1 2013-02-20 00:03:10 <etotheipi_> question for anyone familiar with Windows security:  how should bitcoin.conf be protected?
   2 2013-02-20 00:03:26 <etotheipi_> when you create it, do you have to mess with the permissions to make sure no one else can read it?
   3 2013-02-20 00:03:51 <etotheipi_> or are default permissions sufficient (i.e., already no one can read it, so you don't need to mess with it)
   4 2013-02-20 00:04:18 <MC1984> where the hell did the 0.8 relase thread go
   5 2013-02-20 00:04:25 <bonks> Since it's in your user %appdata%, it is inherently protected
   6 2013-02-20 00:04:31 <Luke-Jr> sorry, I accidentally it.
   7 2013-02-20 00:04:31 <sipa> MC1984: sticky
   8 2013-02-20 00:04:33 <MC1984> oh its a sticky
   9 2013-02-20 00:05:14 <MC1984> amazing how i have selective blindness for forum stickys
  10 2013-02-20 00:05:29 <bonks> etotheipi_: I have no need to protect my conf but for my wallet it is a symlink to a file in a truecrypt container which I mount only when needed
  11 2013-02-20 00:06:04 <etotheipi_> bonks, fair enough
  12 2013-02-20 00:06:22 <etotheipi_> but in the absence of encrypted volumes, I want to understand the Windows security model
  13 2013-02-20 00:06:46 <MobGod> what is the best way to upgrade from 0.7.2 beta
  14 2013-02-20 00:07:03 <jaakkos> andytoshi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_network_coding
  15 2013-02-20 00:07:10 [ken] has quit (Quit: leaving)
  16 2013-02-20 00:07:48 RBecker is now known as rbecker
  17 2013-02-20 00:09:19 <andytoshi> jaakkos: oh, very cool
  18 2013-02-20 00:09:47 <MobGod> jaakkos any info on a upgrade
  19 2013-02-20 00:10:02 <MobGod> i've been hearing people had to download the whole chain again
  20 2013-02-20 00:10:02 <etotheipi_> sipa: does anyone here even use bitcoind.exe in Windows?  ever?
  21 2013-02-20 00:10:16 <etotheipi_> err.. that wasn't mean to be directed at sipa
  22 2013-02-20 00:10:52 <MobGod> gavinandresen your on a mac right ?
  23 2013-02-20 00:11:22 <sipa> MobGod: shutdown cleanly, install 0.8.0, fire it up
  24 2013-02-20 00:11:44 <sipa> you don't need to redownload the chain
  25 2013-02-20 00:11:54 <sipa> you do have to process it again (but it should be fast at this)
  26 2013-02-20 00:12:21 <MobGod> sipa ok i've seen today a couple people talking they had to red ownload the chain
  27 2013-02-20 00:12:38 <andytoshi> jaakkos: i see two problems with trying to linear-code the blockchain
  28 2013-02-20 00:13:07 <andytoshi> 1. if you want to verify blocks, having a block isn't super useful if you don't have all the previous ones
  29 2013-02-20 00:13:34 coolsa_ has joined
  30 2013-02-20 00:13:36 <andytoshi> 2. you always want to know you know the -latest- block, and linear coding might make this difficult or slow
  31 2013-02-20 00:13:56 <andytoshi> (3. most of the time, everyone is only transmitting the last block or few)
  32 2013-02-20 00:14:19 <jaakkos> one always has a complete chain up to some point. new data is not relayed before it is decoded and verified.
  33 2013-02-20 00:15:13 <andytoshi> right, but when doing an IBD, you would wind up having a fuzzy picture of the whole chain, and wouldn't be able to start verifying until you had a clear picture of some interval beginning at the genesis
  34 2013-02-20 00:16:00 coolsa has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  35 2013-02-20 00:16:44 <andytoshi> maybe if the chain was split into 10000-block chunks or something, and these were independently requested (and only coded within a chunk)..
  36 2013-02-20 00:16:51 <jaakkos> i am currently seeing scalability problems
  37 2013-02-20 00:16:56 <jaakkos> in the coding
  38 2013-02-20 00:17:17 <andytoshi> you can chase that wikipedia link you posted to : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalanche_filesystem
  39 2013-02-20 00:17:27 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: doesn't really address a useful challenge that we have in bitcoin, though if you'd like to create an implementation to play with it I can recommend this library: http://planete-bcast.inrialpes.fr/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=5
  40 2013-02-20 00:17:28 <andytoshi> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/avalanche/default.aspx
  41 2013-02-20 00:18:37 <jaakkos> i actually have my own linear coding library
  42 2013-02-20 00:19:05 <gmaxwell> Freenet is FEC coded... for freenet there are a number of advantages. For Bitcoin we're more easily CPU bound, than transmission or reliablity bounded.
  43 2013-02-20 00:19:37 llama has quit (Quit: llama)
  44 2013-02-20 00:20:21 <gmaxwell> (for us— we wouldn't want to relay data unless we knew it was valid. ... and so any peer that relays to you has the data. In which case you can byte-stripe a transmission however you like, without the complexity of linear coding— if you even care at all about parallel fetching data, which we currently don't)
  45 2013-02-20 00:20:22 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: Foundation consider offering a reward for (private disclosure of) any vulnerabilities that can be used to do <x>?
  46 2013-02-20 00:21:27 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: meh. That shifts the motivations towards coin operation, but its unlikely that they can afford the cost of actually paying for security work.
  47 2013-02-20 00:22:10 <gmaxwell> (also— it risks overemphaizing "security" issues over all the other kinds of bug which could be absolutely devastating)
  48 2013-02-20 00:22:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: same goes for other bounties *shrug*
  49 2013-02-20 00:23:04 <gmaxwell> Meh, for some things where the work isn't getting done otherwise, and the bounties are small it at least doesn't really compete with anything else.
  50 2013-02-20 00:23:07 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Pay too much and you risk people seeing disclosure as just another way to generate value from your vulnerability, exploitation being the other. Sure it's an "irrational" cultural thing, but psychology matters.
  51 2013-02-20 00:23:18 llama has joined
  52 2013-02-20 00:23:39 llama has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  53 2013-02-20 00:23:46 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: You also don't want people withholding partial vulnerabilities still being discussed, because they want to figure out the vulnerability fully to collect the bounty.
  54 2013-02-20 00:24:46 <gmaxwell> petertodd: or on the flipside of that coin— people 'disclosing' half formed armwaving at vulnerabilties and feeling cheated when they don't get paid.
  55 2013-02-20 00:24:57 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Lots of vulnerabilities in Bitcoin are subtle ones inherent to the technology, so discovering them is a gradual process.
  56 2013-02-20 00:25:17 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  57 2013-02-20 00:25:27 <gmaxwell> "nodes can send other nodes addresses to their peers! vulnerability!"
  58 2013-02-20 00:25:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yeah, that too, and again, equally true with Bitcoin. We have the problem where there are vulnerabilities that take huge amounts of coin to exploit, and sometimes aren't even testable on testnet.
  59 2013-02-20 00:29:29 <Luke-Jr> lol, I mention someone "looking for fraud" and my 5 year old in the other room shouts "I love fraud (frogs)!"
  60 2013-02-20 00:29:52 <petertodd> lol!
  61 2013-02-20 00:33:11 <gmaxwell> So we must boil the fraud slowly?
  62 2013-02-20 00:33:28 <petertodd> ...and kiss the fraud?
  63 2013-02-20 00:34:09 <Goonie> Luke-Jr: is your new graph a snapshot or dynamical?
  64 2013-02-20 00:34:40 <Luke-Jr> Goonie: those charts are dynamic, updated regularly
  65 2013-02-20 00:34:50 <Goonie> great, thx
  66 2013-02-20 00:35:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: host keys!
  67 2013-02-20 00:35:27 <Luke-Jr> although obviously it doesn't maintain connections to every node, so it does take time to update
  68 2013-02-20 00:35:52 <Luke-Jr> my scripts are actually maintaining a git repo of the historical data if anyone wants that
  69 2013-02-20 00:36:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: host keys! .. wait. What are we talking about?
  70 2013-02-20 00:36:28 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: pizza
  71 2013-02-20 00:36:35 <gmaxwell> Oh good.
  72 2013-02-20 00:36:59 <sipa> gmaxwell: if addr messages are signed by the host, ... eh that doesn't solve anything
  73 2013-02-20 00:37:23 rbecker is now known as RBecker
  74 2013-02-20 00:37:33 <sipa> Luke-Jr: oh no, your 5-year old looks destined to become a politician
  75 2013-02-20 00:37:48 <Luke-Jr> >_<
  76 2013-02-20 00:38:24 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I think you're pondering a problem I pondered for an hour last night before panicing to gmaxwell :P
  77 2013-02-20 00:39:30 <sipa> eh?
  78 2013-02-20 00:39:54 <gmaxwell> sipa: pairing encryption, with miners publishing the PKG keys in their blocks. Then you can show that a majority of hashpower agrees you own your own address. :P
  79 2013-02-20 00:40:17 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, sipa has mused about that issue before. And we've talked about host keys for it.
  80 2013-02-20 00:40:18 <sipa> ehhh right
  81 2013-02-20 00:40:54 <sipa> gmaxwell: addr packets could gain signatures by hosts that have succesfully connected to them
  82 2013-02-20 00:40:59 <sipa> -> web of trust!
  83 2013-02-20 00:41:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: btw, latest battle in Magazine world.. Matonis has a draft article insisting governments would fail trying to ban Bitcoin -.-
  84 2013-02-20 00:41:31 <sipa> he has he ever written anything else?
  85 2013-02-20 00:41:52 <sipa> sorry, never actually read, but that's all i see him posting on twitter
  86 2013-02-20 00:42:13 <gmaxwell> ::sigh::
  87 2013-02-20 00:42:16 <Luke-Jr> sipa: sometimes i wonder if those lines are the whole point to the article :/
  88 2013-02-20 00:42:29 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
  89 2013-02-20 00:42:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: whats the basis of his misunderstanding?  E.g. does he mistake the robustness, or mistake the lack of usefulness of the system in its degraded state?
  90 2013-02-20 00:43:02 <Luke-Jr> sipa: are you receiving the Magazine btw? Tony said he'd be subscribing every regular dev
  91 2013-02-20 00:43:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'm not sure, he seems to have set the actual draft so I can't read it -.-
  92 2013-02-20 00:43:18 zooko has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  93 2013-02-20 00:43:36 <Luke-Jr> so I only get the title right now
  94 2013-02-20 00:43:52 <Luke-Jr> "Government Ban On Bitcoin Would Fail Miserably"
  95 2013-02-20 00:44:22 <sipa> http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/01/28/government-ban-on-bitcoin-would-fail-miserably/
  96 2013-02-20 00:44:31 <petertodd> Yeah I've read that one, he makes some ok points, but he's way too optimistic I think...
  97 2013-02-20 00:44:35 <EagleTM> BTC mag now uses Amazon to ship :) that's a plus
  98 2013-02-20 00:44:40 <Luke-Jr> sipa: dead link?
  99 2013-02-20 00:45:09 <sipa> works fine here, after the ad
 100 2013-02-20 00:45:11 alexwaters2 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 101 2013-02-20 00:45:14 Aexoden has joined
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 103 2013-02-20 00:45:31 * gmaxwell wonders if sipa browses with a browser with flash
 104 2013-02-20 00:45:37 <gmaxwell> It's a dead link for me too.
 105 2013-02-20 00:45:40 <tcatm> Who administrates the "dev team server"?
 106 2013-02-20 00:45:53 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no, i got two issues for free at the london conference
 107 2013-02-20 00:45:57 darksk1ez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 108 2013-02-20 00:46:07 <sipa> tcatm: gavinandresen mostly
 109 2013-02-20 00:46:14 <tcatm> good :)
 110 2013-02-20 00:46:17 <MobGod> sipa do i need the block chain to be current for this
 111 2013-02-20 00:46:28 <Luke-Jr> hmm, odd
 112 2013-02-20 00:46:33 <Luke-Jr> opening the link a 2nd time works
 113 2013-02-20 00:46:39 <MobGod> or can i just close qt down than update or no
 114 2013-02-20 00:47:41 <sipa> MobGod: just shutdown cleanly - there is no difference between 'synced' and 'not synced' (the former becomes the latter if time changes)
 115 2013-02-20 00:47:47 <Luke-Jr> ugh, this article is even attacking the good guys :/
 116 2013-02-20 00:48:30 darksk1ez has joined
 117 2013-02-20 00:48:55 <tcatm> sipa: do you know whether there's already virtualization on the server (e.g. libvirt)?
 118 2013-02-20 00:48:58 <MobGod> Luke-Jr so if i just shutdown i'm fine no force quit correct
 119 2013-02-20 00:49:18 <Luke-Jr> MobGod: just be sure it shuts down cleanly, completely
 120 2013-02-20 00:49:22 <sipa> tcatm: afaik, it runs several machines, but i must admit i haven't actually connected to it
 121 2013-02-20 00:49:25 <Luke-Jr> MobGod: maybe wait 15 minutes just to be sure
 122 2013-02-20 00:49:27 <gavinandresen> tcatm: BlueMatt did the initial server setup, it is hosting a couple of VMs
 123 2013-02-20 00:49:31 <sipa> tcatm: *virtual
 124 2013-02-20 00:49:38 <tcatm> great
 125 2013-02-20 00:49:53 <tcatm> so we could just move the vm that renders the website and it should work
 126 2013-02-20 00:50:48 <sipa> Bitcoin-Qt version 0.8.8 released? :O
 127 2013-02-20 00:50:49 <tcatm> someone should update the website repo. it reads "0.8.8" now.
 128 2013-02-20 00:50:57 <gavinandresen> tcatm: yes… probably best to talk with BlueMatt about getting that done
 129 2013-02-20 00:51:07 <tcatm> BlueMatt: ping
 130 2013-02-20 00:51:27 <gavinandresen> can somebody else fix the 0.8.8 ?  I'm headed out the door for a while....
 131 2013-02-20 00:51:37 <sipa> i'll fix it
 132 2013-02-20 00:51:42 <gavinandresen> thanks
 133 2013-02-20 00:52:29 <sipa> you mind if i change Bitcoin-Qt to Bitcoin?
 134 2013-02-20 00:52:35 <sipa> or is that intentional
 135 2013-02-20 00:54:19 davout has quit ()
 136 2013-02-20 00:56:10 <Luke-Jr> sipa: imo intentional; it's not like it's Bitcoin itself
 137 2013-02-20 00:57:30 <sipa> I consider Bitcoin-Qt to be a frontend that is part of our codebase, this seems to imply it's just an update to the GUI
 138 2013-02-20 00:58:21 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: if you start insisting on calling the software "satoshi" I stab you.
 139 2013-02-20 00:58:39 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that was wumpus's idea I think..
 140 2013-02-20 00:59:07 <gmaxwell> If you want another name, perhaps— Bitcoin(-Qt)
 141 2013-02-20 00:59:12 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I consider Bitcoin-Qt and bitcoind two separate software products that share common library code that hasn't been properly abstracted into a library yet
 142 2013-02-20 00:59:21 <sipa> well it is true that we have no real name for the whole project
 143 2013-02-20 00:59:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I've heard it called "Bitcoin Wallet" also
 144 2013-02-20 00:59:40 <gmaxwell> How about "Bitcoin", if thats not already taken. :P
 145 2013-02-20 01:00:01 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: it is. we have like 50 things called Bitcoin already
 146 2013-02-20 01:00:03 <sipa> "The reference client" and "The Satoshi client" are used, but that's no very nice
 147 2013-02-20 01:00:52 <midnightmagic> The baseline client.. hrm.. the mainline client. The primary client?
 148 2013-02-20 01:01:09 <petertodd> ...yet we don't really expect most people to actually use it.
 149 2013-02-20 01:01:25 <zackham> reference implementation seems most accurate
 150 2013-02-20 01:01:28 <midnightmagic> sure we do. :)
 151 2013-02-20 01:01:41 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: those positions are accidental though
 152 2013-02-20 01:01:56 <gmaxwell> I'm fine with 'reference', I strongly dislike satoshi.  It should be like people on money, you only get your name on it after you're dead. Seeing that he's Satoshi can never die. :P
 153 2013-02-20 01:01:59 <petertodd> Until the reference implementation supports SPV mode I can't really recommend it.
 154 2013-02-20 01:02:00 <zackham> as it expresses some agreed-upon defaults that aren't well defined in the protocol (like expected transaction fee)
 155 2013-02-20 01:02:09 <midnightmagic> zackham: Except that implies there is something to which the reference implementation adhered, but the reference implementation itself defines the rules..
 156 2013-02-20 01:02:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I thought Spesmilo was a cute choice of name for that client
 157 2013-02-20 01:02:21 <gjs278> is 0.8.0 supposed to start the blockchain over again...
 158 2013-02-20 01:02:30 <zackham> yea, it is the implementation you use for reference, since there is no reference documentation =)
 159 2013-02-20 01:02:37 <sipa> gjs278: it needs to reindex the chain you have, as the database layout changed
 160 2013-02-20 01:02:42 <gjs278> ah ok
 161 2013-02-20 01:02:42 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: only because it has a supermajority of deployment
 162 2013-02-20 01:03:24 <Luke-Jr> I know! Let's call it .. Pikachuu!
 163 2013-02-20 01:03:25 <gmaxwell> Dominant Node.
 164 2013-02-20 01:03:32 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 165 2013-02-20 01:03:32 * Luke-Jr runs
 166 2013-02-20 01:03:38 <zackham> is there a well defined protocol anywhere? the whitepaper is pretty vague
 167 2013-02-20 01:03:46 <midnightmagic> zackham: No.
 168 2013-02-20 01:03:48 <gmaxwell> zackham: the software is the definition of the protocol.
 169 2013-02-20 01:03:54 <sipa> let's call it 'Ni'
 170 2013-02-20 01:04:01 <midnightmagic> Ooh I like that one.
 171 2013-02-20 01:04:05 <midnightmagic> herring v0.1
 172 2013-02-20 01:04:05 <Luke-Jr> how about Andetigo?
 173 2013-02-20 01:04:35 <petertodd> Oh I know, Tonal!
 174 2013-02-20 01:04:38 <midnightmagic> and every time it looks like it's getting near v1.0, just rename it to something else and restart at v0.1
 175 2013-02-20 01:04:52 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: then you have to merge pull #929
 176 2013-02-20 01:05:04 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: that doesn't make sense.
 177 2013-02-20 01:05:19 <gmaxwell> I propose we name it: crumpled almighty seabird microscope facial examine topmost congregate snowcap guitarist
 178 2013-02-20 01:05:22 <gmaxwell> indoors antenna Oakland microwave steamship supportive unearth vagabond printer narrative
 179 2013-02-20 01:05:34 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: that can be the fundemental mystery of the Tonal client
 180 2013-02-20 01:05:35 <gmaxwell> (this is the hash of the first commit in git, converted into english with the pgp wordlist)
 181 2013-02-20 01:05:35 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: it does if you preferred the old 1.x.x NetBSD numbering scheme.
 182 2013-02-20 01:05:36 <sipa> casmfetcsgiaomssuvpn!
 183 2013-02-20 01:05:51 <gmaxwell> casmfetcsgiaomssuvpn!
 184 2013-02-20 01:06:05 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: first commit? lol
 185 2013-02-20 01:06:14 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: all the subversion commits exist twice in the git repo…
 186 2013-02-20 01:07:17 JZavala has joined
 187 2013-02-20 01:07:37 <Luke-Jr> e071a3f6c06f41068ad17134189a4ac3073ef76b or 4405b78d6059e536c36974088a8ed4d9f0f29898 ?
 188 2013-02-20 01:07:59 <petertodd> how about 000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f?
 189 2013-02-20 01:08:11 <petertodd> 00 for short
 190 2013-02-20 01:08:16 <sipa> genesis hash?
 191 2013-02-20 01:08:22 <petertodd> sipa: yup
 192 2013-02-20 01:08:27 <Luke-Jr> oooh I  know
 193 2013-02-20 01:08:30 <Luke-Jr> "Second Bailout"
 194 2013-02-20 01:08:37 <petertodd> sipa: actually 'Genesis Hash'
 195 2013-02-20 01:08:55 <gmaxwell> BAND NAME
 196 2013-02-20 01:09:08 <petertodd> 'Deflationary Pressures'
 197 2013-02-20 01:09:12 <gmaxwell> aardvark adroitness aardvark adroitness aardvark bottomless stockman gravity python antenna
 198 2013-02-20 01:09:15 <gmaxwell> enlist tolerance fracture Jamaica berserk molasses dropper voyager flatfoot performance
 199 2013-02-20 01:09:18 <gmaxwell> cubic Pacific rematch recover highchair pocketful unwind potato allow megaton
 200 2013-02-20 01:09:21 <gmaxwell> tiger hemisphere
 201 2013-02-20 01:09:30 <sipa> how about an ubuntu style name?
 202 2013-02-20 01:09:31 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I see you use the same algorithm I do to pick server names.
 203 2013-02-20 01:09:34 <sipa> Bulky Blockchain!
 204 2013-02-20 01:09:41 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I'd rather Debian's Toy Story <.<
 205 2013-02-20 01:09:44 <Luke-Jr> lol
 206 2013-02-20 01:10:00 <Luke-Jr> we should make a contest on BitcoinTroll
 207 2013-02-20 01:10:07 <Luke-Jr> that's working out very well for me
 208 2013-02-20 01:10:13 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: why not follow Borg designations? seven of nine...
 209 2013-02-20 01:10:26 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: link?
 210 2013-02-20 01:10:30 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: or well-known trolls 'Atlas'
 211 2013-02-20 01:10:46 <Luke-Jr> http://bitcointroll.org/?topic=145052
 212 2013-02-20 01:12:07 <EagleTM> gmaxwell: sounds like brainwallets to me
 213 2013-02-20 01:12:10 <jgarzik> once again, naming discussions consume significant portions of scrollback ;p
 214 2013-02-20 01:12:41 * Luke-Jr sets up an autoreplace for bitcointroll.org
 215 2013-02-20 01:12:44 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: is your child named yet? we could work on that next.  We're the best at names.
 216 2013-02-20 01:12:53 <Luke-Jr> LOL
 217 2013-02-20 01:12:55 <petertodd> jgarzik: Hey, I've got a fine arts degree, I know what color this bike-shed should be.
 218 2013-02-20 01:13:32 <sipa> gjs278: you give names to your child threads? :o
 219 2013-02-20 01:13:36 <sipa> eh, gmaxwell:
 220 2013-02-20 01:13:52 <gjs278> I have a hard time naming computer threads
 221 2013-02-20 01:14:12 <sipa> just a PID ought to be enough
 222 2013-02-20 01:14:20 <Luke-Jr> but threads share the same PID!
 223 2013-02-20 01:14:29 <petertodd> I name all my Bitcoin-related servers, alice, bob, charles, eve, mallory...
 224 2013-02-20 01:14:45 <gmaxwell> Watchout for mallory.
 225 2013-02-20 01:14:52 <sipa> Luke-Jr: yeah, now they do :)
 226 2013-02-20 01:15:07 <petertodd> Yeah, I put backups on trent instead...
 227 2013-02-20 01:15:11 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: the real secret is to first name it something unprouncable. And then when people make fun of your name, you use the mocking suggestions they made for future versions.
 228 2013-02-20 01:15:13 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ugh, don't remind me!
 229 2013-02-20 01:15:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: didn't work for those people in Chad
 230 2013-02-20 01:15:51 <sipa> their capital is still called Ndjamena
 231 2013-02-20 01:16:00 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: Mental diversions..
 232 2013-02-20 01:16:23 <EagleTM> .com domain name was still free you know :)
 233 2013-02-20 01:16:29 <Luke-Jr> lol
 234 2013-02-20 01:17:23 logic420 has joined
 235 2013-02-20 01:17:26 <logic420> i need a coder to help me setup a payment gateway for my site, please msg me
 236 2013-02-20 01:18:45 <gjs278> geez... 86% cpu on 5 threads for bitcoind right now
 237 2013-02-20 01:19:28 <sipa> gjs278: if you want less CPU usage, use less threads
 238 2013-02-20 01:20:07 <gjs278> I see it now
 239 2013-02-20 01:20:21 <sipa> it's intended to be fast, so it will use whatever you give it
 240 2013-02-20 01:20:52 <gjs278> should I adjust dbcache, I have ram to blow if it will help
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 249 2013-02-20 01:49:02 <richardus> hi guys, is there an interface to the bitcoin dev mailing list that isn't the awful sourceforge one?
 250 2013-02-20 01:49:08 <richardus> web interface, that is
 251 2013-02-20 01:50:13 <sipa> your mail client? :)
 252 2013-02-20 01:50:37 <richardus> you know, i added in the second line thinking that some smart ass would say that
 253 2013-02-20 01:50:56 <sipa> it's mirrored on several places, but the SF one is the main one i think
 254 2013-02-20 01:51:35 <richardus> oh it's on gmane, great
 255 2013-02-20 01:52:07 <sipa> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.bitcoin.devel
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 268 2013-02-20 02:32:49 <muhoo> heh, satoshi dice runs on bitcoinj?
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 270 2013-02-20 02:47:02 <swhitt> the desktop client...
 271 2013-02-20 02:47:15 <swhitt> which is why it has issues spending unconfirmed coins
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 294 2013-02-20 04:42:35 <MobGod> sipa when i install the new qt do i replace files or keep both?
 295 2013-02-20 04:42:58 <MobGod> i would think keep both but just checking
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 303 2013-02-20 05:07:28 <jgarzik> Call for bittorrent testers...  http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/bootstrap.dat.torrent
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 305 2013-02-20 05:07:52 <Haifisch> jgarzik call received
 306 2013-02-20 05:08:03 HM has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 307 2013-02-20 05:08:18 * Haifisch picks up phone
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 311 2013-02-20 05:13:38 <jgarzik> firewall problem on this side
 312 2013-02-20 05:13:41 <jgarzik> wait
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 316 2013-02-20 05:20:39 <randy-waterhouse> will 0.8 clean up extra copies of blockchain when it has re-indexed?
 317 2013-02-20 05:21:05 <jgarzik> no
 318 2013-02-20 05:21:19 <randy-waterhouse> which ones can be deleted  then?
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 326 2013-02-20 05:37:14 <randy-waterhouse> so do we need to keep two copies of blockchain now? i.e. one in ~/.bitcoin and another in ~/.bitcoin/blocks/
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 332 2013-02-20 05:48:07 <gmaxwell> randy-waterhouse: no.
 333 2013-02-20 05:48:18 <gmaxwell> randy-waterhouse: it creates a hardlink, you only have one copy.
 334 2013-02-20 05:49:12 <gmaxwell> randy-waterhouse: and the filename in ~/.bitcoin is only needed so you can switch back to an old version.
 335 2013-02-20 05:49:12 <randy-waterhouse> gmaxwell: thnx, hadn't noticed that
 336 2013-02-20 05:49:34 <randy-waterhouse> ah, makes sense
 337 2013-02-20 05:52:02 jevin has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 338 2013-02-20 05:54:45 <randy-waterhouse> might be useful info in Gavin's notes on release page ... ?
 339 2013-02-20 05:54:48 HM has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 341 2013-02-20 05:58:58 <jgarzik> Does this work?  magnet:?xt=urn:btih:6fe493ba606847eac163baf35aae9db319735482&dn=bootstrap.dat&tr=udp://tracker.openbittorrent.com:80&tr=udp://tracker.publicbt.com:80&tr=udp://tracker.ccc.de:80&tr=udp://tracker.istole.it:80
 342 2013-02-20 05:59:50 <randy-waterhouse> what does "Misbehaving : 173.242.112.53:8333 (0 -> 0) message indicate?
 343 2013-02-20 06:02:24 Lexa has joined
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 346 2013-02-20 06:04:06 <Haifisch> any java coders here?
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 354 2013-02-20 06:19:21 ZenBalance has joined
 355 2013-02-20 06:20:33 <ZenBalance> Does anyone know how to trouble shoot a curl: (7) couldn't connect to host error when trying to remotely connect to a bitcoind server via rpc?
 356 2013-02-20 06:21:08 <Luke-Jr> don't do bitcoind remotely.
 357 2013-02-20 06:21:18 HM has joined
 358 2013-02-20 06:23:56 <Luke-Jr> .. what is with all these BSD users suddenly?
 359 2013-02-20 06:25:31 <gmaxwell> grarpamp has been around forever, and with the same not terribly useful bug reports about incorrect uninitilzied warnings from really old gccs.
 360 2013-02-20 06:26:29 [u]{s}[e]{r} has joined
 361 2013-02-20 06:27:13 <ne0futur> ZenBalance: check your firewalls on the 2 sides ( client and server ), netstat could help too on the server side
 362 2013-02-20 06:28:04 <ZenBalance> ah! Do I have to have a specific port on the computer I am curling from open?
 363 2013-02-20 06:28:14 <ZenBalance> I am a little bit of a novice, so I am not too familiar with netstat
 364 2013-02-20 06:28:21 HM has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 365 2013-02-20 06:28:44 <Luke-Jr> ne0futur: he's probably not using -rpcallowip <.<
 366 2013-02-20 06:28:57 <Luke-Jr> ZenBalance: but seriously, it's a bad idea to remotely connect to bitcoind RPC
 367 2013-02-20 06:29:08 <ZenBalance> why?
 368 2013-02-20 06:29:19 <ZenBalance> I am using rpcallowip
 369 2013-02-20 06:29:28 <ZenBalance> I can do the curl locally, just not remotely
 370 2013-02-20 06:29:51 <ZenBalance> I was planning on having a front facing site that made remote calls to a bitcoind server on another machine. Is that poor design?
 371 2013-02-20 06:30:02 <Luke-Jr> yes
 372 2013-02-20 06:30:26 <ZenBalance> what would be a better one?
 373 2013-02-20 06:30:34 <ne0futur> Luke-Jr: if the fireewall allows only one ip to connect . . . is it really bad ?
 374 2013-02-20 06:30:41 <Luke-Jr> put the real wallet machine offline. encrypt its wallet. when you boot it, use walletpassphrase with some insanely huge timeout (so it never locks)
 375 2013-02-20 06:31:03 <Luke-Jr> now generate 10000 addresses and put those in a database on the webserver
 376 2013-02-20 06:31:18 <Luke-Jr> copy wallet.dat to the webserver now, and run bitcoind there too - but DON'T unlock it ever
 377 2013-02-20 06:31:41 <Luke-Jr> ne0futur: IP-based security is pretty bad; and you're still transmitting your password clear
 378 2013-02-20 06:32:03 <ne0futur> true
 379 2013-02-20 06:32:40 <ne0futur> (07:59) < ZenBalanc> I am a little bit of a novice, so I am not too familiar with netstat
 380 2013-02-20 06:32:45 <Luke-Jr> ZenBalance: if you do it that way, no matter how much your webserver gets compromised, your funds are safe on the offline machine
 381 2013-02-20 06:32:49 <gmaxwell> ne0futur: e.g. someone who's compromised an upstream router from you— or even perhaps another host on the same subnet— can sniff then spoof and take all your coins.
 382 2013-02-20 06:33:10 <ZenBalance> ah, okay. I think I understand most of that
 383 2013-02-20 06:33:23 <ne0futur> ZenBalance: if I were you I wouldnt try to host a bitcoin service without having a good linux sysadmin first ;)
 384 2013-02-20 06:33:33 <Luke-Jr> ZenBalance: when you want to spend them, you can decide whether to risk connecting the wallet machine to the net, or learn to use the raw transaction API to copy transactions over USB sticks or such
 385 2013-02-20 06:33:58 <Luke-Jr> what ne0futur just said too ;)
 386 2013-02-20 06:34:11 <Luke-Jr> ZenBalance: you might also take a serious look at BitPay and similar services - they do all this stuff for you
 387 2013-02-20 06:34:16 <ZenBalance> hmm…where would be the best place to better familiarize myself with this?
 388 2013-02-20 06:34:41 <Luke-Jr> ZenBalance: sadly, I think we're very lacking in good docs on all this :<
 389 2013-02-20 06:34:43 <randy-waterhouse> first consultation free?
 390 2013-02-20 06:34:51 <ZenBalance> I am doing this for a school project (so I don't plan on moving more than the smallest amount of BTC that I can) the point is to familiarize myself more with sysadmin stuff and encryption
 391 2013-02-20 06:36:06 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: actually, has anyone we know audited BitPay's setup at all? Tony seems like a reasonably competent person, but Bitcoin stuff can be difficult to get right
 392 2013-02-20 06:36:16 <ne0futur> ZenBalance: after 10 years familiarizing with sysadmin , I still dont feel strong enough to host a bitcoin service ;)
 393 2013-02-20 06:36:27 <Luke-Jr> ZenBalance: I highly recommend using testnet then :P
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 398 2013-02-20 06:38:46 <ZenBalance> okay, cool. I'll look into that then. Still remains though, where would you guys recommend I start reading to learn more about the security involved?
 399 2013-02-20 06:39:29 <andytoshi> ZenBalance: keep an eye on this channel, basically.. as luke says, we have a lack of docs
 400 2013-02-20 06:39:36 <Luke-Jr> ZenBalance: sadly, to be competent in Bitcoin security, I think one needs to familiarize themselves with how it works at a very low level
 401 2013-02-20 06:39:56 <Luke-Jr> and also be competent in ordinary security, which is the part I lack :/
 402 2013-02-20 06:40:14 <Luke-Jr> (well, not that I'm incompetent in ordinary security, but I'm no security expert)
 403 2013-02-20 06:41:24 <ZenBalance> hmm…then another question: Do you have any suggestions for some interesting projects that might get me more familiar with bitcoin without having to worry about too much risk?
 404 2013-02-20 06:41:38 <Luke-Jr> ZenBalance: testnet!
 405 2013-02-20 06:41:48 <Luke-Jr> ZenBalance: just run bitcoind with the -testnet option and it's all monopoly money
 406 2013-02-20 06:42:20 <ZenBalance> Sorry, yes. Definitely using testnet, but what I meant is what simple projects might be a good way to start?
 407 2013-02-20 06:42:26 <andytoshi> ZenBalance: it might be cool to implement probablistic transactions
 408 2013-02-20 06:42:32 <ZenBalance> for instance, would a simple version of satoshi dice be hard to implement?
 409 2013-02-20 06:42:34 <andytoshi> that'd force you to learn the low level stuff
 410 2013-02-20 06:42:44 <andytoshi> ZenBalance: if you did it with probablistic transactions                                                                  │ ByronJohnson
 411 2013-02-20 06:42:47 <Luke-Jr> ZenBalance: read bitcoin.pdf for sure
 412 2013-02-20 06:42:50 <andytoshi> (sorry, copy/paste error)
 413 2013-02-20 06:42:55 <ZenBalance> what do you mean by probabilistic transactions?
 414 2013-02-20 06:43:01 <Luke-Jr> ZenBalance: read the source code until you understand what's actually going on under the hood
 415 2013-02-20 06:43:03 <Luke-Jr> etc
 416 2013-02-20 06:43:06 <andytoshi> one moment, i have a couple links..
 417 2013-02-20 06:43:16 <ZenBalance> have read the pdf, only understand around 10-20% of it
 418 2013-02-20 06:43:26 <andytoshi> here is my doc on probablistic transactions: http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/bitcoin-probablistic-payments.pdf
 419 2013-02-20 06:43:47 <Luke-Jr> ZenBalance: you probably want to understand 100% of it
 420 2013-02-20 06:44:11 <andytoshi> there is also a wiki page with links to the forum thread where the idea was first posted..i badly failed to cite on that PDF
 421 2013-02-20 06:44:25 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 422 2013-02-20 06:44:58 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: no, naming it satoshi client was not my idea, but like Sipa I prefer one name for the whole project
 423 2013-02-20 06:45:28 <andytoshi> ZenBalance https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Nanopayments
 424 2013-02-20 06:45:37 <wumpus> and I really don't like bitcoin-qt, it was a temporary working title while I was working on the "new gui", I expected it to go away when merged
 425 2013-02-20 06:46:29 <wumpus> certainly not for people to start calling the entire project that...
 426 2013-02-20 06:47:21 <ne0futur> ZenBalance: google is a good place to start searching about iptables -L and netstat
 427 2013-02-20 06:47:23 <andytoshi> wumpus: haha
 428 2013-02-20 06:48:23 <wumpus> no one gives a shit what gui rendering toolkit is used, it certainly shouldn't be part of the name of a program
 429 2013-02-20 06:48:48 <andytoshi> wumpus: people gave a shit when it was "wx, but not the released wx"
 430 2013-02-20 06:48:59 <wumpus> well developers give a shit but they have other way to find out like lookin at the source 
 431 2013-02-20 06:49:06 <wumpus> or the about menu for that sake
 432 2013-02-20 06:49:31 <wumpus> really those two letter abbreviations like wx or qt don't tell users anything
 433 2013-02-20 06:49:34 <ZenBalance> hmm…andytoshi, so basically probabilistic transactions are a way to implement really small transactions in a feasible manner
 434 2013-02-20 06:49:41 <ZenBalance> this is really low level stuff, no?
 435 2013-02-20 06:49:43 <ZenBalance> Pretty cool
 436 2013-02-20 06:49:55 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: meh, do brands need to contain useful info?
 437 2013-02-20 06:50:04 <ZenBalance> I'm not sure if I have the cryptography experience to implement something like that though
 438 2013-02-20 06:50:38 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: maybe they don't, but adding a name of a ui library distracts from the underlying, financial part that is the focus imo 
 439 2013-02-20 06:50:42 HM has joined
 440 2013-02-20 06:51:13 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yeah, probably want a name that sounds good for individuals but not big business or something
 441 2013-02-20 06:51:24 <Luke-Jr> I still think a contest would be a good idea :p
 442 2013-02-20 06:52:30 <wumpus> hehe, maybe
 443 2013-02-20 06:53:13 <andytoshi> ZenBalance: yes, very low level
 444 2013-02-20 06:53:24 <andytoshi> but the crypto stuff is wrapped up in the OpenSSL library for you
 445 2013-02-20 06:53:44 <andytoshi> so you need to understand it on a high level, but only stuff you'd need to understand bitcoin anyway
 446 2013-02-20 06:53:51 <andytoshi> maybe, this gives you something to shoot for
 447 2013-02-20 06:55:24 <ZenBalance> okay. I'll look into it. How does one actually go about integrating probabilistic payments into the actual network (or testnetwork) though?
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 451 2013-02-20 06:57:42 <andytoshi> ZenBalance: you can coax bitcoind into doing it with raw transactions, i believe
 452 2013-02-20 06:58:09 <andytoshi> basically, on the server side you generate a transaction and look at its hash (it's easy to do this with bitcoind)
 453 2013-02-20 06:58:32 <andytoshi> on the client side, you have to create a transaction with a guessed hash as an input (not sure if bitcoind will do this for you)
 454 2013-02-20 06:59:53 <ZenBalance> so I have a bitcoind server running on both machines? Can those servers talk directly (prompted by command line calls) or do I build a specific software layer in-between that passes the messages?
 455 2013-02-20 07:00:20 <andytoshi> ZenBalance: they talk directly, using the bitcoin protocol
 456 2013-02-20 07:00:42 <andytoshi> you create transactions and broadcast them to the network using bitcoind as a p2p client
 457 2013-02-20 07:00:50 <andytoshi> for transactions, see: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions
 458 2013-02-20 07:00:52 <andytoshi> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
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 460 2013-02-20 07:05:51 <andytoshi> ZenBalance: what course is this project for?
 461 2013-02-20 07:08:13 <ZenBalance> a general CS engineering course
 462 2013-02-20 07:08:31 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 463 2013-02-20 07:08:40 <ZenBalance> I did policy research on bit coin for a CS ethics class last year and go really interested in the technical aspects
 464 2013-02-20 07:09:13 <ZenBalance> I am majoring in CS systems (but definitely still a novice) so I thought I would push myself for an open ended class project to build a "useful" web service
 465 2013-02-20 07:10:37 <andytoshi> cool, i think you'll be okay then..
 466 2013-02-20 07:10:52 <andytoshi> i had a similar idea for a graduate-level physics course i am taking
 467 2013-02-20 07:11:07 <andytoshi> and now i'm studying 8-10 hours every day for this one course
 468 2013-02-20 07:11:25 <andytoshi> so, it's possible to bite off more than you can chew
 469 2013-02-20 07:11:55 <ZenBalance> lol, I am feeling that already, but am trying to keep it open ended so I have backup
 470 2013-02-20 07:12:01 <andytoshi> (not "similar" in that my project has anything to do with bitcoin, just similar in that i went way outside of the course to explore something i had no idea about)
 471 2013-02-20 07:12:38 <ZenBalance> hmm… you're physics, huh? Makes sense, some of the best CS guys I know come from strong physics backgrounds. Legit stuff
 472 2013-02-20 07:12:51 <andytoshi> ZenBalance: well, even talking about bitcoin or translating the satoshi paper into more accessible/precise language would be a good project
 473 2013-02-20 07:13:23 <ZenBalance> Never thought about that. Couldn't do it for this class, but would be a good project for a humanities req.
 474 2013-02-20 07:13:36 <ZenBalance> I was also thinking of building off the coin base API to do something...
 475 2013-02-20 07:13:45 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"])
 476 2013-02-20 07:14:47 <andytoshi> i'm very unfamiliar with what coinbase is or what its API does :P
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 480 2013-02-20 07:26:23 <ZenBalance> It basically lets you easily spin up wallets and take money in and out
 481 2013-02-20 07:26:29 <ZenBalance> (sorry for the delay in response)
 482 2013-02-20 07:26:36 <ZenBalance> they take a 1% cut
 483 2013-02-20 07:26:47 <ZenBalance> which is pretty significant for the number of transactions they are doing
 484 2013-02-20 07:26:58 <ZenBalance> building ontop of coin base, kind of defeats the purpose.
 485 2013-02-20 07:27:07 <ZenBalance> also http://coinapult.com is pretty cool
 486 2013-02-20 07:27:21 <ZenBalance> I thought it would be fun to build a replica of that, but the security limits might be too high
 487 2013-02-20 07:28:13 <randy-waterhouse> ok, really happy with 0.8 ... gonna go back to running a full node again.
 488 2013-02-20 07:28:23 <randy-waterhouse> good work guys, thanks
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 492 2013-02-20 07:36:29 <ZenBalance> andytoshi, signing off for now, but thanks for the tips!
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 569 2013-02-20 10:53:55 <_dr> is there any comprehensive forum post of the state of secp256k1 optimization?
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 572 2013-02-20 10:55:34 <sipa> _dr: hal finney made some posts about it
 573 2013-02-20 10:56:11 <sipa> _dr: one optimization he suggested/implemented is ready as pull request (#2061) for the reference client
 574 2013-02-20 10:56:27 <_dr> i've read various posts from him. but all i can find are algorithmic optimizations
 575 2013-02-20 10:56:41 <_dr> i was wondering if it was worth the trouble to replace the whole openssl stuff with some assembly code
 576 2013-02-20 10:56:50 <sipa> perhaps it is
 577 2013-02-20 10:57:09 <sipa> but openssl already uses quite advanced algorithms, and assembly-optimized lowlevel routines
 578 2013-02-20 10:57:24 <_dr> all the more incentive to try to beat them :)
 579 2013-02-20 10:57:52 <sipa> i've recently been trying to beat openssl, actually
 580 2013-02-20 10:57:57 <sipa> but so far, no luck :)
 581 2013-02-20 10:58:56 <_dr> well, as far as i can see from the posts openssl doesn't seem to do batch verification
 582 2013-02-20 10:59:15 <sipa> batch verification is very hard in our setting, actually
 583 2013-02-20 10:59:26 <_dr> why is that?
 584 2013-02-20 10:59:44 <sipa> first it requires the full R point to be known, not just its x coordinate, so you'd need to calculate y from that first, and this can't be batched
 585 2013-02-20 11:00:11 <sipa> secondly, you'd need some pretty smart script evaluation to deal with it
 586 2013-02-20 11:00:45 <sipa> as some nasty person could write a script that tries an ecdsa verification, and requires it to fail for his script to succeed
 587 2013-02-20 11:03:26 <sipa> but if you can do it (perhaps just for standard scripts, and do others separately), it may be worthwhile
 588 2013-02-20 11:03:28 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
 589 2013-02-20 11:03:47 <sipa> the reconstruction of Y doesn't seem too expensive to me
 590 2013-02-20 11:04:21 <_dr> i'll try intel's crypto library first, it will set a good lower bar for what you can possibly achieve
 591 2013-02-20 11:04:32 <_dr> i think i read they have support for bitcoin's curve in their lib
 592 2013-02-20 11:06:15 <sipa> specific speedups can come from: the fact that our field modulus is 2^256-p with p only 33 bits, the fact that the curve a parameter is 0, and the split-ec-mult in 2 trick that hal suggested
 593 2013-02-20 11:06:52 <_dr> i was hoping that vectorization and crypto instructions might be of use
 594 2013-02-20 11:07:14 <_dr> haswell's AVX2 will finally introduce 8-way simd for integers, and i don't know what aes-ni etc. really offer
 595 2013-02-20 11:07:14 <sipa> hmm, i know too little about those
 596 2013-02-20 11:07:47 <sipa> for doing multiple sigchecks in parallel you may gain something through simd i guess
 597 2013-02-20 11:24:02 <sipa> but high-speed implementations depend on being able to do a 64bit * 64bit multiplication (with 128 bit result) in hardware
 598 2013-02-20 11:24:17 <sipa> i doubt there are simd versions of those available?
 599 2013-02-20 11:24:35 <sipa> (specifically x86_64 arch)
 600 2013-02-20 11:26:34 <_dr> yes there are
 601 2013-02-20 11:26:50 <_dr> even sse has them i think, let me check
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 607 2013-02-20 11:31:51 <_dr> unfortunately not vectorized ones. you can only do two 32bit * 32bit and store the two 64bit results
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 612 2013-02-20 11:33:10 <sipa> iirc on the same hardware, openssl versions of ecdsa with assembly implementation, the 32-bit based versions are about 2 times slower than the 64-bit ones
 613 2013-02-20 11:33:33 <sipa> so being able to do 2 in parallel wouldn't gain you anything
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 615 2013-02-20 11:34:58 <_dr> if you can somehow emulate a 64bit mult using two 32bit mults (which you probably can) that makes sense
 616 2013-02-20 11:35:20 <_dr> in avx2, you should be able to do four in parallel, but maybe there's something hidden in avx-ni; i'll check
 617 2013-02-20 11:35:37 <_dr> aes-ni
 618 2013-02-20 11:39:46 <_dr> hm, they don't preserve the 128bit result. too bad, the 64bit*64bit = 128bit seems to be some special case here
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 625 2013-02-20 12:23:19 <fimp> if I replace my wallet with another wallet in 0.8, will the client then have to do all the block indexing again?
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 631 2013-02-20 12:43:49 <sipa> fimp: no
 632 2013-02-20 12:43:55 <sipa> wallets and blockchains are independent
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 646 2013-02-20 13:07:43 <HM2> bah
 647 2013-02-20 13:07:59 <HM2> woke up to a 600 MB resident X running at 100% cpu
 648 2013-02-20 13:07:59 <HM2> dead wifi which wouldn't reconnect
 649 2013-02-20 13:08:15 <HM2> something is really fucked
 650 2013-02-20 13:08:53 <SomeoneWeird> 0.o
 651 2013-02-20 13:08:57 <SomeoneWeird> that aint good
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 677 2013-02-20 14:27:45 <shwooop> hola, I remember having a link to a guide of the satoshi client source.  think it was a blog post.  can someone help me out?
 678 2013-02-20 14:28:29 <shwooop> s/blog/forum
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 686 2013-02-20 14:49:13 <MC1984> hey
 687 2013-02-20 14:49:25 <MC1984> is the bitcoin dev mailing list open to all
 688 2013-02-20 14:49:36 <sipa> yes
 689 2013-02-20 14:50:30 <MC1984> how do i subscribe? I promise i will never myself reply, and only observe
 690 2013-02-20 14:51:17 ciphermonk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 691 2013-02-20 14:52:05 <tcatm> MC1984: List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development> <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe>
 692 2013-02-20 14:53:22 <MC1984> thanks
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 704 2013-02-20 15:10:56 <HM2> i've come to the conclusion the only reason i use Geany as my primary text editor is it has a teapot as a logo
 705 2013-02-20 15:11:32 <HM2> then i realised it was an Aladdinesque oil lamp
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 714 2013-02-20 15:20:57 <helo> 272MB up to 302MB in 21 hours
 715 2013-02-20 15:21:24 <helo> just to present a data point
 716 2013-02-20 15:24:47 <epscy> helo: what do those numbers relate to?
 717 2013-02-20 15:24:47 <HM2> memory?
 718 2013-02-20 15:25:00 <helo> yes
 719 2013-02-20 15:25:12 <epscy> are you limiting the connections at all?
 720 2013-02-20 15:25:21 <helo> no upnp at router, so 8
 721 2013-02-20 15:25:32 <epscy> i found that helped a lot when my bitcoind kept running out of memory
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 733 2013-02-20 15:43:43 <jgarzik> repost, updated bitcoin blockchain torrent (bootstrap.dat): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117982.msg1541859#msg1541859
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 746 2013-02-20 16:16:05 <jgarzik> [ANN] Bitcoin blockchain data torrent - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0
 747 2013-02-20 16:16:37 <jgarzik> Forum post criticism ("you should mention this" or "you should answer this question" or "there is a typo") welcome
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 752 2013-02-20 16:22:40 <TD> i wonder how hard it'd be to integrate a bittorrent client into bitcoin-qt
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 755 2013-02-20 16:24:56 <sipa> TD: from a unix philosophy, i'd rather add an "import blocks from spawned process stdout" function, and have some shell scripts to integrate with common bittorrent clients
 756 2013-02-20 16:25:08 <sipa> for windows, things are probably a bit different
 757 2013-02-20 16:25:24 <TD> the unix philosophy is to not have a gui anyway ;)
 758 2013-02-20 16:33:45 <sipa> problem with bittorrent is the non-sequential download order
 759 2013-02-20 16:34:01 <sipa> so it's two non-overlapping stages (download, process) anyway
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 765 2013-02-20 16:38:40 <jgarzik> sipa: while not disagreeing with you, I note that some torrent clients try hard for downloading from-the-front, to provide a video streaming-like experience where the torrent swarm permits
 766 2013-02-20 16:39:08 <jgarzik> probably not fast enough at present for block validation purposes, but who knows
 767 2013-02-20 16:41:04 <sipa> [17:22:36] Problem connecting to tracker - <urlopen error unknown url type: udp>
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 769 2013-02-20 16:42:08 <jgarzik> sipa: did the torrent client shutdown the torrent, or just complain about the tracker?  hopefully it falls back to DHT
 770 2013-02-20 16:42:17 <jgarzik> sipa: if rtorrent, you might have to manually turn on DHT
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 772 2013-02-20 16:45:16 <sipa> Progress: 75.9%, dl from 14 of 15 peers (19.46 MB/s), ul to 0 (0 kB/s) [0.00]
 773 2013-02-20 16:45:32 <sipa> some nice seeders you have :)
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 780 2013-02-20 16:57:49 <helo> what's the hash of that boostrap.dat?
 781 2013-02-20 16:59:11 <sipa> bf658c7055b733bfc15ea167f298c5599b89d220b14dbe7c8ef20b18e468c451
 782 2013-02-20 16:59:12 gfinn has joined
 783 2013-02-20 16:59:12 <sipa> sha256
 784 2013-02-20 16:59:34 <helo> ty
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 790 2013-02-20 17:10:39 <MC1984> jgarzik frontloading torrents is frownd upon in the spec
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 792 2013-02-20 17:10:48 <MC1984> but with enough seeders its certainly possible
 793 2013-02-20 17:11:11 <MC1984> even the official bittorrent has a "stream" option which starts prioritising from peice 1
 794 2013-02-20 17:13:04 <MC1984> i suppose you probably aredy knw that
 795 2013-02-20 17:13:23 <MC1984> thres a pretty mature libtorrent thing if youre looking to go down that road
 796 2013-02-20 17:13:29 <MC1984> i suppose you knew that too
 797 2013-02-20 17:13:46 <TD> sipa: what were the old directories pre-rename that i can delete?
 798 2013-02-20 17:13:47 <TD> blktree?
 799 2013-02-20 17:13:52 <TD> coins?
 800 2013-02-20 17:14:07 <gavinandresen> sipa:  you're mr. release-number-person… now that 0.8.0 is out, remind me what the version number should be bumped to? 0.8.0.99 ?
 801 2013-02-20 17:14:36 <gavinandresen> TD: contrib/tidy_datadir.sh
 802 2013-02-20 17:15:21 <sipa> gavinandresen: yeah, assuming the next version is supposed to be 0.8.1
 803 2013-02-20 17:15:24 <BlueMatt> tcatm: pong
 804 2013-02-20 17:15:26 <gavinandresen> sipa: … or should we not bother any more, now we have the spiffy auto-release-number-git-thingy
 805 2013-02-20 17:15:27 <TD> thanks
 806 2013-02-20 17:15:27 <BlueMatt> tcatm: whats up?
 807 2013-02-20 17:15:56 <tcatm> BlueMatt: gavin suggested moving the vm that renders bitcoin.org from my server to the dev teams server
 808 2013-02-20 17:16:05 <Goonie> BlueMatt: Do you plan to update the ubuntu ppa with bitcoin 0.8.0?
 809 2013-02-20 17:16:08 <sipa> gavinandresen: the git-release version isn't used in the alert mechanism, afaik
 810 2013-02-20 17:16:15 <denisx> what happens on osx with 0.8, will it be auto cleaned up?
 811 2013-02-20 17:16:49 <sipa> gavinandresen: actually, i'm a bit fuzzy about that
 812 2013-02-20 17:17:22 <BlueMatt> tcatm: sure, I can get you a vm for that
 813 2013-02-20 17:17:40 <BlueMatt> Goonie: yes, either later today or sometime this week[end]
 814 2013-02-20 17:17:43 <tcatm> BlueMatt: I'd prefer moving the existing vm if possible. Does the server run libvirtd?
 815 2013-02-20 17:17:50 <gavinandresen> sipa: me too… reworking the alert system a bit was on my 'it would be nice' list, but never made it to my TODO list
 816 2013-02-20 17:18:24 <BlueMatt> tcatm: its proxmox, so...no
 817 2013-02-20 17:18:29 <gavinandresen> denisx: no, no auto-cleaning of the data directory on any platform, in case people want/need to run older releases
 818 2013-02-20 17:19:07 <BlueMatt> tcatm: still, its kvm, so a hdd image should still work reasonably
 819 2013-02-20 17:19:24 <gavinandresen> sipa: people running git HEAD getting spurious alerts isn't a big enough issue to worry about, anyway, though
 820 2013-02-20 17:19:26 <Goonie> BlueMatt: great. Thanks by the way for the ppa, it helped me a lot in my first years with bitcoin (before I learned how to build C code from source ;-)
 821 2013-02-20 17:19:43 <BlueMatt> Goonie: sorry, Ive got exams and such this week, so it may be until weekend (unless I feel like procrastinating, which is fairly likely)
 822 2013-02-20 17:20:29 asuk has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
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 825 2013-02-20 17:23:23 <gavinandresen> RE: naming discussion from a few hours ago:  I do rather like "Almighty Seabird" as a name.
 826 2013-02-20 17:24:12 <sipa> casmfetcsgiaomssuvpn!
 827 2013-02-20 17:25:42 <tcatm> BlueMatt: So how can we transfer the image?
 828 2013-02-20 17:26:02 <BlueMatt> tcatm: ummm...scp?
 829 2013-02-20 17:26:12 <tcatm> That would work
 830 2013-02-20 17:29:14 ciphermonk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 831 2013-02-20 17:36:01 <sipa> gavinandresen: do you intend to start pulling for 0.8.1 right away, or do we wait a bit to see if a bugfix release for 0.8.0 is necessary?
 832 2013-02-20 17:36:38 <gavinandresen> sipa: I think we should pull right away.  if we need to, we can create a 0.8.1 branch from the 0.8.0 tag
 833 2013-02-20 17:36:50 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 834 2013-02-20 17:37:19 <Goonie> by the way, what are the expected next "big things" to land in 0.9.x?
 835 2013-02-20 17:39:15 <sipa> i hope i (or someone) can get BIP32 integrated
 836 2013-02-20 17:39:43 <gavinandresen> Lets see… decrease the max 21 million coin limit to 11 million because 11 is my favorite number….  umm, support Tonal amounts, but only on leap-days….
 837 2013-02-20 17:40:46 <sipa> i think there are a few wallet-related changes that make sense to try to combine (though unsure whether they'll be ready): multiwallet support, BIP32, non-BDB wallet files, wallet dependency tracking
 838 2013-02-20 17:41:22 <gavinandresen> Goonie: My wish list for 0.9 would be:  payment protocol support, wallet rewrite (eliminate berkeley db depenency), and maybe auto-encrypted-backup-via-email (or some other good wallet backup solution).
 839 2013-02-20 17:41:31 <MC1984> >Support tonal
 840 2013-02-20 17:41:35 <MC1984> dont even joke about that
 841 2013-02-20 17:41:36 <denisx> any plans to make a bitcoin lib so someone can write native gui clients?
 842 2013-02-20 17:41:59 <BlueMatt> denisx: bitcoinj
 843 2013-02-20 17:41:59 <Goonie> sipa: Do you think it would make sense to share a common wallet format between all (or most) clients?
 844 2013-02-20 17:42:04 <gavinandresen> denisx: yeah, bitcoinj.
 845 2013-02-20 17:42:09 <sipa> Goonie: unsure
 846 2013-02-20 17:42:12 <MC1984> denisx theres something called libbitcoin
 847 2013-02-20 17:42:18 <Goonie> Like bitcoinj-based clients use protobuf right now
 848 2013-02-20 17:42:22 <sipa> Goonie: it seems to me that not all clients will agree about what a wallet exactly is
 849 2013-02-20 17:42:25 <BlueMatt> and I think libcoin?
 850 2013-02-20 17:42:32 <BlueMatt> (is different between libbitcoin)
 851 2013-02-20 17:42:33 <MC1984> gwnjix wrote it but he disappeared and i dont know if tis maintained
 852 2013-02-20 17:42:44 <gavinandresen> denisx: or maybe picocoin, when Jeff's baby starts sleeping through the night.
 853 2013-02-20 17:42:50 <sipa> Goonie: i'm more a proponent of a common wallet interchange format that can be imported/exported from
 854 2013-02-20 17:43:31 <Goonie> sipa: Interchange for more than the private keys (incl. creation time)?
 855 2013-02-20 17:43:39 <sipa> yeah
 856 2013-02-20 17:43:52 <gavinandresen> several people are working on The Ultimate Industrial Strenght Bitcoin Library.  A couple of them will probably turn out to be good.
 857 2013-02-20 17:44:13 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: s/several/many/
 858 2013-02-20 17:44:39 <gavinandresen> I only know of…. what, six?  seven?
 859 2013-02-20 17:44:56 <sipa> Goonie: personally, i don't think it's viable (for the reference client) to switch to a completely new wallet format at this point, unless we're doing a more-or-less completely rewrite of the wallet module
 860 2013-02-20 17:44:57 <BlueMatt> I thought several was 5?
 861 2013-02-20 17:45:25 <sipa> Goonie: so my idea is change BDB for a custom append-only format, but (mostly) retain what key/value data is stored in it
 862 2013-02-20 17:45:45 <gavinandresen> "Being of a number more than two or three but not many"  < that's not very helpful
 863 2013-02-20 17:46:28 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: in any case, I think there are more than 6/7
 864 2013-02-20 17:46:36 <BlueMatt> but I dont know...
 865 2013-02-20 17:47:00 <BlueMatt> libbitcoin, libcoin, bitcoinj, bitcoin-ruby, jgarzik has what 2 now?, and Im sure Im missing 20 or so
 866 2013-02-20 17:47:05 <BlueMatt> bitcoinjs
 867 2013-02-20 17:47:13 <sipa> don't forget cbitcoin 1.0 and cbitcoin 2.0!
 868 2013-02-20 17:47:15 <jgarzik> libccoin and pynode
 869 2013-02-20 17:47:21 <jgarzik> from me
 870 2013-02-20 17:47:53 <sipa> jgarzik: you're slacking
 871 2013-02-20 17:47:55 <jgarzik> the catch is they all vary in levels of compliance/completion/features (meaning all projects, not just mine)
 872 2013-02-20 17:48:03 <jgarzik> sipa: hehe
 873 2013-02-20 17:48:06 <gmaxwell> 08:55 < MC1984> thres a pretty mature libtorrent thing if youre looking to go down that road < which more or less can't download these trackerless torrents. (it's the same library rtorrent uses)
 874 2013-02-20 17:48:16 <HM2> I'm waiting for a Lisp implementation
 875 2013-02-20 17:48:24 <sipa> oh, purecoin!
 876 2013-02-20 17:48:26 <sipa> (haskell)
 877 2013-02-20 17:48:29 <HM2> and brainfuckcoin
 878 2013-02-20 17:48:41 <BlueMatt> HM2: wait...really?
 879 2013-02-20 17:48:43 <MC1984> gmaxwell im using a libtorrent client that handles dht just fine
 880 2013-02-20 17:49:03 <MC1984> i thik rtorrent is just odd
 881 2013-02-20 17:49:54 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it can handle it, but it doesn't bootstrap apparently.
 882 2013-02-20 17:50:52 <MC1984> strange i had heard libtorrent was more spec conformant than the official client
 883 2013-02-20 17:51:06 <MC1984> there are trackers encoded in the magnet uri anyway
 884 2013-02-20 17:51:47 <MC1984> wait nevermind, taling about something irrelevant
 885 2013-02-20 17:52:45 <MC1984> jgarzik how does this new bootstrap only weigh in at 4.5gb
 886 2013-02-20 17:53:33 <sipa> it's "only" until block 216116
 887 2013-02-20 17:53:51 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: is libccoin/picocoin full verification or just spv?
 888 2013-02-20 17:54:06 toffoo has joined
 889 2013-02-20 17:55:03 <MC1984> so 4.5 ish GB is the size of hte actual chain? My bitcoin directory is 6.3
 890 2013-02-20 17:55:36 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: libccoin (the library) can be either full verification or SPV.  picocoin (the client) is SPV.  brd (block relay daemon, another client inside picocoin.git) is full verification.
 891 2013-02-20 17:55:51 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ahh, ok nice
 892 2013-02-20 17:55:54 <jgarzik> MC1984: what sipa said :)
 893 2013-02-20 17:56:43 <sipa> MC1984: actual chain is 5.5GiB or 5.9GB
 894 2013-02-20 17:57:13 <MC1984> !bc,blocks
 895 2013-02-20 17:57:14 <gribble> 222209
 896 2013-02-20 17:57:38 <sipa> wait, so the last 6000 blocks (=1.5 month) are 1 GB?
 897 2013-02-20 17:57:41 <MC1984> 6000 blocks is 1gb now? damn
 898 2013-02-20 17:58:23 word has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 899 2013-02-20 17:58:47 word has joined
 900 2013-02-20 17:59:46 <denisx> can I resume the "Reindexing blocks on disk..."?
 901 2013-02-20 17:59:49 <denisx> I need to go
 902 2013-02-20 18:00:01 ThomasV_ has joined
 903 2013-02-20 18:00:21 <sipa> denisx: it resumes automatically
 904 2013-02-20 18:00:30 <denisx> ok
 905 2013-02-20 18:00:40 alexwaters2 has joined
 906 2013-02-20 18:00:42 <sipa> if you specify -reindex again, it will start over
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 908 2013-02-20 18:01:09 <denisx> sipa: its the osx gui version
 909 2013-02-20 18:01:38 <denisx> I put it to sleep and see what happens
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 916 2013-02-20 18:14:30 <jgarzik> sipa: anyone to your knowledge thought about how a UTXO-but-not-archive node might look and behave?
 917 2013-02-20 18:14:51 <jgarzik> sipa: picocoin's brd (block relay daemon, a simple validating node) might have that mode
 918 2013-02-20 18:14:59 <jgarzik> in particular, might want a NODE_UTXO bit
 919 2013-02-20 18:15:12 <sipa> no, service bits are ORed together
 920 2013-02-20 18:15:23 <sipa> so you can't have a service bit with negative meaning
 921 2013-02-20 18:15:42 <jgarzik> it's not a negative meaning.  the node would set NODE_UTXO but not NODE_NETWORK
 922 2013-02-20 18:15:44 <sipa> and NODE_NETWORK already implies validation (=UTXO) + archive
 923 2013-02-20 18:15:51 <sipa> ah
 924 2013-02-20 18:16:02 <jgarzik> because it does not serve blocks, but DOES validate blocks/txs against UTXO set
 925 2013-02-20 18:16:42 s4m20 has joined
 926 2013-02-20 18:16:47 <gmaxwell> There is a trival dos attack on any effort to distinguish archive nodes by flags if archive nodes become uncommon relative to the population.
 927 2013-02-20 18:18:33 <gmaxwell> (just readvertise all the NODE_UTXO peers with NODE_NETWORK set)
 928 2013-02-20 18:19:21 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: another point there is that a NODE_UTXO will be able to serve the most recent blocks... but just a flag doesn't tell us how recent it can serve.
 929 2013-02-20 18:19:23 dario1 has joined
 930 2013-02-20 18:19:35 <slush1> Hi, are in 0.8.0 any changes important for miners? I mean - changes in GBT API, potential known issues or so?
 931 2013-02-20 18:19:43 * helo quickly avoids allowing archive nodes to become relatively uncommon
 932 2013-02-20 18:19:50 s4m20 has quit (Client Quit)
 933 2013-02-20 18:21:53 <jdnavarro> is testnet3 still the default testnet for 0.8.0?
 934 2013-02-20 18:21:58 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 935 2013-02-20 18:23:26 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"])
 936 2013-02-20 18:25:32 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 937 2013-02-20 18:27:37 s4m20 has joined
 938 2013-02-20 18:27:43 <s4m20> clear
 939 2013-02-20 18:28:50 Mad7Scientist is now known as pirateat41
 940 2013-02-20 18:29:03 alexwaters has joined
 941 2013-02-20 18:29:15 <slush1> gmaxwell: can be 0.8.0 used for mining? sipa told me few weeks ago that I should not use it on the pool, but I don't remember the reason.
 942 2013-02-20 18:30:13 JZavala has joined
 943 2013-02-20 18:30:26 <s4m20> really impressed with the speed of sync on 0.8.0 :)
 944 2013-02-20 18:31:05 <gmaxwell> slush1: It can be, we had been discouraging it for stuff due to fork risks.
 945 2013-02-20 18:31:37 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: er, why?
 946 2013-02-20 18:31:58 alexwaters2 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 947 2013-02-20 18:32:29 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: !full, utxo will be normal in the future
 948 2013-02-20 18:32:45 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: time to start thinking about it
 949 2013-02-20 18:34:15 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'm not discouraging thinking about it. I'm saying harder thought is needed.
 950 2013-02-20 18:34:23 <gavinandresen> seems like a new version of the version message that says "I can serve you full blocks from N to M" might be a good approach
 951 2013-02-20 18:34:35 <gavinandresen> (NODE_NETWORK would be shorthand for N == 0)
 952 2013-02-20 18:34:37 <gmaxwell> I've been thinking about it, which is why I already knew that I could trivially shut down the network if implemented as described.
 953 2013-02-20 18:34:49 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 954 2013-02-20 18:35:35 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I'd think we'd want to go somewhat futher and allow nodes to give two ranges. Their current range, plus some additional range, so we could have distributed copies of the chain.
 955 2013-02-20 18:35:46 alexwaters2 has joined
 956 2013-02-20 18:36:13 <petertodd> gmaxwell: sounds like what we need is a DHT. (ducks)
 957 2013-02-20 18:36:16 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: ? can you give a concrete example ?
 958 2013-02-20 18:36:32 vampireb has joined
 959 2013-02-20 18:36:46 <jgarzik> utxo should imply getheaders
 960 2013-02-20 18:37:00 <jgarzik> NODE_UTXO, that is
 961 2013-02-20 18:37:05 richardus has left ()
 962 2013-02-20 18:37:08 <MobGod> gavinandresen when you do the update to 0.8 from the beta you just need to replace the files right not remove
 963 2013-02-20 18:37:10 <MobGod> correct
 964 2013-02-20 18:39:08 <helo> 0.8 is beta
 965 2013-02-20 18:39:09 alexwaters has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 966 2013-02-20 18:39:13 <helo> what are you upgrading from?
 967 2013-02-20 18:39:24 <MobGod> 0.7.2
 968 2013-02-20 18:39:27 <jgarzik> I think depth is the right word
 969 2013-02-20 18:40:01 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: e.g. the address message has 2016;(111111-121111) indicating that the node serves the topmost 2016 blocks and 111111-121111. Though we probably want to bake 'serves the top most N' into the flag.
 970 2013-02-20 18:40:05 <jgarzik> 'version' could supply a depth, where zero implies "can serve full chain" and non-zero is the number of blocks below top-of-chain they will serve
 971 2013-02-20 18:40:10 alexwaters has joined
 972 2013-02-20 18:40:13 <jgarzik> don't hardcode range
 973 2013-02-20 18:40:43 <helo> MobGod: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145184.0 "How to Upgrade"
 974 2013-02-20 18:40:56 <gmaxwell> It's important that we support a range otherwise we cannot have any useful distributed copies. Everything is fully dependant on there being single nodes with all of it.
 975 2013-02-20 18:41:30 <gmaxwell> And even if someone wants to provide more storage, they can't usefully unless they want to provide enough for a full archive.
 976 2013-02-20 18:42:01 vv01f has joined
 977 2013-02-20 18:42:07 <gmaxwell> In any case, all this is moot unless we can figure out a way to solve the trivial dos attack (where I just announce new ranges and claim every non-archive node is an archive node)
 978 2013-02-20 18:42:10 <MobGod> so i want to have both files not replace am i reading that right
 979 2013-02-20 18:42:14 denisx has joined
 980 2013-02-20 18:42:15 <petertodd> I suspect we're going to need changes to peering, so split the peer list into "has UTXO" and "full node"
 981 2013-02-20 18:42:42 alexwaters2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 982 2013-02-20 18:42:46 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Add a setting for "store x-GiB of the archival history to support the network"?
 983 2013-02-20 18:42:53 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: you can do that now...
 984 2013-02-20 18:43:01 <BlueMatt> (with simple spv nodes)
 985 2013-02-20 18:43:07 gruvfunk has joined
 986 2013-02-20 18:43:09 <denisx> how long should it take to reindex the last 5000 blocks with an SSD on a quad?
 987 2013-02-20 18:43:16 <denisx> estimated
 988 2013-02-20 18:43:21 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: sure, but they don't listen for the most part, and there aren't many of them.
 989 2013-02-20 18:43:23 <gruvfunk> join #litecoin
 990 2013-02-20 18:43:29 <gruvfunk> lol
 991 2013-02-20 18:44:01 <petertodd> gmaxwell: If a non-linear hashing algorithm was used for the chain, you could at least challenge nodes with random blocks, even if you were a UTXO-only node.
 992 2013-02-20 18:44:13 <denisx> I think the osx client still has problems
 993 2013-02-20 18:44:15 <petertodd> gmaxwell: IE skip-merkle-tree
 994 2013-02-20 18:44:23 <denisx> running at 800% and slow as hell
 995 2013-02-20 18:44:26 <gmaxwell> petertodd: serving distingious blocks is bad for performance.
 996 2013-02-20 18:44:45 <denisx> maybe now are 8 threads running at 100% ;)
 997 2013-02-20 18:45:03 <gmaxwell> denisx: signature validation is now multithreaded.
 998 2013-02-20 18:45:10 <denisx> gmaxwell: I know
 999 2013-02-20 18:45:19 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Sure, but we also can't just assume people will donate huge piles of bandwidth to run archival nodes without something bittorrent-like to spread out the load.
1000 2013-02-20 18:45:20 tonikt has joined
1001 2013-02-20 18:45:27 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well you can also announce every ipv4 address as a full node, which is semi-equivalent (though Im not sure how the addr stuff sipa did handles either case)
1002 2013-02-20 18:45:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: My node at home is averaging about 300KiB/second right now upload.
1003 2013-02-20 18:45:48 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: we handle that case, at least somewhat well.
1004 2013-02-20 18:46:00 <gjs278> I shut my node off because I don't know how to rate limit my upload and it gets too high
1005 2013-02-20 18:46:01 <gmaxwell> we do not handle the case where someone adds service bits to nodes well.
1006 2013-02-20 18:46:07 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: so can we not handle the case of crap flags being added somewhat well as well?
1007 2013-02-20 18:46:15 <vv01f> is it just coincidence that i feel the chain being loaded faster and having more connections when the client is connected to bittorrent ?
1008 2013-02-20 18:46:33 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: No.
1009 2013-02-20 18:46:40 <BlueMatt> hmm?
1010 2013-02-20 18:46:53 <BlueMatt> not blindly oring the flags unless we have some proof would be a start...
1011 2013-02-20 18:47:47 <gmaxwell> Right but what constitutes proof?  If you don't allow updates then someone can just flood out saying all the archive nodes are not archive nodes.
1012 2013-02-20 18:47:57 <jaakkos> uh... so ThreadSocketHandler2 really polls for network traffic?
1013 2013-02-20 18:48:56 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Good point... with P2Pool you can take your lowest found share like you suggested, then sign your message announcing you're an archival node. Don
1014 2013-02-20 18:48:59 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit
1015 2013-02-20 18:49:02 <Diablo-D3> I actually hate bitcoin
1016 2013-02-20 18:49:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I don't see the idea catching on though.
1017 2013-02-20 18:49:09 <Diablo-D3> why the fuck cant it bandwidth cap itself
1018 2013-02-20 18:49:21 <gmaxwell> petertodd: results in big addr messages.
1019 2013-02-20 18:49:32 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, fair enough...anyway, I have to go take a quiz
1020 2013-02-20 18:50:06 <MobGod> helo ?
1021 2013-02-20 18:50:17 <MobGod> do i keep both files or replace
1022 2013-02-20 18:50:28 <MobGod> doesn't say on the link you gave me
1023 2013-02-20 18:51:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, P2Pool coinbase tx's are multi KiB
1024 2013-02-20 18:51:13 <helo> MobGod: you just run the installer and run it, according to those instructions
1025 2013-02-20 18:51:20 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: am I right in assuming bitcoin cant cap itself?
1026 2013-02-20 18:51:33 * petertodd curses Satoshi for not doing merge-mining from the start
1027 2013-02-20 18:51:39 <MobGod> helo i need to copy it to my app folder i'm on a mac
1028 2013-02-20 18:51:51 <MobGod> but it's asking me if i want to keep both or replace
1029 2013-02-20 18:51:59 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: btw, do we currently overwrite the flags we got from peers with flags from version messages on connect?
1030 2013-02-20 18:52:11 <helo> MobGod: what are "both"? Bitcoin-QT and bitcoind?
1031 2013-02-20 18:53:56 <sipa> gmaxwell, gavinandresen: imho, it would make sense to advertize the range of blocks being served through the service bits (like last_144_blocks, last_2016_blocks, all_blocks, for example), so it can be used to choose a peer for syncing before connecting to them
1032 2013-02-20 18:54:03 <s4m20> probably a dumb question but will bitcoind run faster if I compile from source on my machine rather than running the packaged binary?
1033 2013-02-20 18:54:41 <gjs278> unless you compile it with stupid flags probably but not by much
1034 2013-02-20 18:54:42 <sipa> s4m20: maybe a tiny bit
1035 2013-02-20 18:54:55 <sipa> BlueMatt: flags get ORed together
1036 2013-02-20 18:54:58 <BlueMatt> s4m20: Id look at compiling openssl with march first...
1037 2013-02-20 18:55:02 <MobGod> helo i got it
1038 2013-02-20 18:55:03 <MobGod> thanks
1039 2013-02-20 18:55:06 <s4m20> cool, thanks
1040 2013-02-20 18:55:17 <BlueMatt> sipa: yes, when they get rumored, but when we get them from the ip in question...
1041 2013-02-20 18:55:27 <BlueMatt> (they shouldnt be in that case)
1042 2013-02-20 18:55:35 <sipa> BlueMatt: i don't think we overwrite, but indeed we should
1043 2013-02-20 18:59:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: sure, but we still need a way of communicating non-last blocks in order to get distributed copies of something beyond the last N. E.g. once you're serving the last 2016 blocks, and you still have 10GB space you want to use... what do you use it on? Going to last 4000 is nowhere near as useful as having nodes serve the least available hunks of historical ranges. (thus removing load from archive nodes)
1044 2013-02-20 19:00:39 <sipa> hmm, good point
1045 2013-02-20 19:02:08 <sipa> perhaps it even makes more sense to advertize "i *dont* have more than 2016 blocks", without guaranteeing that you do
1046 2013-02-20 19:03:30 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Make the setting pick part of the historial range at random so as to use exactly as much disk space as desired?
1047 2013-02-20 19:03:41 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Probably want to implement the bandwidth limit at the same time.
1048 2013-02-20 19:03:41 <gmaxwell> A new node would still need to find you to make use of you.. but in terms of the ORing risk, thats probably useful.
1049 2013-02-20 19:04:41 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1050 2013-02-20 19:04:46 <sipa> if we do bandwidth limiting, it should rather be done by deny some clients that want to sync. rather than serving them all slowly
1051 2013-02-20 19:04:53 <gmaxwell> petertodd: basically. Not at random— but it can consult the addr messages its seen to figure out what parts have least coverage and bias its decision. then save that range while validating it.
1052 2013-02-20 19:05:42 <petertodd> gmaxwell: See, I worry that by consulting the inv's you know about, an attacker could influence what the distribution is.
1053 2013-02-20 19:06:16 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Basically make everyone think a given range needs more coverage, so that other ranges miss out.
1054 2013-02-20 19:06:18 <gmaxwell> petertodd: sure. I'm actually not finding that too trobling.
1055 2013-02-20 19:06:45 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Every part of the range is required, which helps.
1056 2013-02-20 19:07:04 <petertodd> (until the UTXO tree is done and trustable of course)
1057 2013-02-20 19:07:25 <sipa> even with the UTXO tree, you only have SPV level security about history
1058 2013-02-20 19:07:39 alexwaters has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1059 2013-02-20 19:07:39 malaimo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1060 2013-02-20 19:07:41 <sipa> that cannot replace downloading and processing the historical chain
1061 2013-02-20 19:08:33 malaimo has joined
1062 2013-02-20 19:08:35 <petertodd> Well, checkpoints are defacto security; if anything they are the least likely way for the devs to steal your coins.
1063 2013-02-20 19:08:50 vv01f_ has joined
1064 2013-02-20 19:09:13 <sipa> i hope we can drop the checkpoints once we have headers-first sync
1065 2013-02-20 19:09:18 <petertodd> You can also work on the assumption that for any given best PoW ever found, there is a ~95% chance it's a valid Bitcoin block.
1066 2013-02-20 19:09:41 <gmaxwell> checkpoints are insanely damaging because they totally confuse people about how bitcoin security works.
1067 2013-02-20 19:10:17 <sipa> with headers-first, you can say have a policy like "don't do sigchecks when there are N blocks on top"
1068 2013-02-20 19:10:44 <petertodd> sipa: Dropping checkpoints fully is a DoS attack issue though; I can trivially re-mine the early history.
1069 2013-02-20 19:11:00 lidteri has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1070 2013-02-20 19:11:13 <gmaxwell> petertodd: in any case, by bias, I mean something like  block_preference(block)=rand([0,1))+block_density(block) and you use the min.
1071 2013-02-20 19:11:14 <gjs278> won't it only take one client to download 300k/s from me to ruin the limit I try and set?
1072 2013-02-20 19:11:25 <gmaxwell> petertodd: headers first sinc solves that completely.
1073 2013-02-20 19:11:25 vv01f has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1074 2013-02-20 19:11:34 <gjs278> I'd rather serve him slowly and just put my connection limit low as well so it doesnt go too slow
1075 2013-02-20 19:11:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Bitcoin security's security suffers from the ugly problem that you have to be convinced of the existence of the longest chain.
1076 2013-02-20 19:12:01 <sipa> gjs278:  but he doesn't want that
1077 2013-02-20 19:12:11 <gjs278> if he doesn't want 20k/s
1078 2013-02-20 19:12:14 <gjs278> he's about to get 0
1079 2013-02-20 19:12:28 <petertodd> gmaxwell: No, I can still feed you (now - 2009-01-04)/10minutes * 96bytes worth of garbage.
1080 2013-02-20 19:12:32 <gmaxwell> petertodd: so even if some attacker can totally fake out your block_density() ... no biggie.
1081 2013-02-20 19:12:34 <sipa> gjs278: if you're not willing to allow him to sync quickly, you're better off not letting him sync at all
1082 2013-02-20 19:12:42 <slush1> gmaxwell: thanks for answer
1083 2013-02-20 19:12:45 <gjs278> dont they sync to multiple people at once?
1084 2013-02-20 19:12:47 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Unless you put in *difficulty* checkpoints.
1085 2013-02-20 19:12:50 <gjs278> or is it one connection for a sync
1086 2013-02-20 19:13:07 <petertodd> brb
1087 2013-02-20 19:13:13 <sipa> gjs278: no
1088 2013-02-20 19:13:26 <sipa> without headers-first sync, that's not really possible
1089 2013-02-20 19:13:42 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you pull from the peer that offers the highest current difficulty. If there are any competing chains, you then sample their headers until you know they can't beat the difficulty you have.
1090 2013-02-20 19:13:56 rdponticelli has joined
1091 2013-02-20 19:14:01 <gmaxwell> (or until you know they can, and then you pull them completely)
1092 2013-02-20 19:14:36 malaimo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1093 2013-02-20 19:14:58 malaimo has joined
1094 2013-02-20 19:15:04 <gmaxwell> petertodd: only somewhat related, I also expect the minimum difficulty to be greatly advanced in the future.
1095 2013-02-20 19:19:49 <slush1> I'm having issues during downloading blockchain (using 0.8.0).
1096 2013-02-20 19:20:01 <sipa> slush1: such as?
1097 2013-02-20 19:20:01 <slush1> It freezes sometimes, I have to shut down the node and start again
1098 2013-02-20 19:20:12 <slush1> it works, but simply stop syncing
1099 2013-02-20 19:20:19 <sipa> known issue, unfortunately
1100 2013-02-20 19:20:30 <sipa> it'll always restart when a new block is announced, though
1101 2013-02-20 19:20:42 <slush1> is that only during initial bootstrap or is this expected during normal operation?
1102 2013-02-20 19:20:56 <sipa> only during IBD
1103 2013-02-20 19:21:07 <sipa> as normal operation is always driven by newly announced blocks
1104 2013-02-20 19:21:17 <slush1> ok, that seems acceptable
1105 2013-02-20 19:21:22 <sipa> it's basically the sync code can get confused from time to time
1106 2013-02-20 19:21:38 <slush1> will it be fixed in next release?
1107 2013-02-20 19:22:25 <sipa> dunno, the sync code needs a revamp, but doing headers-first is ultimately necessary anyway
1108 2013-02-20 19:22:32 <sipa> it's an issue that has existed forever
1109 2013-02-20 19:23:12 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: answering a question of yours from a day ago: <BitcoinBug> I was seeding the previous version (2.3 GB, share ratio 15) and when I added this one, it picked up and verified the existing version and continued downloading from 51%. Very cool!
1110 2013-02-20 19:23:16 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1111 2013-02-20 19:23:56 <slush1> sipa: ok, thanks
1112 2013-02-20 19:24:46 <Diablo-D3> so _no one_ thinks its a bug that bitcoin cant cap its upstream bandwidth?
1113 2013-02-20 19:25:20 <sipa> Diablo-D3: i think it should have an option for disabling serving the chain
1114 2013-02-20 19:25:32 <sipa> Diablo-D3: if you don't want to serve, it shouldn't force you to
1115 2013-02-20 19:25:41 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yeah, I think that'd work
1116 2013-02-20 19:25:48 <Diablo-D3> sipa: repeating tx and blocks arent soaking up my bandwidth
1117 2013-02-20 19:26:15 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I only have 768kbit upstream
1118 2013-02-20 19:26:37 <Diablo-D3> and there just isnt a useful way of handling apps that spam connections
1119 2013-02-20 19:26:51 <Diablo-D3> linux qos just cant do it no matter what you do
1120 2013-02-20 19:27:03 <Diablo-D3> it SHOULD do the same thing torrent clients do now
1121 2013-02-20 19:27:16 <Diablo-D3> measure latency to other peers and throttle back when latency spikes
1122 2013-02-20 19:27:25 <vv01f_> diablo-d3: there is, drop conn
1123 2013-02-20 19:27:35 <Diablo-D3> vv01f_: =|
1124 2013-02-20 19:28:06 <vv01f_> thats what bittorrent does essentially
1125 2013-02-20 19:29:16 <jgarzik> limiting upstream bandwidth is a "nice to have"
1126 2013-02-20 19:29:41 <jgarzik> I would ACK a properly implemented pull req, because it does help encourage some users serve, who could/would not otherwise be a full node.
1127 2013-02-20 19:29:47 <jgarzik> *to serve
1128 2013-02-20 19:29:52 <sipa> jgarzik: i doubt that
1129 2013-02-20 19:30:08 <sipa> and we don't suffer from lack of full nodes
1130 2013-02-20 19:30:13 whizter has joined
1131 2013-02-20 19:30:19 <petertodd> gmaxwell: fair enough, basically work backwards from the advertised header with the best PoW and a reasonable timestamp
1132 2013-02-20 19:30:30 <sipa> so i'd rather remove those that'd serve slowly, than offer them to remain full nodes
1133 2013-02-20 19:30:36 <Scrat> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html
1134 2013-02-20 19:30:38 <sipa> s/full/archive-serving/
1135 2013-02-20 19:30:45 <Scrat> what are these people on 0.3 doing?
1136 2013-02-20 19:31:14 <petertodd> gmaxwell: the timestamp being what doesn't allow you to just create one really high pow for fraud purposes
1137 2013-02-20 19:32:02 <petertodd> gmaxwell: which also means that, say, distributing a recentish "best known block" via dns or some other totally different mechanism is reasonable; any source of high pow helps
1138 2013-02-20 19:32:46 <jgarzik> petertodd: we talked weeks ago about distributing via satellite :
1139 2013-02-20 19:32:47 <jgarzik> :)
1140 2013-02-20 19:33:18 <jgarzik> if bitcoin gets valuable enough, tuning into the "bitcoin block channel" might be valuable
1141 2013-02-20 19:33:19 <petertodd> jgarzik: I really, really want to see that happen. A much better idea than the inane "lets put a miner in a satellite" ideas that keep popping up.
1142 2013-02-20 19:33:58 <sipa> at least it reduces O(n^2) traffic to O(n) :p
1143 2013-02-20 19:34:15 <petertodd> jgarzik: combine the trusted hardware "big pow" thing I mentioned on the forums with a satellite; it'd basically rebroadcast whatever was the best chain it was given
1144 2013-02-20 19:35:00 zooko has joined
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1147 2013-02-20 19:37:21 <petertodd> hmm... it's too bad there probably will never be space-rated trusted computing hardware... SEV protection would probably be way too hard.
1148 2013-02-20 19:37:39 ralphtheninja has left ()
1149 2013-02-20 19:37:49 <petertodd> *s/SEV/SEU/
1150 2013-02-20 19:38:45 <jgarzik> block dist doesn't need to be trusted
1151 2013-02-20 19:39:13 <jgarzik> though the permissions to transmit would definitely have to be limited
1152 2013-02-20 19:40:49 <petertodd> jgarzik: that's it, with trusted hardware, permissions to transmit *don't* have to be trusted
1153 2013-02-20 19:41:29 <petertodd> (Although, FWIW usually satellites just use undocumented uplink protocols, rather than authentication)
1154 2013-02-20 19:42:08 <petertodd> (Uplinking to satellites even in low-earth-orbit is semi-difficult, and the really far stuff is nigh impossible unless you know the exact orbit emphemeris)
1155 2013-02-20 19:42:46 <gmaxwell> just make the uplink optical and make it very high directional so that you can only uplink in a very narrow band that sweeps across the earth.. no DOS risk. :P
1156 2013-02-20 19:42:55 D34TH has joined
1157 2013-02-20 19:42:55 D34TH has quit (Changing host)
1158 2013-02-20 19:42:56 D34TH has joined
1159 2013-02-20 19:43:34 ielo has joined
1160 2013-02-20 19:43:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: "Is that a rave?" "Nah, just trying to hack the Bitcoin Block Satellite"
1161 2013-02-20 19:44:38 zooko has left ("#tahoe-lafs the secure, decentralized storage system")
1162 2013-02-20 19:45:40 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, the primary trusted part of the computing is that it's in a satelite
1163 2013-02-20 19:46:35 andytoshi has joined
1164 2013-02-20 19:47:18 <gavinandresen> satellites… okey dokey. Just let me know when you figure out what to do for the 0.9 release.
1165 2013-02-20 19:47:43 Sheitan has joined
1166 2013-02-20 19:47:58 <Sheitan> Hello
1167 2013-02-20 19:49:20 <Sheitan> speak french is possible here?
1168 2013-02-20 19:50:55 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Actually no, launch costs for cubesats are about $40k and falling.
1169 2013-02-20 19:51:00 <andytoshi> Sheitan: probably not, sorry
1170 2013-02-20 19:51:21 FatalFlux has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1171 2013-02-20 19:51:37 <Sheitan> ok thank you andytoshi
1172 2013-02-20 19:52:32 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: I know some people who did a whole space telescope for $6 million including all development costs at market rates.
1173 2013-02-20 19:53:33 <MC1984> i think britain is sending a stock android nexus phone into prbit on a cubesat
1174 2013-02-20 19:53:54 <MC1984> probably be ok for LEO if it survives the launch
1175 2013-02-20 19:54:47 <petertodd> MC1984: Yeah, you don't need radhard for LEO. Said space telescope used commercial parts from digikey.
1176 2013-02-20 19:54:53 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1177 2013-02-20 19:54:54 <MC1984> prob wouldnt survive GEO without sheilding though, its too far out
1178 2013-02-20 19:54:54 <gribble> 222224
1179 2013-02-20 19:55:01 <sipa> doh, we missed 222222 :(
1180 2013-02-20 19:55:04 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, my point was more that it's very unlikely someone is going to intercept the satelite without everrrybody knowing
1181 2013-02-20 19:55:22 <petertodd> MC1984: They're actually more reliable than military spec, not less, if you can live with SEU's.
1182 2013-02-20 19:56:19 jdnavarro has left ()
1183 2013-02-20 19:56:35 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Yes, but then the satelite is trusted. Only an issue if it's your only soruce of course...
1184 2013-02-20 19:56:43 <MC1984> i bet it would need s small heater for the battery though
1185 2013-02-20 19:57:25 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: 60kHZ timesignal/best block radio transmitter?
1186 2013-02-20 19:58:10 <petertodd> MC1984: Nah, typical is to do thermal analysis, make the average heat load + heat shedding = 25degC, and then add enough insulation to achieve that. Tricky, but quite doable.
1187 2013-02-20 19:58:21 <MC1984> anyway, bitcoin sattelite into orbit? Sounds like a job for the Foundation
1188 2013-02-20 19:58:47 <petertodd> I'll write a grant proposal next year. :P
1189 2013-02-20 19:58:57 <petertodd> Anyway, lunch hour is over, later.
1190 2013-02-20 19:58:59 <sipa> will surely be a grand proposal
1191 2013-02-20 20:00:52 <ielo> phantomcircuit, i am intercepting the satellite as we speak
1192 2013-02-20 20:02:32 ThomasV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1193 2013-02-20 20:04:28 dvide has joined
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1198 2013-02-20 20:18:07 <TD> jgarzik: bitcoinj is such a node (it can be told what depth to delete data at and such a setting is required)
1199 2013-02-20 20:18:19 <jgarzik> cool
1200 2013-02-20 20:18:19 <TD> denisx: bitcoinj can be compiled to native code and accessed from [Objective] C++ if you want to do that
1201 2013-02-20 20:18:25 <TD> denisx: or at least it could.that probably bitrotted a bit;
1202 2013-02-20 20:18:57 <MC1984> damn there was a 1700BTC pledge for a working android wallet once
1203 2013-02-20 20:19:04 <MC1984> did that get collected on
1204 2013-02-20 20:20:00 <jgarzik> bitcoin nanosat could get into orbit for $60k
1205 2013-02-20 20:20:01 * TD vaguely recalls that
1206 2013-02-20 20:20:09 <TD> MC1984: i bet it isn't claimable now, whoever is holding it
1207 2013-02-20 20:20:14 <jgarzik> just over 2000 BTC for a bitcoin nanosat
1208 2013-02-20 20:20:17 <jgarzik> to broadcast blocks
1209 2013-02-20 20:20:27 <TD> jgarzik: haha, seriously?
1210 2013-02-20 20:20:32 <jgarzik> yep
1211 2013-02-20 20:20:38 <TD> jgarzik: i bet somebody must have 2000 btc kicking around
1212 2013-02-20 20:20:42 <jgarzik> hardware + launch costs
1213 2013-02-20 20:20:46 <TD> crazy
1214 2013-02-20 20:20:47 <jgarzik> no idea about frequency licensing
1215 2013-02-20 20:20:52 <TD> also - manpower/time
1216 2013-02-20 20:20:55 <jgarzik> indeed
1217 2013-02-20 20:21:00 <gmaxwell> nanosat lifetimes aren't so hot though..
1218 2013-02-20 20:21:07 <jgarzik> but yeah, 2k BTC for hardware + launch
1219 2013-02-20 20:21:16 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1220 2013-02-20 20:22:02 <jgarzik> so, say, 8 BTC/day to launch and maintain one nanosat per year
1221 2013-02-20 20:22:08 <gmaxwell> bandwidth on old C-band geosync sats  is cheap... we could be brodcasting the blockchain for <$100/mo.  Antenna is pretty big though.
1222 2013-02-20 20:22:44 sgornick has joined
1223 2013-02-20 20:22:52 <TD> it'd be neat but ….. who'd use it
1224 2013-02-20 20:23:02 <gmaxwell> Bandwidth on stuff that can use a small antenna is more expensive, alas.. though I've never gotten exact quotes on it.
1225 2013-02-20 20:23:23 <TD> 1-way distribution of blocks isn't so useful without an uplink for transactions
1226 2013-02-20 20:23:33 <TD> i suppose you could broadcast transactions over shortwave radio or something
1227 2013-02-20 20:23:41 Belkaar has quit (Changing host)
1228 2013-02-20 20:23:41 Belkaar has joined
1229 2013-02-20 20:24:14 <gmaxwell> TD: well, it prevents partitioning... even if you can't process transactions.
1230 2013-02-20 20:24:19 davout has joined
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1232 2013-02-20 20:24:20 davout has joined
1233 2013-02-20 20:24:41 <MC1984> hmm is bitcoinspinner a thin or SPV client
1234 2013-02-20 20:25:17 <TD> it's ultra-thin. everything is done on the server except signing
1235 2013-02-20 20:25:19 <MC1984> also a bitcoin sattelite of any description would be a rediculous PR coup
1236 2013-02-20 20:25:37 <MC1984> i would fucking BUY BUY BUY before such a bid went up
1237 2013-02-20 20:25:41 <TD> hah
1238 2013-02-20 20:25:44 <TD> that's true
1239 2013-02-20 20:25:47 <MC1984> bird*
1240 2013-02-20 20:25:49 <TD> you can't buy publicity like that
1241 2013-02-20 20:25:59 rbecker is now known as RBecker
1242 2013-02-20 20:26:01 <helo> who gets to feed blocks to the satellite?
1243 2013-02-20 20:26:27 <MC1984> no idea
1244 2013-02-20 20:26:28 <gmaxwell> helo: whoever is paying for it, presumably!
1245 2013-02-20 20:27:01 <TD> assurance contract!
1246 2013-02-20 20:27:10 denisx has joined
1247 2013-02-20 20:29:31 s4m20 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1248 2013-02-20 20:32:41 Goonie has left ()
1249 2013-02-20 20:33:05 <TD> 3% adoption of 0.8 already, yay
1250 2013-02-20 20:36:46 <jgarzik> anyone keeping stats on number of version-2 blocks being generated?
1251 2013-02-20 20:36:51 RBecker is now known as rbecker
1252 2013-02-20 20:36:52 rbecker is now known as RBecker
1253 2013-02-20 20:38:18 <sipa> TD: i calculate 6.6% of weighted-reachable nodes
1254 2013-02-20 20:38:50 <TD> what really matters for android wallet is what the DNS seeds serve
1255 2013-02-20 20:38:53 <sipa> though i think it's too soon to say anything reliable (by crawler takes around a day to visit every node)
1256 2013-02-20 20:38:59 <TD> ok
1257 2013-02-20 20:40:39 <phantomcircuit> sipa, you want a faster one...
1258 2013-02-20 20:40:58 <sipa> phantomcircuit: yes, i do
1259 2013-02-20 20:41:10 <sipa> phantomcircuit: reason is mostly because it keeps trying long-unreachable ones
1260 2013-02-20 20:41:30 <sipa> i have an idea for an algorithm to decide which nodes to try frequently and which infrequently, but haven't implemented it yet
1261 2013-02-20 20:41:58 <phantomcircuit> the crawler i use can go through the roughly 500k advertised peers within an hour
1262 2013-02-20 20:42:20 <sipa> nice
1263 2013-02-20 20:42:43 <TD> that sounds good to merge with the dns seeds
1264 2013-02-20 20:43:16 * jgarzik still wants to find an independent, DDoS-protected DNS host with a good API
1265 2013-02-20 20:43:32 <phantomcircuit> define independent
1266 2013-02-20 20:43:55 owowo has joined
1267 2013-02-20 20:44:14 <jgarzik> not google
1268 2013-02-20 20:44:15 <jgarzik> ;p
1269 2013-02-20 20:44:26 <jgarzik> or amazon
1270 2013-02-20 20:44:26 <MC1984> isnt there no mechanism of bitcoin users knowing theres an update available except them going to bitcoin.org now and again
1271 2013-02-20 20:44:51 <MC1984> i mean, not even a newsletter offer when they download from bitcoin.org or something
1272 2013-02-20 20:44:52 <jgarzik> MC1984: well the alert mechanism exists to scare people into upgrading
1273 2013-02-20 20:45:04 <TD> haha
1274 2013-02-20 20:45:08 <MC1984> that hardly gets used
1275 2013-02-20 20:45:16 <MC1984> ive neer seen an alert
1276 2013-02-20 20:45:27 icebattle has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1277 2013-02-20 20:45:27 <TD> MC1984: this is an optional upgrade. it's healthy for people to upgrade, but it's not an essential one for them.
1278 2013-02-20 20:45:33 <TD> MC1984: perhaps at some point an alert will be sent
1279 2013-02-20 20:45:39 <MC1984> maybe an alert should go out once per major version or something
1280 2013-02-20 20:45:47 <TD> MC1984: but lots of nodes run headless anyway. really, node operators should be subscribed to the mailing list
1281 2013-02-20 20:45:47 <MC1984> or critical bugfix
1282 2013-02-20 20:45:51 <TD> but i bet most of them arent
1283 2013-02-20 20:46:41 <MC1984> like i said, would be cool to be offered email alerts after downloading from bitcoin.org
1284 2013-02-20 20:47:16 WolfAlex_ has joined
1285 2013-02-20 20:47:29 <MC1984> there are still eople running 0.3 ffs
1286 2013-02-20 20:47:59 <sipa> there is actually an announce mailinglist
1287 2013-02-20 20:48:07 <sipa> but i don't think it's been used
1288 2013-02-20 20:48:10 <sipa> for a long time
1289 2013-02-20 20:48:18 <TD> it's still used. gavin posted the 0.8 announcement there
1290 2013-02-20 20:48:23 <TD> it's the original mailing list, basically
1291 2013-02-20 20:48:30 hattorihanzo has quit ()
1292 2013-02-20 20:48:30 <TD> however we're not encouraging people to sign up and we should be
1293 2013-02-20 20:48:36 <TD> the new website can fix that
1294 2013-02-20 20:48:47 WolfAlex has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1295 2013-02-20 20:48:53 phantomcircuit has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1296 2013-02-20 20:49:48 <gavinandresen> which mailing list?  I announced to bitcoin-development, but I haven't posted to http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-list
1297 2013-02-20 20:50:06 robocoin has quit (Quit: >'_')>~(\\\)
1298 2013-02-20 20:50:07 <jgarzik> I think theymos used to copy announcements to that list
1299 2013-02-20 20:50:12 <jgarzik> iirc
1300 2013-02-20 20:50:36 <gavinandresen> yeah, looks like he did.  I'll post the 0.8 announcement there now.
1301 2013-02-20 20:50:56 jgarzik has quit (Quit: upgrade and reboot)
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1303 2013-02-20 20:51:05 <rdponticelli> MC1984: Do you know the story about the liar sheperd and the wolf?
1304 2013-02-20 20:51:29 <MC1984> uhuh.....
1305 2013-02-20 20:51:50 <gavinandresen> is that the one where the shephard wears a red dress and pretends to be asleep, then kills and eats the wolf?
1306 2013-02-20 20:52:08 <MC1984> huehue
1307 2013-02-20 20:53:51 <TD> gavinandresen: new wallet format eh? you could re-use the bitcoinj format :)
1308 2013-02-20 20:53:58 <TD> ok it's not perfect. it could be improved along the way though
1309 2013-02-20 20:54:13 <gavinandresen> as long as it is base64-encoded XML I'll be happy.
1310 2013-02-20 20:55:05 <rdponticelli> gavinandresen: lol
1311 2013-02-20 20:55:30 <sipa> gavinandresen: i'm sure you'd appreciate base-66 more
1312 2013-02-20 20:55:42 <TD> base-58 is more Bitcoinish
1313 2013-02-20 20:55:52 <TD> it's so convenient to be able to type out a wallet by hand
1314 2013-02-20 20:55:58 <rdponticelli> Just don't cry wolf
1315 2013-02-20 20:56:05 <sipa> base58 is a bit too 2009 imho
1316 2013-02-20 20:56:11 <TD> good point
1317 2013-02-20 20:56:19 <MC1984> whos crying wolf about what
1318 2013-02-20 20:56:21 <TD> convert it to PGP words then people can memorize their wallet
1319 2013-02-20 20:56:35 <gavinandresen> Good Idea
1320 2013-02-20 20:56:46 <sipa> we need our own wordlist though
1321 2013-02-20 20:56:53 <MC1984> whats tonal, base 12 or something? do that
1322 2013-02-20 20:57:16 <TD> random words in sequence are hard to memorize though.
1323 2013-02-20 20:57:19 <TD> we could use famous movie quotes instead
1324 2013-02-20 20:57:36 <TD> that way you can print out your wallet, and the CIA won't know it's a wallet. they'll think it's just a book of movie quotes
1325 2013-02-20 20:57:43 <sipa> oh, good idea!
1326 2013-02-20 20:57:55 <TD> this is a plan with no flaw
1327 2013-02-20 20:58:32 <rdponticelli> MC1984: I mean, using the alert system unnedlessly would be like crying wolf...
1328 2013-02-20 20:58:38 <sipa> perfect, flawless, sublime
1329 2013-02-20 20:58:49 <sipa> equalled only by its monumental failure
1330 2013-02-20 20:59:19 <MC1984> like i said, only use it for major versions or critical bugfixes
1331 2013-02-20 20:59:29 <ne0futur> its really urgent to heve some kind of read only blockchain, or blockchain provider in the default bitcoin client
1332 2013-02-20 20:59:34 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1333 2013-02-20 20:59:37 <MC1984> i bet most bitcoin users have no idea it even exists
1334 2013-02-20 20:59:39 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
1335 2013-02-20 20:59:47 <sipa> ne0futur: bootstrap.dat torrent?
1336 2013-02-20 20:59:53 <ne0futur> new users wait for 2 days when they want to try bitcoin . . .
1337 2013-02-20 21:00:20 rdymac has joined
1338 2013-02-20 21:00:25 <gavinandresen> MC1984: we only use the alert system for critical fixes, to avoid the "cry wolf" problem.  It SHOULD be a surprise to users.
1339 2013-02-20 21:00:50 <ne0futur> and also for people running many nodes and wanting to be their own blockchain provider
1340 2013-02-20 21:00:58 <ne0futur> or hosting many walets on the same server , or vps
1341 2013-02-20 21:01:02 <TD> ne0futur: i think soon we can begin recommending users towards some non-full client by default unless they are OK with the wait and helping out
1342 2013-02-20 21:01:12 <ne0futur> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3199/read-only-blockchain-in-bitcoind-patch-ideas
1343 2013-02-20 21:01:20 <TD> gavinandresen: all it does it put something in the status bar. the message itself doesn't have to sound alarmist
1344 2013-02-20 21:01:22 <sipa> ne0futur: oh, you mean sharing the chain data?
1345 2013-02-20 21:01:26 <TD> i mean it doesn't even pop up an alert window
1346 2013-02-20 21:01:28 <gavinandresen> I think we could begin recommending users towards other solutions a couple of months ago…
1347 2013-02-20 21:01:35 <TD> probably most users wouldn't even see it in critical situations
1348 2013-02-20 21:01:36 <ne0futur> sipa: that ewas an idea I liked
1349 2013-02-20 21:01:40 <TD> gavinandresen: well, which solutions?
1350 2013-02-20 21:01:50 vv01f_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1351 2013-02-20 21:01:57 <sipa> ne0futur: well, basically split wallet and blockchain into separate services
1352 2013-02-20 21:02:02 <MC1984> just make QT a SPV client until it syncs in the background
1353 2013-02-20 21:02:03 <sipa> i like that too
1354 2013-02-20 21:02:06 <ne0futur> sipa: many people ( including me ) want to trust only the official client
1355 2013-02-20 21:02:08 <TD> MC1984: lol "just"
1356 2013-02-20 21:02:13 <MC1984> thats the major complaint of waiting to use it fixed
1357 2013-02-20 21:02:16 <ne0futur> I can trust a blockchain provider ( myself )
1358 2013-02-20 21:02:22 <TD> MC1984: go ahead and write the code for that ....
1359 2013-02-20 21:02:26 <ne0futur> i cant trust another client than the official one
1360 2013-02-20 21:02:33 <TD> ne0futur: why not ?
1361 2013-02-20 21:02:36 <MC1984> TD to alternative is "everyone ignore the satoshi client lol"
1362 2013-02-20 21:02:46 <TD> MC1984: not at all. MultiBit is an SPV client.
1363 2013-02-20 21:02:47 <gavinandresen> TD: I think any of the clients that have been around for a year or more.  And I think the new crop of web-wallets that don't know/keep your private keys (that's more controversial, though) and have been around for a year or more.
1364 2013-02-20 21:02:59 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1365 2013-02-20 21:03:01 <TD> gavinandresen: afaik only blockchain.info fits that criteria.
1366 2013-02-20 21:03:20 <TD> gavinandresen: and sure, i'm not against advertising that. it's a great service. not particularly decentralized though.
1367 2013-02-20 21:03:21 <ne0futur> TD: well find me a developper with a 10 year old gpg key signed by hundred of open source developpers ,I could change my minfd
1368 2013-02-20 21:03:25 <gavinandresen> TD: I like blockchain.info a lot (that's controversial, though, I know gmaxwell thinks I should hate it)
1369 2013-02-20 21:03:33 <TD> right now we have 3 different clients we could recommend, none of which are exactly ideal in all respects :(
1370 2013-02-20 21:03:52 <TD> ne0futur: how about a google employee with a >10 year track record of open source development?
1371 2013-02-20 21:04:09 <ne0futur> yup that could help for sure
1372 2013-02-20 21:04:16 <ne0futur> text only client ?
1373 2013-02-20 21:04:23 <sipa> TD: oh, i'll need to sign your GPG key!
1374 2013-02-20 21:04:30 <TD> gavinandresen: it's an awesome site. Ben does a great job. at some point the distinction between desktop apps and web apps starts to blur so much it's not worth worrying about.
1375 2013-02-20 21:04:37 jgarzik has joined
1376 2013-02-20 21:04:40 <ne0futur> which language ? I cant allow stack exec on my serevers
1377 2013-02-20 21:04:47 jgarzik has quit (Changing host)
1378 2013-02-20 21:04:47 jgarzik has joined
1379 2013-02-20 21:05:00 <sipa> ne0futur: TD wrote BitcoinJ which powers Multibit and Bitcoin Wallet for Android
1380 2013-02-20 21:05:00 <ne0futur> ( that means no java )
1381 2013-02-20 21:05:09 <MC1984> bitcoin devs in advocating web wallets shocker
1382 2013-02-20 21:05:20 <ne0futur> BitcoinJprobably means java -> trash
1383 2013-02-20 21:05:26 <TD> ne0futur: if you insist on *only* using code that i've signed off on, you can use WalletTool which is a (java) command line app. it can also be compiled to a native binary using GCJ but that's a pain in the ass currently.
1384 2013-02-20 21:05:38 <gavinandresen> I've long said that I think in the future it'll be all web wallets and mobile apps....
1385 2013-02-20 21:05:42 <TD> it'd need a bit of dev work to catch it up to the latest code
1386 2013-02-20 21:05:46 <TD> s/mobile/mobile and tablet/
1387 2013-02-20 21:05:47 <ne0futur> java -> stack exec -> no way
1388 2013-02-20 21:06:03 <sipa> i find the idea that people trust a site that claims not having private keys on the server more, weird
1389 2013-02-20 21:06:07 <gavinandresen> sure, mobile == "device you carry around with you"
1390 2013-02-20 21:06:08 <ne0futur> I stopped using chpax years ago :p
1391 2013-02-20 21:06:08 <TD> ne0futur: ?? what have you got against an executable stack? you realize you can enable/disable them on a per-process basis, right?
1392 2013-02-20 21:06:11 <MC1984> is the actual bitcoin network inompatible with the future then or what
1393 2013-02-20 21:06:21 <sipa> they can change that in a second without anyone noticing, i'm sure
1394 2013-02-20 21:06:24 <TD> sipa: it's open source and can be audited. whether anyone actually does so, i don't know
1395 2013-02-20 21:06:27 <sipa> just as quickly as they could run with the money
1396 2013-02-20 21:06:30 <gavinandresen> oh, and maybe hardware wallet doohickeys if you've got a LOT of coin
1397 2013-02-20 21:06:39 <TD> sipa: that's true of any client that can auto update. including the android app.
1398 2013-02-20 21:06:50 <TD> ne0futur: ok, stick with the official client then
1399 2013-02-20 21:07:00 <sipa> TD: yes, to an extent, but there is no way where that is easier than for a website
1400 2013-02-20 21:07:15 <sipa> i trust certain websites, sure
1401 2013-02-20 21:07:15 <ne0futur> TD: sorry ;(
1402 2013-02-20 21:07:27 <TD> sipa: if a developer goes bad or is compromised, they could easily push out an update that "sounds legit". at least they could until we split the Android signing key.
1403 2013-02-20 21:07:29 <sipa> but the fact that they don't have the private keys doesn't matter much
1404 2013-02-20 21:07:33 * TD hasn't actually told Goonie about that yet :)
1405 2013-02-20 21:07:49 <gavinandresen> TD: did you find a way to split signing keys?
1406 2013-02-20 21:08:05 <Diablo-D3> http://fighttheurgetofade.com/
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1408 2013-02-20 21:08:56 gruvfunk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1409 2013-02-20 21:09:07 <ne0futur> "what have you got against an executable stack? " -> why would a language want to exec the stack ?
1410 2013-02-20 21:09:16 <TD> there are papers saying it's possible. i didn't find an open source implementation for RSA yet.
1411 2013-02-20 21:09:23 <gavinandresen> I would REALLY like to find a way to split signing keys, so I don't have to worry so much about false alarms like https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2324
1412 2013-02-20 21:09:57 <TD> ne0futur: actually it looks like java may not need that anymore:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openjdk-6/+bug/409736
1413 2013-02-20 21:10:17 <Diablo-D3> er
1414 2013-02-20 21:10:22 <Diablo-D3> why wouldnt you want to exec the stack?
1415 2013-02-20 21:10:39 <Diablo-D3> sounds like a lispy thing to do
1416 2013-02-20 21:11:08 <ne0futur> Diablo-D3: because in binry the stack is for storing data,not code
1417 2013-02-20 21:11:29 <TD> gavinandresen: that looks like a plain old AV FP. annoying that it's signed and clamav still triggers. but i'm not sure ClamAV does signer reputations
1418 2013-02-20 21:11:38 <Diablo-D3> heh
1419 2013-02-20 21:11:43 <Diablo-D3> I dont know why anyone cares about ANY AV
1420 2013-02-20 21:11:45 <TD> gavinandresen: i found a tool that strips EXE signatures. maybe start there :)
1421 2013-02-20 21:11:46 <Diablo-D3> none of them work
1422 2013-02-20 21:11:50 <Diablo-D3> they're not security frameworks
1423 2013-02-20 21:12:00 <Diablo-D3> they dont stop viruses
1424 2013-02-20 21:12:08 <Diablo-D3> they dont stop malware
1425 2013-02-20 21:12:11 <Diablo-D3> and they never will
1426 2013-02-20 21:12:16 <Diablo-D3> it has to be built into windows by microsoft.
1427 2013-02-20 21:12:27 <TD> gavinandresen: did you see that yesterday? i sent you the url but it may have got lost in scrollback
1428 2013-02-20 21:12:59 <gavinandresen> TD: yes. But if the release process was "I build, half-sign, then give the .App to somebody else to virus scan and complete signature" I'd be a little less worried about the build machine getting infected somehow.
1429 2013-02-20 21:13:16 <gavinandresen> TD: and yes, saw the signature stripper code
1430 2013-02-20 21:13:19 <TD> cool
1431 2013-02-20 21:13:26 <TD> splitting RSA keys is more advanced. it can come later
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1433 2013-02-20 21:13:30 <ne0futur> TD: well i ll give a try try to your WalletTool
1434 2013-02-20 21:13:43 <TD> ne0futur: ok then.
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1437 2013-02-20 21:14:07 <ne0futur> https://github.com/RobKohr/bitcoinj/blob/master/wallet-tool ?
1438 2013-02-20 21:14:23 <sipa> why do people assume that all code is hosted on github :P
1439 2013-02-20 21:14:41 <MC1984> Diablo-D3 all of that website is right except that part where anyone gives a shit that no one has seen you outsid for 3 months
1440 2013-02-20 21:14:42 <ne0futur> eh i just googled ;9
1441 2013-02-20 21:15:08 <sipa> ne0futur: http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/ afaik
1442 2013-02-20 21:15:21 <TD> right
1443 2013-02-20 21:15:45 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: actually, there are pathologically crazy people that harass people who withdraw from society
1444 2013-02-20 21:15:48 <TD> ne0futur: look at the forum in development for the 0.7 announcement. it has a signed "git reset --hard ….." command you can use after cloning the bitcoinj repo to get onto the stable release
1445 2013-02-20 21:15:52 <Diablo-D3> I think those people need serious help
1446 2013-02-20 21:16:04 <Diablo-D3> the reason people withdraw is BECAUSE of the crazies
1447 2013-02-20 21:16:31 <TD> ne0futur: once you've got that, you need a copy of the Maven build tool. then run "mvn install", go into the tools directory, and look at the script to see how to run it. user friendly it ain't, but there's help if you run it with no command line args.
1448 2013-02-20 21:16:31 <MC1984> to those people, seeing someone withdraw puts a dent in the illusion that the world is fine and dandy
1449 2013-02-20 21:16:41 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: bwhahahaha
1450 2013-02-20 21:16:41 <Diablo-D3> oh man
1451 2013-02-20 21:16:45 <Diablo-D3> who the fuck believes that shit
1452 2013-02-20 21:16:47 <MC1984> they intervene more for thier own sanity than that of th subject of thir "concern"
1453 2013-02-20 21:16:52 <Diablo-D3> the world has never been fine and dandy since day one
1454 2013-02-20 21:17:07 <Diablo-D3> the moment some fuckwad said HEY HUMANS SOUND LIKE A GOOD IDEA, it all went downhill from there
1455 2013-02-20 21:17:20 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: yes, and I simply do not give a shit about those kind of people
1456 2013-02-20 21:17:26 <Diablo-D3> they arent worth my time
1457 2013-02-20 21:17:34 <MC1984> ive had periods where i just dont feel like going outside much for a couple of months, usually get left the fuck alone whih is fine by me
1458 2013-02-20 21:17:42 Sheitan has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1459 2013-02-20 21:17:45 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: I do the same thing
1460 2013-02-20 21:17:47 <MC1984> this is actually pretty OT for dev though.......
1461 2013-02-20 21:17:50 <Diablo-D3> Im actually lucky that no one bothers me
1462 2013-02-20 21:17:57 <helo> oh, to have ample alone time...
1463 2013-02-20 21:18:00 <Diablo-D3> but there are some people who are just fucking assholes
1464 2013-02-20 21:18:10 <Diablo-D3> and just dont get the fact that they're assholes and NOBODY LIKES TIME
1465 2013-02-20 21:18:12 <Scrat> damn. i can only do that for a week MC1984
1466 2013-02-20 21:18:19 <Scrat> tops
1467 2013-02-20 21:18:21 <jouke> TD: I saw you mentioning that the new BitcoinJ also carries an example program that has a full pruning block implementation and one can get a list of unspent transactions from that. Is that example ready to run?
1468 2013-02-20 21:18:36 <MC1984> Scrat i mean go outside in an elective sense
1469 2013-02-20 21:18:38 <Diablo-D3> NO I DONT WANT TO SEE PICTURES OF YOUR BABY, NO I DONT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT YOUR EX GF, NO I DONT WANT TO GO DRINKING WITH YOU, NO I DONT FOLLOW YOU ON FACEBOOK
1470 2013-02-20 21:18:44 <Diablo-D3> seriously, they're fucking distractions
1471 2013-02-20 21:19:00 <Diablo-D3> some people actually want to get shit done in the few years they're stuck on this rock
1472 2013-02-20 21:19:19 <Scrat> MC1984, in that case 1 month
1473 2013-02-20 21:19:25 <TD> Jouke: look at the article on the website about full verification to see how to use that
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1475 2013-02-20 21:21:28 <jouke> TD: does it also keep track of multisig transactions?
1476 2013-02-20 21:21:59 <TD> well full verification mode obviously runs scripts
1477 2013-02-20 21:22:06 <TD> like regular bitcoin does
1478 2013-02-20 21:22:12 <TD> the wallet doesn't understand multisig outputs
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1482 2013-02-20 21:25:09 <TD> gavinandresen: the code signing certs actually are RSA keys right?
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1486 2013-02-20 21:33:18 <sipa> offtopic: http://1humor.com/img/upload/22022012062225-usb.jpg
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1488 2013-02-20 21:35:39 <Luke-Jr> sipa: so true
1489 2013-02-20 21:37:42 Zarutian has joined
1490 2013-02-20 21:41:14 <TD> oh goodie
1491 2013-02-20 21:41:17 <TD> a new bitcoin paper is coming out soon
1492 2013-02-20 21:41:38 <TD> "Zerocoin: Anonymous Distributed e-Cash from Bitcoin". To appear in IEEE Symposium on Security and Privacy (Oakland 2013)
1493 2013-02-20 21:41:50 <TD> and there was me thinking Bitcoin _was_ anonymous distributed e-cash
1494 2013-02-20 21:42:04 <Luke-Jr> TD: except it's not anonymous?
1495 2013-02-20 21:42:11 <sipa> i don't consider it anonymous or e-cash
1496 2013-02-20 21:42:29 <TD> what would be anonymous then?
1497 2013-02-20 21:42:36 <sipa> chaumian token
1498 2013-02-20 21:42:37 <sipa> s
1499 2013-02-20 21:42:49 <Luke-Jr> TD: not being able to trace money I presume
1500 2013-02-20 21:43:13 Lexa has quit (Quit: Lexa)
1501 2013-02-20 21:44:26 <TD> and what makes you think can you trace money today? when bitcoin is used properly, you get the outline of what happened to the money, but you don't know where it went
1502 2013-02-20 21:44:46 <Luke-Jr> subpoena every party
1503 2013-02-20 21:44:54 <sipa> it's still not anonymous
1504 2013-02-20 21:44:59 <sipa> it may be hard to trace
1505 2013-02-20 21:45:22 <gmaxwell> Its a categorically inferior level of privacy than chaum tokens give. I don't know what names you want to assign to things... but if you create a hierarchy of privacy, bitcoin is not the most private kind.
1506 2013-02-20 21:45:24 <sipa> but every transaction is still visible for the entire world
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1508 2013-02-20 21:50:06 <gmaxwell> as an aside, I've now had people panhandle me believing that I'm rich because of the transactions from the taint thread. Perfect example of the fragility of Bitcoin's anonymity. I have one address everyone knows is mine, and I'm getting nagged about other inputs on txn that it has signed.  (which— was, of course, the point, so I'm not complaining)
1509 2013-02-20 21:50:17 <TD> Luke-Jr: and you know who the parties are … ?
1510 2013-02-20 21:50:44 <Luke-Jr> TD: presumably if there is a problem with the transaction, you know the first one
1511 2013-02-20 21:50:46 <sipa> TD: i don't think anyone is arguing that if used correctly, bitcoin can be hard to trace
1512 2013-02-20 21:50:49 <TD> gmaxwell: that rather assumes you can reach the Chaumian bank without compromising your privacy
1513 2013-02-20 21:51:08 <TD> as far as i know, it was always theoretical. nobody ever actually made a real, working, anonymous chaum bank. it'd have to be accessed via Tor at minimum
1514 2013-02-20 21:51:33 <TD> Luke-Jr: but any monetary system can be done that way. if you can "Walk the chain" by getting everyone to tell you who they interacted with, crypto doesn't matter
1515 2013-02-20 21:52:02 <sipa> Market idea: Chaumian Bank on RFC 1149
1516 2013-02-20 21:52:47 <gmaxwell> TD: I'm not saying these things exist, or even that they're pratical (though I think they are)... only that bitcoin is not the be all end all of privacy by far.
1517 2013-02-20 21:52:55 <Eliel_> TD: unless someone in the chain of transfers actually doesn't know who the counterparty was.
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1519 2013-02-20 21:53:48 <MC1984> gmaxwell thats hilarious
1520 2013-02-20 21:53:49 <Luke-Jr> TD: but unlike (eg) cash, you can prove the bitcoin transactions occurred
1521 2013-02-20 21:54:09 <Eliel_> is it necessary to close bitcoind with -detachdb before upgrading to 0.8?
1522 2013-02-20 21:54:14 Gladamas has joined
1523 2013-02-20 21:54:15 <sipa> Eliel_: no
1524 2013-02-20 21:54:16 <Luke-Jr> Eliel_: nope
1525 2013-02-20 21:54:18 <Luke-Jr> won't even help
1526 2013-02-20 21:54:28 <sipa> the 0.7 database is just ignored :p
1527 2013-02-20 21:54:36 <Eliel_> ok, great, I can kill it then :)
1528 2013-02-20 21:54:43 <Eliel_> it's taking ages to shutdown :P
1529 2013-02-20 21:54:49 <sipa> well, technically there can be problems
1530 2013-02-20 21:55:03 <sipa> as you still need the wallet from the 0.7 db env
1531 2013-02-20 21:55:20 <gmaxwell> More than they occured. It's quite hard to use bitcoin without information leakage, even under perfect use.  As you combine inputs to reach values you expose more than the minimum amount of data about your identity.
1532 2013-02-20 21:55:22 <Eliel_> I used the backupwallet rpc just before the stop rpc
1533 2013-02-20 21:55:41 <Eliel_> so, that should be enough to recover in case something goes south
1534 2013-02-20 21:56:31 <gmaxwell> I think its more correct to say that bitcoin is pseudonymous. The strength of the pseudonomyity depends on how you use it.
1535 2013-02-20 21:58:38 <sipa> Eliel_: yup, you're safe
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1556 2013-02-20 22:45:20 <MC1984> i suppose maybe
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1558 2013-02-20 22:45:49 <MC1984> the strength of bitcoins psedonomity depends on what would and would not pass muster in a court of law
1559 2013-02-20 22:46:14 <MC1984> assuming we have quaint concepts such as beyon resonable doubt for very much longer
1560 2013-02-20 22:46:23 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: only if you're trying to hide from a government
1561 2013-02-20 22:46:52 <MC1984> or that a jury would be all like, wtf is this shit, seems like shady hacker stuff, fuck it convict
1562 2013-02-20 22:46:53 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: almost certainly, I'd think any government trying to ban something they have no jurisdiction to ban, would also prosecute unfairly
1563 2013-02-20 22:47:03 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1564 2013-02-20 22:47:13 <MC1984> Luke-Jr thats my implication yes
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1566 2013-02-20 22:47:45 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: my point is, if the government is banning something you have a *right* to, they aren't going to give you a jury or care about evidence
1567 2013-02-20 22:48:27 <MC1984> well people used to have a right to financia privacy when large sums are involved and then we got AML stuff
1568 2013-02-20 22:48:32 <alexwaters> did we get rid of better means? sorry i have been absent. is there a way to support feature development with donated bitcoins/hashes?
1569 2013-02-20 22:48:48 <alexwaters> i am talking to someone who wants to donate a sizable sum
1570 2013-02-20 22:48:53 word has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1571 2013-02-20 22:48:57 <sipa> alexwaters: you can send a donation to the bitcoin foundation
1572 2013-02-20 22:49:30 <MC1984> alexwaters the foundation? i pays gavins salary
1573 2013-02-20 22:49:51 da2ce7_d is now known as da2ce7
1574 2013-02-20 22:50:09 <MC1984> with more coins it could pay more salary maybe
1575 2013-02-20 22:50:15 <MC1984> and we might get that sattelite
1576 2013-02-20 22:50:28 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: I meant real rights, not civil rights
1577 2013-02-20 22:50:29 <gavinandresen> alexwaters: yes, bettermeans died. Foundation is the best answer; if they want to fund something specific, a grand administered through the Foundation might be a good way to do it.
1578 2013-02-20 22:55:54 <MC1984> i dont really think bitcoin is anonymous at all, not when someone REALLY doesnt want you to be
1579 2013-02-20 22:56:30 <MC1984> i mean, look at the NSAs preferred method of keeping tabs of everyone, build a fuckhuge datacenter in the desert and just store everything forever until it can be made sense of
1580 2013-02-20 22:56:34 <MC1984> bitcoin already does that
1581 2013-02-20 22:56:45 rdponticelli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1582 2013-02-20 22:56:56 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, assuming they will ever make sense of it
1583 2013-02-20 22:57:43 <gmaxwell> MC1984: Jacob appelbaum has recently been making a point that the purpose of privacy technology needs to be to prevent you from being made a target/suspect. Mere suspicion brings a majority of the total harm of being identified, and suspicion doesn't have the checks and balances— those come too late to saves someone from the harm of suspicion.
1584 2013-02-20 22:57:59 <MC1984> there might be datums about you in the chain that cant be used to unmask you YET, but will with the addition of otehr datums you make in the future. Its basically a nightmare for anyone that wants to do something and get away with it, and stay gotten way
1585 2013-02-20 22:58:47 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1586 2013-02-20 22:58:49 <MC1984> gmaxwell hes right
1587 2013-02-20 22:58:57 <gmaxwell> MC1984: worse— it's hard to reason about. You'd have to be an vigilant expert to even know how exposed you are. The safest thing to do is to assume you're fully exposed.
1588 2013-02-20 22:58:59 <MC1984> he would know too
1589 2013-02-20 23:00:18 <MC1984> gmaxwell at the end of the day, these organisations 'suspicions' about you can be based on the most specious shit like just annoying them somehow
1590 2013-02-20 23:00:36 <sipa> this is strange: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/18w8hc/please_upgrade_to_bitcoin_08_and_help/c8ipf3l
1591 2013-02-20 23:00:44 <MC1984> the record you leave in the chain is already way above that threshold, if youre doing anything at all interesting
1592 2013-02-20 23:01:15 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, there's a joke in there about fully exposed
1593 2013-02-20 23:01:25 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1594 2013-02-20 23:01:35 <gmaxwell> "On IRC everyone is fully exposed."
1595 2013-02-20 23:01:35 <MC1984> phantomcircuit ask the TSA
1596 2013-02-20 23:01:51 <gmaxwell> sipa: I wonder what kind of filesystem "B:" is?
1597 2013-02-20 23:02:29 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah, that's the kind of cause i expect
1598 2013-02-20 23:02:33 <MC1984> its the letter reserved for the second floppy drive in windows, back in the days when 2 FD were the fashion
1599 2013-02-20 23:02:51 <MC1984> its still reserved
1600 2013-02-20 23:03:19 <MC1984> well DOS probably i suppose
1601 2013-02-20 23:03:36 <andytoshi> if you cd to B: but you only have one drive, it'll still work
1602 2013-02-20 23:03:43 <andytoshi> both A: and B: refer to the same floppy disk
1603 2013-02-20 23:03:53 <andytoshi> wait, not cd...just type "B:"
1604 2013-02-20 23:03:59 <gmaxwell> I ... don't remember that! (but yea, not cd. :P)
1605 2013-02-20 23:05:08 <_W_> it's a bit off topic but since it's already a topic - is there a comprehensive manual or book of some kind about information and operational security for the civilian?
1606 2013-02-20 23:05:26 <gmaxwell> (The last time I needed to use a 3.5" drive — I had to disassemble one of these: http://www.vintagesynth.com/kurzweil/kurzweil_k2600_lg.jpg to borrow the drive from it!)
1607 2013-02-20 23:05:57 <gmaxwell> _W_: http://activistsguide.blogspot.com/
1608 2013-02-20 23:06:18 <gmaxwell> (though I don't remember if I can recommend it)
1609 2013-02-20 23:06:24 <_W_> appears to be more of a beginner's guide
1610 2013-02-20 23:07:09 <_W_> I'm thinking of something that goes enough in-depth to tell you how to avoid timestamps on your secret encrypted volumes for true plausible deniability (to take an example of one thing most people don't think of)
1611 2013-02-20 23:08:56 <_W_> or is the act of gathering such a resource sufficiently likely to draw attention to you (unless you learn all the lessons in it before you gather them together) that no one has dared?
1612 2013-02-20 23:09:31 <MC1984> ask the people who get pickd up for downloading the anarchists cookbook
1613 2013-02-20 23:09:54 <gmaxwell> More likely that it just takes work, and its hard— as you go into more and more detail you risk distracting people from more important simple things.
1614 2013-02-20 23:10:24 <helo> rule #1: completely avoid the internet
1615 2013-02-20 23:10:24 <andytoshi> it'd be nice to have something in the style of the anachist's cookbook
1616 2013-02-20 23:10:28 <gmaxwell> And more detailed techniques are more threat-model specific.
1617 2013-02-20 23:10:50 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: half correct stuff that will almost get you killed?
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1619 2013-02-20 23:11:02 <andytoshi> at the very least, it would make a lot more people suspicious, and that'd weaken how threatened any specific suspicious person would be
1620 2013-02-20 23:11:24 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: no, just the writing style :P
1621 2013-02-20 23:11:35 <andytoshi> i admit, given the hype around the AC, i was surprised and horrified to see what was actually in it..
1622 2013-02-20 23:11:54 * helo notes that making a lot more people suspicious does not weaken the threat facing that group
1623 2013-02-20 23:12:50 <_W_> (that's another thing many people don't think of - your style of writing (such as how often you use parentheses, or if you use - as a standin for mdash, or simply word choices or typical sentence structure) helps identify you - but can be obfuscated)
1624 2013-02-20 23:13:20 <_W_> helo: for many threats, it does
1625 2013-02-20 23:13:35 <_W_> adversaries with limited resources will be spread thin, for instance
1626 2013-02-20 23:13:55 <andytoshi> helo: if "suspicious" also means "costs a lot to investigate", as it would in the case of strong encryption usage, i think _W_ is right
1627 2013-02-20 23:14:13 maaku has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1628 2013-02-20 23:14:15 <helo> i meant "the new people that are facing suspicion aren't more safe"
1629 2013-02-20 23:14:38 <helo> it helps the people who were previously under suspicion
1630 2013-02-20 23:14:39 <andytoshi> ah, that's certainly true
1631 2013-02-20 23:14:43 maaku has joined
1632 2013-02-20 23:16:00 <andytoshi> the hope would be that the new people aren't actually doing anything against the state, they're just fooling around with some popular book
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1634 2013-02-20 23:16:19 <andytoshi> e.g., i'm using tor right now to connect to IRC, even though i'm authenticated to freenode and have posted my full name here dozens of times
1635 2013-02-20 23:16:24 <andytoshi> my traffic certainly isn't anonymous, but it increases the crap that spooks need to sift thruogh
1636 2013-02-20 23:17:13 <_W_> helo: again, it depends. Short-term, perhaps, but if you can make e.g. random laptop checks too expensive and ineffective, you might actually make Random J Workaholic safer too
1637 2013-02-20 23:24:05 <gmaxwell> [OT] (on-topic)  It looks like we could use more hidden service available nodes.
1638 2013-02-20 23:25:27 Hashdog1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1639 2013-02-20 23:25:39 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: i can set one up -- just point the hidden service at localhost:8333 ?
1640 2013-02-20 23:26:17 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: yes, and tell bitcoin the hidden service name.  See doc/Tor.txt
1641 2013-02-20 23:26:35 <andytoshi> cool, thx
1642 2013-02-20 23:26:51 <jaakkos> i suppose tor doesn't really let you start the hidden service automagically from bitcoind... that would be cool
1643 2013-02-20 23:27:15 <sipa> jaakkos: unfortunately no(t yet)
1644 2013-02-20 23:27:18 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: there is a tor bug filed for a feature to control hidden services via the controlport.. but its not done yet.
1645 2013-02-20 23:27:52 <jaakkos> ok :)
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1650 2013-02-20 23:30:20 <jaakkos> i was thinking if bitcoin and tor could merge
1651 2013-02-20 23:30:33 <jaakkos> to strenghten each other by adding nodes
1652 2013-02-20 23:30:38 word__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1653 2013-02-20 23:31:20 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: pretty different things.
1654 2013-02-20 23:31:25 <gmaxwell> (plus, tor is centeralized!)
1655 2013-02-20 23:31:59 maaku has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1662 2013-02-20 23:35:23 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: yes, probably not a sensible idea... but i like playing with crazy thoughts
1663 2013-02-20 23:35:39 <MC1984> i always thought it would be cool for bitcoin to have its own onion routing thing by default
1664 2013-02-20 23:35:50 <MC1984> or more like i2p, garlick routing or whatever?
1665 2013-02-20 23:35:52 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1666 2013-02-20 23:36:02 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1667 2013-02-20 23:36:06 <sipa> gavinandresen: it seems you didn't use the latest release-notes.txt for the actual announcement
1668 2013-02-20 23:36:06 <MC1984> then i realised, its going on the big list with allt he otehr shit that would be nice too
1669 2013-02-20 23:36:09 <sipa> oh
1670 2013-02-20 23:36:16 <sipa> ;;later tell gavinandresen it seems you didn't use the latest release-notes.txt for the actual announcement
1671 2013-02-20 23:36:16 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1672 2013-02-20 23:36:19 <MC1984> so tor support is great for now
1673 2013-02-20 23:39:15 Guest67644 is now known as Hasimir
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1687 2013-02-20 23:49:32 <owowo> I get following error while trying to compile on ubuntu 12.10
1688 2013-02-20 23:49:35 <owowo> In file included from db.cpp:6:0:
1689 2013-02-20 23:49:35 <owowo> db.h:14:20: fatal error: db_cxx.h: No such file or directory
1690 2013-02-20 23:49:35 <owowo> compilation terminated.
1691 2013-02-20 23:49:35 <owowo> make: *** [obj/db.o] Error 1
1692 2013-02-20 23:49:44 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1693 2013-02-20 23:49:46 <owowo> what did i miss?
1694 2013-02-20 23:50:07 <sipa> install libdb5.1++-dev
1695 2013-02-20 23:50:41 <Luke-Jr> or libdb4.8++-dev <.<
1696 2013-02-20 23:50:49 <Luke-Jr> from the PPA
1697 2013-02-20 23:50:51 phma_ has joined
1698 2013-02-20 23:51:09 reizuki__ has joined
1699 2013-02-20 23:51:09 reizuki__ has quit (Changing host)
1700 2013-02-20 23:51:09 reizuki__ has joined
1701 2013-02-20 23:52:02 <owowo> working, thx :)
1702 2013-02-20 23:53:57 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: lot of demand for 0.8.0 in the PPA in case you didn't notice yet
1703 2013-02-20 23:55:27 phma has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)