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45 2013-02-26 01:03:09 <Luke-Jr> sipa: just a thought: maybe it would be a nice idea to implement HD wallets (the BIP part, at least) as an independent library that other software can use? I can imagine feeding BFGMiner a keychain instead of a static address for solo mining, for example
46 2013-02-26 01:03:50 <Luke-Jr> (although to use it in BFGMiner it'd need to be plain old C.. but still, a library is the right direction IMO)
47 2013-02-26 01:06:29 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you mean like the code sipa wrote for the testing stuff?
48 2013-02-26 01:07:08 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I mean when HD wallets are implemented for real
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50 2013-02-26 01:20:56 <jrmithdobbs> HD?
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53 2013-02-26 01:27:17 <gmaxwell> BIP32
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88 2013-02-26 03:23:14 <HM> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wqrY2F_Xz3s some late night amusement for those still up and coding
89 2013-02-26 03:23:23 <HM> (related to money :P)
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118 2013-02-26 03:59:41 <QM> The channel logs aren't up to date. Is that normal?
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144 2013-02-26 05:04:32 <jaakkos> what kind of elliptic curve magik is vanitygen using to make the generation so fast...
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146 2013-02-26 05:06:21 <jaakkos> it's heavy to compute Q = kG so vanitygen is reusing (k,Q), subtracting and summing things to them, but i didn't yet figure out from the code what's actually up
147 2013-02-26 05:06:25 <jaakkos> gotta sleep but will read replies.
148 2013-02-26 05:07:06 <etotheipi_> jaakkos: I've been curious about that, too...
149 2013-02-26 05:07:25 <jaakkos> on my CPU vanitygen gives 150 Mkps while brute Q = kG gives 10 kkps
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152 2013-02-26 05:15:49 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: it's just stepping G at a time, so its an add not a multiply.
153 2013-02-26 05:16:35 <gmaxwell> part of your difference there is just highly optimized code, I suspect.. the add is faster than a multiply, but not _that_ much faster afaik.
154 2013-02-26 05:17:33 <jaakkos> hum, but G is a fixed curve params?
155 2013-02-26 05:17:36 <jaakkos> -s
156 2013-02-26 05:19:07 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: basically it picks a random starting point and then tries sequential private keys.
157 2013-02-26 05:19:58 <jaakkos> so k at a time i suppose
158 2013-02-26 05:20:25 <gmaxwell> 1 at a time, it adds G.
159 2013-02-26 05:20:41 <jaakkos> ohhh of course
160 2013-02-26 05:20:45 <jaakkos> it makes perfect sense
161 2013-02-26 05:20:52 <jaakkos> man i'm so tired
162 2013-02-26 05:20:55 <jaakkos> thanks for the clarification
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174 2013-02-26 05:49:48 <amiller> k i'm nuking the misleading trades across chains wiki page
175 2013-02-26 05:49:58 <amiller> well.. just as soon as my 0.01 anti spam gets confirmed
176 2013-02-26 05:50:23 <petertodd> what's misleading about it?
177 2013-02-26 05:52:05 <Luke-Jr> isn't that impossible?
178 2013-02-26 05:52:31 <petertodd> you mean this right? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_5:_Trading_across_chains
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184 2013-02-26 06:02:02 <amiller> no it's not possible
185 2013-02-26 06:02:14 <amiller> the scheme described there has either a race condition or your funds can get frozen forever
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188 2013-02-26 06:02:33 <amiller> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91843
189 2013-02-26 06:02:39 <amiller> this was first pointed out by sergio lerner
190 2013-02-26 06:03:15 <amiller> he also suggested a different way of doing it but it would require major changes to bitcoin where you could effectively encode the validation rules for an altchain into the tx script of a bitcoin
191 2013-02-26 06:03:17 MobPhone has quit (Quit: -a-)
192 2013-02-26 06:03:23 <amiller> which is a good idea but we're no where near that yet
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194 2013-02-26 06:06:26 <petertodd> Seems to me the main issue is just dependence on transaction replacement, which isn't a very good idea period.
195 2013-02-26 06:06:57 <petertodd> Lots of stuff on the page is subject to that flaw
196 2013-02-26 06:08:48 <amiller> i don't know what you mean
197 2013-02-26 06:08:59 <amiller> elaborate on "dependence on transaction replacement?"
198 2013-02-26 06:09:15 <petertodd> I was also thinking about a potential "time lock" and "txout lock" opcode, where you could limit a scriptPubKey to being spent by a transaction with a given set of txouts, and limited to being spent after a given amount of time, while still being confirmed in chain.
199 2013-02-26 06:09:53 <petertodd> Oh, yeah, no it's not tx replacement, re-read sergio again.
200 2013-02-26 06:11:36 <amiller> the way i see it is that any reasonable view of bitcoin's future needs to include potentially more useful scripts
201 2013-02-26 06:11:38 <petertodd> Hmm... could the two parties come up with the secret together, and then lock both transactions with the same "key" if you will.
202 2013-02-26 06:11:45 <amiller> and an important thing to do is to be able to encode validation rules for alt chains in scripts
203 2013-02-26 06:11:55 <petertodd> amiller: Speaking of, did you see my post to bitcoin-dev tonight?
204 2013-02-26 06:12:02 <amiller> in fact i'm pretty sure that a minimum prerequisite for safe interaction between chains
205 2013-02-26 06:12:15 <amiller> which is sort of a holy grail for seeing how the future of multiple copmeting bitcoinish chains might work
206 2013-02-26 06:12:33 <amiller> and a good justification for thinking about this is the fact that cross-chain trades don't work otherwise
207 2013-02-26 06:12:48 <amiller> and that's why this wiki page bugs me because it misleadingly suggests you can do it all just with the current setup
208 2013-02-26 06:12:58 <petertodd> Yeah, of course, what's the point of different chains if the technology under them is the same?
209 2013-02-26 06:13:09 <petertodd> It doesn't really gain you any scaling improvements.
210 2013-02-26 06:13:12 <amiller> yes it can
211 2013-02-26 06:13:28 <amiller> it's just sort of a requirement of distributed systems and spacetime
212 2013-02-26 06:13:38 <amiller> it's inconceivable that there will only be one important chain and it would be global
213 2013-02-26 06:13:59 <petertodd> Fair enough if you assume local chains, but multiple global chains is crazy.
214 2013-02-26 06:14:01 <amiller> on the other hand it's really plausible that there will always be a biggest most universal chain and that could be bitcoin
215 2013-02-26 06:14:09 <petertodd> (like many big block discussions on the forums...)
216 2013-02-26 06:14:17 <amiller> yeah well those are a fad
217 2013-02-26 06:14:22 <amiller> just wait till they start getting fussy about timing
218 2013-02-26 06:14:29 <petertodd> There *will* be a separate Mars chain. (and I'll go there myself to start it)
219 2013-02-26 06:14:37 <amiller> good i am glad you are on the same page as me regarding space bitcoin
220 2013-02-26 06:14:43 <petertodd> Ha
221 2013-02-26 06:15:14 <amiller> it's not just a silly fantasy it's a pretty crucial thought experiment concept for learning how to cope with latency
222 2013-02-26 06:15:21 <amiller> anyway
223 2013-02-26 06:15:23 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: think universal scaling
224 2013-02-26 06:15:33 <petertodd> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=30531383 <- but here, read this, basically a semi-trusted ledger system, based on fraud proofs
225 2013-02-26 06:15:36 <Luke-Jr> oh, you did already..
226 2013-02-26 06:15:49 <amiller> no petertodd i'll read your post right now tho
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228 2013-02-26 06:16:50 <petertodd> A lot of my coworkers are not just space nuts, they've built satallites and the like. My favorite document ever I found on the laser printer was "The effects of air pollution due to lunar colonies"
229 2013-02-26 06:17:08 <petertodd> (literally, air leaking from the colonies messing up telescopes and giant particle acellerators)
230 2013-02-26 06:17:33 <brendyn> ahoy, I was wondering: roughly, if a human were to use pen and paper to search continuously for new blocks, how long on average would it take to generate one?
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232 2013-02-26 06:18:10 <amiller> petertodd, this is really ineresting
233 2013-02-26 06:18:25 <amiller> it's a lot like several ideas i've rambled about here (but not written up to posted) about offering insurance
234 2013-02-26 06:18:32 <amiller> the closest thing we have to this is green addresses, you know how those work/
235 2013-02-26 06:18:47 <amiller> there's currently no way to post an automatically redeemable bond for green address violation
236 2013-02-26 06:18:50 <petertodd> brendyn: My favorite unit of computational capacity is the "Manhattan", that is the amount of hand-computation done for the whole Manhattan nuclear bomb project. I'll bet you your average computer game uses a few thousand manhattans per day...
237 2013-02-26 06:19:26 * Luke-Jr ponders an altcoin that uses intra-chain transfers as part of its system, automatically grouping nearby nodes into their own blockchain on demand and destroying them every so often <.<
238 2013-02-26 06:19:29 <petertodd> amiller: Yes, I was really blown away when I realized if the scripting system had been better from the start, it probably wouldn't have even needed any changes to do this.
239 2013-02-26 06:19:42 <amiller> there's some major problems about the cost of validation
240 2013-02-26 06:19:48 <amiller> if you add any more power to the validation system
241 2013-02-26 06:19:55 <amiller> roconnor is the guru who understands this the best
242 2013-02-26 06:20:07 <amiller> the last time bitcoin was about to adopt a more powerful script code it was nearly a disaster and this guy helped avert it
243 2013-02-26 06:20:13 <petertodd> I think I didn't write quite enough detail on the bonds though, I forgot to write about circumstances when they'd go back to the buyer and the like. For instance, just have a timeout, and give people time to collect them with a fraud proof, but anyway the paper is 95% there.
244 2013-02-26 06:20:20 <amiller> (i may be getting the details wrong but this is how i tell the story)
245 2013-02-26 06:20:35 <petertodd> roconnor? huh, dunno that name.
246 2013-02-26 06:20:50 <petertodd> Did you see Gavin's musings about adding ECDSA opcodes?
247 2013-02-26 06:21:25 <amiller> i dunno no
248 2013-02-26 06:21:34 <amiller> the last argument i remember was over a ridicuously benign opcode like "OP_DROP"
249 2013-02-26 06:21:36 <Luke-Jr> amiller: pfft, disaster?
250 2013-02-26 06:21:38 <amiller> serious, op drop
251 2013-02-26 06:21:40 <Luke-Jr> amiller: OP_EVAL wasn't that bad
252 2013-02-26 06:22:06 <Luke-Jr> not to mention we ended up with something worse in the end
253 2013-02-26 06:22:12 <petertodd> Basically, Gavin just worked out all the opcodes you'd want to support a in-parts CHECKSIG IIRC
254 2013-02-26 06:23:09 <petertodd> When I work out what opcodes are needed for fidelity bonded ledgers I'll make sure to add op_eval back, lol.
255 2013-02-26 06:23:22 <petertodd> It'd probably be one of the less risky parts unfortunately. :(
256 2013-02-26 06:23:23 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I don't think that will fly ;)
257 2013-02-26 06:23:34 <amiller> i think i've worked out basically what's needed for this
258 2013-02-26 06:23:44 <petertodd> amiller: Oh yeah? Got a list?
259 2013-02-26 06:23:47 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: static analysis, despite being only of theoretical use, seems to be desired
260 2013-02-26 06:23:51 <amiller> no just irc
261 2013-02-26 06:24:05 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Well, I'd hate to close off static analysis for good...
262 2013-02-26 06:24:06 <amiller> the biggest concern about the scripting language is that it might throw the verifiers for a loop
263 2013-02-26 06:24:15 <amiller> what happens if there's a script that crashes verifiers when they run it?
264 2013-02-26 06:24:31 <petertodd> Yes, utter disaster. Even just making them slow is a nightmare due to orphans.
265 2013-02-26 06:24:35 <Luke-Jr> amiller: that's why we have IsStandard for now <.<
266 2013-02-26 06:24:37 <amiller> the marginal cost of a transaction to a miner in some sense is about the worst-cost they're subject to for a false transaction
267 2013-02-26 06:24:50 <amiller> so the first thing everyone acnkowledges is no turing complete languages in the blockchain!
268 2013-02-26 06:24:53 <petertodd> Yet, because it's consensus, you have no choice but to do "is it slow?" by analysis, *not* measurement.
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270 2013-02-26 06:25:14 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: IsStandard() doesn't protect you from a miner trying to up the orphan rate for others.
271 2013-02-26 06:25:15 <amiller> but that's kind of a mess no one knows how to add a lot of general functionality without quite achieving that
272 2013-02-26 06:25:36 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: it ups the bar for attackers
273 2013-02-26 06:25:52 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: yes, script kiddies, that's not a very high bar.
274 2013-02-26 06:26:03 <amiller> so the thing is you can have your cake and it eat too - infinite computations aren't a problem as long as they make a bit of progress
275 2013-02-26 06:26:14 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: no, someone able to get enough relevance to mine a block :P
276 2013-02-26 06:26:18 <amiller> what you want to be able to do is pay to run a computation -just a little bit further-
277 2013-02-26 06:26:26 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: This is what really bothers me about Gavin and Mike: they seem to think the only attackers of Bitcoin will be non-miners.
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279 2013-02-26 06:26:39 <amiller> if you have a script that has to span multiple transactions, it just needs to be paid in increments, each time to move it a bit further
280 2013-02-26 06:27:14 <amiller> the real problem is that programs need state and you don't want to make al the validators lug around extra state just for someone's custom script
281 2013-02-26 06:27:29 <amiller> (in fact the UTXO set is already state that we have to lug around....)
282 2013-02-26 06:27:29 <petertodd> amiller: Sure, across multiple transactions that can work. But under no circumstance can you allow scripts to use up enough CPU to affect block processing time very much.
283 2013-02-26 06:27:35 <amiller> right!
284 2013-02-26 06:27:35 <amiller> so
285 2013-02-26 06:27:48 <amiller> it's easy to take at most constant-resources before you takea break
286 2013-02-26 06:28:25 <amiller> you can run a little bit of the script, save the work in a merkle tree, and include in your block and take the fee - that's all that's needed
287 2013-02-26 06:28:52 <amiller> this is the case right now because of the really restricted language
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292 2013-02-26 06:29:15 <amiller> but i'm now able to show that it could be opened up wide!
293 2013-02-26 06:29:35 <petertodd> Ha, I see where you are going with this...
294 2013-02-26 06:29:38 dvide has joined
295 2013-02-26 06:29:40 <petertodd> Clever bastard.
296 2013-02-26 06:30:04 <amiller> i've made this crazy thing that's like a merkle tree turing machine
297 2013-02-26 06:30:10 <amiller> you just turn the crank and advances
298 2013-02-26 06:30:19 <amiller> uh i'll be back later with a good illustration
299 2013-02-26 06:30:43 <amiller> but it's obviously universal and obviously safe so the only question is how to make it look practical
300 2013-02-26 06:30:54 <petertodd> Well, the question is practical for what exactly?
301 2013-02-26 06:30:57 <amiller> hm maybe i could just do this with the builtin stack language
302 2013-02-26 06:31:07 <amiller> well i dunno a good application would be cross chain transaction
303 2013-02-26 06:31:13 <amiller> you could implement all of the bitcoin validation rules in the scripting language
304 2013-02-26 06:31:33 <petertodd> So we're at "slice the bytes up" generality right?
305 2013-02-26 06:31:38 <amiller> not necessarily
306 2013-02-26 06:31:53 <amiller> uh actually i just don't know what you mean by that
307 2013-02-26 06:32:02 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
308 2013-02-26 06:32:34 andytoshi has joined
309 2013-02-26 06:33:11 <amiller> oh or colored coins
310 2013-02-26 06:33:20 <amiller> those also are something that would require everyone to lug around lots of state
311 2013-02-26 06:33:25 <gmaxwell> I would point out that the edge of envelope of computer science is not where our ultra-bit-exact suicide-pact consensus system should be operating.
312 2013-02-26 06:33:29 <petertodd> As in, I'm assuming this machine will be general purpose in a way that the current scripting system isn't at all. (all the string opcodes for instance are disabled)
313 2013-02-26 06:33:41 * amiller disclaims "RESEARCHCOIN"
314 2013-02-26 06:33:55 <amiller> this conversation is hereby labeled as experimental and maybe a littlebit fancypants
315 2013-02-26 06:33:58 <petertodd> I suggest you call it SCAMCOIN to scare people away.
316 2013-02-26 06:34:12 <gmaxwell> You guys (myself included some too) like to talk about cryptographic algorithims which have never been put into pratical useâ and we want to stuff them in the heart of a worldwide consensus system.
317 2013-02-26 06:34:22 <gmaxwell> Meanwhile we've had a hard time making software the doesn't crash.
318 2013-02-26 06:34:37 <petertodd> ...and then I go off finding good reasons to stuff that crap into the system anyway.
319 2013-02-26 06:34:38 <gmaxwell> Just saying. :P
320 2013-02-26 06:34:46 <petertodd> :P
321 2013-02-26 06:34:53 <amiller> i'll pick my battles :p
322 2013-02-26 06:34:55 <gmaxwell> SCAMCOIN would be a pretty fun altcoin.
323 2013-02-26 06:35:11 ddub7 has joined
324 2013-02-26 06:35:16 <petertodd> I wanna do Zimbabwai Coin myself, with an exponentially increasing block reward...
325 2013-02-26 06:35:19 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
326 2013-02-26 06:35:30 <gmaxwell> petertodd: some numerical issues arise.
327 2013-02-26 06:35:51 <petertodd> Pff, only for people who didn't premine a pump-n-dump.
328 2013-02-26 06:36:00 <gmaxwell> could be DARKCITYCOIN ... every couple blocks your balances are swapped with someone elses.
329 2013-02-26 06:36:06 <andytoshi> petertodd: just saw your fidelity-bond idea, very cool
330 2013-02-26 06:36:36 <petertodd> andytoshi: Thanks, I have a new one though, fidelity-bonded ledgers: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=30531383
331 2013-02-26 06:36:46 <amiller> "Clients would scan the UTXO set to ensure that no outstanding UTXO's of that special form exist before depositing funds with the ledger. "
332 2013-02-26 06:36:54 <amiller> this looks to me like where your resource costs show up
333 2013-02-26 06:36:56 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Or ring coin, that binds all into darkness.
334 2013-02-26 06:37:03 <andytoshi> petertodd: oh, that's the one i meant :P
335 2013-02-26 06:37:07 <amiller> you don't want people having to scan utxo sets and maintain more indices
336 2013-02-26 06:37:11 <gmaxwell> I don't know what that means, but it sounds like a plan.
337 2013-02-26 06:37:19 <andytoshi> the old one i still don't understand
338 2013-02-26 06:37:25 <petertodd> amiller: Yes, note how I took steps to ensure that the scriptPubKeys involved are all identical.
339 2013-02-26 06:37:40 <petertodd> amiller: Indexes suck, but at least that's the same type of indexes clients want anyway so they can track their own coins.
340 2013-02-26 06:37:53 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (away!~PiZZaMaN2@93.114.44.253|Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
341 2013-02-26 06:38:14 <petertodd> amiller: Oh, wait, you mean the fraud bits... yeah, I'm assuming small blocks and don't yet have a better idea.
342 2013-02-26 06:40:49 <amiller> hmph basically i'm just talking about making an incremental script verifier
343 2013-02-26 06:41:11 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
344 2013-02-26 06:41:18 <amiller> this would be trivial as hell to implement as just one op code myself
345 2013-02-26 06:41:49 <amiller> here's a stab at explaining it with minimal deviation from bitcoin
346 2013-02-26 06:41:51 <amiller> your scripts are stacks
347 2013-02-26 06:42:03 <amiller> when you're executing them, sometimes you need a stack too
348 2013-02-26 06:42:08 <amiller> the stacks can all be hash chains
349 2013-02-26 06:42:24 <amiller> and the opcodes never take access more than a constant amount of the stack before putting stuff back
350 2013-02-26 06:42:29 <amiller> or take more than a constant amount of time to run
351 2013-02-26 06:43:19 X-Scale has joined
352 2013-02-26 06:43:31 <amiller> if you wanted to you could advance the state machine exactly one step, but it would be more efficient to batch up as much as you're willing to pay for
353 2013-02-26 06:43:44 <amiller> it would never need to be any more difficult than validating a tx with sigs anyway
354 2013-02-26 06:43:53 <amiller> and most importantly you wouldn't need to bloat your UTXO for this
355 2013-02-26 06:44:32 <amiller> right so the point is validation should never get in a loop
356 2013-02-26 06:44:45 <amiller> so that means if your script languge supports loops, you need to let the miners 'cash out' by suspending the computation but taking a fee and putting the rest back for later
357 2013-02-26 06:44:52 sgstair has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
358 2013-02-26 06:44:58 <amiller> that just means possibly spreading a script validation out over multiple transactions
359 2013-02-26 06:45:42 <petertodd> amiller: That's really cool and all, but what's an explicit example of a transaction that could be served by this technology? Liek step-by-step example?
360 2013-02-26 06:46:28 <petertodd> amiller: (remember, I sat on fidelity-bonded banks for nearly a year because I couldn't figure out why you'd bother with all that complexity other than running mixers)
361 2013-02-26 06:47:30 sgstair has joined
362 2013-02-26 06:48:02 <amiller> uh well the main goal would be to make a bunch of things work that people assume work but don't really, colored coins mainly
363 2013-02-26 06:48:27 <gmaxwell> amiller: non-currency utxo really really need expiration
364 2013-02-26 06:48:28 <amiller> colored coins and p2p bonds are basically the main ideas that require everyone doing validation to carry around the most extra stuff
365 2013-02-26 06:48:43 <gmaxwell> if utxo end up worth less than their value, then they bloat the set forever. :(
366 2013-02-26 06:48:57 <amiller> doesn't that apply to currency utxo just as well
367 2013-02-26 06:49:08 <amiller> (eh, nvm that doesn't matter i see why you'd put it like that)
368 2013-02-26 06:49:20 <amiller> well....
369 2013-02-26 06:49:24 <amiller> i can make them self murdering right
370 2013-02-26 06:49:34 <gmaxwell> yes/no. We can discourage very tiny currency outputs with no great harm (and we already do). Currency always has some value... so..
371 2013-02-26 06:49:57 <amiller> eh nvm yeah lets just suppose these have a special flag...
372 2013-02-26 06:49:58 <gmaxwell> 100% fee spend nlocked into the future?
373 2013-02-26 06:50:10 <amiller> well you still want to let it advance
374 2013-02-26 06:50:15 <amiller> if it makes a bunch of progress but doesn't terminate
375 2013-02-26 06:50:28 <amiller> but maybe it just gets forgotten about past some point
376 2013-02-26 06:50:47 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I commented on the forums today about how colored coin/p2p bond protocols really need arbitrary values, IE the ability to add in coins to up the txout values, so that they'll be coin-dust compatible.
377 2013-02-26 06:50:52 <petertodd> *anti-coin-dust
378 2013-02-26 06:51:07 <amiller> basically people would be extract part of the fees for incremental progress
379 2013-02-26 06:51:18 <petertodd> amiller: What about colored coins doesn't work?
380 2013-02-26 06:51:30 <amiller> petertodd, they rely on everyone keeping around a large index of everyone's colored coins for validation
381 2013-02-26 06:51:56 <amiller> it's just like as if there was additional utxo bloat
382 2013-02-26 06:52:02 <amiller> of course it only affects people who care about all the colored coins
383 2013-02-26 06:52:38 <petertodd> amiller: You mean how every coin winds up in the UTXO set?
384 2013-02-26 06:53:11 <amiller> you additionally need colored-coin specific helper indexes unless you want to do ridiculous scans of your bitcoin utxo set
385 2013-02-26 06:53:49 <petertodd> amiller: Why would you need to do that? Just follow the tx's from the issuing tx.
386 2013-02-26 06:54:10 <amiller> do you mean 'scan'
387 2013-02-26 06:54:26 <petertodd> In particular, why do you need to know who ones exactly what colored coin until you want to buy or sell one, in which case the other party can issue proof that it's a valid coin.
388 2013-02-26 06:54:33 <petertodd> No, I mean follow.
389 2013-02-26 06:55:14 <petertodd> Using a txindex with txout->spending tx data, start at the tx issuing the bond, and go from there to find out who owns what. I expect not many people will actually need to do this.
390 2013-02-26 06:55:30 TradeFortress has quit (Quit: Leaving)
391 2013-02-26 06:55:53 <amiller> you need a lot more than that if you want to make sure that the color coin issuer isn't inflating his color coins
392 2013-02-26 06:55:57 <amiller> you need to look at all the tx for the color
393 2013-02-26 06:56:11 <amiller> the clients don't necessarily have to do that, but if not them, then who else has enough of an incentive to bother?
394 2013-02-26 06:56:37 <amiller> it's a little like having an extra layer of rules merge mined
395 2013-02-26 06:56:56 MobiusL has joined
396 2013-02-26 06:57:01 <petertodd> Right, then don't use a stupid system that relies on some simple color thing. Use a sane system where the issuer has a public set of all root txouts they issue, and go from there.
397 2013-02-26 06:57:08 <amiller> the only rules that are reliable are the ones that a really broad population is validating
398 2013-02-26 06:57:12 <petertodd> Like how real companies work anyway.
399 2013-02-26 06:57:27 <petertodd> After all, you have to ask the question, what exactly does *not* doing it that way solve?
400 2013-02-26 06:57:52 <amiller> that's pretty uncompelling there's all sorts of ways of frauding people otherwise
401 2013-02-26 06:58:36 <petertodd> How so? Specifically, how is that any different from the other ways of frauding people? I mean, what do these colored coins represent after all?
402 2013-02-26 06:58:51 <amiller> if not enough people are making the extra (un-compensated) effort to validate the extra layer of color rules, then it's easy to get an invalid-rules color chain to the front of the blockchain
403 2013-02-26 06:58:54 <petertodd> I've only heard things like stocks and bonds and other assets, which ultimately are human readable things.
404 2013-02-26 06:59:06 <petertodd> You can't make a rule for "I'll run my business sanely"
405 2013-02-26 07:00:06 <amiller> it's not just about sanely
406 2013-02-26 07:00:19 <amiller> suppose that the issuer outsources the management of the colored coins system to a service provider
407 2013-02-26 07:00:35 <amiller> if there's no one making the extra uncompensated effort to validate a colored coin service provider
408 2013-02-26 07:00:37 <petertodd> Answer my question first about what these colored coins represent exactly.
409 2013-02-26 07:00:54 <petertodd> Like, can I say they are a share of stock in a company?
410 2013-02-26 07:00:57 <amiller> yes
411 2013-02-26 07:01:02 <amiller> you can associate some value to them
412 2013-02-26 07:01:10 <midnightmagic> amiller: Is this the colored coins idea you're talking about? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AnkP_cVZTCMLIzw4DvsW6M8Q2JC0lIzrTLuoWu2z1BE/edit?pli=1
413 2013-02-26 07:01:11 <amiller> and it's only as good as long as people know how, are capable, and willing, to act as though they value them
414 2013-02-26 07:01:15 <petertodd> Ok, so the share entitles me to voting rights and dividend rights and so on.
415 2013-02-26 07:01:39 <petertodd> And I prove I have those rights, by showing I'm the holder of the txout that matches this special protocol.
416 2013-02-26 07:01:43 d4de_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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418 2013-02-26 07:01:53 <amiller> well they're transferable too
419 2013-02-26 07:02:02 <amiller> if you want to sell your share to someone for cash
420 2013-02-26 07:02:07 <petertodd> Yes, because they're txouts they can be transfered, simple enough.
421 2013-02-26 07:02:08 <amiller> you just have to transfer it to them!
422 2013-02-26 07:02:25 <amiller> right but now you need to be clear on what the rules are for accepting them
423 2013-02-26 07:02:28 <petertodd> The point is, so this company, they're going to have to issue financial statements, prospectuses, all kind of stuff.
424 2013-02-26 07:02:35 <amiller> if you're buying one of these from a stranger you'd have to check
425 2013-02-26 07:02:47 <petertodd> All kinds of *human readable* documents, with human readable terms and conditions.
426 2013-02-26 07:02:55 <amiller> but unless you've already been inspecting this colored coin
427 2013-02-26 07:02:58 <amiller> how do you go and validate its histoyr
428 2013-02-26 07:03:05 <amiller> do you have to start from the beginning and walk through the whole blockchain like an IBD
429 2013-02-26 07:03:12 <petertodd> Because after all, you can't write code that evaluates "I'm going to pay out 10% of my profit" outside of really constrained situations.
430 2013-02-26 07:03:46 <petertodd> So part of that human readable prospectus will include statements like "We're issuing another 1 million shares, the tx out associated is 1234abcd"
431 2013-02-26 07:04:00 <petertodd> From there, tracking ownership is simple: just prove you're txout traces back to that txout.
432 2013-02-26 07:05:03 HM has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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434 2013-02-26 07:05:36 <amiller> if it has changed hands several times
435 2013-02-26 07:05:43 <amiller> each person would have to trace it back the whole way
436 2013-02-26 07:06:00 * midnightmagic prods amiller
437 2013-02-26 07:06:30 <amiller> midnightmagic, yeah that one but i also mean to include several forum posts on related ideas
438 2013-02-26 07:06:30 <petertodd> amiller: Nothing wrong with that.
439 2013-02-26 07:06:37 <midnightmagic> k
440 2013-02-26 07:06:47 <petertodd> amiller: It's just a few hundred KiB of data even for a whole whack of moves.
441 2013-02-26 07:06:49 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
442 2013-02-26 07:06:59 <petertodd> amiller: The issuer can also refresh tx's too.
443 2013-02-26 07:07:50 <amiller> and the service provider adminstering this for the issuer needs to get cauhgt if they try to inflate the currency
444 2013-02-26 07:08:00 <amiller> but that would require everyone to check the 100kb for all the different txouts
445 2013-02-26 07:08:05 <amiller> that is a lot larger
446 2013-02-26 07:09:04 RazielZ has joined
447 2013-02-26 07:10:32 <petertodd> But how are they going to do that? They have a list of txouts that are valid. To rotate a txout to keep proofs down, just place it on a "expired, get a new txout" list and call it a day.
448 2013-02-26 07:10:53 <petertodd> Frankly given how cheap it is to store even megabytes I don't see that being an issue - high frequency traders can use other mechanisms.
449 2013-02-26 07:11:05 <petertodd> Heck, maybe fidelity-bonded ledgers... :P
450 2013-02-26 07:12:00 <amiller> what happens if someone splits a txout into as many parts as they can
451 2013-02-26 07:12:11 <amiller> i dunno if your view of how this works supports value splitting
452 2013-02-26 07:13:02 <petertodd> Value splitting isn't an issue: the txins and txouts related to the bond are marked, and you can always add more bitcoins if the value is being split too small.
453 2013-02-26 07:13:22 <petertodd> If combining again results ina huge proof, meh, that's your fault.
454 2013-02-26 07:13:33 <petertodd> Again, not going to be an issue for reasonable uses.
455 2013-02-26 07:13:52 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
456 2013-02-26 07:13:54 <petertodd> I wrote up one such system as part of fidelity bonds: https://github.com/petertodd/trustbits/blob/master/fidelitybond.md
457 2013-02-26 07:14:05 <petertodd> (see "contracts")
458 2013-02-26 07:14:19 RazielZ has joined
459 2013-02-26 07:14:31 <amiller> oh cool ok i'll look through this and get back to you with a concrete example
460 2013-02-26 07:15:01 <amiller> oh er i thought that was gonna be code of a reference impl or something just cuz of github
461 2013-02-26 07:15:12 <amiller> so dunno how concrete but i'll read this and come back with something specific
462 2013-02-26 07:15:48 <petertodd> I'm a lot more prolific when it comes to talking than coding...
463 2013-02-26 07:16:17 <petertodd> https://github.com/opentimestamps/opentimestamps-server <- this is basically the one bit of code I have actually gotten working, and please don't encourage anyone to use it...
464 2013-02-26 07:17:09 ielo has joined
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466 2013-02-26 07:20:37 <midnightmagic> petertodd: Has anyone told you about chronobit?
467 2013-02-26 07:20:50 <petertodd> Yes, over and over and over....
468 2013-02-26 07:20:54 <midnightmagic> lol
469 2013-02-26 07:21:06 <midnightmagic> Well okay then.
470 2013-02-26 07:21:07 <petertodd> It has serious problems, mainly because the P2Pool block chain is linear.
471 2013-02-26 07:21:36 <petertodd> Though Luke did tell me about a clever way to at least fix one of the problems, so at least there's that.
472 2013-02-26 07:21:49 <amiller> "5. Check that the conditions of the contract are met. For instance a bond txout must either spend a previous valid bond txout or be the creation of the bond itself."
473 2013-02-26 07:22:18 <petertodd> The P2Pool block chain can be made non-linear, that is a growable merkle tree type thing like a merkle skip list, or what I call a merkle mountain range.
474 2013-02-26 07:22:56 <midnightmagic> petertodd: What would be the incentive for progressing past the current root?
475 2013-02-26 07:23:10 <petertodd> midnightmagic: ?
476 2013-02-26 07:23:42 <midnightmagic> petertodd: I'm interested to learn more about your non-linear p2pool merkle tree idea.
477 2013-02-26 07:24:02 <petertodd> midnightmagic: Oh, not non-linear as in work, but just non-linear for authentication. Read this: https://github.com/opentimestamps/opentimestamps-server/blob/master/doc/merkle-mountain-range.md
478 2013-02-26 07:24:26 <petertodd> midnightmagic: Basically you can prove any previous point in the chain in log2(n) steps.
479 2013-02-26 07:24:35 <amiller> petertodd, you'd probably like my hash value highway post from last year
480 2013-02-26 07:24:47 <petertodd> amiller: Oh yeah?
481 2013-02-26 07:24:53 <amiller> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98986.0
482 2013-02-26 07:25:08 random_cat has joined
483 2013-02-26 07:25:13 <petertodd> amiller: Ah, nice, yeah we're solving the same problem.
484 2013-02-26 07:25:30 <amiller> right on
485 2013-02-26 07:25:47 <petertodd> amiller: Merkle mountain ranges aren't really all that novel - merkle skip lists are almost the same thing - but I think they happen to have a really nice and intuitive explanation attached.
486 2013-02-26 07:26:27 <petertodd> amiller: It's too bad the blockchain header doesn't have a total work field...
487 2013-02-26 07:28:01 <amiller> petertodd, you describe the process for SPV clients there so i understand what you're saying if you think people are only validating the colored coins they personally are interested in
488 2013-02-26 07:28:32 <petertodd> That's exactly it. The vast majority of people don't need to know who owns the outstanding assets.
489 2013-02-26 07:28:37 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
490 2013-02-26 07:28:52 <petertodd> Always design for SPV...
491 2013-02-26 07:28:57 <midnightmagic> petertodd: Chain itself remains a chain I'm assuming then? is there a txn included with subsequent shares that helps identify the structure or is it just a deterministic helper struct in-memory to help people compute stuff faster? (And why do we care except on startup?)
492 2013-02-26 07:29:05 <midnightmagic> doh, should've waited another few seconds.
493 2013-02-26 07:29:16 techlife has joined
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495 2013-02-26 07:30:03 <petertodd> Yup, for P2Pool timestamping basically the merkle mountain range just makes it possible to go from the last share in the chain up to the coinbase with only a few steps.
496 2013-02-26 07:30:20 <petertodd> With chronobit it can take hundreds or thousands of steps.
497 2013-02-26 07:30:37 <petertodd> The timestamps chronobit comes with are half a megabyte, compressed!
498 2013-02-26 07:30:41 a5m0 has joined
499 2013-02-26 07:30:49 <midnightmagic> petertodd: I was for a long time running chronobit, but.. I just got lazy and started stuffing hashes into namecoins instead.
500 2013-02-26 07:31:05 <amiller> petertodd, lets go back to the part about what happens if a proof gets too big
501 2013-02-26 07:31:09 <petertodd> Meanwhile this is a opentimestamps timestamp: https://github.com/opentimestamps/opentimestamps-server/blob/master/doc/git-timestamps/89c893e71bf0c178ca46e6ac518d0f2187a978fe.ots
502 2013-02-26 07:31:11 <gmaxwell> well, forrestv could fix that pretty cheaply if anyone cared.
503 2013-02-26 07:31:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, yeah, I'll bother him...
504 2013-02-26 07:31:50 <gmaxwell> e.g. add one extra random backpointer, skiplist style.
505 2013-02-26 07:31:54 <amiller> like suppose i have a valid smart coin, and i split it into 1000 pieces, then i recollect them into 1 big piece....
506 2013-02-26 07:31:55 <petertodd> gmaxwell: But fundementally opentimestamps is too general to disable what you want to be disabled...
507 2013-02-26 07:32:00 <amiller> and i try to sneak in one with extra value
508 2013-02-26 07:32:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: https://github.com/opentimestamps/opentimestamps-server/blob/master/doc/merkle-mountain-range.md <- very simple explanation, and deterministic, so you can prove where you are in the tree unlike merkle skiplists
509 2013-02-26 07:32:45 <petertodd> amiller: Doesn't matter, every txin gets checked in the proof,
510 2013-02-26 07:32:58 <petertodd> amiller: Basically it can go into a dag, and you walk the dag back to the root.
511 2013-02-26 07:33:10 <amiller> that's potentially really expensive with even a short number of coplicated txes
512 2013-02-26 07:33:27 <amiller> you earlier said that if it gets too bad then people would just reject it
513 2013-02-26 07:35:04 <petertodd> amiller: So, lets say we don't want more than 1MiB for our share, each tx proof is going to be say ~300 bytes for the tx itself + log2(1000tx)*32bytes + 80 bytes block header = 700bytes, so that's 1498 tx moves basically.
514 2013-02-26 07:35:20 <petertodd> amiller: As I said, high frequency traders can do their own thing.
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516 2013-02-26 07:35:52 <amiller> so that's two big split/merge transactions
517 2013-02-26 07:36:08 <amiller> if they're like 1000 each or something
518 2013-02-26 07:36:17 <petertodd> Basically, which is why if you split a tx, you should do it in a binary tree.
519 2013-02-26 07:36:49 <petertodd> Merging, well, don't do it...
520 2013-02-26 07:36:58 <petertodd> (at least without getting re-issued shared)
521 2013-02-26 07:37:02 <amiller> the potentially to create a technically-valid but really-implausible-to-check transaction is really high
522 2013-02-26 07:37:14 <petertodd> So? Don't do that.
523 2013-02-26 07:37:19 <amiller> also if the issuer is in the business of constantly reissuing shares its easy to cheat that way
524 2013-02-26 07:37:29 <petertodd> This isn't like Bitcoin, we can afford to tell people who do stupid things to fuck off.
525 2013-02-26 07:37:48 <petertodd> Splitting your shares into a million peices is no different from leaving your share certificates in the rain.
526 2013-02-26 07:38:37 <amiller> it's going to be easy to fraud and counterfeit these things, it's not about whether it's in an individual's best interest to do this
527 2013-02-26 07:39:06 <amiller> my point is how a few malicious people could ruin it for the bunch
528 2013-02-26 07:39:27 <amiller> but i think you're also saying that these don't need particularly strict enforcement because there's honor among shareholders
529 2013-02-26 07:39:37 <petertodd> How are they ruining it for anyone but themselves? They can only screw up shares that they own.
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531 2013-02-26 07:39:47 <amiller> no because since there's no firm cutoff
532 2013-02-26 07:39:52 <amiller> people can accept technically valid transactions
533 2013-02-26 07:40:06 <petertodd> The issue can make simply say that shares with proofs longer than 1MiB are invalid and must be re-issued.
534 2013-02-26 07:40:33 <petertodd> Your software can tell how big the share proof is, and tell the user the proof is invalid and the other party might as well not own the shares.
535 2013-02-26 07:40:35 <amiller> and now the issuer's service-provider has an avenue of doing this a lot and sneaking in inflation without being likely to get caught
536 2013-02-26 07:40:48 <gmaxwell> I'm wonder if we shouldn't make a #bitcoin-wizards and move the stuff that is two steps removed from the current system there? I feel bad flooding this channel.
537 2013-02-26 07:41:02 <petertodd> How are they not going to get caught? Shares that have been abused that way just don't exist, other than for some auditors?
538 2013-02-26 07:41:10 fishfish has joined
539 2013-02-26 07:41:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: lol
540 2013-02-26 07:41:15 <amiller> it's late (hopefuly) we'd shut up if there were the important work being done :p
541 2013-02-26 07:41:20 <gmaxwell> We're actually a transparency problem, since $jrandomuser ought to be reading this channel to discover the latest plans to break the system. :P
542 2013-02-26 07:41:35 <gmaxwell> amiller: yes, we're usually good, but it's still a cost for ^
543 2013-02-26 07:41:36 <amiller> this is fuss about coloredcoins anyway
544 2013-02-26 07:41:41 <petertodd> gmaxwell: "ought to"? :P
545 2013-02-26 07:42:36 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Meh, this channel is reasonable low traffic at night... er, other than you, myself, amiller and...
546 2013-02-26 07:42:58 <amiller> petertodd, you only have mentioned self-centered SPV clients so far
547 2013-02-26 07:43:07 <amiller> petertodd, is there an 'auditors' part of the protocol?
548 2013-02-26 07:43:19 <amiller> for people who are going to watch all the coins or all the coins associated with some issuer?
549 2013-02-26 07:44:01 <petertodd> amiller: Well, if a bunch of messed up shares get *re-issued*, someone should audit that the financial statements saying why they got re-issued are actually valid, so someone will have to waste some CPU power processing a few MiB of stupidly long proofs, but that's a minor issue I think.
550 2013-02-26 07:44:25 <petertodd> amiller: After all, if *any* shares get re-issued, you want the financial statements to have a link to the proofs that that happened.
551 2013-02-26 07:44:43 <petertodd> amiller: You also need a way to clearly made a txout not part of the issue, but my fidelity bond contract protocol does that.
552 2013-02-26 07:44:51 <Diablo-D3> hey gmaxwell
553 2013-02-26 07:45:00 <Diablo-D3> its been, what, 24 hours since I closed the port?
554 2013-02-26 07:45:07 <Diablo-D3> still have 12 connections, down from 23
555 2013-02-26 07:45:15 <Diablo-D3> everything is nice and lag free again
556 2013-02-26 07:45:37 <Diablo-D3> and Im also around the number of connections I used to have before bitcoin made it big
557 2013-02-26 07:46:29 <Diablo-D3> its not perfect, mind you
558 2013-02-26 07:46:37 <Diablo-D3> it'll probably be perfect when it reaches 8
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634 2013-02-26 12:32:14 <peres_> hello guys
635 2013-02-26 12:32:41 <peres_> i would like to know if the bitcoin java implementation is currently stable
636 2013-02-26 12:33:10 <peres_> is there anyone involved in that project?
637 2013-02-26 12:33:45 <Luke-Jr> peres_: if you stick around, TD (Mike Hearn) will show up sooner or later
638 2013-02-26 12:34:14 <Luke-Jr> besides him, I think BlueMatt has dabbled in it a bit
639 2013-02-26 12:34:51 <sipa> peres_: BitcoinJ is the basis for Multibit and Bitcoin Wallet for Android, as an SPV implementation, it's probably the most mature one
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649 2013-02-26 13:04:20 denisx has joined
650 2013-02-26 13:06:07 <HM> hmm
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656 2013-02-26 13:26:02 <reeep> hmmmmmmm
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660 2013-02-26 13:34:17 <HM> unless I'm groking the code incorrectly (likely) Bitcoin for Android doesn't encrypt your wallet keys unless you export / import to sdcard?
661 2013-02-26 13:39:45 <HM> also the serialised export is just an ECKey dump encrypted in CBC mode
662 2013-02-26 13:41:21 <HM> there's no MAC so it might be possible to corrupt peoples keys and then have them use them by mistake, although i think the native bitcoin checksum would kill off that problem
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664 2013-02-26 13:43:43 <HM> maybe Javas serialisation as well
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693 2013-02-26 15:14:02 <helo> i think it is stored in an encrypted container by android
694 2013-02-26 15:14:32 <helo> HM: ^
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696 2013-02-26 15:20:01 <HM> ah ok
697 2013-02-26 15:21:16 <HM> i'm not sure how that'd work, full /data encryption is an option and uses your screen lock password
698 2013-02-26 15:21:43 <helo> something like .asec/ directory
699 2013-02-26 15:21:53 <Diablo-D3> HM: android offers encrypted storage
700 2013-02-26 15:22:03 <Diablo-D3> however, you're better off just encrypting everything
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703 2013-02-26 15:29:36 <HM> Diablo-D3: the README file says it uses MODE_PRIVATE
704 2013-02-26 15:29:45 <HM> which is basically like a unix file mode
705 2013-02-26 15:29:53 <HM> there's no mention of encryption for the primary wallet store
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710 2013-02-26 15:34:45 <Diablo-D3> HM: you should have android devices encrypted at all times anyhow
711 2013-02-26 15:34:56 <HM> I know, i do
712 2013-02-26 15:35:23 <HM> my point is, relying solely on filesystem permissions probably isn't a good idea. especially when it has a password UI for export and import already
713 2013-02-26 15:39:52 <Diablo-D3> HM: well, I know android offers encrypted shit for that
714 2013-02-26 15:40:01 <Diablo-D3> but it doesnt mean the client is using it
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718 2013-02-26 15:44:34 <HM> Diablo-D3: there's an "openssl enc" compatible encryption class in there
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722 2013-02-26 15:53:15 <helo> there would be for just ecdsa
723 2013-02-26 15:53:31 <helo> (signing transactions)
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725 2013-02-26 15:55:39 <HM> helo: ?
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727 2013-02-26 16:06:03 <peres_> Luke-Jr_ and sipa: thank you
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729 2013-02-26 16:18:53 <TD> HM: this is about Goonies app?
730 2013-02-26 16:19:27 <TD> HM: jim has written some support for proper encrypted wallets. i think Goonie plans to use that when it's merged, if the user wants it.
731 2013-02-26 16:19:48 <TD> HM: of course for the amounts of value most users carry around in their phones, encryption is often not going to be worth it
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739 2013-02-26 16:39:53 <HM> TD: Andreas Schildbach's "Bitcoin for Android" - sorry I'm not familiar with all the real world <> alias mappings yet
740 2013-02-26 16:40:07 <TD> yeah andreas is goonie and i'm mike hearn
741 2013-02-26 16:40:14 <TD> HM: what are you proposing exactly?
742 2013-02-26 16:40:17 <HM> greetings :P
743 2013-02-26 16:40:18 <TD> HM: that the wallet is always encrypted?
744 2013-02-26 16:40:26 <HM> yep, pretty much
745 2013-02-26 16:40:31 <HM> at least as an option
746 2013-02-26 16:40:31 <TD> and where is the key?
747 2013-02-26 16:40:54 <HM> password, much like textsecure keeps your text messages encrypted
748 2013-02-26 16:41:15 <HM> it seems the functionality is already basically there anyway for backups
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750 2013-02-26 16:42:18 <HM> I'm wondering right now whether a backup of your phone could be grep'd for wallet privkeys
751 2013-02-26 16:42:54 <TD> Android already offers all that functionality built in
752 2013-02-26 16:43:10 <TD> app-level protection would be redundant.
753 2013-02-26 16:43:18 <TD> (for the whole file)
754 2013-02-26 16:43:43 <TD> encrypting just private key bytes is a bit more flexibility because you can encrypt just private key bytes, and then not have the hassle of an encrypted phone, but spending still requires a password
755 2013-02-26 16:44:13 balrog has joined
756 2013-02-26 16:44:18 <TD> though honestly, i think for most users, encrypting their phones storage is the right thing to do. it can also encrypt desktop / cloud backups, iirc.
757 2013-02-26 16:44:59 <HM> this is true but filesystem/block encryption is unlocked
758 2013-02-26 16:45:08 <HM> at that stage anything running with sufficient permissions can read anything
759 2013-02-26 16:45:29 <HM> full phone encryption only protects you when your phone is off/unmounted
760 2013-02-26 16:45:42 <TD> apps don't have sufficient permissions to read the wallet and if there's a local root exploit, then you're out of luck anyway, the malware can do anything
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762 2013-02-26 16:47:01 <HM> i agree to a certain extent
763 2013-02-26 16:47:52 <HM> but if there's a flaw in private data protections on android, it's going to be a prime target
764 2013-02-26 16:48:06 <HM> I see no reason not to keep everything encrypted when the app is closed
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766 2013-02-26 16:50:58 <TD> under what key
767 2013-02-26 16:51:07 <TD> you can't do anything if the user doesn't explicitly provide a key
768 2013-02-26 16:51:18 <TD> and lots of users aren't going to want to do that, at least not for small amounts of value
769 2013-02-26 16:51:47 <TD> for users who DO want to keep large balances, then optional encryption makes sense, and i hope it'll be in a version coming out soon given that jim did the work to write the code.
770 2013-02-26 16:52:12 <TD> but even then, if you have malware on you system and a local root exploit, you're still out of luck if the virus knows how to intercept the password being typed in. which is quite easy.
771 2013-02-26 16:52:25 <TD> it's not worthless, but it's no panacea either
772 2013-02-26 16:56:29 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
773 2013-02-26 16:59:40 <HM> it's no panacea no, but the time window for intercepting passwords or decrypted memory is a different kettle of fish to just reading the filesystem
774 2013-02-26 17:00:28 <TD> sure
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776 2013-02-26 17:03:57 <Goonie> HM: yes, you can grep full device backups for the keys.
777 2013-02-26 17:04:10 <HM> hi :)
778 2013-02-26 17:04:25 <Goonie> And yes, private key encryption is coming.
779 2013-02-26 17:04:31 <HM> fyi, I still think your app is awesome. I'm just perusing the code
780 2013-02-26 17:05:05 <Goonie> Thanks! Sure, go ahead.
781 2013-02-26 17:05:20 <TD> great
782 2013-02-26 17:05:25 <TD> let us know if you have any more comments or even patches :)
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784 2013-02-26 17:06:32 <HM> i actually bought a spanky new Nexus4 a few weeks back, i've been using the 2008 G1 for since then
785 2013-02-26 17:06:43 <HM> it's a bit of a revelation.
786 2013-02-26 17:06:46 <Goonie> oh, wow
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788 2013-02-26 17:06:57 <TD> a G1?
789 2013-02-26 17:07:02 <TD> wow
790 2013-02-26 17:07:07 * TD fondly remembers his G1
791 2013-02-26 17:07:15 <TD> that must have been quite boring these days though. i bet no apps run on it anymore.
792 2013-02-26 17:07:24 <HM> It's a brick, but i resisted buying a new phone because I wanted a physical keyboard
793 2013-02-26 17:07:25 <TD> even I don't have a Nexus 4 yet and I work for the makers :(
794 2013-02-26 17:07:28 <TD> ah
795 2013-02-26 17:07:46 <TD> yeah unfortunately manufacturers don't seem to care about them anymore. the good news is the software keys are getting so good now, it's not a big deal
796 2013-02-26 17:07:49 <HM> actually there are ports of Jelly Bean to the G1 ...
797 2013-02-26 17:08:14 <TD> i'm using the latest android keyboard (not sure it's released yet) and it's everything i'd want in a soft keyboard. very fast to swype/type with it
798 2013-02-26 17:08:33 <HM> yeah the built in JB swipe keyboard isn't bad... I've heard good things about Swype and Swiftkey but haven't bothered to investigate yet
799 2013-02-26 17:09:10 <Goonie> Some weeks ago I was staring to use the swipe-style typing on jelly bean. For normal language messages, it's a revelation! I never want a physical keyboard again for a phone-sizes device
800 2013-02-26 17:09:48 <HM> I find it a bit frustrating, especialy in landscape mode
801 2013-02-26 17:10:01 <HM> in portrait it's not bad at all
802 2013-02-26 17:10:21 <HM> unfortunately, a lot of the good hard keyboards are US only.
803 2013-02-26 17:11:04 <Goonie> I wonder how Bitcoin Wallet runs on the BlackBerry Q10...
804 2013-02-26 17:11:18 <helo> i miss the g1 keyboard
805 2013-02-26 17:11:42 <HM> it's kind of crazy that phones like the N4 are shipping without SD slots as well
806 2013-02-26 17:12:18 <HM> so mixed thoughts buying it, ultimately decided to go for it because you're guaranteed updates
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808 2013-02-26 17:15:12 <TD> at least for a while
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810 2013-02-26 17:15:34 <TD> though now the transition to fully accelerated graphics is done, it's hard to imagine there'll be any more cliff-edges like with previous android upgrades
811 2013-02-26 17:15:43 <TD> so hopefully the current generation of phones can receive updates for a long time
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814 2013-02-26 17:16:50 <Goonie> TD: the question is now that google sells hardware, do they have any incentive to support their phones longer than "the usual" period of 2 years?
815 2013-02-26 17:17:04 <HM> i hope so, although i think there's more to it than just software. I know people running the same Android versions but apps crash on one and not the other, it's suspicious
816 2013-02-26 17:17:36 <TD> i really doubt we make any significant profit on the hardware especially not as cheap as the N4 is
817 2013-02-26 17:18:45 <HM> I love the way they're touring the hardware vendors
818 2013-02-26 17:18:58 <HM> partnering with a different manufacturer for each generation
819 2013-02-26 17:19:31 <TD> spreading the love
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821 2013-02-26 17:20:21 <HM> Anything to upset the contract market is good in my view
822 2013-02-26 17:20:26 <BlueMatt> except motorola...
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829 2013-02-26 17:28:07 <TD> i wonder how many bits are going to be needed to represent total cumulative work in future
830 2013-02-26 17:29:28 * sipa hopes less than 128
831 2013-02-26 17:29:55 <TD> i'm wondering if i can get away with 96
832 2013-02-26 17:30:21 MC1984 has joined
833 2013-02-26 17:31:52 <HM> what are we up to now?
834 2013-02-26 17:32:00 <sipa> assume the world upgrades 25 TH/s (assumed to be GPUs now) into ASICs consuming the same amount of power (with the efficiency claimed by BFL), we'd get around 12 PH/s
835 2013-02-26 17:32:14 <TD> in may 2011 it took about 64 bits, according to a comment i made a long time ago
836 2013-02-26 17:32:31 <sipa> that's 78 bits worth of cumulative work every year
837 2013-02-26 17:33:18 <sipa> so still some 2000 centuries before we hit 96 bits
838 2013-02-26 17:33:35 <sipa> of course, neither hardware deployment nor efficiency can be assumed to be constant...
839 2013-02-26 17:33:51 <TD> i'll take 2000 centuries
840 2013-02-26 17:33:57 * TD feels like the king with the rice board
841 2013-02-26 17:34:00 <HM> does that assume some moors lawesque growth factor?
842 2013-02-26 17:34:16 <sipa> HM: yes, it assumes a growth factor of 1.0 every 18 months :p
843 2013-02-26 17:34:58 FredEE has joined
844 2013-02-26 17:36:17 <HM> and this is ground out of a 256bit hash
845 2013-02-26 17:39:38 <sipa> with a doubling every 2 years, it'd only take 32 years to hit 96 bits
846 2013-02-26 17:40:08 <sipa> (after reaching 12 PH/s)
847 2013-02-26 17:40:42 <HM> i'd just go with 128 bits.
848 2013-02-26 17:41:23 <HM> or the # of bits that ensures I'll be dead before someone comes looking for the developer who made the decision :P
849 2013-02-26 17:41:36 <sipa> 96 years
850 2013-02-26 17:41:38 <sipa> seems good
851 2013-02-26 17:42:23 <TD> i want the whole structure to fit into 128 bytes
852 2013-02-26 17:42:32 <HM> "New life extending technology developed brings about 200 year lifespans. Bitcoin developers honoured with free lifespan upgrades"
853 2013-02-26 17:42:46 <HM> :P
854 2013-02-26 17:47:26 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"])
855 2013-02-26 17:50:45 <sipa> TD: with 256 you can be sure - if not, someone somewhere will have had a realistic chance of finding any given preimage on double-SHA256
856 2013-02-26 17:50:59 <sipa> well, not someone somewhere - everyone everywhere combined
857 2013-02-26 17:52:19 <Goonie> HM: I'm sure someone will clone you if it becomes necessary (-:
858 2013-02-26 17:55:32 <jaakkos> given an ECDSA private key d and public key Q, is it possible to tell if they are a pair (Q = dG), without computing a point multiply? what if you also get a message with signature (r,s) made with the private key that _really_ corresponds to Q?
859 2013-02-26 17:58:52 <jaakkos> one could compute a guess for the signature's secret k = (msg + r*d_guess)/s but then one needs to test if r = xcoord(kG), again requiring a point multiply
860 2013-02-26 17:58:59 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
861 2013-02-26 17:59:59 <HM> jaakkos: you can extract Q from (r,s) if that helps
862 2013-02-26 18:00:05 discrete has joined
863 2013-02-26 18:00:18 <sipa> HM: no, you can extract Q from (m,(r,s))
864 2013-02-26 18:00:36 <HM> jaakkos: you can extract better knowledge from sipa, if that helps :}
865 2013-02-26 18:00:46 <jaakkos> we know Q though, but interesting still
866 2013-02-26 18:02:45 robocoin has joined
867 2013-02-26 18:03:23 <HM> jaakkos: what's your objective?
868 2013-02-26 18:04:07 <jaakkos> if that's possible, you can crack password-based wallets an order of magnitude faster
869 2013-02-26 18:05:49 * HM shrugs
870 2013-02-26 18:06:37 <jaakkos> it's just a random thought.
871 2013-02-26 18:06:47 cik0 has joined
872 2013-02-26 18:06:55 <cik0> hello
873 2013-02-26 18:08:29 cik0 has quit (Client Quit)
874 2013-02-26 18:08:39 cik0 has joined
875 2013-02-26 18:08:43 cik0 has quit (Client Quit)
876 2013-02-26 18:09:30 <HM> jaakkos: DSA isn't my favourite thing
877 2013-02-26 18:10:42 <HM> jaakkos: reusing 'r' in DSA means your private key is compromised. in traditional MAC, if you reuse a salt, it only allows message replay
878 2013-02-26 18:11:12 <jaakkos> if you refer to the PS3 hack (...and else), they reused k
879 2013-02-26 18:11:25 <sipa> jaakkos: there actually is a much more easy way to crack encrypted wallet.dat files - one that's a bug in the sense that it wasn't intended
880 2013-02-26 18:12:12 <jaakkos> sipa: i'm considering the offline attack against transactions in block chain
881 2013-02-26 18:12:31 <jaakkos> HM: ok but you are saying the same thing
882 2013-02-26 18:12:35 <jaakkos> HM: of course. because r = kG.
883 2013-02-26 18:12:45 <HM> right yeah
884 2013-02-26 18:13:01 <HM> silly cryptographers would assign the random integer in the scheme 'k' and 'r' to something else wouldn't they
885 2013-02-26 18:13:37 <jaakkos> :)
886 2013-02-26 18:14:35 <TD> Goonie: how do you use eclipse with bitcoinj? i'm trying to figure out the easiest method. right now i added the tools jar to the classpath but that is obviously wrong
887 2013-02-26 18:14:36 <jaakkos> i got the idea from vanitygen - i started thinking if it's possible to test passwords at the same speed
888 2013-02-26 18:15:00 <BlueMatt> TD: there is a maven command for creating eclipse project definitions
889 2013-02-26 18:15:08 <TD> the eclipse that comes with the android sdk doesn't seem to understand maven
890 2013-02-26 18:15:08 <TD> ah
891 2013-02-26 18:15:15 <TD> maybe that's why
892 2013-02-26 18:15:19 <jaakkos> vanitygen avoids the multiply by generating Q1 = dG, then Q2 = Q1 + G, Q3 = Q2 + G, ... but the scanerio is totally different
893 2013-02-26 18:15:22 <BlueMatt> TD: I remember having problems, but nothing too significant that wasnt resolvable within a few minutes
894 2013-02-26 18:15:25 * TD wishes jetbrains would update idea to the latest android sdk
895 2013-02-26 18:15:32 <TD> BlueMatt: well i got it working before and now it doesn't see my update
896 2013-02-26 18:15:42 discrete has quit ()
897 2013-02-26 18:16:31 <BlueMatt> TD: "the eclipse that comes with android sdk" <-- isnt that standard eclipse with an android plugin?
898 2013-02-26 18:16:37 <TD> i guess so
899 2013-02-26 18:18:06 <TD> piece of crap. i wonder how to make it realize a jar has changed
900 2013-02-26 18:18:17 ielo has joined
901 2013-02-26 18:21:11 <HM> I'm hoping to play with the Android NDK soon
902 2013-02-26 18:21:18 _W_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
903 2013-02-26 18:22:49 <BlueMatt> HM: implement an optimized ecdsa verification engine please
904 2013-02-26 18:22:52 <BlueMatt> and signing, I suppse
905 2013-02-26 18:23:02 <BlueMatt> :)
906 2013-02-26 18:25:41 eipeace_ is now known as WeLoveCP
907 2013-02-26 18:26:37 davout has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
908 2013-02-26 18:27:43 discrete has joined
909 2013-02-26 18:27:47 <HM> BlueMatt: sure but it's going to return random numbers selected by a dice at the time of coding :P
910 2013-02-26 18:28:13 <BlueMatt> HM: lol, somewhat like debian's openssl random function?
911 2013-02-26 18:30:09 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas you should add: give scripts a way to control what transactions they can input to
912 2013-02-26 18:30:43 <andytoshi> even just putting a hash on the stack before running scriptSig would allow, e.g., coins which coin only be sent to certain addresses
913 2013-02-26 18:31:30 <andytoshi> s/coins which coin/coins which can
914 2013-02-26 18:32:00 peres_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
915 2013-02-26 18:35:28 Hashdog has joined
916 2013-02-26 18:36:10 <HM> BlueMatt: at least it avoided any patents on RNG algo's :P truly free software
917 2013-02-26 18:36:13 <Goonie> TD: just use "mvn eclipse:eclipse" and then in Eclipse Import -> Existing Projects into Workspace
918 2013-02-26 18:36:28 <BlueMatt> HM: that is a good point, never thought about it that way
919 2013-02-26 18:36:39 <Goonie> its harder for Android projects though, because Google really messed it up
920 2013-02-26 18:37:18 <TD> hmm
921 2013-02-26 18:37:20 Guest4573 has joined
922 2013-02-26 18:37:23 <TD> my cunning plan has been foiled
923 2013-02-26 18:37:29 <TD> ByteBuffer.get is incredibly fucking slow on dalvik
924 2013-02-26 18:37:35 <HM> if only there was only 1 way to create a bad RNG, then you could patent it and sue everyone who used it
925 2013-02-26 18:37:40 <TD> i really wonder how they managed that
926 2013-02-26 18:38:00 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
927 2013-02-26 18:38:32 <TD> gah
928 2013-02-26 18:39:03 coolfengyu has joined
929 2013-02-26 18:42:38 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
930 2013-02-26 18:47:15 Guest4573 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
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935 2013-02-26 19:05:41 fagmuffinz has joined
936 2013-02-26 19:06:05 <fagmuffinz> Is this IRC just protocol discussion?
937 2013-02-26 19:06:42 <HM> fagmuffinz: nah, general dev discussion
938 2013-02-26 19:07:13 <HM> if not, i'm a serial offender
939 2013-02-26 19:09:05 <fagmuffinz> Lol
940 2013-02-26 19:09:05 <fagmuffinz> K
941 2013-02-26 19:09:19 <fagmuffinz> I really wish NVIDIA cards didn't suck ass at mining
942 2013-02-26 19:09:24 <fagmuffinz> If they just had vector support =/
943 2013-02-26 19:09:49 <fagmuffinz> Also, what cgminer github should I use?
944 2013-02-26 19:10:38 <sipa> compared to anything FPGA/ASIC-like, all GPUs suck, so no need to hate NVIDIA anymore :)
945 2013-02-26 19:10:50 btcven has joined
946 2013-02-26 19:11:03 <fagmuffinz> Yea, I've got a Jalapeno coming
947 2013-02-26 19:11:05 <_dr> fagmuffinz: what's vector?
948 2013-02-26 19:11:28 <fagmuffinz> I'm refererring to specific data types available to ATI cards
949 2013-02-26 19:11:32 <fagmuffinz> You have float/int
950 2013-02-26 19:11:38 <fagmuffinz> Then float2/int2 and float4/int4
951 2013-02-26 19:11:48 <fagmuffinz> ATI lets you do SIMD per core, while NVIDIA doesn't
952 2013-02-26 19:11:58 <fagmuffinz> So you can pump 2/4x more data through per cycle
953 2013-02-26 19:12:22 <_dr> simd per core? a nvidia thread processor is a simd-unit.
954 2013-02-26 19:12:29 meLon has quit (Quit: leaving)
955 2013-02-26 19:12:29 <fagmuffinz> NVIDIA figured doing SIMD per core was dumb I guess, and being a GPU programmer, I'd generally agree
956 2013-02-26 19:12:34 <fagmuffinz> Except when it comes to this kinda shit
957 2013-02-26 19:12:50 <fagmuffinz> I know...
958 2013-02-26 19:13:06 btcven has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
959 2013-02-26 19:13:08 <fagmuffinz> You can do 2/4 vectors in one cycle per core on ATI
960 2013-02-26 19:13:08 <_dr> what does ati do differently? does one shader have a vector register for ints?
961 2013-02-26 19:13:36 <fagmuffinz> Each core on an ATI card will let you calculate with 2/4 data at a time
962 2013-02-26 19:13:38 <fagmuffinz> Instead of just 1
963 2013-02-26 19:13:44 <fagmuffinz> Per instruction
964 2013-02-26 19:13:55 <fagmuffinz> Then multiply that by the number of cores
965 2013-02-26 19:14:15 <_dr> never dealt with ati/opencl before; i just do cuda, maybe i should have a peak at ati's hardware design
966 2013-02-26 19:14:16 <fagmuffinz> If you have an ATI card and NVIDIA card with a similar number of cores, ATI with throughput 2-4x
967 2013-02-26 19:14:30 <_dr> fagmuffinz: but only when it comes to int, right?
968 2013-02-26 19:14:32 <fagmuffinz> Yea, I did CUDA programming all summer, it was sufficient for my needs
969 2013-02-26 19:14:40 <fagmuffinz> They may do float?
970 2013-02-26 19:14:41 <fagmuffinz> Not sure
971 2013-02-26 19:14:56 <fagmuffinz> I know they do int, int would be easier hardware wise
972 2013-02-26 19:15:03 <fagmuffinz> Less space to do SIMD in the ALU than the FPU
973 2013-02-26 19:15:15 <_dr> i agree
974 2013-02-26 19:15:32 <fagmuffinz> I'm CS and MA, but I know so much fucking EE
975 2013-02-26 19:15:46 <fagmuffinz> I'm about to layout the opencl code for podclm or whatever it's called
976 2013-02-26 19:15:50 <fagmuffinz> It's the fastest one
977 2013-02-26 19:16:00 <fagmuffinz> I'm expecting a 20% efficiency increase
978 2013-02-26 19:16:04 <fagmuffinz> Since there's no register spilling
979 2013-02-26 19:16:20 <fagmuffinz> I'm a little horrified no one did this already tbh
980 2013-02-26 19:16:31 bonks has joined
981 2013-02-26 19:22:32 Dyaheon has quit ()
982 2013-02-26 19:23:31 Dyaheon has joined
983 2013-02-26 19:24:27 _W_ has joined
984 2013-02-26 19:29:50 <fagmuffinz> Is cgminer still the best (one of the best) miners?
985 2013-02-26 19:30:09 <fagmuffinz> I've heard about bfgminer but haven't checked it out
986 2013-02-26 19:31:18 <fagmuffinz> @_dr http://www.microway.com/pdfs/GPGPU_Architecture_and_Performance_Comparison.pdf
987 2013-02-26 19:31:27 CodeShark has joined
988 2013-02-26 19:39:06 <HM> got to love unix sometimes
989 2013-02-26 19:39:24 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
990 2013-02-26 19:39:27 <HM> "If name is invalid, -1 is returned, and errno is set to EINVAL".... blah blah blah blah blah.... "In the case of limits, -1 means that there is no definite limit"
991 2013-02-26 19:39:43 <HM> why couldn't they just write...check errno
992 2013-02-26 19:40:55 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: I haven't because if outputs are seperately stored (e.g. in a utxo set) then I don't know how to make them interact. I'm trying to list only things I know how to build.
993 2013-02-26 19:41:24 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: e.g. I could make an output value go downâ but only by making the funds go to fees.
994 2013-02-26 19:44:12 slush has quit (Excess Flood)
995 2013-02-26 19:44:52 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
996 2013-02-26 19:45:05 slush has joined
997 2013-02-26 19:48:03 freakazoid has joined
998 2013-02-26 19:52:24 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: what is a utxo set?
999 2013-02-26 19:52:33 <sipa> unspent transaction output set
1000 2013-02-26 19:56:21 <andytoshi> ok, what does "outputs are seperately stored" mean then? doesn't a transaction consist of a input set + output set?
1001 2013-02-26 19:56:52 owowo has joined
1002 2013-02-26 19:57:00 <andytoshi> i guess, i don't understand what gmaxwell said, but i don't know why because i think i know all the words :P
1003 2013-02-26 19:58:36 <midnightmagic> I think there's a new nvidia card w/ 1tflop dp? Where did I see that now..
1004 2013-02-26 19:58:38 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: You have a database. It has seperate records for each output (each is a seperate spendable coin). If the value of one record changes based on how another was spent (and when its spend its totally removed from the database) then .. thats complicated.
1005 2013-02-26 19:59:21 ovidiusoft has joined
1006 2013-02-26 20:05:08 <_dr> fagmuffinz: nice comparison, thanks
1007 2013-02-26 20:06:28 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1008 2013-02-26 20:06:33 daybyter has joined
1009 2013-02-26 20:08:01 <fagmuffinz> Yea, found that, keeping that for reference
1010 2013-02-26 20:12:58 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: you know tflops are useless
1011 2013-02-26 20:14:10 <Luke-Jr> * 718b597 Enable script verification for reorganized mempool tx <-- does anyone consider this a security fix?
1012 2013-02-26 20:15:02 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: Yeah, course, but either they cheat with two-op-in-one the way AMD did, or not, but the listed specs are now on-par with the older AMD cards.
1013 2013-02-26 20:15:40 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: They haven't really done that before. What would be really cool is if someone got an Intel phi and put some mining on there just for comparison's sake.
1014 2013-02-26 20:15:55 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, that's for scripts which were in a valid chain but have been orphaned and are now being put into the mempool, right?
1015 2013-02-26 20:16:28 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: right
1016 2013-02-26 20:16:36 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: the risk is IBDing a mining node
1017 2013-02-26 20:16:44 <phantomcircuit> then the script would have already been verified
1018 2013-02-26 20:16:46 <phantomcircuit> IBDing?
1019 2013-02-26 20:17:01 <Luke-Jr> someone could feed you orphaned blocks with invalid P2SH transactions before the switchover, then they end up in your memorypool
1020 2013-02-26 20:17:08 <sipa> Luke-Jr, phantomcircuit: the bug was that some post-bip16-invalid transaction was in a side-chain in someone's block files, so when importing, it ended up in the mempool without being checked, and never managing to go in a block
1021 2013-02-26 20:17:08 <Luke-Jr> Initial Blockchain Download
1022 2013-02-26 20:17:32 <phantomcircuit> ohh
1023 2013-02-26 20:17:54 <phantomcircuit> hmm
1024 2013-02-26 20:18:30 <Luke-Jr> since it only affected (released) pre-0.8 without a reindex, you'd need to do something nasty to the new minre
1025 2013-02-26 20:18:31 <Luke-Jr> miner*
1026 2013-02-26 20:18:56 <Luke-Jr> sipa: right?
1027 2013-02-26 20:19:11 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i think it affected all post-bip16 versions
1028 2013-02-26 20:19:32 <sipa> seems hard to exploit though
1029 2013-02-26 20:20:07 <sipa> oh, without loadblocks/bootstrap.dat it not exploitable of course
1030 2013-02-26 20:20:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not even with a peer feeding you phony IBD? O.o
1031 2013-02-26 20:21:26 <sipa> hmm, you'd need a valid side chain
1032 2013-02-26 20:21:40 <sipa> but it can be a very early one at very low difficulty
1033 2013-02-26 20:22:14 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I'm not sure what harm that would cause, however.
1034 2013-02-26 20:22:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: invalid blocks?
1035 2013-02-26 20:22:34 <sipa> the memory pool right now is not bounded by memory
1036 2013-02-26 20:22:39 <sipa> afaik
1037 2013-02-26 20:22:54 <sipa> so there's much easier ways to overflow it
1038 2013-02-26 20:23:12 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1039 2013-02-26 20:23:20 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I don't believe it'll try to mine it. Though I don't remember why.
1040 2013-02-26 20:23:42 <Luke-Jr> oh, right; CreateNewBlock tries to connect still
1041 2013-02-26 20:24:09 <sipa> and has sigchecking enabled, afaik
1042 2013-02-26 20:24:57 <HM> wow
1043 2013-02-26 20:25:16 <Luke-Jr> yep
1044 2013-02-26 20:25:35 <HM> if you mlock() some memory to keep it out of swap and then fork() the new process will lose the lock and could swap
1045 2013-02-26 20:25:55 <gmaxwell> It was a scarry bug but not because it was actually dangerous, but just because if there had been a second bug it would have been dangerous.
1046 2013-02-26 20:26:16 D34TH has joined
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1049 2013-02-26 20:26:23 <Luke-Jr> yep, confirmed CreateNewBlock should ignore such mempool txns
1050 2013-02-26 20:26:35 <gmaxwell> HM: fork logically copies the whole process, so that follows.
1051 2013-02-26 20:26:43 <Luke-Jr> even as far back as 0.4.x
1052 2013-02-26 20:26:57 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I could feed you a lot and make your mempool scanning slow... but there are easier ways to do that.
1053 2013-02-26 20:27:41 <HM> gmaxwell: i've come across a lot of pages saying use mlock() to keep 'secret' things out of swap, of course none of them mentioned madvise() -> MADV_DONTFORK
1054 2013-02-26 20:27:54 MC1984 has joined
1055 2013-02-26 20:30:34 <HM> Windows actually has some nice memory protection features
1056 2013-02-26 20:31:54 ashams has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1057 2013-02-26 20:33:23 <Luke-Jr> so how about this? 5293639416d776e179b5bbcc219d145eb644b290 Correctly randomize change output position
1058 2013-02-26 20:34:26 <Luke-Jr> I'd argue it's not a security fix, because 1) it's a minor privacy issue, 2) one would need to know the version of software being used (older versions had it the inverse!), and 3) you can guess the same private info with a 50/50 chance anyway
1059 2013-02-26 20:38:06 fagmuffinz_ has joined
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1061 2013-02-26 20:38:09 <gmaxwell> I think it's a security issue.
1062 2013-02-26 20:38:23 <gmaxwell> perhaps not a major one, since not all users care.
1063 2013-02-26 20:38:48 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: the jaggedness of change vs outputs is a better distinguisher in any case.
1064 2013-02-26 20:39:30 fagmuffinz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1065 2013-02-26 20:40:45 andytoshi has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1066 2013-02-26 20:40:45 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1067 2013-02-26 20:40:45 QM has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1071 2013-02-26 20:51:10 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: even though before 0.3.21, the change was always the last output?
1072 2013-02-26 20:52:24 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1073 2013-02-26 20:52:48 <sipa> Luke-Jr: was it?
1074 2013-02-26 20:53:04 <sipa> just checked v0.3.20 - looks good to me
1075 2013-02-26 20:53:13 <Luke-Jr> sipa: from looking at the git history, it seems the "attempt" to randomize it was part of Gavin's sendmany commit
1076 2013-02-26 20:53:53 <Luke-Jr> - wtxNew.vout.push_back(CTxOut(nChange, scriptChange));
1077 2013-02-26 20:54:06 <sipa> check the line above
1078 2013-02-26 20:54:12 <Luke-Jr> * b931ed8 (origin-pull/106/head) sendmany RPC command, to send to multiple recipients in one transaction.
1079 2013-02-26 20:54:36 <Luke-Jr> the line above is just building scriptChange
1080 2013-02-26 20:54:45 <Luke-Jr> the push_back was replaced with a "random" insert
1081 2013-02-26 20:54:58 <Luke-Jr> oh
1082 2013-02-26 20:55:05 <Luke-Jr> it was doing a more convoluted randoming
1083 2013-02-26 20:55:08 <Luke-Jr> i c
1084 2013-02-26 20:55:10 <sipa> yeah
1085 2013-02-26 20:55:24 <sipa> a more efficient one, though :)
1086 2013-02-26 20:55:29 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1087 2013-02-26 20:55:45 <Luke-Jr> ok, I see, that was there from the start
1088 2013-02-26 21:00:11 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
1089 2013-02-26 21:01:37 <ProfMac> I just brought up the new Shatoshi client. Does anyone have a link to the thread on Bitcointalk to comment on how it went?
1090 2013-02-26 21:01:49 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1091 2013-02-26 21:03:18 ThomasV_ has joined
1092 2013-02-26 21:03:33 <Luke-Jr> http://bitcointroll.org/index.php?topic=145184
1093 2013-02-26 21:03:40 <Luke-Jr> ProfMac: if there are bugs, they belong on GitHub Issues tho
1094 2013-02-26 21:04:20 daybyter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1095 2013-02-26 21:06:25 andytoshi has joined
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1099 2013-02-26 21:07:50 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/CVEs updated, and CVEs requested for the 2 in January
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1110 2013-02-26 21:42:11 <MC1984> hmm bitcoin wallet initial sync is still pretty slow here
1111 2013-02-26 21:42:24 <MC1984> from a peer with protocol: 70001
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1113 2013-02-26 21:50:32 <MC1984> hm i wouldnt mind seeing netowrd send/reciee rates for the peers in the peer list
1114 2013-02-26 21:51:16 <MC1984> also maybe data transfer per session/total in the options, lots of bandwidth sensitive mobile apps have that
1115 2013-02-26 21:51:18 <MC1984> important information
1116 2013-02-26 21:52:25 <andytoshi> has the freenode hidden service been down for days for anyone else?
1117 2013-02-26 21:53:23 <gavinandresen> MC1984: "patches welcome"
1118 2013-02-26 21:53:58 <sipa> gavinandresen: i assume he's talking about the android app
1119 2013-02-26 21:54:09 <MC1984> yes
1120 2013-02-26 21:54:32 <MC1984> my keyboard is really bad damn
1121 2013-02-26 21:54:48 <gavinandresen> sipa: open source android app?
1122 2013-02-26 21:55:01 <sipa> gavinandresen: yes; Goonie's
1123 2013-02-26 21:55:12 <gavinandresen> mmm. I bet he'd welcome patches, too
1124 2013-02-26 21:55:51 <MC1984> LOL PATCHES WELCOME MOTHERFUCKER
1125 2013-02-26 21:56:00 <MC1984> im not demanding, just saying what i think
1126 2013-02-26 21:56:06 <gavinandresen> okey dokey.
1127 2013-02-26 21:56:31 <sipa> \o/ 3.2% extra signature verification speedup
1128 2013-02-26 21:56:42 <Goonie> MC1984: android has data usage monitoring built in, no need to replicate that into the apps
1129 2013-02-26 21:56:47 <sipa> (doing benchmark again, as it may just be statistical variation)
1130 2013-02-26 21:57:15 <MC1984> oh yeah youre right, ive seen that in the setting somewhere
1131 2013-02-26 21:57:18 <sipa> and before gavinandresen complains: it's just one line of course code: EC_GROUP_precompute_mults(group, ctx);
1132 2013-02-26 21:57:51 <Goonie> MC1884: The reason its still slow is because of slow disc access. Bloom filtering is currently more for saving bandwidth.
1133 2013-02-26 21:58:25 <gavinandresen> I dunno⦠another line of codeâ¦â¦ lets spend a hour or two talking about it first.
1134 2013-02-26 21:58:25 <MC1984> thats ok, not really complaining
1135 2013-02-26 21:59:02 JDuke128 has joined
1136 2013-02-26 21:59:07 <gavinandresen> for starters, shouldn't it be 'context' instead of 'ctx' ? Or maybe ptrCtx ? Or ptrContext?
1137 2013-02-26 21:59:25 <sipa> haha
1138 2013-02-26 21:59:26 <gavinandresen> (sorry, feeling silly today)
1139 2013-02-26 21:59:43 <Luke-Jr> p_ctx_ecdsa_group_forsigcheck
1140 2013-02-26 22:00:02 <Goonie> MC1984: and if you're talking about "initial startup" or about "replay up to the birth date of your wallet", when actually bloom filtering is not even used.
1141 2013-02-26 22:00:02 <sipa> pctxGroupMultsPrecompute
1142 2013-02-26 22:00:22 <Luke-Jr> pctxGroupMultsPrecomputeOrange
1143 2013-02-26 22:00:35 <Goonie> s/when/then
1144 2013-02-26 22:00:36 <sipa> pctxGroupMultsPrecomputeOrangeEleven
1145 2013-02-26 22:00:43 <sipa> ^- pretty sure gavin will prefer this
1146 2013-02-26 22:00:48 <MC1984> i think td explained this to me a few days ago actually lol
1147 2013-02-26 22:00:50 <Luke-Jr> pctxGroupMultsPrecomputeOrangeElevenIsHuInTonal
1148 2013-02-26 22:01:16 <phantomcircuit> psh
1149 2013-02-26 22:01:25 <phantomcircuit> just call it i
1150 2013-02-26 22:01:34 <Luke-Jr> but i is for integers!
1151 2013-02-26 22:01:37 <MC1984> hmm what is satoshi client v 0.7.99 though
1152 2013-02-26 22:01:37 <phantomcircuit> any good programmer should know what it is from context
1153 2013-02-26 22:01:51 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: pre-0.8
1154 2013-02-26 22:02:04 <MC1984> oh
1155 2013-02-26 22:02:17 <MC1984> its the protocol version that mattes right
1156 2013-02-26 22:02:58 <Luke-Jr> depends what you're looking at it for
1157 2013-02-26 22:03:26 <sipa> phantomcircuit: even when the variable itself is (a pointer to) the context? :p
1158 2013-02-26 22:03:28 monkeynipple_ has joined
1159 2013-02-26 22:03:41 <sipa> yes yes i know, different context
1160 2013-02-26 22:03:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: 3.2% is small compared to Hal though!
1161 2013-02-26 22:04:40 <sipa> gmaxwell: it is on top of hal, though
1162 2013-02-26 22:04:43 <gmaxwell> oh!
1163 2013-02-26 22:05:01 <sipa> i would have expected a larger effect, actually
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1165 2013-02-26 22:05:51 <sipa> i remember i tried this before, but couldn't see an effect and therefor assumed the openssl code already did the precomputation
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1169 2013-02-26 22:06:12 <sipa> however, there is absolutely no call to that function anywhere in openssl's source tree
1170 2013-02-26 22:06:18 <phantomcircuit> sipa, oh well in that case it should clearly be p for pointer
1171 2013-02-26 22:06:45 <phantomcircuit> sipa, what function?
1172 2013-02-26 22:07:16 <phantomcircuit> there are actually an inordinate number of things in openssl that are generated through macros and dont appear to be used at all
1173 2013-02-26 22:07:20 <phantomcircuit> or defined anywhere
1174 2013-02-26 22:07:28 <sipa> EC_GROUP_precompute_mults
1175 2013-02-26 22:07:29 <phantomcircuit> like pretty much all of the ASN.1 functions
1176 2013-02-26 22:07:56 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1177 2013-02-26 22:08:52 <phantomcircuit> sipa, not only is it not called but it appears to not even exist
1178 2013-02-26 22:08:54 <phantomcircuit> macros
1179 2013-02-26 22:09:05 <sipa> eh, i may have made a type
1180 2013-02-26 22:09:27 <phantomcircuit> nope that's the right name
1181 2013-02-26 22:09:28 <sipa> int EC_GROUP_precompute_mult(EC_GROUP *group, BN_CTX *ctx);
1182 2013-02-26 22:09:39 <phantomcircuit> oh right the s
1183 2013-02-26 22:10:09 <phantomcircuit> ./crypto/ec/ec_key.c: return EC_GROUP_precompute_mult(key->group, ctx);
1184 2013-02-26 22:10:58 <phantomcircuit> which is EC_KEY_precompute_mult
1185 2013-02-26 22:11:19 <phantomcircuit> which isn't called from anywhere but speed.c
1186 2013-02-26 22:11:20 <sipa> yeah, i just searched for calls to anything 'precompute'
1187 2013-02-26 22:11:26 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell sipa: FYI : I bought the domains "bitcoincore.com/.org" today, and am planning on buying a cheap SSL certificate for one or both of them; I need a SSL cert to start generating and testing "real" payment requests.
1188 2013-02-26 22:12:07 <sipa> cool
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1190 2013-02-26 22:13:44 <kinlo> gavinandresen: if you want a really cheap cert, startssl.com provides them for free
1191 2013-02-26 22:13:51 <kinlo> in case you didn't know that yet :)
1192 2013-02-26 22:14:50 <sipa> gavinandresen: i'm a big fan of the payment protocol idea, but i just don't have the time to be very actively involved in it now
1193 2013-02-26 22:14:54 <phantomcircuit> im guessing he wants one that will actually work everywhere
1194 2013-02-26 22:14:58 <gavinandresen> kinlo: I'm going to splurge and spend $25 for a good-for-5-years cert
1195 2013-02-26 22:15:00 <phantomcircuit> :|
1196 2013-02-26 22:15:17 <kinlo> gavinandresen: as you wish, just trying to help :)
1197 2013-02-26 22:15:39 <gavinandresen> sipa: RE: payment protocol: no problem, most of the work is Qt stuff
1198 2013-02-26 22:15:39 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: the startssl certs work everywhere except on old browsers, but this is for the payment protocol stuff in any case.
1199 2013-02-26 22:15:53 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i know from experience that isn't true
1200 2013-02-26 22:16:05 <phantomcircuit> startssl screwed up a while ago
1201 2013-02-26 22:16:17 <phantomcircuit> the certs they issue are in a chain 4 certificates long
1202 2013-02-26 22:16:36 <phantomcircuit> root -> intermediary -> intermediary -> server cert
1203 2013-02-26 22:16:49 <phantomcircuit> various browsers have the root/first intermediary
1204 2013-02-26 22:16:53 <gavinandresen> ooh, good test case. I may have to get one of those, too
1205 2013-02-26 22:16:57 <phantomcircuit> so it's impossible to be sure which to provide
1206 2013-02-26 22:17:03 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: sure, you have to supply the chain.
1207 2013-02-26 22:17:13 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yes but
1208 2013-02-26 22:17:14 rng29a has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1209 2013-02-26 22:17:19 <kinlo> phantomcircuit: the standard doesn't limit the depth of the chain, so startssl is not to blame imho
1210 2013-02-26 22:17:26 <sipa> seems my benchmark (reindex the chain until block 160k, with -nocheckpoints) has very little variation actually: 1340.56s vs 1339.33s
1211 2013-02-26 22:17:27 <gmaxwell> But thats not just a startssl thing, current verisign certs have a four cert long chain.
1212 2013-02-26 22:17:33 <phantomcircuit> if the browser is webkit with the first intermediary and you supply the root ca also
1213 2013-02-26 22:17:34 <sipa> so it seems the 3.2% is quite accurate
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1215 2013-02-26 22:17:39 <phantomcircuit> it wont validate
1216 2013-02-26 22:17:47 <phantomcircuit> even thought there is a valid trust paht
1217 2013-02-26 22:17:53 <kinlo> phantomcircuit: so a webkit bug ? :)
1218 2013-02-26 22:17:55 <gmaxwell> sipa: we should probably have an ECDSA unit test that can double as a microbenchmark. it would save you some time.
1219 2013-02-26 22:17:58 <phantomcircuit> so you're stuck between two bad choices
1220 2013-02-26 22:18:09 <kinlo> oh well, certificates are bad by design
1221 2013-02-26 22:18:34 <sipa> so it seems to reduce the (CPU) time from 1385s to 1340s
1222 2013-02-26 22:18:41 <sipa> nothing spectacular, but hey :)
1223 2013-02-26 22:18:43 <gmaxwell> (and might save our bacon, e.g. if openssl started accepting a public key of 0 as valid or whatever)
1224 2013-02-26 22:18:48 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i've dealt with this a few times now and only figured out exactly the issue relatively recently, it's quite annoying
1225 2013-02-26 22:24:27 <MC1984> every little helps sipa
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1232 2013-02-26 22:31:42 <andytoshi> has anyone else noticed that the freenode hidden service is down?
1233 2013-02-26 22:32:10 * Luke-Jr wonders if anyone here would even care :p
1234 2013-02-26 22:33:17 andytoshi has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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1236 2013-02-26 22:33:26 andytosh1 is now known as andytoshi
1237 2013-02-26 22:33:59 <andytoshi> it is a bit silly :P you have to auth to freenode to use it
1238 2013-02-26 22:34:26 <andytoshi> then it says "andytoshi/tor-sasl" when you connect
1239 2013-02-26 22:34:46 <andytoshi> but it decreases the signal-to-noise ratio on the tor network, so i do it as a public service
1240 2013-02-26 22:36:57 dvide has quit ()
1241 2013-02-26 22:38:32 <sipa> sounds like an excuse for doing an IBD over tor
1242 2013-02-26 22:39:12 <andytoshi> sipa: i did do one, actually
1243 2013-02-26 22:39:30 <andytoshi> and i'm running a hidden service bitcoin node, so hopefully i'll return the favor..
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1260 2013-02-26 23:09:26 <MC1984> do some android apps install themselves to extrnal SD card by default?
1261 2013-02-26 23:09:36 <MC1984> like bitcoin wallet, and i know i didnt put it there
1262 2013-02-26 23:11:09 <MC1984> in fact im still not sure how android names its volumes, i think the system partition is "internal storage" and the otehr internal volume is called an "SD card" ?
1263 2013-02-26 23:13:36 <HM> it's arbitrary
1264 2013-02-26 23:13:46 <HM> for phones that don't have sdcard slots /sdcard is internal also
1265 2013-02-26 23:14:12 <HM> i recall my G1 used to put apps on SD card automatically, may have been a cyanogenmod feature
1266 2013-02-26 23:19:32 monkeynipple_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1267 2013-02-26 23:24:05 <MC1984> i have mnt/sdcard which is internal and mnt/external_sd
1268 2013-02-26 23:25:04 <MC1984> of sdcard, 1GB is "app storage" (???) rest is generally available
1269 2013-02-26 23:25:43 <doublec> my note 2 doesn't even allow storing apps on the sd card
1270 2013-02-26 23:25:52 <MC1984> and i have a 32gb external SD which i was asspaind to find i couldnt just install everything on it
1271 2013-02-26 23:26:16 <doublec> same. I have a 64gb external card but can only store apps on the tiny internal partition.
1272 2013-02-26 23:26:16 <MC1984> so now its mainly full of playstation roms
1273 2013-02-26 23:27:07 <MC1984> yeah they chose 1gb out of 8gb for "app storage" on this device
1274 2013-02-26 23:27:14 <MC1984> its rooted so there must be a way
1275 2013-02-26 23:29:42 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, it depends a lot on the firmware you have loaded
1276 2013-02-26 23:30:11 * HM looks at Linux's in-kernel keyring and wonders why nobody uses it
1277 2013-02-26 23:30:24 <phantomcircuit> cm typically lets you install apps to sdcard and even move already installed apps
1278 2013-02-26 23:30:34 <phantomcircuit> although on more recent phones you should have plenty of space
1279 2013-02-26 23:30:59 <MC1984> no cyanogen for this dvice yet if ever
1280 2013-02-26 23:33:02 TD has joined
1281 2013-02-26 23:34:01 <MC1984> they dont seem to give a shit about anything that doesnt say Nexus, Samsung, LG, Sony, etc on it
1282 2013-02-26 23:36:57 * HM strokes his Nexus
1283 2013-02-26 23:37:02 <MC1984> and manufacturers dont seem to give a shit about supporting released devices so much as releasing new ones
1284 2013-02-26 23:37:17 <sipa> MC1984: why would that be :p
1285 2013-02-26 23:37:18 RBecker is now known as rbecker
1286 2013-02-26 23:37:26 <MC1984> in fact from what ive seen, theyre using different versions of android to justify selling 200 different devices
1287 2013-02-26 23:37:50 <MC1984> zero incentive to update me to jelly bean!
1288 2013-02-26 23:38:01 GMP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1289 2013-02-26 23:38:19 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, what phone do you have o.O
1290 2013-02-26 23:38:35 <HM> i think it's that there's 0 incentive to update existing phones
1291 2013-02-26 23:38:43 <HM> user just blame app authors or google
1292 2013-02-26 23:38:46 <HM> users*
1293 2013-02-26 23:38:48 <MC1984> its an archos cobalt 80
1294 2013-02-26 23:38:50 <MC1984> tablet
1295 2013-02-26 23:39:01 <phantomcircuit> oh
1296 2013-02-26 23:39:04 <MC1984> sold new with ICS 2 months ago
1297 2013-02-26 23:39:04 ovidiusoft has joined
1298 2013-02-26 23:39:08 <phantomcircuit> yeah not gonna happen
1299 2013-02-26 23:39:11 <MC1984> but its was only 50 quid
1300 2013-02-26 23:39:29 <MC1984> and it has one of the strongest chipsets out there i gather
1301 2013-02-26 23:39:40 <sipa> powah!
1302 2013-02-26 23:39:47 <MC1984> lol
1303 2013-02-26 23:40:29 <MC1984> its really nice for the money
1304 2013-02-26 23:40:38 FredEE has joined
1305 2013-02-26 23:40:51 <MC1984> i just went on their site looking for firmware updates and instead i found INTRODUCING THE ARCHOS PLATINUM RANGE NOW WITH JELLY BEAN
1306 2013-02-26 23:40:56 <MC1984> and i realised how this works
1307 2013-02-26 23:41:36 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, it's got similar specs to my phone but with a larger screen
1308 2013-02-26 23:41:47 <phantomcircuit> also i seriously doubt they're going to update it
1309 2013-02-26 23:42:04 <MC1984> yeh
1310 2013-02-26 23:42:17 <phantomcircuit> at 50 gbp per device they wont have the profit margin to support the device
1311 2013-02-26 23:42:21 <phantomcircuit> basically at all
1312 2013-02-26 23:42:32 <MC1984> well it sells for 120 now
1313 2013-02-26 23:42:36 <MC1984> i got a sale
1314 2013-02-26 23:42:46 <MC1984> bought 3 of the fuckers for family
1315 2013-02-26 23:42:54 <MC1984> android for everyone
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1317 2013-02-26 23:44:21 <Goonie> MC1984: since android 4, internal and external is on the same filesystem for most phones, so it doesn't really matter
1318 2013-02-26 23:45:19 <MC1984> ye
1319 2013-02-26 23:46:06 <muhoo> archos does stuff weird tho, or at least they used to
1320 2013-02-26 23:46:28 <muhoo> IIRC they are still shipping a tablet with donut on it.
1321 2013-02-26 23:46:44 <MC1984> they used to make a lot of rubbish i think
1322 2013-02-26 23:47:00 <MC1984> but since andorid they sem to have some decent products
1323 2013-02-26 23:47:10 <MC1984> the gamepad thing looks like a great psp alternative
1324 2013-02-26 23:47:10 <muhoo> ok, bitcoind 0.8 question. is there a way to get it to listen, when it is still connected to just one node? this is for some testing i want to do
1325 2013-02-26 23:47:22 <sipa> muhoo: yes, use -listen
1326 2013-02-26 23:47:27 <muhoo> thx
1327 2013-02-26 23:47:50 <muhoo> is listen=yes in the .conf file equivalent?
1328 2013-02-26 23:48:00 <sipa> listen=1
1329 2013-02-26 23:48:06 <sipa> =yes may also work, unsure
1330 2013-02-26 23:48:34 <BlueMatt> how did one exploit the bug that was because duplicate entries in the merkle tree were equivalent to the padded merkle tree?
1331 2013-02-26 23:48:41 <muhoo> awesome, listen=1 does the job, thanks
1332 2013-02-26 23:48:58 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you make a node reject a block by feeding it the second preimage block first.
1333 2013-02-26 23:49:05 <gmaxwell> then it will never accept the real block.
1334 2013-02-26 23:49:06 <BlueMatt> ahh, ok thanks
1335 2013-02-26 23:49:26 <sipa> BlueMatt: take incoming block, duplicate some of the last transactions to make it a power of two, relay it; anyone who accepts it will consider the real blockchain invalid
1336 2013-02-26 23:49:48 <sipa> gmaxwell beats me
1337 2013-02-26 23:49:53 agricocb has joined
1338 2013-02-26 23:50:06 <gmaxwell> thats what you get for giving a more complete answer.
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1343 2013-02-26 23:54:11 <muhoo> wow, bitcoinj can go stir-crazy if it can't reach a peer, 150% CPU.
1344 2013-02-26 23:54:13 <muhoo> 2013-02-26 15:34:51,056 INFO com.google.bitcoin.core.PeerGroup: Peer discovery took 0msec
1345 2013-02-26 23:54:28 rdponticelli has joined
1346 2013-02-26 23:54:43 <MC1984> where do you get that log
1347 2013-02-26 23:55:25 owowo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1348 2013-02-26 23:55:38 <muhoo> MC1984: https://www.refheap.com/paste/11855
1349 2013-02-26 23:56:17 <muhoo> something racy maybe
1350 2013-02-26 23:56:30 <MC1984> yeah but how did you get it out of your android
1351 2013-02-26 23:56:37 <muhoo> i'm not running on an android :-)
1352 2013-02-26 23:56:57 <muhoo> i'm developing in clojure on linux, using bitcoinj as my bitcoin backend
1353 2013-02-26 23:57:07 <MC1984> oh
1354 2013-02-26 23:57:27 <sipa> java is used on more than just android :p
1355 2013-02-26 23:57:48 <MC1984> yes i know im just in android mode or something lol
1356 2013-02-26 23:58:01 <muhoo> and the jvm is used for more than just java (thankfully!)
1357 2013-02-26 23:58:47 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: [BB])
1358 2013-02-26 23:59:30 <muhoo> whoa... connections: 117
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