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  10 2013-03-02 00:17:30 <muhoo> is there some way to analyse how much of this btc->usd spike is due to people using it as a currency vs. just hoarding, like goldbugs, or speculating/bubnlimg?
  11 2013-03-02 00:17:37 <muhoo> bubbling?
  12 2013-03-02 00:18:43 <muhoo> i'm sure people who do a lot of stock market stuf have tools to apply tp that question, but i don't happen to be one of them
  13 2013-03-02 00:19:52 <muhoo> ause i mean delta of $1/day would mean btc is over $300 in a year, that's insane
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  17 2013-03-02 00:30:45 <phantomcircuit> HM, standard form isn't required once the transaction is in a block, but is required by most nodes to relay the transaction
  18 2013-03-02 00:30:52 <HM> muhoo: if someone had a perfect tool to detect and predict bubbles they'd be very rich
  19 2013-03-02 00:31:04 <HM> phantomcircuit: danke
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  34 2013-03-02 00:47:42 <jgarzik> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=148147.msg1572572#msg1572572
  35 2013-03-02 00:47:46 <jgarzik> "Often customers who complain on bitcointalk about delays have triggered some risk system at Gox; I can't go into detail, but let me just say, there are many, many bad folks who want to use the exchange."
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  42 2013-03-02 00:57:33 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: courage to say that on trolltalk.
  43 2013-03-02 00:58:20 <gmaxwell> To some there the only crime is to admit that you believe unethical or unlawful conduct can exist.
  44 2013-03-02 01:01:29 Diablo-D3 has joined
  45 2013-03-02 01:05:17 <muhoo> HM: nott predict, just analyse. not perfect, either
  46 2013-03-02 01:05:43 xjrn has joined
  47 2013-03-02 01:06:00 <muhoo> just some simple metrics, lots buying, nobody selling, indicates hoardimg, almost by definition
  48 2013-03-02 01:07:30 <muhoo> if it's a currency, people buy so that they can spenf. if they're gambling, they buy so theycan watch the price go up
  49 2013-03-02 01:07:49 <muhoo> gawd typing on a tablet SUCKS
  50 2013-03-02 01:08:14 xjrn has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  51 2013-03-02 01:08:53 <muhoo> this must have been solved 100 years ago in fiat finance
  52 2013-03-02 01:10:32 <HM> if price is rising then demand outstrips supply
  53 2013-03-02 01:10:43 <HM> assuming nobody has cornered the market
  54 2013-03-02 01:10:52 <HM> that's all the economics i know
  55 2013-03-02 01:10:59 <HM> and it's probably wrong
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  61 2013-03-02 01:36:02 <denisx> the last diff change is only one day old but we already have 700 blocks since then?
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  63 2013-03-02 01:36:42 <denisx> hmm, no. bitcoincharts are messed up I thing
  64 2013-03-02 01:36:44 <denisx> think
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 100 2013-03-02 03:23:14 <BTC_Bear> tcatm: Your site seems to be down.
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 106 2013-03-02 03:38:10 <tcatm> BTC_Bear: which?
 107 2013-03-02 03:38:34 <BTC_Bear> bitcoincharts don't know if it is still down
 108 2013-03-02 03:38:39 <BTC_Bear> or is that ngix now
 109 2013-03-02 03:40:03 <tcatm> works fine here
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 111 2013-03-02 03:41:47 <BTC_Bear> it was down earlier, nvm then. sorry to bother.
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 113 2013-03-02 03:42:38 <BTC_Bear> it was 502 badgateway... meh
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 157 2013-03-02 05:32:02 <wladston> Would it be hard to make the Pynode client into an SPV light client ?
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 165 2013-03-02 05:53:46 <wladston> It seems that BitcoinJ is the only SPV client fully working as of now
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 183 2013-03-02 06:48:41 <muhoo> my god, it's UTXO not UTX0
 184 2013-03-02 06:48:58 <muhoo> damned ascii
 185 2013-03-02 06:50:17 <lianj> :D
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 198 2013-03-02 07:12:09 <muhoo> bee doing too much RS-232 and embedded programming
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 200 2013-03-02 07:12:41 <muhoo> there is no UTX1 or UTX2
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 203 2013-03-02 07:18:43 <petertodd>  /join #bitcoin-otc
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 206 2013-03-02 07:22:53 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: already there
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 208 2013-03-02 07:23:52 <petertodd> need to stop hitting space before irc commands...
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 218 2013-03-02 08:00:47 <muhoo> ok here is the problem i'm having with fees. i don't see how to accept a payment that is > 1 input, because
 219 2013-03-02 08:01:47 <muhoo> what if there are say 12 inputs, and the tx i'll need to pass on might have fees as a result (too big)? how could i know that before telling the customer what they owe? i could just eat the fees, but that sucks.
 220 2013-03-02 08:02:26 <muhoo> i probably really need BIP32 to do this right, but i ain't waiting.
 221 2013-03-02 08:04:10 <gmaxwell> I cannot comprehend how you think BIP32 has anything to do with your fees.
 222 2013-03-02 08:04:23 <gmaxwell> Pass on? accept? what are you doing?
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 224 2013-03-02 08:05:39 <Diablo-D3> I think muhoo is confusing credit card fees with bitcoin fees
 225 2013-03-02 08:05:56 <Diablo-D3> in the immoral world where people live on debt, the merchant pays fees
 226 2013-03-02 08:06:01 <Diablo-D3> in bitcoin, the customer does
 227 2013-03-02 08:06:03 <gmaxwell> pretty sure muhoo knows that bitcoin is sender pays.
 228 2013-03-02 08:06:26 <muhoo> yes, i do know that. but i need to pass them on in this case.
 229 2013-03-02 08:06:28 <Diablo-D3> then I don't understand his question
 230 2013-03-02 08:06:32 <muhoo> because i'm an intermediary
 231 2013-03-02 08:06:38 <Diablo-D3> muhoo: then you eat them.
 232 2013-03-02 08:06:45 <Diablo-D3> you don't know the fee until the tx is already created
 233 2013-03-02 08:06:59 <muhoo> cust buys song from me, i pass the payment on to musician in separate tx
 234 2013-03-02 08:07:05 <gmaxwell> muhoo: how many inputs the person paying you used has no influence on the txn you subsiquently create.
 235 2013-03-02 08:07:24 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: it technically does
 236 2013-03-02 08:07:42 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: if he has a lot of high input count tx as input, he will invariably have high input count tx as output
 237 2013-03-02 08:07:54 <gmaxwell> Gibberish.
 238 2013-03-02 08:08:12 <Diablo-D3> why?
 239 2013-03-02 08:08:25 <Diablo-D3> oh right
 240 2013-03-02 08:08:27 <muhoo> i'm creating one address per sale. i'm waiting for that ddress to collect enough btc to pay for the song. once it's paid up, i create a new tx, collect all the coins sent to that address, into a new tx, pass that on to the musician
 241 2013-03-02 08:08:32 <Diablo-D3> because it'd only be one input when he passes it on
 242 2013-03-02 08:08:38 <gmaxwell> Customer has a tx with 10 input, 1 output (to you), you then write a tx with 1 input (the customers) and 1 output.
 243 2013-03-02 08:08:38 <Diablo-D3> since it'd compact the inputs
 244 2013-03-02 08:08:50 <muhoo> no, it could be a bunch, if it were paid with multiple tx'es
 245 2013-03-02 08:08:50 <Diablo-D3> muhoo: guess what, you're worrying about nothing
 246 2013-03-02 08:09:12 <Diablo-D3> if they were paid with multiple txes, you need better customers
 247 2013-03-02 08:09:15 <muhoo> gmaxwell: that's what i expected, but TD pointed out that people could pay with multiple tx'es
 248 2013-03-02 08:09:30 <muhoo> claimed i should handle that situation
 249 2013-03-02 08:10:05 <muhoo> if that's so rare as to be a theoretical thing, then i won't worry about i
 250 2013-03-02 08:10:07 <muhoo> it
 251 2013-03-02 08:10:47 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't worry about it, just eat the fee, and if its a concern add 0.001 BTC/txn fee on to eh customer.
 252 2013-03-02 08:11:30 <muhoo> man, there's something about this project that is causing me so much analysis paralysis
 253 2013-03-02 08:12:40 <gmaxwell> you're not alone.
 254 2013-03-02 08:12:53 <gmaxwell> I've seen this happen to other people wrt fees too, fwiw.
 255 2013-03-02 08:13:23 <gmaxwell> "You realize you're talking about fees on the scale of cents per transaction, right?" If it becomes a problem thats great news!
 256 2013-03-02 08:13:39 <muhoo> true
 257 2013-03-02 08:13:47 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: also, you shouldn't be passing it on to the musician until you've aggregated a bunch of purchases togehter anyway
 258 2013-03-02 08:14:03 <muhoo> no, i want those coins gone off my network asap
 259 2013-03-02 08:14:11 <muhoo> do not want coins sitting around
 260 2013-03-02 08:14:16 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: then have them sent direct to the musician -.-
 261 2013-03-02 08:14:40 <muhoo> single address, and i need to take a cut out for the label, and hopefuly for myself
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 263 2013-03-02 08:14:53 <Luke-Jr> then aggregate.
 264 2013-03-02 08:14:54 <muhoo> if BIP32 was implemented, maybe i could do that
 265 2013-03-02 08:15:04 <gmaxwell> what does BIP32 have to do with anything????
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 268 2013-03-02 08:15:30 <muhoo> a way to generate a bunch of "child" addresses, i.e. one per sale
 269 2013-03-02 08:15:31 <gmaxwell> wrt holding coins— if your system isn't secure you shouldn't be accepting— someone who compromises you can still intercept all intcoming transfers.
 270 2013-03-02 08:16:11 Arnavion has joined
 271 2013-03-02 08:16:13 <gmaxwell> muhoo: just precompute 100k addresses in your wallet and dish them out.
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 274 2013-03-02 08:17:44 <muhoo> i'm trying to use the chain as an accounting tool too, very transparent
 275 2013-03-02 08:17:59 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: that's not what the chain is for; that's basically abusing it
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 277 2013-03-02 08:19:18 <muhoo> that's kind of the big advantage of using BTC. the audit trail is all there
 278 2013-03-02 08:19:20 <gmaxwell> You can have transparent accounting without the chain.
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 280 2013-03-02 08:19:42 <muhoo> you can look at a sale, and see who took what cut, by looking at the transaction
 281 2013-03-02 08:20:26 <gmaxwell> uh, no. it really isn't bitcoin itself doesn't tell you what any of it means. Knowing _who_ any of it is depends on you telling people... and that can be done without creating a bunch of inefficient transactions, or requring a lot of hard to secure online signing keys.
 282 2013-03-02 08:20:52 <Luke-Jr> the big advantage to Bitcoin is that nobody can inflate it. everything else is personal extra motives
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 284 2013-03-02 08:21:24 <muhoo> really? the price seems to eb inflating daily
 285 2013-03-02 08:21:29 <muhoo> ;;ticker
 286 2013-03-02 08:21:30 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 33.70000, Best ask: 33.91864, Bid-ask spread: 0.21864, Last trade: 33.92936, 24 hour volume: 60754.39902867, 24 hour low: 33.15000, 24 hour high: 34.90000, 24 hour vwap: 34.13791
 287 2013-03-02 08:21:41 <gmaxwell> thats deflating.
 288 2013-03-02 08:21:44 <gmaxwell> ::facepalm::
 289 2013-03-02 08:22:17 <Luke-Jr> I suppose from one perspective, you could say Bitcoin has a predictable inflation. I just look at the 21 MBTC total and see it never inflating.
 290 2013-03-02 08:23:15 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Bounded inflation :P
 291 2013-03-02 08:24:15 <petertodd> By, what is it, 50BTC/21MBTC coins never created right now?
 292 2013-03-02 08:26:37 <muhoo> well at this point i'm off topic, but i have to wonder if a deflationary currency is a good thing (for anyone who doesn't already have a nice phat hoard of it, of course)
 293 2013-03-02 08:27:00 <muhoo> but i'll march on and not worry about too much of this stuff, we'll see where it all ends up
 294 2013-03-02 08:27:11 <muhoo> thanks
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 296 2013-03-02 08:27:21 <petertodd> off-topic, but keep in mind, deflation vs. inflation is just a way of setting up economic circumstance - inflation is basically taxation, and sometimes taxation turns out to be useful
 297 2013-03-02 08:27:23 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: it encourages saving. that's a good thing IMO
 298 2013-03-02 08:27:55 <muhoo> saving for what? i mean, if everyone saves, nobody gets any income.
 299 2013-03-02 08:28:07 <Luke-Jr> on the other hand, it makes it harder to get adoption against inflating competitors
 300 2013-03-02 08:28:14 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: you can't save everything
 301 2013-03-02 08:28:17 <Luke-Jr> gotta live..
 302 2013-03-02 08:28:21 * muhoo pictures a bunch of people sitting on gold and starving to death.
 303 2013-03-02 08:28:41 <muhoo> yeah, i dunno. it's hard not to get over analytical about all this
 304 2013-03-02 08:28:46 <petertodd> muhoo: It's all just numbers in balance books that encourage people to act in particular ways. There is no such thing as saving outside of society.
 305 2013-03-02 08:28:56 <Luke-Jr> also, I bet people would still spend money on "wants" even with deflationa
 306 2013-03-02 08:29:20 <muhoo> i do recall seeing discussions of demurrage, so perhaps someone's already thought this through
 307 2013-03-02 08:29:36 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: Demurrage is Freicoin
 308 2013-03-02 08:30:49 <muhoo> Luke-Jr: nice, thanks!
 309 2013-03-02 08:31:17 <petertodd> muhoo: Remember that what demurrage is really saying is "Yes, you did a bunch of work and got these magic work units in return, but unless you use those work units to tell someone else to do some work soon, we're going to not let you do that anymore"
 310 2013-03-02 08:31:33 <petertodd> muhoo: Is that a good or bad thing? Depends
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 313 2013-03-02 08:33:00 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: there will always be deflationary currency - and people will rationally seek to get rid of their inflationary to acquire deflationary for savings ;)
 314 2013-03-02 08:33:23 <Luke-Jr> and those not smart enough to think of this, will be trying to live paycheck-to-paycheck more or less
 315 2013-03-02 08:33:48 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: well sure, but government can try pretty hard to stamp it out, even gold isn't immune to that. (bitcoin may even prove to be more immune)
 316 2013-03-02 08:34:38 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: if you succeed, then you basically force rational actors to live paycheck-to-paycheck as well, and everyone ends up in wage slavery
 317 2013-03-02 08:35:20 <Luke-Jr> (but I don't think you can succeed - worst case I use guns/ammo/food as currency)
 318 2013-03-02 08:35:21 <muhoo> i spent enough time in business to kind of chuckle at the idea of "rational" actors. humans are not rational.
 319 2013-03-02 08:35:48 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: But that's the thing, everyone ending up in wage slavery may or may not be a good thing. Fundementally work needs to be done for society to function.
 320 2013-03-02 08:35:49 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: this is why I stay at home and avoid [other] humans. :P
 321 2013-03-02 08:36:26 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I mean wage slavery as opposed to freedom to start your own business
 322 2013-03-02 08:36:39 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I don't really quite believe that inflation and deflation are all that different in fact. Consider— a currency that constantly adds more to everyone that has it... inflating slowly.. or one that has it rot (and go to no one) from everyone holding it.. deflating slowly. I think these systems are actually the same.  Where inflation/deflation are different is what winners and losers they make.
 323 2013-03-02 08:36:42 <muhoo> look, i can do a reductio ad absurdum for the austrians, or for the occupy guys behind freicoin. reality will have to be somewhere in... reality.
 324 2013-03-02 08:36:46 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Ah, yes, that's saner, can't start without capital for the most part.
 325 2013-03-02 08:37:26 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: k, I don't care for either of those groups :P
 326 2013-03-02 08:38:08 <petertodd> gmaxwell: That's the fundemental issue, they're just numbers in a computer, and because the numbers change differently on differnt timescales, different groups take advantage of them. Inflation helps those who borrow, deflation those who save.
 327 2013-03-02 08:38:18 <muhoo> Luke-Jr: that's good to know. the deflationary aspect of BTC was feeling kind of austrian to me, and i worry about the current bubble being goldbug hoarding.
 328 2013-03-02 08:38:39 <petertodd> gmaxwell: (relative, steady state and the economy adjusts as you say)
 329 2013-03-02 08:39:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Note how central banks are realizing negative interest rates aren't as crazy as they sound...
 330 2013-03-02 08:39:15 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: the only thing I know about Austria is that they freely gave their country to Hitler
 331 2013-03-02 08:39:18 * Luke-Jr runs from Godwin
 332 2013-03-02 08:39:23 <gmaxwell> petertodd: though on your work comments, pft. work is fun. People will work no matter what you do. There are interesting questions about which work will get done in what amounts, but the sheer fact of people working to create the things they need to survive can't really be risked by monetary policy, at least not over any longterm period
 333 2013-03-02 08:41:14 <muhoo> Luke-Jr: i was thinking of hayek, not the other guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_economics
 334 2013-03-02 08:42:01 <petertodd> gmaxwell: You've spent way too much time in the tech industry... there is so much work that we get people to do with money that wouldn't be done otherwise.
 335 2013-03-02 08:42:30 <petertodd> gmaxwell: All the psych research basically says that creative work is something you support, not buy, but for non-creative work traditional ideas of how to get people to do stuff are actually really effective.
 336 2013-03-02 08:42:39 <petertodd> gmaxwell: The bulk of work is non-creative. (for now)
 337 2013-03-02 08:43:52 <muhoo> we're living in the future. the trend is for work of the uncreative kind to be done by machines created by workers of the creative kind.
 338 2013-03-02 08:44:01 <gmaxwell> petertodd: there are plenty of communities that farm and build structures and take out trash as part of community maintance and not for economic gain. — now, I won't argue these places are more efficient, or even that the people in them are happier—  but I don't think the doomsday kind of view where you need to have people struggling for cash or work doesn't get done is valid either.
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 340 2013-03-02 08:44:55 <muhoo> which leaves a bunch of people without jobs. which wouldn't be a problem if jobs weren't required for income and survival.
 341 2013-03-02 08:45:05 <gmaxwell> and yea, I'm leary of slipping into ted-talk-syndrome, where I get to basically predicate my politics on post scarcity because I'm privledged enough to basically live in post scarcity myself.
 342 2013-03-02 08:45:07 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yes, but that's the key thing: communities. People function really well in <200 head communities where social pressures work, they don't function well when social pressures don't work, which is what economics did for us.
 343 2013-03-02 08:45:37 <MC1984> dunbars
 344 2013-03-02 08:45:39 <MC1984> number
 345 2013-03-02 08:45:49 <MC1984> or, why facebook is stupid
 346 2013-03-02 08:45:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: What can I say, my dad had the opportunity to visit the Soviet Union a few months before it collapsed in the early ninties... lets just say it left a hell of an impression.
 347 2013-03-02 08:45:56 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 348 2013-03-02 08:46:33 <muhoo> i've enjoyed reading dmitry orlov's accounts of what happened AFTER the collapse
 349 2013-03-02 08:46:54 <gmaxwell> petertodd: it's not just social pressure. I pick up trash in my community whenever I see it. No one asks me to or rewards me for doing it. (this is probably the first time I've mentioned doing it) People aren't total idiots and will self maintain too— to at least some extent— without pressure.
 350 2013-03-02 08:46:56 <petertodd> Ha, yes, they kinda fucked up that transition...
 351 2013-03-02 08:48:05 <petertodd> gmaxwell: *Some* extent. You do that because you live in a functioning community, so the social effects extend further than they normally would. We replace actual face-to-face interactions with implicit ones; fortunately for our brains either method works.
 352 2013-03-02 08:48:11 <gmaxwell> Technology can also give us ways to create small communities out of big ones. ... No one paid (directly) for the construction of Wikipedia.
 353 2013-03-02 08:48:51 <petertodd> ...and Bitcoin is mostly volunteer.
 354 2013-03-02 08:49:17 <gmaxwell> jury is still out on how effectively that's working out. :)
 355 2013-03-02 08:49:30 <petertodd> But again, all that rosy thinking was exactly what communism thought they could achieve, and they soon found out it breaks down in large groups.
 356 2013-03-02 08:50:21 <muhoo> funny,  i've been a few very capitalist startups that went sideways after hitting dunbar's number
 357 2013-03-02 08:50:30 <gmaxwell> yea, I should back up, I'm not trying to argue the superiority of anything else, I was just pointing out that a tight wage control loop is not the only tool in the tool belt, and perhaps not even that necessary of one.
 358 2013-03-02 08:50:56 <MC1984> muhoo uhuh
 359 2013-03-02 08:51:11 <petertodd> Disasterously so really. The Soviet Union was filled with people who displayed remarkable self-sufficiency and camaraderie, but they couldn't translate that into making sane decisions beyond smallish groups. Like factories that would produce baby shoes because they used the least material for the most quota number.
 360 2013-03-02 08:51:36 <MC1984> also ask yourslef why the best countries in the world are tiny
 361 2013-03-02 08:51:48 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Same :P
 362 2013-03-02 08:51:56 <muhoo> anyway, i'll take full responsibilty for causing this massive OT digression, and i apologize :-(
 363 2013-03-02 08:51:58 <gmaxwell> well thats a good lesson we've still not learned here in the US: people respond to incentives, often in preverse ways.
 364 2013-03-02 08:52:51 <gmaxwell> stuff like that is a reason I've cited about powerful AI scaring me— optimization processes produce all the freaky corner cases.
 365 2013-03-02 08:52:57 <petertodd> Yup, and what's worse, is people's ability to figure out the best ways for themselves to response to those incentives keeps developing. Business practices are subject to R&D just as much as anything else,.
 366 2013-03-02 08:53:15 <petertodd> It's incidentally why economics has so little predictive power...
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 369 2013-03-02 08:53:25 <petertodd> I think the halting problem is a very good analogy
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 371 2013-03-02 08:57:42 <abrkn> if i run 0.8 with -txindex=1 and without reindex, will only getrawtransaction work on new transactions?
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 373 2013-03-02 08:58:00 <petertodd> abrkn: *Unspent* transactions
 374 2013-03-02 08:58:06 <petertodd> New isn't really the right word
 375 2013-03-02 08:58:17 <abrkn> k
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 377 2013-03-02 09:01:52 <Luke-Jr> abrkn: -txindex is only a valid option *with* reindex
 378 2013-03-02 09:04:40 <abrkn> ok
 379 2013-03-02 09:04:45 <DarkGhost`> how come I can't sendtoaddress <address> .0001
 380 2013-03-02 09:04:51 <DarkGhost`> it saysI need a txfee of .0005
 381 2013-03-02 09:04:59 <DarkGhost`> so even if I try to sendi out .00001 it still says txfee
 382 2013-03-02 09:05:35 <Luke-Jr> because you're not supposed to flood
 383 2013-03-02 09:05:42 <DarkGhost`> so I can't send it?
 384 2013-03-02 09:05:48 <Luke-Jr> send more
 385 2013-03-02 09:06:23 <gmaxwell> you can— with a txfee.
 386 2013-03-02 09:09:31 <DarkGhost`> I only have .0001
 387 2013-03-02 09:09:40 <DarkGhost`> what ocmmand do I do to send that with a txfee?
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 409 2013-03-02 10:20:28 <sturles> DarkGhost`: You obviously can't add a txfee if you only have 0.0001 BTC.  It's stuck.  Add more if the 0.34 cents are important to you.
 410 2013-03-02 10:21:15 <MC1984> can you really not get zero fee txn mined anymore?
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 414 2013-03-02 10:23:03 <gmaxwell> MC1984: has nothing to do with non-zero fees and everything to do with dust outputs.
 415 2013-03-02 10:23:22 <MC1984> oh right
 416 2013-03-02 10:23:25 <gmaxwell> DarkGhost`: get more coin or give away your private keys.
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 439 2013-03-02 10:58:34 <abrkn> what are the advantages of upgrading to 0.8 if still using txindex?
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 446 2013-03-02 11:06:33 <Luke-Jr> abrkn: txindex uses a bit more disk space, but it doesn't negate any of the advantages of 0.8
 447 2013-03-02 11:07:32 <abrkn> ok
 448 2013-03-02 11:13:34 <muhoo> ah, that's the chart i was looking for: http://blockchain.info/charts/tx-trade-ratio
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 452 2013-03-02 11:21:47 <abrkn> ok, upgrade complete. i wonder how long to catch up
 453 2013-03-02 11:21:53 <abrkn> 112068
 454 2013-03-02 11:21:56 <abrkn> ,,getheight
 455 2013-03-02 11:21:56 <gribble> Error: "getheight" is not a valid command.
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 461 2013-03-02 12:07:01 <TD> 1mb of unconfirmed transactions
 462 2013-03-02 12:07:50 <TD> back down to 760kb
 463 2013-03-02 12:08:50 <HM> sec1 is a nice easygoing document
 464 2013-03-02 12:09:02 <HM> scary how ecdsa is buggared if your rng is even slightly biased
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 467 2013-03-02 12:26:52 <tigger0> why do txin's reference a txout with <transactionid,input>?
 468 2013-03-02 12:27:12 <tigger0> if the utxo set is indexed by scriptPubKey, why doesn't it reference scriptPubKey?
 469 2013-03-02 12:27:59 <tigger0> utxo set could have this hierarchy: [scriptPubKey][value][0][transaction][vout]
 470 2013-03-02 12:28:58 <tigger0> if given two identical chains and the same value, the same outputs are selected during spending
 471 2013-03-02 12:30:21 <tigger0> for one if you receive lots of transactions, the transaction itself would be much smaller since you wouldn't have the redundancy
 472 2013-03-02 12:30:30 <tigger0> (your transaction to spend them, that is)
 473 2013-03-02 12:30:47 <gmaxwell> tigger0: because the system tracks txouts and they must be unique for accounting. What you're describing would make it trivial to have duplicate txids for example.
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 475 2013-03-02 12:31:19 <gmaxwell> tigger0: if bitcoin is used correctly every transaction pays to a new address, it wouldn't make the transactions any smaller to do what you're describing.
 476 2013-03-02 12:31:32 <tigger0> ah right
 477 2013-03-02 12:32:40 <tigger0> well what i'm describing is allowing the vin to simply describe the scriptPubKey (which all txin's can be identified from), the value claimed, and the scriptSig for each unique account
 478 2013-03-02 12:33:00 <tigger0> then you don't have to construct a vin with 500 txin's to claim 500BTC split in 1 BTC increments
 479 2013-03-02 12:33:15 <tigger0> also this could make pay-to-policy easier perhaps
 480 2013-03-02 12:33:38 <gmaxwell> Such a transaction should normally never exist, because there should not have been 500 txins with a common scrippubkey.
 481 2013-03-02 12:33:44 <gmaxwell> That implies address reuse.
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 483 2013-03-02 12:34:41 <tigger0> i understand i'm just exploring the case, i guess unique addresses do make that pretty unnecessary
 484 2013-03-02 12:35:30 <gmaxwell> In any case, for better or worse the system doesn't work around "accounts" it has no concept of them. It just tracks the coins themselves.
 485 2013-03-02 12:35:40 <gmaxwell> I'm sure with enough alterations something like your describing could be made to work... without thinking about it more I couldn't guess the advantages/disadvantages.
 486 2013-03-02 12:37:01 <gmaxwell> Most people who show up thinking in terms of accounts have their thinking blown up by multisignature transaction or transactions that can be satisfied multiple or unknown ways (e.g. pay to the provider of a solution to a puzzle) ... but what you're saying doesn't actually sound incompatible with any of that.
 487 2013-03-02 12:37:30 <tigger0> right
 488 2013-03-02 12:37:56 <tigger0> it's sort of like an alternative vin, which allows the verifying process to select the txin's and apply a single scriptSig among them, instead of describing them explicitly or perhaps redundantly
 489 2013-03-02 12:37:58 <gmaxwell> It would make the validity of the transactions conditional on the network, which might cause oddness, but I can't think of what.
 490 2013-03-02 12:38:21 <tigger0> doesn't the mempool already account somewhat on conditions?
 491 2013-03-02 12:38:57 <tigger0> i'm trying to think if this would mess up re-orgs
 492 2013-03-02 12:39:02 <gmaxwell> no- mempool really has nothing to do with what goes into blocks. It does influence what gets relayed, but you can sort of think of bitcoin's p2p and blockchain as seperate systems.
 493 2013-03-02 12:39:46 <gmaxwell> tigger0: well here is one reason it would be bad— it would be hard to predict which transactions would be conditionally invalid based on a payment to you becoming invalid.
 494 2013-03-02 12:40:14 <gmaxwell> multiple transactions could even become invalid, if you allowed partial value consumption.
 495 2013-03-02 12:40:27 <tigger0> as a sort of 0 confirmation flaw?
 496 2013-03-02 12:41:06 <gmaxwell> right, you zero confirm spend a payment you just got.. but instead a payment you made previously with fully confirmed balances is what gets rejected by the network.
 497 2013-03-02 12:41:08 <tigger0> i guess if you're confused on conditional invalidity, or you even have the difficulty predicting it, you can wait until a confirmation or two
 498 2013-03-02 12:41:28 <gmaxwell> but that whole address must wait, not just a single transaction.
 499 2013-03-02 12:41:30 <tigger0> but this would subject that to every node
 500 2013-03-02 12:41:34 <tigger0> yea
 501 2013-03-02 12:42:23 <tigger0> well this would screw up re-orgs anyway
 502 2013-03-02 12:42:31 <tigger0> i assume bitcoin does some sort of reverse delta thing
 503 2013-03-02 12:42:52 <gmaxwell> well, it's late for me, but I'm suspecting that it could work, the tradeoffs would be slightly different. It would also encourage address reuse (by making it more efficient) which would greatly diminish the privacy properties of the system (which are already really thin and depend on the fragile pseudoanonymity)
 504 2013-03-02 12:42:54 <tigger0> if it tried to reverse a transaction, because the transaction is using a selector of sorts, it depends on the state of the utxo's at that point in the chiain
 505 2013-03-02 12:42:56 <tigger0> chain*
 506 2013-03-02 12:43:02 <tigger0> which isn't encoded in the transaction anymore
 507 2013-03-02 12:43:06 <tigger0> and yeah
 508 2013-03-02 12:43:09 <tigger0> cool well thanks
 509 2013-03-02 12:43:11 <gmaxwell> yes, but we record what was changed.
 510 2013-03-02 12:43:23 <tigger0> oh really? ok cool
 511 2013-03-02 12:43:54 <gmaxwell> so that we can undo the changes during a reorg, so that could be surrmounted.. though a simplier implementation that didn't record the reverse change (e.g. ours prior to 0.8) wouldn't have handled that well.
 512 2013-03-02 12:45:01 <gmaxwell> (the blockchain is forward differences, bitcoin .8 nodes record reverse differences— this lets us do 100% of the validation using just an index of txouts, without reference to the forward-differences except during reorg and when a new block is recieved)
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 520 2013-03-02 13:16:27 <sipa> Luke-Jr: -txindex may be specified at any time, but if it is, and its value doesn't match the existing db, it will refuse to start up
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 550 2013-03-02 14:28:03 <iwilcox> What assumptions does blockchain.info have to make to name the 'from' address of a transaction, that the qt client isn't prepared to make?  I understand from elsewhere that it's a shaky assumption but I can't wrap my head around why.
 551 2013-03-02 14:28:36 <iwilcox> A transaction has to refer back to a previous one to satisfy its script.
 552 2013-03-02 14:29:07 <iwilcox> The previous one, provided it's simple, included a hashed public key (address)
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 555 2013-03-02 14:30:51 <iwilcox> The reference back to the previous transaction is a signature, but presumably to generate the new txn the client, and all nodes the new txn passes through, have to be able to unambiguously resolve it to a specific txn earlier in the chain.
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 558 2013-03-02 14:34:39 <sipa> iwilcox: what if all prevouts had a script that don't match an address template?
 559 2013-03-02 14:34:55 <sipa> what if the different prevouts belong to different people?
 560 2013-03-02 14:35:34 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 561 2013-03-02 14:35:35 <iwilcox> Does the first one fall under breaking "provided it's simple"?
 562 2013-03-02 14:35:35 <sipa> what if the prevout belonged to an e-wallet, not directly associated with the account of the one actually sending?
 563 2013-03-02 14:36:20 <iwilcox> Second one, blockchain.info does list multiple previous outputs
 564 2013-03-02 14:36:32 monkeynipples has joined
 565 2013-03-02 14:36:34 <iwilcox> Third one I don't understand :(
 566 2013-03-02 14:37:00 BTCOxygen is now known as Guest698832
 567 2013-03-02 14:37:08 <sipa> oh you just mean listing prevouts l, not really defining a "from address"
 568 2013-03-02 14:37:56 <sipa> well the only real problem with that imho, is that it gives the false impression that bitcoin does transactions between addresses
 569 2013-03-02 14:38:44 <iwilcox> There's a compromise between user-friendliness and technical accuracy, sure
 570 2013-03-02 14:39:07 <iwilcox> I was pleased and intrigued to find out about scripting :)
 571 2013-03-02 14:39:22 <sipa> the third one: if i have an account at webwallet E, and i send some coins out, it will not necessarily use coins that were previously sent to any of my own addresses at the site
 572 2013-03-02 14:40:00 <iwilcox> Ah, yeah.  That could confuse users.
 573 2013-03-02 14:40:15 <sipa> so the receiver may think all prevout addresses belong to me, but sending them back will not result in crediting my account
 574 2013-03-02 14:40:39 <sipa> so imho the only correct answer is that bitcoin transactions do not have from addresses
 575 2013-03-02 14:40:50 <sipa> the consume, produce and assign coins
 576 2013-03-02 14:40:54 <sipa> the
 577 2013-03-02 14:40:58 <sipa> theY
 578 2013-03-02 14:41:27 <sipa> and if you need a refund address, ask for one
 579 2013-03-02 14:42:34 <iwilcox> That's probably the most compelling argument I've heard so far.
 580 2013-03-02 14:42:47 <iwilcox> Thanks
 581 2013-03-02 14:43:04 <iwilcox> (s/heard/actually been able to understand/) :)
 582 2013-03-02 14:43:11 <sipa> yw
 583 2013-03-02 14:43:24 <CodeShark> you can have a metaprotocol that encodes the "from" address
 584 2013-03-02 14:43:41 <sipa> yes, the payment protocol does that
 585 2013-03-02 14:43:52 <iwilcox> I see there's space for a note in scripts.
 586 2013-03-02 14:44:05 <sipa> there is not
 587 2013-03-02 14:44:09 <iwilcox> Oh.
 588 2013-03-02 14:44:23 <sipa> you can put anything in scripts of course
 589 2013-03-02 14:44:55 <sipa> but the only data that belongs on the p2p betwork and in the block chain is data that the world needs to verify your transaction
 590 2013-03-02 14:45:02 <sipa> anything else i consider abuse
 591 2013-03-02 14:45:09 <CodeShark> no poetry? :)
 592 2013-03-02 14:45:28 <CodeShark> no ascii art of bernanke?
 593 2013-03-02 14:45:50 <sipa> as it is more efficient, faster and cheaper to communicate that data directly between receiver and sender negotiating the transaction
 594 2013-03-02 14:46:39 <iwilcox> OK, I guess I meant "you could abuse OP_DROP"
 595 2013-03-02 14:46:54 <sipa> in theory you cab
 596 2013-03-02 14:47:08 <CodeShark> or you can even send zero bitcoins and construct arbitrary outputs
 597 2013-03-02 14:48:01 <CodeShark> I mean, construct zero bitcoin outputs
 598 2013-03-02 14:48:13 <CodeShark> you still might need fees for your transaction to get relayed and included in a block
 599 2013-03-02 14:48:29 <sipa> zero value outputs are nonstandard
 600 2013-03-02 14:49:05 <CodeShark> as in bitcoind won't relay them?
 601 2013-03-02 14:49:10 <sipa> indeed
 602 2013-03-02 14:49:21 <CodeShark> you can still use .00000001 btc outputs, then :)
 603 2013-03-02 14:50:20 <iwilcox> Is the 3xxxx prefix effectively an optimisation?  As in, unless it's 3xxxx you can write faster, simpler code to execute the script?
 604 2013-03-02 14:50:35 <sipa> ?
 605 2013-03-02 14:50:46 <iwilcox> Multisig addresses
 606 2013-03-02 14:50:48 <CodeShark> you need a conditional either way
 607 2013-03-02 14:50:49 <sipa> 3xxxx is a pay to scripthash address
 608 2013-03-02 14:50:53 <Goonie> Is Blockexplorer down? https://blockexplorer.com/searchgo/fa588a11
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 610 2013-03-02 14:51:14 <sipa> p2sh is not the same as multisig
 611 2013-03-02 14:51:28 <CodeShark> multisig is implemented using p2sh, no?
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 614 2013-03-02 14:51:37 <iwilcox> Oh.  I'm misinterpreting https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address#Multi-signature_addresses then
 615 2013-03-02 14:51:47 <sipa> depends what you mean by implemented
 616 2013-03-02 14:51:51 terrytibbs__ is now known as terry
 617 2013-03-02 14:52:19 <sipa> i can create a non-p2sh multisig transaction now, and it will be relayed fine
 618 2013-03-02 14:52:33 <sipa> and verified by the network
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 620 2013-03-02 14:52:53 <sipa> the wallet in bitcoind can only do p2sh multisig
 621 2013-03-02 14:52:59 <MC1984> any way to watch txn relay on you node live?
 622 2013-03-02 14:53:05 <CodeShark> that's what I meant, sipa
 623 2013-03-02 14:53:15 <sipa> tail -f debug.log
 624 2013-03-02 14:54:03 <MC1984> that just logs blocks and other misc, not txn relay individually?
 625 2013-03-02 14:54:13 <sipa> yes
 626 2013-03-02 14:54:27 <jgarzik> It logs txn relay individually, where your node participates
 627 2013-03-02 14:54:33 <sipa> tail -f debug.log | fgrep tx
 628 2013-03-02 14:54:50 <sipa> or something like that if you want it filtered
 629 2013-03-02 14:55:01 <CodeShark> can you filter a stream like that?
 630 2013-03-02 14:55:01 <jgarzik> it logs when you receive a tx not yet seen, when you relay a TX to others, and it logs local transaction creation
 631 2013-03-02 14:55:08 <CodeShark> I mean a pipe
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 633 2013-03-02 14:55:19 <sipa> how else?
 634 2013-03-02 14:55:26 <jgarzik> that's what grep does
 635 2013-03-02 14:55:47 <MC1984> oh is it the ctxmempool stuff
 636 2013-03-02 14:55:52 <CodeShark> yes, I see it works
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 639 2013-03-02 14:57:25 <sipa> jgarzik: i keep getting errors/crashes with your cnetmessage stuff
 640 2013-03-02 14:57:35 <sipa> i don't understand it
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 645 2013-03-02 15:04:03 <jgarzik> sipa: Yah, I remember your same report from a couple months ago :/
 646 2013-03-02 15:04:31 * jgarzik hasn't yet rejoined the dev community (anywhere), so I haven't had time to look at it and think
 647 2013-03-02 15:04:54 <jgarzik> at the time, it seemed quite strange a report, but reproducible is reproducible.
 648 2013-03-02 15:05:08 <jgarzik> Messing with binary packets can lead to problems if not 100% perfect, clearly
 649 2013-03-02 15:10:12 <sipa> it's the same problem as before: CNetMessage destructors are called on already freed or even uninitialized data
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 678 2013-03-02 16:46:53 <jaakkos> do nodes relay double spends if they think they are double spends?
 679 2013-03-02 16:47:02 <petertodd> no
 680 2013-03-02 16:47:04 <sipa> no
 681 2013-03-02 16:48:13 <jaakkos> i was thinking, it prevents a seller from seeing that the coins they received were double spent, until the double spend ends in a block
 682 2013-03-02 16:48:46 <jaakkos> otherwise they could see that there was a fraud in seconds
 683 2013-03-02 16:49:05 <petertodd> Then ask blockchain.info for a feed from their invasive monitoring network, or stop accepting zero-conf transactions.
 684 2013-03-02 16:50:07 <petertodd> Remember, if I were evil, I'd start a pool that allowed you to submit transactions directly to me, and I'd write code that replaced transactions every time I found a different one with a higher fee.
 685 2013-03-02 16:50:45 <petertodd> Or heck, not even evil, just profit driven.
 686 2013-03-02 16:51:27 <sipa> and the only defense against that, is probably making deals with miners yourself, not to do that to your transaction
 687 2013-03-02 16:51:35 <sipa> you, or a payment processor...
 688 2013-03-02 16:52:45 <Diablo-D3> jaakkos: what you said doesn't make sense
 689 2013-03-02 16:52:56 <petertodd> Yup, and the best thing about this plan, is the only entities negatively affected are, well, Alpaca Socks of course. Yeah, socks.
 690 2013-03-02 16:53:17 <Diablo-D3> lets say I send a tx
 691 2013-03-02 16:53:24 <Diablo-D3> and then the network goes into a fork split situation
 692 2013-03-02 16:53:33 <Diablo-D3> which happens naturally from time to time
 693 2013-03-02 16:53:56 rbecker is now known as RBecker
 694 2013-03-02 16:54:09 <Diablo-D3> a seller trying to detect frauds would think my tx is fraud because it now appears in two splits in two different blocks
 695 2013-03-02 16:54:33 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: No, because the transaction is the same each time.
 696 2013-03-02 16:55:08 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: Proof of double spend is two signatures on the same transaction inputs, with different transaction outputs.
 697 2013-03-02 16:55:21 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: yeah but my client didn't resend
 698 2013-03-02 16:55:34 <Diablo-D3> its the same tx that two third parties mined simultaneuously
 699 2013-03-02 16:55:35 <sipa> Diablo-D3: irrelevant
 700 2013-03-02 16:55:49 <sipa> it's still the same tx, which doesn't conflict with itself
 701 2013-03-02 16:56:01 <Diablo-D3> ahh
 702 2013-03-02 16:56:15 abrkn has joined
 703 2013-03-02 16:56:19 <Diablo-D3> so how do you detect its a malicious tx?
 704 2013-03-02 16:56:30 <sipa> if it's a different tx that spends the same input
 705 2013-03-02 16:56:30 <Diablo-D3> btw, there really should be a lengthy paper written about subtle stuff like this
 706 2013-03-02 16:56:34 <petertodd> sipa: Well, technically it can, if a fancy SIGHASH is used, and someone later added an additional input.
 707 2013-03-02 16:56:39 <Diablo-D3> the original satoshi whitepaper doesn't cover it
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 709 2013-03-02 16:56:46 <petertodd> sipa: (keeping the output values the same)
 710 2013-03-02 16:57:07 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: The satoshi paper is just a rough sketch - lots of the system as it stands isn't in there. Scripting for instance.
 711 2013-03-02 16:57:22 <sipa> petertodd: yeah, and tx replacement probably should be taken into account as well (though that implies one of both is non-final)
 712 2013-03-02 16:57:28 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: thats what Im saying
 713 2013-03-02 16:57:38 <Diablo-D3> theres lots of interesting shit that just isn't written down anywhere
 714 2013-03-02 16:57:41 <sipa> petertodd: and signature malleability also complicates things
 715 2013-03-02 16:57:51 <sipa> (though that should be fixed independently)
 716 2013-03-02 16:58:48 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: So much shit that the statement "the original satoshi whitepaper doesn't cover it" is not interesting. :P
 717 2013-03-02 16:59:02 <petertodd> sipa: Yeah, that !@#$ malleability...
 718 2013-03-02 16:59:33 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: well, it used to be a rule in here to tell people to read the paper
 719 2013-03-02 16:59:44 <Diablo-D3> although that was like 2-3 years ago =/
 720 2013-03-02 16:59:49 <sipa> it still is
 721 2013-03-02 16:59:58 <sipa> for getting a basic understanding of the system
 722 2013-03-02 17:00:30 <Diablo-D3> btw, why was signature malleability allowed?
 723 2013-03-02 17:00:51 <sipa> because there are insufficient measures to prevent it
 724 2013-03-02 17:00:54 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: Because satoshi screwed up.
 725 2013-03-02 17:01:14 <Diablo-D3> ahh
 726 2013-03-02 17:01:27 <Diablo-D3> is it too late to require immutable signatures?
 727 2013-03-02 17:01:33 <sipa> no
 728 2013-03-02 17:01:40 <sipa> just a softfork
 729 2013-03-02 17:01:48 <Diablo-D3> maybe worth switching to 0.9.0 over?
 730 2013-03-02 17:01:57 <petertodd> sipa: Yeah, what's the current best known approach?
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 732 2013-03-02 17:03:50 <Diablo-D3> because like in peter's example of fancy SIGHASH
 733 2013-03-02 17:04:07 <Diablo-D3> Im not sure how that stuff is used, but maybe require previous version of that sig to be the input for the new version?
 734 2013-03-02 17:04:17 <Diablo-D3> it keeps it strictly versioned in the chain and thus transactional
 735 2013-03-02 17:05:07 <sipa> petertodd: define a nVersion=2 transaction which has extra rules (no superfluous scriptSig items, signature s value is even, ...), make a client that creates such transactions, poke client authors to do the same, convince miners to switch to a client that enforces the nVersion=2 rules, and at a much later date, when enough miners have switched, enforce the nVersion=2 transaction rules; and at an even mucher later date, make nVersion=1 transactions...
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 737 2013-03-02 17:05:13 <sipa> illegal
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 739 2013-03-02 17:05:56 <Diablo-D3> sipa: you forgot one
 740 2013-03-02 17:06:10 <Diablo-D3> allow version 1 transactions to be legal after the change date as long as they comply with the new rules
 741 2013-03-02 17:06:12 <petertodd> sipa: Ok, so it's likely to be done by just making stronger scriptSig rules?
 742 2013-03-02 17:06:30 <sipa> petertodd: i am very unsure whether this can be pushed for
 743 2013-03-02 17:06:31 <petertodd> sipa: Also, I thought nodes won't relay nVersion=2
 744 2013-03-02 17:06:41 <sipa> even gavin dislikes requiring s=even
 745 2013-03-02 17:06:48 <petertodd> sipa: Gavin seemed to be thinking of something broader
 746 2013-03-02 17:07:02 <petertodd> sipa: What about odd Gavin?
 747 2013-03-02 17:07:29 <sipa> well, i'm in favor of redoing the script language altogether, and use an OP_EVAL like system to switch to it softfork-wise
 748 2013-03-02 17:07:49 <sipa> but that doesn't make the problem go away for transactions spending old outputs
 749 2013-03-02 17:08:11 CaptainBlaze has joined
 750 2013-03-02 17:08:28 <petertodd> sipa: Yeah, I've got a bunch of stuff I think would be nice too; in #bitcoin-wizards we even came up with a whole AST format idea...
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 754 2013-03-02 17:16:16 <sipa> petertodd: i know :)
 755 2013-03-02 17:16:46 <petertodd> sipa: You're so modest.
 756 2013-03-02 17:16:52 <petertodd> (turns out sipa came up with the idea)
 757 2013-03-02 17:17:09 <petertodd> (well, roconner, but he brought it up)
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 773 2013-03-02 17:41:55 <muhoo> heh, wizards. is #bitcoin-wizards logged anywhere?
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 785 2013-03-02 18:09:36 <HM> muhoo: i hope not
 786 2013-03-02 18:09:42 <HM> i wouldn't want my ignorance archived
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 790 2013-03-02 18:11:52 <muhoo> TD: heh, .getPendingPeers -> 5798
 791 2013-03-02 18:11:56 <muhoo> and counting
 792 2013-03-02 18:12:03 <TD> hmm
 793 2013-03-02 18:12:08 <TD> not good ....
 794 2013-03-02 18:12:17 <muhoo> it keeps adding the same peerover and over again. i should probably fix this
 795 2013-03-02 18:13:03 <muhoo> then again, let me doublecheck that it's not anything i'm doing dumb.
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 797 2013-03-02 18:16:07 <muhoo> TD: nm, i'm an idiot. i have an onPeerDisconnected event that attempts to reconnect, totalyl forgotten i'd done that :-(
 798 2013-03-02 18:16:21 <TD> not good ….ah :(
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 800 2013-03-02 18:18:09 <muhoo> yeah, working on a complex project an hour at a time here and there, plus early alzheimer's, not a good combo
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 811 2013-03-02 18:43:38 <phantomcircuit> muhoo, you really dont want to do that
 812 2013-03-02 18:43:39 <phantomcircuit> ok
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 833 2013-03-02 19:27:46 <xjrn> i hope by the end of the day to have an aperapi test of bouncycastle and maybe phatk kernels
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 869 2013-03-02 20:42:20 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: so I finally had a few hours to just sit and think about priority scheduling yesterday evening...
 870 2013-03-02 20:42:48 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I dont believe people splitting coins for future priority is an issue
 871 2013-03-02 20:42:57 <BlueMatt> (with any reasonable priority scheduling system)
 872 2013-03-02 20:43:26 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: the issue is in order for that first split to be accepted, you will have to pay a fee anyway
 873 2013-03-02 20:44:15 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: its not as much a question of waiting for acceptance because your tx wont even be relayed if your priority is really bad
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 875 2013-03-02 20:45:14 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: there is ofcourse a possibility that you could pay a lower fee than you would have to in the future, but I would argue that thats actually not gonna be possible
 876 2013-03-02 20:45:26 <BlueMatt> because fee is per size, not per priority
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 878 2013-03-02 20:45:58 <BlueMatt> so your split is going to be fee-expensive due to its size, whereas not splitting means you should be able to create a significantly smaller tx in the future
 879 2013-03-02 20:48:06 <rdponticelli1> BlueMatt: But a clever splitting could help in addressing some anonymity issues, right?
 880 2013-03-02 20:48:46 <BlueMatt> no
 881 2013-03-02 20:48:58 <BlueMatt> well...maybe but priority scheduling should discourage that
 882 2013-03-02 20:49:04 <BlueMatt> (ie you should have to pay a fee to do so)
 883 2013-03-02 20:49:18 <rdponticelli1> Indeed
 884 2013-03-02 20:49:33 <rdponticelli1> What would be fair...
 885 2013-03-02 20:49:59 <BlueMatt> that is up to miners
 886 2013-03-02 20:50:06 <BlueMatt> and competition
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 892 2013-03-02 20:57:42 <muhoo> well that was easy. i just created a static PeerDiscovery for my test network, which just returns two static ip addresses of my test nodes. PeerGroup seems to like it just fine, and looks like it does its own autoreconnecting. nice.
 893 2013-03-02 20:58:37 <muhoo> that's 3 hours of bikeshedding... complete!
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 911 2013-03-02 21:49:53 <sipa> implemented a field multiplication in secp256k1 (2^256-0x1000003D1) in pure C (using __int128 though), taking 48ns
 912 2013-03-02 21:50:06 <sipa> no idea if that's enough to compete with openssl's montgomery mult
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 918 2013-03-02 21:52:51 <nanotube> fyi, looks like google summer of code is on for 2013. looks like the deadline for mentoring organization applications is March 29. http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/events/google/gsoc2013
 919 2013-03-02 21:53:25 <BlueMatt> do we have a project we want done?
 920 2013-03-02 21:53:49 <BlueMatt> well, ok, obviously yes, but do we have someone who wants to sign up as a mentor?
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 924 2013-03-02 22:05:38 <wladston> I'm also looking for mentoring btw
 925 2013-03-02 22:06:24 <wladston> wanted to learn how to make a light SPV client with bloom filters
 926 2013-03-02 22:07:28 <nanotube> BlueMatt: gavinandresen has been saying that the best thing we could get paid work for is improving the test suite....
 927 2013-03-02 22:07:33 <muhoo> wladston: there's bitcoinj :-)
 928 2013-03-02 22:07:44 <nanotube> as to who wants to sign up as a mentor... that's a different question. :)
 929 2013-03-02 22:07:55 <nanotube> would have to be someone who's familiar with the current state of the testing code
 930 2013-03-02 22:08:00 <wladston> muhoo: ins't bitcoinj a library ?
 931 2013-03-02 22:08:00 <nanotube> if we go for the testing side
 932 2013-03-02 22:08:15 <muhoo> wladston: indeed, and there's an android app built on it
 933 2013-03-02 22:08:42 <wladston> muhoo: I'm in need of something that I can use with rpc-calls from a webapp
 934 2013-03-02 22:09:06 <muhoo> wladston: i'm actually using bitcionj as the back end for a web app
 935 2013-03-02 22:09:18 <BlueMatt> probably just use bitcoinj....depending on your motivation
 936 2013-03-02 22:09:35 <muhoo> it's pretty good for that. very lightweight, runnign it now on a 500MB RAM VPS
 937 2013-03-02 22:10:46 <muhoo> wladston: and since it's jvm, you can write in whatever you like, jruby, jpython, etc. i'm using clojure for this one.
 938 2013-03-02 22:11:36 <wladston> muhoo: how ??? would you be kind to explain ? :)
 939 2013-03-02 22:12:24 <muhoo> wladston: how what, specifically?
 940 2013-03-02 22:12:36 <wladston> muhoo: are you using json-rpc ?
 941 2013-03-02 22:13:00 <wladston> what's the name of the app ?
 942 2013-03-02 22:13:18 <muhoo> heh, it's not even named. i'm taking an enormouse amount of time.
 943 2013-03-02 22:13:25 <BlueMatt> nanotube: whats up with gribble?
 944 2013-03-02 22:13:30 <BlueMatt> ;;ping
 945 2013-03-02 22:13:30 <gribble> pong
 946 2013-03-02 22:14:23 <nanotube> BlueMatt: nothing... seems to be working just fine
 947 2013-03-02 22:14:24 <nanotube> ?
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 949 2013-03-02 22:15:39 <BlueMatt> nanotube: ahh...my internet appeared to have cut out for like 5 minutes...
 950 2013-03-02 22:16:03 <nanotube> ah ok
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 952 2013-03-02 22:16:56 <BlueMatt> nanotube: well, that would probably mean me...though Im not sure I could qualify as a mentor (let alone have the time for the summer...)
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 955 2013-03-02 22:18:19 <BlueMatt> nanotube: still, it wouldnt take much for any of the other devs to get caught up with all (well...ok not so much) thats going on with testing, so really anyone could do it, Id think
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 960 2013-03-02 22:33:17 <doe> hi. i am running ./bitcoind. generated an address, then used coinbase.com to send 0.5 btc to that address. coinbase indicates 6 confirmations, but i don't see it in my wallet via ./bitcoind getbalance
 961 2013-03-02 22:33:25 <doe> what did i do wrong?
 962 2013-03-02 22:33:38 <BlueMatt> how many blocks does bitcoind have
 963 2013-03-02 22:33:41 <BlueMatt> (getinfo)
 964 2013-03-02 22:33:57 <doe> 210695
 965 2013-03-02 22:34:00 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,blocks
 966 2013-03-02 22:34:00 <gribble> 223955
 967 2013-03-02 22:34:06 <BlueMatt> wait till you have that many and then see
 968 2013-03-02 22:34:21 <doe> oh wow
 969 2013-03-02 22:34:28 <doe> very cool -- thank you
 970 2013-03-02 22:34:38 <doe> where did you get that number?
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 972 2013-03-02 22:34:47 <BlueMatt> that is the current number of blocks
 973 2013-03-02 22:34:48 <doe> up-to-date client?
 974 2013-03-02 22:34:51 <BlueMatt> (gribble is obv a bot)
 975 2013-03-02 22:35:15 <BlueMatt> dont know where he pulls that from, probably bbe, but any up-to-date client that runs 24/7 should have that many blockx
 976 2013-03-02 22:35:16 <BlueMatt> s
 977 2013-03-02 22:35:29 <doe> got it. cool.
 978 2013-03-02 22:35:34 <doe> whew :)
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 981 2013-03-02 22:36:18 <Shealan> Is there a place in L4 where you specify custom 404 pages?
 982 2013-03-02 22:36:25 <Shealan> or error pages in general?
 983 2013-03-02 22:36:26 <doe> vernacular: "bitcoin" is the "unit" (e.g. "dollar" is a "unit") and "satoshi" is the "subunit" (e.g. "cent" is a "subunit") ?
 984 2013-03-02 22:37:00 <sipa> doe: indeed
 985 2013-03-02 22:37:09 <sipa> a satoshi is 1/10^8 of a bitcoin
 986 2013-03-02 22:37:23 <doe> and 100_000_000 satoshi make 1 bitcoin
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 988 2013-03-02 22:37:48 <doe> oh... exponential notation not my strong side
 989 2013-03-02 22:37:51 <doe> :)
 990 2013-03-02 22:37:57 <doe> but it is good to be exposed to it
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 992 2013-03-02 22:46:04 <doe> maybe here: https://blockexplorer.com/q/getblockcount :)
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 994 2013-03-02 22:47:55 <sipa> that's what ,,bc,blocks fetches, i think
 995 2013-03-02 22:47:56 <gribble> 223957
 996 2013-03-02 22:48:03 <doe> lol
 997 2013-03-02 22:49:00 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
 998 2013-03-02 22:49:02 <gribble> 31005.21299985471
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1000 2013-03-02 22:52:26 <nanotube> BlueMatt: indeed. i guess just gotta discuss to see if anyone's willing to do it...
1001 2013-03-02 22:54:17 <Luke-Jr> nanotube: how much is involved in mentoring?
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1006 2013-03-02 23:06:04 <nanotube> Luke-Jr: i am not sure, i don't have personal experience with this. gmaxwell has mentioned that he does, though.
1007 2013-03-02 23:07:04 <nanotube> there are probably docs about it on the gsoc site and elsewhere. at the very least, we'd need to come up with a relatively-detailed project plan, and then guide the student(s) along to completion.
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1019 2013-03-02 23:32:13 <fatAgnes> how do i compile bt-qt from source?
1020 2013-03-02 23:32:37 <sipa> download it
1021 2013-03-02 23:32:41 <sipa> qmake
1022 2013-03-02 23:32:42 <sipa> make
1023 2013-03-02 23:32:54 <fatAgnes> in windwos?
1024 2013-03-02 23:33:11 <sipa> no ide
1025 2013-03-02 23:33:30 <sipa> doing a cross-compile under ubuntu will be easier
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1027 2013-03-02 23:36:12 <swhitt> there's a homebrew keg for bitcoin-qt, bitcoind and armory
1028 2013-03-02 23:38:09 <fatAgnes> sorry, but how did they make the windwos version?
1029 2013-03-02 23:38:20 <fatAgnes> I think I will make a c# client, better
1030 2013-03-02 23:38:24 <fatAgnes> how about mining
1031 2013-03-02 23:38:30 <fatAgnes> a client is also a miner?
1032 2013-03-02 23:38:35 <sipa> fatAgnes: the windows version is crosscompiled on linux
1033 2013-03-02 23:38:49 <fatAgnes> fuck!
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1035 2013-03-02 23:38:58 <sipa> and writing a full client from scratch probably takes at least a few months
1036 2013-03-02 23:39:19 <sipa> not that it's that much code, but there are several intricate things you need to understand
1037 2013-03-02 23:39:53 <sipa> and the reference client doesn't really have mining code it (except for a slow, non-pool-capable, non-optimized, CPU-only version)
1038 2013-03-02 23:40:29 <sipa> as most mining these days is done by GPUs or FPGAs, and soon probably ASICs, you need very specialized programs anyway
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