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17 2013-03-05 00:43:44 <etotheipi_> anyone know where I can get the largest 512-bit prime number (or one of the largest)?
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19 2013-03-05 00:43:50 <etotheipi_> it is surprisingly hard to find such info
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22 2013-03-05 00:46:48 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: it's quite easy
23 2013-03-05 00:47:00 <D34TH> gmaxwell: is it 2^512/log(2^512) ?
24 2013-03-05 00:47:21 <gmaxwell> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=NextPrime[2^512%2C-1]
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26 2013-03-05 00:48:18 <D34TH> well i was wrong
27 2013-03-05 00:49:01 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: watcha want a 512 bit prime for?
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31 2013-03-05 00:54:06 <Scrat> heh, even 2^2048,-1 works
32 2013-03-05 00:54:50 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: trying to create a 512-bit finite field
33 2013-03-05 00:54:55 <etotheipi_> (of prime order)
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35 2013-03-05 00:55:03 <gmaxwell> 2^512-569 is a more compact expression I guess. or 2^512-sum(x^2*2,x,1,9)-1 is more mystical. :P
36 2013-03-05 00:56:05 <jgarzik> etotheipi_: http://www.isthe.com/chongo/tech/math/digit/m37156667/prime-c.html
37 2013-03-05 00:56:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: you should try to get e^pi-pi in there
38 2013-03-05 00:56:41 <etotheipi_> hey, fun math problem, for those who like fun problems: which is bigger? pi^e, or e^pi (without a calculator)
39 2013-03-05 00:57:39 <sipa> my guess is the first
40 2013-03-05 00:57:45 <sipa> e*log(pi) looks more than pi
41 2013-03-05 00:57:54 <sipa> wait
42 2013-03-05 00:58:01 <etotheipi_> it's surprisingly more difficult to figure out than I expected
43 2013-03-05 00:58:18 <etotheipi_> which is why it was one of the "featured problems" in some journal once
44 2013-03-05 00:58:33 <rdymac> This doesn't sound good "This story on the NSAâs Utah datacenter suggests the NSA may soon be able to break (brute force) AES-128: http://t.co/K0g2lXF5an"
45 2013-03-05 00:58:49 <rdymac> Aren't some wallets encrypted with that?
46 2013-03-05 00:58:51 <etotheipi_> I presented it to a mathematician at my work... he came back a couple days later with a chalkboard full of calculations...
47 2013-03-05 00:59:38 <gmaxwell> rdymac: ... if someone has a copy of your wallet then you have bigger problems that a gigantic datacenter and questionable reasoning.
48 2013-03-05 01:00:52 <gmaxwell> rdymac: unless they have non-classical or at least reversable computers, and/or a sprinkling of other breakthroughs, they're not "brute forcing" AES-128 in a datacenter in utah or any other state... and thats irrelevant to Bitcoin development.
49 2013-03-05 01:02:01 <denisx> and if they could they wouldnt say
50 2013-03-05 01:03:28 <muhoo> huh, there's no way to view the foundation forum links here, without a login?
51 2013-03-05 01:04:23 <gavinandresen> no, access to the foundation forums is a member benefit.
52 2013-03-05 01:04:32 Nameface_ has joined
53 2013-03-05 01:08:31 <midnightmagic> rdymac: I am fairly confident that the NSA machinery is not a quantum computer, but just a massive TITAN-like supercomputing facility and password-guesses a few orders of magnitude faster.
54 2013-03-05 01:10:26 <midnightmagic> rdymac: This is why direct human-supplied keys to AES are pointless.
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57 2013-03-05 01:15:35 <jrmithdobbs> this is also why tech journalists should realize they have a duty to not choose stupid fucking headlines that cause panic (and that headline is like a year old or older)
58 2013-03-05 01:16:28 Lolcust has joined
59 2013-03-05 01:17:44 <Nameface_> what headline?
60 2013-03-05 01:18:13 <Nameface_> Boycott Bitcoin! surprised me today
61 2013-03-05 01:18:14 <Nameface_> http://dailyreckoning.com/boycott-bitcoin/
62 2013-03-05 01:20:26 <jrmithdobbs> Nameface_: "nsa utah datacenter capable of bruteforcing aes128" or w/e
63 2013-03-05 01:20:37 <jrmithdobbs> (it's not, jfyi)
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74 2013-03-05 01:36:33 <muhoo> crazy season has arrived
75 2013-03-05 01:36:59 <muhoo> expect the crazy to escalate the more popularity/visibility it gets
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79 2013-03-05 01:42:48 <muhoo> is there any way with multi sigs to do a kickstarter kind of thing, where the transaction is only valid if it reaches a certain amount?
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82 2013-03-05 01:44:22 <muhoo> i should look to see if there's some way for a script to get the total amount of all inputs. i suspect there isn't.
83 2013-03-05 01:44:25 <gavinandresen> muhoo: you don't need multi sigs, just a regular transaction with SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY should work. I think.
84 2013-03-05 01:45:35 <muhoo> hmm, interesting. i haven't played with exotic sigs yet, still not quite advanced enough, but curious how that'd work
85 2013-03-05 01:45:40 <gavinandresen> ⦠just keep adding inputs until you get enough to fund the output. Not really like kickstarter, though, because there's no way to make it greater-than-or-equal-to
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88 2013-03-05 01:46:26 <muhoo> just equal to? that might be a benefit
89 2013-03-05 01:46:38 <sipa> equal-to, and anything above becomes a fee :D
90 2013-03-05 01:46:47 <gavinandresen> yup
91 2013-03-05 01:47:21 <muhoo> not quite, then
92 2013-03-05 01:47:31 <DarkGhost-c> hi everyone
93 2013-03-05 01:48:13 <DarkGhost-c> so whats the most secure way doing transactions with bitcoins via websites?
94 2013-03-05 01:48:19 <DarkGhost-c> ex bitzino.com
95 2013-03-05 01:48:20 <DarkGhost-c> bitcoind?
96 2013-03-05 01:48:33 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
97 2013-03-05 01:49:17 <gavinandresen> pre-generate a bunch of bitcoin addresses on which you accept payment, put them in the web server's database, and run bitcoind on another machine.
98 2013-03-05 01:49:42 <muhoo> and json between them
99 2013-03-05 01:49:50 <DarkGhost-c> okay, so I could do that using json rpc
100 2013-03-05 01:50:04 <DarkGhost-c> and just have the bitcoind only accept commands/addresses from that server?
101 2013-03-05 01:50:05 <gavinandresen> ⦠another machine that is in a locked server closet, with only ssh access via public keys, from certain pre-approved IP addresses.
102 2013-03-05 01:50:14 <DarkGhost-c> okay, sounds good.
103 2013-03-05 01:50:22 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I prefer the "no network connection" setup :p
104 2013-03-05 01:50:33 <gmaxwell> behind a sign that says "beware the jaguar"
105 2013-03-05 01:50:37 <gavinandresen> hard to keep up with the blockchain if you have no network connection
106 2013-03-05 01:50:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: it's a leopard
107 2013-03-05 01:50:46 <DarkGhost-c> json-rpc should do the trick right? with in the .conf for bitcoind only that ip allowing?
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110 2013-03-05 01:51:45 <muhoo> DarkGhost-c: if you want to track payments received
111 2013-03-05 01:52:02 <gavinandresen> is the web server initiating payments? If it is, then I'd probably setup a json-rpc proxy that had some logic to restrict the number or amount of payments, in case the web server gets compromised you'll only lose a few BTC
112 2013-03-05 01:52:16 <OneMiner> Armory keeps the keys away from the net.
113 2013-03-05 01:52:45 <DarkGhost-c> everytime someone registers on website, its going to give them an address, and potentially send out payments also
114 2013-03-05 01:52:46 <muhoo> and if the keys swim into the net, they get caught!
115 2013-03-05 01:53:03 MiningBuddy- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
116 2013-03-05 01:53:15 <OneMiner> :)
117 2013-03-05 01:53:29 <muhoo> DarkGhost-c: sounds like a web store. try bitpay or multibitmerchant maybe
118 2013-03-05 01:54:05 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: don't need to keep up with privkeys
119 2013-03-05 01:54:09 <muhoo> i'm playing with multibitmerchant atm. it's quite a beast
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125 2013-03-05 01:54:40 <muhoo> hell, looks like bitpay even has plugins for zencart, etc
126 2013-03-05 01:55:32 <DarkGhost-c> so how much is everyone agaisnt websites such as satoshidice and bitzino?
127 2013-03-05 01:55:57 <muhoo> and stock photos of smiling people. nothing says "ecommerce" like stock photos
128 2013-03-05 01:56:39 <muhoo> DarkGhost-c: that smells a bit like troll-bait, tbh
129 2013-03-05 01:57:28 <DarkGhost-c> i'm not 100% sure what you mean by troll-bait but I'm sorry, I don't want any trolls.
130 2013-03-05 01:58:35 <OneMiner> hahah we hates SD, precious.
131 2013-03-05 01:58:36 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
132 2013-03-05 01:58:58 <OneMiner> But it's also no supprise in hindsight, precious.
133 2013-03-05 01:59:28 bitit has joined
134 2013-03-05 02:01:35 <OneMiner> At this point I think we just have to eat the extra transactions. They are playing within the rules of the system and I imagine gamblers may be willing to pay higher fees than normal folk. But we can try to squeeze them out anyways.
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136 2013-03-05 02:02:27 <jrmithdobbs> the only way to "fix" it really, since they refuse to cooperate, is to use a faster hash function so it's not as debilitating but that's a forking change (excluding things like blacklisting their txns)
137 2013-03-05 02:02:58 <DarkGhost-c> you guys don't support it because of it's spam of blocks or ?
138 2013-03-05 02:02:59 <DarkGhost-c> what
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140 2013-03-05 02:03:25 <jrmithdobbs> DarkGhost-c: it's poorly designed and sends way more txns back to the network than it actually needs to
141 2013-03-05 02:03:36 <OneMiner> DarkGhost-c Yes, spam. They seem to do it because it's easy. Spent no time in making a system that works well with bitcoin.
142 2013-03-05 02:03:40 <jrmithdobbs> DarkGhost-c: it could be fixed but the proprieters literally do not care
143 2013-03-05 02:03:55 <DarkGhost-c> 600k/yr
144 2013-03-05 02:04:03 <DarkGhost-c> they mine as well spend some of their free time fixing it
145 2013-03-05 02:04:13 <jrmithdobbs> but they wont
146 2013-03-05 02:04:27 <DarkGhost-c> how could they fix it? use sendmany?
147 2013-03-05 02:04:28 <DarkGhost-c> lol
148 2013-03-05 02:04:28 <OneMiner> About half of the blockchain is SD transaction now, or soon will be. They'll be 75% pretty soon at this rate.
149 2013-03-05 02:04:32 <jrmithdobbs> they've been approached multiple times with solutions and their response is "so fix bitcoin"
150 2013-03-05 02:04:35 <jrmithdobbs> (seriously)
151 2013-03-05 02:05:01 <jrmithdobbs> and then someone let the tard onto the board of the foundation
152 2013-03-05 02:05:06 <jrmithdobbs> ... but i digress
153 2013-03-05 02:05:22 <OneMiner> So, yes, we hate them. A bit. Not like I'd punch any of em.
154 2013-03-05 02:05:31 <jrmithdobbs> I'd consider it.
155 2013-03-05 02:05:56 <jrmithdobbs> but ya, face punching is not a foregone conclusion ;p
156 2013-03-05 02:05:58 zooko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
157 2013-03-05 02:06:46 <Luke-Jr> OneMiner: they're not playing within the rules
158 2013-03-05 02:06:58 <muhoo> spirit vs letter
159 2013-03-05 02:07:00 <DarkGhost-c> what would they have to do to fix there ways?
160 2013-03-05 02:07:21 <muhoo> they are obeying the letter, violating the spirit, is how i read it
161 2013-03-05 02:07:29 <doublec> jrmithdobbs: I don't see them listed as a board member on the foundation site
162 2013-03-05 02:07:29 <jrmithdobbs> stop sending failure bitdust
163 2013-03-05 02:07:51 <jrmithdobbs> doublec: bitinstant guy, it's convoluted/obscured a bit, but it's there
164 2013-03-05 02:07:59 <OneMiner> Luke-Jr I dig what you say but I see the rules as "whatever you can get away with/will work" because there are no bitcoin police. Just like corporate ethics are not ethics, it's what the cops will or will not arrest you for.
165 2013-03-05 02:08:03 <muhoo> doublec: eric voorhees, IIRC
166 2013-03-05 02:08:07 <jrmithdobbs> ^
167 2013-03-05 02:08:31 <doublec> voorhees isn't listed on the site
168 2013-03-05 02:08:39 <Luke-Jr> just his buddy Matonis
169 2013-03-05 02:08:44 <doublec> the bitinstant member is Charlie Shrem
170 2013-03-05 02:08:49 bitcoinanalyst has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
171 2013-03-05 02:08:51 <Luke-Jr> who is constantly daring governments to ban Bitcoin
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173 2013-03-05 02:08:57 <muhoo> the wild west.
174 2013-03-05 02:08:59 <doublec> ah ok
175 2013-03-05 02:09:11 <jrmithdobbs> doublec: they're related financially
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178 2013-03-05 02:09:51 <muhoo> i love the technology. feel increasingly dirty about the politics, and the economics too (deflation, meet the new elite, not-quite-the-same as the old elite)
179 2013-03-05 02:10:20 * OneMiner suddenly wants music
180 2013-03-05 02:12:04 <muhoo> i wonder once BTC are $300/ea, how soon people start fractionally lending them out at interest :-)
181 2013-03-05 02:12:58 bitit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
182 2013-03-05 02:13:11 <muhoo> but, such a cool design. intoxicating just learning about it.
183 2013-03-05 02:13:21 <doublec> it'd have to be easier to prosecute people who don't pay back before that becomes viable
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185 2013-03-05 02:14:46 <OneMiner> Ya, lending seems DoA unless the person has massive trust and even then it's a bit of a gamble. Gaining enough trust to too high of a bar to get many customers.
186 2013-03-05 02:16:11 <PRab> muhoo: bitfinex.com, currently you can lend as little as .01BTC for about 11% interest.
187 2013-03-05 02:17:30 <Luke-Jr> jrmithdobbs: Charlie at least seems to distance himself from SD
188 2013-03-05 02:24:37 FredEE has joined
189 2013-03-05 02:29:51 <gwillen> whoooa, the new client is slick
190 2013-03-05 02:29:57 <gwillen> I wish I had upgraded sooner
191 2013-03-05 02:33:33 <gmaxwell> gwillen: why didn't you?
192 2013-03-05 02:33:46 <gwillen> :effort:
193 2013-03-05 02:33:59 <gwillen> I hardly ever use it; I mostly sit on my bitcoins
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195 2013-03-05 02:41:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I still haven't upgraded myself :p
196 2013-03-05 02:42:00 <Nameface_> sry what's SD?
197 2013-03-05 02:42:07 <Luke-Jr> Nameface_: SatoshiDice
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211 2013-03-05 03:32:59 <yebyen> Hey, I have testnet clients connected and i wiped the blockchain, now I want to add a genesis block and start hashing... is there a guide for this?
212 2013-03-05 03:33:02 <yebyen> can I just download the genesis block from testnet blockexplorer and put it in blk0001.dat?
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216 2013-03-05 03:51:53 <gmaxwell> yebyen: uh.. no, the genesis block is built in, and it will download the current chain from the network.
217 2013-03-05 03:52:16 <yebyen> gmaxwell: sorry i'm not clear on what i'm doing, i want to start a private testnet
218 2013-03-05 03:52:21 <yebyen> i have a vpn set up
219 2013-03-05 03:52:25 <yebyen> i'm using testnet-in-a-box
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221 2013-03-05 03:52:41 <yebyen> i'm not sure if starting over from the genesis block will allow the difficulty to go down faster
222 2013-03-05 03:52:45 <gmaxwell> ah, well, testnet in a box includes a starter chain and wallet. You can't mine until you have two nodes up.
223 2013-03-05 03:52:59 <yebyen> i have two nodes but it's much too slow for difficulty 1
224 2013-03-05 03:53:06 <yebyen> it's an arm tablet
225 2013-03-05 03:53:14 <gmaxwell> It cannot go under difficulty 1.
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227 2013-03-05 03:53:19 <yebyen> oh i thought it could
228 2013-03-05 03:53:30 <yebyen> so, just let it run for a while? :)
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230 2013-03-05 03:53:31 <gmaxwell> well, unless IAB has some other patches that I'm not aware of.
231 2013-03-05 03:53:34 <yebyen> can I get one that's not pre-mined?
232 2013-03-05 03:53:49 <gmaxwell> but generally going below 1 breaks lots of software.
233 2013-03-05 03:54:08 <yebyen> i thought you could go below 1, but my friend was telling me about bbqcoin when he said that
234 2013-03-05 03:54:09 <gmaxwell> yebyen: you can throw away the blocks, but then you'll have to mine 100 before you have any you can spend.
235 2013-03-05 03:54:23 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin absolutely cannot go under 1.
236 2013-03-05 03:54:42 <yebyen> gmaxwell: i'm fine with that... i can't just throw away all blk0001.dat and blkindex though, right? i'll need to connect one node with at least a genesis block
237 2013-03-05 03:54:56 <yebyen> open it with bdb editor?
238 2013-03-05 03:57:52 <yebyen> db5.3-util maybe? :)
239 2013-03-05 03:58:14 <yebyen> i tried downloading the testnet genesis from blockexplorer but 'raw' sent it in json format
240 2013-03-05 04:00:37 <yebyen> hmm it looks like a genesis block to me
241 2013-03-05 04:00:38 <gmaxwell> you don't need to connect to one node with the genesis block
242 2013-03-05 04:00:55 <gmaxwell> 19:51 < gmaxwell> yebyen: uh.. no, the genesis block is built in,
243 2013-03-05 04:01:46 <gmaxwell> ::sigh:: I can already sense another coin control patch crashing and burning.
244 2013-03-05 04:02:59 <yebyen> so just set them both generating and wait, then
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246 2013-03-05 04:03:09 <yebyen> crashing and burning?
247 2013-03-05 04:03:39 <gmaxwell> yebyen: that was unrelated to your questions, it's with respect to context on github.
248 2013-03-05 04:03:43 <yebyen> i thought it wasn't doing anything because i see hashes per second as zero
249 2013-03-05 04:03:49 <yebyen> gmaxwell: ok, good, i thought I was n00bing it up
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262 2013-03-05 04:10:11 <yebyen> gmaxwell: well according to top, neither node is trying very hard to generate the first non-genesis block
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264 2013-03-05 04:10:19 <yebyen> same with hashes per second
265 2013-03-05 04:10:41 <gmaxwell> if testnet in a box has a checkpoint you'll need to disable it.
266 2013-03-05 04:11:13 <yebyen> right
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268 2013-03-05 04:11:21 <yebyen> compiling time
269 2013-03-05 04:11:32 <gmaxwell> there is a commandline option which should suffice.
270 2013-03-05 04:12:16 <gmaxwell> man, how do people stand using the gui? that ONTOPOFEVERYTHINGGLOWINGWALLETOFDOOM when rescaning is obnoxious.
271 2013-03-05 04:12:16 <yebyen> oh :)
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273 2013-03-05 04:13:18 ahbritto_ has joined
274 2013-03-05 04:13:28 DiabloD3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
275 2013-03-05 04:13:54 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: you can select another window and it goes away...
276 2013-03-05 04:14:00 holorga has joined
277 2013-03-05 04:14:07 serp has joined
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280 2013-03-05 04:14:14 <petertodd> yebyen: Say, if you need help generating blocks for your test, I can point my BFL single at your node, that is, I'll do that if you can say why you should be careful accepting that offer.
281 2013-03-05 04:14:45 <BlueMatt> petertodd: ooo, can you mine the block-tester test chain (actually, please mine like 10 copies of it, please?)
282 2013-03-05 04:14:46 <yebyen> are you offering to 51% my network? :)
283 2013-03-05 04:15:05 <petertodd> yebyen: I'm going to 100% your network. :P
284 2013-03-05 04:15:08 <BlueMatt> well, and do something about the one(s) which test timestamps
285 2013-03-05 04:15:09 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Sure
286 2013-03-05 04:15:09 <BlueMatt> kthx
287 2013-03-05 04:15:10 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
288 2013-03-05 04:15:16 ahbritto has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
289 2013-03-05 04:15:25 <yebyen> petertodd: what I don't want is to run up the difficulty, obviously
290 2013-03-05 04:15:27 MobiusL has joined
291 2013-03-05 04:15:31 ahbritto__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
292 2013-03-05 04:15:34 <BlueMatt> not that I couldnt do it at min_diff, but...I dont want to set it up :)
293 2013-03-05 04:15:41 wereHamster has joined
294 2013-03-05 04:15:51 <yebyen> does anyone know the commandline option? i'm using debian 0.7.2 bitcoind
295 2013-03-05 04:15:57 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Seriously, just tell me where to point it and I'll go for it. Basically it'll cost me $3USD/day, so I'm happy to donate.
296 2013-03-05 04:15:59 <yebyen> i think it doesn't have an option to disable checkpoint
297 2013-03-05 04:16:05 ahbritto has joined
298 2013-03-05 04:16:10 <petertodd> yebeyn: You have to edit the source to do that.
299 2013-03-05 04:16:21 <petertodd> yebyen: Re: timestamps, again, easiest thing to do is edit the source.
300 2013-03-05 04:16:40 <gmaxwell> Why are you using 0.7.2?
301 2013-03-05 04:16:52 <yebyen> it's what's packaged in debian
302 2013-03-05 04:16:58 <yebyen> it's newer than testnet3
303 2013-03-05 04:17:21 <BlueMatt> you could manually download the ubuntu packages, its not like its any different
304 2013-03-05 04:17:37 <yebyen> but will i still have to edit the source to disable checkpoints?
305 2013-03-05 04:18:01 <petertodd> yebyen: Yup, and recompile.
306 2013-03-05 04:18:16 <yebyen> so, why not try first with what's packaged
307 2013-03-05 04:18:24 <yebyen> apt-get source; apt-get build-dep
308 2013-03-05 04:18:27 <petertodd> yebyen: yebyen: Oh, actually, I'm out of date on that: -checkpoints=0
309 2013-03-05 04:18:34 <yebyen> oh
310 2013-03-05 04:18:38 <yebyen> then screw compiling
311 2013-03-05 04:18:45 <yebyen> it will take longer than mining the first 100 blocks
312 2013-03-05 04:18:54 <yebyen> this machine is a tegra2 :x
313 2013-03-05 04:19:11 <yebyen> ahh i'm already downloading the dependencies though
314 2013-03-05 04:19:29 <petertodd> yebyen: Yeesh...
315 2013-03-05 04:19:41 <petertodd> yebyen: I dunno how long diff 1 takes to mine, could go either way.
316 2013-03-05 04:20:08 <yebyen> i just want to see hashes per second before i hook it up to my radeon 5970
317 2013-03-05 04:21:19 <yebyen> i guess it would be easier to throw away the coins that come free and make new wallets
318 2013-03-05 04:21:40 <yebyen> if there's no chance of bringing the difficulty down
319 2013-03-05 04:21:54 <muhoo> is gary rowe (of multibitmerchant) around here ever?
320 2013-03-05 04:22:11 <petertodd> yebyen: Testnet has a rule that sets difficulty to 1 if more than 20 minutes have passed since the last block.
321 2013-03-05 04:22:42 <petertodd> yebyen: Easy is to just set your clock forward 20 minutes and you'll be good.
322 2013-03-05 04:22:54 b4tt3r135 has joined
323 2013-03-05 04:22:56 <yebyen> petertodd: so I could really download the latest chain and then isolate my nodes, still just as good
324 2013-03-05 04:23:07 <petertodd> yebyen: Exactly
325 2013-03-05 04:23:24 <petertodd> (sorry, I only caught the tail end of the conversation, I shoul dhave mentioned that earlier)
326 2013-03-05 04:23:40 <yebyen> hey it's not like time is money or anything
327 2013-03-05 04:23:49 <yebyen> i'm learning, you're helping :)
328 2013-03-05 04:23:54 <petertodd> ...with a BFL single it is. :P
329 2013-03-05 04:24:21 <yebyen> my order number at BFL is in the 16000's
330 2013-03-05 04:24:55 <yebyen> i should see my jalapeno by ... well my next of kin could see it by...
331 2013-03-05 04:25:18 <petertodd> Mine is three digits IIRC... my one $150 coffee warmer...
332 2013-03-05 04:25:25 <yebyen> i ordered 2
333 2013-03-05 04:25:29 <petertodd> Nice
334 2013-03-05 04:25:32 i2pRelay has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
335 2013-03-05 04:25:41 <yebyen> with 22.08 bitcoins iirc
336 2013-03-05 04:25:51 <yebyen> could have 5 by now if i had kept them
337 2013-03-05 04:26:01 <petertodd> I bought my single, really because I wanted a cool piece of Bitcoin history, and same logic for the jalapeno; I'm not even trading my single in for an upgrade.
338 2013-03-05 04:26:41 <yebyen> i just don't want to pay student loans anymore!
339 2013-03-05 04:26:50 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
340 2013-03-05 04:26:51 <yebyen> i have beeminder graphs for bitcoin and for student loans
341 2013-03-05 04:27:04 <yebyen> and for tangents off of gmailzero
342 2013-03-05 04:27:09 <yebyen> (heard of beeminder?)
343 2013-03-05 04:27:22 <petertodd> nope
344 2013-03-05 04:27:57 <yebyen> they make graphs and take your money if you don't follow through on commitments (goals)
345 2013-03-05 04:28:19 <petertodd> Ha, that's hilarious.
346 2013-03-05 04:28:49 <yebyen> you just send them data points and they're actually really nice about resetting the graphs
347 2013-03-05 04:28:52 i2pRelay has joined
348 2013-03-05 04:29:01 <yebyen> I ought to commit some of them
349 2013-03-05 04:29:05 <petertodd> One of those totally self-honestly things 'eh?
350 2013-03-05 04:29:15 <yebyen> the first fees are only $5
351 2013-03-05 04:29:43 <yebyen> you should never pay the fees if you are being honest with yourself and paying attention, yeah
352 2013-03-05 04:30:27 <yebyen> the fees double each time you pay them
353 2013-03-05 04:30:48 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
354 2013-03-05 04:30:55 <petertodd> Ha, something tells me this is a lot more effective than you'd think... people are remarkable honest.
355 2013-03-05 04:30:57 [7] has joined
356 2013-03-05 04:30:58 <yebyen> i especially laughed when i found the "exponentially moar money" graph
357 2013-03-05 04:31:12 b4tt3r136 has joined
358 2013-03-05 04:31:31 <petertodd> I wonder how far people actually go down that graph?
359 2013-03-05 04:31:40 <yebyen> beeminder.com/meta
360 2013-03-05 04:32:21 b4tt3r135 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
361 2013-03-05 04:32:24 <yebyen> https://www.beeminder.com/meta/goals/revenue
362 2013-03-05 04:32:27 <yebyen> could fail in 3 days
363 2013-03-05 04:32:29 Ferroh has joined
364 2013-03-05 04:32:41 <yebyen> looks good so far
365 2013-03-05 04:32:49 random_cat has joined
366 2013-03-05 04:33:02 <yebyen> i haven't been watching though so no way to know if they changed the goal before :)
367 2013-03-05 04:33:16 <petertodd> It'd be funny to make a version of that called BTC-minder, where if you go off the path it takes your bitcoins and sarifices them to mining fees.
368 2013-03-05 04:33:35 <gmaxwell> petertodd: sounds like a wallet addon feature. :P
369 2013-03-05 04:33:58 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yes! I mean, it's kinda like, it's testing your fidelity...
370 2013-03-05 04:34:01 <gmaxwell> "enter your private key now so I can sacrifice your coins"
371 2013-03-05 04:34:06 <yebyen> all i know is i had lots of money before but i was drowning in student loan interest
372 2013-03-05 04:34:35 freakazoid has joined
373 2013-03-05 04:34:36 <yebyen> and now i'm getting ahead
374 2013-03-05 04:34:42 <petertodd> yebyen: Good on you!
375 2013-03-05 04:34:44 <yebyen> they mailed me a statement that says $23 due this month
376 2013-03-05 04:35:01 <gmaxwell> "no no, don't pay us so fast!"
377 2013-03-05 04:35:16 jgarzik has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
378 2013-03-05 04:35:16 <yebyen> exactlly
379 2013-03-05 04:35:26 b4tt3r136 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
380 2013-03-05 04:37:07 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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384 2013-03-05 04:41:27 <yebyen> so what do i comment to disable checkpoints in 0.7.2
385 2013-03-05 04:41:44 bitit has joined
386 2013-03-05 04:42:06 <SomeoneWeird> ...why disable them?
387 2013-03-05 04:42:26 <yebyen> CheckBlock should return true
388 2013-03-05 04:42:29 <yebyen> looks like
389 2013-03-05 04:42:47 <yebyen> SomeoneWeird: to mine a local testnet from the genesis block
390 2013-03-05 04:43:08 <SomeoneWeird> testnetinabox?
391 2013-03-05 04:43:29 b4tt3r136 has joined
392 2013-03-05 04:43:36 <yebyen> comes with pre-mined blocks up to the checkpoint
393 2013-03-05 04:43:40 <yebyen> don't want
394 2013-03-05 04:43:56 <gmaxwell> yebyen: why don't you want that?
395 2013-03-05 04:45:34 coolsa has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
396 2013-03-05 04:45:35 <yebyen> i want to take N computers and link them up in a vpn testnet to give them all a performance/availability rating
397 2013-03-05 04:45:50 <SomeoneWeird> wut
398 2013-03-05 04:45:53 <yebyen> lol
399 2013-03-05 04:45:58 <yebyen> measured in bitcoins
400 2013-03-05 04:46:01 macd has joined
401 2013-03-05 04:46:06 <yebyen> testcoins
402 2013-03-05 04:46:47 <yebyen> no good reason
403 2013-03-05 04:47:02 <yebyen> wanted to see why i can't, satisfied that I know the reason
404 2013-03-05 04:47:16 <yebyen> going to find out if this compiles
405 2013-03-05 04:47:33 abrkn has joined
406 2013-03-05 04:47:54 <yebyen> bah, no fakeroot without sysv ipc
407 2013-03-05 04:50:14 <midnightmagic> yebyen: You can do the same thing regardless of whether you mine from genesis or not.
408 2013-03-05 04:50:46 <yebyen> yes but then i have to explain where the coins from the first blocks that I threw away went
409 2013-03-05 04:50:54 <yebyen> when i put it on the graph
410 2013-03-05 04:51:13 <yebyen> and they can be recovered from sourceforge
411 2013-03-05 04:51:26 <midnightmagic> yebyen: startfrom=N where N is the point you start mining at.
412 2013-03-05 04:52:09 <midnightmagic> yebyen: You could just run p2pool on testnet and watch the graphs.
413 2013-03-05 04:52:13 <yebyen> there will still be valid coins that I didn't mine
414 2013-03-05 04:52:18 <yebyen> p2pool i hadn't heard of
415 2013-03-05 04:52:19 <midnightmagic> yebyen: Or testnet-in-a-box..
416 2013-03-05 04:52:21 <yebyen> i will check it out
417 2013-03-05 04:52:47 <midnightmagic> .. yeah but so what?
418 2013-03-05 04:54:08 <yebyen> i'm not making up my own block magic, i did that before
419 2013-03-05 04:54:12 <yebyen> google bitcrapd
420 2013-03-05 04:54:27 <yebyen> they're not for spending so i'm not in a hurry to have mature coins
421 2013-03-05 04:54:56 <SomeoneWeird> :\
422 2013-03-05 04:57:15 <yebyen> i am interested in working through the issues you have when you recompile a source package on debian in this platform
423 2013-03-05 04:57:38 ahbritto has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
424 2013-03-05 04:57:54 <yebyen> i just learned about dpkg-source --commit
425 2013-03-05 04:58:11 ahbritto_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
426 2013-03-05 04:58:26 <yebyen> ubuntu let me build a package with modifications to source without doing that
427 2013-03-05 04:58:43 <yebyen> didn't even suggest it, unless it scrolled by too fast to read
428 2013-03-05 04:58:58 <yebyen> i am glad I know that now
429 2013-03-05 04:59:14 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
430 2013-03-05 04:59:21 <midnightmagic> p2pool will take smaller-diff solutions and chart the speed of the solves in some nice graphs. If you're seriously just looking for a speed graph, then actual coin rewards isn't what you're looking for. cpuminers are terrible: why do you want to use bitcoin as a speed measure anyway? What is it about bitcoin that is actually special enough to validate it as a means of describing the strength of a machine?
431 2013-03-05 05:00:37 <yebyen> i just made up a reason because I was being interrogated :)
432 2013-03-05 05:00:53 <yebyen> when i do graphs, i will actually be graphing slush api
433 2013-03-05 05:01:18 <midnightmagic> i guessed that part. you are being "interrogated" because usually this sort of question is divorced from the purpose in a sub-optimal way.
434 2013-03-05 05:01:42 <midnightmagic> s/sub-optimal//g
435 2013-03-05 05:02:12 <yebyen> here is a question
436 2013-03-05 05:02:29 <yebyen> why are the testnet coins in testnet-in-a-box not distributed evenly?
437 2013-03-05 05:02:40 <yebyen> node 1 has many more than node 2
438 2013-03-05 05:02:46 <yebyen> how fair is that :)
439 2013-03-05 05:02:49 <midnightmagic> someone probably just snapshotted a real testnet
440 2013-03-05 05:02:59 <yebyen> i thought they would be 50/50
441 2013-03-05 05:03:08 <CodeShark> if all the machines are equal, they should approach 50/50 in the long run
442 2013-03-05 05:03:19 <CodeShark> but in the short term, there's significant variance
443 2013-03-05 05:03:43 <yebyen> i wanted to try a testnet because I wanted to see what would happen when one node controls 51% or more
444 2013-03-05 05:04:05 <CodeShark> the distribution will also approach 51% in the long run
445 2013-03-05 05:04:13 <CodeShark> (ignoring reward halving)
446 2013-03-05 05:04:28 <yebyen> it may have been problems with the branch I used to make bitcrapd
447 2013-03-05 05:04:41 <yebyen> but i occasionally had trouble spending coins I mined on my network
448 2013-03-05 05:04:50 <yebyen> usually toward the end of the coins I was holding
449 2013-03-05 05:05:14 <yebyen> not sure if because not enough tx fee paid, or because of 51%
450 2013-03-05 05:05:24 <CodeShark> what does 51% have to do with anything?
451 2013-03-05 05:05:25 <yebyen> i know some of my nodes were much beefier than others
452 2013-03-05 05:05:56 <yebyen> CodeShark: my understanding (from reading articles, not code mind you) is that if one person controls 51% of the power, that person can block transactions from being published
453 2013-03-05 05:06:10 <yebyen> i have no idea if this is a feature built into the client that happens automatically
454 2013-03-05 05:06:12 <CodeShark> yes, but it requires a deliberate attack
455 2013-03-05 05:06:21 <CodeShark> it won't just happen automatically :p
456 2013-03-05 05:06:22 <yebyen> i've also heard of network going into "defense mode"
457 2013-03-05 05:06:44 <midnightmagic> some of them, some of the time.
458 2013-03-05 05:06:44 macd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
459 2013-03-05 05:07:00 <CodeShark> unless you're doing some doublespending or deliberately blocking transactions you won't see any of this
460 2013-03-05 05:07:05 <yebyen> well i have friends that know less than me and I can't really show them a lot of things without a controlled environment
461 2013-03-05 05:07:44 <yebyen> least of which is bitcoin related things
462 2013-03-05 05:07:56 <yebyen> "why should I join your vpn" for instance
463 2013-03-05 05:08:37 <CodeShark> there are plenty of better benchmarks than cpumining :)
464 2013-03-05 05:08:39 mixer_mad has joined
465 2013-03-05 05:09:25 <yebyen> sure :) who knows if cpuminer is optimized for armhf/tegra2 either
466 2013-03-05 05:09:41 <yebyen> speaking of which, does anyone have a transformer and run it android-free
467 2013-03-05 05:09:47 <CodeShark> cpuminer is not optimized, period
468 2013-03-05 05:09:48 <yebyen> i have the old TF-101
469 2013-03-05 05:09:53 <CodeShark> cpus suck at mining
470 2013-03-05 05:10:25 <yebyen> would my tegra2 outpace an nvidia onboard chip that does 4mhash/s
471 2013-03-05 05:10:42 <yebyen> does it even do cuda
472 2013-03-05 05:11:18 <CodeShark> nvidia also sucks at mining
473 2013-03-05 05:11:33 <yebyen> too bad ATI isn't in any tablets
474 2013-03-05 05:12:30 <yebyen> all of these experiments i can do without taking down the ATI mining rig in the next room
475 2013-03-05 05:13:08 <yebyen> it's not productive to benchmark fast machines :) unless it can be done while they are pumping out coins
476 2013-03-05 05:13:33 <gmaxwell> Hm. Perhaps SignSignature should be removed from the CreateTransaction loop. Instead it should use conservative estimates of the signature size... any smarter solver would need to in any case. Then it would be easier to have the GUI approve the exact transaction before signing.
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518 2013-03-05 06:48:44 <pmknutsen> question about bitcoind and bitcoin-qt on linux: i'm still downloading the initial blockchain. qt was extremely slow. started bitcoind which was faster and completed yday (224k blocks). still, today when i start qt it insist on downloading blocks from where i left it. i.e. all blocks ARE downloaded by qt doesn't seem to register it. anyone with an idea why? i thought qt and bitcoind ran off the same folders/files
519 2013-03-05 06:48:44 <pmknutsen> in ~?
520 2013-03-05 06:49:31 hasha_ is now known as hasha
521 2013-03-05 06:49:37 <gmaxwell> pmknutsen: I answered you earlier in another channel.
522 2013-03-05 06:49:56 <pmknutsen> apologies, I didnt see that. let me go back and read that
523 2013-03-05 06:50:03 <gmaxwell> Is there a chance your -qt version is old, e.g. bitcoin 0.7.2? 0.8 and 0.7.2 keep the data in different places.
524 2013-03-05 06:54:38 pmknutsen has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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532 2013-03-05 07:15:06 <muhoo> is there any clean way to get out of "Safe mode: Warning:" ?
533 2013-03-05 07:15:29 <muhoo> other than wiping stuff out and redownloading 6GB?
534 2013-03-05 07:16:39 <Luke-Jr> if it's really corrupt, -reindex
535 2013-03-05 07:18:32 <gmaxwell> muhoo: _why_ are you in safemode?
536 2013-03-05 07:18:56 <gmaxwell> muhoo: go look in the log and see what error its really throwing
537 2013-03-05 07:19:07 <muhoo> gmaxwell: unsure. will look.
538 2013-03-05 07:20:14 nanotube has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
539 2013-03-05 07:20:14 gribble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
540 2013-03-05 07:22:22 <muhoo> hmm, it's complaining that the argument must be a hexadecimal string, but it *is*
541 2013-03-05 07:22:33 <muhoo> i wrapped quotes around it.
542 2013-03-05 07:22:47 <petertodd> what's the argument?
543 2013-03-05 07:23:09 <muhoo> bitcoind decoderawtransaction "0100000005f5d4a0341cb7fbc7f928cfb94f13122c5d978bdbe05487be1317af80716fb87c0100000000fffffffff5f06b5261be2bdb5822f9daf56ee6a5df3eab1714f86b8757f5ddc4d22a26610100000000ffffffff7e07612e3d80ce4370e9de280b89b07bf5ed717c7fb2f6507458bfbe23d9acbf0000000000ffffffff1f3bf78901af985bbad5fd7d755fdb3a46a711e2f84895907d8f01713716df740000000000ffffffff9acc6b6efb21e6b1e6200dd7c271ff3a886bb41bf16b17ef8fc62abe7abf913100000
544 2013-03-05 07:24:11 <muhoo> does that work for you?
545 2013-03-05 07:25:49 <gmaxwell> get rid of the quote.
546 2013-03-05 07:26:00 <muhoo> once i look at the damn thing, i'll sign it and send it back.
547 2013-03-05 07:26:15 <gmaxwell> oh your problem it that you're truncated.
548 2013-03-05 07:26:16 Hasimir- has quit (Quit: Vidi, Vici, Veni.)
549 2013-03-05 07:26:18 <gmaxwell> the length is odd.
550 2013-03-05 07:26:19 <petertodd> muhoo: it might have been truncated
551 2013-03-05 07:26:55 <petertodd> muhoo: try this http://pastebin.com/dYSEBLUr
552 2013-03-05 07:27:04 nanotube has joined
553 2013-03-05 07:27:17 <muhoo> oh yeah, it was hella truncated
554 2013-03-05 07:28:05 <petertodd> ha, good thing it was truncated to an odd length...
555 2013-03-05 07:28:25 <gmaxwell> well I added an extra 0 and got
556 2013-03-05 07:28:26 <gmaxwell> error: {"code":-22,"message":"TX decode failed"}
557 2013-03-05 07:28:48 <muhoo> nope, worked perfectly. signing.
558 2013-03-05 07:29:24 <muhoo> heh, what, no 10000BTC outputs?
559 2013-03-05 07:29:59 <petertodd> muhoo: talk to gmaxwell, you seen how many coins that guy has?
560 2013-03-05 07:30:06 <muhoo> hehehe
561 2013-03-05 07:30:11 <muhoo> "has"
562 2013-03-05 07:30:43 <petertodd> what? he sends transactions with like 40kBTC!
563 2013-03-05 07:31:02 <gmaxwell> I need to do a taint analysis to figure out how many adresses 1Gmaxwell is now linked to.
564 2013-03-05 07:31:12 <petertodd> blockchain.info says quite a few...
565 2013-03-05 07:31:15 <muhoo> richest taint in all the land
566 2013-03-05 07:31:51 <petertodd> sigh... I asked Luke if he wanted to share his taint with me, and he didn't even respond :(
567 2013-03-05 07:31:57 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea but it doesn't give stats like how many btc in txn that "I"'ve done.
568 2013-03-05 07:31:57 <muhoo> hahahaha
569 2013-03-05 07:32:21 <muhoo> maybe tell him it's a way to make SD go away, he'll do it.
570 2013-03-05 07:32:56 <petertodd> gmaxwell: what, are you saying my taint's just too small?
571 2013-03-05 07:33:52 gribble has joined
572 2013-03-05 07:34:17 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
573 2013-03-05 07:36:03 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
574 2013-03-05 07:37:13 <petertodd> sigh, my trolling trufflz into accepting payment on a 0.7 client has quite failed...
575 2013-03-05 07:37:23 <petertodd> turns out he is just a newb (or a newb scammer)
576 2013-03-05 07:37:34 Skav has joined
577 2013-03-05 07:37:45 <gmaxwell> Slight scammer vibes there.
578 2013-03-05 07:37:56 bitit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
579 2013-03-05 07:38:10 <Skav> can anyone provide me with a little help looking to set btc as a default currency
580 2013-03-05 07:38:13 <Skav> for my store
581 2013-03-05 07:38:54 FredEE has joined
582 2013-03-05 07:39:19 knotwork has joined
583 2013-03-05 07:40:57 ielo has joined
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585 2013-03-05 07:51:41 gritcoin has joined
586 2013-03-05 07:52:26 <Skav> anyone have a idea for me i'm using blockchain.info rpc
587 2013-03-05 07:52:37 Mandrius has joined
588 2013-03-05 07:55:39 <lianj> Skav: thought about using coinbase?
589 2013-03-05 07:56:08 <Skav> why woukld i do that
590 2013-03-05 07:56:11 <Skav> would*
591 2013-03-05 07:56:23 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
592 2013-03-05 07:56:41 <lianj> using their merchant tools for the store
593 2013-03-05 07:56:48 <Skav> i'm using opencart need to see how i get btc as a default
594 2013-03-05 07:56:50 Acciaio has joined
595 2013-03-05 07:57:07 <lianj> oh, ok.. ignore what i said then
596 2013-03-05 07:57:29 <Acciaio> thats no good
597 2013-03-05 07:57:33 <Acciaio> http://blockchain.info/it/tx-index/58401363
598 2013-03-05 07:58:58 <Skav> for it to update the USD
599 2013-03-05 07:58:59 <petertodd> interesting, tx malliability with a non-satoshidice tx
600 2013-03-05 07:59:03 <Skav> not the other way around
601 2013-03-05 08:00:09 <lianj> petertodd: one 1dice output
602 2013-03-05 08:00:13 CaptainBlaze has joined
603 2013-03-05 08:00:16 <petertodd> oh, never mind, missed it
604 2013-03-05 08:00:45 <Nesetalis> -stares at the price of bitcoins- o.o
605 2013-03-05 08:00:57 <gmaxwell> 1diceaHT4u17eD6ALYNwZfXFvnUsDU9wz - (Non spesi) 0.000075 BTC
606 2013-03-05 08:01:06 <gmaxwell> Acciaio: are you making those bloated up txn?
607 2013-03-05 08:01:25 <gmaxwell> Acciaio: why are you doing that? thats an insane number of tiny outputs.
608 2013-03-05 08:01:50 <Acciaio> gmaxwell it is the output from coinvisitor.com
609 2013-03-05 08:02:26 <Skav> Acciaio: should tell the admin about it
610 2013-03-05 08:02:39 <Skav> gmaxwell: do you have a idea on my problem
611 2013-03-05 08:03:05 <gmaxwell> Skav: no clue about blockchain.info, I normally recommend people not to use it.
612 2013-03-05 08:03:29 <Skav> gmaxwell: what do you suggest than for a store
613 2013-03-05 08:04:01 <Skav> need a payment gateway but also need the store to be in BTC as default currency
614 2013-03-05 08:04:21 <Acciaio> gmaxwell, so now? I asked you many time on how to prevent transaction retransmission but no answer and now??? what can I do?
615 2013-03-05 08:04:25 <gmaxwell> I'm not sure what the latest options are.
616 2013-03-05 08:05:43 <gmaxwell> #bitcoin-dev.log:02:08 < gmaxwell> Acciaio: to recover coins stuck by unconfirmed transactions you must rebuild the wallet. Make a backup and use the salvagewallet option to bitcoin
617 2013-03-05 08:05:48 <gmaxwell> #bitcoin-dev.log:11:02 < gmaxwell> Acciaio: run salvage wallet on the wallet in question (after backing it up).
618 2013-03-05 08:05:51 <gmaxwell> #bitcoin-dev.log:14:28 < gmaxwell> How can I stop Acciaio from retransmitting an answered question?
619 2013-03-05 08:06:09 <gmaxwell> Acciaio: is coinvisitor your site?
620 2013-03-05 08:06:16 <Acciaio> gmaxwell, I can't run this command with an encrypted wallet
621 2013-03-05 08:06:43 <gmaxwell> Acciaio: yea, okay, so need a mildly patched version of bitcoin to run salvagewallet with an encrypted wallet due to some bugs.
622 2013-03-05 08:06:50 <gmaxwell> Acciaio: are you setup to compile bitcoin?
623 2013-03-05 08:07:10 <Acciaio> not on production
624 2013-03-05 08:07:25 <gmaxwell> okay, well, I'll open an issue and try to remember to fix it before the next release.
625 2013-03-05 08:07:34 <Acciaio> but yes I can compile it locally
626 2013-03-05 08:07:56 <Acciaio> thanks
627 2013-03-05 08:10:03 <Acciaio> but I'm a php developer. I can read something written in cpp but not everything
628 2013-03-05 08:11:02 <Acciaio> but now what can I do with that transaction?
629 2013-03-05 08:11:13 <Acciaio> I will triplespend it with an huge fee?
630 2013-03-05 08:13:29 ovidiusoft has joined
631 2013-03-05 08:14:01 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
632 2013-03-05 08:15:11 <gmaxwell> Acciaio: the transaction is completed, the only funds you are out is your change.
633 2013-03-05 08:15:47 <gmaxwell> I assume this output: 1DhnKD1ucuXih1Cye8b4fYrYcTmATeFhZW - (Non spesi) 2.51070663 BTC
634 2013-03-05 08:16:00 <gmaxwell> you could dumpprivkey on that one address, and import it into a new wallet.
635 2013-03-05 08:16:46 <Acciaio> yes this is the way I have doublespend the first transaction
636 2013-03-05 08:17:05 <Acciaio> doublespent
637 2013-03-05 08:17:15 <gmaxwell> the first transaction is confirmed you cannot doublespend it. You can just recover the change.. all those patments are made.
638 2013-03-05 08:17:52 <gmaxwell> basically this transaction was 'doublespent' by an almost exact copy of it. The only differences are insiginficant.
639 2013-03-05 08:18:09 <gmaxwell> the only reason it is a proble for you is because it's holding your change hostage.
640 2013-03-05 08:18:53 <Acciaio> the first transaction was dropped as low fee the second one use an higher fee
641 2013-03-05 08:19:00 DamascusVG has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
642 2013-03-05 08:19:22 <Acciaio> no gmaxwell I also would like to understand how to manage a situation like this
643 2013-03-05 08:21:41 Adifex has joined
644 2013-03-05 08:22:29 <gmaxwell> I don't know what to say, I don't know what you're even doing to generate txn that look like this... it's full of tiny inputs and outputs.
645 2013-03-05 08:22:42 DamascusVG has joined
646 2013-03-05 08:22:42 DamascusVG has quit (Changing host)
647 2013-03-05 08:22:42 DamascusVG has joined
648 2013-03-05 08:22:44 <gmaxwell> If you were not standing here talking to me and I saw this transaction I'd think it was someone trying to break things.
649 2013-03-05 08:23:49 <Acciaio> no coinvisitor.com is an advertising/faucet site made by poor people to poor people
650 2013-03-05 08:24:21 <Acciaio> there are a lot of input and output because I send a transaction/day
651 2013-03-05 08:25:06 pmknutsen has joined
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657 2013-03-05 08:26:56 <gmaxwell> Acciaio: ah. I see.
658 2013-03-05 08:27:02 <gmaxwell> Okay at least I understand.
659 2013-03-05 08:27:29 <Luke-Jr> Acciaio: it's pretty pointless to send someone smaller than 0.01 BTC even if you can, since they'll need to pay a fee to spend it
660 2013-03-05 08:27:37 <Luke-Jr> (even if there were something that cheap to spend it on O.o)
661 2013-03-05 08:27:58 <Acciaio> not if they use instawallet
662 2013-03-05 08:28:13 <Luke-Jr> why not?
663 2013-03-05 08:28:45 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: because it can do internal trades for any value.
664 2013-03-05 08:28:50 <gmaxwell> I assume.
665 2013-03-05 08:29:44 <Acciaio> and there was the limit but users definetly don't like it
666 2013-03-05 08:30:56 <gmaxwell> Acciaio: instead of sending very tiny amounts you could send larger amounts with low probablity. e.g. intead of 0.001 you send 0.01 with 1/10 chance.
667 2013-03-05 08:32:37 <petertodd> Acciaio: could you maintain an instawallet/easywallet account to send funds off-chain?
668 2013-03-05 08:33:00 * petertodd wonders if those ewallets have a "address is on the wallet" feature...
669 2013-03-05 08:33:24 <lianj> "address is on the wallet" ?
670 2013-03-05 08:33:41 <Acciaio> don't know easywallet but instawallet is a little limited for me
671 2013-03-05 08:33:55 <petertodd> yeah, like, can I query instawallet and ask them if I should send the transaction to address 1foo via my instawallet account instead of in a transaction?
672 2013-03-05 08:34:16 <petertodd> even some simple standard to do that would be the beginnings of a more usable off-chain tx system...
673 2013-03-05 08:34:33 <Acciaio> no
674 2013-03-05 08:35:00 <Acciaio> I can't do this with actual instawallet api
675 2013-03-05 08:35:11 <petertodd> I should try talking to instawallet and easy wallet about this...
676 2013-03-05 08:35:36 <petertodd> Acciaio: my big project is off-chain tx systems
677 2013-03-05 08:35:40 <Acciaio> it will be great also for a lot of other site like me
678 2013-03-05 08:35:58 <petertodd> Absolutely, and the tech to do this now wouldn't be too hard.
679 2013-03-05 08:36:30 <petertodd> I mean, auremXchange and MtGox codes and all that stuff already are doing it I think; I haven't investigated how all that works enough.
680 2013-03-05 08:37:03 mtve has joined
681 2013-03-05 08:37:03 <lianj> hard to call it still bitcoin then
682 2013-03-05 08:37:42 <petertodd> lianj: like it or not, the way bitcoin works is spectacularly inefficient: telling the whole world every time you buy a 5cent candy doesn't scale
683 2013-03-05 08:38:33 <lianj> true, but doing the off-chain site centered this is just like paypal. balance values changed in a db
684 2013-03-05 08:38:51 <petertodd> sure, that's the easiest way to do it, but you can do much better with crypto
685 2013-03-05 08:39:17 <petertodd> for instance, gmaxwell and I have been talking about systems which inherently allow you to audit the balance books, in particular, to be sure that real btc is backing your balance
686 2013-03-05 08:40:04 <lianj> looking forward to something good there, to get mBTC working again
687 2013-03-05 08:40:33 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
688 2013-03-05 08:41:10 <petertodd> yeah, I'll be frank, it'll involve more trust than direct, on chain transactions, but it can still be fairly decentralized, and unlike on chain you can have instant tx's and truely private txs
689 2013-03-05 08:42:49 <lianj> please make it somewhat simple though ;)
690 2013-03-05 08:43:11 <petertodd> alright, here, lets solve a problem
691 2013-03-05 08:43:19 <petertodd> so we'll need addresses for this right
692 2013-03-05 08:43:20 pmknutsen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
693 2013-03-05 08:44:05 <petertodd> so I'm thinking, urls: trustbits:mydomain.com/76a91406f1b6703d3f56427bfcfd372f952d50d04b64bd88ac <- pubkey
694 2013-03-05 08:45:02 <petertodd> could also do it email style too...
695 2013-03-05 08:47:46 toffoo has quit ()
696 2013-03-05 08:48:22 <lianj> continue :P
697 2013-03-05 08:49:03 <petertodd> ha, well, you see, basically the issue with all this stuff, is your coins are being held *somewhere*, the key is to make it easy to identify that "somewhere", and your account with them, just like email
698 2013-03-05 08:49:17 <petertodd> although, I think we're maybe better if we hide all that under a payment protocol mostly
699 2013-03-05 08:49:32 <petertodd> like how bitcoin has addresses, but ideally you'd just have a wallet
700 2013-03-05 08:49:55 <petertodd> and like bitcoin, you can start with addresses, and do more complex stuff later
701 2013-03-05 08:51:52 <petertodd> another simple "starter project" would just be an irc bot thing, for say, bitcoin-otc trades to make them instant and private
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709 2013-03-05 08:57:24 FellowTraveler has joined
710 2013-03-05 08:57:47 <FellowTraveler> Easiest OT installation instructions of all time: Â 1. Install Ubuntu 12.04 Â (I did it using Parallels to test this.)
711 2013-03-05 08:57:54 <FellowTraveler> 2.  Edit this file: /etc/apt/sources.list  to add this line: deb http://repo.openwallet.org/ubuntu precise utils
712 2013-03-05 08:58:01 <FellowTraveler> 3. sudo apt-get install opentxs
713 2013-03-05 08:58:22 <FellowTraveler> From there, OT should be installed. You can run the server using 'otserver' and you can use the client: Â opentxs help
714 2013-03-05 08:58:22 <FellowTraveler> also opentxs list, opentxs stat, opentxs showincoming, opentxs sendcheque, etc
715 2013-03-05 08:58:43 <FellowTraveler> If you run it with blank data, it will walk you through the process of creating a fresh server
716 2013-03-05 08:58:43 <FellowTraveler> If you prefer to test it using sample data, then grab OT from git: Â Â git clone git://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions
717 2013-03-05 08:58:49 <FellowTraveler> then you can copy the contents of Open-Transactions/sample-data/ot-sample-data into the ~/.ot folder, and test it out using existing sample data.
718 2013-03-05 08:58:59 <FellowTraveler> there are also now test scripts for bash, and python, and php, as well as the opentxs command line tool itself is written in OT script, and thus you can copy sections of it, whenever you need to see how to use the OT API in code.
719 2013-03-05 08:59:00 <FellowTraveler> .
720 2013-03-05 09:00:29 <gwillen> hey FellowTraveler :-)
721 2013-03-05 09:01:42 <FellowTraveler> Hi gwillen, I hope things are well, and that you find these tools useful.
722 2013-03-05 09:02:15 <FellowTraveler> The API is very high level now, as you can see in the sample scripts, and you should be able to do anything you need using OT with very little code.
723 2013-03-05 09:03:05 Ahimoth has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
724 2013-03-05 09:03:11 <gwillen> FellowTraveler: Ripple.com isn't using OT, are they? The thing they're doing with gateways seems really similar.
725 2013-03-05 09:03:40 <FellowTraveler> gwillen I don't know, if they are using it, they haven't asked for any support. So they must be really smart :)
726 2013-03-05 09:03:45 <gwillen> hahahaha
727 2013-03-05 09:03:46 * gwillen nods
728 2013-03-05 09:04:06 <FellowTraveler> There are people on #opentransactions who can provide support for various platforms. We have an iOS skeleton project now, and Windows project files, and obviously it builds on UNIX and now any jackass can install it using apt-get
729 2013-03-05 09:04:12 Ahimoth has joined
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731 2013-03-05 09:04:12 Ahimoth has joined
732 2013-03-05 09:04:15 t7 has joined
733 2013-03-05 09:04:37 <FellowTraveler> (And probably will.)
734 2013-03-05 09:04:57 <FellowTraveler> Caveat: for experimental purposes only. Ta-ta!
735 2013-03-05 09:05:00 FellowTraveler has left ()
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752 2013-03-05 09:43:22 <lianj> "Hope we dont get goxxed." haha
753 2013-03-05 09:43:33 Goonie has joined
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755 2013-03-05 09:48:02 zrad has joined
756 2013-03-05 09:54:44 <muhoo> umm, wat? Misbehaving: 68.229.30.229:8333 (0 -> 0)
757 2013-03-05 09:54:54 <muhoo> someone's being naughty, i guess
758 2013-03-05 09:55:13 zrad has quit (Quit: Leaving)
759 2013-03-05 09:57:08 zrad has joined
760 2013-03-05 09:57:42 <lianj> muhoo: just sending too much txs
761 2013-03-05 09:59:08 zrad has quit (Client Quit)
762 2013-03-05 09:59:21 nus-- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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784 2013-03-05 10:52:48 axhlf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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787 2013-03-05 11:02:31 axhlf has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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792 2013-03-05 11:18:03 <muhoo> now i'm getting tons of orphan blocks.
793 2013-03-05 11:18:20 <muhoo> weird
794 2013-03-05 11:18:39 <muhoo> ProcessBlock: ORPHAN BLOCK, prev=00000000000003eb2589878d50f38cd80835eac3d5d66ba2cb798a25acf35a94, etc
795 2013-03-05 11:18:45 <sipa> yes, happens
796 2013-03-05 11:19:52 bitit has joined
797 2013-03-05 11:20:03 t7 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
798 2013-03-05 11:20:32 <muhoo> that one looks like it is in the chain tho http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000000029983f8d6cc527bf82641063f5c289a027a2a3bddcc020fd102
799 2013-03-05 11:20:53 <muhoo> maybe something went sideways with my sync
800 2013-03-05 11:21:25 <sipa> muhoo: typically it just means you're receiving blocks from a peer out-of-order
801 2013-03-05 11:21:39 <sipa> it happens when a new block is announced while you're already syncing
802 2013-03-05 11:21:44 <muhoo> thanks, that'd make sense. my connectivity died for a minute
803 2013-03-05 11:25:12 <muhoo> i'm guessing this is a pool? http://blockexplorer.com/address/151z2eoe2D9f6cohGNNU96GsKAqLfYP8mN
804 2013-03-05 11:26:32 <muhoo> at $40/BTC, those 50BTC bounties are going to make some wealthy miners
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806 2013-03-05 11:27:23 rbecker is now known as RBecker
807 2013-03-05 11:30:27 fishfish is now known as fishfish|AFK
808 2013-03-05 11:30:57 fishfish is now known as AFK!~fishfish@109.238.67.130|fishfish
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814 2013-03-05 11:37:28 <doublec> muhoo: what 50 btc bounties?
815 2013-03-05 11:40:42 RBecker is now known as rbecker
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832 2013-03-05 12:18:42 <kriqCoin> Hi,
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846 2013-03-05 13:04:53 <HM> wow $40
847 2013-03-05 13:05:04 denisx has joined
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852 2013-03-05 13:13:18 <MC1984> whats the average across all exchanges
853 2013-03-05 13:21:47 Tycale is now known as Nietzschtml
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858 2013-03-05 13:38:46 <bitnumus> if i send BTC and it doesnt confirm for like 10 blocks
859 2013-03-05 13:38:49 <bitnumus> what options do i have?
860 2013-03-05 13:38:59 <bitnumus> i wasnt requested to send with a fee by client
861 2013-03-05 13:45:18 IronWard has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
862 2013-03-05 13:50:07 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
863 2013-03-05 13:51:47 <kjj> keep waiting. If it still hasn't been picked up after a day or so, then you can start thinking about ways to redo the transaction
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873 2013-03-05 14:04:35 <HM> i've seen people complain about slow transactions for fees both above and below 0.005
874 2013-03-05 14:06:51 axhlf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
875 2013-03-05 14:09:45 zooko has joined
876 2013-03-05 14:10:00 <bitnumus> a day or so? lol
877 2013-03-05 14:10:04 <bitnumus> wtf
878 2013-03-05 14:10:06 dvide has joined
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880 2013-03-05 14:12:19 Hashdog has joined
881 2013-03-05 14:13:00 <gavinandresen> bitnumus: what client sent it? And are you willing to tell us the transaction id?
882 2013-03-05 14:13:31 <Scrat> bitnumus: did you use b.i? because it will use long unconfirmed chains for inputs
883 2013-03-05 14:13:52 <bitnumus> satoshi client
884 2013-03-05 14:13:56 <bitnumus> it went through after 4 hours
885 2013-03-05 14:13:58 ProfMac has quit (Quit: Page closed)
886 2013-03-05 14:14:08 <kinlo> bitnumus: keep the client open, it must retransmit from time to time
887 2013-03-05 14:14:24 <bitnumus> kinlo, ill remember that, thanks
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900 2013-03-05 14:38:01 <MC1984> b.i uses unconfirmed inputs?
901 2013-03-05 14:38:41 <Scrat> MC1984: yessir
902 2013-03-05 14:39:34 <MC1984> didnt coinbase cause a shitstorm for doing that
903 2013-03-05 14:39:47 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
904 2013-03-05 14:41:56 <Scrat> bank deposits were involved there so people were upset (understandably so)
905 2013-03-05 14:44:43 jgarzik_ is now known as jgarzik
906 2013-03-05 14:44:49 <MC1984> its getting hard to run a node on this machine now
907 2013-03-05 14:45:25 <MC1984> i wish my server thing hadnt blown up
908 2013-03-05 14:52:40 Acciaio has joined
909 2013-03-05 14:54:37 <MC1984> i think Qt is quickly becoming non-viable for any single core machines
910 2013-03-05 14:55:22 <MC1984> i suppose thats not far different from sayings bitcoin is non-viable for my 486
911 2013-03-05 14:57:49 <MC1984> i was thinking about the block cap
912 2013-03-05 14:58:26 FredEE has joined
913 2013-03-05 14:58:26 <MC1984> theres good arguments for raising it, and theres good arguments for why uncapping it would be crazy
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915 2013-03-05 14:59:08 <MC1984> if youre looking at having a system that can handle a significant fraction of the worlds value exchange maybe
916 2013-03-05 14:59:37 <MC1984> and recognising that economic activity is linked to number of actual persons aliive
917 2013-03-05 14:59:51 <MC1984> (stongly or weakly i dont know)
918 2013-03-05 15:00:46 <MC1984> what about a fork to raise the block cap, in a controlled manner to avoid sudden and massive centralisation, to a level that takes ccount o the projected maximum human population on this planet
919 2013-03-05 15:00:59 <MC1984> 10 billion individuals or so i think?
920 2013-03-05 15:02:32 <MC1984> that is make some sort of estimate of how many bitcoin txn those people would create with a resonable penetration rate of the system, and slowly raise the cap to that final limit
921 2013-03-05 15:03:02 zooko has left ("#tahoe-lafs")
922 2013-03-05 15:03:05 <MC1984> i know this is vague as fuck btw
923 2013-03-05 15:03:15 <kjj> yes. and your estimates will totally be less arbitrary than 1 MB
924 2013-03-05 15:03:48 <MC1984> is that sarcasm
925 2013-03-05 15:04:00 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
926 2013-03-05 15:04:05 <MC1984> if there was a rigourous way to make an estimate such as that, it would be less arbitrary
927 2013-03-05 15:04:49 tyn has joined
928 2013-03-05 15:05:47 <kjj> if there was a rigourous way to estimate the future, then Einstein would be spinning in his grave. the past is easy to estimate, the future, not so much
929 2013-03-05 15:06:18 <MC1984> also the block cap increase curve should ideally take account of some sort of measure of the average computing/storage power available to a citizen
930 2013-03-05 15:06:23 <MC1984> over time
931 2013-03-05 15:06:32 <MC1984> fffffuck this is so vague
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934 2013-03-05 15:07:05 <MC1984> kjj its not that bad
935 2013-03-05 15:07:34 <kjj> you also need to keep in mind that the blockchain has very limited information
936 2013-03-05 15:08:14 <CodeShark> actually, Einstein did believe there was a rigorous way of estimating the future and it was one of the main points of contention he had with Bohr
937 2013-03-05 15:09:14 <kjj> he thought that it was a lack of cleverness on our part that made quantum processes probabalistic
938 2013-03-05 15:09:45 <MC1984> sigh guys
939 2013-03-05 15:09:50 <MC1984> m-my idea....
940 2013-03-05 15:10:30 <Scrat> MC1984: costanza.jpg
941 2013-03-05 15:10:54 <MC1984> bitcoin is a system for use by people, individuals, to other individuals
942 2013-03-05 15:11:21 <MC1984> the block cap has to go somewhere, it cant stay at one extreme of 1mb forever or the other extreme of uncapped
943 2013-03-05 15:11:28 <CodeShark> kjj: either lack of cleverness or real but unmeasurable (hidden) variables
944 2013-03-05 15:11:31 <helo> MC1984: of course it can stay at 1MB forever
945 2013-03-05 15:11:34 <helo> MC1984: why can't it?
946 2013-03-05 15:11:42 <MC1984> so tie its final state to the only variable that matters, the number of people alive?
947 2013-03-05 15:11:51 <kjj> lack of cleverness in unhiding those variables
948 2013-03-05 15:11:56 <Optimo> layers on top of it will exist
949 2013-03-05 15:12:16 <MC1984> helo cos it will stay decentralised as fuck by txn fees will be ruinous
950 2013-03-05 15:12:35 <MC1984> and it will cease to be a system usable by individuals
951 2013-03-05 15:12:43 <helo> MC1984: if the block size is too big, people won't be able to easily boot up a full node
952 2013-03-05 15:12:57 <helo> so they'll have to rely on a trusted 3rd party
953 2013-03-05 15:13:10 <Scrat> if you remove SD spam somehow I'd say 1MB is good for the forseeable future
954 2013-03-05 15:13:10 <Optimo> why are you sure bitcoin mut onyl be used intrapersonally?
955 2013-03-05 15:13:13 <MC1984> who said anything about too big
956 2013-03-05 15:13:31 <helo> MC1984: it's possible that >1MB is too big
957 2013-03-05 15:13:57 <MC1984> i said a gradual increase to a level that can reasonable support the average economic actiity of the maximum projected number of humans on this planet
958 2013-03-05 15:14:22 <MC1984> eventually MOORES LAW should have us home and dry then
959 2013-03-05 15:14:56 <MC1984> i dont think >1mb is too big
960 2013-03-05 15:14:59 <CodeShark> most institutional transactions will probably occur off the block chain
961 2013-03-05 15:15:06 <MC1984> gigabyte blocks today would suck ass though
962 2013-03-05 15:15:34 <Optimo> tehre will be otehr systems built around it. you can have derivitive systems using similar tech with exchanges
963 2013-03-05 15:15:46 <CodeShark> in fact, I'd say most institutional bitcoin transactions already occur off the block chain
964 2013-03-05 15:15:49 <Optimo> visacoin ;)
965 2013-03-05 15:15:52 <CodeShark> or at least a huge portion of them
966 2013-03-05 15:15:59 <helo> i doubt >1MB is too big, but it's ~impossible to know
967 2013-03-05 15:16:20 fishfish has joined
968 2013-03-05 15:16:23 <CodeShark> nobody should ever need more than 640k
969 2013-03-05 15:16:30 <Optimo> amen
970 2013-03-05 15:16:45 <MC1984> throwing your hands up in the air and saying lol offchain isnt good enough
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972 2013-03-05 15:17:13 <MC1984> if there might be a way to keep actual bitcoin accessible to actual people
973 2013-03-05 15:17:21 <Optimo> maybe there wont be
974 2013-03-05 15:17:24 <Optimo> like gold
975 2013-03-05 15:17:33 <MC1984> thats what i mean
976 2013-03-05 15:17:44 <Optimo> that's something for the future to decide
977 2013-03-05 15:17:50 <MC1984> look what happned with gold
978 2013-03-05 15:17:56 <helo> MC1984: i think 1MB would keep bitcoin accessible to actual people
979 2013-03-05 15:18:03 <Optimo> a travesty perhaps, but there wasnt enough gold for everyone to have some
980 2013-03-05 15:18:06 <MC1984> everyone just decided to unlink currency from it one century
981 2013-03-05 15:18:17 <helo> MC1984: there would be a fee, but it would be possible for anyone in the world to sync a full node and send a transaction
982 2013-03-05 15:18:24 <CodeShark> most of the gold mankind has mined is sitting in vaults doing absolutely nothing
983 2013-03-05 15:18:35 <kriqCoin> eat it
984 2013-03-05 15:18:37 <kriqCoin> oh wait
985 2013-03-05 15:18:57 <CodeShark> humans are perhaps the most ironic of all species
986 2013-03-05 15:18:58 <Optimo> I dont see that having another layer of currency usage on top of bitcoin is a bad thing
987 2013-03-05 15:18:58 <MC1984> no i just said txn fees with 1mb blocks and worldwide adoption would make bitcoin an interbank settlement netowrk only
988 2013-03-05 15:19:31 <Optimo> and if you want to buy into another one of these *coin blocks, you can
989 2013-03-05 15:19:47 <MC1984> one extreme of ruinous txn fees, another of ruinous centralisation
990 2013-03-05 15:20:00 <MC1984> or some sort of medium?
991 2013-03-05 15:20:19 <Optimo> the banks could use another blockchain/coin thingy
992 2013-03-05 15:20:29 <MC1984> based upon as i said the only variable i can think of that matters
993 2013-03-05 15:20:44 <Optimo> they only have to convince people to cash out
994 2013-03-05 15:20:53 <helo> "ruinous txn fees" means "very secure against double spend attacks"
995 2013-03-05 15:21:25 <MC1984> it means so secure dont even think about using it yourself citizen
996 2013-03-05 15:21:33 <helo> i suppose there may be a more profitable equilibrium on the curve
997 2013-03-05 15:23:28 <Optimo> inevitably eery wise soul will try to take advantage of these formulae, and there will have to be more and better technology in the future. bitcoin is just a bootstrap into a digital world
998 2013-03-05 15:24:01 <MC1984> i wish i was better at explaining shit
999 2013-03-05 15:24:07 <Optimo> I fully understand you
1000 2013-03-05 15:24:09 <MC1984> this is not how to win friends and influence people
1001 2013-03-05 15:24:20 <Optimo> I dont agree that bitcoin must remain intrapersonal for it's lifetime
1002 2013-03-05 15:24:39 <Optimo> 100 years from now there will be better tech
1003 2013-03-05 15:24:44 <MC1984> maybe not must remain
1004 2013-03-05 15:24:54 <MC1984> but i think the option must always be there
1005 2013-03-05 15:25:04 <MC1984> stupid fees removes the option
1006 2013-03-05 15:25:16 <Optimo> I coudl just give you my wallet
1007 2013-03-05 15:25:21 <Optimo> barter style
1008 2013-03-05 15:25:39 <CodeShark> I accept
1009 2013-03-05 15:25:45 <Optimo> maybe every wallet in the future only holds one satoshicoin
1010 2013-03-05 15:25:48 <MC1984> maybe it wont cost 3 cents to send a million dollar forever, but if it costs 30,000 then its fucked
1011 2013-03-05 15:26:12 <CodeShark> bitcoin is proof-of-concept more than anything
1012 2013-03-05 15:26:31 <CodeShark> it demonstrates the viability of a decentralized timestamp protocol
1013 2013-03-05 15:26:36 <Optimo> exactly. and other groups can adopt and use it and improve it. I'm still holding out to hear about Visacoin
1014 2013-03-05 15:26:38 <helo> bitcoin will definitely (barring unforseen legal or exploit type situations) be in use for a looong with 1MB blocks, and be extremely highly valued
1015 2013-03-05 15:26:57 <helo> and anyone will be able to install the client, and get synched up relatively quickly
1016 2013-03-05 15:27:04 <MC1984> god dammit every single bitcoin site in my bookmarks uses the same fucking bitcoin logo favicon from 2009
1017 2013-03-05 15:27:12 <MC1984> cant find shit
1018 2013-03-05 15:27:18 <Optimo> that icon gives a warm feeling
1019 2013-03-05 15:28:33 <helo> and they'll be able to send a transaction without even world powers having the ability to stop them
1020 2013-03-05 15:29:01 <helo> it seems reasonable that such a trump ability would have significant cost
1021 2013-03-05 15:29:09 <Optimo> even if that transaction way in the future is just bartering whole wallets
1022 2013-03-05 15:29:20 <CodeShark> impossible to regulate is NOT one of bitcoin's features
1023 2013-03-05 15:29:36 <helo> CodeShark: impossible to stop a transaction is
1024 2013-03-05 15:29:36 <Optimo> and not having competing tech is not one either
1025 2013-03-05 15:29:54 <CodeShark> what good is the transaction if a government can just confiscate your assets?
1026 2013-03-05 15:30:38 <CodeShark> or threaten you with prison?
1027 2013-03-05 15:30:59 <MC1984> they cant confiscate your coins if youre doing it proprly
1028 2013-03-05 15:31:02 <helo> CodeShark: bitcoin isn't designed to protect you from physical threats...
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1030 2013-03-05 15:31:18 <CodeShark> exactly, helo
1031 2013-03-05 15:31:20 <MC1984> anyone can throw you in a cage though, nothing to do with bitcoin
1032 2013-03-05 15:31:24 <Optimo> I like it better when people get miffed about the fact that a percentage of bitcoins are 'lost' forever
1033 2013-03-05 15:31:33 <CodeShark> it's not even really designed to protect you from fraudsters, scammers, or hackers
1034 2013-03-05 15:32:01 <CodeShark> but I digress :)
1035 2013-03-05 15:32:35 <Optimo> I should spend to a bunch of future addresses that arent in use yet. anonymous gifting to the future folk
1036 2013-03-05 15:32:42 <CodeShark> point is, amongst bitcoin's core design goals, "impossible to regulate" is not one of them
1037 2013-03-05 15:33:20 <MC1984> Optimo you dont understand how big the address space is
1038 2013-03-05 15:33:38 <CodeShark> 2^160? :)
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1040 2013-03-05 15:35:21 <CodeShark> even if you were to spend to one address per each grain of sand on earth, chances are still slim you would happen to hit upon an actual future address (unless a crappy random number generator is used)
1041 2013-03-05 15:35:31 <MC1984> that number doesnt mean shit to most people
1042 2013-03-05 15:35:44 <CodeShark> 1461501637330902918203684832716283019655932542976
1043 2013-03-05 15:36:00 <MC1984> i dont think anyone can comprehend what power of 160 really means
1044 2013-03-05 15:37:41 <CodeShark> by some estimates, a 70kg human has 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms in their body
1045 2013-03-05 15:38:57 <CodeShark> we're talking 208,785,948,190,128,963,584 bitcoin addresses for each of the atoms in your body
1046 2013-03-05 15:39:02 <CodeShark> lol
1047 2013-03-05 15:39:11 <CodeShark> different addresses
1048 2013-03-05 15:40:18 <CodeShark> 34,797,658,031 distinct bitcoin addresses for each atom of each person on earth
1049 2013-03-05 15:40:57 <CodeShark> 2^160 is a HUGE number :)
1050 2013-03-05 15:43:17 <MC1984> somone always ends up comparing it to the number of bed mites in every mattress in the universe or some shit
1051 2013-03-05 15:43:27 <CodeShark> lol
1052 2013-03-05 15:43:31 <MC1984> doesnt really help someone actually understand how big it is
1053 2013-03-05 15:43:42 <MC1984> i dont think a human brain can
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1055 2013-03-05 15:44:44 <CodeShark> and yet, 160 bits is still considered relatively small in the realm of cryptography :)
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1057 2013-03-05 15:46:16 <helo> CodeShark: bitcoin's goal is to enable people to send money without having to rely on centralized financial entities
1058 2013-03-05 15:46:37 <CodeShark> decentralization is certainly a core design goal
1059 2013-03-05 15:46:47 <Scrat> helo: send/store
1060 2013-03-05 15:46:56 <CodeShark> but decentralized does not imply impossible to regulate
1061 2013-03-05 15:47:08 <helo> ":
1062 2013-03-05 15:47:28 <CodeShark> we still have centralization at some level
1063 2013-03-05 15:47:47 <CodeShark> whether it be at the exchanges or in paying taxes
1064 2013-03-05 15:47:49 <helo> "A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution" that is all
1065 2013-03-05 15:48:32 <CodeShark> yes, that is indeed a stated design goal
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1076 2013-03-05 16:10:41 <HM> the more i type 'pubkey' the more i think about becoming a landlord
1077 2013-03-05 16:11:08 <HM> eh... publican even
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1083 2013-03-05 16:25:08 <Eliel_> CodeShark: don't worry, we'll sort out the centralization bugs given enough time.
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1092 2013-03-05 16:30:00 <HM> anyone know a SQLite database GUI that doesn't suck?
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1094 2013-03-05 16:30:13 <HM> I'm using Sqliteman but it keeps dropping AUTOINCREMENT
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1129 2013-03-05 17:17:36 <TD> hello
1130 2013-03-05 17:17:44 <gavinandresen> howdy!
1131 2013-03-05 17:18:54 <TD> this is an interesting paper. it describes an interesting kind of hash function that lets you do similar things to merkle trees, but without the need for log n extra hashes. it can do other things too.
1132 2013-03-05 17:18:55 <TD> http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~mdemare/pubs/owa.pdf
1133 2013-03-05 17:19:07 <TD> it's an "accumulating hash" where h(a,b,c) == h(a,c,b)
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1142 2013-03-05 17:27:01 <gmaxwell> TD: yea, but modexp.. not very fast.
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1148 2013-03-05 17:39:47 <jaakkos> sipa: i checked your blog entry about zfs-fuse. do you still use it or have you migrated to zfsonlinux?
1149 2013-03-05 17:41:28 <sipa> jaakkos: my desktop machine still has that setup, but i haven't turned it on in about 2 years :p
1150 2013-03-05 17:42:18 <HM> ah commutative hashing
1151 2013-03-05 17:42:28 <jaakkos> ok
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1160 2013-03-05 17:52:59 <amiller> TD, i've been reading a lot about accumulators, one of the problems with the RSA accumulator is that the size of the representation grows with each addition, unlike a normal hash
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1167 2013-03-05 17:56:19 <freewil> did the path of bitcoin.conf change in 0.8 for testnet
1168 2013-03-05 17:56:45 <sipa> no
1169 2013-03-05 17:56:50 root2_ has joined
1170 2013-03-05 17:57:13 <freewil> so it still behaves the same, doesnt expect bitcoin.conf in datadir/testnet3/bitcoin.conf
1171 2013-03-05 17:57:15 <freewil> ?
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1174 2013-03-05 17:59:35 <gmaxwell> freewil: testnet reads bitcoin.conf in datadir/ not datadir/testnet3
1175 2013-03-05 17:59:47 <sipa> unless you explicitly specify a -datadir
1176 2013-03-05 18:00:51 <freewil> i am specifying a datadir
1177 2013-03-05 18:00:52 hydrogenesis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1178 2013-03-05 18:01:01 <freewil> trying to run a private testnet
1179 2013-03-05 18:01:23 <sipa> in that case, the config in the exact directory you specify is used
1180 2013-03-05 18:01:28 <sipa> iirc
1181 2013-03-05 18:02:09 <freewil> seems like since upgrading to 0.8 my testnet-box is now connecting to the actual public testnet
1182 2013-03-05 18:06:15 <freewil> https://github.com/freewil/bitcoin-testnet-box/blob/master/2/bitcoin.conf
1183 2013-03-05 18:06:22 <freewil> https://github.com/freewil/bitcoin-testnet-box/blob/master/1/bitcoin.conf
1184 2013-03-05 18:08:29 fishfish has left ("Be back later")
1185 2013-03-05 18:08:56 <freewil> is there a dns bootstrap for testnet?
1186 2013-03-05 18:09:09 <freewil> i dont know how it is finding peers if irc=0
1187 2013-03-05 18:09:26 <gavinandresen> Did "we" turn on a dns seed for testnet in 0.8? I can't remember...
1188 2013-03-05 18:09:54 <gavinandresen> dnsseed=0 irc=0 is a good idea for testnet-in-a-box node. And remove peers.dat before starting.
1189 2013-03-05 18:10:18 <gavinandresen> (that is, datadir /testnet3/peers.dat )
1190 2013-03-05 18:11:01 <freewil> ah thanks gavinandresen
1191 2013-03-05 18:11:11 <freewil> yeah adding dnsseed=0 fixed it
1192 2013-03-05 18:12:21 <gavinandresen> I'll fix the testnet-in-a-box bitcoin.conf files
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1200 2013-03-05 18:21:26 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Yes, and both my testnet seeds have been getting a few hundred hits a day.
1201 2013-03-05 18:21:39 Grouver has quit (Client Quit)
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1203 2013-03-05 18:22:18 <petertodd> Surpising actually; there are usually only about 20 to 30 testnet nodes online.
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1205 2013-03-05 18:23:28 <sipa> i'm getting around 2.5 DNS requests per second now
1206 2013-03-05 18:23:59 <sipa> (mainnet, obviously)
1207 2013-03-05 18:24:22 free__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1208 2013-03-05 18:24:34 <petertodd> ...implies mainnet has ~400 times more node startups per day than testnet, which seems reasonable.
1209 2013-03-05 18:24:42 <petertodd> Probably undercounting too, due to DNS caching.
1210 2013-03-05 18:29:16 free__ has joined
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1212 2013-03-05 18:33:25 <sipa> actually, it's closer to 3.5
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1217 2013-03-05 18:34:16 <petertodd> sipa: that is kinda crazy though: so that's 302k nodes starting up per day, yet bitcoin only does 50k transactions per day
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1221 2013-03-05 18:35:02 <petertodd> basically if that's accurate most people run a node, yet do well under a tx per day, and that's just your seed too
1222 2013-03-05 18:35:14 Grouver has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it)
1223 2013-03-05 18:35:18 <gmaxwell> only takes one genus deciding to 'monitor bitcoin' by polling the seed to blow that figure up.
1224 2013-03-05 18:35:19 <petertodd> I wonder it's android wallets syncing on startup...
1225 2013-03-05 18:35:23 MiningBuddy has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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1227 2013-03-05 18:35:31 <gmaxwell> Though it makes senseâ I do less than a transaction per day.
1228 2013-03-05 18:35:31 <petertodd> *if it's
1229 2013-03-05 18:35:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: same here
1230 2013-03-05 18:35:50 Grouver has joined
1231 2013-03-05 18:36:36 <gwillen> petertodd: I almost never do a tx, but I started bitcoin-qt about 5 times yesterday
1232 2013-03-05 18:36:48 <gwillen> and I will probabl do it more with 0.8.0, since it doesn't lag the shit out of everything when I start or stop it ;-)
1233 2013-03-05 18:37:39 <sipa> petertodd: one client can result in 2 DNS queries (one NS and one A)
1234 2013-03-05 18:38:06 <grau> would it not make sense to try last used peers before going to DNS?
1235 2013-03-05 18:38:10 <petertodd> sipa: good point
1236 2013-03-05 18:38:30 <petertodd> grau: That's what Bitcoin does IIRC
1237 2013-03-05 18:38:57 <sipa> it always uses DNS, and the results are fed to the addr manager
1238 2013-03-05 18:39:05 <grau> I mean a single peer found could provide further seed without hitting the DNS
1239 2013-03-05 18:39:07 <sipa> and the addr manager is used to decide what to connect to
1240 2013-03-05 18:39:12 <gmaxwell> It happens in parallel, which hids the latency.
1241 2013-03-05 18:39:17 <gmaxwell> er hides*
1242 2013-03-05 18:39:26 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1243 2013-03-05 18:39:32 <petertodd> Ah, I'm corrected. Running DNS seeds is cheap, so that's probably pretty reasonable.
1244 2013-03-05 18:40:13 <sipa> my seed is currently serving from a set of over 4000 IPs
1245 2013-03-05 18:40:19 <BlueMatt> sipa: a dns query takes waaay more than 2 dns queries for 1 ns and 1 a
1246 2013-03-05 18:40:31 <BlueMatt> in the max, in the minimum, its 1 a
1247 2013-03-05 18:40:37 <sipa> BlueMatt: 2 DNS queries being _received_ by the seed :)
1248 2013-03-05 18:40:49 <BlueMatt> well, for some of them
1249 2013-03-05 18:40:57 <BlueMatt> mine+jgarzik's dont
1250 2013-03-05 18:41:03 <sipa> hmm?
1251 2013-03-05 18:41:09 <grau> I would offer to run a further DNS seed, but what is the process to get that into the code base?
1252 2013-03-05 18:41:09 <BlueMatt> both of ours are hosted
1253 2013-03-05 18:41:17 <sipa> BlueMatt: how is that relevant?
1254 2013-03-05 18:41:32 <petertodd> grau: Cool, basically, just start running it, and add it
1255 2013-03-05 18:41:42 <petertodd> grau: I'd suggest testnet myself, I'm the only one.
1256 2013-03-05 18:41:51 <BlueMatt> sipa: well the ns just hits the tld registry, then the next request (the a) gets as, not a ns response
1257 2013-03-05 18:42:06 <grau> where is the source?
1258 2013-03-05 18:42:24 <gmaxwell> grau: You write your own of course. Otherwise we have a DNS seed monoculture. :P
1259 2013-03-05 18:42:41 <grau> gmaxwell: point taken :)
1260 2013-03-05 18:42:44 <BlueMatt> (with the added requirement that you are a reasonably trusted person in the bitcoin community)
1261 2013-03-05 18:42:54 defunctzombie has joined
1262 2013-03-05 18:43:23 <petertodd> grau: https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin-seeder.git is my branch of sipas seeder, branch testnet has the testnet support
1263 2013-03-05 18:43:30 <defunctzombie> what are the /blocks and /database folders for 0.8
1264 2013-03-05 18:43:40 <defunctzombie> I only see documentation for /database on the wiki
1265 2013-03-05 18:43:41 <BlueMatt> blocks and the database
1266 2013-03-05 18:43:42 <gmaxwell> I don't know that we need more dns seeds right now though. Though I'm still sad we don't have a .nz seed.
1267 2013-03-05 18:43:49 <sipa> defunctzombie: see doc/files.txt
1268 2013-03-05 18:43:54 <defunctzombie> sipa: thank you
1269 2013-03-05 18:43:54 clav8 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1270 2013-03-05 18:43:55 bock has joined
1271 2013-03-05 18:43:56 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: why is .nz so special?
1272 2013-03-05 18:44:07 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1273 2013-03-05 18:44:13 <grau> ask kimdotcom to host one
1274 2013-03-05 18:44:15 <defunctzombie> sipa: If I am running 0.8, can I delete the blocks files?
1275 2013-03-05 18:44:32 <defunctzombie> only 0.8 has migrated all the stuff from 0.7?
1276 2013-03-05 18:44:33 <sipa> defunctzombie: you can delete blk*, but nothing inside blocks
1277 2013-03-05 18:44:35 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it's not so special, but it has held up to political pressure to dork with names.
1278 2013-03-05 18:44:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I could swing a .au seed...
1279 2013-03-05 18:44:47 <sipa> defunctzombie: it's hardlinked though, so it won't save you much disk space
1280 2013-03-05 18:45:10 <defunctzombie> sipa: gotcha
1281 2013-03-05 18:45:11 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea...well it would be nice to have more than 1 dnsseed which wasnt hosted/dependent on the us to begin with...
1282 2013-03-05 18:45:22 <sipa> defunctzombie: there's a contrib/tidy_datadit.sh script
1283 2013-03-05 18:45:29 <defunctzombie> sipa: what will that do?
1284 2013-03-05 18:45:38 <sipa> defunctzombie: tidy up your datadir :)
1285 2013-03-05 18:45:47 <sipa> (delete obsolete files)
1286 2013-03-05 18:45:59 <defunctzombie> sipa: cool
1287 2013-03-05 18:47:37 <petertodd> BlueMatt: I could easily do a .ca seed too, in a non-hosted physical datacenter
1288 2013-03-05 18:47:41 free__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1289 2013-03-05 18:47:57 <petertodd> though .ca might as well be .us...
1290 2013-03-05 18:50:24 <gavinandresen> are we running a dns seed on the devteam's server yet? It is in the netherlands....
1291 2013-03-05 18:50:32 <BlueMatt> dont think so
1292 2013-03-05 18:50:49 <BlueMatt> also, need a domain for it in some country that hates the us
1293 2013-03-05 18:50:51 <gavinandresen> somebody should do that (I don't know nuthin about dns seeding)
1294 2013-03-05 18:51:09 MiningBuddy has joined
1295 2013-03-05 18:51:19 <BlueMatt> does iran sell domain names?
1296 2013-03-05 18:51:33 chmod755 has joined
1297 2013-03-05 18:51:46 <wumpus> north korea maybe? :p
1298 2013-03-05 18:51:50 <gavinandresen> how about we pick a less controversial non-us-friendly country?
1299 2013-03-05 18:51:57 free__ has joined
1300 2013-03-05 18:52:01 <gavinandresen> Russia.
1301 2013-03-05 18:52:06 <BlueMatt> awww, fine
1302 2013-03-05 18:52:06 <sipa> gavinandresen: bluematt set up a vm for me to run a DNS server i think, but i haven't gotten around to it
1303 2013-03-05 18:52:17 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Iceland
1304 2013-03-05 18:52:25 <sipa> switzerland?
1305 2013-03-05 18:52:38 <BlueMatt> or maybe netherlands so that its spof
1306 2013-03-05 18:52:55 <gavinandresen> bhutan
1307 2013-03-05 18:53:00 <sipa> my dns seed is actually in .nl as well (though the dns is .be)
1308 2013-03-05 18:53:51 <BlueMatt> I wouldnt mind my .me, if it werent hosted in the us with slaves run by a us multinational...
1309 2013-03-05 18:54:41 <grau> Does .de help?
1310 2013-03-05 18:54:52 <gavinandresen> Antigua might be good: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/01/28/170466137/antigua-land-of-sun-sand-and-super-cheap-downloads?sc=tw&cc=share
1311 2013-03-05 18:55:01 <chmod755> what's the topic?
1312 2013-03-05 18:55:15 <BlueMatt> countries to host dnsseeds in
1313 2013-03-05 18:55:21 <chmod755> oh i see
1314 2013-03-05 18:55:46 <gmaxwell> it's not a super critical thing, but all equal its nice to have geopolitical diversity.
1315 2013-03-05 18:55:46 <sipa> are we talking about the physical locaion of the server, or the tld DNS it operates under?
1316 2013-03-05 18:55:52 <chmod755> Bolivia, Russia, India, New Zealand^
1317 2013-03-05 18:55:54 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1318 2013-03-05 18:56:13 <gavinandresen> sipa: TLD dns seems like the critical piece
1319 2013-03-05 18:56:32 <gmaxwell> thats why I'd suggested NZ simply because it sounds good on both geographic and TLD policy.
1320 2013-03-05 18:56:37 <grau> I have .hu too
1321 2013-03-05 18:56:39 <sipa> we could have an M*N setup, where you have for example us.seed.bitcoin.sipa.be and us.seed.bluematt.me and nl.seed.bitcoin.sipa.be and ...
1322 2013-03-05 18:56:42 <sipa> :p
1323 2013-03-05 18:57:20 <petertodd> sipa: just don't suggest satellites again...
1324 2013-03-05 18:57:30 <gavinandresen> Diversity is good, it'd be great to have one seed on every continent (except Antartica)
1325 2013-03-05 18:57:36 <chmod755> .aq (Antarctica!!!)
1326 2013-03-05 18:58:05 <wumpus> hehe
1327 2013-03-05 18:58:28 <gavinandresen> "It is reserved for organizations that conduct work in Antarctica or promote the Antarctic and Southern Ocean regions."
1328 2013-03-05 18:58:33 <chmod755> also: vatican city (afair it is .va)
1329 2013-03-05 18:58:36 <gavinandresen> Bitcoin: Official Currency of Antartica
1330 2013-03-05 18:58:54 <gavinandresen> that'd be way cool
1331 2013-03-05 18:58:55 <petertodd> You know with the turn-over rate for the most reliable nodes, it's probably reasonable to put a seed on Amazon Route 53 DNS, which is stupidly reliable, yet can still handle relatively frequent updates.
1332 2013-03-05 18:58:56 <chmod755> gavinandresen, the southern-most bank in the world is in antarctica
1333 2013-03-05 18:59:04 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: somehow I think you may need a better internet connection to do more bitcoin in Antarctica
1334 2013-03-05 18:59:07 paraipan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1335 2013-03-05 18:59:13 <BlueMatt> chmod755: know any cardinals who would hook us up with hosting?
1336 2013-03-05 18:59:20 <chmod755> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_southernmost_items#Shops_and_service_facilities
1337 2013-03-05 18:59:32 <petertodd> gavinandresen: With 1MiB blocks mining in Antarctica is feasible. <ducks>
1338 2013-03-05 18:59:42 <chmod755> lol BlueMatt
1339 2013-03-05 19:01:13 <gavinandresen> More DNS seeds isn't high on my priority list, but if somebody wants to make it their pet project, spiffy
1340 2013-03-05 19:01:34 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ack on that one
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1350 2013-03-05 19:26:03 <midnightmagic> woo antarctica!
1351 2013-03-05 19:26:25 <HM> Bitcoin secretly centralised in Antarctica
1352 2013-03-05 19:26:28 <HM> News at 11
1353 2013-03-05 19:29:05 <chmod755> lol
1354 2013-03-05 19:29:29 Mandrius has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1355 2013-03-05 19:31:22 <warren> Regarding dnsseeds, is anycast an option at all?
1356 2013-03-05 19:32:27 <Scrat> warren: sure if you use a hosted dns service, otherwise no, too costly
1357 2013-03-05 19:33:51 whizter has joined
1358 2013-03-05 19:33:55 <warren> IRC makes some net admins nervous due to its past association with botnets.</obvious>
1359 2013-03-05 19:34:03 <gmaxwell> It's easy to fall into a trap of spending far far too much time on this subject. But lets be clear: it's not important, it's not broken, even a supremely awesome ultimate optimal setup would be indistinguishable to users from what we have now.
1360 2013-03-05 19:34:11 <gmaxwell> warren: we don't use IRC.
1361 2013-03-05 19:34:21 <warren> oh? hm
1362 2013-03-05 19:34:34 <warren> did an earlier version?
1363 2013-03-05 19:34:42 <gmaxwell> Yes, two years ago.
1364 2013-03-05 19:34:45 <warren> ahhh
1365 2013-03-05 19:35:00 <gmaxwell> (the code is still there, but its disabled unless manually enabled)
1366 2013-03-05 19:36:07 <HM> DNS is acceptable because it's cacheable
1367 2013-03-05 19:37:17 <HM> it's what DNS was designed for after all
1368 2013-03-05 19:37:22 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: awww, but thats a boring answer...lets keep discussing ideal dnsseed systems
1369 2013-03-05 19:37:22 <gmaxwell> The IRC stuff was objectively bad: it was slow, and not scalable, and failed to get peers working neighbors (in part due to 'optimizations' added by the IRC server operators without any of us?? realizing it at the time), it had a single centeral point of failure, it was blocked multiple times on major networks (like.. all of verizon) because it was mistaken as a botnet, and it got users 'you have a botnet infection' letters (from AT&T).
1370 2013-03-05 19:37:51 <HM> that's hilarious
1371 2013-03-05 19:38:31 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1372 2013-03-05 19:38:49 <warren> AT&T mailed letters?
1373 2013-03-05 19:39:00 <gmaxwell> emailed. Yes.
1374 2013-03-05 19:39:09 <gmaxwell> to at least some commercial customers.
1375 2013-03-05 19:40:50 <gmaxwell> the irc server operators 'fixed' poor performance by only returning a constant subset of the users in the channel.. and because nodes without funtioning inbound hung out in the channels all the same that list would often end up filled with hosts that didn't accept inbound.
1376 2013-03-05 19:42:32 <warren> It became a social network
1377 2013-03-05 19:42:39 <warren> for bots
1378 2013-03-05 19:43:11 <HM> it's also a position of trust for the irc network operators
1379 2013-03-05 19:43:17 <HM> since they have access to a lot of node IPs
1380 2013-03-05 19:43:53 <petertodd> HM: the issue isn't knowing the node IPs, it's being able to only advertise the ones you want advertised.
1381 2013-03-05 19:44:01 <warren> HM: is that really an issue? with minimal effort it isn't too hard to harvest that list
1382 2013-03-05 19:44:29 <gmaxwell> warren: uh. how do you harvest a 'list' of non-listening nodes?
1383 2013-03-05 19:44:47 <HM> ask the nodes that they're connect to who is connected to them, but yeah
1384 2013-03-05 19:44:49 <warren> oh, good point
1385 2013-03-05 19:44:54 <gmaxwell> HM: they won't tell you that.
1386 2013-03-05 19:45:08 <gmaxwell> (for good reason, including this one)
1387 2013-03-05 19:47:00 <HM> exactly, so if you don't relay transactions it's pretty hard to harvest
1388 2013-03-05 19:47:14 <gmaxwell> HM: you can relay transactions without being harvestable.
1389 2013-03-05 19:47:46 <HM> how so?
1390 2013-03-05 19:47:50 <warren> gmaxwell: you won't show up in blockchain's tx first seen?
1391 2013-03-05 19:47:57 <HM> doesn't blockchain.info collect 'relayed by' IPs?
1392 2013-03-05 19:48:23 <HM> you can only do so via i2p or tor or some such thing
1393 2013-03-05 19:48:24 <warren> HM: it isn't really accurate, it's sometimes seen my actual IP
1394 2013-03-05 19:48:28 <gmaxwell> but as petertodd says, the bigger (of the minor concerns) is partitioning the network by filtering peers. Which is diminished by having multiple independant sources, which is harder to do for irc.
1395 2013-03-05 19:48:33 <gmaxwell> ...
1396 2013-03-05 19:48:45 <gmaxwell> HM: What do you think a "relayed by" IP is?
1397 2013-03-05 19:48:51 free__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1398 2013-03-05 19:49:09 <HM> the IP of the person who relayed the transaction
1399 2013-03-05 19:49:14 <HM> i.e. you if you relay the transaction
1400 2013-03-05 19:49:19 <gmaxwell> No.
1401 2013-03-05 19:49:21 <HM> ( as seen by blockchain.info )
1402 2013-03-05 19:49:40 <gmaxwell> B.I connects to a bunch of nodes. it reports the first node that it heard the transaction from.
1403 2013-03-05 19:49:55 <gmaxwell> If you don't accept inbound connections (from them) your IP will never show up there.
1404 2013-03-05 19:50:16 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1405 2013-03-05 19:50:18 <HM> what about outbound
1406 2013-03-05 19:50:25 <gmaxwell> What about it?
1407 2013-03-05 19:50:32 <HM> what if i happen to peer with blockchain.info
1408 2013-03-05 19:50:37 Luke-Jr has joined
1409 2013-03-05 19:51:30 <gmaxwell> I don't know if any of their collectors accept connections, the ones that connected to me didn't before. I've apparently never ended up connected to it.
1410 2013-03-05 19:52:08 <HM> anyway
1411 2013-03-05 19:52:27 paraipan has joined
1412 2013-03-05 19:52:30 <HM> this is irrelevant. it has been shown you can actually port scan the entire internet
1413 2013-03-05 19:52:37 <gmaxwell> ...
1414 2013-03-05 19:52:38 <HM> scan for port 8333 and you'll catch a LOT of nodes
1415 2013-03-05 19:52:44 <petertodd> HM: ipv6...
1416 2013-03-05 19:52:54 <gmaxwell> HOW THE FUCK DOES PORTSCANNING THE INTERNET FIND YOU HOSTS THAT DO NOT LISTEN? <cough>
1417 2013-03-05 19:53:36 <HM> true
1418 2013-03-05 19:53:43 setkeh has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1419 2013-03-05 19:53:49 <HM> but the defaults are to listen
1420 2013-03-05 19:53:53 auek has joined
1421 2013-03-05 19:53:56 <auek> Hi
1422 2013-03-05 19:53:59 <auek> hola
1423 2013-03-05 19:54:04 <auek> habla español alguien?
1424 2013-03-05 19:54:19 <warren> gmaxwell: I'm sorry I waded into this. I really didn't care about dnsseeds.
1425 2013-03-05 19:54:26 <HM> i believe the default is even to use upnp?
1426 2013-03-05 19:54:32 <gmaxwell> HM: yes, kinda though if you're firewalled off that does nothing. bitcoind doesn't upnp by default.
1427 2013-03-05 19:54:56 <HM> hmm k, i was thinking of the compile time default
1428 2013-03-05 19:55:16 <gmaxwell> HM: It includes it but its only on by default in the GUI.
1429 2013-03-05 19:56:07 <HM> right
1430 2013-03-05 19:57:42 <HM> incidentally an optimised TCP probe of the entire net (ipv4), on a specific port, is feasible within 12 hours.
1431 2013-03-05 19:59:16 daybyter has joined
1432 2013-03-05 19:59:40 Skav has joined
1433 2013-03-05 20:00:30 auek has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1434 2013-03-05 20:01:46 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1435 2013-03-05 20:02:33 MobPhone has joined
1436 2013-03-05 20:03:18 freakazoid_ has joined
1437 2013-03-05 20:04:38 <HM> gmaxwell: have there been any attempts to DDoS the network at large to date?
1438 2013-03-05 20:05:25 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1439 2013-03-05 20:05:36 Skav has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1440 2013-03-05 20:05:41 <gmaxwell> yes, though not any successful ones that I'm aware of, though the addr flooding attack that was used on ltc was turned on bitcoin at some point. Obviously people haven't tried too hard.
1441 2013-03-05 20:05:44 bitfoo has quit (Quit: foo)
1442 2013-03-05 20:06:03 tyn has joined
1443 2013-03-05 20:07:26 <muhoo> TD: thanks for that commit that stopped the ping flood
1444 2013-03-05 20:07:56 <muhoo> TD: i notice now instead of 3 or 4 java system processes, the server now runs in 1 java process.
1445 2013-03-05 20:09:12 <warren> HM: It seems the alt coins and mining pools are particularly vulnerable to DDoS attack because they have a small number of easy to identify addresses. Bitcoin as a whole is far more resilient to that.
1446 2013-03-05 20:10:08 <HM> perhaps, i still think the network layer will become a more favourable target in the future
1447 2013-03-05 20:10:15 gritcoin has joined
1448 2013-03-05 20:10:16 coolsa has joined
1449 2013-03-05 20:10:17 <Luke-Jr> warren: why do you assume a large number of easy to identify addresses is more resilient?
1450 2013-03-05 20:10:24 <HM> especially if you have a higher percentage of SPV nodes
1451 2013-03-05 20:10:37 <gmaxwell> warren: the only attacks I've seen on things are generic ones that didn't depend on flooding off hosts.
1452 2013-03-05 20:10:44 <gmaxwell> er non-generic ones.
1453 2013-03-05 20:10:55 <gmaxwell> e.g. the addr flooding attack ran litecoin nodes out of disk space.
1454 2013-03-05 20:11:20 <warren> bitcoin is not vulnerable to that?
1455 2013-03-05 20:13:19 Skav has joined
1456 2013-03-05 20:13:29 <HM> I'm waiting for the first ISP to block the bitcoin protocol
1457 2013-03-05 20:13:31 <gmaxwell> It isn't now, we fixed it.
1458 2013-03-05 20:14:02 <gmaxwell> We fixed it in advance but hadn't released with a fix when litecoin was attacked... litcoin merged our fix.
1459 2013-03-05 20:14:21 <rdponticelli1> Re DNS seeds: I'll do my best to host one on Argentina at some point...
1460 2013-03-05 20:14:33 <warren> I'm scared by the quality of code checkins in their git
1461 2013-03-05 20:15:50 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1462 2013-03-05 20:16:11 <muhoo> whose git?
1463 2013-03-05 20:16:19 <warren> litecoin
1464 2013-03-05 20:16:26 <petertodd> warren: I don't know of a single alt-coin that has something like BlueMatt's bitcoin tester.
1465 2013-03-05 20:16:41 <petertodd> warren: Many don't even have working unit tests.
1466 2013-03-05 20:17:32 <rdponticelli1> Yeah, altcoin's processes are lame :S
1467 2013-03-05 20:17:53 <warren> litecoin needs to dump their code and rebase all their patches against upstream.
1468 2013-03-05 20:18:31 <rdponticelli1> They should host a repository of patches against BTC, IMHO
1469 2013-03-05 20:18:34 MobPhone has joined
1470 2013-03-05 20:18:39 <warren> rdponticelli1: yeah
1471 2013-03-05 20:18:49 <gmaxwell> petertodd: most are not actively developed at all.
1472 2013-03-05 20:18:58 <warren> litecoin has no release for 7 months
1473 2013-03-05 20:18:58 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1474 2013-03-05 20:19:24 <HM> i kind of like the idea of memory hardness in litecoin
1475 2013-03-05 20:19:34 copumpkin has joined
1476 2013-03-05 20:19:54 CaptainBlaze has joined
1477 2013-03-05 20:20:10 <gmaxwell> HM: makes validation expensive too, which is undesirable in the extreme.
1478 2013-03-05 20:20:15 <petertodd> I was playing around with namecoin, and quickly realized that it's RPC and dev environment is so lacking, there just isn't any way it has been well tested - without raw transactions, people aren't experimenting on testnet and finding problems.
1479 2013-03-05 20:21:01 Skav has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1480 2013-03-05 20:21:04 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, I always kept namecoin daemons on seperate boxes and isolated. I just assumed there were exploits in the additions.
1481 2013-03-05 20:21:05 <warren> have all the altcoins forked from bitcoin at some point then languished?
1482 2013-03-05 20:21:31 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I use VM's myself, but same idea.
1483 2013-03-05 20:21:39 <petertodd> warren: Exactly
1484 2013-03-05 20:22:20 <warren> petertodd: I gave litecoind its own selinux context and VM
1485 2013-03-05 20:22:24 <petertodd> warren: Backporting it hard - I tried porting the raw transaction API to namecoin on a lark, and gave up after a few hours as I found more and more things missing...
1486 2013-03-05 20:22:40 <HM> there will be more forks once bitcoin is closer to perfection and more of the hard dev work is done
1487 2013-03-05 20:23:07 <gmaxwell> warren: yes. most hardly change anythign at all in any case.
1488 2013-03-05 20:23:08 <muhoo> heh, perfection is a moving target
1489 2013-03-05 20:23:57 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Granted, the fact that maintaining forks is already hard, doesn't help.
1490 2013-03-05 20:23:59 root2 has joined
1491 2013-03-05 20:24:13 <gmaxwell> But with GIT forks are easy!@#!#@!@
1492 2013-03-05 20:26:15 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1493 2013-03-05 20:26:26 root2_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1494 2013-03-05 20:27:47 <petertodd> gmaxwell: *easier*
1495 2013-03-05 20:28:36 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Fundementally you have to be a reasonably good maintainer to understand how to make big changes, while keeping up with upstream. Namecoin did an ok job with this by factoring out most everything into a namecoin class, but they obviously didn't keep up with the work.
1496 2013-03-05 20:29:13 <warren> namecoin
1497 2013-03-05 20:29:22 <warren> 's goal was to solve a problem that nobody cares about.
1498 2013-03-05 20:29:35 <petertodd> warren: That too...
1499 2013-03-05 20:30:15 <HM> arguably nobody cares about replacing currency either
1500 2013-03-05 20:30:17 <petertodd> Although I'd argue, part of that failure is a failure to make it a problem people care about; namecoin could have been a success had they worked on making it useful in a wide range of contexts, but they didn't.
1501 2013-03-05 20:30:23 <HM> *other currency
1502 2013-03-05 20:31:13 <gmaxwell> warren: I think a lot of people care about the problem namecoin addresses, just not enough to make namecoin a continued success.
1503 2013-03-05 20:31:14 <warren> litecoin's goal was to solve a problem that even fewer people care about, which makes me really wonder how it more than doubled in value yesterday. Somehow the GPU miners having abandoned BTC are now obtaining litecoins and causing speculation in that market.
1504 2013-03-05 20:31:40 <gmaxwell> warren: moreover, I think the whole currency aspect of namecoin created an enormous distraction which detracted from that goal.
1505 2013-03-05 20:31:56 <jgarzik> dare them to reboot namecoin
1506 2013-03-05 20:31:59 <warren> gmaxwell: aside from the security and decentralization goal, alt DNS hasn't gone anywhere in the decade prior
1507 2013-03-05 20:32:20 <gmaxwell> warren: aside from the stuff that makes it interesting, this thing is not interesting.
1508 2013-03-05 20:32:23 <HM> something better than DNS is hugely important
1509 2013-03-05 20:32:46 dhill has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1510 2013-03-05 20:32:49 <warren> jgarzik: what would they do better?
1511 2013-03-05 20:33:00 <jgarzik> could dump the spam
1512 2013-03-05 20:33:11 <HM> the things registrars are getting up to these days is disturbing
1513 2013-03-05 20:33:12 <jgarzik> namecoin went through a period where people dumped a lot of crap into the database
1514 2013-03-05 20:33:14 <petertodd> warren: You could tie namecoin to bitcoin more directly, so purchasing names was denominated in bitcoins for instance.
1515 2013-03-05 20:33:33 <gmaxwell> Abusive of the centeral control of DNS is a big issueâ it ebbs and flows in people's concern about the urgency of the issue, but keep in mind that namecoin was release when concern about illegitimate DHS domain seizures were at a local peak.
1516 2013-03-05 20:33:40 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: namecoin could have sold me on self-signed certs ;)
1517 2013-03-05 20:33:42 <jgarzik> Though in general, a decentralized DNS-like service will suffer from the same problems as the current DNS system: people will try to aggressively grab names
1518 2013-03-05 20:33:43 <petertodd> warren: I talked to a guy who had put $5k into namecoin - insane.
1519 2013-03-05 20:33:49 <jgarzik> and that poorly intersects with trademarks
1520 2013-03-05 20:34:22 <HM> i think you need a way to return names that are 'unused' quickly to the system
1521 2013-03-05 20:34:22 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that is, by including cert hashes in the blockchain, CAs become unnecessary
1522 2013-03-05 20:34:23 <jgarzik> A remotely successful namecoin will be hit with DDoS-like behavior from DNS providers, just like current DNS system
1523 2013-03-05 20:34:24 <petertodd> jgarzik: Well, namecoin is only ever going to work really on non-mainstream nets.
1524 2013-03-05 20:34:47 <petertodd> HM: define 'unused'
1525 2013-03-05 20:34:48 <jgarzik> HM: define "unused"
1526 2013-03-05 20:34:49 <midnightmagic> HM: they already are. 36000 blocks is a very short time.
1527 2013-03-05 20:34:50 <jgarzik> heh
1528 2013-03-05 20:34:52 <warren> petertodd: what methods could you use to tie it more directly to bitcoin without spamming the main blockchain?
1529 2013-03-05 20:35:00 <HM> that's why i put 'unused' in quotes
1530 2013-03-05 20:35:08 <gmaxwell> warren: what value would that have??
1531 2013-03-05 20:35:10 <HM> it's a tricky problem
1532 2013-03-05 20:35:18 <midnightmagic> HM: The real issue is that it's cheap to register *new* names: far, far too cheap right now.
1533 2013-03-05 20:35:36 <warren> gmaxwell: I don't know, I was responding to him.
1534 2013-03-05 20:35:57 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: you can generalize that to "cheap to create perpetual storage obligations"
1535 2013-03-05 20:36:01 daybyter has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1536 2013-03-05 20:36:11 daybyter has joined
1537 2013-03-05 20:36:13 <HM> are they perpetual? namecoin names expire don't they?
1538 2013-03-05 20:36:40 <gmaxwell> HM: but the blockchain doesn't, and it still has just a copy of the bitcoin security model where nodes validate the historic chain.
1539 2013-03-05 20:36:41 <midnightmagic> HM: They do expire. But the name data itself hangs around in old blocks forever. there is no pruning.
1540 2013-03-05 20:36:47 Hashdog has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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1542 2013-03-05 20:36:55 knotwork has quit (Changing host)
1543 2013-03-05 20:36:55 knotwork has joined
1544 2013-03-05 20:36:58 <HM> right, but that's fixable
1545 2013-03-05 20:37:06 <midnightmagic> HM: It is.
1546 2013-03-05 20:37:08 <gmaxwell> HM: fixing the security model is a hardfork.
1547 2013-03-05 20:37:08 <warren> gmaxwell: our own miners create a negative externality by creating perpetual storage obligations for everyone else
1548 2013-03-05 20:37:14 <gmaxwell> warren: indeed.
1549 2013-03-05 20:37:32 <gmaxwell> warren: its bounded in the system and hopefully small relative to the value bitcoin provides.
1550 2013-03-05 20:37:39 <HM> i think namecoin can afford a hardfork, but they should have done things right from the beginning. it struck me as a bit of a weak bitcoin fork with arbitrary records hammered in
1551 2013-03-05 20:37:52 <gmaxwell> warren: for namecoin that would be true tooâ if not for the fact that no one uses namecoin.
1552 2013-03-05 20:37:59 <midnightmagic> HM: It will require first that pools drop it, and then a hardfork is a possibility.
1553 2013-03-05 20:38:10 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Some people use it. :)
1554 2013-03-05 20:38:11 <gmaxwell> HM: hey, they did more work than your forks of bitcoin. :P
1555 2013-03-05 20:38:23 <whizter> are there some methods to reduce risk of double spending attacks while accepting 0-conf transactions in a local retail store?
1556 2013-03-05 20:38:46 <petertodd> I'd suggest that anyone contemplating a fork of namecoin, first work on creating usable tools for a variety of name-related purposes, not just dns, and try to get an understanding of what namecoin is even supposed to provide in the first place.
1557 2013-03-05 20:38:53 <gmaxwell> whizter: copy people's ID and then don't worry about technical mumbojumbo
1558 2013-03-05 20:38:59 skeledrew1 has joined
1559 2013-03-05 20:39:00 ovidiusoft has joined
1560 2013-03-05 20:39:33 <whizter> gmaxwell, are there some other methods, something like "run x connected bitcoind on y virtual machines" or something like that?
1561 2013-03-05 20:39:42 <gmaxwell> whizter: that doesn't help.
1562 2013-03-05 20:39:44 <whizter> oh ok
1563 2013-03-05 20:39:45 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1564 2013-03-05 20:39:47 <gmaxwell> At least not today.
1565 2013-03-05 20:39:54 <midnightmagic> petertodd: Those things already exist. The I2P people are (were) actively looking to use it, people are storing personal contact details in it, and a variety of smaller, pointless data is also embryonically in there..
1566 2013-03-05 20:40:14 <gmaxwell> whizter: conflicting transactions are not relayed, and even if they were conflicts can appear for the first time in a block.
1567 2013-03-05 20:40:31 <petertodd> midnightmagic: Yes, lots of plans, but unless I'm mistaken that never really got to the point of even prototypes.
1568 2013-03-05 20:41:01 <midnightmagic> petertodd: I haven't looked in in a while. It's possible the ongoing storage attack scared them away
1569 2013-03-05 20:41:23 <gmaxwell> lack of SPV resolvers makes the storage attacks doubly scarry.
1570 2013-03-05 20:41:24 paraipan has joined
1571 2013-03-05 20:41:33 <HM> whizter: perhaps you could implement a "store card"
1572 2013-03-05 20:41:53 <HM> and accept transactions based on reputation, credit limit and any deposits
1573 2013-03-05 20:41:56 <gmaxwell> something like i2p could afford a small number of database servers in the network.. if they could have cheap SPV proofs.
1574 2013-03-05 20:42:30 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1575 2013-03-05 20:42:40 <HM> i2p names aren't registered are they?
1576 2013-03-05 20:42:56 <HM> it's all personal address book stuff, with a few services acting as directories
1577 2013-03-05 20:42:57 <gmaxwell> I wonder if it's possible to conduct a second price sealed auction of fees in a blockchain.
1578 2013-03-05 20:42:57 <midnightmagic> HM: Lemme check, I think they are.
1579 2013-03-05 20:43:00 <whizter> HM, I know what you mean, but that would be too much effort I think. Is it somehow possible to immediately detect double-spending attempts in the network?
1580 2013-03-05 20:43:06 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1581 2013-03-05 20:43:08 <gmaxwell> (and possible to do so efficiently)
1582 2013-03-05 20:43:09 d4de has joined
1583 2013-03-05 20:43:39 <muhoo> whizter: wait for confirmations?
1584 2013-03-05 20:43:49 tg has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1585 2013-03-05 20:43:52 <HM> whizter: if you're connected to enough nodes you stand a chance of detecting a double spend, but the way it is transactions can sometimes lanquish
1586 2013-03-05 20:44:06 owowo has joined
1587 2013-03-05 20:44:21 <warren> whizter: read the forum threads about the double spending attack that hit the gambling sites hard
1588 2013-03-05 20:44:54 <midnightmagic> HM: There are a pile of reserved names clearly intended to be either vanity i2p domains or tld-like entries.
1589 2013-03-05 20:45:04 <whizter> warren, I'll do that, perhaps I'll get a better technical understanding then :)
1590 2013-03-05 20:45:15 <gmaxwell> HM: I don't know why you're saying "connected to enough nodes you stand a chance of detecting a double spend" ... I'm not aware of any attack which has ever been prevented by someone that way.
1591 2013-03-05 20:45:35 grau has joined
1592 2013-03-05 20:45:53 <midnightmagic> HM: I see no actual i2p direct names, but a pile of i2p additional records.
1593 2013-03-05 20:46:10 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, do you remember what you were talking about yesterday, ie proving solvency?
1594 2013-03-05 20:46:22 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: sure.
1595 2013-03-05 20:46:32 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you interested in doing that?
1596 2013-03-05 20:46:41 <phantomcircuit> yes for now just for a silly test platform
1597 2013-03-05 20:46:45 <HM> midnightmagic: i2p has an impressive software package. i've wondered why Tor gets all the limelight really
1598 2013-03-05 20:46:58 <phantomcircuit> it was originally designed to be a webwallet that accelerates transfers to/from mtgox
1599 2013-03-05 20:47:38 <HM> i think Tor just has renowned developers
1600 2013-03-05 20:47:51 <phantomcircuit> HM, they were there first
1601 2013-03-05 20:47:52 <chmod755> HM, make a blackmarket for i2p and more people will use it
1602 2013-03-05 20:47:58 <petertodd> midnightmagic: People were trying to do tld's on namecoin? sheesh...
1603 2013-03-05 20:48:00 <phantomcircuit> i2p has a much better design i think
1604 2013-03-05 20:48:18 <phantomcircuit> i haven't studied it intensively but that was my general feeling when i took a brief look
1605 2013-03-05 20:48:26 <chmod755> i don't like the part about 'exits' in tor
1606 2013-03-05 20:48:36 <HM> it certainly seems more flexible, more tunables for privacy vs performance for one thing
1607 2013-03-05 20:49:08 <HM> chmod755: i2p has exit nodes as well, but they're application specific rather than generic tcp endpoints
1608 2013-03-05 20:49:46 nowan has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1609 2013-03-05 20:49:47 <warren> whizter: if I understand the forum thread, Satoshi Dice sends a tx containing the results of an incoming bet with 0-conf, but that tx uses an input from the incoming bet. In that way SD itself isn't vulnerable to an orphan. What someone did was to make a long chain of 0-conf tx's repeatedly through SD, then to one of the other gambling sites that did 0-conf in a dumb way.
1610 2013-03-05 20:50:04 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1611 2013-03-05 20:50:16 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
1612 2013-03-05 20:50:36 justmoon has joined
1613 2013-03-05 20:50:50 <muhoo> tor lets you access the existing, non-dark internet. not sure if i2p does that.
1614 2013-03-05 20:51:33 nowan has joined
1615 2013-03-05 20:51:44 <HM> it does, but someone has to setup a proxy that you connect to explicitly
1616 2013-03-05 20:51:58 <chmod755> HM^
1617 2013-03-05 20:52:02 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1618 2013-03-05 20:52:11 <muhoo> exit node, yes. but that doesn't require the content provider to change their server or support tor
1619 2013-03-05 20:52:18 <gmaxwell> warren: the 'include your payment in the response' is still vulnerable to theft. SD just externalizes the theft onto other betters.
1620 2013-03-05 20:53:02 <HM> muhoo: no, but they're 2 different goals. anonymous access to clearnet and hidden services are both valuable use cases
1621 2013-03-05 20:53:04 <warren> ahhh, as they combine transactions to reduce their fees
1622 2013-03-05 20:53:13 <chmod755> someone could provide a proxy for i2p and tunnel the traffic via tor lol
1623 2013-03-05 20:53:32 <muhoo> HM: right, but someone was asking why tor is more popular than i2p. my answer was, "content", basically
1624 2013-03-05 20:53:41 <whizter> could the 10 minutes/confirmation theoretically be adjusted to 1 minute?
1625 2013-03-05 20:53:57 <HM> muhoo: i'm not actually aware of any tor sites except silk road lol
1626 2013-03-05 20:54:04 <chmod755> whizter, no!
1627 2013-03-05 20:54:06 <warren> whizter: yes. Add 10x the hash rate every 2 weeks.
1628 2013-03-05 20:54:14 <chmod755> lmao
1629 2013-03-05 20:54:44 <gmaxwell> i2p also is in the freenet software the requires java ghetto.
1630 2013-03-05 20:54:51 <whizter> sorry if I'm just asking dumb things :)
1631 2013-03-05 20:55:02 <muhoo> HM: wow, i'm not speaking right today. i mean tor lets you access the entire internet. hence it has access to all that clearnet content. i don't know if i2p does, but if it doesn't, that'd explain why it's not as widely used
1632 2013-03-05 20:55:08 monkeynipples has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1633 2013-03-05 20:55:34 <HM> muhoo: it does because there are well known web proxies running on i2p
1634 2013-03-05 20:55:44 appamatto has joined
1635 2013-03-05 20:55:52 <HM> but it doesn't let you establish arbitrary tcp connections through the network, afaik
1636 2013-03-05 20:55:55 <HM> i could be wrong
1637 2013-03-05 20:55:56 <appamatto> Is there a bitcoin reaction to Ripple?
1638 2013-03-05 20:56:15 <warren> yawn
1639 2013-03-05 20:56:28 <chmod755> http://www.i2p2.de/bounties.html << 118.34
1640 2013-03-05 20:56:44 <chmod755> Bitcoin client for I2P... bounty 118.34 BTC
1641 2013-03-05 20:56:46 <whizter> once i installed i2p, extremely slow (slower than tor), lots of dead links, etc. There was another similar project called freenet, dunno if that's still in existence
1642 2013-03-05 20:57:06 <warren> I thought freenet was about storage
1643 2013-03-05 20:57:10 <chmod755> whizter, i think it is
1644 2013-03-05 20:57:11 <whizter> maybe
1645 2013-03-05 20:57:47 <petertodd> whizter: Freenet is still around
1646 2013-03-05 20:58:02 <petertodd> whizter: Development work isn't going very fast though
1647 2013-03-05 20:58:09 <chmod755> ;;seen freenet
1648 2013-03-05 20:58:09 <gribble> I have not seen freenet.
1649 2013-03-05 20:58:13 monkeynipples has joined
1650 2013-03-05 20:58:17 <whizter> have to check it out, I tested it once years ago
1651 2013-03-05 20:58:20 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
1652 2013-03-05 20:58:42 <muhoo> i remember playing with it 10 years ago or so
1653 2013-03-05 20:58:53 <chmod755> whizter, gribble has never seen it so it's not worth trying it
1654 2013-03-05 20:58:58 <whizter> hehe
1655 2013-03-05 20:59:18 <warren> Mega seems to have supplanted the purposes of freenet?
1656 2013-03-05 20:59:28 <HM> lol no
1657 2013-03-05 20:59:41 <HM> anyone who trusts mega just because they do a bit of pubkey crypto is in for pain
1658 2013-03-05 20:59:47 <chmod755> ^
1659 2013-03-05 20:59:53 <HM> just do your own crypto and go where the storage and bandwidth is cheap
1660 2013-03-05 21:00:00 <HM> if that's Mega, great
1661 2013-03-05 21:01:29 <midnightmagic> petertodd: Well the idea was that someone would sponsor a TLD for .bit and then farm out the DNS to servers set up to resolve them, but.. then someone found out how much that would cost and that went nowhere fast.
1662 2013-03-05 21:02:35 <midnightmagic> muhoo: The answer as to why i2p isn't as popular as Tor is that there aren't as many academics working on i2p finding flaws and problems, and that i2p isn't really meant as an outproxy mixer. It's primarily internal to itself.
1663 2013-03-05 21:03:01 <midnightmagic> muhoo: There are i2p outproxies that exist, but .. meh.
1664 2013-03-05 21:03:18 <HM> the nature of TLDs seems to be trashed these days
1665 2013-03-05 21:04:07 <jgarzik> TLD market is an excellent example of why -not- to raise the block size ;p
1666 2013-03-05 21:04:07 whizter has quit ()
1667 2013-03-05 21:04:21 <HM> jgarzik: lol, explain?
1668 2013-03-05 21:04:26 <midnightmagic> HM: also trashy.
1669 2013-03-05 21:05:26 <midnightmagic> The i2p devs are wayyyyy more secretive too.
1670 2013-03-05 21:06:04 <HM> midnightmagic: I bet Appelbaum wishes he'd made the decision to be secretive
1671 2013-03-05 21:06:26 <HM> well, at least on some level
1672 2013-03-05 21:06:50 <HM> but then, you can't really be an advocate if you're secretive
1673 2013-03-05 21:07:08 <warren> jgarzik: the expectation is for miners to exclude lower fee tx's to remain under the block size limit forever?
1674 2013-03-05 21:08:46 <jgarzik> warren: The more general point is that competition for block size space drives up fees. You can keep raising the block size, to prevent that situation, and artificially keep fees low.
1675 2013-03-05 21:09:10 grau has joined
1676 2013-03-05 21:09:14 <jgarzik> warren: it's an economic balance. I cannot predict the future of what people will choose :)
1677 2013-03-05 21:09:53 <HM> my general thesis is people will pick traditional payments over bitcoin if fees rise
1678 2013-03-05 21:10:06 <HM> i keep using the word thesis, i've been reading too many papers
1679 2013-03-05 21:10:11 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1680 2013-03-05 21:10:11 <HM> -_-
1681 2013-03-05 21:14:02 <HM> I don't have much faith in most people valuing decentralised, pseudo-anonymous currency when faced with expense
1682 2013-03-05 21:14:29 tg has joined
1683 2013-03-05 21:14:34 testnode9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1684 2013-03-05 21:14:40 <gmaxwell> HM: false choice.
1685 2013-03-05 21:14:57 <HM> between what?
1686 2013-03-05 21:15:10 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: tor has worked hard on outreach to pull in academics
1687 2013-03-05 21:16:15 rdymac has joined
1688 2013-03-05 21:16:23 <HM> i think the financial backers are also important
1689 2013-03-05 21:17:47 CaptainBlaze has joined
1690 2013-03-05 21:18:13 <HM> i think everyone should investigate who finances Tor sometime
1691 2013-03-05 21:19:30 <gmaxwell> HM: it's not a secret.
1692 2013-03-05 21:19:47 <gmaxwell> https://www.torproject.org/about/sponsors.html.en
1693 2013-03-05 21:20:15 <petertodd> warren: Keep in mind, at the extreme end of cheap transactions you can do things like put certain popular songs in the blockchain...
1694 2013-03-05 21:20:27 <gmaxwell> one of the critial things about an anonymity network is that its no good if it only has one kind of user.
1695 2013-03-05 21:20:42 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1696 2013-03-05 21:20:45 <gmaxwell> warren: do you have a testnet3 node?
1697 2013-03-05 21:21:01 <warren> gmaxwell: why? I can make one if you want
1698 2013-03-05 21:21:04 <petertodd> warren: On the other hand, if 1MiB blocks do stay, I estimated we'll have transactins costing about $20 each if Bitcoin has a trillions range market cap.
1699 2013-03-05 21:21:22 <gmaxwell> warren: you should, it's fun. and then run this: (./bitcoind getrawtransaction 73e64e38faea386c88a578fd1919bcdba3d0b3af7b6302bf6ee1b423dc4e4333 ; ./bitcoind getrawtransaction d85af546147ff78dfb06e9469ddfc84adc3ce00cda54db8d65b7617ff2b7661a) | xxd -r -p | play -tul -
1700 2013-03-05 21:21:23 <warren> huh, we have 1MB blocks now?
1701 2013-03-05 21:21:26 <petertodd> warren: Trust me, this is worth it.
1702 2013-03-05 21:21:37 <petertodd> warren: Yes, that's the hard protocol limit.
1703 2013-03-05 21:21:55 <warren> I began reading the 512KB limit thread and fell asleep I guess.
1704 2013-03-05 21:22:32 <HM> gmaxwell: it's still ironic. the BBG is an independent arm of the US government. the same government that has had Appelbaum on the no-fly list and harassed him and his family through other agencies
1705 2013-03-05 21:23:15 <gmaxwell> HM: it's not ironic. ... and besides, the US governement is far from monolithic. Tor is widely used by government agencies.
1706 2013-03-05 21:23:52 <petertodd> warren: https://blockexplorer.com/testnet/block/0000000010bf4453b170a6756d911e207734ae181af6c8c02b42787d5885b333 <- a 1MB block on testnet
1707 2013-03-05 21:24:02 <petertodd> (sorry, 1MiB isn't correct, it's 1MB)
1708 2013-03-05 21:25:07 BTCTrader2 has joined
1709 2013-03-05 21:25:17 <HM> gmaxwell: Exactly. they want their cake, and eat it too
1710 2013-03-05 21:25:36 <warren> "Sent: Strange"
1711 2013-03-05 21:25:44 <petertodd> HM: "They" are not one. gmaxwell is correct: the US government is not a monolith.
1712 2013-03-05 21:26:05 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1713 2013-03-05 21:26:42 <petertodd> warren: That just means it's not a standard transaction scriptPubKey; that transaction had the scriptPubKey filled with 0xff bytes
1714 2013-03-05 21:26:48 fpgaminer has quit ()
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1716 2013-03-05 21:26:55 <HM> Operational independence doesn't mean they can't be coherent
1717 2013-03-05 21:27:04 * warren adding a new selinux context for testnet
1718 2013-03-05 21:27:24 <HM> and it doesn't excuse it either
1719 2013-03-05 21:27:28 <gmaxwell> Why should they be? besides, they're not giving Jake crap over tor. (not that giving him crap over anything is justified)
1720 2013-03-05 21:27:54 <petertodd> If anything, Tor shows how if you engage with the government in the right way *you* can have your cake and eat it too.
1721 2013-03-05 21:28:02 <gmaxwell> Exactly.
1722 2013-03-05 21:28:37 <HM> Then perhaps someone should find a nice US agency to sponsor Bitcoin :P
1723 2013-03-05 21:29:27 Grouver has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Organize your IRC)
1724 2013-03-05 21:29:34 <warren> hm, why does -testnet want ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf instead of ~/.bitcoin/testnet/bitcoin.conf?
1725 2013-03-05 21:29:38 <warren> shouldn't it be separate?
1726 2013-03-05 21:29:52 <gavinandresen> warren: yeah. Ask Satoshi.
1727 2013-03-05 21:30:07 <petertodd> HM: They don't have to; Bitcoin is already happening just fine.
1728 2013-03-05 21:30:21 <warren> gavinandresen: Sure, next time I see him.
1729 2013-03-05 21:30:51 <gavinandresen> ⦠let me know his reasoning, he didn't tell me when he changed it in my initial testnet patch....
1730 2013-03-05 21:30:54 <gmaxwell> warren: how else will you get your testnet parameter out of the conf? :P
1731 2013-03-05 21:32:19 <warren> Let's have a testnet3 exchange to give the GPU miners something to do.
1732 2013-03-05 21:32:21 <HM> petertodd: you could say I2P is 'already happening just fine' as well.
1733 2013-03-05 21:33:18 <petertodd> Actual -dev question: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Discouraged_block <- I looked, and I don't think we've ever had a "ShouldDiscourage()" function; can I nuke this wiki page?
1734 2013-03-05 21:33:30 dvide has joined
1735 2013-03-05 21:33:50 <petertodd> We also don't have that behavior...
1736 2013-03-05 21:34:02 <gavinandresen> petertodd: ok with me.
1737 2013-03-05 21:37:12 <petertodd> Cleared for now, I'll add some content about the idea itself later.
1738 2013-03-05 21:37:21 <yebyen> if i have my testnet-in-a-box all started and "connections" : 1, does that mean the nodes are not talking to each other?
1739 2013-03-05 21:38:04 <gavinandresen> yebyen: if it is a two-node testnet-in-a-box, then each has 1 connection (to the other)
1740 2013-03-05 21:38:13 <yebyen> that's what i thought...
1741 2013-03-05 21:38:19 <gavinandresen> if they're not talking to each other, it is connections 0
1742 2013-03-05 21:38:29 <yebyen> netstat seemed to indicate they were connected too
1743 2013-03-05 21:39:00 <yebyen> i'm using 0.7.2... i applied the meat of the patch (I think correctly) to disable checkpoints, and cleared my blockchains
1744 2013-03-05 21:39:12 <yebyen> so why else might they sit at idle when setgenerate=true
1745 2013-03-05 21:39:28 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
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1747 2013-03-05 21:43:01 <gavinandresen> I think Luke-Jr reported a bug in the "are we in initial block download phase" code that prevents bootstrapping a new chain....
1748 2013-03-05 21:43:25 <yebyen> oh
1749 2013-03-05 21:43:59 <gavinandresen> quick fix would probably be to make IsInitialDownload (or whatever the method is called) always return false
1750 2013-03-05 21:44:09 <warren> argh, i downloaded those getrawtransaction's on a remote headless server, then looked at the | play
1751 2013-03-05 21:44:17 dlb76 has joined
1752 2013-03-05 21:44:39 <gmaxwell> > file.ul ... scp
1753 2013-03-05 21:44:41 <petertodd> warren: selinux context prevented you?
1754 2013-03-05 21:45:06 <warren> just wondering if downloading this is worthwhile
1755 2013-03-05 21:45:31 <petertodd> it won't let you down
1756 2013-03-05 21:46:04 <yebyen> gavinandresen: thanks very helpful
1757 2013-03-05 21:46:17 nowan_ has joined
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1759 2013-03-05 21:47:04 <gavinandresen> FYI to nobody in particular: I just updated the testnet-in-a-box bitcoin.conf's to set dnsseed=0, and removed the now-obsolete detachdb=1
1760 2013-03-05 21:48:36 <yebyen> is that all that changed? thanks
1761 2013-03-05 21:48:45 chmod755 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1762 2013-03-05 21:48:47 <warren> gmaxwell: how does one enforce a copyright takedown of something stored in the blockchain?
1763 2013-03-05 21:49:25 <gavinandresen> warren: step 1: send email to Satoshi...
1764 2013-03-05 21:49:43 <HM> just publish the DCMA takedown to the blockchain :P
1765 2013-03-05 21:50:00 <HM> one addressed to every node
1766 2013-03-05 21:50:16 zrad has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1767 2013-03-05 21:50:27 <petertodd> warren: Now you know why we have IsStandard()...
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1770 2013-03-05 21:54:49 <petertodd> warren: Incidentally, for a serious answer, in many cases you can hand replace data in the blockchain with just the hases. That tx is unspendable for instance, so it can be pruned.
1771 2013-03-05 21:55:34 <petertodd> Any scriptPubKey > 10KB is unspendable too, which limits things.
1772 2013-03-05 21:55:55 <warren> petertodd: and that won't break verification, as unspendable isn't hashed?
1773 2013-03-05 21:57:08 <warren> I just happened to glance at btc-e. A minute ago a Buy order for BTC appeared for 5 billion BTC at $38.192 each. There appears to be something wrong with that exchange.
1774 2013-03-05 21:57:25 <petertodd> As I said, it's a hand patch, so the verification logic needs some hacks around there, but you can still prove the tx is unspendable, thus providing a digest state and resulting hash is fine.
1775 2013-03-05 21:57:54 <petertodd> You'd basically store the last 10KB of data, and the SHA256 midstate.
1776 2013-03-05 21:58:09 <petertodd> (last 10KB+1 byte...)
1777 2013-03-05 21:58:30 <yebyen> gavinandresen: thanks so much, the nodes are hashing now! soon blocks
1778 2013-03-05 21:58:47 <warren> and btc-e just went down
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1790 2013-03-05 22:24:47 <helo> neat, eclipsemc just dropped a 485.54kb tx
1791 2013-03-05 22:24:54 <helo> err block hah
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1798 2013-03-05 22:32:58 <jaakkos> what might be the easiest way to extract data from all transactions in the block chain when running 0.7.2?
1799 2013-03-05 22:33:11 <jaakkos> (amount, destination for example)
1800 2013-03-05 22:34:26 <jaakkos> last time i played with it, the RPC would crash because of too many file descriptors -> increase file descriptors -> hang because the 64k TCP ports run out...
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1802 2013-03-05 22:35:05 <jaakkos> then i ended up coding directly to bitcoind but i'd like easier access.
1803 2013-03-05 22:35:46 <jaakkos> funny that the TCP ports would run out even with jgarzik's python-bitcoinrpc
1804 2013-03-05 22:35:53 <jaakkos> as if they were not reused.
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1806 2013-03-05 22:37:31 <petertodd> 0.8 seems to have this problem too, again with bitcoinrpc
1807 2013-03-05 22:37:40 <jaakkos> petertodd: which
1808 2013-03-05 22:37:52 <petertodd> running out of fd's
1809 2013-03-05 22:38:04 <petertodd> specifically on the python side, bitcoind is ok
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1811 2013-03-05 22:38:34 <jaakkos> yeah... you can hack that with 'ulimit' or whatever works with your distro, but then i hit the TCP port limit
1812 2013-03-05 22:39:34 <helo> jaakkos: did you try bitcointools?
1813 2013-03-05 22:39:40 <jaakkos> the OS keeps the port reserved for a while even if it has been gracefully closed because some packets might actually still be in the network. but even a short while causes the 64k ports run out in this case
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1815 2013-03-05 22:40:02 <jaakkos> petertodd: do you use jgarzik's bitcoinrpc? i think it's supposed to fix this but it didn't work for me
1816 2013-03-05 22:40:19 <petertodd> jaakkos: ah, good point, well, python-bitcoinrpc can re-use ports I think, so maybe there is just a bug there?
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1818 2013-03-05 22:41:11 <jaakkos> yeah, i didn't yet look at the code if i could find a bug
1819 2013-03-05 22:41:55 <jaakkos> petertodd: with 0.7.2 bitcoind would actually segfault because of the fd limit
1820 2013-03-05 22:42:02 <jaakkos> petertodd: oh sorry, i think 0.8 also will
1821 2013-03-05 22:42:20 <jaakkos> helo: i will look at it, thanks!
1822 2013-03-05 22:43:15 <petertodd> jaakkos: Intesting, it should be more graceful than that.
1823 2013-03-05 22:43:25 <petertodd> jaakkos: Lemme know if you find a fix; it's on my todo list as well.
1824 2013-03-05 22:43:42 <jaakkos> damn, i remember checking out the cause if i could just remember it...
1825 2013-03-05 22:43:54 <jaakkos> iirc it starts with fopen failing
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1848 2013-03-05 23:10:31 <jaakkos> hmm. how could i estimate the time when a transaction was made?
1849 2013-03-05 23:10:37 <jaakkos> the block's UTC timestamp is best bet?
1850 2013-03-05 23:11:06 <jaakkos> perhaps blockchain.info has a separate database that it maintains when it hears transactions...
1851 2013-03-05 23:11:13 <sipa> it's the only information in the blockchain available
1852 2013-03-05 23:11:34 <jaakkos> thanks
1853 2013-03-05 23:11:37 <sipa> if you want more accurate information, you'll indeed to record the first broadcast time
1854 2013-03-05 23:11:41 Shealan has joined
1855 2013-03-05 23:12:12 <jaakkos> well, 10 minute accuracy is good enough for me :)
1856 2013-03-05 23:12:21 kuzetsa has joined
1857 2013-03-05 23:13:02 <jaakkos> except that it's not rare for a transaction to not get to the next block
1858 2013-03-05 23:13:14 kuzetsa has quit (Client Quit)
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1860 2013-03-05 23:14:47 <sipa> it's far from 10 minute accuracy
1861 2013-03-05 23:14:59 <sipa> transactiins often don't go in the first block
1862 2013-03-05 23:15:17 <sipa> and blocks themself have an inaccuracy in theur timestamp of up to 2 hours
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1865 2013-03-05 23:24:03 <PRab> Is there a way to know what the priority of a transaction was when it got included in a block?
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1876 2013-03-05 23:39:08 <BlueMatt> "Developers May Be Getting 50% of Their Documentation From Stack Overflow" <-- Understatement of the year
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1881 2013-03-05 23:49:18 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: really?
1882 2013-03-05 23:49:27 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1883 2013-03-05 23:49:53 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea,its this great site that has questions and answers and shit, you should try it
1884 2013-03-05 23:50:36 <gmaxwell> 50% just sounded really high. I'd say more like 5%
1885 2013-03-05 23:50:57 <BlueMatt> wait, seriously? I would say more like 99%
1886 2013-03-05 23:51:10 <gmaxwell> and now 50% is explained!
1887 2013-03-05 23:51:18 <BlueMatt> I mean it depends highly on the language, but it could be anywhere from 50 to 99
1888 2013-03-05 23:51:30 wizkid057 has joined
1889 2013-03-05 23:51:30 <BlueMatt> no wonder my code sucks...maybe I should find better docks
1890 2013-03-05 23:51:35 <BlueMatt> s/docks/docs/
1891 2013-03-05 23:53:34 <BlueMatt> especially when you get a language that has a massive std library, then the docs suck half the time, plus if you google exactly what you want, someone has asked it on so
1892 2013-03-05 23:55:02 <freewil> gavinandresen, yebyen, im also having an issue with testnet-in-a-box stuck in the "Bitcoin is downloading blocks..." issue in 0.8.x
1893 2013-03-05 23:55:53 <freewil> not sure why it's not using the already-generated blocks from 0.7.2
1894 2013-03-05 23:56:36 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, stack overflow is excellent when you have a question that annoys everybody and the developers dont want to fix
1895 2013-03-05 23:56:42 <phantomcircuit> a recent example
1896 2013-03-05 23:57:00 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: its my understanding that 90% of issues when coding are exactly such issues
1897 2013-03-05 23:57:27 <phantomcircuit> in cherrypy once the request body has been processed there is no copy of the original, so for something like mtgox's IPN verification you have to choose between verification and nice handling of post variables
1898 2013-03-05 23:57:49 <phantomcircuit> or you can throw in a hack which is what i do
1899 2013-03-05 23:59:12 darkip has left ()
1900 2013-03-05 23:59:45 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)