1 2013-03-03 00:01:17 coolsa_ has joined
2 2013-03-03 00:01:17 discrete has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3 2013-03-03 00:01:59 OneMiner has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
4 2013-03-03 00:03:55 Hasimir has joined
5 2013-03-03 00:03:55 Hasimir is now known as Guest748
6 2013-03-03 00:03:55 coolsa has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
7 2013-03-03 00:06:07 coolsa_ is now known as coolsa
8 2013-03-03 00:06:07 coolsa is now known as coolsa_
9 2013-03-03 00:06:07 coolsa_ is now known as coolsa
10 2013-03-03 00:15:24 HM2 has quit ()
11 2013-03-03 00:19:51 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
12 2013-03-03 00:19:52 Diablo-D3 has joined
13 2013-03-03 00:24:21 pooler has quit (Changing host)
14 2013-03-03 00:26:40 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
15 2013-03-03 00:26:42 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
16 2013-03-03 00:28:55 techlife has joined
17 2013-03-03 00:28:55 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
18 2013-03-03 00:31:06 <fatAgnes> i guess these programs are not open source since they earn the owner huge amounts of $$$$$
19 2013-03-03 00:33:18 <sipa> ?
20 2013-03-03 00:33:37 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
21 2013-03-03 00:34:12 copumpkin has joined
22 2013-03-03 00:35:10 HM has joined
23 2013-03-03 00:37:29 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
24 2013-03-03 00:37:39 MobPhone has joined
25 2013-03-03 00:46:45 ProfMac has joined
26 2013-03-03 00:53:05 knotwork has joined
27 2013-03-03 00:53:34 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
28 2013-03-03 00:58:43 Hasimir- has joined
29 2013-03-03 01:01:07 Guest748 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
30 2013-03-03 01:02:49 Quazgaa has joined
31 2013-03-03 01:06:57 JWU42 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
32 2013-03-03 01:14:31 <Luke-Jr> fatAgnes: BFGMiner is pretty open source, GPLv3
33 2013-03-03 01:18:06 <HM> Hmm
34 2013-03-03 01:19:43 JWU42 has joined
35 2013-03-03 01:20:40 <fatAgnes> i will google
36 2013-03-03 01:21:19 Hasimir- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
37 2013-03-03 01:23:46 i2pRelay has joined
38 2013-03-03 01:23:59 lolyou22 has joined
39 2013-03-03 01:24:03 <Quazgaa> is there a webpage or something for the ignorant layman that describes what the info bfgminer displays actually means
40 2013-03-03 01:25:39 lolyou22 has left ()
41 2013-03-03 01:27:27 Hasimir has joined
42 2013-03-03 01:27:38 Hasimir is now known as Guest64492
43 2013-03-03 01:31:41 GMP has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
44 2013-03-03 01:34:04 Mandrius has joined
45 2013-03-03 01:34:28 Mandrius is now known as Guest35177
46 2013-03-03 01:36:20 <fatAgnes> lol
47 2013-03-03 01:36:50 <fatAgnes> how do i feed bfgminer data?
48 2013-03-03 01:39:49 <sipa> what data do you want to feed it?
49 2013-03-03 01:40:19 <HM> reading that hardfork wishlist is great
50 2013-03-03 01:41:50 Guest35177 is now known as Mandirus
51 2013-03-03 01:42:50 Mandirus is now known as Mandrius
52 2013-03-03 01:44:23 gritcoin has joined
53 2013-03-03 01:47:18 X-Scale has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
54 2013-03-03 01:49:58 aethero has joined
55 2013-03-03 01:50:26 <aethero> Question: How are the devs planning to handle the hardfork that is going to be required to change the block size limit?
56 2013-03-03 01:51:21 <HM> from what i'm gleaning, the idea will be to break it hard
57 2013-03-03 01:51:33 meLon has joined
58 2013-03-03 01:51:37 <HM> e.g. make several invasive changes at once
59 2013-03-03 01:52:07 <HM> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist
60 2013-03-03 01:52:12 <Luke-Jr> aethero: by doing it at least 2 years before it takes effect
61 2013-03-03 01:52:25 <aethero> Luke-Jr can you clarify that statement?
62 2013-03-03 01:52:26 <Luke-Jr> and yes, ideally with as many improvements at once as possible
63 2013-03-03 01:52:45 <Luke-Jr> aethero: eg, if we released 0.9.0 with a hardfork tomorrow, it wouldn't be active until 2 years from now
64 2013-03-03 01:52:53 <aethero> Ahh
65 2013-03-03 01:52:57 <aethero> So everyone can switch over seamlessly
66 2013-03-03 01:53:05 <sipa> a hardfork requires every full node in the network to upgrade
67 2013-03-03 01:53:10 <Luke-Jr> the assumption being everyone is using 0.9.0 or newer in 2 years
68 2013-03-03 01:53:35 <sipa> so it requires both widespread consensus, and a lot of time for deployment and safety
69 2013-03-03 01:54:02 <Luke-Jr> I'm not sure we have the manpower to pull off a successful hardfork right now, considering present adoption
70 2013-03-03 01:54:53 <aethero> How far away do you envision a hardfork to be?
71 2013-03-03 01:55:06 <HM> it's an interesting problem
72 2013-03-03 01:55:06 <aethero> Given the practically exponential growth in adoption lately.
73 2013-03-03 01:55:24 <HM> during periods of relative stability people tend to let their software get old and forget about it
74 2013-03-03 01:55:27 <sipa> exponential growth in microtransactions that can easily happen off chain
75 2013-03-03 01:55:48 <phantomcircuit> " Navel gazing / Protocol housekeeping"
76 2013-03-03 01:55:49 <phantomcircuit> lold
77 2013-03-03 01:56:08 <Luke-Jr> aethero: nobody's even started working on one, so probably at least a year (before the 2 year wait)
78 2013-03-03 01:56:10 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
79 2013-03-03 01:56:37 <aethero> Luke-Jr Can you explain timejacking?
80 2013-03-03 01:56:43 <Luke-Jr> aethero: plus, there's no real need anytime soon
81 2013-03-03 01:56:44 <aethero> I've never heard that before reading the wishlist
82 2013-03-03 01:56:52 <Luke-Jr> aethero: it's not easy to explain
83 2013-03-03 01:57:22 <sipa> aethero: it's a particular and mostly theoretic weakness in how bitcoin calculates the difficulty
84 2013-03-03 01:57:39 <sipa> that could be exploited by a very expensive attack to keep difficupty down
85 2013-03-03 01:58:16 <sipa> it's trivial to fix, but can't be done without hardfork
86 2013-03-03 01:59:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: it can be soft-fork patched.
87 2013-03-03 01:59:10 <sipa> oh, ok
88 2013-03-03 02:01:40 * HM is reading about Chaum tokens
89 2013-03-03 02:11:29 <HM> the coin flip behind the menu thing is genius
90 2013-03-03 02:11:49 <HM> so simple
91 2013-03-03 02:12:51 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it's mostly just a minor nuisance
92 2013-03-03 02:12:55 <phantomcircuit> get it
93 2013-03-03 02:12:57 <phantomcircuit> minor
94 2013-03-03 02:13:01 * phantomcircuit lols
95 2013-03-03 02:13:50 <sipa> bitcoin: mining our own business since 2009
96 2013-03-03 02:14:05 gritcoin has joined
97 2013-03-03 02:14:36 X-Scale has joined
98 2013-03-03 02:16:58 <etotheipi_> hey, if Bitcoin-Qt no longer keeps an arbitrary txid->tx lookup (by default), then how does it know the transaction fees of incoming tx?
99 2013-03-03 02:18:09 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: incoming transactions spend unspent coinsâ¦
100 2013-03-03 02:18:20 <etotheipi_> ooh, UTXO set
101 2013-03-03 02:18:55 <etotheipi_> duh
102 2013-03-03 02:20:15 GMP has joined
103 2013-03-03 02:20:19 <etotheipi_> so if a peer requests a tx, and it's not available... we just ignore the request?
104 2013-03-03 02:20:41 <etotheipi_> but we still know where the blocks are on disk, so we can still serve blocks... correct?
105 2013-03-03 02:20:55 <gmaxwell> sipa: though I've never figured out _which_ soft forking rule blocks the timewarp with a minimum of impact on non-timewarp sequences.
106 2013-03-03 02:21:04 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: sure.
107 2013-03-03 02:21:56 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I'm wondering what Bitcoin-Qt does for gettx and getblock requests... am I right that it will ignore gettx requests for most tx (since it doesn't store the index anymore), but it can still handle any getblocks request...?
108 2013-03-03 02:22:26 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: we never servered random historical txn. IIRC.
109 2013-03-03 02:22:30 <etotheipi_> err... I shouldn't say "most tx", if it's not a tx with a UTXO
110 2013-03-03 02:22:31 <gmaxwell> er served.
111 2013-03-03 02:22:43 <sipa> indeed
112 2013-03-03 02:23:03 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: so the client did/does just ignore gettx requests that are ... not... ?
113 2013-03-03 02:23:09 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: the changes in 0.8 are not externally visible. IIRC.
114 2013-03-03 02:23:13 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: in the mempool.
115 2013-03-03 02:23:44 <etotheipi_> oh, if it's not in the mempool, it's because it made it into a block, and then we will serve the block instead
116 2013-03-03 02:24:09 <gmaxwell> Instead?
117 2013-03-03 02:24:16 <etotheipi_> (I mean, will serve it if requested...)
118 2013-03-03 02:24:23 <gmaxwell> Right.
119 2013-03-03 02:24:45 <sipa> etotheipi_: up to recent versions, you could only request transactions from the relay pool
120 2013-03-03 02:24:46 <etotheipi_> I'm just clarifying, if you send an inv for a tx in the mempool, then it ends up in a block, someone sends gettx, bitcoind ignores it
121 2013-03-03 02:25:02 <sipa> since the mempool command, also those from the mempool
122 2013-03-03 02:25:03 <etotheipi_> but that node will then be notified of the new block and just request that later
123 2013-03-03 02:25:32 <sipa> the relay pool always contains all recently relayed transactions
124 2013-03-03 02:25:42 <sipa> whether they are already in a block or not
125 2013-03-03 02:25:46 <etotheipi_> sipa: thanks
126 2013-03-03 02:26:02 <sipa> and indeed, never from historical blocks
127 2013-03-03 02:26:05 <etotheipi_> but through RPC I can request anything that's available
128 2013-03-03 02:26:09 <etotheipi_> ?
129 2013-03-03 02:26:09 <sipa> i think intentionally
130 2013-03-03 02:26:25 <sipa> if you have a txindex, you can request any tx
131 2013-03-03 02:26:36 <sipa> otherwise only those not yet fully spent
132 2013-03-03 02:26:43 <etotheipi_> gotcha, thanks
133 2013-03-03 02:26:51 <fatAgnes> bitcoind is a miner?
134 2013-03-03 02:26:55 <sipa> no
135 2013-03-03 02:28:09 <fatAgnes> what is it?
136 2013-03-03 02:28:40 OneMiner has joined
137 2013-03-03 02:29:02 <sipa> it is the reference client
138 2013-03-03 02:29:11 <sipa> a fully verifying bitcoun node
139 2013-03-03 02:29:23 <fatAgnes> ah
140 2013-03-03 02:29:26 <sipa> the same as Bitcoun-Qt, but without the GUI
141 2013-03-03 02:29:36 <sipa> *coIn
142 2013-03-03 02:29:47 <fatAgnes> i do i get a miner up and running?
143 2013-03-03 02:30:04 <sipa> what hardware do you have to mine with?
144 2013-03-03 02:31:18 <fatAgnes> gpu nvidea
145 2013-03-03 02:31:21 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
146 2013-03-03 02:31:32 <sipa> then don't
147 2013-03-03 02:31:32 <fatAgnes> dualcore p4
148 2013-03-03 02:32:07 <fatAgnes> why?
149 2013-03-03 02:32:17 <sipa> it'll cost you more in electricity and hardware damage than it will gain you
150 2013-03-03 02:32:42 <fatAgnes> thats not an answer to my question
151 2013-03-03 02:32:54 <sipa> and for further questions: #bitcoin and #bitcoin-mining
152 2013-03-03 02:33:06 <fatAgnes> ah good
153 2013-03-03 02:34:42 coolsa_ has joined
154 2013-03-03 02:35:08 bitit has joined
155 2013-03-03 02:37:03 coolsa has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
156 2013-03-03 02:39:11 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
157 2013-03-03 02:40:51 coolsa_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
158 2013-03-03 02:42:44 wladston has joined
159 2013-03-03 02:43:24 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
160 2013-03-03 02:44:20 MobiusL has joined
161 2013-03-03 02:46:10 freakazoid_ has joined
162 2013-03-03 02:46:36 coolsa has joined
163 2013-03-03 02:47:34 freakazoid has joined
164 2013-03-03 02:47:42 freakazoid_ has quit (Client Quit)
165 2013-03-03 02:49:02 knotwork has joined
166 2013-03-03 02:49:02 knotwork has quit (Changing host)
167 2013-03-03 02:49:02 knotwork has joined
168 2013-03-03 02:54:46 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
169 2013-03-03 02:56:28 gritcoin has joined
170 2013-03-03 02:59:11 da2ce7_d has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
171 2013-03-03 03:03:21 da2ce7 has joined
172 2013-03-03 03:07:50 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
173 2013-03-03 03:14:27 Guest64492 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
174 2013-03-03 03:14:27 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
175 2013-03-03 03:14:36 cheebydi has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
176 2013-03-03 03:14:40 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
177 2013-03-03 03:19:26 SkyHigh has joined
178 2013-03-03 03:20:34 knotwork has joined
179 2013-03-03 03:20:40 cheebydi has joined
180 2013-03-03 03:20:42 Hasimir has joined
181 2013-03-03 03:20:57 Hasimir is now known as Guest91519
182 2013-03-03 03:22:12 Mandrius has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
183 2013-03-03 03:24:19 SkyHigh has quit (2!kvirc@5.254.143.144|Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
184 2013-03-03 03:25:20 LargoG has joined
185 2013-03-03 03:31:31 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
186 2013-03-03 03:32:47 Goonie has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
187 2013-03-03 03:34:32 <muhoo> ;;ticker
188 2013-03-03 03:34:32 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 34.00001, Best ask: 34.19672, Bid-ask spread: 0.19671, Last trade: 34.15438, 24 hour volume: 13206.70894839, 24 hour low: 33.57100, 24 hour high: 34.59880, 24 hour vwap: 34.04977
189 2013-03-03 03:34:44 Raccoon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
190 2013-03-03 03:34:58 Raccoon has joined
191 2013-03-03 03:35:26 paybitcoin1 has joined
192 2013-03-03 03:35:34 PRab_ has joined
193 2013-03-03 03:35:57 idstam-se has joined
194 2013-03-03 03:36:37 PRab has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
195 2013-03-03 03:36:42 PRab_ is now known as PRab
196 2013-03-03 03:37:07 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
197 2013-03-03 03:37:07 brocktice has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
198 2013-03-03 03:37:07 jarpiain has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
199 2013-03-03 03:37:26 jarpiain has joined
200 2013-03-03 03:37:50 jarpiain is now known as Guest79108
201 2013-03-03 03:37:52 pigeons has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
202 2013-03-03 03:38:06 pigeons has joined
203 2013-03-03 03:38:29 pigeons is now known as Guest86180
204 2013-03-03 03:38:37 idstam has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
205 2013-03-03 03:39:18 brocktice has joined
206 2013-03-03 03:40:35 Guest86180 is now known as pigeons
207 2013-03-03 03:41:32 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
208 2013-03-03 03:43:20 EasyAt_ has joined
209 2013-03-03 03:44:20 jurov_ has joined
210 2013-03-03 03:44:29 helo_ has joined
211 2013-03-03 03:44:45 jevin__ has joined
212 2013-03-03 03:49:27 jevin__ is now known as jevin
213 2013-03-03 03:49:42 LargoG has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
214 2013-03-03 03:50:43 gritcoin has joined
215 2013-03-03 03:50:56 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
216 2013-03-03 03:53:04 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
217 2013-03-03 03:53:25 fiesh has joined
218 2013-03-03 03:54:03 techlife has joined
219 2013-03-03 03:55:22 BenderCoin has joined
220 2013-03-03 03:55:22 saivann has joined
221 2013-03-03 03:56:35 knotwork has joined
222 2013-03-03 03:58:10 vigilyn3 has joined
223 2013-03-03 03:58:14 vigilyn2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
224 2013-03-03 04:03:12 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
225 2013-03-03 04:07:39 Dety has quit ()
226 2013-03-03 04:08:29 MobPhone has quit (Quit: -a-)
227 2013-03-03 04:13:37 skeledrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
228 2013-03-03 04:13:50 skeledrew has joined
229 2013-03-03 04:20:01 bock is now known as bock_zZ_zZ
230 2013-03-03 04:21:48 knotwork has joined
231 2013-03-03 04:22:07 Hashdog has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
232 2013-03-03 04:23:06 toffoo has joined
233 2013-03-03 04:25:05 Shealan1 has joined
234 2013-03-03 04:25:06 Pasha has joined
235 2013-03-03 04:25:19 pooler has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
236 2013-03-03 04:25:22 buddyrand has joined
237 2013-03-03 04:25:32 Shealan has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
238 2013-03-03 04:25:48 pooler has joined
239 2013-03-03 04:26:40 serp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
240 2013-03-03 04:26:55 serp has joined
241 2013-03-03 04:27:14 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
242 2013-03-03 04:28:22 buddyrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
243 2013-03-03 04:29:03 alexwaters has joined
244 2013-03-03 04:30:11 Pasha is now known as Cory
245 2013-03-03 04:30:47 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
246 2013-03-03 04:32:35 alexwaters has left ()
247 2013-03-03 04:42:47 <etotheipi_> ugh... anyone know how to do a direct-download of Bitcoin-Qt from the sourceforge site? all links I can take you to the download page that downloads it after 5 seconds
248 2013-03-03 04:43:56 knotwork has joined
249 2013-03-03 04:51:32 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
250 2013-03-03 04:51:42 [7] has joined
251 2013-03-03 04:53:10 vigilyn3 is now known as vigilyn
252 2013-03-03 04:53:14 vigilyn has quit (Changing host)
253 2013-03-03 04:53:14 vigilyn has joined
254 2013-03-03 04:53:37 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, Luke-Jr: do you have a recommendation for downloading the installer and running it for the user? I want to have a thing that says "You need Bitcoin-Qt, here's a link or download it, or click here to download and install automatically"
255 2013-03-03 04:54:39 ThomasV has joined
256 2013-03-03 04:56:10 <etotheipi_> first of all, I need a direct download to do that... Luke-Jr gave me the RSS feed, but I don't think I should be trusting an RSS feed for the correct links... should I?
257 2013-03-03 04:56:49 <gmaxwell> you should check the signatures, perhaps.
258 2013-03-03 04:56:59 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: check for at least 3 known signatures
259 2013-03-03 04:57:00 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I was going to do that
260 2013-03-03 04:57:10 <etotheipi_> oh well that answers the question then
261 2013-03-03 04:57:12 <Luke-Jr> or maybe at least 2
262 2013-03-03 04:57:26 <etotheipi_> duh, that's what the signatures are for
263 2013-03-03 04:57:43 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: or 2 + your own, and add your sig to them ;O)
264 2013-03-03 04:58:09 <etotheipi_> nah, I don't want to be tied in anyway to the Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoind release schedule
265 2013-03-03 04:58:40 <etotheipi_> if there's a security update, I don't want to have to be rushing to do <whatever> in order for my users to get the new version
266 2013-03-03 04:58:48 <etotheipi_> it's also why I don't want to just bundle it with Armory
267 2013-03-03 05:00:15 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
268 2013-03-03 05:00:34 bitit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
269 2013-03-03 05:02:25 <etotheipi_> gah... looks like it's going to be complicated to verify the signatures in Windows... I assume they are GPG signatures?
270 2013-03-03 05:03:26 <etotheipi_> any reasonable way to do it without having the user install GPG4Win (or whatever the available options are for Windows)?
271 2013-03-03 05:15:17 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
272 2013-03-03 05:28:14 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
273 2013-03-03 05:33:10 Graet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
274 2013-03-03 05:33:16 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
275 2013-03-03 05:34:02 Cory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
276 2013-03-03 05:34:40 andytoshi has joined
277 2013-03-03 05:35:53 abracadabopoulos has joined
278 2013-03-03 05:37:48 Grishnakh_ has joined
279 2013-03-03 05:38:03 fpgaminer has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
280 2013-03-03 05:39:06 fpgaminer has joined
281 2013-03-03 05:39:34 EasyAt_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
282 2013-03-03 05:39:43 EasyAt has joined
283 2013-03-03 05:40:42 Guest56875 has joined
284 2013-03-03 05:41:08 abracadabra has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
285 2013-03-03 05:41:08 Grishnakh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
286 2013-03-03 05:41:48 serp__ has joined
287 2013-03-03 05:41:48 serp__ has quit (Changing host)
288 2013-03-03 05:41:48 serp__ has joined
289 2013-03-03 05:41:48 hasha_ has joined
290 2013-03-03 05:42:18 [u]{s}[e]{r} has joined
291 2013-03-03 05:42:49 erska_ has joined
292 2013-03-03 05:42:59 Toresh_ has joined
293 2013-03-03 05:43:09 EvanR_ has joined
294 2013-03-03 05:43:10 Shealan has joined
295 2013-03-03 05:43:14 Mrcheesenips has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
296 2013-03-03 05:43:37 DarkGhost` has joined
297 2013-03-03 05:43:51 Mrcheesenips has joined
298 2013-03-03 05:43:51 Mrcheesenips has quit (Changing host)
299 2013-03-03 05:43:51 Mrcheesenips has joined
300 2013-03-03 05:44:02 ralphthe1inja has joined
301 2013-03-03 05:44:37 kinlo_ has joined
302 2013-03-03 05:44:48 <DarkGhost`> Hello, I'm using bitcoind and I'm trying to send money to an address using sendtoaddress <address> .0001 but it tells me I need a txfee of .005 even when I change it to .00001 or .000001 it still sends
303 2013-03-03 05:44:54 lianj_ has joined
304 2013-03-03 05:45:03 pierre`_ has joined
305 2013-03-03 05:45:22 Mad7Scientist has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
306 2013-03-03 05:45:34 int0x27h has joined
307 2013-03-03 05:45:47 serp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
308 2013-03-03 05:45:51 hasha has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
309 2013-03-03 05:45:52 Toresh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
310 2013-03-03 05:45:52 erska has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
311 2013-03-03 05:45:53 EvanR has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
312 2013-03-03 05:45:53 Shealan1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
313 2013-03-03 05:45:53 int0x27h_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
314 2013-03-03 05:45:54 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
315 2013-03-03 05:45:54 swhitt has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
316 2013-03-03 05:45:54 kinlo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
317 2013-03-03 05:45:54 pierre` has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
318 2013-03-03 05:45:55 lianj has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
319 2013-03-03 05:45:56 Toresh_ is now known as Toresh
320 2013-03-03 05:46:02 Mad7Scientist has joined
321 2013-03-03 05:46:08 Guest56875 is now known as Graet
322 2013-03-03 05:46:18 Graet has quit (Changing host)
323 2013-03-03 05:46:18 Graet has joined
324 2013-03-03 05:46:29 swhitt has joined
325 2013-03-03 05:46:38 lianj_ is now known as lianj
326 2013-03-03 05:48:19 kinlo_ is now known as kinlo
327 2013-03-03 05:49:34 abrkn has joined
328 2013-03-03 05:52:01 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
329 2013-03-03 05:52:42 PRab has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
330 2013-03-03 05:53:38 PRab has joined
331 2013-03-03 05:55:01 techlife has joined
332 2013-03-03 05:57:47 frosks has joined
333 2013-03-03 05:58:35 nowan_ has joined
334 2013-03-03 05:59:52 gritcoin has joined
335 2013-03-03 06:00:56 meLon_ has joined
336 2013-03-03 06:01:29 EvanR has joined
337 2013-03-03 06:01:37 axhlf has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
338 2013-03-03 06:01:37 nowan has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
339 2013-03-03 06:01:38 delqn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
340 2013-03-03 06:01:38 [u]{s}[e]{r} has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
341 2013-03-03 06:01:38 EvanR_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
342 2013-03-03 06:01:38 meLon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
343 2013-03-03 06:01:52 EvanR is now known as Guest28611
344 2013-03-03 06:02:47 gritcoin has quit (Client Quit)
345 2013-03-03 06:16:09 MCM-Mike_ has joined
346 2013-03-03 06:16:09 Pucilowski_ has joined
347 2013-03-03 06:16:09 dooglus_ has joined
348 2013-03-03 06:16:09 he1kki_ has joined
349 2013-03-03 06:16:09 delqn has joined
350 2013-03-03 06:16:09 rbecker has joined
351 2013-03-03 06:16:09 RedEmerald has joined
352 2013-03-03 06:19:35 helo_ is now known as helo
353 2013-03-03 06:19:36 grau has joined
354 2013-03-03 06:19:38 <DarkGhost`> Hello, I'm using bitcoind and I'm trying to send money to an address using sendtoaddress <address> .0001 but it tells me I need a txfee of .005 even when I change it to .00001 or .000001 it still sends
355 2013-03-03 06:21:02 techlife has joined
356 2013-03-03 06:32:52 bitit has joined
357 2013-03-03 06:34:23 <weex> DarkGhost`: it has some fee rules hard coded
358 2013-03-03 06:37:25 BGL has joined
359 2013-03-03 06:39:25 <Luke-Jr> DarkGhost`: we already answered you on this
360 2013-03-03 06:41:12 Azelphur has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
361 2013-03-03 06:41:29 JStoker has joined
362 2013-03-03 06:42:24 jurov_ has quit (Quit: User accidentally the)
363 2013-03-03 06:42:31 Azelphur has joined
364 2013-03-03 06:42:54 jurov has joined
365 2013-03-03 06:43:21 knotwork has joined
366 2013-03-03 06:43:34 Cory has joined
367 2013-03-03 06:43:34 BenderCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
368 2013-03-03 06:44:08 gritcoin has joined
369 2013-03-03 06:44:59 he1kki_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
370 2013-03-03 06:45:13 he1kki has joined
371 2013-03-03 06:48:08 Graet is now known as Guest52148
372 2013-03-03 06:48:15 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
373 2013-03-03 06:50:08 coolsa has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
374 2013-03-03 06:57:18 knotwork has joined
375 2013-03-03 06:58:28 [u]{s}[e]{r} has joined
376 2013-03-03 07:07:38 abrkn is now known as Guest20623
377 2013-03-03 07:07:38 abrkn\ has joined
378 2013-03-03 07:10:29 Guest20623 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
379 2013-03-03 07:13:44 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
380 2013-03-03 07:16:09 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
381 2013-03-03 07:17:30 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
382 2013-03-03 07:23:34 bitit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
383 2013-03-03 07:25:51 Guest52148 has quit (Quit: ZNC - I rarely quit but when I do it is becuase of you)
384 2013-03-03 07:29:18 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
385 2013-03-03 07:30:11 kinlo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
386 2013-03-03 07:30:43 kinlo has joined
387 2013-03-03 07:32:56 mappum has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
388 2013-03-03 07:32:58 toffoo has quit ()
389 2013-03-03 07:33:24 mappum has joined
390 2013-03-03 07:36:24 Detritus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
391 2013-03-03 07:36:44 <muhoo> wow, the ping interval, at least on bitcoinj, looks like about 200ms
392 2013-03-03 07:36:48 Detritus has joined
393 2013-03-03 07:56:54 idstam-se has quit ()
394 2013-03-03 07:57:01 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
395 2013-03-03 07:59:28 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
396 2013-03-03 07:59:59 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
397 2013-03-03 08:00:46 BGL has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
398 2013-03-03 08:01:03 agricocb has joined
399 2013-03-03 08:01:34 MobiusL has joined
400 2013-03-03 08:04:36 aethero has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
401 2013-03-03 08:09:23 <DarkGhost`> Luke-Jr but I need to know how to bypass the rules so I can send without a tx fee
402 2013-03-03 08:09:56 <Luke-Jr> DarkGhost`: why?
403 2013-03-03 08:10:16 <DarkGhost`> so I can send .001 if needed
404 2013-03-03 08:10:23 <Luke-Jr> pay a fee then
405 2013-03-03 08:10:32 <DarkGhost`> the fee is more than the .001 i want to send!
406 2013-03-03 08:10:46 <Luke-Jr> yepyep
407 2013-03-03 08:10:48 CodeShark has joined
408 2013-03-03 08:10:58 <Luke-Jr> cuz you're not supposed to send .001 BTC ;)
409 2013-03-03 08:11:03 <Luke-Jr> that's less than 5 cents
410 2013-03-03 08:11:27 <Luke-Jr> and unless your wallet is ridiculous, the fee would only be .0005 BTC
411 2013-03-03 08:13:09 <DarkGhost`> well some places do it, like satoshidice if you loose it sends you back a small amount to let you know
412 2013-03-03 08:13:36 <Luke-Jr> SatoshiDice is a DDoS attack on Bitcoin, and forces other people to pay fees for it
413 2013-03-03 08:13:48 <DarkGhost`> how does that work
414 2013-03-03 08:13:53 <Luke-Jr> social engineering
415 2013-03-03 08:13:58 <Luke-Jr> it takes advantage of gamblers
416 2013-03-03 08:14:09 <DarkGhost`> but it doesn't actually pay the fee
417 2013-03-03 08:14:15 <Luke-Jr> nope, it makes the gamblers do that
418 2013-03-03 08:14:21 <Luke-Jr> but there IS a fee
419 2013-03-03 08:14:29 <DarkGhost`> the gamblers have to pay a fee when they send one to satoshi
420 2013-03-03 08:14:34 <DarkGhost`> satoshi doesnt pay one when it sends it back
421 2013-03-03 08:14:46 <DarkGhost`> what about this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Free_transaction_relay_policy
422 2013-03-03 08:14:54 <Luke-Jr> it takes it out of the gamblers' return amount
423 2013-03-03 08:15:00 <Luke-Jr> that's just for relaying, not accepting
424 2013-03-03 08:15:52 <DarkGhost`> so lost :(
425 2013-03-03 08:15:55 <DarkGhost`> ugh
426 2013-03-03 08:16:12 <DarkGhost`> so i have .0001 im stuck with it?
427 2013-03-03 08:17:46 <Luke-Jr> DarkGhost`: if you just want to get rid of it, I can help you surrender it to a miner
428 2013-03-03 08:18:31 <Luke-Jr> actually
429 2013-03-03 08:18:35 <Luke-Jr> paste me an address in here
430 2013-03-03 08:18:42 <Luke-Jr> how much is the fee to send it?
431 2013-03-03 08:18:47 <Luke-Jr> I'll just send you that
432 2013-03-03 08:18:47 <DarkGhost`> .0005
433 2013-03-03 08:18:55 <DarkGhost`> why would you do that though? lol
434 2013-03-03 08:19:06 <Luke-Jr> it's just a penny
435 2013-03-03 08:19:21 <DarkGhost`> lol well no need its really just an experiment on how to move around bitcoins using bitcoind and such
436 2013-03-03 08:19:24 <DarkGhost`> I do appreciate it though.
437 2013-03-03 08:20:34 <Luke-Jr> well, I'd rather the coin not be destroyed completely (= never spent, file/PC deleted)
438 2013-03-03 08:21:28 <DarkGhost`> whats the "relaying' mean
439 2013-03-03 08:21:53 <DarkGhost`> okay i have a great example Luke-Jr!!
440 2013-03-03 08:21:55 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin.pdf may be useful to read
441 2013-03-03 08:22:02 <DarkGhost`> http://dailybitcoins.org/ how do websites like this, send out such small ammounts
442 2013-03-03 08:22:06 <DarkGhost`> there obviously not paying a .005 fee
443 2013-03-03 08:23:02 <weex> 0.0005 is more common, plus they put lots of outputs in one transaction
444 2013-03-03 08:23:18 <weex> sending out once per day or a few times only
445 2013-03-03 08:23:46 <DarkGhost`> thats what I meant sorry .0005, so they send out multiple coins to different addresses in one tx?
446 2013-03-03 08:24:12 Apexseals has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
447 2013-03-03 08:25:05 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
448 2013-03-03 08:25:07 Apexseals has joined
449 2013-03-03 08:26:44 buddyrandom has joined
450 2013-03-03 08:28:26 buddyrand has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
451 2013-03-03 08:30:17 BenderCoin has joined
452 2013-03-03 08:30:24 BGL has joined
453 2013-03-03 08:34:10 <Luke-Jr> DarkGhost`: correct
454 2013-03-03 08:36:16 <DarkGhost`> do they use createrawtransaction
455 2013-03-03 08:36:19 <DarkGhost`> to acheive that?
456 2013-03-03 08:36:48 <Luke-Jr> no, sendmany
457 2013-03-03 08:37:38 <DarkGhost`> {address:amount,...}
458 2013-03-03 08:38:09 <DarkGhost`> does that mean I literally put like ./bitcoind sendmany accountname {addresshere:.0001} or?
459 2013-03-03 08:38:29 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind isn't really meant to be used from the command line
460 2013-03-03 08:38:39 <Luke-Jr> ./bitcoind sendmany accountname '{"addresshere": 0.0001}'
461 2013-03-03 08:38:39 grau has joined
462 2013-03-03 08:38:42 <Luke-Jr> that will work
463 2013-03-03 08:38:46 <DarkGhost`> okay thnak you
464 2013-03-03 08:39:32 <DarkGhost`> ugh
465 2013-03-03 08:39:44 <DarkGhost`> insufficient funds, probably still trying to use tx fee
466 2013-03-03 08:39:46 <DarkGhost`> rawr
467 2013-03-03 08:39:48 <Luke-Jr> of course
468 2013-03-03 08:40:01 <DarkGhost`> I need to have more than like 5 addresses to remoe the tx fe??
469 2013-03-03 08:40:37 <DarkGhost`> i give up,
470 2013-03-03 08:41:11 <Luke-Jr> you can't remove the fee
471 2013-03-03 08:41:33 <DarkGhost`> satoshi dice sends back minimal amounts and I just want to do it like them
472 2013-03-03 08:41:34 <DarkGhost`> lmao
473 2013-03-03 08:41:39 <DarkGhost`> sorry know I'm being stubborn
474 2013-03-03 08:42:17 <Luke-Jr> sorry, I'm not going to encourage people to setup another DDoS like SD
475 2013-03-03 08:42:35 <Luke-Jr> and 100% of the transactions SD sends have fees, even though it's not paid by SD
476 2013-03-03 08:42:54 <DarkGhost`> so are you saying that when people send money to SD they send double the fee?
477 2013-03-03 08:43:00 <DarkGhost`> one to send it and one for SD to send it back?
478 2013-03-03 08:43:14 <Luke-Jr> DarkGhost`: no, SD takes it out of what it's sending back
479 2013-03-03 08:43:22 <DarkGhost`> have you ever played SD?
480 2013-03-03 08:43:41 <Luke-Jr> so if you win 0.50 BTC, SD sends you 0.4995 BTC and puts 0.0005 BTC of your winnings in the fee
481 2013-03-03 08:43:53 <DarkGhost`> lets say you bet .50 BTC and lose it.
482 2013-03-03 08:43:56 <Luke-Jr> no, I support Bitcoin, so I will not enable attacks against Bitcoin
483 2013-03-03 08:44:00 <DarkGhost`> they still send you back like .000001 so you know that you lost
484 2013-03-03 08:44:49 andytoshi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
485 2013-03-03 08:45:21 andytoshi has joined
486 2013-03-03 08:47:07 Shealan has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
487 2013-03-03 09:02:25 ovidiusoft has joined
488 2013-03-03 09:09:25 MC1984_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
489 2013-03-03 09:11:34 zebedee_ has joined
490 2013-03-03 09:12:46 Arnavion has quit (Disconnected by services)
491 2013-03-03 09:12:55 Arnavion has joined
492 2013-03-03 09:13:40 AtashiCon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
493 2013-03-03 09:14:06 ThomasV has joined
494 2013-03-03 09:14:13 AtashiCon has joined
495 2013-03-03 09:28:39 Guest91519 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
496 2013-03-03 09:30:10 yellowhat has joined
497 2013-03-03 09:30:14 yellowhat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
498 2013-03-03 09:30:16 Hasimir has joined
499 2013-03-03 09:30:29 Hasimir is now known as Guest52632
500 2013-03-03 09:37:06 knotwork has joined
501 2013-03-03 09:37:06 knotwork has quit (Changing host)
502 2013-03-03 09:37:06 knotwork has joined
503 2013-03-03 09:48:47 n0g4n0o has joined
504 2013-03-03 09:49:27 sega01 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
505 2013-03-03 09:50:24 nOgAnOo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
506 2013-03-03 09:52:22 <sturles> DarkGhost`: That's evil! You will end up payin more fees to spend that dust than it is worth.
507 2013-03-03 09:53:27 monkeynipples has joined
508 2013-03-03 09:54:20 sega01 has joined
509 2013-03-03 09:56:44 BTCTrader2 has quit (Quit: BTCTrader2)
510 2013-03-03 10:00:17 Goonie has joined
511 2013-03-03 10:01:17 Garr255_ has joined
512 2013-03-03 10:01:17 Garr255_ has quit (Changing host)
513 2013-03-03 10:01:17 Garr255_ has joined
514 2013-03-03 10:04:29 Garr255 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
515 2013-03-03 10:06:04 <jouke> /window 14
516 2013-03-03 10:06:07 <jouke> >_<
517 2013-03-03 10:07:43 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
518 2013-03-03 10:08:23 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
519 2013-03-03 10:09:25 <Quazgaa> i prefer to hit alt-j 14
520 2013-03-03 10:09:27 <Quazgaa> ;)
521 2013-03-03 10:11:57 fatAgnes is now known as fatCoin
522 2013-03-03 10:12:26 fatCoin is now known as kritCoin
523 2013-03-03 10:19:04 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
524 2013-03-03 10:19:40 rlifchitz has joined
525 2013-03-03 10:19:40 rlifchitz has quit (Changing host)
526 2013-03-03 10:19:40 rlifchitz has joined
527 2013-03-03 10:23:42 B0g4r7 has joined
528 2013-03-03 10:47:04 delqn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
529 2013-03-03 10:54:25 delqn has joined
530 2013-03-03 11:01:58 root2_ has joined
531 2013-03-03 11:03:43 monkeynipples has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
532 2013-03-03 11:03:51 [u]{s}[e]{r} has quit ()
533 2013-03-03 11:04:19 monkeynipples has joined
534 2013-03-03 11:05:19 root2 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
535 2013-03-03 11:12:03 one_zero has quit ()
536 2013-03-03 11:17:50 Diablo-D3 has joined
537 2013-03-03 11:21:18 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
538 2013-03-03 11:24:47 tonikt has joined
539 2013-03-03 11:25:19 BTCOxygen has joined
540 2013-03-03 11:31:59 <BTCOxygen> Hi
541 2013-03-03 11:33:12 <Quazgaa> buns
542 2013-03-03 11:33:54 Hasimir- has joined
543 2013-03-03 11:36:32 Guest52632 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
544 2013-03-03 11:37:45 buddyrand has joined
545 2013-03-03 11:39:25 buddyrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
546 2013-03-03 11:48:30 ielo has joined
547 2013-03-03 11:55:19 RazielZ has joined
548 2013-03-03 11:57:54 abracadabopoulos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
549 2013-03-03 11:58:05 abracadabra has joined
550 2013-03-03 11:58:05 abracadabra has quit (Changing host)
551 2013-03-03 11:58:05 abracadabra has joined
552 2013-03-03 12:05:03 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
553 2013-03-03 12:05:49 buddyrand has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
554 2013-03-03 12:06:13 buddyrand has joined
555 2013-03-03 12:12:54 tonikt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
556 2013-03-03 12:23:21 ielo has joined
557 2013-03-03 12:44:05 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
558 2013-03-03 12:49:04 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
559 2013-03-03 12:49:24 Hasimir_ has joined
560 2013-03-03 12:49:34 Hasimir_ is now known as Guest85116
561 2013-03-03 12:51:45 Hashdog has joined
562 2013-03-03 12:51:47 Hasimir- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
563 2013-03-03 12:52:09 Mandrius has joined
564 2013-03-03 12:53:35 serp__ is now known as serp
565 2013-03-03 13:16:12 TD has joined
566 2013-03-03 13:24:53 LargoG has joined
567 2013-03-03 13:27:10 fpgaminer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
568 2013-03-03 13:27:32 abrkn\ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
569 2013-03-03 13:28:05 fpgaminer has joined
570 2013-03-03 13:34:20 chmod755 has joined
571 2013-03-03 13:38:03 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
572 2013-03-03 13:38:30 i2pRelay has joined
573 2013-03-03 13:42:30 denisx has joined
574 2013-03-03 13:43:15 <Goonie> bitcoinj 0.7.1 and Bitcoin Wallet 2.42 have been released, mainly fixing bugs.
575 2013-03-03 13:44:04 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
576 2013-03-03 13:53:55 Hasimir- has joined
577 2013-03-03 13:55:35 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
578 2013-03-03 13:55:36 Cory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
579 2013-03-03 13:56:17 Guest85116 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
580 2013-03-03 13:59:45 andytoshi has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0)
581 2013-03-03 14:03:24 <TD> thanks Goonie
582 2013-03-03 14:03:27 * TD -> out for a while
583 2013-03-03 14:04:21 knotwork has joined
584 2013-03-03 14:06:34 Guest61981 has joined
585 2013-03-03 14:07:04 Guest61981 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
586 2013-03-03 14:07:55 Guest61981 has joined
587 2013-03-03 14:09:43 LargoG has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
588 2013-03-03 14:10:36 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
589 2013-03-03 14:11:03 TD__ has joined
590 2013-03-03 14:12:35 int0x27h_ has joined
591 2013-03-03 14:13:13 DrHaribo_ has joined
592 2013-03-03 14:13:32 Zarutian has joined
593 2013-03-03 14:14:00 Elite69_ has joined
594 2013-03-03 14:14:50 Tycale has joined
595 2013-03-03 14:15:26 TD__ has quit (Client Quit)
596 2013-03-03 14:17:01 RBecker_ has joined
597 2013-03-03 14:17:42 ielo has joined
598 2013-03-03 14:18:07 amiller_ has joined
599 2013-03-03 14:18:34 Prattler_ has joined
600 2013-03-03 14:18:35 monkeynipples has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
601 2013-03-03 14:19:48 Elite69_ is now known as Elite69
602 2013-03-03 14:19:49 Prattler_ is now known as Prattler
603 2013-03-03 14:19:53 RBecker_ is now known as RBecker
604 2013-03-03 14:20:05 RBecker has joined
605 2013-03-03 14:20:31 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
606 2013-03-03 14:21:25 knotwork has joined
607 2013-03-03 14:21:55 bitit has joined
608 2013-03-03 14:23:05 Guest61981 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
609 2013-03-03 14:23:14 Hasimir has joined
610 2013-03-03 14:23:27 Hasimir is now known as Guest64161
611 2013-03-03 14:24:11 Hasimir- has quit (Ping timeout: 251 seconds)
612 2013-03-03 14:24:37 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
613 2013-03-03 14:24:42 Guest34720 has joined
614 2013-03-03 14:28:45 skeledrew has joined
615 2013-03-03 14:28:45 agricocb has joined
616 2013-03-03 14:29:00 techlife has joined
617 2013-03-03 14:35:19 denisx has joined
618 2013-03-03 14:37:10 bock_zZ_zZ is now known as bock
619 2013-03-03 14:48:51 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
620 2013-03-03 14:51:40 <kritCoin> how many mining programs are out there?
621 2013-03-03 14:52:46 <SomeoneWeird> quite a few
622 2013-03-03 14:52:48 <kritCoin> is there a reference mining implementationj?
623 2013-03-03 14:53:00 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
624 2013-03-03 14:53:06 <SomeoneWeird> theres cpu mining code built into bitcoind
625 2013-03-03 14:53:10 <SomeoneWeird> but it's disabled
626 2013-03-03 14:53:32 <kritCoin> does it work?
627 2013-03-03 14:53:45 <SomeoneWeird> yes
628 2013-03-03 14:53:48 <kritCoin> that one is the reference?
629 2013-03-03 14:53:48 <SomeoneWeird> but it's a cpu miner
630 2013-03-03 14:53:55 <SomeoneWeird> and it's very inefficient
631 2013-03-03 14:54:03 <SomeoneWeird> depends what you mean by "reference"
632 2013-03-03 14:54:38 knotwork has joined
633 2013-03-03 14:54:57 <kritCoin> is there a list of mining software somewhere?
634 2013-03-03 14:55:42 <kritCoin> is there a list of mining software somewhere?
635 2013-03-03 14:57:29 <SomeoneWeird> don't spam
636 2013-03-03 14:58:16 <Quazgaa> heh
637 2013-03-03 14:58:29 <Quazgaa> i bet google knows
638 2013-03-03 14:59:19 vigilyn2 has joined
639 2013-03-03 15:00:49 vigilyn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
640 2013-03-03 15:02:00 <kritCoin> what is the differencce between a gpu miner and a FPGA miner
641 2013-03-03 15:03:09 <HM> a gpu miner uses your computers graphics processor
642 2013-03-03 15:03:15 <Raccoon> FPGA can be optomized for a very specific task.
643 2013-03-03 15:03:20 delqn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
644 2013-03-03 15:03:25 <HM> a fpga miner uses a fpga, which is a programmable generic device you can buy
645 2013-03-03 15:05:18 delqn has joined
646 2013-03-03 15:05:30 <Raccoon> a lot lower power, too
647 2013-03-03 15:06:14 <Raccoon> hmm
648 2013-03-03 15:07:19 <Raccoon> at 800 mhash, how long to earn 33 bitcoins?
649 2013-03-03 15:08:15 <HM> well the network is up to something like 35 TH/s
650 2013-03-03 15:08:47 <HM> there's a bot command for that calculation
651 2013-03-03 15:09:16 <denisx> Raccoon: http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator
652 2013-03-03 15:09:37 <Raccoon> oh jesus, 35 TH/s already
653 2013-03-03 15:09:56 <HM> 800 MH/s is only 0.002% of the network
654 2013-03-03 15:10:26 wereHamster has quit (Changing host)
655 2013-03-03 15:10:27 wereHamster has joined
656 2013-03-03 15:12:30 wladston has joined
657 2013-03-03 15:12:32 <Scrat> so how can I quantify "connect to well connected nodes" now that b.i doesn't have a list of them
658 2013-03-03 15:16:38 <SomeoneWeird> <HM> a fpga miner uses a fpga, which is a programmable generic device you can buy < not generic, VERY specific
659 2013-03-03 15:18:09 <OneMiner> Good suggestion from #bitcoin-mining, allow user to specify alternative dirrectory for blockchain files on install of client. Example, if C:\ is a SSD then I may want to put the blockchain on D:\.
660 2013-03-03 15:18:45 <HM> SomeoneWeird: in what way specific? I meant generic in the sense it's not made for a specific purpose like a GPU
661 2013-03-03 15:18:45 <Scrat> D:\. looks like a smiley with a mental deficiency
662 2013-03-03 15:19:27 Guest79108 is now known as jarpiain
663 2013-03-03 15:19:35 <OneMiner> Same with C:
664 2013-03-03 15:19:57 <OneMiner> That smile aint natural. Botox or something....
665 2013-03-03 15:20:14 <Diablo-D3> OneMiner: rem, I'd rather have the chain on an ssd
666 2013-03-03 15:20:18 <Diablo-D3> *erm
667 2013-03-03 15:20:33 <Diablo-D3> the whole "writing SSDs to death" thing was debunked years ago
668 2013-03-03 15:21:03 <Scrat> Diablo-D3: i dont think that's what he asked
669 2013-03-03 15:21:03 <OneMiner> Diablo-D3 But what if I have other things that I'd give higher SSD priority to. Such as games and porn?
670 2013-03-03 15:21:07 <Scrat> but you're right about that
671 2013-03-03 15:21:34 <Diablo-D3> OneMiner: porn is cold storage, it doesn't require a high IO device
672 2013-03-03 15:21:55 <Diablo-D3> and games don't need high IO either just high throughput, which can be done on mechanical drives fine
673 2013-03-03 15:22:08 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin is a database load, thus needs high IO over high throughput
674 2013-03-03 15:22:12 <OneMiner> Or it's full or something... I dunno, I'm kidding about the porn. :P I don't even have an SSD. I just think this is a worthwhile feature. It would cost one page on the installer.
675 2013-03-03 15:23:10 <Diablo-D3> thats probably a bad idea
676 2013-03-03 15:23:35 <Diablo-D3> it'd lead to dumbfucks trying to network host the chain and trying to use it across multiple instances of the client
677 2013-03-03 15:23:54 <Diablo-D3> plus, wallets would still need to be in per user dirs
678 2013-03-03 15:24:03 <Diablo-D3> and its better to just keep the files in one place
679 2013-03-03 15:24:28 <Scrat> so, guise, is there a list of well connected nodes?
680 2013-03-03 15:26:18 <OneMiner> With GB/s LAN and everything, would that even be a bad idea? Diablo-D3
681 2013-03-03 15:26:55 <Diablo-D3> OneMiner: er? its not meant to be accessed by multiple clients at once
682 2013-03-03 15:27:02 <Diablo-D3> it'd get corrupted quickly
683 2013-03-03 15:27:49 <Diablo-D3> databases over raw IO network protocols also generally lead to data corruption through user stupidity
684 2013-03-03 15:27:53 <OneMiner> Ok, I see. But I maintain that an alternate install dir for the blockchain could be useful. Example, C:\ is a HDD and D:\ is a SDD where you want the blockchain.
685 2013-03-03 15:28:12 <Diablo-D3> OneMiner: no.
686 2013-03-03 15:28:21 <Diablo-D3> they'd be better off switching to a filesystem that can use both drives
687 2013-03-03 15:29:25 <OneMiner> Well, we don't want to be talking filesystems and stuff. This needs to be a user friendly install.
688 2013-03-03 15:30:21 * OneMiner has SSDs on the mind and browses the stores
689 2013-03-03 15:31:32 <Diablo-D3> you're solving the problem at the wrong layer
690 2013-03-03 15:31:36 DrHaribo_ is now known as DrHaribo
691 2013-03-03 15:31:42 <Diablo-D3> computers should function properly first
692 2013-03-03 15:31:47 <Diablo-D3> you can worry about bitcoin later.
693 2013-03-03 15:37:10 bock has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
694 2013-03-03 15:37:15 grau has joined
695 2013-03-03 15:43:16 bock has joined
696 2013-03-03 15:46:31 <Raccoon> is there any way to push a transaction through before the client is finished syncing?
697 2013-03-03 15:46:48 <Raccoon> there's no way this laptop will ever finish.
698 2013-03-03 15:47:22 <sipa> Raccoon: what version and what hardware?
699 2013-03-03 15:47:45 <Raccoon> 0.6.3
700 2013-03-03 15:47:54 <sipa> install 0.8.0
701 2013-03-03 15:48:05 <Raccoon> a 2004 single core 1.7 with a pATA hdd
702 2013-03-03 15:48:33 <Raccoon> when I do, then what
703 2013-03-03 15:48:37 <sipa> hmm, it may still take a while to sync on 0.8.0, but it shouldn't be more than a few hours
704 2013-03-03 15:48:51 <Raccoon> so what's the key cobo to push the tx through
705 2013-03-03 15:49:28 <sipa> is the transaction shown in the client?
706 2013-03-03 15:49:37 <Raccoon> yes
707 2013-03-03 15:49:43 <sipa> with confirmations?
708 2013-03-03 15:49:47 <Raccoon> no.
709 2013-03-03 15:49:54 <Raccoon> it wont confirm till synced
710 2013-03-03 15:50:00 <sipa> then it should already be pushing it to the network
711 2013-03-03 15:50:04 <Raccoon> the money is old
712 2013-03-03 15:50:33 <Raccoon> but the client is 200 days from syncing, and hasn't budged
713 2013-03-03 15:50:38 Detritus has joined
714 2013-03-03 15:50:43 <sipa> "budged" ?
715 2013-03-03 15:51:04 <Raccoon> budged.
716 2013-03-03 15:51:15 <sipa> ok
717 2013-03-03 15:51:35 <sipa> but what is the problem? that the tx isn't being sent to the network, or that it isn't shown as confirmed?
718 2013-03-03 15:51:46 <Raccoon> both?
719 2013-03-03 15:51:56 <sipa> because afaik, it should be pushing it to the network every now and then automatically, until it sees it confirmed
720 2013-03-03 15:52:12 <sipa> and the slow syncing should be significantly better in 0.8.0
721 2013-03-03 15:52:17 <Raccoon> even if the client is still downloading 200 days fo blocks?
722 2013-03-03 15:52:31 <Raccoon> i don't even want to try syncing
723 2013-03-03 15:52:35 <Raccoon> i want to delete it
724 2013-03-03 15:52:49 <Raccoon> and format
725 2013-03-03 15:52:51 <sipa> can you tell me the txid?
726 2013-03-03 15:53:10 <sipa> make a backup of wallet.dat, format, install 0.8.0, but wallet backup back
727 2013-03-03 15:53:38 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
728 2013-03-03 15:54:13 grau has joined
729 2013-03-03 15:54:35 <sipa> but just installing 0.8.0 will be faster, as it will reuse the block data you already have instead of re-downloading it
730 2013-03-03 15:56:16 <kritCoin> FPGA seems to be like ASIC,
731 2013-03-03 15:56:25 <kritCoin> are there FPGA mining boards?
732 2013-03-03 15:56:29 <sipa> yes
733 2013-03-03 15:56:58 <kritCoin> mmm
734 2013-03-03 15:59:00 vigilyn3 has joined
735 2013-03-03 15:59:05 vigilyn2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
736 2013-03-03 15:59:47 <OneMiner> FPGA is like ASIC as CPU is like GPU.
737 2013-03-03 16:00:06 <OneMiner> For our purposes.
738 2013-03-03 16:03:24 <sipa> an FPGA is essentially a programmable FPGA
739 2013-03-03 16:03:27 <sipa> eh ASIC
740 2013-03-03 16:03:30 <sipa> an FPGA is essentially a programmable ASIC
741 2013-03-03 16:04:35 <OneMiner> FPGA is maybe more like a hardware programmable CPU. Same idea though.
742 2013-03-03 16:04:39 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: trying to debug this lcov thing where all pulls are considered testless...any guesses why lcov would miss lines in one run, but find them in another?
743 2013-03-03 16:05:53 chicagobitcoins has joined
744 2013-03-03 16:06:03 <sipa> BlueMatt: can you give an example of such a line?
745 2013-03-03 16:06:34 <BlueMatt> sipa: alert.cpp:161
746 2013-03-03 16:06:45 <BlueMatt> its identified as a line in the jenkins/master build: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/src/total.coverage/mnt/jenkins/jobs/Bitcoin/workspace/src/alert.cpp.gcov.html
747 2013-03-03 16:06:51 <BlueMatt> but not in a pull: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/091f18419011bfee6242270e52237f524ca23c8e/bitcoin/src/total.coverage/mnt/bitcoin/src/alert.cpp.gcov.html
748 2013-03-03 16:07:12 <BlueMatt> and there are lots of such lines, and some are identified in the pull but not jenkins/master, some the other way around
749 2013-03-03 16:08:16 <sipa> same build options?
750 2013-03-03 16:08:21 <sipa> same compiler, ...
751 2013-03-03 16:08:26 <BlueMatt> same script, same compiler, etc
752 2013-03-03 16:08:31 <sipa> hmm, weird
753 2013-03-03 16:08:38 <BlueMatt> same everything, one just happens to be in a chroot
754 2013-03-03 16:08:46 <Scrat> is there a list of well connected nodes somewhere?
755 2013-03-03 16:09:13 <BlueMatt> the fallback nodes list tends to not be bad...but the dnsseed-accepted nodes are probably just fine
756 2013-03-03 16:09:20 bock has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
757 2013-03-03 16:09:30 <BlueMatt> unless you know what you're doing, you probably dont need to use anything but the dnsseeds
758 2013-03-03 16:09:35 <Scrat> BlueMatt: but they are kinda random
759 2013-03-03 16:09:41 <BlueMatt> thats the point
760 2013-03-03 16:09:47 <jurov> Scrat, bitcoincharts has a list of where most blocks appeared first from
761 2013-03-03 16:10:02 <jurov> *er, no blockchain.info
762 2013-03-03 16:10:49 BurtyBB has quit (Quit: Leaving)
763 2013-03-03 16:10:49 <BlueMatt> Scrat: I know, at a minimum, my dnsseed checks for block height and download-ability when accepting nodes, so use that
764 2013-03-03 16:10:56 <BlueMatt> Id think sipa's does too
765 2013-03-03 16:13:26 chmod755 has quit (Quit: chmod755)
766 2013-03-03 16:13:54 <sipa> no, it doesn't
767 2013-03-03 16:14:01 <Scrat> ok so edit net.cpp and rebuild
768 2013-03-03 16:14:18 <sipa> ??
769 2013-03-03 16:14:52 <Scrat> hello sipa
770 2013-03-03 16:14:57 <BlueMatt> Scrat: what? no just run
771 2013-03-03 16:15:13 <sipa> Scrat: to do what?
772 2013-03-03 16:15:17 <BlueMatt> Scrat: finding isolated nodes is an incredibly rare issue...like an unheard of issue, for the most part
773 2013-03-03 16:17:32 <sipa> Scrat: you can use -addnode or -connect to specify which nodes to (try to) connect to manually
774 2013-03-03 16:17:41 <sipa> Scrat: you can use -nodnsseed to disable DNS seeding
775 2013-03-03 16:17:48 bock has joined
776 2013-03-03 16:18:32 <Scrat> sipa: I know, just want to connect to popular nodes in order to reduce the chance of double spends (yes yes I know, dont receive unconfirmed tx and yadda yadda)
777 2013-03-03 16:19:00 <sipa> ok, so use -addnode ?
778 2013-03-03 16:19:09 <BlueMatt> Scrat: that actually won't help
779 2013-03-03 16:19:37 <BlueMatt> Scrat: in order to address double spends you need to modify the code to warn about them, not just connect to more nodes
780 2013-03-03 16:19:41 monkeynipples has joined
781 2013-03-03 16:20:30 <Scrat> sipa: don't know which ones to add
782 2013-03-03 16:20:32 <Scrat> BlueMatt: ok
783 2013-03-03 16:20:42 <sipa> Scrat: well what would you modify in net.cpp then?
784 2013-03-03 16:21:12 <Scrat> sipa: this: [17:52] <BlueMatt> Scrat: I know, at a minimum, my dnsseed checks for block height and download-ability when accepting nodes, so use that
785 2013-03-03 16:21:12 bock has quit (Client Quit)
786 2013-03-03 16:21:35 <Scrat> comment out the other seeds
787 2013-03-03 16:21:36 <BlueMatt> Scrat: it already does, you dont have to change anything
788 2013-03-03 16:21:37 <Scrat> but its fine
789 2013-03-03 16:21:40 <BlueMatt> Scrat: no
790 2013-03-03 16:21:44 <BlueMatt> there is no reason to do that
791 2013-03-03 16:21:50 <BlueMatt> (it wont do what you are apparently thinking)
792 2013-03-03 16:21:53 <Scrat> alright calm down :p
793 2013-03-03 16:22:28 <BlueMatt> sorry, Ive been awake for like 20 hours at this point...
794 2013-03-03 16:23:25 monkeynipples has quit (Client Quit)
795 2013-03-03 16:24:21 abrkn has joined
796 2013-03-03 16:25:45 <Scrat> sipa: was kinda wondering what are good practices for a merchant oriented bitcoind, like turning off or firewalling listening
797 2013-03-03 16:26:47 wladston has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
798 2013-03-03 16:27:50 freakazoid has joined
799 2013-03-03 16:27:54 <BlueMatt> proxy listening, probably
800 2013-03-03 16:28:07 <BlueMatt> and (obviously) most of the coins in cold storage
801 2013-03-03 16:28:31 monkeynipples has joined
802 2013-03-03 16:28:38 <BTCOxygen> Warning: Warning: error reading wallet.dat! All keys read correctly, but transac tion data or address book entries might be missing or incorrect.
803 2013-03-03 16:28:48 <Scrat> BlueMatt: true that
804 2013-03-03 16:28:51 <BTCOxygen> ************************
805 2013-03-03 16:29:03 <BTCOxygen> EXCEPTION: St13runtime_error
806 2013-03-03 16:29:12 <BTCOxygen> CWalletTx::IsSpent() : nOut out of range
807 2013-03-03 16:29:19 <BTCOxygen> bitcoin in AppInit()
808 2013-03-03 16:29:22 <BTCOxygen> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
809 2013-03-03 16:29:27 <BTCOxygen> And bitcoind crashes
810 2013-03-03 16:30:11 <BTCOxygen> Any help?
811 2013-03-03 16:30:45 <sipa> BTCOxygen: i haven't seen that error, ever
812 2013-03-03 16:30:49 <sipa> what did you do?
813 2013-03-03 16:32:41 <BTCOxygen> sipa: ./bitcoind stop
814 2013-03-03 16:32:45 <BTCOxygen> then
815 2013-03-03 16:32:49 <BTCOxygen> sipa: ./bitcoind
816 2013-03-03 16:32:53 <BTCOxygen> Got that error
817 2013-03-03 16:33:02 <sipa> which version?
818 2013-03-03 16:33:07 <BTCOxygen> sipa: 0.7
819 2013-03-03 16:33:18 <BTCOxygen> Upgraded to 0.8 still same error
820 2013-03-03 16:33:30 <sipa> i'd suggest making a backup of wallet.dat, and running with -salvagewallet
821 2013-03-03 16:33:46 <sipa> but i don't understand how that error is possible in the first place
822 2013-03-03 16:33:58 <BTCOxygen> sipa: What does that parameter do?
823 2013-03-03 16:33:58 lottoBTC has joined
824 2013-03-03 16:34:08 <sipa> BTCOxygen: it tries to recover the wallet
825 2013-03-03 16:34:21 <sipa> by just reading the private keys in it, and creating a new one with those keys
826 2013-03-03 16:35:07 <ProfMac> what all is in a wallet?
827 2013-03-03 16:35:21 <lottoBTC> TO PLAY LOTTO BTC: http://www.lottobtc.com/
828 2013-03-03 16:35:43 <sipa> ProfMac: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3173/what-information-does-a-wallet-contain
829 2013-03-03 16:35:45 RBecker is now known as rbecker
830 2013-03-03 16:36:25 <BTCOxygen> sipa: What is wallet defragmentation ?
831 2013-03-03 16:36:41 <sipa> BTCOxygen: where do you read that?
832 2013-03-03 16:36:58 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
833 2013-03-03 16:36:59 <sipa> ProfMac: keys, transactions, account information, list of unused keys, encryption info (if encrypted), pointer to the last seen best block, ...
834 2013-03-03 16:37:13 <BTCOxygen> I heard slush saying that
835 2013-03-03 16:37:26 <Scrat> BTCOxygen: smartctl -a yourdrive, also check dmesg for i/o errors
836 2013-03-03 16:37:26 <BTCOxygen> Just curious to know what it means
837 2013-03-03 16:37:44 <sipa> BTCOxygen: it may refer to combining small coins in your wallet into larger ones
838 2013-03-03 16:37:48 da2ce7_d has joined
839 2013-03-03 16:38:56 <slush> BTCOxygen: I had tens of thousands transactions in one wallet, with tens of thousands keys, so I created new wallet and moved all coins there.
840 2013-03-03 16:39:01 <slush> Nothing magical
841 2013-03-03 16:39:35 <BTCOxygen> slush: Oh, So its just reducing the size of the wallet
842 2013-03-03 16:39:44 <BTCOxygen> My wallet is currently 20MB
843 2013-03-03 16:39:45 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
844 2013-03-03 16:40:04 <slush> yes
845 2013-03-03 16:41:44 <BTCOxygen> sipa: -salvagewallet is re-scanning the blockchain, Is that OK?
846 2013-03-03 16:41:57 <sipa> it will inevitably cause a rescan yes
847 2013-03-03 16:42:07 <sipa> to find your transactions
848 2013-03-03 16:42:45 <etotheipi_> sipa, gmaxwell, Luke-Jr, anyone else: any reasonable suggestions for how to securely/verifiably download bitcoin-qt installer in Windows without installing gpg4win to directly verify the download?
849 2013-03-03 16:42:47 <kritCoin> are there any fpga open source solution for bitcoin?
850 2013-03-03 16:43:08 <etotheipi_> the context is, I want the user's computer to automatically grab and execute the installer, but of course also know it got the right one
851 2013-03-03 16:43:40 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
852 2013-03-03 16:43:41 <sipa> etotheipi_: i personally wouldn't bother with that - just tell them they need to install bitcoind or bitcoin-qt?
853 2013-03-03 16:43:45 Quazgaa has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
854 2013-03-03 16:44:07 <etotheipi_> sipa: well I would personally bother with it
855 2013-03-03 16:44:11 <sipa> (i suppose i'm not helping)
856 2013-03-03 16:44:13 <etotheipi_> haha
857 2013-03-03 16:44:30 <etotheipi_> it's not only improving usability quite a bit, I can add some security by doing the checks for them
858 2013-03-03 16:44:37 bitit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
859 2013-03-03 16:44:37 <etotheipi_> which most users don't do
860 2013-03-03 16:44:40 bock has joined
861 2013-03-03 16:44:49 djoot has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
862 2013-03-03 16:45:07 nus has joined
863 2013-03-03 16:45:22 bitit has joined
864 2013-03-03 16:45:28 BurtyB has joined
865 2013-03-03 16:45:29 <sipa> etotheipi_: true, but that just moves the problem to users having a secure and verifiable version of armory
866 2013-03-03 16:45:53 <etotheipi_> sipa: sure... there's one point of failure instead of 2
867 2013-03-03 16:46:15 <etotheipi_> a compromised Armory OR Bitcoin-Qt is a compromise for them
868 2013-03-03 16:46:41 <sipa> etotheipi_: or a malicious Armory developer :p
869 2013-03-03 16:46:43 TD has joined
870 2013-03-03 16:46:50 <etotheipi_> but that's not the primary reason for doing this
871 2013-03-03 16:47:05 <etotheipi_> Armory is never going to get wider attention unless I can make it [appear to be] standalone
872 2013-03-03 16:47:07 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
873 2013-03-03 16:47:09 <etotheipi_> (and also bring down RAM requirements)
874 2013-03-03 16:47:29 <etotheipi_> both are in the works, I just want to make sure I'm not reducing security instead of adding it
875 2013-03-03 16:48:23 <BTCOxygen> etotheipi_: Are you the seveloper of Armory?
876 2013-03-03 16:48:25 <BTCOxygen> *developer
877 2013-03-03 16:48:42 <etotheipi_> hmm...maybe I can actually verify the sigs after all using Crypto++
878 2013-03-03 16:48:49 <etotheipi_> BTCOxygen: yes, I am
879 2013-03-03 16:49:23 <TD> muhoo: hey
880 2013-03-03 16:49:38 <sipa> etotheipi_: wait, do you mean reimplementing gpg from scratch? :S
881 2013-03-03 16:49:51 <etotheipi_> sipa: haha no
882 2013-03-03 16:49:58 <sipa> etotheipi_: if you do, i'd consider you both crazy and incompetent
883 2013-03-03 16:50:03 <etotheipi_> sipa: but I just realized that crypto++ may already have what's needed to do this
884 2013-03-03 16:50:07 <etotheipi_> i.e. gpg integrated already
885 2013-03-03 16:50:11 <sipa> oh
886 2013-03-03 16:50:30 <sipa> in that case, i may have to consider the crypto++ authors crazy and incompetent :p
887 2013-03-03 16:50:35 wladston has joined
888 2013-03-03 16:50:43 <TD> etotheipi_: if it becomes standalone, how will it be different to bitcoin-qt or multibit?
889 2013-03-03 16:50:55 <etotheipi_> TD: have you ever used Armory?
890 2013-03-03 16:51:06 <TD> i know it has some features that the other two lack for sure
891 2013-03-03 16:51:37 <etotheipi_> multiple, deterministic wallets, easy importing exporting of private keys, *offline wallet interface*... I think that makes it pretty significantly different
892 2013-03-03 16:51:40 <TD> but i mean, given the effort of changing armory to be standalone, would it be easier to reimplement those features in another client
893 2013-03-03 16:51:55 <TD> as it means either writing full verification code which is very hard, or spv mode
894 2013-03-03 16:52:04 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
895 2013-03-03 16:52:05 <BTCOxygen> etotheipi_: I would like to see Armory working without depending on bitcoins
896 2013-03-03 16:52:07 <BTCOxygen> etotheipi_: I would like to see Armory working without depending on bitcoind
897 2013-03-03 16:52:09 <BTCOxygen> lol
898 2013-03-03 16:52:20 <etotheipi_> BTCOxygen, TD: that's what bitcoind is for
899 2013-03-03 16:52:42 <etotheipi_> t odo that verification without having to reimplement my own crappy, buggy version of it that will reduce securty
900 2013-03-03 16:53:03 <PRab> etotheipi_: I have no problem with Armory depending on bitcoind!
901 2013-03-03 16:53:06 <BTCOxygen> etotheipi_: Is there a way you could merge bitcoind into Armory
902 2013-03-03 16:53:16 <etotheipi_> BTCOxygen: that's basically what I'm talking about right now
903 2013-03-03 16:53:33 BurtyBB has joined
904 2013-03-03 16:53:35 techlife has joined
905 2013-03-03 16:53:39 <etotheipi_> I'm not merging the codebases, I'm just managing the bitcoind instance in a separate process in the background so the user doesn't even realize it's there
906 2013-03-03 16:54:01 <etotheipi_> anything that requires re-releasing Armory if there's a critical update to Bitcoin-Qt is a no-go for me
907 2013-03-03 16:54:03 <BTCOxygen> I mean if its possible to merge the code
908 2013-03-03 16:54:11 <TD> oh, ok
909 2013-03-03 16:54:13 ThomasV has joined
910 2013-03-03 16:54:19 <TD> i misunderstood what you meant by making it standalone
911 2013-03-03 16:54:27 <kritCoin> how nany ppl here use icarus?
912 2013-03-03 16:54:58 <etotheipi_> so at the moment, I am just trying to figure out how to make sure I download the correct (secure) version of bitcoind/-qt for the user
913 2013-03-03 16:55:18 <etotheipi_> since I can't execute any GPG commands on Windows
914 2013-03-03 16:55:18 <sipa> etotheipi_: oh, you may need to know: 0.8.1 will do pre-allocating of block files slightly differently: when a block file is full, its unused padding will be dropped
915 2013-03-03 16:55:28 <etotheipi_> sipa: that's fine
916 2013-03-03 16:55:37 <etotheipi_> my code will ignore that
917 2013-03-03 16:55:40 <sipa> ok
918 2013-03-03 16:55:47 <etotheipi_> and soon I'll be switching off of using the blk files...
919 2013-03-03 16:55:54 <etotheipi_> (at least, I won't be using them as much)
920 2013-03-03 16:55:55 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
921 2013-03-03 16:55:56 <sipa> then what will you use?
922 2013-03-03 16:56:04 <etotheipi_> I'll do an initial scan of the blk files
923 2013-03-03 16:56:08 wladston has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
924 2013-03-03 16:56:11 <etotheipi_> then manage everything else through getblocks
925 2013-03-03 16:56:17 <etotheipi_> and store the data myself
926 2013-03-03 16:56:31 <sipa> duplicating the block data?
927 2013-03-03 16:56:34 <etotheipi_> at the very beginning I will be creating (duplicating) a full tx index...
928 2013-03-03 16:56:42 <etotheipi_> but then paring it down to only store relevant tx
929 2013-03-03 16:56:58 <sipa> just an index, or the actual data itself?
930 2013-03-03 16:57:13 <etotheipi_> I have gone through the code and realized Armory GUI doesn't really need the whole tx index
931 2013-03-03 16:57:27 <etotheipi_> but I want to have the capability to have a full index if I want
932 2013-03-03 16:57:34 <etotheipi_> sipa: the actual data
933 2013-03-03 16:57:43 <sipa> that sounds bad
934 2013-03-03 16:57:52 <etotheipi_> allowing me, in the future, to use non-localhost connections
935 2013-03-03 16:57:56 <etotheipi_> sipa: what do you mean?
936 2013-03-03 16:58:05 <sipa> people already complain loudly about the storage requirements
937 2013-03-03 16:58:09 Quazgaa has joined
938 2013-03-03 16:58:17 <etotheipi_> sipa: trust me, they complain much more loudly about Armory's RAM requirement
939 2013-03-03 16:58:33 <etotheipi_> :)
940 2013-03-03 16:58:39 <sipa> and as it seems you're mostly doing thing to improve wallet funcionality, i think you should focus on your wallet instead
941 2013-03-03 16:59:08 <etotheipi_> sipa: (1) I have a ton of problems having to do with asynchronously reading the blockfiles while bitcoind is writing to them
942 2013-03-03 16:59:08 <sipa> people who understand the need for full nodes on the network may be willing to store the full chain
943 2013-03-03 16:59:29 <etotheipi_> (2) I won't be duplicating the full blockchain, shortly afterwards
944 2013-03-03 16:59:32 <sipa> etotheipi_: i'm actually suggesting not depending on the full data at all
945 2013-03-03 16:59:40 <sipa> neither in bitcoind or your own
946 2013-03-03 16:59:41 <etotheipi_> I'll be switching to duplicating only the wallet-relevant tx
947 2013-03-03 17:00:17 <kritCoin> what is the wallet binary storage format
948 2013-03-03 17:00:22 <TD> Goonie: odd
949 2013-03-03 17:00:27 <kritCoin> is this somewhere descriobed?
950 2013-03-03 17:00:31 <etotheipi_> I just want the capability for the library to maintain a full index (and it's easiest for me right now)... then immediately afterwards I'll upgrade it to find and duplicate only wallet-relevant tx
951 2013-03-03 17:00:32 <TD> Goonie: i just opened bitcoin wallet and it was 20 months behind
952 2013-03-03 17:00:34 <kritCoin> is this somewhere described?
953 2013-03-03 17:00:34 <sipa> kritCoin: which client?
954 2013-03-03 17:00:36 <TD> Goonie: i'm sure it was synced previously
955 2013-03-03 17:00:52 <TD> oh
956 2013-03-03 17:00:53 <TD> crap
957 2013-03-03 17:00:54 <kritCoin> the qt client
958 2013-03-03 17:00:56 <TD> it went back to the market version
959 2013-03-03 17:01:00 <TD> that's annoying
960 2013-03-03 17:01:02 <Goonie> TD: is this the SPVStore version?
961 2013-03-03 17:01:10 <sipa> kritCoin: it's a BDB 4.8 database file
962 2013-03-03 17:01:19 <TD> Goonie: no never mind. i didn't spot the update notification in my notifybar
963 2013-03-03 17:01:20 <Goonie> TD: ah ok, that explains
964 2013-03-03 17:01:29 <TD> Goonie: i'll re-upgrade to the version you emailed me
965 2013-03-03 17:01:32 <sipa> kritCoin: with these keys in it: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3173/what-information-does-a-wallet-contain
966 2013-03-03 17:01:40 <TD> Goonie: the latest version is the one based on 0.7.1 right?
967 2013-03-03 17:01:49 <Goonie> TD: yes
968 2013-03-03 17:02:01 <etotheipi_> sipa: so I know this seems asanine, but I don't see a simpler way to do it: put the SHA256SUMS.asc text on my webserver, and sign it with one of my offline *bitcoin* keys ... obviously Armory can verify Bitcoin signatures
969 2013-03-03 17:02:06 <TD> ok. btw during replay the tx list kept scrolling to the top
970 2013-03-03 17:02:06 <Goonie> TD: I can mail you a new version soon, so you don't get bothered by update notifications
971 2013-03-03 17:02:12 <etotheipi_> (after I manually verify gavin's signatures)
972 2013-03-03 17:02:33 <TD> Goonie: it seems it forgot my address labels :(
973 2013-03-03 17:02:45 <etotheipi_> then when new versions of bitcoinqt are released, I only have to update that file, not release a whole new version of Armory
974 2013-03-03 17:02:49 <TD> oh wait
975 2013-03-03 17:02:55 <TD> because i restored my keys from backup. i forgot about that too :)
976 2013-03-03 17:03:03 <etotheipi_> (assuming Gavin doesn't change his signing key)
977 2013-03-03 17:03:22 <Goonie> TD: the scrolling to top is a known issue. I wonder what's the plan for the Wallet.getTransactions() API...
978 2013-03-03 17:03:24 <TD> Goonie: i think jim is right. backups should just be regular wallet backups. i'm not sure exports of just keys really make sense in future, as wallets will hold more and more useful stuff beyond keys
979 2013-03-03 17:03:52 <sipa> etotheipi_: so your failure points are: 1) your webserver gets hacked 2) sf download servers gets hacked 3) you don't properly do the checking in the client 4) your client download itself gets compromised ...
980 2013-03-03 17:04:07 <TD> Goonie: what's the issue with the current one? you mean the issue you filed about it getting too big?
981 2013-03-03 17:04:53 <sipa> wait not true
982 2013-03-03 17:05:00 <sipa> 1) isn't an issue
983 2013-03-03 17:05:43 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
984 2013-03-03 17:05:59 <etotheipi_> sipa: (2) isn't an issue
985 2013-03-03 17:06:22 <sipa> right, as long as you do the validation yourself properly
986 2013-03-03 17:06:23 <etotheipi_> and (4) is always an issue (rather, it's a given)
987 2013-03-03 17:06:36 BurtyBB has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
988 2013-03-03 17:06:42 <Goonie> TD: the current one does not make it easy to see what changed. and this might be necessary for avoiding the scrolling to top
989 2013-03-03 17:06:54 <sipa> etotheipi_: but right now, 4 will not cause people to get a corrupted bitcoind, so they won't accept invalid transactions
990 2013-03-03 17:07:05 <etotheipi_> sipa: true
991 2013-03-03 17:07:11 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
992 2013-03-03 17:07:15 <Goonie> TD: currently, I just replace the whole list in the adapter on each change
993 2013-03-03 17:07:29 <etotheipi_> sipa: but this is only done if thye don't have Bitcoin-Qt installed already
994 2013-03-03 17:07:41 <etotheipi_> which is basically users new to Bitcoin
995 2013-03-03 17:08:25 <etotheipi_> most people downloading will already have Bitcoin-Qt on their machine and (4) is a very minor concern (plus there will be a link for them if they want to go do it themselves)
996 2013-03-03 17:08:47 <sipa> ok
997 2013-03-03 17:08:51 <TD> Goonie: seems like a simple fix would be to update the list based on the individual callbacks ⦠when a new tx is received, add an element, and register confidence listeners for the rest.
998 2013-03-03 17:08:54 <Goonie> TD: I mean, I can probably improve this with some effort. I just wanted to ask if there are any plans for changing the API, like sending "DB transactions (INSERT/DELETE/UPDATE) of Bitcoin transactions" with the events?
999 2013-03-03 17:09:11 <sipa> etotheipi_: still, i think it will cause a ton of work for you, and i'm not convinced about the security
1000 2013-03-03 17:09:12 <TD> the event listeners already give you deltas, more or less
1001 2013-03-03 17:09:14 <etotheipi_> sipa: do I sound crazy? I really don't like this... I'd much rather just have GPG available
1002 2013-03-03 17:09:27 <etotheipi_> but Windows isn't making it easy for me
1003 2013-03-03 17:09:38 <Goonie> TD: I think its not complete, this is why we introduced the onChanged()
1004 2013-03-03 17:09:41 <TD> Goonie: onCoinsReceived gives you the transaction
1005 2013-03-03 17:09:49 <sipa> etotheipi_: oh, then first tell them to install an operating system? ;)
1006 2013-03-03 17:09:55 <sipa> *ducks*
1007 2013-03-03 17:09:58 <etotheipi_> sipa: haha
1008 2013-03-03 17:10:28 <TD> Goonie: you can just have a flag. if onCoinsReceived/Sent decides to take action by updating the list, set a flag and then have onChange do nothing except reset the flag, when it's set
1009 2013-03-03 17:10:45 <PRab> etotheipi_: Why can't you use the windows signature (from the Bitcoin Foundation) instead of GPG?
1010 2013-03-03 17:11:22 <etotheipi_> PRab: how do I enforce that?
1011 2013-03-03 17:11:24 <TD> Goonie: same for onTransactionConfidenceChanged
1012 2013-03-03 17:11:43 <etotheipi_> or rather, how can I check that from inside a python script in Windows?
1013 2013-03-03 17:12:04 <TD> Goonie: we added onWalletChanged() for efficiency during block replay/catchup
1014 2013-03-03 17:12:05 <etotheipi_> that is actually a reasonable solution, I forgot the installers with code-signed
1015 2013-03-03 17:12:06 <PRab> In python can you call arbitrary windows DLL's?
1016 2013-03-03 17:12:15 <Goonie> TD: that sounds more like a kludge. I'm interested in the long term plan.
1017 2013-03-03 17:12:29 <TD> Goonie: it's called once per block rather than once per transaction
1018 2013-03-03 17:12:43 <etotheipi_> PRab: yeah, I should be able to call anything on their system that doesn't require admin
1019 2013-03-03 17:12:52 <TD> Goonie: i don't understand. you're asking for an API that tells you what changed, but there already is one. you just aren't using it because doing a full refresh when anything changes is simpler.
1020 2013-03-03 17:12:58 <etotheipi_> preferably if it's in an entirely deterministic location
1021 2013-03-03 17:13:13 <PRab> I would need to look up the API, but I did something similar to this before.
1022 2013-03-03 17:13:16 cheebydi has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1023 2013-03-03 17:13:25 <PRab> Just a few seconds let me look at MSDN.
1024 2013-03-03 17:13:26 ralphthe1inja is now known as ralphtheninja
1025 2013-03-03 17:14:58 <Goonie> TD: I will look into it again. Probably you are right. But in my memory I cannot get the complete delta from the other callbacks
1026 2013-03-03 17:15:22 <Goonie> Maybe things have changed since last summer
1027 2013-03-03 17:15:51 <TD> Goonie: the way it evolved was this - you have code that converts getTransactions() into the ui objects. now the issue is when replaying the block chain, every time a transaction changed its confidence (because there was a new block on top of it, for instance), the entire ui would refresh, which was very slow.
1028 2013-03-03 17:15:54 <PRab> etotheipi_: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa370121(v=vs.85).aspx
1029 2013-03-03 17:16:09 cheebydi has joined
1030 2013-03-03 17:16:26 <TD> Goonie: so I added an onWalletChanged() event that would be invoked only once per block, and could encompass multiple changes, so obviously, it does not tell you what changed. the existing events were still there. so your refresh code can be invoked from onWalletChanged and now it's efficient again.
1031 2013-03-03 17:16:52 <TD> Goonie: the other callbacks give you all the data you need to adjust the UI objects but it means more code, to examine what changed and update only the part of the ui that changed, instead of rebuilding it from scratch
1032 2013-03-03 17:17:14 <TD> it may not be worthwhile. but then again, if you want to support very long transaction histories, it will become necessary
1033 2013-03-03 17:17:15 <PRab> etotheipi_: Looks like the installer is currently an exe so I don't know if that would work directly, but thats the general idea.
1034 2013-03-03 17:17:25 <etotheipi_> PRab: thanks, I'll look into it
1035 2013-03-03 17:17:48 <etotheipi_> this may be a bit of work...
1036 2013-03-03 17:18:07 <PRab> everything worthwhile is...
1037 2013-03-03 17:18:34 <etotheipi_> well sure... but I like things that aren't super-windows specfiic
1038 2013-03-03 17:18:42 <Goonie> TD: ok then, some questions. If I call getTransactions() to get the initial state, how should I attach listeners so that I don't get a new transaction I already have and I also don't miss a tx?
1039 2013-03-03 17:18:46 <etotheipi_> but yeah, I
1040 2013-03-03 17:19:02 <etotheipi_> I'll look into it ... I don't pass up a solution that is exactly what I want
1041 2013-03-03 17:19:12 <Goonie> TD: when a reorg is done, I don't get any changes I guess.
1042 2013-03-03 17:19:31 <TD> Goonie: there is an onReorganize() event. it's probably easiest to just rebuild everything then. re-orgs are rare.
1043 2013-03-03 17:19:32 <PRab> agreed, Windows lives out in its own little island.
1044 2013-03-03 17:19:57 <lottoBTC> TO PLAY LOTTO BTC: http://www.lottobtc.com/
1045 2013-03-03 17:20:10 <etotheipi_> I especially hate working with those damned "LPCTSTR" types, etc
1046 2013-03-03 17:20:25 <TD> Goonie: if you use onCoinsReceived/onCoinsSent() then you get Transaction objects. you can add a listener to their confidence objects until they reach a point where the ui won't change anymore (like the circle is full). once that happens, the listener can just unregister itself.
1047 2013-03-03 17:20:59 <TD> Goonie: if it helps, I can add a way to attach user-provided objects to Transaction objects. but it may be simpler for you to just have a HashMap<Transaction, ListRow> or whatever android uses
1048 2013-03-03 17:21:01 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1049 2013-03-03 17:21:27 <Goonie> TD: Android uses ListAdapters
1050 2013-03-03 17:21:50 <etotheipi_> I already dealt with it once when trying to use the equivalent of mmap() in windows... it was a mess
1051 2013-03-03 17:22:57 <Goonie> TD: I'll look into it, it might be worth it. The current code is really inefficient
1052 2013-03-03 17:23:41 <PRab> I'm a windows developer, and even I don't like to mess with those things. I tend to try to stay in the comfort of the .Net framework.
1053 2013-03-03 17:23:43 <etotheipi_> oh cool, I finally found an example of using MsiGetFileSignatureInformation ... from 1999
1054 2013-03-03 17:25:52 bitafterbit has joined
1055 2013-03-03 17:26:01 Lolcust has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1056 2013-03-03 17:26:23 <PRab> wow, I didn't even realize MSIs were that old. I never used them until late into XP (probably 2004-2005).
1057 2013-03-03 17:26:36 <TD> Goonie: yeah. so I suppose what you need is to define your own adapter which contains a reference inside it to a Transaction, and when it's first created, it checks the confidence and if it thinks that tx will change, register a confidence listener. then when asked to provide a view it just examines the confidence object to do so. or it can copy the data it needs out so there's no chance of blocking.
1058 2013-03-03 17:27:01 buddyrandom has joined
1059 2013-03-03 17:27:29 <TD> Goonie: sorry, I meant an ArrayAdapter, I guess
1060 2013-03-03 17:27:47 <TD> Goonie: some events like a re-organize or loading a wallet would have to use getTransactions() and the rest would just update the list based on the callbacks.
1061 2013-03-03 17:27:54 Shealan has joined
1062 2013-03-03 17:29:26 <TD> Goonie: longer term, the bitcoinj API is going to add another layer on top of transaction objects, it'll gain a notion of payments
1063 2013-03-03 17:29:31 buddyrand has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1064 2013-03-03 17:29:34 <TD> Goonie: where a payment may contain multiple transactions and other data.
1065 2013-03-03 17:30:02 i2pRelay has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1066 2013-03-03 17:30:15 <TD> Goonie: but the API will probably be similar-ish
1067 2013-03-03 17:31:08 <Goonie> TD: interesting
1068 2013-03-03 17:31:13 <Goonie> TD: thanks for your input
1069 2013-03-03 17:31:16 i2pRelay has joined
1070 2013-03-03 17:31:26 <TD> np
1071 2013-03-03 17:32:01 K1773R is now known as K1773R|OFF
1072 2013-03-03 17:32:07 <etotheipi_> PRab: all I see is references to calling it from C++... you think there's an executable that will do the same thing for me?
1073 2013-03-03 17:32:44 <etotheipi_> I could make a simple C++ function that does it... and imports all the windows libraries
1074 2013-03-03 17:32:59 <TD> http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/ca90f1b4-83ff-11e2-b700-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2MUvaXcOM
1075 2013-03-03 17:33:05 <TD> interesting
1076 2013-03-03 17:33:18 <etotheipi_> meh, I might as well just do the C++ thing... I have a 10k lines of C++ already, what's a few more? :)
1077 2013-03-03 17:33:36 <PRab> Executable, I haven't heard of one, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
1078 2013-03-03 17:34:06 <etotheipi_> ahhh... so much to do, so little time...
1079 2013-03-03 17:34:16 <PRab> I would tend to wrap the call you want into a DLL and then use that/
1080 2013-03-03 17:34:34 <lottoBTC> TO PLAY LOTTO BTC: http://www.lottobtc.com/
1081 2013-03-03 17:34:35 bitit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1082 2013-03-03 17:34:59 <etotheipi_> PRab: I'll just make some separate C++ calls and conditionally include them (via preprocessor)
1083 2013-03-03 17:35:13 <etotheipi_> it's all going into a DLL
1084 2013-03-03 17:35:19 <PRab> Sounds good to me.
1085 2013-03-03 17:35:30 <etotheipi_> i mean, all 10k lines of code end up in a DLL, called from python anyway, I'll just add this
1086 2013-03-03 17:35:53 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1087 2013-03-03 17:36:22 <etotheipi_> oh crap, I missed the part where you mentioned it was an exe
1088 2013-03-03 17:36:55 <PRab> Oh...
1089 2013-03-03 17:37:23 <etotheipi_> oh, I bet it's just a zip file...
1090 2013-03-03 17:37:36 reizuki__ has joined
1091 2013-03-03 17:37:41 <PRab> I was able to open it with 7-zip.
1092 2013-03-03 17:38:13 <etotheipi_> gah, regular unzip does not work
1093 2013-03-03 17:38:20 <lottoBTC> mimosa
1094 2013-03-03 17:39:51 <kritCoin> is there a description of the blockchain fileformat?
1095 2013-03-03 17:40:18 <etotheipi_> PRab: yeah, 7zip opens it, but I can't tell what algo it used
1096 2013-03-03 17:40:21 toffoo has joined
1097 2013-03-03 17:41:13 <PRab> etotheipi_: click the "info" button
1098 2013-03-03 17:41:14 B0g4r7 has joined
1099 2013-03-03 17:41:21 <PRab> Looks like it is LZMA:23
1100 2013-03-03 17:41:35 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: do coders dream of sheep()?)
1101 2013-03-03 17:41:37 BurtyB has joined
1102 2013-03-03 17:43:08 <etotheipi_> kritCoin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88208.msg1408092#msg1408092
1103 2013-03-03 17:43:12 Diablo-D3 has joined
1104 2013-03-03 17:43:43 <etotheipi_> the files just repeat like that, each one starting with the magic bytes
1105 2013-03-03 17:44:01 <PRab> etotheipi_: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa382384%28VS.85%29.aspx
1106 2013-03-03 17:44:02 djoot has joined
1107 2013-03-03 17:44:02 djoot has quit (Changing host)
1108 2013-03-03 17:44:02 djoot has joined
1109 2013-03-03 17:44:21 <sipa> kritCoin: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_Specification
1110 2013-03-03 17:44:22 <etotheipi_> PRab: thanks!
1111 2013-03-03 17:44:50 <sipa> kritCoin: the block files consist of the 4-byte network magic, a 4-byte length descriptor, and then a block in network serialized form
1112 2013-03-03 17:47:23 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1113 2013-03-03 17:48:50 Lolcust has joined
1114 2013-03-03 17:50:50 egecko has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
1115 2013-03-03 17:54:34 unknown45682 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1116 2013-03-03 17:54:59 unknown45682 has joined
1117 2013-03-03 18:00:57 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: do coders dream of sheep()?)
1118 2013-03-03 18:02:31 Diablo-D3 has joined
1119 2013-03-03 18:11:28 <Scrat> Goonie: just converting a float to string and/or cutting off zeros in the end. if you're reading float after float then an integer all of a sudden throws you off, so 1 btc becomes 1.00
1120 2013-03-03 18:11:37 <Scrat> Goonie: your client had the correct behavior last I checked
1121 2013-03-03 18:11:42 <Scrat> was a few months ago tho
1122 2013-03-03 18:13:47 <muhoo> ;;ticker
1123 2013-03-03 18:13:47 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 34.01767, Best ask: 34.24698, Bid-ask spread: 0.22931, Last trade: 34.01767, 24 hour volume: 11656.09846742, 24 hour low: 33.80000, 24 hour high: 34.37000, 24 hour vwap: 34.06139
1124 2013-03-03 18:14:14 <muhoo> oh, that's kind of nice. the price has stabilized, but the volume looks like it's going through the roof. nice.
1125 2013-03-03 18:15:58 Mandrius has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1126 2013-03-03 18:16:01 Guest34720 has quit ()
1127 2013-03-03 18:16:37 Cory has joined
1128 2013-03-03 18:17:16 <TD> muhoo: wealth being redistributed, it seems
1129 2013-03-03 18:17:43 <muhoo> mtgox/coinbase merger?
1130 2013-03-03 18:18:00 <TD> nah, things were taking off before that too
1131 2013-03-03 18:18:34 <TD> i don't see a big volume spike, though, looking at the homepage graphs
1132 2013-03-03 18:18:35 <etotheipi_> PRab: you think there's a way to to adapt that code to expect a given signer? it seems that it will check whether there is *a* valid sig traceable to a root CA, but it would pass if it was replaced with any other sig traceable to a root CA
1133 2013-03-03 18:20:24 <muhoo> oic, the volume isn't a spike, i just haven't noticed in a while.
1134 2013-03-03 18:21:03 MCM-Mike_ is now known as MCM-Mike
1135 2013-03-03 18:21:21 <etotheipi_> PRab: actually, the first thing the app does when you try to install it is pop up a UAC window saying "Verified publisher: The Bitcoin Foundation, Inc"... perhaps that's enough in and of itself, to tell the user to verify that before continuing
1136 2013-03-03 18:21:25 egecko has joined
1137 2013-03-03 18:22:36 <etotheipi_> if UAC is compromised, then there's not much I could do to save that user
1138 2013-03-03 18:24:39 BTCTrader2 has joined
1139 2013-03-03 18:25:41 Zarutian has joined
1140 2013-03-03 18:29:41 bitafterbit_ has joined
1141 2013-03-03 18:29:55 reizuki__ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1142 2013-03-03 18:30:33 bitafterbit has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1143 2013-03-03 18:35:54 ThomasV has joined
1144 2013-03-03 18:40:26 xjrn has joined
1145 2013-03-03 18:41:43 bitafterbit has joined
1146 2013-03-03 18:43:46 toffoo has quit ()
1147 2013-03-03 18:44:35 bitafterbit_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1148 2013-03-03 18:49:00 Pucilowski_ is now known as Pucilowski
1149 2013-03-03 18:50:52 <PRab> etotheipi_: I don't know if I would trust UAC for that purpose. It would tell the user that they are running a signed exe, but the user wouldn't know/care who was supposed to sign the exe (attacker could just sign malicious exe).
1150 2013-03-03 18:51:18 <etotheipi_> PRab: I guess the question is, is it any worse than the user doing it themselves?
1151 2013-03-03 18:51:54 <etotheipi_> would malicious attacker be able to get a CA-signed cert with a name very close to "The Bitcoin Foundation, Inc"?
1152 2013-03-03 18:52:30 <PRab> If you are trusting the user to do it themselves, I would just provide a link to the download.
1153 2013-03-03 18:52:31 <sipa> i wouldn't depend on it not being able to do so
1154 2013-03-03 18:52:36 <etotheipi_> I guess it would be idea for me to hard-code the cert
1155 2013-03-03 18:52:39 <etotheipi_> *ideal*
1156 2013-03-03 18:53:01 <PRab> Thats what I was assuming you would do.
1157 2013-03-03 18:53:20 <etotheipi_> PRab: yeah, I'm just overwhelmed by all the windows-ness
1158 2013-03-03 18:53:28 <etotheipi_> looking for excuses to not do it :)
1159 2013-03-03 18:53:56 <etotheipi_> but you're right, asking the user to do anything here is not good
1160 2013-03-03 18:53:58 <ThomasV> hi etotheipi_ ; any news concerning bip32 approval?
1161 2013-03-03 18:54:00 <PRab> This is all 100% windows exclusive.
1162 2013-03-03 18:54:16 <sipa> ThomasV: no
1163 2013-03-03 18:54:29 <sipa> sorry for the delay, i've been busy
1164 2013-03-03 18:54:38 chmod755 has joined
1165 2013-03-03 18:54:45 <ThomasV> sipa: no problem.
1166 2013-03-03 18:56:01 <kritCoin> bfgminer was made soly for eligius?
1167 2013-03-03 18:56:56 <PRab> etotheipi_: You can always count on users just clicking "Next" without regard for security implications. IMO, it either needs to be truly secure (validate sigs, etc.) or just provide recommended directions on how to preform an action (provide a link to to bitcoind).
1168 2013-03-03 18:56:58 <sipa> bfgminer is a fork of cgminer, which is a fork of cpuminer
1169 2013-03-03 18:57:40 <etotheipi_> PRab: yeah, I was thinking of popping up a warning just before starting the installer and that's all it said was to verify that...
1170 2013-03-03 18:57:47 <etotheipi_> but I agree, if I'm going to do it at all, I should just do it 100%
1171 2013-03-03 18:58:12 <PRab> etotheipi_: +1
1172 2013-03-03 18:58:36 <etotheipi_> I just don't want to deal with LPCWSTRs ever again
1173 2013-03-03 18:58:39 <sipa> any system that relies on telling the user what to verify is flawed, imho
1174 2013-03-03 18:58:49 <sipa> as an attacker will tell the user something else
1175 2013-03-03 18:58:55 <etotheipi_> sipa: so the current state of bitcoin is, too
1176 2013-03-03 18:59:16 <kritCoin> i cant find a binary good description of blockchain
1177 2013-03-03 18:59:19 <sipa> unfortunately
1178 2013-03-03 18:59:21 <etotheipi_> there's always compromises to be made... but I agree this is not a place for me to compromised
1179 2013-03-03 18:59:23 <etotheipi_> *compromise
1180 2013-03-03 18:59:30 <sipa> kritCoin: i gave you the link
1181 2013-03-03 18:59:31 <kritCoin> does anyone have a good source on github
1182 2013-03-03 18:59:47 <kritCoin> sipa, cool
1183 2013-03-03 19:01:24 <kritCoin> sipa a link would be nice)
1184 2013-03-03 19:04:54 <etotheipi_> kritCoin: I gave you a link above (very very simple explanation of the binary structure of the blockfile), sipa gave you a link right after that with the full specification
1185 2013-03-03 19:05:27 <kritCoin> i dont like simple links
1186 2013-03-03 19:05:56 <kritCoin> i didnt see sipas link if he gave one lemmi look
1187 2013-03-03 19:06:41 <etotheipi_> kritCoin: my explanation was simple because the file format is stupid-simple... if you already know how headers and tx are serialized
1188 2013-03-03 19:07:41 <sipa> kritCoin: then scroll up
1189 2013-03-03 19:07:42 <kritCoin> unfortunatly one would never know because,..., the dont know before hand, chicken and egg thing
1190 2013-03-03 19:08:00 <kritCoin> circular reasoning
1191 2013-03-03 19:08:07 <kritCoin> i read the wiki now
1192 2013-03-03 19:08:25 <kritCoin> the full description is better, thanks sipa
1193 2013-03-03 19:08:30 <sipa> kritCoin: the block files just consists of a concatenation of 'block' structures, prefixed with a network magic and length descriptor
1194 2013-03-03 19:13:59 coolsa has joined
1195 2013-03-03 19:14:32 dvide has joined
1196 2013-03-03 19:14:46 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1197 2013-03-03 19:14:59 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1198 2013-03-03 19:19:50 i2pRelay has joined
1199 2013-03-03 19:20:04 ielo is now known as amiller
1200 2013-03-03 19:20:34 amiller is now known as Guest43478
1201 2013-03-03 19:20:45 Guest43478 is now known as _amiller
1202 2013-03-03 19:21:49 <kritCoin> i installed bitcoin qt version
1203 2013-03-03 19:21:51 <kritCoin> i looked in program files/bitcoin
1204 2013-03-03 19:21:54 <kritCoin> where do i find the blockchain?
1205 2013-03-03 19:22:04 <kritCoin> i dont see it
1206 2013-03-03 19:22:55 xjrn has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1207 2013-03-03 19:26:59 _chrisftw_ has joined
1208 2013-03-03 19:27:11 gwillen has joined
1209 2013-03-03 19:27:11 <sipa> kritCoin: they are stored in the datadir, search for datadir on the wiki, it tells you where it is on several OS'es
1210 2013-03-03 19:27:22 <sipa> also, can you take this to #bitcoin ?
1211 2013-03-03 19:28:56 <kritCoin> i would rather stay in bitcoin-dev
1212 2013-03-03 19:29:26 <kritCoin> to much nonsense in bitcoin3
1213 2013-03-03 19:29:31 <kritCoin> to much nonsense in bitcoin#
1214 2013-03-03 19:29:49 <gmaxwell> You're welcome to stay in #bitcoin-dev, but take the basic tech support to #bitcoin. If nonsense gets in your way I'll kick it out of there.
1215 2013-03-03 19:30:10 petertodd has left ()
1216 2013-03-03 19:30:13 petertodd has joined
1217 2013-03-03 19:31:30 <kritCoin> you own bitcoin-dev?
1218 2013-03-03 19:31:45 <TD> he's an op
1219 2013-03-03 19:32:10 <kritCoin> i dont see him opping in dev
1220 2013-03-03 19:32:20 <TD> happy now?
1221 2013-03-03 19:33:01 <gmaxwell> Shall I banforward you to #bitcoin now? geesh. I wasn't trying to be rude, but reallyâ the basic stuff should be in #bitcoin, it'll help keep the stupid on a low boil in there.
1222 2013-03-03 19:33:23 <kritCoin> i like to become dev active
1223 2013-03-03 19:33:43 <kritCoin> so i think my questions about c- coding etc belong here
1224 2013-03-03 19:33:44 <sipa> also, you are welcome to ask questions here if they are about more internal stuff
1225 2013-03-03 19:33:44 <ThomasV> kritCoin: I'm looking forward to it
1226 2013-03-03 19:34:14 <_chrisftw_> hey dudes,whats the average time at the moment for an exchange to process a transaction? assuming a minimum fee payment?
1227 2013-03-03 19:34:38 <sipa> define 'process' ?
1228 2013-03-03 19:35:26 <PRab> ;;goxlag
1229 2013-03-03 19:35:27 <gribble> 0 seconds
1230 2013-03-03 19:36:01 <_chrisftw_> well i sent a payment to coinbase - but it still says pending - after 15 minutes
1231 2013-03-03 19:36:08 <_chrisftw_> am I doing something wrong?
1232 2013-03-03 19:36:13 <TD> a payment of what?
1233 2013-03-03 19:36:15 <TD> bitcoins?
1234 2013-03-03 19:36:22 <sipa> well they probably wait for the transaction to confirm
1235 2013-03-03 19:36:30 <_chrisftw_> yes, from one address to a coinbase address both mine
1236 2013-03-03 19:36:39 <sipa> which may take an hour or so
1237 2013-03-03 19:36:51 <_chrisftw_> thank you sipa - is there anyway to drastically reduce this?
1238 2013-03-03 19:36:55 <_chrisftw_> building a site you see
1239 2013-03-03 19:36:58 <sipa> processing on the side of the receiver is instant apart from that
1240 2013-03-03 19:37:05 <_chrisftw_> oh
1241 2013-03-03 19:37:11 <TD> _chrisftw_: bitcoin payments become visible in seconds
1242 2013-03-03 19:37:19 <_chrisftw_> right
1243 2013-03-03 19:37:27 <TD> _chrisftw_: it's up to the recipient how long to wait before deciding that it's safe to use
1244 2013-03-03 19:37:35 <_chrisftw_> so I assume a tran confirm takes place after the next block is erm mined?
1245 2013-03-03 19:37:44 <TD> _chrisftw_: exchanges are the most obvious targets for double spend fraud so they tend to be conservative.
1246 2013-03-03 19:37:50 <sipa> yes, typically after 6 blovks
1247 2013-03-03 19:37:53 <sipa> blocks
1248 2013-03-03 19:38:04 <TD> _chrisftw_: they can wait as long as they like. gox waits for 6 == ~1 hr
1249 2013-03-03 19:38:05 <_chrisftw_> and a block is mined once every 15 mins or so
1250 2013-03-03 19:38:09 <gmaxwell> _chrisftw_: you should ask coinbase to process coinbase to coinbase transactions internally and instantly.
1251 2013-03-03 19:38:17 <TD> in theory you could have an exchange where deposits are instant, but i'd not recommend it
1252 2013-03-03 19:38:25 asuk has joined
1253 2013-03-03 19:38:27 <_chrisftw_> ok
1254 2013-03-03 19:38:45 <_chrisftw_> so I need to understandthe "double spend problem" which is fought by delaying confirmations by an hour
1255 2013-03-03 19:38:53 <_chrisftw_> thanks guys
1256 2013-03-03 19:39:52 <sipa> _chrisftw_: the bitcoin block chain system makes sure that the world obtains one single globally consist view on the order of transactions, where no transacrion conflicts with another (spending the same funds twice)
1257 2013-03-03 19:39:53 <TD> that is again, possibly more appropriate for #bitcoin
1258 2013-03-03 19:40:20 <sipa> however it doesn't guarantee this immediately - nodes may temporarily disagree about the order of recent events
1259 2013-03-03 19:40:42 <sipa> however, the longer you wait, it becomes rxponentially less likely for disagreement to remain
1260 2013-03-03 19:42:08 <nanotube> TD: so... being a googlian, you could be a good person to ask: what's your thought on trying to get bitcoin into gsoc2013?
1261 2013-03-03 19:43:18 <TD> neat idea
1262 2013-03-03 19:43:27 <TD> go for it
1263 2013-03-03 19:44:03 denisx has joined
1264 2013-03-03 19:44:11 justmoon has joined
1265 2013-03-03 19:44:23 <sipa> justmoon!
1266 2013-03-03 19:44:27 <gmaxwell> hah. "Being a human, you could be a good person to ask: what's your thoughts on the favorite gifts for the leader of north korea?" ... To do GSOC we need people willing to mentor and we need to go through the org application process.
1267 2013-03-03 19:44:39 <justmoon> sipa: Hey :)
1268 2013-03-03 19:44:57 <TD> dude
1269 2013-03-03 19:45:03 * justmoon feels guilty for only coming only in order to check #ripple-market :P
1270 2013-03-03 19:45:08 <justmoon> online*
1271 2013-03-03 19:45:14 <TD> tsk
1272 2013-03-03 19:45:18 <nanotube> i don't know enough bitcoin internals, or the testing framework in particular, so i can't really be a mentor for getting a bitcoin testing project (which is what gavin wanted to target) up to gsoc. anyone want to volunteer? :)
1273 2013-03-03 19:45:23 <nanotube> howdy justmoon :) ltns
1274 2013-03-03 19:45:33 <justmoon> Hey nanotube!
1275 2013-03-03 19:45:49 <sipa> for GSoC we'd need a few cobcreye proposals and people willing to mentor
1276 2013-03-03 19:45:51 <nanotube> gmaxwell: yea org app deadline is mar29.
1277 2013-03-03 19:45:54 <sipa> *concrete
1278 2013-03-03 19:46:16 <nanotube> i guess if nobody's got any time to spare, it's dead in the water...
1279 2013-03-03 19:46:25 <sipa> students can propose their own, and this is encouraged, but having some ready made proposals is certainly needed
1280 2013-03-03 19:47:05 <sipa> i'm not sure about mentoring requirements
1281 2013-03-03 19:47:12 <kritCoin> i found the blockchain
1282 2013-03-03 19:47:17 OneMiner is now known as OneMinerX
1283 2013-03-03 19:47:31 <kritCoin> its a sort of database in appdata
1284 2013-03-03 19:47:35 <gmaxwell> We may want to consider having qualification tasks, which have been used to great successes by some groups.
1285 2013-03-03 19:48:00 OneMinerX is now known as OneMiner
1286 2013-03-03 19:48:12 <lottoBTC> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37Hr01X-8SM&feature=player_embedded
1287 2013-03-03 19:48:22 <lottoBTC> TO PLAY LOTTO BTC: http://www.lottobtc.com/
1288 2013-03-03 19:48:44 <sipa> lottoBTC: go spam somewhere else
1289 2013-03-03 19:49:24 grau has joined
1290 2013-03-03 19:50:19 <justmoon> sipa, TD: Any chance you guys would be up for a bitcoin-switzerland meetup soonish?
1291 2013-03-03 19:50:27 <sipa> sure
1292 2013-03-03 19:50:31 <TD> i was thinking about that today actually
1293 2013-03-03 19:50:40 buddyrand has joined
1294 2013-03-03 19:50:41 <TD> i've been busy with a bunch of adhoc mini-meets lately
1295 2013-03-03 19:50:42 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1296 2013-03-03 19:50:46 <justmoon> Awesome, sooo much to talk about! :D
1297 2013-03-03 19:50:47 <TD> but it'd be good to have a proper one
1298 2013-03-03 19:50:54 <TD> so you're back from CA?
1299 2013-03-03 19:51:08 <justmoon> Yeah, I'm working on getting a permanent visa at the moment.
1300 2013-03-03 19:51:44 <justmoon> The plan is to work 4 months in US, 8 months in Switzerland each year.
1301 2013-03-03 19:51:47 <TD> hmm, i was just reading about how unfriendly california is to financial innovation
1302 2013-03-03 19:51:55 <TD> sure you want to live there? :)
1303 2013-03-03 19:52:14 <justmoon> See above. I'll stay a proud Swiss resident for tax purposes. ;)
1304 2013-03-03 19:52:21 <sipa> haha
1305 2013-03-03 19:52:23 <justmoon> Also there's no guarantee I'll even get a visa.
1306 2013-03-03 19:52:43 <TD> ah you need a visa even for 4 months on/8 months off
1307 2013-03-03 19:53:26 <justmoon> Well, VISA waiver let's you go 3 months at a time, but people who have done that 3-4 times have gotten banned from the US entirely - VISA waiver abuse.
1308 2013-03-03 19:53:33 <TD> huh
1309 2013-03-03 19:53:44 <TD> i assume that's 3 or 4 times more or less consecutively
1310 2013-03-03 19:53:48 <sipa> just need multiple identities :p
1311 2013-03-03 19:53:48 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1312 2013-03-03 19:53:55 * TD has been loads of times via the waiver program
1313 2013-03-03 19:54:06 <justmoon> Hmm.
1314 2013-03-03 19:54:12 <TD> the name of which annoys me, because you still need to pay money and provide your information before you leave to get a permit to go (esta)
1315 2013-03-03 19:54:25 buddyrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1316 2013-03-03 19:54:30 <TD> which is basically a visa-lite
1317 2013-03-03 19:54:42 <justmoon> Yeah.
1318 2013-03-03 19:54:53 <TD> i guess in my case i've only ever stayed up to the 90 day deadline once though
1319 2013-03-03 19:54:59 <TD> so perhaps that's why it's never been an issue
1320 2013-03-03 19:55:23 <TD> how is ripple going btw?
1321 2013-03-03 19:55:29 <kritCoin> i get the feeling the blockchain database looks a bit like foxpro
1322 2013-03-03 19:55:35 <justmoon> Awesome, amazing, incredible. :D
1323 2013-03-03 19:55:46 <kritCoin> files are in chunks of 131MB
1324 2013-03-03 19:55:57 <kritCoin> there is an index directory
1325 2013-03-03 19:56:26 <sipa> kritCoin: the block files are not a database, they just contain concatenated blocks
1326 2013-03-03 19:56:37 <TD> heh
1327 2013-03-03 19:56:38 <sipa> the blocks/index and chainstate dir are leveldb databases
1328 2013-03-03 19:56:50 <TD> the launch was rather low key
1329 2013-03-03 19:58:24 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1330 2013-03-03 19:59:20 <justmoon> TD: no comment - I'll be able to be a bit more outspoken when we meet :)
1331 2013-03-03 20:00:30 <kritCoin> i am looking for how the 2 work , is it on the wiki?
1332 2013-03-03 20:00:44 <kritCoin> leveldb design?
1333 2013-03-03 20:00:50 <kritCoin> how it is used
1334 2013-03-03 20:05:03 <sipa> kritCoin: that's a bit too much to explain on IRC
1335 2013-03-03 20:05:41 _amiller is now known as lumos
1336 2013-03-03 20:05:45 <kritCoin> i am looking at source code right now
1337 2013-03-03 20:06:12 lumos has quit (Changing host)
1338 2013-03-03 20:06:12 lumos has joined
1339 2013-03-03 20:06:13 <kritCoin> can you point me to the relevent c modules?\
1340 2013-03-03 20:06:58 <sipa> leveldb.cpp/.h is the generic leveldb stuff
1341 2013-03-03 20:07:25 <sipa> txdb.cpp/.h is the database specific stuff
1342 2013-03-03 20:07:38 <sipa> and most of the app logic involved is in main
1343 2013-03-03 20:09:03 <kritCoin> ok thanks
1344 2013-03-03 20:10:11 <kritCoin> i see that wallets can grow just like blockchains
1345 2013-03-03 20:10:35 <sipa> yes, they are very independent though
1346 2013-03-03 20:10:48 <kritCoin> of coursse!
1347 2013-03-03 20:11:20 <sipa> lumos: new nick?
1348 2013-03-03 20:11:31 lumos is now known as ielo
1349 2013-03-03 20:11:33 <kritCoin> any way of coalescing payment adresses within the same wallet without generating a transaction
1350 2013-03-03 20:11:40 <ielo> sipa, i like to change :)
1351 2013-03-03 20:11:45 <justmoon> TD, sipa: saturday, march 16th ok for meetup?
1352 2013-03-03 20:12:01 <sipa> sgtm
1353 2013-03-03 20:12:09 <justmoon> are we doing zurich or geneva?
1354 2013-03-03 20:12:20 <justmoon> TD: ^ ?
1355 2013-03-03 20:12:37 <TD> should be ok
1356 2013-03-03 20:12:43 <TD> well, i'm lazy, so zurich ⦠but i don't really mind
1357 2013-03-03 20:13:08 <sipa> same, zurich is (much) closer
1358 2013-03-03 20:13:08 <justmoon> alright, let's do zurich, I'll send the invite
1359 2013-03-03 20:13:23 <kritCoin> i live in Zurich
1360 2013-03-03 20:13:27 <kritCoin> lol
1361 2013-03-03 20:13:31 <justmoon> well come by! :)
1362 2013-03-03 20:13:35 <kritCoin> coincidence
1363 2013-03-03 20:13:48 <kritCoin> where you guys all at?
1364 2013-03-03 20:14:01 <justmoon> Schindellegi, canton Schwyz
1365 2013-03-03 20:14:01 <HM> kritCoin: Zurich is where all the Bitcoin devs secret numbered bank accounts are
1366 2013-03-03 20:14:27 <justmoon> yeah, sipa is actually satoshi, he moved here to bring his millions to safety :P
1367 2013-03-03 20:14:34 <kritCoin> ah, the zero tax Kanton
1368 2013-03-03 20:14:36 <kritCoin> lol
1369 2013-03-03 20:14:39 <sipa> HM: heh, my bank account numver stats with '1sipa'
1370 2013-03-03 20:14:39 <justmoon> yup
1371 2013-03-03 20:14:44 <sipa> :p
1372 2013-03-03 20:14:49 <justmoon> :D
1373 2013-03-03 20:14:55 <HM> sipa: what does the private key start with? :P
1374 2013-03-03 20:15:05 <sipa> HM: 5
1375 2013-03-03 20:15:10 <HM> sweet
1376 2013-03-03 20:15:45 <justmoon> sipa: if ecdsa is ever broken you just made yourself the low-hanging fruit ^^
1377 2013-03-03 20:16:01 <sipa> justmoon: lol
1378 2013-03-03 20:16:13 <HM> justmoon: they all start with 5
1379 2013-03-03 20:16:25 <sipa> except compressed ones
1380 2013-03-03 20:17:16 <justmoon> oh man, you can tell it's been a while I did anything with bitcoin
1381 2013-03-03 20:17:23 <justmoon> since*
1382 2013-03-03 20:17:32 <TD> kritCoin: look on google groups for bitcoin-switzerland
1383 2013-03-03 20:17:36 <TD> kritCoin: it's a mailing list there
1384 2013-03-03 20:18:00 <kritCoin> ok cool
1385 2013-03-03 20:20:30 amiller_ is now known as amiller
1386 2013-03-03 20:20:38 <kritCoin> guys one last Q
1387 2013-03-03 20:20:46 <kritCoin> any way of coalescing payment adresses within the same wallet without generating a transaction
1388 2013-03-03 20:21:31 <kritCoin> i dont think this is possible without creating a transaction in the blockchain
1389 2013-03-03 20:21:43 <kritCoin> am i right in this?
1390 2013-03-03 20:21:47 wladston has joined
1391 2013-03-03 20:22:05 <sipa> what do you mean by coalescing addresses?
1392 2013-03-03 20:22:09 <gmaxwell> kritCoin: I don't know what 'coalescing payment adresses' means?
1393 2013-03-03 20:22:15 <kritCoin> ok
1394 2013-03-03 20:22:30 <kritCoin> lets say you have 5 or 6 portfolios
1395 2013-03-03 20:22:39 <gmaxwell> portfolios??
1396 2013-03-03 20:22:46 <kritCoin> ok
1397 2013-03-03 20:22:49 <kritCoin> diff word
1398 2013-03-03 20:22:53 <kritCoin> accounts
1399 2013-03-03 20:23:01 <gmaxwell> Normally every payment you recieve should go to a different address.
1400 2013-03-03 20:23:15 <kritCoin> where people deposit money, your destination address in the blockchain
1401 2013-03-03 20:23:27 <gmaxwell> If you're talking about bitcoind 'accounts' then you can use the move rpc to bump funds around, which doesn't make a transaction.
1402 2013-03-03 20:23:31 <kritCoin> every payment to adifferent address?
1403 2013-03-03 20:23:47 <gmaxwell> kritCoin: Yes, otherwise how do you know whos payment you recieved?
1404 2013-03-03 20:24:22 <kritCoin> well you dont need a new address everytime mr x send you funds
1405 2013-03-03 20:24:47 <kritCoin> i can see that source address xyz sent me N amount of BC
1406 2013-03-03 20:25:02 <sipa> bitcoin transactions do not have a source address
1407 2013-03-03 20:25:03 <gmaxwell> Perhaps, though doing that can help distinguish two payments from an accidental resend.
1408 2013-03-03 20:25:29 <gmaxwell> My perhaps was assuming you'd already given Mr.X a unique target address.
1409 2013-03-03 20:25:37 <kritCoin> @sipa, they dont?\
1410 2013-03-03 20:25:42 <gmaxwell> As sipa says, bitcoin transactions do not have a source address.
1411 2013-03-03 20:25:46 erska_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1412 2013-03-03 20:26:21 erska has joined
1413 2013-03-03 20:26:34 <kritCoin> .....wot.?...
1414 2013-03-03 20:27:07 <kritCoin> if i send bc, how does the network know how to discount my wallet with the same amount minus
1415 2013-03-03 20:27:42 <sipa> kritCoin: a bitcoin transaction consumes some coins, creates some new coins (whose value does not exceed the value of the consumed ones), and assigns those new coins to addresses
1416 2013-03-03 20:27:46 <kritCoin> thats cool, can some one explain?
1417 2013-03-03 20:27:49 <kritCoin> ..ok
1418 2013-03-03 20:27:58 <sipa> it doesn ever refer to some input address
1419 2013-03-03 20:28:17 <sipa> it refers to specific coins, produced by a specific previous transaction
1420 2013-03-03 20:28:32 <sipa> as such, a "balance of an address" is purely a client side issu
1421 2013-03-03 20:28:39 <sipa> the network doesn't care
1422 2013-03-03 20:28:53 <sipa> it only knows which coins have not yet been spent
1423 2013-03-03 20:29:09 <kritCoin> let this sink in for a moment
1424 2013-03-03 20:29:32 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1425 2013-03-03 20:30:06 <kritCoin> ok
1426 2013-03-03 20:30:11 <kritCoin> Q
1427 2013-03-03 20:30:13 <sipa> kritCoin: read the article on 'change' on the wiki
1428 2013-03-03 20:30:22 <kritCoin> ok
1429 2013-03-03 20:30:34 <kritCoin> i will read
1430 2013-03-03 20:30:45 <kritCoin> so.
1431 2013-03-03 20:30:55 <kritCoin> lets say you have address x
1432 2013-03-03 20:31:05 <kritCoin> i trnsfer 30bc to adress x
1433 2013-03-03 20:31:17 <sipa> furst read
1434 2013-03-03 20:31:19 <sipa> then ask
1435 2013-03-03 20:31:22 <kritCoin> ok
1436 2013-03-03 20:35:11 <kritCoin> perfect, thanks sipa
1437 2013-03-03 20:36:47 <kritCoin> adresses are bills!!!
1438 2013-03-03 20:43:15 freakazoid has joined
1439 2013-03-03 20:44:06 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1440 2013-03-03 20:45:39 TD has joined
1441 2013-03-03 20:45:40 <BTCOxygen> ping
1442 2013-03-03 20:45:48 <BTCOxygen> bitcoind using all server resources
1443 2013-03-03 20:45:53 <BTCOxygen> Is this normal?
1444 2013-03-03 20:46:25 <Diablo-D3> until it finishes syncing, yes
1445 2013-03-03 20:46:30 <TD> not unheard of unfortunately
1446 2013-03-03 20:46:37 buddyrandom has joined
1447 2013-03-03 20:46:39 <Diablo-D3> BTCOxygen: you're on 0.8.0 right?
1448 2013-03-03 20:46:48 <gmaxwell> BTCOxygen: do you mean it's using all available CPU time? If so, sure, it's trying to sync as fast as possible.
1449 2013-03-03 20:47:13 <gmaxwell> I really boggle that it seems that _no one_ is actually familar with having a cpu bound task. :P
1450 2013-03-03 20:47:34 <sipa> people complain it is slow
1451 2013-03-03 20:47:37 ralphtheninja has left ()
1452 2013-03-03 20:47:38 <sipa> we make it faster
1453 2013-03-03 20:47:47 <sipa> people complain it fries their cpu
1454 2013-03-03 20:48:00 <sipa> what do they want!
1455 2013-03-03 20:48:02 <gmaxwell> sipa: it should only be fast enough! and no faster!
1456 2013-03-03 20:48:04 ashams has joined
1457 2013-03-03 20:48:04 ashams has quit (Changing host)
1458 2013-03-03 20:48:04 ashams has joined
1459 2013-03-03 20:48:05 <Diablo-D3> <sipa> then we merge OpenCL code and then it causes an AI apocalypse
1460 2013-03-03 20:48:29 <gmaxwell> ./bitcoind -par=readminds
1461 2013-03-03 20:49:09 buddyrand has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1462 2013-03-03 20:49:14 <chmod755> sipa, they want you to buy new computers :P
1463 2013-03-03 20:52:11 frosks has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1464 2013-03-03 20:52:49 buddyrand has joined
1465 2013-03-03 20:55:33 clav8_ has joined
1466 2013-03-03 20:55:45 buddyrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1467 2013-03-03 20:57:25 axhlf has joined
1468 2013-03-03 20:58:22 Garr255_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1469 2013-03-03 20:58:47 Garrett has joined
1470 2013-03-03 20:59:12 Garrett is now known as Guest65178
1471 2013-03-03 20:59:16 Guest65178 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1472 2013-03-03 20:59:43 Garr255 has joined
1473 2013-03-03 20:59:44 Garr255 has quit (Changing host)
1474 2013-03-03 20:59:44 Garr255 has joined
1475 2013-03-03 21:00:50 <sipa> chmod755: who is 'they' ?
1476 2013-03-03 21:01:57 buddyrand has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1477 2013-03-03 21:02:22 buddyrand has joined
1478 2013-03-03 21:05:29 buddyrand has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1479 2013-03-03 21:05:52 buddyrand has joined
1480 2013-03-03 21:06:01 i2pRelay has joined
1481 2013-03-03 21:08:32 <chmod755> sipa, bitcoin users
1482 2013-03-03 21:09:07 <sipa> why would they want me to buy new computers?
1483 2013-03-03 21:12:03 <chmod755> sipa, <sipa> people complain it is slow <sipa> we make it faster <sipa> people complain it fries their cpu <sipa> what do they want!
1484 2013-03-03 21:12:53 <sipa> yes, i still don't get it :)
1485 2013-03-03 21:13:32 <Diablo-D3> <sipa> harder
1486 2013-03-03 21:13:34 <Diablo-D3> <sipa> better
1487 2013-03-03 21:13:36 <Diablo-D3> <sipa> faster
1488 2013-03-03 21:13:39 <Diablo-D3> <sipa> stronger
1489 2013-03-03 21:13:44 <Diablo-D3> * sips dances to the beat
1490 2013-03-03 21:14:07 * Diablo-D3 runs
1491 2013-03-03 21:24:50 <Diablo-D3> sipa: thanks a lot dude. now I'm listening to daft punk.
1492 2013-03-03 21:25:32 buddyrandom has joined
1493 2013-03-03 21:25:42 <justmoon> Diablo-D3: lol, same
1494 2013-03-03 21:27:34 buddyrand has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1495 2013-03-03 21:31:25 meLon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1496 2013-03-03 21:31:40 meLon has joined
1497 2013-03-03 21:32:32 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1498 2013-03-03 21:34:35 <_chrisftw_> are asics being delivered yet?
1499 2013-03-03 21:39:26 ashams has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1500 2013-03-03 21:45:22 ThomasV has joined
1501 2013-03-03 21:52:15 <kritCoin> i dont understand asic
1502 2013-03-03 21:52:31 <kritCoin> why would a company sell ASIC
1503 2013-03-03 21:52:40 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1504 2013-03-03 21:52:55 <kritCoin> just use it themselves is i think more profitable
1505 2013-03-03 21:54:53 <lianj> to build them in the first place
1506 2013-03-03 21:55:09 <sipa> in a gold rush, only those selling shovels get rich
1507 2013-03-03 21:57:58 grau has joined
1508 2013-03-03 21:59:03 ThomasV has joined
1509 2013-03-03 22:00:30 <_chrisftw_> good quote sipa
1510 2013-03-03 22:00:43 bock_ has joined
1511 2013-03-03 22:00:56 bock has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1512 2013-03-03 22:01:30 <kritCoin> not really the same
1513 2013-03-03 22:01:50 owowo has joined
1514 2013-03-03 22:01:59 <kritCoin> wordgames not make true reality
1515 2013-03-03 22:03:18 <kritCoin> like,.., we sell money print presses"....mm ok...why not turn them on 24x7 for a while before selling them))
1516 2013-03-03 22:03:32 <kritCoin> ;-)
1517 2013-03-03 22:03:55 <sipa> but mining hardware is not a money printing press
1518 2013-03-03 22:04:14 <sipa> it still requires investment, power and time
1519 2013-03-03 22:04:49 <sipa> and there is only a limited amount of coins to be "printed", independent of how much people buy mining hardware
1520 2013-03-03 22:05:51 <kritCoin> ok
1521 2013-03-03 22:06:30 <sipa> and putting it on for a while would increase the difficulty before any buyer would use it
1522 2013-03-03 22:06:43 PRab has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1523 2013-03-03 22:07:57 <HM> kritCoin: selling shovels makes you rich because people will buy shovels even if there's no real hope of them getting rich themselves
1524 2013-03-03 22:08:46 PRab has joined
1525 2013-03-03 22:09:06 <justmoon> personally I'd bet on shovel-making tools :)
1526 2013-03-03 22:09:30 <HM> TNT
1527 2013-03-03 22:09:34 buddyrand has joined
1528 2013-03-03 22:09:41 <HM> why dig when you can demolish
1529 2013-03-03 22:09:47 <sipa> justmoon: ooh meta!
1530 2013-03-03 22:11:40 buddyrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1531 2013-03-03 22:12:52 buddyrand has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1532 2013-03-03 22:13:16 buddyrand has joined
1533 2013-03-03 22:14:02 dooglus_ is now known as dooglus
1534 2013-03-03 22:19:46 wladston has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1535 2013-03-03 22:19:56 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1536 2013-03-03 22:27:10 chmod755 has quit (Quit: chmod755)
1537 2013-03-03 22:27:14 Quazgaa has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1538 2013-03-03 22:28:49 buddyrandom has joined
1539 2013-03-03 22:29:45 B0g4r7 has joined
1540 2013-03-03 22:30:01 bitafterbit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1541 2013-03-03 22:30:30 root2_ is now known as root2
1542 2013-03-03 22:30:47 buddyrandom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1543 2013-03-03 22:31:09 buddyrand has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1544 2013-03-03 22:32:57 justmoon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1545 2013-03-03 22:37:31 _chrisftw_ has left ()
1546 2013-03-03 22:38:13 bock_ is now known as bock
1547 2013-03-03 22:39:10 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1548 2013-03-03 22:41:05 Silverion has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1549 2013-03-03 22:41:44 sgornick has joined
1550 2013-03-03 22:42:55 Quazgaa has joined
1551 2013-03-03 22:52:20 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1552 2013-03-03 22:57:08 mappum has joined
1553 2013-03-03 22:58:26 Graet has joined
1554 2013-03-03 22:58:49 <Graet> who is in charge of the https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Comparison_of_mining_pools ? and why can I no longer edit my pool info?
1555 2013-03-03 22:59:46 Hashdog has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1556 2013-03-03 23:00:20 <gmaxwell> Graet: it is a wiki. no one is in charge of it.
1557 2013-03-03 23:00:37 <gmaxwell> Graet: log out and on the log in screen you'll see why you can't edit.
1558 2013-03-03 23:00:50 <Graet> well someone has removed my ability to edit my pool info, just logged in to do it
1559 2013-03-03 23:00:57 <Graet> ok
1560 2013-03-03 23:01:51 <Graet> oh? i have to pay to edit pool info now?
1561 2013-03-03 23:01:56 <gmaxwell> Graet: it's because the evil men in black helecoptors want to oppress you. :P
1562 2013-03-03 23:02:10 <Graet> seems someone must be in charge to make that sort of change
1563 2013-03-03 23:02:31 <gmaxwell> Okay, going to ignore you now because you're a violent person.
1564 2013-03-03 23:02:39 edwincheese has joined
1565 2013-03-03 23:02:50 <Graet> huh what?
1566 2013-03-03 23:06:45 <gmaxwell> Sorry, I'm being a little impatient with people assuming malice or that they're being singled out whever something happens that they don't understand. The log in page explains how it works.
1567 2013-03-03 23:06:56 <Graet> i did
1568 2013-03-03 23:07:19 <gmaxwell> If you just want some change made and don't want to go through the account authorization procedure, I'll gladly make it for you (or, presumably so will anyone else who's already authed)
1569 2013-03-03 23:08:05 edwincheese has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1570 2013-03-03 23:08:21 <doublec> Graet: it's to stop spam
1571 2013-03-03 23:08:22 <Graet> it's ok, i'll do it
1572 2013-03-03 23:08:26 <Graet> yeah
1573 2013-03-03 23:08:31 edwincheese has joined
1574 2013-03-03 23:08:32 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1575 2013-03-03 23:09:02 <gmaxwell> best to pay it with mtgox because than that works with 0 confirms.
1576 2013-03-03 23:09:19 <Graet> i dont have funds in mtgox
1577 2013-03-03 23:09:27 <Graet> coz from au it is too expensive
1578 2013-03-03 23:09:35 <Graet> i'll just wait for the 6
1579 2013-03-03 23:10:17 <TD> 6 confirms on an anti-spam deposit?
1580 2013-03-03 23:10:21 <TD> who wrote that code? it should be zero
1581 2013-03-03 23:10:22 <Graet> yeah
1582 2013-03-03 23:10:29 <Graet> 0.01btc :P
1583 2013-03-03 23:10:31 <TD> in the very unlikely event of a double spend, ok, lock the account again
1584 2013-03-03 23:11:04 <Graet> + a fee :/
1585 2013-03-03 23:11:35 <gmaxwell> TD: after they've already made 5000 edits? meh. Hell, I'd spam it just to make an example of a case where 0 confirms actually are stupid. OTOH 1 would be fine, but because they're using mtgox I think you can't actually tell if there is a payment until gox accepts it.
1586 2013-03-03 23:12:05 ThomasV has joined
1587 2013-03-03 23:12:09 <TD> yes, you would, and then we'd revert your edits, kick you out and nobody else would bother making the same points again :)
1588 2013-03-03 23:12:18 <Graet> the "they" that arent in charge of the iki? lmao
1589 2013-03-03 23:12:19 <Graet> nm
1590 2013-03-03 23:12:23 <TD> i wonder if mediawiki has a way to bulk revert all changes made by a user
1591 2013-03-03 23:12:26 <gmaxwell> TD: you couldn't kick me out, I'd just make another account and make 5000 more spam edits.
1592 2013-03-03 23:12:44 <TD> so you can do double spends for free now, hm?
1593 2013-03-03 23:12:48 <sipa> gmaxwell: we'd use IP-based blocking! you'll never get around that!
1594 2013-03-03 23:12:57 <gmaxwell> not quite, the nukeuser extension lets you get all the pages they created.
1595 2013-03-03 23:13:21 <gmaxwell> TD: sure..., unconfirmed double spends? anyone can.
1596 2013-03-03 23:14:31 <gmaxwell> e.g. long unconfirmed chains are a pretty easy way to get them.
1597 2013-03-03 23:15:20 <gmaxwell> In any case, don't look at me. I wouldn't have done it the way it was done. I think magicaltux did it.
1598 2013-03-03 23:15:33 <TD> so if i implement a bit of code that rejects transactions with >3 unconfirmed dependencies in bitcoinj, will you change your mind?
1599 2013-03-03 23:15:36 <TD> maybe we should run double spending contests
1600 2013-03-03 23:15:57 <TD> like, send me 0.5 BTC and if you can find a way to double spend an unconfirmed transaction against me, i send you back the same amount or something
1601 2013-03-03 23:16:22 <TD> though i guess at some point we'd hit the issue of it not being a real enough simulation to match real world sites/merchants. and/or the need to bunch of extra coding work, like double spend alerts.
1602 2013-03-03 23:16:40 <gavinandresen> so much to code, so little time....
1603 2013-03-03 23:16:44 <gmaxwell> TD: perhaps you should just monitor the blockchain and note the dozens of double spends happening every day? wrt contests, I actually did challenge you to that at one point in the past.
1604 2013-03-03 23:16:59 <TD> you did?
1605 2013-03-03 23:17:09 <TD> huh, ok. then i forgot.
1606 2013-03-03 23:17:17 <gmaxwell> I think so!
1607 2013-03-03 23:18:04 <gmaxwell> But really, it's not theoretical, there are a bunch of doublespends happening. Enough that the mempool-grows-forever bug was actually visible in node performance.
1608 2013-03-03 23:18:07 <TD> it would be nice if the blockchain site actually showed which outputs were double spent. their current view is pretty useless.
1609 2013-03-03 23:18:33 <HM> huh
1610 2013-03-03 23:18:50 <HM> how are double spends happening
1611 2013-03-03 23:19:35 <gmaxwell> HM: people write two transactions spending the same coin. This is not rocket science!
1612 2013-03-03 23:19:46 <TD> probably buggy wallets. a lot of them seem to be satoshidice related. also some are apparently not "malicious". i picked one at random and the double spends are duplicates
1613 2013-03-03 23:19:55 <HM> yes but the network will reject one
1614 2013-03-03 23:20:00 <HM> how is that problematic
1615 2013-03-03 23:20:04 <gmaxwell> TD: the SD ones are malicious, but subtly so.
1616 2013-03-03 23:20:11 <TD> the only thing that's different between them is the signature.
1617 2013-03-03 23:20:17 <gmaxwell> Yea, indeed.
1618 2013-03-03 23:20:21 <gmaxwell> And still malicious.
1619 2013-03-03 23:20:36 <TD> and then only the first bytes, hmm
1620 2013-03-03 23:20:43 <gmaxwell> those are SD re-rolls. SD winning/losing depends on the transaction hash.
1621 2013-03-03 23:21:18 <kritCoin> why cant anyone modify pool info on wiki?
1622 2013-03-03 23:21:36 <sipa> kritCoin: anti-spam feature; need a 0.01 BTC payment for edit access
1623 2013-03-03 23:21:50 <kritCoin> lol
1624 2013-03-03 23:22:13 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1625 2013-03-03 23:22:15 <kritCoin> 0.0btc
1626 2013-03-03 23:22:25 <kritCoin> 0.01 btc
1627 2013-03-03 23:22:32 <sipa> why is that funny?
1628 2013-03-03 23:22:49 <kritCoin> munny is funny
1629 2013-03-03 23:23:19 <kritCoin> chuss babies,.., sleepy time
1630 2013-03-03 23:23:36 <TD> it seems that in this case at least http://blockchain.info/tx-index/58080100 SD accepted the double-spent bet, it lost, and then the re-roll that got confirmed was ignored. at least so far.
1631 2013-03-03 23:24:59 <gmaxwell> I believe you've now investigated it more than I have.
1632 2013-03-03 23:26:30 <TD> it's not really clear to me why this would work. they don't seem to be actually trying to take losing bets back. so SD can (and apparently does) just pick whatever tx it found first and then if another appears in the block chain that spends the same set of outputs, that doesn't trigger a re-roll
1633 2013-03-03 23:26:54 <TD> unless it's something to do with these transactions that make multiple bets at one go
1634 2013-03-03 23:27:22 <TD> on the other hand, whoever is doing this is clearly doing it a lot
1635 2013-03-03 23:27:32 <TD> so presumably it must work at least some of the time
1636 2013-03-03 23:27:45 <gmaxwell> Perhaps a bad assumption.
1637 2013-03-03 23:28:08 <gmaxwell> I mean a lot of people think that their betting $strategy will be net profitable and they place a lot of bets.
1638 2013-03-03 23:28:24 <sipa> never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity?
1639 2013-03-03 23:28:51 <TD> probably my analysis is wrong.
1640 2013-03-03 23:29:00 <HM> maybe it's both stupid *and* malicious
1641 2013-03-03 23:29:12 <TD> it seems b.i keeps double spends, but not transactions that depended on them
1642 2013-03-03 23:29:13 <gmaxwell> Never ascribe malice to selfish-rationality when malice is also perfectly justified for stupid reasons? :P
1643 2013-03-03 23:29:17 * HM likes to think the best of people
1644 2013-03-03 23:29:30 <TD> well, perhaps after i clear my current to do list i'll have time to write an app that analyzes them properly
1645 2013-03-03 23:29:37 <TD> i'm more interested in non-SD double spends anyway
1646 2013-03-03 23:30:03 <gmaxwell> hopefully you've got better things to do than free operations support for SD. :P
1647 2013-03-03 23:30:07 <TD> indeed
1648 2013-03-03 23:30:46 <TD> i can't actually see any non-sd double spends on that view
1649 2013-03-03 23:31:29 <gmaxwell> I know there have been some, because I've seen them... but I don't actually have an idea how many. Using b.i is inadvisable because they expire them off fast now.
1650 2013-03-03 23:32:02 GMP has joined
1651 2013-03-03 23:33:07 LargoG has joined
1652 2013-03-03 23:34:01 <TD> yeah
1653 2013-03-03 23:34:07 <ProfMac> I heard that there was a subtlety in constructing double spends with SD, and if you lost, dump the double spend into the network to avoid losing the money that you bet.
1654 2013-03-03 23:34:32 <sipa> ProfMac: that's the point yes
1655 2013-03-03 23:34:37 <TD> ProfMac: well, that'd make sense, except that these double spends don't seem to do that.
1656 2013-03-03 23:34:54 <sipa> it's not as easy as "dumping into the network", though, but close
1657 2013-03-03 23:35:02 <TD> ProfMac: as gmaxwell says they appear to be re-rolls created by some specialized software. it's doing something odd to the signatures to pad them a bit
1658 2013-03-03 23:35:22 <ProfMac> well, I don't gamble, I am not an SD user, and I haven't read the source to the reference client, so this is about all I can offer --- something I almost remember reading on the net.
1659 2013-03-03 23:35:30 <sipa> TD: sounds like maybe someone trying to attack SD, not for profit but for damage?
1660 2013-03-03 23:35:41 <TD> they're tiny amounts of money.
1661 2013-03-03 23:35:45 <sipa> hmm
1662 2013-03-03 23:36:15 <ProfMac> Christian fundamentalist cyber attack a gambling site, film at 11.
1663 2013-03-03 23:36:17 <HM> damage SD!?
1664 2013-03-03 23:36:19 <HM> Oh noes
1665 2013-03-03 23:36:24 <TD> i think it's some trick with the DER encoding
1666 2013-03-03 23:36:31 <sipa> TD: that sounds like it yes
1667 2013-03-03 23:36:42 <sipa> it's very malleable
1668 2013-03-03 23:37:06 <sipa> well, DER isn't, but the almost-DER that OpenSSL accepts is
1669 2013-03-03 23:37:12 <TD> 304402206918a / 30450221006918
1670 2013-03-03 23:37:33 <sipa> yup, extra zero padding byte
1671 2013-03-03 23:37:36 <sipa> there are more ways :)
1672 2013-03-03 23:37:41 <TD> naturally
1673 2013-03-03 23:38:01 <TD> i suppose SD could do its own canonicalization
1674 2013-03-03 23:38:03 <gmaxwell> This was all hashed out on the forums like, months ago. Do you guys wear bell bottoms too? :P
1675 2013-03-03 23:38:08 <TD> heh
1676 2013-03-03 23:38:28 <TD> though given that the signature includes a random number, i suppose they're tweaking the padding just to be lazy
1677 2013-03-03 23:38:30 one_zero has joined
1678 2013-03-03 23:38:47 <sipa> TD: it's the only thing you can do if you're not the author of the transaction
1679 2013-03-03 23:38:53 <TD> hmm
1680 2013-03-03 23:39:02 <sipa> (which doesn't mean they're not)
1681 2013-03-03 23:39:07 <TD> right
1682 2013-03-03 23:39:25 <gmaxwell> also gets you around coin selection not being determinstic, if you're lazy.
1683 2013-03-03 23:39:41 <sipa> we should do another round of poking around for non-canonical transactions
1684 2013-03-03 23:39:49 <TD> that sounds more plausible. someone is re-using bitcoind with the raw tx api
1685 2013-03-03 23:39:50 <sipa> and see if they can at least be made non-standard
1686 2013-03-03 23:40:23 <sipa> though i wish we could fix that even/oddness thing at the same time
1687 2013-03-03 23:40:30 <sipa> but that will take much more poking :)
1688 2013-03-03 23:41:02 <gmaxwell> sipa: well, we could at least make bitcoind consistent in its signatures.
1689 2013-03-03 23:41:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: pullreq has been ready for months :)
1690 2013-03-03 23:41:23 <TD> is sd sending back non-dust sized "you lost" outputs now?
1691 2013-03-03 23:41:33 <TD> or less dust-like
1692 2013-03-03 23:41:36 <TD> http://blockchain.info/tx-index/58081089
1693 2013-03-03 23:41:39 <sipa> TD: depends on the size of the bet
1694 2013-03-03 23:41:40 <TD> this one has a 0.0005
1695 2013-03-03 23:41:41 <TD> ah
1696 2013-03-03 23:41:42 <TD> ok
1697 2013-03-03 23:41:47 <TD> i thought it was always 1 satoshi
1698 2013-03-03 23:43:04 <gmaxwell> nah, those started having poor propagation.
1699 2013-03-03 23:43:43 <TD> lol@the wiki page for SD
1700 2013-03-03 23:45:01 <sipa> TD: let me guess, a Luke-Jr'ish "SD is a DDOS" ?
1701 2013-03-03 23:45:04 <gmaxwell> <3
1702 2013-03-03 23:45:07 <TD> yes
1703 2013-03-03 23:45:15 <gmaxwell> thats amusing. <3 wiki
1704 2013-03-03 23:45:17 <TD> "it is generally considered to be a ddos"
1705 2013-03-03 23:45:30 <sipa> i feel like adding "by Luke"
1706 2013-03-03 23:45:34 <TD> that bypasses the bitcoin anti-dos mechanism (transaction fees)
1707 2013-03-03 23:45:46 <TD> bahaha. yes, it stealthily hacks its way around them ⦠by paying them
1708 2013-03-03 23:46:00 <Luke-Jr> TD: SD doesn't pay any fees
1709 2013-03-03 23:46:11 <Luke-Jr> it social engineers gamblers into covering the expense
1710 2013-03-03 23:46:15 <TD> ah ha
1711 2013-03-03 23:46:34 <TD> then its users pay fees. ok, same thing :)
1712 2013-03-03 23:46:38 <gmaxwell> TD: eh, luke's position on that is only midly crazy. It's a social hack against a technical system. I'd agree with him if I believed that the motivation was 'attack' rather than 'lol profits from idiots'.
1713 2013-03-03 23:46:57 <TD> also it's not denying service. or at least not very effectively. bitcoin still works fine for me ...
1714 2013-03-03 23:47:00 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: they could profit from idiots without the attacking
1715 2013-03-03 23:47:13 <sipa> yes, i agree SD is damaging, but calling it a DDOS is stupid
1716 2013-03-03 23:47:20 <TD> Luke-Jr: for better or worse, fireduck believes the way it works is a part of what made it successful
1717 2013-03-03 23:47:20 <Luke-Jr> TD: you must miss out on all the newbies complaining the blockchain is huge/slow, and transactions don't confirm fast enough
1718 2013-03-03 23:47:27 <gmaxwell> The whole notion of 'fees prevent flooding attacks' is that attackers are at least somewhat economically rationalâ they won't attack if it costs them too much. This thiking is disrupted by picking up the help of economically irrational helpers.
1719 2013-03-03 23:47:46 <TD> Luke-Jr: they were complaining about that in 2009 :)
1720 2013-03-03 23:47:51 * TD remembers bitching about it himself
1721 2013-03-03 23:47:56 Grishnakh_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1722 2013-03-03 23:48:02 <TD> back when it was like 100mb or something trivial
1723 2013-03-03 23:48:06 <Luke-Jr> TD: in 2009, transactions almost always confirmed in the next block
1724 2013-03-03 23:48:14 <Luke-Jr> now they're flooded out by SD spam
1725 2013-03-03 23:48:21 Grishnakh_ has joined
1726 2013-03-03 23:48:40 <gmaxwell> TD: they're uninterested in usage reductions that don't even arguably change their success model, ::shrugs:: e.g. switching to compressed public keys.
1727 2013-03-03 23:48:54 ovidiusoft has quit (Quit: leaving)
1728 2013-03-03 23:49:01 <gmaxwell> or offering a batched interface in addition to the 1txn / bet one.
1729 2013-03-03 23:49:08 <gmaxwell> sorry, 2txn /bet one.
1730 2013-03-03 23:49:26 <TD> i suspect that since fireduck sold it to the (entirely non-technical?) vorhees, he now charges for his time, or something like that
1731 2013-03-03 23:49:31 <TD> it doesn't seem to change very much
1732 2013-03-03 23:49:32 <gmaxwell> but in any case, don't explain with malice what can be explained by lazy or incompetent.
1733 2013-03-03 23:49:38 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: When I tested my nLockTime for every tx patch, I setup something to do a small tx on every blocknotify, and every single one confirmed on the next block.
1734 2013-03-03 23:49:53 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Fees used were 0.0005 and 0.001
1735 2013-03-03 23:49:54 <TD> http://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size
1736 2013-03-03 23:50:20 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yes, if you pay fees you'll get fast confirmations still.
1737 2013-03-03 23:50:26 <TD> we're not even close to 500kb yet, let alone 1mb. so SD spam will put pressure on the system and make sure that we "cross that bridge" a little early
1738 2013-03-03 23:50:49 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I'm talking about ones that don't pay fees
1739 2013-03-03 23:50:53 <gmaxwell> TD: we have a soft blocksize limit of 250kb in the reference software by default.
1740 2013-03-03 23:50:58 <TD> yeah i know
1741 2013-03-03 23:51:13 <TD> gavinandresen: how easy is it for miners to tweak their soft limits? config file option? i think you have to recompile, right
1742 2013-03-03 23:51:14 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Ah, well, I don't have much sympathy for those who can't pay 1.5 cents...
1743 2013-03-03 23:51:15 <gmaxwell> (used to be 500kb, but with a greater limit on free txn)
1744 2013-03-03 23:51:22 <Luke-Jr> TD: no, we don't need to cross that bridge early. miners can just be pressured to block SD like it's their responsibility to
1745 2013-03-03 23:51:23 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1746 2013-03-03 23:51:26 <gmaxwell> TD: its a commandline option or config file
1747 2013-03-03 23:51:35 <gmaxwell> You don't have to recompile.
1748 2013-03-03 23:51:51 <TD> ok
1749 2013-03-03 23:51:51 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: then maybe we should make optional fees more prominently available
1750 2013-03-03 23:52:13 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: the problem with that is that the reference software doesn't make any effort to minimize fees.
1751 2013-03-03 23:52:14 D34TH has joined
1752 2013-03-03 23:52:14 D34TH has quit (Changing host)
1753 2013-03-03 23:52:14 D34TH has joined
1754 2013-03-03 23:52:26 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Yes, I think we should. We can't and shouldn't be sending the message that Bitcoin has zero fees.
1755 2013-03-03 23:52:46 <gmaxwell> So you will randomly get a 50kb transactionâ with a 50*<setting> fee if your wallet creates dust.
1756 2013-03-03 23:52:53 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: IMO that message is supposed to be more of "limited time offer: zero fees on most transactions!"
1757 2013-03-03 23:52:54 <gmaxwell> er s/creates/contains/
1758 2013-03-03 23:53:05 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: ideally until we reach critical mass of adoption
1759 2013-03-03 23:53:07 <TD> Luke-Jr: well, don't cry when it's your favourite class of transactions getting blocked then. though i wouldn't be against a rule that lowers the priority of transactions that seem to be re-using keys a lot
1760 2013-03-03 23:53:19 <gmaxwell> so someone sets their fee to 0.01/kb and then gets a 0.5 BTC and is rather quite angry about it. :P
1761 2013-03-03 23:53:32 <Luke-Jr> TD: miners have a duty to block floods/attacks
1762 2013-03-03 23:53:46 <TD> that would discourage poor privacy practices, and temporarily de-prioritize SD transactions until they regenerate their keys, which at least would then mean they'd be compressed
1763 2013-03-03 23:53:57 <TD> albiet it's probably too complicated to implement efficiently
1764 2013-03-03 23:54:18 <petertodd> Meh, transaction history isn't a big deal, it's UTXO bloating practices that are nasty.
1765 2013-03-03 23:54:29 <gmaxwell> It's not so hard, esp if you just limit it to N reuses per block. The code that sweeps the mempool to build the block would just keep a map and reject reuse over the limit.
1766 2013-03-03 23:56:09 coolsa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1767 2013-03-03 23:56:17 <gmaxwell> TD: I think that for reuse ratelimiting is both a good idea for fairness and privacy reasons, but unfortunately its too likely to be misunderstood as xyz-hates-sd! :(
1768 2013-03-03 23:56:27 <gmaxwell> I wish SD would change behavior just so we could implement that.
1769 2013-03-03 23:56:35 coolsa has joined
1770 2013-03-03 23:57:07 <TD> if they don't implement the payment protocol when it launches, i suppose such a rule would be harder to argue with
1771 2013-03-03 23:57:18 <TD> it doesn't really block SD anyway, they'd just have to switch to generating fresh keys.
1772 2013-03-03 23:57:29 <sipa> petertodd: your nLockTime patch sets it to nBestHeight - shouldn't it be nBestHeight + 1 ?
1773 2013-03-03 23:57:38 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: maybe SD should have a mode where it just automatically gambles the balance until there's none left, and tells you stats on how high your balance was at the top, and how many bets it took to gamble away completely
1774 2013-03-03 23:57:41 <gmaxwell> I can't fathom them implementing the payment protocol. I hope to be surprise.d
1775 2013-03-03 23:57:47 <TD> exactly :)
1776 2013-03-03 23:58:17 <Luke-Jr> last time I looked at the payment protocol, it didn't really solve the problem.. does it support using a single transaction for multiple interactions yet?
1777 2013-03-03 23:58:17 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: road-to-ruin mode. :P
1778 2013-03-03 23:58:19 <sipa> Luke-Jr: hahaha
1779 2013-03-03 23:58:49 <sipa> petertodd: oh, nLockTime=N means locked until block=N
1780 2013-03-03 23:59:09 <TD> Luke-Jr: it lets the user send a message to the merchant and the merchant send a message back to the user
1781 2013-03-03 23:59:22 <TD> Luke-Jr: so they could replace their tiny "you lost" outputs with a useful english message instead
1782 2013-03-03 23:59:42 <petertodd> sipa: Yup, because AcceptBlock() does nHeight+1, and IsFinal() is evaluated with that height.
1783 2013-03-03 23:59:46 <sipa> that doesn't end up in the UTXO set for eternity
1784 2013-03-03 23:59:51 <petertodd> sipa: Confusing I know.
1785 2013-03-03 23:59:58 <Luke-Jr> TD: so if a user then decides to bet again, can they send a replacement transaction that combines the previous deposit with the next one?