1 2013-03-01 00:00:01 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: got a weird one for you, you have any idea why havaged (or similar entropy feeding mechanism, for our purposes it could be an entropykey or rngd fed somehow) would cause performance improvements (evens out runq/cpu usage peaks under some workloads) when the app that's affected is using /dev/urandom and not /dev/random?
   2 2013-03-01 00:00:10 <jrmithdobbs> s/havaged/haveged/
   3 2013-03-01 00:00:20 Goonie has joined
   4 2013-03-01 00:00:48 <HM> Gu_______: no but look at pywallet.py blows me away
   5 2013-03-01 00:00:57 <Goonie> I've got an issue with querying the mempool on bitcoin-qt 0.8.0. Can anyone help?
   6 2013-03-01 00:01:14 Raccoon has joined
   7 2013-03-01 00:01:14 agricocb has joined
   8 2013-03-01 00:01:17 <HM> AES, EC stuff and Bitcoin specific stuff all in one file
   9 2013-03-01 00:01:32 <sipa> Goonie: shoot
  10 2013-03-01 00:01:41 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell / sipa: or one of you, but that's jgarzik's area so I directed it at him ;p
  11 2013-03-01 00:01:55 <Goonie> bitcoinj 0.8-SNAPSHOT queries the mempool after having set the bloom filter
  12 2013-03-01 00:02:05 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: i have no idea about the internals of urandom/random
  13 2013-03-01 00:02:10 <Goonie> it looks like I get back tx from the blockchain
  14 2013-03-01 00:02:21 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: worth a shot ;p
  15 2013-03-01 00:02:25 <Raccoon> When will the bitcoin cliet gain the option to pre-generate 10,000 address keys the wallet, so a 1-time-backup can be made?  This feature must be added with TOP priority.
  16 2013-03-01 00:02:35 <sipa> Raccoon: -keypool=10000
  17 2013-03-01 00:02:40 <Raccoon> GUI
  18 2013-03-01 00:02:40 <jrmithdobbs> Raccoon: since like 0.4
  19 2013-03-01 00:02:43 <Goonie> I understand the mempool should not contain tx that are already blockchain confirmed, is that true?
  20 2013-03-01 00:02:51 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: I've certantly had many problems with hosts becoming slow when entropy runs out.. but I had _assumed_ that it was due to things using /dev/random.
  21 2013-03-01 00:02:57 <sipa> Goonie: that's very strange indeed
  22 2013-03-01 00:03:00 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: but TBH, I never checked that assumption.
  23 2013-03-01 00:03:06 <Raccoon> "Create A Wallet" -- Wizard
  24 2013-03-01 00:03:29 <TD> Goonie: it's possible for a peer to be behind the head of chain and not have seen the confirmations et
  25 2013-03-01 00:03:30 <TD> yet
  26 2013-03-01 00:03:30 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: the option exists for the bitcoin-qt client too.. same way you set other advanced options.
  27 2013-03-01 00:03:44 <Raccoon> gmaxwell: Through the UI Menu?
  28 2013-03-01 00:03:49 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya, I was checking it because i've got some stuff it greatly improves (java code using the stl/whatevers ssl/tls code) and some other stuff that it doesn't, and some that it seems to marginally in corner cases
  29 2013-03-01 00:03:54 <HM> jrmithdobbs: on Linux urandom uses a bunch of hash functions and mixing functions
  30 2013-03-01 00:04:00 <Goonie> well, my bitcoin-qt is up to date and the tx is from the stone age:
  31 2013-03-01 00:04:03 <Goonie> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/eb43d5b5913d187944f537d7d63b0041d28cad5de62b791f932a927f9667e34d
  32 2013-03-01 00:04:15 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: No— the other advanced options aren't in a menu either.
  33 2013-03-01 00:04:27 <Raccoon> gmaxwell: It SHOULD NOT be an advanced option.
  34 2013-03-01 00:04:28 <jrmithdobbs> HM: right but the complexity of the mixing function shouldn't consume more resources than the haveged instance, in theory
  35 2013-03-01 00:04:31 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
  36 2013-03-01 00:04:36 <Raccoon> It should be a First Time Startup Wizard
  37 2013-03-01 00:04:37 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: wouldn't be hard to add a gui keypool option setting, you could submit a pull.
  38 2013-03-01 00:04:42 <jrmithdobbs> if anything, haveged should be less performant
  39 2013-03-01 00:04:46 <Goonie> (ok, its a week old ;-)
  40 2013-03-01 00:04:50 <Raccoon> gmaxwell: Only 400 bitcoin users know about switches
  41 2013-03-01 00:04:51 <sipa> Goonie: oh, that's possible - there's no way to verify its inputs are already spent
  42 2013-03-01 00:04:53 <gmaxwell> I would NAK as "wizard" but a menu option would be fine.
  43 2013-03-01 00:05:14 <TD> ah
  44 2013-03-01 00:05:20 <TD> double spends can hang around in the mempool
  45 2013-03-01 00:05:27 <sipa> not double spends
  46 2013-03-01 00:05:31 <sipa> 0.8 fixed that
  47 2013-03-01 00:05:38 <jrmithdobbs> oh nice
  48 2013-03-01 00:05:38 <TD> they get deleted now?
  49 2013-03-01 00:05:41 <Goonie> Ok I did quite a lot of double spends on these addresses
  50 2013-03-01 00:05:57 <sipa> but an old transaction that was already completely spent may enter the mempool again
  51 2013-03-01 00:06:07 <sipa> if its inputs are also entirely spent
  52 2013-03-01 00:06:15 <Goonie> but anyhow, the transaction is confirmed, so it can't be on the losing side of a double spend
  53 2013-03-01 00:06:20 <TD> because they were pruned away so it looks like an orphan?
  54 2013-03-01 00:06:26 <sipa> TD: yup
  55 2013-03-01 00:06:30 <TD> that's annoying
  56 2013-03-01 00:06:47 <sipa> it may make sense to keep a cache of "recently seen in blockchain" transactions, and shun those from the mempool
  57 2013-03-01 00:07:00 <sipa> but it's only a cache, and can't be perfect
  58 2013-03-01 00:07:04 <TD> hmm
  59 2013-03-01 00:07:08 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: the most interesting one it affected (positively) that I wasn't expecting was puppetmasterd running in mongrels, for some reason all the cert auth stuff just started working at the damned speed it's supposed to
  60 2013-03-01 00:07:25 <TD> Goonie: is this causing transactions to have their confidence go backwards?
  61 2013-03-01 00:07:53 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: (puppet does client cert auth, so it kind of makes sense if bigger entropy pool == better performing urandom as it seems)
  62 2013-03-01 00:07:57 <Goonie> TD: I don't know what you mean by backwards, but I'd say yes
  63 2013-03-01 00:08:10 <TD> from BUILDING to NOT_SEEN_IN_CHAIN
  64 2013-03-01 00:08:18 <HM> perhaps when you open /dev/random your framework is secretly seeding its own PRNG
  65 2013-03-01 00:08:20 <sipa> TD: wait, this doesn't make sense
  66 2013-03-01 00:08:21 <Goonie> TD: see my recent comment on http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/detail?id=332
  67 2013-03-01 00:08:31 <sipa> TD: they can't enter the mempool, only the orphan tx pool
  68 2013-03-01 00:08:39 <Goonie> TD: it does not go from BUILDING to NOT_SEEN..
  69 2013-03-01 00:08:53 <Goonie> TD: it just appears as NOT_SEEN, as a pending tx like I said
  70 2013-03-01 00:08:56 <jrmithdobbs> HM: if you've not noticed i'm talking over many different apps and *type* of app for that matter
  71 2013-03-01 00:09:00 <sipa> as entering the mempool requires all inputs to be present
  72 2013-03-01 00:09:08 <TD> right
  73 2013-03-01 00:10:04 RBecker is now known as rbecker
  74 2013-03-01 00:10:05 <jrmithdobbs> HM: eg, nscd is an example of one of the apps, and I *know* it's just using tls_randfile from the config (and defaults to /dev/urandom on this platform) and there's no code between it and libc as far as the random data reading
  75 2013-03-01 00:10:08 <TD> ok
  76 2013-03-01 00:10:09 <TD> so
  77 2013-03-01 00:10:16 <TD> hmm
  78 2013-03-01 00:11:02 <HM> jrmithdobbs: have you checked the major and minor numbers to see if /dev/random is actually what it's supposed to be? :P
  79 2013-03-01 00:11:06 <TD> the handling of the "mempool" command is quite simple. there isn't much scope for error there
  80 2013-03-01 00:11:34 <HM> deleting /dev/random and mknod'ing an alias for urandom is always fun
  81 2013-03-01 00:12:16 <jrmithdobbs> HM: ... if some asshat went though and did that on the couple hundred hosts i'm looking at, I'm going to be killing an asshat (after forcing him to fix it)
  82 2013-03-01 00:12:21 <HM> but that wouldn't explain a difference :)
  83 2013-03-01 00:12:21 <jrmithdobbs> HM: aka: no that's not the issue.
  84 2013-03-01 00:13:46 <Goonie> TD: I did not completely understand. Is the behavious of bitcoin-qt expected or not?
  85 2013-03-01 00:13:56 <Goonie> behaviour
  86 2013-03-01 00:14:05 <TD> it's not supposed to advertise transactions that are in the blockchain via an "inv", ever
  87 2013-03-01 00:14:09 <TD> but i haven't seen that happen
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  89 2013-03-01 00:14:41 <sipa> Goonie: it's unexpected
  90 2013-03-01 00:14:58 <sipa> Goonie: i thought for a minute that it was inevitable, but i was wrong
  91 2013-03-01 00:15:22 <TD> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet.cpp#L782
  92 2013-03-01 00:15:32 <TD> is this code still correct/
  93 2013-03-01 00:15:33 <Goonie> ok what's the easiest way to verify that bitcoin-qt is really sending these inv's?
  94 2013-03-01 00:15:55 <sipa> TD: i want to get rid of that logic, but yes
  95 2013-03-01 00:16:04 <TD> Goonie: just add debug logging in Peer.processInv
  96 2013-03-01 00:16:07 <TD> print out the tx hashes
  97 2013-03-01 00:16:09 <TD>             if (wtx.IsCoinBase() && wtx.IsSpent(0))
  98 2013-03-01 00:16:10 <TD>                 continue;
  99 2013-03-01 00:16:23 <TD> sipa: that looks like it may do the wrong thing for people who are being paid from pools at least
 100 2013-03-01 00:16:41 <Goonie> any way to log this on the bitcoin-qt side?
 101 2013-03-01 00:16:52 <TD> sipa: what does pcoinsTip->GetCoins do?
 102 2013-03-01 00:17:03 <sipa> TD: retrieve from the current UTXO set
 103 2013-03-01 00:17:05 <TD> Goonie: same thing, just add debug logging to the handling of the mempool command
 104 2013-03-01 00:17:22 <Goonie> ok in this case I prefer the Java way (-:
 105 2013-03-01 00:17:27 <sipa> but reacceptwallettransactions shouldn't ever be necessary
 106 2013-03-01 00:17:50 <Goonie> But I need to skip this till tomorrow
 107 2013-03-01 00:17:51 <TD> sipa: so if a wallet contains a transaction that is fully spent, it'll re-enter the memory pool?
 108 2013-03-01 00:17:53 <sipa> it marks transaction outputs spent that are found to be spent in the tx index (earlier) and the utxo set now
 109 2013-03-01 00:18:20 <Goonie> If you find anything out, could you update issue 332?
 110 2013-03-01 00:18:29 <TD> ok, wtx.GetDepthInMainChain() should always be true for a confirmed tx
 111 2013-03-01 00:18:38 <TD> hm
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 113 2013-03-01 00:18:56 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 114 2013-03-01 00:19:01 <TD> Goonie: yeah i'm heading to bed too. will investigate tomorrow
 115 2013-03-01 00:19:05 <TD> it does sound wrong
 116 2013-03-01 00:19:14 <TD> though bcj should be robust against peers sending invs for spent txns
 117 2013-03-01 00:19:29 <Goonie> We'll see
 118 2013-03-01 00:19:33 <Goonie> nite
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 120 2013-03-01 00:25:53 eisla has joined
 121 2013-03-01 00:26:03 <eisla> Hi
 122 2013-03-01 00:26:39 <eisla> Hola
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 129 2013-03-01 00:34:14 rlifchitz has joined
 130 2013-03-01 00:38:21 <eisla> Someone can confirm if any applications for mining in Andriod or iOS?
 131 2013-03-01 00:38:40 <Luke-Jr> eisla: BFGMiner's "android" branch should build for Android
 132 2013-03-01 00:39:17 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 133 2013-03-01 00:40:34 <HM> o_O
 134 2013-03-01 00:40:56 <HM> Sounds good for battery life
 135 2013-03-01 00:41:28 <gmaxwell> HM: usb mining devices externally
 136 2013-03-01 00:43:27 rbecker is now known as RBecker
 137 2013-03-01 00:45:36 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
 138 2013-03-01 00:46:42 <Luke-Jr> HM: BFL MiniRig SC ships with an Android tablet running BFGMiner + a proprietary GUI
 139 2013-03-01 00:48:13 <gmaxwell> s/ships/will ship/
 140 2013-03-01 00:49:45 Zarutian has joined
 141 2013-03-01 00:51:19 <andytoshi> what is meant by VI in this picture?: https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/e/e1/TxBinaryMap.png
 142 2013-03-01 00:52:19 <eisla> Habla español alguien?
 143 2013-03-01 00:52:45 <sipa> andytoshi: VarInt
 144 2013-03-01 00:53:49 <andytoshi> sipa: thanks, how is this formatted? wiki doesn't say.
 145 2013-03-01 00:54:13 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Variable_length_integer
 146 2013-03-01 00:54:16 <sipa> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Variable_length_integer
 147 2013-03-01 00:54:21 <sipa> Luke-Jr wins
 148 2013-03-01 00:54:22 Muis has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 149 2013-03-01 00:54:42 <andytoshi> haha, thanks guys
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 163 2013-03-01 01:30:36 <HM> my favourite phrase from the sec2 document : "verifiably at random."
 164 2013-03-01 01:30:53 coolsa has joined
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 166 2013-03-01 01:33:12 <sipa> yes?
 167 2013-03-01 01:34:35 <HM> yes :P
 168 2013-03-01 01:36:19 <sipa> yes!
 169 2013-03-01 01:36:32 <sipa> running bitcoind in valgrind on a VPS is painfully slow
 170 2013-03-01 01:37:13 <HM> most things are painfully slow in valgrind
 171 2013-03-01 01:38:12 <HM> you looking for leaks?
 172 2013-03-01 01:39:00 <sipa> no, invalid memory access
 173 2013-03-01 01:39:09 <sipa> somehow i can reproduce it on my VPS but not on my laptop
 174 2013-03-01 01:39:29 <HM> nasty
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 177 2013-03-01 01:41:06 <sipa> 15 minutes already for "Verifying last 288 blocks at level 3"
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 179 2013-03-01 01:43:03 <HM> any more info on the memory  fault?
 180 2013-03-01 01:44:23 <sipa> it may take a day to reproduce, don't be hasty :)
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 182 2013-03-01 01:45:20 <sipa> it's probably a bug in #2016
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 192 2013-03-01 01:58:18 <sipa> etotheipi_: in your diagram: "Scripts and DER encoding both use big-endian values", shouldn't that be pubkeys and DER encoding?
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 224 2013-03-01 03:47:28 <andytoshi> does anyone know the javascript for (in) syntax off the top of their heads?
 225 2013-03-01 03:47:46 <andytoshi> if you do the obvious thing, it loops over the indices
 226 2013-03-01 03:49:33 <mappum> for an array or for properties of an object?
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 228 2013-03-01 03:52:11 <andytoshi> an array
 229 2013-03-01 03:52:20 <andytoshi> it's the tx array from the getblock output
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 232 2013-03-01 03:52:45 <mappum> for(var i = 0; i < tx.length; i++) {}
 233 2013-03-01 03:53:10 <mappum> but beware, i stays in scope afterward, which is a weird js gotcha
 234 2013-03-01 03:53:27 <andytoshi> i thought that's the point of putting 'var'?
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 236 2013-03-01 03:53:51 <mappum> var makes the variable live everywhere in that function
 237 2013-03-01 03:53:58 <mappum> they are adding the 'let
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 239 2013-03-01 03:54:08 <mappum> keyword which is only in that block
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 243 2013-03-01 03:54:36 <andytoshi> ah, i see
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 263 2013-03-01 04:51:53 <xjrn> under what circumstances can a block be garbage collected?
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 267 2013-03-01 04:54:43 <gmaxwell> xjrn: garbage collected where?
 268 2013-03-01 04:54:51 <gmaxwell> And are you asking about current software or the protocol?
 269 2013-03-01 04:55:30 <andytoshi> xjrn: in principle, if you've got an orphan block, you could throw that away because probably nobody is mining on it
 270 2013-03-01 04:55:48 <xjrn> gmaxwell: well, i guess that's part of what i don't know.  what defines orphan ?
 271 2013-03-01 04:56:06 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: you could always throw away an orphan, even if you reorg onto it you could fetch it again.. but thats only a percent or so..
 272 2013-03-01 04:56:39 <andytoshi> xjrn: every block has a hash of the block that came before it, forming a linear chain of blocks
 273 2013-03-01 04:56:47 <gmaxwell> xjrn: historical data which is part of the longest chain must be maintained forever by someone, because access to it is required to bootstrap a new full node.  Today all full nodes retain all of it.
 274 2013-03-01 04:57:08 <andytoshi> but sometimes there are multiple blocks which reference the same previous block
 275 2013-03-01 04:57:22 <andytoshi> and only one will become the longest chain, so the other is useless
 276 2013-03-01 04:57:26 <xjrn> i think i am concerned philosophically about the stringiness of satoshidice, for example, chewing up my ssd's; hypothetically almost not-really hypothetically
 277 2013-03-01 04:57:29 <gmaxwell> But the current software only uses the historical data to reorg into a different chain fork (so that only uses 'recent' blocks), and for serving to other new peers.
 278 2013-03-01 04:57:29 <andytoshi> that is what we call an "orphan"
 279 2013-03-01 04:59:24 <andytoshi> xjrn: i suppose, if all the transaction outputs of a block had been spent, you could drop that block
 280 2013-03-01 04:59:41 <andytoshi> but you'd be unable to bootstrap anyone else
 281 2013-03-01 05:00:09 <xjrn> so iiuc the entirity of bootstrapped history can be described more-or-less as a tree with nearly equal numbers of brnaches and leaves
 282 2013-03-01 05:00:16 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: see my answer above. :P   also unable to reorg below back past it. (unless you had code to go fetch the block and undo data somehow)
 283 2013-03-01 05:01:22 <gmaxwell> xjrn: the blockchain is a linked list, with a head and backreferences all the way back to the genesis... with occasional dangling spurs.
 284 2013-03-01 05:01:54 freakazoid has joined
 285 2013-03-01 05:01:58 <andytoshi> the history of the coins could be described as a directed acyclic graph
 286 2013-03-01 05:02:48 <andytoshi> but not a tree, and you'd have far more internal vertices than leaf ones
 287 2013-03-01 05:03:27 PRab has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 288 2013-03-01 05:04:11 <andytoshi> i guess the moral is, if you're worried about your SSD but also want a useful-for-validation block history, there's not much you can do
 289 2013-03-01 05:04:56 <andytoshi> there are SPV clients out there i think, which don't do their own validation and are much nicer to your system
 290 2013-03-01 05:05:50 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: sure, multibit.
 291 2013-03-01 05:06:12 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
 292 2013-03-01 05:08:34 <xjrn> alright, i guess in my mental picture i have a disconnect between miners and p2p nodes which i probably shouldn't have.  so miners and pools are in fact p2p nodes.  when a block is found it is subject to the usual voting.  (doing my software modelling thing here)...
 293 2013-03-01 05:09:13 <andytoshi> xjrn: no voting, it's always "longest chain wins"
 294 2013-03-01 05:10:52 WolfAlex has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 295 2013-03-01 05:11:02 <andytoshi> miners tend to be nodes, but they don't need to be (though they'd have a tough time knowing which block to mine on otherwise)
 296 2013-03-01 05:11:37 <xjrn> so... not longest block, but longest chain... so two equal chains need some sort of deadlock resolution
 297 2013-03-01 05:12:07 <andytoshi> xjrn: right, the resolution comes with the next block, since it can only choose one to be its parent
 298 2013-03-01 05:12:52 <andytoshi> as far as bitcoind is concerned, the first one it sees is the winner until it knows otherwise
 299 2013-03-01 05:13:11 <xjrn> i know mining is sha2, but i don't know of any hash that's statistically unique.  there must be occasions where two blocks exist concurrently
 300 2013-03-01 05:13:41 <andytoshi> xjrn: any crypto hash is stastically unique, the space is 2^256 large :)
 301 2013-03-01 05:13:51 <xjrn> andytoshi: as you say 'first one it sees', this would then be a vote
 302 2013-03-01 05:14:12 <andytoshi> no
 303 2013-03-01 05:15:01 <xjrn> two nodes in conflict about a successor block that differs would resolve it in thier own view by the number of peers supporting a given instance, no?
 304 2013-03-01 05:15:37 <andytoshi> no, they'd resolve it by whichever one they saw first, and later they'd resolve it by which one is in the longest chain
 305 2013-03-01 05:15:42 <andytoshi> as soon as "longest chain" is well-defined again
 306 2013-03-01 05:15:43 <xjrn> or are you saying both competing blocks are valid, but the one that follows either one is the new hieght
 307 2013-03-01 05:15:52 <andytoshi> yes, that's right
 308 2013-03-01 05:17:46 <xjrn> so a 51% attack is backfilling any level of the chain, not just the root
 309 2013-03-01 05:17:48 gritcoin has joined
 310 2013-03-01 05:18:38 <andytoshi> xjrn: right, but you've gotta overwrite enough blocks that your height beats the old chain's height
 311 2013-03-01 05:18:50 <andytoshi> otherwise nobody will pay attention to your "attack"
 312 2013-03-01 05:19:15 <xjrn> you might get lucky, however, like eligius's double block a couple days ago
 313 2013-03-01 05:19:41 <andytoshi> very true, that's why most places require six confirmations
 314 2013-03-01 05:19:44 <xjrn> if you lag and fall into a local medium of short blocks you stand to invalidate the majority
 315 2013-03-01 05:20:05 <andytoshi> that's correct, but very very unlikely for more than 2 blocks
 316 2013-03-01 05:20:11 <andytoshi> (only one 'very' before then :))
 317 2013-03-01 05:24:38 Nesetalis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 318 2013-03-01 05:25:21 <xjrn> so what happens when ddos becomes more than a little bit entrenched, like satoshidice cubed, times a hundred? I do truly hold my ssds in high regard.
 319 2013-03-01 05:25:27 Nesetalis has joined
 320 2013-03-01 05:26:22 <andytoshi> xjrn: blocks are limited to 1Mb in size
 321 2013-03-01 05:26:47 <andytoshi> miners decide what transactions get in, and many of them already exclude SD
 322 2013-03-01 05:27:04 <Luke-Jr> sadly not all yet
 323 2013-03-01 05:27:11 <Luke-Jr> need to get more miners on responsible pools
 324 2013-03-01 05:27:26 <xjrn> does it become a question of reworking the p2p clients to suspend disbeleif and reorg around a new root?
 325 2013-03-01 05:28:01 <xjrn> p2p shitlisting works well for the obvious offenders but ....
 326 2013-03-01 05:28:37 <gmaxwell> xjrn: really the SD thing is mostly self correcting.. its burning up our startup capital but ultimately it can't break anything.
 327 2013-03-01 05:29:06 <gmaxwell> competition for space will drive up fees and out inefficient uses.
 328 2013-03-01 05:29:44 <xjrn> i was unaware of the megabyte limit.
 329 2013-03-01 05:29:49 <gmaxwell> the down side is that bloated blocks this early in bitcoins life will slow adoption and promote centralization.
 330 2013-03-01 05:31:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I wonder if we might reconsider accepting proof-of-work fees instead of payment
 331 2013-03-01 05:31:28 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that prevents SD-like flooders from outsourcing their cost
 332 2013-03-01 05:31:41 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: they could still, alas.
 333 2013-03-01 05:31:54 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: only on one end?
 334 2013-03-01 05:32:01 dooglus has quit (Quit: leaving)
 335 2013-03-01 05:32:06 <Luke-Jr> their return transactions would have to be paid out of pocket
 336 2013-03-01 05:32:08 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: nah, just have a client...
 337 2013-03-01 05:32:14 dooglus has joined
 338 2013-03-01 05:32:28 <gmaxwell> they'd give you the refund, and you'd mine it.
 339 2013-03-01 05:32:39 <gmaxwell> (or not, and they keep the money, hurrah)
 340 2013-03-01 05:32:43 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: we wouldn't add support for that in the client? ;)
 341 2013-03-01 05:33:04 <gmaxwell> if their existance really depends on whats in the reference client ...
 342 2013-03-01 05:33:06 <Luke-Jr> also, sipa's canonical txn stuff could be used
 343 2013-03-01 05:33:33 <Luke-Jr> eg, include signing in the POW time ;)
 344 2013-03-01 05:33:36 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
 345 2013-03-01 05:34:15 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I still think someone needs to get an external fee system setup.
 346 2013-03-01 05:34:28 weex has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 347 2013-03-01 05:34:56 <xjrn> have their been any fundamental amendments to the original bitcoin peering constraints since block 0?
 348 2013-03-01 05:35:13 <gmaxwell> xjrn: do you mean block validation rules?
 349 2013-03-01 05:35:21 <xjrn> gmaxwell: i think so
 350 2013-03-01 05:35:42 <gmaxwell> xjrn: so an original client could still validate the current chain. Though we do impose some additional rules due mostly to flaws in the original design.
 351 2013-03-01 05:36:10 <andytoshi> there are also many 'nonstandard' transactions that are legal, but bitcoind nodes won't relay them
 352 2013-03-01 05:36:17 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/CVEs more or less covers every breaking change since 0.3.x
 353 2013-03-01 05:36:17 <andytoshi> so you'd need to get them to miners directly
 354 2013-03-01 05:36:22 <Luke-Jr> (that is, including 0.3.x)
 355 2013-03-01 05:36:31 <andytoshi> e.g., transactions with future locktimes
 356 2013-03-01 05:36:52 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: miners can't do much with those anyway
 357 2013-03-01 05:37:01 weex has joined
 358 2013-03-01 05:37:02 weex has quit (Changing host)
 359 2013-03-01 05:37:02 weex has joined
 360 2013-03-01 05:37:02 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: well, thats a client practice not a rule: it's not enforced.  Might call it a "norm" instead of a rule.
 361 2013-03-01 05:37:24 <andytoshi> Luke-Jr: yeah, it was a bad example
 362 2013-03-01 05:37:39 <gmaxwell> for example, it was originally possible for miners to create duplicate transactions, which could be used in a complicated way to make the network not converge. This is nor forbidden.
 363 2013-03-01 05:37:49 <gmaxwell> er. _now_ forbidden.
 364 2013-03-01 05:38:26 <gmaxwell> or at one point it was possible to make a billion bitcoins out of thin air by a value overflow. ... thats not permitted anymore. :P
 365 2013-03-01 05:39:48 one_zero has joined
 366 2013-03-01 05:40:14 ThomasV has joined
 367 2013-03-01 05:40:16 <Luke-Jr> (retroactively)
 368 2013-03-01 05:42:30 <xjrn> i guess that's not worth following then.   i know next to nothing about what is being hashed or where the difficulty is applied
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 390 2013-03-01 05:52:03 ivan\_ is now known as ivan\
 391 2013-03-01 05:52:30 idstam has joined
 392 2013-03-01 05:57:28 <xjrn>  https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm does not actually say what defines a block in bitcoin. when does SHA256(SHA256(Block_Header)) create a block in the bitcoin blockchain ?
 393 2013-03-01 05:59:04 CodeShark has joined
 394 2013-03-01 05:59:30 <Luke-Jr> xjrn: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Target
 395 2013-03-01 06:04:57 swappermall_ has joined
 396 2013-03-01 06:06:23 <xjrn> nonce is incremented by one ?
 397 2013-03-01 06:07:11 <andytoshi> xjrn: correct, one is as good as anything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalanche_effect
 398 2013-03-01 06:07:15 <Graet> https://blockchain.info/address/1CufZT4UJuXgkzxQtze26XY6Wy8Ce2ZNNc  spam much ? :(
 399 2013-03-01 06:08:04 <andytoshi> Graet: is that SD?
 400 2013-03-01 06:08:46 <Graet> hope not I got a 0.00001txn , and i have never SD
 401 2013-03-01 06:08:49 <andytoshi> one address contains spmHiTs
 402 2013-03-01 06:09:00 <andytoshi> https://blockchain.info/address/1JsESpmHiTsFLwZ672UT7CTvDmXo42dzpD
 403 2013-03-01 06:09:17 <Graet> and thats a um, "not public" wallet it went to
 404 2013-03-01 06:09:40 <Luke-Jr> spamming addresses in the blockchain at random I guess then
 405 2013-03-01 06:09:40 <andytoshi> did you request it?
 406 2013-03-01 06:10:13 <Graet> no, i was surprised to see a txn ojn that wallet, thats why i went to see where it came from
 407 2013-03-01 06:10:15 gritcoin has joined
 408 2013-03-01 06:10:19 <Graet> thats my guess Luke-Jr :/
 409 2013-03-01 06:10:58 <Luke-Jr> Graet: there's some guy spamming my main wallet like every day XD
 410 2013-03-01 06:11:02 <andytoshi> weird, maybe someone is trying to wreck a taint analysis
 411 2013-03-01 06:11:12 <Graet> damn Luke-Jr :/
 412 2013-03-01 06:11:17 <Luke-Jr> 0.00060407 BTC every time
 413 2013-03-01 06:12:50 grau has joined
 414 2013-03-01 06:14:34 <andytoshi> hmm 60407 is the zip for BRACEVILLE IL
 415 2013-03-01 06:14:47 <andytoshi> which is an anagram for...
 416 2013-03-01 06:15:19 <xjrn> gpu's hash one header per-shader more or less ?
 417 2013-03-01 06:15:41 <xjrn> then all they have to do is increment and do it again ?
 418 2013-03-01 06:16:14 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: lol
 419 2013-03-01 06:16:38 <Luke-Jr> xjrn: no incrementing necessary
 420 2013-03-01 06:17:01 <Luke-Jr> xjrn: one nonce per shader per execution
 421 2013-03-01 06:17:04 gritcoin_ has joined
 422 2013-03-01 06:17:09 <Luke-Jr> just throw all the nonces at the shaders in any order
 423 2013-03-01 06:17:11 gritcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 424 2013-03-01 06:17:11 gritcoin_ is now known as gritcoin
 425 2013-03-01 06:17:24 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
 426 2013-03-01 06:17:53 <xjrn> increment in the hypothetical sense, or timerticks for that matter
 427 2013-03-01 06:18:09 one_zero has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 428 2013-03-01 06:18:26 <xjrn> something that can be held/replaced in a register
 429 2013-03-01 06:25:27 toffoo has quit ()
 430 2013-03-01 06:25:56 Maneesh has joined
 431 2013-03-01 06:26:10 Maneesh has quit (Client Quit)
 432 2013-03-01 06:28:49 <andytoshi> hey, can somebody check the fingerprint of LWN.net's SSL cert for me?
 433 2013-03-01 06:29:45 <xjrn> firefox doesn't squeal
 434 2013-03-01 06:29:59 <andytoshi> i have D7:1B:88:AA:CA:1A:CC:5B:34:EE:45:04:A2:DC:0C:F2:A3:A3:11:BF and firefox is squealing
 435 2013-03-01 06:30:02 <andytoshi> and it wasn't earlier
 436 2013-03-01 06:30:05 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 437 2013-03-01 06:30:11 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: !
 438 2013-03-01 06:30:20 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: is that the sha1?
 439 2013-03-01 06:30:25 <andytoshi> correct
 440 2013-03-01 06:30:29 <gmaxwell> doesn't match for me.
 441 2013-03-01 06:30:34 <andytoshi> i'm going through tor, so not super surprised..
 442 2013-03-01 06:30:55 <gmaxwell> it's annoying you can't copy the fingerprint out of firefox.
 443 2013-03-01 06:30:58 <andytoshi> issuer is "Main Authority", "main.authority.com"
 444 2013-03-01 06:31:02 <andytoshi> yeah, very irritating
 445 2013-03-01 06:31:08 <andytoshi> i typed that onte out
 446 2013-03-01 06:31:10 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: whats the CA?
 447 2013-03-01 06:31:18 <gmaxwell> oh thats the ca. main.authority.com lol
 448 2013-03-01 06:31:46 <andytoshi> yep, CN "main.authority.com", O "Main Authority", OU "Certificate Management"
 449 2013-03-01 06:31:50 <gmaxwell> I wish the tor directories had a distributed bullshit reporting method, and that exits signed the traffic so you could prove you got BS from an exit.
 450 2013-03-01 06:31:56 <xjrn> 02:19:c6:... here
 451 2013-03-01 06:31:59 <gmaxwell> sadly, signing is slow.
 452 2013-03-01 06:32:05 <gritcoin> 02 19 C6 83 60 19 89 F8 15 8E 1A BB 85 83 29 F6 16 FC 5F A6
 453 2013-03-01 06:32:07 <gmaxwell> xjrn: right.
 454 2013-03-01 06:32:08 <andytoshi> how do i tell who the exit is?
 455 2013-03-01 06:32:16 <andytoshi> quick, before it changes :P
 456 2013-03-01 06:32:29 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: I dunno only if logging is turned up....
 457 2013-03-01 06:32:39 <gmaxwell> probably a way via the control port.
 458 2013-03-01 06:32:51 <andytoshi> i don't remember my password :s
 459 2013-03-01 06:32:56 <gritcoin> CA is Geotrust Global
 460 2013-03-01 06:33:51 <andytoshi> damn, exit changed, don't have logs
 461 2013-03-01 06:34:12 <andytoshi> thx guys, i'll turn on my logs now..
 462 2013-03-01 06:37:53 grau has joined
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 472 2013-03-01 06:50:35 <andytoshi> is anyone familiar with the 'js' javascript interpreter on fedora?
 473 2013-03-01 06:50:42 <andytoshi> JavaScript-C 1.8.5 2011-03-31
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 478 2013-03-01 06:55:01 <SomeoneWeird> andytoshi, what about it?
 479 2013-03-01 06:55:32 <andytoshi> i'd like to call shell commands from it
 480 2013-03-01 06:55:35 BenderCoin has joined
 481 2013-03-01 06:56:04 <SomeoneWeird> uh, why?
 482 2013-03-01 06:56:25 Guest61609 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 483 2013-03-01 06:56:53 <andytoshi> i'm parsing the output of getblock, but for each txid i need to call bitcoind again to do getrawtransaction
 484 2013-03-01 06:57:03 <andytoshi> ..and then pipe that into a translator
 485 2013-03-01 07:00:08 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: … you're doing it wrong
 486 2013-03-01 07:00:15 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: uh, use a lanaugage that can make json rpc calls?
 487 2013-03-01 07:00:22 <gmaxwell> invoking the shell is going to be SLLOW
 488 2013-03-01 07:03:24 <andytoshi> all good points, i think i'll learn perl then
 489 2013-03-01 07:05:52 Mandrius has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 490 2013-03-01 07:07:07 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: python would be the normal advice. It's popular in the bitcoin universe... (and perl seems to be dying out in OSS land in general)
 491 2013-03-01 07:07:42 free__ has joined
 492 2013-03-01 07:09:08 <freewil> yeah perl is over the hill
 493 2013-03-01 07:10:35 <SomeoneWeird> use js!
 494 2013-03-01 07:10:36 <SomeoneWeird> lol
 495 2013-03-01 07:10:45 <Luke-Jr> sadly, CPAN is full of incomplete or unmaintained modules :<
 496 2013-03-01 07:10:54 <freewil> yeah i have fun with node.js
 497 2013-03-01 07:11:02 <freewil> i maintain the bitcoin module for it
 498 2013-03-01 07:11:13 <Luke-Jr> freewil: do you have the mining pool software?
 499 2013-03-01 07:11:25 <freewil> no, what software
 500 2013-03-01 07:12:50 <Luke-Jr> there was once a node.js mining pool
 501 2013-03-01 07:13:11 <freewil> oh
 502 2013-03-01 07:13:29 <freewil> why, you trying to find it?
 503 2013-03-01 07:14:39 <Luke-Jr> I'd prefer to have a copy of any software, than not :p
 504 2013-03-01 07:16:35 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 505 2013-03-01 07:20:50 Mandrius has joined
 506 2013-03-01 07:22:11 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: any language that can make HTTP requests can make json rpc calls
 507 2013-03-01 07:22:28 <CodeShark> fedora js cannot?
 508 2013-03-01 07:22:34 gritcoin has joined
 509 2013-03-01 07:22:46 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I wasn't sure if 'js' had some kind of sandbox that wouldn't let it. Otherwise why would andytoshi be calling system? :P
 510 2013-03-01 07:23:01 <gmaxwell> sandbox/unimplemented network stack
 511 2013-03-01 07:23:16 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: it appears to have nearly nothing except a emcascript parser
 512 2013-03-01 07:23:33 <andytoshi> i'm passing json into it through shell
 513 2013-03-01 07:23:47 <andytoshi> then using 'print' to get it back out into shell
 514 2013-03-01 07:24:18 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 515 2013-03-01 07:25:11 <CodeShark> yeah, sounds like considerable overhead
 516 2013-03-01 07:25:39 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 517 2013-03-01 07:26:31 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: I'm sure nodejs can do what you need, but I know nothing about it.
 518 2013-03-01 07:26:43 <CodeShark> node.js can certainly make HTTP requests - lol
 519 2013-03-01 07:27:13 <CodeShark> node.js actually makes it fairly easy to work with HTTP and JSON
 520 2013-03-01 07:28:13 <CodeShark> and it uses the V8 engine, so it's a lot faster than a simple interpreter
 521 2013-03-01 07:30:18 <gmaxwell> (probably much faster than cpython as well)
 522 2013-03-01 07:31:12 <gjs278> obv you should be using golang
 523 2013-03-01 07:33:26 <andytoshi> well, looks like perl is out because i can't find a maintained json-rpc client on cpan
 524 2013-03-01 07:34:24 <andytoshi> i'm not clear on what node.js is, and the webpage is all one color with a "content is uncool" 2010's design
 525 2013-03-01 07:34:39 <gjs278> ...
 526 2013-03-01 07:34:44 <gjs278> json::rpc doesn't work?
 527 2013-03-01 07:34:45 <gjs278> how
 528 2013-03-01 07:34:54 <andytoshi> gjs278: it is a server
 529 2013-03-01 07:35:03 <gjs278> I refuse to believe perl doesn't have modules for json rpc
 530 2013-03-01 07:35:18 <andytoshi> and the docs are very vague as to what it actually does
 531 2013-03-01 07:35:37 <andytoshi> gjs278: json::rpc::legacy::client works, though it won't auth
 532 2013-03-01 07:35:42 abrkn\ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 533 2013-03-01 07:36:00 abrkn has joined
 534 2013-03-01 07:36:05 <gjs278> http://search.cpan.org/~makamaka/JSON-RPC-0.96/lib/JSON/RPC/Client.pm
 535 2013-03-01 07:36:08 <gjs278> that can't auth?
 536 2013-03-01 07:36:58 darksk1ez has quit (Excess Flood)
 537 2013-03-01 07:37:05 <gjs278> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_%28JSON-RPC%29#Perl
 538 2013-03-01 07:37:19 <andytoshi> gjs278: correct
 539 2013-03-01 07:37:30 darksk1ez has joined
 540 2013-03-01 07:37:43 <buddyrandom> what do you mean it can't auth?
 541 2013-03-01 07:38:40 <andytoshi> gjs278: oh, thanks
 542 2013-03-01 07:38:44 <gjs278> lol
 543 2013-03-01 07:38:52 <andytoshi> buddyrandom: i mean, it is missing documentation
 544 2013-03-01 07:39:45 <gjs278> well
 545 2013-03-01 07:39:46 <gjs278> sort of
 546 2013-03-01 07:39:53 <gjs278> it tells you ua is http://search.cpan.org/~gaas/libwww-perl-6.04/lib/LWP/UserAgent.pm
 547 2013-03-01 07:39:58 <gjs278> and ua is what auths
 548 2013-03-01 07:40:06 <buddyrandom> You might do well to just read about json rpc a bit
 549 2013-03-01 07:40:19 <buddyrandom> that could fill in the blanks your thinking are missing
 550 2013-03-01 07:41:04 <buddyrandom> like check this out first http://json-rpc.org/wiki/specification
 551 2013-03-01 07:41:33 <andytoshi> buddyrandom: ?? i understand json-rpc
 552 2013-03-01 07:41:58 <andytoshi> just not cpan, apparently
 553 2013-03-01 07:44:44 <buddyrandom> fair enough
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 556 2013-03-01 07:45:59 <andytoshi> sorry, i didn't mean to sound so abrasive
 557 2013-03-01 07:47:46 <buddyrandom> heh all good
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 559 2013-03-01 07:49:56 <andytoshi> also, i should read that link, because i've never said "i understand xxx" and been correct
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 606 2013-03-01 09:37:47 <bitnumus> any serious coders here from europpe ?
 607 2013-03-01 09:38:09 <sipa> none at all
 608 2013-03-01 09:38:16 <_dr> you mean like java? heh
 609 2013-03-01 09:38:23 <bitnumus> Well 6 weeks down the line and i've had 2 bail on me
 610 2013-03-01 09:38:36 <bitnumus> so i would like someone who can actually follow through on a projet
 611 2013-03-01 09:39:11 <jrmithdobbs> Doin greeat selling us on your project so far
 612 2013-03-01 09:39:14 <jrmithdobbs> Continue
 613 2013-03-01 09:39:29 <bitnumus> jrmithdobbs, where abouts are you from?
 614 2013-03-01 09:39:34 MrMeowork has joined
 615 2013-03-01 09:40:08 <jrmithdobbs> Around abouts urmoms anus I suppose
 616 2013-03-01 09:40:14 <grau> bitnumus: what is it about?
 617 2013-03-01 09:40:18 <bitnumus> wow thats mature...
 618 2013-03-01 09:40:29 <bitnumus> ill PM grau
 619 2013-03-01 09:40:47 <bitnumus> jrmithdobbs, this isn't the school playground
 620 2013-03-01 09:41:24 <SomeoneWeird> jrmithdobbs, dont be stupid
 621 2013-03-01 09:41:33 <jrmithdobbs> Im unsure how you can make such a statement about feeenode... ;p
 622 2013-03-01 09:42:24 <bitnumus> Anybody who 100% has the time to start and finish a new project, feel free to PM me, i've been quoted 30hours of work
 623 2013-03-01 09:42:28 <bitnumus> to give an idea
 624 2013-03-01 09:44:09 <_dr> i think this channel is hardly the place to look for people that might be interested in working for someone who cannot even talk straight about what the work is about :P
 625 2013-03-01 09:44:53 xjrn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 626 2013-03-01 09:44:58 <bitnumus> _dr, why must i announce it to the whole chan ?
 627 2013-03-01 09:45:12 <bitnumus> im already in PMs with two people. who i can forward a spec to
 628 2013-03-01 09:45:14 <jrmithdobbs> Don't know, why did you
 629 2013-03-01 09:45:28 <bitnumus> so people can private message me? jrmithdobbs go back into your hole again please
 630 2013-03-01 09:47:03 <jrmithdobbs> Right after you wander back to LinkedIn
 631 2013-03-01 09:47:09 <SomeoneWeird> yeah seriously jrmithdobbs, stop it
 632 2013-03-01 09:47:31 <jouke> I think it is funny :x
 633 2013-03-01 09:47:56 <SomeoneWeird> not for this channel it's nott
 634 2013-03-01 09:48:17 <jrmithdobbs> That's your opinion
 635 2013-03-01 09:48:25 <jrmithdobbs> And it sucks
 636 2013-03-01 09:48:26 <bitnumus> I dont see what was wrong with asking for somebody who 100% has the time to start and complete a project, yes you may think anyone interested in doing it would be, but i've been proven wrong twice now.
 637 2013-03-01 09:49:45 <weex> bitnumus: they say managing programmers is like herding cats
 638 2013-03-01 09:49:56 <jouke> bitnumus: but why is that, any idea?
 639 2013-03-01 09:50:27 <bitnumus> the first guy, got a new full-time job...
 640 2013-03-01 09:50:43 <bitnumus> the second, one of this team of programmers handling the rails code bailed on him
 641 2013-03-01 09:50:57 <bitnumus> both from here.
 642 2013-03-01 09:52:25 newy6 has joined
 643 2013-03-01 09:52:37 <jrmithdobbs> 3rd time's the charm
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 646 2013-03-01 10:07:43 <sipa> i think most good programmers here already have enough to do (whether bitcoin-related or a day job)... of course, some may not and i don't mind anyonr asking (#bitcoin is more suited though, this channel is more about dev discussions), but please don't keep repeating
 647 2013-03-01 10:08:56 <bitnumus> 'All related discussions are welcome' i think this channel is more apt than #bitcoin
 648 2013-03-01 10:09:14 axhlf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 649 2013-03-01 10:09:37 <sipa> perhaps yes
 650 2013-03-01 10:09:51 tgs3_ has joined
 651 2013-03-01 10:10:40 <tgs3_> for new users it would be better to have direct link to .zip of stable source code on the bitcoin.org also with .sig
 652 2013-03-01 10:11:18 <sipa> tgs3_: pull requests welcome
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 656 2013-03-01 10:24:14 <tgs3_> 0.8 still seems to load computer i/o, is this problem not fixed?
 657 2013-03-01 10:26:45 <tgs3_> sipa: when you download the .zip of bitcoin-master from git, are there any signatures now? is the source signed in anyway that I can verify other then take sha512 of .zip and ask here?
 658 2013-03-01 10:30:26 <sipa> if you go to the sf download page, you'll find signed checksums
 659 2013-03-01 10:30:58 <sipa> the mac and win installers are signed by the foundation
 660 2013-03-01 10:31:20 <sipa> and iirc the git version tags also carry gpg signatures
 661 2013-03-01 10:32:53 <sipa> and running a full bitcoin node will always require some resources
 662 2013-03-01 10:40:46 axhlf has joined
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 664 2013-03-01 10:47:21 <tgs3_> sipa: it is not some resources
 665 2013-03-01 10:48:00 <tgs3_> play a movie from hdd with bitcoin downloading blockchain - movie freezes 10 sec and jumps. same for other programs using files e.g. firefox
 666 2013-03-01 10:48:41 <tgs3_> it was enough to make people to whom I recommended bitcoin give up on using it
 667 2013-03-01 10:51:37 dingbats has joined
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 670 2013-03-01 10:52:57 <dingbats> I am trying to find  papers on math employed by bitcoin , any good pointers?
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 673 2013-03-01 10:55:46 <_dr> the original paper?
 674 2013-03-01 10:56:07 <_dr> it mentions the math that is used, but now why it uses said math or how said math works :)
 675 2013-03-01 10:56:50 <_dr> signatures use ECDSA, hashing is done with ripemd160 and sha-1, i think that's about it
 676 2013-03-01 10:59:26 <dingbats> any links to the orginal paper?
 677 2013-03-01 10:59:40 <_dr> bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf methinks
 678 2013-03-01 10:59:58 <sipa> tgs3_: that shouldn't happen; what OS and hard drive/cpu/ram?
 679 2013-03-01 11:00:05 <_dr> be prepared to read it about 20 times
 680 2013-03-01 11:00:55 <sipa> _dr: sha256 instead of sha1
 681 2013-03-01 11:01:26 <dingbats> thanks _dr
 682 2013-03-01 11:01:35 <_dr> of course, sorry sipa :)
 683 2013-03-01 11:01:55 <tgs3_> sipa: ubuntu, debian. normal ok computers (1gb ram free/cache out of 2-4 gb). regular hard drive
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 685 2013-03-01 11:02:25 <Diablo-D3> _dr: WHICH hashing
 686 2013-03-01 11:02:35 <tgs3_> sipa: it gets better when all is downloaded afair, but if you turn on computer after night it is bad
 687 2013-03-01 11:02:44 <Diablo-D3> hashing of the public keys to produce a signature (aka the bit coin address) is ripped160 and sha256
 688 2013-03-01 11:02:50 <Diablo-D3> hashing, aka mining, is hmac sha256
 689 2013-03-01 11:02:51 <petertodd>  can anyone think of something I could buy with bitpay? I need to test something.
 690 2013-03-01 11:03:01 <petertodd> (or if bitpay has a test site)
 691 2013-03-01 11:03:21 <sipa> tgs3_: interesting
 692 2013-03-01 11:05:02 <tgs3_> sipa: we will confirm with more users, but it was really very bad
 693 2013-03-01 11:05:43 nowan has joined
 694 2013-03-01 11:05:57 <sipa> if anything, 0.8 should do far less io operations, and far less fsyncs than earlier versions
 695 2013-03-01 11:06:13 <Eliel_> but it does them much more efficiently :)
 696 2013-03-01 11:06:26 <_dr> i can confirm that disk io still causes severe lags when syncing, too (mac)
 697 2013-03-01 11:06:39 <Diablo-D3> sipa: btw
 698 2013-03-01 11:06:47 <Diablo-D3> 0.8.0 is quite smoother on my box
 699 2013-03-01 11:06:48 <sipa> it will however use all your available cpu cores (by default) to validate signatures
 700 2013-03-01 11:06:59 <Diablo-D3> _dr: mac has a really shitty io queue design, btw
 701 2013-03-01 11:07:01 <sipa> instead of just
 702 2013-03-01 11:07:03 <sipa> 1
 703 2013-03-01 11:07:09 <Eliel_> the 0.8 syncing process affected our bitcoind server's ping times as well.
 704 2013-03-01 11:07:13 <_dr> well, it's because they have a microkernel :)
 705 2013-03-01 11:07:14 <Diablo-D3> _dr: its hard to fix if you're banging slow disks
 706 2013-03-01 11:07:21 <Diablo-D3> no, not because its a microkernel
 707 2013-03-01 11:07:25 <Diablo-D3> and its not even a real microkernel
 708 2013-03-01 11:07:36 <Diablo-D3> its a microkernel with huge monolithic chunks attached
 709 2013-03-01 11:07:38 <Eliel_> although, granted, another VPS on the same system was also doing compressed encrypted backups at the same time too.
 710 2013-03-01 11:07:49 <Eliel_> so both cores were loaded.
 711 2013-03-01 11:07:52 <Diablo-D3> if it was a true message passing microkernel through and through, IO bursts wouldn't lag machines
 712 2013-03-01 11:08:11 <Diablo-D3> OSen don't use device specific IO queues]
 713 2013-03-01 11:08:14 <_dr> well, it doesn't lag the machine
 714 2013-03-01 11:08:17 <Diablo-D3> instead they use one giant one
 715 2013-03-01 11:08:19 <_dr> it lags the harddisk :)
 716 2013-03-01 11:08:27 <Diablo-D3> _dr: oh, thats normal
 717 2013-03-01 11:08:33 <_dr> the rest of the system is responsive
 718 2013-03-01 11:08:42 <_dr> Diablo-D3: yeah, i know
 719 2013-03-01 11:08:45 <Diablo-D3> osx probably should switch to a deadline queue
 720 2013-03-01 11:08:50 <Diablo-D3> it'd mask a lot of the bullshit
 721 2013-03-01 11:09:46 <Diablo-D3> on linux, deadline and bfq perform a lot better under database type loads
 722 2013-03-01 11:09:53 <Diablo-D3> which includes bitcoin
 723 2013-03-01 11:10:44 <tgs3_> sipa: well it is not more then before.. just still a lot, probably because of the huge satoshidice blocks
 724 2013-03-01 11:10:53 <dingbats> _dr, i just read your link, the design is really elegant and robust,.. I feel the need to run some simulations to validate his ideas,  has this been done before..
 725 2013-03-01 11:10:55 <_dr> yeah well, osx is a desktop os, and i want my desktop to be responsive
 726 2013-03-01 11:10:56 <dingbats> ?
 727 2013-03-01 11:11:24 <dingbats> Hwat about wallet storage? how is that handled,  ..., is the code of bitcoin clients heavily commented and documented?
 728 2013-03-01 11:11:28 <tgs3_> bitcoin should by default run as  ionice 3 nice -n 19
 729 2013-03-01 11:11:33 <tgs3_> on linux
 730 2013-03-01 11:12:08 <tgs3_> ionice -c 3 nice -n 19
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 734 2013-03-01 11:22:13 <dingbats> do we have bitcoin on github?
 735 2013-03-01 11:24:14 <ciphermonk> the reference implementation is maintained on github: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
 736 2013-03-01 11:39:32 dingbats is now known as FatAgnus
 737 2013-03-01 11:40:32 <FatAgnus> hi
 738 2013-03-01 11:40:36 <FatAgnus> !ticker
 739 2013-03-01 11:40:36 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 34.23535, Best ask: 34.41991, Bid-ask spread: 0.18456, Last trade: 34.23535, 24 hour volume: 74930.15800037, 24 hour low: 30.90200, 24 hour high: 34.51541, 24 hour vwap: 33.19302
 740 2013-03-01 11:40:51 <FatAgnus> !ticker -last
 741 2013-03-01 11:40:51 <gribble> (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg] [--currency XXX]) -- Return pretty-printed mtgox ticker. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure that the three letter code you enter is a valid currency (1 more message)
 742 2013-03-01 11:41:00 <FatAgnus> !ticker --last
 743 2013-03-01 11:41:01 <gribble> 34.23535
 744 2013-03-01 11:45:06 monkeynipples has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 745 2013-03-01 11:45:12 <FatAgnus> not bad
 746 2013-03-01 11:45:40 monkeynipples has joined
 747 2013-03-01 11:47:23 vbuterin has joined
 748 2013-03-01 11:52:04 <FatAgnus> !ticker --last
 749 2013-03-01 11:52:05 <gribble> 34.31318
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 752 2013-03-01 12:00:17 rbecker is now known as RBecker
 753 2013-03-01 12:01:47 <nowan> !ticker --last
 754 2013-03-01 12:01:47 <gribble> 34.36999
 755 2013-03-01 12:05:19 <FatAgnus> !ticker --last
 756 2013-03-01 12:05:20 <gribble> 34.44994
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 767 2013-03-01 12:25:58 <AIEK> Hi
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 795 2013-03-01 13:48:12 <Diablo-D3> spacex is going to launch the dragon again at 10:10AM EST http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html
 796 2013-03-01 13:48:27 <HM> thanks Diablo-D3
 797 2013-03-01 13:48:45 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: seriously, you don't need to spam off-topic links in every bitcoin channel -.-
 798 2013-03-01 13:49:03 <Scrat> /amsg is evil
 799 2013-03-01 13:49:30 <Diablo-D3> /amsg is awesome
 800 2013-03-01 13:49:43 Shealan has joined
 801 2013-03-01 13:52:04 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: theres a huge number of spacex fans in here
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 812 2013-03-01 14:04:26 asuej has joined
 813 2013-03-01 14:04:37 <asuej> Hi
 814 2013-03-01 14:07:47 kakobrekla has joined
 815 2013-03-01 14:08:00 <kakobrekla> is there a limit howmany addys can a SENDMANY take
 816 2013-03-01 14:09:26 kicek has joined
 817 2013-03-01 14:09:35 <sipa> not really, but the transaction size will increase
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 820 2013-03-01 14:20:06 <kakobrekla> listen
 821 2013-03-01 14:20:11 <kakobrekla> when i do json encode for sendmany
 822 2013-03-01 14:20:13 <kakobrekla> i get this
 823 2013-03-01 14:20:13 <kakobrekla> "112wRwUf9WoufA6BjcztabKbxbM81wgbrv":5.947e-5,
 824 2013-03-01 14:20:26 <kakobrekla> note
 825 2013-03-01 14:20:31 <kakobrekla> that that is correct json format
 826 2013-03-01 14:20:41 <kakobrekla> the input is not scientific notation
 827 2013-03-01 14:20:49 <kakobrekla> bitcoind should be able to chew through it
 828 2013-03-01 14:22:42 <sipa> it doesn't?
 829 2013-03-01 14:23:58 <kakobrekla> aparently not
 830 2013-03-01 14:23:58 <sipa> and i'm not sure what you mean by 'the input'
 831 2013-03-01 14:24:07 <kakobrekla> the input to json_encode
 832 2013-03-01 14:25:23 <sipa> no idea what language you're using, or what json_encode it, but in all likelihood it is a number, and not an encoded form
 833 2013-03-01 14:25:32 <sipa> so 'scientific notation' doesn't mean much
 834 2013-03-01 14:25:36 <sipa> anyway, what is the error you get?
 835 2013-03-01 14:25:53 <sipa> as i agree that scientific notation is valid json, so bitcoind should handle it
 836 2013-03-01 14:26:00 <tgs3_> sounds like PHP
 837 2013-03-01 14:26:10 <kakobrekla> yes its php but that is not relevant here
 838 2013-03-01 14:26:21 <sipa> (though it sounds like a very bad idea to encode currency values using floating point)
 839 2013-03-01 14:26:29 <kakobrekla> json will do that because of ieee754 iirc
 840 2013-03-01 14:26:43 <sipa> json doesn't specify what a number is, or its semantics
 841 2013-03-01 14:26:47 <sipa> only the encoding is defined
 842 2013-03-01 14:28:11 <kakobrekla> i still am not sure what the solution is
 843 2013-03-01 14:28:18 <kakobrekla> error: {"code":-4,"message":"Transaction creation failed"}
 844 2013-03-01 14:28:23 <kakobrekla> with the sci notation
 845 2013-03-01 14:29:39 _DeBuG_ has joined
 846 2013-03-01 14:29:39 <kakobrekla> hmmm
 847 2013-03-01 14:29:39 <sipa> i doubt that's related to the notation
 848 2013-03-01 14:29:45 <_DeBuG_> holaa
 849 2013-03-01 14:29:50 <kakobrekla> sipa possible
 850 2013-03-01 14:29:53 <kakobrekla> lemme do more test
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 858 2013-03-01 14:55:25 <TD> hello
 859 2013-03-01 14:57:37 <grau> hi TD
 860 2013-03-01 15:01:00 Neskia is now known as Nesetalis
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 862 2013-03-01 15:05:57 <HM> anyone got any recommendations for a C++ library that handles the sec256k1 curve? I'm looking at cryptopp atm
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 866 2013-03-01 15:06:46 <TD> HM: openssl
 867 2013-03-01 15:06:55 <HM> yeaaah....
 868 2013-03-01 15:07:11 <HM> I was hoping to avoid the ugliness of OpenSSL
 869 2013-03-01 15:07:29 <TD> it's ugly but robust
 870 2013-03-01 15:08:27 <HM> it's certainly one of those things
 871 2013-03-01 15:14:13 ciphermonk has joined
 872 2013-03-01 15:16:32 <TD> morning gavinandresen
 873 2013-03-01 15:16:38 <gavinandresen> morning TD
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 875 2013-03-01 15:20:00 <HM> wow wikibooks is pretty good on openssl
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 904 2013-03-01 16:34:33 <HM> Crypto++'s API is nice
 905 2013-03-01 16:34:59 <gavinandresen> I wonder why my OSX system keychain has expired certificates from the Japanese Government and the Austrian Society for Data Protection….
 906 2013-03-01 16:35:52 <asuej> Hola
 907 2013-03-01 16:36:29 <HM> gavinandresen: Apple are lazy and slow?
 908 2013-03-01 16:37:11 <gavinandresen> Well, I haven't tested yet on Linux or Windows....
 909 2013-03-01 16:37:56 <sipa> gavinandresen: perhaps so it can validate old signatures?
 910 2013-03-01 16:39:58 <HM> I guess because it was revoked for non-critical reasons that'd make sense
 911 2013-03-01 16:40:10 <gavinandresen> they're not revoked, just expired.
 912 2013-03-01 16:40:12 da2ce7_d has joined
 913 2013-03-01 16:41:14 <gavinandresen> http://pastebin.com/jbQzfAbd  if you're curious…..
 914 2013-03-01 16:41:51 <HM> are there newer ones for those organisations?
 915 2013-03-01 16:42:09 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 916 2013-03-01 16:42:18 <gavinandresen> dunno, I'm busy on higher priority stuff
 917 2013-03-01 16:42:39 <gavinandresen> Actually, speaking of higher priority stuff:  Any php programmers up for a project?
 918 2013-03-01 16:44:14 <gavinandresen> … I want somebody to port the paymentrequest c++ server-side command-line code to PHP.  If nobody volunteers, I'll do it myself
 919 2013-03-01 16:44:52 <jgarzik> php, bleh :)
 920 2013-03-01 16:44:59 <gavinandresen> python and ruby versions would be spiffy, too....
 921 2013-03-01 16:45:15 asuej has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 922 2013-03-01 16:45:29 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
 923 2013-03-01 16:45:43 <gavinandresen> and java.  Not Fortran, though.  Fortran is evil.
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 926 2013-03-01 16:54:18 <TD> gavinandresen: maybe bind it as a module?
 927 2013-03-01 16:54:23 <fatAgnes_> ;ticker
 928 2013-03-01 16:54:31 <fatAgnes_> !ticker
 929 2013-03-01 16:54:32 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 34.48970, Best ask: 34.69109, Bid-ask spread: 0.20139, Last trade: 34.65000, 24 hour volume: 66696.88954521, 24 hour low: 30.90200, 24 hour high: 34.83990, 24 hour vwap: 33.31203
 930 2013-03-01 16:54:33 <TD> PHP a seriously bizarre language. if you don't know it well you can easily shoot yourself ijn the foot
 931 2013-03-01 16:54:42 <gavinandresen> TD: bind what as a module?
 932 2013-03-01 16:54:52 <TD> the C++ code into C and from C into PHP
 933 2013-03-01 16:55:00 <TD> if you want a pure PHP reimplementation, at least read this first: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
 934 2013-03-01 16:55:06 <TD> so you can avoid the worst pitfalls
 935 2013-03-01 16:55:15 <gavinandresen> TD: I spent a few years doing PHP programming...
 936 2013-03-01 16:55:19 <TD> ah, cool
 937 2013-03-01 16:55:31 <TD> well then you already know what to expect ...
 938 2013-03-01 16:55:40 <gavinandresen> yup
 939 2013-03-01 16:55:51 Arnavion has joined
 940 2013-03-01 16:56:16 <gavinandresen> I was surprised the version of PHP that comes with my Mac already has the bcmath and openssl modules compiled in
 941 2013-03-01 16:56:41 <gavinandresen> … so porting the paymentrequest-create/verify code should actually be fairly easy
 942 2013-03-01 16:56:52 <TD> how consistent is the set of compiled in modules?
 943 2013-03-01 16:56:58 <gavinandresen> very inconsistent
 944 2013-03-01 16:57:08 <TD> is it maybe easier to shell out to the command line tools?
 945 2013-03-01 16:57:24 <TD> presumably no-one is hosting sites on non-VPSes these days
 946 2013-03-01 16:57:32 <TD> everyone should be able to install a command line utility somewhere, i'd imagine
 947 2013-03-01 16:57:49 <gavinandresen> darn good question.  But if you have permission to shell out, you can probably install a version of PHP that has openssl/bcmath compiled in
 948 2013-03-01 16:58:16 <TD> yeah. i'm just thinking it might be easier/less work/less duplication to shell out
 949 2013-03-01 16:58:23 <TD> if there are more features in future, etc
 950 2013-03-01 16:58:28 <gavinandresen> The code COULD do either (if modules available, use them, otherwise shell out)
 951 2013-03-01 17:00:18 <TD> what's the advantage of keeping it native? is fork/exec too slow for some sites?
 952 2013-03-01 17:00:32 <gavinandresen> native version feels like the right way to do it; sophisticated sites are going to want to do things like save the payment reqeusts in a database
 953 2013-03-01 17:00:57 <TD> i suppose so
 954 2013-03-01 17:01:51 <gavinandresen> The php code should actually be a lot easier to read than the C++ / openssl code, too
 955 2013-03-01 17:02:03 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
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 958 2013-03-01 17:02:31 <TD> oh look. what a random photo of you gavin
 959 2013-03-01 17:02:32 <TD> http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/the-grid/bitcoin-virtual-currency-legitimacy-online-retailers
 960 2013-03-01 17:02:41 <TD> i guess they couldn't find the setting cash on fire one
 961 2013-03-01 17:02:47 AtashiCon has joined
 962 2013-03-01 17:02:52 <gavinandresen> … or couldn't get permission
 963 2013-03-01 17:02:56 abrkn has joined
 964 2013-03-01 17:03:30 <HM> The opening sentence bothers me
 965 2013-03-01 17:03:49 <HM> A higher valuation doesn't say anything about "legitimacy"
 966 2013-03-01 17:04:21 <gavinandresen> "but it goes up to ELEVEN!"
 967 2013-03-01 17:04:40 <TD> in the eyes of the man on the street i suppose it can
 968 2013-03-01 17:04:48 <TD> but really it's the fact that it went up, then down, then up again
 969 2013-03-01 17:05:06 <TD> as the forbes guy said, the fact that people still believed in it when it had crashed and bought in heavily at $2 is worthy of note
 970 2013-03-01 17:05:19 <egecko> but you can't really compare valuation of BTC to say valuation of a stock
 971 2013-03-01 17:05:44 <HM> people believing in something doesn't make it legitimate either
 972 2013-03-01 17:06:11 <egecko> what is your definition of "legitimate"?  the fact that people are choosing to use btc makes it as legitimate as cash
 973 2013-03-01 17:06:21 <HM> and bitcoinstore.com appears to be down, whatever that was
 974 2013-03-01 17:06:25 toffoo has joined
 975 2013-03-01 17:06:52 <jgarzik> TD: agreed
 976 2013-03-01 17:07:10 <TD> HM: it's a store. quite a neat one. the concept is good, it's been around for a while. maybe it's under heavy load from the sudden attention
 977 2013-03-01 17:07:12 <jgarzik> TD: though I wish journalists could understand _why_ people still believed in it (unbroken cryptosystem)
 978 2013-03-01 17:07:32 <TD> the idea that there was a crash from $33 to $1 is surprisingly widespread
 979 2013-03-01 17:07:35 <jgarzik> journalists just observe other people's reactions and report on that, without spending too much time looking at what is going on
 980 2013-03-01 17:07:38 <TD> when mtgox got hacked
 981 2013-03-01 17:07:48 <TD> i have to constantly remind people that nobody was ever willing to sell at $1 at that time
 982 2013-03-01 17:07:54 <TD> yeah, well, that's news for you
 983 2013-03-01 17:07:56 <jgarzik> indeed
 984 2013-03-01 17:08:11 <jgarzik> actually I hear "$33 to $0.01" all the time
 985 2013-03-01 17:08:28 <HM> Didn't a bunch of offers go out at $0.01 on Gox not so long ago?
 986 2013-03-01 17:09:03 nus- has joined
 987 2013-03-01 17:09:06 <HM> I watched a video by some goodguyjoe who said he could have bought but didn't because he's a good guy
 988 2013-03-01 17:13:17 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 989 2013-03-01 17:14:32 xjrn has joined
 990 2013-03-01 17:14:36 <gavinandresen> …. and there are videos of people walking on the moon, too, and we all know THAT never happened…..
 991 2013-03-01 17:14:56 <gavinandresen> (quick, somebody kick-ban me for trolling please)
 992 2013-03-01 17:15:11 CaptainBlaze has joined
 993 2013-03-01 17:15:12 <Diablo-D3> BUT I DONT HAVE OPS
 994 2013-03-01 17:15:17 <Diablo-D3> AAAAARGH
 995 2013-03-01 17:15:55 <HM> gavinandresen: :( i'm pretty sure that happened
 996 2013-03-01 17:16:56 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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 999 2013-03-01 17:19:05 <rdponticelli> gavinandresen: Just play some roulette with gribble, he'll do the trick :D
1000 2013-03-01 17:22:40 _dr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1001 2013-03-01 17:22:55 <HM> gribble's a bot?
1002 2013-03-01 17:23:02 <fatAgnes_> !ticker
1003 2013-03-01 17:23:03 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 34.80001, Best ask: 34.83987, Bid-ask spread: 0.03986, Last trade: 34.80001, 24 hour volume: 67665.95725189, 24 hour low: 30.90200, 24 hour high: 34.83990, 24 hour vwap: 33.34162
1004 2013-03-01 17:23:26 <HM> And there was me thinking he just typed really fast
1005 2013-03-01 17:23:40 newy6 has joined
1006 2013-03-01 17:23:42 <fatAgnes_> bitcoin could be a scam
1007 2013-03-01 17:23:50 <fatAgnes_> but i like it
1008 2013-03-01 17:24:06 <TD> gavinandresen: so are you coming to any conclusion around the name ?
1009 2013-03-01 17:24:15 <BlueMatt> TD: I like the new bitcoinj logo
1010 2013-03-01 17:24:22 <fatAgnes_> new?
1011 2013-03-01 17:24:23 <fatAgnes_> where?
1012 2013-03-01 17:24:25 <fatAgnes_> show me
1013 2013-03-01 17:24:28 <TD> thanks! :) me too.
1014 2013-03-01 17:24:29 <TD> f
1015 2013-03-01 17:24:37 <TD> fatAgnes_: bitcoinJ logo, just for a library
1016 2013-03-01 17:24:59 <gavinandresen> TD: I hate deciding the names of things, that's why we pay the Marketing department big bucks
1017 2013-03-01 17:25:14 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yes, where is o great version/name king sipa?
1018 2013-03-01 17:25:25 <BlueMatt> isnt that our marketing department?
1019 2013-03-01 17:26:16 <fatAgnes_> chip of the old coin
1020 2013-03-01 17:26:43 <gavinandresen> I do like the term "peer", so somethingPeer or PeerSomething …  not crazy about Bitcoin/Bit/Coin in the name, though, way too many BitFoos and CoinBars already
1021 2013-03-01 17:27:46 <TD> huh, it'd be weird if satoshis original app didn't have the name Bitcoin in it anymore
1022 2013-03-01 17:28:16 <TD> i suppose "UltraPeerCore MX" or something would be what marketing would pick
1023 2013-03-01 17:28:20 <HM> anything that can be abbreviated to 'bj' is either poorly thought out or genius
1024 2013-03-01 17:28:27 <gavinandresen> Oooh… UltraPeer
1025 2013-03-01 17:28:32 <gavinandresen> UltraPeerPlus !
1026 2013-03-01 17:28:42 <gavinandresen> Peer-o-rama
1027 2013-03-01 17:28:51 <gavinandresen> PeerMe
1028 2013-03-01 17:28:58 * BlueMatt 's log-reading failed to come up with what we are naming :(
1029 2013-03-01 17:29:06 <gavinandresen> Bitcoin-Qt
1030 2013-03-01 17:29:15 <HM> What's wrong with the current name?
1031 2013-03-01 17:29:18 <gavinandresen> PeerMoney
1032 2013-03-01 17:29:25 <TD> it sucks
1033 2013-03-01 17:29:30 <TD> anything *-Qt sucks
1034 2013-03-01 17:29:30 <gavinandresen> it sucks
1035 2013-03-01 17:29:44 <TD> why not call it Bitcoin-Qt-OpenSSL-SHA256?
1036 2013-03-01 17:30:04 <HM> Qt is usually pronounced Cutie
1037 2013-03-01 17:30:11 <TD> heck why not just name it after the git commit hash of its release
1038 2013-03-01 17:30:23 <TD> "Download 32dd806 today!"
1039 2013-03-01 17:30:37 <gavinandresen> 32 double-d ....
1040 2013-03-01 17:30:42 <BlueMatt> people are used to Bitcoin-Qt, yes, *-Qt sucks, but its a well-known name...
1041 2013-03-01 17:30:49 * gavinandresen resists making more boob jokes
1042 2013-03-01 17:30:53 tonikt has joined
1043 2013-03-01 17:31:00 <TD> spent too much time on classycams, huh
1044 2013-03-01 17:31:03 <gavinandresen> lol
1045 2013-03-01 17:31:19 <TD> BlueMatt: 99%+ of bitcoins eventual users have never heard the name yet
1046 2013-03-01 17:31:30 <BlueMatt> well, ok that is true...
1047 2013-03-01 17:31:31 <rdponticelli> TD: r2d2 worked out pretty well...
1048 2013-03-01 17:31:35 <gavinandresen> yes, if we do our jobs right we get exponential growth
1049 2013-03-01 17:31:49 <gavinandresen> … and only old fogies remember the good old day of wxBitcoin
1050 2013-03-01 17:32:27 <HM> no love for Gtk? :(
1051 2013-03-01 17:32:39 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: hey, I miss wxBitcoin
1052 2013-03-01 17:32:48 <gavinandresen> PeerEleven <-- my new favorite
1053 2013-03-01 17:32:48 <BlueMatt> but back then it was just "the client"
1054 2013-03-01 17:33:35 snickle has joined
1055 2013-03-01 17:33:39 <TD> i still shamelessly vote for my own suggestion of "Bitcoin Core", even though it reminds gavin of some crappy movie
1056 2013-03-01 17:33:52 <TD> bah you youngsters
1057 2013-03-01 17:33:54 <HM> CoinKit!
1058 2013-03-01 17:34:02 * TD remembers when it only ran on win32 and he had to use Wine to get coins
1059 2013-03-01 17:34:04 <HM> everything must be a Kit
1060 2013-03-01 17:34:23 <BlueMatt> SuperNode
1061 2013-03-01 17:34:24 <snickle> theoretically speaking, if a hash of a block ended up being 0x1, bitcoin would break, right?
1062 2013-03-01 17:34:35 <BlueMatt> snickle: uhhh...no?
1063 2013-03-01 17:34:42 dhill has joined
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1065 2013-03-01 17:35:11 <HM> I think you should keep the name and focus on what's really important....release names
1066 2013-03-01 17:35:20 <snickle> well the next block's hash has to be less than the previous block's hash by definition
1067 2013-03-01 17:35:28 <BlueMatt> snickle: no, thats not true
1068 2013-03-01 17:35:33 <gavinandresen> snickle: I'm guessing you think the longest chain is determined by the block hashes, and not the target block hashes....
1069 2013-03-01 17:35:45 <snickle> oh, my mistake
1070 2013-03-01 17:35:55 <snickle> still wrapping my head around the concept
1071 2013-03-01 17:35:58 <BlueMatt> snickle: it has to be smaller than the target, which is distinct from the hash of the previous block
1072 2013-03-01 17:36:09 <snickle> how is the target calculated?
1073 2013-03-01 17:36:25 <snickle> i thought target was just < previous block's hash
1074 2013-03-01 17:36:43 <TD> no
1075 2013-03-01 17:37:00 <BlueMatt> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Target
1076 2013-03-01 17:37:12 <BlueMatt> actually, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty
1077 2013-03-01 17:38:25 axhlf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1078 2013-03-01 17:38:50 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1079 2013-03-01 17:40:33 <snickle> how was the first block's target determined?
1080 2013-03-01 17:41:02 <BlueMatt> it was min_target
1081 2013-03-01 17:41:43 tgs3_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1082 2013-03-01 17:43:02 <gmaxwell> petertodd pointed out that it would have met a surprisingly larger difficulty.
1083 2013-03-01 17:43:09 reizuki__ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1084 2013-03-01 17:45:10 <snickle> oh ok
1085 2013-03-01 17:45:32 <snickle> i'm getting confused between minimum difficulty being a larger number o_O
1086 2013-03-01 17:45:36 <snickle> my bad
1087 2013-03-01 17:45:38 <snickle> thanks
1088 2013-03-01 17:46:31 <HM> difficulty is how far you have to go
1089 2013-03-01 17:46:34 <HM> so longer = harder
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1092 2013-03-01 17:51:08 <gavinandresen> TD: is there an openssl call I don't know about that, given a leaf certificate, will fetch all of it's parents up to the root?
1093 2013-03-01 17:51:45 <TD> why do you want that?
1094 2013-03-01 17:51:56 <gavinandresen> I want createpaymentrequest to do that
1095 2013-03-01 17:51:58 <TD> and fetch from where?
1096 2013-03-01 17:52:23 <gavinandresen> from the URL in X509v3 extensions "Authority Information Access"
1097 2013-03-01 17:52:38 <gavinandresen> I think
1098 2013-03-01 17:52:42 <TD> AFAIK no, when you get the SSL certs the provider gives you the intermediate certs that chain from yours up to the roots, and you're expected to provide those to the apps you want to use separately
1099 2013-03-01 17:52:52 <TD> so you already have all the data needed from the user
1100 2013-03-01 17:53:25 <TD> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKI_Resource_Query_Protocol
1101 2013-03-01 17:53:31 <TD> Although encouraged, usage of the AIA and SIA extension is still not widely deployed. There are two main reasons for this. The first is the lack of support for such extensions in available clients. The second reason is that extensions are static, i.e. not modifiable. Indeed to modify or add new extensions, in order to have users and applications to be aware of new services or their dismissal, the certificate must be re-issued.
1102 2013-03-01 17:54:01 <gavinandresen> TD: the certificate I bought a couple of days ago is just the leaf, and chains through two intermediates...
1103 2013-03-01 17:54:23 <TD> where did you buy it from? sometimes the CAs only link to the intermediate certs from their support center, etc
1104 2013-03-01 17:54:40 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: if you put the leaf and all the intermediates in the same .pem, your server should relay them all at once (as it should)
1105 2013-03-01 17:54:42 <TD> for startssl i had to download them from some server they had. CAs aren't very user friendly, unfortunately
1106 2013-03-01 17:54:43 <gavinandresen> bought it from comodo, indirectly through cheapssls.com
1107 2013-03-01 17:55:04 <TD> https://support.comodo.com/index.php?_m=downloads&_a=view&parentcategoryid=1
1108 2013-03-01 17:55:07 <gavinandresen> I just want to make it as easy as possible for people
1109 2013-03-01 17:55:09 <TD> yeah
1110 2013-03-01 17:55:21 <gavinandresen> … so it is "Buy a certificate, run, done."
1111 2013-03-01 17:56:21 <TD> unfortunately i don't know if any PKI is ever quite as easy as that. what is the intermediate cert it chains to?
1112 2013-03-01 17:56:52 <gavinandresen> CA Issuers - URI:http://crt.comodoca.com/PositiveSSLCA2.crt
1113 2013-03-01 17:57:19 <gavinandresen> … and then CA Issuers - URI:http://crt.usertrust.com/AddTrustUTNSGCCA.crt or URI:http://crt.usertrust.com/AddTrustExternalCARoot.p7c
1114 2013-03-01 17:57:26 kakobrekla has left ()
1115 2013-03-01 17:57:27 <gavinandresen> … and then the root cert
1116 2013-03-01 17:57:40 <TD> https://support.comodo.com/index.php?_m=downloads&_a=viewdownload&downloaditemid=119&nav=0,1
1117 2013-03-01 17:57:49 triciam has left ()
1118 2013-03-01 17:58:23 <gavinandresen> TD: yeah yeah, but fetching from the URLs in the certificate does work, so I'll bite the bullet and teach the payment request create code to do that
1119 2013-03-01 17:58:53 <TD> ok, that's cool
1120 2013-03-01 17:58:54 <gavinandresen> (if the intermediate certificates aren't given explicitly)
1121 2013-03-01 17:59:05 <TD> i wonder how many certs have that data
1122 2013-03-01 17:59:33 snickle has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1123 2013-03-01 17:59:51 <gavinandresen> if you're looking for a research project, you could fetch a few and see….
1124 2013-03-01 18:00:25 <gavinandresen> openssl x509 -text < foo.crt | grep 'Issuers' ....
1125 2013-03-01 18:01:12 <TD> startssl does too
1126 2013-03-01 18:01:24 <TD> well you can see it in chrome
1127 2013-03-01 18:01:43 <gavinandresen> even easier!
1128 2013-03-01 18:01:49 <TD> even the google.com cert has this data
1129 2013-03-01 18:01:52 <fatAgnes_> !ticker
1130 2013-03-01 18:01:53 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 34.75511, Best ask: 34.86900, Bid-ask spread: 0.11389, Last trade: 34.87000, 24 hour volume: 66124.93968351, 24 hour low: 30.90200, 24 hour high: 34.90000, 24 hour vwap: 33.38397
1131 2013-03-01 18:01:57 <TD> so seems like it's a good feature to have indeed
1132 2013-03-01 18:02:07 <TD> is there an easy to use c++ url fetching library?
1133 2013-03-01 18:02:10 <TD> that isn't curl, i mean? :)
1134 2013-03-01 18:02:34 <gavinandresen> I was going to punt and just system(curl)
1135 2013-03-01 18:02:45 <gavinandresen> (maybe I'll get fancy and popen(curl) )
1136 2013-03-01 18:02:51 <TD> won't work on windows
1137 2013-03-01 18:02:56 <TD> maybe it doesn't matter
1138 2013-03-01 18:03:25 <TD> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1011339/how-do-you-make-a-http-request-with-c
1139 2013-03-01 18:03:31 <TD> curlpp looks like a not terrible wrapper
1140 2013-03-01 18:03:57 swappermall has joined
1141 2013-03-01 18:04:10 <TD> they even have win32 binaries pre-provided
1142 2013-03-01 18:04:11 <TD> https://code.google.com/p/curlpp/downloads/list
1143 2013-03-01 18:04:22 <gavinandresen> MIT license, cool….
1144 2013-03-01 18:05:00 <TD> or maybe http://pocoproject.org/index.html
1145 2013-03-01 18:05:09 <gavinandresen> sigh.  payment protocol TODO is getting longer faster than it is getting shorter right now
1146 2013-03-01 18:05:14 <TD> boost licensed
1147 2013-03-01 18:05:20 <HM> Poco is nice
1148 2013-03-01 18:05:21 <TD> such is the nature of software
1149 2013-03-01 18:06:31 Silverion has joined
1150 2013-03-01 18:07:10 <xjrn> what are pool miners sending back through the wire as shares?  low difficulty proofs ?
1151 2013-03-01 18:08:06 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1152 2013-03-01 18:09:44 <helo> yes
1153 2013-03-01 18:09:59 emryss has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1154 2013-03-01 18:12:27 freakazoid_ has joined
1155 2013-03-01 18:13:49 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1156 2013-03-01 18:25:56 <i2pRelay> <mivdf@i2p> testing testing  are my messages comin through?
1157 2013-03-01 18:27:04 <helo> yes
1158 2013-03-01 18:28:07 <i2pRelay> <KillYourTV@i2p> I think the bot is muted in #bitcoin. Here it's obviously not.
1159 2013-03-01 18:28:18 <i2pRelay> * KillYourTV@i2p goes back lurking
1160 2013-03-01 18:33:08 freewil has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1161 2013-03-01 18:34:11 i2pRelay has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1162 2013-03-01 18:37:36 freewil has joined
1163 2013-03-01 18:38:31 ovidiusoft has joined
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1165 2013-03-01 18:39:47 free__ has joined
1166 2013-03-01 18:42:45 <jurov> maybe i'll get banned, but i'll leave this here: http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/bitcoind-not-quite-ready-for-prime-time/
1167 2013-03-01 18:42:47 <TD> 0.8 is at nearly a quarter of the network already
1168 2013-03-01 18:42:49 <TD> vry nice
1169 2013-03-01 18:42:57 <jurov> in spririt of our yest discussion
1170 2013-03-01 18:43:55 <TD> lol
1171 2013-03-01 18:44:06 <TD> that's the guy who thinks using a single address for everything is good for privacy?
1172 2013-03-01 18:44:24 <jurov> yes, let's smear him instead of talking about actual problem
1173 2013-03-01 18:45:03 <jurov> this time he is using the addresses properly. and bitcoind jsut isn't up to the task.
1174 2013-03-01 18:45:04 <gmaxwell> jurov: saying someone is confused ... when they are confused.. is not a smear.
1175 2013-03-01 18:45:09 <TD> his problem, if you want to call it that, is he's using APIs designed for developers who know what they're doing - and he does, sorta, because he knows it won't let him create a 1mb transaction
1176 2013-03-01 18:45:14 <TD> and he knows why
1177 2013-03-01 18:45:24 <TD> but he still feels like he should be able to create a 1mb tx even though it will never confirm
1178 2013-03-01 18:45:58 <jurov> if you read till the end, the transactions end up being only 6kb total
1179 2013-03-01 18:46:00 <TD> anyway, yes, at the core of his post is a point - eventually bitcoin APIs will need to start working with sets of transactions instead of single transactions
1180 2013-03-01 18:46:20 freewil has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1181 2013-03-01 18:46:38 <TD> i suspect there would have been an explanation in the log
1182 2013-03-01 18:46:52 <TD> propagating the messages from the logging to the rpc error would certainly be a good improvement
1183 2013-03-01 18:47:18 <TD> as would better coin selection, the ability to batch transactions to avoid making huge ones, etc
1184 2013-03-01 18:47:26 <TD> but that guy doesn't write patches, he just bitches. so ….
1185 2013-03-01 18:47:53 <gmaxwell> jurov: what he's describing there doesn't follow.
1186 2013-03-01 18:48:12 <petertodd> re: createrawtransaction and sendrawtransaction, is there any technical reason why the error messages couldn't be made different for each type of error? I've found that annoying myself.
1187 2013-03-01 18:48:17 <gmaxwell> jurov: he solved his problem by splitting up the transaction. Then he claims that the single transaction would be 6k. This is not the case.
1188 2013-03-01 18:48:45 <TD> petertodd: nope. just that satoshi wrote the code to write all errors to stderr
1189 2013-03-01 18:48:47 tonikt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1190 2013-03-01 18:49:02 <TD> petertodd: so i guess someone would need to go through and change it all so errors are accumulated in some request-scoped buffer and then returned
1191 2013-03-01 18:49:02 <gmaxwell> jurov: are you the author of that page?
1192 2013-03-01 18:49:23 <gmaxwell> oh, it's MP.
1193 2013-03-01 18:50:03 <TD> i don't know all the reasons tx creation can fail like that.
1194 2013-03-01 18:50:06 <petertodd> TD: Well, for say, sendrawtransaction, there should only be one error right? (IE, it'll quit on the first problem)
1195 2013-03-01 18:50:07 <TD> but i presume size is the primary one
1196 2013-03-01 18:50:20 freewil has joined
1197 2013-03-01 18:50:26 <TD> he was using sendmany
1198 2013-03-01 18:50:28 <gmaxwell> TD: yes, that would be the resulting txn was >100kb.
1199 2013-03-01 18:51:02 <sipa> petertodd: o'
1200 2013-03-01 18:51:15 <petertodd> sipa: ?
1201 2013-03-01 18:52:37 <sipa> petertodd: i'm not sure about your nTimeLock'ed transactions - on one hand it sounds nice way to prevent wrong mining incentives, but it may cause transactions to be unacceptable to the mempool if there is a weird at-retarget-boundary reorg that decreases height but increases bnChaiNWork
1202 2013-03-01 18:52:45 <TD> right, it does seem like that's the only way it can fail if SelectCoins succeeds
1203 2013-03-01 18:53:08 <gmaxwell> TD: I've see behavior like that when someone has a wallet with _lots_ of dust inputs in it, and they make a txn large enough that it dips too far into the dust. Litecoin carries a patch to make coin selection ignore very tiny inputs, which has its own problem.
1204 2013-03-01 18:53:44 <petertodd> sipa: Oh, that's possible? Hmm... I could do a "GetNetworkChainHeight" function for the odd-cases like that; I nearly was going to do a simple nBestHeight thing that delayed a bit to account for propagation.
1205 2013-03-01 18:53:57 <TD> i guess the question is, is MP right that a better algorithm would have allowed the tx to fit under the limit?
1206 2013-03-01 18:54:13 <TD> he doesn't offer any ideas for such an algorithm, but maybe a real constraint solver could do it
1207 2013-03-01 18:54:20 <petertodd> sipa: I didn't bother when it looked like propagation delays weren't a problem.
1208 2013-03-01 18:54:47 <petertodd> sipa: It has to be a change with no bad effects after all.
1209 2013-03-01 18:55:11 <gmaxwell> TD: I've never see a case where our solver was pessimal like that, actually— ignoring priority— it seems to do a pretty good job.
1210 2013-03-01 18:58:54 <gmaxwell> if we'd like some amusement, I could go ask him for an (encrypted) copy of his wallet to try to reproduce. Amusement because apparently when I made that taint-rich thread he was going around telling people that I was trying to rob people.
1211 2013-03-01 18:59:53 Apexseals has quit ()
1212 2013-03-01 19:00:17 andytoshi has joined
1213 2013-03-01 19:01:41 free__ has left ("Leaving")
1214 2013-03-01 19:01:50 WeLoveCP has quit (Disconnected by services)
1215 2013-03-01 19:02:17 eipeace_ has joined
1216 2013-03-01 19:07:34 <TD> jurov: that article did have one benefit, it reminded me to implement the max tx size check in bitcoinj
1217 2013-03-01 19:08:58 <gmaxwell> well, it's making me add some dust tests to the wallet tests too. I hadn't looked at the selection quality since the last changes.
1218 2013-03-01 19:09:04 root2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1219 2013-03-01 19:09:57 <gmaxwell> derp tests are currently broken in git master.
1220 2013-03-01 19:10:07 swappermall is now known as swappermall_out_
1221 2013-03-01 19:10:28 root2 has joined
1222 2013-03-01 19:10:54 <sipa> :o
1223 2013-03-01 19:11:47 toffoo has quit ()
1224 2013-03-01 19:12:39 <jgarzik> lots of variables to balance... this is evolving into a Transaction Optimizer
1225 2013-03-01 19:13:21 <jgarzik> an optimal (to the network) sendmany situation might spread its work across multiple transactions
1226 2013-03-01 19:13:57 gritcoin has joined
1227 2013-03-01 19:18:11 <gmaxwell> ::sigh:: douglas broken the solver in some corner cases.
1228 2013-03-01 19:18:25 <gmaxwell> the sorted first pass makes its greedy.
1229 2013-03-01 19:18:36 <gmaxwell> and when the wallet has lots of dust inputs it prefers to use them.
1230 2013-03-01 19:18:51 theymos has joined
1231 2013-03-01 19:19:10 <sipa> it probably makes sense to not consider inputs that at an order of magnitude smaller than the wanted output, at first
1232 2013-03-01 19:20:33 <gmaxwell> so, e.g. adding 1000 irrelevant 1-100 satoshi inputs to the wallet tests, which test with magnitude around 0.01-1, results in a bunch of decisions with hundreds of coins.
1233 2013-03-01 19:21:53 ShaTwo has joined
1234 2013-03-01 19:24:15 root2 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1235 2013-03-01 19:24:19 <theymos> Are there any active projects to create what Ripple should have been? I really liked the original idea. It would've been a great solution for the problem of trading between fiat and BTC.
1236 2013-03-01 19:25:23 BTCOxygen has joined
1237 2013-03-01 19:25:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: oh well, working on wallet coin selection was on my todo. I really think we should just bite the bullet and use a proper LP solver here.
1238 2013-03-01 19:26:34 <sipa> first fix priority rules
1239 2013-03-01 19:26:44 <sipa> then write a decent solver that takes them into account
1240 2013-03-01 19:26:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: maybe a shorterm fix would be to change the initial sort to put coins more than X-orders of magnitude smaller than the input to the end of the sort.
1241 2013-03-01 19:27:36 <sipa> yes
1242 2013-03-01 19:28:47 <gmaxwell> sipa: so I  was happy at least that I figured out how to make our current priority work in a standard ILP solver.  Anything structured like  sum(constant_metric_input) / (sum(size_input)+constants) can work.
1243 2013-03-01 19:28:51 <HM> hmm
1244 2013-03-01 19:28:53 <midnightmagic> If it's within scope and you are considering changing the coin selection mechanism, a way to hook into that for us fools who want to would be much appreciated. :-D
1245 2013-03-01 19:29:19 <TD> theymos: no. ryan never really made it work in a p2p manner anyway
1246 2013-03-01 19:29:27 <HM> can anyone explain why Crypto+++ has Multiply(x,p) and ScalarMultiply(p, x) which seem to do the same thing?
1247 2013-03-01 19:29:33 <TD> theymos: if i was going to do it, i'd use the design i laid out on the ripple exchange wiki page
1248 2013-03-01 19:30:17 <sipa> HM: you have a link to their source?
1249 2013-03-01 19:30:30 <TD> midnightmagic: bitcoinj has pluggable coin selectors since the last release, though the default one is kinda dumb. if there was a coin selector that worked properly in all cases i'm not sure replacing it would be a good idea
1250 2013-03-01 19:30:34 <HM> sipa: http://www.cryptopp.com/docs/ref/class_e_c_p.html
1251 2013-03-01 19:30:45 <HM> i could review the source i guess
1252 2013-03-01 19:30:49 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: what I was thinking, and what people may egg me over is executing an external solver. But this design is half motivated what you want, and half motivated by wanting to use GLPK which is GPL.
1253 2013-03-01 19:30:52 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1254 2013-03-01 19:31:03 <HM> Multiply(const Integer &k, const Point &P) const
1255 2013-03-01 19:31:05 <HM> 00059                 {return ScalarMultiply(P, k);}
1256 2013-03-01 19:31:12 <HM> weird
1257 2013-03-01 19:31:48 Apexseals has joined
1258 2013-03-01 19:32:17 <HM> here was me thinking there was a subtle difference
1259 2013-03-01 19:33:31 SchmalzTech_away has joined
1260 2013-03-01 19:33:54 <midnightmagic> TD: Primarily, as I'm sure you guessed, I'm interested in limiting the set from which the solver pulls a solution. However, it is also possible that I would like to modify the solver to change priorities under limited circumstances (including its behaviour re: wallet dust). Thanks for putting an external coin selector in bitcoinj, I hadn't realised it was so actively maintained.
1261 2013-03-01 19:34:27 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: +1 for external solver, even if it's a user-supplied dlopen()-used lib.
1262 2013-03-01 19:40:15 discrete has joined
1263 2013-03-01 19:40:53 <TD> midnightmagic: well you can do that. but bitcoinj barely has a solver. it just sorts unspent outputs by age and then adds them up, oldest to newest
1264 2013-03-01 19:40:57 <TD> there's no attempt to be smart about it
1265 2013-03-01 19:41:18 <gmaxwell> TD: so if I give you a bunch of 1e-8 old inputs, you're toast?
1266 2013-03-01 19:41:39 <TD> if you give them to me, they're not old are they?
1267 2013-03-01 19:41:55 <TD> but yes, any coins i receive after that point will be unspendable
1268 2013-03-01 19:41:59 <gmaxwell> Eventually they are. Right.
1269 2013-03-01 19:42:02 <midnightmagic> TD: Okay. I have a bash script doing that for me to build rawtx right now.
1270 2013-03-01 19:42:06 <gmaxwell> (or you import a key)
1271 2013-03-01 19:42:22 <TD> right
1272 2013-03-01 19:42:46 <midnightmagic> so I guess..  technically I've already replaced the solver haven't I.
1273 2013-03-01 19:42:54 <theymos> TD: (Re: Ripple) Interesting article, thanks. I wonder if it's possible to do it without a block chain or central authority, though. Maybe you could download trust info from people you trust and publish that info and your own trust relationships to people who trust you.
1274 2013-03-01 19:42:56 <TD> gmaxwell: though it seems that the 0.8 code also chokes on lots of spam
1275 2013-03-01 19:42:58 <TD> midnightmagic: yeah
1276 2013-03-01 19:43:25 <gmaxwell> theymos: talk to amiller
1277 2013-03-01 19:43:45 <TD> theymos: i wanted it to be usable by nodes that go offline
1278 2013-03-01 19:44:00 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1279 2013-03-01 19:44:05 <TD> theymos: you still need to sync a database amongst users, so, a block chain seems a reasonable way to do it. but sure.
1280 2013-03-01 19:44:10 <TD> maybe there's an alternative for that specific case
1281 2013-03-01 19:44:38 <midnightmagic> theymos: There's design work on WoTv2 incorporating many of those ideas in a *trust relationship* graph-builder, fwiw.
1282 2013-03-01 19:44:39 <gmaxwell> TD: yes, I was just pointing that out. Douglas changed the subset sum solver to start with a value sorted input, and the initial pass is greedy enough that it doesn't run enough iterations to escape that local minima.
1283 2013-03-01 19:45:27 <TD> :(
1284 2013-03-01 19:45:59 <gmaxwell> Question is: spent more time twiddling or redo it?
1285 2013-03-01 19:46:30 <gmaxwell> probably excluding very small inputs from the first pass and/or making a final pass to remove dust will mostly hide that issue.
1286 2013-03-01 19:47:00 <gmaxwell> (trying both now... just because they'd be small changes)
1287 2013-03-01 19:48:07 <sipa> i wonder about this approach: do several iterations, each associated with a probability function (value -> chance); the first iterations use a high probably very close to the remaining output, and dropping quickly; later iterations are smoother and smoother
1288 2013-03-01 19:49:00 <sipa> in each iteration, apply chance to all coins (ordered from high to low), and if true, use coin and reduce remaining amount by its value
1289 2013-03-01 19:50:06 <gmaxwell> There is basically no limit to the amount of time that can be spent on this.
1290 2013-03-01 19:53:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Speaking of, an RPC call that's basically "figure out what coins I should spend for a tx of output n" call would be great. It could be as simple as sendtoaddress/sendmany but with returning a unsigned tx, rather than submitting it to the network.
1291 2013-03-01 19:53:47 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I wound up implementing a dead simple sorted unspent coin input selector myself that I could have avoided.
1292 2013-03-01 19:53:59 <sipa> yes, a "automatically add inputs to this incomplete tx so that input>=output" would be ncie
1293 2013-03-01 19:54:12 <amiller> theymos, could you repost the ripple article link?
1294 2013-03-01 19:54:14 * amiller scrolled but couldn't find it
1295 2013-03-01 19:54:29 <sipa> as right now you can either do everything in the wallet, or everything manually
1296 2013-03-01 19:54:40 <amiller> theymos, i'm supremely interested in developing a credit network (ripple is now a dirty word imo) financial model to run on top of bitcoin
1297 2013-03-01 19:54:44 <theymos> amiller: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Ripple_currency_exchange
1298 2013-03-01 19:54:57 <sipa> but coin selection would be nice to do automatically even when output selection is done raw
1299 2013-03-01 19:55:27 <petertodd> amiller: Please do, even if it's really Bitcoin-specific; they'll be useful for the backend of off-chain transaction systems.
1300 2013-03-01 19:55:34 <theymos> amiller: Yeah, that'd be great.
1301 2013-03-01 19:56:15 <petertodd> amiller: Heck, even if it has to be implemented online only with peers that can be trusted not to DoS attack each other it'd be valuable.
1302 2013-03-01 19:57:02 <HM> yay, replicated a bunch of bitcoin testcases using cryptopp
1303 2013-03-01 19:57:21 <HM> nice library
1304 2013-03-01 19:57:45 <theymos> I've always wondered why Satoshi didn't use crypto++. It's closer to his style and its license is better.
1305 2013-03-01 19:58:42 <sipa> theymos: iirc, crypto++ is a lot slower than openssl for secp256k1
1306 2013-03-01 19:58:53 <sipa> though i haven't benchmarked it myself
1307 2013-03-01 19:59:06 <sipa> and that probably isn't the reason
1308 2013-03-01 19:59:14 <sipa> i guess he just sticked to the first thing that worked
1309 2013-03-01 19:59:40 <HM> portability maybe
1310 2013-03-01 20:00:41 <TD> the original code was windows only
1311 2013-03-01 20:00:47 <TD> portability was not high on satoshis list of concerns
1312 2013-03-01 20:01:01 <theymos> crypto++ was used for mining at one point, so he knew about it, though maybe not until after he finished most stuff.
1313 2013-03-01 20:01:34 <HM> If he really cared about performance he may have selected Curve25519. Dan Bernstein implemented that using floating point magic
1314 2013-03-01 20:01:43 <HM> not all 256bit values are valid though
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1317 2013-03-01 20:01:55 <sipa> HM: Curve25519 is DH only, i think
1318 2013-03-01 20:02:02 <TD> he did really care about performance (and space), however he was just one man and learned cryptography for the purposes of building bitcoin
1319 2013-03-01 20:02:03 <sipa> but Ed25519 is a signing system
1320 2013-03-01 20:02:08 <TD> he wasn't an ECC expert by any means
1321 2013-03-01 20:02:12 <HM> sipa: same curve i think?
1322 2013-03-01 20:02:16 <TD> hence the rather odd choice of curve
1323 2013-03-01 20:02:30 <sipa> HM: i don't think so; same field
1324 2013-03-01 20:02:36 <TD> and the fact that everything is super tight except that there's a lot of DER encoding crap in signatures that isn't needed
1325 2013-03-01 20:02:36 <HM> ah k
1326 2013-03-01 20:03:28 <HM> why is k1 an odd choice?
1327 2013-03-01 20:03:41 <sipa> it's considered less trusted than the NIST curve
1328 2013-03-01 20:03:50 <sipa> (more obscure)
1329 2013-03-01 20:03:55 <theymos> Bitcoin is apparently one of the only users of secp256k1.
1330 2013-03-01 20:04:14 <sipa> if you google for secp256k1, you almost find only bitcoin stuff
1331 2013-03-01 20:04:17 <gmaxwell> It is a standard curve, however. And avoids some of the patent snafu.
1332 2013-03-01 20:04:49 <HM> patent snafu?
1333 2013-03-01 20:05:25 <petertodd> The "non-k" curves had their parameters defined by roots of small primes or something right? While the k curves were optimized?
1334 2013-03-01 20:05:36 <TD> non-k curves were random
1335 2013-03-01 20:05:42 <gmaxwell> There are a lot of patents on performance optimizations for ECC especially for curves on binary fields.
1336 2013-03-01 20:06:05 <HM> right
1337 2013-03-01 20:06:32 <petertodd> TD: But specifically, nothing-up-my-sleeve numbers right?
1338 2013-03-01 20:06:39 <TD> probably.
1339 2013-03-01 20:06:41 <TD> i never looked
1340 2013-03-01 20:06:42 <gmaxwell> sipa: lol. kinda funny: our coin selection happily picks zero value inputs.
1341 2013-03-01 20:06:54 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Sounds like a feature. :P
1342 2013-03-01 20:07:08 <sipa> r = random; k = koblitz
1343 2013-03-01 20:07:24 gritcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1344 2013-03-01 20:07:25 <sipa> though technically, secp256k1 isn't a koblitz curve (those use GF(2) based fields)
1345 2013-03-01 20:07:32 <sipa> just similar
1346 2013-03-01 20:07:57 <gmaxwell> I have to say, that confused me a ton for a while.
1347 2013-03-01 20:08:17 <sipa> Parameters associated with a Koblitz curve admit especially efficient implementation. The name
1348 2013-03-01 20:08:18 <gmaxwell> (thet secp256k1 was koblitz and wasn't on a binary field)
1349 2013-03-01 20:08:20 <sipa> Koblitz curve is best-known when used to describe binary anomalous curves over F2m which have
1350 2013-03-01 20:08:23 <sipa> a, b ∈ {0, 1} [Kob92]. Here it is generalized to refer also to curves over Fp which possess an
1351 2013-03-01 20:08:26 <sipa> efficiently computable endomorphism [GLV01].
1352 2013-03-01 20:08:29 <sipa> (source: SEC2 document)
1353 2013-03-01 20:08:32 D34TH has joined
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1355 2013-03-01 20:08:32 D34TH has joined
1356 2013-03-01 20:08:45 <HM> efficient computation for what part?
1357 2013-03-01 20:08:58 <sipa> HM: EC*number
1358 2013-03-01 20:09:04 <sipa> eh point*number
1359 2013-03-01 20:09:11 agath_pd is now known as agath
1360 2013-03-01 20:09:37 <HM> hmm cool
1361 2013-03-01 20:09:48 <sipa> HM: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2061 implements that optimized multiplication
1362 2013-03-01 20:10:59 <HM> 17.5% speedup, nice
1363 2013-03-01 20:11:03 <HM> saved on VAT
1364 2013-03-01 20:13:57 root2 has joined
1365 2013-03-01 20:15:33 <HM> sipa: the Ed25519 mentions an ECDSA implementation built on top of Curve25519
1366 2013-03-01 20:15:56 <HM> oh wait nm, i'm skimming poorly
1367 2013-03-01 20:17:11 gritcoin has joined
1368 2013-03-01 20:18:05 xjrn has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1369 2013-03-01 20:21:14 <gmaxwell> oh. I was mistaken, it's not so bad. I'd actually added enough dust that it was able to get a more exact match in some cases. Which is dumb but its supposted to be dumb like that.
1370 2013-03-01 20:22:46 <HM> "
1371 2013-03-01 20:22:47 <HM> Our recommended curve for EdDSA is a twisted Edwards
1372 2013-03-01 20:22:49 <HM> curve birationally equivalent to the curve Curve25519
1373 2013-03-01 20:23:19 monkeynipples has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1374 2013-03-01 20:28:30 <amiller> jgarzik, gmaxwell you've both recently mentioned potentially expiring (some kinds of) transaction outputs
1375 2013-03-01 20:28:55 <amiller> but you've never mentioned the 'deposit box rental fee' model for this
1376 2013-03-01 20:29:15 <HM> sipa: the fast batch verifications possible under Ed25519 sound like a nice thing
1377 2013-03-01 20:30:25 <amiller> the rental fee model is just about tying the fee/expiration to exactly the resource burden that it imposes on the network
1378 2013-03-01 20:30:35 <sipa> HM: very much so
1379 2013-03-01 20:30:40 grau_ has joined
1380 2013-03-01 20:30:45 <sipa> HM: though it's "only" a 2.5x speedup
1381 2013-03-01 20:31:03 <sipa> which is nice, but it would also complicate several thing
1382 2013-03-01 20:36:23 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1383 2013-03-01 20:37:46 [\\\] has joined
1384 2013-03-01 20:39:29 <HM> sipa: are there any ways to strengthen bitcoin without changing the curve, if it were to become a problem?
1385 2013-03-01 20:39:40 <HM> I just read Hals forum post on k1 vs r1
1386 2013-03-01 20:43:26 <amiller> k i have politely nuked the trading-across-contracts wiki https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_5:_Trading_across_chains
1387 2013-03-01 20:43:34 rdponticelli has joined
1388 2013-03-01 20:45:59 <gmaxwell> amiller: I am not generally a fan of the value of your txouts being time dependent. It greatly complicates accounting.
1389 2013-03-01 20:47:14 <amiller> fair enough but i'm even less a fan of lifetime memberships etc.
1390 2013-03-01 20:47:24 <amiller> anyway this is just about a variation among the time-dependent proposals
1391 2013-03-01 20:48:30 <amiller> instead of just committing to a timestamp you (or anyone else) could put another coin in the parking meter and the cost could be proportional to the space you take up
1392 2013-03-01 20:48:50 <amiller> the big box at the post office costs more than the small one and no one offers forever-storage-flat-rate
1393 2013-03-01 20:49:41 <gmaxwell> If all outpoints are P2SH then they can all be ~the same size. :P
1394 2013-03-01 20:49:47 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1395 2013-03-01 20:50:32 <gmaxwell> should probably take this to -wizards. :P
1396 2013-03-01 20:50:39 <TD> amiller: what's the reason for htat
1397 2013-03-01 20:50:51 <sipa> and if scripts are merkleized abstract syntax trees, you can have selective revealing even with constant-size txouts
1398 2013-03-01 20:51:36 <TD> amiller: could you put it back please
1399 2013-03-01 20:51:56 <TD> amiller: sorry but protocols that are vulnerable to halting adversaries are not equal to "not possible"
1400 2013-03-01 20:52:49 <petertodd> TD amiller: Use fidelity bonds to discourage halting adversaries.
1401 2013-03-01 20:53:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: thats a very cool idea, though it's lame that the basic blocks are likely always smaller than the hashes... so it would have high overhead.
1402 2013-03-01 20:53:14 <TD> amiller: you can just note the problem that exists and leave it at that
1403 2013-03-01 20:53:24 <amiller> TD, i posted a link to sergio's explanation of the race condition
1404 2013-03-01 20:54:06 <TD> amiller: as i said, it's fine to have protocols on that page that lose money if the counterparty stops. note that they are examples
1405 2013-03-01 20:54:07 <amiller> TD, ok so you would prefer i leave the protocol explanation in tact but i can link/explain the flaw with it
1406 2013-03-01 20:54:10 <TD> yes
1407 2013-03-01 20:54:12 <TD> thanks
1408 2013-03-01 20:55:08 <petertodd> sipa: So, basically you reveal why you're allowed to spend a scriptPubKey with your scriptSig, which also means that scriptPubKeys can contain as much invalid stuff as you want, hidden by the AST?
1409 2013-03-01 20:55:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: roconnor's idea
1410 2013-03-01 20:55:28 <gmaxwell> petertodd: #bitcoin-wizards
1411 2013-03-01 20:55:29 <amiller> petertodd, #bitcoin-wizards is great for  this
1412 2013-03-01 20:55:45 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Oh, that's not just a joke? Nice!
1413 2013-03-01 20:56:34 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
1414 2013-03-01 20:58:05 rbecker is now known as RBecker
1415 2013-03-01 21:03:51 <amiller> TD, have a look and tell me if you find what i put there acceptable
1416 2013-03-01 21:04:25 <amiller> i removed the language about it being 'trust-free' since it's not, but left it there as an example
1417 2013-03-01 21:04:47 <TD> looks good to me
1418 2013-03-01 21:05:07 <TD> yeah i think eventually we'll develop standard terminology to describe the trust levels of protocols
1419 2013-03-01 21:05:13 <TD> standard crypto already has such terms
1420 2013-03-01 21:05:19 <TD> (proven secure under the random oracle model, etc)
1421 2013-03-01 21:05:35 root2 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1422 2013-03-01 21:06:57 <TD> incidentally, sometimes i wonder about the security of what we're doing with sha256
1423 2013-03-01 21:07:30 bitafterbit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1424 2013-03-01 21:07:31 <petertodd> TD: re: PoW?
1425 2013-03-01 21:07:32 <TD> hashing is the weak point in all crypto proofs, it seems. the output is not truly random. so even though you can't get a specific pre-image, sometimes i wonder if a clever analysis might be able to tip the balance
1426 2013-03-01 21:07:34 <TD> yeah
1427 2013-03-01 21:07:55 <TD> the random oracle model basically means "we can prove this crypto works, if we assume hash functions actually give random output, but they don't so we can't"
1428 2013-03-01 21:07:59 <amiller> it's occurred to me that we're demanding some unusual properties from the hash function way beyond what's typically required
1429 2013-03-01 21:08:11 <amiller> collision resistant and preimage resistant have provable constructions so they're considered "ok"
1430 2013-03-01 21:08:19 <TD> i did ask one of the guys who worked on breaking SHA256 once what he thought about it, and he didn't seem concerned
1431 2013-03-01 21:08:42 <amiller> TD, did you see the bitcoin miner based on a SAT encoding of the hash function
1432 2013-03-01 21:08:46 <TD> no
1433 2013-03-01 21:09:01 <amiller> http://jheusser.github.com/2013/02/03/satcoin.html
1434 2013-03-01 21:09:23 grau_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1435 2013-03-01 21:09:37 <petertodd> It might have been better had the target been based on the distance from a random target value. (whereas the current is distance from 0)
1436 2013-03-01 21:09:59 <amiller> petertodd, yeah
1437 2013-03-01 21:10:18 <amiller> for example the residual of the previous block
1438 2013-03-01 21:10:21 <petertodd> Pick the target value by taking, say, the previous hash, or better yet, one bit from the last 256 previous hashes.
1439 2013-03-01 21:10:53 <petertodd> (IE: bit 0 = last block bit zero, bit 1 = n-1 bit 1 etc, and add something to roll that periodically)
1440 2013-03-01 21:11:03 <petertodd> Simple enough to implement without screwing it up...
1441 2013-03-01 21:11:15 <sipa> TD: you can talk to Sebastiaan Indesteege, he competed in SHA3 and broke a few other candidates' constructions
1442 2013-03-01 21:11:57 <HM> As a novice, Keccak looks pretty interesting. I like that the HMAC construction isn't necessary and you can adjust it to desired strength
1443 2013-03-01 21:12:48 <TD> amiller: i wondered whether you could do some kind of constraint solver on sha256 like that for several years, but never knew enough to find out
1444 2013-03-01 21:13:37 <gmaxwell> HM: The one thing I didn't like about it (beyond it being a bit slow) is that the output is taken from the interior state rather directly, e.g. just after one crank of the sponge. I guess this gives them good performance linearity for small messages.
1445 2013-03-01 21:14:01 <petertodd> Actally: make the random value XOR the output of the hash, that way hardware SHA256 brute forcers are still fast, while (hopefully) screwing up any math approach.
1446 2013-03-01 21:14:46 <HM> gmaxwell: poor finalisation?
1447 2013-03-01 21:15:10 <gmaxwell> HM: well, clearly not poor. But its exactly the same as their update step.
1448 2013-03-01 21:15:37 <gmaxwell> In all but short message applications you can afford a more expensive final step.
1449 2013-03-01 21:16:05 <HM> i read Dan Bernsteins CubeHash candidate and it looked like a sponge to me as well, but i'm only casually aware of this stuff
1450 2013-03-01 21:18:14 <HM> the architecture of hash algorithms seem very random
1451 2013-03-01 21:18:40 <HM> like the authors just sometimes feel like putting certain operations in certain places because it looks good
1452 2013-03-01 21:19:56 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1453 2013-03-01 21:20:20 <sipa> HM: it is rarely arbitrary :)
1454 2013-03-01 21:21:50 <HM> perhaps not, but it seems the fundamental steps are thought out to achieve certain properties and then the rest is "meh, let's see if anyone can attack it and if it looks shakey we'll 'tweak' it"
1455 2013-03-01 21:22:12 <HM> then you wait 3 years to see if it's fallen and kick it out of the door
1456 2013-03-01 21:22:23 <TD> amiller: i wonder if you could make a SAT-solving ASIC-based machine that's faster than brute force
1457 2013-03-01 21:22:47 <HM> even the NIST comments on some of the proposals say things like "we couldn't really see anything wrong with this but it made us feel unwell under a full moon"
1458 2013-03-01 21:24:45 foobar_ has joined
1459 2013-03-01 21:25:38 owowo has joined
1460 2013-03-01 21:25:39 foobar_ has left ()
1461 2013-03-01 21:27:13 grau has joined
1462 2013-03-01 21:27:56 coblee has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1463 2013-03-01 21:28:24 monkeynipples has joined
1464 2013-03-01 21:29:23 <jgarzik> I would like a decentralized short message network, with short term storage (perhaps < 1 week, or < 24 hours)
1465 2013-03-01 21:30:11 <jgarzik> tough to design, and make it usable + spam free.  keep trying to think of bitcoin-based incentives, but the individual income stream tends to be too small to be anything beyond symbolic.
1466 2013-03-01 21:31:41 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1467 2013-03-01 21:33:29 <TD> bitmessage?
1468 2013-03-01 21:34:19 <HM> jgarzik: are you trying to make a decentralised twitter? :P
1469 2013-03-01 21:34:51 <sipa> multiplayer notepad?
1470 2013-03-01 21:35:13 <jgarzik> TD: bitmessage is worth watching, but does not seem to have much in the way of incentives against spam, or incentives to fund/maintain the network
1471 2013-03-01 21:35:43 <TD> email isn't decentralized enough?
1472 2013-03-01 21:35:55 <jgarzik> too unreliable
1473 2013-03-01 21:36:01 <TD> how so?
1474 2013-03-01 21:36:02 <HM> well hashcash tries to disincentivise spam for email
1475 2013-03-01 21:36:12 <HM> by making it expensive
1476 2013-03-01 21:36:19 monkeynipples has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1477 2013-03-01 21:36:26 <sipa> lol
1478 2013-03-01 21:36:34 * jgarzik runs an exim SMTP node, and maintains block lists etc.  TLS use is infrequent, and big providers (not Google, of course) are always way behind on SMTP tech.
1479 2013-03-01 21:37:31 <gmaxwell> the interesting thing about bitmessage is that the flooding potentially provides strong resistance to traffic analysis.
1480 2013-03-01 21:38:18 <gmaxwell> but also provides strong resistance to scaling. :P
1481 2013-03-01 21:40:56 <HM> bitmessage....also using base58
1482 2013-03-01 21:41:19 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1483 2013-03-01 21:41:53 <jgarzik> bitmessage copied a lot from bitcoin, like the network message structure
1484 2013-03-01 21:42:08 <sipa> ha
1485 2013-03-01 21:42:54 ShaTwo has quit (Quit: ShaTwo)
1486 2013-03-01 21:43:40 <TD> jgarzik: and creating a brand new system from scratch solves that problem, how?
1487 2013-03-01 21:43:50 * TD looks at the number of bitcoin nodes on 0.3.x
1488 2013-03-01 21:44:24 <HM> how does 2 way comms work in bitmessage?
1489 2013-03-01 21:45:41 <HM> presumably every message has to include a reply address readable only by the recipient. the whitepaper is light on the details
1490 2013-03-01 21:46:04 torsthaldo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1491 2013-03-01 21:48:50 <HM> ah there's a more technical paper hidden on the subreddit
1492 2013-03-01 21:51:35 <HM> right, so preshared hashes like tor
1493 2013-03-01 21:51:58 swappermall_out_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1494 2013-03-01 21:52:07 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: "poor fools"
1495 2013-03-01 21:52:11 <amiller> hm link to the bitmessage technical paper?
1496 2013-03-01 21:53:10 <HM> https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbitmessage.org%2FBitmessage%2520Technical%2520Paper.pdf
1497 2013-03-01 21:53:23 <HM> it's mostly a message specification
1498 2013-03-01 21:53:27 xjrn has joined
1499 2013-03-01 21:53:35 <HM> err, strip of goog docs if that bothers you
1500 2013-03-01 21:54:32 <HM> they also apparently changed from something else to 256k1
1501 2013-03-01 21:55:00 <gmaxwell> they used RSA before which was daft.
1502 2013-03-01 21:55:17 <gmaxwell> So changing to ECC was good. 256k1 sounds silly to me though.
1503 2013-03-01 21:55:44 <HM> the addresses aren't the same as in Bitcoin so why bother with all the Bitcoinisms?
1504 2013-03-01 21:56:20 <gmaxwell> Inventing your own design errors takes work. :P
1505 2013-03-01 21:56:39 <gmaxwell> but seriously, reinventing the wheel is bad... so nothing wrong with copying things.
1506 2013-03-01 21:57:11 <TD> yup
1507 2013-03-01 21:57:16 <TD> bitcoinstore went down due to overload
1508 2013-03-01 21:57:19 <TD> that's good news i guess
1509 2013-03-01 21:58:58 <HM> private_signing_key = first 32 bytes of SHA-512(passphrase || '\x00')
1510 2013-03-01 21:59:19 <HM> private_encryption_key = first 32 bytes of SHA-512(passphrase || '\x01')
1511 2013-03-01 22:00:47 ShaTwo has joined
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1513 2013-03-01 22:04:00 mappum has joined
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1515 2013-03-01 22:06:09 ThomasV_ has joined
1516 2013-03-01 22:17:50 sega01 has joined
1517 2013-03-01 22:17:54 <sega01> hey! is there a way to make the listtransactions call show unconfirmed transactions?
1518 2013-03-01 22:24:46 <weex> sega01: it does by default
1519 2013-03-01 22:27:03 [\\\] has joined
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1521 2013-03-01 22:29:25 <sega01> oh, really? that's good, i did not know that
1522 2013-03-01 22:29:36 <sega01> i'll have to do some testing on that
1523 2013-03-01 22:30:00 <weex> yeah i use listtransactions and watch confirms over time
1524 2013-03-01 22:30:28 <sega01> so in code you could either act immediately on the transaction, or wait till confirms is greater than a certain amount
1525 2013-03-01 22:30:30 newy6 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1526 2013-03-01 22:30:32 <weex> people suggest other ways but as long as you're making sure to get all the transactions with n confirmations or less, it works great
1527 2013-03-01 22:31:11 <weex> right, i have a python script that does a lot for you at https://github.com/weex/oscommerce-bitcoin/blob/master/script/monitor.py
1528 2013-03-01 22:31:32 <weex> it's kind of adapted for oscommerce but with some minor mods can just talk to mysql however you want
1529 2013-03-01 22:31:38 <sega01> i'm doing a listtransactions "*" 1 every 5 seconds. i make sure it's a receive, process it, and md5sum the output to compare for the next run
1530 2013-03-01 22:31:59 <weex> i would do "*" 100
1531 2013-03-01 22:32:05 <weex> you don't want to miss any
1532 2013-03-01 22:32:40 <sega01> true, but i don't think i'll be getting more than one transaction in a five second period
1533 2013-03-01 22:32:54 <sega01> if i am, i'll be rich :-P
1534 2013-03-01 22:33:19 <sega01> or are there cases where they could be delayed and get them in bulk, aside from being behind on the blockchain?
1535 2013-03-01 22:33:40 <weex> if for some reason they are published in a block only, yes
1536 2013-03-01 22:33:51 <sega01> i like your code. i don't use python, but it's very straightforward
1537 2013-03-01 22:33:54 <weex> like if your node doesn't hear about it on the network before inclusion
1538 2013-03-01 22:34:21 <weex> i have versions of that code running in several places so i can attest to its utility
1539 2013-03-01 22:34:31 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1540 2013-03-01 22:34:37 <sega01> i like your | grep -v grep. i use that a lot
1541 2013-03-01 22:34:49 <sega01> while true; do ps aux | grep command | grep -v grep; done
1542 2013-03-01 22:34:58 <sega01> works really well on blackbox servers that you're trying to see what's going on with
1543 2013-03-01 22:35:36 xjrn has joined
1544 2013-03-01 22:36:05 <sega01> i'll do some testing. might do as you suggest with grabbing the last hundred just to be safe
1545 2013-03-01 22:36:22 <sega01> could maybe also do some debug.log tailing
1546 2013-03-01 22:36:39 <sega01> (my billing code is in bash; it's kinda weird)
1547 2013-03-01 22:37:14 <phantomcircuit> i can never find anything
1548 2013-03-01 22:44:00 xjrn has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1549 2013-03-01 22:45:44 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1550 2013-03-01 22:46:46 <Diablo-D3> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130301/00190222165/federal-judge-alex-kozinski-talks-about-using-tor-to-surf-silk-road-armory-drugs-weapons-hitmen.shtml
1551 2013-03-01 22:47:49 dparrish has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1552 2013-03-01 22:48:05 <phantomcircuit> there's no hitmen on the silkroad :|
1553 2013-03-01 22:48:32 ThomasV_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1554 2013-03-01 22:48:33 dparrish has joined
1555 2013-03-01 22:49:01 MobiusL has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1556 2013-03-01 22:49:08 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: really? =/
1557 2013-03-01 22:49:12 * Diablo-D3 wanted to buy a few
1558 2013-03-01 22:49:22 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, so sorry
1559 2013-03-01 22:49:35 <phantomcircuit> they actually have really strict rules about nothing they find immoral
1560 2013-03-01 22:49:42 <phantomcircuit> such as hitmen and child pornography
1561 2013-03-01 22:49:48 <Diablo-D3> >drugs
1562 2013-03-01 22:49:49 <Diablo-D3> >not immoral
1563 2013-03-01 22:50:06 <phantomcircuit> well i did say what they find immoral
1564 2013-03-01 22:50:11 <Diablo-D3> wonkafindsthisintriguing.jpg
1565 2013-03-01 22:50:24 <phantomcircuit> of course that doesn't stop reporters from constantly saying they sell those things
1566 2013-03-01 22:50:38 <phantomcircuit> which tells me they aren't even actually looking for themselves
1567 2013-03-01 22:50:43 <phantomcircuit> sigh reporters...
1568 2013-03-01 22:50:46 xjrn has joined
1569 2013-03-01 22:50:51 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: you do realize tech dirt are the good guys, right?
1570 2013-03-01 22:51:20 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: read further when they sink judge kozinski's ship
1571 2013-03-01 22:52:09 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, yes i do
1572 2013-03-01 22:52:17 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: btw, it doesn't say silk road had hitmen
1573 2013-03-01 22:52:23 <phantomcircuit> they immediately call his bluff on the armory
1574 2013-03-01 22:52:25 <phantomcircuit> since it's closed
1575 2013-03-01 22:52:32 <Diablo-D3> I don't know what the armory is, but I think thats where the hit men were from
1576 2013-03-01 22:53:10 <Diablo-D3> Of course, he also noted that it's entirely possible the whole thing is a front by the feds to track these kinds of things, but if so, he was impressed with the level of detail.
1577 2013-03-01 22:53:12 <Diablo-D3> dude
1578 2013-03-01 22:53:18 <Diablo-D3> that judge is a #bitcoin regular
1579 2013-03-01 22:53:26 <Diablo-D3> he's heard that line from me
1580 2013-03-01 22:53:28 <gmaxwell> "He showed a few sites for hiring hitmen, and joked that two of them had such similar language and pricing that he was tempted to report them to the FTC for likely collusion"
1581 2013-03-01 22:53:38 <gmaxwell> Maybe they were those pirate bounty pages?
1582 2013-03-01 22:53:42 <phantomcircuit> no they sold weapons (ironically i believe they were mostly legally sold... woo america!!!)
1583 2013-03-01 22:53:54 <HM> I'd like to hire 2 hitmen to kill one another
1584 2013-03-01 22:54:00 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: its only legal if the proper paperwork was filed
1585 2013-03-01 22:54:04 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol he's talking about the scam hitman pages
1586 2013-03-01 22:54:06 <HM> wait, isn't that a film :|
1587 2013-03-01 22:54:07 <gmaxwell> HM: I shouldn't laugh at that but I am.
1588 2013-03-01 22:54:08 <Diablo-D3> HM: wasn't there a movie about that once?
1589 2013-03-01 22:54:16 <phantomcircuit> there's a few dozen of them that are pretty obviously the same person
1590 2013-03-01 22:54:24 <HM> Diablo-D3: Mr and Mrs Smith? :S
1591 2013-03-01 22:54:29 <Diablo-D3> never seen it
1592 2013-03-01 22:54:33 <HM> Sure sure
1593 2013-03-01 22:54:46 <Diablo-D3> the trailer made that seem they were on the same side
1594 2013-03-01 22:54:54 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: well that was some wild speculation, perhaps— but thats the only 'hiring hitmen' stuff I've ever seen.
1595 2013-03-01 22:54:58 <phantomcircuit> there's one that's been up for years that used to do liberty reserve
1596 2013-03-01 22:55:21 <phantomcircuit> there have been hire a hitman pages for a long time
1597 2013-03-01 22:55:25 <phantomcircuit> of course they're just a scam
1598 2013-03-01 22:55:31 <phantomcircuit> (fortunately)
1599 2013-03-01 22:55:39 * Diablo-D3 restarterates his browser
1600 2013-03-01 22:55:41 xjrn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1601 2013-03-01 22:55:44 <Diablo-D3> I still wish I knew why firefox does that
1602 2013-03-01 22:55:49 <Diablo-D3> run it for about 2-3 weeks
1603 2013-03-01 22:55:53 <Diablo-D3> it slows to a crawl
1604 2013-03-01 22:56:04 <phantomcircuit> http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/13/03/01/224257/how-power-failures-corrupt-flash-ssd-data
1605 2013-03-01 22:56:05 <phantomcircuit> sigh
1606 2013-03-01 22:56:11 <phantomcircuit> and this is why i still dont use an ssd
1607 2013-03-01 22:56:17 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: er
1608 2013-03-01 22:56:20 Shealan has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1609 2013-03-01 22:56:27 <Diablo-D3> you do realize thats a bullshit story right?
1610 2013-03-01 22:56:36 <Diablo-D3> its the identical failure mode mechanical drives have
1611 2013-03-01 22:56:52 <Diablo-D3> powering it down in the middle of a write can scramble data anywhere near the head, not just what you're writing
1612 2013-03-01 22:56:59 <phantomcircuit> https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/fast13/fast13-final80.pdf
1613 2013-03-01 22:57:01 <Diablo-D3> on ssds, its nearby cells
1614 2013-03-01 22:57:59 <Diablo-D3> don't want it to happen? don't have power failures
1615 2013-03-01 22:58:09 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, actually i suspect there is an actual problem with the way firmware handles writes
1616 2013-03-01 22:58:22 <phantomcircuit> well i DO have a UPS
1617 2013-03-01 22:58:29 <phantomcircuit> and it is setup to send a shutdown signal
1618 2013-03-01 22:58:46 <phantomcircuit> the power where i work is totally stupid
1619 2013-03-01 22:58:56 <phantomcircuit> lightbulbs last for like maybe a month tops
1620 2013-03-01 22:59:03 <phantomcircuit> i should really get that fixed
1621 2013-03-01 22:59:24 <Diablo-D3> well
1622 2013-03-01 22:59:28 <Diablo-D3> what you should do in the meantime is
1623 2013-03-01 22:59:37 <Diablo-D3> get a brick wall surge protector and an enterprise class double converting UPS
1624 2013-03-01 23:00:21 <helo> faster write times probably tips the scale in favor of ssd
1625 2013-03-01 23:00:44 <Diablo-D3> helo: not really.
1626 2013-03-01 23:00:52 <Diablo-D3> I can do 200mb/sec sequential writes on a mechanical hd
1627 2013-03-01 23:01:06 <Diablo-D3> what tips the scale is no head move latency since theres no heads to move
1628 2013-03-01 23:01:26 <helo> hmm... makes sense
1629 2013-03-01 23:01:27 xjrn has joined
1630 2013-03-01 23:01:50 <Diablo-D3> random seeks kill mechanical drive performance
1631 2013-03-01 23:02:14 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, i have a 3500 J surge protector before a cheapo UPS
1632 2013-03-01 23:02:23 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: a cheap UPS does nothing
1633 2013-03-01 23:02:27 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1634 2013-03-01 23:02:31 <phantomcircuit> it's the cheapest UPS i could find that doesn't run in bypass
1635 2013-03-01 23:02:44 <Diablo-D3> and the reason I recommend brickwall is because they're series mode surge protectors
1636 2013-03-01 23:03:02 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: not bypass == always online
1637 2013-03-01 23:03:23 <Diablo-D3> the cheapest ones that are safe to use are about $500 and up
1638 2013-03-01 23:03:40 <phantomcircuit> eh
1639 2013-03-01 23:03:57 <phantomcircuit> im just trying to avoid a nuisance and/or blown out workstation
1640 2013-03-01 23:04:20 <Diablo-D3> so am I.
1641 2013-03-01 23:04:24 <Diablo-D3> I don't trust the power company
1642 2013-03-01 23:04:32 <Diablo-D3> just because nothing has happened in 23 years doesn't mean it wont
1643 2013-03-01 23:04:35 one_zero has joined
1644 2013-03-01 23:05:13 <phantomcircuit> at $500 i'd be better off just buying a new workstation
1645 2013-03-01 23:06:09 <phantomcircuit> while there's people here
1646 2013-03-01 23:06:24 <Diablo-D3> http://www.brickwall.com/collections/surge-protectors-computer-server/products/standard-two-outlet-surge-protector
1647 2013-03-01 23:06:27 <phantomcircuit> does IsStandard have any effect on minimum relay fee?
1648 2013-03-01 23:06:32 xjrn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1649 2013-03-01 23:06:34 <Diablo-D3> I have two of those
1650 2013-03-01 23:06:37 <Diablo-D3> one upstairs, one downstairs
1651 2013-03-01 23:07:20 LargoG has joined
1652 2013-03-01 23:07:40 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: and $500 is a permanent investment
1653 2013-03-01 23:08:17 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, well im pretty sure the power issue im having is basically a brown out on a single circuit
1654 2013-03-01 23:08:23 <phantomcircuit> which is probably bad
1655 2013-03-01 23:08:38 <Diablo-D3> yeah, and a double converting always online ups would protect you from that
1656 2013-03-01 23:08:55 <Diablo-D3> replacing the entire circuit breaker box would be a great idea too
1657 2013-03-01 23:09:21 <phantomcircuit> unfortunately i think it's the wiring
1658 2013-03-01 23:09:35 <phantomcircuit> it's knob and tube
1659 2013-03-01 23:10:51 <Diablo-D3> eww
1660 2013-03-01 23:10:51 <phantomcircuit> i actually dont care and would just run new wiring outside the wall but i dont think that would be acceptable to other effected parties
1661 2013-03-01 23:11:20 <phantomcircuit> what knob and tube?
1662 2013-03-01 23:11:22 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1663 2013-03-01 23:11:26 <phantomcircuit> who needs ground? AMIRITE
1664 2013-03-01 23:11:35 DarkGHost` has joined
1665 2013-03-01 23:11:58 <DarkGHost`> hello, I installed bitcoind and then sent some bitcoins to an address I made with getnewaddress, and I haven't received the money sent. any idea?
1666 2013-03-01 23:13:15 <phantomcircuit> DarkGHost`, if you generated the transaction before your node was syncronized with the network it's possible that it wasn't actually broadcast
1667 2013-03-01 23:13:29 <phantomcircuit> your best bet is to leave the client open and wait
1668 2013-03-01 23:13:31 <phantomcircuit> for at least an hour
1669 2013-03-01 23:14:57 PhantomSpark has joined
1670 2013-03-01 23:16:14 <DarkGHost`> how many blocks
1671 2013-03-01 23:16:16 <DarkGHost`> should it be at?
1672 2013-03-01 23:16:26 <DarkGHost`> and  how do I know when its synchronized?
1673 2013-03-01 23:16:29 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
1674 2013-03-01 23:16:30 <gribble> 223808
1675 2013-03-01 23:16:32 <phantomcircuit> that many
1676 2013-03-01 23:16:59 <phantomcircuit> there's an indicator on the bottom part of the window
1677 2013-03-01 23:17:46 <rdponticelli1> It's bitcoind. DarkGHost` : Try bitcoind getinfo
1678 2013-03-01 23:18:11 <DarkGHost`> okay
1679 2013-03-01 23:18:12 <DarkGHost`> its at 18k
1680 2013-03-01 23:18:24 <DarkGHost`> so wait till 22k before expecting to see the new balance?
1681 2013-03-01 23:18:40 <rdponticelli1> DarkGHost`: Basically
1682 2013-03-01 23:18:47 <phantomcircuit> DarkGHost`, you're at block 18k? or 180k
1683 2013-03-01 23:18:53 <phantomcircuit> there's a very big difference
1684 2013-03-01 23:18:55 <rdponticelli1> You can check the address on a web blockexplorer
1685 2013-03-01 23:19:00 <DarkGHost`> 18k
1686 2013-03-01 23:19:10 <DarkGHost`> 183322
1687 2013-03-01 23:19:19 DarkGHost` is now known as DarkGhost`
1688 2013-03-01 23:19:54 <HM> I have some 18 carat Gold to sell you DarkGhost`
1689 2013-03-01 23:20:04 <DarkGhost`> ill take it
1690 2013-03-01 23:21:48 <DarkGhost`> okay, next question
1691 2013-03-01 23:22:12 <DarkGhost`> why when I getnewaddress("user") and getaccountaddress("user") there different?
1692 2013-03-01 23:24:43 <rdponticelli1> DarkGhost`: Because the daemon issue a new address for that account with that call
1693 2013-03-01 23:24:55 <rdponticelli1> You have to do listaddressesbyaccount
1694 2013-03-01 23:24:59 <DarkGhost`> so there the same function?
1695 2013-03-01 23:26:02 SchmalzTech_away is now known as SchmalzTech
1696 2013-03-01 23:26:35 <rdponticelli1> I'm not aware of its differences...
1697 2013-03-01 23:26:56 <rdponticelli1> Maybe geaccountaddress fails if the account is not existant...
1698 2013-03-01 23:27:21 [\\\] has joined
1699 2013-03-01 23:27:42 <DarkGhost`> im at 183,630 blocks
1700 2013-03-01 23:27:55 <DarkGhost`> no payment
1701 2013-03-01 23:27:55 <DarkGhost`> :(
1702 2013-03-01 23:29:21 [\\\] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1703 2013-03-01 23:30:28 SchmalzTech has left ()
1704 2013-03-01 23:30:33 <dhill> does a client need the entire blockchain to make a transaction?
1705 2013-03-01 23:30:54 ahbritto_ has joined
1706 2013-03-01 23:31:10 [\\\] has joined
1707 2013-03-01 23:31:24 <HM> DarkGhost`: the transaction you are waiting for will be in a recent block
1708 2013-03-01 23:31:38 <HM> DarkGhost`: if you know the address you should be able to find it on blockexplorer or blockchain.info
1709 2013-03-01 23:31:45 <DarkGhost`> i do
1710 2013-03-01 23:31:49 <DarkGhost`> and I see that it was sent
1711 2013-03-01 23:31:51 <DarkGhost`> with 6 confirmations
1712 2013-03-01 23:31:59 <HM> then you have little to worry about
1713 2013-03-01 23:32:00 <DarkGhost`> but i want to see it via my php script with getbalance
1714 2013-03-01 23:32:24 <Gu_______> anyone here using django-bitcoin? I can't seem to read inbound transactions from a wallet
1715 2013-03-01 23:33:00 ahbritto__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1716 2013-03-01 23:33:04 <rdponticelli1> DarkGhost`: I think it won't show in getbalance until the client sees it as confirmed
1717 2013-03-01 23:33:40 ahbritto has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1718 2013-03-01 23:34:02 ahbritto__ has joined
1719 2013-03-01 23:34:14 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1720 2013-03-01 23:34:38 <rdponticelli1> dhill: AFAIK no, the client can send without been up to date
1721 2013-03-01 23:34:52 <sipa> DarkGhost`: getnewaddress always creates a new address, getaccountaddress returns the last address if unused
1722 2013-03-01 23:35:02 <DarkGhost`> so either oen will work
1723 2013-03-01 23:36:05 <DarkGhost`> is there always a transaction fee of .0005?
1724 2013-03-01 23:36:26 <sipa> no, depends on different criteria
1725 2013-03-01 23:36:37 <DarkGhost`> well through my gui on windows
1726 2013-03-01 23:36:41 <sipa> basically if the client suspects the network will consider your transaction spam, it will require a fee
1727 2013-03-01 23:36:45 <DarkGhost`> i can't send .0001 without the .005
1728 2013-03-01 23:37:19 <sipa> it depends on the amount and age of the inputs, the size (in bytes) of the created transaction, and the amounts of the outputs
1729 2013-03-01 23:37:25 <DarkGhost`> gotcha
1730 2013-03-01 23:37:28 <DarkGhost`> so .0001 is too small lol
1731 2013-03-01 23:37:44 <HM> sipa: is it cheaper for old inputs?
1732 2013-03-01 23:38:24 <sipa> HM: age and amount of inputs divided by size in bytes determines the priority of the transaction
1733 2013-03-01 23:38:31 <sipa> if the priority is too low, it cannot be free
1734 2013-03-01 23:38:42 <sipa> and if it is not free, it must have 0.0005 BTC per kb or so
1735 2013-03-01 23:38:52 nowan has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1736 2013-03-01 23:39:40 <HM> right, so older = higher priority to reduce the unspent set
1737 2013-03-01 23:39:49 <HM> nice nice
1738 2013-03-01 23:40:14 nowan has joined
1739 2013-03-01 23:40:14 <sipa> not really - these rules are older than the first mentioning of UTXO sets iirc
1740 2013-03-01 23:40:29 <sipa> the reason for this rule is to prevent spam
1741 2013-03-01 23:40:34 <HM> ah
1742 2013-03-01 23:40:47 <sipa> (it makes it very hard to send a same small coin to and fro between two addresses)
1743 2013-03-01 23:41:08 <DarkGhost`> is there a way to find out how many blocks there is?
1744 2013-03-01 23:41:09 MobiusL has joined
1745 2013-03-01 23:41:15 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1746 2013-03-01 23:41:15 <gribble> 223809
1747 2013-03-01 23:41:19 <DarkGhost`> oh its the same
1748 2013-03-01 23:41:21 <DarkGhost`> for everyone?
1749 2013-03-01 23:41:28 <DarkGhost`> gotcha
1750 2013-03-01 23:41:29 <DarkGhost`> thank you
1751 2013-03-01 23:41:32 <DarkGhost`> sorry i know im asking stupid questions.
1752 2013-03-01 23:48:12 n000by has joined
1753 2013-03-01 23:49:41 MiningBuddy has joined
1754 2013-03-01 23:49:41 MiningBuddy has quit (Changing host)
1755 2013-03-01 23:49:41 MiningBuddy has joined
1756 2013-03-01 23:50:22 MiningBuddy has quit (Client Quit)
1757 2013-03-01 23:50:29 <andytoshi> so, how come -every- transaction is the standard form "OP_DUP  OP_HASH160  OP_PUSH[20] 9d40106d987d35b7f50e2115f7804c12f02592e4 OP_EQUALVERIFY  OP_CHECKSIG"?
1758 2013-03-01 23:50:42 <andytoshi> i went to all this work to write a transaction decoder and have every block decoded and emailed to me
1759 2013-03-01 23:50:46 <andytoshi> and it's sooooo boring
1760 2013-03-01 23:51:05 <sipa> some are send-to-pubkey
1761 2013-03-01 23:51:15 <sipa> and there are probably a few multisig ones too
1762 2013-03-01 23:51:33 <sipa> but 99.9% is certainly send-to-pubkeyhash yes
1763 2013-03-01 23:51:53 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1764 2013-03-01 23:51:58 MiningBuddy has joined
1765 2013-03-01 23:51:58 MiningBuddy has quit (Changing host)
1766 2013-03-01 23:51:58 MiningBuddy has joined
1767 2013-03-01 23:54:04 <HM> doesn't mainnet require standard form atm/
1768 2013-03-01 23:54:06 <HM> ?
1769 2013-03-01 23:54:21 <petertodd> andytoshi: 2bf4ff04b40d03ff71570877d8267aed91d3595d172737d096241d08277135e2 "Yo dawg, I put a transaction in your transaction!"
1770 2013-03-01 23:54:28 [\\\]_t has joined
1771 2013-03-01 23:55:09 <HM> i guess not
1772 2013-03-01 23:55:24 <petertodd> HM: Had to get Eligius to mine that one for me.
1773 2013-03-01 23:56:05 <HM> ah right, it's just the standard client that won't mine spicy stuff
1774 2013-03-01 23:56:13 <petertodd> Yup
1775 2013-03-01 23:56:25 <HM> i've probably asked that a dozen times already because I'm pretty sure I knew that
1776 2013-03-01 23:56:46 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1777 2013-03-01 23:57:46 moore_ has joined
1778 2013-03-01 23:58:01 sgornick has joined
1779 2013-03-01 23:58:15 RBecker is now known as rbecker