1 2013-03-11 00:00:00 <HM> muhoo: you need customer client side signing
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3 2013-03-11 00:00:10 <muhoo> too complicated
4 2013-03-11 00:00:18 <Scrat> muhoo: maybe I misread it but ecommerce == receiving only (mostly)
5 2013-03-11 00:00:37 <grazs> sipa: why would we use DHT?
6 2013-03-11 00:00:44 <muhoo> no in this case it means customer spends, i take a cut, ship (digital) product, and send the rest to the artist.
7 2013-03-11 00:00:45 <HM> muhoo: maybe for the web. not really for a mobile app platform
8 2013-03-11 00:00:47 <Scrat> DHT makes your hair fall
9 2013-03-11 00:00:49 <Scrat> dont use it
10 2013-03-11 00:00:53 <HM> (but then you have new and wonderful attack vectors)
11 2013-03-11 00:01:12 <Scrat> muhoo: what weex is doing then
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13 2013-03-11 00:01:16 <grazs> I feel like I've either missed something or people are making fun of my buzzwords :)
14 2013-03-11 00:01:20 <muhoo> very similar, yes.
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17 2013-03-11 00:01:32 <HM> you have to use nodejs
18 2013-03-11 00:01:34 <HM> and bacon.js
19 2013-03-11 00:01:37 <sipa> grazs: a DHT is the thing that gets suggested by many people here
20 2013-03-11 00:01:40 <HM> everybody loves bacon.js
21 2013-03-11 00:01:44 <Scrat> include *.js
22 2013-03-11 00:01:46 <Scrat> and you're done
23 2013-03-11 00:02:13 <sipa> grazs: gmaxwell has a great quote about that, sec
24 2013-03-11 00:02:22 <grazs> I'll just rewrite everything in node on railz
25 2013-03-11 00:02:48 <sipa> < gmaxwell> Someday I'm going to get myself invited to some conference with the president, and while he's talking about some middle east conflict thingâ I'm going to ask if they've considered using a DHT.
26 2013-03-11 00:02:51 <muhoo> Scrat: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwvn8xE2ye1r95ui7o1_500.jpg
27 2013-03-11 00:03:00 <grazs> sipa: :)
28 2013-03-11 00:03:30 <sipa> grazs: to be honest, i thought you were joking you said you were using generic algorithms and artificial neural networks
29 2013-03-11 00:03:48 <muhoo> DHT and node don't bother me, but if i hear the term "big data" one more time i'll puke blood.
30 2013-03-11 00:03:50 <grazs> oh, I kinda understood that
31 2013-03-11 00:03:52 <HM> I'd phrase it differently, something like ... Weapons of mass hash dissemination
32 2013-03-11 00:04:18 <muhoo> if you want to disseminate hash, take it to SR
33 2013-03-11 00:05:03 <Scrat> muhoo: big data is up there with "cloud"
34 2013-03-11 00:05:04 <grazs> sipa: the code is a few days old, but we're planning on taking this sucker live next week. We're done but now we're just tweaking. Got them training overnight now
35 2013-03-11 00:05:26 <Scrat> also the word "technology"
36 2013-03-11 00:05:26 <muhoo> Scrat: indeed, i forgot about that one.
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38 2013-03-11 00:05:46 <muhoo> ok, enough procrastiating. back to trying to understand stuff i don't understand :-)
39 2013-03-11 00:06:00 <grazs> time for bed, nighty. thanks for the laughs
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46 2013-03-11 00:16:25 <HM> Wooo
47 2013-03-11 00:16:32 <HM> 100 million RPC calls in 35 minutes
48 2013-03-11 00:16:49 <HM> that's 21us a call, all fairly served
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57 2013-03-11 00:40:09 <phantomcircuit> HM, what do the rpc calls do?
58 2013-03-11 00:40:22 <HM> errm....return false :|
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76 2013-03-11 00:56:14 <Luke-Jr> HM: try getblockhash with a random number
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78 2013-03-11 01:00:28 <HM> Luke-Jr: lol, not bitcoind rpc's
79 2013-03-11 01:00:32 <HM> this is something i'm working on
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81 2013-03-11 01:03:39 <sipa> Luke-Jr: what % of 0.8 nodes do you see?
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97 2013-03-11 01:55:01 <Luke-Jr> sipa: 38% http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html
98 2013-03-11 01:55:36 <sipa> Luke-Jr: hmm, nice
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100 2013-03-11 01:56:07 <sipa> i get a reachability-weighted ratio of 47% even
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102 2013-03-11 01:56:22 <Luke-Jr> reachability-weighted?
103 2013-03-11 01:57:16 <sipa> count each node weighted by its reachability%
104 2013-03-11 02:03:57 <CodeShark> might such statistics not be skewed by whether nodes accept incoming connections?
105 2013-03-11 02:04:22 <sipa> i wouldn't say skewed; it's literally what i'm calculating
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107 2013-03-11 02:05:01 <sipa> of course it won't match the population of all nodes
108 2013-03-11 02:05:18 <sipa> but there's no way to observe those anyway
109 2013-03-11 02:05:25 <warren> 0.3.x nodes are still compatible?!
110 2013-03-11 02:05:34 <sipa> yes
111 2013-03-11 02:05:50 <sipa> there has never been a hardfork, ever
112 2013-03-11 02:05:56 <CodeShark> I'm saying that even major hub nodes might not be ranked too high by a bot if, say, the hub nodes have long lists of connect=
113 2013-03-11 02:05:57 <warren> ah
114 2013-03-11 02:06:14 <sipa> and only one backward-incompatible network protocol change (which kicked off pre=0.2.10 nodes)
115 2013-03-11 02:06:41 <doublec> sipa: p2sh didn't count as a hard fork?
116 2013-03-11 02:06:47 <sipa> doublec: absolutely not
117 2013-03-11 02:07:06 <sipa> that was only a softfork (=backward compatible)
118 2013-03-11 02:07:09 <doublec> ok, I thought a bunch of nodes got orphaned blocks after that
119 2013-03-11 02:07:18 <sipa> yes, it was a fork, but not a hard one
120 2013-03-11 02:07:51 <sipa> the difference is that in the case of a soft fork, only those mining on the old chain are vulnerable, but never those trusting the longest chain
121 2013-03-11 02:08:06 <sipa> while in a hardfork, every old client is dropped on the fork
122 2013-03-11 02:08:18 <doublec> ah ok
123 2013-03-11 02:08:40 <sipa> hence, softforks are safe as soon as a supermajority of miners upgrades
124 2013-03-11 02:08:52 <sipa> hardforks are safe as soon as _everyone_ (not just miners) upgrade
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126 2013-03-11 02:09:39 <doublec> that makes sense, thanks
127 2013-03-11 02:12:57 <Luke-Jr> sipa: there has..
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129 2013-03-11 02:13:32 <warren> Luke-Jr: is that nodes that are listening only?
130 2013-03-11 02:13:34 <Luke-Jr> sipa: when most script opcodes were disabled, for example
131 2013-03-11 02:13:37 <Luke-Jr> warren: yes
132 2013-03-11 02:13:38 <sipa> Luke-Jr: softfork
133 2013-03-11 02:14:15 <Luke-Jr> hmm
134 2013-03-11 02:14:20 <sipa> (clients which have all opcodes enabled still, will still validate the new best chain)
135 2013-03-11 02:14:39 <Luke-Jr> yeah, I guess you're right then
136 2013-03-11 02:15:02 <sipa> at that point in time the difference probably didn't matter much
137 2013-03-11 02:15:26 <sipa> and the OP_RETURN related bugs were probably bad enough that if a hardfork had been necessary to fix them, it wouldn't have been a problem
138 2013-03-11 02:16:31 <sipa> i wonder whether the OP_RETURN change (instead of evaluating input + OP_CODESEP + output, evaluate both separately) can result in something that is now accepted but wasn't back then
139 2013-03-11 02:16:43 <sipa> if that's the case, it was a hardfork, though i can't think of anything
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153 2013-03-11 02:58:16 <Acciaio> standard bitcoin client transaction fee are insane! http://blockchain.info/it/tx/e5767544f082391517c03e452d793c5d6e8d99bc617f13eb89c430f3dfab842e
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156 2013-03-11 03:01:56 <HM> "It's like playing Satoshi Dice, only you are using your bitcoins to buy something epic, supporting models, contributing to charity, and getting something in return."
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184 2013-03-11 03:47:43 <Lophie> hello, anyone interested in a conversation regarding electrum
185 2013-03-11 03:48:01 <Lophie> I have things I need to know and don't know where to find
186 2013-03-11 03:48:10 <Lophie> and yes I tried google o_o
187 2013-03-11 03:50:26 <phantomcircuit> did you try #electrum
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214 2013-03-11 04:30:59 <Lophie> brb
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217 2013-03-11 04:35:57 <unknown45682> hi
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241 2013-03-11 05:34:09 <bonks> In bitcoin-qt 0.8 I tried the importprivkey command via the Debug window, and any subsequent command does sent does not return a response. Is this expected behavior?
242 2013-03-11 05:34:47 <bonks> s/command does/command
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247 2013-03-11 05:46:59 <bonks> That was weird. So I saw it appear in my address book. Then decided to restart bitcoin-qt. It took several minutes to shut down. I started it again and the address moved from my Address book to Receive coins, where I expected it.
248 2013-03-11 05:53:07 <bonks> Oh I think I understand it now, it'll just take a long time to process
249 2013-03-11 05:53:10 <bonks> :x
250 2013-03-11 06:00:34 Detritus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
251 2013-03-11 06:03:52 <warren> bonks: I heard something about it rescanning the entire blockchain after import key (
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256 2013-03-11 06:08:41 <bonks> warren: Yea I just realized that in help rescan is the last parameter and defaulted to true
257 2013-03-11 06:08:46 <bonks> On my linux box I did not see that
258 2013-03-11 06:09:21 <warren> I think it can't know your balance if you don't rescan?
259 2013-03-11 06:09:55 <bonks> Probably. I'm just discovering paper wallets and am testing it out :)
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263 2013-03-11 06:13:46 <jgarzik> https://twitter.com/bitcoininfo/status/310949558102401024
264 2013-03-11 06:13:52 <jgarzik> "Confirmation time vs price: Another reason to keep the blocksize where it is? http://ur1.ca/d18t6 #bitcoin
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267 2013-03-11 06:17:28 <warren> What does he mean by "slower miners"?
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274 2013-03-11 06:49:15 <CodeShark> dunno - not sure that part really makes sense
275 2013-03-11 06:49:34 <CodeShark> the time to include new transactions (including the network latency until the miner sees the transaction) is negligible in comparison with the time it takes to mine a block
276 2013-03-11 06:51:44 <warren> supposedly including more tx's increases your chances of orphans, but I haven't seen the math of that
277 2013-03-11 06:53:00 <CodeShark> you mean deadend sidechains?
278 2013-03-11 06:53:31 <CodeShark> I hate the usage of the term "orphan" to refer to a sidechain since this usage has absolutely nothing to do with the way the term is normally understood in the English language - which is something without parents
279 2013-03-11 06:53:51 <CodeShark> and we absolutely need a term to refer to blocks that don't have known parents
280 2013-03-11 06:53:55 <CodeShark> and the term "orphan" is perfect :)
281 2013-03-11 06:54:36 <sivu> bastards instead?
282 2013-03-11 06:54:46 <sivu> for the sidechain
283 2013-03-11 06:54:47 <CodeShark> heh, that's not bad
284 2013-03-11 06:55:00 <CodeShark> I've also heard "extinct" proposed
285 2013-03-11 06:55:22 <CodeShark> an extinct block is a block which nobody mines against anymore
286 2013-03-11 06:55:35 <CodeShark> which is not in the main chain
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288 2013-03-11 06:56:05 <sivu> thats more like evolutionary misstep than extinction because the block still exists
289 2013-03-11 06:56:19 <CodeShark> yeah, true
290 2013-03-11 06:56:35 <CodeShark> and in principle it could be brought back to life (with sufficient computational power)
291 2013-03-11 06:57:55 <CodeShark> bastard block isn't that bad :)
292 2013-03-11 06:58:14 <CodeShark> lol
293 2013-03-11 07:00:17 <CodeShark> anyhow, getting back to warren's comment - how would including more tx's increase chances of bastard blocks? I suppose if two blocks are mined at around the same time and a miner sees both he might choose to mine against the smaller block so he can pocket fees from transactions in the other
294 2013-03-11 07:01:49 <CodeShark> also, sending a larger block takes slightly longer so some might argue it propagates a little more slowly (although I doubt this is significant)
295 2013-03-11 07:01:53 <weex> it takes longer for each relaying node to validate blocks with more transactions in them
296 2013-03-11 07:01:59 <weex> so network propogation is slower
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298 2013-03-11 07:02:20 <CodeShark> yeah, but by how much?
299 2013-03-11 07:02:27 <CodeShark> can't be more than the order of seconds
300 2013-03-11 07:02:54 <weex> i think gavin calculated this in a recent foundation or forum post
301 2013-03-11 07:03:23 <warren> CodeShark: bigger blocks take longer to propagate, increasing the likelihood of a competing block to orphan it? I'm not really sure.
302 2013-03-11 07:03:24 <CodeShark> in any case, it's far less than the 10 expected minutes between blocks
303 2013-03-11 07:03:45 <warren> CodeShark: apparently some pools reduced tx's to reduce orphans
304 2013-03-11 07:04:32 <CodeShark> I guess we need a new word to describe blocks without known parents :(
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306 2013-03-11 07:04:44 <CodeShark> because we're going to have nomenclature confusion forever
307 2013-03-11 07:05:45 <weex> vestigal
308 2013-03-11 07:07:33 <CodeShark> vestigal is a great term for deadend sidechain blocks
309 2013-03-11 07:08:21 <CodeShark> they still exist...but they no longer support the organism
310 2013-03-11 07:08:29 Detritus has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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312 2013-03-11 07:09:15 <CodeShark> I'm gonna see if I can convince piuk to change the term on blockchain.info
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314 2013-03-11 07:10:06 <CodeShark> I don't mind using a different word for these blocks - the problem is that now I don't have a word to describe blocks without known parents
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318 2013-03-11 07:11:28 <CodeShark> and the term orphan to mean "an object without known parents" is consistent with the way satoshi used it and the way it's used in the bitcoind source code
319 2013-03-11 07:12:06 <CodeShark> and inconsistent with the way blockchain.info uses it
320 2013-03-11 07:12:46 gjs278 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
321 2013-03-11 07:13:29 <warren> CodeShark: Folks need to get over "the way satoshi used it" as reason for anything.
322 2013-03-11 07:13:31 gjs278 has joined
323 2013-03-11 07:13:43 <warren> CodeShark: He is wicked smart, but he can't have got everything right.
324 2013-03-11 07:13:49 <CodeShark> that's not the main reason - the main reason is that that's what it actually means in the English language
325 2013-03-11 07:13:50 <CodeShark> lol
326 2013-03-11 07:13:57 <CodeShark> that's how it's construed in the English language
327 2013-03-11 07:14:07 <CodeShark> whereas blockchain.info's usage is totally foreign
328 2013-03-11 07:14:08 grau has joined
329 2013-03-11 07:14:14 <warren> The parents disowned it, or the parents were killed.
330 2013-03-11 07:14:50 warren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
331 2013-03-11 07:14:54 <CodeShark> there are many things that satoshi did that I disagree with - but his usage of this term is not one of them :)
332 2013-03-11 07:15:21 warren has joined
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334 2013-03-11 07:16:50 <CodeShark> someone whose parents are killed is not necessarily an orphan
335 2013-03-11 07:17:06 <CodeShark> and a parent block has no say as to whether its children are disowned
336 2013-03-11 07:17:28 <CodeShark> it's the later generations that determine whether it stays in the main chain
337 2013-03-11 07:18:00 <CodeShark> furthermore, an orphan's parents might still be alive
338 2013-03-11 07:18:03 mrkent has joined
339 2013-03-11 07:18:07 <CodeShark> orphan just means we don't know who the parents are
340 2013-03-11 07:18:14 zooko has quit (Quit: zzzzz)
341 2013-03-11 07:18:14 mrkent has left ("Leaving")
342 2013-03-11 07:18:29 <CodeShark> anyhow, it's silly to argue this :p
343 2013-03-11 07:19:47 <CodeShark> if everyone wants to redefine "orphan" to mean a block in a chain which is no longer being extended, I don't really have a problem with that - as long as we also have an unambiguous term to mean a block whose parents we don't know...and make sure to mention this in the documentation so people familiar with typical English usage of these terms doesn't get confused
344 2013-03-11 07:21:53 MobPhone has quit (Quit: -a-)
345 2013-03-11 07:22:00 <CodeShark> also, comments should be added to the bitcoind source code to point out this discrepancy :)
346 2013-03-11 07:22:47 <CodeShark> I guess we could use the term "unconnected chain"
347 2013-03-11 07:22:53 <CodeShark> rather than "orphaned chain"
348 2013-03-11 07:23:44 <CodeShark> it might still become a side chain if we learn of the blocks connecting it with the genesis block
349 2013-03-11 07:23:57 <CodeShark> so "orphaned" status isn't necessarily permanent
350 2013-03-11 07:26:00 ahbritto has joined
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355 2013-03-11 07:29:10 <CodeShark> or the term "isolated" might also work
356 2013-03-11 07:29:22 <CodeShark> an isolated block - or an isolated chain
357 2013-03-11 07:29:40 nOgAnOo has joined
358 2013-03-11 07:29:56 <warren> isolated has an incorrect implication of valid
359 2013-03-11 07:30:49 <CodeShark> island block and island chain?
360 2013-03-11 07:30:51 <CodeShark> lol
361 2013-03-11 07:33:00 <CodeShark> problem with the term "unconnected" is that we're only referring to backwards connections - it might still be referenced by future blocks
362 2013-03-11 07:33:04 <CodeShark> unlinked?
363 2013-03-11 07:33:26 <warren> by future blocks that could reorg the entire chain and become the valid one?
364 2013-03-11 07:33:58 <CodeShark> the block chain is a singly linked list - what's the official term for an element in a linked list which has a bad pointer? :)
365 2013-03-11 07:34:04 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
366 2013-03-11 07:34:43 <CodeShark> or for a linked list which contains a node with a bad pointer
367 2013-03-11 07:36:50 <CodeShark> "unconnected" is analogous in this context with the way it is used to refer to transactions which have bad inputs
368 2013-03-11 07:38:20 <CodeShark> or inputs whose scripts we cannot validate for whatever reason
369 2013-03-11 07:38:43 PlantMan has joined
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371 2013-03-11 07:40:28 <CodeShark> anyhow, I don't mean to be pedantic - there are real practical reasons for having an unambiguous term
372 2013-03-11 07:40:29 <CodeShark> :p
373 2013-03-11 07:41:48 <warren> CodeShark: you're having a long conversation with yourself
374 2013-03-11 07:42:49 iddo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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376 2013-03-11 07:43:15 <CodeShark> anyhow, back to the idea that including more transactions increases the risk of an abandoned block
377 2013-03-11 07:43:30 <CodeShark> (I like the term abandoned, btw)
378 2013-03-11 07:44:39 Goonie has joined
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380 2013-03-11 07:45:30 <CodeShark> isn't it really the number of inputs that determines how quickly it can be validated?
381 2013-03-11 07:45:37 <CodeShark> not the number of transactions
382 2013-03-11 07:45:52 <rdponticelli1> I'm getting depressed... All those poor little blocks... :P
383 2013-03-11 07:45:57 <CodeShark> lol
384 2013-03-11 07:46:10 <warren> CodeShark: perhaps "unfavored"
385 2013-03-11 07:46:59 <CodeShark> the bottleneck in transaction validation is signature verification - which happens once per txin
386 2013-03-11 07:47:43 <CodeShark> or more, perhaps
387 2013-03-11 07:47:46 <CodeShark> in the case of a multisig
388 2013-03-11 07:49:57 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
389 2013-03-11 07:51:22 <CodeShark> another thing about block validation - nodes can validate transactions prior to seeing them in blocks - and there's no real need to revalidate the transaction when the block is seen
390 2013-03-11 07:53:28 <CodeShark> although I don't think bitcoind does this optimization
391 2013-03-11 07:55:44 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
392 2013-03-11 07:58:39 <CodeShark> or nevermind...
393 2013-03-11 07:59:03 <CodeShark> once a transaction is marked as connected it is no longer validated
394 2013-03-11 07:59:18 <CodeShark> (at least the signatures aren't verified again)
395 2013-03-11 08:01:16 <CodeShark> so this would only apply to transactions in the block that are not already in the mempool
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435 2013-03-11 09:48:11 <moarrr> Bitcoins @ 5JzdYNEKBZhCmubuhosCWsM5e6cDguhsdnSK7jumegQU9cZBKq3 (1jqfg3fCu4ssKWANk2FvXoU3x54pBPGoc)
436 2013-03-11 09:50:01 CaptainBlaze has joined
437 2013-03-11 09:58:15 JZavala has joined
438 2013-03-11 09:58:29 <CodeShark> current balance is 0 :p
439 2013-03-11 09:58:51 <CodeShark> and it never had an output large enough to even be worth spending
440 2013-03-11 10:00:10 PRab has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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447 2013-03-11 10:04:01 JDuke128 has joined
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449 2013-03-11 10:05:44 <CodeShark> lol
450 2013-03-11 10:06:28 rdymac has joined
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455 2013-03-11 10:08:45 <lianj> wonder which one makes it
456 2013-03-11 10:10:38 rdymac has quit (Client Quit)
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463 2013-03-11 10:18:27 <lianj> ah, the higher fee one ofcourse
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508 2013-03-11 12:17:18 whitez has joined
509 2013-03-11 12:18:12 <whitez> Hello. Super n00b question, but where can I download bitcoind?
510 2013-03-11 12:18:27 <sipa> bitcoin.org
511 2013-03-11 12:19:09 <kriqCoin> I hear there was a meetup in Zurich of BC devs
512 2013-03-11 12:19:19 <kriqCoin> whats up with that?
513 2013-03-11 12:20:49 Prattler has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
514 2013-03-11 12:21:07 <epscy> they were discussing the killswitch
515 2013-03-11 12:21:14 <whitez> sipa: Is it embedded in Bitcoin-Qt?
516 2013-03-11 12:22:26 Prattler has joined
517 2013-03-11 12:24:49 fishfish has quit (Quit: Zzzzz..zzzzz)
518 2013-03-11 12:25:14 <CodeShark> Bitcoin-Qt is essentially bitcoind with a GUI on top of it
519 2013-03-11 12:26:04 <whitez> CodeShark: Ok, I see. I
520 2013-03-11 12:26:33 <whitez> I've downloaded Bitcoin, so I'll try to load it as a daemon
521 2013-03-11 12:27:37 <CodeShark> you can also build it yourself if you prefer from the github repository
522 2013-03-11 12:28:01 <CodeShark> and you can also get it as a package with several linux distros
523 2013-03-11 12:28:13 Mandrius has left ("Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is")
524 2013-03-11 12:28:13 Mandrius has joined
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526 2013-03-11 12:34:47 <whitez> CodeShark: It works!!!
527 2013-03-11 12:34:58 <CodeShark> :)
528 2013-03-11 12:35:04 <whitez> Magic :D
529 2013-03-11 12:35:32 <whitez> And the icon is all nice and green. Awesome. Thanks very much! â
530 2013-03-11 12:35:49 <sipa> whitez: if you're seeing an icon, you're not running bitcoind
531 2013-03-11 12:36:06 <TD> kriqCoin: yeah
532 2013-03-11 12:36:30 <TD> kriqCoin: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bitcoin-switzerland/QsIPKM-AYxY/iFwXbq_oobIJ
533 2013-03-11 12:38:14 <CodeShark> I'd also be interested in what stephan has to say :)
534 2013-03-11 12:38:15 <Scrat> google performing a 51% attack in the zurich meetup?
535 2013-03-11 12:40:47 <whitez> sipa: Do you know how to make it not-an-icon ?
536 2013-03-11 12:41:16 <whitez> "Bitcoin-Qt -datadir=1 -daemon"
537 2013-03-11 12:41:23 <sipa> whitez: bitcoin-qt is the GUI, bitcoind has no GUI, so if you see any GUI, you
538 2013-03-11 12:41:32 <sipa> 're not running bitcoind but bitcoin-qt
539 2013-03-11 12:41:36 <CodeShark> whitez, if it's built as Bitcoin-Qt you cannot make it headless - you need to build it headless
540 2013-03-11 12:41:42 Conflict has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
541 2013-03-11 12:41:53 <CodeShark> so you need to either get a bitcoind binary or build it from source
542 2013-03-11 12:42:06 <whitez> Ah, I see - build from source. Gotcha. Will do. Thanks. :)
543 2013-03-11 12:42:25 da2ce7 has joined
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546 2013-03-11 12:46:04 <CodeShark> Bitcoin-Qt and bitcoind are two different builds that use the same underlying source code for the daemon portion
547 2013-03-11 12:46:27 eckey has joined
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550 2013-03-11 12:47:29 <whitez> I'm on a Mac, so working off this now: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/793/what-are-the-steps-in-building-bitcoind-on-mac-os-x-10-6?rq=1
551 2013-03-11 12:47:55 <sipa> oh, right; for windows and linux, bitcoind is just bundled with the package, but on OSX it's only bitcoin-qt
552 2013-03-11 12:49:01 <CodeShark> whitez, you can also install macports and then port install boost
553 2013-03-11 12:49:14 <whitez> boost?
554 2013-03-11 12:49:31 <CodeShark> it's one of the library dependencies
555 2013-03-11 12:49:45 <CodeShark> https://github.com/CodeShark/bitcoin/blob/configure_script/doc/build-osx.txt
556 2013-03-11 12:49:52 <whitez> It's whirring and clicking now....
557 2013-03-11 12:50:25 <CodeShark> what version of OS X are you running?
558 2013-03-11 12:51:13 <whitez> CodeShark: Oh, that's helpful, thanks. 10.8.2
559 2013-03-11 12:51:39 <CodeShark> then it's the same as for 10.7
560 2013-03-11 12:52:46 <whitez> I started by trying "sudo port install bitcoin", I don't need a super up-to-date version.
561 2013-03-11 12:53:10 <CodeShark> is there a macport for bitcoin? lol
562 2013-03-11 12:53:53 <sipa> whitez: you really want an up-to-date version - old versions have significantly worse performance, and often security bugs
563 2013-03-11 12:54:19 <CodeShark> and are also likely to be abandoned by the network in future releases
564 2013-03-11 12:54:29 <whitez> sipa: Oh, ok. I'll let this finish and then install a shiney new version
565 2013-03-11 12:55:13 <CodeShark> that build-osx.txt gives you step-by-step instructions for installing the newest release
566 2013-03-11 12:56:25 <whitez> Hah! "Error: Processing of port bitcoin failed"
567 2013-03-11 12:56:32 <whitez> I'll try your way now. :)
568 2013-03-11 12:57:03 <CodeShark> I'd be curious as to why it failed
569 2013-03-11 12:58:05 <whitez> CodeShark: I can send you the log if you want.
570 2013-03-11 12:58:13 <CodeShark> yes, please do so
571 2013-03-11 12:58:17 drizztbsd has joined
572 2013-03-11 12:58:53 <gavinandresen> whitez: Ignore the "uncomment build_arch" instruction
573 2013-03-11 12:59:02 <gavinandresen> .. that'll just get you a bunch of conflicts with your existing ports
574 2013-03-11 12:59:09 <whitez> gavinandresen: Ok
575 2013-03-11 12:59:21 whitez is now known as jonwaller
576 2013-03-11 13:00:44 <kriqCoin> Thanks TD
577 2013-03-11 13:00:53 <kriqCoin> I am bringing along some friends)
578 2013-03-11 13:03:23 distortednet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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615 2013-03-11 13:56:27 <ItsDom> So satoshi client tracks up 16k known nodes. Does anyone know the justification for the number 16k?
616 2013-03-11 13:57:00 <HM> it's higher than 10k and lower than 20k
617 2013-03-11 13:57:15 <ItsDom> aaah, I hadn't thought of that.... ¬_¬ :P
618 2013-03-11 13:58:00 <ItsDom> but seriously though, if only keeping about 10 live connections, why hold as much as 16k? and if network is well of 16k, why only hold 16k? Is it just a trade off between resources and network knowledge?
619 2013-03-11 13:58:12 <ItsDom> well over*
620 2013-03-11 13:58:24 <HM> is it actually 16k, or 16384?
621 2013-03-11 13:58:38 <davout> ItsDom: why do you say it keeps only 10 connections ?
622 2013-03-11 13:59:10 <sipa> ItsDom: have you read the comments in addrman.h ?
623 2013-03-11 13:59:29 <ItsDom> I can't remember the exact number, but it only maintains a small number of connections, around 10 I thought. That's what I was told on here yesterday. I read the comments but it doesn't justify the numbers
624 2013-03-11 13:59:40 <ItsDom> it gives the numbers, but no reason as to why (not that I could find)
625 2013-03-11 13:59:42 TD has left ("Leaving")
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627 2013-03-11 13:59:52 <davout> I believe you can change it in bitcoin.conf
628 2013-03-11 14:00:06 <davout> but as for the why it's a good question
629 2013-03-11 14:00:13 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: It makes 8 outbound connections.
630 2013-03-11 14:00:20 <gmaxwell> davout: go read the extensive comments in addrman.h
631 2013-03-11 14:00:23 <ItsDom> but my original point still stands: why hold so many known nodes if you're only going to use a small fraction of them?
632 2013-03-11 14:00:31 axhlf has joined
633 2013-03-11 14:01:01 <ItsDom> I could understand it hold ALL the known nodes in the network (that would obvs be a bit silly from scalability point of view) but 16k just seems a bit....random?
634 2013-03-11 14:01:10 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: You are connected to 8 outbound at any one time. But your memory is persistent.
635 2013-03-11 14:01:39 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: there are potentially 2^128 possible nodes that you can be told about. You are not going to store all you've been told about.
636 2013-03-11 14:01:58 <ItsDom> exactly, it would be silly.
637 2013-03-11 14:02:08 <gmaxwell> No. Not silly. Not possible.
638 2013-03-11 14:02:26 <ItsDom> but why not just hold, say, 512 known nodes?
639 2013-03-11 14:02:34 <gmaxwell> It would be nice to store all of themâ but we used to, but then its a DOS vector.
640 2013-03-11 14:02:49 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: because we need to resist a malicious peer flushing out the memory.
641 2013-03-11 14:02:57 <gmaxwell> This is explained in addrman.h.
642 2013-03-11 14:03:20 <ItsDom> I'll go take another look through addrman.h - I didn't notice that bit.
643 2013-03-11 14:04:00 ciphermonk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
644 2013-03-11 14:07:04 <ItsDom> Ah, I see the comment, I didn't make the link in my head the ability to fill the nodes list with malicious entries and the size of the known nodes list.
645 2013-03-11 14:07:22 <ItsDom> so is this based on the assumption that an attacker wont have more than 16k compromised nodes....?
646 2013-03-11 14:08:22 <gmaxwell> ::sigh::
647 2013-03-11 14:08:30 <gmaxwell> Do you see the number "16k" in there?
648 2013-03-11 14:11:30 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
649 2013-03-11 14:12:30 <ItsDom> No, i was assuming 16k from 256 buckets for new addresses and 64 entries per bucket.....
650 2013-03-11 14:15:15 <ItsDom> it's actually less than 16k though due to duplications.
651 2013-03-11 14:16:11 <gmaxwell> The parameters are selected to give resistance to attack, the total is just falls out of those. There are actually 20480 slots in total, but as you note there can be some duplication (which is intended and good as it makes flushing harder). But the total numbers aren't so interesting, they're just a result of trading off attack resistance against storage.
652 2013-03-11 14:16:40 meLon has joined
653 2013-03-11 14:19:08 <ItsDom> Aaah, thanks for the response. I suspected as much. Thanks again for taking the time to help - I really appreciate it.
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672 2013-03-11 15:08:02 * jgarzik wonders what happened to [tycho]
673 2013-03-11 15:08:10 <jgarzik> doesn't seem to login much anymore
674 2013-03-11 15:08:13 <jgarzik> ;;seen [Tycho]
675 2013-03-11 15:08:14 <gribble> Error: "Tycho" is not a valid command.
676 2013-03-11 15:08:23 <jgarzik> ;;seen \[Tycho\]
677 2013-03-11 15:08:23 <gribble> Error: "Tycho\" is not a valid command.
678 2013-03-11 15:08:38 vampireb has joined
679 2013-03-11 15:08:54 <kinlo> ;;seen tycho
680 2013-03-11 15:08:54 <gribble> I have not seen tycho.
681 2013-03-11 15:09:01 <kinlo> ofcourse, that's useless
682 2013-03-11 15:09:05 <abracadabra> !seen [Tycho]
683 2013-03-11 15:09:05 <gribble> Error: "Tycho" is not a valid command.
684 2013-03-11 15:09:11 <abracadabra> meh
685 2013-03-11 15:09:16 <abracadabra> to the logmobile!
686 2013-03-11 15:09:20 <gmaxwell> I saw nanotube tell some other user how to deal with that.
687 2013-03-11 15:09:28 <kinlo> the problem is that gribble wants to expand stuff :)
688 2013-03-11 15:09:37 <Scrat> nickserv to the rescue
689 2013-03-11 15:09:40 <Scrat> [17:09] -NickServ- Last seen : Dec 06 15:09:13 2012 (13 weeks, 3 days, 23:59:58 ago)
690 2013-03-11 15:10:03 <abracadabra> tycho is hard at work adding stratum to his pool
691 2013-03-11 15:10:04 <abracadabra> ;)
692 2013-03-11 15:10:33 <Graet> heh
693 2013-03-11 15:10:57 <kinlo> ;;seen "[tycho]"
694 2013-03-11 15:10:57 <gribble> [tycho] was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 18 weeks, 0 days, 16 hours, 11 minutes, and 58 seconds ago: <[Tycho]> !seen tcatm
695 2013-03-11 15:11:03 <kinlo> there you go :)
696 2013-03-11 15:11:10 <kinlo> rtfm still works :p
697 2013-03-11 15:11:19 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: he never did :p
698 2013-03-11 15:11:57 fishfishclone has joined
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700 2013-03-11 15:14:46 fishfish has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
701 2013-03-11 15:15:25 <SomeoneWeird> ;;seen "[Tycho]"
702 2013-03-11 15:15:26 <gribble> [Tycho] was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 18 weeks, 0 days, 16 hours, 16 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: <[Tycho]> !seen tcatm
703 2013-03-11 15:16:45 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
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713 2013-03-11 15:36:43 <WolfWindshadow_> I am working on a little coin project of my own, just to teach my kids about BTC and crypto in general, and was wondering where in the source I set the limits on total coins and the difficulty, so that I can set up my own little demo network.
714 2013-03-11 15:37:07 <WolfWindshadow_> what file would that be in?
715 2013-03-11 15:37:12 <SomeoneWeird> how old are they? (just wondering)
716 2013-03-11 15:37:16 <SomeoneWeird> also look at testnetinabox
717 2013-03-11 15:37:30 <_dr> you're never too young to learn about generators in cyclic groups!
718 2013-03-11 15:37:35 <SomeoneWeird> https://github.com/freewil/bitcoin-testnet-box
719 2013-03-11 15:39:07 <jgarzik> ouch, poor BTCGuild. Accidentally paid out for some generated blocks, before their server caught up with the chain
720 2013-03-11 15:39:17 <WolfWindshadow_> that addy is 404
721 2013-03-11 15:39:17 <jgarzik> ancient blocks, at low difficulty
722 2013-03-11 15:39:39 <SomeoneWeird> refresh a couple times, github is having some problems
723 2013-03-11 15:41:33 xjrn has joined
724 2013-03-11 15:41:36 <WolfWindshadow_> ok... in any case, anybody know what files I would dig in to change that? I've been programming since basic on the Commodore 64 was as good as it got, just a matter of finding it....
725 2013-03-11 15:42:03 <xjrn> WolfWindshadow_: asm on the c64 was as good as it got though
726 2013-03-11 15:42:31 <WolfWindshadow_> asm was a p.i.t.a. :P
727 2013-03-11 15:42:55 <WolfWindshadow_> but did freak out teachers that did not now it
728 2013-03-11 15:42:59 <WolfWindshadow_> know
729 2013-03-11 15:44:26 <TD> jgarzik: oops
730 2013-03-11 15:44:40 <TD> jgarzik: yeah, details like that make bitcoin programming remarkably painful and tricky to get right
731 2013-03-11 15:44:44 <xjrn> WolfWindshadow_: i tuned in late, sorry, i can't be of more assistance
732 2013-03-11 15:45:08 <TD> jgarzik: i've been trying to figure out how to make bitcoinj as safe an API as possible and the number of edge cases you end up with is just amazing
733 2013-03-11 15:45:41 <WolfWindshadow_> was asking where in the bitcoin source to change things to set difficulty and total coins and such to make my own small demo network for my kids
734 2013-03-11 15:46:06 <WolfWindshadow_> teaching the little cyber-monsters how to use crypto
735 2013-03-11 15:46:40 <xjrn> worst-case, create some blocks on bogus datetime trajectories
736 2013-03-11 15:46:44 <TD> WolfWindshadow_: hm, i was only interested in video games when i was a kid :)
737 2013-03-11 15:47:05 <TD> WolfWindshadow_: the bitcoin codebase is not exactly kid friendly (or adult friendly for that matter), but look in main.cc for the constants at the top
738 2013-03-11 15:47:17 zooko has joined
739 2013-03-11 15:48:11 <lianj> http://i.imgur.com/cQlkclt.gif
740 2013-03-11 15:48:35 <helo> WolfWindshadow_: it may be easier to teach them crypto by using bitcoin directly... there's still plenty of crypto going on even after the coin is started
741 2013-03-11 15:49:14 <gavinandresen> WolfWindshadow_: BlueMatt uses a patch that sets difficulty very low as part of our pull-tester process...
742 2013-03-11 15:49:48 <gavinandresen> WolfWindshadow_: ⦠ah, the .patch file here: https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/test-scripts/
743 2013-03-11 15:50:36 <WolfWindshadow_> thanks... code is my thing.... starting with the concepts... once I have a demo running, gonna leave it to them and their friends...
744 2013-03-11 15:50:55 <WolfWindshadow_> thanks again, and have a great day
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751 2013-03-11 15:56:58 <TD> sigh
752 2013-03-11 15:57:04 <TD> the bitcoinj api is so crap in so many ways
753 2013-03-11 15:57:34 <gavinandresen> api design is really hard
754 2013-03-11 15:58:05 <TD> yeah. especially when there aren't any pre-existing examples to help you. and especially when the thing the api does is inherently concurrent. and especially when some of your users have hard latency/thread affinity requirements.
755 2013-03-11 15:58:24 <sipa> the largest problem is that use cases evolve, and you don't know in what ways you'll need extensibility in the future
756 2013-03-11 15:58:34 <TD> that's definitely a large problem.
757 2013-03-11 15:59:01 <TD> right now one of my biggest source of bugs comes from the fact that there are listeners you can register at various points, and managing the re-entrancy and locking around that is quite hard, as basically at any listener point anything can happen
758 2013-03-11 15:59:29 <TD> it's awfully handy to just have a function that runs when something happens, but it's an absolute nightmare to handle all the different possibilities.
759 2013-03-11 15:59:50 <Scrat> TD: can I use the bitcoinj API if I don't run a java client?
760 2013-03-11 16:00:05 <gavinandresen> api design for multithreading is hard^n ...
761 2013-03-11 16:00:10 <TD> ainfo was asking me about this. i experimented with compiling it down to native code and using it from (objective) C++ a while ago
762 2013-03-11 16:00:21 <TD> it worked OK. i mean it presented a basically C++-like API, with a bit of massaging
763 2013-03-11 16:00:28 <TD> that was using GCJ/CNI
764 2013-03-11 16:00:46 <TD> but that branch bitrotted. i upgraded bouncy castle and some code i didn't use hit a stub. i never got around to slicing the necessary parts out, as nobody seemed to care about it much
765 2013-03-11 16:01:08 <TD> also, back then i was doing it for an iphone client, and then apple banned everything. so i stopped. if there's interest i can try to resurrect it.
766 2013-03-11 16:01:34 <HM> Atm I'm trying to massage some APIs in to a stateless condition
767 2013-03-11 16:01:42 <HM> so servers don't need to maintain any state
768 2013-03-11 16:01:49 <HM> API design is a time sink
769 2013-03-11 16:01:50 <TD> which APIs?
770 2013-03-11 16:01:56 <_dr> did apple give a reason? or simple 'violation of tos, blah!'
771 2013-03-11 16:01:59 <HM> just a mini bitcoin project
772 2013-03-11 16:02:20 <TD> _dr: some kneejerk reaction by a lawyer there, iiuc. something like "money is hard! it's probably illegal somewhere in the world. simpler to just ban it"
773 2013-03-11 16:02:29 davout has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
774 2013-03-11 16:02:36 <_dr> that's what i was expecting
775 2013-03-11 16:02:37 <TD> HM: yeah it's a timesink but a very important one. otherwise you end up with mistakes like BTCGuilds
776 2013-03-11 16:02:45 <TD> my goal is to make dangerous mistakes like that hard to do
777 2013-03-11 16:03:41 <HM> got an example of a bad API you're dealing with right now?
778 2013-03-11 16:03:47 <TD> bitcoinj :)
779 2013-03-11 16:03:52 <TD> ok, most of it isn't terrible
780 2013-03-11 16:03:53 <HM> yeah, but specifically
781 2013-03-11 16:04:34 <TD> transactions have an associated object called TransactionConfidence which has data on things like how deep it is in the chain, how many peers announced it, whether it's in a side chain or not, etc
782 2013-03-11 16:04:41 <TD> you can register a listener on that so you find out when it's changed.
783 2013-03-11 16:05:07 nus has joined
784 2013-03-11 16:05:07 <TD> the idea being, if a transaction reaches, say, 6 confirmations, and you want to do something at that point, you can just do that within your listener.
785 2013-03-11 16:05:19 <HM> edge triggered or level triggered?
786 2013-03-11 16:05:53 <TD> how do you mean? the listeners are run on any change. it's up to you to determine whether the transition is interesting.
787 2013-03-11 16:06:04 <HM> right
788 2013-03-11 16:06:11 <HM> so what's the problem with it?
789 2013-03-11 16:06:14 <TD> ie, depth can go down as well as up
790 2013-03-11 16:06:18 <TD> the problem is that there are unexpected re-entrancy constraints on what you can actually do inside that listener.
791 2013-03-11 16:06:24 <TD> well, that's one problem
792 2013-03-11 16:06:51 <TD> another problem is that the confidence data is sometimes modified in ways that users would not expect. for example, during a re-organize, confidence can change to intermediate states.
793 2013-03-11 16:06:56 <TD> because of how the code is written.
794 2013-03-11 16:06:57 moarrr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
795 2013-03-11 16:07:14 <HM> sounds like a super-callback
796 2013-03-11 16:07:17 <HM> trying to do too much
797 2013-03-11 16:08:01 <TD> as a trivial example, it's not safe to actually re-spend the money from inside the listener, because the listeners run with the wallet locked. if you then try and lock a peer, you can trigger an inversion detection assert.
798 2013-03-11 16:08:11 <TD> so it's just a mess.
799 2013-03-11 16:08:36 <TD> i think the right fix is to make the whole confidence object immutable, and then batch up changes during certain operations so they don't trigger event listeners.
800 2013-03-11 16:08:51 <TD> and then trigger the listener once at the end with the very latest state, without the wallet being locked.
801 2013-03-11 16:08:58 flyingkiwiguy has joined
802 2013-03-11 16:09:05 <HM> why is it not immutable?
803 2013-03-11 16:09:34 <TD> because confidence is inherently something that changes, right :) the only question is whether the whole object changes or whether parts of it are tweaked directly.
804 2013-03-11 16:09:50 <HM> yeah, but from the callback it should be immutable
805 2013-03-11 16:10:03 <HM> send the callback a copy and then hold no locks
806 2013-03-11 16:10:13 <TD> yes. that's pretty much what i'm saying needs to change.
807 2013-03-11 16:11:30 <HM> i guess it depends whether you need to enforce immutability over the entire callback
808 2013-03-11 16:11:32 <TD> along with lots of other things
809 2013-03-11 16:12:00 <HM> but there's a difference between notifications and pluggable functionality
810 2013-03-11 16:12:28 <TD> the issue is not so much that the confidence object can change during a callback. it's more that the act of changing the confidence data is too tightly linked to the act of running the callbacks
811 2013-03-11 16:12:49 <TD> so there are too many places where the confidence is mutated but it's not really safe for the wallet to be arbitrarily re-entered.
812 2013-03-11 16:12:49 <HM> this is what i meant by edge triggered, you need to decide whether the confidence is static while the callback is in flight.
813 2013-03-11 16:13:08 <HM> ah
814 2013-03-11 16:13:20 <HM> spaghetti code
815 2013-03-11 16:13:56 <TD> i wouldn't say it's spaghetti. but it's certainly complicated. it can be simplified a bit, but most of the complexity comes from the inherent nature of what some of these objects do. eg, processing a re-org is inherently a complicated operation
816 2013-03-11 16:14:16 <TD> because you're essentially rewinding time and then replaying a new timeline, and what the API user really wants to find out, is the delta between those two timelines
817 2013-03-11 16:14:44 <TD> and if there were any "merge conflicts" (i.e. double spends)
818 2013-03-11 16:14:54 <TD> Satoshis code is already complicated and he didn't try to tackle this at all
819 2013-03-11 16:15:13 <HM> sounds like you need a fullhog message queue and signal system
820 2013-03-11 16:15:18 <TD> double spends trigger absolutely no useful form of feedback and there's not really any obvious place to fix that. if a tx is double spent away it just goes unconfirmed forever.
821 2013-03-11 16:16:08 <TD> the callbacks are basically signals, of a form.
822 2013-03-11 16:16:20 <TD> (you can add/remove listeners at any point)
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825 2013-03-11 16:16:41 <HM> but all callbacks should be called under a set of well defined preconditions
826 2013-03-11 16:17:00 <TD> yeah. mostly they are. it's this one corner of the api where the callbacks are problematic.
827 2013-03-11 16:17:20 <TD> the callbacks for things like peers being connected, disconnected, new blocks being processed etc are all ok
828 2013-03-11 16:17:51 <TD> most of the classes allow for arbitrary re-entrancy.
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831 2013-03-11 16:19:24 <TD> i think we'll get this sorted. it's an ongoing effort. the api is ugly in other ways too, but i'm not aware of a better one.
832 2013-03-11 16:19:35 <TD> at least it has good documentation and is mostly unsurprising
833 2013-03-11 16:19:47 <TD> it also has example apps, things like that
834 2013-03-11 16:20:06 <grau> TD: I solve the problem by disconnecting callbacks though a message bus. Events sent there have high abstraction e.g. complete reorg of blocks added/removed
835 2013-03-11 16:21:02 <TD> well, if you register an event listener on the BlockChain then you get access to the list of blocks on both sides of the chain plus the split point.
836 2013-03-11 16:21:17 <TD> the problem being that that isn't what is directly interesting to the users. they are thinking in terms of transactions (really: payments).
837 2013-03-11 16:21:31 <TD> so they want to know that transaction XYZ just got double-spent away, or that it reached a certain amount of work done, etc
838 2013-03-11 16:21:38 <HM> sounds like a new API is required
839 2013-03-11 16:21:43 <HM> one that deals only in user concerns
840 2013-03-11 16:21:44 <TD> and then on learning that they want to do things :)
841 2013-03-11 16:21:50 <TD> HM: that's what the bitcoinj api is trying to do
842 2013-03-11 16:22:07 <TD> HM: the devil is in the details, however. i'll fix it and then it'll behave exactly as users expect/need.
843 2013-03-11 16:22:36 <TD> right now the API looks right, but there are odd restrictions on what you can do, and sometimes you get state changes that don't really map directly to user-interesting events. so it just needs tightening up.
844 2013-03-11 16:24:29 <grau> HM: here it is https://github.com/bitsofproof/supernode/blob/master/api/src/main/java/com/bitsofproof/supernode/api/BCSAPI.java
845 2013-03-11 16:24:47 <grau> A new API, that has payment focus
846 2013-03-11 16:25:51 <TD> yes, but it's currently under-specified. eg, if I use registerConfirmationListener you say it's called "if the transaction is confirmed up to depth 10 "
847 2013-03-11 16:26:01 <TD> so what happens if it gets to 10 blocks, then a re-org moves it down to 8 blocks
848 2013-03-11 16:26:09 <TD> and then it goes back to 10 blocks after a couple more blocks arrive
849 2013-03-11 16:26:15 <TD> does it get called twice?
850 2013-03-11 16:26:32 <TD> also, what happens if a re-org means that the tx will never confirm because its inputs were double spent? etc
851 2013-03-11 16:26:40 <TD> so, it's just tough to get all these details right
852 2013-03-11 16:26:44 <HM> hmm
853 2013-03-11 16:27:01 <TD> grau: also that interface doesn't say anything about what thread it runs on or what re-entrancy is allowed
854 2013-03-11 16:27:15 <grau> TD: yes it is called whenever confirmation number of tx changes
855 2013-03-11 16:27:16 <HM> well you perhaps need to specify the maximum difference between blockchain heights before it's called
856 2013-03-11 16:27:29 <HM> so like, depth of 10 with a minimum block branch distance of 4
857 2013-03-11 16:27:31 <TD> so what's the "up to 10" about?
858 2013-03-11 16:27:31 <HM> or whatever
859 2013-03-11 16:27:43 <lianj> TD: maybe have a reorg callback in the callback and if its != null then this confirmation happend due to a reorg
860 2013-03-11 16:28:03 <grau> TD: This is an API that runs by a message consumer detached from the kernel.
861 2013-03-11 16:28:18 <helo> if you ask for 10, you'd be aware that the last few confirms could ~easily be undone, but that you can consider it permanent. so you'd not care about it reaching 10 a second time?
862 2013-03-11 16:28:27 <TD> http://plan99.net/~mike/bitcoinj/0.7/index.html?com/google/bitcoin/core/TransactionConfidence.html
863 2013-03-11 16:28:30 <TD> this is the api i'm talking about
864 2013-03-11 16:28:39 <helo> as for 10-deep reorgs... :/
865 2013-03-11 16:28:56 <TD> grau: what does that mean? which thread does it run on? one i have to provide myself?
866 2013-03-11 16:29:18 <TD> grau: also, do you have a wallet? most of the complexity in bitcoinj TransactionConfidence comes from interaction with the wallet.
867 2013-03-11 16:29:41 <TD> if all you do is receive the data, it's not really so bad. it's when you want to start doing things based on that data like creating new spends and broadcasting them that the pain starts :)
868 2013-03-11 16:30:06 <xjrn> td any netty headaches to speak of?
869 2013-03-11 16:30:24 <grau> TD: this is not a single process. The thread that calls the API is coming from a thread pool that listens on a message bus. All requests to the server again go through the bus. Asynchronously.
870 2013-03-11 16:30:43 <TD> netty 3.x has a really bizarre and confusing API too, which doesn't help. netty 4 looks a lot better but it's in beta
871 2013-03-11 16:31:04 <TD> grau: ok so the listeners do have to be thread safe, yeah
872 2013-03-11 16:31:14 <grau> Wallet for me is a constuctor of keys. not more.
873 2013-03-11 16:32:14 <grau> Listeners are serial per topic.
874 2013-03-11 16:32:50 <TD> that's not really how wallets work. they need to store transactions and create spends with them too
875 2013-03-11 16:32:53 <grau> The real API is a subscription and publish protocol on a bus, the Java classes are just convinience wrapper
876 2013-03-11 16:33:10 <grau> no they do not
877 2013-03-11 16:33:27 <TD> how do you make a spend then?
878 2013-03-11 16:33:27 <grau> this is just how yours nd satoshis work
879 2013-03-11 16:34:04 <grau> You query UTXO to know what you can spend.
880 2013-03-11 16:34:18 <HM> yeah
881 2013-03-11 16:34:42 <HM> send a script filter over and have the service select the transactions
882 2013-03-11 16:34:43 <TD> xjrn: i guess one minor annoyance is there doesn't seem to be any way to suspend the IO threads from processing things. not that it's a big deal. it'd be nice to have though.
883 2013-03-11 16:35:15 <HM> so the main API deals in transactions and scripts and the wallet api abstracts over the top, only knowing about a few script forms?
884 2013-03-11 16:35:16 <xjrn> TD see pm. i have that sussed.
885 2013-03-11 16:35:22 <grau> HM: you send a list of adresses and server sends you UTX of them
886 2013-03-11 16:35:36 jaakkos has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
887 2013-03-11 16:35:42 <HM> why does the wallet API need to care about transactions?
888 2013-03-11 16:35:53 <HM> inputs i mean
889 2013-03-11 16:36:12 <HM> a 'wallet' is already a high level abstraction, it should be an idiot api
890 2013-03-11 16:36:22 <HM> imho
891 2013-03-11 16:37:32 <TD> if you assume access to a fully indexed UTXO set then yes, that is one way to do it. quite expensive to maintain though.
892 2013-03-11 16:38:11 <HM> it's not necessarily expensive if you make your index data opaque and pass it over to the wallet subsystem
893 2013-03-11 16:38:25 <grau> TD: yes, it is expensive, not an option for a mobile. But that is not my market either.
894 2013-03-11 16:38:40 <HM> but this is just me philandering, API design *is* hard
895 2013-03-11 16:39:23 <grau> HM: it is. The reason I have not yet announced beta of mine, because I still tune the API as I build on it.
896 2013-03-11 16:41:08 <Happzz> i wonder why anyone thought placing the ip of whoever sends btcs in the blockchain
897 2013-03-11 16:41:17 <Happzz> or is it not in the chain but just broadcasted?
898 2013-03-11 16:41:35 <HM> it's actually a typical stateful server problem. indexes on the utxo set are server state and carry a hefty burden. keeping track of them transactions in your wallet system avoids that but breaks the abstraction
899 2013-03-11 16:41:40 <TD> it's not even broadcasted
900 2013-03-11 16:42:17 <Happzz> so why do people use tor to anonymize bitcoin?
901 2013-03-11 16:42:22 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
902 2013-03-11 16:42:24 jaakkos has joined
903 2013-03-11 16:42:43 <HM> Happzz: no IPs in the blockchain afaik?
904 2013-03-11 16:42:53 <Happzz> HM i'm asking, not saying :o
905 2013-03-11 16:43:22 <TD> blockchain.info connects to lots of nodes and records the IP it sees broadcast first.
906 2013-03-11 16:43:25 <HM> IPs aren't future proof
907 2013-03-11 16:43:27 <TD> sometimes that is actually not inaccurate
908 2013-03-11 16:43:43 <HM> we might all move to meshnets in the future, that don't use IPs :P
909 2013-03-11 16:43:47 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
910 2013-03-11 16:46:57 daybyter has joined
911 2013-03-11 16:47:01 <xjrn> HM: butterfly networks++
912 2013-03-11 16:48:42 <HM> xjrn: never heard of them
913 2013-03-11 16:50:19 <ProfMac> has anyone seen an IPv6 address in the blockchain.info data?
914 2013-03-11 16:51:24 <xjrn> HM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_network_coding
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939 2013-03-11 17:59:34 <Belkaar> If I use "encryptwallet" the client tells me that I need to replace my backups, because they will be made useless. How does this work? Private keys can not be invalidated or am I wrong?
940 2013-03-11 18:00:48 <Luke-Jr> Belkaar: backups are only good for 100 transactions after they're made anyway
941 2013-03-11 18:01:49 <HM> well BitSpend is a scary idea
942 2013-03-11 18:02:37 <Belkaar> Luke-Jr: So I'm guessing the encryption-process deletes all unused keys in the pool?
943 2013-03-11 18:02:57 <Luke-Jr> Belkaar: it marks them as used
944 2013-03-11 18:03:11 <Luke-Jr> Belkaar: the assumption being it's best to avoid using potentially-compromised keys
945 2013-03-11 18:04:18 <Belkaar> I see. The message in the Qt-Client suggests that it's no longer a Problem if an unecrypted wallet backup leaks, because it's useless now.
946 2013-03-11 18:05:51 <Belkaar> But that would only be true if all coins are moved to a fresh address after encryption. Maybe there shoul be an option for that.
947 2013-03-11 18:08:52 free__ is now known as welovecp
948 2013-03-11 18:12:00 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
949 2013-03-11 18:17:50 <gmaxwell> Belkaar: even _if_ you have no funds something must be done with the keypool keys, and doing that invalidates the backups.
950 2013-03-11 18:18:13 <Belkaar> gmaxwell
951 2013-03-11 18:19:07 <Belkaar> gmaxwell: I get that. I'm only concerned about the false sense of security it implies. "Encrypt your wallet and the unencrypted backups are useless (to thieves)"
952 2013-03-11 18:20:04 Lowflow has joined
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954 2013-03-11 18:22:55 <Belkaar> gmaxwell: And that is true for the unused addresses but not for the already used ones containing coins.
955 2013-03-11 18:24:15 alexwaters has joined
956 2013-03-11 18:24:41 <MobGod> gavinandresen you therre
957 2013-03-11 18:26:01 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
958 2013-03-11 18:26:36 <gavinandresen> no, I'm here
959 2013-03-11 18:27:55 <jgarzik> thar he blows, an ump like a snowhill
960 2013-03-11 18:28:42 simon872 has joined
961 2013-03-11 18:29:58 <Luke-Jr> MobGod: I'm there.
962 2013-03-11 18:30:02 <helo> it does seem sensible that the client would offer to send all of your plain privkey coin to an encryption-protected address after encryption is enabled... but i'd bet that's been ruled out already for a good reason.
963 2013-03-11 18:30:24 <MobGod> Luke-Jr where?
964 2013-03-11 18:30:28 <Luke-Jr> MobGod: there!
965 2013-03-11 18:30:41 <MobGod> great
966 2013-03-11 18:30:54 <MobGod> trying to install name coin on my mac
967 2013-03-11 18:31:06 <MobGod> would you be able to provide any help ?
968 2013-03-11 18:31:08 saulimus has joined
969 2013-03-11 18:31:08 <Luke-Jr> MobGod: #namecoin
970 2013-03-11 18:31:13 <MobGod> i'm there
971 2013-03-11 18:31:24 <MobGod> :)
972 2013-03-11 18:31:27 <Luke-Jr> that's where to ask for help
973 2013-03-11 18:31:48 emryss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
974 2013-03-11 18:32:00 <MobGod> i did with not one answer for 10 hours
975 2013-03-11 18:32:10 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
976 2013-03-11 18:32:42 <MobGod> i no gavinandresen runs a mac thats why i was going to ask him
977 2013-03-11 18:32:46 emryss has joined
978 2013-03-11 18:33:10 sgornick_ has joined
979 2013-03-11 18:33:10 <Luke-Jr> MobGod: probably because namecoin is dead
980 2013-03-11 18:33:18 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
981 2013-03-11 18:33:23 <gavinandresen> I don't know nuthin about namecoin
982 2013-03-11 18:33:38 <alexwaters> cosbycoin is where it's at
983 2013-03-11 18:33:49 <MobGod> Luke-Jr why do you feel it's dead
984 2013-03-11 18:34:26 <gavinandresen> I think it is dead because it was an ill-conceived project from the start, but that discussion would be off-topic here
985 2013-03-11 18:34:35 <Luke-Jr> MobGod: you just demonstrated why. and it's off-topic here in any case
986 2013-03-11 18:34:51 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen++
987 2013-03-11 18:34:55 grau has joined
988 2013-03-11 18:35:16 <MobGod> i guess that does make sense :P
989 2013-03-11 18:35:58 ovidiusoft has joined
990 2013-03-11 18:36:34 owowo has joined
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996 2013-03-11 18:41:39 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1000 2013-03-11 18:47:03 bock has joined
1001 2013-03-11 18:47:45 <midnightmagic> namecoin is not quite dead yet.
1002 2013-03-11 18:47:53 <Happzz> it'll be soon
1003 2013-03-11 18:47:57 <Happzz> it's useless.
1004 2013-03-11 18:48:02 <midnightmagic> Happzz: nope.
1005 2013-03-11 18:48:08 fishfish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1006 2013-03-11 18:48:24 fishfish has joined
1007 2013-03-11 18:48:35 <jgarzik> it's still merge-mined by a few big pools. who knows if it's actually used.
1008 2013-03-11 18:48:37 <warren> midnightmagic: if someone updates it to be modern and cleans up the half-outdated website, maybe.
1009 2013-03-11 18:48:46 <warren> also the "registars" are charging 1 BTC? that's a bit much
1010 2013-03-11 18:49:02 <midnightmagic> warren: There is no website.
1011 2013-03-11 18:49:04 <warren> jgarzik: I tried half of the listed domains last week, most are dead
1012 2013-03-11 18:49:15 <warren> midnightmagic: dotbit?
1013 2013-03-11 18:49:16 <K1773R> warren, if you do it yourself it costs like nothing
1014 2013-03-11 18:49:24 <midnightmagic> warren: That is not namecoin's website.
1015 2013-03-11 18:49:38 <K1773R> midnightmagic, dotbit IS namecoin's website
1016 2013-03-11 18:49:47 <midnightmagic> K1773R: Nope.
1017 2013-03-11 18:50:05 <midnightmagic> Vince is gone, there was no website, nor is there.
1018 2013-03-11 18:50:07 <warren> well, whatever the situation is, plenty of reasons why nobody is using it
1019 2013-03-11 18:50:39 zooko is now known as zooko_phone
1020 2013-03-11 18:50:51 <warren> btw, why is it that merge mining works with getwork but not stratum? limitation of the protocol or just implementation?
1021 2013-03-11 18:51:51 <K1773R> you get MM work with the RPC call getworkaux <aux> and since work generation is local in stratum, this wont work
1022 2013-03-11 18:52:13 <K1773R> stratum would have to be adjusted/changed to see it working
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1026 2013-03-11 18:57:54 <jgarzik> stratum just does dumb concatenation, so merged mining seems possible?
1027 2013-03-11 18:58:40 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1028 2013-03-11 18:59:09 <K1773R> yes, but not with the current implementation, it would have to be changed a bit on the server's side
1029 2013-03-11 18:59:17 <K1773R> well, a bit is a underestimation
1030 2013-03-11 18:59:34 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1031 2013-03-11 19:03:20 <jgarzik> as long as stratum mining proxy uses GBT, should be straightforward :)
1032 2013-03-11 19:05:12 fishfish has quit (Quit: Zzzzz..zzzzz)
1033 2013-03-11 19:06:19 alexwaters has left ()
1034 2013-03-11 19:06:24 <sipa> hmm, how acceptable would it be to make bitcoin depend on GMP?
1035 2013-03-11 19:06:36 <Luke-Jr> warren: merged mining works just fine with stratum and GBT
1036 2013-03-11 19:06:56 <warren> Luke-Jr: oh? ok, crappy other implmenetations then.
1037 2013-03-11 19:07:04 <Luke-Jr> K1773R: which implementation? Eloipool does it fine
1038 2013-03-11 19:07:22 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ?
1039 2013-03-11 19:08:08 axhlf has joined
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1041 2013-03-11 19:08:53 <jgarzik> sipa: ?
1042 2013-03-11 19:09:10 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i'm writing a secp256k1 implementations from scratch, and there are a few operations which still need a bignum library; either OpenSSL or GMP can provide those, but GMP is significantly faster
1043 2013-03-11 19:09:23 <jgarzik> Ah, I parsed that as GetMemoryPool
1044 2013-03-11 19:09:28 * Luke-Jr also :p
1045 2013-03-11 19:09:34 <sipa> oh, i mean gnu multiprecision library
1046 2013-03-11 19:09:47 <Luke-Jr> sipa: we already have OpenSSL, and CBigNum?
1047 2013-03-11 19:10:00 <sipa> Luke-Jr: as i said, OpenSSL is slower
1048 2013-03-11 19:10:04 <jgarzik> sipa: do those operations occur outside of 256-bit and 160-bit integers?
1049 2013-03-11 19:10:10 gritcoin has joined
1050 2013-03-11 19:10:18 <jgarzik> RE "there are a few operations which still need a bignum library"
1051 2013-03-11 19:10:48 <sipa> jgarzik: yes
1052 2013-03-11 19:10:59 <sipa> it's operations with scalar coefficients
1053 2013-03-11 19:11:00 emryss has joined
1054 2013-03-11 19:11:11 <sipa> so not field elements (which are modulo 2^256-p)
1055 2013-03-11 19:11:20 <gavinandresen> I've finished my big shutdown cleanup spring cleaning: https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/compare/master...shutdowncleanup
1056 2013-03-11 19:11:36 <gavinandresen> â¦still need to test on Windows before making it a pull request
1057 2013-03-11 19:13:16 Scrat_c has joined
1058 2013-03-11 19:13:27 <sipa> jgarzik, Luke-Jr: hardly an urgent issue - there are other options available like implementing the necessary operations directly so no dependency is needed
1059 2013-03-11 19:13:30 Scrat is now known as Guest88090
1060 2013-03-11 19:13:40 Scrat_c is now known as Scrat
1061 2013-03-11 19:13:58 <sipa> Luke-Jr, Luke-Jr: just wondering whether there are legal/ideological/technological/religious/... oppositions against a GMP dependency
1062 2013-03-11 19:14:02 <jgarzik> sipa: picocoin.git is monitoring your efforts closely ;p
1063 2013-03-11 19:14:24 <jgarzik> sipa: surely it's LGPL'd, so works even with proprietary software
1064 2013-03-11 19:14:30 <sipa> it's LGPL indeed
1065 2013-03-11 19:14:34 <Luke-Jr> sipa: LICENSE="LGPL-3"
1066 2013-03-11 19:14:36 Guest88090 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1067 2013-03-11 19:14:41 <jgarzik> sipa: most of these Younger Kids(tm) seem to not care about licenses, as long as the software works
1068 2013-03-11 19:14:43 <jgarzik> :)
1069 2013-03-11 19:14:44 <Luke-Jr> can't think of any problems
1070 2013-03-11 19:14:51 <sipa> to clarify: best performance on OpenSSL: 165us, best performance on GMP: 136us
1071 2013-03-11 19:15:32 <sipa> that is for a full ECDSA signature check, including pubkey decompression
1072 2013-03-11 19:15:45 <sipa> not including any bitcoin-specific processing like calculating the message hash
1073 2013-03-11 19:15:54 <xjrn> sipa seen https://github.com/MetaScale/nt2 ?
1074 2013-03-11 19:16:05 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1075 2013-03-11 19:16:40 <Luke-Jr> GMP seems to have no dependencies of its own..
1076 2013-03-11 19:16:57 MobiusL has joined
1077 2013-03-11 19:17:55 <Luke-Jr> seems KDE, GCC, and GHC depend on GMP, so it should be a standard part of most OS
1078 2013-03-11 19:18:25 <Luke-Jr> so probably the only real cost is in Windows binary size increase, which IMO doesn't matter much
1079 2013-03-11 19:18:25 <sipa> it's really just one operation for which it matters, modular inversion, and it's only used twice per signature check; but OpenSSL needs 26us for it, and GMP only 3us
1080 2013-03-11 19:18:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: any reason not to submit a patch to OpenSSL to improve it there?
1081 2013-03-11 19:19:41 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that's also an option - i haven't investigated where the performance difference comes from, as both libraries use assembly-based optimized code at several levels
1082 2013-03-11 19:19:59 <sipa> but somehow i like the idea of not depending on OpenSSL...
1083 2013-03-11 19:20:03 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1084 2013-03-11 19:20:13 <fiesh> there's also http://bsdmp.org/, offering a less restrictive license
1085 2013-03-11 19:20:16 <Luke-Jr> well, I imagine removing the OpenSSL dependency is more complicated than just using GMP
1086 2013-03-11 19:20:17 <fiesh> maybe worth checking out how fast it is
1087 2013-03-11 19:20:38 <sipa> Luke-Jr: if we stick to RPC-SSL support, ditching OpenSSL is no option at all
1088 2013-03-11 19:20:51 <Luke-Jr> fiesh: which isn't even packaged in some OS, let alone a standard componentâ¦
1089 2013-03-11 19:20:52 <fiesh> and then there's the original bsd library... what was it called again
1090 2013-03-11 19:20:54 darinmorrison has quit ()
1091 2013-03-11 19:21:02 <warren> Is this stuff for like 0.9?
1092 2013-03-11 19:21:12 <fiesh> Luke-Jr: of course I mean integrating it into the bitcoin source
1093 2013-03-11 19:21:17 <_dr> sipa: did you have a look at http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white-papers/polynomial-multiplication-instructions-paper.pdf?
1094 2013-03-11 19:21:22 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I'm not sure why we even support RPC-SSL considering exposing it to an untrusted network is unsupported/discourage
1095 2013-03-11 19:21:31 <Luke-Jr> fiesh: even worse
1096 2013-03-11 19:21:40 <sipa> warren: who knows; at this point, it's just experimenting
1097 2013-03-11 19:21:52 <xjrn> sipa mguanard and jfalcou on freenode maintain nt2 in #nt2 oddly enough. you'd be able to use headers-only afaik
1098 2013-03-11 19:21:54 <Luke-Jr> although, it looks like BSDMP is a drop-in alternative for GMP, so coding for GMP should work fine
1099 2013-03-11 19:22:07 <warren> sipa: I welcome this very much as Fedora/RHEL lacks ecdsa
1100 2013-03-11 19:22:11 <_dr> they do several karatrusba runs to approximate the 256bit mult with carryless 64bit mult
1101 2013-03-11 19:22:12 <warren> sipa: in openssl
1102 2013-03-11 19:22:36 <warren> hmm, what GNU library is this?
1103 2013-03-11 19:22:55 <Luke-Jr> nevermind, BSDMP makes no sense
1104 2013-03-11 19:22:58 <fiesh> oh, the traditional bsd library is just called libmp
1105 2013-03-11 19:23:07 <sipa> _dr: seems interesting; there are certainly multiple improvements possible still with the field operations
1106 2013-03-11 19:23:21 <fiesh> Luke-Jr: yeah, seems to be not well enough developed, I agree -- I found it accidentally when looking for the original BSD library
1107 2013-03-11 19:23:27 <sipa> warren: i don't feel like being responsible for the entire ECDSA verification stack in bitcoin, so i'm not eager to have this merged without very serious review anyway
1108 2013-03-11 19:23:55 <warren> sipa: you're implementing one embedded in bitcoin itself, or switching to another library?
1109 2013-03-11 19:24:05 JDuke128 has joined
1110 2013-03-11 19:24:17 <fiesh> oh but the current bsd mp implementation just uses openssl, hehe... so no gains there
1111 2013-03-11 19:24:27 <Luke-Jr> lol
1112 2013-03-11 19:24:29 <sipa> warren: at this point, it's even independent of bitcoin; i just started writing an ECDSA implementation specific for secp256k1 from scratch, with all optimizations i know of
1113 2013-03-11 19:24:56 <sipa> warren: and given that it's significantly faster than OpenSSL at this point, it would be nice to take advantage of it
1114 2013-03-11 19:24:58 <_dr> sipa: then have a look at that paper
1115 2013-03-11 19:25:00 zooko_phone is now known as zook
1116 2013-03-11 19:25:28 <_dr> my guess is you won't get faster than the guys at intel, their crytpo library is the fastest since they know their hardware
1117 2013-03-11 19:26:14 <sipa> well, this is for one specific curve
1118 2013-03-11 19:26:16 <xjrn> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Secp256k1 looks like a static eval field-day
1119 2013-03-11 19:26:26 <_dr> they do a clever trick. while they only use a 64bit multiplication, they use the ymm registers to keep the results of the intermedia steps in the 256 bit vector registers
1120 2013-03-11 19:26:31 Hasimir- has joined
1121 2013-03-11 19:27:52 <sipa> _dr: i don't want to go into maintaining our own assembly-optimized versions
1122 2013-03-11 19:28:21 <_dr> also, the carryless instruction is part of aes-ni, which is availabe in all core cpus so you won't have to use a sandy bridge cpu
1123 2013-03-11 19:29:16 Hasimir has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1124 2013-03-11 19:29:30 <_dr> sipa: you can always use intrinsics, but IMO maintaining a well written and documented assembly kernel is doable. you'd only have to write the 'hot' parts in actual assembly
1125 2013-03-11 19:29:46 <sipa> sure, and those are very limited
1126 2013-03-11 19:30:14 <sipa> my current field implementation uses 5 64-bit integers, each holding 52 bits
1127 2013-03-11 19:30:40 <sipa> so no carry is needed to add the result of several multiplications
1128 2013-03-11 19:30:58 <_dr> i think they list their code at the end of the paper, they claim a 6x speedup comparing to openssl 1.0.0a wrt 256 ecdsa signing
1129 2013-03-11 19:31:29 <_dr> no sorry, 6x speedup wrt verification! signing is slower, but who cares ;)
1130 2013-03-11 19:31:35 <sipa> i'm already close to a 5x speedup over OpenSSL :p
1131 2013-03-11 19:31:47 <_dr> wow, very nice
1132 2013-03-11 19:32:17 <sipa> but there are secp256k1-specific optimizations at every level
1133 2013-03-11 19:32:39 <sipa> so that 5x speedup is certainly not (only) because of fast field operations
1134 2013-03-11 19:33:04 <sipa> 5x is exaggerated i think; it's closer to 4x
1135 2013-03-11 19:33:38 whizter has joined
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1137 2013-03-11 19:34:33 <_dr> and once again we see that single-core optimization is worthwhile
1138 2013-03-11 19:34:34 <xjrn> sipa straight c?
1139 2013-03-11 19:34:58 <K1773R> Luke-Jr, didnt know that, ty! gonna check it out :) is it possible to mine on multiple chains or just 1 altchain?
1140 2013-03-11 19:35:48 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1142 2013-03-11 19:36:30 <_dr> and we'll get another boost from HNI once skywell is out. i think they'll actually do 128bit ints
1143 2013-03-11 19:36:51 <sipa> hni?
1144 2013-03-11 19:37:09 <Luke-Jr> K1773R: Eloipool depends on a fork of merged-mining-proxy to handle that all; it should handle unlimited chains so long as you have Eloipool's merkletree.py available to it
1145 2013-03-11 19:37:31 <Luke-Jr> _dr: GCC already has 128-bit ints on some platforms
1146 2013-03-11 19:37:49 <sipa> Luke-Jr: GCC does; hardware doesn't
1147 2013-03-11 19:37:51 <_dr> Luke-Jr: I'm talking about native
1148 2013-03-11 19:38:06 <Luke-Jr> sipa: AFAIK, GCC only provides it when the hardware does - including modern x86
1149 2013-03-11 19:38:13 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no
1150 2013-03-11 19:38:27 <_dr> sipa: AVX2. the documents says The 128-bit numeric processing instructions in AVX cover floating-point and
1151 2013-03-11 19:38:30 <_dr> integer data processing across 128-bit vector and scalar processing
1152 2013-03-11 19:38:30 <sipa> Luke-Jr: the hardware has a 64bit * 64bit multiplication with 2x 64-bit output
1153 2013-03-11 19:38:53 <sipa> Luke-Jr: GCC's __int128 is an aggregate of two 64-bit variables that is needed to capture the output of such an instruction
1154 2013-03-11 19:38:56 <_dr> Luke-Jr: i can assure you there's no support for 128bit mult in hardware yet (unfortunately)
1155 2013-03-11 19:39:21 <sipa> Luke-Jr: but adding two __int128 together for example will be translated to separate additions on separate registers
1156 2013-03-11 19:39:31 <_dr> at least for intel cpus. there may be more exotic architecures that provite it, though
1157 2013-03-11 19:39:50 <Luke-Jr> :<
1158 2013-03-11 19:40:25 <sipa> so in a sense there is an extremely-limited support for 128-bit types in the hardware indeed: namely as the result of a 64-bit * 64-bit multiplication
1159 2013-03-11 19:40:38 HiWEB has joined
1160 2013-03-11 19:42:39 <gmaxwell> It just carries on the same thing i386 had-> a 32x32->64h/l which was also inaccessible in C except via long long... amd64 just scaled up the registers so you got a 64x64->64h/l
1161 2013-03-11 19:44:06 fishfish has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1162 2013-03-11 19:44:28 <_dr> i really wonder why they don't have them though. can't be that hard, can it? avx has 256 bits, but no integer instructions at all
1163 2013-03-11 19:45:41 <Luke-Jr> _dr: AVX2 is supposed to have 256-bit int as well I hear
1164 2013-03-11 19:46:00 hopey has joined
1165 2013-03-11 19:46:05 <gmaxwell> _dr: the avx2 stuff adds all the integer operations, but those are vector registers. The complexity of doing 8 32 bit multiplies is much lower than 2 128 bit ones. :P
1166 2013-03-11 19:46:54 <_dr> yeah I know, but... if you have the large registers, why not offer an instrction that does the 256 bit multiplication in hardware, but slower than a 32/64 bit multiplication
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1169 2013-03-11 19:47:34 <_dr> all these instructions are pipelined, so using a larger operad size would just increase the latency
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1174 2013-03-11 19:54:33 <_dr> sipa: is your code on github?
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1177 2013-03-11 20:03:20 <HM> faster verification is awesome
1178 2013-03-11 20:03:44 <HM> i wonder how well it'd run on arm
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1181 2013-03-11 20:06:59 <ThomasV> can ecdsa be used for message encryption?
1182 2013-03-11 20:07:48 <Luke-Jr> no
1183 2013-03-11 20:08:07 <Luke-Jr> but it could sign a key that is
1184 2013-03-11 20:08:23 <ThomasV> oh: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3098005/is-it-possible-to-use-elliptic-curve-cryptography-for-encrypting-data
1185 2013-03-11 20:08:44 <gmaxwell> the ECC keys we use certantly can be, but thats not ECDSA
1186 2013-03-11 20:09:03 <HM> public key encryption is a matter of some complexity, especially if you want authentication using the same key
1187 2013-03-11 20:09:12 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: yeah, I meant the keys
1188 2013-03-11 20:10:30 <warren> sipa: sorry disappeared earlier, power went out
1189 2013-03-11 20:10:47 <warren> sipa: what's the link again?
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1196 2013-03-11 20:34:07 <sipa> warren, _dr: https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1
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1239 2013-03-11 21:11:37 <_dr> thanks
1240 2013-03-11 21:12:26 jorick_ has joined
1241 2013-03-11 21:17:50 <egecko> ok.. quick query.. what are command line flags to have it read from block chain from one directory and the wallet from a different one? i see -datadir but it looks like block chain and wallet have to be in the same directory, is that correct?
1242 2013-03-11 21:18:18 <weex> yup
1243 2013-03-11 21:18:27 <egecko> bummah!
1244 2013-03-11 21:18:31 <egecko> oh well
1245 2013-03-11 21:21:46 Namworld has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1246 2013-03-11 21:23:44 <sipa_> egecko: symlinks to the rescue
1247 2013-03-11 21:23:49 <rdponticelli1> egecko: Just use a symlink
1248 2013-03-11 21:23:49 welovecp has joined
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1250 2013-03-11 21:23:56 sipa_ is now known as sipa
1251 2013-03-11 21:25:33 <egecko> yeah, that'll get done once this node finishes reindexing the block chain
1252 2013-03-11 21:25:33 eipeace_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1253 2013-03-11 21:25:46 <egecko> anyway to tell when a daemon is done reindexing?
1254 2013-03-11 21:25:54 <egecko> other than watching for the CPU usage to drop?
1255 2013-03-11 21:27:19 RatchetLove has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1260 2013-03-11 21:43:44 <egecko> well at least bitdozer still works with 0.8!
1261 2013-03-11 21:45:44 nick___ has joined
1262 2013-03-11 21:45:49 <nick___> hello
1263 2013-03-11 21:46:09 <sipa> what is bitdozer?
1264 2013-03-11 21:46:16 <nick___> no idea
1265 2013-03-11 21:46:53 <egecko> its a windows client for access bitcoin servers
1266 2013-03-11 21:46:56 <egecko> windows phone
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1269 2013-03-11 21:48:08 <egecko> pretty useful if you wanna send coins from your windows phone :)
1270 2013-03-11 21:48:17 <nick___> anyone have success with the socketio / websockets c# projects on github? i load the examples and it connects but no trade messages are ever sent to my client by the server
1271 2013-03-11 21:48:18 * alexwaters envisions a bulldozer paid for in bitcoin - bulldozing a local bank - because of bitcoin
1272 2013-03-11 21:48:43 HiWEB has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1273 2013-03-11 21:49:23 <nick___> with socketio i never get back confirmation messages that my subscriptions were ack, and i've tried dozens of different types of message formats to try to get a subscription to work
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1313 2013-03-11 22:52:31 <HM> hmm the exchange rate for selling my $ers seems favourable right now
1314 2013-03-11 22:52:46 <HM> (in to £ as well as Bitcoin)
1315 2013-03-11 22:52:58 <HM> err not Bitcoin, just £ :P
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1330 2013-03-11 23:06:45 <Nick___> Hello
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1333 2013-03-11 23:10:35 <Nick___> anyone have any experience using socketIO in c# for the mtGox trade feeds?
1334 2013-03-11 23:11:01 <thermoman> i'm getting invalid chain and "no available lock entries" in db.log
1335 2013-03-11 23:11:09 <thermoman> anyone help?
1336 2013-03-11 23:11:21 <rdponticelli1> Nick___: Maybe ask in #mtgox?
1337 2013-03-11 23:11:32 nowan has joined
1338 2013-03-11 23:11:39 <Nick___> thx rdponticelli1 i'll try that
1339 2013-03-11 23:11:48 CodeShark has joined
1340 2013-03-11 23:12:22 <rdponticelli1> thermoman: Which version?
1341 2013-03-11 23:14:20 <thermoman> rdponticelli1: 0.7.x
1342 2013-03-11 23:14:40 <thermoman> rdponticelli1: 0.7.2
1343 2013-03-11 23:15:22 <rdponticelli1> Have you tried with 0.8?
1344 2013-03-11 23:15:42 <sipa> 0.8 won't have that problem, as it doesn't use BDB for the blockchain anymore
1345 2013-03-11 23:15:58 cheesepi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1346 2013-03-11 23:16:29 <egecko> which flag turns on the debug.log file?
1347 2013-03-11 23:16:35 Nick___ is now known as Crosis
1348 2013-03-11 23:17:01 <sipa> egecko: none; it's standard
1349 2013-03-11 23:17:39 <egecko> hrm... how can i turn it off then?
1350 2013-03-11 23:17:58 rdymac has joined
1351 2013-03-11 23:18:26 <egecko> ah i suppose i could do -printtoconsole
1352 2013-03-11 23:19:12 mcx has joined
1353 2013-03-11 23:19:12 mcx is now known as cheesepi
1354 2013-03-11 23:20:21 kritCoin has joined
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1356 2013-03-11 23:20:33 <kritCoin> why isnt there a windows build manual?
1357 2013-03-11 23:20:35 <kritCoin> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/readme-qt.rst
1358 2013-03-11 23:22:42 <thermoman> sipa, rdponticelli1: can't upgrade production server now :)
1359 2013-03-11 23:22:46 <thermoman> i started with -checkblocks
1360 2013-03-11 23:22:52 <thermoman> Verifying last 225429 blocks at level 1
1361 2013-03-11 23:22:54 <sipa> thermoman: won't help
1362 2013-03-11 23:23:07 <sipa> there's likely nothing wrong with your blocks
1363 2013-03-11 23:24:27 muhoo has joined
1364 2013-03-11 23:25:52 <rdponticelli1> thermoman: Don't you have redundancy on your production setup? ;)
1365 2013-03-11 23:27:03 <thermoman> sipa: some client told my client it (the other host) had 225431 blocks
1366 2013-03-11 23:27:16 <thermoman> but blockexplorer says currently block count is at 225430
1367 2013-03-11 23:27:30 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1368 2013-03-11 23:27:30 <gribble> 225430
1369 2013-03-11 23:27:58 ThomasV has joined
1370 2013-03-11 23:28:23 <thermoman> sipa: this machine has nothing in its wallet.dat ... so could i start the daemon with -detachdb and after stopping i could remove the database/* files, right?
1371 2013-03-11 23:28:27 <thermoman> might this clear the problem?
1372 2013-03-11 23:28:46 <sipa> thermoman: if you delete the entire blockchain db, sure
1373 2013-03-11 23:29:02 <sipa> thermoman: so database/*, blkindex.dat, blk000?.dat
1374 2013-03-11 23:29:15 <sipa> maybe just deleting database/* is enough (though only after -detachdb)
1375 2013-03-11 23:29:56 cheesepi has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1379 2013-03-11 23:32:02 <thermoman> how long will checking these 225429 blocks app. take?
1380 2013-03-11 23:32:33 <sipa> there's no point in doing -checkblocks
1381 2013-03-11 23:32:38 <sipa> just cancel that
1382 2013-03-11 23:32:48 <sipa> the problem is BDB ran out of locks and can't do modifications anymore
1383 2013-03-11 23:32:57 <thermoman> just send kill signal?
1384 2013-03-11 23:32:59 <sipa> yes
1385 2013-03-11 23:33:06 <thermoman> will db files survuve that?
1386 2013-03-11 23:33:22 <sipa> just send kill -TERM
1387 2013-03-11 23:33:27 <sipa> that'll do a graceful exit
1388 2013-03-11 23:33:33 mcx has joined
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1390 2013-03-11 23:33:50 <Crosis> anyone here use socketio to read mtgox trade/ticker data?
1391 2013-03-11 23:34:54 <sipa> Crosis: i use curl; no idea about socketio :)
1392 2013-03-11 23:35:02 <thermoman> sipa: thread renamed to bitcoin-shutoff but still running
1393 2013-03-11 23:35:07 <Scrat> Crosis: gl with that, an exercise in futility. it dies often
1394 2013-03-11 23:35:12 <Scrat> Crosis: use websocket or http api
1395 2013-03-11 23:35:14 <thermoman> ok done
1396 2013-03-11 23:35:18 Canar has joined
1397 2013-03-11 23:35:19 <thermoman> sipa: what now?
1398 2013-03-11 23:35:30 <Crosis> really? kk, i'll stick with html then, i appreciate the info
1399 2013-03-11 23:35:44 <sipa> thermoman: i'd advise you to upgrade to 0.8, but if you want to stick with 0.7.x, feel free :)
1400 2013-03-11 23:36:13 <thermoman> sipa: please give me a hint with 0.7.x
1401 2013-03-11 23:36:16 <thermoman> :)
1402 2013-03-11 23:36:20 <Canar> http://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions -- is it normal to be at ~4k unconfirmed transactions?
1403 2013-03-11 23:36:22 <sipa> have you used -detachdb ?
1404 2013-03-11 23:36:26 <thermoman> yes
1405 2013-03-11 23:36:33 <thermoman> 03/11/13 23:34:56 Flush(true)
1406 2013-03-11 23:36:33 <thermoman> 03/11/13 23:34:56 DBFlush(true) ended 0ms
1407 2013-03-11 23:36:33 <sipa> have a backup of the wallet?
1408 2013-03-11 23:36:34 <thermoman> 03/11/13 23:34:56 Bitcoin exited
1409 2013-03-11 23:36:41 <thermoman> there is nothing in wallet.dat
1410 2013-03-11 23:36:43 <sipa> ok
1411 2013-03-11 23:36:48 <thermoman> it's a proxy-kind of client
1412 2013-03-11 23:36:49 <sipa> delete database/*
1413 2013-03-11 23:36:50 <thermoman> you remember?
1414 2013-03-11 23:36:51 <sipa> and try again
1415 2013-03-11 23:36:55 Shuro has joined
1416 2013-03-11 23:37:01 <thermoman> ok will do
1417 2013-03-11 23:37:17 Shuro is now known as Guest28683
1418 2013-03-11 23:37:26 <sipa> if that doesn't help, wipe all databases and start over i guess; but 0.8 will be way faster in doing so :)
1419 2013-03-11 23:37:45 Guest28683 is now known as Shuro3
1420 2013-03-11 23:38:41 <thermoman> sipa: let's assume it doesn't work and i wipe the database ... downloading all blocks will take some time (days), right?
1421 2013-03-11 23:38:57 <sipa> yes; 0.8 will do it in maybe an hour or so
1422 2013-03-11 23:39:32 <sipa> (and it can reuse the blocks you already have on disk)
1423 2013-03-11 23:41:30 <thermoman> ok this sounds nice
1424 2013-03-11 23:41:32 Crosis has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1425 2013-03-11 23:42:02 <sipa> it depends a lot on CPU and disk though; the last part of the chain is very CPU intensive
1426 2013-03-11 23:42:11 <sipa> and slow I/O will decrease performance a lot too
1427 2013-03-11 23:42:29 <jouke> My 7.2 node only connects to my 8.1 node. when I do a getinfo on the 7.1 client I see an error that I or the other nodes neet to upgrade.
1428 2013-03-11 23:42:36 <jouke> Is that normal behaviour?
1429 2013-03-11 23:42:45 <sipa> jouke: no, probably means its database is corrupted
1430 2013-03-11 23:42:59 <sipa> what does its debug.log say?
1431 2013-03-11 23:43:18 <jouke> Something I could grep?
1432 2013-03-11 23:43:36 <sipa> just paste the last few pages somewhere
1433 2013-03-11 23:43:47 <jouke> A lot of error fetchInputs
1434 2013-03-11 23:44:26 <sipa> can i see? :)
1435 2013-03-11 23:45:56 <jouke> http://pastebin.com/dG9uSVZu
1436 2013-03-11 23:46:24 <jouke> But I allready did a restart of the client
1437 2013-03-11 23:46:26 <sipa> nothing interesting
1438 2013-03-11 23:46:31 DBordello has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1439 2013-03-11 23:46:34 <sipa> find something related to blocks
1440 2013-03-11 23:47:26 <thermoman> 03/11/13 23:46:57 InvalidChainFound: invalid block=00000000000000947452 height=225435 work=853704584879667716864 date=03/11/13 23:22:47
1441 2013-03-11 23:47:37 <sipa> thermoman: some context?
1442 2013-03-11 23:47:53 DBordello has joined
1443 2013-03-11 23:47:59 <thermoman> one moment
1444 2013-03-11 23:48:09 <jouke> http://pastebin.com/jRPpxXZa
1445 2013-03-11 23:48:17 <sipa> thermoman: just find the 10 lines before/after it, or so
1446 2013-03-11 23:48:42 <sipa> jouke: fgrep -i block
1447 2013-03-11 23:49:02 aceat64 has joined
1448 2013-03-11 23:49:23 <thermoman> sipa: http://pastebin.com/u53ud3Sj
1449 2013-03-11 23:49:34 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1450 2013-03-11 23:49:52 <sipa> thermoman: yeah, expected; this is after wiping database/* ?
1451 2013-03-11 23:49:59 <thermoman> sipa: correct
1452 2013-03-11 23:50:13 <sipa> seems something evil happened to your blockdb
1453 2013-03-11 23:50:49 random_cat has joined
1454 2013-03-11 23:50:54 <jouke> http://pastebin.com/1bxuyiiP
1455 2013-03-11 23:51:42 <sipa> jouke: now some context around the UpdateTxIndex failed lines?
1456 2013-03-11 23:52:08 <egecko> ok.. so im 400MB into rebuilding the chain.. time to go get some dinner
1457 2013-03-11 23:52:32 <sipa> jouke: i guess you have the same problem as thermoman
1458 2013-03-11 23:52:58 <jouke> But I didn't do anything.
1459 2013-03-11 23:53:06 <sipa> i didn't claim you did
1460 2013-03-11 23:53:26 <thermoman> sipa: my setup is wan<->bitcoinproxy<->bitcoinclient. the problem with the blockdb occurs on the bitcoinproxy. the clients use -connect=<bitcoinproxyip>. will the 0.7.2 clients still be able to communicate with 0.8.0 as if nothing changed?
1461 2013-03-11 23:53:46 <jouke> Oh, I have the same setup
1462 2013-03-11 23:53:54 <thermoman> jouke: :)
1463 2013-03-11 23:53:59 <jouke> With bitcoinproxy = 0.8
1464 2013-03-11 23:54:14 <thermoman> 0.7.2 here for all 2
1465 2013-03-11 23:54:21 <sipa> jouke: can you give me some context around the UpdateTxIndex lines?
1466 2013-03-11 23:54:53 <thermoman> seems like that 0.7.x is broken now
1467 2013-03-11 23:55:15 <thermoman> when i upgrade the bitcoinproxy to 0.8.0 the next thing that will propably fail is the 0.7.2 client behind it
1468 2013-03-11 23:55:20 <jouke> sipa: how much context?
1469 2013-03-11 23:55:25 D34TH has joined
1470 2013-03-11 23:55:25 D34TH has quit (Changing host)
1471 2013-03-11 23:55:25 D34TH has joined
1472 2013-03-11 23:55:27 <sipa> jouke: 10 lines or so
1473 2013-03-11 23:56:00 <sipa> thermoman: i've considered 0.7 broken from before it was released :)
1474 2013-03-11 23:56:24 <sipa> sorry, that's an exaggeration, but i've been sick of all BDB misery for a long time
1475 2013-03-11 23:56:43 <Luke-Jr> but what about: <sipa> I love bdb, it's the best evar!
1476 2013-03-11 23:56:54 <Luke-Jr> :p jk
1477 2013-03-11 23:57:13 <jouke> http://pastebin.com/SuntMdhJ
1478 2013-03-11 23:57:17 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i'm pretty sure i'd never say that (just judging by the grammar/vocabulary)
1479 2013-03-11 23:57:25 <Luke-Jr> :P
1480 2013-03-11 23:57:45 <thermoman> sipa: the 0.7.2 proxy now says the same as jouke: upgrade required ... etc.
1481 2013-03-11 23:57:53 <Luke-Jr> ERROR: ConnectBlock() : UpdateTxIndex failed
1482 2013-03-11 23:57:55 <Luke-Jr> O.o
1483 2013-03-11 23:57:56 <thermoman> but it did load the 2 blocks and is now at 31
1484 2013-03-11 23:58:07 bwen has joined
1485 2013-03-11 23:58:11 <thermoman> ;;bc,blocks
1486 2013-03-11 23:58:11 <gribble> 225431
1487 2013-03-11 23:58:39 <sipa> jouke: very strange - there's nothing saying what failed
1488 2013-03-11 23:58:43 <sipa> jouke: can you look in db.log?
1489 2013-03-11 23:59:00 <jouke> 00:46 < jouke> But I allready did a restart of the client
1490 2013-03-11 23:59:08 <jouke> That has nothing to do with that?
1491 2013-03-11 23:59:11 <sipa> well it's still failing
1492 2013-03-11 23:59:13 <thermoman> now the "you need to upgrade the client" error message is gone
1493 2013-03-11 23:59:23 <jouke> Lock table is out of available lock entries
1494 2013-03-11 23:59:23 <jouke> Lock table is out of available lock entries
1495 2013-03-11 23:59:23 <jouke> Lock table is out of available lock entries
1496 2013-03-11 23:59:23 <jouke> Lock table is out of available lock entries
1497 2013-03-11 23:59:23 <jouke> Lock table is out of available lock entries
1498 2013-03-11 23:59:25 <jouke> Lock table is out of available lock entries
1499 2013-03-11 23:59:27 <thermoman> hahaha
1500 2013-03-11 23:59:28 <jouke> Lock table is out of available lock entries
1501 2013-03-11 23:59:28 <thermoman> same here!
1502 2013-03-11 23:59:30 <jouke> Lock table is out of available lock entries
1503 2013-03-11 23:59:33 <jouke> Lock table is out of available lock entries
1504 2013-03-11 23:59:35 <jouke> Lock table is out of available lock entries
1505 2013-03-11 23:59:38 <jouke> oops
1506 2013-03-11 23:59:40 <jouke> sorry about that
1507 2013-03-11 23:59:42 <thermoman> jouke: we're in the same boat
1508 2013-03-11 23:59:44 <sipa> ok, same problem
1509 2013-03-11 23:59:57 <sipa> i wonder if there's something that triggered it on the network