1 2013-02-28 00:00:41 ByteUnit has quit (Quit: Tik Tak, a clockwork orange?, what the fuck)
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   6 2013-02-28 00:11:19 <fatAgnes_> hi
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   9 2013-02-28 00:16:54 <Quazgaa> anybody use gentoo
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  11 2013-02-28 00:17:50 <Quazgaa> i wonder what is the difference between bitcoin 9999 9999.1 and 9999.2 ebuilds
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  13 2013-02-28 00:24:33 <discrete> ;;ticker
  14 2013-02-28 00:24:34 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 31.20001, Best ask: 31.22124, Bid-ask spread: 0.02123, Last trade: 31.20000, 24 hour volume: 30302.02620063, 24 hour low: 30.79010, 24 hour high: 31.65000, 24 hour vwap: 31.21772
  15 2013-02-28 00:24:48 <discrete> ;;genrate 12340
  16 2013-02-28 00:25:08 <gribble> Error: Failed to retrieve current block bounty. Try again later.
  17 2013-02-28 00:27:21 one_zero has joined
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  21 2013-02-28 00:30:05 RBecker is now known as rbecker
  22 2013-02-28 00:34:29 <sipa> Quazgaa: ask Luke-Jr
  23 2013-02-28 00:34:51 <sipa> grau: cool, everything clear now about BIP32 ?
  24 2013-02-28 00:35:08 <grau> sipa: yes, thanks I implemented it.
  25 2013-02-28 00:35:35 <sipa> i have test vectors, but i prefer not publishing them until it's "final" (still asking some crypto people to look at it)
  26 2013-02-28 00:35:42 <grau> https://github.com/bitsofproof/supernode/blob/master/api/src/main/java/com/bitsofproof/supernode/api/KeyGenerator.java
  27 2013-02-28 00:37:04 <grau> I created a test case that just checks if public key sequence created from private matches public from public
  28 2013-02-28 00:37:21 <sipa> that's always a good test i guess
  29 2013-02-28 00:37:36 <grau> Since all crypto is handled by BC the code is simple
  30 2013-02-28 00:37:58 <sipa> some people have suggested changing the multiplication into an addition, as it's cheaper and should be as secure
  31 2013-02-28 00:38:18 <grau> its fast enough as is
  32 2013-02-28 00:38:26 <grau> imho
  33 2013-02-28 00:38:47 <grau> nice proposal
  34 2013-02-28 00:39:05 <grau> I am thinking about how protected chaincode must be
  35 2013-02-28 00:39:30 <grau> I store the wallet as master key encoded using BIP38 and chaincode
  36 2013-02-28 00:39:32 <sipa> i think it should be treated as 'secret', until someone needs public derivation and knows the risk
  37 2013-02-28 00:40:09 <sipa> (private child + public extended master = everything revealed)
  38 2013-02-28 00:41:39 <grau> I read that, thanks. Since I always store private encrypted, do you think chaincode may remain plain on storage?
  39 2013-02-28 00:41:41 rdymac has joined
  40 2013-02-28 00:43:12 <sipa> i actually planned on doing that myself when implementing it in the reference client
  41 2013-02-28 00:43:26 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
  42 2013-02-28 00:43:37 <sipa> but i'm not sure anymore
  43 2013-02-28 00:43:52 fatAgnes_ has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0/20130220104816])
  44 2013-02-28 00:44:03 <grau> maybe BIP38 should be extended to chaincode
  45 2013-02-28 00:44:18 <gmaxwell> sipa: chaincode shouldn't be subject to wallet encryption, alas—  it's needed so that infinite getnewaddress works.
  46 2013-02-28 00:44:38 <gmaxwell> grau: I don't know that anyone but the author and you have looked at that bip.
  47 2013-02-28 00:45:22 * HM looked at it
  48 2013-02-28 00:45:34 <gmaxwell> grau: I suspect it was created out of process. (not the first time Casascius has done that), since you seem to think its useful I've added reading it to my todo list.
  49 2013-02-28 00:45:36 * HM is as curious as he is unproductive
  50 2013-02-28 00:45:46 <grau> It is nice, I like it
  51 2013-02-28 00:46:10 <grau> There is a beta version of bitaddress.org that also uses it
  52 2013-02-28 00:46:22 <grau> printing blue notes if encrypted
  53 2013-02-28 00:46:49 <grau> I think BIP32+BIP38 gives a nice multi wallet solution
  54 2013-02-28 00:47:11 <HM> why do new BIPs continue to use Base58? :|
  55 2013-02-28 00:47:19 <grau> Master keys of wallets can be stored with individual passphrases
  56 2013-02-28 00:47:22 <gmaxwell> in the past his crypto stuff had really poor security parameters due to him prioritizing JS... I hope he didn't continue that with BIP_0038 or otherwise it's more stuff no one should use.
  57 2013-02-28 00:47:35 <sipa> HM: because the nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from
  58 2013-02-28 00:47:55 <sipa> HM: i.e., reusing what everyone is using is easier for everybody than trying to fix things sometimes
  59 2013-02-28 00:48:20 <sipa> especially because people wouldn't agree on what 'fixing' is :)
  60 2013-02-28 00:48:44 <gmaxwell> HM: base58 isn't horrible. it avoids annoying characters in base64. And it's more compact than any base32.
  61 2013-02-28 00:48:58 da2ce7 has joined
  62 2013-02-28 00:49:26 <sipa> and an order of magnitude harder to implement (but everyone's doing that already anyway), and impossible to get a decent CRC for
  63 2013-02-28 00:49:27 <gmaxwell> it's just a pain to implement, but the ratio of users to implementations should be large indeed, and so small improvements for users are easily justified.
  64 2013-02-28 00:49:29 <grau> gmaxwell: base58 is more expensive in computation
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  66 2013-02-28 00:49:54 rbecker is now known as RBecker
  67 2013-02-28 00:50:17 <HM> grau: not really an issue when you're encrypting and using scrypt
  68 2013-02-28 00:50:22 <gmaxwell> grau: ever so slightly. If you're doing something where that matters, you're probably doing something wrong to begin with. It's like saying 'printf is slow' :) true, but why are you printfing in performance critical code?
  69 2013-02-28 00:50:51 <grau> gmaxwell: right but it was a pain to implement really.
  70 2013-02-28 00:50:59 <grau> HM: true
  71 2013-02-28 00:51:16 coolsa has joined
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  73 2013-02-28 00:51:27 <gmaxwell> Pretty small pain compared to the rest of bitcoin. besides, everyone is implementing it lazily with bignums. that hardly hard :P
  74 2013-02-28 00:51:54 meLon has joined
  75 2013-02-28 00:51:56 <HM> i think BIP38 is dangerous
  76 2013-02-28 00:51:57 <grau> gmaxwell: I am not sure it matters. People will never read the addresses. The just scan
  77 2013-02-28 00:52:23 <grau> HM: why?
  78 2013-02-28 00:52:24 epscy has joined
  79 2013-02-28 00:52:42 <HM> one sec
  80 2013-02-28 00:52:43 <HM> reading
  81 2013-02-28 00:53:26 <HM> "Hash the Bitcoin address, and verify that addresshash from the encrypted private key record matches the hash. If not, report that the passphrase entry was incorrect."
  82 2013-02-28 00:54:23 <grau> What is wrong with that checksum?
  83 2013-02-28 00:55:09 <grau> you decrypt private key create its address and compare with what the plantext checksum says.
  84 2013-02-28 00:55:37 <HM> yes, but it's only 4 bytes long
  85 2013-02-28 00:55:42 <gmaxwell> sounds fine to me.
  86 2013-02-28 00:55:53 <grau> yes just like the regular address checksum
  87 2013-02-28 00:56:19 <sipa> HM: so there's a 1/2^32 chance of accepting an invalid password, and failing later on
  88 2013-02-28 00:56:56 <gmaxwell> that it forces you to hash the ascii rendition of the address is ugly.
  89 2013-02-28 00:57:39 <HM> if someone uses these encrypted strings poorly it could be an issue
  90 2013-02-28 00:57:41 <grau> yes hashing bas58
  91 2013-02-28 00:57:53 <gmaxwell> It should just use the existing address 'checksum'
  92 2013-02-28 00:58:08 <gmaxwell> and ugh. again, his again weak security parameters as a JS consession.
  93 2013-02-28 00:58:14 <HM> say you were redeeming these tokens online, for some product you could download instantly
  94 2013-02-28 00:58:26 <Luke-Jr> Quazgaa: 9999 is git master, 9999.1 is git next, and 9999.2 is git next-test
  95 2013-02-28 00:58:26 <HM> if you had unlimited tries you could potentially make that 4 byte checksum work for you
  96 2013-02-28 00:58:45 <HM> although i guess they'll validate the contents of the wallet against the blockchain
  97 2013-02-28 00:59:11 coolsa_ has joined
  98 2013-02-28 00:59:12 <grau> thats the point. that checksum is really just to check if encryption fails
  99 2013-02-28 01:00:06 <HM> i'll read it in more detail
 100 2013-02-28 01:00:43 gritcoin has joined
 101 2013-02-28 01:00:52 <gmaxwell> He's using AES in ECB mode and the input isn't always a multiple of the blocksize. Thats often bad news.
 102 2013-02-28 01:01:27 <HM> basically I think he should use CTR and a MAC over the cryptotext
 103 2013-02-28 01:01:43 <HM> even if it's still 4 bytes
 104 2013-02-28 01:01:47 coolsa has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 105 2013-02-28 01:02:17 <gmaxwell> HM: I don't know that thats helpful, and then it requires mode data to know which is which.
 106 2013-02-28 01:02:39 <grau> well, lets refine it. I just say that it is useful to have individually encrypted master keys on storage
 107 2013-02-28 01:03:10 <grau> thats what I need for multiple wallets in same database
 108 2013-02-28 01:03:29 GMP has joined
 109 2013-02-28 01:03:38 <grau> And I also think the physical notes are good for adoption
 110 2013-02-28 01:04:10 <grau> Having encrypte dnotes enables you to carry around without caring if loosing copies
 111 2013-02-28 01:04:12 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it depends on the the block fill
 112 2013-02-28 01:04:24 <phantomcircuit> if it's 0x00 filled then that's really bad
 113 2013-02-28 01:07:02 <gmaxwell> ;;ticker
 114 2013-02-28 01:07:03 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 32.01000, Best ask: 32.01588, Bid-ask spread: 0.00588, Last trade: 32.01000, 24 hour volume: 50985.48864781, 24 hour low: 30.79010, 24 hour high: 32.01588, 24 hour vwap: 31.47565
 115 2013-02-28 01:07:38 <sipa> wow 1.6M USD/24h
 116 2013-02-28 01:08:19 <HM> you can also carry encrypted wallets around on your phone
 117 2013-02-28 01:08:27 Conflict has joined
 118 2013-02-28 01:08:39 <HM> which seems more convenient
 119 2013-02-28 01:08:41 <grau> phones are inherently unsecure. too intelligent
 120 2013-02-28 01:09:20 <grau> I would not want to store more than change on a phone
 121 2013-02-28 01:09:36 <grau> Or just what I need just before I spend
 122 2013-02-28 01:09:37 freewil has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 123 2013-02-28 01:10:18 <phantomcircuit> grau, like say cash in your wallet
 124 2013-02-28 01:10:47 <grau> exactly. I think the combination of paper notes and phone client is the way to go
 125 2013-02-28 01:10:52 freewil has joined
 126 2013-02-28 01:10:57 <grau> you load paper into the phone as you need
 127 2013-02-28 01:11:01 <HM> it's ironic that there are people going around with $800 devices in their pocket that they won't trust to hold $100 of bitcoin
 128 2013-02-28 01:11:03 <HM> :P
 129 2013-02-28 01:11:15 <grau> it is rational
 130 2013-02-28 01:11:47 <grau> there are more ways to hack your phone from the distance than your pocket
 131 2013-02-28 01:12:31 <HM> and many of them ways could conceivably brick my $800 phone, or steal my saucy text messages or photos of me kissing my cat
 132 2013-02-28 01:12:41 andytoshi has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0)
 133 2013-02-28 01:13:04 <Luke-Jr> $800 phone
 134 2013-02-28 01:13:05 <Luke-Jr> what
 135 2013-02-28 01:13:28 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, smart phone without contract subsidy
 136 2013-02-28 01:13:32 <phantomcircuit> easily $800
 137 2013-02-28 01:13:39 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: no smartphone is worth $800 that I know of
 138 2013-02-28 01:14:05 <phantomcircuit> worth? maybe not
 139 2013-02-28 01:14:09 <phantomcircuit> sells for? certainly
 140 2013-02-28 01:14:12 <sipa> galaxy S3 = 450 euro
 141 2013-02-28 01:14:52 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, an ATT locked galaxy note 2 is $650
 142 2013-02-28 01:15:04 <SomeoneWeird> s3 is 800 unlocked
 143 2013-02-28 01:15:07 <SomeoneWeird> so is iphone 5
 144 2013-02-28 01:15:25 <Luke-Jr> I've seen a number of smartphones that could be turned into ordinary computers if only they had a keyboard :/
 145 2013-02-28 01:15:30 <Luke-Jr> THAT would be worth $800
 146 2013-02-28 01:15:47 <sipa> nobody is arguing about what your valuation of said devices is :)
 147 2013-02-28 01:16:14 <HM> Luke-Jr: Canonical are aiming for just that form factor
 148 2013-02-28 01:16:15 <gavinandresen> RE: bitcoin price:  holy guacamole… hope this isn't a huge bubble.
 149 2013-02-28 01:16:21 <phantomcircuit> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16875100077
 150 2013-02-28 01:16:26 <phantomcircuit> a cool grand
 151 2013-02-28 01:16:33 [\\\] has joined
 152 2013-02-28 01:16:36 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, doesn't appear to be
 153 2013-02-28 01:16:39 * gavinandresen is mesmerized watching http://bitcoinity.org/markets
 154 2013-02-28 01:16:41 <phantomcircuit> but who the hell knows
 155 2013-02-28 01:16:59 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 156 2013-02-28 01:16:59 <gavinandresen> well, the Gox/CoinLab/Silicon Valley Bank announcement is huge
 157 2013-02-28 01:17:01 <HM> actually you can buy an IPhone5 for up to £5m
 158 2013-02-28 01:17:02 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: it's been like this for a week or so now?
 159 2013-02-28 01:17:27 gritcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 160 2013-02-28 01:17:47 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: yes, but if you zoom out the bitcoinity order chart the ask side is awfully flat
 161 2013-02-28 01:18:54 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, i suspect most people didn't actually read the annoucement
 162 2013-02-28 01:19:26 * Luke-Jr didn't even know there was an announcement
 163 2013-02-28 01:19:35 <phantomcircuit> personally i'll be closing my personal mtgox account
 164 2013-02-28 01:19:50 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, coinlab.com/transition
 165 2013-02-28 01:19:56 <phantomcircuit> er
 166 2013-02-28 01:19:59 <phantomcircuit> http://coinlab.com/transition
 167 2013-02-28 01:21:09 <Luke-Jr> hmm, I don't know anything about CoinLab
 168 2013-02-28 01:21:28 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, it's a tihan seale/roger ver venture
 169 2013-02-28 01:21:31 <phantomcircuit> good luck with that
 170 2013-02-28 01:21:54 <Luke-Jr> >_<
 171 2013-02-28 01:21:59 <phantomcircuit> actually i'll leave money in my account so i can be part of the inevitable class action
 172 2013-02-28 01:22:06 <Luke-Jr> that link has Peter's name on it though?
 173 2013-02-28 01:22:13 <gavinandresen> Peter is CEO of coinlab
 174 2013-02-28 01:22:22 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, where do you think he got the money to start it?
 175 2013-02-28 01:22:25 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: how is Roger ver involved then?
 176 2013-02-28 01:22:51 <gavinandresen> I dunno, last I heard Tihan and … I forget who… were the coinlab investors.
 177 2013-02-28 01:22:56 <phantomcircuit> http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/04/24/coinlab-attracts-500000-in-venture-capital-for-bitcoin-projects/
 178 2013-02-28 01:23:32 <phantomcircuit> i haven't met peter and i dont know anything about him
 179 2013-02-28 01:23:49 <phantomcircuit> that being said anything that tihan or roger is involved with is radioactive
 180 2013-02-28 01:23:49 <gavinandresen> Draper!  That's the forget-who I forgot
 181 2013-02-28 01:23:57 owowo has joined
 182 2013-02-28 01:24:04 <MC1984> thats a nice ticker
 183 2013-02-28 01:24:10 * gavinandresen thinks phantomcircuit is just FUD'ding
 184 2013-02-28 01:24:29 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, think what you will, but i'm right
 185 2013-02-28 01:24:30 <gavinandresen> … but we're off-topic for bitcoin-dev.
 186 2013-02-28 01:24:35 <Luke-Jr> well, the Roger/Matonis/Erik trio at least is actively trying to kill Bitcoin IMO
 187 2013-02-28 01:24:50 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:AnuzECK_KUUJ:www.wiwd.uscourts.gov/opinions/pdfs/2003-2005/05-C-368-C-11-04-05.PDF+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiQcD99J5hMa0U9H530sa3zxfjnBQS_c02o6OpXi9hJmSk2t_jAjjLc4CaKx4m2Q_w-AuYiCCtqpzmDgKg-6Zoz4uYdBjtgYfETu_2U0kBE1xqoX8p0U0_QqNOkSvhi0uyymMcm&sig=AHIEtbR5tn8MzBOiMmv52OFVAwCu8AZm5A
 188 2013-02-28 01:25:46 <phantomcircuit> he was typo squatting lands end AND selling lands end merchandise
 189 2013-02-28 01:25:50 D34TH has joined
 190 2013-02-28 01:25:50 D34TH has quit (Changing host)
 191 2013-02-28 01:25:50 D34TH has joined
 192 2013-02-28 01:26:03 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: … so why was his motion to dismiss granted?  wait, no, I don't care, off-topic.....
 193 2013-02-28 01:26:08 <HM> so MtGox has been bought out
 194 2013-02-28 01:26:17 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, because he lied to the court and is a shady fuck
 195 2013-02-28 01:26:18 <HM> that's basically what I'm reading in to it
 196 2013-02-28 01:26:28 <phantomcircuit> HM, it only applies to us customers
 197 2013-02-28 01:26:48 saivann_ has joined
 198 2013-02-28 01:26:59 <gavinandresen> okey dokey.  I think my years in Silicon Valley made me pretty inured to VC shadiness.
 199 2013-02-28 01:27:03 <HM> yeah
 200 2013-02-28 01:27:19 <HM> it reminds me of a lot of European gambling sites ditching US customers when the US started making it hard for them
 201 2013-02-28 01:27:29 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, oh and when it says he was dismissed his company was not
 202 2013-02-28 01:28:55 <HM> So is the exchaing going to be fractured?
 203 2013-02-28 01:28:59 <HM> exchange*
 204 2013-02-28 01:29:23 <HM> i.e. will US depositors continue to be able to exchange directly with those outside of the US ?
 205 2013-02-28 01:29:50 saivann has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 209 2013-02-28 01:31:49 <HM> I don't like it
 210 2013-02-28 01:32:39 <HM> I don't see how it benefits anyone in the US or otherwise
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 216 2013-02-28 01:38:08 JStoker2 is now known as EvilJStoker
 217 2013-02-28 01:38:26 <discretefx> ;;genrate 700
 218 2013-02-28 01:38:27 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 700.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 3651011.63069, is 0.0964211010839 BTC per day and 0.0040175458785 BTC per hour.
 219 2013-02-28 01:38:36 <phantomcircuit> ;;asks 100
 220 2013-02-28 01:38:38 <gribble> There are currently 54400.029 bitcoins offered at or under 100.0 USD, worth 3155109.42086 USD in total.
 221 2013-02-28 01:38:42 <phantomcircuit> ;;bids 1
 222 2013-02-28 01:38:44 <gribble> There are currently 326527.55 bitcoins demanded at or over 1.0 USD, worth 4111310.71655 USD in total.
 223 2013-02-28 01:38:52 <phantomcircuit> up we go
 224 2013-02-28 01:39:31 da2ce7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 225 2013-02-28 01:40:37 wladston has joined
 226 2013-02-28 01:40:47 da2ce7 has joined
 227 2013-02-28 01:41:17 <wladston> I have a transaction from yesterday night that still didn't confirm. The transaction has a 0.0006 BTC fee. What could have happened ?
 228 2013-02-28 01:41:21 <wladston> http://blockchain.info/tx/1a45fa12a6584db5bdeb87d48acb38b30418aabcb4d6a845bf8f0ef1acaf0530
 229 2013-02-28 01:45:59 <Quazgaa> Luke-Jr: which one should a person use? git master? i let it default to next-test and it says version .7.99 which seems old maybe
 230 2013-02-28 01:48:48 b4tt3r135 has joined
 231 2013-02-28 01:49:45 <Luke-Jr> Quazgaa: generally, most people should use the latest release; so 0.8.0 now
 232 2013-02-28 01:50:13 <Quazgaa> this is why i hate package management, it will be another 3 years before there is an ebuild for .8
 233 2013-02-28 01:50:24 <Quazgaa> so i figured id just install from git
 234 2013-02-28 01:51:39 <Luke-Jr> Quazgaa: 0.8.0 had an ebuild done the day before it was announced..
 235 2013-02-28 01:51:58 <Quazgaa> hmm
 236 2013-02-28 01:52:18 <Quazgaa> maybe this stupid bitcoin overlay is blocking it
 237 2013-02-28 01:52:27 <Quazgaa> is it supposed to be in the overlay or the main deal
 238 2013-02-28 01:52:56 <Luke-Jr> both, but I don't think it's hit the main tree yet
 239 2013-02-28 01:53:07 <Luke-Jr> how is it blocking it?
 240 2013-02-28 01:53:25 <Quazgaa> it was a question not a statement
 241 2013-02-28 01:53:37 <Luke-Jr> the overlay should have 9999* blocked much harder than 0.8.0 ;)
 242 2013-02-28 01:53:42 <Quazgaa> heh
 243 2013-02-28 01:55:12 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 244 2013-02-28 01:55:20 <Quazgaa> oh hmm
 245 2013-02-28 01:55:26 <Quazgaa> i see it now
 246 2013-02-28 01:55:46 swappermall_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 247 2013-02-28 01:55:48 <Quazgaa> was looking with eix but hadnt run eix-update
 248 2013-02-28 01:55:59 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 249 2013-02-28 01:56:44 <Luke-Jr> Quazgaa: I like eix-sync
 250 2013-02-28 01:57:08 <HM> yaourt has more vowels and is therefore better
 251 2013-02-28 01:57:51 <Quazgaa> Luke-Jr: i shall give it a try :P
 252 2013-02-28 01:58:37 <Quazgaa> i better not need to redownload the blockchain or anything dumb after running this questionable git version
 253 2013-02-28 01:58:39 <Quazgaa> :P
 254 2013-02-28 01:59:05 <MC1984> is there any way to tell what kind of clients are connected to your node and what prptocol options theyre using
 255 2013-02-28 01:59:08 <MC1984> bloom etc
 256 2013-02-28 02:00:43 <gmaxwell> MC1984: getpeerinfo
 257 2013-02-28 02:01:06 <gmaxwell> though no bloomstats there yet, though that would be an obvious feature to add.
 258 2013-02-28 02:01:28 <gmaxwell> MC1984: you should totally add some stat with the size of the bloom filter. That would be a fine my-first-pull-request project. :P
 259 2013-02-28 02:01:36 <gmaxwell> it should be one line of code.
 260 2013-02-28 02:02:09 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 261 2013-02-28 02:02:17 <MC1984> :(
 262 2013-02-28 02:02:35 <Luke-Jr> sounds like a good idea for 0.8.1
 263 2013-02-28 02:03:10 <gmaxwell> MC1984: come on, man up. You could do it. :P
 264 2013-02-28 02:04:08 <MC1984> i dont even know where to begin
 265 2013-02-28 02:05:43 <MC1984> i hae an idea of what a bloom filter does, but i dont hae the CS or maths background to undrstand it
 266 2013-02-28 02:06:20 <sipa> understanding is not a prerequisite for cooperation!
 267 2013-02-28 02:06:26 <sipa> well, in this case it may help :)
 268 2013-02-28 02:06:56 <MC1984> i dont even know what the "size" of the filter means
 269 2013-02-28 02:07:14 <MC1984> something about false positives
 270 2013-02-28 02:07:33 <HM> MC1984: the Bitcoin Wallet android app displays protocol version of connected peers
 271 2013-02-28 02:07:38 <kuzetsa> eix ... like the gentoo utility? or a different eix?
 272 2013-02-28 02:07:46 <kuzetsa> hi Luke-Jr, sipa :)
 273 2013-02-28 02:08:23 <sipa> MC1984: the size of the filter is just a number of bits
 274 2013-02-28 02:08:59 <sipa> MC1984: it is related to the false positive rate - the higher the number of elements in the filter per bit of data, the higher the false positive rate
 275 2013-02-28 02:09:05 owowo has joined
 276 2013-02-28 02:12:46 <MC1984> "services" : "00000001",
 277 2013-02-28 02:12:48 <MC1984> wassat
 278 2013-02-28 02:13:03 <sipa> there is currently just one service defined, NODE_NETWORK
 279 2013-02-28 02:13:10 <sipa> which means "full node"
 280 2013-02-28 02:13:16 <sipa> and it has bit 1
 281 2013-02-28 02:13:34 <sipa> the services field is a hex representation of the OR'ing of all service bits
 282 2013-02-28 02:14:18 <MC1984> ah, youve already got stuff in the protocol for identifying different node types
 283 2013-02-28 02:14:33 <sipa> yes
 284 2013-02-28 02:14:50 <sipa> SPV nodes send services=00000000
 285 2013-02-28 02:14:52 <MC1984> holy shit theres a open debug log button here
 286 2013-02-28 02:14:59 <MC1984> no more digging through my home folder!
 287 2013-02-28 02:15:01 <sipa> full nodes send services=00000001
 288 2013-02-28 02:16:29 <MC1984> is it likely that whn i see service=0 that its bitcoinj on android then
 289 2013-02-28 02:16:41 <sipa> just bitcoinj whatsoever
 290 2013-02-28 02:17:03 <MC1984> what else uses it? multibit?
 291 2013-02-28 02:17:17 <sipa> yes
 292 2013-02-28 02:17:24 <sipa> and SD :)
 293 2013-02-28 02:17:39 <MC1984> lol
 294 2013-02-28 02:18:13 <MC1984> so dice doesnt even maintain a chain?
 295 2013-02-28 02:18:27 <sipa> i'm sure (well, i hope...) they have also full nodes running
 296 2013-02-28 02:18:46 <sipa> satoshidice should sell vouchers
 297 2013-02-28 02:18:51 <sipa> they could call it SD cards
 298 2013-02-28 02:18:58 <MC1984> theyve probably got one as a frontend to the network
 299 2013-02-28 02:19:04 <MC1984> ive heard thats a popular trick
 300 2013-02-28 02:19:19 * sipa -> zZzZ
 301 2013-02-28 02:20:02 <MC1984> gnite
 302 2013-02-28 02:20:56 <SomeoneWeird> lol sipa
 303 2013-02-28 02:23:34 <gmaxwell> sipa: instead of having hologram stickers like other bitcoin vouchers, the SD cards should be made of nitrocellulose so if the site is unavailable you can just make your money go up in smoke offline.
 304 2013-02-28 02:23:58 <Luke-Jr> lol
 305 2013-02-28 02:25:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that's a way to make a better dice - sell envelopes that might or might not have cash in them!
 306 2013-02-28 02:25:16 <SomeoneWeird> hahaha gmaxwell
 307 2013-02-28 02:25:19 <Luke-Jr> and the only way to open is to set it on fire
 308 2013-02-28 02:27:39 <HM> you're forgetting about the provably fair bit
 309 2013-02-28 02:29:38 <gmaxwell> HM: so are the users.
 310 2013-02-28 02:30:12 <gmaxwell> no one actually cares about that. otherwise they'd have stopped using the site after the first unpaid winners happened.
 311 2013-02-28 02:30:38 <HM> i didn't realise it had
 312 2013-02-28 02:30:45 <Luke-Jr> lol
 313 2013-02-28 02:31:12 <gmaxwell> see?
 314 2013-02-28 02:31:35 <gmaxwell> HM: when dice was double spent in the past unrelated winners who were paid from the double spend never got paid.
 315 2013-02-28 02:32:52 <etotheipi_> hey, is there a reliable, static link that can be used to "get the latest Bitcoin installer"?
 316 2013-02-28 02:33:30 <etotheipi_> or do I have to do something creative (like parsing the webpage and trying to figure out the latest link)?
 317 2013-02-28 02:33:30 Mandrius has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
 318 2013-02-28 02:33:38 <HM> gmaxwell: i don't play it, i just don't follow these things
 319 2013-02-28 02:33:40 <gmaxwell> oh, it broke $33 today.
 320 2013-02-28 02:33:41 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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 325 2013-02-28 02:42:29 <jgarzik> all time high
 326 2013-02-28 02:42:57 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: how big (filesize) is the Avalon firmware you were sent?
 327 2013-02-28 02:43:14 <jgarzik> -rw-rw-r-- 1 jgarzik jgarzik 3932160 Feb 17 17:43 /g/g/tmp/openwrt-ar71xx-generic-tl-wr703n-v1-squashfs-factory-20130214.bin
 328 2013-02-28 02:43:14 <jgarzik> -rw-rw-r-- 1 jgarzik jgarzik 3932160 Feb 25 01:30 /g/g/tmp/openwrt-ar71xx-generic-tl-wr703n-v1-squashfs-factory-20130225.bin
 329 2013-02-28 02:43:21 <Luke-Jr> ty
 330 2013-02-28 02:47:46 <Nesetalis> so who just moved 20,000 bitcoins in a few hours? o.O
 331 2013-02-28 02:47:48 <Nesetalis> suddenly a buy frenzy
 332 2013-02-28 02:49:24 <MC1984> gmaxwell did those other winners get reimbursed
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 339 2013-02-28 02:59:21 <etotheipi_>  is there a reliable, static link that can be used to "get the latest Bitcoin installer"?
 340 2013-02-28 02:59:37 coolsa_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 341 2013-02-28 02:59:51 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: like for Electrum? or Armory?
 342 2013-02-28 03:00:07 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: for Bitcoin-Qt
 343 2013-02-28 03:00:20 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 344 2013-02-28 03:00:40 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: check SF RSS?
 345 2013-02-28 03:00:43 <etotheipi_> I want to have a direct-download link... but I don't *want* to have to parse the bitcoin.org page and figure out what's the link to the latest version
 346 2013-02-28 03:01:42 <Luke-Jr> SF RSS doesn't have that?
 347 2013-02-28 03:01:49 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin.org != Bitcoin-Qt
 348 2013-02-28 03:02:14 <etotheipi_> I don't know anything about RSS
 349 2013-02-28 03:02:32 <etotheipi_> sounds like my answer is I need to look into sourceforge's RSS
 350 2013-02-28 03:02:32 <Luke-Jr> it's xml
 351 2013-02-28 03:03:34 mb300sd has joined
 352 2013-02-28 03:04:12 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: you got a link for me
 353 2013-02-28 03:04:24 <etotheipi_> I can't seem to find it
 354 2013-02-28 03:05:03 MobiusL has joined
 355 2013-02-28 03:06:11 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 356 2013-02-28 03:06:18 <Luke-Jr> http://sourceforge.net/api/file/index/project-id/244765/mtime/desc/limit/20/rss
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 358 2013-02-28 03:07:00 <etotheipi_> perfect, thanks
 359 2013-02-28 03:07:16 <Luke-Jr> np
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 363 2013-02-28 03:15:27 Tatsuya has joined
 364 2013-02-28 03:18:56 <Tatsuya> hey all - quick question - I'm just starting to learn how to develop bitcoin-apps (I can somewhat program), and to test myself, I want to make a simple app that just prints "transaction received" whenever an address in my wallet receives something. I'm not entirely sure how to set this up: I can connect and call RPC-commands from python script w/ the bitcoin JSON-RPC, but I'm not sure how to make the bitcoin app send
 365 2013-02-28 03:18:57 <Tatsuya>  some sort of signal that it's gotten something
 366 2013-02-28 03:19:38 <Tatsuya> is this something I would need to use libbitcoin for? Or is the best thing to do hack at the original bitcoin d/qt source code?
 367 2013-02-28 03:20:20 <Luke-Jr> Tatsuya: latest git code has a -walletnotify command option
 368 2013-02-28 03:20:26 gritcoin has joined
 369 2013-02-28 03:20:37 <gmaxwell> Absent walletnotify the easiest thing to do right now is to just poll.
 370 2013-02-28 03:20:52 <Luke-Jr> libbitcoin might work, but no idea what the state of it is
 371 2013-02-28 03:21:09 <Tatsuya> Luke-Jr - latest git code for bitcoind?
 372 2013-02-28 03:21:11 <Tatsuya> thanks guys
 373 2013-02-28 03:21:15 <Luke-Jr> yes
 374 2013-02-28 03:21:22 <Tatsuya> yeah, I figured I could poll but what wondering if there might be a better way
 375 2013-02-28 03:21:27 <gmaxwell> unmaintained and insecure.
 376 2013-02-28 03:21:28 <Tatsuya> to raise an interrupt or something
 377 2013-02-28 03:21:40 <Tatsuya> which is unmaintained and insecure?
 378 2013-02-28 03:21:47 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 379 2013-02-28 03:21:56 <gmaxwell> libbitcoin.
 380 2013-02-28 03:22:20 <Tatsuya> ah
 381 2013-02-28 03:22:25 <Tatsuya> thank you for the heads up
 382 2013-02-28 03:23:50 <Tatsuya> anyways, cheers guys, back to futzing around
 383 2013-02-28 03:24:23 GI_Jack has joined
 384 2013-02-28 03:24:26 <GI_Jack> I get this error what is this "Displayed Transations may not be correct! you may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade"
 385 2013-02-28 03:24:38 <GI_Jack> I have version 0.8.0.0
 386 2013-02-28 03:24:45 moore_ has joined
 387 2013-02-28 03:24:47 <Luke-Jr> GI_Jack: upload your debug.log somewhere
 388 2013-02-28 03:28:14 b4tt3r135 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
 389 2013-02-28 03:29:50 B0g4r7 has joined
 390 2013-02-28 03:31:04 <GI_Jack> InvalidChainFound: invalid block=000000000000042983d8e69e43a629272d2ca8614041b198589c$
 391 2013-02-28 03:33:35 <Luke-Jr> not enough
 392 2013-02-28 03:34:40 <gmaxwell> GI_Jack: thats interesting but we need the log!
 393 2013-02-28 03:34:48 <GI_Jack> https://pastee.org/bhr7p
 394 2013-02-28 03:35:59 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED looks fishy
 395 2013-02-28 03:36:43 <gmaxwell> that log isn't useful. :(
 396 2013-02-28 03:36:54 <GI_Jack> :(
 397 2013-02-28 03:37:14 <gmaxwell> it's stuck at 202226 and the first failure is block 223333
 398 2013-02-28 03:37:28 <gmaxwell> GI_Jack: do you have any log data before that or is the top of the paste the top of your file?
 399 2013-02-28 03:37:40 <GI_Jack> no, thats the ENTIRE file
 400 2013-02-28 03:37:46 <gmaxwell> GI_Jack: also, whats the history of this node? what was it running before?
 401 2013-02-28 03:37:48 <GI_Jack> ctr-a ctl-v
 402 2013-02-28 03:37:50 <gmaxwell> when was it upgraded?
 403 2013-02-28 03:37:55 <gmaxwell> any other issues or system crashes?
 404 2013-02-28 03:38:34 <gmaxwell> GI_Jack: in any case, its easy to fix this problem in 0.8.
 405 2013-02-28 03:38:59 <gmaxwell> The reason your log doesn't have more is that you restarted at least once since it wedged and it rotated the log so that start of the failure isn't there.
 406 2013-02-28 03:39:29 <gmaxwell> GI_Jack: are you in a hurry to fix it or can you try to test some stuff first?
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 408 2013-02-28 03:44:13 <GI_Jack> gmaxwell, about to logoff
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 432 2013-02-28 04:28:37 <Quazgaa> ok i installed 0.8.0
 433 2013-02-28 04:28:49 <Quazgaa> still only displays a pure black window
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 447 2013-02-28 05:12:25 <Kireji> is there a mailing list that will go batshit when a security hole is found and update us about the latest version of bitcoind to be running?
 448 2013-02-28 05:12:37 <Kireji> I wanna be on that list
 449 2013-02-28 05:12:45 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: watch https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/CVEs
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 453 2013-02-28 05:16:08 <Kireji> thanks
 454 2013-02-28 05:18:18 <Kireji> I ind it difficult to believe there are no CVEs affecting 0.8
 455 2013-02-28 05:20:31 <gmaxwell> Kireji: why??
 456 2013-02-28 05:20:49 <gmaxwell> Do you think we'd ship software that was known vulnerable?
 457 2013-02-28 05:20:57 <gmaxwell> or that lots of things are going to be found in a week?
 458 2013-02-28 05:22:06 tatsuya has joined
 459 2013-02-28 05:22:37 abrkn has joined
 460 2013-02-28 05:22:39 * egecko chucles
 461 2013-02-28 05:22:46 <egecko> grr
 462 2013-02-28 05:22:49 * egecko chuckles
 463 2013-02-28 05:24:00 <Luke-Jr> fwiw, CVE-2012-1910 is fixed on over 99.5% of the network now
 464 2013-02-28 05:24:52 <Kireji> hmmm
 465 2013-02-28 05:25:23 <Kireji> no, but I get the distinct sense the wiki page is sanitized to not show existing vulnerabilities before they've been patched
 466 2013-02-28 05:25:48 <Kireji> AND I expect bitcoin clients are a bery high value target for people looking vulnerabilities
 467 2013-02-28 05:25:55 <Kireji> *very
 468 2013-02-28 05:26:37 <petertodd> As opposed to getting a CVE # assigned and scaring people into upgrading?
 469 2013-02-28 05:27:12 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: 0.8's only been out like a week
 470 2013-02-28 05:27:46 <gmaxwell> Kireji: that isn't how we operate. Even when we have a issue where details aren't being disclosed, we still will log a CVE number and warn people that a fix is incoming.
 471 2013-02-28 05:27:51 freakazoid has joined
 472 2013-02-28 05:27:51 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: and the wiki page has everything public. to get private pre-announcements, you have to convince Gavin you need to know
 473 2013-02-28 05:29:23 <Kireji> I don't really.  rather have a team of people working on it and keeping it secure
 474 2013-02-28 05:29:39 <petertodd> What makes you think there isn't a team working on it?
 475 2013-02-28 05:29:45 edwincheese has joined
 476 2013-02-28 05:29:52 <Kireji> petertodd: I do expect there is
 477 2013-02-28 05:30:38 <petertodd> Gavin's paid to do Bitcoin full time, and the rest of the core dev team is very responsive.
 478 2013-02-28 05:30:47 <Kireji> more than expect, I'm quite sure they're all people because I've emailed with them in the past
 479 2013-02-28 05:31:02 * Kireji nods
 480 2013-02-28 05:31:53 <Kireji> In the past I have not run a client full time, rather just when I needed to run transactions.  with 0.8, there has been a call to run 0.8 as it helps the android clients get running
 481 2013-02-28 05:32:10 paybitcoin has joined
 482 2013-02-28 05:32:34 <Kireji> so I'm running it full time on machines that have other sensitive data.  If there's a hole, I want to know about it as soon as possible to shut down my clients, that's all
 483 2013-02-28 05:32:43 tatsuya has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 484 2013-02-28 05:32:49 <Quazgaa> how come all my qt apps just display a blank black window :\
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 490 2013-02-28 05:46:23 <tatsuya> er nope
 491 2013-02-28 05:46:46 <tatsuya> sorry, I think I got disconnected, posted
 492 2013-02-28 05:46:55 <tatsuya> hmmm - I seem to be having trouble with the following tag/command: -blocknotify "python ~/devel/btcplay/txresponse.py >> /tmp/btc_debug_lot2.txt" which works if I just call it from the terminal
 493 2013-02-28 05:46:59 <tatsuya> getting  "sh: 1: python ~/devel/btcplay/txresponse.py >> /tmp/btc_debug_lot2.txt: not found
 494 2013-02-28 05:48:58 <gmaxwell> blocknotify isn't a shell.  you should just invoke a script directly not try redirection
 495 2013-02-28 05:49:16 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
 496 2013-02-28 05:50:06 <gmaxwell> Kireji: AFAIR we have never had a vulnerability that could have resulted in that kind of compromise. Though I would strongly discourage you from running someplace you're worried about. Better to be safe than sorry
 497 2013-02-28 05:50:34 <gmaxwell> Kireji: one more node isn't going to make or break the android wallets. You could better help by encouraging more people to upgrade.
 498 2013-02-28 05:51:12 QM has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 499 2013-02-28 05:53:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: blocknotify isn't a shell? <.<
 500 2013-02-28 05:54:09 <tatsuya> I got confused by https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/743
 501 2013-02-28 05:54:24 <tatsuya> gavin used the example: ./bitcoind -blocknotify="./bitcoind getblock %s >> /tmp/blocks.txt"
 502 2013-02-28 05:54:32 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 503 2013-02-28 05:55:19 <gmaxwell> hm. I didn't go look at the code— maybe it does invoke the shell (if so, how does that work in windows?)
 504 2013-02-28 05:55:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: however system() works on Windows ;)
 505 2013-02-28 05:55:33 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
 506 2013-02-28 05:55:44 <Luke-Jr> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/277bwbdz(v=vs.71).aspx
 507 2013-02-28 05:56:14 <Luke-Jr> tatsuya: maybe Python isn't in your default non-interactive path
 508 2013-02-28 05:56:33 <Luke-Jr> actually…
 509 2013-02-28 05:56:41 <Luke-Jr> looks more like double-quoting from that error :/
 510 2013-02-28 05:56:50 <tatsuya> hrmnn
 511 2013-02-28 05:57:09 <tatsuya> oh
 512 2013-02-28 05:57:16 <tatsuya> it should be two single quotes?
 513 2013-02-28 05:57:27 <tatsuya> sorry x_x I'm new to working in linux
 514 2013-02-28 05:59:10 <Luke-Jr> in the config file, probably none
 515 2013-02-28 05:59:19 <Luke-Jr> could be bitcoind is erroneously adding escaping too
 516 2013-02-28 05:59:42 <tatsuya> oh
 517 2013-02-28 05:59:47 <tatsuya> I'll play with that, thanks
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 520 2013-02-28 06:02:01 <tatsuya> Luke-Jr thanks! Getting rid of the quotes in bitcoin.conf did the trick
 521 2013-02-28 06:02:38 <nanotube> <Kireji> so I'm running it full time on machines that have other sensitive data. <- well, maybe you should not do that. have you any machines that don't have sensitive data? :)
 522 2013-02-28 06:02:41 <tatsuya> my bitcoin.conf now uses the line: blocknotify = python ~/devel/btcplay/txresponse.py (I got rid of the redirection too, but will try with it)
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 525 2013-02-28 06:05:15 <muhoo> i keep treating bitcoin like a currency, not a speculative investment. maybe that's an error. look at that price go!
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 546 2013-02-28 06:41:18 <Quazgaa> is there a way to throttle bitcoin
 547 2013-02-28 06:41:29 <Quazgaa> i think its saturating my upstream
 548 2013-02-28 06:42:07 <Eliel_> you'll have to do it with some software external to bitcoin.
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 550 2013-02-28 06:42:52 <Quazgaa> i see
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 559 2013-02-28 07:00:19 <gmaxwell> Quazgaa: turn off listening and that generally takes care of it
 560 2013-02-28 07:00:30 <Quazgaa> i see
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 568 2013-02-28 07:12:57 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: btw, has anyone suggested a debt-based overlay network like ripple builtin to bitcoin yet? :p
 569 2013-02-28 07:12:58 <Diablo-D3> http://boingboing.net/2013/02/27/introducing-mandroid-google.html
 570 2013-02-28 07:13:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: and automatically settling on the blockchain when debt reaches its limits
 571 2013-02-28 07:16:24 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, various people have suggested that to me
 572 2013-02-28 07:16:32 <phantomcircuit> most were in a drunked haze
 573 2013-02-28 07:16:38 <Luke-Jr> lol
 574 2013-02-28 07:17:06 <phantomcircuit> i believe you could actually make that work, but only if people really were willing to accept the credit risk
 575 2013-02-28 07:17:10 <phantomcircuit> which most people aren't actually
 576 2013-02-28 07:17:33 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: well, the idea would be it'd be mostly transparent and you could still use the blockchain directly without trusting anyone
 577 2013-02-28 07:17:47 <Luke-Jr> but you could say "I trust Joe with as much as 50 BTC before confirming"
 578 2013-02-28 07:17:54 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, ripple is fundamentally about extending people credit
 579 2013-02-28 07:17:57 <Luke-Jr> and it'd figure out a path from A to B using such loans
 580 2013-02-28 07:18:16 <phantomcircuit> without actually extending credit (ie without risk of loss) you're left with .. bitcoin?
 581 2013-02-28 07:18:17 <Luke-Jr> showing the end-result balance immediately
 582 2013-02-28 07:18:33 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: right, but if you hide the credit..
 583 2013-02-28 07:18:40 <phantomcircuit> oh you mean a trust overlay for unconfirmed transactions?
 584 2013-02-28 07:18:45 <Luke-Jr> so you're just trusting people close to you not to double-spend
 585 2013-02-28 07:18:58 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: except you wouldn't bother encoding it in trasnaction format until you settle
 586 2013-02-28 07:19:20 <Luke-Jr> this way, if the path from A to you and from B to you both go through C, you get one transaction from C
 587 2013-02-28 07:19:24 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, i've actually proposed that a number of times
 588 2013-02-28 07:19:41 <phantomcircuit> and it work of already exists in the form of green addresses and intersango proof of transfer tickets
 589 2013-02-28 07:19:55 <Luke-Jr> that's not the same thing, green addresses should die :P
 590 2013-02-28 07:20:22 <Luke-Jr> with this concept, nothing would hit the blockchain until the trust was "overflowed"
 591 2013-02-28 07:20:30 <Luke-Jr> or maybe a timeout per week or something
 592 2013-02-28 07:20:36 <phantomcircuit> the issue with a more explicit trust network is that it would greatly reduce anonymity as it necessarily requires that transactions be signed with your real identity
 593 2013-02-28 07:21:04 <Luke-Jr> only the temporary "transactions" outside of the blockchain
 594 2013-02-28 07:21:11 <Luke-Jr> and Bitcoin does not provide anonymity.
 595 2013-02-28 07:21:17 <Luke-Jr> it's not a goal, so ..
 596 2013-02-28 07:21:19 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, there are various schemes to implement such a system with varying degrees of complexity and varying degrees of relative risk
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 600 2013-02-28 07:22:23 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, actually ironically i think satoshi dice has signifcantly increased the anonymity of the average user by massively increasing the noise level
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 602 2013-02-28 07:22:37 <Luke-Jr> …
 603 2013-02-28 07:22:38 <phantomcircuit> there are now thousands of times as many interconnected transactions as there were before
 604 2013-02-28 07:23:09 <phantomcircuit> and anybody trying to do address correlation analysis will quickly find that the transaction network is NOT acyclic
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 606 2013-02-28 07:23:19 <phantomcircuit> which significantly increases the cost of analysis
 607 2013-02-28 07:23:37 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: or you can just filter out SD as if it never existed..
 608 2013-02-28 07:23:51 <phantomcircuit> well no you cant because your target might have used sd
 609 2013-02-28 07:24:00 <phantomcircuit> (in fact it's very likely they have)
 610 2013-02-28 07:24:37 <phantomcircuit> you can try to do win/loss analysis and just bridge those transactions
 611 2013-02-28 07:24:51 <Luke-Jr> try? it's easy.
 612 2013-02-28 07:24:52 <phantomcircuit> but it's relatively expensive compared to naive address correlation analsysis
 613 2013-02-28 07:27:20 <Quazgaa> i like to fingerpaint
 614 2013-02-28 07:29:20 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, would you like to build a debt based overlay network?
 615 2013-02-28 07:29:25 <phantomcircuit> it really wouldn't be very hard
 616 2013-02-28 07:29:31 <phantomcircuit> im pretty sure it would be illegal though
 617 2013-02-28 07:29:38 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: not sure it helps tonal along
 618 2013-02-28 07:29:43 <Luke-Jr> how could it possibly be illegal?
 619 2013-02-28 07:29:50 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, well
 620 2013-02-28 07:30:00 <phantomcircuit> each debt link is really a contract to cover
 621 2013-02-28 07:30:05 <phantomcircuit> which is transfered to another party
 622 2013-02-28 07:30:23 <phantomcircuit> that's more or less the exact intended definition of a security
 623 2013-02-28 07:30:32 <phantomcircuit> so if you were going to do this you would want clearance from the SEC
 624 2013-02-28 07:30:35 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: meh, it wouldn't really be debt though
 625 2013-02-28 07:30:40 <Luke-Jr> just off-chain transactions
 626 2013-02-28 07:30:43 <phantomcircuit> and i don know about you but i dont have the time for that nonsense
 627 2013-02-28 07:31:53 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, practically you would probably need to setup trust anchors, ie trusted nodes for when there is no path between peers
 628 2013-02-28 07:32:12 <phantomcircuit> for that you would obviously be construed as a money transmitter
 629 2013-02-28 07:32:26 <phantomcircuit> (notice this setup is essentially identical to hwuala (sp?))
 630 2013-02-28 07:32:39 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: when there is no path, they send a regular transaction and wait 6 confirms
 631 2013-02-28 07:32:57 <phantomcircuit> hawala
 632 2013-02-28 07:33:16 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, hmm that is an interesting solution to the otherwise thorny legal problem
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 673 2013-02-28 08:17:53 <Luke-Jr> [Notice] -ChanServ- Examples: \n [Notice] -ChanServ-     /msg ChanServ UNQUIET #chat Diablo-D3
 674 2013-02-28 08:18:02 <Luke-Jr> is Diablo-D3 the example UNQUIET target for everyone? O.o
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 677 2013-02-28 08:22:02 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: wtf?
 678 2013-02-28 08:22:13 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: yeah, that was my thought too
 679 2013-02-28 08:22:22 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: /msg chanserv help unquiet
 680 2013-02-28 08:23:53 * Diablo-D3 facepalms
 681 2013-02-28 08:24:18 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: freenode staff love me.
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 684 2013-02-28 08:24:34 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: same for you?
 685 2013-02-28 08:24:38 <Diablo-D3> yes
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 687 2013-02-28 08:24:45 <Luke-Jr> lol
 688 2013-02-28 08:25:14 <Luke-Jr> example hostmask for QUIET is all AOL users lol
 689 2013-02-28 08:25:44 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
 690 2013-02-28 08:26:26 * Diablo-D3 waits for food to cook
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 697 2013-02-28 08:34:03 <rs0> is there a maximum size for an individual block in the blockchain? if so, how is spillover handled?
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 702 2013-02-28 08:47:41 <Diablo-D3> rs0: yes, and there is no spillover
 703 2013-02-28 08:47:48 <Diablo-D3> the transactions simply dont make it into the block
 704 2013-02-28 08:48:08 <Diablo-D3> rs0: transactions dont target a specific block before they're included in one
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 707 2013-02-28 09:00:02 <rs0> it seems like that would limit the throughput of the network. or would the "supply and demand" of bitcoin transactions be equilibrated by the transaction fees?
 708 2013-02-28 09:00:46 <Diablo-D3> rs0: when bitcoins stop being produced sometime in the 2100s
 709 2013-02-28 09:00:51 <Diablo-D3> fees will drive mining
 710 2013-02-28 09:01:42 <rs0> right, but blocks are supposed to be discovered every ten minutes on average
 711 2013-02-28 09:01:52 <rs0> i'm not sure exactly how many transactions you can fit into a 1MB block
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 714 2013-02-28 09:02:04 <rs0> but you could only have that many transactions per ten minutes across the network on average, right?
 715 2013-02-28 09:12:06 <Diablo-D3> rs0: transaction size isnt fixed
 716 2013-02-28 09:12:10 <Diablo-D3> it depends on the number of inputs
 717 2013-02-28 09:12:17 <Diablo-D3> outputs are usually just 2, target and change
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 744 2013-02-28 10:01:40 <Luke-Jr> rs0: not all transactions need to be on the blockchain
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 775 2013-02-28 10:44:01 <nOgAnOo> Sell when it's high!
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 777 2013-02-28 10:45:51 <Luke-Jr> wrong channel
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 806 2013-02-28 11:22:14 <sipa> ;;genrate 600
 807 2013-02-28 11:22:15 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 600.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 3651011.63069, is 0.0826466580719 BTC per day and 0.003443610753 BTC per hour.
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 825 2013-02-28 12:07:57 <RBecker> whoever suggested i switch my drives from ide to ahci, i did
 826 2013-02-28 12:10:25 <denisx> RBecker: it was not me but I would also suggest it
 827 2013-02-28 12:12:00 <RBecker> i need to rerun the speed test
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 829 2013-02-28 12:12:46 <RBecker> that's a hell of a lot faster
 830 2013-02-28 12:14:56 <denisx> RBecker: yes, now you have things like NCQ
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 865 2013-02-28 13:00:37 <ciphermonk> Hi there. I'm running bitcoind on testnet (0.8.0) on my VPS. My laptop's bitcoind testnet (0.8.0) just flagged my VPS s misbehaving because he relayed an invalid transaction. If I'm running "stock" bitcoind, can this happen? The error I see from the logs is that "vin" was empty
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 868 2013-02-28 13:04:23 <ciphermonk> did anyone else just received an invalid transaction from 199.26.85.40 on testnet3? maybe 5 minutes ago?
 869 2013-02-28 13:04:48 <sipa> ciphermonk: can you paste the exact message?
 870 2013-02-28 13:05:47 <ciphermonk> ERROR: CTransaction::CheckTransaction() : vin empty
 871 2013-02-28 13:05:53 <ciphermonk> ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : CheckTransaction failed
 872 2013-02-28 13:05:59 <ciphermonk> Misbehaving: 199.26.85.40:18333 (0 -> 10)
 873 2013-02-28 13:06:45 <sipa> was that a transaction you created yourself, or was it just relayed?
 874 2013-02-28 13:07:07 <ciphermonk> It was relayed
 875 2013-02-28 13:07:34 <sipa> that is very strange
 876 2013-02-28 13:07:42 <ciphermonk> oh - let me confirm that
 877 2013-02-28 13:08:42 antix_ has joined
 878 2013-02-28 13:09:11 <sipa> i can think of two possible causes (both unlikely, and both indicating a bug): 1) the bloom filtering stuff relays block, and sends the coinbase as a separate transaction  2) the raw transaction API allowed you to create a tx without inputs and send it
 879 2013-02-28 13:12:26 sneak has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 880 2013-02-28 13:12:33 <ciphermonk> yeah I'm looking at some code I have running on that vps. It's using the raw transaction API of bitcoind to send transactions. However, it shouldn't build a transaction if there's no inputs.
 881 2013-02-28 13:13:01 <ciphermonk> I'll try to force some transaction through, and see what happens
 882 2013-02-28 13:14:02 <sipa> if that is the cause, it's certainly a bug that needs fixing
 883 2013-02-28 13:14:25 <ciphermonk> ok, I'll do as much investigation on that as I can
 884 2013-02-28 13:15:53 grau has joined
 885 2013-02-28 13:16:42 <ciphermonk> I'm also mining on that vps btw
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 887 2013-02-28 13:18:27 <Luke-Jr> sounds like a good way to get your service suspended :p
 888 2013-02-28 13:19:59 <ciphermonk> lol
 889 2013-02-28 13:20:48 <sipa> indeed
 890 2013-02-28 13:21:49 <ciphermonk> I'll see if my provider complains ;) for now it's quite useful to have it turned on
 891 2013-02-28 13:25:04 <HM> lol CPU mining on a VPS :|
 892 2013-02-28 13:25:21 <HM> when you get a block, i'll buy you a beer
 893 2013-02-28 13:26:01 <ciphermonk> it's testnet mining
 894 2013-02-28 13:26:31 <ciphermonk> I got loads of testnet block already :)
 895 2013-02-28 13:28:57 * HM retracts his offer
 896 2013-02-28 13:31:19 <grau> sipa: I found a small problem in BIP32 wiki
 897 2013-02-28 13:32:42 <grau> sipa: in case of generating private from private:  kn is equal to IL*kpar - should add mod N
 898 2013-02-28 13:33:44 <sipa> grau: agree, i should clarify that; however:
 899 2013-02-28 13:33:45 <sipa> Variables below are either:
 900 2013-02-28 13:33:46 <sipa> integers modulo the order of the curve, serialized as 32 bytes, most significant byte first.
 901 2013-02-28 13:34:18 <grau> yes. I think it would help if it would be explicit there
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 903 2013-02-28 13:35:50 <sipa> grau: ok, it's on my todo list
 904 2013-02-28 13:36:16 <grau> Have now implemented the hierarchical wallet with it. Really a great proposal thank you.
 905 2013-02-28 13:37:32 BTCOxygen has joined
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 907 2013-02-28 13:44:14 <sipa> grau: i'm glad (and somewhat surprised) to see how many people have 'found' it and decided to support it already (when finalized)
 908 2013-02-28 13:45:13 <grau> It is elegant and it is adressing a real mess of current wallet, since you no longer have to backup othe rthan master.
 909 2013-02-28 13:45:55 <grau> Probably you need to keep track of hierarchy if you create one. but most wont.
 910 2013-02-28 13:46:20 Gabit has joined
 911 2013-02-28 13:46:28 <sipa> i'm generally opposed to the idea of having the blockchain be your wallet, and only retain the master
 912 2013-02-28 13:46:56 <sipa> though it's designed not to lose funds in the case of a lost wallet, you do lose the hierarchy and other things
 913 2013-02-28 13:47:06 <sipa> but of course, use it like you want
 914 2013-02-28 13:47:29 <grau> do not get your first sentence.
 915 2013-02-28 13:47:49 <grau> No matter what wallet you use its pseudorandom. This one is just practical too.
 916 2013-02-28 13:48:03 <Gabit> Hi guys, I've gotta tiny problem here. Tx is valid in blockchain, but it wont register in my wallet. Tried -rescan but no sigar. Ideas what to do next?
 917 2013-02-28 13:48:05 sneak has joined
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 920 2013-02-28 13:48:16 <sipa> Gabit: is your local blockchain synced?
 921 2013-02-28 13:48:26 <Gabit> 0.8. and yes, its synct
 922 2013-02-28 13:48:49 <sipa> is the transaction confirmed?
 923 2013-02-28 13:48:52 <Gabit> yes
 924 2013-02-28 13:48:59 <Gabit> wait
 925 2013-02-28 13:49:21 <Gabit> aaah no it is not
 926 2013-02-28 13:49:44 <Gabit> phew... I was scared for a sec here.
 927 2013-02-28 13:50:01 <Gabit> thanks.
 928 2013-02-28 13:50:29 <Gabit> now i feel like total noob :P
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 933 2013-02-28 13:54:36 <Truc> Hi. I really like how fast the new 0.8 client is but it chokes my cgminer threads when it's downloading/processing the blockchain. Could we get an -affinity switch?
 934 2013-02-28 13:55:46 <sipa> Truc: limit the number of CPU threads with -par
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 936 2013-02-28 14:04:40 <ciphermonk> I still don't have any conclusive evidence on my glitch, but it seems that by laptop bitcoin sent a transaction to my vps bitcoin with inputs which were already spent (I don't have an explanation yet on how that happened). Then my vps sent the transaction with empty inputs to my laptop, causing my vps to be flagged as misbehaving. I can not confirm yet that both events are correlated. I'm trying to reproduce the glitch.
 937 2013-02-28 14:05:01 Gabit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 938 2013-02-28 14:06:35 <Truc> sipa: Thanks! I didn't see that one.
 939 2013-02-28 14:07:04 <HM> I've read BIP0032 a number of times and still don't get what it really means.
 940 2013-02-28 14:09:12 <HM> What use is an extended public key on its own? All you can do is hash it produce Il and Ir for a number of 'n'. :S
 941 2013-02-28 14:09:44 <sipa> HM: the use of an extended public key is the ability to derive all public subkeys
 942 2013-02-28 14:10:19 <sipa> there's a few use cases at the bottom
 943 2013-02-28 14:10:49 <HM> but how? you need to do  IL*kpar. to calculate Kn
 944 2013-02-28 14:10:58 <HM> if you don't have Kpar you can't do that
 945 2013-02-28 14:11:16 <sipa> there's public derivation using CKD'
 946 2013-02-28 14:11:33 <sipa> which computes an extended pubkey from an extended pubkey + child id
 947 2013-02-28 14:12:45 <HM> so Kpar in the 2nd form is now a public key
 948 2013-02-28 14:12:54 <sipa> yes
 949 2013-02-28 14:12:59 <sipa> k = private, K = public
 950 2013-02-28 14:13:25 <HM> so the hash just obscures the chain code
 951 2013-02-28 14:13:37 <HM> and makes child pubkeys more indeterminable
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 954 2013-02-28 14:15:41 <HM> Hmm
 955 2013-02-28 14:18:10 paraipan has joined
 956 2013-02-28 14:18:33 <ciphermonk> Coffee is closing. I'll move somewhere else
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 960 2013-02-28 14:20:40 <HM> right i see now
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 962 2013-02-28 14:22:00 <HM> Kn = kn*G because Il*kpar*G = Il*Kpar
 963 2013-02-28 14:22:48 <HM> sipa: why does it have to use multiplication? Doesn't ket splitting basically do the same with +?
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 969 2013-02-28 14:29:45 <HM> Short of iterating all 'n' there's no way to know if someone using your chain code is issuing addresses you can determine the public key for. so why not use "k*G + c*G = (K + c)*G" for deterministic 'c'?
 970 2013-02-28 14:30:20 <HM> *private key for
 971 2013-02-28 14:35:36 <grau> HM: this is why I implemented it with requirement that only sequential children are used. https://github.com/bitsofproof/supernode/blob/master/api/src/main/java/com/bitsofproof/supernode/api/Wallet.java
 972 2013-02-28 14:36:33 <HM> right so you ensure n is a counter
 973 2013-02-28 14:36:43 <grau> yes
 974 2013-02-28 14:36:50 <grau> so you know the last used
 975 2013-02-28 14:37:24 [\\\] has joined
 976 2013-02-28 14:37:27 <grau> and able to recreate the potetial address set recursively over the hierarchies
 977 2013-02-28 14:37:50 <HM> i think the answer to why point addition isn't used is because k*G + c1*G + c2*G + c1*G would be equal to k*G again?
 978 2013-02-28 14:38:04 <HM> so anyone with 2 child pubkeys could work out the parent pubkey?
 979 2013-02-28 14:38:11 <HM> or something
 980 2013-02-28 14:38:29 <sipa> HM: addition should work as well, i guess
 981 2013-02-28 14:38:55 swappermall_ has joined
 982 2013-02-28 14:39:13 <sipa> somehow i used multiplication from the start, and there was probably a reason for that
 983 2013-02-28 14:39:17 swappermall_ is now known as Guest41904
 984 2013-02-28 14:39:18 <grau> I suggest extended key should be a triple of (key, chainCode, maxSequence) so it is bounded
 985 2013-02-28 14:39:32 <HM> hmm
 986 2013-02-28 14:39:50 <HM> well if 'n' is made public anyway it's not difficult to check
 987 2013-02-28 14:40:26 <grau> If you were to provide a master for audit you have to tell bounds
 988 2013-02-28 14:43:11 <HM> hmm
 989 2013-02-28 14:43:44 <HM> actually you couldn't figure out the parent if you used + because you need it to calculate c regardless.
 990 2013-02-28 14:44:12 <HM> i'm slowly grokking EC arithmetic
 991 2013-02-28 14:46:59 <HM> n doesn't have to be the limit of this does it. if you're a web service you could use n + hash(username)
 992 2013-02-28 14:47:18 <HM> n || hash(username) rather
 993 2013-02-28 14:47:43 <HM> you can basically construct the hierarchy with the same technique anyway you want
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 998 2013-02-28 14:58:37 <HM> grau: It's a shame you can't quickly filter all transactions to determine whether it concerns on of your grandchild wallets
 999 2013-02-28 14:59:02 <HM> the fact that strandard transactions use hashes mean you'd have to compute every possible grandchild :|
1000 2013-02-28 14:59:58 <HM> if you were a organisation that wanted to sit in the blockchain and efficiently monitor all your subwallets you still can't do it without doing that
1001 2013-02-28 15:00:45 <sipa> i think that if it were possible to do it more efficiently, you'd need to give up privacy as well
1002 2013-02-28 15:01:38 nus- has joined
1003 2013-02-28 15:02:09 <grau> HM: yes, but at least I built a server that indexes transactions by adresses so it is quick to get that subset.
1004 2013-02-28 15:02:44 <grau> provided you computed the address set
1005 2013-02-28 15:03:08 davout_ has joined
1006 2013-02-28 15:03:09 <HM> i suppose you could require all child wallets to meet some criteria
1007 2013-02-28 15:03:30 <grau> me? not.
1008 2013-02-28 15:03:50 <HM> lol not you specifically
1009 2013-02-28 15:04:00 <HM> For quickly determining whether a transaction concerns one of your deterministic wallets
1010 2013-02-28 15:04:49 <grau> I extract the bounded address set of the wallet and register listener to the server that is optimized to do that notification and retrival
1011 2013-02-28 15:05:28 nus-- has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1012 2013-02-28 15:05:31 <etotheipi_> btw, you don't use addition in crypto operations, because it's invertible
1013 2013-02-28 15:05:32 davout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1014 2013-02-28 15:05:45 <sipa> etotheipi_: so is multiplication with a known number
1015 2013-02-28 15:05:52 <etotheipi_> sipa: no it's not
1016 2013-02-28 15:05:58 <sipa> it is
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1018 2013-02-28 15:06:05 <etotheipi_> you gotta solve the discrete log problem when you multiply a point by a number
1019 2013-02-28 15:06:08 <sipa> no
1020 2013-02-28 15:06:14 <sipa> you just multiply by its inverse
1021 2013-02-28 15:06:36 <sipa> DLP is about finding the number n in X=n*Y
1022 2013-02-28 15:06:43 <etotheipi_> sipa: right
1023 2013-02-28 15:06:57 <etotheipi_> ooh, you're talking about already-known n
1024 2013-02-28 15:07:11 <sipa> yes
1025 2013-02-28 15:07:27 <sipa> or a small enough number to be iterable
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1029 2013-02-28 15:12:54 <HM> I suppose bloom filtering transactions will scale for quite some time to come
1030 2013-02-28 15:13:54 <gavinandresen> it should scale forever
1031 2013-02-28 15:14:17 <HM> right, but the bloom filter will need to grow
1032 2013-02-28 15:14:31 <HM> else it becomes less effective
1033 2013-02-28 15:14:36 davout_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1034 2013-02-28 15:15:41 <gavinandresen> tiny bloom filters will support any imaginable future transaction volume…
1035 2013-02-28 15:15:56 <sipa> gavinandresen: but but... if the number of tx/block grows doubly-exponentially, the size of the bloom filter paths will grow _quadratically_ OMG
1036 2013-02-28 15:16:17 <sipa> eh merkle paths
1037 2013-02-28 15:18:26 <HM> doesn't the bloom filter need to scale with the number of keys peers are interested in, not transaction volume?
1038 2013-02-28 15:18:36 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1039 2013-02-28 15:19:00 <sipa> indeed
1040 2013-02-28 15:19:28 <sipa> well, as transaction volume increases, a constant false positive rate will result in higher unwanted volume
1041 2013-02-28 15:19:32 <HM> i mean lookups have to scale with transaction volume, but the actual effectiveness of the filter is determined by the number of interesting keys
1042 2013-02-28 15:19:47 agricocb has joined
1043 2013-02-28 15:19:51 <sipa> so you may want filters with lower and lower fp rate
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1045 2013-02-28 15:20:00 <sipa> for a given privacy/efficiency level
1046 2013-02-28 15:20:06 <HM> ah true true
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1048 2013-02-28 15:22:45 agricocb has joined
1049 2013-02-28 15:24:30 <HM> So i suppose if you had a million determistic wallets, you could create a (local) bloom filter for them and populate it once.
1050 2013-02-28 15:24:34 <HM> that's be pretty damn efficient
1051 2013-02-28 15:25:49 <sipa> irony: running a bitcoind + bitcoinj wallet with many keys may now actually be more efficient than having the same wallet in bitcoind...
1052 2013-02-28 15:26:05 <sipa> as the latter won't use a bloom filter to match wallet transactions
1053 2013-02-28 15:26:17 moe1111 has joined
1054 2013-02-28 15:26:33 <jouke> :o
1055 2013-02-28 15:26:40 <HM> right, bloom filtering is p2p
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1057 2013-02-28 15:28:05 <sipa> well, the former won't use a bloom filter to match wallet transactions either
1058 2013-02-28 15:28:39 <sipa> but it will only see a filtered set of transactions
1059 2013-02-28 15:31:40 <HM> the advantage of bloom filtering for deterministic wallets btw is you wouldn't have to keep any public keys online. so it'd be harder for someone to steal your customer wallet list. if you get a hit, you could just store it for later
1060 2013-02-28 15:32:10 <grau> HM: I consider this idea, thanks
1061 2013-02-28 15:32:58 <grau> I could send the master pubkey to server to construct filtering
1062 2013-02-28 15:33:28 <HM> it's half baked
1063 2013-02-28 15:34:02 <HM> i was just thinking that with most services, say MtGox, they presumably keep a plaintext store of custom->address maps
1064 2013-02-28 15:34:22 <HM> if MtGox was ever hacked someone could easily get quite a lot of personal transaction information from the blockchain
1065 2013-02-28 15:35:43 <grau> I am thinking of a server serving multiple clients with different wallets. currently clients send the address set they listen to, but they could as well send the master pubkey and bounds to construct that set on server side. a small optimization to protocol, might be relevant for huge address sets.
1066 2013-02-28 15:36:17 <grau> I am talking about clients that trust the server not p2p
1067 2013-02-28 15:37:58 <sipa> electrum, basically?
1068 2013-02-28 15:38:42 <grau> not electrum, bitsofproof. Clients is not just a payment application- It could be a connector to some other system.
1069 2013-02-28 15:39:22 <grau> Assume you want to hook up your accounting to bitcoin, you would want to connect a module to a trusted server.
1070 2013-02-28 15:40:26 <grau> I begin to believe that bitcoin is not about payments just like internet is not about e-mails
1071 2013-02-28 15:40:43 <grau> even though they were built for that in mind
1072 2013-02-28 15:40:44 <HM> e-mail? what's that?
1073 2013-02-28 15:41:22 <grau> I mean the interet was built to deliver e-mails but is an irrelevant part of it now.
1074 2013-02-28 15:41:25 <SomeoneWeird> lol
1075 2013-02-28 15:42:39 <grau> similarly bitcoin was built to settle payments but I guess will evolve as protocol for much more
1076 2013-02-28 15:45:26 <HM> hmm
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1079 2013-02-28 15:51:30 <HM> Another thing that strikes me, although I'm not sure if it's secure given the different curves, it should be possible for 2 wallet holders to construct a child wallet that *either* one can access using their private key given a chain/child id/salt
1080 2013-02-28 15:51:45 <HM> that would be like MULTISIG without actually using MULTISIG
1081 2013-02-28 15:52:30 <HM> nobody would then even know about it
1082 2013-02-28 15:53:47 amiller has joined
1083 2013-02-28 15:57:30 <HM> the problem with multisig for creating a "joint account" the person sending you coins has to setup the multisig script, or you have to move the funds do your partner can access them
1084 2013-02-28 16:01:20 <HM> actually i suppose sipa's insight that any extended public key + any child private key also allows you to calculate the parent private key allows you to do that
1085 2013-02-28 16:01:52 <HM> but turning BIP0032 way you need to calculate the parent/shared wallet first, you can't establish a shared wallet between 2 existing keypairs
1086 2013-02-28 16:02:34 <HM> still, i suppose sharing private keys is just easier :S
1087 2013-02-28 16:03:37 <HM> actually BIP0032 doesn't even work  for the upside down case because your partner would then have access to your account as well
1088 2013-02-28 16:07:47 <grau> I like BIP32 because you do not have to backup wallet after secured master key and you have hierarchies you can give away private key without access to higher levels.
1089 2013-02-28 16:09:15 [\\\] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1090 2013-02-28 16:09:59 <HM> yeah i was thinking about another use case
1091 2013-02-28 16:10:00 Conflict has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1092 2013-02-28 16:11:49 <HM> imagine a married couple where they have various savings funds. if you establish a new wallet for a "rainy day" or "holiday in spain" and a *3rd* party wants to contribute you have basically 2 options : 1) create a normal wallet and share the private key, 2) use a wallet under 1 persons control and move the funds later.
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1095 2013-02-28 16:13:23 <HM> you could also have the third party send a multisig transaction where either you or your wife can redeem it, but then they need your personal wallet pubkeys
1096 2013-02-28 16:13:26 <grau> 1) is the obvious choice
1097 2013-02-28 16:14:36 <HM> right, but it's burdensome and means transferring private keys across multiple devices all the time. i couldn't ring my girlfriend and say, hey let's establish a new "holiday in spain" fund, without a secure way to exchange the key for the new wallet
1098 2013-02-28 16:15:23 <HM> if you could do diffie hellmen securely on the sec256k1 curve, and you already had each others personal wallets in your address book, you could establish a new shared wallet securely without anyone knowing it was shared or between who
1099 2013-02-28 16:15:35 <grau> You do not have to have the private key with you to observe funds on it. You only need it if you redeem.
1100 2013-02-28 16:15:40 <HM> and nobody contributing would need to do multisig
1101 2013-02-28 16:15:53 <HM> right but the goal is dual access
1102 2013-02-28 16:16:27 <grau> I mean it is not burdersome to carry the private key because you do not have to until you use it.
1103 2013-02-28 16:16:37 <HM> hmm perhaps
1104 2013-02-28 16:17:10 <grau> For that use case I would create a paper wallet with BIP38 encryption and bail it on the wall.
1105 2013-02-28 16:17:30 <grau> Me and my wife would know the passphrase
1106 2013-02-28 16:17:42 <grau> I mean nail (not bail)
1107 2013-02-28 16:18:05 <HM> sure, encrypted exchange is easy. but it'd be nice if you could just select your partner in your phones address book, select "add fund" and type "rainyday", and for them to do the same
1108 2013-02-28 16:18:15 <HM> bam, shared wallet
1109 2013-02-28 16:20:13 <grau> Well, you could use a Brain wallet with secret entropy on the wall and the salt is the word "rainday"
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1111 2013-02-28 16:21:44 <HM> you still can't just text your partner "created new fund 'holiday in spain', home at 6. remember the groceries"
1112 2013-02-28 16:23:20 <grau> Why not? There is an entropy stored at home that both of you can access. Then you use a brain wallet that uses the new bucket name as salt to create private key and resulting address you send to.
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1114 2013-02-28 16:23:42 <HM> ok so 'holiday in spain' is the salt
1115 2013-02-28 16:23:46 <grau> yes
1116 2013-02-28 16:23:54 <HM> and what's the key?
1117 2013-02-28 16:24:03 <grau> a function of salt and entropy
1118 2013-02-28 16:24:25 <HM> but you need to pass that entropy to the other person
1119 2013-02-28 16:24:25 <grau> is the private key
1120 2013-02-28 16:24:48 <grau> It might be a picture on the wall of your hous.
1121 2013-02-28 16:24:51 <grau> house
1122 2013-02-28 16:25:27 <HM> and what if you want to establish a fund while your husband is away on an oil rig? :P
1123 2013-02-28 16:26:02 <HM> the point is to make it easy and descriptive, instead of worrying about where that QR code went
1124 2013-02-28 16:26:03 <grau> You might have a photo both of you have already, use a hash of that for the entropy
1125 2013-02-28 16:26:17 <wladston> jgarzik: about picocoin, is there any chance of seeing an RPC interface for it ?
1126 2013-02-28 16:26:20 <wladston> I could help to code
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1128 2013-02-28 16:26:52 <HM> grau: there's no point in a descriptive salt at all if you have to exchange a messy key
1129 2013-02-28 16:27:22 <grau> You do not exchange the key. My premise is that you already share the knowledge of the entropy.
1130 2013-02-28 16:27:49 <HM> right, and my point is you already have. a DH shared secret can be calculated from both public keys and 1 private key
1131 2013-02-28 16:27:50 <grau> you just tell use a new salt to it
1132 2013-02-28 16:28:53 <HM> as long as you can do DH securely on the sec256k1 curve, you already have the data you need to create a shared wallet with someone, just by having their address
1133 2013-02-28 16:28:57 <grau> there are number of solutions. I told you one practical
1134 2013-02-28 16:29:22 <HM> well actually their public key :/ but meh
1135 2013-02-28 16:30:45 Mad7Scientist is now known as PayAndPray
1136 2013-02-28 16:33:50 PayAndPray is now known as Mad7Scientist
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1138 2013-02-28 16:34:36 <TD> good day
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1141 2013-02-28 16:37:49 <BlueMatt> hi TD
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1146 2013-02-28 16:49:34 <discretefx> ;;ticker
1147 2013-02-28 16:49:34 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 33.60000, Best ask: 33.63999, Bid-ask spread: 0.03999, Last trade: 33.60000, 24 hour volume: 95197.96001244, 24 hour low: 30.90120, 24 hour high: 33.89000, 24 hour vwap: 32.41239
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1224 2013-02-28 19:38:55 <jurov> hello, can anyone explain me why bitcoind insisted on 0.0005 fee in this case?
1225 2013-02-28 19:38:58 <jurov> https://blockchain.info/tx/8903532f06070433f8d95125dcd1909298b004ffb95d35ef3e371d19c95c6110
1226 2013-02-28 19:39:33 <jurov> the tx is small and 0.5BTC isn't the tiniest amount
1227 2013-02-28 19:44:25 <phantomcircuit> jurov, it's small relative to it's age
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1229 2013-02-28 19:48:07 <jurov> a bit illogical, compared to the next one, 5x bigger: https://blockchain.info/tx-index/57350108/ff83b94bbcfd52f84e205edebb8dd1c30253d785c666776cb735edba7a93f6b4
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1233 2013-02-28 19:48:45 <jurov> i'd guess with all the ruckus about blocksize, devs would take a closer looks to default fees policy, too
1234 2013-02-28 19:49:47 <rdponticelli1> jurov: Small outputs are expensive, if they're not aged enough, because they can be used to spam
1235 2013-02-28 19:50:08 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: around? ;)
1236 2013-02-28 19:50:46 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1237 2013-02-28 19:50:51 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: not really, but?
1238 2013-02-28 19:52:05 <gmaxwell> jurov: the other one doesn't really have a fee. It has change which was paid as fee because returning the change would have resulted in a relay-mandatory fee which was greater than the returned change.
1239 2013-02-28 19:52:10 <gmaxwell> (at least thats what it looks like)
1240 2013-02-28 19:52:21 agricocb has joined
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1242 2013-02-28 19:52:34 <gmaxwell> jurov: the first has a fee because its respending unaged inputs too rapidly to qualify as free.
1243 2013-02-28 19:53:59 TD has joined
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1245 2013-02-28 19:54:22 <jurov> i see. just curious whether you won't be doing some statistics whether it can't be improved
1246 2013-02-28 19:54:42 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: PM
1247 2013-02-28 19:55:01 <Luke-Jr> jurov: improved? it's already a very low fee
1248 2013-02-28 19:56:39 <jurov> it is. but i mean, spending single 0.5BTC output after 24hours causes really such strain on the network ?
1249 2013-02-28 19:57:27 <TD> i came in late, but that shouldn't require a fee?
1250 2013-02-28 19:57:29 <jurov> as opposed to the next 1kB tx
1251 2013-02-28 19:57:39 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1252 2013-02-28 19:57:51 <gmaxwell> jurov: it's not that the transaction itself creates a strain, but if you rapidly recycle coins then your behavior is not distringuishable from a dos attack which works by constantly bouncing around the same funds.
1253 2013-02-28 19:57:51 <jurov> i have 0.0001 minimum set so it maybe comes from there
1254 2013-02-28 19:58:18 <TD> jurov: a single day old 0.5 btc output should be big enough to get a decent priority
1255 2013-02-28 19:58:47 <jurov> gmaxwell, did you or satoshi some simulaion
1256 2013-02-28 19:59:21 <TD> oh no please not another scalability debate
1257 2013-02-28 19:59:21 <jurov> TD, i'm speaking about last txs that 1coinbr was involved with
1258 2013-02-28 19:59:23 <denisx> when I spend 1 btc from a 25btc block then the change counts also as new?
1259 2013-02-28 19:59:30 QM has joined
1260 2013-02-28 19:59:31 <jgarzik> yes
1261 2013-02-28 19:59:41 <jurov> i don;t want to argue. just asking, whether you consider the fees optimal
1262 2013-02-28 19:59:43 <denisx> thats bad
1263 2013-02-28 19:59:44 <jgarzik> it's a new transaction output
1264 2013-02-28 20:00:07 <jgarzik> every time you spend, 100% of the old bitcoins are destroyed
1265 2013-02-28 20:00:22 <TD> yeah it's just an artifact of how bitcoin works
1266 2013-02-28 20:00:38 <gmaxwell> TD: no scalablity debate.
1267 2013-02-28 20:00:53 <TD> jurov: this one? http://blockchain.info/tx/8903532f06070433f8d95125dcd1909298b004ffb95d35ef3e371d19c95c6110
1268 2013-02-28 20:00:54 <jurov> maybe they can be improved, yielding more to miners. i really doubt sending 0.5BTC a day needs to carry such dos-protection
1269 2013-02-28 20:00:55 <rdponticelli1> denisx: You can always use sendmany, or rawtransaction to pool outputs
1270 2013-02-28 20:01:09 <TD> jurov: block explorer says it took 2 minutes
1271 2013-02-28 20:01:14 <jurov> TD, yes, as compared to the next one
1272 2013-02-28 20:01:23 <gmaxwell> jurov: there is nothing to simulate. People previously flooded the network, not allowing the same money to be respent rapidly without fees makes flooding it expensive instead of free.
1273 2013-02-28 20:01:34 <jurov> i'm actually fine with it, just asking
1274 2013-02-28 20:01:44 <TD> http://blockchain.info/tx/ff83b94bbcfd52f84e205edebb8dd1c30253d785c666776cb735edba7a93f6b4 ?
1275 2013-02-28 20:02:04 <TD> it'd be nice if blockchain showed the priority of each tx
1276 2013-02-28 20:02:10 <TD> that doesn't look unreasonable to me
1277 2013-02-28 20:02:27 <gavinandresen> I'm 100% sure the fee code is not optimal.  But it's just not super-high priority to fix right now (it will be super-high-priority soon, though)
1278 2013-02-28 20:02:31 <jgarzik> doable, but ultimately priority is just a default concept, not a network rule
1279 2013-02-28 20:02:35 d4de__ is now known as d4de
1280 2013-02-28 20:02:36 <TD> oh i see
1281 2013-02-28 20:02:40 <TD> you immediately re-spent the same change
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1284 2013-02-28 20:02:44 <TD> (same output)
1285 2013-02-28 20:02:54 <TD> jgarzik: sure
1286 2013-02-28 20:03:18 <TD> gavinandresen: do priorities of mempool transactions get recalculated every time the block changes?
1287 2013-02-28 20:03:21 <grau> Would it not make sense to build into clients a default distribution of balance to a number of addresses on a logarithmic scale, since breaking a big balance for subsequent payment of small amounts is problematic?
1288 2013-02-28 20:03:30 <jurov> the first spend was after a day, the second immediately. the first got big fee despite tx is smallest possible
1289 2013-02-28 20:03:43 <jurov> the second one got no fee practically
1290 2013-02-28 20:03:49 <gavinandresen> TD: priority sorting is done by the block creation code, so… yes, effectively
1291 2013-02-28 20:03:53 <TD> ok
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1293 2013-02-28 20:04:09 <jgarzik> grau: break transaction outputs into { spent amount, change, change, change, change } rather than { spent amount, change } ?
1294 2013-02-28 20:04:35 <grau> yes if change is big then it should be split on a log scale
1295 2013-02-28 20:04:56 <TD> there are lots of ways do de/re-fragment the wallet
1296 2013-02-28 20:05:25 <sipa> grau: i think that makes sense, yes
1297 2013-02-28 20:05:41 <sipa> the details need to be thought about, but i've wondered about doing something like that as well
1298 2013-02-28 20:05:53 <grau> The clients should have a target distribution similar to one keeps cache to be prepared to pay big and small equallz
1299 2013-02-28 20:06:02 <gavinandresen> grau: probably, unless you know something about how the wallet will be used.  E.g. the bitcoin faucet wallet always sends tiny amounts of the same number of BTC....
1300 2013-02-28 20:06:07 <sipa> you could try to limit the number of significant digits in each change amount to be similar to that of the actual payment
1301 2013-02-28 20:06:12 <sipa> to increase privacy
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1303 2013-02-28 20:07:17 <jurov> sipa, you'll break mpex then :)
1304 2013-02-28 20:07:19 <grau> I mean traditional cash has a (near) log scale. It would perhabs make sense to mimic that by preparing change in that manner
1305 2013-02-28 20:07:31 <jurov> i was thinking more about changing the fee policy bit to prioritize more over tx size that over age
1306 2013-02-28 20:07:56 <jurov> but i understand it's hornet nest, too :/
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1312 2013-02-28 20:12:14 <sipa> jurov: ?
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1314 2013-02-28 20:12:28 <TD> sorry. net trouble
1315 2013-02-28 20:12:35 <TD> jurov: which app made the tx?
1316 2013-02-28 20:14:18 <jurov> bitcoind 0.8
1317 2013-02-28 20:14:24 <jurov> the second one is sendmany
1318 2013-02-28 20:15:07 <Diablo-D3> hey TD
1319 2013-02-28 20:15:10 <Diablo-D3> do me a favor
1320 2013-02-28 20:15:20 <Diablo-D3> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWu9TFJjHaM
1321 2013-02-28 20:15:41 <Diablo-D3> watch that video and do the appropriate thing.
1322 2013-02-28 20:16:39 <jurov> sipa, mpex requires funding to be exact to last satoshi (cuz there is only one deposit address - it's a form of anonymization/mixing) any rounding doesn't do good here.
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1325 2013-02-28 20:19:51 <jurov> if i made a simple patch to be able to set txfee as parameter to sendtoaddress/sendmany, would it stand a chance for inclusion?
1326 2013-02-28 20:21:14 <jurov> then maybe it even could be used to help with payment identification instead of hairy scheme above... without increasing blockchain size a bit
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1328 2013-02-28 20:22:09 <TD> Diablo-D3: looks cool
1329 2013-02-28 20:22:21 <Diablo-D3> TD: google, frankly, needs to buy that company
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1331 2013-02-28 20:23:13 <TD> jurov: then mpex is stupid and needs to fix their site
1332 2013-02-28 20:23:25 <TD> jurov: i doubt such a patch would be accepted because the fee is enforced by your peers
1333 2013-02-28 20:23:51 <TD> doesn't really make sense
1334 2013-02-28 20:24:08 <jurov> oh i see. satoshidice needs fixing, mpex needs fixing, etc. bitcoind nevermind.
1335 2013-02-28 20:24:57 <jurov> so it's hard rule? okay so then just be able to add any amount to baseline?
1336 2013-02-28 20:25:16 <jurov> if i do settxfee only i don't know how it will come out
1337 2013-02-28 20:25:42 <jurov> i believe such use would increase fees and make miners happy
1338 2013-02-28 20:25:53 <sipa> jurov: when the wallet can cope with non-confirming transactions (detect conflicts with blockchain, deactivate old unconfirmed transactions, ...), some "yes this may be dangerous, but i want to set the tx fee to X anyway" would be acceptable, imho
1339 2013-02-28 20:26:27 <sipa> the fact that it currently doesn't deal with such rejected transactions is a bug imho
1340 2013-02-28 20:26:55 <helo> maybe a setting to "roughen all outputs", so that unspecified digits of precision may be randomized? so send 2.000 btc sends 2.00024582
1341 2013-02-28 20:27:12 <sipa> jurov: also, i don't see how rounding change would break mpex?
1342 2013-02-28 20:28:47 <TD> jurov: bitcoinj can do what you want, if you like
1343 2013-02-28 20:28:51 <helo> brain, work
1344 2013-02-28 20:28:56 <TD> sipa: they use 1 address and presumably randomize the payment amount somewhat
1345 2013-02-28 20:29:06 <jurov> TD, exactly
1346 2013-02-28 20:29:13 <TD> jurov: yes, both those sites are doing "creative" things with the bitcoin protocol that are, frankly, not good ideas
1347 2013-02-28 20:29:16 <TD> jurov: that's open protocols for you
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1350 2013-02-28 20:29:51 <sipa> TD: yes i understand, and i agree that is bad, but i still don't see how rounding change would break that
1351 2013-02-28 20:30:23 <TD> i wonder why they think using one address is better for privacy
1352 2013-02-28 20:30:44 <jurov> mpex tells you "so you want to send 15BTC? okay, send us 15.01683364"
1353 2013-02-28 20:31:09 <sipa> jurov: yes, so?
1354 2013-02-28 20:31:11 <jurov> TD, i do happen to think that anonymization by accepting payments to single address isn't bad idea.. as opposed to maintaining a new addy for every deposit
1355 2013-02-28 20:31:19 <sipa> (again: i agree that sucks)
1356 2013-02-28 20:31:20 <TD> why does it make a difference?
1357 2013-02-28 20:31:34 <gmaxwell> dear god. thats horrific.
1358 2013-02-28 20:31:38 <jurov> sipa, depends on how you want the rounding to be done
1359 2013-02-28 20:31:49 <gmaxwell> jurov: uh "_anonymization_" does not compute with "single address"
1360 2013-02-28 20:31:57 <TD> jurov: they were saying just the change outputs
1361 2013-02-28 20:32:00 <sipa> jurov: i only ever said something about rounding _change_, not your actual payment outputs
1362 2013-02-28 20:32:07 <jurov> ah so
1363 2013-02-28 20:32:19 <TD> 1 address is the opposite of anonymization
1364 2013-02-28 20:32:19 <jurov> and the bitdust ends in the fee, then?
1365 2013-02-28 20:32:25 <sipa> jurov: no?
1366 2013-02-28 20:32:34 <jurov> if input is not rounded
1367 2013-02-28 20:32:42 <sipa> jurov: did you read the original suggestion?
1368 2013-02-28 20:33:00 <jurov> <sipa> you could try to limit the number of significant digits in each change amount to be similar to that of the actual payment
1369 2013-02-28 20:33:04 <jurov> this?
1370 2013-02-28 20:33:10 <sipa> after:
1371 2013-02-28 20:33:12 <sipa> 20:45:05 < grau> Would it not make sense to build into clients a default distribution of balance to a number of addresses on a logarithmic scale, since breaking a big balance for subsequent payment of small  amounts is problematic?
1372 2013-02-28 20:33:20 phungus is now known as ThePizzaZone
1373 2013-02-28 20:33:39 <sipa> so you get multiple change outputs, of different sizes, but the number of significant digits in each corresponds (roughly) to that of the actual output
1374 2013-02-28 20:33:39 ThePizzaZone is now known as ThePhungusZone
1375 2013-02-28 20:33:56 <gmaxwell> FWIW, my own online wallet has log scale coin distribution.
1376 2013-02-28 20:33:58 ThePhungusZone is now known as TheTwilightZone
1377 2013-02-28 20:34:06 <jurov> okay. won't that increase avg transaction size?
1378 2013-02-28 20:34:11 TheTwilightZone is now known as phungus
1379 2013-02-28 20:34:21 <jurov> cause outputs seems to be more expensive than input
1380 2013-02-28 20:34:28 <gmaxwell> (as I've swept up outputs I've swept them words a log scale of integer values of coins)
1381 2013-02-28 20:34:39 <gmaxwell> jurov: the value is irrelevant.
1382 2013-02-28 20:35:12 <gmaxwell> jurov: transaction fees are largely determined by the _data_ size not the value. (priority does involve value, but actually in the opposite direction)
1383 2013-02-28 20:35:32 <sipa> well yes, more than 1 change will mean larger (in bytes) transactions
1384 2013-02-28 20:35:38 <sipa> but perhaps less inputs in future ones
1385 2013-02-28 20:35:40 <gmaxwell> Paying larger amounts only creates larger fees to the extent that you spend more inputs. But those are fees that would have been paid eventually, probably at higher future prices.
1386 2013-02-28 20:35:54 <jurov> in my real experience data size seems irrelevant, as seen in the txs i started this discussion with
1387 2013-02-28 20:36:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: you can still drive towards log distribution even with one change output.
1388 2013-02-28 20:36:15 <gmaxwell> sipa: e.g. will adding another input make the resulting wallet better distributed?
1389 2013-02-28 20:36:47 <gmaxwell> jurov: Why don't you try asking a question?
1390 2013-02-28 20:37:38 <jurov> i did ask: Can't be txfees improved to more reflect datasize?
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1392 2013-02-28 20:37:57 <jurov> that question got ignored and instead ppl latched on some rounding stuff
1393 2013-02-28 20:37:59 <gmaxwell> jurov: they already do.
1394 2013-02-28 20:38:12 phungus is now known as TheOleoMargarine
1395 2013-02-28 20:38:16 <gmaxwell> jurov: The fee, when one is required, is 0.0005 BTC per KB.
1396 2013-02-28 20:38:17 <jurov> in my expreience they don't do much
1397 2013-02-28 20:38:23 <gmaxwell> hard to reflect the size more than that.
1398 2013-02-28 20:38:24 TheOleoMargarine is now known as TheMargarineZone
1399 2013-02-28 20:38:47 <gmaxwell> jurov: yes, and I explained your results and you apparently ignored my response because it didn't help you complain, I guess?
1400 2013-02-28 20:40:06 <gmaxwell> (and I would note— this channel does not exist to answer your questions. Though its good if it does, there is still not reason for you to complain about other parts of the system that people want to talk about)
1401 2013-02-28 20:40:33 TheMargarineZone is now known as phungus
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1403 2013-02-28 20:41:07 <gmaxwell> jurov: On review did my response wrt your two transactions make sense to you?  If not— how so? I'll elaborate on it.
1404 2013-02-28 20:42:07 <jurov> how am i to respond to that... it makes sense technically, but not logically.
1405 2013-02-28 20:42:09 <gmaxwell> ;;ticker
1406 2013-02-28 20:42:10 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 32.57780, Best ask: 32.80000, Bid-ask spread: 0.22220, Last trade: 32.80000, 24 hour volume: 121877.36632759, 24 hour low: 30.90120, 24 hour high: 34.51541, 24 hour vwap: 32.58485
1407 2013-02-28 20:42:15 <jurov>  and if asking how spending 0.5btc after 24hrs is considered spammy.. then okay, i won't as anymore
1408 2013-02-28 20:42:20 <jurov> *ask
1409 2013-02-28 20:42:41 <gmaxwell> jurov: ::sigh:: thats not the point. Spam is a value judgement.  Lets forget that word for a moment.
1410 2013-02-28 20:43:08 <jurov> what's the minimal txfee other than value judgement?
1411 2013-02-28 20:43:09 <TD> i think we all agree that you should be able to spend your money and the existing system isn't as good as it could be. the tx will confirm eventually
1412 2013-02-28 20:43:56 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1413 2013-02-28 20:44:00 <gmaxwell> jurov: Lets say a 1kb txn was _always free_.  I get myself 0.01 bitcoin and then I run "while true; ./bitcoind sendtoaddress `bitcoin getnewaddress` 0.01 ; done" and then everyone is burdened with maximum sized blocks and a maximum bandwidth.
1414 2013-02-28 20:44:03 <jurov> i jut am curious if there is a real reason/ research, or just satoshi said so (and the txfees are possibly suboptimal)
1415 2013-02-28 20:44:20 <gmaxwell> jurov: at one point in the past this was the case, and people attacked bitcoin this way.
1416 2013-02-28 20:44:39 <gmaxwell> jurov: and the defining behavior of that kind of attack is that you keep rapidly respending the same coin.
1417 2013-02-28 20:44:45 root2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1418 2013-02-28 20:44:51 <jurov> okay okay i don;t ask the fees to be set to 0,. please don't misunderstand me
1419 2013-02-28 20:45:09 <jurov> i want them to eventually raise
1420 2013-02-28 20:45:23 <gmaxwell> jurov: so it was set so that _not_ spending a coin accrues priority ... and spending it consumes that priority. So that the flooder is disadvantaged.
1421 2013-02-28 20:46:12 <gmaxwell> jurov: the mandatory fees are not _the fees_ people can and do pay more then them, but they're just a baseline applied only to txn which we can't objectively distinguish from a flood attack, under which the system won't even consider a transaction.
1422 2013-02-28 20:46:45 <TD> we could probably improve the algorithm
1423 2013-02-28 20:46:51 <TD> so age is considered on a log scale or something
1424 2013-02-28 20:47:03 idstam has quit ()
1425 2013-02-28 20:47:03 <gmaxwell> the current amount used in that case was set before when BTC was about $28 BTC, lowered from 0.01 BTC which had been satoshi era set.
1426 2013-02-28 20:47:11 <jurov> gmaxwell, so you are completely content in how it works now, i presume?
1427 2013-02-28 20:47:19 <jurov> with satoshidice and everything
1428 2013-02-28 20:47:22 <TD> sending a handful of transactions in a short space of time is probably quite common. sending 100, not so much
1429 2013-02-28 20:47:57 <gmaxwell> jurov: No. I mean, SD disproves the whole concept but in a deep way. The whole idea is based on the notion that the attacker is economically rational and won't attack if the cost per attack unit is high enough.
1430 2013-02-28 20:48:06 stalled has joined
1431 2013-02-28 20:48:42 <gmaxwell> SD has economically irrational parties paying tons for transactions where every transaction has a negative expectation, no economic system can rate limit that by imposing fees.
1432 2013-02-28 20:48:48 <gmaxwell> But I don't think it's a big deal.
1433 2013-02-28 20:49:18 <gmaxwell> TD: having have a longer memory is good, but impossible for non-full nodes. :(
1434 2013-02-28 20:49:19 <jurov> point taken
1435 2013-02-28 20:49:30 <TD> but they aren't mining
1436 2013-02-28 20:49:58 <gmaxwell> TD: yea, but you need to know if your own txn would qualify as free so you know to add the fee in advance (or otherwise you wait for it to fail and try again...)
1437 2013-02-28 20:50:13 <chmod755> gmaxwell, there are several ways to boycott SD if someone doesn't like it - e.g. not including SD transactions
1438 2013-02-28 20:50:23 <TD> i suppose so
1439 2013-02-28 20:50:46 <andytoshi> i'm curious why SD has not started disguising their transactions? i don't know how their site works, is this hard?
1440 2013-02-28 20:51:00 <andytoshi> maybe they are just a little bit good inside :)
1441 2013-02-28 20:51:06 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: let's be glad they haven't
1442 2013-02-28 20:51:06 <TD> they don't care. the fact that it's all done via the p2p protocol is a part of their brand
1443 2013-02-28 20:51:11 <gmaxwell> TD: also, one disadvantage of having a second order age is that it would give a free pass to parties that make inefficient patters e.g. always bounce a coin three times. Which would be unfortunate, since those practices should not be encouraged at least.
1444 2013-02-28 20:51:13 <jgarzik> andytoshi: they use public bitcoin addresses, to avoid needing accounts and logins
1445 2013-02-28 20:51:34 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: you don't have to use public bitcoin addresses to avoid accounts and logins.
1446 2013-02-28 20:51:53 <TD> gmaxwell: i think in future wallets may make synthetic transactions as part of blockchain obfuscation for privacy. it'd be nice not to discourage that
1447 2013-02-28 20:52:49 <gmaxwell> TD: well, I don't know about discourage, but we shouldn't subsidize it either. Random ones for obfuscation aren't so bad.... though I prefer to do obfsucation at send time.
1448 2013-02-28 20:53:50 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: e.g. user loads webpage. Webpage says <type in address for your winnings> you do, then it says, pay to 1apple to play. You do. then play a bunch on the webpage. And if you stop or close the browser or click cash out it sends back your balance. No account or login.
1449 2013-02-28 20:54:18 <gmaxwell> (not that this at all counters your statement that what they do is part of their brand)
1450 2013-02-28 20:55:49 <jurov> ok thank you all
1451 2013-02-28 20:56:20 <TD> slush: hey slush, how is trezor going?
1452 2013-02-28 20:57:58 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it could be made even more robust by remembering your pay-to with a cookie, and also your session ID— so if you return before the timeout has expired you could keep playing. .. and if you come after then it just has to tell you to pay 1apple to start.
1453 2013-02-28 20:58:51 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: really I think SD wants P2P messaging (largely for deniability)
1454 2013-02-28 20:58:58 root2 has joined
1455 2013-02-28 20:59:24 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: deniability ... when they use consistent addresses which creates non-repudiation? and they market the non-repudiation as a security feature? :P
1456 2013-02-28 21:00:10 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1467 2013-02-28 21:25:10 fatAgnes has joined
1468 2013-02-28 21:26:16 Gu_______ has joined
1469 2013-02-28 21:27:31 <fatAgnes> HI
1470 2013-02-28 21:27:43 <fatAgnes> whats the best bitcoin client out there?
1471 2013-02-28 21:27:56 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: [BB])
1472 2013-02-28 21:27:57 occulta has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1473 2013-02-28 21:28:37 clr_ has joined
1474 2013-02-28 21:28:37 clr_ is now known as c00w
1475 2013-02-28 21:29:40 <HM> fatAgnes: for what use  case?
1476 2013-02-28 21:30:05 <fatAgnes> wanna mine, have my own wallet, etc
1477 2013-02-28 21:31:23 <HM> Go with BitcoinQt
1478 2013-02-28 21:32:11 <HM> if you want to mine seriously on your cpu then i think cgminer is popular
1479 2013-02-28 21:32:17 <HM> gpu rather
1480 2013-02-28 21:32:20 occulta has joined
1481 2013-02-28 21:35:18 <fatAgnes> what kind of gpu do you need?
1482 2013-02-28 21:35:22 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1483 2013-02-28 21:35:38 <fatAgnes> what kind of pricerange are we talking about?
1484 2013-02-28 21:36:55 <HM> gpu mining is on its way out
1485 2013-02-28 21:37:04 mappum has joined
1486 2013-02-28 21:39:31 <HM> fatAgnes: you're best bet is #bitcoin
1487 2013-02-28 21:46:44 TD has joined
1488 2013-02-28 21:48:11 HM has quit ()
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1490 2013-02-28 21:51:17 HM has joined
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1497 2013-02-28 22:06:28 <epscy> how often do we get blocks on testnet
1498 2013-02-28 22:08:37 <helo> as fast as you mine them
1499 2013-02-28 22:08:46 <epscy> yeah i am not mining
1500 2013-02-28 22:08:49 <epscy> i mean on average
1501 2013-02-28 22:09:01 <helo> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet
1502 2013-02-28 22:09:10 <epscy> thanks
1503 2013-02-28 22:10:09 <andytoshi> epscy: it's never gonna give you up, if that's what you're asking..
1504 2013-02-28 22:10:11 <andytoshi> never gonna let you down
1505 2013-02-28 22:10:14 <andytoshi> never gonna run around and desert you
1506 2013-02-28 22:10:41 <epscy> thanks for that andytoshi
1507 2013-02-28 22:12:33 rdymac has joined
1508 2013-02-28 22:13:26 <HM> i somehow missed the namecheap thing
1509 2013-02-28 22:16:43 <epscy> i'm trying to test the the block notify thing
1510 2013-02-28 22:16:54 <epscy> i have put a curl command in the the config
1511 2013-02-28 22:17:10 <epscy> now just waiting for a block on testnet to fire it off
1512 2013-02-28 22:17:19 <epscy> the curl command works on the command line
1513 2013-02-28 22:18:02 <epscy> well whadya know
1514 2013-02-28 22:18:07 <epscy> just got a block
1515 2013-02-28 22:18:13 <epscy> and it all seemed to work fine
1516 2013-02-28 22:19:25 <epscy> is there a common shorthand for referring to blocks?
1517 2013-02-28 22:19:35 <sipa> hmm?
1518 2013-02-28 22:19:35 <epscy> like the firstbits for an address?
1519 2013-02-28 22:19:43 <sipa> its height?
1520 2013-02-28 22:19:52 <epscy> oh of course
1521 2013-02-28 22:19:55 <sipa> not unique, though
1522 2013-02-28 22:20:15 <epscy> would be nice if blocknotify passed the height through as well
1523 2013-02-28 22:20:21 <epscy> as the blockhash
1524 2013-02-28 22:20:43 <sipa> wouldn't be hard
1525 2013-02-28 22:20:52 <epscy> though yes, i can see that if there was a fork that could get confusing
1526 2013-02-28 22:21:27 <andytoshi> actually, i think it'd be useful as an easy fork detect
1527 2013-02-28 22:22:58 totaleclipse has joined
1528 2013-02-28 22:25:51 chmod755 has quit (Quit: chmod755)
1529 2013-02-28 22:26:08 <andytoshi> so, slightly -less- confusing than the current setup
1530 2013-02-28 22:27:10 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1531 2013-02-28 22:30:23 <Luke-Jr> epscy: did you try this yet?
1532 2013-02-28 22:30:27 <Luke-Jr> epscy: bitcoind getrawtransaction 73e64e38faea386c88a578fd1919bcdba3d0b3af7b6302bf6ee1b423dc4e4333 | xxd -r -p | play -tul -
1533 2013-02-28 22:30:45 <epscy> err no, what does that do
1534 2013-02-28 22:31:15 <Luke-Jr> try it
1535 2013-02-28 22:31:18 <Luke-Jr> on testnet only
1536 2013-02-28 22:31:45 <epscy> installing sox
1537 2013-02-28 22:31:56 freakazoid_ is now known as freakazoid
1538 2013-02-28 22:32:11 <epscy> i'm guessing this gives me the height right?
1539 2013-02-28 22:32:16 <sipa> maybe
1540 2013-02-28 22:32:18 <sipa> perhaps more
1541 2013-02-28 22:32:20 <Luke-Jr> not quite
1542 2013-02-28 22:32:28 <Luke-Jr> much cooler
1543 2013-02-28 22:32:39 <sipa> call it an 'extended height' if you will
1544 2013-02-28 22:32:42 <epscy> either that or another rickroll
1545 2013-02-28 22:32:44 <helo> woah, is that your voice Luke-Jr?
1546 2013-02-28 22:32:53 <andytoshi> is it live?
1547 2013-02-28 22:32:59 <epscy> oh this speaks?
1548 2013-02-28 22:33:04 <helo> sorry, i just made that up to troll
1549 2013-02-28 22:33:04 <epscy> this won't work at all
1550 2013-02-28 22:33:10 * helo runs
1551 2013-02-28 22:33:12 <epscy> it's a vm
1552 2013-02-28 22:33:13 <andytoshi> epscy: fyi, i have a program called "js" which i just discovered, which can be used to parse the output of getblock from shell
1553 2013-02-28 22:33:23 <andytoshi> makes getting the height very easy
1554 2013-02-28 22:33:28 <andytoshi> echo "BLOCK = $(bitcoind getblock 0000000000000297b976123d06710e2887980f49ae5a2e86c03249c0454541f2); print(BLOCK.height);" | js
1555 2013-02-28 22:33:39 <andytoshi> fwiw
1556 2013-02-28 22:33:51 <sipa> also, try sl
1557 2013-02-28 22:33:52 <epscy> thanks
1558 2013-02-28 22:34:14 <epscy> yeah i decided to take off the play expeting text
1559 2013-02-28 22:34:22 <epscy> and now my terminal is all screwed up
1560 2013-02-28 22:34:35 <epscy> i have been rickrolled
1561 2013-02-28 22:35:26 <andytoshi> haha, gotta love bash
1562 2013-02-28 22:35:31 whizter has quit ()
1563 2013-02-28 22:36:21 <epscy> oh man
1564 2013-02-28 22:36:28 <epscy> i think tmux is still screwed
1565 2013-02-28 22:36:40 <epscy> i have to restart everything
1566 2013-02-28 22:37:38 <epscy> ok it's back to normal now
1567 2013-02-28 22:37:43 <epscy> lesson learned
1568 2013-02-28 22:37:52 <epscy> getrawtransaction IS dangerous
1569 2013-02-28 22:38:42 gritcoin has joined
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1574 2013-02-28 22:53:02 <helo> Luke-Jr: what about the libsox buffer overflow version?
1575 2013-02-28 22:57:06 alexwaters has joined
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1577 2013-02-28 22:57:40 <gmaxwell> helo: it's ulaw... not going to have an exploitable bug in that.
1578 2013-02-28 22:57:55 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no reason it has to be ulaw
1579 2013-02-28 22:58:14 <gmaxwell> yes, but ulaw has a particular robustness because there is no word alignment issue.
1580 2013-02-28 22:59:07 cheako has joined
1581 2013-02-28 22:59:21 <gmaxwell> 14:14 < sipa> call it an 'extended height' if you will
1582 2013-02-28 22:59:22 <gmaxwell> lol
1583 2013-02-28 22:59:50 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
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1586 2013-02-28 23:01:43 <buddyrandom> does anybody know why getrawtransaction would sometimes give me an error when the same txid works fine with gettransaction?
1587 2013-02-28 23:02:31 gritcoin has joined
1588 2013-02-28 23:02:47 <gmaxwell> sounds surprising to me, I'm pretty sure than getrawtrasnaction should work even when txindex=0 on wallet transactions (the ones gettransaction works on)
1589 2013-02-28 23:03:27 <buddyrandom> it's happening on the command line and with the rpc
1590 2013-02-28 23:03:50 <buddyrandom> this *is* on testnet, not sure if that would matter .. the tx has 150+ confirmations
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1593 2013-02-28 23:04:47 <gmaxwell> buddyrandom: are you running with txindex?
1594 2013-02-28 23:04:57 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: it might not work with txindex=1 though? :o
1595 2013-02-28 23:05:18 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: what might not work?
1596 2013-02-28 23:05:18 <Luke-Jr> IIRC that short-circuits the usual txn search logic
1597 2013-02-28 23:05:23 <buddyrandom> just getrawtransaction <txid>
1598 2013-02-28 23:05:29 <gmaxwell> sure but then it should work because its in the txindex
1599 2013-02-28 23:05:41 <Luke-Jr> hmm, only if it succeeds
1600 2013-02-28 23:05:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: getrawtransaction doesn't check the wallet
1601 2013-02-28 23:05:47 <Luke-Jr> true
1602 2013-02-28 23:05:56 <Luke-Jr> sipa: why not?
1603 2013-02-28 23:06:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: oh. hmph! I could have sworn it did.
1604 2013-02-28 23:06:10 <sipa> gettransaction did for a while
1605 2013-02-28 23:06:18 alexwaters has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1606 2013-02-28 23:06:22 <buddyrandom> the same calls are working for other transactions
1607 2013-02-28 23:06:26 <sipa> because i despise RPC's that are both wallet calls and blockdb calls
1608 2013-02-28 23:06:33 <Luke-Jr> sipa: does it work on double-spent txns?
1609 2013-02-28 23:06:42 <gmaxwell> uh of course gettransaction does, where else would gettransaction get data from?
1610 2013-02-28 23:06:44 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no such thing exists :p
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1612 2013-02-28 23:06:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: yes they do
1613 2013-02-28 23:07:06 <sipa> you may mean reorganised transactions?
1614 2013-02-28 23:07:10 <Luke-Jr> sipa: accept block X with transaction X; reorg to chain Y where transaction X is invalid
1615 2013-02-28 23:07:13 <gmaxwell> sipa: in the wallet
1616 2013-02-28 23:07:25 <sipa> oh, in the wallet
1617 2013-02-28 23:07:27 <sipa> unsure, actually
1618 2013-02-28 23:07:33 <Luke-Jr> either, I meant
1619 2013-02-28 23:07:36 <gmaxwell> you can have a txn in the wallet which is conflicted with the maint chain.
1620 2013-02-28 23:07:49 <Luke-Jr> if my bitcoind has ever seen a transaction in the blockchain, I'd expect to be able to get it <.<
1621 2013-02-28 23:07:52 alexwaters has joined
1622 2013-02-28 23:08:00 <gmaxwell> buddyrandom: in any case, sounds like getrawtransaction doesn't actually check the wallet... so you'll need txindex=1 to view spent transactions.
1623 2013-02-28 23:08:10 <sipa> Luke-Jr: getrawtrasaction with txindex=1 works with transactions in side-chains
1624 2013-02-28 23:08:17 <Luke-Jr> sipa: k
1625 2013-02-28 23:08:18 <sipa> unless they also exist in the main chain
1626 2013-02-28 23:08:28 <buddyrandom> ok cool i'll try that thanks!
1627 2013-02-28 23:08:54 <gmaxwell> I suppose it's better that getrawtrasaction doesn't check the wallet— less information leak risk.
1628 2013-02-28 23:09:14 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: only if gettransaction can provide all the same info
1629 2013-02-28 23:09:17 alexwaters has left ()
1630 2013-02-28 23:09:18 <Luke-Jr> which I dont' think it does anymore
1631 2013-02-28 23:09:32 <Luke-Jr> no way to get a hex dump of a wallet-only txn now, is there?
1632 2013-02-28 23:10:26 <buddyrandom> ah jeez there it is right in the 0.8 readme :/
1633 2013-02-28 23:10:44 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: uh. roll back your chain until its not conflicted... reannounce it... and pull it from the mempool? :P
1634 2013-02-28 23:11:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: really? how do I roll back my chain? :P
1635 2013-02-28 23:11:55 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: abort a load block a truncated blockfile? lol
1636 2013-02-28 23:12:03 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1637 2013-02-28 23:12:10 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no mechanism to abort.
1638 2013-02-28 23:12:20 <gmaxwell> truncated.
1639 2013-02-28 23:12:38 <gmaxwell> (for this what I've always done is just added a limit to loadblock)
1640 2013-02-28 23:12:59 totaleclipse has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1641 2013-02-28 23:17:05 <slush> TD: We're still working on it. First batch of PCBs had some issues in design, second batch is in factory now.
1642 2013-02-28 23:17:13 <slush> Testing batch
1643 2013-02-28 23:17:27 <TD> cool
1644 2013-02-28 23:17:45 <Luke-Jr> slush: for PCBs, can't you test design before a batch run? O.o
1645 2013-02-28 23:18:15 <slush> Luke-Jr: well, the problem was that dimensions didn't fit because of some conversions between formats :)
1646 2013-02-28 23:18:20 <slush> you cannot test this
1647 2013-02-28 23:18:24 <Luke-Jr> >_<
1648 2013-02-28 23:18:40 <TD> the good old cm vs inches issue eh?
1649 2013-02-28 23:18:51 <Luke-Jr> should just adopt tonal..
1650 2013-02-28 23:18:52 <slush> :)
1651 2013-02-28 23:19:29 <sipa> how about using good old planck units
1652 2013-02-28 23:21:36 Bwild has joined
1653 2013-02-28 23:22:35 RBecker is now known as rbecker
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1659 2013-02-28 23:28:44 <andytoshi> i spent a summer converting gEDA's pcb tool from "centimils" to nanometers internally
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1665 2013-02-28 23:35:06 <andytoshi> before, when you had the tool set to metric, your cursor position would display as "4.2499999, 3.999999"
1666 2013-02-28 23:35:40 <andytoshi> at one point, they had special code in the Gtk interface to look for too many 9's :)
1667 2013-02-28 23:37:49 PhantomSpark has joined
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1669 2013-02-28 23:39:00 <D34TH> you can never have too many, especially in the bank balance
1670 2013-02-28 23:45:31 <Gu_______> anyone here using django-bitcoin? https://github.com/kangasbros/django-bitcoin
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1674 2013-02-28 23:57:49 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
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