 2013-02-19 17:02:27 <sipa> gavinandresen: i vaguely remember being lazy at some point and doing a copy between two gitian inputs at some point - may have been from 4.8.2 to 4.8.3
902 2013-02-19 17:02:36 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
903 2013-02-19 17:02:47 <sipa> perhaps i should try doing a qt build myself, and redoing the 0.8.0 at some point
904 2013-02-19 17:03:22 <gavinandresen> sipa: that'd be helpful. I get different checksums for the .zips, but identical files in the .zips and identical bitcon-qt.exe's
905 2013-02-19 17:03:53 andytoshi has joined
906 2013-02-19 17:04:16 <gavinandresen> (TODO: figure out why the zips have different checksums and fix that part of the gitian build⦠probably just changing file timestamps before zipping everything up)
907 2013-02-19 17:04:51 <gavinandresen> Right now, I'm going to codesign the windows setup and OSX .app, then upload binaries to sourceforge.
908 2013-02-19 17:04:57 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: "a hacked Electrum download server could feed you an evil executable" <-- same for other clients :)
909 2013-02-19 17:06:26 <gavinandresen> TD: RE: code signing: codesigning the executable inside the -setup.exe or the .App : pro would be slightly happier anti-virus detectors. con would be a checksum mismatch against the gitian-built binaries. I think the con outweighs the pro, because the gitian checksum is a second line of defense....
910 2013-02-19 17:06:48 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: true, excellent point
911 2013-02-19 17:07:52 <ThomasV> lol
912 2013-02-19 17:08:37 <Luke-Jr> second? first IMO
913 2013-02-19 17:08:50 HM has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
914 2013-02-19 17:08:57 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: ⦠although code-signing does help protect against Evil Binaries.
915 2013-02-19 17:09:17 <sipa> in theory, gitian is a much nicer mechanism
916 2013-02-19 17:09:30 <sipa> in practice, much more people will be doing validations based on code signing
917 2013-02-19 17:10:19 <sipa> gavinandresen: one comment about release notes: due to the reduced working set, you need less memory for the same performance, but it's not actually true that 0.8 uses less memory than 0.7
918 2013-02-19 17:10:24 <sipa> by default
919 2013-02-19 17:10:29 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: binaries are signed by their creators (slush and animazing). slush is also working on a deterministic compilation method, so that his binaries can be checked by other people
920 2013-02-19 17:10:29 HM has joined
921 2013-02-19 17:10:51 bitafterbit has joined
922 2013-02-19 17:11:21 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
923 2013-02-19 17:11:30 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: signed⦠how? Y'all have an X.509 code-signing cert, or you gpg-signing? As sipa says, most users will just click-and-download and rely on their OS to keep them safe.
924 2013-02-19 17:11:59 <ThomasV> right, for the moment we only gpg sign
925 2013-02-19 17:12:03 MobPhone_ has quit (Quit: -a-)
926 2013-02-19 17:13:39 <ThomasV> omg price is > 29
927 2013-02-19 17:13:41 <gavinandresen> With OSX's GateKeeper and Windows AuthentiTrustedCode (or whatever they call it) it's getting really important to get an Official Code Signing Keyâ¦.
928 2013-02-19 17:14:12 <sipa> gavinandresen: you don't have one?
929 2013-02-19 17:14:19 <gavinandresen> don't have one what?
930 2013-02-19 17:14:21 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: yes. we have funds to buy one
931 2013-02-19 17:14:32 <sipa> oh, you're talking about electrum
932 2013-02-19 17:14:41 <TD> gavinandresen: hum. i thought the gitian toolchain would erase the signature field before checking?
933 2013-02-19 17:14:49 <TD> seems like a simple fix
934 2013-02-19 17:15:12 <TD> sipa: well, the next step after gitian is to split the code signing keys
935 2013-02-19 17:15:26 <gavinandresen> TD: nope. Patches welcome. Erasing a signature inside a binary inside an . app or setup.exe doesn't sound entirely trivial to me
936 2013-02-19 17:15:29 <TD> but that's harder. i've yet to find a threshold RSA implementation. just papers explaining how to do it.
937 2013-02-19 17:15:48 <TD> gavinandresen: you find it and then set those bytes to zero. but yeah walking the headers involves a bit of code. i've done it before.
938 2013-02-19 17:15:48 <gavinandresen> TD: Seems like Verisign was offering that
939 2013-02-19 17:15:57 <TD> oh, they have a commercial implementation?
940 2013-02-19 17:16:58 <gavinandresen> TD: I ran across some marketing-speak at I-think-it-was-Verisign for what looked like split code signing keys
941 2013-02-19 17:17:57 <gavinandresen> TD: ⦠although I'm probably mis-remembering and it was split PKI root certificates
942 2013-02-19 17:19:14 random_cat has joined
943 2013-02-19 17:19:31 <gavinandresen> In any case⦠yes, it would be a nifty project for somebody to make it possible for us to code-sign with a certificate based on a (say) 2-of-5 split key.
944 2013-02-19 17:20:13 <TD> hm
945 2013-02-19 17:20:15 <TD> yeah
946 2013-02-19 17:22:56 <Pucilowski> How can I use blockchain.info to give me a transaction in its raw hex form?
947 2013-02-19 17:24:29 <jgarzik> Pucilowski: this isn't really the best forum for website support questions
948 2013-02-19 17:24:43 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
949 2013-02-19 17:26:53 pumpkin has joined
950 2013-02-19 17:26:53 copumpkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
951 2013-02-19 17:27:44 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
952 2013-02-19 17:27:45 pumpkin is now known as copumpkin
953 2013-02-19 17:27:55 ielo has joined
954 2013-02-19 17:30:52 <TD> http://googleblog.blogspot.ch/2013/02/an-update-on-our-war-against-account.html
955 2013-02-19 17:31:11 <TD> my non-bitcoin work, in a blog post! :)
956 2013-02-19 17:31:46 JDuke128 has joined
957 2013-02-19 17:32:46 <gavinandresen> TD: grumble grumble giving me more interesting things to think about when my TODO list is already too longâ¦.
958 2013-02-19 17:33:15 <TD> isn't everyones? :)
959 2013-02-19 17:33:17 <gavinandresen> sipa: tweaked the release notes to say "â¦uses less working memory and does much less I/O"
960 2013-02-19 17:33:34 micah has left ()
961 2013-02-19 17:34:34 <gavinandresen> I also removed the mention of -dbcache from the top of the release notes, so we should see fewer out-of-memory problems.
962 2013-02-19 17:37:25 <sipa> good
963 2013-02-19 17:37:30 <sipa> though it's still mentioned?
964 2013-02-19 17:38:05 <gavinandresen> Yes, under New/changed settings. We could un-document it....
965 2013-02-19 17:38:44 <SomeoneWeird> TD, you work for google?
966 2013-02-19 17:38:50 <sipa> as things are, -dbcache mostly has an effect on IBD time, and not so much on normal performance
967 2013-02-19 17:39:17 <TD> SomeoneWeird: yeah
968 2013-02-19 17:39:27 <SomeoneWeird> sweet
969 2013-02-19 17:43:01 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I'm tempted to reply "MtGox" >_<
970 2013-02-19 17:43:41 <sipa> Luke-Jr: if you're talking about that JSON-RPC issue: he has a point
971 2013-02-19 17:43:51 FredEE has joined
972 2013-02-19 17:46:21 t7 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
973 2013-02-19 17:52:13 <phantomcircuit> TD, you wouldn't happen to know the incident rate of people setting up 2 factor auth and then losing their phone/whatever and being screwed would you?
974 2013-02-19 17:52:26 ThomasV has joined
975 2013-02-19 17:53:19 meLon has joined
976 2013-02-19 17:53:26 <TD> high
977 2013-02-19 17:53:37 <phantomcircuit> that's what i figured
978 2013-02-19 17:53:37 <TD> the actual numbers, i know out of date figures but they're confidential
979 2013-02-19 17:53:52 <phantomcircuit> users be dumb :/
980 2013-02-19 17:54:16 <phantomcircuit> is there anything people can do when that happens? or are they just screwed
981 2013-02-19 17:54:34 <TD> yes
982 2013-02-19 17:54:37 <TD> there are still ways you can recover
983 2013-02-19 17:54:46 <phantomcircuit> also what the hell i was just directed to google.fr when i clicked sign out
984 2013-02-19 17:55:31 <phantomcircuit> call someone and start crying? :P
985 2013-02-19 17:56:05 <muhoo> call?
986 2013-02-19 17:56:14 <SomeoneWeird> whats call
987 2013-02-19 17:56:18 <SomeoneWeird> is that like hitech irc
988 2013-02-19 17:56:50 <TD> phantomcircuit: sorta. it's complicated. there are lots of rules
989 2013-02-19 17:57:12 <phantomcircuit> i can imagine that would be a complicated procedure and probably something you dont want to tell people
990 2013-02-19 17:57:15 <phantomcircuit> so i'll stop asking
991 2013-02-19 17:57:28 <TD> right. 2SV is a lot more complicated than it looks
992 2013-02-19 17:57:38 <TD> it's not just good guys losing their phones. it's bad guys adding 2SV to keep control of accounts they've hacked
993 2013-02-19 17:58:11 <phantomcircuit> account logout is disconcerting with RequestPolicy all the redirects to signout of youtube
994 2013-02-19 17:58:42 quantumi has left ()
995 2013-02-19 17:58:49 <phantomcircuit> TD, heh i've actually seen 2SV setup so you could add it to anybodies account
996 2013-02-19 17:58:54 <phantomcircuit> oh rails you so silly
997 2013-02-19 17:58:57 <TD> that's single-sign-on for you
998 2013-02-19 18:00:52 <phantomcircuit> btw a suggestion the backup codes you can print dont have the account name on the print out
999 2013-02-19 18:01:21 <gavinandresen> 0.8.0 release signed and uploaded: https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/
1000 2013-02-19 18:01:24 <TD> ok
1001 2013-02-19 18:01:46 * gavinandresen notices the OSX binary didn't upload....
1002 2013-02-19 18:01:47 <TD> blog post and 0.8.0 out simultaneously, high fives all round
1003 2013-02-19 18:01:57 i2pRelay has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1004 2013-02-19 18:03:12 <sipa> \o/
1005 2013-02-19 18:04:56 <muhoo> nice work
1006 2013-02-19 18:05:23 i2pRelay has joined
1007 2013-02-19 18:06:12 occulta has joined
1008 2013-02-19 18:07:00 <andytoshi> congrats guys
1009 2013-02-19 18:07:53 jdnavarro has joined
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1011 2013-02-19 18:11:49 <gavinandresen> Can I get some volunteers to sanity-test the downloads while I eat lunch? Just make sure they actually download and run and say they are "version 0.8.0 beta" (make sure I didn't accidently upload the wrong thing).
1012 2013-02-19 18:12:28 <helo> no
1013 2013-02-19 18:13:38 <phantomcircuit> helo, play nice or dont play at all
1014 2013-02-19 18:14:36 <helo> lol joking...
1015 2013-02-19 18:15:43 <helo> linux tarballs look good
1016 2013-02-19 18:16:50 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1017 2013-02-19 18:18:53 <MC1984> link then?
1018 2013-02-19 18:19:18 <MC1984> derp i got it
1019 2013-02-19 18:19:21 <sipa> 18:43:20 < gavinandresen> 0.8.0 release signed and uploaded: https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/
1020 2013-02-19 18:19:48 <helo> should i be surprised to see "Error initializing database environment ... <backup instructions>" when starting 0.8.0? git head runs fine
1021 2013-02-19 18:21:44 <helo> no i shouldn't... different bdb i'm sure
1022 2013-02-19 18:24:53 <sipa> yeah
1023 2013-02-19 18:29:31 nus- is now known as nus
1024 2013-02-19 18:29:43 sroecker has joined
1025 2013-02-19 18:29:43 <coingenuity> spam detected
1026 2013-02-19 18:31:18 <sipa> ?
1027 2013-02-19 18:31:48 <coingenuity> er, sorry
1028 2013-02-19 18:31:53 <coingenuity> thing needs to be turned down even more
1029 2013-02-19 18:32:41 <coingenuity> sipa: there's been some bots targeting bitcoin channel users
1030 2013-02-19 18:33:08 <coingenuity> generally will spam in-channel, but a few of them are doing a PM-blast
1031 2013-02-19 18:34:18 <hsy> ok, 0.8.0 loads, but since the unity menu is broken, no idea if the version number is correct ;-)
1032 2013-02-19 18:34:38 swappermall has joined
1033 2013-02-19 18:34:40 <sipa> hsy: check debug.log
1034 2013-02-19 18:35:03 toffoo has joined
1035 2013-02-19 18:35:28 <hsy> v0.8.0-beta (2013-02-18 18:38:34 -0500)
1036 2013-02-19 18:39:23 Eslbaer has joined
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1038 2013-02-19 18:42:27 daybyter has joined
1039 2013-02-19 18:44:07 sroecker has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1040 2013-02-19 18:45:30 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1041 2013-02-19 18:46:04 <gavinandresen> hsy: perfect, thanks
1042 2013-02-19 18:46:42 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: Mac user: [18:27:43] <B0g4r7_> "About" box shows "v0.8.0-beta"
1043 2013-02-19 18:47:59 <B0g4r7_> The Finder version string however (the one taken from info.plist) just says "Created by Qt/Make", same as 0.7.2 did. Ideally it should show the version there also.
1044 2013-02-19 18:50:36 nus- has joined
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1046 2013-02-19 18:53:14 <MC1984> that google account security thing is great
1047 2013-02-19 18:53:38 <MC1984> still waiting for microsoft to do some basic goddamn heuristics re: xbox live accounts
1048 2013-02-19 18:55:57 <gavinandresen> windows setup.exe is sane (tested in a Windows 8 VM)⦠I'm going to announce
1049 2013-02-19 18:58:02 <MC1984> want me to try it in xp?
1050 2013-02-19 19:00:24 <MC1984> aww it still doesnt take account of my previous install not being on C: drive
1051 2013-02-19 19:00:53 <gavinandresen> MC1984: patches welcome (you'll have to figure out the NSIS installer....)
1052 2013-02-19 19:01:21 <MC1984> i might have a look actually, its just scripting
1053 2013-02-19 19:01:47 <MC1984> lets see if it loads this chain then
1054 2013-02-19 19:02:09 <MC1984> the setup icon is still the OLD bitcoin logo btw
1055 2013-02-19 19:02:29 <MC1984> not exactly a showstopper i know
1056 2013-02-19 19:02:41 <sipa> is there a new one?
1057 2013-02-19 19:02:46 <Luke-Jr> ^
1058 2013-02-19 19:03:07 <sipa> well to be honest, i have no idea what logo the installer uses
1059 2013-02-19 19:03:07 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1060 2013-02-19 19:03:09 <MC1984> theres the yellow one and th orange tilty one
1061 2013-02-19 19:03:36 <Luke-Jr> I'm not aware of Bitcoin-Qt using more than one logo ever
1062 2013-02-19 19:03:36 <MC1984> the installer uses the tilty one in the dialogue box
1063 2013-02-19 19:03:37 <sipa> i know there have been dozens of proposed logos
1064 2013-02-19 19:04:26 <Luke-Jr> setting a common logo really feels like something the Foundation should be involved in, given the documented goals
1065 2013-02-19 19:04:36 <MC1984> yea
1066 2013-02-19 19:04:40 <Luke-Jr> not so much developers necessarily
1067 2013-02-19 19:04:42 vigilyn has joined
1068 2013-02-19 19:04:59 <MC1984> branding is important
1069 2013-02-19 19:05:31 <MC1984> same reason you see those little visa logos everywhere
1070 2013-02-19 19:05:35 <Luke-Jr> there seems to be a lot of push for the É
1071 2013-02-19 19:06:21 <MC1984> the box?
1072 2013-02-19 19:06:42 <MC1984> dont think my irc likes that character
1073 2013-02-19 19:06:58 <sipa> get unicode :p
1074 2013-02-19 19:07:16 <MC1984> lol how
1075 2013-02-19 19:07:17 <sipa> it's the capital B with a horizontal dash through the bottom left bar
1076 2013-02-19 19:07:25 <MC1984> oh yeah i like that
1077 2013-02-19 19:07:45 <MC1984> OTOH the vrertical bar one says "money"
1078 2013-02-19 19:08:06 <sipa> yeah, and bitcoin does things sort-of-differently :p
1079 2013-02-19 19:08:06 <MC1984> but its too similar to thailands symbol or something
1080 2013-02-19 19:08:29 <sipa> it *is* thailand's symbol
1081 2013-02-19 19:08:37 <sipa> that baht
1082 2013-02-19 19:08:41 <sipa> thai baht
1083 2013-02-19 19:08:50 <MC1984> i thought thailands symbol used a double bar
1084 2013-02-19 19:09:13 <sipa> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/e3f/index.htm
1085 2013-02-19 19:09:52 <MC1984> oh fuck nop its the baht symbol
1086 2013-02-19 19:10:00 <MC1984> we cant just steal thailands symbol
1087 2013-02-19 19:10:16 DemonZ^_^ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1088 2013-02-19 19:10:37 <Luke-Jr> sipa: no, the baht only has 1 bar
1089 2013-02-19 19:10:46 <Luke-Jr> the classic BTC symbol has 2
1090 2013-02-19 19:10:57 <Luke-Jr> Bâ¦
1091 2013-02-19 19:11:11 <MC1984> theres no character for the double bar symbol
1092 2013-02-19 19:11:18 <Luke-Jr> B⦠<-- right there
1093 2013-02-19 19:11:37 <MC1984> whats the altcode for it
1094 2013-02-19 19:11:41 MagicalTux has quit (Excess Flood)
1095 2013-02-19 19:12:01 <Luke-Jr> U+0042 U+20E6
1096 2013-02-19 19:12:28 <gmaxwell> Where is the setup for the win32 installer?
1097 2013-02-19 19:12:42 <MC1984> this bitcoin still shows 0.8-beta in the about mind
1098 2013-02-19 19:12:52 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: all releases are beta until 1.0
1099 2013-02-19 19:12:52 <sipa> yes?
1100 2013-02-19 19:13:02 RatchetLove has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1101 2013-02-19 19:13:07 Guest90019 has joined
1102 2013-02-19 19:13:07 <MC1984> oh
1103 2013-02-19 19:13:45 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
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1108 2013-02-19 19:16:49 <MC1984> well itloadedmy chain and building on it
1109 2013-02-19 19:16:54 <MC1984> looks good
1110 2013-02-19 19:17:56 <MC1984> when you say this release is signed, in what way, by whom and how can i check/verify it?
1111 2013-02-19 19:20:08 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1112 2013-02-19 19:21:24 <gavinandresen> MC1984: linux and windows binary checksums/ signatures are at: https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs
1113 2013-02-19 19:22:18 <gavinandresen> MC1984: the OSX .app and the Windows -setup.exe are further signed by an X.509 code signing certificate that belongs to the Bitcoin Foundation and that I use to sign them.
1114 2013-02-19 19:23:07 <MC1984> lindasy
1115 2013-02-19 19:23:15 <MC1984> lindsay
1116 2013-02-19 19:23:27 <gavinandresen> what about Lindsay?
1117 2013-02-19 19:23:40 moarrr has quit ()
1118 2013-02-19 19:23:47 <MC1984> dunno
1119 2013-02-19 19:24:07 <helo> do unconfirmed transactions still need to be manually removed from a wallet?
1120 2013-02-19 19:24:21 <helo> (so that the coin becomes available again)
1121 2013-02-19 19:24:45 Hashdog has joined
1122 2013-02-19 19:24:45 <gavinandresen> helo: yes, if they can never be confirmed (how'd you manage to do that, if you did?)
1123 2013-02-19 19:27:14 <helo> was wondering if that is likely to change before block space restrictions come into play
1124 2013-02-19 19:27:29 <gmaxwell> I went through hell helping someone fix one the other day. Turns out that basically nothing works on stripping txn out of an encrypted wallet.
1125 2013-02-19 19:28:27 <gmaxwell> (including things like b.i just failing silently to import, â I wonder how many coins have been lost forever because some import tool showed a zero balance and so the user threw the wallet out)
1126 2013-02-19 19:28:42 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: how did they manage to get it stuck? Copying wallet.dat's to different computers?
1127 2013-02-19 19:28:49 <gmaxwell> Playing SD.
1128 2013-02-19 19:29:06 <helo> it will be interesting to see how users will set their fees, given that they can't know ahead of time that a particular fee is sufficient
1129 2013-02-19 19:29:15 <gavinandresen> oy veyâ¦.
1130 2013-02-19 19:29:38 <gavinandresen> helo: client software needs to be smarter about fees. That will happen.
1131 2013-02-19 19:29:53 <gmaxwell> helo: I had some useful ideas on thatâ at least for full nodes you can observe txn failing to make it into blocks and infer the just-insufficient fees.
1132 2013-02-19 19:30:06 <helo> so it will maybe include statistics about the fees in the last N blocks?
1133 2013-02-19 19:31:15 <helo> allow the user to select a fee, and see "% chance of getting in the next block (if this block behaves like the previous N blocks wrt size and fees)"
1134 2013-02-19 19:31:45 <gmaxwell> helo: e.g. a manual interface could potentially have a slider that as you adjust it it tells you the expected time to confirmation, and expected 95%tile time to confirmation.
1135 2013-02-19 19:32:56 Connected has joined
1136 2013-02-19 19:33:03 Connected is now known as BusinessMajor
1137 2013-02-19 19:33:05 <gmaxwell> Even more importantly, with a payment protocol, the reciever can pay the fees and choose them. And I expect reciever to generally have more concerns and be better informed.
1138 2013-02-19 19:33:05 BusinessMajor is now known as MajorBusiness
1139 2013-02-19 19:33:41 <helo> sounds like a Good Thing
1140 2013-02-19 19:34:19 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: payment protocol proposal doesn't include receiver-pays, by the way-- consensus was to implement that as child-pays-for-parent
1141 2013-02-19 19:35:15 TD has joined
1142 2013-02-19 19:36:02 <gmaxwell> I expect it will eventuallyâ child-pays-for-parent is less efficientâ requires the parent to issue another transaction. At some point in time "some specification work for half the txn size" will be pretty attractive.
1143 2013-02-19 19:36:44 <gmaxwell> helo: care need to be taken, if you use stats from the transactions _in_ the blocks your data will be distorted by miners mining according to invisible agreements. (or, worse, miners will pad space in their own blocks with fake fat fee transactions to drive the stats upâ you can't drive the stats up with mempool txn without actually spending fees)
1144 2013-02-19 19:37:07 <helo> hah, good point
1145 2013-02-19 19:38:38 <helo> seems bizarre that the non-confirmed transactions are more accurate
1146 2013-02-19 19:38:45 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: right now you have things like coinbase making four transctions per transaction, but you know that can't last forever.
1147 2013-02-19 19:39:30 <gmaxwell> helo: yea, not so odd if you think at it as this: If you want fees to be trustworthy they must be at stake. Fees in a block may have been at stake (if they were announced) or may not be...
1148 2013-02-19 19:41:56 <gavinandresen> cool, Foundation got eleven-times-two grant proposals by the deadlineâ¦
1149 2013-02-19 19:47:00 zooko has joined
1150 2013-02-19 19:48:08 <helo> how might a non-full-node recommend appropriate fees?
1151 2013-02-19 19:49:13 <helo> a client would have to have been online for consecutive blocks to get a feel for current fee behavior
1152 2013-02-19 19:50:31 <kuzetsa> gavinandresen: you said I should tell you if it happened again on 0.8.x...
1153 2013-02-19 19:50:41 <kuzetsa> which I haven't tried yet (still RC status last I checked)
1154 2013-02-19 19:50:42 <kuzetsa> http://pastebin.com/rcSb4HaM <--- IRC log from February 6th 2013 (an exception happened) ... it just happened again last night ---> http://i49.tinypic.com/2prts9u.png
1155 2013-02-19 19:51:07 <gavinandresen> kuzetsa: just released 0.8.0 a couple hours ago.
1156 2013-02-19 19:51:13 <kuzetsa> oh
1157 2013-02-19 19:51:53 <kuzetsa> according to bitcointalk forum --> News: Version 0.7.2 is now available.
1158 2013-02-19 19:52:01 <kuzetsa> I didn't check sourceforge directly
1159 2013-02-19 19:52:55 <MC1984> when does 0.8 go front and centre on bitcoin.org?
1160 2013-02-19 19:53:01 <MC1984> who controls that domain anyhow
1161 2013-02-19 19:53:30 <kuzetsa> yeah good point... bitcoin.org still says 0.7.2 as well
1162 2013-02-19 19:53:52 <gavinandresen> MC1984: I pulled the version change, there's a mysterious process that I don't understand that SHOULD automatically update it (but seems to mysteriously sometimes not)
1163 2013-02-19 19:54:21 <MC1984> i...see
1164 2013-02-19 19:54:42 <gavinandresen> MC1984: bitcoin.org is hosted at github: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org
1165 2013-02-19 19:56:09 <MC1984> so you can host whole websites at github but not binaries
1166 2013-02-19 19:56:13 <MC1984> github logic
1167 2013-02-19 19:57:42 ProfMac has joined
1168 2013-02-19 19:59:20 <Scrat> sourceforge is full of ads ;x
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1174 2013-02-19 20:12:51 <HM> congrats on shipping 0.8
1175 2013-02-19 20:13:03 <HM> i hope you receive cake from the competing cryptocurrencies
1176 2013-02-19 20:14:15 <TD> hah
1177 2013-02-19 20:14:23 zooko has joined
1178 2013-02-19 20:15:35 <helo> bitcoin needs to send paypal a cake when 1.0 comes out :)
1179 2013-02-19 20:16:03 <helo> the bitcoin dude, that is
1180 2013-02-19 20:16:37 <MC1984> what happened to solid coin
1181 2013-02-19 20:22:34 <Eliel_> MC1984: My understanding is that they lost the leader like character and there's now nothing going on anymore.
1182 2013-02-19 20:26:25 <MC1984> theres a shame
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1196 2013-02-19 20:55:38 <comboy> some random user feedback - holy crap this 0.8 is fast! is this thanks to leveldb?
1197 2013-02-19 20:55:53 <Luke-Jr> comboy: half
1198 2013-02-19 20:56:15 <comboy> what's the other half?
1199 2013-02-19 20:56:28 <etotheipi_> any integrity issues observed so far with LevelDB?
1200 2013-02-19 20:56:32 <Luke-Jr> comboy: ultraprune
1201 2013-02-19 20:56:46 <Luke-Jr> comboy: oh, and there's also the parallelization stuff
1202 2013-02-19 20:57:00 <comboy> ah, rings a bell but I don't know details anyway
1203 2013-02-19 20:57:05 <Luke-Jr> in short, it's all thanks to TD and sipa mainly :P
1204 2013-02-19 20:57:05 <comboy> but awesome work, keep it up
1205 2013-02-19 20:57:17 <TD> ultraprune is a lot more than half
1206 2013-02-19 20:57:18 <TD> but thanks
1207 2013-02-19 20:57:33 <comboy> :)
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1209 2013-02-19 20:58:00 <Luke-Jr> lol
1210 2013-02-19 20:58:07 <Luke-Jr> sipa blames TD; TD blames sipa
1211 2013-02-19 20:58:14 <gmaxwell> comboy: basically level db or the database design alone each give something like 85% of the total speed upâ the the blend depends on the hardware (e.g. slow IO gets more from leveldb). They don't quite combine additively.
1212 2013-02-19 20:58:33 <TD> right
1213 2013-02-19 20:58:52 <gmaxwell> Well total speedup before the parallelism changes, which themselves easily double speed at the tip of the chain.
1214 2013-02-19 20:59:16 <comboy> I keep blockchain on ssd, but difference is very noticable anyway
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1216 2013-02-19 20:59:58 <gmaxwell> yea, on an SSD you would be seeing more ultraprune and parallel sigchecking improvements than leveldb, but really it's all the parts that matter.
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1218 2013-02-19 21:00:16 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: any comments on levelDB integrity, so far?
1219 2013-02-19 21:00:31 <gmaxwell> comboy: I'm glad to hear you noticed in any case. I kinda wondered if we'd get complaints that it was slow simply because the reindex takes a while because it redoes the whole database.
1220 2013-02-19 21:01:25 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: uh. It's surprisingly robust to fuzzing its data, even with the checksums disabled. BDB would crash all over the place.
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1222 2013-02-19 21:04:08 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: any reports so far of corrupted DBs?
1223 2013-02-19 21:04:31 <etotheipi_> obviously, it may be some time before you can collect statistics... you just released it
1224 2013-02-19 21:04:50 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: there have been some comments, but they're hard to yet reason about.
1225 2013-02-19 21:05:20 gruvfunk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1226 2013-02-19 21:06:22 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: well, despite his trollish behavior, 2112 is making a fuss about LevelDB being a toy and unreliable when I mentioned I wanted to use it for Armory stuff (my own speed & storage tests have been extremely promising)
1227 2013-02-19 21:06:24 subpar__ has joined
1228 2013-02-19 21:06:48 <gmaxwell> It's 2112. He calls all kinds of things toys. He thinks casting in C is a toy.
1229 2013-02-19 21:06:59 <etotheipi_> and despite him being a dick, he has justifiably caused me to pause and question whether I want to actually use it
1230 2013-02-19 21:07:23 <gmaxwell> LevelDB may ultimately turn out to suck, but there it is implausable that it it could be worse than BDB.
1231 2013-02-19 21:07:33 <etotheipi_> haha
1232 2013-02-19 21:07:54 <etotheipi_> well, that's why I'm asking about integrity... it's got *everything else* I want
1233 2013-02-19 21:08:22 <gmaxwell> We have reasonably high levels of observed corruption in the wild with BDB. If you manually screw up BDB's databases it will viciously crash in a seemingly infinite number of different ways.
1234 2013-02-19 21:08:28 <TD> leveldb is basically a refactored out part of BigTable
1235 2013-02-19 21:08:34 <TD> or at least, a reimplementation of a very similar design
1236 2013-02-19 21:08:37 gruvfunk has joined
1237 2013-02-19 21:08:46 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I'm not looking for a comparison to BDB... I already have had bad experiences with that
1238 2013-02-19 21:08:46 <TD> so if you have a gmail account, i'd hope you trust it :)
1239 2013-02-19 21:09:27 <etotheipi_> since I'm starting from scratch with the new blockchain management stuff... it definitely deserves spending some time to make sure I'm using a good tool
1240 2013-02-19 21:09:33 <gmaxwell> TD: to be fair, isn't it the case that most google applications have redundancy at multiple levels? e.g. a single leveldb instance blowing up wouldn't tend to lose anyone's data?
1241 2013-02-19 21:09:49 JWU42_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1242 2013-02-19 21:09:54 <TD> yes, of course, but it's still a problem if your database randomly eats data. backups are great but they still have to be restored.
1243 2013-02-19 21:10:21 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: what has 2112's point actually been on the subject? Simply staying it is a toy isn't an argument.
1244 2013-02-19 21:10:25 <TD> data corruption is especially problematic as it can of course fail to be detected and then propagated.
1245 2013-02-19 21:10:34 <TD> etotheipi_: fyi i've had him on my ignorelist for ages now
1246 2013-02-19 21:11:20 <MC1984> wow bitcoin looks strange without the dire warning in it now
1247 2013-02-19 21:12:06 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, TD: I understand
1248 2013-02-19 21:12:30 <etotheipi_> I recognize he has useful information in his brain, he's just has no interest in really helping people
1249 2013-02-19 21:12:53 <TD> etotheipi_: are you going to implement a full node, or re-use the leveldbs built by bitcoind or â¦.
1250 2013-02-19 21:12:54 <TD> ?
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1253 2013-02-19 21:13:31 <gmaxwell> If there is useful information thereâ it's been encrypted. Perhaps there is some protocol where you can pass him through a number of transformations and get useful work to occur using that information without ever discovering it, but I'm skeptical. :P
1254 2013-02-19 21:13:33 <etotheipi_> TD: I'm switching Armory from maintaining an file-pointer index in RAM (mapping 32-byte TxIDs to locations in the Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoind blk*.dat files)
1255 2013-02-19 21:13:50 <etotheipi_> TD: switching to actually maintaining my own copy of all the data
1256 2013-02-19 21:13:57 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: boo :P
1257 2013-02-19 21:14:03 <TD> ok. so with your own block chain management, etc?
1258 2013-02-19 21:14:14 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: would be wonderful if Armory could just share LevelDB+blk0*.dat with bitcoind
1259 2013-02-19 21:14:24 <etotheipi_> TD: I'm still relying on Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoind to do the validation for me
1260 2013-02-19 21:14:27 <TD> ok
1261 2013-02-19 21:14:30 <etotheipi_> and all the network/P2P stuff
1262 2013-02-19 21:15:07 <gmaxwell> meh. 2x resource usage is not fun.
1263 2013-02-19 21:15:10 <etotheipi_> but by managing my own DB, I can later do somethign different with it -- some kind of pruning, filtering, UTXOs, etc
1264 2013-02-19 21:15:48 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: obviously not, but Armory is using like 2 GB of RAM now just to maintain the mapping of TxIDs to tx locations
1265 2013-02-19 21:15:48 <gmaxwell> (it'll just encourage users to put their armory behind random public untrusted nodes)
1266 2013-02-19 21:16:20 <gmaxwell> ah, well. that seems urgent. Though you could just throw that in leveldb and be done with it without making a seperate copy of the data.
1267 2013-02-19 21:16:23 <etotheipi_> I mean, not 2GB just for that mapping... there's a variety of things contributing to it
1268 2013-02-19 21:16:35 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I had started to do that
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1271 2013-02-19 21:17:19 <etotheipi_> I have long wanted to start maintaining my own copy of the data anyway, and implementing that partial solution turned out to be a lot trickier than I'd hoped
1272 2013-02-19 21:18:02 <gmaxwell> (I still would really perfer you abstract out your backend enough that users could just point it at the bitcoind rpc if they were running it⦠but I guess I only can start whining at you about that if I start cutting you a paycheck. :P )
1273 2013-02-19 21:18:21 reizuki__ has joined
1274 2013-02-19 21:18:48 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I understand
1275 2013-02-19 21:18:54 <etotheipi_> but I want to leave my options open
1276 2013-02-19 21:19:30 <etotheipi_> by maintaining my own data, I can connect to remote nodes, Armory super-nodes (in the future), create lite or pruned local nodes, etc
1277 2013-02-19 21:19:43 <etotheipi_> if I piggyback 100% on Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoind, I've lost that flexibility
1278 2013-02-19 21:20:42 <gmaxwell> Well thats why I said 'abstract out'. ... if you're going to talk to untrusted nodes there is a lot of annoying detail work to do to make things actually secure. Far more work than writing just a simple database backend shim.
1279 2013-02-19 21:21:08 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: the goal right now is not to really be possible to talk to untrusted nodes
1280 2013-02-19 21:21:33 <TD> armory is in c++?
1281 2013-02-19 21:21:36 <etotheipi_> it will still require a localhost bitcoind... and if it's possible to to connect to different, untrusted nodes, I won't make it easy
1282 2013-02-19 21:21:38 <gmaxwell> I certantly support you doing all that work (hurray, more work for someone who isn't me!), but so long as you haven't done it yet and are going to depend on a bitcoin node ... it would be nicer to not double the resource requirements.
1283 2013-02-19 21:22:03 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: in the future ,I hope that Armory *won't* double it
1284 2013-02-19 21:22:04 <TD> you could consider compiling bitcoinj to C++ using gcj/cni and then using SPV mode connected to a local node
1285 2013-02-19 21:22:19 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I hope that Armory will simply hold/copy a subset
1286 2013-02-19 21:22:41 <etotheipi_> but for now it's simplest to keep the CONOPs I have (which is to maintain a full database with full tx lookup capabilities)
1287 2013-02-19 21:22:44 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: well at the moment, I expect you'll more than double it, since we don't index all txn by default, and don't index addresses at all, and you do.
1288 2013-02-19 21:23:25 <gmaxwell> (though we can optionally index all the txn- it's a configuration parameter, and sipa wrote code to do the same with addresses, but isn't happy with it yet)
1289 2013-02-19 21:24:29 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I actually setup a full index (txid--> tx)
1290 2013-02-19 21:24:33 <etotheipi_> as part of my tests
1291 2013-02-19 21:24:42 <etotheipi_> I only did it for the first 2GB of the blockchain
1292 2013-02-19 21:24:46 <etotheipi_> the resulting DB was about 2.3 GB
1293 2013-02-19 21:25:10 <etotheipi_> and doing a full scan was stupid fast
1294 2013-02-19 21:25:41 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: btw 2112 was basically saying that the integrity aspect of LevelDB is lacking, and of course integrity is very important
1295 2013-02-19 21:26:40 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: did he actually say _how_? He says a lot of things which I think are indistinguishable from a topically trained markov model. He invokes a lot of the right sounding words, they don't always mean a whole lot.
1296 2013-02-19 21:27:08 <etotheipi_> and also telling me I should use a relational database, though I don't agree with that for such simple data structure
1297 2013-02-19 21:27:13 <etotheipi_> I'd prefer speed
1298 2013-02-19 21:27:35 <etotheipi_> well my understanding was that LevelDB doesn't have all the ACID pieces there
1299 2013-02-19 21:28:24 <TD> gmaxwell: hah, excellent burn.
1300 2013-02-19 21:28:38 <gmaxwell> It's not a full relational database. It does have transactionsâ basically its integrity model is exactly what we need for blockchain data. Your usage may be different.
1301 2013-02-19 21:29:22 <gmaxwell> For blockchain data we need ordered transactions that apply completely or not at all. And if data is lost it only gets lost in the form of forgetting the most recent transaction.
1302 2013-02-19 21:29:26 Skav has joined
1303 2013-02-19 21:29:36 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I totally agree with you about 2112, but that doesn't mean his comments are exactly 0% useful
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1305 2013-02-19 21:29:51 <Skav> Luke-Jr: got a min
1306 2013-02-19 21:29:54 <etotheipi_> his point that I should consider more options was a good one, I think
1307 2013-02-19 21:30:01 <gmaxwell> No, well, thats why I was asking what he said. I assume that 2112 via etotheipi filter is likely to produce something useful.
1308 2013-02-19 21:30:11 <etotheipi_> lol
1309 2013-02-19 21:30:20 <Luke-Jr> Skav: barely
1310 2013-02-19 21:30:28 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1311 2013-02-19 21:30:36 <gmaxwell> (likewise, I'd also listen if you told me that you found useful solutions to problems in the digits of pi... :P )
1312 2013-02-19 21:32:12 <bonks> bitcoin.org down?
1313 2013-02-19 21:32:20 <HM> the long term memory usage of 0.8 still seems way too high
1314 2013-02-19 21:32:26 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: In any case, I'm not aware of a better option. As you're aware, requring a full relational database would be a huge burden on the users. ... and the performance of them is surprisingly lackluster for our narrow usecase (go install ABE).
1315 2013-02-19 21:32:35 <gmaxwell> HM: how are you measuring memory usage?
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1317 2013-02-19 21:32:58 <HM> rss
1318 2013-02-19 21:32:59 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: that was exactly my opinion, too... glad to see you agree
1319 2013-02-19 21:33:16 <etotheipi_> i didn't like the other options, because they're not easy to bundle into an end-user app
1320 2013-02-19 21:33:22 <kuzetsa> yikes
1321 2013-02-19 21:33:22 <Skav> gmaxwell: i know your good with this using https://blockchain.info/api/json_rpc_api than with my store opencart what should the status of a new order should be set to
1322 2013-02-19 21:33:31 <TD> HM: are you tweaking any flags?
1323 2013-02-19 21:33:32 <etotheipi_> if they even have an acceptable license
1324 2013-02-19 21:33:37 <HM> not that i know of
1325 2013-02-19 21:33:41 <kuzetsa> switching from 0.7.2 --> 0.8 blockchain format is currently more than 10GB on disk
1326 2013-02-19 21:34:01 <kuzetsa> 13.2 GB (14,279,483,392 bytes) ... that's huge!
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1328 2013-02-19 21:34:20 <Skav> gmaxwell: i have digital downloads in my store but they are just sitting there waiting do they need to wait for 6 confs. before they will recieve a link
1329 2013-02-19 21:34:26 <gmaxwell> HM: what are you seeing?
1330 2013-02-19 21:34:51 <HM> basically 512MB VPS, with 1 GB swap. I increased the swap, few days later the swap is full
1331 2013-02-19 21:34:53 <HM> all Bitcoind
1332 2013-02-19 21:34:57 <HM> this was 0.8-rc1 though
1333 2013-02-19 21:35:16 <gmaxwell> HM: whats the RES/RSS though?
1334 2013-02-19 21:35:24 <HM> 1.5 GiB
1335 2013-02-19 21:35:36 <gmaxwell> yea, thats broken, we need to figure out why.
1336 2013-02-19 21:35:42 <gmaxwell> On my x86_64 tor only node with 30 connections I'm seeing 272MiB, which I think it quite reasonable.
1337 2013-02-19 21:35:58 <gmaxwell> HM: are you _sure_ you're not looking at virt?
1338 2013-02-19 21:36:08 <TD> kuzetsa: where is most of the space used?
1339 2013-02-19 21:36:17 <TD> HM: have you tried restarting the app?
1340 2013-02-19 21:36:29 <HM> it'd make no difference unless there's some gigantic file backed mmaps
1341 2013-02-19 21:36:48 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: From that size I'd say he's just ending up with two copies of the blockchain.
1342 2013-02-19 21:36:51 <HM> and that wouldn't explain swap
1343 2013-02-19 21:36:56 <gmaxwell> HM: ...
1344 2013-02-19 21:37:23 <HM> i had to kill the process to make the machine usable again
1345 2013-02-19 21:37:33 b4tt3r135 has joined
1346 2013-02-19 21:38:01 <gmaxwell> HM: please don't give me bad data. There are no gigantic file based mmaps, but the heap allocation patterns in Bitcoin is pretty pessimal, and causes a LOT of VM bloat. Though yes, it wouldn't impact your swap usage or performance.
1347 2013-02-19 21:38:13 <kuzetsa> gmaxwell: well it's still reindexing, so maybe the disk usage will settle once it's done
1348 2013-02-19 21:38:18 <Skav> gmaxwell: can i set it to procssed because they have to send the coin right
1349 2013-02-19 21:38:38 <HM> gmaxwell: i mean virtual memory is going to be close rss+swap
1350 2013-02-19 21:38:50 <gmaxwell> HM: it is not.
1351 2013-02-19 21:38:57 <gmaxwell> HM: not even remotely close.
1352 2013-02-19 21:39:05 <HM> based on what being mmaped?
1353 2013-02-19 21:39:17 <gmaxwell> Nothing is being mmaped, it's just from VM fragmentation.
1354 2013-02-19 21:39:26 <TD> HM: huh?
1355 2013-02-19 21:39:27 <Skav> can the json rpc api have to use the bitcoin-qi client to confirm purchase or can someone send it and it will acknowledge it? if so after how many confirmations, 2 has done nothing so far.
1356 2013-02-19 21:39:39 <TD> HM: yeah restarting the app can make a difference
1357 2013-02-19 21:39:55 <gmaxwell> VIRT gives the address space span, if you end up with holes in the address space due to a lot of small allocaitons with different lifetimes, then you can fragment the memory address space.
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1359 2013-02-19 21:40:03 <HM> it's a 64bit machine, the only fragmentation that matters is internal fragmentation by the allocator
1360 2013-02-19 21:40:10 <TD> yes
1361 2013-02-19 21:40:28 <gmaxwell> HM: sure, it doesn't matter. I agree.. but it does mean that VIRT and RES are unrelated.
1362 2013-02-19 21:40:29 <TD> and heap fragmentation can be significant in long running C++ apps. that's why i suggested restarting the app
1363 2013-02-19 21:40:31 <TD> to see if it makes a difference
1364 2013-02-19 21:40:32 <HM> as far as the OS is concerned, that's allocated memory
1365 2013-02-19 21:40:47 <TD> if it did, it'd be one more data point in favor of a switch to tcmalloc
1366 2013-02-19 21:40:54 <TD> (or some other malloc)
1367 2013-02-19 21:41:07 <kuzetsa> the thread for 0.8 on bitcointalk doesn't mention that the blockchain needs to (temporarily?) duplicate so much storage / disk space during the upgrade... some people might not be able to upgrade to 0.8 without re-downloading the blockchain from scratch, or at the very least, deleting some non-bitcoin files to make it possible.
1368 2013-02-19 21:41:34 <HM> gmaxwell: i'm rebuilding 0.8 now
1369 2013-02-19 21:42:01 <gmaxwell> HM: for example, on the aformentioned x86_64 laptopâ which has no swap (0) in use. 273MiB REs, 2000MiB virt.
1370 2013-02-19 21:42:19 <kuzetsa> particularly, VPS users (with perhaps less than 50GB total storage available)
1371 2013-02-19 21:42:20 <jaakkos> was it really a good idea to release the coins so quickly in the beginning? it appears that a very small amount of people hold a crapton of bitcoins...
1372 2013-02-19 21:42:50 <HM> gmaxwell: Yes that 270 figure seems familiar
1373 2013-02-19 21:42:53 <jaakkos> well, i'm sure this discussion has been discussed quite many times
1374 2013-02-19 21:43:01 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: kinda OT for bitcoin-dev, but where are you getting the 'it appears' from?
1375 2013-02-19 21:43:30 <HM> gmaxwell: i was seeing ~270 on a fresh start as well, but after a week the process has consumed the entire machine.
1376 2013-02-19 21:44:14 * HM glares at gcc chugging away at bitcoinrpc.o
1377 2013-02-19 21:44:18 <gmaxwell> HM: again. Did you actually observe RES being high or are you guessing because the machine was unresponsive?
1378 2013-02-19 21:44:29 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: as you must know there are some papers out there that study the transaction graph. though i haven't read them properly yet and i'm not sure if i agree.
1379 2013-02-19 21:44:48 <HM> htop reported 800MiB of swap and 470 / ~500 of RAM use.
1380 2013-02-19 21:44:55 <HM> killing bitcoind brang that down to nothing
1381 2013-02-19 21:45:04 <HM> the machine runs nothing else
1382 2013-02-19 21:45:11 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1383 2013-02-19 21:45:15 <HM> i should have screenshotted it
1384 2013-02-19 21:45:21 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: There are a number of people who have written some really poorly informed papers on Bitcoin. Because it is new peer review is basically non-functional. You can write a paper claiming bitcoin is powered by cheese and it will probably get past the refs. :P
1385 2013-02-19 21:45:25 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: eg. i don't know how they deduce that a set of addresses belongs to someone
1386 2013-02-19 21:45:51 <kuzetsa> and now it's 13.3 GB (14,303,100,928 bytes) ... less than 6k blocks left I sure hope things tidy-up without manual intervention after the reindexing finishes, because if not, there are gonna be multiple people doing a full reinstall to upgrade to 0.8 due to this disk usage issue :(
1387 2013-02-19 21:45:54 <TD> guesswor
1388 2013-02-19 21:46:16 <TD> kuzetsa: can you do a du -h in your .bitcoin directory? where is the disk space being used?
1389 2013-02-19 21:46:21 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: No one does. by design. You can make some guesses, but even when you get the data it's not obviously knoweldge. For example, MTGOX having control of hundreds of thousands of coins wouldn't be that alarming.
1390 2013-02-19 21:46:36 <kuzetsa> TD: no, I can't (this is on a windows 7 x64 node)
1391 2013-02-19 21:46:44 <TD> ok
1392 2013-02-19 21:46:50 <kuzetsa> actually... I can
1393 2013-02-19 21:47:03 <kuzetsa> 1 sec, firing up msys-mingw (forgot I installed it the other day)
1394 2013-02-19 21:47:29 <TD> i guess windows has a way to see disk usage also
1395 2013-02-19 21:47:34 <gmaxwell> HM: I don't need screenshots, I just need you to be clear about what you're actually measuring. I'm very interested in getting any problems there fixed... but so far I haven't seen any reports like yours. Though its hard because some good reports probably get discarded due to virt / res confusion.
1396 2013-02-19 21:47:34 <TD> (recursively, i mean)
1397 2013-02-19 21:47:50 <HM> gmaxwell: it was RSS
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1403 2013-02-19 21:51:00 <HM> ok
1404 2013-02-19 21:51:06 <HM> just started up a fresh build
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1406 2013-02-19 21:52:06 <HM> ~565 M virtual, and ~200-270 MB resident somewhat fluctuating
1407 2013-02-19 21:52:23 <TD> that sounds more reasonable
1408 2013-02-19 21:52:37 <HM> in a few days it'll be back in the gigabyte range
1409 2013-02-19 21:53:47 <kuzetsa> TD: here, the du -h is at the end ---> http://pastebin.com/JDCYKhiA
1410 2013-02-19 21:54:53 <gmaxwell> HM: is this node listening? what is its max connections?
1411 2013-02-19 21:54:53 <TD> you have a 2.6mb wallet, impressive
1412 2013-02-19 21:55:07 <Skav> gmaxwell: do you have a suggestion for me
1413 2013-02-19 21:55:10 <HM> gmaxwell: whatever the default is, the bitcoind.conf just contains rpcuser and password
1414 2013-02-19 21:55:33 <gmaxwell> Skav: I'm not sure I understand your question.
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1416 2013-02-19 21:55:40 <TD> kuzetsa: once it's done, i think you can remove the blk*.dat files in the top level directory. they aren't used anymore and are kept around only for downgrades
1417 2013-02-19 21:55:46 <TD> at least that is my understanding
1418 2013-02-19 21:56:00 <kuzetsa> TD: I'm still reindexing (less than 5k blocks now)
1419 2013-02-19 21:56:12 <TD> ok
1420 2013-02-19 21:56:15 <TD> hold in there!
1421 2013-02-19 21:56:44 <gmaxwell> HM: well at maximum connections, by default, there will be 250 MiB of send and recieve buffers.
1422 2013-02-19 21:56:53 smtmnyz is now known as smelul8r
1423 2013-02-19 21:57:05 <HM> those are some pretty huge buffers
1424 2013-02-19 21:57:47 <gmaxwell> I normally recommend people on memory limited systems do no listen to inbound connections. â I thought you already weren't.
1425 2013-02-19 21:58:12 <HM> what good would that be
1426 2013-02-19 21:58:21 <TD> reduces memory usage!
1427 2013-02-19 21:58:23 <HM> (i'm not familiar with the networking side of things)
1428 2013-02-19 21:59:15 <kuzetsa> I find it awfully strange that du -h reports a different size for the "blocks" subfolder than dir/s does
1429 2013-02-19 21:59:37 <kuzetsa> TD: you didn't comment on that
1430 2013-02-19 21:59:55 <HM> my ~/.bitcoind is about 6.4 GiB if that helps
1431 2013-02-19 21:59:57 <TD> it's doing something funny with hard-linking
1432 2013-02-19 21:59:58 <gmaxwell> HM: if you do that you'll then only have 8 connections, which means only a maximum of 16 mbytes lost to buffers.
1433 2013-02-19 21:59:59 <HM> this was a fresh chain on 0.8
1434 2013-02-19 22:00:19 <kuzetsa> TD: oh
1435 2013-02-19 22:00:39 <HM> gmaxwell: i'm pretty sure getinfo only reported ~30 or so connections when i had this high memory
1436 2013-02-19 22:00:40 <TD> your actual disk usage may be lower than it appears
1437 2013-02-19 22:00:46 <TD> i'm not sure how hard-linked files are reported on windows
1438 2013-02-19 22:00:56 <HM> gmaxwell: when it happens again i'll seek you out before killing the process
1439 2013-02-19 22:00:56 <kuzetsa> by default, they're not
1440 2013-02-19 22:01:04 <Skav> gmaxwell: ok, trying to figure a digital download out accepting bitcoin using json rtc api, had someone test it out, but instead of using the bitcoin client they just sent the payment to the required address, i got a confirmation over the phone but the module doesnt display an order and the person who tested it when clicking the "click here if it doesnt automatically redirect you" button it states that it wasnt yet paid in full, w
1441 2013-02-19 22:01:10 Guest90019 is now known as MagicalTux
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1444 2013-02-19 22:01:26 <gmaxwell> HM: well, you _will_ end up running outâ the default max connections is 125, and it'll use 2mb per.. sounds like you don't have room for that.
1445 2013-02-19 22:01:37 <gmaxwell> HM: thanks though. hopefully I'll be around.
1446 2013-02-19 22:02:30 <HM> 2MB seems like a big buffer considering the low traffic during normal operation
1447 2013-02-19 22:02:39 <gmaxwell> Skav: ah, well sending the payment is all follwing the link would have done.
1448 2013-02-19 22:02:42 bitafterbit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1449 2013-02-19 22:02:53 <gmaxwell> HM: thats due for reworking.
1450 2013-02-19 22:04:45 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1453 2013-02-19 22:05:20 <Skav> gmaxwell: so, are you stating that with their payment sent they would then have to contact me with details to finalize the order?
1454 2013-02-19 22:05:55 <gmaxwell> Skav: no, I'm saying that it should just work. But I don't know the details of your cart system. It may just be that the payment hasn't been confirmed yet, so you're not seeing it yet.
1455 2013-02-19 22:06:05 Muis has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1458 2013-02-19 22:06:43 <Skav> gmaxwell: ok let me check something
1459 2013-02-19 22:06:45 <Skav> brb
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1471 2013-02-19 22:13:31 <kuzetsa> TD: thanks... do you mind if I share this on bitcointalk? (quotes in this pastebin) since you helped determine what was going on? --> http://pastebin.com/wiXQNRaE
1472 2013-02-19 22:13:39 <TD> go ahead
1473 2013-02-19 22:18:19 <TD> gavinandresen: does bitcoin compile on mountain lion for you?
1474 2013-02-19 22:18:51 b4tt3r135 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1475 2013-02-19 22:19:23 <MC1984> o new bitcoin wallet too
1476 2013-02-19 22:20:17 <gavinandresen> TD: yes, with both llvm-g++ and clang
1477 2013-02-19 22:20:35 <gavinandresen> TD: you running into a problem?
1478 2013-02-19 22:20:53 <EagleTM> ah nice 0.8.0 is released
1479 2013-02-19 22:21:15 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: wiki/bitcoin.org still want updating
1480 2013-02-19 22:21:44 <gavinandresen> bitcoin.org git tree is updated, I dunno how to kick it to make it go to the homepage.
1481 2013-02-19 22:21:51 <gavinandresen> wiki should be updatedâ¦.
1482 2013-02-19 22:22:17 <gavinandresen> yeah, wiki Main_Page is updated for me, did I miss something somewhere?
1483 2013-02-19 22:22:20 zooko has left ("#tahoe-lafs")
1484 2013-02-19 22:22:44 <TD> gavinandresen: i always have to set -fpermissive
1485 2013-02-19 22:22:56 <TD> have done for a while now. not sure why.
1486 2013-02-19 22:22:59 <TD> otherwise i get errors in boost
1487 2013-02-19 22:23:04 * jgarzik reloads
1488 2013-02-19 22:23:08 <jgarzik> wiki is updated, sorry
1489 2013-02-19 22:23:15 <kuzetsa> TD: does this look ok to you? --> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145184.msg1540858#msg1540858
1490 2013-02-19 22:23:21 <gavinandresen> TD: do you compile boost yourself? I use Macports boost
1491 2013-02-19 22:23:45 <TD> kuzetsa: thanks
1492 2013-02-19 22:23:53 <TD> gavinandresen: i thought i was using macports.
1493 2013-02-19 22:23:56 <TD> ok
1494 2013-02-19 22:24:09 <TD> i'll investigate some time. i get sick of stashing/unstashing my bitcoin-qt.pro change
1495 2013-02-19 22:24:21 <gavinandresen> In particular, I'm using: boost @1.52.0_1+no_single+no_static+python27 (active)
1496 2013-02-19 22:26:25 * jgarzik watches pynode and bitcoind compete
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1499 2013-02-19 22:29:34 <gmaxwell> The issue that warren seemed to trigger with a corrupted database is: http://code.google.com/p/leveldb/issues/detail?id=97
1500 2013-02-19 22:29:44 petertodd has joined
1501 2013-02-19 22:30:45 * jgarzik ponders a command line that blows away the blockchain (public) db at startup?
1502 2013-02-19 22:30:49 <jgarzik> -cleanslate
1503 2013-02-19 22:31:30 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: isn't that -reindex?
1504 2013-02-19 22:31:46 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: that doesn't remove the raw block data
1505 2013-02-19 22:31:53 KK_ has joined
1506 2013-02-19 22:31:59 <jgarzik> I guess I should have been more specific
1507 2013-02-19 22:32:04 <Luke-Jr> why would you want to do that? O.o
1508 2013-02-19 22:32:16 <Luke-Jr> if it's corrupt, it won't verify on -reindex
1509 2013-02-19 22:32:53 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1510 2013-02-19 22:33:37 <jgarzik> because it's nice to start with a clean slate, a known good quantity, including clean, in order block files
1511 2013-02-19 22:34:09 <TD> jgarzik: can you sanity check this idea? i want to put in my bitcoinj 0.7 release announcement a paragraph saying that to get it, you should check out the git repo and then run "git reset --hard <hash>", then sign the paragraph containing that instruction with a new key I created for the purpose and provide the sig immediately afterwards. That way continuity of the address can be established and it's more compact than a GPG sig, and there's
1512 2013-02-19 22:34:09 <TD> chance of a hacked download repo causing issues.
1513 2013-02-19 22:34:42 KK_ has quit (Client Quit)
1514 2013-02-19 22:34:43 <TD> also my announcement will be sent from my work address, which is DKIM signed, so there's a chain of signatures from my corporate identity through to an intermediate key and then the commit hash
1515 2013-02-19 22:36:58 <gmaxwell> TD: hm. In GIT can the server push down client side hooks? E.g. a post-checkout hook that compromises your system?
1516 2013-02-19 22:37:18 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't think so.
1517 2013-02-19 22:37:21 <TD> presumably not outside the context of a commit?
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1525 2013-02-19 22:42:33 <TD> ok, well, let's try it
1526 2013-02-19 22:43:06 <gmaxwell> I tried to add a post-checkout hook to the index, it won't let me.
1527 2013-02-19 22:43:21 <gmaxwell> So at least my most-obvious-exploit failed.
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1535 2013-02-19 22:48:48 <TD> gavinandresen: no announcement on the forum?
1536 2013-02-19 22:48:56 jederik has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1537 2013-02-19 22:48:59 <TD> oh, it's at the top
1538 2013-02-19 22:49:03 * TD has become blind to stickied posts :(
1539 2013-02-19 22:49:21 <KK_> hi. the new 0.8 binaries do not seem to actually have digital signature. at least those that are inside .bitcoin-0.8.0-win32 (SHA: E80484D0FDF4787CDFC4A41C841EEAAEC23DE926)
1540 2013-02-19 22:49:43 <gavinandresen> TD: good excuse, I bet you were just distracted by the ClassyCam girls post
1541 2013-02-19 22:50:02 <TD> that's pretty blinding too, yeah
1542 2013-02-19 22:50:04 jederik has joined
1543 2013-02-19 22:51:37 <gmaxwell> KK_: we sign the whole archives.
1544 2013-02-19 22:52:17 jederik has left ()
1545 2013-02-19 22:52:27 <gavinandresen> KK_: the outer setup.exe i s signed with the code-signing key, but not also the inner bitcoin-qt.exe or bitcoind.exe.
1546 2013-02-19 22:52:30 clr_ is now known as c00w
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1549 2013-02-19 22:54:33 <gmaxwell> KK_: until someone works out how to do the required masking, signing the inner file would break the determinstic build process. So while your confidence would go up that someone paid $100 in order to be able to sign that binary, your confidence of what was actually inside it would go down. :)
1550 2013-02-19 22:54:49 <KK_> signing binaries make antivirus happy. please consider signing all the binaries.
1551 2013-02-19 22:55:08 <TD> KK_: i already pointed that out ...
1552 2013-02-19 22:55:19 <KK_> ok. thanks
1553 2013-02-19 22:55:33 <TD> KK_: it needs a bit more code written
1554 2013-02-19 22:55:42 <alexwaters2> KK_: in the wise words of yoda - a signed binary does not a safe system make
1555 2013-02-19 22:55:46 devrandom has joined
1556 2013-02-19 22:56:11 <TD> actually, signed binaries do make things safer :) i think there's a tool somewhere on MSDN that can strip signatures, at least for windows where it's most important
1557 2013-02-19 22:56:25 <TD> hey devrandom
1558 2013-02-19 22:57:19 alexwaters has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1559 2013-02-19 22:59:22 <gmaxwell> TD: yea, just needs the stripping tool.
1560 2013-02-19 23:00:54 llama has quit (Quit: llama)
1561 2013-02-19 23:02:01 <kinlo> TD: how do signed binaries make things safer if anyone can sign?
1562 2013-02-19 23:02:48 <alexwaters2> all a signed binary tells you is that it is the same version that was original signed by the signer. it's like a hash that is less tamperable then hashing
1563 2013-02-19 23:03:44 <alexwaters2> but it doesn't ensure that the thing is "safe" - just that it's the same file that the developer uploaded - and hasn't been tampered with
1564 2013-02-19 23:03:49 <TD> gavinandresen: http://www.fluxbytes.com/software-releases/fileunsigner-v1-0/
1565 2013-02-19 23:03:53 KK_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1566 2013-02-19 23:04:00 <TD> apparently it's dead simple to delete signatures, there's a windows API for it
1567 2013-02-19 23:04:28 <TD> kinlo: signing authorities can build good reputations that makes them rise above "random unknown binary downloaded from internet"
1568 2013-02-19 23:04:49 <TD> kinlo: more and more orgs are starting to use binary whitelisting on windows. literally the machine only runs known good binaries. bit9 being an example of that.
1569 2013-02-19 23:05:08 <TD> kinlo: it's a very robust approach, but it works much better if you whitelist signing keys rather than specific binaries.
1570 2013-02-19 23:05:34 <alexwaters2> TD: that sounds pretty cool
1571 2013-02-19 23:05:41 <kinlo> TD: sounds great in theory, but I'm not a fan of those things, there are plenty of examples out there why it doesn't work
1572 2013-02-19 23:06:12 <kinlo> if only one person thinks bitcoin is dangerous it will end up on a list telling people it is not safe
1573 2013-02-19 23:06:31 <TD> obviously binary whitelisting is mostly used by organizations with professional admins
1574 2013-02-19 23:06:36 <kinlo> kinda scares me to give some people too much power to decide what is good and what is not
1575 2013-02-19 23:06:45 <TD> not for consumer desktops (at least not yet)
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1577 2013-02-19 23:07:33 <gmaxwell> Obviously thats where it going, lets you shut down annoying drm evasion tools, and fundimentally disadvantages free software which would be a welcome improvement to adherents of some business models. :P
1578 2013-02-19 23:07:57 <gmaxwell> But â ::sigh:: that doesn't change it to be something pretty reasonable for us to use, assuming that gitian solves the required masking.
1579 2013-02-19 23:08:32 <TD> i am sure there'll always be a Windows that runs un-whitelisted code. there are just far, far, far too many specialized apps out there for microsoft to ever succeed with binary whitelisting
1580 2013-02-19 23:08:39 <lidteri> I upgraded from 0.7.1 (working fine) to 0.8 and i get "Error: To use bitcoind, you must set a rpcpassword in the configuration file". File exists and has said contents
1581 2013-02-19 23:08:43 <TD> of course some kind of dumbed down consumer Windows that only runs the top 100 apps is possible
1582 2013-02-19 23:08:51 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1583 2013-02-19 23:09:08 <lidteri> linux 64 btw
1584 2013-02-19 23:09:10 <gmaxwell> TD: well, and sandboxing the heck out of them "can't interact with anything else, can't listen on the network".
1585 2013-02-19 23:09:38 <amiller> gmaxwell, you asked about a multiparty voting protocol for IRC votes
1586 2013-02-19 23:09:39 <gmaxwell> Esp since you can get keys for $100 or whatever the price is.
1587 2013-02-19 23:10:20 <amiller> the main requirement is a comparison function, for which the best construction is probably this one https://www.iacr.org/archive/pkc2007/44500343/44500343.pdf Toft2007 which is also implemented in Viff, the python library for SMC apps... so you could do it with that
1588 2013-02-19 23:10:41 <gmaxwell> amiller: well, I have one based on blind signatures and reencryption mixing. But I'm interested in solving vote privacy in the face of a unanimous vote.
1589 2013-02-19 23:11:16 <amiller> yeah so you can reveal the whole sum using just homomorphic addition but to compress to just one bit of output you need this comparison thing
1590 2013-02-19 23:11:23 <gmaxwell> sweet!
1591 2013-02-19 23:11:29 <gmaxwell> Thank you.
1592 2013-02-19 23:11:44 c00w has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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1597 2013-02-19 23:12:41 <gmaxwell> I did come up with another way of doing itâ you do the mix on >50% of the votes. And if its unanimous you stop and declare victory. If it's not you start over.
1598 2013-02-19 23:13:41 <gmaxwell> (start over and then do the mix with all of them, comfortable the the result won't be unanimous.. but that still leaks more data that needed, and e.g. doesn't work for two people)
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1603 2013-02-19 23:21:03 <MC1984> hmm i keep telling bitcoin wallt to disconnect and it keeps coming back
1604 2013-02-19 23:21:05 <bonks> Hey guys, so I reindexed after upgrading from 0.7 to 0.8 and now I have my original blk files and those in /blocks/
1605 2013-02-19 23:21:19 <bonks> Am I supposed to have all these files or can I delete some?
1606 2013-02-19 23:21:31 owowo has joined
1607 2013-02-19 23:22:31 <Goonie> bonks: they are just hardlinked
1608 2013-02-19 23:23:07 <Goonie> you can remove the original ones, but they don't hurt either
1609 2013-02-19 23:23:10 <TD> hey Goonie
1610 2013-02-19 23:23:34 <bonks> windows does not indicate any links
1611 2013-02-19 23:23:47 <Goonie> hi td
1612 2013-02-19 23:24:00 <bonks> Also total size of %appdata%/Bitcoin/ is 13.3GB
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1614 2013-02-19 23:24:14 <bonks> double the size before I upgraded
1615 2013-02-19 23:24:22 <TD> you can remove the old files
1616 2013-02-19 23:24:24 <Goonie> bonks: sorry don't know about Windows
1617 2013-02-19 23:24:40 <TD> see the post on the announcement forum thread about this
1618 2013-02-19 23:24:50 <TD> it seems to be confusing people quite a lot. probably, hardlinks on windows are too exotic to use
1619 2013-02-19 23:24:52 <bonks> Ok i'll look for that thread
1620 2013-02-19 23:25:14 <MC1984> hardlinks show up as double the size but really arnt?
1621 2013-02-19 23:25:32 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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1623 2013-02-19 23:27:18 <TD> yeah
1624 2013-02-19 23:27:29 <TD> apparently
1625 2013-02-19 23:28:19 <TD> Goonie: i just pushed some new code to master starting 0.8-SNAPSHOT, which queries bloom-capable nodes for their memory pool.
1626 2013-02-19 23:28:26 <TD> Goonie: so now you can start the app after a broadcast and still see it.
1627 2013-02-19 23:28:56 <MC1984> TD is bitcoin wallt supposed to do what i said?
1628 2013-02-19 23:29:18 masori has joined
1629 2013-02-19 23:29:33 <TD> wallt?
1630 2013-02-19 23:29:33 <Goonie> td: great!
1631 2013-02-19 23:29:46 <jaakkos> did someone try measuring ping to other nodes in the network
1632 2013-02-19 23:29:53 <MC1984> for android
1633 2013-02-19 23:30:02 <TD> oh, wallet
1634 2013-02-19 23:30:03 <jaakkos> a party could set up a large number of nodes in the network and listen+pass traffic
1635 2013-02-19 23:30:10 <TD> MC1984: what was it you said again? sorry
1636 2013-02-19 23:30:18 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1637 2013-02-19 23:30:22 <jaakkos> that could be used to deduce delays in the network
1638 2013-02-19 23:30:27 <TD> jaakkos: the latest release candidate of the android app shows you peers and their ping times
1639 2013-02-19 23:30:30 <MC1984> i give it th disconnect command and it comes back at random
1640 2013-02-19 23:30:36 RazielZ has joined
1641 2013-02-19 23:30:36 <jaakkos> which could be used to launch a feasible double spending attack
1642 2013-02-19 23:30:41 <MC1984> at the bottom with "1 peer connected" etc
1643 2013-02-19 23:31:09 <TD> MC1984: oh, i see you said that now. Goonie is the author, he'd know
1644 2013-02-19 23:31:18 <bonks> So which files in the root Bitcoin dir should I keep aside from the 3 new directories? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=gmY11Mzi
1645 2013-02-19 23:31:22 <TD> MC1984: the app will start by default when you plug or unplug it
1646 2013-02-19 23:31:27 <TD> MC1984: there's a preference to control that.
1647 2013-02-19 23:31:29 <Goonie> mc1984: uncheck sync on power if you don't want that
1648 2013-02-19 23:31:29 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: thats called a sybil attack attack, and its something our proof of work system broadly solvesâ so long as people are not foolish enough to accept unconfirmed transactions.
1649 2013-02-19 23:31:49 <MC1984> its been plugged in the whole time
1650 2013-02-19 23:32:40 <Goonie> mc1984: yeah that's why its syncing
1651 2013-02-19 23:32:40 <TD> MC1984: sounds like a debug log is needed â¦.
1652 2013-02-19 23:32:58 <TD> Goonie: oh it wakes up during the charge cycle too?
1653 2013-02-19 23:33:02 <TD> i thought it was only when you first plug it in
1654 2013-02-19 23:33:07 <TD> or unplug
1655 2013-02-19 23:33:19 <MC1984> wheres the log
1656 2013-02-19 23:33:28 <Goonie> no, its actually synching degressively
1657 2013-02-19 23:33:31 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: services benefit from accepting unconfirmed transactions
1658 2013-02-19 23:33:44 zooko has joined
1659 2013-02-19 23:33:44 <Goonie> meaning if you don't use the app, cycles become longer
1660 2013-02-19 23:34:05 <TD> interesting
1661 2013-02-19 23:34:09 <Goonie> mc: you can get the log with "adb logcat"
1662 2013-02-19 23:34:27 <TD> there are also apps on the play store that will dump the logs for you (to an email or whatever)
1663 2013-02-19 23:34:30 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: sure. Newspapers benefit from the lower cost of newspaper boxes that don't stop you from taking two papers. Bitcoin without confirmations is not very secure, this may or may not matter to you.
1664 2013-02-19 23:35:06 <gmaxwell> But we have a mechanism to provide security if you want it.
1665 2013-02-19 23:35:14 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1666 2013-02-19 23:36:26 CodeShark has joined
1667 2013-02-19 23:36:30 <Goonie> just promoted Bitcoin Wallet 2.40 to release candicate status
1668 2013-02-19 23:36:37 <TD> yay
1669 2013-02-19 23:36:46 <TD> now we just have to wait .....
1670 2013-02-19 23:37:09 <Goonie> td: already saw two 0.8 nodes. is that enough??? (-:
1671 2013-02-19 23:37:20 <masori> bonks, let me know when you get an answer to this
1672 2013-02-19 23:37:32 <MC1984> i seen 0.8 nodes in testnet
1673 2013-02-19 23:37:40 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: yeah, it's imo fine. compared to the banking system, it's just awesome.
1674 2013-02-19 23:37:43 <jgarzik> TD: (RE sanity check) I am lazy and just PGP-sign the git HEAD hash
1675 2013-02-19 23:37:52 <TD> yeah
1676 2013-02-19 23:37:52 <jgarzik> TD: everything else may be verified from there
1677 2013-02-19 23:37:58 * TD doesn't care much for GPG
1678 2013-02-19 23:38:17 <TD> Goonie: i only see 0.7.99 nodes :(
1679 2013-02-19 23:38:24 <TD> and old ones at that
1680 2013-02-19 23:38:32 <jgarzik> TD: GPG userbase is very tech oriented, ensuring it never reaches critical mass ;p
1681 2013-02-19 23:38:38 <TD> us2.exmulti.net is jgarzik right? :)
1682 2013-02-19 23:38:41 <jgarzik> TD: yes
1683 2013-02-19 23:38:51 <jgarzik> TD: us[24].exmulti.net, eu3.exmulti.net
1684 2013-02-19 23:38:59 <TD> you're running some old snapshot there?
1685 2013-02-19 23:39:00 <jgarzik> I need to update those for 0.8 release
1686 2013-02-19 23:39:12 subpar__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1687 2013-02-19 23:39:17 <jgarzik> TD: yeah, zero useful time for bitcoin since baby was born ;p
1688 2013-02-19 23:39:21 <TD> i bet :)
1689 2013-02-19 23:39:30 MajorBusiness is now known as WeLoveCP
1690 2013-02-19 23:39:45 <TD> i wonder if your kid will grow up seeing bitcoins as a totally normal and mainstream thing ...
1691 2013-02-19 23:39:49 <jgarzik> sleep, day job and baby care is very tightly scheduled. stuffed in a house closing
1692 2013-02-19 23:39:52 <jaakkos> bitcoin could enable some really awesome stuff in the future...
1693 2013-02-19 23:40:03 ThomasV has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1694 2013-02-19 23:40:38 DaQatz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1695 2013-02-19 23:40:40 <Goonie> td: depends on if jgarzik will pay the weekly allowance in bitcoin (-:
1696 2013-02-19 23:41:12 <jgarzik> hehe
1697 2013-02-19 23:41:23 JWU42_ has joined
1698 2013-02-19 23:41:38 <jgarzik> Kid gets a brokerage account at birth. I suppose they should get bitcoins too...
1699 2013-02-19 23:41:46 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1700 2013-02-19 23:41:50 JWU42_ is now known as JWU42
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1704 2013-02-19 23:45:22 <Luke-Jr> I need to update graphs for 0.8 final :/
1705 2013-02-19 23:48:52 mappum is now known as SirCpmwn
1706 2013-02-19 23:49:21 SirCpmwn is now known as mappum
1707 2013-02-19 23:49:53 mappum is now known as dylkues
1708 2013-02-19 23:50:09 dylkues is now known as xnotch
1709 2013-02-19 23:50:19 xnotch is now known as mappum
1710 2013-02-19 23:51:45 <Luke-Jr> I see 134x 0.8.0
1711 2013-02-19 23:53:35 <jaakkos> has someone consider sending linear combinations in GF(2) of all transactions/blocks? haven't thought of it much, just occurred to me
1712 2013-02-19 23:53:37 masori has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1713 2013-02-19 23:53:46 <jaakkos> something like network coding, that is
1714 2013-02-19 23:54:05 <jaakkos> you could reach the maximum flow of the network.
1715 2013-02-19 23:54:58 <jaakkos> all nodes can cancel the 'tail' with a simple operation in GF(2)
1716 2013-02-19 23:55:15 <Luke-Jr> nhttp://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html
1717 2013-02-19 23:55:31 <andytoshi> jaakkos: not quite sure what you mean, but you need to preserve all the information in the blocks for validating nodes
1718 2013-02-19 23:58:37 <bonks> masori: I deleted all the .dat files in the root and it runs fine. They were listed as hard links