1 2013-03-12 00:00:01 <sipa> a large reorg or so
   2 2013-03-12 00:00:11 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
   3 2013-03-12 00:00:12 <gribble> 225431
   4 2013-03-12 00:00:37 vampireb has joined
   5 2013-03-12 00:00:56 <thermoman> could it be that someone tried to sneak a falsified block into the network?
   6 2013-03-12 00:01:02 <sipa> no
   7 2013-03-12 00:01:16 <sipa> but it seems blockexplorer is stuck too...
   8 2013-03-12 00:01:24 <sipa> as i'm on 225439
   9 2013-03-12 00:01:36 <thermoman> because at the time when 225429 was current my debug.log showed a client with block cont 225431 !
  10 2013-03-12 00:02:01 <sipa> Luke-Jr: you running a pre-0.8 client somewhere?
  11 2013-03-12 00:02:14 <Luke-Jr> sipa: yes
  12 2013-03-12 00:02:23 <sipa> no out-of-locks issue?
  13 2013-03-12 00:02:37 <Luke-Jr> 225431
  14 2013-03-12 00:02:39 <Luke-Jr> ;;bc,blocks
  15 2013-03-12 00:02:39 <gribble> 225431
  16 2013-03-12 00:02:43 <Luke-Jr> guess not
  17 2013-03-12 00:02:43 <sipa> blockinfo is also stuck
  18 2013-03-12 00:02:52 <sipa> eh, blockchain.info
  19 2013-03-12 00:03:00 <jouke> "blocks" : 225439,
  20 2013-03-12 00:03:07 <jouke> On my .8 proxy node
  21 2013-03-12 00:03:10 <Luke-Jr> sipa: my client is right before leveldb/ultraprune
  22 2013-03-12 00:03:19 <sipa> Luke-Jr: and you have 225439?
  23 2013-03-12 00:03:32 <sipa> Luke-Jr: looks right
  24 2013-03-12 00:03:35 <Luke-Jr> jouke: err, what? that block doesn't exist
  25 2013-03-12 00:03:43 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I have 225431
  26 2013-03-12 00:03:49 <Luke-Jr> oh, is bc,blocks wrong? :x
  27 2013-03-12 00:03:56 <sipa> yes, blockexplorer seems stuck too
  28 2013-03-12 00:04:14 <Luke-Jr> no errors visible tho..
  29 2013-03-12 00:04:33 <sipa> 2013-03-12 00:00:10 SetBestChain: new best=000000000000015aab28064a4c521d6a5325ff6e251e8ca2edfdfe6cb5bf832c  height=225439  work=853779625563004076992  tx=14269257  date=2013-03-11 23:49:08
  30 2013-03-12 00:04:40 <jgarzik> 225439 here
  31 2013-03-12 00:04:58 <Luke-Jr> my debug.log stopped working, so no idea there
  32 2013-03-12 00:05:24 <sipa> Luke-Jr: look in db.log
  33 2013-03-12 00:05:27 <Luke-Jr> seems it grows to 2 GB then stops :P
  34 2013-03-12 00:05:37 <Luke-Jr> Lock table is out of available lock entries
  35 2013-03-12 00:05:48 <Luke-Jr> so… yay accidental hardfork? :x
  36 2013-03-12 00:06:06 <jouke> Holy crap
  37 2013-03-12 00:06:22 <rdymac> alguien que sepa español?
  38 2013-03-12 00:06:27 <thermoman> set_lk_max_locks 2000
  39 2013-03-12 00:06:27 <thermoman> set_lk_max_lockers 2000
  40 2013-03-12 00:06:28 <thermoman> set_lk_max_objects 2000
  41 2013-03-12 00:06:31 <thermoman> does this help?
  42 2013-03-12 00:06:31 <jgarzik> odd
  43 2013-03-12 00:06:34 <jgarzik> 2013-03-12 00:05:22 received block 00000000000000362b16136f026a99ed5c59c0a4dc99e60fe87c28f3220438d6
  44 2013-03-12 00:06:34 <jgarzik> 2013-03-12 00:05:22 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
  45 2013-03-12 00:06:34 <thermoman> at least at the moment?
  46 2013-03-12 00:06:36 <jgarzik> orphan?
  47 2013-03-12 00:06:44 <jgarzik> no SetBestChain associated log entry
  48 2013-03-12 00:06:46 <Luke-Jr> where is MtGox?
  49 2013-03-12 00:06:48 <Luke-Jr> MagicalTux:
  50 2013-03-12 00:06:57 <MagicalTux> ?
  51 2013-03-12 00:07:07 <Luke-Jr> MagicalTux: is MtGox on the 0.8 or pre-0.8 side of the fork?
  52 2013-03-12 00:07:08 <jgarzik> hmmmm
  53 2013-03-12 00:07:20 <MagicalTux> are we already at the fork's point ?
  54 2013-03-12 00:07:26 <Luke-Jr> MagicalTux: it was an accident.
  55 2013-03-12 00:07:40 <MagicalTux> then it'll be dropped by us
  56 2013-03-12 00:07:45 <Luke-Jr> …
  57 2013-03-12 00:07:49 <Luke-Jr> which side? :P
  58 2013-03-12 00:07:52 <MagicalTux> pre-0.8
  59 2013-03-12 00:08:00 <sipa> MagicalTux: which is your last block?
  60 2013-03-12 00:08:06 <sipa> it seems many (all?) 0.7.x nodes ran out of lock entries, and are stuck
  61 2013-03-12 00:08:21 <Luke-Jr> my immediate concern is, which fork are the majority of miners on?
  62 2013-03-12 00:08:25 <sipa> Luke-Jr: mine too
  63 2013-03-12 00:08:32 <lianj> fork point?
  64 2013-03-12 00:09:15 <sipa> thermoman: that could help, but those numbers seem low
  65 2013-03-12 00:09:19 <MagicalTux> last considered "valid" block is 225427
  66 2013-03-12 00:09:52 <Luke-Jr> MagicalTux: so you're on a 3rd fork? :/
  67 2013-03-12 00:09:55 <MagicalTux> (we mark blocks as "valid" when we have 6 blocks after that)
  68 2013-03-12 00:09:58 <Luke-Jr> oh
  69 2013-03-12 00:10:05 <Luke-Jr> sounds like pre-0.8
  70 2013-03-12 00:10:08 <jgarzik> hrm
  71 2013-03-12 00:10:16 <Luke-Jr> MagicalTux: I'd suggest freezing acceptance after 430 or so
  72 2013-03-12 00:10:18 <jgarzik> so pre-0.8 has 2000-transaction limit?
  73 2013-03-12 00:10:22 <thermoman> sipa: what would you suggest? 10.000 instead?
  74 2013-03-12 00:10:38 <sipa> thermoman: the default 0.7.x code uses is 40000
  75 2013-03-12 00:10:44 <thermoman> ok
  76 2013-03-12 00:10:47 <MagicalTux> I've disabled the import of bitcoin blocks
  77 2013-03-12 00:10:50 <MagicalTux> for now
  78 2013-03-12 00:10:58 <MagicalTux> until this is sorted out
  79 2013-03-12 00:11:01 <jouke> my broken one is at 225429
  80 2013-03-12 00:11:37 <lianj> what should be last one?
  81 2013-03-12 00:11:49 <jouke> Two other .8 nodes are at 225439
  82 2013-03-12 00:11:50 Eleuthria has joined
  83 2013-03-12 00:12:30 <lianj> 225438 being 000000000000019881625f04eac2046512fa1e1bd7193f56f39595d802bbbd04 ?
  84 2013-03-12 00:13:00 <sipa> i'm mailing bitcoin-dev
  85 2013-03-12 00:13:05 <lianj> 225439 -> 000000000000015aab28064a4c521d6a5325ff6e251e8ca2edfdfe6cb5bf832c ?
  86 2013-03-12 00:13:15 <thermoman> should be stop our bitcoinproxy nodes?
  87 2013-03-12 00:13:28 <thermoman> we are at 225432
  88 2013-03-12 00:13:29 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I'm trying to contact poolops
  89 2013-03-12 00:13:52 <Luke-Jr> thermoman: this problem is bigger than just you; just don't trust confirmations at this point IMO
  90 2013-03-12 00:13:55 <MC1984_> wow
  91 2013-03-12 00:14:26 <jouke> lianj: stupid question, how do I check that?
  92 2013-03-12 00:14:58 <lianj> grep for SetBestChain in the logs
  93 2013-03-12 00:15:23 <jouke> getblockchash
  94 2013-03-12 00:15:32 <PRab> jouke: or getblock 000000000000019881625f04eac2046512fa1e1bd7193f56f39595d802bbbd04
  95 2013-03-12 00:15:43 <jouke> My hashes correspond to yours lianj
  96 2013-03-12 00:15:57 <GMP> reorg! my custom node jumper straight to 225439
  97 2013-03-12 00:16:02 <lianj> jouke: lets hope thats a yay then :)
  98 2013-03-12 00:16:02 <GMP> jumped
  99 2013-03-12 00:16:19 <lianj> GMP: same here
 100 2013-03-12 00:16:57 <lianj> now i got 00000000000000362b16136f026a99ed5c59c0a4dc99e60fe87c28f3220438d6 as orphan
 101 2013-03-12 00:17:48 <jgarzik> 2013-03-12 00:17:18 received block 0000000000000040fcdf075576b52f2f83d852e4f356936645bcb4e745c94e15
 102 2013-03-12 00:17:48 <jgarzik> 2013-03-12 00:17:18 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
 103 2013-03-12 00:18:12 thepok has joined
 104 2013-03-12 00:18:14 Vinnie_win has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 105 2013-03-12 00:18:15 <thepok> man
 106 2013-03-12 00:18:27 <thepok> 400k waiting transactions and the last block includes 6?
 107 2013-03-12 00:18:31 <thepok> 4k
 108 2013-03-12 00:18:52 <jgarzik> 1266 transactions waiting, here (on the longer fork)
 109 2013-03-12 00:18:57 <thepok> if we dont allow small transactions, we shouldnt allow empty blocks too :(
 110 2013-03-12 00:18:57 <jgarzik> 0.8
 111 2013-03-12 00:19:02 <jouke> :o
 112 2013-03-12 00:19:02 <MC1984_> this seems bad?
 113 2013-03-12 00:19:17 <jouke> blockchain.info has a "new" block @ 225433
 114 2013-03-12 00:19:18 <Eleuthria> "seems" is putting it lightly
 115 2013-03-12 00:19:19 <thepok> forking going on?
 116 2013-03-12 00:19:24 <gavinandresen> do we know if it is just v0.7 affected, or is it 0.7 and earlier ?
 117 2013-03-12 00:19:35 <thepok> omg whats happening?
 118 2013-03-12 00:19:39 <thepok> where can i read more?
 119 2013-03-12 00:19:47 * thermoman is at 225433 too. it seems blockchain.info is using 0.7.x too
 120 2013-03-12 00:19:56 <sipa> we have a full fork
 121 2013-03-12 00:20:05 cyphase has joined
 122 2013-03-12 00:20:08 <MC1984_> oh fuck
 123 2013-03-12 00:20:13 <Luke-Jr> sipa: full?
 124 2013-03-12 00:20:15 <sipa> gavinandresen: no reason to assume anything below 0.7 isn't affected
 125 2013-03-12 00:20:19 <Luke-Jr> sipa: 0.8 will reject old blocks?
 126 2013-03-12 00:20:20 Vinnie_win has joined
 127 2013-03-12 00:20:22 <sipa> Luke-Jr: as in, both sides being mined
 128 2013-03-12 00:20:30 Phraust has joined
 129 2013-03-12 00:20:32 <doublec> my pool is stuck too
 130 2013-03-12 00:20:36 <PRab> thepok: an email was just sent out to the development mailing list.
 131 2013-03-12 00:20:38 <Luke-Jr> sipa: seems to me the best short-term fix is to get miners off 0.8
 132 2013-03-12 00:20:46 <Luke-Jr> but at least 38% is on 0.8 right now
 133 2013-03-12 00:20:51 <doublec> runnong 0.7.2
 134 2013-03-12 00:20:52 <Luke-Jr> otoh, that 38% is actively reachable
 135 2013-03-12 00:21:10 <lianj> Luke-Jr: why did .8 create a forked chain?
 136 2013-03-12 00:21:12 <PRab> does it make sense to shut down .8 nodes?
 137 2013-03-12 00:21:31 <sipa> lianj: miners increases maximum block size; it seems old nodes break on too large blocks
 138 2013-03-12 00:21:37 <Luke-Jr> PRab: I think so
 139 2013-03-12 00:21:49 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: sipa: jgarzik: can we get a consensus on recommendation for miners to downgrade?
 140 2013-03-12 00:21:57 <lianj> sipa: increased to what? what was it before?
 141 2013-03-12 00:22:14 genbtc has joined
 142 2013-03-12 00:22:18 <gavinandresen> the 0.8 fork is longer, yes?  So majority hashpower is 0.8....
 143 2013-03-12 00:22:27 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: but 0.8 fork is not compatible
 144 2013-03-12 00:22:28 <Eleuthria> 0.8 is 6 blocks ahead
 145 2013-03-12 00:22:37 <genbtc> 225450
 146 2013-03-12 00:22:40 <Luke-Jr> earlier will be accepted by all versions
 147 2013-03-12 00:22:42 <genbtc> 225440*
 148 2013-03-12 00:22:46 <gavinandresen> first rule of bitcoin: majority hashpower wins
 149 2013-03-12 00:22:47 TBZ1-SanDiego has joined
 150 2013-03-12 00:22:53 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: if we go with 0.8, we are hardforking
 151 2013-03-12 00:22:56 <sipa> Luke-Jr, gavinandresen, Luke-Jr: the forking action is a too large block - if we ask miners to switch temporarily to smaller blocks again, we should get to a single chain soon
 152 2013-03-12 00:23:19 <sipa> with a majority of miners on small blocks, there is no risk
 153 2013-03-12 00:23:22 <genbtc> how large was the large block? beyond a meg ?
 154 2013-03-12 00:23:26 <Eleuthria> The pre-0.8 will never accept the post-0.8 chain will they?
 155 2013-03-12 00:23:28 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: majority hashpower has never ruled on a hardfork before
 156 2013-03-12 00:23:31 <Eleuthria> So it wouldn't converge.
 157 2013-03-12 00:23:31 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
 158 2013-03-12 00:23:32 <sipa> Eleuthria: indeed
 159 2013-03-12 00:23:47 <Luke-Jr> there is no precedent to this
 160 2013-03-12 00:23:47 <sipa> Eleuthria: except pre-0.8 with manually increased lock sizes
 161 2013-03-12 00:24:04 <jrmithdobbs> ouch that's nasty
 162 2013-03-12 00:24:29 <sipa> and i disagree with majority hashpower wins; this is a hardfork - just a majority isn't enough
 163 2013-03-12 00:24:40 <Luke-Jr> so it's either 1) lose 6 blocks, or 2) hardfork for no benefit
 164 2013-03-12 00:24:48 <Eleuthria> We'll lose more than 6
 165 2013-03-12 00:24:58 <Eleuthria> The chains are 6 different in size
 166 2013-03-12 00:25:04 <Eleuthria> But didn't they fork much earlier than this?
 167 2013-03-12 00:25:05 <sipa> all old miners will stick to their own chain, regardless of the mining power behind the other
 168 2013-03-12 00:25:06 <Luke-Jr> and the sooner we decide on #1, the fewer it loses
 169 2013-03-12 00:25:22 defekt has joined
 170 2013-03-12 00:25:29 sl1982-Desktop has joined
 171 2013-03-12 00:25:31 <Luke-Jr> ideally before 100 blocks IMO
 172 2013-03-12 00:25:34 <sipa> i don't think we can risk this
 173 2013-03-12 00:25:47 <Luke-Jr> sipa: either way is a risk
 174 2013-03-12 00:26:00 <sipa> even with 90% of mining power on 0.8, all merchants on an old client will be vulnerable
 175 2013-03-12 00:26:00 <genbtc> what about miners who have left their shit unattended forever, how will they even know they have to do something new
 176 2013-03-12 00:26:02 <Luke-Jr> if we hardfork, all Bitcoin service providers have an emergency situation
 177 2013-03-12 00:26:19 <Luke-Jr> genbtc: not our problem IMO
 178 2013-03-12 00:26:24 <sipa> the only sane choice is making a chain that we know now everyone accepts
 179 2013-03-12 00:26:31 <Eleuthria> The fork happened at 225430
 180 2013-03-12 00:26:39 <sipa> Eleuthria: i think there may be several forks
 181 2013-03-12 00:26:53 <Eleuthria> 0.6 bitcoind on two of my servers show hash of 225430 as 00000000000001c108384350f74090433e7fcf79a606b8e797f065b130575932
 182 2013-03-12 00:26:59 <Eleuthria> 0.8 nodes show it as 000000000000015c50b165fcdd33556f8b44800c5298943ac70b112df480c023
 183 2013-03-12 00:27:01 deego has joined
 184 2013-03-12 00:27:10 johnsoft has joined
 185 2013-03-12 00:27:17 <MagicalTux>     "blocks" : 225433,
 186 2013-03-12 00:27:29 <etotheipi_> is this really a fork?  if the client is running out of "lock" entries, doesn't that mean no new blocks can be accepted, not any chain?
 187 2013-03-12 00:27:36 <etotheipi_> (sorry, jumping in late, here)
 188 2013-03-12 00:27:40 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: it's only for a 0.8-made block
 189 2013-03-12 00:27:45 <sipa> etotheipi_: the locks are only held per-block-connection
 190 2013-03-12 00:27:54 <sipa> etotheipi_: so it's just "too large" blocks that are rejected
 191 2013-03-12 00:28:05 ThickAsThieves has joined
 192 2013-03-12 00:28:06 <genbtc> so how large WAS the forking block
 193 2013-03-12 00:28:06 <sipa> gavinandresen, Luke-Jr, jgarzik, MagicalTux, Eleuthria: i don't think we can choose the 0.8 fork at this point, there is too much risk
 194 2013-03-12 00:28:10 <etotheipi_> what's "too large"?
 195 2013-03-12 00:28:11 <Eleuthria> Rolling back to pre-0.8 seems to be the right solution.
 196 2013-03-12 00:28:14 <deego> If I delete (corrupted file, for some reasn) blk0003.dat, but keep the other blk* files, will my client re-construct it? Or, do I need to delete all the files the blk* ?
 197 2013-03-12 00:28:20 paybitcoin has joined
 198 2013-03-12 00:28:35 <sipa> deego: you'll need a -reindex after that, but that will work
 199 2013-03-12 00:28:36 <genbtc> you can -reindex
 200 2013-03-12 00:28:40 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I agree, hoping gavinandresen didn't disappear on us ..
 201 2013-03-12 00:28:46 <sipa> deego: also, do just a -reindex, without deleting the file
 202 2013-03-12 00:28:51 <gavinandresen> I'm here, just thinking….
 203 2013-03-12 00:29:08 <deego> sipa, genbtc: Thanks. sipa: Without deleting? It wouldn't even cp to another file. Input/output error. :(
 204 2013-03-12 00:29:10 <jgarzik> indeed, what's "too large"
 205 2013-03-12 00:29:12 <HM> I say alert the exchanges and the likes of Bitpay immediately
 206 2013-03-12 00:29:15 <jgarzik> we need to identify the triggering conditions
 207 2013-03-12 00:29:15 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
 208 2013-03-12 00:29:16 <sipa> gavinandresen: there was an implicit rule "no too large blocks"; we widened the rule with 0.8 apparently
 209 2013-03-12 00:29:22 <jgarzik> we have had > 400k blocks before
 210 2013-03-12 00:29:26 <MagicalTux> [09:28:59] <HM> I say alert the exchanges and the likes of Bitpay immediately <- we already disabled import of new blocks at MtGox
 211 2013-03-12 00:29:27 <jgarzik> and testnet has seen max size
 212 2013-03-12 00:29:31 <jgarzik> it's not just "big block"
 213 2013-03-12 00:29:35 <jgarzik> it is some other condition
 214 2013-03-12 00:29:37 Necrathex has joined
 215 2013-03-12 00:30:01 <sipa> this is literally a hardforking condition: something is allowed on new code that wasn't on old code
 216 2013-03-12 00:30:08 paybitcoin1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 217 2013-03-12 00:30:10 brimstone has joined
 218 2013-03-12 00:30:13 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: that's something we can look into after we resolve the mining IMO
 219 2013-03-12 00:30:20 <Scrat> might be relevant: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152004.0
 220 2013-03-12 00:30:22 <sipa> and we _cannot_ get every bitcoin user in the world to now instantly switch to 0.8
 221 2013-03-12 00:30:23 <HM> what block caused the fork
 222 2013-03-12 00:30:31 <sipa> so no, we need to rollback to the 0.7 chain
 223 2013-03-12 00:30:37 <jgarzik> sipa: we did not fork before on large blocks
 224 2013-03-12 00:30:42 <lianj> which bitcoin git commit is in question?
 225 2013-03-12 00:30:44 <jgarzik> sipa: so what was special about the block in question?
 226 2013-03-12 00:30:45 <Eleuthria> Working on rolling back BTC Guild to 0.7 now.
 227 2013-03-12 00:30:48 <genbtc> 225430
 228 2013-03-12 00:31:02 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ya, sounds like that change needs to be reverted in the .8 tree, like *now*, and everyone who *has* already upgraded needs to be encouraged to do so again
 229 2013-03-12 00:31:03 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: 998,081 byte, 1700+ transaction block
 230 2013-03-12 00:31:10 <Eleuthria> I absolutely agree, there is no way the 0.8 chain can continue in this situation.  An involuntary hardfork doesn't gain legitimacy due to majority.
 231 2013-03-12 00:31:23 <Graet> ozcoin wont even get looked at for an hour or so
 232 2013-03-12 00:31:24 <cyphase> so they forked at 225430? just to be clear
 233 2013-03-12 00:31:26 <sipa> jgarzik: whatever triggered it (be it large block or some other property), it is something that 0.8 allows and 0.7 doesn't
 234 2013-03-12 00:31:29 <jrmithdobbs> also, if this isn't an alert message scenario I don't know what is, where's that at? :)
 235 2013-03-12 00:31:33 <Graet> no-one is avalable and i need to take kids to school
 236 2013-03-12 00:31:39 <jgarzik> alert is definitely needed
 237 2013-03-12 00:31:40 <jgarzik> here
 238 2013-03-12 00:31:41 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: we can't just revert back to BDB
 239 2013-03-12 00:31:42 <gavinandresen> this is definitely an alert message scenario
 240 2013-03-12 00:31:47 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: aware
 241 2013-03-12 00:31:49 <gavinandresen> … just have to decide what to say first
 242 2013-03-12 00:31:58 <sipa> and it is BDB that implicitly defined a condition for us
 243 2013-03-12 00:32:02 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i'm saying the larger txn limit or whatever is determined to have caused the fork
 244 2013-03-12 00:32:02 <sipa> (or our config of it)
 245 2013-03-12 00:32:03 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, 0.7 clients are already displaying a big scary warning
 246 2013-03-12 00:32:03 <gwillen> If we don't even understand _what_ the triggering condition is, it seems like a rollback is the only sensible response.
 247 2013-03-12 00:32:19 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: it's only critical for miners IMO
 248 2013-03-12 00:32:19 <phantomcircuit> Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
 249 2013-03-12 00:32:21 kriqCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 250 2013-03-12 00:32:29 <phantomcircuit> unfortunately i suspect that warning will get people to upgrade
 251 2013-03-12 00:32:36 <deego> heh, I almost did. :)
 252 2013-03-12 00:32:37 canoon has joined
 253 2013-03-12 00:32:41 <phantomcircuit> which isn't necessarily the best thing
 254 2013-03-12 00:32:44 <Luke-Jr> hmm, except we have 6 confirms on an invalid block
 255 2013-03-12 00:32:48 <sipa> we need to get a majority of miners on "small blocks" again (whatever small blocks means; it must be what 0.7 accepts)
 256 2013-03-12 00:32:50 <MagicalTux> [09:31:36] <gavinandresen> … just have to decide what to say first <- decide what to do too, keep pre-0.8 (likely most successful) or not
 257 2013-03-12 00:32:54 eennaam has joined
 258 2013-03-12 00:33:02 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: for alert, I'd focus on the end-user issue of potentially false confirms
 259 2013-03-12 00:33:13 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: from what i've read it's somewhere between 1 and 4k? (base10) ?
 260 2013-03-12 00:33:25 <jrmithdobbs> but we don't know what the artificial bdb limit was?
 261 2013-03-12 00:33:32 <GMP> form my point of view, _very_ old code (0.5) reorg just fine to the longest chain, SetBestChain: new best=000000000000015c50b1  height=225430,  it just take time to connect to correct node
 262 2013-03-12 00:33:42 <lianj> if a rollback happens, which git commit is rolled back?
 263 2013-03-12 00:33:44 TuxBlackEdo has joined
 264 2013-03-12 00:33:52 <cyphase> will all transactions since the fork be integrated into the chain once everything is settled?
 265 2013-03-12 00:33:53 <gwillen> Will transactions that become dead due to a rollback be automatically re-mined? Or will they need to be resubmitted? And if the latter, can the community do that in some automated fashion?
 266 2013-03-12 00:33:57 <MC1984_> well im finally gonna see a bitcoin alert i suppose
 267 2013-03-12 00:34:02 senseless has joined
 268 2013-03-12 00:34:03 <jrmithdobbs> lianj: there's not one to just rollback, like sipa said, since undoing it would mean reverting to bdb
 269 2013-03-12 00:34:11 <jrmithdobbs> lianj: which is a "not gonna happen" scenario
 270 2013-03-12 00:34:13 <senseless> Why is it whenever i upgrade bitcoin on linux my wallet goes ape shit?
 271 2013-03-12 00:34:15 <sipa> the triggering block seems to have affected over 5000 transaction index entries
 272 2013-03-12 00:34:17 GoWest has joined
 273 2013-03-12 00:34:19 <Luke-Jr> where can ozcoin get 0.7 Ubuntu deb/
 274 2013-03-12 00:34:20 <Luke-Jr> ?
 275 2013-03-12 00:34:26 <johnsoft> is there a bitcointalk thread that can get me up to speed on this?
 276 2013-03-12 00:34:32 <jgarzik> hrm
 277 2013-03-12 00:34:33 <senseless> it's like I dont even want to upgrade any more because everytime i have issues about all of my coins disappearing
 278 2013-03-12 00:34:41 <jgarzik> and how to tell bitcoind "mine on $this old fork"
 279 2013-03-12 00:34:56 <lianj> jrmithdobbs: oh, damn. anyhow please keep us guys updated which code change is made to solve the problem. our custom node does .8 behavior
 280 2013-03-12 00:35:18 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: exactly.  Even if we want to roll back to the 0.7-compatible chain, I don't see an easy way to do that.
 281 2013-03-12 00:35:43 brson has joined
 282 2013-03-12 00:35:46 <phantomcircuit> hmm the big scary warning disappears
 283 2013-03-12 00:36:00 <sipa> gavinandresen: you cannot chooise a fork now which some unaware people will not accept
 284 2013-03-12 00:36:02 aethero has joined
 285 2013-03-12 00:36:14 <johnsoft> or, any reference or summary at all anywhere?
 286 2013-03-12 00:36:15 cheesepi has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 287 2013-03-12 00:36:18 <etotheipi_> can't you fork back one block before and re-mine
 288 2013-03-12 00:36:23 <gavinandresen> sipa: they'll all get the big scary "you man need to upgrade" warning, which is exactly true.
 289 2013-03-12 00:36:28 <jgarzik> sure you can
 290 2013-03-12 00:36:50 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: miners on 0.7 automatically does the rollbackj
 291 2013-03-12 00:36:54 stick` has joined
 292 2013-03-12 00:37:01 <jrmithdobbs> I still think an alert message should be sent now to make .8 users aware that there *is* an issue
 293 2013-03-12 00:37:06 <jrmithdobbs> and to not trust txns right now
 294 2013-03-12 00:37:12 grapevine has joined
 295 2013-03-12 00:37:14 <sipa> even just asking miners to set their block sizes lower again will solve the problem
 296 2013-03-12 00:37:25 <Graet> lower than what?
 297 2013-03-12 00:37:26 sashman has joined
 298 2013-03-12 00:37:27 King_DuckZ has joined
 299 2013-03-12 00:37:30 <sipa> wait, that's not true
 300 2013-03-12 00:37:34 <holorga> johnsoft: this is the only info afaik http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=30587843
 301 2013-03-12 00:37:36 <gavinandresen> sipa: how does that solve the problem?  the 0.7 nodes are still stuck
 302 2013-03-12 00:37:39 <Eleuthria> There is no converging of these chains.
 303 2013-03-12 00:37:40 <sipa> not if the majority is on 0.8
 304 2013-03-12 00:37:57 <Eleuthria> Unless pools roll back to 0.7
 305 2013-03-12 00:38:04 <sipa> so the only immediately solution is having a majority of pools switch back to 0.7
 306 2013-03-12 00:38:11 tahnok has joined
 307 2013-03-12 00:38:14 <sipa> bah bah bah
 308 2013-03-12 00:38:24 <K1773R> how about a warning on BTCtalk?
 309 2013-03-12 00:38:34 <Luke-Jr> FWIW, Josh (EclipseMC) has to be on a plane in 20 minutes, so he needs this decided before then :/
 310 2013-03-12 00:38:44 <HM> is switching people back to 0.7 any easier than switching back to 0.8? presumably the upgrade path is better tested
 311 2013-03-12 00:38:53 <Luke-Jr> (EMC is currently 0.6)
 312 2013-03-12 00:38:53 <senseless> So whats the issue?
 313 2013-03-12 00:39:01 <senseless> I got the warning you need to upgrade. So I upgraded.
 314 2013-03-12 00:39:03 <K1773R> HM: should be easy if you didnt delete the old blockchain
 315 2013-03-12 00:39:04 <Graet> switching back will be pain, and will it actually solve anything?
 316 2013-03-12 00:39:13 <Luke-Jr> Graet: it will converge
 317 2013-03-12 00:39:15 <Eleuthria> Switching back would put 0.8 users back on the 0.7 chain
 318 2013-03-12 00:39:16 Namworld has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 319 2013-03-12 00:39:19 <gavinandresen> Going backwards is the wrong thing to do, in my opinion
 320 2013-03-12 00:39:20 <Eleuthria> Once the 0.7 chain surpasses 0.8
 321 2013-03-12 00:39:20 <genbtc> a couple blocks just got mined that had literally 5 and 6 transactions in them
 322 2013-03-12 00:39:30 <lianj> Eleuthria: miners switching to 0.7 that is
 323 2013-03-12 00:39:31 <sipa> yes, as 0.8 accepts the 0.7 chain but not the other way around
 324 2013-03-12 00:39:36 <genbtc> but slush just mined a 444KB block that was fine
 325 2013-03-12 00:39:41 <genbtc> how can that be ?
 326 2013-03-12 00:39:49 Guest2131 has joined
 327 2013-03-12 00:39:49 <thermoman> should we shutdown 0.7.2 clients are a precautionary measure? <----- ?
 328 2013-03-12 00:39:50 <jgarzik> 500k blocks have appeared before
 329 2013-03-12 00:39:52 discretefx has joined
 330 2013-03-12 00:39:54 <jrmithdobbs> slush uses custom code iirc
 331 2013-03-12 00:39:55 <jrmithdobbs> that's how
 332 2013-03-12 00:39:58 <K1773R> Luke-Jr, which blocks (blockhashes or #) are the problems?
 333 2013-03-12 00:39:59 <jgarzik> it's just the 900k block
 334 2013-03-12 00:40:04 elgrecoFL has joined
 335 2013-03-12 00:40:05 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: no, just a knob
 336 2013-03-12 00:40:07 <sipa> jgarzik: have we seen a block which affected 5000 transaction index entries?
 337 2013-03-12 00:40:07 <genbtc> ok
 338 2013-03-12 00:40:18 <jgarzik> sipa: I don't think so
 339 2013-03-12 00:40:25 vbuterin has joined
 340 2013-03-12 00:40:26 <gavinandresen> If we go back to 0.7, then we risk some other block triggering the same condition.
 341 2013-03-12 00:40:34 <jgarzik> sipa: clearly it's a too large bdb transaction
 342 2013-03-12 00:40:42 gyver has joined
 343 2013-03-12 00:40:43 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: rather than going backwards, it's a temporary solution to a bug in 0.8's block acceptance rules IMO
 344 2013-03-12 00:40:50 <Luke-Jr> (and block creation)
 345 2013-03-12 00:40:51 evoorhees has joined
 346 2013-03-12 00:40:53 <gavinandresen> The bug is clearly in 0.7.
 347 2013-03-12 00:40:58 <lianj> K1773R: https://coinbase.com/network/blocks see main and side, main is from .8 view
 348 2013-03-12 00:41:16 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: no, the bug is in .8 because of unforseen consequences of removing bdb
 349 2013-03-12 00:41:23 <jrmithdobbs> pretty much the definition of a regression right here
 350 2013-03-12 00:41:25 <sipa> agree with jrmithdobbs
 351 2013-03-12 00:41:25 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: it's a bitcoin rule we didn't know about
 352 2013-03-12 00:41:27 <johnsoft> holorga: thanks
 353 2013-03-12 00:41:34 <gwillen> jrmithdobbs: the bug is in 0.7 if it was possible to trigger before, and it just happened not to
 354 2013-03-12 00:41:35 <sipa> the active nodes define the rules of the network
 355 2013-03-12 00:41:39 <gwillen> jrmithdobbs: which I think is what gavinandresen is asserting
 356 2013-03-12 00:41:52 MC-Droid has joined
 357 2013-03-12 00:41:56 <jgarzik> That's the rub... it was possible to trigger this bug before
 358 2013-03-12 00:42:01 <jgarzik> remote exploit
 359 2013-03-12 00:42:02 <gyver> Note that the 0.8 miners are largely ahead
 360 2013-03-12 00:42:06 <K1773R> Luke-Jr, ty
 361 2013-03-12 00:42:09 <jrmithdobbs> there just weren't any miners running code that would trigger it before
 362 2013-03-12 00:42:09 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: but it wouldn't be considered a bug
 363 2013-03-12 00:42:16 <sipa> the bug was possible to trigger before, but it couldn't lead to a fork
 364 2013-03-12 00:42:19 discrete has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 365 2013-03-12 00:42:27 <gyver> 0.7: 227435, 0.8: 227440
 366 2013-03-12 00:42:28 <Luke-Jr> gyver: but pre-0.8 nodes will never accept it because it's invalid
 367 2013-03-12 00:42:29 <sipa> as such, there was no hardforking bug in 0.7
 368 2013-03-12 00:42:33 <Shuro3> Yay, two fronts, 0.7 is the problem and 0.8 is the problem
 369 2013-03-12 00:42:40 ripper has joined
 370 2013-03-12 00:42:43 <thermoman> Shuro3: lol
 371 2013-03-12 00:42:47 <PRab> Does anyone know which chain bitcoinj followed?
 372 2013-03-12 00:42:55 <Luke-Jr> PRab: BitcoinJ isn't a full node
 373 2013-03-12 00:43:00 <sipa> PRab: it doesn't do validation; it doesn't care
 374 2013-03-12 00:43:01 <K1773R> ouch, thats a huge disaster, i can see the BTC price droping already :S
 375 2013-03-12 00:43:03 <gyver> Luke-Jr: good luck convincing the majority of miners reverting and losing income
 376 2013-03-12 00:43:12 <jrmithdobbs> ya, there was an unknown limitation in .7 (which wouldn't lead to a bad situation by itself) which .8 accidentally fixed and the change just happens to hard fork
 377 2013-03-12 00:43:15 <sipa> it uses the longest chain visible
 378 2013-03-12 00:43:25 <Luke-Jr> gyver: Eleuthria is here right now
 379 2013-03-12 00:43:32 Sabbe has joined
 380 2013-03-12 00:43:42 <Eleuthria> I can single handedly put 0.7 back to the majority hash power
 381 2013-03-12 00:43:53 <Eleuthria> I just need confirmation that thats what should be done
 382 2013-03-12 00:43:55 Bbbbb has joined
 383 2013-03-12 00:43:59 <genbtc> holy shit.... block 225430 = Bits	436459339, isnt that 54 MEGS?
 384 2013-03-12 00:44:10 <sipa> Eleuthria: imho, that is was you should do, but we should have consensus first
 385 2013-03-12 00:44:12 <DBordello> I have a service that accepts bitcoins, I don't want to end up on the wrong side of a split.  I am on 0.70.  what is the safest route?
 386 2013-03-12 00:44:13 <gyver> Eleuthria: that would remove a big problem, not sure if it's the right thing to do
 387 2013-03-12 00:44:13 <HM> it's a shame there isn't a dead-mans switch in bitcoind that kills transactions apis when the blockchain is forked by a large degree
 388 2013-03-12 00:44:18 <MagicalTux> [09:40:13] <gavinandresen> If we go back to 0.7, then we risk some other block triggering the same condition. <- if every miner is back on 0.7, those blocks will just be failed forks
 389 2013-03-12 00:44:27 <jgarzik> sipa, Eleuthria: ACK on preferring 0.7 chain, for the moment
 390 2013-03-12 00:44:27 <MagicalTux> (homefully)
 391 2013-03-12 00:44:30 <jgarzik> it's a regression
 392 2013-03-12 00:44:37 <jgarzik> an heretofor unknown bug
 393 2013-03-12 00:44:41 <jgarzik> which must be accomodated
 394 2013-03-12 00:44:53 <DBordello> What chain is Mt. Gox on
 395 2013-03-12 00:44:55 <gavinandresen> Eleuthria: if you can cleanly get us back on the 0.7 chain, ACK from here, too
 396 2013-03-12 00:44:58 swappermall has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 397 2013-03-12 00:45:00 <MagicalTux> DBordello: we stopped import before the fork
 398 2013-03-12 00:45:01 bVector has joined
 399 2013-03-12 00:45:03 <Eleuthria> alright
 400 2013-03-12 00:45:06 <jgarzik> block size wonks will have a field day :)
 401 2013-03-12 00:45:09 <jrmithdobbs> i agree that reverting to .7 rules is the correct first step if anyone cares what I think ;p
 402 2013-03-12 00:45:14 <Eleuthria> I'm copying my old bitcoind blockchain from one of my pre-0.8 nodes now
 403 2013-03-12 00:45:22 <DBordello> MagicalTux, thanks
 404 2013-03-12 00:45:28 Cusipzzz has joined
 405 2013-03-12 00:45:35 <Eleuthria> disabling payouts on my pool temporarily to alleviate some of the problem of more payments disappearing
 406 2013-03-12 00:45:35 <gyver> How much time before Eleuthria bring 0.7 ahead?
 407 2013-03-12 00:45:46 freedom has joined
 408 2013-03-12 00:45:50 <gyver> there's ~1hour lag currently
 409 2013-03-12 00:45:57 kenblazer has joined
 410 2013-03-12 00:45:57 <sipa> Eleuthria: how much TH/s do you have?
 411 2013-03-12 00:46:02 <Eleuthria> Right now 0.8 fork is showing ~double the speed of 0.7 fork
 412 2013-03-12 00:46:05 <Luke-Jr> FWIW http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/chart.php
 413 2013-03-12 00:46:05 <genbtc> 9-10
 414 2013-03-12 00:46:07 * MagicalTux masked bitcoin 0.8.0 from overlay
 415 2013-03-12 00:46:09 <Eleuthria> it forked 10 blocks ago, and 0.8 is 5 blocks ahead
 416 2013-03-12 00:46:15 <Eleuthria> So 0.8 is moving twice as fast
 417 2013-03-12 00:46:19 <Eleuthria> BTC Guild is 10.7 TH/s though
 418 2013-03-12 00:46:20 <genbtc> .8 is on 225441
 419 2013-03-12 00:46:23 nelisky has joined
 420 2013-03-12 00:46:29 chaord has joined
 421 2013-03-12 00:46:36 <evoorhees> Will it help if I pause SatoshiDice processing?
 422 2013-03-12 00:46:38 <gyver> shit could take several hours until 0.8 branch notice the problem
 423 2013-03-12 00:46:41 <Guest2131> BIPS launched on 0.8 so it would be some work going back but it sounds like that is the best way to go
 424 2013-03-12 00:47:15 <sipa> evoorhees: i believe it is safer to stop processing transactions at least until the forks converge
 425 2013-03-12 00:47:21 <Vinnie_win> What happened now? Is there a disturbance in the force?
 426 2013-03-12 00:47:22 <Cusipzzz> evoorhees: that would help permanently, kk
 427 2013-03-12 00:47:28 rbecker is now known as RBecker
 428 2013-03-12 00:47:29 <genbtc> i got an idea.... can't we just hardfork, and leave satoshidice behind on the .7 chain? :P
 429 2013-03-12 00:47:30 <jgarzik> evoorhees: +1 what sipa said
 430 2013-03-12 00:47:30 <Luke-Jr> evoorhees: always
 431 2013-03-12 00:47:43 <evoorhees> okay
 432 2013-03-12 00:47:47 pizzacat has joined
 433 2013-03-12 00:47:52 <sipa> genbtc, Cusipzzz: please, no time for that now
 434 2013-03-12 00:47:53 piuk has joined
 435 2013-03-12 00:48:05 <johnsoft> now is not the time for indiscriminate SD hate
 436 2013-03-12 00:48:12 surge_ has joined
 437 2013-03-12 00:48:13 <Luke-Jr> piuk: yeah, we know
 438 2013-03-12 00:48:29 <piuk> piuk: lock issue?
 439 2013-03-12 00:48:41 Guest2131 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 440 2013-03-12 00:48:48 <Shuro3> piuk: already the top thema
 441 2013-03-12 00:48:50 <Luke-Jr> piuk: 0.8 bug, fix in progress
 442 2013-03-12 00:49:02 <Luke-Jr> piuk: no changes needed from you
 443 2013-03-12 00:49:09 AdamHarding has joined
 444 2013-03-12 00:49:14 tahnok has left ()
 445 2013-03-12 00:49:15 <jgarzik> SIGH
 446 2013-03-12 00:49:19 <Luke-Jr> (but feel free to hang out)
 447 2013-03-12 00:49:23 <surge_> what i should do, when i use 0.8?
 448 2013-03-12 00:49:31 <Vinnie_win> can someone tell me what's going on
 449 2013-03-12 00:49:34 <Luke-Jr> surge_: downgrade to 0.7 if you mine, or just wait
 450 2013-03-12 00:49:38 <jgarzik> piuk: It is a <= 0.7 bug in BDB, that larger blocks and 0.8 exposed
 451 2013-03-12 00:49:39 <bock> this is interesting from a user's point of view... what will happen to a transaction I make with a 0.8 client?
 452 2013-03-12 00:49:43 <TBZ1-SanDiego> ;;ident [nick piuk]
 453 2013-03-12 00:49:44 <gribble> Error: You don't have the admin capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
 454 2013-03-12 00:49:44 <piuk> Luke-Jr: confused, so it is a 0.8 bug? What is the current block height?
 455 2013-03-12 00:49:44 <sipa> jgarzik: exactly
 456 2013-03-12 00:49:46 <doublec> damn, I just updated to 0.8
 457 2013-03-12 00:49:50 <doublec> how easy is a downgrade?
 458 2013-03-12 00:49:51 <K1773R> @OPs: please kick all ppls who start OffTopic stuff right now, this has to be solved ASAP
 459 2013-03-12 00:49:51 mtrlt has joined
 460 2013-03-12 00:49:57 <gyver> damage should be minimal: only miners on 0.8 will lose income and tx confirmations will be slow for several hours
 461 2013-03-12 00:50:00 <jgarzik> piuk: Luke-Jr  is exaggerating (unhelpfully)
 462 2013-03-12 00:50:00 <sipa> doublec: do you operate a pool?
 463 2013-03-12 00:50:01 <Luke-Jr> piuk: it's a bitcoin rule we didn't know about before
 464 2013-03-12 00:50:03 <doublec> sipa: yes
 465 2013-03-12 00:50:07 barmstrong has joined
 466 2013-03-12 00:50:09 neofutur has joined
 467 2013-03-12 00:50:14 <sipa> doublec: then please downgrade now
 468 2013-03-12 00:50:16 <doublec> sipa: bitparking
 469 2013-03-12 00:50:25 <Luke-Jr> doublec: just do it, if you didn't delete blkindex.dat
 470 2013-03-12 00:50:29 <gyver> bock: your transaction will get through
 471 2013-03-12 00:50:34 <doublec> Luke-Jr: cool, no issue then. doing it now.
 472 2013-03-12 00:50:36 <Shuro3> Now iam courious about Eleuthria who said that he  can single handedly put 0.7 back to the majority hash power. How can he do that?
 473 2013-03-12 00:50:36 <Luke-Jr> doublec: worst case should be a little wasted space
 474 2013-03-12 00:50:47 <gyver> bock: on both forks
 475 2013-03-12 00:50:49 <sipa> Shuro3: he has some ASICs pointing at him
 476 2013-03-12 00:50:55 <Eleuthria> Shuro3:  BTC Guild represents about half of the 0.8 chain fork
 477 2013-03-12 00:51:01 * jgarzik switched over to BTC Guild just now, too
 478 2013-03-12 00:51:04 <Eleuthria> So if BTC Guild moves from 0.8 to 0.7
 479 2013-03-12 00:51:10 <Eleuthria> 0.7 will have the majority hash power again
 480 2013-03-12 00:51:24 <doublec> are setting block size parameteres still safe?
 481 2013-03-12 00:51:26 <Luke-Jr> Shuro3: it was already close
 482 2013-03-12 00:51:26 <Shuro3> okay, so Eleuthria is from BTC Guild, okay.
 483 2013-03-12 00:51:28 <doublec> or should I leave it default?
 484 2013-03-12 00:51:33 jojoba has joined
 485 2013-03-12 00:51:38 Deux has joined
 486 2013-03-12 00:51:40 <lianj> nice, and .8 clients can stay on .8 until a more sane patch is found?
 487 2013-03-12 00:51:41 <Luke-Jr> doublec: they're not supported by 0.7
 488 2013-03-12 00:51:43 <Eleuthria> BTC Guild is going back to full default block settings and 0.7 soon.
 489 2013-03-12 00:51:46 <Luke-Jr> doublec: should be ignored
 490 2013-03-12 00:51:47 <piuk> what is the rule 0.8 is violating?
 491 2013-03-12 00:51:53 cjd has joined
 492 2013-03-12 00:51:54 <Luke-Jr> piuk: I'm not sure we know that yet
 493 2013-03-12 00:52:06 <gyver> lianj: only bitcoind used by miners on 0.8 will have problems
 494 2013-03-12 00:52:06 <doublec> Luke-Jr: 0.7.2 has them - are they ignored?
 495 2013-03-12 00:52:07 <Luke-Jr> lianj: as long as they don't mine
 496 2013-03-12 00:52:07 <sipa> piuk: 0.7 had an unknown implicit limit on the size of its BDB transactions
 497 2013-03-12 00:52:08 <jojoba> any effect on usd/btc rate?
 498 2013-03-12 00:52:14 <jgarzik> piuk: a heretofor unknown BDB limitation...  not 100% certain yet.
 499 2013-03-12 00:52:16 <jgarzik> (what sipa said)
 500 2013-03-12 00:52:18 <sipa> piuk: the larger blocks triggered it, likely
 501 2013-03-12 00:52:21 freedom has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 502 2013-03-12 00:52:28 <sipa> piuk: 0.8 doesn't have any problem
 503 2013-03-12 00:52:35 Shaded has joined
 504 2013-03-12 00:52:45 <sipa> piuk: and 0,8 does have more mining power, causing a majority chain being rejected by 0,7
 505 2013-03-12 00:52:56 crashoveride4 has joined
 506 2013-03-12 00:53:02 <nelisky> ouch, how deep is the fork?
 507 2013-03-12 00:53:05 <lianj> gyver: true, but .8 clients are affected by the wrong chain too. but in the solution case, the miners taking the hash power back to .7 matters so that a longer .7 compatible chain emerges
 508 2013-03-12 00:53:05 <sipa> we have ~decided that getting miners temporarily back on 0.7 is the best solution now
 509 2013-03-12 00:53:12 <Luke-Jr> nelisky: 5 blocks now
 510 2013-03-12 00:53:17 <Luke-Jr> well, difference
 511 2013-03-12 00:53:22 <nelisky> oh boy
 512 2013-03-12 00:53:23 <Luke-Jr> about 12 deep total I think?
 513 2013-03-12 00:53:26 <lianj> sipa: sounds good
 514 2013-03-12 00:53:27 <doublec> ok, rolling back to 0.7.2
 515 2013-03-12 00:53:30 <sipa> when the chains converge again, miners 0.8 isn't a problem if they limit block sizes
 516 2013-03-12 00:53:36 jon98837 has joined
 517 2013-03-12 00:53:37 * egecko shuts down his 0.8 node
 518 2013-03-12 00:53:47 TeeCee has joined
 519 2013-03-12 00:53:53 <lianj> egecko: if the node is not mining its fine
 520 2013-03-12 00:54:32 <crashoveride4> so is this gonna mess up the blocks we mined?
 521 2013-03-12 00:54:37 <Shaded> Aren't you supposed to shut down the .7 nodes
 522 2013-03-12 00:54:39 <jrmithdobbs> lianj: less nodes broadcasting the bad blocks in their inv the better, really
 523 2013-03-12 00:54:40 <Shuro3> So BTC Guild is fixing the majority, what kind of socery is this.... :D i have not enough popcorn
 524 2013-03-12 00:54:43 schmoe has joined
 525 2013-03-12 00:54:45 <vbuterin> it'll cause a loss of revenue for the .8 miners
 526 2013-03-12 00:54:46 <egecko> its just building the block chain from scratch right now and i'll have it restart once this is resolved
 527 2013-03-12 00:54:55 <jrmithdobbs> lianj: until we reconverge, at least
 528 2013-03-12 00:54:57 <lianj> jrmithdobbs: oh, right
 529 2013-03-12 00:55:02 <cyphase> according to https://coinbase.com/network/blocks, the 0.8 and 0.7 chains have 6299 and 2609 transactions since 225430, respectively
 530 2013-03-12 00:55:15 axhlf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 531 2013-03-12 00:55:16 kaptah has joined
 532 2013-03-12 00:55:22 bernard75 has joined
 533 2013-03-12 00:55:23 <vbuterin> could someone listening in here plan a double spend attack right now?
 534 2013-03-12 00:55:34 * HM just shuts down *everything*
 535 2013-03-12 00:55:40 <jrmithdobbs> not an interesting one
 536 2013-03-12 00:55:41 Transisto has joined
 537 2013-03-12 00:55:46 <jrmithdobbs> outside of what they already could
 538 2013-03-12 00:55:55 donpdonp has joined
 539 2013-03-12 00:56:00 <bock> HM, just mine to a 0.7 pool like eligius to help the situation
 540 2013-03-12 00:56:18 <phantomcircuit> vbuterin, yes not the major places that would work have all shutdown already
 541 2013-03-12 00:56:27 <GMP> ive reading for 10 min, and i still dont get it, is 000000000000015c50b165fcdd33556f8b44800c5298943ac70b112df480c023	main	225430 going to be accepted or not?
 542 2013-03-12 00:56:46 <sipa> GMP: no
 543 2013-03-12 00:57:00 <GMP> bdb processed it just fine!
 544 2013-03-12 00:57:04 <GMP> why?
 545 2013-03-12 00:57:09 <Eleuthria> euh
 546 2013-03-12 00:57:14 <Eleuthria> I've lost way too much money in the last 24 hours
 547 2013-03-12 00:57:16 chrisb has joined
 548 2013-03-12 00:57:16 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 549 2013-03-12 00:57:17 <Eleuthria> from 0.8
 550 2013-03-12 00:57:33 <Shuro3> Did 0.7.2. notice a forkchange automaticly?
 551 2013-03-12 00:57:35 <JWU42> :/
 552 2013-03-12 00:57:41 <JWU42> sorry E
 553 2013-03-12 00:57:45 <K1773R> Eleuthria. better loosing a bit than a total disaster
 554 2013-03-12 00:57:47 <lianj> GMP: because all .7 clients would never accept it
 555 2013-03-12 00:57:47 con__ has joined
 556 2013-03-12 00:58:15 <lianj> GMP: thats why a .7 will win and the .8 chain starting with 000000000000015c50b165fcdd33556f8b44800c5298943ac70b112df480c023ImainI225430 gets dust
 557 2013-03-12 00:58:15 KuDeTa has joined
 558 2013-03-12 00:58:18 shergill has joined
 559 2013-03-12 00:58:21 <crashoveride4> ya only a .033 loss for me if it doesn't accept that block for slush's pool
 560 2013-03-12 00:58:24 <phantomcircuit> Shuro3, yes
 561 2013-03-12 00:58:29 <phantomcircuit> i got a warning on my client
 562 2013-03-12 00:58:29 <sipa> Eleuthria: can you confirm you're switching to 0.7?
 563 2013-03-12 00:58:31 <phantomcircuit> but it disappeared
 564 2013-03-12 00:58:32 <thermoman> should the 0.7 clients be shutdown for security?
 565 2013-03-12 00:58:32 <Eleuthria> I am.
 566 2013-03-12 00:58:36 <sipa> Eleuthria: thanks
 567 2013-03-12 00:58:38 kanoi has joined
 568 2013-03-12 00:58:41 <Eleuthria> but it will take about 45 minutes
 569 2013-03-12 00:58:44 <Luke-Jr> thermoman: no, 0.7 is fine
 570 2013-03-12 00:58:46 randy-waterhouse has joined
 571 2013-03-12 00:58:47 <Eleuthria> I have to transfer the full blockchain between nodes
 572 2013-03-12 00:58:56 shergill has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
 573 2013-03-12 00:59:05 <JWU42> ugh - no copy of the old blockchain
 574 2013-03-12 00:59:11 [269]gbg has joined
 575 2013-03-12 00:59:13 <con__> hmm same
 576 2013-03-12 00:59:16 <evoorhees> Okay SatoshiDice is on pause now. Receiving bets but not processing anything.
 577 2013-03-12 00:59:24 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: probably still should send an alert not to trust confirms?
 578 2013-03-12 00:59:35 <crashoveride4> i have .7.1beta and it's not even sync'in up anymore
 579 2013-03-12 00:59:38 <jgarzik> by the time the alert is read
 580 2013-03-12 00:59:41 <jgarzik> we'll have converged
 581 2013-03-12 00:59:50 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, an alert should go out, for some reason the warning message disappears after a very short period of time
 582 2013-03-12 00:59:50 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: 45 minutes?
 583 2013-03-12 01:00:37 <K1773R> Luke-Jr: there should be definitely a warning for the 0.8 users, this way solo miners know the problem faster and can downgrade earlier
 584 2013-03-12 01:00:39 <Shuro3> so what should 0.7.2 do? Some people are brabbeling about an old blockchain and I've lost the thread a while ago
 585 2013-03-12 01:00:48 <holorga> btw, people, email http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=30587843 recommending "Immediate solution is upgrading to 0.8" is circulating fast, maybe update this info if you are reverting to 0.7
 586 2013-03-12 01:00:59 <gyver> Damn, I'm glad I scripted my rigs configuration, everything on BTCGuild
 587 2013-03-12 01:00:59 <sipa> holorga: i'm sending a follow-up
 588 2013-03-12 01:01:16 <Eleuthria> Almost got one stratum node moved
 589 2013-03-12 01:01:19 <Luke-Jr> does anyone have a way to reach slush?
 590 2013-03-12 01:01:21 <con__> .7.2 is the last good?
 591 2013-03-12 01:01:21 joehoyle has joined
 592 2013-03-12 01:01:23 <Shaded> gavinandresen: Can we get an official response to broadcast to the community?
 593 2013-03-12 01:01:24 <Eleuthria> Then the next 2 will take another 20 minutes or so
 594 2013-03-12 01:01:28 <piuk> for 0.7 i guess dp.cpp: dbenv.set_lk_max_locks() needs increasing?
 595 2013-03-12 01:01:31 <JWU42> send hashes to btcguild one E is on 0.7 ?
 596 2013-03-12 01:01:32 <Eleuthria> Luke:  At least one of slush's nodes is on pre-0.8
 597 2013-03-12 01:01:36 <jrmithdobbs> piuk: no
 598 2013-03-12 01:01:36 <Eleuthria> He has the last block on the 0.7 chain
 599 2013-03-12 01:01:38 <gavinandresen> working on alert now…
 600 2013-03-12 01:01:39 <gmaxwell> piuk: do not increase it.
 601 2013-03-12 01:01:40 <jrmithdobbs> piuk: no no no
 602 2013-03-12 01:01:41 <K1773R> So which pool is ATM running with 0.7, Eligius?
 603 2013-03-12 01:01:50 BIgv has joined
 604 2013-03-12 01:02:00 TeeCee has left ()
 605 2013-03-12 01:02:03 <piuk> why?
 606 2013-03-12 01:02:05 * kanoi is still running 0.7.0 but getting DB exceptions - current block shows 225435
 607 2013-03-12 01:02:16 <Shaded> Luke-Jr: Sent him a message on skype.
 608 2013-03-12 01:02:18 <gwillen> so, will all 0.7.x nodes run out of lock entries deterministically on the same set of blocks?
 609 2013-03-12 01:02:22 <randy-waterhouse> so now we can stop SatoshiDICE ... how convenient
 610 2013-03-12 01:02:22 <schmoe> so what´s the worst case scenario of this? i mean not for the value in $ but for the system?
 611 2013-03-12 01:02:27 <gwillen> Assuming not, this means there is still fork potential, right?
 612 2013-03-12 01:02:28 <Shaded> Luke-Jr: I'll ring him in 5 mins if he hasn't tesponded
 613 2013-03-12 01:02:36 <Luke-Jr> Shaded: thx
 614 2013-03-12 01:02:36 BTC_Bear has joined
 615 2013-03-12 01:02:39 tonylorusso has joined
 616 2013-03-12 01:02:43 <jrmithdobbs> piuk: if you aren't running something that consists of a large % of the network's hash power you should do *nothing* right now, unless you have .8 nodes in which case you may want to shut them down for 30ish min
 617 2013-03-12 01:02:43 <K1773R> schmoe: 0.8 chain will be invalidated, the faster its down the less harm
 618 2013-03-12 01:02:57 <gmaxwell> Making 0.7 compatible with 0.8 just make it problematic too. This is a hardfork. We need to get consistency with a chain accepted by the least common denominator.
 619 2013-03-12 01:02:58 BIgv has quit (Client Quit)
 620 2013-03-12 01:03:04 <gwillen> (this seems to suggest that if a miner encounters an unexpected condition while processing a block, it is neither safe to accept it nor to reject it.)
 621 2013-03-12 01:03:11 <Shaded> Luke-Jr: Can you get pieter to rescind his message saying to upgrade to 0.8
 622 2013-03-12 01:03:16 alexbeal has joined
 623 2013-03-12 01:03:26 <Eleuthria> ************************ EXCEPTION: 11DbException Db::get: Cannot allocate memory bitcoin in ProcessMessage()
 624 2013-03-12 01:03:29 <Shaded> We need a unified action plan here
 625 2013-03-12 01:03:30 <sipa> Shaded: i am Pieter, and have just replied to myself
 626 2013-03-12 01:03:31 <Eleuthria> Is filling the logs on my 0.8 nodes
 627 2013-03-12 01:03:35 <Shaded> sipa: Thank you
 628 2013-03-12 01:03:38 <thermoman> do the 0.7 nodes stuck on block 225435 have to do anythinig?
 629 2013-03-12 01:03:39 MemoryDealers_ has joined
 630 2013-03-12 01:03:40 <Graet> so we are going back to limited blocksizes and 3k+ unconfirmed txns queing up?
 631 2013-03-12 01:03:42 <Shaded> I forgot your IRC username :)
 632 2013-03-12 01:03:42 <sipa> thermoman: no
 633 2013-03-12 01:03:45 <jrmithdobbs> thermoman: just wait
 634 2013-03-12 01:03:50 <gmaxwell> thermoman: Just wait.
 635 2013-03-12 01:04:02 <thermoman> ok
 636 2013-03-12 01:04:07 <KuDeTa> Would someone mind telling me if the problem has been indentified and if so, what it was? I've got various worried people asking me what the matter is. A quick message would go a long way.
 637 2013-03-12 01:04:07 <Eleuthria> err
 638 2013-03-12 01:04:10 <Eleuthria> my pre 0.8 nodes
 639 2013-03-12 01:04:14 <Eleuthria> ************************ EXCEPTION: 11DbException Db::get: Cannot allocate memory bitcoin in ProcessMessage()  - nonstop
 640 2013-03-12 01:04:24 <sipa> Eleuthria: and that kills the nodes?
 641 2013-03-12 01:04:28 <K1773R> KuDeTa, please read the history
 642 2013-03-12 01:04:34 <lianj> KuDeTa: not really, right now its more targeted for a solution
 643 2013-03-12 01:04:37 <kanoi> as a single user I've only got a few in the last 2 hours on 2x0.7.0
 644 2013-03-12 01:04:37 <Eleuthria> Doesn't seem to kill the node
 645 2013-03-12 01:04:41 <Eleuthria> Just filling the logs
 646 2013-03-12 01:04:43 <sipa> Eleuthria: ok
 647 2013-03-12 01:04:49 Bbbbb has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 648 2013-03-12 01:04:49 <thermoman> KuDeTa: 0.7 and 0.8 clients diverged with each having a different block chain because 0.7 clients didn't accept 0.8 blocks from a certain point on
 649 2013-03-12 01:04:49 <gwillen> KuDeTa: I am not a canonical source, but it appears to me that the problem is that a bug in 0.7 is triggered on blocks with many transactions
 650 2013-03-12 01:04:53 <kanoi> (yes it keeps running)
 651 2013-03-12 01:04:58 <sipa> Eleuthria: are you creating work?
 652 2013-03-12 01:04:59 <Shaded> KuDeTa: I sent you a short summary
 653 2013-03-12 01:05:05 Tuxavant_ has joined
 654 2013-03-12 01:05:06 <DBordello> And we are going to try to catch 0.70 up?
 655 2013-03-12 01:05:09 <gwillen> KuDeTa: This is bad because the bug causes 0.7 clients to reject the blocks while 0.8 clients accept them.
 656 2013-03-12 01:05:19 <gwillen> DBordello: that appears to be the case.
 657 2013-03-12 01:05:22 <K1773R> DBordello, 0.8 chain will be invalidated
 658 2013-03-12 01:05:31 <DBordello> Okay
 659 2013-03-12 01:05:38 Thumper_UK has joined
 660 2013-03-12 01:05:46 <lianj> .8 at 225441 now
 661 2013-03-12 01:05:59 <K1773R> 225442
 662 2013-03-12 01:06:00 <lianj> .7 must get faster :P
 663 2013-03-12 01:06:02 <kanoi> 0.7 at 225435
 664 2013-03-12 01:06:03 <Shuro3> So the 0.7 fork (225435) is going to be the main fork
 665 2013-03-12 01:06:08 <jgarzik> Shuro3: yes
 666 2013-03-12 01:06:12 <K1773R> Shuro3, yes
 667 2013-03-12 01:06:15 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 668 2013-03-12 01:06:16 <GMP> 0.5 at 225442
 669 2013-03-12 01:06:17 barmstrong has quit (Quit: barmstrong)
 670 2013-03-12 01:06:21 <thermoman> should 0.7 clients ignore the "Lock table is out of available lock entries" errors from 1-2 hours ago or should these clients be restarted?
 671 2013-03-12 01:06:26 <DBordello> Did we get most of the pools over to 0.7
 672 2013-03-12 01:06:30 <jgarzik> GMP: really?  That is quite interesting.
 673 2013-03-12 01:06:31 B0g4r7 has joined
 674 2013-03-12 01:06:31 <KuDeTa> Shaded gwillen thermoman thanks very much. Thanks for your work and good luck.
 675 2013-03-12 01:06:32 <K1773R> thermoman, let em running
 676 2013-03-12 01:06:36 <sipa> thermoman: ignore
 677 2013-03-12 01:06:40 <thermoman> ok
 678 2013-03-12 01:06:41 <Eleuthria> wait
 679 2013-03-12 01:06:41 <GMP> 0.5 at 225443
 680 2013-03-12 01:06:46 <Eleuthria> !
 681 2013-03-12 01:06:46 <K1773R> DBordello, being worked on
 682 2013-03-12 01:06:47 <gavinandresen> Somebody sanity check:  https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/5139421
 683 2013-03-12 01:06:49 <Shaded> Has anyone identified any double spend attacks yet?
 684 2013-03-12 01:06:53 <Luke-Jr> !
 685 2013-03-12 01:06:58 <Eleuthria> 0.5 isn't broken?
 686 2013-03-12 01:07:05 <sipa> Eleuthria: wait, what?
 687 2013-03-12 01:07:06 <K1773R> Shaded, wrong place, this is OffTopic
 688 2013-03-12 01:07:08 <gavinandresen> alert params set to relay for 15 minutes, expire after 4 hours
 689 2013-03-12 01:07:12 moocowpong1 has joined
 690 2013-03-12 01:07:13 <Luke-Jr> either way, 0.7 is LCD
 691 2013-03-12 01:07:22 <randy-waterhouse> can i downgrade a 0.8 chain to a 0.7 chain?
 692 2013-03-12 01:07:22 <GMP> Eleuthria: 0.5 fine
 693 2013-03-12 01:07:31 <jgarzik> sipa: ^
 694 2013-03-12 01:07:40 <thermoman> Luke-Jr: LCD?
 695 2013-03-12 01:07:41 <gwillen> gavinandresen: you may wish to provide a url for more information
 696 2013-03-12 01:07:46 <thermoman> ah ok got it Luke-Jr
 697 2013-03-12 01:07:49 <gwillen> gavinandresen: or a reference to a channel or something
 698 2013-03-12 01:07:50 <thermoman> least common dominator
 699 2013-03-12 01:07:51 <sipa> Eleuthria: 0.5 should (as in: i expect it to) behave the same as 0.8
 700 2013-03-12 01:07:54 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: really should say to ignore confirms…
 701 2013-03-12 01:07:58 <K1773R> randy-waterhouse, if you didnt delete the old blockchain files in .bitcoin, yes
 702 2013-03-12 01:08:03 <sipa> Eleuthria: eh, as 0.7  !!!
 703 2013-03-12 01:08:08 <randy-waterhouse> K1773R: thnaks
 704 2013-03-12 01:08:11 <[269]gbg> if .7 is stuck, isn't .8 longer and more 'valid'?
 705 2013-03-12 01:08:11 <K1773R> yw
 706 2013-03-12 01:08:15 chuck has joined
 707 2013-03-12 01:08:15 <GMP> 0.5 at 225444
 708 2013-03-12 01:08:21 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: ?  any transactions will be broadcast to both chains, this is not a network split
 709 2013-03-12 01:08:26 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ACK, or limit block size...
 710 2013-03-12 01:08:28 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: unless someone is double spending
 711 2013-03-12 01:08:31 <jrmithdobbs> [269]gbg: now? yes. in an hour? no it wont be
 712 2013-03-12 01:08:41 <[269]gbg> k, thx
 713 2013-03-12 01:08:42 <jrmithdobbs> [269]gbg: just hold on a bit
 714 2013-03-12 01:08:44 <defunctzombie> is there a problem with the blockchain?
 715 2013-03-12 01:08:46 <K1773R> randy-waterhouse, maybe u would have to delete the database and the __db too if u get in trouble
 716 2013-03-12 01:08:47 <neofutur> so the decision is clearly to downgrade to 0.7 ?
 717 2013-03-12 01:08:52 <jrmithdobbs> defunctzombie: yes, just wait, it's being sorted
 718 2013-03-12 01:08:53 protus has joined
 719 2013-03-12 01:08:53 <defunctzombie> I am seeing more blocks on my 0.7 client than I am on blockchain.info
 720 2013-03-12 01:08:56 <neofutur> thats why we should nnoucne everywhere ?
 721 2013-03-12 01:08:59 <K1773R> defunctzombie, wait pls
 722 2013-03-12 01:09:01 <neofutur> cler answer needed
 723 2013-03-12 01:09:04 alexkravets has joined
 724 2013-03-12 01:09:05 <jrmithdobbs> defunctzombie: unless you control a large % of hash power you need to do nothing at all right this moment
 725 2013-03-12 01:09:05 <etotheipi_> haha, there needs to be a hidden IRC channel for this kind of thing
 726 2013-03-12 01:09:07 <sipa> Eleuthria: can you confirm that 0.5 behaves the same as 0.7?
 727 2013-03-12 01:09:12 <defunctzombie> I run bitfloor, do I need to take any action?
 728 2013-03-12 01:09:15 <neofutur> thats what we should announce everywhere ?
 729 2013-03-12 01:09:16 <Eleuthria> sipa:  GMP is the one posting 0.5 is at block 225444
 730 2013-03-12 01:09:19 <defunctzombie> should I pause funds in/out?
 731 2013-03-12 01:09:20 <sipa> defunctzombie: which bitcoind are you on?
 732 2013-03-12 01:09:21 <jgarzik> defunctzombie: stop importing blocks
 733 2013-03-12 01:09:24 <defunctzombie> 0.7
 734 2013-03-12 01:09:25 <K1773R> etotheipi_, i suggested the OPs to kick+ban ppls who do OffTopic now
 735 2013-03-12 01:09:27 <Shaded> defunctzombie: Yes, pause txns
 736 2013-03-12 01:09:27 <Eleuthria> I don't have a 0.5 node
 737 2013-03-12 01:09:29 <Luke-Jr> GMP: what 0.5.x version?
 738 2013-03-12 01:09:32 <defunctzombie> ok, will do
 739 2013-03-12 01:09:34 <jrmithdobbs> defunctzombie: stop accepting anything for right now
 740 2013-03-12 01:09:43 <jrmithdobbs> <3
 741 2013-03-12 01:09:54 <GMP> 0.5.0.1-beta
 742 2013-03-12 01:10:05 KIDC has joined
 743 2013-03-12 01:10:05 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 744 2013-03-12 01:10:14 <Luke-Jr> GMP: official binaries, or custom build?
 745 2013-03-12 01:10:20 <GMP> custom
 746 2013-03-12 01:10:23 moartr4dez has joined
 747 2013-03-12 01:10:25 <Luke-Jr> GMP: bdb 4.8 or newer?
 748 2013-03-12 01:10:28 Ukto has joined
 749 2013-03-12 01:10:32 MKEGuy has joined
 750 2013-03-12 01:10:33 <kanoi> only other important question :) How far back is the fork? :)
 751 2013-03-12 01:10:36 <Vinnie_win> kudeta: Minor bug, it's being handled. Go to sleep and when you wake up all will be well.
 752 2013-03-12 01:10:39 fabrizziop has joined
 753 2013-03-12 01:10:39 hawks5999 has joined
 754 2013-03-12 01:10:40 <lianj> .7 still at 225435? oO
 755 2013-03-12 01:10:43 <neofutur> fyi all  https://support.mtgox.com/entries/21477395-Bitcoin-blockchain-issue-bitcoin-deposits-temporarily-suspended
 756 2013-03-12 01:11:05 <kanoi> 0.7 225435 = 000000000000027373b3fa7b123ca461e5c5d090c9caeb24a8bbbd32e1eaaa5d
 757 2013-03-12 01:11:05 <K1773R> kanoi, https://coinbase.com/network/blocks
 758 2013-03-12 01:11:08 chainmedic has joined
 759 2013-03-12 01:11:09 <defunctzombie> I have paused all tx at bitfloor
 760 2013-03-12 01:11:19 <defunctzombie> will wait for confirmation that we think things are resolved
 761 2013-03-12 01:11:21 t4nk191 has joined
 762 2013-03-12 01:11:25 <fabrizziop> should I panic?
 763 2013-03-12 01:11:28 <con__> yes
 764 2013-03-12 01:11:30 <moartr4dez> yes, panic!
 765 2013-03-12 01:11:32 <con__> get in line tho
 766 2013-03-12 01:11:32 <etotheipi_> lol, no
 767 2013-03-12 01:11:32 <Vinnie_win> fabrizziop: No don't panic
 768 2013-03-12 01:11:36 <gwillen> no, and please keep offtopic chat out of this channel
 769 2013-03-12 01:11:37 sipa has quit (Changing host)
 770 2013-03-12 01:11:37 sipa has joined
 771 2013-03-12 01:11:38 <neofutur> so the decision is clearly to downgrade to 0.7 ? thats what we should announce everywhere ?
 772 2013-03-12 01:11:42 <lianj> fabrizziop: at least not msg spam here
 773 2013-03-12 01:11:43 <moartr4dez> Don't worry - I will buy you bitcoin for... lesse... $10!
 774 2013-03-12 01:11:47 cmelbye has joined
 775 2013-03-12 01:11:48 <moartr4dez> your*
 776 2013-03-12 01:11:48 <Luke-Jr> neofutur: probably best to clarify the linked solution is outdated
 777 2013-03-12 01:11:50 petr has joined
 778 2013-03-12 01:11:55 <jgarzik> OK, offtopic and FAQ will get kicked
 779 2013-03-12 01:11:56 <jgarzik> OK, offtopic and FAQ will get kicked
 780 2013-03-12 01:11:58 <Luke-Jr> neofutur: only miners need to downgrade, and only temporarily
 781 2013-03-12 01:11:58 <etotheipi_> only miners need to downgrade, regular nodes don't need to do anything
 782 2013-03-12 01:12:01 ack210 has joined
 783 2013-03-12 01:12:01 <K1773R> sipa: pls kickban OffTopic ppl or move the chat elsewhere, ty
 784 2013-03-12 01:12:03 <neofutur> ok
 785 2013-03-12 01:12:13 petr is now known as Guest30702
 786 2013-03-12 01:12:15 <jouke> But, my .7 client is still stuck.
 787 2013-03-12 01:12:17 <gavinandresen> Everybody mining on version 0.8 should stop mining for now.  When you start again in a few hours, you should set your maxblocksize to 500k or less.
 788 2013-03-12 01:12:25 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ACK
 789 2013-03-12 01:12:35 <vbuterin> do we have any idea how much TH/s we have on each version right now?
 790 2013-03-12 01:12:38 blockchainz has joined
 791 2013-03-12 01:12:43 <sipa> jouke: what is your last block?
 792 2013-03-12 01:12:44 <defunctzombie> my 0.7 client did not appear to have issues (I think)
 793 2013-03-12 01:12:51 <kanoi> I presume 0.7 isn't stuck just mining with a lot fewer people?
 794 2013-03-12 01:12:51 <defunctzombie> not immeidately clear tho
 795 2013-03-12 01:12:54 <jouke> still 225429
 796 2013-03-12 01:12:55 barmstrong has joined
 797 2013-03-12 01:12:57 dd3 has joined
 798 2013-03-12 01:13:08 <jgarzik> defunctzombie: 0.7 will just appear stuck or slow, to users, as it is on a fork
 799 2013-03-12 01:13:14 <lianj> gavinandresen: if you have 500k or less? a exact number (published later) would be nice
 800 2013-03-12 01:13:16 <sipa> jouke: are you conntect to other 0.7's?
 801 2013-03-12 01:13:21 <neofutur> Luke-Jr: thanks for the answer
 802 2013-03-12 01:13:26 <jgarzik> lianj: we do not know enough yet
 803 2013-03-12 01:13:27 <defunctzombie> jgarzik: will I need to rollback any transactions?
 804 2013-03-12 01:13:28 aethero has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 805 2013-03-12 01:13:32 <doublec> my 0.7 pool node is on block 225435. Does that sound like what it should be on?
 806 2013-03-12 01:13:33 <MagicalTux> "version" : 70200, "blocks" : 225435,
 807 2013-03-12 01:13:36 <phantomcircuit> defunctzombie, you should be seeing a number of warnings about forks
 808 2013-03-12 01:13:38 <sipa> doublec: sounds right
 809 2013-03-12 01:13:40 <gwillen> Can I ask again: Is the set of blocks which will fail validation due to the 0.7 bug a deterministic set? Or will it differ from client to client?
 810 2013-03-12 01:13:42 <Ukto> if the db is up to date, shows latest block, it should be fine, right?
 811 2013-03-12 01:13:44 <doublec> ok, thanks
 812 2013-03-12 01:13:47 <jgarzik> defunctzombie: unlikely
 813 2013-03-12 01:13:50 <lianj> jgarzik: yep, just saying.. anyhow doing great work guys, thank you!
 814 2013-03-12 01:13:51 <jon98837> getinfo on 0.7.2 is saying "Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade."  ...I take it this means it thinks it's out of sync with everyone else and is not happy about it?
 815 2013-03-12 01:13:56 <defunctzombie> I am seeing my 0.7 on 225443
 816 2013-03-12 01:13:57 drapetomano has joined
 817 2013-03-12 01:13:58 <sipa> jouke: yes, expected
 818 2013-03-12 01:14:03 <jouke> sipa: a couple
 819 2013-03-12 01:14:03 <sipa> eh, jon98837: expected
 820 2013-03-12 01:14:04 <defunctzombie> correction 225444
 821 2013-03-12 01:14:06 <jrmithdobbs> jon98837: expected
 822 2013-03-12 01:14:10 alexkravets has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 823 2013-03-12 01:14:13 Derringer has joined
 824 2013-03-12 01:14:15 <sipa> jouke: you're not only behind a 0.8 node?
 825 2013-03-12 01:14:17 <gmaxwell> jon98837: Just do nothing right now. There is a network wide issue at the moment which will be resolved in time.
 826 2013-03-12 01:14:20 * thermoman is on 0.7.2 and still 225435
 827 2013-03-12 01:14:25 <Eleuthria> 0.8 is 9 blocks ahead now...
 828 2013-03-12 01:14:30 <jouke> sipa: not anymore no
 829 2013-03-12 01:14:55 blah has joined
 830 2013-03-12 01:14:56 <defunctzombie> Eleuthria: what is the current block count?
 831 2013-03-12 01:14:57 <surge_> AFTER THE ALERT BTC PRIZE DROPED from 48 to 46$
 832 2013-03-12 01:14:58 <kanoi> ok so last same for 0.7 and 0.8 was 225429
 833 2013-03-12 01:15:13 <Jezzz> ^
 834 2013-03-12 01:15:34 davos has joined
 835 2013-03-12 01:15:36 <phantomcircuit> surge_, it actually dropped before
 836 2013-03-12 01:15:51 aethero has joined
 837 2013-03-12 01:15:58 oleganza has joined
 838 2013-03-12 01:16:06 x893092kz has joined
 839 2013-03-12 01:16:20 <JWU42> well mt.red shutdown it seems
 840 2013-03-12 01:16:35 <JWU42> I believe they just updated to 0.80
 841 2013-03-12 01:16:42 <gmaxwell> kanoi: yes, https://coinbase.com/network/blocks/000000000000015c50b165fcdd33556f8b44800c5298943ac70b112df480c023  is a rather large block
 842 2013-03-12 01:16:45 Sydna has joined
 843 2013-03-12 01:16:47 <MagicalTux> JWU42: mt.red ?
 844 2013-03-12 01:16:52 <JWU42> mining pool
 845 2013-03-12 01:16:53 blinky has joined
 846 2013-03-12 01:16:57 <MagicalTux> ok
 847 2013-03-12 01:17:07 <JWU42> no - not Mt Gox ;)
 848 2013-03-12 01:17:25 joehoyle has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
 849 2013-03-12 01:17:28 <fabrizziop> so what, I have bitcoin 0.8, so should we downgrade or upgrade?
 850 2013-03-12 01:17:30 fooooo_ has joined
 851 2013-03-12 01:17:38 <gmaxwell> fabrizziop: are you a mining pool?
 852 2013-03-12 01:17:45 <jgarzik> fabrizziop: if mining, use 0.7.  otherwise, just wait.
 853 2013-03-12 01:17:46 <fabrizziop> no, but I mine with slush
 854 2013-03-12 01:17:53 <JWU42> I _think_ as long as you aren't mining it is OK to keep running 0.8
 855 2013-03-12 01:17:55 <gmaxwell> JWU42: Tell them not to do that, or they're going to get their blocks orphaned...
 856 2013-03-12 01:18:00 ocminer has joined
 857 2013-03-12 01:18:07 <sipa> gmaxwell, jgarzik: advice for merchants should be to stop processing until the chains converge
 858 2013-03-12 01:18:10 <con__> but will the .7 clients not invalidate the blocks generated on .8 after that?
 859 2013-03-12 01:18:15 Kiba has joined
 860 2013-03-12 01:18:15 <defunctzombie> will there be an announcement about the "real" best block and hash once this stabilizes?
 861 2013-03-12 01:18:15 <Luke-Jr> fabrizziop: use getwork
 862 2013-03-12 01:18:16 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 863 2013-03-12 01:18:18 <jgarzik> sipa: ACK
 864 2013-03-12 01:18:21 <gmaxwell> sipa: I've been telling people that, yes.
 865 2013-03-12 01:18:23 <JWU42> gmaxwell: I don't have a direct line to RR - but did post on the forums gavin's message
 866 2013-03-12 01:18:25 <sipa> i don't want this made worse by someone doing a 6-block long double spend
 867 2013-03-12 01:18:25 koinandable has joined
 868 2013-03-12 01:18:27 drakness has joined
 869 2013-03-12 01:18:29 drago777 has joined
 870 2013-03-12 01:18:29 gdsl has joined
 871 2013-03-12 01:18:36 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ^
 872 2013-03-12 01:18:38 happywarrior has joined
 873 2013-03-12 01:18:42 jonls has joined
 874 2013-03-12 01:18:49 <kanoi> con__ yes it's forked back at 225429 0.7 one fork 0.8 another
 875 2013-03-12 01:18:50 <defunctzombie> MagicalTux: what is the plan to turn tx back on? I have disabled mine as of now.
 876 2013-03-12 01:18:59 <MagicalTux> defunctzombie: see https://support.mtgox.com/entries/21477395-Bitcoin-blockchain-issue-bitcoin-deposits-temporarily-suspended
 877 2013-03-12 01:19:07 <Kiba> you't can reject bitcoin deposit!
 878 2013-03-12 01:19:11 <con__> kanoi, which is why I'm asking, what will happen to people running their .8 bitcoinds ?
 879 2013-03-12 01:19:13 <Luke-Jr> BitPay frozen
 880 2013-03-12 01:19:19 <Shaded> sipa: Most merchants online right now have payments frozen
 881 2013-03-12 01:19:25 <sipa> Shaded: good
 882 2013-03-12 01:19:40 RoboTeddy has joined
 883 2013-03-12 01:19:48 pheuter has joined
 884 2013-03-12 01:19:53 <jgarzik> Name a 0.7 pool, and I can point the ASIC miner at it.
 885 2013-03-12 01:19:58 <gmaxwell> con__: For non-miners they should sit tight, not accept new payments until this is resolved. Their nodes will happily reorg when the other chain overtakes.
 886 2013-03-12 01:19:58 <jgarzik> Don't have a local 0.7 ATM
 887 2013-03-12 01:20:01 <sipa> con__: 0.8 is fine if you're not mining; 0.8 clients will switch to the 0.7 fork when enough mining power is behind that
 888 2013-03-12 01:20:09 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: Eligius :P
 889 2013-03-12 01:20:13 <con__> ah k thanks sipa, gmaxwell
 890 2013-03-12 01:20:15 * sipa turns off his 0.8GH/s on 0.8
 891 2013-03-12 01:20:19 <Eleuthria> jgarzik: 50.31.149.57
 892 2013-03-12 01:20:20 <Eleuthria> 3333
 893 2013-03-12 01:20:22 andrew12 has joined
 894 2013-03-12 01:20:23 <defunctzombie> MagicalTux: yea, I saw that. At what point do we go ahead?
 895 2013-03-12 01:20:23 <etotheipi_> lol, sipa
 896 2013-03-12 01:20:24 <B0g4r7> jgazrik, I hear eligius is OK.
 897 2013-03-12 01:20:27 <Eleuthria> shit
 898 2013-03-12 01:20:27 <JWU42> sipa: suggestions for where to mine if 0.8 pool is now down ?
 899 2013-03-12 01:20:28 <Eleuthria> nevermind
 900 2013-03-12 01:20:39 <sipa> JWU42: anything on 0.7
 901 2013-03-12 01:20:40 <JWU42> ahh - E that works?
 902 2013-03-12 01:20:44 <Eleuthria> oh this is so damn bad.
 903 2013-03-12 01:20:45 fydel has joined
 904 2013-03-12 01:20:46 qwerty has joined
 905 2013-03-12 01:20:55 <DBordello> defunctzombie, I am waiting until the 0.7 chain passes the 0.8 chain
 906 2013-03-12 01:20:59 <DBordello> and everybodies clients reorg
 907 2013-03-12 01:21:00 <Eleuthria> my stratum interface is disconnecting
 908 2013-03-12 01:21:00 <MagicalTux> defunctzombie: once length of 0.7.2 blockchain is > 0.8
 909 2013-03-12 01:21:04 <sipa> Eleuthria: i'm sorry for the trouble 0.8 has caused you already
 910 2013-03-12 01:21:09 qwerty is now known as Guest29005
 911 2013-03-12 01:21:14 <defunctzombie> DBordello: where are you monitoring this?
 912 2013-03-12 01:21:18 <Shaded> Anyone have Brian Armstrong's cell phone number?
 913 2013-03-12 01:21:18 patrickr has joined
 914 2013-03-12 01:21:18 <MagicalTux> (actually, length(0.7.2) > length(0.8)+6 may be safer)
 915 2013-03-12 01:21:27 <defunctzombie> because my apps tell me the chain is longer than what I see on other sites
 916 2013-03-12 01:21:28 <Eleuthria> ~1500 BTC lost in 24 hours from this
 917 2013-03-12 01:21:31 <kanoi> Eleuthria should for a rollback before his payout problem :D :D :D
 918 2013-03-12 01:21:32 <DBordello> defunctzombie, ./bitcoind getinfo on two nodes
 919 2013-03-12 01:21:34 <Eleuthria> the hardfork and the new DB structure in 0.8
 920 2013-03-12 01:21:46 <defunctzombie> DBordello: gotcha
 921 2013-03-12 01:21:49 <K1773R> Eleuthria, in generall or just ur pool?
 922 2013-03-12 01:21:49 <Luke-Jr> Eleuthria: disconnecting?
 923 2013-03-12 01:21:58 <defunctzombie> MagicalTux: any thoughts on a trading pause on this?
 924 2013-03-12 01:21:58 <Luke-Jr> Shaded: I think I do
 925 2013-03-12 01:22:03 <fabrizziop> wait a minute, could you explain exactly what block caused the fork and why?
 926 2013-03-12 01:22:04 patrickr is now known as not-applicable
 927 2013-03-12 01:22:09 <lianj> Shaded: coinbase is working on it
 928 2013-03-12 01:22:10 <Shaded> Luke-Jr: Give him a ring please
 929 2013-03-12 01:22:12 yellowhat-2 has joined
 930 2013-03-12 01:22:12 nomailing has joined
 931 2013-03-12 01:22:14 <fabrizziop> I didn't understood correctly
 932 2013-03-12 01:22:15 <Shaded> lianj: ok, thanks
 933 2013-03-12 01:22:18 <K1773R> no fabrizziop read the history
 934 2013-03-12 01:22:20 <MagicalTux> [10:21:45] <defunctzombie> MagicalTux: any thoughts on a trading pause on this? <- considered it, but it doesn't make much difference
 935 2013-03-12 01:22:23 stikonas has joined
 936 2013-03-12 01:22:25 <Luke-Jr> calling
 937 2013-03-12 01:22:26 mistery2356 has joined
 938 2013-03-12 01:22:34 <MagicalTux> hopefully this won't last more than a few hours
 939 2013-03-12 01:22:34 <lianj> Shaded: you could join #coinbase
 940 2013-03-12 01:22:42 <lianj> Shaded: but its already being worked on
 941 2013-03-12 01:22:43 <Luke-Jr> oops, see lianj
 942 2013-03-12 01:22:43 <evoorhees> defunctzombie: I do not think trading should stop
 943 2013-03-12 01:22:49 petr_ has joined
 944 2013-03-12 01:22:50 <defunctzombie> MagicalTux: kk, if you do decide to go ahead, ping me and I will do the same
 945 2013-03-12 01:22:59 <defunctzombie> evoorhees: noted :)
 946 2013-03-12 01:23:08 <thermoman> clients on 0.7 don't have issues with payments (spent double) or anything like this, right? so a market with bitcoin clients running 0.7.2 just has to sit tight and wait, right?
 947 2013-03-12 01:23:09 <Eleuthria> 50.31.149.57:3333 is now on pre-0.8 chain
 948 2013-03-12 01:23:10 <fabrizziop> K1773R: nevermind, thanks
 949 2013-03-12 01:23:15 anachron has joined
 950 2013-03-12 01:23:17 <evoorhees> let the market price in the problem, and the solution ;)
 951 2013-03-12 01:23:33 <DBordello> 0.7.2 is on 225436 now
 952 2013-03-12 01:23:33 <K1773R> fabrizziop, sry but otherwise we have to explain it over and over for everyone
 953 2013-03-12 01:23:35 <Eleuthria> about 5 minutes until two more stratum nodes switch to pre-0.8
 954 2013-03-12 01:23:42 <DBordello> ;;blocks
 955 2013-03-12 01:23:42 <gribble> 225436
 956 2013-03-12 01:23:45 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: thanks.
 957 2013-03-12 01:23:54 bitbitbit has joined
 958 2013-03-12 01:23:57 <B0g4r7> Trading is decoupled from the problem.  No reason to suspend.
 959 2013-03-12 01:24:00 kevin has joined
 960 2013-03-12 01:24:00 <moartr4dez> hmm... but if everyone goes back to 0.7 for now, doesn't that mean a rogue 0.8 miner could still trigger the problem again?
 961 2013-03-12 01:24:12 petr_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 962 2013-03-12 01:24:13 <Luke-Jr> moartr4dez: not without 51%
 963 2013-03-12 01:24:15 <K1773R> moartr4dez, no, aslong the 0.7 is longer
 964 2013-03-12 01:24:16 <con__> only if they get more blocks than everyone else
 965 2013-03-12 01:24:18 <jrmithdobbs> moartr4dez: yes, it does
 966 2013-03-12 01:24:22 kevin is now known as Guest46652
 967 2013-03-12 01:24:27 <warren> non-mining 0.8 is ok, or I should shutdown?
 968 2013-03-12 01:24:28 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
 969 2013-03-12 01:24:29 <kanoi> 0.7 225435 is slush
 970 2013-03-12 01:24:29 <bock> moartr4dez, mayority of miners will be at 0.7, so even if its triggered, it will be orphaned
 971 2013-03-12 01:24:32 <yellowhat-2> i just recently joined, how deep was the fork?
 972 2013-03-12 01:24:34 LightRider has joined
 973 2013-03-12 01:24:35 <K1773R> warren, mine with 0.7
 974 2013-03-12 01:24:41 <jgarzik> non-mining 0.8 is ok
 975 2013-03-12 01:24:42 <Luke-Jr> warren: just ignore confirms
 976 2013-03-12 01:24:42 <jgarzik> just wait
 977 2013-03-12 01:24:47 <kanoi> 0.7 225436 is BTCGuild
 978 2013-03-12 01:24:48 BladeMcCool has joined
 979 2013-03-12 01:24:51 laubzega has joined
 980 2013-03-12 01:24:52 <K1773R> warren, but not p2pool, its broken right now
 981 2013-03-12 01:24:58 <moartr4dez> jrmithdobbs: that's what I thought - because it's a bug in 0.7 (I'm not concerned about the official blockchain, just disruption to miners)
 982 2013-03-12 01:25:00 <jrmithdobbs> moartr4dez: there's more to the fix than just getting the majority of miners on .7
 983 2013-03-12 01:25:21 <K1773R> jrmithdobbs, true, but we have to get the majority back to 0.7 first
 984 2013-03-12 01:25:23 <jrmithdobbs> moartr4dez: but that part has to happen before fixing .8 will matter, once .8 is patched the scenario you describe should not be possible
 985 2013-03-12 01:25:30 <thermoman> 225436 here too on 072
 986 2013-03-12 01:25:35 <Shaded> sipa: Any official communication advising merchants yet?
 987 2013-03-12 01:25:35 beethoven8201 has joined
 988 2013-03-12 01:25:44 petr_ has joined
 989 2013-03-12 01:25:46 <warren> K1773R: I'm mining the pointless coin anyway.
 990 2013-03-12 01:25:48 Xenon481 has joined
 991 2013-03-12 01:25:49 * Luke-Jr ponders who else we need to contact
 992 2013-03-12 01:25:51 <jrmithdobbs> Shaded: don't trust any txns confirmed after 225435 for right now
 993 2013-03-12 01:25:51 <moartr4dez> sounds good - but miners could still run an unpatched 0.8 - so seems like 0.7 needs patching too?
 994 2013-03-12 01:25:55 MDrollette has joined
 995 2013-03-12 01:25:56 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
 996 2013-03-12 01:25:56 <K1773R> Shaded, mtgox annunced a halt so yes
 997 2013-03-12 01:25:57 joehoyle has joined
 998 2013-03-12 01:25:59 <sneak> hi
 999 2013-03-12 01:26:04 <thermoman> bitcoin price will drop
1000 2013-03-12 01:26:08 sawtooth has joined
1001 2013-03-12 01:26:09 <sipa> Shaded: stop processing transactions until the 0.7 chain catches up
1002 2013-03-12 01:26:11 <jouke> sipa: ah, my .7 client is catching up, still got an error though.
1003 2013-03-12 01:26:11 <Shaded> K1773R: I'm talking a github message or somthing
1004 2013-03-12 01:26:25 <K1773R> sneak and thermoman, no OffTopic pls, or you get kicked. ty
1005 2013-03-12 01:26:25 <thermoman> jouke: which error?
1006 2013-03-12 01:26:32 ToryJujube has joined
1007 2013-03-12 01:26:35 <thermoman> K1773R: ok
1008 2013-03-12 01:26:36 <sneak> K1773R: uhh, thanks
1009 2013-03-12 01:26:37 <jrmithdobbs> moartr4dez: no, .7 wont need patching once the chain reconvenes the regression was in .8 due to an oversight in an unintended limitation in the bdb code in .7 (which was removed and replaced in .8)
1010 2013-03-12 01:26:48 <K1773R> Shaded, a warning for bitcoind 0.8 is imminent
1011 2013-03-12 01:26:51 a_meteorite has joined
1012 2013-03-12 01:27:01 <phantomcircuit> the ultimate in edge cases
1013 2013-03-12 01:27:08 <jrmithdobbs> right
1014 2013-03-12 01:27:08 <moartr4dez> ah okay
1015 2013-03-12 01:27:15 <Shaded> Just posted on /r/Bitcoin
1016 2013-03-12 01:27:18 <jrmithdobbs> basically
1017 2013-03-12 01:27:24 <jrmithdobbs> if you have a .8 node running, shut it down
1018 2013-03-12 01:27:34 <jrmithdobbs> if you have a large ammount of hash power, revert to .7.2
1019 2013-03-12 01:27:40 <KuDeTa> shaded, i made a post a few minutes ago so my people can see whats going on easily
1020 2013-03-12 01:27:40 <jouke> thermoman: about the transactions that may not be correct.
1021 2013-03-12 01:27:41 <jrmithdobbs> if neither applies to you, shut up and wait a bit
1022 2013-03-12 01:27:42 <jrmithdobbs> :)
1023 2013-03-12 01:27:49 <HM> lol
1024 2013-03-12 01:27:49 <moartr4dez> ack
1025 2013-03-12 01:27:53 manacit has joined
1026 2013-03-12 01:28:05 <Luke-Jr> jrmithdobbs: ANY mining
1027 2013-03-12 01:28:11 <anachron> when you say "node", do you mean any 0.8 bitcoin-qt instance?
1028 2013-03-12 01:28:13 barmstrong has quit (Quit: barmstrong)
1029 2013-03-12 01:28:20 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: well preferably, but we really just need the majority
1030 2013-03-12 01:28:27 <jrmithdobbs> vast majority
1031 2013-03-12 01:28:33 <phantomcircuit> anachron, 0.8 nodes which are not mining are fine
1032 2013-03-12 01:28:36 <Luke-Jr> jrmithdobbs: yes, but any node mining 0.8 right now will make invalid blocks
1033 2013-03-12 01:28:36 <Kiba> how come we got a bug? Did someone did not notice the change in rule?
1034 2013-03-12 01:28:37 <anachron> Ok.
1035 2013-03-12 01:28:38 <anachron> Thanks.
1036 2013-03-12 01:28:43 surge_ has joined
1037 2013-03-12 01:28:44 <novusordo> what are the proposals to fix this?
1038 2013-03-12 01:28:46 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: false
1039 2013-03-12 01:28:47 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: false
1040 2013-03-12 01:28:47 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: false
1041 2013-03-12 01:28:48 <Luke-Jr> Kiba: nobody knew it was a rule
1042 2013-03-12 01:28:49 <jgarzik> !!!
1043 2013-03-12 01:28:49 <gribble> Error: "!!" is not a valid command.
1044 2013-03-12 01:28:50 <K1773R> for evryone again: everyone downgrade to 0.7 and mine on 0.7 as much as u can, dont use 0.8 ty!
1045 2013-03-12 01:28:52 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: until 0.7 catches up
1046 2013-03-12 01:29:00 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: 0.8 still has soft limit by default
1047 2013-03-12 01:29:07 Surprise has joined
1048 2013-03-12 01:29:09 <jrmithdobbs> novusordo: fix is already underway
1049 2013-03-12 01:29:13 Alternity has joined
1050 2013-03-12 01:29:15 <pizzacat> wow.. internet history and hero's being made :)
1051 2013-03-12 01:29:16 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: but it's building on top of invalid blocks
1052 2013-03-12 01:29:22 <warren> So 0.8 official is fine.
1053 2013-03-12 01:29:25 <jrmithdobbs> novusordo: see above, miners are reconvening on the .7 chain then there will be a fix for .8
1054 2013-03-12 01:29:34 <gmaxwell> Kiba: undocumented bdb behavior. And the 0.8 defaults weren't incompatible with it eithre.
1055 2013-03-12 01:29:38 BTCTrader2 has quit (Quit: BTCTrader2)
1056 2013-03-12 01:29:53 PatrikR has joined
1057 2013-03-12 01:29:53 <novusordo> jrmithdobbs: saw that, i'm curious on what'll be changed in the fix, though
1058 2013-03-12 01:29:56 john__ has joined
1059 2013-03-12 01:29:58 <johnsoft> Quesion - can the alert system show conditional alerts based on client version?
1060 2013-03-12 01:30:04 gordon1470 has joined
1061 2013-03-12 01:30:09 <kanoi> I know - you guys relaly just wanted the difficulty rise to be smaller :D :D j/k j/k
1062 2013-03-12 01:30:10 <K1773R> johnsoft, yes
1063 2013-03-12 01:30:10 pheuter has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1064 2013-03-12 01:30:10 <Luke-Jr> johnsoft: yes, but OT right now. ask more later
1065 2013-03-12 01:30:14 <jrmithdobbs> novusordo: the unknown limit will be added to .8
1066 2013-03-12 01:30:15 <jrmithdobbs> basically
1067 2013-03-12 01:30:19 witwit has joined
1068 2013-03-12 01:30:24 petr_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1069 2013-03-12 01:30:27 <jrmithdobbs> novusordo: or, "previously" unknown, if you want semantic correctness
1070 2013-03-12 01:30:33 McKay has joined
1071 2013-03-12 01:30:33 <K1773R> johnsoft, gavin is working on a warning for 0.8 nodes
1072 2013-03-12 01:30:37 higuise has joined
1073 2013-03-12 01:30:48 <lianj> damn, .8 chain is still fast
1074 2013-03-12 01:30:58 <johnsoft> Right-o. Back to lurking in silence
1075 2013-03-12 01:31:00 Tuxavant_ is now known as Tuxavant
1076 2013-03-12 01:31:09 barmstrong has joined
1077 2013-03-12 01:31:09 x0Jakeyboy0x has joined
1078 2013-03-12 01:31:10 <Kiba> do we still have public keys that uniquely identify satoshi?
1079 2013-03-12 01:31:11 dunand has joined
1080 2013-03-12 01:31:16 <novusordo> jrmithdobbs: so the blocksize will be limited to the size that 0.7 nodes can process? will this create a problem if adoption picks up?
1081 2013-03-12 01:31:21 Chaang-Noi has joined
1082 2013-03-12 01:31:23 <nelisky> can someone put a post up on the forum stating which pools are known to be 0.7
1083 2013-03-12 01:31:28 <jrmithdobbs> Kiba: there are alert keys, and gavin has it, yes
1084 2013-03-12 01:31:29 evbogue has joined
1085 2013-03-12 01:31:32 <K1773R> Kiba, yes but OT
1086 2013-03-12 01:31:36 placeybordeaux has joined
1087 2013-03-12 01:31:39 <Kiba> OT?
1088 2013-03-12 01:31:45 <K1773R> OT = OffTopic
1089 2013-03-12 01:31:46 con__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1090 2013-03-12 01:31:49 <Kiba> sorry
1091 2013-03-12 01:31:51 <nelisky> for those like myself that mine on pools to help out, or more importantly not make matters worst
1092 2013-03-12 01:31:55 <aethero> What about 0.7.2?
1093 2013-03-12 01:31:57 surge_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1094 2013-03-12 01:32:04 <K1773R> aethero, its fine, continue mining on it
1095 2013-03-12 01:32:04 <thermoman> aethero: 0.7.2 is fine
1096 2013-03-12 01:32:09 <fabrizziop> wait a minute, from what I read on the forums there was a soft limit at 250kb and a hard one at 1 mb, for all versions of the client, so what did exactly happen to screw the 0.8 guys out?
1097 2013-03-12 01:32:15 samurai1200 has joined
1098 2013-03-12 01:32:19 fruinse has joined
1099 2013-03-12 01:32:22 <K1773R> fabrizziop, again pls read the history
1100 2013-03-12 01:32:30 mo has joined
1101 2013-03-12 01:32:37 <Chaang-Noi> link to history or info?
1102 2013-03-12 01:32:42 <aethero> How far back does transaction reversal go?
1103 2013-03-12 01:32:42 <fabrizziop> K1773R: read it but all the fud isn't allowing me to understand :(
1104 2013-03-12 01:32:42 <mo> fghjkl
1105 2013-03-12 01:32:46 <placeybordeaux> Is there any reading material on what the bug in 0.8 is? I didn't see a ticket on it
1106 2013-03-12 01:32:47 aphorism has joined
1107 2013-03-12 01:32:48 collection has joined
1108 2013-03-12 01:32:50 coqui33 has joined
1109 2013-03-12 01:32:53 mo is now known as Guest12564
1110 2013-03-12 01:32:53 <Eleuthria> The bug is in 0.7
1111 2013-03-12 01:32:58 <Eleuthria> But 0.8 triggered it
1112 2013-03-12 01:33:02 <thermoman> fabrizziop: die 0.7 was "screwed out"
1113 2013-03-12 01:33:07 mandaru has joined
1114 2013-03-12 01:33:14 <samurai1200> i'm hearing some hard fork FUD... anyone got a link w/ info?
1115 2013-03-12 01:33:18 iamaleksey has joined
1116 2013-03-12 01:33:21 hctib has joined
1117 2013-03-12 01:33:28 <K1773R> fabrizziop, its a bug in BDB thats it, 0.8 hasnt it. this created the fork
1118 2013-03-12 01:33:36 hawks5999 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1119 2013-03-12 01:33:38 <Luke-Jr> samurai1200: depending on what you hear, it may not be FUD sadly
1120 2013-03-12 01:33:40 <kanoi> samurai1200 block 225429 0.7 vs 0.8
1121 2013-03-12 01:33:45 <Luke-Jr> https://support.mtgox.com/entries/21477395-Bitcoin-blockchain-issue-bitcoin-deposits-temporarily-suspended
1122 2013-03-12 01:33:49 igoooor has joined
1123 2013-03-12 01:33:50 LargoG has joined
1124 2013-03-12 01:33:53 Casimir1904 has joined
1125 2013-03-12 01:33:55 davout has joined
1126 2013-03-12 01:33:56 davout has quit (Changing host)
1127 2013-03-12 01:33:56 davout has joined
1128 2013-03-12 01:34:02 <samurai1200> thx
1129 2013-03-12 01:34:06 <not-applicable> bitfloor has also suspended btc transactions because of this
1130 2013-03-12 01:34:06 <K1773R> this sucks, i gotta go soon... sry
1131 2013-03-12 01:34:07 cespanar has joined
1132 2013-03-12 01:34:07 <samurai1200> ....rough...
1133 2013-03-12 01:34:11 ynx has joined
1134 2013-03-12 01:34:12 <igoooor> any admin from bit coin-24.com here
1135 2013-03-12 01:34:17 <GMP> so, you propose to just outmine 000000000000015c50b165fcdd33556f8b44800c5298943ac70b112df480c023, or make it explicitly invalid? it doesnt break any rules (i think)...
1136 2013-03-12 01:34:21 <K1773R> igoooor, OffTopic
1137 2013-03-12 01:34:23 spaceman_spiff_ has joined
1138 2013-03-12 01:34:25 <Luke-Jr> anyone know how to reach 50BTC?
1139 2013-03-12 01:34:26 bitobsessed has joined
1140 2013-03-12 01:34:29 <davout> i wanted to go to bed, what's this all about ?
1141 2013-03-12 01:34:30 lifeboat has joined
1142 2013-03-12 01:34:31 x893092kz has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1143 2013-03-12 01:34:32 emeitner has joined
1144 2013-03-12 01:34:47 jey has joined
1145 2013-03-12 01:34:50 <K1773R> davout, if you dont mine just go to bed, otherwise donwgrade to 0.7 and continue mining, thats it
1146 2013-03-12 01:34:51 <MC-Droid> A final bitter curse from BDB it seems
1147 2013-03-12 01:34:53 <davout> my bitcoinds are stopped
1148 2013-03-12 01:34:56 <lianj> davout: if you run a miner/pool, downgrade to .7 asap, if not, wait
1149 2013-03-12 01:34:56 <sneak> coinbase has suspended sales of btc
1150 2013-03-12 01:35:01 <davout> ok
1151 2013-03-12 01:35:03 EricCartman has joined
1152 2013-03-12 01:35:04 qqq123 has joined
1153 2013-03-12 01:35:05 <davout> i run 0.6
1154 2013-03-12 01:35:11 <lianj> davout: and dont trust confirmed coins if youre on .8 nodes
1155 2013-03-12 01:35:14 ralphtheninja has joined
1156 2013-03-12 01:35:16 <K1773R> davout, thats fine too
1157 2013-03-12 01:35:19 igoooor has quit (Client Quit)
1158 2013-03-12 01:35:20 <etotheipi_> in the future, we should tell all important people to go to #bitcoin-[first-4-hex-bytes-of-sha256(some-question-everyone-who-understands-the-problem-knows-the-answer-to)]
1159 2013-03-12 01:35:25 BTCTrader2 has joined
1160 2013-03-12 01:35:37 Sep_ has joined
1161 2013-03-12 01:35:38 <jrmithdobbs> etotheipi_: no
1162 2013-03-12 01:35:42 <K1773R> etotheipi_, signed!
1163 2013-03-12 01:35:43 <etotheipi_> even if someone else knows the answer, it'll take the devs like 2sec to compute it
1164 2013-03-12 01:35:52 <jrmithdobbs> etotheipi_: even if it's noisey these discussions should happen in public
1165 2013-03-12 01:35:55 <jrmithdobbs> etotheipi_: when at all possible
1166 2013-03-12 01:35:59 smracer has joined
1167 2013-03-12 01:36:00 <nanotube> Luke-Jr: they seem to have a contact email on site.
1168 2013-03-12 01:36:02 <etotheipi_> jrmithdobbs: it can be public
1169 2013-03-12 01:36:02 Ashaman has joined
1170 2013-03-12 01:36:05 <K1773R> jrmithdobbs, no, they should be released afterwards
1171 2013-03-12 01:36:08 <jey> +m could be a solution -- allow spectators but minimize noise.
1172 2013-03-12 01:36:11 <etotheipi_> K1773R: ++
1173 2013-03-12 01:36:12 <holorga> etotheipi_: you just use +m
1174 2013-03-12 01:36:13 <nanotube> Luke-Jr:  pool@50btc.com
1175 2013-03-12 01:36:14 <davout> ok, so basically <0.8 = no fucks given ?
1176 2013-03-12 01:36:14 <jrmithdobbs> K1773R: this isn't a security problem, so no, disagree
1177 2013-03-12 01:36:22 Kiba has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
1178 2013-03-12 01:36:24 oio has joined
1179 2013-03-12 01:36:24 <egecko> transparency ftw
1180 2013-03-12 01:36:26 <Shaded> MagicalTux: Switch your post to link to this message: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=CAPg%2BsBjm%2Be%3DA%2BedSRHXU7JSqyfSc4hou_SRdQHF48xhKQGA4zA%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=bitcoin-development
1181 2013-03-12 01:36:28 <lianj> davout: for now, yes
1182 2013-03-12 01:36:30 tophensen has joined
1183 2013-03-12 01:36:36 plumbob has joined
1184 2013-03-12 01:36:40 <K1773R> all these FUD and OffTopic ppls hurt the switchover process, so please just stfu. i know this is harsh but u help to resolve it faster
1185 2013-03-12 01:36:49 <davout> lianj: thanks a lot
1186 2013-03-12 01:36:50 arg has joined
1187 2013-03-12 01:36:50 <bernard75> how about giving some statement before the shit really hits the fan???
1188 2013-03-12 01:36:53 peter___ has joined
1189 2013-03-12 01:36:54 <bock> wow, that was spooky
1190 2013-03-12 01:37:02 <ynx> 2late
1191 2013-03-12 01:37:04 gruez has joined
1192 2013-03-12 01:37:07 <andrew12> dat alert
1193 2013-03-12 01:37:07 <jrmithdobbs> bernard75: there's no shit to hit the fan and statements have already been made
1194 2013-03-12 01:37:18 iamaleksey has left ("["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]")
1195 2013-03-12 01:37:18 <jrmithdobbs> just chill out and wait, jesus
1196 2013-03-12 01:37:25 <bernard75> on pre millenium irc ;)
1197 2013-03-12 01:37:27 saivann has joined
1198 2013-03-12 01:37:28 <jgarzik> again, take chatter to #bitcoin
1199 2013-03-12 01:37:30 camolist has joined
1200 2013-03-12 01:37:31 <jgarzik> kicking will occur
1201 2013-03-12 01:37:37 <K1773R> jrmithdobbs, the devs have to chat someone else because ppls are asking questions over and over again and chat in here, this is not a chat channel
1202 2013-03-12 01:37:38 oio has quit (Client Quit)
1203 2013-03-12 01:37:42 <MC-Droid> Concise alert...
1204 2013-03-12 01:37:50 Hasimir- is now known as Hasimir
1205 2013-03-12 01:37:50 Hasimir has quit (Changing host)
1206 2013-03-12 01:37:50 Hasimir has joined
1207 2013-03-12 01:37:50 <jrmithdobbs> K1773R: take it to #bitcoin
1208 2013-03-12 01:37:55 <slush> hi
1209 2013-03-12 01:38:06 <Luke-Jr> nanotube: email too slow for this
1210 2013-03-12 01:38:09 <gmaxwell> This is the email I sent out on it, http://pastebin.com/uUacVNHK
1211 2013-03-12 01:38:13 jey has left ()
1212 2013-03-12 01:38:13 <jgarzik> slush: we are switching to 0.7 chain
1213 2013-03-12 01:38:14 jabawok has joined
1214 2013-03-12 01:38:15 <K1773R> jrmithdobbs, all i do is helping the devs/ops to minimize FUD/OffTopic
1215 2013-03-12 01:38:19 oio has joined
1216 2013-03-12 01:38:20 <Diablo-D3> wtf happened?
1217 2013-03-12 01:38:22 <jgarzik> slush: due to 0.7 bug
1218 2013-03-12 01:38:27 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: see list
1219 2013-03-12 01:38:31 <kanoi> slush already got the 2nd last 0.7 block
1220 2013-03-12 01:38:35 Dayofswords has joined
1221 2013-03-12 01:38:37 <Diablo-D3> Im not subscribed to the list atm
1222 2013-03-12 01:38:52 e11ty has joined
1223 2013-03-12 01:38:53 kadoban has joined
1224 2013-03-12 01:38:56 tjb0607 has joined
1225 2013-03-12 01:38:57 <nanotube> Luke-Jr: yea but that's all i got. :P
1226 2013-03-12 01:39:04 <camolist> im headed out in a few. what pool should i be mining at to help the correct side as soon as possible
1227 2013-03-12 01:39:11 <K1773R> Diablo-D3, BDB bug in 0.7 which couldnt validate a block with alot of TX's therefore creating a hardfork between 0.8 nodes and below
1228 2013-03-12 01:39:17 <Diablo-D3> camolist: you should be on p2pool anyhow
1229 2013-03-12 01:39:20 keewee has joined
1230 2013-03-12 01:39:21 oru has joined
1231 2013-03-12 01:39:23 <Diablo-D3> K1773R: oh ffs.
1232 2013-03-12 01:39:28 <Diablo-D3> how did that happen
1233 2013-03-12 01:39:40 <gruez> i blame satoshidice
1234 2013-03-12 01:39:41 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: hidden limitation in bdb was causing a max txn per block limit that noone realised
1235 2013-03-12 01:39:42 <jouke> For information, my .7 is at 225436, and errormessage is about displayed transactions may not be correct.
1236 2013-03-12 01:39:53 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: (bdb default value)
1237 2013-03-12 01:39:54 <slush> jgarzik: restarting pool with 0.7 bitcoind will make fix?
1238 2013-03-12 01:39:57 <Diablo-D3> fucking bdb
1239 2013-03-12 01:39:59 theymos has joined
1240 2013-03-12 01:40:02 <theymos> What's going on?
1241 2013-03-12 01:40:03 tachang has joined
1242 2013-03-12 01:40:09 <jgarzik> slush: and reindex
1243 2013-03-12 01:40:11 <K1773R> Diablo-D3, bug in BDB becuase of noth enough locks to process somany transactions
1244 2013-03-12 01:40:11 <jouke> My .8 is at 225448 and has the warning message as error
1245 2013-03-12 01:40:20 <B0g4r7> Needs unit tests.
1246 2013-03-12 01:40:24 wsc has joined
1247 2013-03-12 01:40:24 <Luke-Jr> GMP: are you using bdb 4.8 or something else?
1248 2013-03-12 01:40:27 jtibble_ has joined
1249 2013-03-12 01:40:28 <beethoven8201> what is bdb?
1250 2013-03-12 01:40:30 \mSg has joined
1251 2013-03-12 01:40:32 joshsm1 has joined
1252 2013-03-12 01:40:32 {blue} has joined
1253 2013-03-12 01:40:35 <K1773R> theymos,  BDB bug in 0.7 which couldnt validate a block with alot of TX's therefore creating a hardfork between 0.8 nodes and below
1254 2013-03-12 01:40:36 <Luke-Jr> theymos: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=CAPg%2BsBjm%2Be%3DA%2BedSRHXU7JSqyfSc4hou_SRdQHF48xhKQGA4zA%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=bitcoin-development
1255 2013-03-12 01:40:36 <jgarzik> theymos: 0.7 BDB bug, caused 0.7/0.8 forkl
1256 2013-03-12 01:40:38 <davout> beethoven8201: berkeley db
1257 2013-03-12 01:40:38 watchcomp has joined
1258 2013-03-12 01:40:38 <Diablo-D3> well my 0.7 is 2012 blocks behind
1259 2013-03-12 01:40:41 Ranvier_ has joined
1260 2013-03-12 01:40:42 rexdart has joined
1261 2013-03-12 01:40:43 <beethoven8201> ah
1262 2013-03-12 01:40:47 Herodes has joined
1263 2013-03-12 01:40:50 Yamashi has joined
1264 2013-03-12 01:40:51 jimrandomh has joined
1265 2013-03-12 01:40:58 <Diablo-D3> so how do we fix this and make sure it never happens again?
1266 2013-03-12 01:41:00 cantIntoCode has joined
1267 2013-03-12 01:41:03 <K1773R> Diablo-D3, stay on 0.7 and mine as much u can on the 0.7 chain, ty
1268 2013-03-12 01:41:05 perezd has joined
1269 2013-03-12 01:41:14 <GMP> Luke-Jr: i checked again, it works ok on official binary 0.5.0.1
1270 2013-03-12 01:41:14 walruscode has joined
1271 2013-03-12 01:41:15 <hasha> u guys may wanna +k this chan asap
1272 2013-03-12 01:41:16 <beethoven8201> out of curiosity, why do we use bdb as opposed to , say, sqlite?
1273 2013-03-12 01:41:20 <hasha> and +m
1274 2013-03-12 01:41:20 digbit has joined
1275 2013-03-12 01:41:22 <K1773R> Diablo-D3, downgrade to 0.7 so 0.7 is the mainchain again and anfterwards fix the problem
1276 2013-03-12 01:41:25 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: 0.7 has no reindex :P
1277 2013-03-12 01:41:29 <slush> jgarzik: reindex? Start with -reindex?
1278 2013-03-12 01:41:31 <D34TH> ouch
1279 2013-03-12 01:41:33 <beethoven8201> ;;voiceme
1280 2013-03-12 01:41:37 daughterly has joined
1281 2013-03-12 01:41:39 <Diablo-D3> K1773R: yeah I just restarted into 0.7, but Im way behind on blocks
1282 2013-03-12 01:41:47 <CodeShark> can we patch .8 to have the same behavior as .7 so that miners don't have to resync?
1283 2013-03-12 01:41:47 <davout> beethoven8201: sqlite is relational bdb is key-value, probably not the right moment to ask questions
1284 2013-03-12 01:41:49 cryostasix has joined
1285 2013-03-12 01:41:51 <Luke-Jr> slush: did you delete blkindex.dat?
1286 2013-03-12 01:41:52 <phantomcircuit> sipa, is the limit here a soft or hard limit?
1287 2013-03-12 01:41:54 <K1773R> beethoven8201, OffTopic chatters will be kicked
1288 2013-03-12 01:41:56 <Luke-Jr> slush: if not, just run it and it'll sync
1289 2013-03-12 01:42:01 <jgarzik> slush: that was for illustration.  0.7 -> 0.8 switched database
1290 2013-03-12 01:42:04 Chaang-Noi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1291 2013-03-12 01:42:06 <knotwork> if mining using p2pool, does it even matter which bitcoind you are using? or does p2pool design the blocks?
1292 2013-03-12 01:42:06 Springy has joined
1293 2013-03-12 01:42:06 <K1773R> CodeShark, yes, but we have to donwgrade first
1294 2013-03-12 01:42:11 <slush> Luke-Jr: no, I copied 0.7 blockchain elsewhere
1295 2013-03-12 01:42:14 <jgarzik> slush: you must restart with blocks updated into old db
1296 2013-03-12 01:42:16 <K1773R> knotwork, p2pool is broken, dont mine on it
1297 2013-03-12 01:42:17 <slush> So I have image from few days ago
1298 2013-03-12 01:42:18 suckitpunk has joined
1299 2013-03-12 01:42:22 <jgarzik> slush: -loadblock=
1300 2013-03-12 01:42:26 Shaded has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1301 2013-03-12 01:42:28 sgtvs4tg has joined
1302 2013-03-12 01:42:28 <jgarzik> slush: or a 0.7 image, sure
1303 2013-03-12 01:42:29 Springy is now known as Guest49672
1304 2013-03-12 01:42:40 <gruez> why aren't we using 0.8?
1305 2013-03-12 01:42:41 <K1773R> knotwork, p2pool will be fine atleast 24h hour after the issue got resolved
1306 2013-03-12 01:42:42 jankins has joined
1307 2013-03-12 01:42:42 <slush> jgarzik: ok, so just syncing 0.7 blockchain will do the job
1308 2013-03-12 01:42:43 <gruez> it's longer...
1309 2013-03-12 01:42:49 qazwsx has joined
1310 2013-03-12 01:42:52 Xenon481_ has joined
1311 2013-03-12 01:42:52 <knotwork> I am merged-mining with one 5870, hardly affect bitcoin at all bit need bitcoind working so all the umpteen merged chains will be mined
1312 2013-03-12 01:42:53 <gruez> just get everyone to update
1313 2013-03-12 01:42:55 <K1773R> gruez, since its bugged, please read the history ty
1314 2013-03-12 01:42:55 <jgarzik> slush: yes
1315 2013-03-12 01:43:03 <gruez> K1773R: i know it's bugged
1316 2013-03-12 01:43:07 piuk_ has joined
1317 2013-03-12 01:43:08 <gruez> but why revert
1318 2013-03-12 01:43:12 <jouke> piuk: did you switch blockchain.info to .8?
1319 2013-03-12 01:43:13 <Luke-Jr> gruez: the 0.7 chain is compatible with all clients
1320 2013-03-12 01:43:16 jasonharty24_ has joined
1321 2013-03-12 01:43:16 jaeyjay has joined
1322 2013-03-12 01:43:17 KuDeTa_ has joined
1323 2013-03-12 01:43:17 <gruez> it's a great chance to get all the 0.3 people to update
1324 2013-03-12 01:43:23 <JWU42> ah ha - found an old blockchain hiding
1325 2013-03-12 01:43:26 <K1773R> gruez, just read the history, i dont want to explain it over and over again ffs
1326 2013-03-12 01:43:26 <Luke-Jr> jouke: hope not
1327 2013-03-12 01:43:26 Jah_ has joined
1328 2013-03-12 01:43:28 gesell has joined
1329 2013-03-12 01:43:29 <sneak> gruez: that's not how you do software, sorry
1330 2013-03-12 01:43:29 rexdart_ has joined
1331 2013-03-12 01:43:31 <theymos> gruez: It's not safe to move everyone to software which hasn't been tested for very long, especially when it has so many core modifications.
1332 2013-03-12 01:43:37 jimbit has joined
1333 2013-03-12 01:43:37 <sipa> gruez: if 0.3 haven't upgraded by now, they won't
1334 2013-03-12 01:43:43 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, can you answer this: is the limit here a soft or hard limit?
1335 2013-03-12 01:43:44 <knotwork> is there a blurb somewhere saying what the heck is actually bugged/wrong/broken ?
1336 2013-03-12 01:43:52 <perezd> check reddit, stop spamming.
1337 2013-03-12 01:43:53 sigmasquared has joined
1338 2013-03-12 01:43:53 <sipa> phantomcircuit: what limit are you talking about?
1339 2013-03-12 01:43:53 <gmaxwell> gruez: this is the safe thing to do.
1340 2013-03-12 01:43:53 <piuk_> jouke: I patched it, I want to record all blocks for analytics purposes. The merchant notifications API has been disable.d
1341 2013-03-12 01:43:55 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: hard
1342 2013-03-12 01:43:55 <gavinandresen> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152030
1343 2013-03-12 01:43:56 _Ranvier has joined
1344 2013-03-12 01:43:57 <jgarzik> knotwork: we don't know yet.  please wait.
1345 2013-03-12 01:43:59 <gruez> phantomcircuit: berley db limit
1346 2013-03-12 01:44:01 fruinse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1347 2013-03-12 01:44:01 schmoe has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1348 2013-03-12 01:44:01 pizzacat has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1349 2013-03-12 01:44:01 komododragon_ has joined
1350 2013-03-12 01:44:04 <gmaxwell> knotwork: a complete and detailed analysis will take time.
1351 2013-03-12 01:44:04 <gruez> *berkley
1352 2013-03-12 01:44:05 <{blue}> +M this shit
1353 2013-03-12 01:44:05 <K1773R> ty gavin
1354 2013-03-12 01:44:05 <Sydna> knotwork: there's an 0.8 block that's too big, and 0.7 blocks reject it
1355 2013-03-12 01:44:06 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Quit: bitcoinbulletin)
1356 2013-03-12 01:44:07 hexxx has joined
1357 2013-03-12 01:44:08 sanchaz has joined
1358 2013-03-12 01:44:11 <samurai1200> this is vurry exciting =)
1359 2013-03-12 01:44:22 <holorga> this channel could really use +m
1360 2013-03-12 01:44:25 pizzacat has joined
1361 2013-03-12 01:44:26 <K1773R> samurai1200, OffTopic = kicked
1362 2013-03-12 01:44:26 oio has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1363 2013-03-12 01:44:26 Xenon481 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1364 2013-03-12 01:44:26 chainmedic has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1365 2013-03-12 01:44:26 alexbeal has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1366 2013-03-12 01:44:29 <knotwork> too big as in over 1/4 meg or over 1/2 meg?
1367 2013-03-12 01:44:38 <Sydna> knotwork: not sure
1368 2013-03-12 01:44:39 Tritonio has joined
1369 2013-03-12 01:44:40 <nanotube> knotwork: both :)
1370 2013-03-12 01:44:42 <nanotube> it seems.
1371 2013-03-12 01:44:45 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, it's a limit on the number of locks being used right, that seems like something which would not be entirely consistent
1372 2013-03-12 01:44:45 gywky has joined
1373 2013-03-12 01:44:51 rexdart has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1374 2013-03-12 01:44:51 Ranvier_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1376 2013-03-12 01:44:51 mandaru has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1377 2013-03-12 01:44:51 gordon1470 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1378 2013-03-12 01:44:51 KuDeTa has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1379 2013-03-12 01:44:54 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: correct
1380 2013-03-12 01:44:56 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: some reason non-miners with 0.7 shouldn't upgrade? :P
1381 2013-03-12 01:44:56 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1382 2013-03-12 01:44:57 Whitez- has joined
1383 2013-03-12 01:44:57 <K1773R> knotwork, tomany TX's
1384 2013-03-12 01:45:07 SyntaxBlitz has joined
1385 2013-03-12 01:45:08 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: but likely just too many transactions
1386 2013-03-12 01:45:13 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: as that's all wrapped in a BDB txn
1387 2013-03-12 01:45:16 collection has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1388 2013-03-12 01:45:16 Guest12564 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1389 2013-03-12 01:45:16 placeybordeaux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1390 2013-03-12 01:45:16 jon98837 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1391 2013-03-12 01:45:17 bierrebonbon has joined
1392 2013-03-12 01:45:19 <K1773R> Luke-Jr, of course, so the distribution of the bad chain is getting slower
1393 2013-03-12 01:45:21 <jgarzik> a single BDB transaction
1394 2013-03-12 01:45:21 Jah_ has quit (Client Quit)
1395 2013-03-12 01:45:21 redeper has joined
1396 2013-03-12 01:45:25 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: because they'll be advertising the bad block in the meantime and possibly lock up more .7 clients until the chain is longer
1397 2013-03-12 01:45:27 Deux_ has joined
1398 2013-03-12 01:45:31 <slush> errors" : "EXCEPTION: 11DbException       \nDb::get: Cannot allocate memory       \nbitcoin in ProcessMessages()       \n"
1399 2013-03-12 01:45:31 vampireb has joined
1400 2013-03-12 01:45:36 oio has joined
1401 2013-03-12 01:45:36 <K1773R> slush, ignore it
1402 2013-03-12 01:45:36 <slush> I got this on .7 already
1403 2013-03-12 01:45:38 denis has joined
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1406 2013-03-12 01:45:41 Deux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1408 2013-03-12 01:45:43 piuk_ is now known as piuk
1409 2013-03-12 01:45:45 <kritCoin> wWHO WAS THE DICK IN THIS CHAT WHO SAID ORACLE SUCKS
1410 2013-03-12 01:45:50 <Diablo-D3> Im still trying to update the chain
1411 2013-03-12 01:45:51 hakm has joined
1412 2013-03-12 01:45:54 whooper has joined
1413 2013-03-12 01:45:54 <Diablo-D3> kritCoin: me. I said oracle sucks.
1414 2013-03-12 01:45:56 <K1773R> kritCoin, OffTopic = kick
1415 2013-03-12 01:46:00 <Herodes> I am running 0.8 on a stand alone node, should it be downgraded ?
1416 2013-03-12 01:46:01 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: damnit man
1417 2013-03-12 01:46:01 <knotwork> well seems we have a hard fork over block size already might as well bite the bullet? :D we
1418 2013-03-12 01:46:06 blockchainz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1419 2013-03-12 01:46:14 <gruez> knotwork: not a hard fork
1420 2013-03-12 01:46:15 LainZ has joined
1421 2013-03-12 01:46:16 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: c'mon man, not right now
1422 2013-03-12 01:46:20 <sipa> Herodes: are you a miner or a merchant?
1423 2013-03-12 01:46:20 <gruez> only because of bdb
1424 2013-03-12 01:46:21 <nanotube> Herodes: if you're not mining, just sit tight.
1425 2013-03-12 01:46:22 <jgarzik> knotwork: not now
1426 2013-03-12 01:46:27 kritCoin has joined
1427 2013-03-12 01:46:30 <jgarzik> block size chatter to #bitcoin
1428 2013-03-12 01:46:31 Guest49672 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1429 2013-03-12 01:46:31 <nanotube> Herodes: but don't accept transactions...
1430 2013-03-12 01:46:32 <K1773R> knotwork, its not the size of the block, its because tomany TXs are in it resulting in a unknown BDB bug
1431 2013-03-12 01:46:35 <kritCoin> hey
1432 2013-03-12 01:46:36 casshern has joined
1433 2013-03-12 01:46:37 <Herodes> sipa: I run merchant services, however - they're not active now. Not mining.
1434 2013-03-12 01:46:50 <jrmithdobbs> K1773R: not a bdb bug
1435 2013-03-12 01:46:51 <kritCoin> how many times did i say "USE A PROFESSIONAL DB"?
1436 2013-03-12 01:46:52 <Herodes> nano: got it, thanks.
1437 2013-03-12 01:46:54 fontsa has joined
1438 2013-03-12 01:46:57 GGG has joined
1439 2013-03-12 01:46:58 <slush> what is the last valid block in 0.7?
1440 2013-03-12 01:46:59 <K1773R> Herodes, turn off 0.8 node an revert to 0.7, only trust the 0.7 chain
1441 2013-03-12 01:47:03 kekekekekeke has joined
1442 2013-03-12 01:47:05 <jrmithdobbs> kritCoin: shut up it's not a bdb bug
1443 2013-03-12 01:47:06 <Diablo-D3> kritCoin: thats why 0.8 switched to leveldb
1444 2013-03-12 01:47:07 <knotwork> ahh bdb! nice its not bitcoin problem but bdb problem that is nice if true
1445 2013-03-12 01:47:07 Chaang-Noi has joined
1446 2013-03-12 01:47:09 <K1773R> jgarzik, ban him too, ty
1447 2013-03-12 01:47:13 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: its NOT a bdb bug?
1448 2013-03-12 01:47:14 <Jezzz> slush: 29
1449 2013-03-12 01:47:16 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: no
1450 2013-03-12 01:47:19 <forrestv> feature request for bitcoind: have a "mark block bad" RPC call :p
1451 2013-03-12 01:47:21 kerigan has joined
1452 2013-03-12 01:47:23 SteveDekorte has joined
1453 2013-03-12 01:47:25 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: then it was our fault? =/
1454 2013-03-12 01:47:27 <jgarzik> forrestv: agreed
1455 2013-03-12 01:47:27 {blue} has left ("bye")
1456 2013-03-12 01:47:28 <Jezzz> slush: 225429
1457 2013-03-12 01:47:28 <jgarzik> +1
1458 2013-03-12 01:47:31 goinDat has joined
1459 2013-03-12 01:47:33 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: it's a default config param that noone was aware was affecting txn count limit per block
1460 2013-03-12 01:47:34 evbogue has quit ()
1461 2013-03-12 01:47:35 <K1773R> Diablo-D3, just FUD, i got him on my ignore list alread
1462 2013-03-12 01:47:35 mebad has joined
1463 2013-03-12 01:47:36 <jrmithdobbs> but turns out it was
1464 2013-03-12 01:47:38 <gesell> can someone mute this channel so those interesting in watching the pprogress can do so without all of the odd comments
1465 2013-03-12 01:47:41 <sipa> Jezzz: eh, should be higher than that
1466 2013-03-12 01:47:41 smellis has joined
1467 2013-03-12 01:47:42 <KuDeTa_> I've been updating as i get news on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1a4ab0/alert_payattention_a_block_was_mined_that_was_too/ feel free to point people if they are asking
1468 2013-03-12 01:47:45 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: and its too late to fix this?
1469 2013-03-12 01:47:48 `Springy has joined
1470 2013-03-12 01:47:51 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: so ya, it's a bdb USAGE bug, not a bdb bug :(
1471 2013-03-12 01:47:54 alexwaters has joined
1472 2013-03-12 01:48:00 pushcx has joined
1473 2013-03-12 01:48:03 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: well, "fixing" would cause the hardfork situation we see
1474 2013-03-12 01:48:08 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: so, yes
1475 2013-03-12 01:48:10 Quetzalcoatl_ has joined
1476 2013-03-12 01:48:12 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: shit =/
1477 2013-03-12 01:48:19 <Diablo-D3> so whats the maximum block size then?
1478 2013-03-12 01:48:19 <Eleuthria> I could use a +v as well..
1479 2013-03-12 01:48:19 mrb_ has joined
1480 2013-03-12 01:48:20 <joshsm1>  how many times did i say "USE A PROFESSIONAL DB"?
1481 2013-03-12 01:48:30 <Diablo-D3> joshsm1: WE DID SWITCH
1482 2013-03-12 01:48:31 <Diablo-D3> argh!
1483 2013-03-12 01:48:33 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: for now we're gonna have to put the same limitation into .8 explicitly (after everything reconverges)
1484 2013-03-12 01:48:35 Xenon481 has joined
1485 2013-03-12 01:48:39 <CodeShark> guys, this is not the time for "I told ya so"
1486 2013-03-12 01:48:41 TBZ1-SanDiego is now known as TheButterZone
1487 2013-03-12 01:48:43 mrb_ is now known as Guest93531
1488 2013-03-12 01:48:45 joshsm has joined
1489 2013-03-12 01:48:46 uubu has joined
1490 2013-03-12 01:48:48 <Jezzz> CodeShark: no
1491 2013-03-12 01:48:51 <K1773R> +m too pls and set the topic to a warning with a little status message, that should help
1492 2013-03-12 01:48:51 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: then i guess we can talk about the future since we now know about this and that fixing it is a hard fork
1493 2013-03-12 01:48:52 Deux has joined
1494 2013-03-12 01:48:53 <Diablo-D3> CodeShark: no, cause if anyone gets to do that, its me
1495 2013-03-12 01:48:55 Murderscene has joined
1496 2013-03-12 01:48:56 jtibble has joined
1497 2013-03-12 01:48:56 Ranvier has joined
1498 2013-03-12 01:48:57 pizzacat_ has joined
1499 2013-03-12 01:48:57 fsdggg has joined
1500 2013-03-12 01:48:58 <novusordo> Eleuthria: has BTC-Guild been switched to .7? (or was it ever even on .8?)
1501 2013-03-12 01:49:04 <Ferroh> joshsm: You're wrong.
1502 2013-03-12 01:49:05 <jouke> My 7.2 client is still showing that transactions may not me correct, anything I could do about that?
1503 2013-03-12 01:49:05 <Eleuthria> It was on 0.8
1504 2013-03-12 01:49:09 <K1773R> novusordo, yes
1505 2013-03-12 01:49:09 <Eleuthria> i'm moving all the servers right now
1506 2013-03-12 01:49:13 <Diablo-D3> CodeShark: I said bdb sucked before bitcoin ever existed
1507 2013-03-12 01:49:13 dcaordnrt has joined
1508 2013-03-12 01:49:14 <sipa> jouke: expected
1509 2013-03-12 01:49:16 kekekeke123 has joined
1510 2013-03-12 01:49:17 <K1773R> just wait until Eleuthria is done
1511 2013-03-12 01:49:17 f0rkd has joined
1512 2013-03-12 01:49:19 KuDeTa has joined
1513 2013-03-12 01:49:20 <jrmithdobbs> K1773R: i don't know who you are but stop littering things up with your attempt to play #bitcoin-dev gestapo already
1514 2013-03-12 01:49:20 <Diablo-D3> CodeShark: and now, it finally, bit us in the ass.
1515 2013-03-12 01:49:25 bitobsessed has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1516 2013-03-12 01:49:31 aethero is now known as cryptochrist
1517 2013-03-12 01:49:32 <sipa> jouke: you will keep seeing the warning until the 0.7 chain catches up
1518 2013-03-12 01:49:34 <slush> the blocksync is so fucking slow
1519 2013-03-12 01:49:38 <jouke> sipa: ok.
1520 2013-03-12 01:49:40 <Luke-Jr> +v MagicalTux plz
1521 2013-03-12 01:49:45 <Graet> ozcoinhas turned off 0.8 nodes till they are downgraded, what a fuckup
1522 2013-03-12 01:49:45 jamoes has joined
1523 2013-03-12 01:49:46 prurigro has joined
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1528 2013-03-12 01:49:51 brie has joined
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1530 2013-03-12 01:49:54 random-user has joined
1531 2013-03-12 01:49:55 <beethoven8201> Can someone create a channel for announcements from the dev community?
1532 2013-03-12 01:49:55 <DBordello> Should we rebroadcast all transactions in the 0.80 chain?
1533 2013-03-12 01:49:56 Tril has joined
1534 2013-03-12 01:49:57 bot38 has joined
1535 2013-03-12 01:49:57 cryptochrist is now known as aethero
1536 2013-03-12 01:49:59 Cache_Money1 has joined
1537 2013-03-12 01:50:03 <novusordo> does anyone know of any pool operators who haven't been contacted?
1538 2013-03-12 01:50:07 \mSg has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1539 2013-03-12 01:50:11 gweedo has joined
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1543 2013-03-12 01:50:17 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs, sipa, jgarzik, gmaxwell: so whats the maximum number of tx in a block now?
1544 2013-03-12 01:50:27 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: 4k iirc
1545 2013-03-12 01:50:28 \mSg has joined
1546 2013-03-12 01:50:29 t4nk136 has joined
1547 2013-03-12 01:50:30 <K1773R> beethoven8201, again wait until its resolved, asking and asking over again hurts only at the moment, ty
1548 2013-03-12 01:50:33 <knotwork> so 0.8's need to do -maxblockzie=500k RPC call?
1549 2013-03-12 01:50:34 bitcoinbulletin has joined
1550 2013-03-12 01:50:34 <jgarzik> DBordello: the client will behave just fine, once mining switches to the 0.7 chain
1551 2013-03-12 01:50:35 Shaded has joined
1552 2013-03-12 01:50:39 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: that part of the discussion was like 2 hours ago though, so I might be off slightly
1553 2013-03-12 01:50:41 <Luke-Jr> novusordo: probably most; these are on it: eligius, eclipsemc, ozcoin, btcguild, slush(?)
1554 2013-03-12 01:50:41 lol has joined
1555 2013-03-12 01:50:46 <bot38> hey i'm a solo miner and my wallet just announced a chain fork. whats going on?
1556 2013-03-12 01:50:47 <DBordello> jgarzik, noted.
1557 2013-03-12 01:50:52 <K1773R> knotwork, no since 0.8 acceptsthe invalid chain
1558 2013-03-12 01:50:54 t4nk926 has joined
1559 2013-03-12 01:50:56 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: 4k isnt bad
1560 2013-03-12 01:51:00 <K1773R> *accepts the
1561 2013-03-12 01:51:02 rvagg has joined
1562 2013-03-12 01:51:04 lol is now known as Guest69777
1563 2013-03-12 01:51:06 kekekekekeke has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1564 2013-03-12 01:51:06 GGG has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1565 2013-03-12 01:51:06 fontsa has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1566 2013-03-12 01:51:06 Xenon481_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1567 2013-03-12 01:51:06 qazwsx has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1568 2013-03-12 01:51:12 <sipa> Diablo-D3: the 'bad block' was one with 1700 transactions
1569 2013-03-12 01:51:13 lol123917 has joined
1570 2013-03-12 01:51:15 <brie> Do i need to switch my client version even if I don't mine with it?
1571 2013-03-12 01:51:16 <doublec> bot38: all you need to know is here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152030
1572 2013-03-12 01:51:22 daughterly has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1573 2013-03-12 01:51:23 <sipa> brie: are you a merchant?
1574 2013-03-12 01:51:23 <phantomcircuit> brie, no
1575 2013-03-12 01:51:24 ppcko has joined
1576 2013-03-12 01:51:29 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: nah, not at all, now that we're aware of it
1577 2013-03-12 01:51:31 bierrebonbon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1578 2013-03-12 01:51:31 pizzacat has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1579 2013-03-12 01:51:31 jasonharty24_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1580 2013-03-12 01:51:33 <Diablo-D3> sipa: oh, wait, it shit itself on 1700?
1581 2013-03-12 01:51:35 King_DuckZ has quit (Quit: leaving)
1582 2013-03-12 01:51:35 <Diablo-D3> thats kinda bad
1583 2013-03-12 01:51:36 <MC-Droid> muted now?
1584 2013-03-12 01:51:36 iamaleksey has joined
1585 2013-03-12 01:51:36 <bot38> thanks
1586 2013-03-12 01:51:37 Spunkie has joined
1587 2013-03-12 01:51:37 <phantomcircuit> if you're a merchant you should definitely just stop accepting transactions
1588 2013-03-12 01:51:43 sadasd has joined
1589 2013-03-12 01:51:48 <brie> sipa, only on bitmit.
1590 2013-03-12 01:51:50 daughterly has joined
1591 2013-03-12 01:51:50 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ouch, it's that low? :(
1592 2013-03-12 01:51:50 <Diablo-D3> 1700 transactions a block is 244800 tx a day
1593 2013-03-12 01:51:56 rexdart_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1594 2013-03-12 01:51:56 KuDeTa_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1595 2013-03-12 01:51:56 chuck has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1596 2013-03-12 01:51:59 <K1773R> ty jgarzik
1597 2013-03-12 01:52:02 <Diablo-D3> a starbucks in nyc does that much in a day
1598 2013-03-12 01:52:05 bjorn_248 has joined
1599 2013-03-12 01:52:09 webclientsucks has joined
1600 2013-03-12 01:52:17 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: ya, we're gonna have to hard fork to get that limit out eventually
1601 2013-03-12 01:52:26 fredrico has joined
1602 2013-03-12 01:52:28 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: unlike the size limit that one actually matters greatly to current use
1603 2013-03-12 01:52:30 pizzacat has joined
1604 2013-03-12 01:52:32 showard has joined
1605 2013-03-12 01:52:46 Xenon481 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1606 2013-03-12 01:52:46 Bowjob249 has joined
1607 2013-03-12 01:52:49 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: yeah, but meh.
1608 2013-03-12 01:52:50 <egecko> hard fork at v1 could be a coordinated move with release
1609 2013-03-12 01:52:51 grn_home has joined
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1616 2013-03-12 01:53:05 <novusordo> how affected is p2pool? should miners stop using it for the time being?
1617 2013-03-12 01:53:11 pizzacat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1618 2013-03-12 01:53:11 fsdggg has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1621 2013-03-12 01:53:11 Deux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1622 2013-03-12 01:53:12 <GMP> atleast some old bdb-based versions work just fine, could we investigate, if its relevant to bdb in general or just some 0.7.x implementation
1623 2013-03-12 01:53:12 <K1773R> novusordo, p2pool is unsable
1624 2013-03-12 01:53:12 <Diablo-D3> I guess I'll just have to write a better bitcoin client and make an alt chain :<
1625 2013-03-12 01:53:16 <Diablo-D3> </troll>
1626 2013-03-12 01:53:22 rmoriz has joined
1627 2013-03-12 01:53:24 <K1773R> novusordo, for p2pool join #p2pool, ty
1628 2013-03-12 01:53:31 <jgarzik> GMP: yes, it is a fair question / avenue for investigation
1629 2013-03-12 01:53:36 kekekeke123 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1630 2013-03-12 01:53:40 mavric has joined
1631 2013-03-12 01:53:56 <B0g4r7> How far ahead is the bad chain yet?
1632 2013-03-12 01:53:58 <Ferroh> Don't worry Diablo-D3, you don't need to add the </troll> tag, most of us just assume you are trolling by now.
1633 2013-03-12 01:53:58 xfaust has joined
1634 2013-03-12 01:54:01 dykast has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1635 2013-03-12 01:54:02 <thermoman> 0.7.2 still at 225436 here
1636 2013-03-12 01:54:20 Dexu has joined
1637 2013-03-12 01:54:22 <Diablo-D3> Ferroh: :<
1638 2013-03-12 01:54:23 Ranvier has joined
1639 2013-03-12 01:54:25 LobsterMan has joined
1640 2013-03-12 01:54:29 Seventoes has joined
1641 2013-03-12 01:54:29 dykast has joined
1642 2013-03-12 01:54:29 <nanotube> thermoman: 0.8 at 449
1643 2013-03-12 01:54:32 <jouke> thermoman: here as well, my .8 node at 225449
1644 2013-03-12 01:54:34 <Seventoes> i'm here for the shitstorm!
1645 2013-03-12 01:54:34 <Ferroh> Diablo-D3:  :>
1646 2013-03-12 01:54:35 Xenon481-Ghost is now known as Xenon481
1647 2013-03-12 01:54:42 klmist has joined
1648 2013-03-12 01:54:42 <Diablo-D3> Ferroh: I dunno, the first post-bitcoin chain might be interesting
1649 2013-03-12 01:54:45 check has joined
1650 2013-03-12 01:54:51 Guest69777 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1651 2013-03-12 01:54:51 peter___ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1652 2013-03-12 01:54:57 <jgarzik> Seventoes: not now, please
1653 2013-03-12 01:55:04 <doublec> my 0.7.2 pool is at 225436 still too
1654 2013-03-12 01:55:05 <Thistleforce> I'm stopped at 225449 for now myself
1655 2013-03-12 01:55:12 myhonor has joined
1656 2013-03-12 01:55:21 <lol123917> so how long until .7 catches up to .8?
1657 2013-03-12 01:55:26 <Seventoes> sorry, i'll just watch :)
1658 2013-03-12 01:55:43 <DBordello> 225437
1659 2013-03-12 01:55:51 joehoyle has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
1660 2013-03-12 01:55:52 <B0g4r7> 12 blocks now?
1661 2013-03-12 01:55:55 zbxg has joined
1662 2013-03-12 01:56:02 Bowjob653 has joined
1663 2013-03-12 01:56:03 <Geribaldy> that is dependent on the miners
1664 2013-03-12 01:56:04 thoughtcourier has joined
1665 2013-03-12 01:56:06 moocowpong1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1666 2013-03-12 01:56:16 <lol123917> only 12 blocks?
1667 2013-03-12 01:56:19 samurai1201 has joined
1668 2013-03-12 01:56:21 Uglux has joined
1669 2013-03-12 01:56:21 macbook-air has joined
1670 2013-03-12 01:56:32 petertodd has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1671 2013-03-12 01:56:34 samurai1200 has left ()
1672 2013-03-12 01:56:37 <Diablo-D3> sipa: wait a second, how many blocks did we ruin because of bdb post-SD?
1673 2013-03-12 01:56:42 nickmbailey has joined
1674 2013-03-12 01:56:47 <brie> should i switch from lining litecoins to mining on btcguild to help out?
1675 2013-03-12 01:56:47 <sipa> Diablo-D3: >
1676 2013-03-12 01:56:49 <sipa> ?
1677 2013-03-12 01:56:51 <brie> mining*
1678 2013-03-12 01:56:56 gruez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1679 2013-03-12 01:57:03 <K1773R> brie, yes mine as much you can on a 0.7 pool
1680 2013-03-12 01:57:06 <kanoi> OK 0.7 jsut got a new block from EMC
1681 2013-03-12 01:57:06 tjader has joined
1682 2013-03-12 01:57:06 <Diablo-D3> sipa: well, if bdb rejected those blocks
1683 2013-03-12 01:57:07 bitcoiner has joined
1684 2013-03-12 01:57:07 hydrogenesis has joined
1685 2013-03-12 01:57:13 <xfaust> im assuming eligius is ok to mine on?
1686 2013-03-12 01:57:14 jasonharty24 has joined
1687 2013-03-12 01:57:18 <Diablo-D3> sipa: were we frequently making 1700+tx blocks and not knowing it?
1688 2013-03-12 01:57:18 csolisr has joined
1689 2013-03-12 01:57:21 Murderscene has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1690 2013-03-12 01:57:23 <Eliel_> xfaust: it is
1691 2013-03-12 01:57:24 OldEnK has joined
1692 2013-03-12 01:57:25 <jgarzik> xfaust: yes
1693 2013-03-12 01:57:26 grae_ has joined
1694 2013-03-12 01:57:26 <pizzacat> 0.7 new block on blockchain.info
1695 2013-03-12 01:57:28 <Derringer> looks like ozcoin has shut down 0.8 bitcoind's as well
1696 2013-03-12 01:57:29 <jimbit> is deepbit 0.7?
1697 2013-03-12 01:57:31 Nameface has joined
1698 2013-03-12 01:57:36 <Eleuthria> deepbit is probably 0.4
1699 2013-03-12 01:57:36 AndIrc_ has joined
1700 2013-03-12 01:57:38 <Graet> 7yes, i posted that Derringer
1701 2013-03-12 01:57:40 <jimbit> lol
1702 2013-03-12 01:57:40 <con__> deepbit i probably .1
1703 2013-03-12 01:57:41 osirisx11 has joined
1704 2013-03-12 01:57:46 pjreddie has joined
1705 2013-03-12 01:57:47 <sipa> Diablo-D3: the problem is likely not caused by just the number of transactions
1706 2013-03-12 01:57:48 mrkent has joined
1707 2013-03-12 01:57:50 gonffen has joined
1708 2013-03-12 01:57:52 joehoyle has joined
1709 2013-03-12 01:57:54 <con__> damn, too slow
1710 2013-03-12 01:57:54 <Eleuthria> Sorry, now isn't the time for those jokes
1711 2013-03-12 01:57:56 <lol123917> mtgox is falling
1712 2013-03-12 01:57:58 onryo has joined
1713 2013-03-12 01:58:02 <con__> ok sorry
1714 2013-03-12 01:58:05 <lol123917> nvm
1715 2013-03-12 01:58:10 dlunch has joined
1716 2013-03-12 01:58:14 ben-abuya has joined
1717 2013-03-12 01:58:15 <sipa> Diablo-D3: just saying that the breaking block had 1700 transactions, but affected over 5000 block index entries
1718 2013-03-12 01:58:25 <con__> how's the .7 takeover looking?
1719 2013-03-12 01:58:33 <Luke-Jr> (on a serious note, I'm pretty sure Deepbit is 0.3.21 forked)
1720 2013-03-12 01:58:41 <Diablo-D3> sipa: well, how many times did this happen and we didnt know?
1721 2013-03-12 01:58:46 <sipa> Diablo-D3: once
1722 2013-03-12 01:58:54 davout_ has joined
1723 2013-03-12 01:58:58 Ranvier_ has joined
1724 2013-03-12 01:58:58 bitcoin-dev438 has joined
1725 2013-03-12 01:59:00 jasonharty24_ has joined
1726 2013-03-12 01:59:02 <Transisto> What big pool hasn't been contacted yet ?
1727 2013-03-12 01:59:09 Seventoes has left ()
1728 2013-03-12 01:59:10 <randy-waterhouse> 12 blocks chain difference .... that's 'about' 2 hours of netwrk disruption, right?
1729 2013-03-12 01:59:10 funkbox has joined
1730 2013-03-12 01:59:12 Jack_ has joined
1731 2013-03-12 01:59:14 nomnomnom123213 has joined
1732 2013-03-12 01:59:18 <Luke-Jr> Transisto: 50BTC seems to be unreachable except by email
1733 2013-03-12 01:59:18 <davout_> getting a "cannot allocate memory" on 0.6
1734 2013-03-12 01:59:20 WillieSmoters has joined
1735 2013-03-12 01:59:24 coolsa has joined
1736 2013-03-12 01:59:28 <vbuterin> random Avalon miners?
1737 2013-03-12 01:59:28 <kanoi> yep in the last few weeks certianly only once for the DB error :) - coz my 0.7.0 log only shows it today
1738 2013-03-12 01:59:33 funkbox has left ()
1739 2013-03-12 01:59:35 grae__ has joined
1740 2013-03-12 01:59:35 <csolisr> I just received the network alarm. I'm using 0.8 from ArchLinux and can't downgrade. I'm not a miner or merchant, just a normal user. Should I shut the client down?
1741 2013-03-12 01:59:40 Seventoes has joined
1742 2013-03-12 01:59:44 <sipa> csolisr: don't worry
1743 2013-03-12 01:59:47 <davout_> csolisr: no
1744 2013-03-12 01:59:48 brandyn_ has joined
1745 2013-03-12 01:59:49 codewebs has joined
1746 2013-03-12 01:59:51 cmelbye has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1747 2013-03-12 01:59:53 BIPS has joined
1748 2013-03-12 01:59:56 sdfrt5 has joined
1749 2013-03-12 01:59:57 <anachron> Pls mute the non-developer chatters
1750 2013-03-12 01:59:58 testoat has joined
1751 2013-03-12 02:00:00 trybal_ has joined
1752 2013-03-12 02:00:02 gasteve has joined
1753 2013-03-12 02:00:08 rdymac has joined
1754 2013-03-12 02:00:16 sadasd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1755 2013-03-12 02:00:19 <B0g4r7> randy, probably more if the bad chain continues to grow.
1756 2013-03-12 02:00:22 <trybal_> ive done bitcoin faucet and a few other free sites, why do i have sent transactions??  there should only be recieved
1757 2013-03-12 02:00:31 <davout_> can the "cannot allocate memory" warning be ignored on 0.6 ?
1758 2013-03-12 02:00:32 blaeks has joined
1759 2013-03-12 02:00:39 <jgarzik> trybal_: not now, please
1760 2013-03-12 02:00:41 dykast has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1761 2013-03-12 02:00:41 Ranvier has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1762 2013-03-12 02:00:41 Dexu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1763 2013-03-12 02:00:41 webclientsucks has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1764 2013-03-12 02:00:43 sjn8rzsw7 has joined
1765 2013-03-12 02:00:54 <anachron> *please mute the non-developer chatters*
1766 2013-03-12 02:00:55 aaaaa has joined
1767 2013-03-12 02:00:58 <anachron> Send them somewhere else.
1768 2013-03-12 02:01:06 check has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1769 2013-03-12 02:01:08 <brie> okay i added 400Mh/s to btcguild since they're on 0.7
1770 2013-03-12 02:01:10 forktracker has joined
1771 2013-03-12 02:01:16 <nelisky> bitminter just mined 225437, so they're very likely on 0.7
1772 2013-03-12 02:01:19 <mebad> http://i.imgur.com/KcJVPAH.jpg
1773 2013-03-12 02:01:20 jfe83jfjjf has joined
1774 2013-03-12 02:01:22 <Eleuthria> lost 2 TH/s already from this
1775 2013-03-12 02:01:23 <Eleuthria> wow
1776 2013-03-12 02:01:26 <walruscode> anachron,  I'm a non-dev and I'm quietly observing...
1777 2013-03-12 02:01:26 nonom12321 has joined
1778 2013-03-12 02:01:31 grae_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1779 2013-03-12 02:01:31 jasonharty24 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1780 2013-03-12 02:01:31 myhonor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1781 2013-03-12 02:01:32 nickmbailey has left ()
1782 2013-03-12 02:01:35 <KuDeTa> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1a4ab0/alert_payattention_a_block_was_mined_that_was_too/ if you want to know whats going on.
1783 2013-03-12 02:01:38 netvope2 has joined
1784 2013-03-12 02:01:38 <owowo> maybe you should spare the "warning" in the client, just makes normal user uncomfortable...
1785 2013-03-12 02:01:46 <kanoi> nelisky - no 437 0.7 is EMC
1786 2013-03-12 02:01:49 <onryo> Yeah I got the network alarm too. I'm on 0.8 using Debian
1787 2013-03-12 02:01:56 sgtvs4tg has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1788 2013-03-12 02:02:06 <gmaxwell> onryo: Safe is better than comfortable.
1789 2013-03-12 02:02:10 davout has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1790 2013-03-12 02:02:13 Ranvier has joined
1791 2013-03-12 02:02:16 <novusordo> owowo: it certainly got the community moving!
1792 2013-03-12 02:02:20 Deux has joined
1793 2013-03-12 02:02:21 lol123917 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1794 2013-03-12 02:02:25 codewebs2 has joined
1795 2013-03-12 02:02:29 Atheros2 has joined
1796 2013-03-12 02:02:29 <novusordo> it's only been ~2 hours
1797 2013-03-12 02:02:34 <onryo> gmaxwell I am cool with it but it looks scary.
1798 2013-03-12 02:02:40 <novusordo> think of how much any other currency/payment system would have done in 2 hours...
1799 2013-03-12 02:02:41 <Luke-Jr> davout_: if you're on 0.7 or earlier, you're fine
1800 2013-03-12 02:02:47 swd has joined
1801 2013-03-12 02:02:50 <nelisky> kanoi: yes, bitminter's an orphan
1802 2013-03-12 02:02:53 zbxg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1803 2013-03-12 02:03:03 mike has joined
1804 2013-03-12 02:03:07 Ibitminer has joined
1805 2013-03-12 02:03:07 <denis> is slush 0.7?
1806 2013-03-12 02:03:10 walterwitt has joined
1807 2013-03-12 02:03:11 jasonharty24_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1808 2013-03-12 02:03:11 Ranvier_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1809 2013-03-12 02:03:13 <nelisky> but still on 0.7 as it built on 225436 right?
1810 2013-03-12 02:03:13 <Eleuthria> 0.7 chain up to 225450
1811 2013-03-12 02:03:21 piuk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1812 2013-03-12 02:03:22 staphn has joined
1813 2013-03-12 02:03:27 <nonom12321> whats .8 on?
1814 2013-03-12 02:03:27 mike is now known as Guest46394
1815 2013-03-12 02:03:30 <GMP> how to force 0.7.2 to full verify  all blocks? any command line switch?
1816 2013-03-12 02:03:36 grae__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1817 2013-03-12 02:03:36 nomnomnom123213 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1818 2013-03-12 02:03:40 <Eleuthria> Wait...no
1819 2013-03-12 02:03:47 <Eleuthria> did blockchain.info get moved to 225450?
1820 2013-03-12 02:03:49 <BIPS> .8 "blocks" : 225450,
1821 2013-03-12 02:03:50 mebad has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1822 2013-03-12 02:03:50 <casshern> what if my client is 4.8.2, I dont need to do naything?
1823 2013-03-12 02:03:51 <Eleuthria> err, 0.8
1824 2013-03-12 02:03:52 <slush> errors" : "EXCEPTION: 11DbException       \nDb::get: Cannot allocate memory       \nbitcoin in ProcessMessages()       \n"
1825 2013-03-12 02:03:54 <slush> wtf
1826 2013-03-12 02:03:55 inau has joined
1827 2013-03-12 02:03:56 <wizkid057> Eleuthria: thats 0.8
1828 2013-03-12 02:03:59 <Eleuthria> slush:  I'm getting that too
1829 2013-03-12 02:04:01 codewebs has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1830 2013-03-12 02:04:01 brandyn_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1831 2013-03-12 02:04:03 testoat has quit (Client Quit)
1832 2013-03-12 02:04:03 <novusordo> casshern: correct
1833 2013-03-12 02:04:04 Maged has joined
1834 2013-03-12 02:04:08 blockchainzz has joined
1835 2013-03-12 02:04:09 <Eleuthria> Until recently blockchain.info wasn't showing 0.8 blocks
1836 2013-03-12 02:04:16 <K1773R> slush, just ignore it!
1837 2013-03-12 02:04:18 amaloz has joined
1838 2013-03-12 02:04:19 <inau> what's the progress on the pool side? how many TH/s are behind .7 right now
1839 2013-03-12 02:04:21 <Eleuthria> Got confused
1840 2013-03-12 02:04:26 gasteve has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1841 2013-03-12 02:04:26 <gavinandresen> slush: that is expected, your client is trying and failing to process the 0.8-chain-block
1842 2013-03-12 02:04:31 <Luke-Jr> [01:43:39] <piuk_> jouke: I patched it, I want to record all blocks for analytics purposes. The merchant notifications API has been disable.d
1843 2013-03-12 02:04:32 <wizkid057> so slush is < 0.8 ?
1844 2013-03-12 02:04:36 <pizzacat> Eleuthria, same here..
1845 2013-03-12 02:04:38 gonzoflip has joined
1846 2013-03-12 02:04:39 <Eleuthria> All but 2 BTC Guild servers moved over, and one is about to get restarted
1847 2013-03-12 02:04:40 <slush> how can I ignore it when it blocks RPC commands?
1848 2013-03-12 02:04:51 trybal_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1849 2013-03-12 02:04:52 LargoG has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1850 2013-03-12 02:04:53 <sipa> slush: -nosafemode
1851 2013-03-12 02:05:04 BIPS is now known as kreal
1852 2013-03-12 02:05:06 <Eleuthria> 225437
1853 2013-03-12 02:05:07 Guest46394 has quit (Client Quit)
1854 2013-03-12 02:05:09 <Eleuthria> 13 blocks behind
1855 2013-03-12 02:05:15 <kanoi> 0.7 current is 225437 000000000000022500c140cbc4ba13eebeb9859b08461c7a35fb233202ec8374 (which was EMC)
1856 2013-03-12 02:05:18 Murderscene has joined
1857 2013-03-12 02:05:19 nomnomnom123182 has joined
1858 2013-03-12 02:05:19 Linkandzelda has joined
1859 2013-03-12 02:05:23 <K1773R> its catching up, good :)
1860 2013-03-12 02:05:24 kreal is now known as BIPS
1861 2013-03-12 02:05:29 <JWU42> just got 450
1862 2013-03-12 02:05:30 <con__> Eleuthria, are you now fully on .7?
1863 2013-03-12 02:05:30 pushcx has left ()
1864 2013-03-12 02:05:30 <inau> (1) is blockchain on 0.7
1865 2013-03-12 02:05:30 guest892735 has joined
1866 2013-03-12 02:05:33 Ashaman has joined
1867 2013-03-12 02:05:34 enquirer3 has joined
1868 2013-03-12 02:05:36 <inau> (2) can we deposit at gox safely right now
1869 2013-03-12 02:05:36 `Springy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1870 2013-03-12 02:05:39 <Eleuthria> con:  I just said, all but 2 servers.
1871 2013-03-12 02:05:43 BIPS is now known as kreal
1872 2013-03-12 02:05:43 <K1773R> inau, OffTopic = kick
1873 2013-03-12 02:05:48 <Luke-Jr> inau: nobody is accepting transactions now
1874 2013-03-12 02:05:49 <CodeShark> are there any good monitoring tools to view network hashing activity?
1875 2013-03-12 02:05:54 <slush> ReserveKeyFromKeyPool() : read failed
1876 2013-03-12 02:05:55 <gmaxwell> inau: you can, but your deposit will not be processed until after this is cleared up.
1877 2013-03-12 02:05:55 <inau> ok, thanks
1878 2013-03-12 02:05:56 <K1773R> inau, trust only the 0.7 chain, no txs right now
1879 2013-03-12 02:06:10 <Transisto> "nobody should be accepting transactions now"
1880 2013-03-12 02:06:11 <gmaxwell> slush: locked wallet?
1881 2013-03-12 02:06:12 <sipa> slush: that doesn't sound good
1882 2013-03-12 02:06:15 <Murderscene> Question. I sent a transaction in the last 10 minutes. Will it become forever unconfirmed? Will it return to me? I am unsure how to work this all out
1883 2013-03-12 02:06:19 JZavala has joined
1884 2013-03-12 02:06:27 <sipa> Murderscene: it will confirm, but after this incident
1885 2013-03-12 02:06:27 <HM> Murderscene: do nothing and wait
1886 2013-03-12 02:06:31 Ranvier has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1887 2013-03-12 02:06:33 <sipa> it may take hours
1888 2013-03-12 02:06:33 <Murderscene> Ok
1889 2013-03-12 02:06:39 hydrogenesis has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
1890 2013-03-12 02:06:45 <Murderscene> I don't mind how long it takes as long as it's not lost :)
1891 2013-03-12 02:06:49 csolisr has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130309001430])
1892 2013-03-12 02:06:50 aaaaaaa has joined
1893 2013-03-12 02:06:52 ^V has joined
1894 2013-03-12 02:06:53 <novusordo> ah, i was worried that transactions might be reversed... that's good to hear.
1895 2013-03-12 02:06:59 jojoba has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1896 2013-03-12 02:07:04 uiyuiy89y98y has joined
1897 2013-03-12 02:07:05 codewebs has joined
1898 2013-03-12 02:07:09 <CodeShark> .8 is still outpacing .7
1899 2013-03-12 02:07:15 <slush> sipa: what I should do?
1900 2013-03-12 02:07:21 walterwitt has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1901 2013-03-12 02:07:21 Ibitminer has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1902 2013-03-12 02:07:21 forktracker has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1903 2013-03-12 02:07:21 aaaaa has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1904 2013-03-12 02:07:21 <slush> I dropped wallet, restarted, it is back again
1905 2013-03-12 02:07:21 <JWU42> 451
1906 2013-03-12 02:07:22 fjjfj3j3399 has joined
1907 2013-03-12 02:07:23 KillYourTV has joined
1908 2013-03-12 02:07:23 <casshern> this hows me that bitcoin is not actually independant, but controlled by few
1909 2013-03-12 02:07:27 <wizkid057> hhtt seems to be 0.8
1910 2013-03-12 02:07:32 XertroV-work has joined
1911 2013-03-12 02:07:38 <JWU42> wizkid057: he is I think
1912 2013-03-12 02:07:41 AndChat has joined
1913 2013-03-12 02:07:42 <Jezzz> 225438 - BTC Guild
1914 2013-03-12 02:07:46 nonom12321 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1915 2013-03-12 02:07:46 jfe83jfjjf has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1916 2013-03-12 02:07:49 <K1773R> excellent :)
1917 2013-03-12 02:07:58 <K1773R> badchain is on 225451 :(
1918 2013-03-12 02:08:00 hakm has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1919 2013-03-12 02:08:02 <wizkid057> JWU42: i'm dumping blocks looking to see who needs to be contacted
1920 2013-03-12 02:08:06 <sipa> casshern: bitcoin is a consensus
1921 2013-03-12 02:08:08 <wizkid057> from the 0.8 chain
1922 2013-03-12 02:08:09 <B0g4r7> Think if there weren't pools and everyone soloed.
1923 2013-03-12 02:08:11 blockchainzz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1924 2013-03-12 02:08:11 netvope2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1925 2013-03-12 02:08:16 iamaleksey has left ("["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]")
1926 2013-03-12 02:08:19 edward_h has joined
1927 2013-03-12 02:08:19 zodiac__ has joined
1928 2013-03-12 02:08:21 <slush> bitcoind getinfo
1929 2013-03-12 02:08:21 <slush> error: {"code":-1,"message":"CDB() : can't open database file wallet.dat, error -30973"}
1930 2013-03-12 02:08:23 <Eleuthria> b0g4r7:  Then we'd be truly screwed
1931 2013-03-12 02:08:25 <slush> so whats now????
1932 2013-03-12 02:08:32 <JWU42> wizkid057: Mt. Red was too I believe - think he turned off the bitcoinds
1933 2013-03-12 02:08:34 JZavala has quit (Client Quit)
1934 2013-03-12 02:08:34 newbie has joined
1935 2013-03-12 02:08:36 codewebs2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1936 2013-03-12 02:08:36 Deux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1937 2013-03-12 02:08:38 num1 has joined
1938 2013-03-12 02:08:38 <K1773R> slush do you use a 0.8 wallet?
1939 2013-03-12 02:08:44 <slush> I just dropped it
1940 2013-03-12 02:08:45 EvilPete has joined
1941 2013-03-12 02:08:49 <shwooop> B0g4r7: please don't mention that on reddit.
1942 2013-03-12 02:08:55 <slush> but it didnt help
1943 2013-03-12 02:08:58 bitcoin-dev001 has joined
1944 2013-03-12 02:08:59 weee has joined
1945 2013-03-12 02:09:07 DoomDumas has joined
1946 2013-03-12 02:09:10 bitcoin-dev411 has joined
1947 2013-03-12 02:09:11 shwooop is now known as shwoop
1948 2013-03-12 02:09:15 <Luke-Jr> B0g4r7: things would have been slightly better
1949 2013-03-12 02:09:17 weee is now known as weeeee
1950 2013-03-12 02:09:22 <K1773R> B0g4r7, if everyone would solo it would be a huge disaster, this way we can get a majority of hashrate on the 0.7 chain
1951 2013-03-12 02:09:24 weeeee is now known as weeeee2
1952 2013-03-12 02:09:26 <[269]gbg> wasnt *this* a 51% attack?
1953 2013-03-12 02:09:31 samurai1201 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1954 2013-03-12 02:09:31 <Luke-Jr> [269]gbg: no
1955 2013-03-12 02:09:33 Ibitminer has joined
1956 2013-03-12 02:09:33 NilamDoc has joined
1957 2013-03-12 02:09:34 <K1773R> if everyone would solo this wouldnt be possible
1958 2013-03-12 02:09:34 gasteve has joined
1959 2013-03-12 02:09:35 newbie has joined
1960 2013-03-12 02:09:35 <shwoop> [269]gbg: nope
1961 2013-03-12 02:09:42 Atheros2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1962 2013-03-12 02:09:46 <slush> WILL TELL ME ANYBODY WHAT I SHOULD DO NOW?
1963 2013-03-12 02:09:51 <slush> FUCKING BITCOIND
1964 2013-03-12 02:09:52 jzig has joined
1965 2013-03-12 02:09:54 <Seventoes> this is an example of how a potential 51% attack would be handled though
1966 2013-03-12 02:10:00 <sipa> slush: let me think
1967 2013-03-12 02:10:02 <[269]gbg> large pools 'colluding' about which fork became truth?
1968 2013-03-12 02:10:04 <Ferroh> slush: Do you need to do anything?
1969 2013-03-12 02:10:06 samurai1201 has joined
1970 2013-03-12 02:10:06 <Luke-Jr> slush: do you need that wallet.dat?
1971 2013-03-12 02:10:06 <phungus> and the pool operators all shit their pants
1972 2013-03-12 02:10:07 <phungus> ...
1973 2013-03-12 02:10:08 karmic has joined
1974 2013-03-12 02:10:13 <slush> no, i dropped it already
1975 2013-03-12 02:10:14 <slush> restarted
1976 2013-03-12 02:10:15 <shwoop> phungus: lol
1977 2013-03-12 02:10:15 <klmist> slush, create a new wallet. you can reimport the keys with balances after?
1978 2013-03-12 02:10:16 inau has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1979 2013-03-12 02:10:17 <slush> it is back again
1980 2013-03-12 02:10:18 <DoomDumas> happy to ear you slush !
1981 2013-03-12 02:10:18 <casshern> anyway, for some reason my client started re downloading all blocks for no reason, I wonder if it's connected with this... I am using  (-datadir=F:\Bitcoin) to start my bitcoin shortcut
1982 2013-03-12 02:10:23 <slush> I don't need that wallet at all
1983 2013-03-12 02:10:29 TeslaNode has joined
1984 2013-03-12 02:10:52 gigavps has joined
1985 2013-03-12 02:10:54 lightlord has joined
1986 2013-03-12 02:10:56 forkwatcher has joined
1987 2013-03-12 02:10:58 <klmist> then delete it and restart. it should create a new one automagically
1988 2013-03-12 02:10:58 voodoo has joined
1989 2013-03-12 02:11:01 <Vinnie_win> piuk should take down the link to satoshidice temporarily
1990 2013-03-12 02:11:03 <sipa> slush: can you start with -detachdb, quit, delete the database/* dir, and try again?
1991 2013-03-12 02:11:05 Eneerge has joined
1992 2013-03-12 02:11:10 <Luke-Jr> Vinnie_win: dice actually shutdown temporarily
1993 2013-03-12 02:11:24 <slush> sipa: trying
1994 2013-03-12 02:11:37 <Vinnie_win> Luke-Jr: Sure, but people clicking on those links from blockchain will still produce a flood of tx
1995 2013-03-12 02:11:45 <JWU42> wizkid057: [20:22] <MtRedMining> im downgrading us to 0.6.2 should be up soon
1996 2013-03-12 02:11:47 Seventoes has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1997 2013-03-12 02:11:55 robocoin has joined
1998 2013-03-12 02:11:57 Atheros2 has joined
1999 2013-03-12 02:12:01 ajunge has joined
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2001 2013-03-12 02:12:08 AndChat has quit (244209!~AndChat24@2600:1012:b029:af0d:17f4:9a17:665b:302e|Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2002 2013-03-12 02:12:11 <wizkid057> JWU42: awesome
2003 2013-03-12 02:12:19 <mrkent> with all that talk recently of the block sizes, did people see this coming?
2004 2013-03-12 02:12:20 Seventoes has joined
2005 2013-03-12 02:12:22 Stilger has joined
2006 2013-03-12 02:12:35 Geribaldy has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2007 2013-03-12 02:12:39 Line_ has joined
2008 2013-03-12 02:12:46 <cjd> hmm we should have a patch for adding a checkpoint so miners who aren't able to (up/down)grade instantly can build w/ it
2009 2013-03-12 02:12:49 <Graet> i set a sane limit for my pool. seems others didnt consider he possibilty
2010 2013-03-12 02:13:00 <slush> EXCEPTION: St13runtime_error
2011 2013-03-12 02:13:01 <slush> CDB() : can't open database file blkindex.dat, error 22
2012 2013-03-12 02:13:01 <slush> bitcoin in AppInit()
2013 2013-03-12 02:13:01 <slush> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::runtime_error'
2014 2013-03-12 02:13:01 <slush>   what():  CDB() : can't open database file blkindex.dat, error 22
2015 2013-03-12 02:13:01 Duly has joined
2016 2013-03-12 02:13:02 <slush> even better
2017 2013-03-12 02:13:05 <Luke-Jr> cjd: already suggested and agreed
2018 2013-03-12 02:13:06 montesquieu has joined
2019 2013-03-12 02:13:10 <Vinnie_win> Blockchain.info banner says "There is currently an issue with the latest 0.8 bitcoin client. Miners please downgrade. Every be very careful about accepting any transactions for the the next few hours"
2020 2013-03-12 02:13:11 bitcoinQQQ has joined
2021 2013-03-12 02:13:13 <Eleuthria> Which pool mined the 998kb block?
2022 2013-03-12 02:13:25 chylee has joined
2023 2013-03-12 02:13:27 <weeeee2> damnit i just upgraded to 0.8. Wut now
2024 2013-03-12 02:13:30 <Graet> slush was et at 990k
2025 2013-03-12 02:13:31 newbie has quit (3!kvirc@cpe-66-65-120-151.nyc.res.rr.com|Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026 2013-03-12 02:13:33 <klmist> slush, shit. better torrent it i guess
2027 2013-03-12 02:13:35 testpulse has joined
2028 2013-03-12 02:13:36 Ibitminer has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2029 2013-03-12 02:13:42 <wizkid057> whats the height of the "poison" block?
2030 2013-03-12 02:13:46 <tjb0607> weeeee2: chill if you're not mining and you're not a merchant
2031 2013-03-12 02:13:48 <pizzacat> 0.7 at 438   0.8 at 451
2032 2013-03-12 02:13:50 <slush> sipa: ?
2033 2013-03-12 02:14:00 <sipa> slush: fcking BDB
2034 2013-03-12 02:14:04 <kanoi> wizkid057: 225430
2035 2013-03-12 02:14:08 <jimbit> will orphaned transactions get rolled back?  if spent during this?
2036 2013-03-12 02:14:10 <Herodes> weeeee2: If you're not a miner, just sit tight and wait till it's sorted. you do not need to downgrade. it's only the miners that's affected, the client will relay any blocks, if it's 0.7 or 0.8
2037 2013-03-12 02:14:12 pwns has joined
2038 2013-03-12 02:14:14 <wizkid057> kanoi: thanks
2039 2013-03-12 02:14:21 50UACDE0C has joined
2040 2013-03-12 02:14:22 <sneak> jimbit: that's what happens with orphans, yes
2041 2013-03-12 02:14:23 btc123 has joined
2042 2013-03-12 02:14:28 <sipa> slush: you'll have to rebuild, i'm afraid
2043 2013-03-12 02:14:30 <weeeee2> thx
2044 2013-03-12 02:14:32 <wizkid057> i got home about an hour into this crisis
2045 2013-03-12 02:14:32 <paraipan> yes jimbit
2046 2013-03-12 02:14:34 thezerg_ has joined
2047 2013-03-12 02:14:35 <B0g4r7> Not catching up.
2048 2013-03-12 02:14:37 <sneak> if they are in the 0.8 fork
2049 2013-03-12 02:14:39 dree12_ has joined
2050 2013-03-12 02:14:41 <jimbit> thxs..
2051 2013-03-12 02:14:51 Guest46652 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2052 2013-03-12 02:14:57 rmoriz has quit (Quit: leaving)
2053 2013-03-12 02:15:01 <vbuterin> >won't orphans become free-floating transactions again and then get re-included if they haven't been double-spent?
2054 2013-03-12 02:15:03 arg has left ()
2055 2013-03-12 02:15:08 newbie has quit (7!kvirc@cpe-66-65-120-151.nyc.res.rr.com|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2056 2013-03-12 02:15:09 zrad has joined
2057 2013-03-12 02:15:16 <klmist> maybe someone who has already got an up to date 0.7.2 set of blkxxxx.dat files can make them available?
2058 2013-03-12 02:15:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2059 2013-03-12 02:15:31 <sipa> jgarzik, slush, others: i have an idea: i make a very quick patch to implement blacklistblock <hash> which causes the client to switch away from it
2060 2013-03-12 02:15:36 testt has joined
2061 2013-03-12 02:15:39 <sipa> slush: so you can remain on 0.8
2062 2013-03-12 02:15:50 <jgarzik> sipa: ACK, already had same idea ;p
2063 2013-03-12 02:15:51 <CodeShark> sipa, that's ultimately the best solution
2064 2013-03-12 02:16:06 bitcoin-dev411 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2065 2013-03-12 02:16:07 <kanoi> sipa - but it will happen again?
2066 2013-03-12 02:16:08 <sipa> it should be trivial to implement
2067 2013-03-12 02:16:26 bitinstant has joined
2068 2013-03-12 02:16:28 Batteryfire has joined
2069 2013-03-12 02:16:29 <[269]gbg> Largest fork to date?
2070 2013-03-12 02:16:29 <alexwaters> vbuterin: that was my understanding. can anyone confirm?
2071 2013-03-12 02:16:30 ocminer has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2072 2013-03-12 02:16:30 joako has joined
2073 2013-03-12 02:16:34 grubles has joined
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2076 2013-03-12 02:16:49 Petertodd has joined
2077 2013-03-12 02:16:54 <jgarzik> vbuterin, alexwaters: correct
2078 2013-03-12 02:17:00 <sneak> yeah it will happen again unless the conditions that cause 0.7 to fork are also implemented into the 0.8 branch
2079 2013-03-12 02:17:08 <novusordo> KuDeTa: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1a4ab0/alert_payattention_a_block_was_mined_that_was_too/c8tyg5f
2080 2013-03-12 02:17:09 <slush> sipa: jgarzik: so pools will leave on 0.8 and we'll force others to update?
2081 2013-03-12 02:17:14 <kanoi> sipa - until you can force 0.8 not to create the blocks that cause it
2082 2013-03-12 02:17:18 Atheros2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2083 2013-03-12 02:17:19 Beef has joined
2084 2013-03-12 02:17:24 <slush> Especially because of my fucking situation I'm in for this idea
2085 2013-03-12 02:17:25 <novusordo> KuDeTa: if that's true, you should edit your post and include that info
2086 2013-03-12 02:17:27 <gmaxwell> sneak: sort of, default 0.8 behavior appears to be safe.
2087 2013-03-12 02:17:29 <slush> Otherwise I'm offline for a day
2088 2013-03-12 02:17:31 <jgarzik> slush: this new limit must be factoring in
2089 2013-03-12 02:17:32 zbxg has joined
2090 2013-03-12 02:17:37 <KuDeTa> novusordo what info?
2091 2013-03-12 02:17:39 <jgarzik> slush: 0.8 + block size limit is _probably_ ok
2092 2013-03-12 02:17:40 bob12321 has joined
2093 2013-03-12 02:17:43 <jgarzik> slush: ONCE it is healed
2094 2013-03-12 02:17:46 testpulse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2095 2013-03-12 02:17:48 <[269]gbg> so .8.1 is coming?
2096 2013-03-12 02:17:53 <sipa> slush: +1 jgarzik
2097 2013-03-12 02:17:56 <KuDeTa> floating transactions?
2098 2013-03-12 02:18:01 <GMP> 0.7.2 just accepted 225451-long blockchain from disk (bitcoin-qt.exe -checkblocks=0 -checklevel=4) so i dont see how its even possible to make 000000000000015c50b165fcdd33556f8b44800c5298943ac70b112df480c023 branch invalid
2099 2013-03-12 02:18:06 <Luke-Jr> [02:15:01] <klmist> maybe someone who has already got an up to date 0.7.2 set of blkxxxx.dat files can make them available? <-- this is NOT secure
2100 2013-03-12 02:18:11 jzig has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2101 2013-03-12 02:18:11 <jgarzik> right now, we just need 0.7 to heal the fork
2102 2013-03-12 02:18:16 dm73 has joined
2103 2013-03-12 02:18:27 satoshinakamoto has joined
2104 2013-03-12 02:18:31 <pizzacat> current status: 0.7 at 38 and 0.8 at 51
2105 2013-03-12 02:18:31 kerigan has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2106 2013-03-12 02:18:33 connor_ has joined
2107 2013-03-12 02:18:36 gasteve has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2108 2013-03-12 02:18:37 <satoshinakamoto> I'm back to save the day
2109 2013-03-12 02:18:38 <davout_> me fires up his cpu miner like the good ol days
2110 2013-03-12 02:18:40 <nanotube> GMP: you mean you got 0.7.2 to swallow the 0.8-chain?
2111 2013-03-12 02:18:41 <Murderscene> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html
2112 2013-03-12 02:18:43 <Murderscene> is that accurate
2113 2013-03-12 02:18:43 <CodeShark> if the patch to invalidate a block can be pushed out quickly, that might be faster than forcing miners to downgrade
2114 2013-03-12 02:18:44 connor_ is now known as connor__
2115 2013-03-12 02:18:45 connor__ is now known as connor1
2116 2013-03-12 02:18:48 connor1 is now known as connor__
2117 2013-03-12 02:18:49 forkwatcher_ has joined
2118 2013-03-12 02:18:49 aaaaaaa_ has joined
2119 2013-03-12 02:18:51 <slush> jgarzik: sipa: Who will decide it?
2120 2013-03-12 02:18:52 <klmist> Luke-Jr, true
2121 2013-03-12 02:18:54 connor__ is now known as connor1
2122 2013-03-12 02:18:55 RBecker is now known as rbecker
2123 2013-03-12 02:18:59 <sipa> slush: i'm implementing
2124 2013-03-12 02:19:00 tasqa has joined
2125 2013-03-12 02:19:01 dree12_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2126 2013-03-12 02:19:11 <Thistleforce> if i'm mining on BTC i'm mining on the .7 blockchin now, right?
2127 2013-03-12 02:19:15 <nelisky> it would REALLY help to have a list of pools that are "safe" right now
2128 2013-03-12 02:19:16 <Thistleforce> *BTC guild
2129 2013-03-12 02:19:17 <GMP> nanotube: 0.7.2 swallowed 0.5 chain
2130 2013-03-12 02:19:22 <novusordo> KuDeTa: see previous link, the stuff about transactions NOT getting rolled back
2131 2013-03-12 02:19:24 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2132 2013-03-12 02:19:27 kerigan has joined
2133 2013-03-12 02:19:30 jfeijfe9f9efe8e has joined
2134 2013-03-12 02:19:33 <connor1> so why exactly is this block so bad?
2135 2013-03-12 02:19:35 nomnom123 has joined
2136 2013-03-12 02:19:40 <Luke-Jr> nelisky: EclipseMC and Eligius are unaffected; slush, BTCGuild, and Ozcoin are "working on it"
2137 2013-03-12 02:19:43 jzig_ has joined
2138 2013-03-12 02:19:43 <Sydna> connor1: it's big.
2139 2013-03-12 02:19:44 <thermoman> 0.7.2 now at 225438
2140 2013-03-12 02:19:44 mrkent has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2141 2013-03-12 02:19:48 <Eleuthria> BTC Guild is fixed on all but EU
2142 2013-03-12 02:19:50 <Petertodd> sigh, i would help test but ironically there is a power outage here
2143 2013-03-12 02:19:51 testt has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2144 2013-03-12 02:19:52 <doublec> nelisky: eligius, bitparking, btcguild
2145 2013-03-12 02:19:53 <connor1> Sydna what is it doing
2146 2013-03-12 02:19:53 <K1773R> connor1, it has tomany TX's which triggers a BDB bug
2147 2013-03-12 02:19:54 dree12_ has joined
2148 2013-03-12 02:19:57 twmz has joined
2149 2013-03-12 02:19:57 <saivann> I added the alert into bitcoin.org
2150 2013-03-12 02:19:58 <crashoveride4> hurry hurry slush :D
2151 2013-03-12 02:19:59 <Graet> ozcoin  has 2 nodes still on older bitcoinds and is working
2152 2013-03-12 02:19:59 <Eleuthria> EU will be converted in the next 10 minutes
2153 2013-03-12 02:20:00 <connor1> K1773R in englihs please
2154 2013-03-12 02:20:01 <amiller> connor1, crashes BDB
2155 2013-03-12 02:20:02 <connor1> what does it do
2156 2013-03-12 02:20:03 techlife has joined
2157 2013-03-12 02:20:05 <markus__> /quit
2158 2013-03-12 02:20:05 <connor1> what is bdb
2159 2013-03-12 02:20:08 <CodeShark> I can definitely help test, sipa
2160 2013-03-12 02:20:08 <nelisky> thanks, Luke-jr
2161 2013-03-12 02:20:10 <Thistleforce> Thanks Eleuthria ;)
2162 2013-03-12 02:20:14 <thermoman> CodeShark: berkeley db
2163 2013-03-12 02:20:17 <Sydna> connor1: the block can't be processed by 0.7 clients, so they ignore it
2164 2013-03-12 02:20:18 <jgarzik> connor1: not now
2165 2013-03-12 02:20:19 <amiller> connor1, berkeley database, library btc uses to store the blcokchain
2166 2013-03-12 02:20:19 davout_ is now known as davout
2167 2013-03-12 02:20:20 davout has quit (Changing host)
2168 2013-03-12 02:20:20 davout has joined
2169 2013-03-12 02:20:24 <Graet> updateing the stratum nodes, please pass full info if you are going to pass info Luke-Jr
2170 2013-03-12 02:20:25 <thermoman> CodeShark: sorry
2171 2013-03-12 02:20:27 <jgarzik> user support -> #bitcoin
2172 2013-03-12 02:20:28 <jgarzik> please
2173 2013-03-12 02:20:28 <suckitpunk> hey is slushs pool back on .7?
2174 2013-03-12 02:20:54 <Luke-Jr> suckitpunk: I think just getwork still
2175 2013-03-12 02:20:57 OldEnK has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2176 2013-03-12 02:21:01 EmLeX has joined
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2178 2013-03-12 02:21:09 aaaaaa_ has joined
2179 2013-03-12 02:21:17 <slush> sipa: ok, so what? Stay with 0.8, go to 0.7? THis situation is becoming unclear for me now
2180 2013-03-12 02:21:18 <samurai1201> Connor1 this chat is for developers. Please sit tight.
2181 2013-03-12 02:21:19 zodiac1233_ has joined
2182 2013-03-12 02:21:27 tbcoin has joined
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2184 2013-03-12 02:21:31 uiyuiy89y98y has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2185 2013-03-12 02:21:31 aaaaaaa has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2186 2013-03-12 02:21:31 <Line_> is it safe to move btc around currently?
2187 2013-03-12 02:21:37 <suckitpunk> sorry im a bit dingy, was that a yes or no?
2188 2013-03-12 02:21:46 <Seventoes> Line_: Ask in #bitcoin
2189 2013-03-12 02:21:47 markus__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2190 2013-03-12 02:21:48 <sipa> slush: you stay with 0.8, blacklist the offending block, keep the block size limit low
2191 2013-03-12 02:21:49 xcsler has joined
2192 2013-03-12 02:21:50 <Bowjob653> is electrum safe?
2193 2013-03-12 02:21:56 dree12 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2194 2013-03-12 02:21:56 fjjfj3j3399 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2195 2013-03-12 02:21:56 nomnomnom123182 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2196 2013-03-12 02:21:56 <Seventoes> Bowjob653: Ask in #bitcoin T_T
2197 2013-03-12 02:22:03 HackFisher has joined
2198 2013-03-12 02:22:09 <doublec> suckitpunk: slush is working on the situation still.
2199 2013-03-12 02:22:16 <suckitpunk> k thanks man
2200 2013-03-12 02:22:20 <bitinstant> Guys, sit tight with your questions for the time being. We cannt afford to have developers miss something another developer said
2201 2013-03-12 02:22:25 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2207 2013-03-12 02:22:43 <PatrikR> just +m the channel already
2208 2013-03-12 02:22:49 <aethero> Well played.
2209 2013-03-12 02:22:51 mrkent has joined
2210 2013-03-12 02:22:53 * JWU42 nods
2211 2013-03-12 02:22:56 Eiii has joined
2212 2013-03-12 02:22:57 <jtimon> didn't jgarzik had a torrent to the blockchain? Couldn't that be useful for those who need to get it again?
2213 2013-03-12 02:23:02 Murderscene has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2214 2013-03-12 02:23:04 <kreal> yep, just read and store the information in your own "blockchain"..
2215 2013-03-12 02:23:04 <kanoi> not completely OT but of relevance - txns should actually be going into both chains? It really should only be the mined txns that are different?
2216 2013-03-12 02:23:05 <jzig_> in b4
2217 2013-03-12 02:23:08 rdymac has joined
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2220 2013-03-12 02:23:15 <jgarzik> jtimon: Yes.  0.7 may import via -loadblock=FILE
2221 2013-03-12 02:23:15 titanous has joined
2222 2013-03-12 02:23:16 <slush> jgarzik: if I understood the proposal, that 0.7 pools will need to update back to 0.8, right?
2223 2013-03-12 02:23:21 <suckitpunk> do you know if btc guild is downgraded?
2224 2013-03-12 02:23:22 <kanoi> (I mean coinbase txns)
2225 2013-03-12 02:23:25 BitVegas has joined
2226 2013-03-12 02:23:34 <DBordello> suckitpunk, yes it did
2227 2013-03-12 02:23:36 josephin has joined
2228 2013-03-12 02:23:38 <sipa> slush: first worry is getting the chains to converge
2229 2013-03-12 02:23:40 <suckitpunk> awesome
2230 2013-03-12 02:23:47 B0g4r7 has joined
2231 2013-03-12 02:23:49 <sipa> slush: the rest is for later
2232 2013-03-12 02:23:53 gercod has joined
2233 2013-03-12 02:23:55 <pizzacat> current status: 0.7 at ...438 and 0.8 at ...451
2234 2013-03-12 02:24:04 <john__> how long will it take for 0.7 to pass 0.8
2235 2013-03-12 02:24:07 kreal is now known as BIPS
2236 2013-03-12 02:24:09 <weeeee2> jtimon: Yes.  0.7 may import via -loadblock=FILE1 -loadblockFILE2... each file needs to be in a separate loadblock
2237 2013-03-12 02:24:13 <jgarzik> slush: as sipa said :)  For later, 0.8 must understand this newly discovered 0.7 limit
2238 2013-03-12 02:24:18 <Luke-Jr> slush: when 0.8.1 is released
2239 2013-03-12 02:24:23 lb4956 has joined
2240 2013-03-12 02:24:26 nomnom12312 has joined
2241 2013-03-12 02:24:30 <slush> Luke-Jr: oh, so I'll use fixed 0.8.1
2242 2013-03-12 02:24:35 <slush> it wasn't clear for me
2243 2013-03-12 02:24:44 coinUsr has joined
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2245 2013-03-12 02:24:51 dree12_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2246 2013-03-12 02:24:52 <slush> ok. I'm syncing 0.7 chain for sure, so I'll be able to switch between versions
2247 2013-03-12 02:25:00 pillarsdotnet has joined
2248 2013-03-12 02:25:03 <CodeShark> slush: it's actually .7 that needs to be fixed - but .8 needs to know of .7's limitations so this doesn't happen again
2249 2013-03-12 02:25:16 ghostface has joined
2250 2013-03-12 02:25:23 <jgarzik> +1
2251 2013-03-12 02:25:28 lmacken_ has joined
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2258 2013-03-12 02:25:45 <Luke-Jr> .7 can't be fixed or it will have the same problem
2259 2013-03-12 02:25:46 <slush> " keep the block size limit low" means?
2260 2013-03-12 02:25:56 maxhodak has joined
2261 2013-03-12 02:25:58 clawz has joined
2262 2013-03-12 02:26:00 <sipa> slush: not tweaking block size limits
2263 2013-03-12 02:26:06 llama has quit (Client Quit)
2264 2013-03-12 02:26:06 xcsler has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2265 2013-03-12 02:26:10 bitcoin-dev169 has joined
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2269 2013-03-12 02:26:21 <sipa> default 0.8 should be fine, once it's on the right chain
2270 2013-03-12 02:26:26 <jgarzik> ack
2271 2013-03-12 02:26:30 newbie has joined
2272 2013-03-12 02:26:30 Squidicuz has joined
2273 2013-03-12 02:26:33 ARMA_ has joined
2274 2013-03-12 02:26:38 <jgarzik> though network has seen tightly packed 400-500k blocks
2275 2013-03-12 02:26:43 <jgarzik> so that block size limit is probably OK too
2276 2013-03-12 02:26:44 <davout> sipa: but won't it happen again as soon as the same conditions are met ? (for 0.8)
2277 2013-03-12 02:26:46 <kanoi> sipa - sorry that's too vague you're gonna have people making tiny blocks and using your comment as reason ...
2278 2013-03-12 02:26:48 nonnomnom123 has joined
2279 2013-03-12 02:26:48 <bitcoin-dev169> What client should we be using?
2280 2013-03-12 02:26:50 <jgarzik> it's just this current block was > 900k
2281 2013-03-12 02:26:51 sawtooth has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
2282 2013-03-12 02:26:55 fathead has joined
2283 2013-03-12 02:26:56 B0g4r7 has joined
2284 2013-03-12 02:26:57 <jgarzik> bitcoin-dev169: just wait, please
2285 2013-03-12 02:27:01 voyager_ has joined
2286 2013-03-12 02:27:14 split_ has joined
2287 2013-03-12 02:27:19 tbeau1 has joined
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2290 2013-03-12 02:27:24 <bitcoin-dev169> Sorry. Trying to help.
2291 2013-03-12 02:27:25 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: perhaps I should rephrase: it's 0.7 that deviates from the correct behavior...but if a good number of nodes have "incorrect" behavior then it sort of becomes the correct behavior :p
2292 2013-03-12 02:27:27 <pillarsdotnet> How do I get "on the right chain" ? Must I delete the contents of my ~/.bitcoin/blocks directory?
2293 2013-03-12 02:27:31 sawtooth has joined
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2295 2013-03-12 02:27:42 <K1773R> pillarsdotnet, use 0.7 and ur on the right chain
2296 2013-03-12 02:27:46 aaaaaa_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2297 2013-03-12 02:27:46 forkwatcher_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2298 2013-03-12 02:27:50 i2pRelay has joined
2299 2013-03-12 02:27:55 <jgarzik> kanoi: default is ~250k.  network has seen enough 400k blocks to think that is safe.
2300 2013-03-12 02:27:55 <pillarsdotnet> I'm already using 0.8
2301 2013-03-12 02:27:57 <con__> does running a node as a non-miner help at all?
2302 2013-03-12 02:28:01 <sipa> pillarsdotnet: are you a miner or a merchant?
2303 2013-03-12 02:28:04 <bock> pillarsdotnet, just wait. if you are not mining, downgrading is optional as of current knowledge
2304 2013-03-12 02:28:09 eennaam has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2305 2013-03-12 02:28:11 nomnom123 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2306 2013-03-12 02:28:15 Observer_ has joined
2307 2013-03-12 02:28:18 <num1> con__, no.
2308 2013-03-12 02:28:25 AndIrc_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2309 2013-03-12 02:28:28 <pillarsdotnet> Just running a node -- currently it won't sync because I've got the "wrong fork"
2310 2013-03-12 02:28:31 <sipa> slush: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/blacklist
2311 2013-03-12 02:28:36 nomnom12312 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2312 2013-03-12 02:28:38 MK` has joined
2313 2013-03-12 02:28:40 <MK`> what do I do?
2314 2013-03-12 02:28:43 <CodeShark> sipa: that was fast :)
2315 2013-03-12 02:28:45 <thermoman> merchants on 0.7 don't have to worry about anything, right? just sit tight, ok?
2316 2013-03-12 02:28:47 <theymos> Did the DoS protections cause 0.7 and 0.8 to also segment on the TCP network? That's something I've been worried about since the DoS protections were added.
2317 2013-03-12 02:28:51 <Luke-Jr> [02:28:26] <random_cat> my .324 client appeared to use the .8 chain
2318 2013-03-12 02:28:53 <jgarzik> Current stock advice:  merchants should pause transaction processing.  miners should mine 0.7.  everyone else just wait.
2319 2013-03-12 02:29:05 knotwork has joined
2320 2013-03-12 02:29:05 webchatkeepsdyin has joined
2321 2013-03-12 02:29:05 sdf8ee8fdh8 has joined
2322 2013-03-12 02:29:08 <jgarzik> the 0.7 and 0.8 forks will heal
2323 2013-03-12 02:29:09 <Luke-Jr> theymos: shouldn't
2324 2013-03-12 02:29:13 <cyphase> pillarsdotnet, sit tight and you'll be fine
2325 2013-03-12 02:29:21 <Linkandzelda> how safe is it to buy coins right about now?
2326 2013-03-12 02:29:23 <pillarsdotnet> So "just wait" means "Leave bitcoin node running" or "Shut down bitcoin node" ?
2327 2013-03-12 02:29:26 ghostface has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2329 2013-03-12 02:29:28 vindimy_ has joined
2330 2013-03-12 02:29:35 <MK`> so, do I download an older wallet version?
2331 2013-03-12 02:29:39 <etotheipi_> sipa: you should change your top (or 2nd-top post) to explain that the situation is a non-issue for regular users, everyone will be safe, just wait a couple hours before continuing to use it
2332 2013-03-12 02:29:39 <cyphase> pillarsdotnet, if you're not a miner, it doesnt really matter
2333 2013-03-12 02:29:43 <jgarzik> MK`: not now, just wait
2334 2013-03-12 02:29:46 <MK`> ok
2335 2013-03-12 02:29:50 50UACDE0C has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2336 2013-03-12 02:29:51 vindimy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2337 2013-03-12 02:29:51 jfeijfe9f9efe8e has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2338 2013-03-12 02:30:00 <jgarzik> etotheipi_: ack
2339 2013-03-12 02:30:01 AndIrc_ has joined
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2342 2013-03-12 02:30:08 <etotheipi_> you explained the technical details, but you didn't explain to the laymen/regular users in Bitcoin-Discussion what they need to know
2343 2013-03-12 02:30:08 eennaam has joined
2344 2013-03-12 02:30:14 aabbcc777 has joined
2345 2013-03-12 02:30:15 maji has joined
2346 2013-03-12 02:30:22 <DBordello> What block is 0.80 on?
2347 2013-03-12 02:30:22 <pizzacat> current status: 0.7 at ...438 and 0.8 at ...451
2348 2013-03-12 02:30:23 Beefsock has joined
2349 2013-03-12 02:30:25 Raccoon has joined
2350 2013-03-12 02:30:26 MWNinja has joined
2351 2013-03-12 02:30:30 LightCode has joined
2352 2013-03-12 02:30:32 Aaron_TangCryp has joined
2353 2013-03-12 02:30:34 <JWU42> DBordello: 451
2354 2013-03-12 02:30:42 <^V> 0.7 couldn't handle a huge block that 0.8 could process
2355 2013-03-12 02:30:43 <mogri> i have set maxblocksize=400k on my bitcoind and copied the block chain from a 0.7 bitcoind
2356 2013-03-12 02:30:50 <pillarsdotnet> I *am* mining, but cgminer is connecting to the hhtt pool, not to my node.
2357 2013-03-12 02:30:51 <mogri> is it good enough?
2358 2013-03-12 02:30:54 rZ_ has quit (Quit: rZ_)
2359 2013-03-12 02:30:55 <^V> that's what happened in laymen terms
2360 2013-03-12 02:30:57 <warren> mogri: no
2361 2013-03-12 02:31:05 tbeau1_ has joined
2362 2013-03-12 02:31:05 <Luke-Jr> pillarsdotnet: change pools
2363 2013-03-12 02:31:08 Lepton has joined
2364 2013-03-12 02:31:11 <Luke-Jr> evoorhees: can you reach HHTT pool?
2365 2013-03-12 02:31:13 nomnom12232 has joined
2366 2013-03-12 02:31:16 <pillarsdotnet> Yes.
2367 2013-03-12 02:31:17 maxhodak has left ()
2368 2013-03-12 02:31:18 nsillik_ has joined
2369 2013-03-12 02:31:19 Voluntaryist has joined
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2372 2013-03-12 02:31:24 momoney has joined
2373 2013-03-12 02:31:27 <evoorhees> What's that?
2374 2013-03-12 02:31:29 <pillarsdotnet> Currently mining on the hhtt pool, in fact.
2375 2013-03-12 02:31:29 rZ_ has joined
2376 2013-03-12 02:31:29 <tbeau1_> as long as your money is already in an exchange, buying and/or selling should be fine... just don't transfer bitcoins to or from exchanges
2377 2013-03-12 02:31:30 <Raccoon> How many transactions will be lost by switching to the old chain?
2378 2013-03-12 02:31:36 <JWU42> Luke-Jr: I'll try FD as well
2379 2013-03-12 02:31:38 <sneak> pizzacat: thanks for updates
2380 2013-03-12 02:31:39 <mogri> warren: why? my bitcoind is following the 0.7 chain, not 0.8
2381 2013-03-12 02:31:48 <pillarsdotnet> Dunno if hhtt is using 0.7 or 0.8 though.
2382 2013-03-12 02:31:49 <jgarzik> Raccoon: no transactions will be lost
2383 2013-03-12 02:31:52 banghouse has joined
2384 2013-03-12 02:31:55 <Luke-Jr> evoorhees: whatever that duck-named guy who wrote SD originally runs as a pool
2385 2013-03-12 02:31:57 <Raccoon> jgarzik: that works.
2386 2013-03-12 02:32:00 <Bowjob653> I just want to know if electrum is fine
2387 2013-03-12 02:32:01 p8m has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2388 2013-03-12 02:32:02 <klmist> Raccoon, the transactiosn will all be automatically resent - the only problem is if someone doublespent
2389 2013-03-12 02:32:06 <JWU42> Luke-Jr: fireduck
2390 2013-03-12 02:32:07 <kanoi> (only coinbase transactions should be lost)
2391 2013-03-12 02:32:08 <evoorhees> he is aware of the issue
2392 2013-03-12 02:32:08 utaal has joined
2393 2013-03-12 02:32:10 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: please, not now
2394 2013-03-12 02:32:15 alkeyu has joined
2395 2013-03-12 02:32:20 <Luke-Jr> evoorhees: his pool is doing 0.8 blocks I think
2396 2013-03-12 02:32:22 <Raccoon> so, how much can I double spend right now
2397 2013-03-12 02:32:25 fsckwebchat has joined
2398 2013-03-12 02:32:27 netvope3 has joined
2399 2013-03-12 02:32:30 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: …
2400 2013-03-12 02:32:31 <evoorhees> I'll double check luke-jr
2401 2013-03-12 02:32:32 Raccoon has joined
2402 2013-03-12 02:32:34 p8m has joined
2403 2013-03-12 02:32:39 * Raccoon licks jgarzik
2404 2013-03-12 02:32:41 avocado has joined
2405 2013-03-12 02:32:46 mrkent is now known as mrkent2
2406 2013-03-12 02:32:51 Ssateneth has joined
2407 2013-03-12 02:32:51 <mogri> Raccoon: no
2408 2013-03-12 02:32:54 douzto has joined
2409 2013-03-12 02:32:57 oneman has joined
2410 2013-03-12 02:33:04 <mogri> this is not the same thing as CAPAB \r\n ;p
2411 2013-03-12 02:33:05 * Raccoon plays some SD
2412 2013-03-12 02:33:11 webchatkeepsdyin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2413 2013-03-12 02:33:11 nonnomnom123 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2414 2013-03-12 02:33:18 <Raccoon> mogri: <3
2415 2013-03-12 02:33:21 <kanoi> someone kick him please ...
2416 2013-03-12 02:33:36 vindimy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2417 2013-03-12 02:33:36 tbeau1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2420 2013-03-12 02:33:42 mrkent2 is now known as mrkent
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2422 2013-03-12 02:33:50 <evoorhees> luke-jr: he said yes it's running .8 and he'll fix when he can
2423 2013-03-12 02:34:01 <Chaang-Noi> quick question, how long is the .,7 chain and how long is the .8 chain and eta until problem fixed? ball park numbers are fine.
2424 2013-03-12 02:34:02 sapientidiot has joined
2425 2013-03-12 02:34:05 <alkeyu> is slush on 0.8?
2426 2013-03-12 02:34:07 <banghouse> i have a transaction pending on coinbase - should I be worried about it?
2427 2013-03-12 02:34:09 <mogri> so, if i have verified that my 0.8 bitcoind is following the 0.7 chain, and maxblocksize is set to 400kb, why is that not enough?
2428 2013-03-12 02:34:16 eennaam has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2429 2013-03-12 02:34:17 <egecko> been awhile... whats the chain length difference?
2430 2013-03-12 02:34:20 tbeau1_ has quit (Client Quit)
2431 2013-03-12 02:34:21 <slush> alkeyu: I'm syncing 0.7
2432 2013-03-12 02:34:23 zbxg has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2433 2013-03-12 02:34:28 <sipa> slush: wait a second with my patch
2434 2013-03-12 02:34:30 <MK`> Thanks, slush.
2435 2013-03-12 02:34:33 * mogri is confused :|
2436 2013-03-12 02:34:34 <warren> mogri: won't it switch to the longer chain if it sees other 0.8 nodes?
2437 2013-03-12 02:34:38 <joako> And mining an a pool? Are there known pools still running 0.8 that should be avoided?
2438 2013-03-12 02:34:41 swd has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2439 2013-03-12 02:34:48 <alkeyu> 0.8 is 225451
2440 2013-03-12 02:34:50 <mogri> warren, i don't think so
2441 2013-03-12 02:34:51 bitcoin-dev169 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2442 2013-03-12 02:34:54 <alkeyu> thanks slush
2443 2013-03-12 02:34:56 <JWU42> joako: HHTT still on 0.8 for now
2444 2013-03-12 02:34:56 wubino has joined
2445 2013-03-12 02:34:57 <slush> can people who don't solve this issue please shut up?
2446 2013-03-12 02:34:59 <Luke-Jr> evoorhees: will it be a while? we can cut off his pool's connection to save him the expense until he gives the word, if so..
2447 2013-03-12 02:35:03 Internet151 has joined
2448 2013-03-12 02:35:03 <jgarzik> warren: all versions of bitcoind/Bitcoin-Qt will follow the strongest chain that appears valid
2449 2013-03-12 02:35:04 <slush> It's hard to do something and follow it here
2450 2013-03-12 02:35:06 Shuro3 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2451 2013-03-12 02:35:07 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2452 2013-03-12 02:35:07 gotnate has joined
2453 2013-03-12 02:35:24 <DBordello> 12 blocks to go
2454 2013-03-12 02:35:27 <warren> jgarzik: Thus mogri is incorrect, IIUIC
2455 2013-03-12 02:35:29 sapientidiot_ has joined
2456 2013-03-12 02:35:31 <num1> +m seems like a really good idea
2457 2013-03-12 02:35:31 <kanoi> another 0.7 block 225439 (but no idea who mined it)
2458 2013-03-12 02:35:37 <anachron> Why not mute the channel, and just voice the people who should be speaking.
2459 2013-03-12 02:35:37 <davout> Chaang-Noi: approx 12 blocks difference
2460 2013-03-12 02:35:38 Petertodd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2461 2013-03-12 02:35:40 zbxg has joined
2462 2013-03-12 02:35:42 nomnomnom123123 has joined
2463 2013-03-12 02:35:43 <jgarzik> anachron: how?
2464 2013-03-12 02:35:47 <B0g4r7> mode +m
2465 2013-03-12 02:35:53 <Chaang-Noi> davout so maybe 3 hours and issue is solved?
2466 2013-03-12 02:35:56 <anachron> Isn't there a +m / moderated mode
2467 2013-03-12 02:35:58 i2pRelay has joined
2468 2013-03-12 02:35:59 hydrogenesis has joined
2469 2013-03-12 02:36:11 <Eleuthria> All BTC Guild servers now on 0.7
2470 2013-03-12 02:36:13 gopher2x has joined
2471 2013-03-12 02:36:14 <novusordo> will the miners on the losing chain lose their mined BTC?
2472 2013-03-12 02:36:23 polpaul has joined
2473 2013-03-12 02:36:26 <K1773R> novusordo, if its a 0.8 chainblock: yes
2474 2013-03-12 02:36:35 herpalerpasherpa has joined
2475 2013-03-12 02:36:35 <Luke-Jr> Eleuthria: added to -mining topic
2476 2013-03-12 02:36:38 kAntonio has joined
2477 2013-03-12 02:36:48 sdfrt5 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2478 2013-03-12 02:36:48 <gmaxwell> novusordo: and get it back on the other chain if they switch promptly.
2479 2013-03-12 02:36:53 jMyles has joined
2480 2013-03-12 02:36:59 <CodeShark> is rebuilding with sipa's patch faster than rebuilding the block chain for most miners?
2481 2013-03-12 02:37:05 sacredchao has joined
2482 2013-03-12 02:37:10 casshern has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2483 2013-03-12 02:37:18 <jgarzik> wtf?
2484 2013-03-12 02:37:21 nomnom12232 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2485 2013-03-12 02:37:27 <Luke-Jr> lianj needs voice
2486 2013-03-12 02:37:39 darwin_ has joined
2487 2013-03-12 02:37:41 defusesec has joined
2488 2013-03-12 02:37:42 jaake has joined
2489 2013-03-12 02:37:48 <lianj> banghouse: once the reorg happens, coinbase txs will be regenerated if necessary
2490 2013-03-12 02:38:10 simmoi has joined
2491 2013-03-12 02:38:11 sapientidiot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2492 2013-03-12 02:38:13 italianssss has joined
2493 2013-03-12 02:38:15 <CodeShark> would it be a good idea to make binaries with sipa's patch?
2494 2013-03-12 02:38:17 uubu has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
2495 2013-03-12 02:38:20 <CodeShark> to distribute to miners
2496 2013-03-12 02:38:28 <sipa> CodeShark: once it works, maybe
2497 2013-03-12 02:38:31 davout_ has joined
2498 2013-03-12 02:38:36 <sipa> but i think most miners run their self-compiled binaries
2499 2013-03-12 02:38:39 <Luke-Jr> lianj: call it something else, "coinbase txs" means something different here -.-
2500 2013-03-12 02:38:45 johnsoft_ has joined
2501 2013-03-12 02:38:47 <CodeShark> sipa: argh...
2502 2013-03-12 02:38:50 thesheff17 has joined
2503 2013-03-12 02:38:55 <CodeShark> hmm
2504 2013-03-12 02:39:00 <lianj> Luke-Jr: yea, 50-50 chance it was about the site
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2508 2013-03-12 02:39:22 <Eleuthria> 225440
2509 2013-03-12 02:39:23 piuk has joined
2510 2013-03-12 02:39:34 <CodeShark> sipa: need help testing?
2511 2013-03-12 02:39:41 eric___ has joined
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2528 2013-03-12 02:41:49 pillarsdotnet is now known as pillarZZZdotnet
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2530 2013-03-12 02:42:01 pillarZZZdotnet is now known as pillarsdotnet
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2536 2013-03-12 02:42:46 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: irc2go)
2537 2013-03-12 02:42:54 <slush> sipa: I found backup of blockchain, I just copied it to server and syncing now
2538 2013-03-12 02:42:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2539 2013-03-12 02:42:57 xjrn has joined
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2541 2013-03-12 02:43:05 nelisky has quit (Quit: nelisky)
2542 2013-03-12 02:43:06 <wizkid057> well, at least the broken chain is somewhat slowing down
2543 2013-03-12 02:43:13 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2544 2013-03-12 02:43:15 Whitez- is now known as jonwaller
2545 2013-03-12 02:43:38 blubex has quit (Client Quit)
2546 2013-03-12 02:43:40 mrkent has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2547 2013-03-12 02:43:40 i2pRelay has joined
2548 2013-03-12 02:43:47 LiquidBits has joined
2549 2013-03-12 02:43:49 <evoorhees> luke-jr: he says it'll be about 30 mins
2550 2013-03-12 02:43:49 silentobserver has joined
2551 2013-03-12 02:44:00 <evoorhees> he wants to know how you can cut anything on his pool? PM me
2552 2013-03-12 02:44:02 con__ is now known as conman
2553 2013-03-12 02:44:04 <Luke-Jr> evoorhees: ok, probably not worth the effort then
2554 2013-03-12 02:44:29 freechode has joined
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2564 2013-03-12 02:46:32 paybitcoin1 has joined
2565 2013-03-12 02:46:38 <slush> sipa: -nofailsafe slows down bitcoind?
2566 2013-03-12 02:46:42 casascius has joined
2567 2013-03-12 02:46:59 alsdkfj has joined
2568 2013-03-12 02:47:01 elkingrey has joined
2569 2013-03-12 02:47:07 <DBordello> Any way to override the error code on 0.7.2?
2570 2013-03-12 02:47:09 Batteryfire has joined
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2578 2013-03-12 02:47:42 <K1773R> status of the chains atm? (ditched my 0.8)
2579 2013-03-12 02:47:43 <sipa> slush: it shouldn't
2580 2013-03-12 02:47:48 stochasm has joined
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2582 2013-03-12 02:47:50 <sipa> slush: -nosafemode, you mean
2583 2013-03-12 02:47:53 <lianj> K1773R: https://coinbase.com/network/blocks
2584 2013-03-12 02:47:57 <slush> yep
2585 2013-03-12 02:48:07 Ry4an has joined
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2587 2013-03-12 02:48:11 <K1773R> ah fine, thougd its stuck too, nvm then
2588 2013-03-12 02:48:21 tareffe has joined
2589 2013-03-12 02:48:23 <jgarzik> Good for-normal-users post by etotheipi_ at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152030.msg1613724#msg1613724
2590 2013-03-12 02:48:25 sashman has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2595 2013-03-12 02:48:54 <Luke-Jr> DBordello: -nosafemode
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2601 2013-03-12 02:49:52 <DBordello> Luke-Jr, ./bitcoind -nosafemode -daemon doesn't seem to do that
2602 2013-03-12 02:49:53 Pettsobananen has joined
2603 2013-03-12 02:50:06 <jgarzik> If people need support, please use #bitcoin.  If you are a large miner or programmer and can contribute to the discussion in a noise-free manner, feel free to /msg me for voice.
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2612 2013-03-12 02:50:53 <pizzacat> current status: 0.7 at ...440 and 0.8 at ...451
2613 2013-03-12 02:51:00 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2614 2013-03-12 02:51:01 <petertodd> Power back, lemme know if you need anything tested.
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2622 2013-03-12 02:52:01 <jgarzik> petertodd: dissecting the big block in question is still useful
2623 2013-03-12 02:52:02 Nameface1 has joined
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2626 2013-03-12 02:52:23 <petertodd> cool, hash?
2627 2013-03-12 02:52:25 mtrlt has left ()
2628 2013-03-12 02:52:33 <petertodd> I probably have it on my 0.7 node that seems to have crashed
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2638 2013-03-12 02:53:20 <Eleuthria> Just a question from my pool channel:  How many people/who has the ability to broadcast the alert messages that users received?
2639 2013-03-12 02:54:02 atweiden has joined
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2641 2013-03-12 02:54:11 <slush> Eleuthria: gavin has keys
2642 2013-03-12 02:54:13 iwanttoknow has joined
2643 2013-03-12 02:54:18 <Eleuthria> Is Gavin the only one though?
2644 2013-03-12 02:54:42 dmp1ce has joined
2645 2013-03-12 02:54:45 <Luke-Jr> at the moment, I believe so
2646 2013-03-12 02:54:50 ahdinosa1r has joined
2647 2013-03-12 02:54:51 <Luke-Jr> and Satoshi
2648 2013-03-12 02:54:54 Hell304 has joined
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2652 2013-03-12 02:55:07 <gmaxwell> tcatm does, IIRC.
2653 2013-03-12 02:55:16 blah has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2655 2013-03-12 02:55:34 <Luke-Jr> theymos has alert key as well
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2661 2013-03-12 02:56:09 <theymos> gmaxwell: Does he? I wasn't aware of that. The wiki page should be updated.
2662 2013-03-12 02:56:16 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2663 2013-03-12 02:56:21 <sipa> gmaxwell: not that i know
2664 2013-03-12 02:56:27 <gmaxwell> okay, I was confused then!
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2670 2013-03-12 02:56:57 <slush> that syncing is so fucking slow
2671 2013-03-12 02:57:11 <sipa> SetBestChain: new best=0000000000000025fcc0c001b11e542ae73dc4d9edc9ed9d82627563a2af5d81  height=225440  work=853798385733838167024  tx=1
2672 2013-03-12 02:57:13 piuk_ has joined
2673 2013-03-12 02:57:17 <sipa> is that the best 0.7 block?
2674 2013-03-12 02:57:21 <Eleuthria> yes
2675 2013-03-12 02:57:25 <sipa> \o/ patch works
2676 2013-03-12 02:57:57 bitcoin-dev238 has joined
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2679 2013-03-12 02:58:14 <pizzacat> current status: 0.7 at ...440 and 0.8 at ...451
2680 2013-03-12 02:58:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: if your patch is anything but a checkpoint at the forking height.. are you very sure it is correct?
2681 2013-03-12 02:58:40 <Eleuthria> My concern with going back to 0.8 is if another block does it again
2682 2013-03-12 02:58:42 <Eleuthria> We fork again.
2683 2013-03-12 02:58:51 Deux has joined
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2685 2013-03-12 02:59:01 <sipa> gmaxwell: it sets the "failed" flag on the block index entry
2686 2013-03-12 02:59:05 jMyles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2687 2013-03-12 02:59:18 jankins has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2688 2013-03-12 02:59:30 <sipa> gmaxwell: that should have been all, except the logic for finding the new best block wasn't ready to deal with such retroactive changes
2689 2013-03-12 02:59:32 i2pRelay has joined
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2691 2013-03-12 02:59:54 <slush> sipa: ok, can me instruct how I should use that patch?
2692 2013-03-12 02:59:54 CryptoJunky has joined
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2695 2013-03-12 03:00:00 <slush> Is that branch of stable 0.7?
2696 2013-03-12 03:00:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: ah. yea, its good to get the retroactive support in... might not be the right conditions for it though. :P
2697 2013-03-12 03:00:01 vampireb has joined
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2699 2013-03-12 03:00:16 <slush> just compile and run over .bitcoin from 0.8?
2700 2013-03-12 03:00:17 <Luke-Jr> Eleuthria: yeah, probably safest to wait for 0.8.1 IMO
2701 2013-03-12 03:00:27 Argo_n has joined
2702 2013-03-12 03:00:35 <sipa> slush: sure, run it, and do: ./bitcoind blacklistblock ./bitcoind blacklistblock 000000000000015c50b165fcdd33556f8b44800c5298943ac70b112df480c023
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2705 2013-03-12 03:00:39 <gmaxwell> as Eleuthria says though, if another one of these blocks happen 0.8 w/ just that fix will fork again.
2706 2013-03-12 03:00:49 <sipa> (and for the love of god, check that that is the right block; i'm falling asleep now)
2707 2013-03-12 03:00:51 unalias has joined
2708 2013-03-12 03:00:52 <slush> I don't know why, but syncing of 0.7 is incredibly slow. Like one block per 20 seconds. HDD is spinning on 100%
2709 2013-03-12 03:00:58 mughat3 has joined
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2711 2013-03-12 03:01:03 <sipa> slush: why do you think we made 0.8...
2712 2013-03-12 03:01:07 <Eleuthria> ^
2713 2013-03-12 03:01:11 cpt_charisma_ has joined
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2715 2013-03-12 03:01:13 <Eleuthria> That's one of the reasons I moved all my servers to 0.8
2716 2013-03-12 03:01:13 conman has left ()
2717 2013-03-12 03:01:25 <Eleuthria> The transaction verification was so much faster than it reduced stales significantly
2718 2013-03-12 03:01:26 <slush> oh, so that patch just allows to blacklist some block
2719 2013-03-12 03:01:27 <CodeShark> sipa: trying to test out your patch...but still waiting for one of my servers
2720 2013-03-12 03:01:47 <sipa> slush: yup, and it will automatically reorganise away
2721 2013-03-12 03:01:54 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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2723 2013-03-12 03:01:56 <gmaxwell> Anyone who is a developer, pool up, service technical contact, or other person who isn't just going to gab. please /msg me for voice.
2724 2013-03-12 03:01:57 <slush> sipa: link to that branch please?
2725 2013-03-12 03:02:20 neilcoleman78 has joined
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2727 2013-03-12 03:02:20 <sipa> slush: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/blacklist
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2731 2013-03-12 03:02:33 <doublec> for those wondering about stopping safe mode, it's -disablesafemode not -nosafemode
2732 2013-03-12 03:02:42 <sipa> doublec: oh, thanks for that
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2739 2013-03-12 03:02:59 <sipa> slush: it's against 0.8.0 final
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2741 2013-03-12 03:03:20 <Luke-Jr> sorry :<
2742 2013-03-12 03:03:29 Oksigen has joined
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2744 2013-03-12 03:03:44 <WKNiGHT> thanks.. and thanks for the feedback doublec
2745 2013-03-12 03:03:45 pointychimp has joined
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2747 2013-03-12 03:03:58 <doublec> np
2748 2013-03-12 03:04:00 <gmaxwell> jeffgarzik is /msging me telling me that jgarzik is an imposter.
2749 2013-03-12 03:04:05 jzig has joined
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2758 2013-03-12 03:04:48 <slush> building
2759 2013-03-12 03:04:50 <Eleuthria> Leaping ahead here
2760 2013-03-12 03:05:04 bwen has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2761 2013-03-12 03:05:05 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: obviously he isn't, considering nickserv
2762 2013-03-12 03:05:06 AMDchild has joined
2763 2013-03-12 03:05:07 <slush> sipa: when do you think permanent fix will be ready? I cannot sit behind computer all days
2764 2013-03-12 03:05:09 <Eleuthria> Is it time for another P2SH-style/version2 style voting for when it will be safe to eventually do this hardfork?
2765 2013-03-12 03:05:19 t4nk926 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2766 2013-03-12 03:05:23 <Eleuthria> Since the 0.7 issue is in fact a bug
2767 2013-03-12 03:05:23 <Luke-Jr> Eleuthria: you can't vote a hardfork
2768 2013-03-12 03:05:25 <sipa> Eleuthria: unfortunately, no voting can tell you that
2769 2013-03-12 03:05:32 <Eleuthria> Well, not voting
2770 2013-03-12 03:05:37 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: this can't be mining decided, it's not a hardfork.
2771 2013-03-12 03:05:39 <sipa> slush: what permanent fix?
2772 2013-03-12 03:05:41 MemoryDealers_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2773 2013-03-12 03:05:49 MrCoinman has joined
2774 2013-03-12 03:05:58 <Eleuthria> But we need someway to determine when it will be safe to obsolete v0.7
2775 2013-03-12 03:06:05 Stilger has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2777 2013-03-12 03:06:12 <Eleuthria> Unless we just carry an artificial limit caused by a bug forever.
2778 2013-03-12 03:06:15 <Luke-Jr> Eleuthria: it's not that simple either :p
2779 2013-03-12 03:06:16 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: it would have to be a height triggered timed fix... but it's likely the case the the actual fix will not be very invasive.
2780 2013-03-12 03:06:22 bernard75 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2781 2013-03-12 03:06:22 <Luke-Jr> Eleuthria: 0.8.1 will enforce the limit too
2782 2013-03-12 03:06:26 BTCTrader2 has quit (Quit: BTCTrader2)
2783 2013-03-12 03:06:30 <slush> sipa: you told that this issue (fork because of 0.7 bug) can happen again
2784 2013-03-12 03:06:51 <Eleuthria> slush:  It can happen again if 0.8 chain gets yet another block that isn't valid on 0.7
2785 2013-03-12 03:06:57 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: once we're sure we completely understand the limit we'll impose it in 0.8.1. Likely it will just slightly limit the number of very small transactions in a block or similar.
2786 2013-03-12 03:07:02 <Eleuthria> slush:  At least until a patched 0.8 is available that won't accept blocks that cause the fork
2787 2013-03-12 03:07:06 <sipa> slush, Eleuthria that would be unlikely to happen soon
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2793 2013-03-12 03:07:37 <Eleuthria> 225441 vs 225452 now
2794 2013-03-12 03:07:38 <pizzacat> current status: 0.7 at ...441 and 0.8 at ...452
2795 2013-03-12 03:07:42 <sipa> as a majority of mining power is on either 0.7 or 0.8 without large blocks setting, there should be no offending blocks again
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2810 2013-03-12 03:09:30 <theymos> On the bright side, since a hardfork will probably now be necessary sooner, we'll get hardfork wishlist stuff sooner.
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2817 2013-03-12 03:09:53 <petertodd> theymos: I really doubt anyone feels like taking that risk.
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2823 2013-03-12 03:10:26 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I'm assuming 0.8.1 will be a one-fix-only so we can skip RCs?
2824 2013-03-12 03:10:28 <gmaxwell> theymos: current data doesn't suggest that a hardfork would be needed sooner.
2825 2013-03-12 03:10:33 jd is now known as Guest64079
2826 2013-03-12 03:10:39 <gmaxwell> Certantly rushing something like that would be insanely risky.
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2833 2013-03-12 03:11:24 <sipa> slush: can you let me know whether blacklistblock works?
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2835 2013-03-12 03:11:34 <gmaxwell> theymos: fix will be some minor tweak like capping inputs + outputs to 10,000 or whatever it turns out the bdb behavior is imposing.
2836 2013-03-12 03:11:37 <CodeShark> sipa: I'm trying it out, too
2837 2013-03-12 03:11:41 swiftgeek has joined
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2839 2013-03-12 03:11:46 <slush> sipa: of course, I'm just making backup of .bitcoind , for sure
2840 2013-03-12 03:11:50 Deux has joined
2841 2013-03-12 03:11:52 <sipa> slush: of course
2842 2013-03-12 03:11:52 <slush> it is compiled already
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2844 2013-03-12 03:12:00 <pizzacat> difference on chain length went from 13 to 11. version 0.7 seems to be catching up on these first sights
2845 2013-03-12 03:12:00 zbxg_ has joined
2846 2013-03-12 03:12:07 <sipa> good
2847 2013-03-12 03:12:21 tracy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2849 2013-03-12 03:12:43 <pizzacat> is there a way to confirm there is a majority of miners generating 0.7 blocks?
2850 2013-03-12 03:12:53 topace_ has joined
2851 2013-03-12 03:12:56 <sipa> slush: it should even fill your mempool with all reorged blocks' transactions
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2857 2013-03-12 03:13:39 <slush> sipa: I disabled blockmaxsize= and others in bitcoin.conf. I suppose builtin defaults are best for this situation, right?
2858 2013-03-12 03:13:51 <sipa> slush: yes, they should be safe
2859 2013-03-12 03:13:55 <novusordo> could a patch be released for previous versions of bitcoin to accomodate a hardfork at some point? that way, people who are hesitant about upgrading to newer versions could still choose to vote in favor of the fork.
2860 2013-03-12 03:13:56 bjorn_248 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2861 2013-03-12 03:14:22 <novusordo> (speaking in terms of the distant future)
2862 2013-03-12 03:14:22 <theymos> gmaxwell: I meant that a hardfork will now be necessary in 1-2 years rather than 3-4 years due to decreased maximum tx volume, not immediately. (Though maybe not, if the number of possible transactions is still high.)
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2866 2013-03-12 03:14:35 <gmaxwell> novusordo: there is no mechnism available for users to vote.
2867 2013-03-12 03:14:39 clawz has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2868 2013-03-12 03:14:44 <novusordo> voting with choice of client, i mean.
2869 2013-03-12 03:14:44 <slush> ok, what's correct blockheight now?
2870 2013-03-12 03:14:48 <slush> 225441?
2871 2013-03-12 03:14:52 <gmaxwell> theymos: I don't believe this actually results in a non-trivial decrease in volume.
2872 2013-03-12 03:15:01 <pizzacat> current status: 0.7 at ...441 and 0.8 at ...452
2873 2013-03-12 03:15:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2874 2013-03-12 03:15:01 <sipa> slush: i think so, yes
2875 2013-03-12 03:15:04 meonkeys has left ()
2876 2013-03-12 03:15:07 <pizzacat> slush, guess so
2877 2013-03-12 03:15:14 stikonas has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2878 2013-03-12 03:15:16 user11 has joined
2879 2013-03-12 03:15:24 <slush> looks like patch helped
2880 2013-03-12 03:15:26 <K1773R> theymos, maybe its even a good idea to do it sooner since this fork will push out alot of attention even to users who dont check the news
2881 2013-03-12 03:15:27 <slush> checking it now
2882 2013-03-12 03:15:40 <pizzacat> slush, awesome :)
2883 2013-03-12 03:15:44 i2pRelay has joined
2884 2013-03-12 03:15:48 <gmaxwell> (esp since 0.7 passes the test blocks that have a maximum number of transactions, it looks like it's a high output count required to trigger it)
2885 2013-03-12 03:15:52 LF_ has joined
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2889 2013-03-12 03:16:21 piuk__ has joined
2890 2013-03-12 03:16:22 <sipa> gmaxwell: i expect it to be related to the total number of modified entries in the txindex
2891 2013-03-12 03:16:24 marioman_ has joined
2892 2013-03-12 03:16:33 <sipa> gmaxwell: which is related (but not identical to) outputs + inputs
2893 2013-03-12 03:16:38 mus_ has left ()
2894 2013-03-12 03:16:46 <slush> 0000000000000133ecdb94ba8017e2977aefe3e497c48c849e3f9c4c7a091564
2895 2013-03-12 03:16:49 <slush> current prevhash?
2896 2013-03-12 03:17:06 Arbition has joined
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2902 2013-03-12 03:17:27 <CodeShark> I believe so, slush
2903 2013-03-12 03:17:31 doost has joined
2904 2013-03-12 03:17:32 <slush> ok, looks fixed
2905 2013-03-12 03:17:40 <CodeShark> great
2906 2013-03-12 03:17:45 <slush> sipa: thank you very much
2907 2013-03-12 03:17:46 alexbeal has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2911 2013-03-12 03:17:49 <sipa> slush: confirm
2912 2013-03-12 03:18:02 lnostdal has joined
2913 2013-03-12 03:18:06 <slush> it would take ages to sync with 0.7
2914 2013-03-12 03:18:10 <petertodd> Interesting, FWIW my 0.7 node on a EC2 micro instance crashed just after 225427, not 225429 or 225430
2915 2013-03-12 03:18:11 Deux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2917 2013-03-12 03:18:11 jzig has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2918 2013-03-12 03:18:25 <nanotube> so is there a list of pools safe to mine on now?
2919 2013-03-12 03:18:26 <sipa> petertodd: crashed or got stuck?
2920 2013-03-12 03:18:29 tral has joined
2921 2013-03-12 03:18:29 Whomever has joined
2922 2013-03-12 03:18:33 <CodeShark> if it works then it should be made available to all miners running 0.8 right now
2923 2013-03-12 03:18:36 waitingwatching has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2924 2013-03-12 03:18:36 <petertodd> sipa: Crashed, without even any error message in the logs.
2925 2013-03-12 03:18:55 davout_ has joined
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2929 2013-03-12 03:19:04 <Graet> nanotube, someone started a thread in pools subforum
2930 2013-03-12 03:19:10 xempew has joined
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2935 2013-03-12 03:19:28 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I'd be somewhat concerned about someone creating another similar block, esp if people don't know to also set their target blocksize back down.
2936 2013-03-12 03:19:32 user11 has quit (Client Quit)
2937 2013-03-12 03:19:33 <Luke-Jr> nanotube: #bitcoin-mining topic
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2939 2013-03-12 03:19:55 Vladimir has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2940 2013-03-12 03:20:00 <petertodd> sipa: On restart, I got the expected ERROR: ConnectBlock() : UpdateTxIndex failed at 225430
2941 2013-03-12 03:20:02 qualiabyte has joined
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2946 2013-03-12 03:20:40 <pizzacat> current status: 0.7 at ...441 and 0.8 at ...452
2947 2013-03-12 03:20:41 marioman_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2948 2013-03-12 03:20:41 john__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2949 2013-03-12 03:20:47 davout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2950 2013-03-12 03:20:57 davout_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2951 2013-03-12 03:21:04 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: we can make a patch that just uses the default settings for that
2952 2013-03-12 03:21:31 markio has joined
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2955 2013-03-12 03:21:39 Garr255_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2956 2013-03-12 03:21:41 piuk has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2960 2013-03-12 03:21:55 <gmaxwell> sipa: apparently you are the signular core developer now. :P  (re: gavin's chainfork.html )
2961 2013-03-12 03:21:56 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: did you see bitcointroll? "Be sure to set your limits under 500k!" "Is 750k okay?"
2962 2013-03-12 03:22:07 <slush> theymos: is blockexplorer patched? Can I use it for checking which blocks are valid/invalid in this situation?
2963 2013-03-12 03:22:13 smickles has joined
2964 2013-03-12 03:22:15 Garrett__ has joined
2965 2013-03-12 03:22:19 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: refresh and that typo should be fixed
2966 2013-03-12 03:22:20 <Luke-Jr> slush: IIRC BBE was always working before
2967 2013-03-12 03:22:29 johnsoft_ is now known as johnsoft
2968 2013-03-12 03:22:35 <slush> if I understood the situation well, the fork has been made by my pool, mining 990k block, right? :)
2969 2013-03-12 03:22:38 jepeyo has quit (Quit: irc2go)
2970 2013-03-12 03:22:39 Garrett__ is now known as Guest25091
2971 2013-03-12 03:22:48 <theymos> slush: I no longer run BBE. When I sold it, it was running 0.6 or 0.7, though this may have changed.
2972 2013-03-12 03:23:02 <sipa> slush: i think it is unlikely that it is purely caused by its size
2973 2013-03-12 03:23:02 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2974 2013-03-12 03:23:06 <Luke-Jr> theymos: who is now?
2975 2013-03-12 03:23:06 D34TH has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2976 2013-03-12 03:23:12 forkwatch has joined
2977 2013-03-12 03:23:13 <theymos> Luke-Jr: Liraz Siri
2978 2013-03-12 03:23:18 <Luke-Jr> who? :/
2979 2013-03-12 03:23:34 <theymos> Luke-Jr: http://liraz.org/
2980 2013-03-12 03:23:37 netvope3 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2981 2013-03-12 03:23:44 i2pRelay has joined
2982 2013-03-12 03:23:48 <sipa> i'm going to sleep now
2983 2013-03-12 03:23:48 Mp5shooter has left ()
2984 2013-03-12 03:23:50 i0X has joined
2985 2013-03-12 03:24:02 <nanotube> Graet: Luke-Jr thanks :)
2986 2013-03-12 03:24:04 <petertodd> OK, and looking at my 0.7 node, it seems to have followed the chain that was supposed to fail, but with copious error messages, and it's in safe mode. Is this expected? ERROR: SetBestChain() : Reorganize failed and so on.
2987 2013-03-12 03:24:05 ocminer_ has joined
2988 2013-03-12 03:24:17 joshsm1 has joined
2989 2013-03-12 03:24:25 <jgarzik> sipa: cheers
2990 2013-03-12 03:24:29 camolist has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2991 2013-03-12 03:24:32 <CodeShark> thanks, sipa
2992 2013-03-12 03:24:35 <jgarzik> sipa: thanks for being awake when this happened ;p
2993 2013-03-12 03:24:48 ocminer has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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3002 2013-03-12 03:26:13 joshsm1 is now known as joshsm
3003 2013-03-12 03:26:13 <K1773R> im out too, gl with it. cya
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3012 2013-03-12 03:26:54 <jgarzik> If people need support, please use #bitcoin.  If you are a large miner or programmer and can contribute to the discussion in a noise-free manner, feel free to /msg me for voice.
3013 2013-03-12 03:26:58 tir93gjz0zz3 has joined
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3021 2013-03-12 03:28:15 <Graet> i missed it, sipa has a patch for 0.8?
3022 2013-03-12 03:28:23 <Graet> can i do that rather than downgrade?
3023 2013-03-12 03:28:27 <slush> still 225441?
3024 2013-03-12 03:28:33 <Eleuthria> It's a band-aid fix, yes
3025 2013-03-12 03:28:42 <Eleuthria> 225441 is still the top on 0.7 chain, yes
3026 2013-03-12 03:28:48 <Graet> be quicker than coping blockchains around
3027 2013-03-12 03:28:51 <Luke-Jr> Graet: it trusts the rest of the network not to mine another bad block
3028 2013-03-12 03:28:55 <pizzacat> slush, as far as i can see, yes
3029 2013-03-12 03:29:08 <anachron> Not sure how crucial interpersonal-communications between devs &  miners is/has  been in this little crisis, if a good outcome here was contingent on people just happening to be around/online at the right time, hope you'll make your comms channels (i.e. phone?) stronger
3030 2013-03-12 03:29:18 wubino has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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3033 2013-03-12 03:29:31 gwillickers has joined
3034 2013-03-12 03:29:38 <CodeShark> what was the block hash of the offending block again?
3035 2013-03-12 03:29:51 <CodeShark> 000000000000015c50b165fcdd33556f8b44800c5298943ac70b112df480c023?
3036 2013-03-12 03:29:59 marcellus_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3037 2013-03-12 03:30:15 xiangfu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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3039 2013-03-12 03:30:24 Guest25091 is now known as asdffdsa
3040 2013-03-12 03:30:26 <sipa> CodeShark: yes
3041 2013-03-12 03:30:29 Springy has joined
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3046 2013-03-12 03:31:01 <Eleuthria> jgarzik:  PM sent, fairly important
3047 2013-03-12 03:31:04 <sipa> Graet: it seems to work fine, but use on your own risk
3048 2013-03-12 03:31:07 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3049 2013-03-12 03:31:10 BTCTrader2 has joined
3050 2013-03-12 03:31:17 <Luke-Jr> GMP: do you have a non-standard bdb config in ~/.bitcoin ?
3051 2013-03-12 03:31:18 noosemoose has quit (Client Quit)
3052 2013-03-12 03:31:36 <Graet> thanks sipa in your git I assume?
3053 2013-03-12 03:31:41 Hell304 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3054 2013-03-12 03:31:42 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
3055 2013-03-12 03:31:52 <sipa> Graet: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/blacklist
3056 2013-03-12 03:31:53 i2pRelay has joined
3057 2013-03-12 03:32:07 <GMP> Luke-Jr: no
3058 2013-03-12 03:32:08 <CodeShark> could we also do this? https://github.com/CodeShark/bitcoin/commit/76a2197c0782502ec2062cb154cdc5e4654983c1
3059 2013-03-12 03:32:09 <Graet> thanks amn :)
3060 2013-03-12 03:32:10 xiangfu has joined
3061 2013-03-12 03:32:18 <Eleuthria> Anonymous /P2SH/ node just mined 225453 on 0.8 :(
3062 2013-03-12 03:32:31 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3063 2013-03-12 03:32:52 gotmilk_ has joined
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3070 2013-03-12 03:33:35 <sipa> Eleuthria: it's inevitable that some blocks will still be made on the 'new' chain, i suppose
3071 2013-03-12 03:33:41 <Eleuthria> Yeah
3072 2013-03-12 03:33:49 <Eleuthria> Just stressful watching it climb further ahead
3073 2013-03-12 03:34:07 LadyCailin has joined
3074 2013-03-12 03:34:12 <pizzacat> Eleuthria, i see, i'm waiting for another couple of minutes to make a quick and dirty calculation on speed
3075 2013-03-12 03:34:16 enarjord has joined
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3080 2013-03-12 03:35:17 zoinky has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3081 2013-03-12 03:35:27 <Eleuthria> Well, at least we caught it before any blocks on the hardfork chain were spendable.
3082 2013-03-12 03:35:38 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: more coins for you when the reorg happens. :)
3083 2013-03-12 03:35:43 <Eleuthria> gmaxwell: ?
3084 2013-03-12 03:35:53 thesheff17 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3085 2013-03-12 03:35:59 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: Any non-fixed miners are effectively not mining now.
3086 2013-03-12 03:36:07 <gmaxwell> So it's not all bad, from one perspective.
3087 2013-03-12 03:36:10 fiesh has joined
3088 2013-03-12 03:36:12 <Eleuthria> I paid miners for 3 hours of mining on PPS with a useless chain
3089 2013-03-12 03:36:21 <Eleuthria> Plus PPLNS miners which get paid for orphaned blocks
3090 2013-03-12 03:36:21 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: once it heals, most are fine even on 0.8
3091 2013-03-12 03:36:28 MarkyRamone has joined
3092 2013-03-12 03:36:28 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: it's just the few that tweaked defaults
3093 2013-03-12 03:36:30 markio has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3094 2013-03-12 03:36:35 <slush> https://coinbase.com/network/blocks
3095 2013-03-12 03:36:35 <Eleuthria> So no, I lost money from this.
3096 2013-03-12 03:36:42 gpgpt has joined
3097 2013-03-12 03:36:42 wesgarrison has joined
3098 2013-03-12 03:36:43 <slush> -> "side" is actually that preferred one, right?
3099 2013-03-12 03:36:45 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: sure sure, but right now their output is going to go poof.
3100 2013-03-12 03:36:53 <slush> I need to fix my block database to not paid orphans
3101 2013-03-12 03:36:53 <CodeShark> let's do https://github.com/CodeShark/bitcoin/commit/76a2197c0782502ec2062cb154cdc5e4654983c1 until we figure out the exact cause of the error
3102 2013-03-12 03:37:10 <CodeShark> for all users of 0.8
3103 2013-03-12 03:37:11 coqui33 has quit (Quit: Bye)
3104 2013-03-12 03:37:15 reardencode has joined
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3107 2013-03-12 03:37:29 onryo has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3108 2013-03-12 03:37:35 <Eleuthria> It could've been worse if I hadn't been able to start moving back to 0.7 quickly
3109 2013-03-12 03:37:37 <CodeShark> for miners who use 0.8, rather
3110 2013-03-12 03:37:42 <Eleuthria> But this fork cost me 150-200 BTC
3111 2013-03-12 03:37:51 Casimir1904 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3112 2013-03-12 03:37:54 <nanotube> 12 blocks behind....
3113 2013-03-12 03:37:54 zbxg_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3114 2013-03-12 03:38:01 jb17 has joined
3115 2013-03-12 03:38:03 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I'd rather it go to the 250k level while we don't know. I'm not certian that it couldn't be triggered by a somewhat smaller block.
3116 2013-03-12 03:38:03 Beefsock has left ()
3117 2013-03-12 03:38:12 <CodeShark> so /4?
3118 2013-03-12 03:38:28 <GMP> why 0.7.2 accepts 000000000000015c50b1 from disk? (-checkblocks=0 -checklevel=4)  any reliable way to trigger the event?
3119 2013-03-12 03:38:34 <slush> sipa: Non-mining 0.8 nodes will fix their blockchain once that side chain became longer, right?
3120 2013-03-12 03:38:36 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: ::sigh::  "quick! pay them all in the fork chain." :-)
3121 2013-03-12 03:38:41 fathead has joined
3122 2013-03-12 03:38:46 <Graet> ouch Eleuthria , havent even loked at costs for this yet :/
3123 2013-03-12 03:38:46 <gmaxwell> slush: yep.
3124 2013-03-12 03:38:53 derfy has joined
3125 2013-03-12 03:38:55 <sipa> gmaxwell, CodeShark: MAX_BLOCK_SIZE_GEN is 500 kB
3126 2013-03-12 03:39:01 xiangfu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3127 2013-03-12 03:39:03 <CodeShark> so then /2 is fine
3128 2013-03-12 03:39:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3129 2013-03-12 03:39:10 Guest93531 has quit (Changing host)
3130 2013-03-12 03:39:10 Guest93531 has joined
3131 2013-03-12 03:39:17 <gmaxwell> Sorry, I missed the /2.
3132 2013-03-12 03:39:18 Guest93531 is now known as mrb_
3133 2013-03-12 03:39:19 kerigan has quit ()
3134 2013-03-12 03:39:24 piuk has joined
3135 2013-03-12 03:39:26 <slush> Events such this are exactly the reason why I'm affraid to operate PPS pool
3136 2013-03-12 03:39:29 glitch003 has joined
3137 2013-03-12 03:39:33 TheButterZone is now known as TBZ1-SanDiego
3138 2013-03-12 03:39:42 i2pRelay has joined
3139 2013-03-12 03:40:01 alszar has joined
3140 2013-03-12 03:40:02 <Eleuthria> slush:  Plus last night where I lost 1254 BTC due to a bad 0.8 upgrade process...
3141 2013-03-12 03:40:10 <Eleuthria> I'm jealous that you can keep your hot wallet under 100 coins
3142 2013-03-12 03:40:11 zbxg has joined
3143 2013-03-12 03:40:34 <slush> exactly
3144 2013-03-12 03:40:42 clav8 has joined
3145 2013-03-12 03:40:42 <sipa> Eleuthria: wow... i'm really glad you're still helping us out with this, despite those losses..
3146 2013-03-12 03:40:44 joe_k has joined
3147 2013-03-12 03:40:48 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: woah. How did you lose 1254 BTC due to a bad 0.8 upgrade process? Is this something we need to be concerned about here?
3148 2013-03-12 03:40:49 bitplane has joined
3149 2013-03-12 03:40:52 zoinky has joined
3150 2013-03-12 03:41:03 <Eleuthria> gmaxwell:  It's my fault for not being diligent...
3151 2013-03-12 03:41:09 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3152 2013-03-12 03:41:10 <Eleuthria> In the past, I could upgrade bitcoind without turning off my pool server
3153 2013-03-12 03:41:12 <gmaxwell> (and is there anything we can implement to make avoiding that kind of thing harder)
3154 2013-03-12 03:41:19 <Eleuthria> ./bitcoind stop, copy the new bitcoind in, ./bitcoind &
3155 2013-03-12 03:41:32 <sipa> right, but 0.8 started reindexing automatically
3156 2013-03-12 03:41:34 <Eleuthria> But 0.8 started redownloading the block chain from scratch
3157 2013-03-12 03:41:34 user11 has joined
3158 2013-03-12 03:41:41 <Luke-Jr> I hate to say it, but.. http://bitcointroll.org/index.php?topic=119566.0;all :/
3159 2013-03-12 03:41:42 <Eleuthria> And in the about 60 seconds before I caught it
3160 2013-03-12 03:41:43 <DBordello> ah, so the diff was wrong?
3161 2013-03-12 03:41:45 <sipa> so it saw lower block couns for a while
3162 2013-03-12 03:41:51 <Eleuthria> Some users were getting paid for shares of network diff=1
3163 2013-03-12 03:41:58 <jgarzik> _mined_ at lower block counts for a while ;p
3164 2013-03-12 03:42:14 marioman_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3165 2013-03-12 03:42:14 <Eleuthria> And before I caught that, 16 users were able to drain the hot wallet to 0
3166 2013-03-12 03:42:15 <DBordello> Eleuthria, how long?
3167 2013-03-12 03:42:21 Argo_n has quit (Quit:  Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-)
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3170 2013-03-12 03:42:29 <Eleuthria> DBordello:  I turned off the pool within a minute
3171 2013-03-12 03:42:35 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: crazy! :-/ but bitcoind by itself won't allow mining when its below the checkpoint. But I guess you have some extra infrastructure.
3172 2013-03-12 03:42:38 <Eleuthria> But I didn't realize the shares were getting credited.
3173 2013-03-12 03:42:40 <DBordello> Eleuthria, wow
3174 2013-03-12 03:42:46 newbie has joined
3175 2013-03-12 03:42:50 <DBordello> I am sorry to hear that
3176 2013-03-12 03:42:55 <Eleuthria> And unfortunately
3177 2013-03-12 03:43:02 <Eleuthria> Of the 16, only one person (47 BTC) has paid it back
3178 2013-03-12 03:43:08 welovecp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3179 2013-03-12 03:43:12 <gmaxwell> :(
3180 2013-03-12 03:43:15 wubino has joined
3181 2013-03-12 03:43:17 hydrogenesis has joined
3182 2013-03-12 03:43:21 rdymac has joined
3183 2013-03-12 03:43:23 <Eleuthria> Another (47 BTC) sent an email mocking me.  And the rest are silent (but they sure turned off their miners/made new accounts quick)
3184 2013-03-12 03:43:25 ThiagoCMC has joined
3185 2013-03-12 03:43:32 joeblack has joined
3186 2013-03-12 03:43:39 <DBordello> IP logs any use?
3187 2013-03-12 03:43:39 <gmaxwell> If anyone here was a beneficiary of that I think you should pay it back, for the nothing that thats worth.
3188 2013-03-12 03:43:59 <petertodd> Eleuthria: Automatic payouts 'eh? :( There is something to be said for abnormal volume triggers in Bitcoin related stuff. Damn that sucks.
3189 2013-03-12 03:44:08 zbxg_ has joined
3190 2013-03-12 03:44:09 <Eleuthria> Not auto payouts
3191 2013-03-12 03:44:11 <Eleuthria> Manual
3192 2013-03-12 03:44:14 <Eleuthria> And there wasn't much abnormal
3193 2013-03-12 03:44:25 <Eleuthria> a couple users pulling out 40-80 BTC is not unusual
3194 2013-03-12 03:44:31 <Eleuthria> Especially with the price the way it is
3195 2013-03-12 03:44:32 zbxg has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3196 2013-03-12 03:44:41 <petertodd> Eleuthria: Ah I see, just not users *making* that much that quickly?
3197 2013-03-12 03:44:46 tasqa has joined
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3208 2013-03-12 03:46:13 <Eleuthria> petertodd:  It was my mistake.  I'm pretty disappointed in the response though.
3209 2013-03-12 03:46:31 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: testing here, we don't getwork/gbt here before the checkpoint. So I'm guessing it must have been something special in your infrastructure that helped make it possible?
3210 2013-03-12 03:46:33 mrdavis has joined
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3212 2013-03-12 03:46:54 <Eleuthria> it was getmemorypool
3213 2013-03-12 03:46:55 personabc has joined
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3215 2013-03-12 03:46:59 <gmaxwell> (not blaming you, ... but if I can't undo the loss there at least we can learn from it.)
3216 2013-03-12 03:47:05 <Eleuthria> I'm not sure how it happened exactly
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3219 2013-03-12 03:47:13 <petertodd> Eleuthria: Yeah. :( Well, it'd be good if you write it up; we should have a collection of stories like that for lessons learned.
3220 2013-03-12 03:47:13 <gmaxwell> okay, I'll keep trying to reproduce.
3221 2013-03-12 03:47:15 the-bucket-shop has joined
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3223 2013-03-12 03:47:20 <Eleuthria> Unfortunately it's the old getwork poolserverj
3224 2013-03-12 03:47:26 kinakuta has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3225 2013-03-12 03:47:35 <Eleuthria> I don't know how it was providing work unless it was sending people old work it cached
3226 2013-03-12 03:47:38 CryptoJunky has quit (Quit: CryptoJunky)
3227 2013-03-12 03:47:41 <Eleuthria> but using the current bitcoind getdifficulty
3228 2013-03-12 03:47:45 <Eleuthria> when crediting the shares
3229 2013-03-12 03:47:48 affz has joined
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3232 2013-03-12 03:48:04 <Eleuthria> Like I said, in the past, I was able to hot swap bitcoind versions in there
3233 2013-03-12 03:48:05 CryptoJunky has joined
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3236 2013-03-12 03:48:22 <Eleuthria> I had forgotten that 0.8 automatically starts a reindex
3237 2013-03-12 03:48:40 sebicas has joined
3238 2013-03-12 03:48:48 <sipa> that is something we perhaps could have anticipated, and warned for
3239 2013-03-12 03:49:01 kinakuta has joined
3240 2013-03-12 03:49:07 <gmaxwell> Right, well. can't fix that. It was released noted and mandatory. Perhaps we could have made people start it with a -reindex=1 the first time.
3241 2013-03-12 03:49:23 <gmaxwell> (and otherwise just refuse to start)
3242 2013-03-12 03:49:23 MemoryDealers has joined
3243 2013-03-12 03:49:29 <Eleuthria> You can't plan for everything.  I accept it.
3244 2013-03-12 03:49:31 nomailing has left ()
3245 2013-03-12 03:49:33 <gmaxwell> I think we were too fixated on making it painless. :(
3246 2013-03-12 03:49:34 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ugh, that'd kill Windows users
3247 2013-03-12 03:49:40 IronWard has joined
3248 2013-03-12 03:49:48 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: bitcoind and qt behavior differs in a couple ways.
3249 2013-03-12 03:49:51 <Eleuthria> It's not like there's hundreds of pools out there where it would've crossed your mind as a possible discrepancy.
3250 2013-03-12 03:49:57 Rowit has joined
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3255 2013-03-12 03:50:54 <jrmithdobbs> it's kind of sad that the things breaking the network are what made it possible to fix the problem =/
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3257 2013-03-12 03:51:03 <jrmithdobbs> i mean that in a maybe that needs to be examined a little more closely
3258 2013-03-12 03:51:07 <jrmithdobbs> kind of way
3259 2013-03-12 03:51:09 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: My philosophy is that blame is irrelevant but we should try to learn from all mistakes and account for all failure modes.  True disasters almost always take multiple mistakes. E.g. reindex implicit + some way of mining on a reindexing mode + you making the procedural error + crediting users for diff 1 and allowing instant withdraw
3260 2013-03-12 03:51:09 nananananana has joined
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3265 2013-03-12 03:52:07 <jrmithdobbs> seriously, as an exercise, how would that be fixable with just p2pool if similar happened?
3266 2013-03-12 03:52:14 bitcoin-dev277 has quit (Client Quit)
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3269 2013-03-12 03:52:29 <gmaxwell> or 0.7 had another dumb implicit limit + which we didn't discover because our tests were inadequate to discover + and miners were encouraged to crank their block targets up when other than a few testnet blocks only a few max size blocks had ever been created.
3270 2013-03-12 03:52:32 <jrmithdobbs> it would involve manually fixing the chain on disk and nasty stuff
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3274 2013-03-12 03:53:15 <petertodd> jrmithdobbs: Well, with just p2pool you'd accept whoever got the majority and tell people to switch their clients. Maybe not as nice, but what can you do?
3275 2013-03-12 03:53:17 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: huh? you'd just downgrade and loadblock the chain.  (and in the future, downgrade and reindex,  or downgrade and blacklistblock if we merge that)
3276 2013-03-12 03:53:38 tophensen has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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3278 2013-03-12 03:53:47 <pizzacat> I am a bitcoin user. I blame the bank for challenges with dollars. I blame myself for challenges with bitcoin.
3279 2013-03-12 03:53:50 <lianj> slush: usually coinbase.com planned to wait until the reorg moves the chains by itself. considering to force it now :D
3280 2013-03-12 03:54:09 <Eleuthria> 225442, 12 blocks to go assuming 0.8 doesn't get anymore
3281 2013-03-12 03:54:28 <pizzacat> Eleuthria, nice :)
3282 2013-03-12 03:54:28 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: yes, so, instead convincing ~8-15 people (i'm being generous) to rollback, we'd have to convince thousands of individuals to rollback and/or apply a fix and given them manual instructions to fix the situation first ...
3283 2013-03-12 03:54:48 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: *potentially thousands
3284 2013-03-12 03:54:49 weeeee2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3285 2013-03-12 03:54:54 <Eleuthria> I said it earlier (in a non-polite/thought out way)
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3287 2013-03-12 03:55:10 <Eleuthria> If we were fully decentralized without pools, this could've been a much larger problem than it was today.
3288 2013-03-12 03:55:14 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: or go all the way, PPCOIN resolved problems by just not signing blocks on the bad chain when they had a forking attack. Easiest fix ever.
3289 2013-03-12 03:55:21 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3290 2013-03-12 03:55:25 <Luke-Jr> Eleuthria: or smaller
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3293 2013-03-12 03:56:10 <petertodd> jrmithdobbs: Keep in mind, there is also the totally different risk that somone could do an attack based on impersonating the devs and convincing others to load some crazy patch... Might just take hijacking IRC if your attackers were clever. Nothing has easy solutions. :(
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3299 2013-03-12 03:56:29 <gmaxwell> If we were fully decentralized the 0.8 side would very likely not have won just on length... or if it did it would only be because it was very widely deployed objectively and would be easier to just let it be.  There are advantages and disadvantages all ways.
3300 2013-03-12 03:56:39 <Luke-Jr> ^
3301 2013-03-12 03:56:43 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: I don't follow? I'm serious here, not trolling. I'm not advocating centralization, you know me better than that.
3302 2013-03-12 03:56:44 ligar has joined
3303 2013-03-12 03:56:45 <Eleuthria> I'm not saying it WOULD have been a larger problem.
3304 2013-03-12 03:56:45 <gmaxwell> someone was impersonating jgarzik earlier. :(
3305 2013-03-12 03:56:52 <Eleuthria> For most of bitcoin history, it would have been smaller
3306 2013-03-12 03:56:57 eco_ has joined
3307 2013-03-12 03:57:03 b4tt3r135 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
3308 2013-03-12 03:57:04 <Eleuthria> But imagine if ASICMINER+ Avalon users were all anonymous solo miners on 0.8
3309 2013-03-12 03:57:05 cyrozap has left ()
3310 2013-03-12 03:57:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Excellent example.
3311 2013-03-12 03:57:14 <Luke-Jr> jrmithdobbs: if <50% had 0.8, they'd just get orphaned over
3312 2013-03-12 03:57:17 <gmaxwell> It's somewhat unusual that so much hashpower upgrade to 0.8 so quickly.
3313 2013-03-12 03:57:32 <Luke-Jr> jrmithdobbs: if >50% had 0.8, it would effectively enforce a hardfork and the rest would have to upgrade
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3316 2013-03-12 03:57:36 <slush> gmaxwell: speedup
3317 2013-03-12 03:57:38 <sipa> well, in theory, bitcoin is a consensus of its community; it being decentralized doesn't mean there is necessarily no communication between miners and other members of the community
3318 2013-03-12 03:57:39 <Eleuthria> Right now there's a severe imbalance in hashpower, that would be fully anonymous/hard to contact.
3319 2013-03-12 03:57:40 <gmaxwell> You know we'd seriously discussed things like disabling mining in 0.8 or actively discouraging it for mining.
3320 2013-03-12 03:57:42 <slush> it's not a surprise for me
3321 2013-03-12 03:58:04 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: yes, so we'd have a split chain like earlier, i'm talking about the resolution not the problem
3322 2013-03-12 03:58:10 bitcoin-dev781 has joined
3323 2013-03-12 03:58:15 <jrmithdobbs> (well "earlier" = now, w/e)
3324 2013-03-12 03:58:23 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: indeed.. the imbalance is seriously problemat for a number of reasons, not really this one though— but it exacerbates it potentially.
3325 2013-03-12 03:58:24 mips has joined
3326 2013-03-12 03:58:27 <sipa> slush: must be, with p2pool even actively blocking out the "don't use for mining purposes!" warning...
3327 2013-03-12 03:58:39 <Luke-Jr> jrmithdobbs: the resolution would be slower myabe, but the potential damage much less
3328 2013-03-12 03:58:48 ARMA_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3329 2013-03-12 03:58:48 <slush> sipa: you know that I asked you if I can upgrade to 0.8 ;)
3330 2013-03-12 03:59:00 <slush> Sadly enough I updated two days ago
3331 2013-03-12 03:59:02 jzig has joined
3332 2013-03-12 03:59:12 <gmaxwell> FWIW, I got confirmation that we could get a mass email out to avalon customers if needed. But I don't think its needed now.
3333 2013-03-12 03:59:18 <sipa> slush: not blaming anyone
3334 2013-03-12 03:59:23 <slush> I don't blame you
3335 2013-03-12 03:59:26 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: did yours arrive yet?
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3338 2013-03-12 03:59:50 <Eleuthria> 225443, we're catching up!
3339 2013-03-12 03:59:50 <sipa> as gmaxwell said, blame is irrelevant, but we can learn from this
3340 2013-03-12 03:59:50 <slush> but it's not a surprise that release which is many times faster in block validation got so fast adoption
3341 2013-03-12 03:59:51 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: no, but they finally confirmed the correct shipping address.
3342 2013-03-12 04:00:05 eennaam has joined
3343 2013-03-12 04:00:27 <jrmithdobbs> slush: ya, it was a pretty major release and has heralded for a while now
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3345 2013-03-12 04:00:32 <slush> hm, 6 blocks orphaned on pool :(. And I feel that now it will take hours to mine first valid :/
3346 2013-03-12 04:00:33 <jrmithdobbs> s/has/has been/
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3348 2013-03-12 04:00:41 <gmaxwell> slush: Yes, indeed. And that urgent want for it was probably a factor in our decision to not bother telling people not to use it for that. (we knew they wouldn't listen[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[C)
3349 2013-03-12 04:00:48 foo1 has joined
3350 2013-03-12 04:01:18 <jrmithdobbs> made the upgrade process too easy, should have made everyone resync ;p
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3352 2013-03-12 04:01:27 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Can you get a blocktester test in that tries to get a extreme maximum number of distinct inputs+outputs?  Like 4000 in and 5000 out?
3353 2013-03-12 04:01:31 tasqa has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3354 2013-03-12 04:01:42 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: and bring up pop-ups with flickering casino ads
3355 2013-03-12 04:01:51 <gmaxwell> We don't have those already?
3356 2013-03-12 04:01:53 <lianj> looks like the .8 chain is still faster then the .7 one, no? is there a tiny chance that the rollback to .7 will not work out?
3357 2013-03-12 04:01:59 <jrmithdobbs> seriously, get on that
3358 2013-03-12 04:02:00 <gmaxwell> Thats why I'm not getting advertising referral income!
3359 2013-03-12 04:02:15 <Eleuthria> 0.7 chain is faster
3360 2013-03-12 04:02:18 zbxg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3361 2013-03-12 04:02:19 <Eleuthria> We just had a few hiccups
3362 2013-03-12 04:02:30 <sipa> 443 now
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3364 2013-03-12 04:02:43 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Testnet doesn't have much in the way of large blocks, the only ones >500KB are the ones I made, and they're just single transactions. :(
3365 2013-03-12 04:02:46 <DBordello> What 0.8 at?
3366 2013-03-12 04:02:56 <Eleuthria> 225453
3367 2013-03-12 04:03:00 Yamashi has left ()
3368 2013-03-12 04:03:04 <sipa> oooh, only 10
3369 2013-03-12 04:03:14 <Eleuthria> 11 to force a re-org
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3371 2013-03-12 04:03:23 <sipa> yeah, and probably 16 to be safe
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3373 2013-03-12 04:03:45 <pizzacat> sipa, agree
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3379 2013-03-12 04:04:16 <gmaxwell> petertodd: There are some with >2000 TXN and such, but they don't have large numbers of txins because I was spending 50 tnbtc blocks.
3380 2013-03-12 04:04:18 <DBordello> Anybody serious still mining on 0.8?
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3385 2013-03-12 04:04:37 <sipa> slush, but he blocked the offending block
3386 2013-03-12 04:04:38 Rowit has joined
3387 2013-03-12 04:04:41 <DBordello> 444
3388 2013-03-12 04:05:02 <slush> DBordello: I'm mining on 0.8, but it looks fine so far
3389 2013-03-12 04:05:08 coolsa_ has joined
3390 2013-03-12 04:05:16 <DBordello> ah, okay
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3400 2013-03-12 04:06:36 <DBordello> slush, any worries of mining or another nasty block coming along?
3401 2013-03-12 04:06:55 <slush> no
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3404 2013-03-12 04:07:17 <Eleuthria> 225444
3405 2013-03-12 04:07:26 <Eleuthria> BTC Guild on a roll
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3422 2013-03-12 04:10:28 <evoorhees> 445
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3430 2013-03-12 04:12:16 <Eleuthria> It's a really good thing Luke got my attention
3431 2013-03-12 04:12:21 criptoe has joined
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3433 2013-03-12 04:12:53 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: did you get my (unfortauntely late) email?  (e.g. is our list of crit infrastructure addresses working?)
3434 2013-03-12 04:13:14 <Eleuthria> I was aleady downgrading before that was sent
3435 2013-03-12 04:13:16 nananananana has quit (Quit: Bye)
3436 2013-03-12 04:13:33 <Eleuthria> Remember, I'm the one who pointed out "BTC Guild can single handedly pick which chain wins based on current speed estimates."
3437 2013-03-12 04:13:56 Rowit has joined
3438 2013-03-12 04:14:24 <Eleuthria> I started prep'ing 0.7 as we discussed what to do
3439 2013-03-12 04:14:24 <sipa> you evil 51% attacker!!!
3440 2013-03-12 04:14:24 <gmaxwell> Great, good you got it.  I was at dinner when this happened, and because I moved a month ago all my old awesome monitoring stuff that would have called me when 0.7 rejected the chain wasn't up anymore.
3441 2013-03-12 04:14:24 <Eleuthria> naw
3442 2013-03-12 04:14:24 epylar has joined
3443 2013-03-12 04:14:24 <Eleuthria> I'm the elusive 32% attacker
3444 2013-03-12 04:14:27 <Eleuthria> When a hard fork hits, I can pick which one lives and which one dies ;p
3445 2013-03-12 04:14:41 utaal has quit (Quit: utaal)
3446 2013-03-12 04:14:43 <lianj> 32% good guy
3447 2013-03-12 04:14:46 jomplox has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3448 2013-03-12 04:14:48 <sipa> i vaguely remember saying something about sleep
3449 2013-03-12 04:14:54 <pizzacat> so.. rough estimate, let's say the 0.7 chain miners are now 75% of the net, 1 block every 15 minutes, about 13 blocks needed at that growth, 15*13=195 minutes, about 3:15 hours.. And this is based on no miners switching to 0.7 in the upcoming hours (some will). I say at most, 3 hours max?
3450 2013-03-12 04:15:07 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: thats a misunderstanding of a hardfork. :P  In a hardfork it doesn't matter how much hash power you have, unless you mean by attacking the one you want to lose and adding DOS blocks it. :P
3451 2013-03-12 04:15:25 emeitner has left ()
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3453 2013-03-12 04:15:29 <Eleuthria> gmaxwell:  Well, yes, each hard fork would live.
3454 2013-03-12 04:15:34 gdoteoff has joined
3455 2013-03-12 04:15:38 <Eleuthria> But I could pick which one has the most backing ;P
3456 2013-03-12 04:15:45 sddfddf has joined
3457 2013-03-12 04:16:06 <gmaxwell> pizzacat: not max, variance is a bitch.. thats probable something like <16 90%.
3458 2013-03-12 04:16:20 <gmaxwell> probably*
3459 2013-03-12 04:16:20 <pizzacat> gmaxwell, totally agree
3460 2013-03-12 04:16:24 PinkPanther has joined
3461 2013-03-12 04:16:31 FredEE_ has joined
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3465 2013-03-12 04:16:53 barmstrong_ has joined
3466 2013-03-12 04:17:00 <Eleuthria> 32% attacker...I feel like I have the worst superpower ever.
3467 2013-03-12 04:17:46 vbuterin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3468 2013-03-12 04:17:50 <jgarzik> heh
3469 2013-03-12 04:18:02 <pizzacat> Eleuthria, i chip in for a heroic "32% man" tshirt ;)
3470 2013-03-12 04:18:11 bitcoinQQQ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3471 2013-03-12 04:18:16 eric___ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3472 2013-03-12 04:18:21 cads has joined
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3474 2013-03-12 04:18:36 MemoryDealers has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3475 2013-03-12 04:18:36 bbc_guy has joined
3476 2013-03-12 04:18:46 <Graet> lol Eleuthria we better stop chatting before someone thinks we are teaming up :P
3477 2013-03-12 04:18:51 Rowit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3478 2013-03-12 04:19:06 <Eleuthria> When our powers combined, we are Captain Doublespend!
3479 2013-03-12 04:19:06 doost has joined
3480 2013-03-12 04:19:12 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3481 2013-03-12 04:19:25 <sipa> judging by the discussion, maybe +m isn't needed anymore :)
3482 2013-03-12 04:19:27 FredEE has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3483 2013-03-12 04:19:28 FredEE_ is now known as FredEE
3484 2013-03-12 04:19:28 <Eleuthria> Actually, I think we'd need a third person for that.
3485 2013-03-12 04:19:37 BlackPrapor has joined
3486 2013-03-12 04:19:41 <Eleuthria> sipa:  Yeah, it's pretty calm now
3487 2013-03-12 04:19:44 <Eleuthria> Crisis mode over.
3488 2013-03-12 04:19:44 * sipa zZzZ
3489 2013-03-12 04:19:44 <jgarzik>  /mode -m
3490 2013-03-12 04:19:46 <jgarzik> is correct?
3491 2013-03-12 04:19:46 Guest51255 has joined
3492 2013-03-12 04:19:46 barmstrong has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3493 2013-03-12 04:19:46 barmstrong_ is now known as barmstrong
3494 2013-03-12 04:19:47 <Aaron_TangCryp> ;;ticker --last
3495 2013-03-12 04:19:47 i2pRelay has joined
3496 2013-03-12 04:19:48 <gribble> 44.74800
3497 2013-03-12 04:19:50 <Eleuthria> Now we're just waiting for resolution.
3498 2013-03-12 04:19:51 <nanotube> jgarzik: yes
3499 2013-03-12 04:19:51 <randy-waterhouse> so this new berkeley DB 'rule' might have to live on in the blockchain for some time it seems?
3500 2013-03-12 04:19:53 xiangfu has joined
3501 2013-03-12 04:19:59 <petertodd> randy-waterhouse: Yes
3502 2013-03-12 04:20:02 <Graet> 32% + 19% (last i looked before issues) but i'll be quiet now :P
3503 2013-03-12 04:20:03 Aahz has joined
3504 2013-03-12 04:20:07 <jgarzik> Aaron_TangCryp: /msg gribble ...
3505 2013-03-12 04:20:26 bitcoin-dev902 has joined
3506 2013-03-12 04:20:29 Guest30702 is now known as PP
3507 2013-03-12 04:20:34 <pizzacat> to all the dev's, contributers and supporters: Way to go!
3508 2013-03-12 04:20:37 <doublec> hopefully the bdb issue doesn't vary amongst the bdb versions being used
3509 2013-03-12 04:20:40 <gmaxwell> randy-waterhouse: technically an old rule. :P
3510 2013-03-12 04:20:43 <randy-waterhouse> BDB is making up bitcoin protocol as it goes along ... lol
3511 2013-03-12 04:20:45 <Sydna> Eleuthria: at what point will you change the displays to be in TH/s?
3512 2013-03-12 04:20:46 <Aaron_TangCryp> jgarzik, I clicked the wrong tab  appologize i did that twice now today
3513 2013-03-12 04:20:47 rayn has joined
3514 2013-03-12 04:20:58 PP is now known as Guest14889
3515 2013-03-12 04:20:59 <Seventoes> i'd like to congradulate the devs on handling this so well too! nicely done guys
3516 2013-03-12 04:21:00 <Eleuthria> Sydna:  I like seeing GH/s
3517 2013-03-12 04:21:07 <gmaxwell> randy-waterhouse: thats part of why when we switch to leveldb we bundled it instead of linking it.
3518 2013-03-12 04:21:07 <Eleuthria> 11,800 GH/s looks way more impressive than 11.8 TH/s
3519 2013-03-12 04:21:09 <num1> Yes. Thanks for your hard work! I'm especially impressed by MagicalTux, who disabled mtgox's imports literally 5 minutes after the problem was discovered
3520 2013-03-12 04:21:11 <samurai1200> question!!! what would have happened if the botnet threat were worse than we thought, and 0.8 outpaced 0.7?
3521 2013-03-12 04:21:26 <drakness> that was riveting to watch.  Good job devs.
3522 2013-03-12 04:21:30 <Sydna> Eleuthria: for that matter, 11,800,000MH/s looks even more impressive
3523 2013-03-12 04:21:35 CryptoJunky has quit (Quit: CryptoJunky)
3524 2013-03-12 04:21:37 <Eleuthria> naw
3525 2013-03-12 04:21:40 <Guest14889> Just wanted to chip in on the thanks :) great work :)
3526 2013-03-12 04:21:44 <petertodd> samurai1200: The advice would be for clients and miners to upgrade to 0.8
3527 2013-03-12 04:21:51 <Eleuthria> When you get into millions, people lose grasp of how big the number really is :P
3528 2013-03-12 04:21:53 <Sydna> Eleuthria: 11,800,000,000,000,000H/s ;)
3529 2013-03-12 04:21:59 dtrevor_ has joined
3530 2013-03-12 04:21:59 <daughterly> nothing like little crisis to bring everyone together eh? good work guys!
3531 2013-03-12 04:22:03 <keystroke> nanohash?
3532 2013-03-12 04:22:04 <samurai1200> would we have been forced to join 0.8? would that mean some transactions part of that large block would be lost?
3533 2013-03-12 04:22:07 <PRab> Dev team: +1 very professional handling of this. Keep up the good work.
3534 2013-03-12 04:22:19 <k9quaint> Eleuthria: how is it that your webpage does not say "this pool goes to 11" somewhere?
3535 2013-03-12 04:22:20 <gmaxwell> samurai1200: would have made that one the winner if we didn't think we could have gone the other way, and checkpointed it so that it had to win in those.. but that would have been far more risky.
3536 2013-03-12 04:22:21 <Xenon481> Samurai1200: Nothing would have been lost.
3537 2013-03-12 04:22:23 <petertodd> samurai1200: Transactions that are on one chain get remined in the other.
3538 2013-03-12 04:22:26 <Eleuthria> samurai1200:  Since this was a hard fork, you couldn't be forced to move on to 0.8
3539 2013-03-12 04:22:40 <samurai1200> ah ah i see now
3540 2013-03-12 04:22:40 <Eleuthria> No matter how much power was on 0.8
3541 2013-03-12 04:22:43 <gmaxwell> Also would have issued a patched 0.7 and 0.6, and 0.5, and 0.4  and maybe even 0.3 (or at least luke would have done the last couple)
3542 2013-03-12 04:22:46 <BlackPrapor> Hello guys, is there a link which explains how block size limit could be avoided in the future release?
3543 2013-03-12 04:22:56 <samurai1200> 're-mined'
3544 2013-03-12 04:23:04 <MK`> Thanks all you guys for your work.
3545 2013-03-12 04:23:05 rowit_ has joined
3546 2013-03-12 04:23:12 Migratory has quit (Quit: Bye)
3547 2013-03-12 04:23:12 <petertodd> BlackPrapor: No, and it's the wrong time to be talking about that.
3548 2013-03-12 04:23:16 drakness has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3549 2013-03-12 04:23:20 <samurai1200> yeah you guys are fuckin bad ass! that was amazing to see the power rangers assemble in here.
3550 2013-03-12 04:23:25 enkidu99 has quit ()
3551 2013-03-12 04:23:27 <Xenon481> BlackPrapor: It is currently not known what the exact root cause is.
3552 2013-03-12 04:23:31 <Eleuthria> We caught the hardfork before any of the forked blocks were spendable, so for the most part, network transactions should not be too screwed up
3553 2013-03-12 04:23:34 <DrGuns4Hands> Glad you could all work together to get this resolved quickly ^^
3554 2013-03-12 04:23:35 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: if you're asking about the thing that happened tonight, that wasn't really a "block size limit"
3555 2013-03-12 04:23:37 <petertodd> samurai1200: Yes. Transactions are included in blocks right? So if a block gets orphaned, those transactions go back into the mempool to be mined again.
3556 2013-03-12 04:23:50 <BlackPrapor> gmaxwell: what was it then?
3557 2013-03-12 04:23:50 f0rkd has quit ()
3558 2013-03-12 04:23:51 <rayn> thanks guys. well done.
3559 2013-03-12 04:23:53 Squidicuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3560 2013-03-12 04:23:54 TBZ1-SanDiego has left ()
3561 2013-03-12 04:23:59 <epylar> So could there have been double spends for a while?
3562 2013-03-12 04:24:00 <BlackPrapor> sorry I'm a bit behind
3563 2013-03-12 04:24:01 clav8 has quit ()
3564 2013-03-12 04:24:04 <petertodd> BlackPrapor: A bug, not a limit.
3565 2013-03-12 04:24:16 * samurai1200 applauds the dev team
3566 2013-03-12 04:24:16 <jrmithdobbs> BlackPrapor: an unknown implied limit from the reference implemantations original db choice
3567 2013-03-12 04:24:18 Squidicuz has joined
3568 2013-03-12 04:24:24 <Eleuthria> epylar:  There was a limited double spend window
3569 2013-03-12 04:24:30 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: we don't have it fully measured and determined yet, but its most likely the number of transaction outputs being spent plus the number of outputs being created.
3570 2013-03-12 04:24:51 <Eleuthria> It would have been easier to pull off (less hash power needed)
3571 2013-03-12 04:25:03 <gdoteoff> Any double spend analysis?
3572 2013-03-12 04:25:06 sddfddf has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3573 2013-03-12 04:25:08 <petertodd> Eleuthria: A hard one though keep in mind, the network itself isn't forked, so both sides use the same mempool and won't let double-spends propagate.
3574 2013-03-12 04:25:09 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: once we fully understand the limit 0.7 is implicitly creating due to bdb behavior we'll add a rule in a bitcoin 0.8. My expectation is that the limit will not be a major imposition.
3575 2013-03-12 04:25:13 <DrGuns4Hands> Power rangers psh lets keep it old school with Voltron
3576 2013-03-12 04:25:17 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
3577 2013-03-12 04:25:17 <sipa> petertodd: well the bug was the presence of a default limit
3578 2013-03-12 04:25:28 zoinky has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3579 2013-03-12 04:25:32 <samurai1200> haha
3580 2013-03-12 04:25:34 showard has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3581 2013-03-12 04:25:36 <petertodd> sipa: Yeah true, unlimt your limit for staying awake. :P
3582 2013-03-12 04:25:37 <epylar> Well, obviously no lasting double spends, but theoretically you could convince more than one person that you had paid them with the same money and received physical goods, say.
3583 2013-03-12 04:25:39 <Eleuthria> ptertodd:  The network would have been forked IF this continued long enough for blocks mined on one fork for a block to become spendable
3584 2013-03-12 04:25:45 <gmaxwell> In this case there wasn't much double spend risk because there were blocks on the 0.7 chain right away. And those blocks were already duplicating transactions from the 0.8 chain.
3585 2013-03-12 04:25:50 <B0g4r7> I recommend that copious unit tests be built around the affected section of code.
3586 2013-03-12 04:25:53 <Eleuthria> Because those generations would not exist on the other side
3587 2013-03-12 04:26:03 <samurai1200> Watching the IRC chat in here after +m was like watching the scene in Apollo13 where they were figuring out the filter problem
3588 2013-03-12 04:26:07 <BlackPrapor> gmaxwell: so in the future, there its unlikely we would have a problem of too large blocks?
3589 2013-03-12 04:26:12 gritcoin has joined
3590 2013-03-12 04:26:13 <petertodd> Eleuthria: Right, but only the affected transactions, other ones are still ok. Much more of a problem for sure though.
3591 2013-03-12 04:26:21 <num1> B0g4r7, after everything they just went though, I think you're preaching to the choir
3592 2013-03-12 04:26:43 <petertodd> B0g4r7: Unit testing for Bitcoin is limited by man power right now. Testing is hard frankly.
3593 2013-03-12 04:26:50 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: Correct.
3594 2013-03-12 04:26:52 <nanotube> hehe maybe -m was a little premature >____>
3595 2013-03-12 04:26:58 <jzig> samurai1200: brilliant analogy
3596 2013-03-12 04:27:00 <B0g4r7> Sure is.
3597 2013-03-12 04:27:05 <epylar> I'm sure anyone who wants to add tests could submit patches....
3598 2013-03-12 04:27:12 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3599 2013-03-12 04:27:13 <gmaxwell> This isn't something a unit test would solve so much, this is the sort of thing you need full systems tests for...
3600 2013-03-12 04:27:14 thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3601 2013-03-12 04:27:14 Joric has joined
3602 2013-03-12 04:27:17 <etotheipi_> are we out of the woods yet?
3603 2013-03-12 04:27:17 <gdoteoff> Do people unit test max db entries? Seems painful
3604 2013-03-12 04:27:20 <EvilPete> B0g4r7: the problem wasn't a bug in 0.8 as such, but rather a bug in 0.7 and earlier that nobody knew existed, and hence 0.8 wasn't bug-compatible with.
3605 2013-03-12 04:27:21 <samurai1200> =]
3606 2013-03-12 04:27:22 <gmaxwell> Which we have, but they didn't hit this case.
3607 2013-03-12 04:27:23 lophie has joined
3608 2013-03-12 04:27:24 <COGSMITH> i enjoyed the +m it made following the discussion much easier
3609 2013-03-12 04:27:36 <keystroke> samurai1200 i was thinking something similar
3610 2013-03-12 04:27:37 <petertodd> etotheipi_: Lets wait until the chain is overtaken...
3611 2013-03-12 04:27:42 <gmaxwell> gdoteoff: we have tests that make maximum sized blocks... but not one that makes large numbers of both inputs and outputs.
3612 2013-03-12 04:27:47 <B0g4r7> Tho unit tests may have uncovered the 0.7 bug...
3613 2013-03-12 04:27:50 <lnxmad> Total newbie here and it seems like I chose the perfect time to stumble upon BitCoin
3614 2013-03-12 04:27:50 <etotheipi_> petertodd: that's what I was asking... hasn't happened yet?
3615 2013-03-12 04:27:51 i2pRelay has joined
3616 2013-03-12 04:27:57 Guest14889 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3617 2013-03-12 04:27:58 <petertodd> etotheipi_: Not that I can see.
3618 2013-03-12 04:28:12 <B0g4r7> Maybe not tho, if it's as complex as gmaxwell implies.
3619 2013-03-12 04:28:13 <samurai1200> it boggles my mind to see so many folks that know the btc protocol inside out come together like that
3620 2013-03-12 04:28:20 <Eleuthria> lnxmad:  It was a good time to stumble in.  You got to see how well the network reacts to a crisis
3621 2013-03-12 04:28:22 <PRab> Also to do, rethink default error message to something other than please upgrade. In this situation, upgrading ended up not being the ideal path.
3622 2013-03-12 04:28:22 <da2ce7> B0g4r7: yes, but it hard to search for something, when you don't know what you are looking for
3623 2013-03-12 04:28:31 Sep_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3624 2013-03-12 04:28:36 <samurai1200> i just dont have a 100% grasp on the protocol so its like magic to me
3625 2013-03-12 04:28:38 <etotheipi_> sipa:  can you please update that top post of the alert thread?  it's driving me crazy that there's no mention that people are not losing coins
3626 2013-03-12 04:28:40 <B0g4r7> da2ce7: oh, surely.  Unknown unknowns and all.
3627 2013-03-12 04:28:40 <epylar> the alert system was a good idea.
3628 2013-03-12 04:28:42 <petertodd> etotheipi_: We're 10 blocks away from overtaking.
3629 2013-03-12 04:28:47 <Eleuthria> Problem discovered, resolution decided, and work done to repair the problem all done within hours
3630 2013-03-12 04:28:58 <lnxmad> Eleuthria, Yes, although I'm not even sure what happened :p
3631 2013-03-12 04:29:05 <sipa> etotheipi_: i'll just copy your post into the top post, ok?
3632 2013-03-12 04:29:11 <etotheipi_> sipa: sure
3633 2013-03-12 04:29:18 <sipa> can you link it?
3634 2013-03-12 04:29:25 notori0us has joined
3635 2013-03-12 04:29:26 <theymos> The second bug that was handled pretty much perfectly. Bitcoin has a great record!
3636 2013-03-12 04:29:31 <etotheipi_> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152030.msg1613724#msg1613724
3637 2013-03-12 04:29:46 notori0us has left ("WeeChat 0.4.0")
3638 2013-03-12 04:29:47 <B0g4r7> Well, will be handled when things catch up.
3639 2013-03-12 04:29:48 Batteryfire has joined
3640 2013-03-12 04:30:08 <Xenon481> etotheipi: People are losing coins though. The people that are mining blocks using the 0.8 fork of the block chain will have their 25BTC minting transaction reversed.
3641 2013-03-12 04:30:13 <gmaxwell> well, I think all of us had already thought about these kinds of situations before, so that helps. This wasn't an entirely unexpected class of problem.
3642 2013-03-12 04:30:38 rayn has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3643 2013-03-12 04:30:40 <k9quaint> how long has 0.8 been out?
3644 2013-03-12 04:30:42 <epylar> individual people with the ability to mine blocks is pretty rare.
3645 2013-03-12 04:30:42 <petertodd> etotheipi_: We should add a "getcurrentalert" RPC call so stuff like BitcoinArmory can display alerts too...
3646 2013-03-12 04:30:43 <samurai1200> Xenon481: technically those blocks were mined unfairly compared to the difficulty though
3647 2013-03-12 04:30:46 <etotheipi_> Xenon481: anyone with enough mining power to be so affected already understands that
3648 2013-03-12 04:30:53 <epylar> most people are part of a pool, and i don't think those people are losing anything
3649 2013-03-12 04:30:55 <etotheipi_> this is for everyone else
3650 2013-03-12 04:30:58 <gdoteoff> Theymos, what was the first?
3651 2013-03-12 04:31:07 MemoryDealers has joined
3652 2013-03-12 04:31:18 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: a bit under a month.
3653 2013-03-12 04:31:21 <theymos> gdoteoff: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures#CVE-2010-5139
3654 2013-03-12 04:31:24 <etotheipi_> petertodd: it's been on my todo list to make sure that Armory start showing alerts
3655 2013-03-12 04:31:27 <gmaxwell> 02/19 was the release.
3656 2013-03-12 04:31:37 <etotheipi_> I guess I'll bump it up on my priority list
3657 2013-03-12 04:31:37 <EvilPete> the offending block was what? 974K out of the theoretical 1024K limit, right? and that tripped up the 0.7 code?
3658 2013-03-12 04:31:47 <bVector> I wanna watch the old chain catch up, like a dograce
3659 2013-03-12 04:31:51 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: it wasn't the sheer size.
3660 2013-03-12 04:31:52 <bVector> can anyone make that happen?
3661 2013-03-12 04:32:00 <petertodd> EvilPete: 1000K limit, and it wasn't size that caused the limit.
3662 2013-03-12 04:32:06 undecim has joined
3663 2013-03-12 04:32:08 <petertodd> EvilPete: There are 1000K blocks on testnet.
3664 2013-03-12 04:32:09 <etotheipi_> hey PR thinking here:  can we have a canned response ready for the store that's sure to hit slashdot
3665 2013-03-12 04:32:14 <theymos> I was the one who alerted Satoshi of the last bug. :)
3666 2013-03-12 04:32:15 <etotheipi_> *story
3667 2013-03-12 04:32:19 <gdoteoff> Ha.  TIL
3668 2013-03-12 04:32:20 <petertodd> etotheipi_: Good idea.
3669 2013-03-12 04:32:21 <anachron> Yeah, do be thinking about the PR angle.
3670 2013-03-12 04:32:34 <Xenon481> Slush mentioned that he was going to go back and make sure that his mined blocks DB correctly reflected only mining on the 0.7 fork, so all those miners while slush was still on 0.8.0 will not be paid (not saying they should) for their shares submitted during that timeframe.
3671 2013-03-12 04:32:35 <BlackPrapor> gmaxwell: aren't you guys suppose to test it on test net first?
3672 2013-03-12 04:32:41 <anachron> Probably 80% of the BTC market, or more, hasn't even heard of this situation yet.
3673 2013-03-12 04:32:42 <TradeFortress> BlackPrapor, discussed over and over again
3674 2013-03-12 04:32:42 sawtooth has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
3675 2013-03-12 04:32:43 <rowit_> Definitely. This should really be a win for BTC.
3676 2013-03-12 04:32:47 <anachron> It will have an impact tomorrow methinks.
3677 2013-03-12 04:32:48 <etotheipi_> get a few people to watch slashdot, and when the article shows up, have a few people post comments quickly that dispell the FUD
3678 2013-03-12 04:32:52 <petertodd> etotheipi_: It'd be good to stress that ultimately Bitcoin does have people working on it I think, and that the community can get together and solve problems.
3679 2013-03-12 04:32:54 <xfaust> To those involved in discussion and solution of the problem - thank you.
3680 2013-03-12 04:32:54 <BlackPrapor> TradeFortress: just saying
3681 2013-03-12 04:32:56 <warren> doublec: still around?
3682 2013-03-12 04:32:57 <epylar> I still believe that somehow, Satoshi will return to save the world.
3683 2013-03-12 04:32:57 <midnightmagic> BlackPrapor: Not helpful.
3684 2013-03-12 04:33:05 <rowit_> a serious error that was corrected in several hours, after midnight?
3685 2013-03-12 04:33:08 <rowit_> Huge!
3686 2013-03-12 04:33:08 <anachron> Ideally, watch a slew of major news sources
3687 2013-03-12 04:33:08 <sipa> BlackPrapor: 0.8 was tested for months on testnet and in other ways
3688 2013-03-12 04:33:10 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: sure, it was extensively tested, in ways far beyond the testnet too. We found and fixed several consensus breaking bugs that were introduced in 0.8, but not this one.
3689 2013-03-12 04:33:14 <B0g4r7> ArtForz came out of hiding during it.
3690 2013-03-12 04:33:21 <anachron> slashdot, arstechnica, anantech, dailytech, etc.
3691 2013-03-12 04:33:27 <Vinnie_win> Breaking News: "Devs Burn Candle: Bitcoin Scandal Handled"
3692 2013-03-12 04:33:38 <doublec> warren: here
3693 2013-03-12 04:33:40 fathead has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3694 2013-03-12 04:33:49 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: And "you guys" ... I don't appear to have recieved a check from you. What you should say is "we", you can be a part of this too if you choose to,—
3695 2013-03-12 04:33:53 <epylar> this issue is #1 on hacker news right now.
3696 2013-03-12 04:33:55 <anachron> Vinnie_win either works for The Register UK writing headlines, or should apply soon.
3697 2013-03-12 04:34:03 <MK`> I imagine blocks on testnet would be solved too quickly for this issue to have arisen there.
3698 2013-03-12 04:34:07 <amiller> is anyone measuring mining power accurately, like geomapping it or something
3699 2013-03-12 04:34:16 <BlackPrapor> gmaxwell: sorry, I didn't mean to be rude, just nervious I guess
3700 2013-03-12 04:34:18 <oldbushie> there's a geomap somewher eyeah
3701 2013-03-12 04:34:22 MDrollette has left ()
3702 2013-03-12 04:34:29 fathead has joined
3703 2013-03-12 04:34:30 <Xenon481> I don't think we are out of the woods yet. Once the 0.7 chain takes over and MtGox reopens BTC deposits, there is the potential for a mass selloff.
3704 2013-03-12 04:34:31 <petertodd> arstechnica: http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/03/major-glitch-in-bitcoin-network-sparks-sell-off-price-temporarily-falls-23/#.UT6tu37kmRg.reddit
3705 2013-03-12 04:34:39 rynmln has joined
3706 2013-03-12 04:34:43 <BlackPrapor> gmaxwell: I'm not part of test group, that's why I'm saying "you"
3707 2013-03-12 04:34:51 <xiangfu> the 0.8 start the 51% attack. :-)
3708 2013-03-12 04:34:56 t4nk456 has joined
3709 2013-03-12 04:35:01 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: I am willing to pay you small sums in order to apportion blame in cases like these ;)
3710 2013-03-12 04:35:01 chylee has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3711 2013-03-12 04:35:04 <B0g4r7> Xenon481, market value is not a network problem.
3712 2013-03-12 04:35:15 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3713 2013-03-12 04:35:25 uglux_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3714 2013-03-12 04:35:31 <samurai1200> yeah. screw a selloff.
3715 2013-03-12 04:35:31 <TradeFortress> k9quaint, then donate to the bitcoin foundation
3716 2013-03-12 04:35:32 <jrmithdobbs> BlackPrapor: basically this was such an odd problem caused by an *unknown* limitation, that was outside of the scope of the test cases because it involved coming close to a theorhetical limit
3717 2013-03-12 04:35:33 <e11ty> I've lurked enough for the night.  Thank you all who were so expedient in resolving the issue at hand (even if temporarily).  The whole BTC community continues to be in your debt.
3718 2013-03-12 04:35:33 <oldbushie> amiller: http://blockchain.info/nodes-globe not sure if that's what you mean
3719 2013-03-12 04:35:37 <jrmithdobbs> BlackPrapor: aka, perfect storm
3720 2013-03-12 04:35:39 <gdoteoff> I wasn't here for the +m chat, but it might be worth pastebinning to link to when the storm hits.
3721 2013-03-12 04:35:44 <mrb_> 21:33 < B0g4r7> ArtForz came out of hiding during it.
3722 2013-03-12 04:35:46 <marvborg> I appreciated the opportunity to see the "emergency broadcast system" with Gavin
3723 2013-03-12 04:35:47 <mrb_> what is "it"?
3724 2013-03-12 04:35:51 e11ty has left ()
3725 2013-03-12 04:35:55 <da2ce7> you can see the blocks catch-up here: http://blockchain.info/blocks
3726 2013-03-12 04:35:55 i2pRelay has joined
3727 2013-03-12 04:35:56 rynmln has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3728 2013-03-12 04:35:58 <TradeFortress> Emergency broadcast system? Screenshots?
3729 2013-03-12 04:35:59 <Xenon481> B0g4r7: My point is that Network Confidence is a market problem.
3730 2013-03-12 04:36:07 <B0g4r7> mrb, the fork that we're still inside of.
3731 2013-03-12 04:36:15 <TradeFortress> I don't run bitcoind but I'd like to see what it looks like
3732 2013-03-12 04:36:17 <marvborg> with Gavin's broadcast message and how it was handled by various clients. Good to know
3733 2013-03-12 04:36:26 <mrb_> B0g4r7: where is ArtForz?
3734 2013-03-12 04:36:31 <lianj> etotheipi_: "If you are a "regular user" (not a miner), the best thing is to do nothing and wait a couple hours. " and .8 users consider updating their .8 client once a patch is released in some days
3735 2013-03-12 04:36:40 <B0g4r7> mrb, I saw him posting in btc-e shoutbox, of all places.
3736 2013-03-12 04:36:44 <mrb_> haha
3737 2013-03-12 04:36:45 pwns has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3738 2013-03-12 04:36:46 <midnightmagic> mrb_: He's stepped back, bound by NDA and not interested in risking breaking it. He said he got sick of IRC.
3739 2013-03-12 04:36:48 <Xenon481> And that right now, we don't have a true view of the market view of the issue due to the essentially freezing of market transactions that weren't already being held in the exchanges.
3740 2013-03-12 04:36:49 <Eleuthria> ArtForz is chained up in my spare bedroom.
3741 2013-03-12 04:36:50 eco_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3742 2013-03-12 04:36:52 FredEE_ has joined
3743 2013-03-12 04:36:54 <Eleuthria> I let him out to code things for me once in a while.
3744 2013-03-12 04:36:56 casascius has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3745 2013-03-12 04:36:56 <B0g4r7> Thinking back tho, it could well have been an imposter.
3746 2013-03-12 04:37:08 <Eleuthria> As long as I keep tossing him circuit boards and hard drives, he seems to be happy.
3747 2013-03-12 04:37:08 <B0g4r7> He didn't speak like a troll tho.
3748 2013-03-12 04:37:10 <mrb_> I know he stepped back from the community, but never knew why...
3749 2013-03-12 04:37:26 CrazyEarner has quit (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com ))
3750 2013-03-12 04:37:34 <midnightmagic> mrb_: He sold some of his designs, and used the NDA he signed as an opportunity to not spend so much time in here.
3751 2013-03-12 04:37:40 <lophie> Guys I sincerly apologize of badmouthing some of you on the forums. You saved teh day one more time. I guess I was like everyone else. Just nervious.
3752 2013-03-12 04:37:42 gesell has left ()
3753 2013-03-12 04:37:43 enarjord has joined
3754 2013-03-12 04:37:45 <midnightmagic> mrb_: Or so he told me..
3755 2013-03-12 04:37:53 <Vinnie_win> I was never worried in the slightest
3756 2013-03-12 04:37:53 <theymos> mrb_: He wanted to spend more time on other things.
3757 2013-03-12 04:37:54 <mrb_> interesting
3758 2013-03-12 04:37:58 <cjd> It's worth noting that this team is the reason why a lot of the tricks which were so devistating on alt chains would fail against bitcoin, good work guys.
3759 2013-03-12 04:38:05 <gmaxwell> Xenon481: trading on the market was not frozen.
3760 2013-03-12 04:38:07 <midnightmagic> mrb_: Did you ever get your hands on that preimage 2x mining hashrate algo?
3761 2013-03-12 04:38:10 <mokahless> http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/03/major-glitch-in-bitcoin-network-sparks-sell-off-price-temporarily-falls-23/
3762 2013-03-12 04:38:20 <gmaxwell> cjd: lets not be too proud.
3763 2013-03-12 04:38:34 <Xenon481> gmaxwell: BTC transfers to MtGox were/are frozen.
3764 2013-03-12 04:38:35 <epylar> i assume since bitcoins are so fast to transfer, people who want to sell usually don't keep them in mtgox until very close to when they want to sell
3765 2013-03-12 04:38:41 <mrb_> I knew he was burning himself out spending 24/7 on his designs...
3766 2013-03-12 04:38:52 <cjd> nope, being too proud is dangerous, but you all reacted well and you deserve some credit
3767 2013-03-12 04:38:55 <cjd> I watched
3768 2013-03-12 04:38:59 <mrb_> midnightmagic: there is no such thing
3769 2013-03-12 04:39:02 <jrmithdobbs> Xenon481: and even if it had been ... maybe some of the people making money off of that should be investing in some qa work or something :)
3770 2013-03-12 04:39:02 <B0g4r7> Pride goeth before ...
3771 2013-03-12 04:39:03 <gmaxwell> cjd: Go look at the git history for the consensus failing bugs that we discovered before they broke the network. Thats what we should be proud of... this was a mistake.— well handled perhaps, but a mistake none the less.
3772 2013-03-12 04:39:08 benkay has joined
3773 2013-03-12 04:39:13 <midnightmagic> mrb_: Ah. You seemed so sure. ;-)
3774 2013-03-12 04:39:23 maaku has joined
3775 2013-03-12 04:39:29 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
3776 2013-03-12 04:39:36 <TradeFortress> and I'm going to guess that the dev team is going to be much more careful in the future
3777 2013-03-12 04:39:37 <jrmithdobbs> Xenon481: because tbqh, this has been handled quite well.
3778 2013-03-12 04:39:38 affz has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3779 2013-03-12 04:39:46 barmstrong_ has joined
3780 2013-03-12 04:39:48 <gmaxwell> TradeFortress: I don't know that we can be without more resources.
3781 2013-03-12 04:39:51 ppcko has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3782 2013-03-12 04:40:12 <randy-waterhouse> seems to be a prima facie case here for big miners to invest in 'better' software upgrades
3783 2013-03-12 04:40:15 <randy-waterhouse> ?
3784 2013-03-12 04:40:18 <gmaxwell> TradeFortress: we knew the risks involved, and caught several other consensus breaking bugs.
3785 2013-03-12 04:40:19 sgornick_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3786 2013-03-12 04:40:20 <mrb_> I think I helped propagate this rumor :)
3787 2013-03-12 04:40:30 eataudio has joined
3788 2013-03-12 04:40:34 <gmaxwell> randy-waterhouse: 0.8 was deployed excessively fast by mining pools because it was such an improvement.
3789 2013-03-12 04:40:36 lnxmad has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3790 2013-03-12 04:40:36 <petertodd> randy-waterhouse: Miners upgrading was what caused the issue.
3791 2013-03-12 04:40:45 <randy-waterhouse> precisely
3792 2013-03-12 04:40:46 evoorhees has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3793 2013-03-12 04:40:48 <TradeFortress> gmaxwell, right, well we're not switching a DB system twice are year
3794 2013-03-12 04:40:53 <randy-waterhouse> but they are the ones losing money right now
3795 2013-03-12 04:40:55 <MK`> Told a friend who was mining on .8 to stop
3796 2013-03-12 04:40:55 <TradeFortress> a*
3797 2013-03-12 04:40:56 <epylar> miners have a lot of trust in the devs.
3798 2013-03-12 04:40:57 na8flush has joined
3799 2013-03-12 04:40:59 barmstrong has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3800 2013-03-12 04:40:59 barmstrong_ is now known as barmstrong
3801 2013-03-12 04:40:59 FredEE has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3802 2013-03-12 04:40:59 FredEE_ is now known as FredEE
3803 2013-03-12 04:41:01 <midnightmagic> mrb_: I was careful about the attribution.. but I'd always wanted to ask follow-ups. heh heh
3804 2013-03-12 04:41:04 <theymos> gmaxwell: Even I upgraded to 0.8, and I stayed with 0.3.x for over a year. :)
3805 2013-03-12 04:41:10 <MK`> "I CAN'T" "I'M MILES AWAY >:O"
3806 2013-03-12 04:41:20 <gmaxwell> We had discussed discouraging mining— even explicitly removing it for 0.8, earlier in the process... but after fixing a number of things it felt solid and it seemed likely that people would ignore the advice.
3807 2013-03-12 04:41:27 <Eleuthria> theymost:  No...you're not one of those 0.3.24 people are you?
3808 2013-03-12 04:41:31 <helo> so most nodes right now are receiving blocks on and maintaining two different chains?
3809 2013-03-12 04:41:41 <petertodd> helo: Basically yes
3810 2013-03-12 04:41:41 <theymos> Eleuthria: I was for a long time. (Though I don't mine anymore.)
3811 2013-03-12 04:41:43 <Eleuthria> 0.3.24, old faithful we used to call it.
3812 2013-03-12 04:41:44 <TradeFortress> helo, yes, depending on which version they are on. a reorg is going to happen soon
3813 2013-03-12 04:41:49 <gmaxwell> 0.3.19 I think, theymos didn't like the anti-dust fees. IIRC
3814 2013-03-12 04:41:50 <helo> with one chosen as the "longest"?
3815 2013-03-12 04:41:55 <benkay> lola faithful
3816 2013-03-12 04:41:59 TheSeven has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3817 2013-03-12 04:41:59 <benkay> lold*faithful
3818 2013-03-12 04:42:03 <B0g4r7> Ubuntu Software Center still installs 0.3.24 I think.
3819 2013-03-12 04:42:03 <petertodd> helo: If you are on 0.7 you're node should be in "safemode" and won't let you do anything.
3820 2013-03-12 04:42:06 <gmaxwell> helo: greatest sum difficulty
3821 2013-03-12 04:42:09 <randy-waterhouse> what i'm trying to say is if miners were investing better in s/ware upgrades and testing they may not be losing money ... just a suggestion
3822 2013-03-12 04:42:19 <jrmithdobbs> helo: currently .8 is still longest but it'll sort shortly
3823 2013-03-12 04:42:26 <cjd> gmaxwell: IMO one of the disasters of the blockchain design is that any bug in validation is devistating, you just can't be perfect all the time. Seeing one handled well makes me feel a lot better.
3824 2013-03-12 04:42:28 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3825 2013-03-12 04:42:29 <jrmithdobbs> or did it surpass yet
3826 2013-03-12 04:42:32 <petertodd> randy-waterhouse: It's not really a bug you'd expect miners to catch, other than by paying for more dev team members.
3827 2013-03-12 04:42:35 Ashaman has joined
3828 2013-03-12 04:42:38 BitBlitz has joined
3829 2013-03-12 04:42:39 <Eleuthria> We still need 9 blocks to pass up 0.8
3830 2013-03-12 04:42:50 <Eleuthria> But 0.8 hasn't had a block in almost 90 minutes
3831 2013-03-12 04:42:51 TheSeven has joined
3832 2013-03-12 04:42:54 <Eleuthria> So we're looking pretty good
3833 2013-03-12 04:42:54 enarjord has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3834 2013-03-12 04:42:57 <epylar> i thought safe mode was disabled a long time ago.
3835 2013-03-12 04:43:00 <B0g4r7> It would help if there were a mechanism for miners to pay for dev efforts.
3836 2013-03-12 04:43:01 <gmaxwell> cjd: I don't agree— it's an important and fundimental thing. Bitcoin is a consensus system. Nodes trust _no one_ else. That means they must think for themselves.
3837 2013-03-12 04:43:02 <petertodd> epylar: Nope
3838 2013-03-12 04:43:03 <jrmithdobbs> Eleuthria: sweet
3839 2013-03-12 04:43:11 <randy-waterhouse> petertodd: i agree .. it is hard to call it bug at all really, but some incentive may now be in place for the profits of mining to flow back to devs
3840 2013-03-12 04:43:15 <randy-waterhouse> and testers
3841 2013-03-12 04:43:19 <gmaxwell> cjd: and sure, that does mean that the engineering here is very hard.
3842 2013-03-12 04:43:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3843 2013-03-12 04:43:29 <petertodd> epylar: Having it triggered by a special message was disabled though; 0.7 triggers it because it sees a fork.
3844 2013-03-12 04:43:35 <cjd> yeap, beyond me
3845 2013-03-12 04:43:36 <epylar> petertodd: interesting
3846 2013-03-12 04:43:36 <midnightmagic> what's 0.7.x current head?
3847 2013-03-12 04:43:41 mokahless has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3848 2013-03-12 04:43:42 <gmaxwell> randy-waterhouse: yea, generally it's impossible to monetize decenteralized systems. :(
3849 2013-03-12 04:43:48 i2pRelay has joined
3850 2013-03-12 04:44:04 <TradeFortress> gmaxwell, unless you premine all the coins like ripple :P
3851 2013-03-12 04:44:09 Thumper_UK has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3852 2013-03-12 04:44:14 <bVector> or you code it into the default client
3853 2013-03-12 04:44:21 <Derringer> PREMINE ALL THE ... never mind.
3854 2013-03-12 04:44:25 SteveDekorte has quit (Quit: SteveDekorte)
3855 2013-03-12 04:44:27 <theymos> How well would this have been handled if Freenode was offline during the emergency, or if some of the core developers were compromised?
3856 2013-03-12 04:44:31 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3857 2013-03-12 04:44:34 <petertodd> randy-waterhouse: Look at it this way, Bitcoin has a real market cap of probably 250million. 0.1% of that would pay for just one dev salary, yet would represent a pretty large tx fee essentially per year.
3858 2013-03-12 04:44:34 <BenderCoin> gmaxwell, you can monetize the decentralized system with a little creativity
3859 2013-03-12 04:44:42 NilamDoc has joined
3860 2013-03-12 04:44:45 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3861 2013-03-12 04:44:47 <gmaxwell> I just heard back from [Tycho], he confirms that he's on pre0.8
3862 2013-03-12 04:44:47 <TradeFortress> theymos, it would mean 0.7.x miners will need to upgrade
3863 2013-03-12 04:44:55 <B0g4r7> ;;bc,blocks
3864 2013-03-12 04:44:55 <gribble> 225445
3865 2013-03-12 04:44:55 <samurai1200> theymos: very important
3866 2013-03-12 04:45:00 <B0g4r7> midmightmagic ^
3867 2013-03-12 04:45:10 <BenderCoin> gmaxwell, for example create a developer lottery, 99% payout to players and 1% to dev core team.
3868 2013-03-12 04:45:16 <cjd> So maybe people will stop talking about block size limits and demarrage and such things now that we've seen a hard fork in action...
3869 2013-03-12 04:45:17 <midnightmagic> B0g4r7: thanks
3870 2013-03-12 04:45:18 <gmaxwell> BenderCoin: options are limited. Obviously, people can just remove your monetization, put themselves instead, etc.
3871 2013-03-12 04:45:21 mokahless has joined
3872 2013-03-12 04:45:33 <epylar> i would assume anyone who's a core dev probably already has a lot of BTC due to being a very early adopter
3873 2013-03-12 04:45:51 <gmaxwell> cjd: this was hardly much of a fork, in fact.
3874 2013-03-12 04:45:53 <egecko> that would probably be a bad assumption too
3875 2013-03-12 04:45:56 <TradeFortress> epylar, but that's an indirect incentive
3876 2013-03-12 04:45:56 <gmaxwell> epylar: bad assumption.
3877 2013-03-12 04:45:58 <cjd> epylar: wrong, devs are poor as a rule :)
3878 2013-03-12 04:45:58 <Xenon481> petertodd: BTC MarketCap is currently slightly under 500million
3879 2013-03-12 04:46:01 <Xenon481> USD
3880 2013-03-12 04:46:14 thefinn93 has joined
3881 2013-03-12 04:46:14 Guest47610 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3882 2013-03-12 04:46:16 <wizkid057> ;;bc,tslb
3883 2013-03-12 04:46:16 <gribble> Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
3884 2013-03-12 04:46:29 gweedo has quit (Quit: gweedo)
3885 2013-03-12 04:46:29 <k9quaint> epylar: dev BTC was converted into hookers and beer eons ago
3886 2013-03-12 04:46:33 <ligar> just to make shure i am not derping. I am using .8 clients on my servers but NOT minning, this is ok and should not cause an issue as the .7 blockchain should suppercide the .8 chain causing my server to accept it as the longest. correct?
3887 2013-03-12 04:46:36 <gmaxwell> epylar: being around a long time ago just meant the bar for giving away coin was lower. :P
3888 2013-03-12 04:46:42 <petertodd> Xenon481: I mean not including the likely 50% of lost coins.
3889 2013-03-12 04:46:42 <epylar> heh, spent it all on pizza eh?
3890 2013-03-12 04:46:51 <copumpkin> epylar: hindsight is 20/20!
3891 2013-03-12 04:46:55 <gmaxwell> ligar: correct!
3892 2013-03-12 04:47:15 rphlx has joined
3893 2013-03-12 04:47:18 <TradeFortress> ligar, yup, just take a nap and come back after the storm has settled
3894 2013-03-12 04:47:22 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: not even hindsight, you could have just given away a bunch and bought more to replace it if you really wanted to hold it.
3895 2013-03-12 04:47:38 <ligar> <- loves watching them bootstrap other nodes
3896 2013-03-12 04:47:47 <copumpkin> yeah, I'm just saying that all the folks saying "damn, I wish I'd been around in the earlier days" are assuming they'd have kept it until now
3897 2013-03-12 04:47:49 Tril has left ()
3898 2013-03-12 04:47:50 knotwork has joined
3899 2013-03-12 04:47:51 <k9quaint> epylar: I however, was one of the earliest hookers accepting BTC as payment, so I am flush ;)
3900 2013-03-12 04:47:56 Atheros2 has joined
3901 2013-03-12 04:47:56 <Xenon481> petertodd: I've been out of the loop for a while; is that really the current estimate for lost coins? That's scary.
3902 2013-03-12 04:47:56 <vindimy> thanks to devs, pool admins, and the rest of bitcoin community for such quick and swift action to remediate the issue <3
3903 2013-03-12 04:48:01 toffoo_ has joined
3904 2013-03-12 04:48:06 satrina has joined
3905 2013-03-12 04:48:09 <oldbushie> cheers
3906 2013-03-12 04:48:16 <TradeFortress> Xenon481, ?? no
3907 2013-03-12 04:48:16 toffoo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3908 2013-03-12 04:48:17 toffoo_ is now known as toffoo
3909 2013-03-12 04:48:21 <petertodd> Xenon481: Bitcoin was basically worthless for two years, what do you expect?
3910 2013-03-12 04:48:23 <oldbushie> I am impressed at the quick catch
3911 2013-03-12 04:48:27 <TradeFortress> mined coins can't be spent after 120 confirms btw
3912 2013-03-12 04:48:37 <Luke-Jr> 100*
3913 2013-03-12 04:48:43 <TradeFortress> the losses were on the pools, and sites accepting coins that could be double spent
3914 2013-03-12 04:48:52 <Eleuthria> Yeah, this was caught fairly quick.
3915 2013-03-12 04:48:55 <nealmcb> Eleuthria: When did you switch versions?  [and for everyone - is there a useful timeline of the situation out there?]
3916 2013-03-12 04:48:58 Hashdog has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3917 2013-03-12 04:49:04 <Eleuthria> When Luke notified me of the fork we were only 5 blocks apart in the chains
3918 2013-03-12 04:49:14 <B0g4r7> How was it first detected?
3919 2013-03-12 04:49:14 bbc_guy has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931])
3920 2013-03-12 04:49:16 <nealmcb> Excellent
3921 2013-03-12 04:49:16 <Xenon481> TradeFortress: Different subject. We are talking about long-ago orphaned coins that nobody knows wallets to anymore.
3922 2013-03-12 04:49:18 Cache_Money has joined
3923 2013-03-12 04:49:26 piuk__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3924 2013-03-12 04:49:35 <TradeFortress> Xenon481, oh, lol sorry :)
3925 2013-03-12 04:49:37 richardu has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3926 2013-03-12 04:49:37 <Eleuthria> nealmcb:  BTC Guild did rolling switchovers, started about 45 minutes after being notified
3927 2013-03-12 04:49:39 <B0g4r7> (the fork)
3928 2013-03-12 04:49:43 haberdasher has joined
3929 2013-03-12 04:49:44 Jamesonwa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3930 2013-03-12 04:49:46 <ligar> also weird request / question when the fixed .8 commes out will it also support big blocks? larger than 1MB
3931 2013-03-12 04:49:47 root____ has joined
3932 2013-03-12 04:49:52 <TradeFortress> I lost more than a thousand coins from a wiped wallet, back in the early days of CPU mining
3933 2013-03-12 04:49:59 IronWard has left ()
3934 2013-03-12 04:49:59 <TradeFortress> ligar, no
3935 2013-03-12 04:49:59 chewORcrush has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931])
3936 2013-03-12 04:50:02 <nanotube> ligar: no blocks >1mb
3937 2013-03-12 04:50:20 mokahless has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 18.0.1/20130116073211])
3938 2013-03-12 04:50:28 MarkyRamone has quit (Quit: MarkyRamone)
3939 2013-03-12 04:50:31 <epylar> tradefortress: wow, that's ~$40,000 today
3940 2013-03-12 04:50:39 <B0g4r7> That'd be worth sending off to DriveSavers for.
3941 2013-03-12 04:50:42 36DAC11IS has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3942 2013-03-12 04:50:52 <epylar> of course, you could say that about any random stock that eventually took off.  it's all hindsight.
3943 2013-03-12 04:51:05 <BlackPrapor> what's the number of transactions can a 1mb block hold?
3944 2013-03-12 04:51:11 <ligar> 2400
3945 2013-03-12 04:51:14 <ligar> or so
3946 2013-03-12 04:51:17 <gmaxwell> ligar: no. The system's rules constrain the block sizes (for a number of good and important reasons). They can't be changed without a risky and long transistion.
3947 2013-03-12 04:51:20 <TradeFortress> ligar, depends on the size
3948 2013-03-12 04:51:22 <oldbushie> it's like buying paperclips on the off chance that they'll quadruple in value
3949 2013-03-12 04:51:23 <Eleuthria> ~2400 if they're all single input/output
3950 2013-03-12 04:51:24 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3951 2013-03-12 04:51:29 <Eleuthria> Realistically, more like 1500
3952 2013-03-12 04:51:29 <TradeFortress> Yeah, in reality a lot less
3953 2013-03-12 04:51:37 benkay has left ()
3954 2013-03-12 04:51:44 <epylar> maybe we'll have a paperclip mania
3955 2013-03-12 04:51:48 <epylar> like the tulip mania.
3956 2013-03-12 04:51:52 <B0g4r7> hah
3957 2013-03-12 04:52:02 i2pRelay has joined
3958 2013-03-12 04:52:07 <oldbushie> I'm just now getting into the thick of things because of concerns about US Debt and rising talks of Bitcoin, also a few of my favorite sites accept Bitcoins as donations now
3959 2013-03-12 04:52:10 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: a bit more with compressed public keys.  ... in the extreme case, e.g. there is one with about 4000 in the testnet chain, for example.
3960 2013-03-12 04:52:11 <criptoe> Where/how can you see how far apart the forks are?
3961 2013-03-12 04:52:12 root____ has quit (Client Quit)
3962 2013-03-12 04:52:12 <oldbushie> lol, tulip mania
3963 2013-03-12 04:52:29 <satrina> wow this room is buzzing
3964 2013-03-12 04:52:30 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3965 2013-03-12 04:52:41 <oldbushie> https://blockchain.info/blocks
3966 2013-03-12 04:52:45 joeblack has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3967 2013-03-12 04:52:47 <TradeFortress> criptoe, it's the sum difficulty, not just blocks
3968 2013-03-12 04:52:50 <Eleuthria> gmaxwell:  Ah, true, I was assuming standard (at least for now) single input/output transactions
3969 2013-03-12 04:52:56 <helo> as long as this unprecedented reorg doesn't bring up some other problem
3970 2013-03-12 04:52:58 <B0g4r7> Current divergence is 8 blocks.
3971 2013-03-12 04:53:14 <Eleuthria> 0.7 having a bit of bad luck, 40 minutes with no block
3972 2013-03-12 04:53:21 <Eleuthria> But 0.8 hasn't had one either, so we're not falling behind
3973 2013-03-12 04:53:24 <lianj> 40 minutes since last block, come on
3974 2013-03-12 04:53:32 <randy-waterhouse> hashpower is split
3975 2013-03-12 04:53:33 greenl1ght is now known as greenl1ght|away
3976 2013-03-12 04:53:42 <Eleuthria> The vast majority of power is on 0.7 now
3977 2013-03-12 04:53:43 <oldbushie> this is like watching a horse race with checkpoints reeeeeally far apart :P
3978 2013-03-12 04:53:45 <MK`> there's a thread on 4chan with some people specifically putting their clusters on 0.8 to destabilize, but usual caveat on trusting any of that.
3979 2013-03-12 04:53:48 <epylar> mostly individual miners mining on 0.8?  or unknown pools?
3980 2013-03-12 04:53:50 <helo> half-speed blocks heh
3981 2013-03-12 04:53:51 <anachron> Everybody's stopping transactions waiting for this to resolve?
3982 2013-03-12 04:53:54 <gmaxwell> randy-waterhouse: it's pretty clear that more is on 0.8 by some margin, but .. 'crap happens'.
3983 2013-03-12 04:54:01 doost has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3984 2013-03-12 04:54:05 newbie has joined
3985 2013-03-12 04:54:07 <randy-waterhouse> gmaxwell: how is that possible?
3986 2013-03-12 04:54:11 <lianj> MK`: classic 4chan
3987 2013-03-12 04:54:12 skeledrew has joined
3988 2013-03-12 04:54:14 <gmaxwell> MK`: lol. wouldn't hurt anything.
3989 2013-03-12 04:54:15 <anachron> It'd be nice if someone slapped together a live web site to show the status of the block-chain overtaking
3990 2013-03-12 04:54:16 <MK`> :P
3991 2013-03-12 04:54:17 <TradeFortress> randy-waterhouse, mining is random
3992 2013-03-12 04:54:28 <anachron> (I'm not so technically gifted.)
3993 2013-03-12 04:54:35 <gmaxwell> randy-waterhouse: gah. I meant more on 0.7 by some margin!
3994 2013-03-12 04:54:35 <satrina> TradeFortress: somewhat random, its not really random, but c
3995 2013-03-12 04:54:38 <gmaxwell> long day.
3996 2013-03-12 04:54:40 <satrina> comes close
3997 2013-03-12 04:54:48 <B0g4r7> I moved my normally-scrypt miners over to help.
3998 2013-03-12 04:54:49 <randy-waterhouse> right ok ...
3999 2013-03-12 04:55:01 <grn_home> https://polmine.pl/ is on the bad fork.
4000 2013-03-12 04:55:01 <BlackPrapor> gmaxwell: compressed public keys meaning many transactions to the same address can occupy less space in the block?
4001 2013-03-12 04:55:09 <satrina> gmaxwell: as long as its only bad and not show stopping, we can still be happy
4002 2013-03-12 04:55:21 <MK`> I can only mine about 300 Mh/s so I doubt I could help much :(
4003 2013-03-12 04:55:24 ali_ has joined
4004 2013-03-12 04:55:35 <Luke-Jr> slush: are you all 0.7 now?
4005 2013-03-12 04:55:48 <slush> Luke-Jr: using patched 0.8
4006 2013-03-12 04:55:53 <satrina> MK`: i also brought back my 600mh on 0.7 now
4007 2013-03-12 04:55:54 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: No. As in addresses generated by newer bitcoin and bitcoinj take less space (about 1/3rd less) when spent.
4008 2013-03-12 04:55:57 <wizkid057> still nothing on "good" chain past 225445?
4009 2013-03-12 04:55:59 <B0g4r7> Slush is on the fixed 0.8, blocking the bad block.
4010 2013-03-12 04:56:02 <slush> 0.7 is syncing, for any case
4011 2013-03-12 04:56:06 jb17 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4012 2013-03-12 04:56:08 <TradeFortress> wizkid057, yeah, pretty unlucky
4013 2013-03-12 04:56:08 <gmaxwell> Doesn't apply to vanity addresses or addresses built by old software.
4014 2013-03-12 04:56:25 hctib has joined
4015 2013-03-12 04:56:28 <wizkid057> eligius is at almost 1TH/sec on good chain... nothing yet
4016 2013-03-12 04:56:30 <gmaxwell> grn_home: do you have contact information for them? can you reach out and encourage them to switch?
4017 2013-03-12 04:56:40 Maged has quit (Disconnected by services)
4018 2013-03-12 04:56:48 Maged_ has joined
4019 2013-03-12 04:57:02 <epylar> this would be a great time for butterfly labs to finally turn on their prototype miners
4020 2013-03-12 04:57:05 <grn_home> I'm looking.  There is #polmine, but it looks pretty empty.
4021 2013-03-12 04:57:05 Maged_ is now known as Maged
4022 2013-03-12 04:57:29 <helo> there isn't i18n on those broadcast warnings, is there? :)
4023 2013-03-12 04:57:30 <grn_home> Someone in the BFL Shoutbox mentioned there were mining there, and were on ....53.  I suggested they stop.  :)
4024 2013-03-12 04:57:40 <gmaxwell> helo: right
4025 2013-03-12 04:57:45 <TradeFortress> would fuzz testing have prevented this bug?
4026 2013-03-12 04:57:46 tonylorusso has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4027 2013-03-12 04:57:50 <BlackPrapor> gmaxwell: in that case, I see the bitcoin to be used for banking and b2b transactions only, and litecoin for p2p and b2p
4028 2013-03-12 04:57:53 <TradeFortress> compare to see if versions handle it differently
4029 2013-03-12 04:57:57 Atheros2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4030 2013-03-12 04:58:04 <criptoe> Those BFL prototypes would have to be made of more than vapor for this to work...
4031 2013-03-12 04:58:12 <BlackPrapor> either way, bitcoin can't handle it all
4032 2013-03-12 04:58:16 <perhapstired> is the buggy block on 0.7.x created when two people did a transaction and one of them didn't have enough hard disk space, or was the buggy block created when some guy was mining but didn't have enough hard disk space?
4033 2013-03-12 04:58:18 bitcoin-dev319 has joined
4034 2013-03-12 04:58:19 <helo> TradeFortress: there were tests for the size of blocks, but not the reoranization complexity
4035 2013-03-12 04:58:22 <gmaxwell> TradeFortress: no. We do fuzz test. Perhaps a very specialized kind of fuzztester (that produced valid blocks with random txn, e.g. simulating a whole network) would.
4036 2013-03-12 04:58:38 <TradeFortress> BlackPrapor, Bitcoin does not need to handle everything.
4037 2013-03-12 04:58:49 <perhapstired> Or did I misunderstand?
4038 2013-03-12 04:58:55 <gmaxwell> helo: blocktester actually tests reorgs of (all?) it's blocks. But it never mines one with a ton of input and outputs, just a large maximum size.
4039 2013-03-12 04:58:59 <lianj> perhapstired: yes, nothing of those
4040 2013-03-12 04:59:02 rhettig4n has joined
4041 2013-03-12 04:59:14 <satrina> perhapstired: http://www.thebitcointrader.com/2013/03/breaking-blockchain-has-forked.html
4042 2013-03-12 04:59:19 <satrina> just to get up to speed on the situation
4043 2013-03-12 04:59:22 prurigro has left ()
4044 2013-03-12 04:59:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4045 2013-03-12 04:59:24 <BlackPrapor> TradeFortress: now I can understand why ltc is up in price =)
4046 2013-03-12 04:59:42 PinkPanther has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4047 2013-03-12 04:59:46 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: it's not clear why you think that. Litecoin is almost exactly bitcoin... just with the interblock time reduced and the POW changed. The smaller block time may result in convergence problems when it has more traffic.
4048 2013-03-12 05:00:01 <epylar> This is only a miner issue.
4049 2013-03-12 05:00:04 i2pRelay has joined
4050 2013-03-12 05:00:06 rhettig4n has quit (Client Quit)
4051 2013-03-12 05:00:12 <TradeFortress> right, in fact if litecoin was updated then the same problem would be happening there if it had more users
4052 2013-03-12 05:00:22 <gmaxwell> perhapstired: has nothing to do with the things you listed.
4053 2013-03-12 05:00:28 <TradeFortress> alt cryptocurrencies are useful if they change the code or do it in a different way
4054 2013-03-12 05:01:07 suckitpunk has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4055 2013-03-12 05:01:19 <B0g4r7> quadruple the block rate means quadruple the aggregate transaction volume capacity.
4056 2013-03-12 05:01:25 <perhapstired> ok thanks i'm reading up satrina's suggestions
4057 2013-03-12 05:01:25 <gmaxwell> TradeFortress: I have a whole long list of interesting things for altcoins to do... but basically 95% of all altcoins just make some trivial change that takes about 10 minutes to the code and thats it.
4058 2013-03-12 05:01:41 <satrina> TradeFortress: that is debateable, because unless they gather enough support and integration (merchants etc) they are mainly i'll mine and trade for the currency of my choice, hence failing their purpose as a medium of trade
4059 2013-03-12 05:01:42 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
4060 2013-03-12 05:01:56 aeneas has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4061 2013-03-12 05:02:06 <gmaxwell> B0g4r7: not if they can't actually converge.. Their current codebase would fork like crazy with max sized blocks: nodes couldn't sync up fast enough before the next block came.
4062 2013-03-12 05:02:40 <nanotube> perhapstired: see first link in topic for summary of what happened.
4063 2013-03-12 05:02:41 <BlackPrapor> gmaxwell: I see it like that, because eventually bitcoin will hit the limit, and then fees will go up. Only businesses will be able to afford it more or less. For business security is more important, and bitcoin being more developed will provide it. Litecoin has faster transactions, therefore its more suitable for consumers
4064 2013-03-12 05:02:44 bububu is now known as Glitched
4065 2013-03-12 05:02:45 <gmaxwell> B0g4r7: though I expect if they rebased on bitcoin 0.8 they could probably handle that. hopefully. If there aren't too many common desktops as fullnodes.
4066 2013-03-12 05:02:46 gmatteson has joined
4067 2013-03-12 05:02:56 Sydna has quit (Quit: Sydna)
4068 2013-03-12 05:03:00 <B0g4r7> hmm
4069 2013-03-12 05:03:12 <TradeFortress> satrina, sure, but there's a thousand ways to do an alt cryptocurrency and bitcoin is just one of them. it's debatable if other methods are better.
4070 2013-03-12 05:03:22 xempew has quit (Quit: xempew)
4071 2013-03-12 05:03:25 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: well it's not clear what will happen. The only reason the blocksize limit exists in bitcoin is that it's not clear what the maximum viable size is.
4072 2013-03-12 05:03:29 <Eleuthria> 225446
4073 2013-03-12 05:03:34 wzyboy has joined
4074 2013-03-12 05:03:46 <Eleuthria> At least some of 50 BTC's nodes are on 0.7
4075 2013-03-12 05:03:50 <Eleuthria> That's good news
4076 2013-03-12 05:04:08 <RoboTeddy> 225453-225446 = 7 blocks difference now
4077 2013-03-12 05:04:18 <samurai1200> ugh don't let this room devolve into btctalk-esque speculation chat!
4078 2013-03-12 05:04:23 <Eleuthria> 0.7 has ~20 TH/s on it at minimum
4079 2013-03-12 05:04:23 <BlackPrapor> gmaxwell: I might get it wrong here, but I'm sure that the limit can only be passed using faster networks AND higher capacity storage devices =)
4080 2013-03-12 05:04:25 <satrina> TradeFortress: please do enlighten me on things other than Exchange for other currencies and Commerce that a crypto currency is useful for
4081 2013-03-12 05:04:28 <ali_> Has this problem been occurring for the past 12 hours at least? I could not manage to setup mining earlier today
4082 2013-03-12 05:04:30 <Eleuthria> Closer to 25 TH/s probably
4083 2013-03-12 05:04:31 uubu has joined
4084 2013-03-12 05:04:40 <ali_> Just wondering if it was related
4085 2013-03-12 05:04:45 <Liquid-Sin> bring back +m! no seriously. bring back +m
4086 2013-03-12 05:04:50 xorrbit has joined
4087 2013-03-12 05:04:50 <oldbushie> only a couple hours ali_
4088 2013-03-12 05:04:53 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: some people want to increase the block size limit in bitcoin in the near future. Other people are very concerned about doing that only very carefully.
4089 2013-03-12 05:04:53 <samurai1200> ali_ probably not
4090 2013-03-12 05:04:54 amaloz has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
4091 2013-03-12 05:05:01 <user11> ккк
4092 2013-03-12 05:05:07 <gmaxwell> Liquid-Sin: nothing important is happening now. But yea, please no speculation.
4093 2013-03-12 05:05:15 <gmaxwell> user11: Whats the significance of that?
4094 2013-03-12 05:05:22 <ali_> Well now I'm kind of sad it was another reason :P
4095 2013-03-12 05:05:35 Batteryfire has quit (Quit: Batteryfire)
4096 2013-03-12 05:05:48 <TradeFortress> We should have a party after a re-org.
4097 2013-03-12 05:05:54 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: [BB])
4098 2013-03-12 05:05:59 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: especially since the market seems to be failing right now in encouraging efficient usage of the blockchain space.
4099 2013-03-12 05:06:13 <randy-waterhouse> ^^
4100 2013-03-12 05:06:16 brie has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4101 2013-03-12 05:06:18 <satrina> TradeFortress: a minute of shame for not catching this prior to the incident would be more like it
4102 2013-03-12 05:06:23 <satrina> afterwards beer ofc ;)
4103 2013-03-12 05:06:35 Maged has quit (Disconnected by services)
4104 2013-03-12 05:06:41 <egecko> blockchain space isnt important to the market yet
4105 2013-03-12 05:06:42 Maged_ has joined
4106 2013-03-12 05:06:43 <TradeFortress> satrina, a moment of shame for whom?
4107 2013-03-12 05:06:43 <BlackPrapor> gmaxwell: tell that to the satoshi dice players...they just don't care it seems
4108 2013-03-12 05:07:00 Maged_ is now known as Maged
4109 2013-03-12 05:07:07 Batteryfire has joined
4110 2013-03-12 05:07:14 <satrina> for us all for not predicting that this would happen, i personally blame myself for not looking at the code more :P
4111 2013-03-12 05:07:17 <samurai1200> in my head i imagine the upcoming re-org point the center of binary stars, orbiting around each other till they collide
4112 2013-03-12 05:07:22 <samurai1200> then BAM re-org singularity
4113 2013-03-12 05:07:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4114 2013-03-12 05:07:29 sawtooth has joined
4115 2013-03-12 05:07:33 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: "don't blame the player blame the game"  ... well our assumptions about how all this would work may not be valid.
4116 2013-03-12 05:07:36 <mrb_> a consequence of this fork is that the Bitcoin Android Wallet is now unusable as people withdraw 0.8 nodes supporting bloom fiters :(
4117 2013-03-12 05:07:41 <kanoi> 0.7 blocktime is currently: average block time since 225430 = 21m 12.67s = -52.85%
4118 2013-03-12 05:07:42 MashRinx has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4119 2013-03-12 05:07:53 <Eleuthria> mrb_:  People will still be running 0.8 nodes
4120 2013-03-12 05:07:55 i2pRelay has joined
4121 2013-03-12 05:07:56 <TradeFortress> mrb_, nodes are not affected, only miners
4122 2013-03-12 05:07:58 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: the idea that people won't flood the network with tiny transactions because doing so is expensive is predicated on the 'attacker' being economically rational.
4123 2013-03-12 05:08:06 <ligar> .8 just got a block :|
4124 2013-03-12 05:08:06 <kanoi> (17 blocks)
4125 2013-03-12 05:08:09 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: This assumption is clearly invalid in some cases.
4126 2013-03-12 05:08:11 <user11> i am a merchant and i am credited BTC up to 225447  block :<
4127 2013-03-12 05:08:23 <Eleuthria> ligar: ?  225453 is still the latest 0.8 block I see
4128 2013-03-12 05:08:25 <petertodd> ligar: Not seeing it yet...
4129 2013-03-12 05:08:31 xempew has joined
4130 2013-03-12 05:08:31 Maged has quit (Disconnected by services)
4131 2013-03-12 05:08:33 <TradeFortress> user11, you will only lose coins if people try to double spend
4132 2013-03-12 05:08:37 rowit_ has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
4133 2013-03-12 05:08:37 <gmaxwell> user11: you're still likely paid just fine in the other fork too.
4134 2013-03-12 05:08:39 Maged_ has joined
4135 2013-03-12 05:08:40 <Xenon481> And we've already seen in the past that attackers are often not economically rational.
4136 2013-03-12 05:08:43 <satrina> user11: suspend trading wait and see what happens
4137 2013-03-12 05:08:49 <gmaxwell> user11: but just to be sure you should act as those those payements are unconfirmed.
4138 2013-03-12 05:08:51 <mrb_> right, let's communicate this clearly to non-miner that they can and should stay on 0.8
4139 2013-03-12 05:08:56 Maged_ is now known as Maged
4140 2013-03-12 05:08:57 <mrb_> *non-miners
4141 2013-03-12 05:09:00 <gmaxwell> Xenon481: well even if they are not— they at least run out of money eventually in most cases!
4142 2013-03-12 05:09:05 xorrbit has left ()
4143 2013-03-12 05:09:07 <BlackPrapor> gmaxwell: its invalid to the point, that in some time to the future, we will eventually hit the limit, even with all transactions being "rational"
4144 2013-03-12 05:09:10 <sawtooth> Does anyone run co
4145 2013-03-12 05:09:11 BTCTrader2 has joined
4146 2013-03-12 05:09:13 gasteve has quit (Quit: leaving)
4147 2013-03-12 05:09:18 <gmaxwell> Xenon481: but what happens if you have an army of eager economically irrational people jumping at a chance to lose money? :(
4148 2013-03-12 05:09:21 <ali_> Will it be possible to merge blocks?
4149 2013-03-12 05:09:24 gmatteson has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4150 2013-03-12 05:09:24 wzyboy has quit ()
4151 2013-03-12 05:09:26 Atheros2 has joined
4152 2013-03-12 05:09:27 gmatteson_ has joined
4153 2013-03-12 05:09:36 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: hitting the limit is good and proper and essential, at least at some point.
4154 2013-03-12 05:09:37 <user11> i see that there is no transaction in 'side' branch
4155 2013-03-12 05:09:43 sgornick has joined
4156 2013-03-12 05:09:50 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: in the long term the security of the system will be paid purely by transaction fees.
4157 2013-03-12 05:09:51 <ligar> Eleuthria:  nm weird software weird
4158 2013-03-12 05:09:54 <gmatteson_> Hello, does anyone have experience working with Bitcoin Exchanges?
4159 2013-03-12 05:09:59 <user11> transaction to me
4160 2013-03-12 05:10:02 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: otherwise there is no way to pay for security, since the subsidy will go away.
4161 2013-03-12 05:10:06 <TradeFortress> BlackPrapor, at that point is when most people use a PSP instead of o the blockchain
4162 2013-03-12 05:10:07 <ligar> Block #225453 is the highest current
4163 2013-03-12 05:10:27 <RoboTeddy> ligar: that block was found at 2013-03-12 03:28:41 -- not recently
4164 2013-03-12 05:10:30 <kanoi> ligar - that is 0.8 - not 0.7
4165 2013-03-12 05:10:32 <TradeFortress> gmaxwell, unless mining rewards never stops, but that wouldn't have allowed the bitcoin price to get so high
4166 2013-03-12 05:10:38 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: without bumping into the limit its not obvious why the fees would be high enough to provide security— absent anti-market collusive activity by a majority clique of miners.
4167 2013-03-12 05:10:40 <sawtooth> Does anyone run code to compare side branches against the main branch looking for double spends? Im curious if anyone has attempted it
4168 2013-03-12 05:10:41 MemoryDealers has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4169 2013-03-12 05:10:49 <BlackPrapor> TradeFortress: what's psp?
4170 2013-03-12 05:11:00 <TradeFortress> Payment services provider, think Coinbase
4171 2013-03-12 05:11:09 zAndv has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4172 2013-03-12 05:11:09 <TradeFortress> If you want to buy reddit gold, you can pay directly from your balance
4173 2013-03-12 05:11:10 <cyphase> so, has it been decided whether the bug was in 0.7 or 0.8? i might have missed it
4174 2013-03-12 05:11:11 <gmaxwell> TradeFortress: but thats broken too, then you end up fixing the 'value' of bitcoin to how much we want to pay miners, which is distorted and perverse.
4175 2013-03-12 05:11:13 <ligar> RoboTeddy: kanoi i know just saying i saw wrong on my end :P (admiting bad call)
4176 2013-03-12 05:11:20 <gmaxwell> cyphase: "thats complicated"
4177 2013-03-12 05:11:26 <TradeFortress> cyphase: move to 0.7
4178 2013-03-12 05:11:30 <cyphase> gmaxwell, right :)
4179 2013-03-12 05:11:32 <nanotube> anachron: http://blockchain.info/blocks/
4180 2013-03-12 05:11:34 <samurai1200> gmaxwell, that guy with the C++ app on btctalk... his block parser should be able to do it with a little tweaking
4181 2013-03-12 05:11:38 <TradeFortress> IMO bug is in 0.7
4182 2013-03-12 05:11:45 <anachron> Got it, thx
4183 2013-03-12 05:11:46 <samurai1200> assuming he can get copies of both chains
4184 2013-03-12 05:11:48 komododragon_ has left ()
4185 2013-03-12 05:12:09 <gmaxwell> cyphase: 0.8 was buggy in that it did not faithfully emulate 0.7 which was an absolute non-negoitable requirement. 0.7 was buggy because it had an unknown implicit limitation that arose out of the behavior of the underlying database library.
4186 2013-03-12 05:12:21 t4nk136 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4187 2013-03-12 05:12:32 <kanoi> ligar - jsut to add to that :) Current 0.7 is 225446 ...005e291bf329...
4188 2013-03-12 05:12:32 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, you happen to know what the heads are for the two forks?
4189 2013-03-12 05:12:33 newbie has quit (5!kvirc@cpe-66-65-120-151.nyc.res.rr.com|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4190 2013-03-12 05:12:38 sdf8ee8fdh8 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4191 2013-03-12 05:12:47 <epylar> gmaxwell: but at some point we have to do a hard fork to get past the 0.7 behavior?
4192 2013-03-12 05:12:52 <GMP> cyphase: in 0.7x "<sipa> the problem is BDB ran out of locks and can't do modifications anymore" - essential line i missed too
4193 2013-03-12 05:12:53 <satrina> that is why unfortunatly bitcoin clients need to be bug-by bug complete implementations for most of the time
4194 2013-03-12 05:12:57 MobiusL has joined
4195 2013-03-12 05:13:24 Quicksilver_ has joined
4196 2013-03-12 05:13:26 <TradeFortress> eplylar: Pretty sure.
4197 2013-03-12 05:13:32 <PatrikR> phantomcircuit: http://blockchain.info/blocks
4198 2013-03-12 05:13:39 <kanoi> GMP - locks in a single atomic transaction - I think it is
4199 2013-03-12 05:13:44 <phantomcircuit> i have a 0.8 client that's reporting 225446 as the block height
4200 2013-03-12 05:13:44 <TradeFortress> satrina, all software has bugs through
4201 2013-03-12 05:13:50 <BlackPrapor> TradeFortress: will using psp still provide miners with tx fees?
4202 2013-03-12 05:13:52 <satrina> not claiming otherwhise
4203 2013-03-12 05:13:52 <phantomcircuit> but im pretty sure that isn't right for either fork
4204 2013-03-12 05:14:02 <satrina> BlackPrapor: ofc ;)
4205 2013-03-12 05:14:12 <TradeFortress> BlackPrapor, nope, but there would have to be inter-PSP trades. predicting the miners fee where is no coinbase is hard.
4206 2013-03-12 05:14:24 gagecolton has joined
4207 2013-03-12 05:14:25 <BlackPrapor> TradeFortress: ok, I got your point
4208 2013-03-12 05:14:28 <satrina> http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/B/bug-for-bug-compatible.html
4209 2013-03-12 05:14:31 <RoboTeddy> phantomcircuit: 225446 is the current height of the 0.7 fork
4210 2013-03-12 05:14:39 <sturles> I wonder how my 0.8 clients will handle a major reorg like this.
4211 2013-03-12 05:14:48 <perhapstired> What are some of the serious and not so serious reasons as to why 0.7.x has this 'pathological block', if the issue isn't that it was too large a block?
4212 2013-03-12 05:14:49 <lianj> TradeFortress: coinbase.com doesnt do inter-psp trades
4213 2013-03-12 05:15:07 <phantomcircuit> RoboTeddy, hmm then my 0.8 client should be displaying the 0.8 fork
4214 2013-03-12 05:15:08 <phantomcircuit> weird
4215 2013-03-12 05:15:15 enikanorov_ has joined
4216 2013-03-12 05:15:16 <TradeFortress> lianj, not now, but in the future I'd imagine it will settle balances with other exchanges
4217 2013-03-12 05:15:22 <TradeFortress> kinda like how a lot of exchanges are working together now ;)
4218 2013-03-12 05:15:24 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4219 2013-03-12 05:15:31 <lianj> maybe
4220 2013-03-12 05:15:47 <RoboTeddy> phantomcircuit: is it possible that your 0.8 client just hasn't seen the longer fork yet..? I don't know how the gossip protocol works
4221 2013-03-12 05:15:54 <nanotube> phantomcircuit: 446 is the tip of 0.7 chain now.
4222 2013-03-12 05:15:57 i2pRelay has joined
4223 2013-03-12 05:16:08 <kanoi> oh the current block is 50btc also - so I guess that means they've switched :)
4224 2013-03-12 05:16:13 <phantomcircuit> it's possible im not connected to any 0.8 peers
4225 2013-03-12 05:16:19 Capn has joined
4226 2013-03-12 05:16:24 <Eleuthria> I'm not sure 50btc was ever on 0.8
4227 2013-03-12 05:16:27 <Eleuthria> I'm hoping they weren't
4228 2013-03-12 05:16:38 Maged has quit (Disconnected by services)
4229 2013-03-12 05:16:45 Maged_ has joined
4230 2013-03-12 05:17:02 Maged_ is now known as Maged
4231 2013-03-12 05:17:03 <phantomcircuit> huh
4232 2013-03-12 05:17:09 <kanoi> Eleuthria - they broke your 5 in a row :)
4233 2013-03-12 05:17:12 <phantomcircuit> all the peers are 0.7.1 or 0.6.2
4234 2013-03-12 05:17:14 <phantomcircuit> weird
4235 2013-03-12 05:17:17 <Eleuthria> kanoi:  I know T_T
4236 2013-03-12 05:17:21 <RoboTeddy> Eleuthria: have we checked to see if 50btc contributed any of the blocks to the 0.8 fork? if not it decreases the likelihood they were ever on 0.8
4237 2013-03-12 05:17:24 na8flush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4238 2013-03-12 05:17:24 <Eleuthria> My 32% attack has failed me
4239 2013-03-12 05:17:28 <phantomcircuit> i guess everybody on 0.8 paniced and closed their client
4240 2013-03-12 05:17:33 linguinho has joined
4241 2013-03-12 05:17:49 <Eleuthria> I don't think 0.8 was that widely adopted yet
4242 2013-03-12 05:17:53 <gmatteson_> I am interested in created an Exchange for BTC that is on par with the quality that Etrade provides for regular markets. I have not work with any BC programming before so this part is new to me. I am in the research phase right now. I am looking to work with an experienced developer to bring this idea to fruition. I would manage the project and bring in the necessary talent for the web developers to work on integrati
4243 2013-03-12 05:17:54 <warren> huh weird, my 0.8 client is on the 0.7 block too
4244 2013-03-12 05:17:56 <Eleuthria> Outside of pools due to how much faster it was
4245 2013-03-12 05:18:09 <PatrikR> phantomcircuit: how do you check peer versions?
4246 2013-03-12 05:18:18 <DrGuns4Hands> I just dropped off of Eligius for some reason server hiccup?
4247 2013-03-12 05:18:19 laubzega has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4248 2013-03-12 05:18:27 <phantomcircuit> PatrikR, i looked at debug.log
4249 2013-03-12 05:18:29 Shaded has quit (Quit: Shaded)
4250 2013-03-12 05:18:35 <phantomcircuit> gmatteson_, legally? what jurisdiction?
4251 2013-03-12 05:18:49 <phantomcircuit> under what legal reasoning?
4252 2013-03-12 05:18:54 <randy-waterhouse> it is like the humans collaborated to prevent levelDB from taking over bitcoin protocol from BDB
4253 2013-03-12 05:18:55 <anachron> FWIW my bitcoin-qt 0.8 client rmeinas at 225453
4254 2013-03-12 05:18:57 <phantomcircuit> what law firm has signed off on that?
4255 2013-03-12 05:18:59 <anachron> remains.
4256 2013-03-12 05:19:01 AndChat567216 has joined
4257 2013-03-12 05:19:01 <phantomcircuit> i think you get the idea
4258 2013-03-12 05:19:08 <epylar> guys i have this great idea guys
4259 2013-03-12 05:19:11 xempew has quit (Quit: xempew)
4260 2013-03-12 05:19:14 <epylar> a bitcoin exchange.  all you have to do is write it for me.
4261 2013-03-12 05:19:20 <satrina> sigh
4262 2013-03-12 05:19:26 uubu has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
4263 2013-03-12 05:19:35 <phantomcircuit> epylar, to be fair that is actually the easy part :|
4264 2013-03-12 05:19:45 <MK`> hmmm https://blockchain.info/en/orphaned-blocks
4265 2013-03-12 05:19:53 MemoryDealers has joined
4266 2013-03-12 05:19:58 <satrina> epylar: i have a few ideas that would make bitcoin be "the shining star" of 2013 all around the world and make sure that nobody ever breaks out the silkroad argument again
4267 2013-03-12 05:20:07 <satrina> the problem is, its expensive as f***
4268 2013-03-12 05:20:19 <anachron> My client just picked up 225454, not posted to blockchain.info yet.
4269 2013-03-12 05:20:24 <topace_> 225454 was just found :(
4270 2013-03-12 05:20:28 <petertodd> yup
4271 2013-03-12 05:20:29 <RoboTeddy> 50btc contributed http://blockchain.info/block-index/357971/00000000000000757de9173ee2f01c9f957c8aa3b4f71b901b0fa19683ab1fa1 , which must mean they were (at least partially) on 0.8 at some point I believe
4272 2013-03-12 05:20:40 <TradeFortress> ouch
4273 2013-03-12 05:20:40 <helo> hint: pass around the collection plate
4274 2013-03-12 05:20:43 ergophobe has joined
4275 2013-03-12 05:20:46 <samurai1200> whoa really, 0 btc sent?
4276 2013-03-12 05:20:55 <samurai1200> so the entire network is completely and perfectly aware?
4277 2013-03-12 05:20:57 <lianj> samurai1200: no, just a displaying bug
4278 2013-03-12 05:21:03 <samurai1200> ah
4279 2013-03-12 05:21:10 <phantomcircuit> epylar, case in point http://1.account-group.metaexch.com:8080/
4280 2013-03-12 05:21:24 <lianj> samurai1200: this page was always buggy in that regard
4281 2013-03-12 05:21:31 <epylar> satrina: like what?
4282 2013-03-12 05:21:46 <samurai1200> never had to look at that page before today haha
4283 2013-03-12 05:21:50 Aaron_TangCryp is now known as Aaron_Away
4284 2013-03-12 05:21:52 <user11> i dont see transactions in 0.7 chain that i credited at 0.8 :<
4285 2013-03-12 05:21:54 <PatrikR> uh, 454 found by BTC Guild according to blockchain.info
4286 2013-03-12 05:22:07 rvagg has left ("Leaving")
4287 2013-03-12 05:22:15 <Eleuthria> what the
4288 2013-03-12 05:22:15 <samurai1200> blegh
4289 2013-03-12 05:22:25 <satrina> epylar: a "private equity" exchange, as in any uk ltd or american llc can get listed to allocate capital for buisness.
4290 2013-03-12 05:22:31 sawtooth has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
4291 2013-03-12 05:22:37 <Eleuthria> how the hell...
4292 2013-03-12 05:22:38 staphn has quit (Quit: .)
4293 2013-03-12 05:22:48 coolsa__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
4294 2013-03-12 05:22:49 <anachron> ruh roh
4295 2013-03-12 05:22:55 <PatrikR> or rather, "relayed by".
4296 2013-03-12 05:22:55 <satrina> the problem is jurisdiction, which is why i said setting it up is expensive as f***
4297 2013-03-12 05:23:04 <Ry4an> gmatteson_: http://www.humbledmba.com/please-please-please-stop-asking-how-to-find <-- not that you were doing that, but just showing you how "I need someone to code my idea" very rarely works.
4298 2013-03-12 05:23:07 <Eleuthria> No, that was a guild block
4299 2013-03-12 05:23:12 <Eleuthria> Trying to find out what server that was
4300 2013-03-12 05:23:17 xjrn has joined
4301 2013-03-12 05:23:20 <samurai1200> hey what determines an orphan vs main chain? version number?
4302 2013-03-12 05:23:21 <epylar> satrina: government and legal fees?
4303 2013-03-12 05:23:24 <Eleuthria> Shoot
4304 2013-03-12 05:23:27 <xfaust> crap
4305 2013-03-12 05:23:28 <Eleuthria> merged mining server
4306 2013-03-12 05:23:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4307 2013-03-12 05:23:43 <satrina> epylar: mainly getting in the legal proceedings for setting up a stock exchange
4308 2013-03-12 05:23:47 <satrina> :P
4309 2013-03-12 05:23:47 <PatrikR> samurai1200: chain length
4310 2013-03-12 05:23:51 <Eleuthria> That server is now offline.
4311 2013-03-12 05:23:55 <jzig> too bad the mining pools cant jut git merge the chains
4312 2013-03-12 05:23:58 <[269]gbg> 447
4313 2013-03-12 05:24:11 <B0g4r7> new good block
4314 2013-03-12 05:24:13 <Eleuthria> See, Guild made up for adding to the bad chain
4315 2013-03-12 05:24:16 wizkid057 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4316 2013-03-12 05:24:16 i2pRelay has joined
4317 2013-03-12 05:24:16 <Eleuthria> by making a good one ;p
4318 2013-03-12 05:24:20 <satrina> of any kind for that matter, and if that project would be done right we would have established clear juristicion in at least 1 or 2 countries for bitcoin. Hence the high expense
4319 2013-03-12 05:24:27 <epylar> jzig: the chains shouldn't be merged, even if it were possible.. there would be massive double spending.
4320 2013-03-12 05:24:41 Dayofswords has joined
4321 2013-03-12 05:24:44 Guest47610 has joined
4322 2013-03-12 05:24:48 <samurai1200> PatrikR, so does that mean that for some infinitesimal amount of time, there are 2 main chains?
4323 2013-03-12 05:25:06 <EvilPete> besides, if my luck with non-trivial git merges is any indication.. git merging a blockchain would be .. bad.
4324 2013-03-12 05:25:09 <[269]gbg> http://blockchain.info/blocks
4325 2013-03-12 05:25:11 <jzig> epylar: i guess i was implying merging the good transactions without the double spends
4326 2013-03-12 05:25:16 criptoe has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4327 2013-03-12 05:25:24 <EvilPete> aside from tne usual concerns of course
4328 2013-03-12 05:25:29 wizkid057 has joined
4329 2013-03-12 05:25:31 <jzig> since that is whats going to happen anyway right
4330 2013-03-12 05:25:32 <epylar> jzig: that's not an issue.
4331 2013-03-12 05:25:33 <PatrikR> samurai1200: no, different nodes just disagree on which fork is the main
4332 2013-03-12 05:25:44 <randy-waterhouse> 0.8 just got another one
4333 2013-03-12 05:25:50 <RoboTeddy> samurai1200: it won't be an infinitesimal amount of time -- the 0.7 and 0.8 chains will be the same length for maybe ~ 20 minutes or so
4334 2013-03-12 05:26:07 <samurai1200> oh true, while they are on the same number
4335 2013-03-12 05:26:15 <samurai1200> so how does blockchain.info decide who is main?
4336 2013-03-12 05:26:18 <satrina> i think today will be remembered as the "battle of chains"
4337 2013-03-12 05:26:19 <Eleuthria> 8 blocks til 0.7 replaces 0.8 chain
4338 2013-03-12 05:26:22 <user11> it is hard to double spent now?
4339 2013-03-12 05:26:28 <a_meteorite> satrina: the longest chain I believe
4340 2013-03-12 05:26:33 <RoboTeddy> samurai1200: blockchain.info goes based off which chain is longest I think
4341 2013-03-12 05:26:36 <gmaxwell> user11: generally, except when it isn't.
4342 2013-03-12 05:26:40 <epylar> if the two chains are equal, there is no longest chain.
4343 2013-03-12 05:26:49 xempew has joined
4344 2013-03-12 05:26:49 <gmaxwell> user11: if by double spend you mean make one someone will actually accept.
4345 2013-03-12 05:26:50 <samurai1200> hmm
4346 2013-03-12 05:26:50 <epylar> and hence no valid chain?
4347 2013-03-12 05:26:59 <BlackPrapor> Is there a web site, where I could see how much hasing power is on orphaned chain and on the main chain?
4348 2013-03-12 05:27:02 brunner has joined
4349 2013-03-12 05:27:06 <gmaxwell> epylar: when two are equal the situation is ambigous, nodes prefer the first they heard about.
4350 2013-03-12 05:27:12 <Eleuthria> BlackPrapor:  You could make an estimate, but it'd be highly inaccurate
4351 2013-03-12 05:27:13 <epylar> ah, ok
4352 2013-03-12 05:27:14 <gmaxwell> epylar: the next block then decides the tie.
4353 2013-03-12 05:27:16 <user11> i am accept, and i dont see transactions that i accept in 0.7 chain :<
4354 2013-03-12 05:27:27 <Eleuthria> It's impossible to get an accurate hash rate estimate in this short of a time frame
4355 2013-03-12 05:27:40 <theymos> epylar: That's not an terribly unusual situation. If two blocks are generated at nearly the same time, you'll have two chains with equal work.
4356 2013-03-12 05:27:41 <gmaxwell> user11: how are you checking the 0.7 chain?
4357 2013-03-12 05:27:49 <MK`> do you guys need help? I can always swith over to btc mining for a little while.
4358 2013-03-12 05:27:50 gritcoin has joined
4359 2013-03-12 05:27:52 <gdoteoff> User11 if you spent in the .8 chain and it isn't yet confirmed in the shorter chain you could double spend, as I understand it
4360 2013-03-12 05:27:53 <user11> blockchain & coinbase
4361 2013-03-12 05:27:55 <B0g4r7> The transactions may not have been included yet.
4362 2013-03-12 05:27:58 <[269]gbg> http://blockchain.info/blocks
4363 2013-03-12 05:28:08 bernie has joined
4364 2013-03-12 05:28:09 aethero has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
4365 2013-03-12 05:28:17 Przemo has joined
4366 2013-03-12 05:28:23 <TradeFortress> what version is gribble on?
4367 2013-03-12 05:28:25 <samurai1200> im sure there are shitloads of double spending attempts going on
4368 2013-03-12 05:28:33 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4369 2013-03-12 05:28:38 <Eleuthria> Double spending is easier, but not trivial right now
4370 2013-03-12 05:28:44 o8gf5 has joined
4371 2013-03-12 05:28:45 <RoboTeddy> TradeFortress: gribble is on the 0.8 I believe; at least, he responded with the tip block number of 0.8 when asked a few minutes ago
4372 2013-03-12 05:28:53 <user11> 225430 35fd506aead16feeff9b768c9dfd629b1b3eecff4bb144d4d004d063c3a3321a 1A8iFquFZ8ac9kb1hzgNdLaTFjvYXe8EFv 0.103596 BTC from 0.8 chain, i credited it but i dont see this transaction in 0.8
4373 2013-03-12 05:28:54 <Eleuthria> The transactions still broadcast to both chains.
4374 2013-03-12 05:28:56 <user11> 0.8*
4375 2013-03-12 05:28:59 <user11> 0.7*
4376 2013-03-12 05:29:04 <B0g4r7> ;;bc,blocks
4377 2013-03-12 05:29:05 <gribble> 225447
4378 2013-03-12 05:29:05 <phantomcircuit> Eleuthria, you need to convince a miner to mine your double spend (not gonna happen)
4379 2013-03-12 05:29:08 <epylar> Yes, the NSA only has to turn on half of its secret video cards to double spend now.
4380 2013-03-12 05:29:12 <phantomcircuit> or mine a block yourself (lol right)
4381 2013-03-12 05:29:28 <BlackPrapor> What happens if the "wrong" chain takes over?
4382 2013-03-12 05:29:30 <phantomcircuit> notice however i say ONE block
4383 2013-03-12 05:29:35 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: wrong?
4384 2013-03-12 05:29:37 <samurai1200> blegh
4385 2013-03-12 05:29:44 <Bowjob653> bitcoin dies tonight
4386 2013-03-12 05:29:45 ali_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4387 2013-03-12 05:29:45 <kanoi> yep ignoring that it can be statistical, the hash rate at the moment on 0.7 is about lahf
4388 2013-03-12 05:29:46 <samurai1200> one day i will understand bitcoin
4389 2013-03-12 05:29:52 <kanoi> half
4390 2013-03-12 05:29:55 <B0g4r7> BlackPrapor: the everyone running < 0.8 stays broken.
4391 2013-03-12 05:30:00 <gmaxwell> Bowjob653: This is not the time or place for whatever you're doing.
4392 2013-03-12 05:30:06 <TradeFortress> BlackPrapor, it is already "taking over"
4393 2013-03-12 05:30:08 <anachron> I hope none of this threatens a v0.8 transaction (a send) I made at 02:20UTC 3/12/2013.
4394 2013-03-12 05:30:19 <Eleuthria> 225448
4395 2013-03-12 05:30:20 <TradeFortress> anachron, don't worry it won't affect it
4396 2013-03-12 05:30:24 <samurai1200> yay
4397 2013-03-12 05:30:27 <gmaxwell> anachron: unlikely to.
4398 2013-03-12 05:30:30 <Eleuthria> 7 to go
4399 2013-03-12 05:30:34 <BlackPrapor> gmaxwell: well, we rolled back to 0.7, in that case those mining on 0.8 are wrong, i.e. forking, right?
4400 2013-03-12 05:30:36 <anachron> I have 8 confirms on it FWIW.
4401 2013-03-12 05:30:41 tommygunner has joined
4402 2013-03-12 05:30:58 <samurai1200> BlackPrapor: there's no 'wrong' chain
4403 2013-03-12 05:31:02 bitcoin-dev359 has joined
4404 2013-03-12 05:31:08 <warren> I suppose folks will code early warning systems for this sort of thing.
4405 2013-03-12 05:31:09 <jrmithdobbs> only the longest
4406 2013-03-12 05:31:10 <samurai1200> Just one that we can't afford to be wrong
4407 2013-03-12 05:31:17 laubzega has joined
4408 2013-03-12 05:31:19 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: "well, we rolled back to 0.7" who is we?
4409 2013-03-12 05:31:26 <BlackPrapor> samurai1200: ok, I got it, thanks. Its just those tx's won't be counted
4410 2013-03-12 05:31:28 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4411 2013-03-12 05:31:28 <PatrikR> 449
4412 2013-03-12 05:31:33 <denis> \o/
4413 2013-03-12 05:31:38 <jrmithdobbs> BlackPrapor: most of the txns are on both chains
4414 2013-03-12 05:31:40 <gmaxwell> BlackPrapor: more hashpower has moved to the "0.7" chain, so it will eventually overtake and history will be rewritten.
4415 2013-03-12 05:31:41 <samurai1200> warren: is there a way to code early warning for something like this?
4416 2013-03-12 05:31:43 <Eleuthria> Go Guild Go!
4417 2013-03-12 05:31:45 <Eleuthria> Fix this fork!
4418 2013-03-12 05:31:59 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,block
4419 2013-03-12 05:31:59 <gribble> Error: "bc,block" is not a valid command.
4420 2013-03-12 05:32:01 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,blocks
4421 2013-03-12 05:32:01 <gribble> 225449
4422 2013-03-12 05:32:05 i2pRelay has joined
4423 2013-03-12 05:32:05 stretchwarren has joined
4424 2013-03-12 05:32:05 <BlackPrapor> gmaxwell: yeah, I got it now, thanks for the explanation =)
4425 2013-03-12 05:32:06 <gmaxwell> We are like GIT AIRLINES in http://changelog.complete.org/archives/698-if-version-control-systems-were-airlines
4426 2013-03-12 05:32:21 <phantomcircuit> samurai1200, there is actually an early warning if you're checking getinfo
4427 2013-03-12 05:32:22 <jrmithdobbs> time to find out if gribble or whatever back him knows how to reorg
4428 2013-03-12 05:32:22 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
4429 2013-03-12 05:32:25 <phantomcircuit> it has an "error" parameter
4430 2013-03-12 05:32:28 <epylar> haha, RCS
4431 2013-03-12 05:32:31 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: will do, added to my block-tester todo list
4432 2013-03-12 05:32:31 <randy-waterhouse> who knew we would be cheering on a berkeley DB based chain??
4433 2013-03-12 05:32:33 <epylar> i remember that
4434 2013-03-12 05:32:33 <phantomcircuit> btw intersango detected that and killed bitcoind
4435 2013-03-12 05:32:35 <gmaxwell> "Occasionally, passengers on Git airlines build an airplane that appears to go into a tailspin. When that happens, they simply assemble a tool that lets them go back in time and change history so that it doesn’t crash, although it is rumored that if you are a member of the public watching this happen from the ground, it will lead to seizures."
4436 2013-03-12 05:32:35 <phantomcircuit> so
4437 2013-03-12 05:32:35 scintill has joined
4438 2013-03-12 05:32:37 <randy-waterhouse> life is full of ironies
4439 2013-03-12 05:32:38 <phantomcircuit> cool that works
4440 2013-03-12 05:32:50 <samurai1200> phantomcircuit, that would have detected the large block for 0.7?
4441 2013-03-12 05:33:04 <phantomcircuit> yeah
4442 2013-03-12 05:33:07 alkeyu has quit ()
4443 2013-03-12 05:33:12 <phantomcircuit> it shows up as a bdb error in "errors"
4444 2013-03-12 05:33:14 <BlackPrapor> gmaxwell: lol, that explains a lot
4445 2013-03-12 05:33:18 <epylar> how long does it take for clients to "prune" the losing chain from their disks?
4446 2013-03-12 05:33:21 <samurai1200> ah, but if nobody is watching....
4447 2013-03-12 05:33:23 <gmaxwell> samurai1200: it's probably confusing to call it "large" it was, but it wasn't specifically the size that broke it. (though large is likely a prereq)
4448 2013-03-12 05:33:34 tarkus has joined
4449 2013-03-12 05:33:36 bitcoin-dev902 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4450 2013-03-12 05:33:39 <samurai1200> gmaxwell, just number of transactions?
4451 2013-03-12 05:33:47 <samurai1200> whats the specific 'thing' that did it in for 0.7?
4452 2013-03-12 05:33:54 <B0g4r7> I don't think it;'s known yet.
4453 2013-03-12 05:34:06 <gmaxwell> samurai1200: no, more subtle than that. Very likely the sum of inputs created and outputs created. But it's a bit too early to say for sure.
4454 2013-03-12 05:34:11 <samurai1200> ah
4455 2013-03-12 05:34:13 <jrmithdobbs> samurai1200: surpassed a lock limit in brb
4456 2013-03-12 05:34:16 <jrmithdobbs> bdb
4457 2013-03-12 05:34:20 DrGuns4Hands has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4458 2013-03-12 05:34:26 <samurai1200> damn. time to do some reading.
4459 2013-03-12 05:34:27 <jrmithdobbs> is what happened, the exact limits aren't yet known
4460 2013-03-12 05:34:27 mavric has quit ()
4461 2013-03-12 05:34:33 <Diablo-D3> [01:32:21] <gmaxwell> "Occasionally, passengers on Git airlines build an airplane that appears to go into a tailspin. When that happens, they simply assemble a tool that lets them go back in time and change history so that it doesn’t crash, although it is rumored that if you are a member of the public watching this happen from the ground, it will lead to seizures."
4462 2013-03-12 05:34:36 <Diablo-D3> lol.
4463 2013-03-12 05:35:16 andytoshi has joined
4464 2013-03-12 05:35:20 <andytoshi> bitcoin-wizards
4465 2013-03-12 05:35:24 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4466 2013-03-12 05:35:44 rowit has joined
4467 2013-03-12 05:35:51 <COGSMITH> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1a4prx/i_know_hes_retired_but_duty_calls
4468 2013-03-12 05:35:54 rcorreia has joined
4469 2013-03-12 05:35:56 Skizziks has joined
4470 2013-03-12 05:36:31 <samurai1200> blergh
4471 2013-03-12 05:36:36 <samurai1200> intro to databases was not enough
4472 2013-03-12 05:36:42 <samurai1200> for my mindgrapes
4473 2013-03-12 05:36:46 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: unless you want it more urgently?
4474 2013-03-12 05:37:25 davout has joined
4475 2013-03-12 05:37:30 <randy-waterhouse> so it looks like 548 has time stamp 5.33 and 549 has timestamp 5.30, which is 3 minutes prior .... what is the time limit on "earlier" blocks?
4476 2013-03-12 05:37:33 Ranvier has joined
4477 2013-03-12 05:37:35 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: It would be useful in getting a 0.8.1 out. Don't kill yourself over it, but it would be nice to have an independant tool to test the fix once we have it.
4478 2013-03-12 05:38:02 <[269]gbg> 449?
4479 2013-03-12 05:38:07 SwedFTP has joined
4480 2013-03-12 05:38:11 <[269]gbg> oh
4481 2013-03-12 05:38:12 <randy-waterhouse> right sorry 449
4482 2013-03-12 05:38:14 grau has joined
4483 2013-03-12 05:38:19 <randy-waterhouse> and 448
4484 2013-03-12 05:38:21 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: na, Im on break (though mostly doing big school projects as a result :( ) so I can whip something up
4485 2013-03-12 05:38:27 <ligar> gmaxwell: write a script to mass move tranactions 20000+ onn one block on the test chain
4486 2013-03-12 05:38:53 <gmaxwell> ligar: we have done that.
4487 2013-03-12 05:39:02 <gmaxwell> lots of transactions isn't enough.
4488 2013-03-12 05:39:29 <ligar> then good luck on weird bug :|
4489 2013-03-12 05:39:33 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4490 2013-03-12 05:39:47 <samurai1200> so if someone will humor me
4491 2013-03-12 05:39:52 <samurai1200> when speaking of locks
4492 2013-03-12 05:39:57 <epylar> can you trace through the code at a low level using the actual block that caused the problem?
4493 2013-03-12 05:40:13 i2pRelay has joined
4494 2013-03-12 05:40:23 <samurai1200> it means a data item in the database,
4495 2013-03-12 05:40:35 cartermc24 has joined
4496 2013-03-12 05:40:38 <samurai1200> and a lock limit is how many locks can be placed on data items at once?
4497 2013-03-12 05:40:44 <EvilPete> bdb has some unusual ideas about tuning its lock resources..
4498 2013-03-12 05:40:49 <gdoteoff>  /j #bdb
4499 2013-03-12 05:40:59 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
4500 2013-03-12 05:41:05 hkfhskjd has joined
4501 2013-03-12 05:41:10 <nanotube> 5 blocks from even.
4502 2013-03-12 05:41:11 lb4956 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4503 2013-03-12 05:41:24 sawtooth has joined
4504 2013-03-12 05:42:16 ryan-c has joined
4505 2013-03-12 05:42:20 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: (I havent been paying much attention to the whole bug...) can I cheat and just do maximum number of outputs and have like 1 input?
4506 2013-03-12 05:42:34 <GMP> epylar: i think the issue can be reproduced by loading block with -loadblock=blk0004.dat, unfortunately, it takes 40 min to rebuild first 6GB of bdb database
4507 2013-03-12 05:42:37 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I do not believe you can.
4508 2013-03-12 05:42:42 <BlueMatt> awww, ok
4509 2013-03-12 05:42:51 <gmaxwell> The triggering block had like 4000 inputs and 5000 outputs.
4510 2013-03-12 05:43:06 <BlueMatt> ok, well just means one additional tx
4511 2013-03-12 05:43:09 <[269]gbg> when it goes even, then all miners will contribute to the 'right' chain, both .7 and .8 clients?
4512 2013-03-12 05:43:18 <gmaxwell> [269]gbg: yes.
4513 2013-03-12 05:43:23 zodiac1233_ has quit ()
4514 2013-03-12 05:43:27 <gmaxwell> well, when it gets once past at least.
4515 2013-03-12 05:43:39 <gmaxwell> at even they will contribute to the valid chain they heard first.
4516 2013-03-12 05:43:50 <jrmithdobbs> and we get to test non-satoshi client's reorg code ;p
4517 2013-03-12 05:43:54 <sebicas> 225450
4518 2013-03-12 05:43:55 <jrmithdobbs> should be interesting
4519 2013-03-12 05:43:56 <EvilPete> [269]gbg: and once it gets past, the autopilot miners that are running 0.8 will reorg and switch over
4520 2013-03-12 05:43:58 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: shit...
4521 2013-03-12 05:44:00 <oneman> bitcoin.flags |= O_NONBLOCK;
4522 2013-03-12 05:44:07 <BlueMatt> how many blocks deep is it gonna be?
4523 2013-03-12 05:44:20 <samurai1200> but we could potentially re-fork from the same problem, no?
4524 2013-03-12 05:44:26 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: a bunch
4525 2013-03-12 05:44:27 <samurai1200> nothin stopping that
4526 2013-03-12 05:44:29 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: good mornin ;p
4527 2013-03-12 05:44:31 <Eleuthria> another guild block, 225450
4528 2013-03-12 05:44:42 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,blocks
4529 2013-03-12 05:44:43 <gribble> 225450
4530 2013-03-12 05:44:55 <jrmithdobbs> interesting
4531 2013-03-12 05:45:00 <gmaxwell> samurai1200: no, not with a supermajority hashpower on 0.7 .. there might be a 1/2 block fork but short forks happen all the time.
4532 2013-03-12 05:45:04 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: yea...Ive been working on unrelated things all day...
4533 2013-03-12 05:45:07 <gmaxwell> about 1% of blocks get forked.
4534 2013-03-12 05:45:14 <samurai1200> ah so the plan is to keep people on 0.7
4535 2013-03-12 05:45:19 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: >/< 50  blocks?
4536 2013-03-12 05:45:23 <samurai1200> to avoid this fork poss for the time being
4537 2013-03-12 05:45:29 <gmaxwell> samurai1200: also, even with 0.8 miners, it appears the default settings can not produce a trigger block.
4538 2013-03-12 05:45:38 <samurai1200> wow
4539 2013-03-12 05:45:41 <samurai1200> so
4540 2013-03-12 05:45:51 Joric has quit ()
4541 2013-03-12 05:45:54 <DoomDumas> fun facts - slush = first pool ever, slush found the "halving block", slush found the block causing this "hard-fork" !  (correct me if im wrong)  :)
4542 2013-03-12 05:45:54 <samurai1200> someone with modded bitcoin forced this?
4543 2013-03-12 05:46:00 <gmaxwell> the miner that produced the trigger block turned the target blocksize from the default 250 to 1000.
4544 2013-03-12 05:46:00 <samurai1200> i mean, unknowingly
4545 2013-03-12 05:46:04 <[269]gbg> so when will the advice be to mine on .8?
4546 2013-03-12 05:46:07 <samurai1200> AH
4547 2013-03-12 05:46:17 <slush> DoomDumas: correct :)
4548 2013-03-12 05:46:17 <samurai1200> thats... nasty
4549 2013-03-12 05:46:21 SwedFTP has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
4550 2013-03-12 05:46:29 perezd has quit (Quit: perezd)
4551 2013-03-12 05:46:35 <gmaxwell> [269]gbg: never. There will be advice to mine on 0.8.1 once its out.
4552 2013-03-12 05:46:46 <Eleuthria> DoomDumas:  He may have found the halving block, but Guild claimed the last 50BTC block :P
4553 2013-03-12 05:46:56 <gmaxwell> though mining on 0.8 will likely not be too horrible once the reorg happens, so long as you haven't upped your blocksize limit.
4554 2013-03-12 05:47:00 <slush> samurai1200: stock bitcoind 0.8
4555 2013-03-12 05:47:04 <TradeFortress> samurai1200, nope, bitcoind bug
4556 2013-03-12 05:47:14 <Eleuthria> I'll gladly take the extra 25 BTC over being the first one to get a reduced reward, hehe
4557 2013-03-12 05:47:19 <[269]gbg> so when .8.1 is out, all pools should move to .8.1?
4558 2013-03-12 05:47:21 SwedFTP has joined
4559 2013-03-12 05:47:23 xempew has quit (Quit: xempew)
4560 2013-03-12 05:47:27 <samurai1200> bitcoind was what expanded max block size?
4561 2013-03-12 05:47:31 pera has quit (Quit: leaving)
4562 2013-03-12 05:47:32 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4563 2013-03-12 05:47:36 <samurai1200> 0.8 that is
4564 2013-03-12 05:47:43 <jrmithdobbs> samurai1200: no
4565 2013-03-12 05:47:43 Skizziks has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4566 2013-03-12 05:47:50 <DoomDumas> Lucky slush !  I mine on your pool since the begining, and will always do :)
4567 2013-03-12 05:47:59 <LightRider> So should all major fundamental things, even implementation changes, be using Gavin's forking rules?
4568 2013-03-12 05:48:03 i2pRelay has joined
4569 2013-03-12 05:48:06 <slush> :)
4570 2013-03-12 05:48:13 <gmaxwell> samurai1200: the _maximum size_ wasn't expanded.
4571 2013-03-12 05:48:22 hi has joined
4572 2013-03-12 05:48:38 <MK`> Yeah, I recommended a friend to your pool yesterday slush
4573 2013-03-12 05:48:42 <hi> ( <> . . <> )
4574 2013-03-12 05:48:47 hi is now known as Guest56517
4575 2013-03-12 05:48:49 <MK`> he was not amused when I messaged him an hour ago telling him to stop mining lol
4576 2013-03-12 05:48:58 <gmaxwell> samurai1200: there is a target blocksize. It defaults to 250k. With txn slow last week due to SD being 90+% of all blocks, Gavin and Mike went around and nagged pools to increase their target sizes.. so its not surprising that someone was running with a big setting. The target size is just a commandline option.
4577 2013-03-12 05:49:01 <LightRider> Just a few days ago, Gavin was advocating everyone jump on 0.8 on the foundation blog.
4578 2013-03-12 05:49:10 Guest56517 has quit (Client Quit)
4579 2013-03-12 05:49:14 <slush> MK`: there wasn't a reason to stop mining
4580 2013-03-12 05:49:24 <slush> it wasn't thing on miner side, just bitcoind update
4581 2013-03-12 05:49:30 <MK`> ah, if he's on your pool then all is well?
4582 2013-03-12 05:49:31 <gmaxwell> Arguably any setting over 500 is exposing undertested parts of bitcoin, because prior to 0.7.x (?) the target size was hard coded at 500.
4583 2013-03-12 05:49:36 <samurai1200> gmaxwell: AH thats the puzzle piece i was missing. i get it now.
4584 2013-03-12 05:49:59 <samurai1200> in retrospect we should have just dealt with the SDice traffic for a while?
4585 2013-03-12 05:50:22 <samurai1200> or was the fork the only thing to get us to look at the issue
4586 2013-03-12 05:50:22 <SomeoneWeird> do we know what caused he chain to fork?
4587 2013-03-12 05:50:24 bitcoin-dev150 has joined
4588 2013-03-12 05:50:24 <jrmithdobbs> samurai1200: should have just not let that be user adjustable yet, basically
4589 2013-03-12 05:50:30 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: can I cheat and make all the scriptPubKeys being spent OP_TRUE instead of requiring checksigs?
4590 2013-03-12 05:50:31 <gmaxwell> samurai1200: this issue would have existed either way. Though maybe we would have found it on testnet eventually or with the next round of blocktester improvements.
4591 2013-03-12 05:50:36 <EvilPete> basically, the slush pool generated a larger block (within protocol limits) and the old 0.7 bitcoind stuff tripped over its bdb usage and dropped it, causing the fork.
4592 2013-03-12 05:50:42 <TradeFortress> jrmithdobbs, everything is user adjustable
4593 2013-03-12 05:50:46 rowit has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
4594 2013-03-12 05:50:48 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I think thats fine.
4595 2013-03-12 05:50:55 <jrmithdobbs> TradeFortress: yes but this most likely got triggered on accident
4596 2013-03-12 05:51:03 <DoomDumas> Eleuthria :  :)  indeed !
4597 2013-03-12 05:51:10 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea, make it as big as possible, and break it against 0.7.2.
4598 2013-03-12 05:51:41 ben-abuya has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
4599 2013-03-12 05:51:52 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ok, Ill whip up a test build and see what I can break
4600 2013-03-12 05:51:59 <EvilPete> Its still not clear exactly what the <= 0.7 limits are, no?  Its not a block size issue, but rather a size + complexity issue?
4601 2013-03-12 05:51:59 <samurai1200> oh so 072 actually caught the exception
4602 2013-03-12 05:52:16 <samurai1200> EvilPete: AFAIK they dont know yet
4603 2013-03-12 05:52:29 <jrmithdobbs> EvilPete: correct.
4604 2013-03-12 05:52:47 <samurai1200> love this nitty gritty low level shit
4605 2013-03-12 05:52:47 loveliness has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4606 2013-03-12 05:52:55 <samurai1200> what makes things work is not interesting -- what breaks things is
4607 2013-03-12 05:53:04 <EvilPete> We used to hit bdb commit lock issues with svn servers before giving up and going to fsfs
4608 2013-03-12 05:53:25 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4609 2013-03-12 05:53:29 <jrmithdobbs> EvilPete: pfft
4610 2013-03-12 05:53:48 <epylar> https://coinbase.com/network/blocks is kind of interesting
4611 2013-03-12 05:53:53 jaeyjay has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4612 2013-03-12 05:53:59 <gagecolton> wow deja vu
4613 2013-03-12 05:54:24 <EvilPete> meanwhile the trolls on bitcointalk are in foaming at the mouths right now..
4614 2013-03-12 05:54:33 <davout> is someone here a global mod on bitcointalk? i need some help asap
4615 2013-03-12 05:55:07 <sawtooth> epylar: Also https://blockchain.info/blocks
4616 2013-03-12 05:55:27 <DoomDumas> EvilPete : LMAO !  who is paying those troll ?
4617 2013-03-12 05:55:34 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4618 2013-03-12 05:55:52 <epylar> sawtooth: ah, i like that one better
4619 2013-03-12 05:56:01 <enquirer3> what if we have a bot injecting mtgox prices into blockchain every 10 minutes (send a transaction between two known addresses, amount of satoshis = mtgox price in cents). Can we then use the bitcoin scripts to implement kind of futures contracts?
4620 2013-03-12 05:56:06 i2pRelay has joined
4621 2013-03-12 05:56:49 Lepton has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4622 2013-03-12 05:56:50 <cjd> enquirer3: your contract depends on the honesty of the bot
4623 2013-03-12 05:56:51 newbie has joined
4624 2013-03-12 05:57:06 <cjd> therefor you could just ask it directly
4625 2013-03-12 05:57:26 PasdNick has quit (Quit: leaving)
4626 2013-03-12 05:57:31 <EvilPete> DoomDumas: I deal with people like them every day.  it makes life interesting.  somehow giving somebody something for free creates an implicit obligation to keep them happy, as though you owe them for using your free product
4627 2013-03-12 05:57:35 grau has joined
4628 2013-03-12 05:57:51 <enquirer3> but is the script language powerful enough for that?
4629 2013-03-12 05:58:00 <jrmithdobbs> yes
4630 2013-03-12 05:58:16 <jrmithdobbs> if you convince someone to mine it
4631 2013-03-12 05:58:42 <guest892735> so are we going to get a big diff drop due to miners being on the wrong chain?
4632 2013-03-12 05:58:43 _joe has joined
4633 2013-03-12 05:58:50 dhc02 has joined
4634 2013-03-12 05:58:55 <MK`> hm, this isn't updated as quickly? https://blockchain.info/en/orphaned-blocks
4635 2013-03-12 05:58:56 Guest47610 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4636 2013-03-12 05:58:56 <enquirer3> they both should trust the bot, but not one another
4637 2013-03-12 05:59:01 hctib has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4638 2013-03-12 05:59:10 gritcoin has joined
4639 2013-03-12 05:59:11 <TradeFortress> guest892735, not now
4640 2013-03-12 05:59:22 <cjd> enquirer3: just have them connect to the bot and ask it the price
4641 2013-03-12 05:59:44 <cjd> using a block chain does not automatically create security
4642 2013-03-12 05:59:55 <B0g4r7> A very tiny dip.
4643 2013-03-12 06:00:02 <RoboTeddy> 225451 came out on 0.7 chain -- diff = 3 now
4644 2013-03-12 06:00:10 <RoboTeddy> BTC guild saving the day again
4645 2013-03-12 06:00:13 <Eleuthria> wow
4646 2013-03-12 06:00:28 <forkwatch> awesome
4647 2013-03-12 06:00:46 <keystroke> why is there an orphan branch in addition to main and side now on https://coinbase.com/network/blocks/ ?
4648 2013-03-12 06:00:46 blah has joined
4649 2013-03-12 06:01:03 newbie has quit (3!kvirc@cpe-66-65-120-151.nyc.res.rr.com|Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4650 2013-03-12 06:01:07 <samurai1200> i know we hate talking about it, but maybe that makes research more prudent -- what would we have done in the case of no pools? all solo mining or p2pool mining?
4651 2013-03-12 06:01:10 Atheros2 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
4652 2013-03-12 06:01:21 <lianj> keystroke: missed blocks and busy parsing
4653 2013-03-12 06:01:29 <TradeFortress> Bitcoind 0.8 crashes after ProcessBlock (height: 198687)
4654 2013-03-12 06:01:48 <enquirer3> you are missing the point, those are two people that don't know each other. Instead of relaying on the word: I swear I will pay you 100BTC in three months, just send that 100BTC with condition attached
4655 2013-03-12 06:01:50 <keystroke> lianj: sorry, busy parsing?
4656 2013-03-12 06:01:54 <TradeFortress> crashes as in exists
4657 2013-03-12 06:01:55 ben-abuya has joined
4658 2013-03-12 06:02:06 <cjd> TradeFortress: repeatable?
4659 2013-03-12 06:02:07 <TradeFortress> exits*
4660 2013-03-12 06:02:10 <lianj> parsing/verifing - just catching up
4661 2013-03-12 06:02:10 douzto has joined
4662 2013-03-12 06:02:13 <eklass> wouldn't you have to have accepted that 0.8 would have lived on and users on 0.7 would be forced to upgrade?
4663 2013-03-12 06:02:26 <epylar> this wouldn't have been a major problem with no pools.  people would not have switched to 0.8 as rapidly.
4664 2013-03-12 06:02:43 <Xenon481> guest892735: We are relatively close enough to a difficulty change and have spent enough time significantly above the difficulty that it is likely that even this temporary dip in effective hashing power will not bring the expected next difficulty below the current difficulty.
4665 2013-03-12 06:02:47 <midnightmagic> or configured a large blocksize.
4666 2013-03-12 06:02:59 <TradeFortress> cjd, it has being exiting for multiple times now
4667 2013-03-12 06:03:03 <RoboTeddy> epylar: that's not necessarily true -- the actual problem trigger (upping the txn count per block) could've happened after a lot of people upgraded
4668 2013-03-12 06:03:04 <TradeFortress> I'm trying to reproduce it agai
4669 2013-03-12 06:03:18 <cjd> TradeFortress: gdb ./bitcoind
4670 2013-03-12 06:03:20 <epylar> hmm, true
4671 2013-03-12 06:03:21 <samurai1200> yeah i dont buy that
4672 2013-03-12 06:03:27 <cjd> see if it can be trapped in the debugger
4673 2013-03-12 06:03:33 hawk_ has joined
4674 2013-03-12 06:03:34 <cjd> not that it will likely tell us much
4675 2013-03-12 06:03:35 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4676 2013-03-12 06:03:51 <Przemo> Can I ask you something? Are they lost some coins?
4677 2013-03-12 06:03:56 hawk_ is now known as Guest57646
4678 2013-03-12 06:03:58 <TradeFortress> cjd, OK, it's currently rescanning now
4679 2013-03-12 06:04:09 <cjd> Przemo: nobody lost any money from the fork
4680 2013-03-12 06:04:11 i2pRelay has joined
4681 2013-03-12 06:04:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hmm...fun I run java out of heap space running the test.....
4682 2013-03-12 06:04:25 asdffdsa has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4683 2013-03-12 06:04:26 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
4684 2013-03-12 06:04:26 <EvilPete> Przemo: no, nothing's lost. transactions are recorded in both chains.  the only people who lost were miners who didn't get rewards for mining on the wrong chain
4685 2013-03-12 06:04:38 <enquirer3> cjd: except of all the miners that mine on 0.8 now ..
4686 2013-03-12 06:04:42 <RoboTeddy> cjd: that's not quite true -- some pool operators and miners lost money giving payouts to people who found blocks on the chain that won't matter in the future
4687 2013-03-12 06:04:46 NilamDoc has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4688 2013-03-12 06:05:00 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: lol, thats not good!
4689 2013-03-12 06:05:08 <keystroke> 225452
4690 2013-03-12 06:05:12 <keystroke> diff is down to 2
4691 2013-03-12 06:05:18 <Eleuthria> yay slush
4692 2013-03-12 06:05:24 <cjd> enquirer3: RoboTeddy I know the details but what's important is that btc which people bought at an exchange with their paycheck from work is safe.
4693 2013-03-12 06:05:28 <forkwatch> the 0.8 client isn't saying the blockchain is forked anymore
4694 2013-03-12 06:05:31 <epylar> strong incentive to mine on the 'right' chain.
4695 2013-03-12 06:05:32 <Eleuthria> 3 blocks til chain re-org for 0.8 clients
4696 2013-03-12 06:05:34 <cjd> and that people understand that
4697 2013-03-12 06:05:37 <EvilPete> finally.. slush pool has been lucky for days and NOW it gets bad luck
4698 2013-03-12 06:05:37 <slush> Eleuthria: what?
4699 2013-03-12 06:05:44 <Eleuthria> slush:  You found 225452
4700 2013-03-12 06:06:03 <slush> i know
4701 2013-03-12 06:06:04 Guest47610 has joined
4702 2013-03-12 06:06:06 dc has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4703 2013-03-12 06:06:09 <slush> I was getting a bit nervous
4704 2013-03-12 06:06:10 <Eleuthria> was just saying 'yay' :P
4705 2013-03-12 06:06:16 <anachron> For those of us running v0.8 nodes, not mining, what can we expect to see in our clients at the over-take point?
4706 2013-03-12 06:06:24 <anachron> Anything out of the ordinary?
4707 2013-03-12 06:06:27 <slush> Eleuthria: that's exactly what my logs says when pool found block :P
4708 2013-03-12 06:06:29 douzto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4709 2013-03-12 06:06:30 <keystroke> why nervous slush?
4710 2013-03-12 06:06:41 * Eleuthria hides his SSH session into slush's server logs.
4711 2013-03-12 06:07:03 topace_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4712 2013-03-12 06:07:05 ibarrac has joined
4713 2013-03-12 06:07:39 <slush> keystroke: Pool was lucky as hell while mining on fork. Then I switched branches and nothing for hours
4714 2013-03-12 06:07:47 NASDAQEnema has left ()
4715 2013-03-12 06:07:48 <Eleuthria> Opposite for me
4716 2013-03-12 06:07:50 <TradeFortress> people who rent hashpower would have lost coins.
4717 2013-03-12 06:07:57 <keystroke> ahhh, why did you not shut it down when mining on the fork? or did you not see it right away?
4718 2013-03-12 06:08:29 SwedFTP2 has joined
4719 2013-03-12 06:08:32 <slush> keystroke: it was even before I noticed it. 7am here
4720 2013-03-12 06:08:39 random_ has joined
4721 2013-03-12 06:08:44 <DoomDumas> by my dirty napkin calulation, this event should not affect next diff change for more than 1% !
4722 2013-03-12 06:08:45 <Graet> started while i was asleep too
4723 2013-03-12 06:08:48 <forkwatch> 225453!
4724 2013-03-12 06:08:58 <nanotube> ;;bc,blocks
4725 2013-03-12 06:08:58 <gribble> 225453
4726 2013-03-12 06:09:01 <nanotube> ;;blocks
4727 2013-03-12 06:09:01 <gribble> 225454
4728 2013-03-12 06:09:01 MemoryDealers has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4729 2013-03-12 06:09:02 <Eleuthria> go guild go!
4730 2013-03-12 06:09:05 <nanotube> oo 1 more
4731 2013-03-12 06:09:11 <keystroke> awesome
4732 2013-03-12 06:09:11 <nanotube> well, 2 more til reorg
4733 2013-03-12 06:09:11 Sydna has joined
4734 2013-03-12 06:09:16 <Eleuthria> ^
4735 2013-03-12 06:09:32 coolfengyu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4736 2013-03-12 06:09:34 Frodo has joined
4737 2013-03-12 06:09:37 <num1> Is there anywhere that blocks which used to be valid are stored? If I wanted to look at all the forks that didn't become the real block chain, is there somewhere I could find them?
4738 2013-03-12 06:09:44 <epylar> main chain is finding blocks incredibly slowly
4739 2013-03-12 06:09:54 <Eleuthria> because nobody is on the "main chain" anymore
4740 2013-03-12 06:09:54 <EvilPete> Is reorg going to be interesitng in the logs? I've been watching double spend and orphan stuff scrolling past for ages
4741 2013-03-12 06:09:56 * cjd connects to lfnet to watch the alt-implementations drop when the reorg comes
4742 2013-03-12 06:10:00 <RoboTeddy> num1: yep: http://blockchain.info/blocks and http://blockchain.info/orphaned-blocks
4743 2013-03-12 06:10:01 <ThiagoCMC> where can I watch for the bitcoind reorgs? tail -f ~/.bitcoin/?.log
4744 2013-03-12 06:10:01 <Eleuthria> (virtually nobody)
4745 2013-03-12 06:10:15 <wizkid057> one more one more!
4746 2013-03-12 06:10:18 <num1> RoboTeddy, perfect. Thank you
4747 2013-03-12 06:10:22 <Eleuthria> 2 more 2 more.
4748 2013-03-12 06:10:29 <wizkid057> well, 1 more to tie
4749 2013-03-12 06:10:30 <wizkid057> :P
4750 2013-03-12 06:10:32 <EvilPete> ThiagoCMC: debug.log
4751 2013-03-12 06:10:38 <keystroke> so what does the client do on a tie?
4752 2013-03-12 06:10:38 <Eleuthria> A tie doesn't force 0.8 users over
4753 2013-03-12 06:10:43 <ThiagoCMC> EvilPete, tks!
4754 2013-03-12 06:10:44 * wizkid057 hopes for an eligius double tap
4755 2013-03-12 06:10:46 SwedFTP has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4756 2013-03-12 06:10:47 <Eleuthria> They'd stick with what they saw first, IIRC
4757 2013-03-12 06:10:48 * samurai1200 puts on party hat
4758 2013-03-12 06:10:52 <ligar> as long as someone doesn't find a 2Ph/s box
4759 2013-03-12 06:10:58 * samurai1200 readies noisemakers
4760 2013-03-12 06:11:15 <TradeFortress> cjd, Okay it doesn't crash on that block specially, but it has being crashing while downloading the blockchain multiple times.
4761 2013-03-12 06:11:17 <keystroke> thx Eleuthria, makes sense yea
4762 2013-03-12 06:11:17 <num1> Eleuthria, you remember correctly
4763 2013-03-12 06:11:26 coolfengyu has joined
4764 2013-03-12 06:11:42 satrina has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4765 2013-03-12 06:11:45 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4766 2013-03-12 06:12:00 <cjd> TradeFortress: how are you doing it? -rescan or wiping out blk*.dat ?
4767 2013-03-12 06:12:02 satrina has joined
4768 2013-03-12 06:12:11 i2pRelay has joined
4769 2013-03-12 06:12:13 tvisdog has joined
4770 2013-03-12 06:12:26 <TradeFortress> cjd, deleting blockchain / rm
4771 2013-03-12 06:12:33 <cjd> hmm
4772 2013-03-12 06:12:41 <cjd> vanilla 0.8 ?
4773 2013-03-12 06:12:44 <TradeFortress> Yeah
4774 2013-03-12 06:12:46 bitcoin-dev359 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4775 2013-03-12 06:12:47 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
4776 2013-03-12 06:12:55 <cjd> 32 bit or 64?
4777 2013-03-12 06:13:04 <slush> fuck
4778 2013-03-12 06:13:05 <cjd> anything interesting in the logs?
4779 2013-03-12 06:13:09 <TradeFortress> 64 bit, on EC2 medium
4780 2013-03-12 06:13:13 perezd has joined
4781 2013-03-12 06:13:19 <slush> it's snowing again :-/
4782 2013-03-12 06:13:23 <TradeFortress> cjd, the debug logs just stop after processing block XXX
4783 2013-03-12 06:13:27 <jrmithdobbs> TradeFortress: you bounced the instance to a new host right
4784 2013-03-12 06:13:32 <Sydna> slush: you're lucky. it's 37C in my living room.
4785 2013-03-12 06:13:33 <jrmithdobbs> to make sure you're not on dead hw
4786 2013-03-12 06:13:35 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
4787 2013-03-12 06:13:46 <cjd> yeap
4788 2013-03-12 06:13:50 <TradeFortress> dead hw, hmm
4789 2013-03-12 06:13:52 <cjd> xen can be weird like that
4790 2013-03-12 06:14:04 <slush> Sydna: I would change with you
4791 2013-03-12 06:14:04 <cjd> I remember getting a bug report (java app) segfaulting
4792 2013-03-12 06:14:04 <Xenon481> ?
4793 2013-03-12 06:14:13 <DoomDumas> slush : lucky, we only had half the snow we should have this winter here :(
4794 2013-03-12 06:14:18 <jgarzik> are we healed, as of #225454 ?
4795 2013-03-12 06:14:18 <cjd> it was some kind of vmware server
4796 2013-03-12 06:14:21 torsthaldo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4797 2013-03-12 06:14:22 <jgarzik> both 0.7 and 0.8
4798 2013-03-12 06:14:23 <jgarzik> ?
4799 2013-03-12 06:14:25 <sebicas> 225454
4800 2013-03-12 06:14:26 <ligar> yeah!
4801 2013-03-12 06:14:29 <samurai1200> +1
4802 2013-03-12 06:14:29 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: need 55
4803 2013-03-12 06:14:29 CluckCreek has joined
4804 2013-03-12 06:14:31 <RoboTeddy> slush: give your miners a better % if they move to your block. the gpu heat will melt all the snow!
4805 2013-03-12 06:14:31 <Sydna> slush: you reallllyyy wouldn't. it's hard to sleep when it's 27° an night
4806 2013-03-12 06:14:36 <Eleuthria> yay for guild :)
4807 2013-03-12 06:14:36 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: still not the longest chain
4808 2013-03-12 06:14:36 <nanotube> ;;bc,blocks
4809 2013-03-12 06:14:36 <gribble> 225454
4810 2013-03-12 06:14:38 <nanotube> wee
4811 2013-03-12 06:14:43 <forkwatch> wooo!
4812 2013-03-12 06:14:43 <nanotube> one more for force-reorg on 0.8
4813 2013-03-12 06:14:44 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: one more
4814 2013-03-12 06:14:45 <wizkid057> tie
4815 2013-03-12 06:14:57 <nanotube> heh, these last few blocks came really fast
4816 2013-03-12 06:15:00 <Eleuthria> ah wait
4817 2013-03-12 06:15:02 <jgarzik> 2013-03-12 06:14:09 received block 00000000000001976860e9e35b20b8ebe22c35f813a40962c25ead9fbd89510b
4818 2013-03-12 06:15:03 <jgarzik> 2013-03-12 06:14:09 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
4819 2013-03-12 06:15:04 <jgarzik> orphan
4820 2013-03-12 06:15:04 <Eleuthria> 225454 (0.7) isn't guild
4821 2013-03-12 06:15:11 <Eleuthria> dang
4822 2013-03-12 06:15:17 <RoboTeddy> it claims to be: http://blockchain.info/block-index/357995/00000000000000df96f272c3b1e9dd15272b55750966cbd239219b94756c73ec
4823 2013-03-12 06:15:18 <samurai1200> heh "2Chainz"
4824 2013-03-12 06:15:33 <B0g4r7> hah
4825 2013-03-12 06:15:36 <keystroke> :D
4826 2013-03-12 06:15:36 <zebedee_> blockchain has switched to 0.7 being main
4827 2013-03-12 06:15:45 <Eleuthria> yup
4828 2013-03-12 06:15:53 torsthaldo has joined
4829 2013-03-12 06:15:58 <Eleuthria> One to go til everybody else does
4830 2013-03-12 06:16:12 <MagicalTux> ya
4831 2013-03-12 06:16:13 <Sydna> surprisingly little TX activity at the moment
4832 2013-03-12 06:16:20 <wizkid057> it'll be the savior block
4833 2013-03-12 06:16:23 <MagicalTux> Sydna: everybody's holding their txs
4834 2013-03-12 06:16:31 <MagicalTux> because most websites are not accepting deposits
4835 2013-03-12 06:16:36 <keystroke> why does it say it is BTC guild if it is not?
4836 2013-03-12 06:16:37 <randy-waterhouse> Sydna: satoshiDICE is disabled
4837 2013-03-12 06:16:44 <Sydna> randy-waterhouse: that'd be it
4838 2013-03-12 06:16:44 <Eleuthria> keystroke:  The one that says guild was 0.8
4839 2013-03-12 06:16:46 <Eleuthria> not 0.7
4840 2013-03-12 06:16:47 LiquidBits has quit (Quit: LiquidBits)
4841 2013-03-12 06:16:49 <jrmithdobbs> randy-waterhouse: lulz
4842 2013-03-12 06:16:49 <[269]gbg> how will we know which chain's 455 it is? :)
4843 2013-03-12 06:16:50 <satrina> Sydna, MagicalTux : which shows that communication within the community is good xD
4844 2013-03-12 06:16:56 <jrmithdobbs> randy-waterhouse: easiest to validate blocks in a year
4845 2013-03-12 06:16:59 <jrmithdobbs> ;)
4846 2013-03-12 06:17:25 GoWest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4847 2013-03-12 06:18:01 <epylar> gbg: they have unique hashes
4848 2013-03-12 06:18:06 <sawtooth> So what are some best practices for merchants who want automated fail safes for situations like this? Subscribe to the client feed? Monitor for forks longer than N blocks?
4849 2013-03-12 06:18:25 <cjd> does satoshidice's micropayment trick have any security properties at all or is it just for novelty?
4850 2013-03-12 06:18:35 edward has joined
4851 2013-03-12 06:18:41 <BlackPrapor> sawtooth: good question
4852 2013-03-12 06:18:45 <B0g4r7> Fork monitoring would be good.
4853 2013-03-12 06:18:46 <keystroke> good thing we have btc guild with asicminer moving things along nice and quickly :D
4854 2013-03-12 06:18:49 <randy-waterhouse> satoshiDICE broke bitcoin?
4855 2013-03-12 06:18:52 <Sydna> sawtooth: presumably any fork longer than one or two blocks is problematic
4856 2013-03-12 06:19:18 <MagicalTux> randy-waterhouse: slush did, it seems
4857 2013-03-12 06:19:20 <samurai1200> 1 block fork = yellow
4858 2013-03-12 06:19:22 <samurai1200> 2 block fork = red
4859 2013-03-12 06:19:29 <DoomDumas> lol
4860 2013-03-12 06:19:30 <RoboTeddy> randy-waterhouse: kiind of, since SD was the reason the txn count was raised, which led to the block that caused the split
4861 2013-03-12 06:19:37 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4862 2013-03-12 06:19:38 <Sydna> 3 block fork = drop everything and run
4863 2013-03-12 06:19:39 <epylar> 1 block forks happen all the time.
4864 2013-03-12 06:19:47 <slush> MagicalTux: not me, bitcoind 0.8
4865 2013-03-12 06:19:53 <MagicalTux> slush: yep
4866 2013-03-12 06:19:54 <satrina> i think that default condition is defcon 3
4867 2013-03-12 06:19:54 sawtooth has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
4868 2013-03-12 06:19:55 <slush> I was using stock bitcoind with approved settings
4869 2013-03-12 06:19:55 <randy-waterhouse> satoshiDICE and levelDB
4870 2013-03-12 06:19:59 <DoomDumas> BTC have'nt been broken !  just a feature that appeared !
4871 2013-03-12 06:20:08 <jrmithdobbs> cjd: it's just to abuse the blockchain as far as anyone can tell
4872 2013-03-12 06:20:08 i2pRelay has joined
4873 2013-03-12 06:20:12 <satrina> -1 for each block that is forked
4874 2013-03-12 06:20:20 <samurai1200> a challenger appears
4875 2013-03-12 06:20:22 <samurai1200> insert bitcoin
4876 2013-03-12 06:20:22 orblivion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4877 2013-03-12 06:20:23 <sebicas> randy-waterhouse: technically was BDB
4878 2013-03-12 06:20:23 <satrina> until thermonuclear warfare
4879 2013-03-12 06:20:26 <satrina> ;)
4880 2013-03-12 06:20:32 <jrmithdobbs> cjd: there's better, even easier, ways to accomplish the exact same thing without the problems it currently creates
4881 2013-03-12 06:20:40 <cjd> yeah
4882 2013-03-12 06:20:42 <[269]gbg> when does the orange banner in -qt go away?
4883 2013-03-12 06:20:50 <randy-waterhouse> sebicas: technically it was neither ... they just had a difference of opinion
4884 2013-03-12 06:20:52 perezd has quit (Quit: perezd)
4885 2013-03-12 06:20:52 <jrmithdobbs> cjd: they're just dicks, plain and simple
4886 2013-03-12 06:20:58 <Sydna> there's a timeout on the message, not sure when it is though
4887 2013-03-12 06:21:00 <daughterly> reorganize
4888 2013-03-12 06:21:04 <epylar> 455.
4889 2013-03-12 06:21:05 <RoboTeddy> next block happend!
4890 2013-03-12 06:21:09 <anachron> There it goes.
4891 2013-03-12 06:21:10 <cjd> I have a feeling they use it as a "security dance" which makes people trust that their prng is random and they're getting a fair shake
4892 2013-03-12 06:21:13 <PatrikR> Reorg party!
4893 2013-03-12 06:21:13 <zebedee_> Woot
4894 2013-03-12 06:21:17 <Sydna> 000000000000016924f85069603be8164578eedf113f44d60bf0438cba047c7f
4895 2013-03-12 06:21:18 <keystroke> yay
4896 2013-03-12 06:21:19 <xfaust> :)
4897 2013-03-12 06:21:20 <Eleuthria> yay guild block
4898 2013-03-12 06:21:24 <Eleuthria> :)
4899 2013-03-12 06:21:27 <Sydna> holy TX spam
4900 2013-03-12 06:21:27 sawtooth has joined
4901 2013-03-12 06:21:27 <nanotube> weee
4902 2013-03-12 06:21:32 <ThiagoCMC> REORGANIZE!  :-D
4903 2013-03-12 06:21:33 <forkwatch> my CPU just went bezerk
4904 2013-03-12 06:21:34 <nanotube> just a slight uptick in cpu for a few seconds
4905 2013-03-12 06:21:36 <forkwatch> woooo!
4906 2013-03-12 06:21:41 <keystroke> ^5 Eleuthria
4907 2013-03-12 06:21:42 <ThiagoCMC> More news! We find the ETs! http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/150417-astrobiologists-discover-fossils-in-meteorite-fragments-confirming-extraterrestrial-life
4908 2013-03-12 06:21:43 <ThiagoCMC> :-P
4909 2013-03-12 06:21:53 <cyphase> i don't have it yet on 0.8
4910 2013-03-12 06:21:56 <keystroke> did ASICMINER mine it by any chance Eleuthria?
4911 2013-03-12 06:21:56 <daughterly> and all was well in bitcoinland
4912 2013-03-12 06:22:08 <Eleuthria> keystroke:  I don't keep track of WHICH block people mined :(
4913 2013-03-12 06:22:16 <ThickAsThieves> i'm seeing negative BTC balances on the exchanges
4914 2013-03-12 06:22:18 <randy-waterhouse> cool ... thanks a lot guys ... my millions are safe ;)
4915 2013-03-12 06:22:20 <epylar> So how long will exchanges wait to turn things back on?
4916 2013-03-12 06:22:24 <cyphase> keystroke, he takes all the credit ;)
4917 2013-03-12 06:22:25 <DoomDumas> that was quick !
4918 2013-03-12 06:22:28 BIPS has quit ()
4919 2013-03-12 06:22:30 <samurai1200> happy new chain!
4920 2013-03-12 06:22:31 <EvilPete> received block 00000000000001976860e9e35b20b8ebe22c35f813a40962c25ead9fbd89510b
4921 2013-03-12 06:22:32 <EvilPete> REORGANIZE: Disconnect 25 blocks; 0000000000000366ce98ca28338900094e8cbf445776253181749f782546d006..00000000000000df96f272c3b1e9dd15272b55750966cbd239219b94756c73ec
4922 2013-03-12 06:22:32 <EvilPete> REORGANIZE: Connect 26 blocks; 0000000000000366ce98ca28338900094e8cbf445776253181749f782546d006..000000000000016924f85069603be8164578eedf113f44d60bf0438cba047c7f
4923 2013-03-12 06:22:40 <xfaust> congrats all
4924 2013-03-12 06:22:42 <satrina> :D
4925 2013-03-12 06:22:42 <keystroke> aww ok Eleuthria, too bad :(
4926 2013-03-12 06:22:44 <MagicalTux> :d
4927 2013-03-12 06:22:47 <keystroke> congrats everyone yes
4928 2013-03-12 06:22:47 <MagicalTux> finally
4929 2013-03-12 06:22:49 <keystroke> nice work all around
4930 2013-03-12 06:22:52 <[269]gbg> so it was a 25 block split
4931 2013-03-12 06:22:56 <forkwatch> REORGANIZE: Disconnect 25 blocks; Committing 42019 changed transactions to coin database...
4932 2013-03-12 06:23:08 <satrina> ;)
4933 2013-03-12 06:23:18 <satrina> that would be defcon -21
4934 2013-03-12 06:23:20 <satrina> oh my
4935 2013-03-12 06:23:20 <MagicalTux> :D
4936 2013-03-12 06:23:23 <samurai1200> lol
4937 2013-03-12 06:23:27 <GMP> gratz
4938 2013-03-12 06:23:28 <Sydna> and the satoshidice TX are back.
4939 2013-03-12 06:23:31 <bolapara> good job guys!
4940 2013-03-12 06:23:32 <ligar> bussiness back to normal
4941 2013-03-12 06:23:34 <samurai1200> lol srsly
4942 2013-03-12 06:23:35 <cyphase> now i got it
4943 2013-03-12 06:23:43 <zebedee_> SD back already
4944 2013-03-12 06:23:54 Godzilla123 has joined
4945 2013-03-12 06:23:58 o8gf5 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
4946 2013-03-12 06:23:59 <randy-waterhouse> miners need to start charging fees for SD already ... sheesh
4947 2013-03-12 06:24:01 lophie has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4948 2013-03-12 06:24:13 <samurai1200> heh, just noticed this link http://blockchain.info/double-spends
4949 2013-03-12 06:24:20 h4r1 has joined
4950 2013-03-12 06:24:49 <gmaxwell> man would have been nice if sd gave at least one block room for the reorging miners to insert any fallen out txn back in.
4951 2013-03-12 06:24:53 <keystroke> Committing 26530 changed transactions to coin database...
4952 2013-03-12 06:25:18 <samurai1200> seemed too fast to be human
4953 2013-03-12 06:25:22 <MagicalTux> now waiting for right block chain to gain at least 5~6 blocks advance
4954 2013-03-12 06:25:35 <ThiagoCMC> good
4955 2013-03-12 06:25:37 <epylar> that seems prudent
4956 2013-03-12 06:25:38 <gmaxwell> MagicalTux: Thats reasonable.
4957 2013-03-12 06:25:49 <keystroke> there can only be one chain now, right?
4958 2013-03-12 06:25:52 <wizkid057> 2013-03-12 06:21:28 Committing 26620 changed transactions to coin database...
4959 2013-03-12 06:25:54 <ThiagoCMC> I'm on block 225455 after reorg...
4960 2013-03-12 06:26:00 <epylar> there are still two chains.
4961 2013-03-12 06:26:06 <protus> keystroke: there is cryptographically provably only one chain now
4962 2013-03-12 06:26:09 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: you really thought that'd happen?
4963 2013-03-12 06:26:09 <epylar> oh wait.
4964 2013-03-12 06:26:11 <cads> hey congrats guys
4965 2013-03-12 06:26:16 <epylar> yeah, the wrong one won't advance any more.
4966 2013-03-12 06:26:18 <MagicalTux> keystroke: better waiting a bit
4967 2013-03-12 06:26:23 <epylar> because the right one is compatible with 0.7 and 0.8
4968 2013-03-12 06:26:30 pete1972 has joined
4969 2013-03-12 06:26:36 <MagicalTux> [15:26:02] <epylar> yeah, the wrong one won't advance any more. <- technically it could if someone wanted to
4970 2013-03-12 06:26:46 <keystroke> i agree that is a good policy MagicalTux but what is the technical reason out of curiosity?
4971 2013-03-12 06:26:47 <epylar> that's true.
4972 2013-03-12 06:26:48 <nanotube> yea better safe
4973 2013-03-12 06:26:48 <jgarzik> yep
4974 2013-03-12 06:26:52 <Sydna> there's a very competent security researcher poking through bitcoin-qt at the moment; should someone from the core team reach out to her? — https://twitter.com/0xabad1dea/status/311329145458130946
4975 2013-03-12 06:26:59 <cads> I barely understand what happened, but I popped in to #bitcoin just as there was a big excitement about it
4976 2013-03-12 06:27:00 Guest47610 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4977 2013-03-12 06:27:01 Ant0 has joined
4978 2013-03-12 06:27:03 LobsterMan has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4979 2013-03-12 06:27:04 * Ant0 good morning
4980 2013-03-12 06:27:06 <jgarzik> keystroke: someone could build on the old chain
4981 2013-03-12 06:27:06 <MagicalTux> keystroke: better safe than sorry
4982 2013-03-12 06:27:10 <jrmithdobbs> ya, i'd wait at least 6-8 before feeling overly comfortable
4983 2013-03-12 06:27:18 LobsterMan has joined
4984 2013-03-12 06:27:35 <witwit> is there anything preventing another block being mined with the same incompatibility?
4985 2013-03-12 06:27:37 <MagicalTux> especially if like us you're handling lots and lots of BTC
4986 2013-03-12 06:27:38 <andrew12> that is an interesting way to fix that problem
4987 2013-03-12 06:27:39 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4988 2013-03-12 06:27:40 <keystroke> ok good idea yes
4989 2013-03-12 06:27:43 <andrew12> just to get people using 0.8 to stop mining
4990 2013-03-12 06:27:44 <MagicalTux> witwit: nothing at this point
4991 2013-03-12 06:27:53 <jrmithdobbs> witwit: nope, not right now
4992 2013-03-12 06:27:54 <witwit> that's what I thought, thanks
4993 2013-03-12 06:28:04 PlantMan has joined
4994 2013-03-12 06:28:07 BitBlitz has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4995 2013-03-12 06:28:08 <Sydna> there's another block
4996 2013-03-12 06:28:10 i2pRelay has joined
4997 2013-03-12 06:28:16 PlantMan has quit (Client Quit)
4998 2013-03-12 06:28:18 <jrmithdobbs> witwit: but the problem does not exist with stock bitcoin, it takes tweaked options
4999 2013-03-12 06:28:54 <blah> this is probably a stupid question. forgive me. is difficulty per chain? if so, is it possible for someone to mine a huge number of blocks in the 0.8 chain after it falls?
5000 2013-03-12 06:29:10 bitcoin-dev319 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
5001 2013-03-12 06:29:13 <B0g4r7> blah, no.
5002 2013-03-12 06:29:19 <Sydna> blah: the chain isn't determined by it's length, but by it's cumulative difficulty
5003 2013-03-12 06:29:35 <epylar> 565.
5004 2013-03-12 06:29:37 <sawtooth> Blah: doesn't matter because no one will accept it
5005 2013-03-12 06:29:41 <jrmithdobbs> which happens to correspond with it's length in most cases
5006 2013-03-12 06:29:55 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5007 2013-03-12 06:29:56 <blah> thanks. can i ask why?
5008 2013-03-12 06:29:59 <epylar> erm.
5009 2013-03-12 06:30:03 <epylar> 456, rather
5010 2013-03-12 06:30:06 <epylar> typo.
5011 2013-03-12 06:30:22 <[269]gbg> can we make angry orange banner go away now?
5012 2013-03-12 06:30:23 <B0g4r7> Sydna answered better than I could.
5013 2013-03-12 06:30:25 <blah> thanks, i got my answer
5014 2013-03-12 06:30:35 ibarrac has quit (Quit: Page closed)
5015 2013-03-12 06:31:21 <Eleuthria> Okay...question for devs here...
5016 2013-03-12 06:31:25 cpt_charisma_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
5017 2013-03-12 06:31:25 Guest47610 has joined
5018 2013-03-12 06:31:29 _W_ has left ("Default part message")
5019 2013-03-12 06:31:29 <BlackPrapor> Sydna: cumulative difficulty means that one very high diff block can outweight a few with low diff?
5020 2013-03-12 06:31:31 thoughtcourier has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5021 2013-03-12 06:31:39 _W_ has joined
5022 2013-03-12 06:31:39 <Eleuthria> Any idea why my pool wallet balance shrunk massively after the re-org?
5023 2013-03-12 06:31:42 <Eleuthria> I did a -rescan
5024 2013-03-12 06:32:16 <Sydna> BlackPrapor: I'm not entirely sure. I assume so though.
5025 2013-03-12 06:32:20 <Xenon481> Eleuthria: did your pool find a majority of the 0.8 fork blocks?
5026 2013-03-12 06:32:21 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
5027 2013-03-12 06:32:26 <Eleuthria> Xenon:  No.
5028 2013-03-12 06:32:28 RazielZ has joined
5029 2013-03-12 06:32:39 <Eleuthria> wait, I think I might know
5030 2013-03-12 06:32:42 Ranvier has quit (Quit: Page closed)
5031 2013-03-12 06:32:42 <andrew12> Eleuthria: wait a bit
5032 2013-03-12 06:32:45 <Eleuthria> Payouts made during the 0.8 chain.
5033 2013-03-12 06:32:48 iwanttoknow has quit (Quit: Page closed)
5034 2013-03-12 06:32:49 <andrew12> yeah
5035 2013-03-12 06:32:49 <Eleuthria> The change addresses have 0 confirms
5036 2013-03-12 06:32:54 oakwhiz has quit (Quit: Leaving)
5037 2013-03-12 06:33:07 <Eleuthria> wait...it shouldn't know about the outgoing tx in that case
5038 2013-03-12 06:33:57 dvide has joined
5039 2013-03-12 06:34:01 marvborg has left ()
5040 2013-03-12 06:34:01 Herodes has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5041 2013-03-12 06:34:09 <Xenon481> Eleuthria: Is your wallet on a 0.7 or 0.8?
5042 2013-03-12 06:34:25 <ligar> yeah new onw
5043 2013-03-12 06:34:41 Guest57646 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
5044 2013-03-12 06:34:42 <keystroke> ok next step... 0.8.1 :P
5045 2013-03-12 06:34:44 <Sydna> those blocks are coming thick and fast.
5046 2013-03-12 06:34:50 <Eleuthria> Hmm
5047 2013-03-12 06:34:55 <Eleuthria> getbalance "" shows 1950 coins
5048 2013-03-12 06:35:01 <Eleuthria> So it looks like just a display issue
5049 2013-03-12 06:35:12 AndChat567216 has left ("Leaving")
5050 2013-03-12 06:35:26 <Eleuthria> 936 in unconfirmed blocks, 248 in currently visible balance, and ~800 "missing"
5051 2013-03-12 06:35:31 <Sydna> Eleuthria: that would scare the pants off me, having that much money in a single wallet
5052 2013-03-12 06:35:42 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5053 2013-03-12 06:35:43 <slush> Eleuthria: getbalance call works weird for me either
5054 2013-03-12 06:36:01 <Eleuthria> Sydna:  BTC Guild needs a high hot wallet balance since it's still ~55% PPS
5055 2013-03-12 06:36:08 <Eleuthria> If luck is bad, it needs to be able to keep running payouts
5056 2013-03-12 06:36:16 i2pRelay has joined
5057 2013-03-12 06:36:18 glitch_ has joined
5058 2013-03-12 06:36:26 <MagicalTux> the good blockchain won against the bad blockchain
5059 2013-03-12 06:36:31 <MagicalTux> justice will prevail!
5060 2013-03-12 06:36:32 <epylar> that's about $78,000
5061 2013-03-12 06:36:36 <Sydna> Eleuthria: I understand the need for it, but it would still terrify me
5062 2013-03-12 06:36:39 <keystroke> may the best blockchain win.
5063 2013-03-12 06:36:41 komododragon_ has joined
5064 2013-03-12 06:36:41 jj__ has joined
5065 2013-03-12 06:36:45 <Eleuthria> Considering I lost 1200 BTC last night
5066 2013-03-12 06:36:45 moore_ has joined
5067 2013-03-12 06:36:46 <Eleuthria> because of it
5068 2013-03-12 06:36:51 <Eleuthria> It scares me too.
5069 2013-03-12 06:37:00 <Eleuthria> BTW:  Actual balance in hot wallet is NOT 1950
5070 2013-03-12 06:37:05 <Eleuthria> ~1k of that is unconfirmed blocks
5071 2013-03-12 06:37:06 <GMP> should we start calling it blockTREE?
5072 2013-03-12 06:37:15 <keystroke> hah
5073 2013-03-12 06:37:16 <Eleuthria> Spendable is only ~950
5074 2013-03-12 06:37:25 moop has quit (Quit: Leaving)
5075 2013-03-12 06:37:39 <Liquid-Sin> only
5076 2013-03-12 06:37:39 <ThiagoCMC> grep -i orphan .bitcoin/debug.log  | wc -l = 19711
5077 2013-03-12 06:37:40 <ThiagoCMC> lol
5078 2013-03-12 06:37:40 <Xenon481> GMP: In actuality, it always has been a tree and chain truly is just a misnomer.
5079 2013-03-12 06:37:45 <Sydna> I've done some really stupid things with dd. I couldn't be trusted with that wallet.dat.
5080 2013-03-12 06:37:50 <epylar> Eleuthria: How did you lose 1200 BTC?
5081 2013-03-12 06:38:05 <midnightmagic> ThiagoCMC: You might just be receiving the blocks out-of-order until a connecting block is received.
5082 2013-03-12 06:38:12 <samurai1200> i think
5083 2013-03-12 06:38:13 <samurai1200> maybe
5084 2013-03-12 06:38:19 <ThiagoCMC> no prob... tks
5085 2013-03-12 06:38:19 <samurai1200> everyone needs to turn it off and on again
5086 2013-03-12 06:38:20 <ThiagoCMC> =)
5087 2013-03-12 06:38:23 <samurai1200> (sic)
5088 2013-03-12 06:39:13 <Eleuthria> epylar:  I made an oversight when trying to upgrade a live server to 0.8
5089 2013-03-12 06:39:20 <Eleuthria> and my pool gave people credit for network diff=1
5090 2013-03-12 06:39:26 <epylar> wow.
5091 2013-03-12 06:39:27 <samurai1200> kk outb4 media blitz
5092 2013-03-12 06:39:31 Glitched has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5093 2013-03-12 06:39:33 <samurai1200> thanks guys you da best xoxo
5094 2013-03-12 06:39:33 <Eleuthria> And a bunch of users from China were more than happy to click Request Payout
5095 2013-03-12 06:39:36 samurai1200 has left ()
5096 2013-03-12 06:39:45 <Eleuthria> before I could fix it
5097 2013-03-12 06:39:46 <epylar> that's unfortunate.
5098 2013-03-12 06:39:51 Frodo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5099 2013-03-12 06:39:52 <Eleuthria> Yeah
5100 2013-03-12 06:39:56 <Eleuthria> Only one user has returned the funds so far
5101 2013-03-12 06:40:00 <Eleuthria> Nice guy from Poland.
5102 2013-03-12 06:40:02 <Sydna> what dicks.
5103 2013-03-12 06:40:03 <anachron> Yikes
5104 2013-03-12 06:40:09 <Eleuthria> 47 out of 1254
5105 2013-03-12 06:40:12 RoboTeddy has joined
5106 2013-03-12 06:40:23 <anachron> China's not exactly known for fair play in business practices
5107 2013-03-12 06:40:36 <Sydna> my fail2ban logs demonstrate that
5108 2013-03-12 06:40:47 <randy-waterhouse> trust noone currency is perfect for chinese
5109 2013-03-12 06:40:51 xfaust has quit (Quit: Leaving)
5110 2013-03-12 06:41:05 <Eleuthria> Going to get someone who can translate my emails to Chinese tomorrow if I don't hear back from anyone else
5111 2013-03-12 06:41:08 pobri19` has joined
5112 2013-03-12 06:41:08 <Eleuthria> Just to give it another shot
5113 2013-03-12 06:41:15 <keystroke> where was the guy who sent the rude email from?
5114 2013-03-12 06:41:19 <Eleuthria> But considering most the users mysteriously stopped mining...
5115 2013-03-12 06:41:24 dexlee8 has joined
5116 2013-03-12 06:41:29 <Eleuthria> They knew exactly what they were doing
5117 2013-03-12 06:41:47 <Sydna> presumably one found out and told all of their friends?
5118 2013-03-12 06:41:49 <randy-waterhouse> 457
5119 2013-03-12 06:41:51 <BladeMcCool> Is the network event over? Are we caught up now?
5120 2013-03-12 06:41:59 <keystroke> Sydna: i think it happened so fast they just got lucky
5121 2013-03-12 06:41:59 forkwatch has quit (Quit: Page closed)
5122 2013-03-12 06:42:02 <Sydna> BladeMcCool: pretty much
5123 2013-03-12 06:42:03 <keystroke> BladeMcCool yes
5124 2013-03-12 06:42:04 <epylar> blade, we are ahead by about 3
5125 2013-03-12 06:42:15 drivelights has joined
5126 2013-03-12 06:42:18 <BladeMcCool> oh good.
5127 2013-03-12 06:42:19 pobri19 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
5128 2013-03-12 06:42:24 Internet151 has left ()
5129 2013-03-12 06:42:27 <BladeMcCool> good work everyone.
5130 2013-03-12 06:43:01 <sawtooth> I wonder if mining pools should build in failsafes of some kind. Obviously there shouldn't be a way to push arbitrary updates to them, but maybe there should be a way to automatically rollback to previous versions (perhaps triggered by an alert)
5131 2013-03-12 06:43:05 <Phraust> indeed.  that was fucking phenomenal.
5132 2013-03-12 06:43:15 dgriffi has joined
5133 2013-03-12 06:43:29 <Phraust> (no homo)
5134 2013-03-12 06:43:31 <sawtooth> At the very least the developers should maintain a list of pool operators' contact info
5135 2013-03-12 06:43:42 <anachron> Yes.
5136 2013-03-12 06:43:43 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5137 2013-03-12 06:44:02 <Eleuthria> I'll be working on that tomorrow anachron
5138 2013-03-12 06:44:04 <keystroke> i think they have that sawtooth
5139 2013-03-12 06:44:07 <Eleuthria> After everybody has had some rest and settled down
5140 2013-03-12 06:44:20 i2pRelay has joined
5141 2013-03-12 06:44:20 <anachron> Good to hear.
5142 2013-03-12 06:44:22 <Eleuthria> Going to be giving my Phone # out to all the devs so I can be reached if I'm asleep when it happens again
5143 2013-03-12 06:44:30 <keystroke> we at least need to get some amphetamine into the hands of devs in case these things run late into the night...
5144 2013-03-12 06:44:33 tral has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
5145 2013-03-12 06:44:38 <Eleuthria> If BTC Guild kept on 0.8, this could've taken a long time to fix
5146 2013-03-12 06:44:43 <dgriffi> I made a pull request for a rather simple patch a few days ago.  is there anyone in here with pull on the project who can check it out?
5147 2013-03-12 06:44:47 <keystroke> yea BTC Guild switch is what did it
5148 2013-03-12 06:45:19 <anachron> It was fortuitous that this happened "after market hours" also, so that it's all resolved before tomorrow / today's trading gets going.
5149 2013-03-12 06:45:20 <EvilPete> Eleuthria: you can probably restart that merged miner node now..
5150 2013-03-12 06:45:30 <Eleuthria> EvilPete:  Merged Miner node is already back online
5151 2013-03-12 06:45:58 cjd has left ()
5152 2013-03-12 06:46:00 <epylar> i assume pool operators don't need coffee
5153 2013-03-12 06:46:04 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: thats for all your help, I will not fail to mention to people how helpful you were in resolving this.
5154 2013-03-12 06:46:09 xjrn has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5155 2013-03-12 06:46:11 <gmaxwell> (slush, and Luke too)
5156 2013-03-12 06:46:15 <epylar> just run on adrenaline
5157 2013-03-12 06:46:24 <Eleuthria> Pretty much
5158 2013-03-12 06:46:40 ciphermonk has joined
5159 2013-03-12 06:46:45 BIPS-Adam has quit (Quit: Page closed)
5160 2013-03-12 06:46:48 <Eleuthria> so many terminal windows open
5161 2013-03-12 06:46:55 <dgriffi> my patch is to make the "copy address to clipboard" button also copy to the classic X11 clipboard so you can do highlight and middle click pasting.
5162 2013-03-12 06:46:57 <moore_> so has any one looked in to the source of transactions like this one in the "bad" block: http://blockchain.info/tx/9867370fede3b646fe6122c7f25f6b822bc143f0d780dbb9cd6ccf5626f692cc
5163 2013-03-12 06:47:02 <grau> gmaxwell: do you need some tools to move tx from old fork?
5164 2013-03-12 06:47:19 <jrmithdobbs> no they should fix themselves
5165 2013-03-12 06:47:26 <moore_> I have been wondering if some one caused this problem intentionally
5166 2013-03-12 06:47:28 <epylar> clients that tried to send transactions to a losing chain will resubmit them automatically
5167 2013-03-12 06:47:30 <epylar> (honest clients)
5168 2013-03-12 06:47:34 <Sydna> moore_: that's a crazy TX
5169 2013-03-12 06:47:46 <jrmithdobbs> moore_: feasible
5170 2013-03-12 06:47:48 xjrn has joined
5171 2013-03-12 06:47:52 pdvghq has quit (Quit: Leaving)
5172 2013-03-12 06:48:02 <moore_> I was thinking to trying to make a graph of the nodes involved
5173 2013-03-12 06:48:07 <moore_> they are all highly related
5174 2013-03-12 06:48:20 <oldbushie> that's a lot of 7 4 1 s
5175 2013-03-12 06:48:22 <Sydna> doesn't block chain.info have a way of making trees of TX?
5176 2013-03-12 06:48:25 <gmaxwell> grau: no, all nodes do it automatically on reorg.
5177 2013-03-12 06:48:25 vindimy has quit ()
5178 2013-03-12 06:48:26 qbasicer has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
5179 2013-03-12 06:48:26 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
5180 2013-03-12 06:48:35 <moore_> will have to wait till at least tomorrow I think
5181 2013-03-12 06:48:38 Liquid-Sin has quit (Quit: Page closed)
5182 2013-03-12 06:48:42 <gmaxwell> grau: nodes agressively remine any transaction that fall out of a chain they had accepted.
5183 2013-03-12 06:48:54 <grau> I know I meant to parse if some left over. Just to check in that case.
5184 2013-03-12 06:48:55 <gmaxwell> also, the fork already had virtually all txn as it was running in parallel.
5185 2013-03-12 06:48:56 xjrn has quit (Client Quit)
5186 2013-03-12 06:49:00 <epylar> keep in mind we see 1-block forks all the time.
5187 2013-03-12 06:49:04 Coinhammer has quit (Quit: Page closed)
5188 2013-03-12 06:49:19 <Sydna> moore_: http://blockchain.info/tree/59759967
5189 2013-03-12 06:49:27 <grau> BTW bitsofproof reorged successfully I slept.
5190 2013-03-12 06:49:28 xjrn has joined
5191 2013-03-12 06:49:38 <gmaxwell> grau: congrats, big reorg!
5192 2013-03-12 06:49:46 <moore_> Sydna, yes they have that but that is about TX not addresses, I was going to make one like this: http://bitcoin-r.nfshost.com/
5193 2013-03-12 06:50:03 qbasicer has joined
5194 2013-03-12 06:50:10 <Sydna> moore_: my mistake, that would be a lot more useful
5195 2013-03-12 06:50:11 <moore_> ( works best in chrome but ok in ff and others )
5196 2013-03-12 06:50:40 atweiden has quit (Quit: Leaving)
5197 2013-03-12 06:51:03 <petertodd> We should make sure to save this chain data for testing in the future...
5198 2013-03-12 06:51:22 <oldbushie> still 3 behind I see
5199 2013-03-12 06:51:31 <Sydna> oldbushie: three in front
5200 2013-03-12 06:51:31 xjrn has quit (Client Quit)
5201 2013-03-12 06:51:34 <DoomDumas> gn all, happy to have withness this event live :)
5202 2013-03-12 06:51:40 DoomDumas has quit ()
5203 2013-03-12 06:51:47 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5204 2013-03-12 06:51:49 <user11> how to move to 0.7 chain if i am on 0.6.3
5205 2013-03-12 06:51:54 <user11> i still on 0.8 chain
5206 2013-03-12 06:52:00 Przemo has quit (Quit: User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby)
5207 2013-03-12 06:52:03 <ligar> user11: already fixed
5208 2013-03-12 06:52:10 <oldbushie> oh it caught up?
5209 2013-03-12 06:52:14 <ligar> yes
5210 2013-03-12 06:52:15 <MK`> yeah, it's longer now
5211 2013-03-12 06:52:17 i2pRelay has joined
5212 2013-03-12 06:52:18 <oldbushie> yaay
5213 2013-03-12 06:52:21 <epylar> 4 blocks ahead
5214 2013-03-12 06:52:26 Aahz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5215 2013-03-12 06:52:30 <user11> but my client is still on 0.8
5216 2013-03-12 06:52:34 <grau> gmaxwell: This was a great demonstration of the community strength. Will there be a recap session in some channel? I think it would be worth going over the decisions and actions, to learn.
5217 2013-03-12 06:52:35 Aahz has joined
5218 2013-03-12 06:52:36 <MK`> it's fine
5219 2013-03-12 06:52:37 xjrn has joined
5220 2013-03-12 06:52:39 <Eleuthria> Being on client version 0.8 is fine
5221 2013-03-12 06:53:06 kanzure has joined
5222 2013-03-12 06:53:11 <ciphermonk> Do we know the root cause yet? Where can I get up to speed on it?
5223 2013-03-12 06:53:12 <anachron> Watching bitfloor.com, starting to see some sells rolling in.
5224 2013-03-12 06:53:18 <ThiagoCMC> Now we should put this same kind of effort to fix the "dead puppies" problem...   =P
5225 2013-03-12 06:53:34 <oldbushie> dead puppies?
5226 2013-03-12 06:53:39 jonwaller has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5227 2013-03-12 06:53:42 <ciphermonk> he means dust transactions
5228 2013-03-12 06:53:50 <Eleuthria> ...
5229 2013-03-12 06:53:54 <Eleuthria> I do not approve of calling dust dead puppies.
5230 2013-03-12 06:54:06 <ligar> dead kittens?
5231 2013-03-12 06:54:09 <ciphermonk> Eleuthria, same here. Puppies should never be allowed to die :(
5232 2013-03-12 06:54:17 <Eleuthria> no, kittens are too cuddly
5233 2013-03-12 06:54:22 <Eleuthria> Dead tapeworms
5234 2013-03-12 06:54:26 <MagicalTux> mtgox bitcoin deposit processing is back online
5235 2013-03-12 06:54:28 <Eleuthria> Nobody will feel bad for those
5236 2013-03-12 06:54:37 <Eleuthria> Thanks for the notice Tux
5237 2013-03-12 06:54:38 <MagicalTux> going to take some time until it's back to speed
5238 2013-03-12 06:54:39 <epylar> we're at +5
5239 2013-03-12 06:54:44 * Eleuthria prepares for dive.
5240 2013-03-12 06:54:51 <epylar> cool, i can buy back my btc
5241 2013-03-12 06:54:54 <ThiagoCMC> panic sell coming!  lol
5242 2013-03-12 06:55:04 <epylar> i sold ~9 coins at $41
5243 2013-03-12 06:55:18 <ciphermonk> panic is over now afaik
5244 2013-03-12 06:55:23 <Eleuthria> I bought ~400 coins at < 40
5245 2013-03-12 06:55:27 <keystroke> so 5 is enough MagicalTux?
5246 2013-03-12 06:55:29 <ligar> epylar: its at 44 now
5247 2013-03-12 06:55:30 <Eleuthria> and already flipped them
5248 2013-03-12 06:55:33 <Sydna> for all of you. before buying a printer, check if it can be carried up your apartment stairs.
5249 2013-03-12 06:55:38 <MagicalTux> keystroke: for this time yes
5250 2013-03-12 06:55:43 <Eleuthria> That made me feel a little better about a bunch of chinese miners running off with my hot wallet
5251 2013-03-12 06:55:44 <MagicalTux> enough miners are taking care to have this chain live
5252 2013-03-12 06:55:46 <MK`> The real fork caused by this is harder lines people who think bitcoin is too decentralized, and those who think it's too centralized
5253 2013-03-12 06:55:51 <epylar> ligar: yes, but for how long
5254 2013-03-12 06:55:53 <keystroke> cool
5255 2013-03-12 06:55:57 <keystroke> ok night everyone, nice work again :)
5256 2013-03-12 06:56:00 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
5257 2013-03-12 06:56:09 <grau> Mastering an accident should strengthen BTC IMHO
5258 2013-03-12 06:56:25 <ligar> epylar: i post profit over 15
5259 2013-03-12 06:56:30 <Wayward> ;bc,blocks
5260 2013-03-12 06:56:33 <Wayward> ;;bc,blocks
5261 2013-03-12 06:56:34 <gribble> 225459
5262 2013-03-12 06:56:36 <Wayward> ;;blocks
5263 2013-03-12 06:56:36 <gribble> 225459
5264 2013-03-12 06:56:37 h4r1 has quit ()
5265 2013-03-12 06:56:37 <MK`> You're going to find a lot of people complaining that it was even able to be solved :D
5266 2013-03-12 06:56:40 <Wayward> OMG WE'RE EVEN
5267 2013-03-12 06:56:47 <epylar> i'm just saying i'm assuming there would be a temporary sell-off
5268 2013-03-12 06:56:51 XertroV-work1 has joined
5269 2013-03-12 06:56:51 keystroke has quit ()
5270 2013-03-12 06:56:58 molec has joined
5271 2013-03-12 06:56:59 <ThiagoCMC> Electrum will to its reorgs too?
5272 2013-03-12 06:57:11 <ThiagoCMC> will do... no `to'...
5273 2013-03-12 06:57:28 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
5274 2013-03-12 06:57:29 <ciphermonk> Isn't Electrum built on top of bitcoind?
5275 2013-03-12 06:57:35 XertroV-work has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
5276 2013-03-12 06:57:44 Sydna has quit (Quit: Sydna)
5277 2013-03-12 06:57:55 ThomasV has joined
5278 2013-03-12 06:58:04 <ThiagoCMC> no idea if it is doing reorgs smoothly...
5279 2013-03-12 06:58:25 osirisx11 has left ("PRIVMSG #bitcoin-otc :WTB 3 BTC by chase qp or pp. PM")
5280 2013-03-12 06:58:47 ShamanIotasTook has joined
5281 2013-03-12 06:59:13 <ThiagoCMC> well, my coins are there on Electrum too...   :-D
5282 2013-03-12 06:59:14 <molec> good morning. just read the news. so how long is the orphaned chain? is it still growing?
5283 2013-03-12 06:59:17 <num1> My favorite so far are the people who think it's "ironic that the bitcoin-devs decided which chain was real by fiat"
5284 2013-03-12 06:59:23 <RoboTeddy> grau: what was it like implementing a totally separate node? how difficult has it been to reverse-engineer the way bitcoin actually works in practice by looking at the code of the original client?
5285 2013-03-12 06:59:47 pillarsdotnet is now known as pillarZZZdotnet
5286 2013-03-12 06:59:49 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5287 2013-03-12 06:59:56 <ThiagoCMC> molec, problem fixed...   =P
5288 2013-03-12 07:00:01 oleganza has joined
5289 2013-03-12 07:00:15 pillarZZZdotnet is now known as pillarsdotnet
5290 2013-03-12 07:00:17 <RoboTeddy> molec: the orphaned chain was 25 blocks I fixed; it's no longer growing afaik
5291 2013-03-12 07:00:20 <molec> ThiagoCMC, yeah, I know. but how long did the 0.8-based chain with the too-large block grow?
5292 2013-03-12 07:00:21 <ShamanIotasTook> just wanted to drop in to post a quick message of support for the developers...you guys are amazing, despite this setback...shaman, for one is rooting for you so don't let the haters get under your skin! i know i'm new around here, but i feel any support would be appreciated :)
5293 2013-03-12 07:00:22 <RoboTeddy> * I think
5294 2013-03-12 07:00:34 i2pRelay has joined
5295 2013-03-12 07:01:04 Kireji has joined
5296 2013-03-12 07:01:05 Shrugged has joined
5297 2013-03-12 07:01:53 Xenon481 has quit ()
5298 2013-03-12 07:02:16 <Kireji> has the 0.7 chain overtaken the 0.8 chain yet?
5299 2013-03-12 07:02:23 <ciphermonk> Kireji, yes
5300 2013-03-12 07:02:25 <ligar> Kireji: yes
5301 2013-03-12 07:02:33 jamoes has left ("Leaving")
5302 2013-03-12 07:02:57 <Kireji> good, thanks.
5303 2013-03-12 07:03:01 dexlee8 has left ()
5304 2013-03-12 07:03:07 blkashdla has joined
5305 2013-03-12 07:03:13 <grau> RoboTeddy: I used lots of sources and got input from devs.
5306 2013-03-12 07:03:13 <jrmithdobbs> Eleuthria: too late, we have quorum on this matter and dust/sd spam is dead puppies ;p
5307 2013-03-12 07:03:18 notbrain_ has joined
5308 2013-03-12 07:03:22 <randy-waterhouse> BDB rules the blockchain .... for now
5309 2013-03-12 07:03:23 Chaang-Noi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
5310 2013-03-12 07:03:51 <ciphermonk> I guess testing is in order now
5311 2013-03-12 07:03:59 satrina has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
5312 2013-03-12 07:04:33 <grau> RoboTeddy: What was crucial is to understand what the system really does, and for that no better source than reading the source code of other implementations.
5313 2013-03-12 07:05:14 <RoboTeddy> grau: cool. are there a lot of WTFs in the practical implementations, or did you find things mostly as you'd expect?
5314 2013-03-12 07:05:14 <grau> RoboTeddy: neverthenless my implementation differs fundamentally from others.
5315 2013-03-12 07:05:17 pillarsdotnet has left ("Konversation terminated!")
5316 2013-03-12 07:05:47 <Kireji> will 0.8 clinets have a bunch of confirmed blocks created during the fork that can not be used now?  do 0.8 clients need to clean that up?
5317 2013-03-12 07:05:54 <RoboTeddy> I suppose I should say, "are there a lot of WTFs in the protocol as it is implemented" ?
5318 2013-03-12 07:05:54 Shaded has joined
5319 2013-03-12 07:05:57 kanzure has left ()
5320 2013-03-12 07:06:08 wubino has quit (Quit: Leaving)
5321 2013-03-12 07:06:28 <grau>  RoboTeddy: As you have seen demonstrated this night, subtle things matter.
5322 2013-03-12 07:06:33 <kanoi> MK`: to state the obvious, if not for pools this would go on for days - those devs who have this hangup about pools - they should think twice :P
5323 2013-03-12 07:06:51 <MK`> yeah
5324 2013-03-12 07:06:57 <molec> kanoi, had the same thought
5325 2013-03-12 07:06:57 <Eleuthria> Kireji:  If you had any 0.8 blocks mined on your bitcoind, it will show them as orphans now.
5326 2013-03-12 07:07:17 EvanR has joined
5327 2013-03-12 07:07:19 <Kireji> not mined - I understand those will orphan
5328 2013-03-12 07:07:20 <Eleuthria> Kireji:  Luckily, bitcoin doesn't allow you to spend mined blocks right away, so this fork didn't allow for any blocks mined during the fork to actually be used to fund payments
5329 2013-03-12 07:07:23 <EvanR> so what exactly do miners have to do?
5330 2013-03-12 07:07:25 <ciphermonk> I think we have been very lucky with this issue
5331 2013-03-12 07:07:42 <ThiagoCMC> agree
5332 2013-03-12 07:07:50 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5333 2013-03-12 07:07:52 <RoboTeddy> grau: fair point. Thanks for the new/fundamentally different implementation, congrats on it handling the reorg
5334 2013-03-12 07:07:53 <oldbushie> I'm just shocked that BTC price bounced back so quickly
5335 2013-03-12 07:07:57 <MK`> Lucky Eleuthria wasn't feeling rebellious, perhaps
5336 2013-03-12 07:08:00 <Eleuthria> EvanR:  If you solo mine/p2pool mine, 0.7 is the preferred bitcoind right now.
5337 2013-03-12 07:08:09 <MK`> aside from that, just a lot of hard work :P
5338 2013-03-12 07:08:25 <Kireji> confirmed blocks on the other fork - will 0.8 clients have shared and accepted blocks on the now defunct blockchain?
5339 2013-03-12 07:08:26 i2pRelay has joined
5340 2013-03-12 07:08:32 <Eleuthria> MK:  I try not to cause too much trouble :)
5341 2013-03-12 07:08:51 <phantomcircuit> 000000000000006a92a784239de435ac43b7cf92151d4432cc47095f90526897
5342 2013-03-12 07:08:58 <phantomcircuit> that's the head of the 0.7 chain right
5343 2013-03-12 07:09:00 <Eleuthria> Kireji:  Any block found on the forked chain is now orphaned (unspendable)
5344 2013-03-12 07:09:04 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, ^
5345 2013-03-12 07:09:05 <grau> RoboTeddy: Thanks a lot. I think I will call it beta now. It was the most elaborate test case until know....
5346 2013-03-12 07:09:14 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: uhm?
5347 2013-03-12 07:09:32 <phantomcircuit> nvm it is
5348 2013-03-12 07:09:37 <Kireji> how many hours/blocks went by from the fork to when 0.7 chain passed 0.8?
5349 2013-03-12 07:09:48 <RoboTeddy> Kireji: 25 blocks I think
5350 2013-03-12 07:09:51 <kanoi> 6 or 7
5351 2013-03-12 07:09:57 <kanoi> (hrs)
5352 2013-03-12 07:10:01 <Eleuthria> http://blockchain.info/orphaned-blocks
5353 2013-03-12 07:10:03 <tre-spective> so guys everything fixed?
5354 2013-03-12 07:10:06 <kanoi> so pretty quick :)
5355 2013-03-12 07:10:14 <Eleuthria> That's a beautiful chart
5356 2013-03-12 07:10:42 <molec> how many tx are in the orphaned chain that are not in the longest? any double spends?
5357 2013-03-12 07:10:42 <Kireji> Eleuthria: which chart?
5358 2013-03-12 07:10:44 jotik has joined
5359 2013-03-12 07:10:52 <Eleuthria> The one I just linked showing the two paths of the chains
5360 2013-03-12 07:11:16 Cache_Money has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
5361 2013-03-12 07:11:18 <Eleuthria> ~6.5 hours from the first forked block until the 0.7 chain took control again
5362 2013-03-12 07:11:26 <MK`> yeah
5363 2013-03-12 07:11:30 <Wayward> How can I tell if my client is on the Good or the Best blockchain fork?
5364 2013-03-12 07:11:42 <Eleuthria> Wayward:  If you're on block 225455+, you're on the good chai
5365 2013-03-12 07:11:43 <Eleuthria> *chain
5366 2013-03-12 07:12:01 okahira has joined
5367 2013-03-12 07:12:06 not-applicable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
5368 2013-03-12 07:12:16 <Wayward> Works for me.
5369 2013-03-12 07:12:27 <Kireji> foundation needs to get out in front of the press on this
5370 2013-03-12 07:12:31 <Wayward> What % of mining pools are current at 0.7 ? :)
5371 2013-03-12 07:12:33 <RoboTeddy> molec asked a good question; did anyone manage to double-spend?
5372 2013-03-12 07:12:42 <anachron> Thanks, devs. What an evening.
5373 2013-03-12 07:12:53 <Eleuthria> I hope Graet gets ozcoin back up
5374 2013-03-12 07:12:57 <bVector> RoboTeddy: there is no way to tell unless someone comes forward
5375 2013-03-12 07:12:58 <Eleuthria> (stratum interface)
5376 2013-03-12 07:13:01 <Kireji> full disclosure, technical description, solution, resolution all public, as fast as possible
5377 2013-03-12 07:13:10 <Eleuthria> I'm feeling paranoid with all this hash power that failed over from ozcoin >_>
5378 2013-03-12 07:13:35 vcorem has joined
5379 2013-03-12 07:13:47 <Wayward> Kireji: Mainstream Media hates full disclosure.  It is seen as something vulnerable and wolf attack.
5380 2013-03-12 07:14:10 mughat3 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
5381 2013-03-12 07:14:24 <Wayward> Kireji: Best story to tell media is "We apologize but our policy is not to discuss ongoing investigations."
5382 2013-03-12 07:14:24 <anachron> Wayward has an interesting point. The main thing is that everything's working again, and no regular users lost funds.
5383 2013-03-12 07:14:30 <Kireji> it's not MSM I'm concerned about
5384 2013-03-12 07:14:31 ic3 has joined
5385 2013-03-12 07:14:45 <joe_k> lol
5386 2013-03-12 07:14:51 <EvilPete> quick question.. I have a personal bitcoind node with between 200-500 connections (mostly inbound) at any given time.  will http://codepad.org/7RQZIkhd cause it to ignore SD tx's, not put them in mempool, and not fan them out?  Any harm other than that?
5387 2013-03-12 07:14:52 <joe_k> @bitcoinity
5388 2013-03-12 07:15:00 ShamanIotasTook has left ()
5389 2013-03-12 07:15:14 <MK`> http://blockchain.info/double-spends <-- this is a lot fewer than I anticipated
5390 2013-03-12 07:15:42 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: thats luke's patch, and yes thats what it will do.
5391 2013-03-12 07:15:42 <Wayward> MK`: I decided to be nice.
5392 2013-03-12 07:15:47 <MK`> Heh
5393 2013-03-12 07:15:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5394 2013-03-12 07:15:52 axxlx has joined
5395 2013-03-12 07:16:05 Guest47610 has quit ()
5396 2013-03-12 07:16:08 ncmcxx has joined
5397 2013-03-12 07:16:25 i2pRelay has joined
5398 2013-03-12 07:16:39 anachron has left ()
5399 2013-03-12 07:16:43 anachron has joined
5400 2013-03-12 07:17:06 oldbushie has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5401 2013-03-12 07:17:13 komododragon_ has left ()
5402 2013-03-12 07:17:17 <EvilPete> gmaxwell: thanks.  and also, thanks for tonight!
5403 2013-03-12 07:17:25 SwedFTP2 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
5404 2013-03-12 07:17:25 Anduck has joined
5405 2013-03-12 07:17:26 moore_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5406 2013-03-12 07:17:42 <bVector> EvilPete: did you guys go on a date?
5407 2013-03-12 07:17:45 <Wayward> On that Double Spends page, "SatoshiDICE 48%" what does the 48% mean?
5408 2013-03-12 07:17:52 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5409 2013-03-12 07:17:53 rikur has joined
5410 2013-03-12 07:17:57 <bVector> means that you have a 48% chance to win
5411 2013-03-12 07:18:05 <Wayward> bVector: people in this channel do not date.
5412 2013-03-12 07:18:16 <bVector> obviously :P
5413 2013-03-12 07:18:28 <bVector> it was a joke
5414 2013-03-12 07:18:30 BladeMcCool has quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Would you like to know more?)
5415 2013-03-12 07:18:30 * EvilPete has enough problem children of his own without getting involved here :)
5416 2013-03-12 07:18:51 <bVector> I always tell my mistresses 'thanks for tonight'
5417 2013-03-12 07:19:01 <Wayward> CNN Money: "Bitcoin users do not date."
5418 2013-03-12 07:19:09 not-applicable has joined
5419 2013-03-12 07:19:11 <jotik> Is the 0,7 chain back in control again?
5420 2013-03-12 07:19:15 joako has quit (Quit: Leaving)
5421 2013-03-12 07:19:18 <Eleuthria> Yes
5422 2013-03-12 07:19:19 <Wayward> jotik: yes.
5423 2013-03-12 07:19:22 <Eleuthria> 15 blocks ahead now
5424 2013-03-12 07:19:23 <Wayward> For about an hour now
5425 2013-03-12 07:19:27 <EvilPete> hah, I don't have time for a mistress.  besides, I'd feel awkward asking my wife for permission. :)
5426 2013-03-12 07:19:29 <Wayward> ok, 2 hours
5427 2013-03-12 07:19:30 <Eleuthria> err, 5
5428 2013-03-12 07:19:35 <Wayward> ok 1 hour
5429 2013-03-12 07:19:40 nikos has quit (Quit: leaving)
5430 2013-03-12 07:19:41 <gmatteson_> eh cant sleep. does anyone have a good domain names for a new Bitcoin Exchange? ive tried, something click opennote.com cloudshare.com openpeer.com peerexchange.com thoughts? figure ill get ideas from the group
5431 2013-03-12 07:19:43 <bVector> I sent some money to icbit, anyone know how many confirmations they wait?
5432 2013-03-12 07:19:58 <bVector> nickelback
5433 2013-03-12 07:20:04 <jotik> Wayward: nice
5434 2013-03-12 07:20:04 <bVector> .net
5435 2013-03-12 07:20:08 <gmatteson_> hahahaha
5436 2013-03-12 07:20:20 <EvilPete> gmatteson_: chainsplit.net ?
5437 2013-03-12 07:20:27 keystroke has joined
5438 2013-03-12 07:20:30 <Wayward> gmatteson_: mtgox
5439 2013-03-12 07:20:37 bjorn_248 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5440 2013-03-12 07:20:40 <Wayward> see if they'll sell it
5441 2013-03-12 07:20:44 Detritus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
5442 2013-03-12 07:20:57 <gmatteson_> one could hope eh
5443 2013-03-12 07:20:58 <Eleuthria> yugiohox?
5444 2013-03-12 07:21:01 <keystroke> how come a new 225455 just came out?
5445 2013-03-12 07:21:06 <Wayward> bit.ly.  see if twitter will sell it
5446 2013-03-12 07:21:12 <bVector> emptyglocks
5447 2013-03-12 07:21:13 gglon has joined
5448 2013-03-12 07:21:26 <Wayward> bVector: I do that to people all the time
5449 2013-03-12 07:21:32 <gmatteson_> emptyglocks, that goes right up there with fullmag.com lol
5450 2013-03-12 07:21:41 <bVector> look at you
5451 2013-03-12 07:21:48 <bVector> do you hold them sideways?
5452 2013-03-12 07:21:50 <random_cat> bvector: 6
5453 2013-03-12 07:22:19 <bVector> unicorns.xxx would make a good exchange
5454 2013-03-12 07:22:22 <Wayward> I hold them in super position.  they fire in every direction until observed.
5455 2013-03-12 07:22:24 <bVector> ;;ident
5456 2013-03-12 07:22:25 <gribble> You are identified as user bVector, with GPG key id 414D8CCA199FFD90, key fingerprint 5BDEB4733C8DFF05DFCC2415414D8CCA199FFD90, and bitcoin address None
5457 2013-03-12 07:22:36 <MK`> Anyone have IRC logs of when the fork was discovered? I want to read it and imagine the looks on their faces.
5458 2013-03-12 07:22:40 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: 4k in 5k out, "Blocks which were not handled the same between bitcoind/bitcoinj: 0"
5459 2013-03-12 07:22:50 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: should I just add more ins/outs?
5460 2013-03-12 07:22:50 <MK`> The wtfery must have been palpable
5461 2013-03-12 07:23:10 <Wayward> jgarzik, are you around?
5462 2013-03-12 07:23:27 sawtooth has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
5463 2013-03-12 07:23:27 <bVector> hrm, for the joke, my hostname is unicorns.xxx
5464 2013-03-12 07:23:30 Detritus has joined
5465 2013-03-12 07:23:37 not-applicable has quit (Client Quit)
5466 2013-03-12 07:23:52 porfiriomann has joined
5467 2013-03-12 07:23:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5468 2013-03-12 07:24:04 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: are you testing 0.7 and bitcoinj?
5469 2013-03-12 07:24:08 <ligar> LOL block just dropped on the .8 chain
5470 2013-03-12 07:24:24 <MK`> there's edgy 4channers continuing on the .8 chain
5471 2013-03-12 07:24:25 <MK`> just ignore it
5472 2013-03-12 07:24:26 i2pRelay has joined
5473 2013-03-12 07:24:33 <Anduck> ignore indeed
5474 2013-03-12 07:24:40 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes
5475 2013-03-12 07:24:57 <Wayward> ligar: really?
5476 2013-03-12 07:25:01 <Wayward> ;;bc,blocks
5477 2013-03-12 07:25:02 <gribble> 225460
5478 2013-03-12 07:25:04 <Wayward> ;;blocks
5479 2013-03-12 07:25:05 <gribble> 225460
5480 2013-03-12 07:25:11 <Wayward> damn, can't tell
5481 2013-03-12 07:25:13 OneMiner has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5482 2013-03-12 07:25:14 <ligar> 000000000000009d2dee89c7732b5bc912845d96a6bee38cab815949cfa60d23
5483 2013-03-12 07:25:18 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: crud.
5484 2013-03-12 07:25:30 zbxg has joined
5485 2013-03-12 07:25:48 <Wayward> gmaxwell: busy?
5486 2013-03-12 07:25:57 <bVector> hipster bitcoin chain
5487 2013-03-12 07:26:04 xjrn has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0/20130227184535])
5488 2013-03-12 07:26:05 <bVector> its gone underground
5489 2013-03-12 07:26:11 <bVector> all the cool kids mine it
5490 2013-03-12 07:26:18 <joe_k> client only available on iphone
5491 2013-03-12 07:26:20 <Eleuthria> You probably haven't heard of it though
5492 2013-03-12 07:26:23 geemaxwell has joined
5493 2013-03-12 07:26:35 <Wayward> geemaxwell: busy?
5494 2013-03-12 07:26:42 porfiriomann has quit (Client Quit)
5495 2013-03-12 07:26:55 <gwillen> MK`: it was about 55 minutes from someone saying "hmm, that's funny" to someone saying "oh shit."
5496 2013-03-12 07:27:03 <gwillen> MK`: (neither of those is an exact quote.)
5497 2013-03-12 07:27:05 <MK`> heh
5498 2013-03-12 07:27:08 SwedFTP has joined
5499 2013-03-12 07:27:26 <Wayward> gwillen: that's how it went down?
5500 2013-03-12 07:27:28 <cyphase> some people were noticing blockchain.info acting weird
5501 2013-03-12 07:27:31 lantastic has joined
5502 2013-03-12 07:27:47 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: though Im using bdb 5.1 (or some other 5.X)
5503 2013-03-12 07:27:48 <gwillen> Wayward: the first comment from someone noticing that their 0.7 client was spitting out errors was at 4:10 PM pacific
5504 2013-03-12 07:28:03 <gwillen> Wayward: it took until about 5:05 before someone used the word "fork"
5505 2013-03-12 07:28:11 <cyphase> is this channel publicly logged?
5506 2013-03-12 07:28:13 <Wayward> lol, nice.
5507 2013-03-12 07:28:15 <keystroke> oh wow
5508 2013-03-12 07:28:23 <Wayward> cyphase: no, but many can offer you a copy.
5509 2013-03-12 07:28:25 <MK`> cyphase: it's on the internet, ergo is 100% public
5510 2013-03-12 07:28:33 <cyphase> sure
5511 2013-03-12 07:28:35 <joe_k> http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/03
5512 2013-03-12 07:28:43 <joe_k> lmgtfy
5513 2013-03-12 07:28:43 <Wayward> oh look at that
5514 2013-03-12 07:28:44 nexes has joined
5515 2013-03-12 07:28:46 <Wayward> guess it is
5516 2013-03-12 07:28:48 <cyphase> i got most of it anyway
5517 2013-03-12 07:28:56 <MK`> thanks joe_k
5518 2013-03-12 07:29:01 <cyphase> nice and early in the drama :)
5519 2013-03-12 07:29:07 route66 has joined
5520 2013-03-12 07:29:15 <Wayward> anyone make asshats of?
5521 2013-03-12 07:30:27 <Necrathex> what timezone are those logs?
5522 2013-03-12 07:30:40 <joe_k> utc probably
5523 2013-03-12 07:30:52 <cyphase> everyone thank thermoman for noticing
5524 2013-03-12 07:31:40 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: ah!
5525 2013-03-12 07:31:43 route66 is now known as route66-
5526 2013-03-12 07:31:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5527 2013-03-12 07:32:04 <Wayward> 20:00 (US Mountain Time) to 02:33
5528 2013-03-12 07:32:08 <Wayward> er 20:33
5529 2013-03-12 07:32:18 <random_cat> hmm.  now i only have 225455 :(
5530 2013-03-12 07:32:19 <Wayward> so that's 6 hours
5531 2013-03-12 07:32:21 epylar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5532 2013-03-12 07:32:22 <Wayward> looks like UTC
5533 2013-03-12 07:32:26 i2pRelay has joined
5534 2013-03-12 07:32:48 <jgarzik> Wayward: da
5535 2013-03-12 07:32:53 <Wayward> thermoman: Thank's for ruining our day!!!
5536 2013-03-12 07:33:00 tockitj has joined
5537 2013-03-12 07:33:11 jj__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5538 2013-03-12 07:33:14 <Wayward> jgarzik: Please to be unban Raccoon, please?
5539 2013-03-12 07:33:16 Shrugged has quit (Quit: Shrugged)
5540 2013-03-12 07:33:24 <tockitj> how is bitcoin tested ?
5541 2013-03-12 07:33:28 bitmax has joined
5542 2013-03-12 07:33:34 <Wayward> tockitj: Refine your question?
5543 2013-03-12 07:33:53 <jgarzik> Wayward: he continued being a pest after a kick-warning
5544 2013-03-12 07:33:55 tarkus has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
5545 2013-03-12 07:34:22 <tockitj> i mean, what kind of process does a pre-release undergo before being released to public ?
5546 2013-03-12 07:34:26 random-user has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5547 2013-03-12 07:34:41 <jgarzik> tockitj: that is what a pre-release is
5548 2013-03-12 07:34:43 <Wayward> jgarzik: Looking at the log, it seems rather capricious
5549 2013-03-12 07:34:48 <cyphase> thermoman: 'i'm getting invalid chain and "no available lock entries" in db.log'
5550 2013-03-12 07:34:51 <cyphase> sipa: '0.8 won't have that problem, as it doesn't use BDB for the blockchain anymore'
5551 2013-03-12 07:34:58 <cyphase> fun to look back after these sorts of things :)
5552 2013-03-12 07:35:15 <tockitj> as i understood, we had this chain-split that was caused by software bug
5553 2013-03-12 07:35:35 <tockitj> and these kind of things will happen again
5554 2013-03-12 07:35:50 safra has joined
5555 2013-03-12 07:35:54 <ligar> and they will be fixed :P
5556 2013-03-12 07:36:14 <Wayward> tockitj: Think of it as a 32 bit versus 64 bit software incompatability.  Not exactly, but the similarities are there.
5557 2013-03-12 07:36:15 <tockitj> is there a mining test network where x.y is tested before being sent to public ?
5558 2013-03-12 07:36:24 porfiriomann has joined
5559 2013-03-12 07:36:31 <gmaxwell> tockitj: sure, it's called testnet.
5560 2013-03-12 07:36:51 <Wayward> tockitj: obviously something unpredicted slipped through.
5561 2013-03-12 07:36:52 <gmaxwell> tockitj: you can join it by starting up bitcoin with -testnet=1
5562 2013-03-12 07:37:02 cespanar has quit (Quit: cespanar)
5563 2013-03-12 07:37:03 <tockitj> this is where new software is tested before release ?
5564 2013-03-12 07:37:34 <tockitj> do miners have monetary incentive to be in testnet ?
5565 2013-03-12 07:37:40 <gmaxwell> tockitj: yes, and of course as single nodes on the production network too. (where they can't do serious harm)
5566 2013-03-12 07:38:06 <gmaxwell> tockitj: testnet is insanely cheap to mine. You can cpumine it compfortably.
5567 2013-03-12 07:38:11 bitplane has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5568 2013-03-12 07:38:18 krill1 has joined
5569 2013-03-12 07:38:34 <Anduck> btw, any mailing list possible?
5570 2013-03-12 07:38:37 <Wayward> Hmm, I think he's getting at a good point though.
5571 2013-03-12 07:38:48 <gmaxwell> Unfortuantely it's hard to get anyone but developers and miners to use it.  I've tried to get popular services to setup their preproduction sites on it, both to test them and generate more traffic than the developers can think of... and while some agree, none do it.
5572 2013-03-12 07:39:03 <Wayward> Maybe new releases should go through a more vigorous testing session, where they are HARD CODED to testnet only
5573 2013-03-12 07:39:09 geemaxwell has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0/20130227184535])
5574 2013-03-12 07:39:21 <tockitj> for how long was 0.8 being used on testnet before it was released to public ?
5575 2013-03-12 07:39:23 <gmaxwell> SD asked for 1000 BTC when they were asked to put a copy of SD on testnet. (though this was back when BTC was somewhat cheaper)
5576 2013-03-12 07:39:47 <comboy> is there any way to get this bitcoin alert message from command line?
5577 2013-03-12 07:39:50 <lianj> tockitj: the issue showed up with a block that prolly never happened in testnet in this case
5578 2013-03-12 07:39:52 <MK`> would this issue have appeared on testnet? Aren't the blocks mined there too fast?
5579 2013-03-12 07:39:55 Slate has joined
5580 2013-03-12 07:39:55 <Wayward> tockitj: There may be some things the test net simply cannot test as they would be utterly unexpected.
5581 2013-03-12 07:39:57 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5582 2013-03-12 07:40:15 <gmaxwell> tockitj: about 6 months or so?
5583 2013-03-12 07:40:22 <PatrikR> gmaxwell: jesus what douchebags
5584 2013-03-12 07:40:26 <Wayward> behavior that is a culmination of not only the version being tested, but the behaviors of previous versions.
5585 2013-03-12 07:40:27 i2pRelay has joined
5586 2013-03-12 07:40:50 <Wayward> tockitj: Remember.  The bug was not in 0.8.  The bug is exhibited by OLDer versions; 0.7 and earlier.
5587 2013-03-12 07:40:57 <tockitj> hmmz.. how many nodes are there on testnet now ?
5588 2013-03-12 07:41:00 <gmaxwell> Wayward: this can be tested. And we found bugs of that kind during the development of 0.8 and fixed them.
5589 2013-03-12 07:41:06 <Wayward> 0.8 is actually the GOOD worker.
5590 2013-03-12 07:41:09 <gmaxwell> And testnet consists of multiple versions.
5591 2013-03-12 07:41:16 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
5592 2013-03-12 07:41:26 <gmaxwell> Wayward: ultimately it was 0.8's responsiblity to be consistent, and our responsiblity to make it that way.
5593 2013-03-12 07:41:38 <Wayward> mmm...
5594 2013-03-12 07:41:40 krill1 has left ()
5595 2013-03-12 07:41:40 <Wayward> maybe.
5596 2013-03-12 07:41:42 joiweoiwf has joined
5597 2013-03-12 07:41:46 <bVector> gmaxwell: 1000btc or 1000testnetbtc?
5598 2013-03-12 07:41:54 <Anduck> real btc^
5599 2013-03-12 07:41:54 <gmaxwell> bVector: BTC.
5600 2013-03-12 07:42:03 <tockitj> miners on testnet should have some kind of incentive of being there imho
5601 2013-03-12 07:42:09 <gmaxwell> If they wanted testnet btc, then sure, I've got like 600k of that stuff. :P
5602 2013-03-12 07:42:11 <tockitj> to somehow earn real BTCs there
5603 2013-03-12 07:42:12 winterblack has joined
5604 2013-03-12 07:42:14 <McKay> Why? What's so special about testnet?
5605 2013-03-12 07:42:15 <Anduck> but yeah is there a mailing list or something to get the bitcoin.org news asap?
5606 2013-03-12 07:42:22 <gmaxwell> tockitj: huh? testnet gets mined just fine as it is.
5607 2013-03-12 07:42:24 <MC-Droid> gmaxwell so was it actual undocumented behavior of bdb?
5608 2013-03-12 07:42:28 <Wayward> McKay: Software QA
5609 2013-03-12 07:42:37 <MC-Droid> or something the dev team missed
5610 2013-03-12 07:42:45 <tockitj> gmaxwell, how many nodes ?
5611 2013-03-12 07:42:53 <McKay> Wayward: I highly doubt that would've helped to catch this issue beforehand
5612 2013-03-12 07:42:59 <gmaxwell> tockitj: there isn't any easy way to count.
5613 2013-03-12 07:43:11 aaer has joined
5614 2013-03-12 07:43:20 <tockitj> there is way much less i think than in production
5615 2013-03-12 07:43:22 <Wayward> McKay: I will agree, simply because it depended on the presence of older clients, which are not as likely found on tesnet
5616 2013-03-12 07:43:32 <McKay> Even if there was some incentive to mine on testnet, it'll never match the traffic of the realnet
5617 2013-03-12 07:43:38 <gmaxwell> Wayward: testnet has a bunch of them.
5618 2013-03-12 07:43:44 <McKay> And 0.8 was out for a full month before this actually happened
5619 2013-03-12 07:43:51 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: it has the same blockrate as realnet.
5620 2013-03-12 07:44:00 <gmaxwell> mckay
5621 2013-03-12 07:44:01 <Wayward> McKay: Remember, the 0.8 is not the bad guy; it's the habitual behavior of people using old software that is to blame.
5622 2013-03-12 07:44:03 <McKay> Full-ish month, anyway
5623 2013-03-12 07:44:06 intx has joined
5624 2013-03-12 07:44:13 <McKay> Right, 0.8 is actually the "correct" one
5625 2013-03-12 07:44:21 <jgarzik> MC-Droid: Technically speaking, any bug is something the dev team missed!
5626 2013-03-12 07:44:23 <McKay> My point is that I highly doubt this would have been caught on testnet even if it was active
5627 2013-03-12 07:44:28 <gmaxwell> Wayward: no, thats not realistic. 0.8 is less than a month old. It would be negiligant to pain rush high value services onto 0.8.
5628 2013-03-12 07:44:29 <ciphermonk> Whats the plan to move on to 0.8 now in the future for mining?
5629 2013-03-12 07:44:34 <bVector> Wayward: what if everyone switched to .8 and there was an issue that made all versions just halt in their tracks
5630 2013-03-12 07:44:42 <tockitj> McKay, well that would depend on type of incentive ~1% of prod traffic would be enough to get rock solid i think
5631 2013-03-12 07:44:44 <gmaxwell> mckay: we did catch other similar issues. Just not this one.
5632 2013-03-12 07:45:01 <McKay> Right, I suppose my wording wasn't good enough
5633 2013-03-12 07:45:09 <Wayward> bVector: I didn't understand your statement.
5634 2013-03-12 07:45:13 <McKay> I'm not saying that testnet in itself is useless or that activity on it is pointless
5635 2013-03-12 07:45:14 <MC-Droid> well dont feel too bad, the damage control was exemplary
5636 2013-03-12 07:45:20 <tockitj> jgarzik, nah - its not dev teams fault.. its just about clever testing
5637 2013-03-12 07:45:25 qbasicer has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
5638 2013-03-12 07:45:26 <McKay> However, trying to incentivize people to use testnet doesn't seem like it has any real merit
5639 2013-03-12 07:45:26 nethershaw has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
5640 2013-03-12 07:45:30 <bVector> Wayward: upgrading everyone to the newest version is putting all eggs into one basket
5641 2013-03-12 07:45:40 personabc has quit (Quit: Page closed)
5642 2013-03-12 07:45:46 <MC-Droid> it just proves that dev team could do with some extra eyes on the code which we knew already
5643 2013-03-12 07:45:47 <Wayward> bVector: Any different than what happened tonight?
5644 2013-03-12 07:45:53 <bVector> there were two baskets
5645 2013-03-12 07:46:00 <bVector> eggs were shuffled around
5646 2013-03-12 07:46:01 <gmaxwell> tockitj: there are an absolute minimum of 42 testnet nodes, but probably more like 2-3x that.
5647 2013-03-12 07:46:05 <Wayward> bVector: Having a fork is having a fork.  you will have a fork if everyone isn't on the same page.
5648 2013-03-12 07:46:16 <bVector> right, but that only prevents a fork
5649 2013-03-12 07:46:18 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5650 2013-03-12 07:46:22 <bVector> there are other forces at work
5651 2013-03-12 07:46:26 <tockitj> gmaxwell, well - we need much more to get block splits right ?
5652 2013-03-12 07:46:29 <ciphermonk> I agree, these issues are very hard to predict and it's hard to write unit tests to catch them beforehand. The more testers and code reviews we have, the better
5653 2013-03-12 07:46:36 <gmaxwell> tockitj: no, two would be enough to see this.
5654 2013-03-12 07:46:59 Itay has joined
5655 2013-03-12 07:47:03 <gmaxwell> and keep in mind testnet gets a bunch of abusive activity which is rare on the production network.
5656 2013-03-12 07:47:04 <tockitj> two are definitely not enough
5657 2013-03-12 07:47:08 <McKay> How long was 0.8 tested on testnet bug-free before release?
5658 2013-03-12 07:47:10 <gmaxwell> For example, one time I reorged over 2500 blocks on testnet.
5659 2013-03-12 07:47:17 Goonie has joined
5660 2013-03-12 07:47:27 <gmaxwell> mckay: about 4 months.
5661 2013-03-12 07:47:28 <Wayward> Anyway:  If any of you guys are writing an article for CNN Money, please report that the issue was with "the tendancy of people to neglect updating their software."
5662 2013-03-12 07:47:36 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i can never get testnet to actually run
5663 2013-03-12 07:47:38 <gmaxwell> McKay: or at least free of chain splitting related bugs.
5664 2013-03-12 07:47:40 <phantomcircuit> it never finds a peer
5665 2013-03-12 07:47:44 <gwillen> tockitj: two would be plenty -- you just need one to be notably faster than the other, and the faster one running 0.8
5666 2013-03-12 07:47:44 <McKay> Oh really? That's... quite a bit more than I'd have thought
5667 2013-03-12 07:47:46 btcur has joined
5668 2013-03-12 07:47:49 <McKay> Although I guess the stakes are a bit high
5669 2013-03-12 07:47:55 <warren> "testnet gets a bunch of abusive activity which is rare on the production network" including copyright infringement.
5670 2013-03-12 07:47:57 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: testnet has dnsseeds now, so perhaps your luck would be better.
5671 2013-03-12 07:47:59 <gwillen> tockitj: then the test chain would fork, with the faster one making a long chain and the slower one making a short chain
5672 2013-03-12 07:48:00 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5673 2013-03-12 07:48:09 <bVector> stating that its about software upgrades is a gross misrepresentation of the problem
5674 2013-03-12 07:48:20 <gwillen> tockitj: oh, and you'd need to reproduce the block that triggered the problem in the first place
5675 2013-03-12 07:48:32 <tockitj> gwillen, meh.. that is in the case you know of the bug in advance.. but real testenv has to account for much more
5676 2013-03-12 07:48:33 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah i see it does work now
5677 2013-03-12 07:48:35 <bVector> there are always going to be a mix of versions on the network
5678 2013-03-12 07:48:37 <gwillen> Wayward: updating software wouldn't have helped
5679 2013-03-12 07:48:38 i2pRelay has joined
5680 2013-03-12 07:48:47 daughterly has quit (Quit: leaving)
5681 2013-03-12 07:48:51 <tockitj> especially for distributed envs like p2p currencies
5682 2013-03-12 07:48:52 <gwillen> Wayward: even if 99% had been on 0.8, the only safe choice would have been a rollback
5683 2013-03-12 07:49:07 <McKay> Would it be possible for the dev team to create their own testnet for testing purposes and hammer it with transactions?
5684 2013-03-12 07:49:09 <Wayward> gwillen: If everyone were using 0.8 software, noone would have noticed.
5685 2013-03-12 07:49:11 <bVector> what if 100% were on .8?
5686 2013-03-12 07:49:12 <gwillen> Wayward: this kind of incompatible change can only be made safely with advance notice and 100% support
5687 2013-03-12 07:49:14 <MK`> so, testnet needs more legit users?
5688 2013-03-12 07:49:22 <phantomcircuit> McKay, that's what the testnet is...
5689 2013-03-12 07:49:31 <gwillen> Wayward: 100% usage is not realistic, and even a single user less than 100% would have been a problem
5690 2013-03-12 07:49:38 <LightRider> I blame the leveldb devs for not conforming to bdb specifications.
5691 2013-03-12 07:49:40 <tockitj> McKay, no! it needs to be as realistic as possible - with real-miners if possible
5692 2013-03-12 07:49:41 <Wayward> gwillen: People using 0.3 cannot use 0.3
5693 2013-03-12 07:49:47 <McKay> phantomcircuit: I don't mean *the* testnet, I mean a private one
5694 2013-03-12 07:49:53 <McKay> One that's free of abusive transactions
5695 2013-03-12 07:49:58 <gmaxwell> gwillen: well, at 99% I'm not quite sure, but if you said 90%... if it were really 99% of all users (not just miners)
5696 2013-03-12 07:49:58 <phantomcircuit> oh
5697 2013-03-12 07:50:01 <phantomcircuit> i guess
5698 2013-03-12 20:54:32 wumpus has joined
5699 2013-03-12 20:55:05 TD has joined
5700 2013-03-12 20:55:05 <tre-spective> hey guys were there any doublespends from the fork yesterday?
5701 2013-03-12 20:55:05 <ymirhotfoot> HM: Yes all such things should be backed by, ah, say D. Nolen's core.logic
5702 2013-03-12 20:55:05 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: are they spinning disks? well. two minutes sounds high but at current block sizes.. <0.8 is darn slow.. why do you think 0.8 got deployed so cray fast.
5703 2013-03-12 20:55:05 <gmaxwell> tre-spective: yes.
5704 2013-03-12 20:55:07 <gmaxwell> tre-spective: not clear if anyone lost any money as a result however.
5705 2013-03-12 20:55:15 <tre-spective> hmm
5706 2013-03-12 20:55:21 <tre-spective> well great job on getting things handled guy s
5707 2013-03-12 20:55:30 Boydy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5708 2013-03-12 20:55:39 <gmaxwell> (as a result of the doublespends)
5709 2013-03-12 20:55:55 <tre-spective> im sure it could have been much worse
5710 2013-03-12 20:56:17 <ymirhotfoot> tre-spective: Yes, thanks Bitcoin team!
5711 2013-03-12 20:56:23 pete2 has joined
5712 2013-03-12 20:56:23 <jaakkos> so... please tell me that the original 0.7 guys have found a block by now...
5713 2013-03-12 20:56:36 <jaakkos> because otherwise many other txs could still be double spent
5714 2013-03-12 20:56:38 holorga has joined
5715 2013-03-12 20:56:44 oleganza has joined
5716 2013-03-12 20:56:45 Guest31550 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
5717 2013-03-12 20:56:56 Webbah_ has joined
5718 2013-03-12 20:57:06 pegu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5719 2013-03-12 20:57:24 Anto_- has joined
5720 2013-03-12 20:57:36 Ant0 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
5721 2013-03-12 20:57:51 <lianj> nice last, .8 chain block found 6 hours ago
5722 2013-03-12 20:58:09 <lianj> "you have no power here"
5723 2013-03-12 20:58:23 LacLeman has joined
5724 2013-03-12 20:58:28 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5725 2013-03-12 20:58:42 <MK`> How would I go about participating with the testnet chain?
5726 2013-03-12 20:58:42 <aXs__> bon
5727 2013-03-12 20:59:18 <helo> MK`: start the client up like "./bitcoind -testnet
5728 2013-03-12 20:59:29 * helo asks to buy a "
5729 2013-03-12 21:00:05 <MK`> ah, that's all? Great
5730 2013-03-12 21:00:11 Balthamos_ is now known as Balthamos
5731 2013-03-12 21:00:41 Balthamos is now known as Guest16726
5732 2013-03-12 21:00:58 <gmaxwell> lianj: it would be really good to figure how what nodes were extending the shorter chain.
5733 2013-03-12 21:01:47 perezd has quit (Quit: perezd)
5734 2013-03-12 21:01:48 <lianj> extending as in relaying?
5735 2013-03-12 21:02:19 <helo> miners mining ontop of
5736 2013-03-12 21:03:09 potato5491 has joined
5737 2013-03-12 21:03:12 douzto has joined
5738 2013-03-12 21:04:02 <gmaxwell> what helo said
5739 2013-03-12 21:04:10 <gmaxwell> though nodes shouldn't be relaying it either!
5740 2013-03-12 21:04:27 <gmaxwell> but a miner that will mine a shorter chain is evil or dangerously broken.
5741 2013-03-12 21:04:36 ilian000 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
5742 2013-03-12 21:04:43 brenzi has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5743 2013-03-12 21:04:43 <lianj> hm, but any .8 node even if he is not mining will relay it atm
5744 2013-03-12 21:04:58 wallet42 has joined
5745 2013-03-12 21:05:05 <gmaxwell> lianj: no, nodes do not relay a block which is not part of their longest chain.
5746 2013-03-12 21:05:06 <MK`> not unless it's a new fork
5747 2013-03-12 21:05:16 <lianj> yep, any miner still mining on .8 doing useless work
5748 2013-03-12 21:05:21 <lianj> gmaxwell: ah, good point
5749 2013-03-12 21:05:41 <gmaxwell> lianj: "still mining on .8" you mean mining on the chain we're calling .8, right?
5750 2013-03-12 21:05:50 <lianj> yes
5751 2013-03-12 21:06:07 <gmaxwell> It's fine to mine on 0.8 now, since the pre-0.8 accepted chain is the longest one.
5752 2013-03-12 21:06:11 <MK`> We need a new name to refer to it heh
5753 2013-03-12 21:06:16 ProfMac has joined
5754 2013-03-12 21:06:17 kytv has joined
5755 2013-03-12 21:06:25 <wallet42> why is there mining on .8 if the other chains is so much longer?
5756 2013-03-12 21:06:47 sdf8ee8fdh8 has joined
5757 2013-03-12 21:07:03 <MK`> malicious client
5758 2013-03-12 21:07:10 <easierUsername> i guess mining on 0.8 would still work if you the block was under the limit that was hit..
5759 2013-03-12 21:07:16 moartr4dez has joined
5760 2013-03-12 21:07:29 i2pRelay has joined
5761 2013-03-12 21:07:44 <MK`> Oh, and, I can safely run bitcoind/bitcoin-qt normal alongside the testnet, right?
5762 2013-03-12 21:07:49 <moartr4dez> question - is there some easy way to track which versions miners and other bitcoin clients are at in the network; looking for a way to measure # at each version
5763 2013-03-12 21:08:00 <gmaxwell> easierUsername: the default blocksize target is too small to cause problems.
5764 2013-03-12 21:08:02 <helo> do not attribute to malice etc etc
5765 2013-03-12 21:08:03 nickatnite has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5766 2013-03-12 21:08:03 <wallet42> will the 0.8 chain eventually adjust its "difficulty" ?
5767 2013-03-12 21:08:16 <gmaxwell> moartr4dez: you can only measure listeners.
5768 2013-03-12 21:08:17 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: no.
5769 2013-03-12 21:08:21 <gmaxwell> er darn irssi!
5770 2013-03-12 21:08:24 <gmaxwell> wallet42: no.
5771 2013-03-12 21:08:33 coinspinner has joined
5772 2013-03-12 21:08:37 * gmaxwell wonders where he can git an irc aimbot.
5773 2013-03-12 21:08:40 <helo> gmaxwell: how has it been verified that 250kb can't trigger it?
5774 2013-03-12 21:09:10 <gmaxwell> helo: to whatever extent it can, mining on 0.7 has the same risk.
5775 2013-03-12 21:09:24 <helo> ahh right... so at least no fork risk
5776 2013-03-12 21:09:53 <jaakkos> how about 1) putting a timer to 0-confirmed transactions, that they get deleted from mempools after several days/weeks/... or so, and 2) spreading mempool to joining nodes
5777 2013-03-12 21:10:04 perhapstired has joined
5778 2013-03-12 21:10:08 flug has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5779 2013-03-12 21:10:33 tachang has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5780 2013-03-12 21:10:52 evoorhees has joined
5781 2013-03-12 21:11:14 evoorhees is now known as Guest9131
5782 2013-03-12 21:11:22 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: something like that... though getting it right can be tricky. E.g. if you just track your local time then nodes going up and down can still making something immortal in parts...
5783 2013-03-12 21:11:23 easierUsername has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5784 2013-03-12 21:11:49 alekw has joined
5785 2013-03-12 21:12:38 andzib has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5786 2013-03-12 21:12:40 pegu has joined
5787 2013-03-12 21:12:43 <K1773R> gmaxwell: warez are forbidden :P
5788 2013-03-12 21:12:55 cap2002 has joined
5789 2013-03-12 21:13:12 websrfr has quit (Quit: Page closed)
5790 2013-03-12 21:13:37 p` has quit (Quit: p`)
5791 2013-03-12 21:14:07 easierUsername has joined
5792 2013-03-12 21:14:32 <kinlo> so anyone knows how to reach tycho?
5793 2013-03-12 21:14:36 perhapstired has quit (Client Quit)
5794 2013-03-12 21:14:40 <kinlo> his pool is still in limbo
5795 2013-03-12 21:14:45 <sipa> kinlo: DDOS his pool?
5796 2013-03-12 21:14:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5797 2013-03-12 21:14:53 <Luke-Jr> lol
5798 2013-03-12 21:14:54 <jgarzik> heh
5799 2013-03-12 21:15:03 <gmaxwell> kinlo: how do we know its in limbo?
5800 2013-03-12 21:15:14 dimethylZ has joined
5801 2013-03-12 21:15:15 <kinlo> gmaxwell: look at his last found blocks
5802 2013-03-12 21:15:18 <K1773R> i dont think anyone cares if deepbit dosnt work...
5803 2013-03-12 21:15:23 i2pRelay has joined
5804 2013-03-12 21:15:30 <kinlo> gmaxwell: they are all orphans and they are all building on top of eachother
5805 2013-03-12 21:15:36 <helo> he upgraded to 0.8?
5806 2013-03-12 21:15:43 <kinlo> so that pool is basicly mining it's own fork
5807 2013-03-12 21:15:49 <gmaxwell> helo: no, he's pre-0.8
5808 2013-03-12 21:15:53 Bootcan has joined
5809 2013-03-12 21:15:54 <sipa> perhaps he forked at a different point than the rest
5810 2013-03-12 21:15:58 alekw has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5811 2013-03-12 21:15:59 <gmaxwell> he may be pre-0.6 and couldn't handle the reorg.
5812 2013-03-12 21:16:04 <K1773R> kinlo: thats just deepbit's new ripoff technology syncing in :P
5813 2013-03-12 21:16:21 <kinlo> I've sent him a message via bitcointalk but I'm affraid it will not reach him in time
5814 2013-03-12 21:16:46 <sipa> what would 'in time' be, except 'yesterday' ?
5815 2013-03-12 21:16:48 <kinlo> trying to be helpfull, it's in my best intrest that the competition is eliminated but I acutally care :)
5816 2013-03-12 21:17:04 <K1773R> kinlo: in time would be when it happend
5817 2013-03-12 21:17:08 <kinlo> sipa: exactly, 'yesterday'
5818 2013-03-12 21:17:16 sdf8ee8fdh8 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
5819 2013-03-12 21:17:26 <kinlo> sipa: so it is theoretically impossible to reach him in time, but still :p
5820 2013-03-12 21:17:43 <K1773R> kinlo: are you ming on deepbit?
5821 2013-03-12 21:18:04 <kinlo> K1773R: I run triplemining.com, I will mine my own pool :)
5822 2013-03-12 21:18:19 <K1773R> ah, didnt knew that ;)
5823 2013-03-12 21:18:28 easierUsername has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5824 2013-03-12 21:18:42 <gmaxwell> I sent an email to him.
5825 2013-03-12 21:18:51 <sneak> kinlo: you need a copyeditor
5826 2013-03-12 21:18:57 <sneak> you are using apostrophes for plurals
5827 2013-03-12 21:19:00 <gmaxwell> (and I talked to him in email last night, so that should work)
5828 2013-03-12 21:19:02 <kinlo> sneak: I'm well aware of that
5829 2013-03-12 21:19:10 <warren> OK, I thought the pointless coin was fun at first, but now it's getting out of hand.  And somehow those speculators are driving up namecoin too!?
5830 2013-03-12 21:19:12 <K1773R> hes probably on holidays paid by the fees of his pool :P
5831 2013-03-12 21:19:14 piuk_ has joined
5832 2013-03-12 21:19:16 <kinlo> sneak: I've discussed this with the coowners and they're going to work on that
5833 2013-03-12 21:19:51 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: my wife does that for Magazine - want to hire her? :P
5834 2013-03-12 21:19:51 <kinlo> warren: how can namecoin be driving up if the main exchange is down?
5835 2013-03-12 21:20:05 <warren> kinlo: btc-e
5836 2013-03-12 21:20:07 <sneak> magazine as in The Magazine?
5837 2013-03-12 21:20:11 <sneak> marco's app?
5838 2013-03-12 21:20:14 <Luke-Jr> sneak: Bitcoin Magazine
5839 2013-03-12 21:20:16 <sneak> oh
5840 2013-03-12 21:20:22 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: triplemining isn't mine alone, my partners are responsible for that part
5841 2013-03-12 21:20:31 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: :P
5842 2013-03-12 21:20:48 coinspinner_ has joined
5843 2013-03-12 21:21:23 coinspinner has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5844 2013-03-12 21:22:44 twixed has joined
5845 2013-03-12 21:22:53 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5846 2013-03-12 21:23:17 <twixed> Hello
5847 2013-03-12 21:23:24 i2pRelay has joined
5848 2013-03-12 21:23:26 <Luke-Jr> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/bring-impeachment-and-treason-charges-obama/HY5M0xXc <-- lol
5849 2013-03-12 21:23:28 piuk_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
5850 2013-03-12 21:23:34 <molec> I have a question about this double spend that seems to have happened (sorry if already talked about): why didn't the first tx the guy make get included in both chains? did the 0.7 clients crash or clear the mempool for some reason?
5851 2013-03-12 21:23:48 <amiller> ymirhotfoot, this is my unpublished bitcoin paper https://socrates1024.s3.amazonaws.com/consensus.pdf
5852 2013-03-12 21:23:53 <gmaxwell> molec: I gave a theory on the forum.
5853 2013-03-12 21:24:03 <molec> do you have a link to that?
5854 2013-03-12 21:24:08 <jaakkos> does the reference client test suite not test the client with big blocks? if it does, why was the fork problem not caught?
5855 2013-03-12 21:24:22 <gmaxwell> molec: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152348.msg1616965#msg1616965
5856 2013-03-12 21:24:22 <sipa> jaakkos: it does
5857 2013-03-12 21:24:26 <Luke-Jr> jaakkos: the fork problem wasn't related to size
5858 2013-03-12 21:24:31 <jaakkos> specifially, the bdb problem
5859 2013-03-12 21:24:34 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: sure it does. Because being big isn't enough.
5860 2013-03-12 21:24:37 <jaakkos> i think i need to study the bdb problem a bit
5861 2013-03-12 21:24:38 <amiller> i don't care much if it circulates its just i think it's kinda lame i submitted it to a big persons conference and they said (rightfully) that it doesn't say anything new compared to the whitepaper (truly it does not, it just formalizes what's in the satoshi whitepaper) and it leaves out everything about how the incentives work
5862 2013-03-12 21:25:56 <twixed> I am a french bitcoin user (for more than a year), and I found the lack of content in the french version of the bitcoin.it forum saddening.
5863 2013-03-12 21:26:05 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: locks are proportional to transactions modified in the tx index, not the size of the block.
5864 2013-03-12 21:26:15 HiWEB has joined
5865 2013-03-12 21:26:25 <gmaxwell> twixed: That is a problem you can help with.
5866 2013-03-12 21:26:36 <twixed> Is it possible to allow editing to a larger user base, to allow content creation ?
5867 2013-03-12 21:26:37 [Tycho] has joined
5868 2013-03-12 21:26:50 <Luke-Jr> twixed: it's open to all for editing
5869 2013-03-12 21:26:58 <jaakkos> ok, i see. there seems to be some misinformation going around about the bdb issue.
5870 2013-03-12 21:26:58 owowo has joined
5871 2013-03-12 21:27:18 <twixed> "You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason:
5872 2013-03-12 21:27:18 <twixed> The action you have requested is limited to users in the group: Trusted users."
5873 2013-03-12 21:27:48 <molec> gmaxwell, thanks. I actually read that. But wasn't it the 0.7-chain-miners who lost the tx. I was of the impression the tx was already in the longer-at-the-time 0.8 chain and missing from 0.7?
5874 2013-03-12 21:27:54 <warren> kinlo: what is the "main exchange"?
5875 2013-03-12 21:27:55 <sipa> twixed: there's a recent anti-spam feature where they ask for 0.01 BTC payment to get write access
5876 2013-03-12 21:28:02 <Luke-Jr> twixed: first page to translate: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BitcoinPayment
5877 2013-03-12 21:28:10 <gmaxwell> molec: correct. But 0.8 miners became 0.7 miners.
5878 2013-03-12 21:28:11 <kinlo> warren: I expected it to be the one from doublec
5879 2013-03-12 21:28:22 <gmaxwell> molec: and the ones who converted had most of the hashpower.
5880 2013-03-12 21:28:35 <ymirhotfoot> amiller: Thanks!
5881 2013-03-12 21:28:46 <twixed> Thanks you Luke-Jr and gmaxwell for this insight !
5882 2013-03-12 21:28:55 <Luke-Jr> and sipa ;)
5883 2013-03-12 21:29:04 <twixed> yes sorry ;)
5884 2013-03-12 21:29:25 douzto has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
5885 2013-03-12 21:29:56 <molec> gmaxwell, in other words: didn't the 0.7-miners who ran uninterruptedly have the tx and shouldn't they have mined a block at some point including it? Or was 0.7-miners a really small priority right before the split?
5886 2013-03-12 21:29:56 <gmaxwell> amiller: if you're going to give up on publishing it elsewhere, I'd like to include your paper as technical information on bitcoin.org eventually.
5887 2013-03-12 21:30:08 beshini has joined
5888 2013-03-12 21:30:33 <Luke-Jr> molec: it was likely a race
5889 2013-03-12 21:30:36 <etotheipi_> molec: at that point it was a race...
5890 2013-03-12 21:30:47 <Luke-Jr> molec: it's not like he had anything to lose by trying..
5891 2013-03-12 21:30:47 <gmaxwell> amiller: I think your paper only fails to describe things beyond the whitepaper iff you already accept that bitcoin works. :)
5892 2013-03-12 21:31:02 <etotheipi_> the old un-restarted nodes were mining the first spend, the restarted nodes were mining the second-spend
5893 2013-03-12 21:31:06 <gmaxwell> molec: they probably did but they had fairly low hashpower.
5894 2013-03-12 21:31:15 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5895 2013-03-12 21:31:21 <gmaxwell> molec: and by then it was too late and it had been conflicted by the switching miners that had a LOT of hashpower.
5896 2013-03-12 21:31:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5897 2013-03-12 21:31:30 rafsoaken has joined
5898 2013-03-12 21:31:48 <coinspinner_> How many transactions/kb does the mempool of bitcoind hold before it starts flushing out old/unconfirmed transactions?
5899 2013-03-12 21:31:48 <gmaxwell> molec: e.g. 0.7 miners had 10% hashpower. Then some 0.8 miners (60% hashpower) switched.
5900 2013-03-12 21:32:00 i2pRelay has joined
5901 2013-03-12 21:32:07 <twixed> Is the header "669 articles. Anti-spam protection from BitcoinPayment" the only notice for the "donation" requirement or did I missed it elsewhere ?
5902 2013-03-12 21:32:07 <gmaxwell> coinspinner_: it's unbounded, except by the host running out of memory.
5903 2013-03-12 21:32:10 <molec> "<gmaxwell> molec: and the ones who converted had most of the hashpower." <- I don't quite understand why the 0.8 chain was "chosen", then.
5904 2013-03-12 21:32:50 <helo> molec: the 0.7 chain is valid for 0.8, but not vice-versa. so the 0.8 chain was abandoned
5905 2013-03-12 21:32:58 <ymirhotfoot> amiller: If the paper rightly formalizes part of the Bitcoin system, then it is worthwhile.  Clearly one does not have to include the incentives to lay out the 'anti-double spending by means of a crypto hardened public ledger' part of the system.
5906 2013-03-12 21:33:05 <molec> "<gmaxwell> molec: e.g. 0.7 miners had 10% hashpower. Then some 0.8 miners (60% hashpower) switched." <- this would be a possible explanation. the "original 0.7" miners who still had the tx simply didn't find a block
5907 2013-03-12 21:33:08 <K1773R> @devs/all so, how did you sleep after all this happend (i went to sleep while the chain was forked, i was sleeping horrible)
5908 2013-03-12 21:33:32 Webbah_ has quit (Quit: Webbah_)
5909 2013-03-12 21:33:36 <gmaxwell> molec: right, they were slow compared to the converting miners so the converting miners beat them to a block.
5910 2013-03-12 21:33:38 <TheSeven> flicking through the last screens of log, does this chatter mean that there was actually a transaction reversal (beyond generation transactions)?
5911 2013-03-12 21:33:44 <TD> indeed
5912 2013-03-12 21:33:44 <sipa> K1773R: i went to sleep when the 0.7 chain was catching up :)
5913 2013-03-12 21:33:53 <coinspinner_> gmaxwell: So basically if the number of tx grows significantly bitcoind will max out my computer?
5914 2013-03-12 21:33:54 <gwillen> what volume of claimed double-spends have we seen from the fork?
5915 2013-03-12 21:33:58 <TD> it was an non-malicious guy who wanted to experiment
5916 2013-03-12 21:34:05 <helo> vig
5917 2013-03-12 21:34:06 <gmaxwell> TheSeven: there are ~400 txn in the stub not in the main.
5918 2013-03-12 21:34:07 <TD> gwillen: 1 if you ignore some random SD transactions
5919 2013-03-12 21:34:12 <TheSeven> ouch
5920 2013-03-12 21:34:15 <gmaxwell> including a $10,000 expirement.
5921 2013-03-12 21:34:19 <gwillen> TD: and ignore them I will! How big a transaction was it?
5922 2013-03-12 21:34:23 <TheSeven> how many of them are double spent?
5923 2013-03-12 21:34:25 <TD> heh
5924 2013-03-12 21:34:36 <gmaxwell> TD: no, more than one without the SD txn. e.g. phantomcircuit was pointing to the btc-e one.
5925 2013-03-12 21:34:39 <K1773R> sipa: im happy the problem was resolved so fast.
5926 2013-03-12 21:34:42 <sipa> TheSeven: there was a recent post on the bitcoin-dev mailing list about this
5927 2013-03-12 21:34:45 <sipa> K1773R: me too :D
5928 2013-03-12 21:34:52 wubino has quit (Quit: Leaving)
5929 2013-03-12 21:34:52 maximian has joined
5930 2013-03-12 21:34:55 zooko` has joined
5931 2013-03-12 21:35:14 <molec> gmaxwell, ok. I kind-of understand the rationale of not forcing the 10% 0.7-miners to upgrade... but in the light of this double-spend, it might've been the better option, or am I missing something yet?
5932 2013-03-12 21:35:32 <gwillen> molec: there was double-spend potential whichever direction it went
5933 2013-03-12 21:35:42 <TheSeven> so what is the reason why those 400 txns didn't get into the main chain? sufficient SD spam pushing them out? or something completely different?
5934 2013-03-12 21:35:46 zooko` is now known as zooko
5935 2013-03-12 21:35:58 <coinspinner_> gmaxwell: So basically if the number of tx grows significantly bitcoind will max out the mem of my computer?
5936 2013-03-12 21:36:12 <gwillen> molec: in some ways, the opposite switch would have increased the double-spend potential, because any merchant running 0.7 could then have been double-spent against for an indefinite period, until they found out and upgraded
5937 2013-03-12 21:36:22 <sipa> coinspinner_: well, every unspent coin can only be spent once
5938 2013-03-12 21:36:27 <gwillen> molec: whereas the switch that was done made double-spends impossible again once the chains remerged
5939 2013-03-12 21:36:29 <K1773R> sipa: i especially liked what happend -> problem found -> devs (not only coredevs) create a hive-mind to resolve it ignoring all the emotions about the others
5940 2013-03-12 21:36:54 <K1773R> sipa: well, bad emotions so you couldnt work together to be precise...
5941 2013-03-12 21:37:09 <molec> gwillen, I see. thanks for the explanation.
5942 2013-03-12 21:37:10 <sipa> coinspinner_: though the mempool can contain transactions that spend outputs from other mempool txn
5943 2013-03-12 21:37:15 <gwillen> molec: no problem
5944 2013-03-12 21:37:41 <gmaxwell> coinspinner_: if it grows by a factor of 1000 to a million txn then maybe it would be using 100MB ram.
5945 2013-03-12 21:37:55 <gmaxwell> or whatever... it's not a _current_ concern.
5946 2013-03-12 21:38:09 skinnkavaj has joined
5947 2013-03-12 21:38:41 <devrandom> so it sounds like there should be an alert mechanism for merchants to notice forks... perhaps an RPC call?
5948 2013-03-12 21:38:45 samurai1200 has joined
5949 2013-03-12 21:38:53 <helo> there is
5950 2013-03-12 21:38:55 <gmaxwell> devrandom: you mean running getinfo and seeing the error line?
5951 2013-03-12 21:39:06 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5952 2013-03-12 21:39:16 <gwillen> gmaxwell: was there an error for people on 0.8, who were not rejecting any blocks?
5953 2013-03-12 21:39:18 <devrandom> 0.8 didn't get the error line
5954 2013-03-12 21:39:22 <K1773R> devrandom: there is and its being triggered
5955 2013-03-12 21:39:25 <coinspinner_> sipa, gmaxwell: So if I have enough memory and a tx for some reason does not confirm, let say due to insifficient block space, then my tx will stay in mempool indefinitely, or until bitcoind is restarted
5956 2013-03-12 21:39:35 i2pRelay has joined
5957 2013-03-12 21:40:42 samurai1200 has quit (Client Quit)
5958 2013-03-12 21:40:52 <K1773R> devrandom: 0.8 has/had it, warning ppls to not mine with 0.8 because of a forked chain
5959 2013-03-12 21:41:00 <skinnkavaj> so first double spending happened yesterday https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152348.0
5960 2013-03-12 21:41:13 <gwillen> K1773R: that was a manually-issued alert, though
5961 2013-03-12 21:41:20 <devrandom> gmaxwell: the error line is only when an invalid block is seen with higher work...  that wouldn't trigger on permissive side of hardfork, right?
5962 2013-03-12 21:41:26 <jgarzik> forum troll Blowfeld gets it right, "I don't think it is possible to raise the fees in a way that would make SD unprofitable, without raising the fees in a way that makes bitcoin unprofitable for many other economic purposes."   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149668.msg1617500#msg1617500
5963 2013-03-12 21:41:29 <gmaxwell> gwillen: they got the alert.
5964 2013-03-12 21:41:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: i think 300-400 bytes per transaction is more correct
5965 2013-03-12 21:41:48 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I don't think devrandom is asking about a manually-issued alert, though
5966 2013-03-12 21:42:00 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj: The first double spending happened long ago
5967 2013-03-12 21:42:17 <gwillen> it would be nice -- if there isn't already -- for someone to be able to see that there was a second chain forming, of blocks that are not ancesstors of their own chain
5968 2013-03-12 21:42:20 <devrandom> we can't always depend on devs noticing before 6 blocks
5969 2013-03-12 21:42:20 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj: Foolish vendors that accept zero-confirmation transactions have been hit, including SatoshiDICE
5970 2013-03-12 21:42:26 <gmaxwell> devrandom: correct.
5971 2013-03-12 21:42:38 <gmaxwell> devrandom: you don't ever hear about other forks, sadly, not even on the shorter side.
5972 2013-03-12 21:42:48 <gmaxwell> devrandom: if your peers are all on the same fork as you— you hear nothing.
5973 2013-03-12 21:43:07 <BTCOxygen> Is Tyco on IRC?
5974 2013-03-12 21:43:16 <BTCOxygen> Deepbit mining on wrong chain
5975 2013-03-12 21:43:17 <sipa> [Tycho] ?
5976 2013-03-12 21:43:17 <gwillen> gmaxwell: but presuming they aren't, your client will see those blocks, yes? And could in theory warn you about them?
5977 2013-03-12 21:43:20 <devrandom> gmaxwell: maybe it's worth alerting on seeing peers on forks with significant work
5978 2013-03-12 21:43:31 <gwillen> ==
5979 2013-03-12 21:43:34 <gavinandresen> devrandom: -alertnotify=command is an idea I'd actually been meaning to implement....
5980 2013-03-12 21:43:49 <[Tycho]> I'm investigating the issue.
5981 2013-03-12 21:43:53 <devrandom> merchants that care would be connected to many peers, so they should get enough short-fork peers
5982 2013-03-12 21:43:59 <BTCOxygen> [Tycho]: ping
5983 2013-03-12 21:44:02 <gmaxwell> devrandom: well 1-2 deep forks happen all the time.
5984 2013-03-12 21:44:02 <BTCOxygen> [Tycho]: you here?
5985 2013-03-12 21:44:11 <gmaxwell> BTCOxygen: no, he types without being here.
5986 2013-03-12 21:44:11 <sipa> BTCOxygen: i think he's aware of the problem
5987 2013-03-12 21:44:13 <[Tycho]> Don't know how this affected my nodes even if they are pre-0.8
5988 2013-03-12 21:44:16 <gwillen> gmaxwell: if a fork gets to 5, I think that's a point at which to definitely worry
5989 2013-03-12 21:44:19 PlantMan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5990 2013-03-12 21:44:24 <devrandom> gmaxwell: right, so maybe only notify on 4+
5991 2013-03-12 21:44:32 <sipa> [Tycho]: what code are they based on?
5992 2013-03-12 21:44:43 <devrandom> and maybe go to failsafe on 6+, requiring manual intervention
5993 2013-03-12 21:44:43 <gwillen> since 5 means that in one more block, people on the fork may be confirming txns you aren't seeing
5994 2013-03-12 21:44:46 <[Tycho]> I think about 0.3+
5995 2013-03-12 21:45:02 <[Tycho]> Maybe 0.3.4 or something like that
5996 2013-03-12 21:45:10 <gwillen> devrandom: well, there is DoS potential if everyone in the world goes failsafe just because some asshole is mining off-chain blocks
5997 2013-03-12 21:45:11 <sipa> i know it's at least 0.3.19
5998 2013-03-12 21:45:15 <gwillen> devrandom: which any asshole could do
5999 2013-03-12 21:45:23 <BTCOxygen> [Tycho]: PM?
6000 2013-03-12 21:45:24 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: old nodes (prior to 0.6) had problems with big reorgs that removed a bunch of transactions, the reorg would fail.
6001 2013-03-12 21:45:41 <gwillen> devrandom: but I agree with the basic idea
6002 2013-03-12 21:45:50 <[Tycho]> But there shouldn't be a reorg if I was on a "right" branch ?
6003 2013-03-12 21:46:06 <sipa> [Tycho]: unless you forked off even earlier than most
6004 2013-03-12 21:46:09 <gmaxwell> devrandom: simply telling you what it knows would be helpful, without the risk of "failsafe"
6005 2013-03-12 21:46:22 <devrandom> gwillen: only very few peers would go onto that fork if it's just a random person trying to DoS... (assuming no sybil attack)
6006 2013-03-12 21:46:36 <gmaxwell> devrandom: because sybil attacks are hard? :P
6007 2013-03-12 21:46:47 <BTCOxygen> [Tycho]: Once you finish with the pool please PM me
6008 2013-03-12 21:46:50 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, suuure they are
6009 2013-03-12 21:46:54 <gwillen> I don't know what sort of alerting mechanisms the major merchants have
6010 2013-03-12 21:46:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6011 2013-03-12 21:47:00 <devrandom> gmaxwell: true... people can just implement some kind of internal alert that pages someone
6012 2013-03-12 21:47:04 <gwillen> but seeing a fork should definitely be something they can alert on
6013 2013-03-12 21:47:04 <Luke-Jr> [Tycho]: likely a reorg failure
6014 2013-03-12 21:47:05 <phantomcircuit> oh
6015 2013-03-12 21:47:08 <phantomcircuit> </sarcasm>
6016 2013-03-12 21:47:10 gritcoin has joined
6017 2013-03-12 21:47:25 <Luke-Jr> [Tycho]: setting your bdb limits high should get you out of it
6018 2013-03-12 21:47:29 <K1773R> gavinandresen: -alertnotify will execute a command, could we pass the warning to it too as argument likely with a nice sprintf pattern?
6019 2013-03-12 21:47:30 <coinspinner_> sipa, gmaxwell: If bitcoind has enough memory and a tx for some reason does not confirm, then the tx will stay in mempool indefinitely (or until bitcoind is restarted)
6020 2013-03-12 21:47:38 i2pRelay has joined
6021 2013-03-12 21:47:40 <sipa> coinspinner_: correct
6022 2013-03-12 21:47:42 <gmaxwell> coinspinner_: yes.
6023 2013-03-12 21:47:53 <sipa> coinspinner_: this will be a problem at some point, but right now that's unlikely
6024 2013-03-12 21:47:53 <[Tycho]> Luke-Jr: getting out from THIS situation or next one ?
6025 2013-03-12 21:47:57 <gmaxwell> (I had to use a shorter answer than sipa because my name is loger)
6026 2013-03-12 21:47:59 <gmaxwell> er longer*
6027 2013-03-12 21:48:00 <Luke-Jr> [Tycho]: this one
6028 2013-03-12 21:48:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: LOI
6029 2013-03-12 21:48:13 <Luke-Jr> [Tycho]: what next one?
6030 2013-03-12 21:48:23 <jgarzik> huh
6031 2013-03-12 21:48:24 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: now its such a large reorg I'm not sure about that. might be worth trying.
6032 2013-03-12 21:48:35 <jgarzik> another example of mempool-on-startup being useful to miners: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152348.msg1617466#msg1617466
6033 2013-03-12 21:48:38 <coinspinner_> rofl
6034 2013-03-12 21:48:51 <jgarzik> again, I ponder a -mempool-on-startup command line flag
6035 2013-03-12 21:48:57 <jgarzik> default off, but present for miners
6036 2013-03-12 21:49:03 <skinnkavaj> is there any plans on trying to speed up bitcoin transactions so restaurants and such can use bitcoins?
6037 2013-03-12 21:49:19 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj: FAQ, please see wiki
6038 2013-03-12 21:49:19 <sipa> skinnkavaj: bitcoin transactions are processed in seconds; confirmation takes a while
6039 2013-03-12 21:49:21 perezd has joined
6040 2013-03-12 21:49:22 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: people would set it without realizing the impact.
6041 2013-03-12 21:49:41 <gwillen> skinnkavaj: there are various approaches, with benefits and drawbacks, but there's no definitive way to speed everything up for everyone
6042 2013-03-12 21:49:47 defactomacro has quit (Quit: Page closed)
6043 2013-03-12 21:50:03 FredEE_ has joined
6044 2013-03-12 21:50:12 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: some would, sure.  Negligible numbers & impact.
6045 2013-03-12 21:50:12 <Luke-Jr> [Tycho]: Create a new file in your bitcoin directory (the same one with wallet.dat) called DB_CONFIG with the following two lines:
6046 2013-03-12 21:50:18 HANTI is now known as hanti
6047 2013-03-12 21:50:22 <Luke-Jr> set_lk_max_locks   1000000000
6048 2013-03-12 21:50:23 <Luke-Jr> set_lk_max_objects 1000000000
6049 2013-03-12 21:50:27 thepok has joined
6050 2013-03-12 21:50:47 <skinnkavaj> when all bitcoins is mined in 2140, why would miners continue making transactions possible? i guess fees will be a lot higher then
6051 2013-03-12 21:50:49 <Luke-Jr> [Tycho]: restart bitcoind, and wait for it to reorg. when it finishes syncing, delete the file and restart again
6052 2013-03-12 21:50:50 egecko has joined
6053 2013-03-12 21:50:51 axhlf has joined
6054 2013-03-12 21:51:03 perezd_ has joined
6055 2013-03-12 21:51:17 <gwillen> skinnkavaj: yes, that's the idea. :-) (You might be better off asking questions that aren't directly about bitcoin development in #bitcoin.)
6056 2013-03-12 21:51:27 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I feel kinda bad that I didn't suggest that slush do a manual mempool graft. It's not hard to do.
6057 2013-03-12 21:51:27 maximian has left ()
6058 2013-03-12 21:51:29 <molec> jgarzic, would a saved mempool have helped at all? see: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152348.msg1617529#msg1617529
6059 2013-03-12 21:51:36 cotton has left ("Linkinus - http://linkinus.com")
6060 2013-03-12 21:51:39 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: like ... (./bitcoind getrawmempool | grep '....' | cut -d'"' -f2 | xargs -n1 ./bitcoind getrawtransaction ) | xargs -n1 ./bitcoind -rpcfoo=otherhost sendrawtransaction
6061 2013-03-12 21:51:51 <molec> jgarzik, or what would "-mempool-on-startup" do?
6062 2013-03-12 21:51:51 perezd has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
6063 2013-03-12 21:51:52 perezd_ is now known as perezd
6064 2013-03-12 21:52:00 <jgarzik> I think miners should grab mempool on startup, to maximize fees
6065 2013-03-12 21:52:04 <jgarzik> post restart
6066 2013-03-12 21:52:26 <Luke-Jr> I thought they did <.<
6067 2013-03-12 21:52:37 <jgarzik> but ah well, nobody cares with tiny fees and block subsidy
6068 2013-03-12 21:52:46 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I agree, and not just for that— to prevent doublespends. But we _must_ solve the immortal irreplacable txn fist. :P
6069 2013-03-12 21:52:59 <coinspinner_> sipa, gmaxwell: Wouldn't that allow me to broadcast a long chain of tx that link to a yet-to-be-seen tx and flood the mempool of connected nodes?
6070 2013-03-12 21:52:59 <gmaxwell> first too
6071 2013-03-12 21:53:10 <molec> jgarzik, what do you mean by "grab mempool"? from where?
6072 2013-03-12 21:53:24 <gwillen> gmaxwell: will a txn get kicked out of the mempool if it becomes impossible, because the inputs get spent elsewhere?
6073 2013-03-12 21:53:30 FredEE has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
6074 2013-03-12 21:53:30 FredEE_ is now known as FredEE
6075 2013-03-12 21:53:32 <sipa> coinspinner_: there are various anti-DoS protections that will make it hard, unless you're willing to use a lot of coins for this
6076 2013-03-12 21:53:43 <gmaxwell> gwillen: yes.
6077 2013-03-12 21:53:50 <gmaxwell> (now, lol)
6078 2013-03-12 21:54:10 Guest9131 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
6079 2013-03-12 21:54:21 <gwillen> It occurred to me at some point that a miner could provide a service of accepting, out-of-band, replacements for stuck transactions
6080 2013-03-12 21:54:25 <gwillen> and charge a bit extra for it
6081 2013-03-12 21:54:35 <gwillen> since there's no rule that the txn has to go through the mempool before it hits a block
6082 2013-03-12 21:54:52 joe_k1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
6083 2013-03-12 21:54:57 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6084 2013-03-12 21:55:09 <sipa> gwillen: unless your pre-replaced version gets mined by another miner first
6085 2013-03-12 21:55:26 i2pRelay has joined
6086 2013-03-12 21:55:28 canoon has joined
6087 2013-03-12 21:55:37 <gwillen> sipa: well, the case I had in mind was sending a transaction with an inadequate fee, and having it get stuck in the tubes, so to speak
6088 2013-03-12 21:55:42 <gmaxwell> gwillen: in network replacement would be better and more transparent.
6089 2013-03-12 21:55:48 <gwillen> gmaxwell: definitely agree.
6090 2013-03-12 21:56:32 <coinspinner_> spia: The only prevention I can imagine against a flood of tx linking to yet-to-be-seen tx is to have an upper limit of those kind of transactions. Hmm.. time for me to dive into the code
6091 2013-03-12 21:56:43 <gmaxwell> it's not technically hard.. if a conflicting txn has greater fee (by some threshold) and pays at least as much to all the original outputs from all conflicted txn, AND the conflict has no children... then accept the replacement.
6092 2013-03-12 21:56:45 Lannoc has joined
6093 2013-03-12 21:57:39 <sipa> coinspinner_: oh you're talking about orphans
6094 2013-03-12 21:57:43 <sipa> coinspinner_: those _are_ limited
6095 2013-03-12 21:57:58 <gwillen> gmaxwell: yeah, I certainly hope something of that nature gets in soon
6096 2013-03-12 21:57:59 <sipa> the mempool only contains fully validated transactions
6097 2013-03-12 21:58:08 Hashdog has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6098 2013-03-12 21:58:20 <sipa> which implies their dependencies up to the block chain are known
6099 2013-03-12 21:58:21 <gmaxwell> gwillen: sounded like petertodd was working on it, it will need testing.
6100 2013-03-12 21:58:45 higuise_afk is now known as higuise
6101 2013-03-12 21:59:08 <coinspinner_> sipa:no, I am talking about unconfirmed tx. I would guess that mempool accepts a tx that links to another unconfirmed tx, and even that it would accept a tx that links to a tx that it hasn't seen yet
6102 2013-03-12 21:59:23 <sipa> coinspinner_: read what i said
6103 2013-03-12 21:59:45 <coinspinner_> sipa: ok
6104 2013-03-12 21:59:46 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I'm actually curious why the no-children requirement is present
6105 2013-03-12 21:59:54 <gwillen> gmaxwell: if you mandate preservation of all existing outputs
6106 2013-03-12 21:59:56 <helo> gmaxwell: that seems so obvious in retrospect... i was very afraid of the whole tx replacement
6107 2013-03-12 21:59:59 <gmaxwell> gwillen: because the replacement invalidate the chidren.
6108 2013-03-12 22:00:10 <sipa> coinspinner_: the mempool only contains fully validated transactions; if any dependency is now known, it - by definition - cannot be validated
6109 2013-03-12 22:00:12 <gmaxwell> gwillen: child txn refer to parent by txid!
6110 2013-03-12 22:00:16 <gwillen> oh, because they depend on not just their own output
6111 2013-03-12 22:00:17 drizztbsd has joined
6112 2013-03-12 22:00:18 * gwillen nods
6113 2013-03-12 22:00:18 [269]gbg_ is now known as [269]gbg
6114 2013-03-12 22:00:20 canoon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
6115 2013-03-12 22:00:24 <sipa> coinspinner_: there is a separate orphan pool with seen but unverified transactions
6116 2013-03-12 22:00:33 <sipa> coinspinner_: and this orphan pool is limited in size
6117 2013-03-12 22:00:43 <gmaxwell> gwillen: also, if we have child-pays-for-parent, replacing only the last child would be sufficient to get the chain mined.
6118 2013-03-12 22:00:46 <gwillen> I guess also, if you allow increasing the size of outputs, that would be bad for children even if they weren't invalidated
6119 2013-03-12 22:00:54 <gmaxwell> gwillen: hah, indeed.
6120 2013-03-12 22:00:57 <sipa> coinspinner_: don't confuse orphan here with stale blocks; the terminology is somewhat confusion
6121 2013-03-12 22:00:58 <coinspinner_> sipa: i see
6122 2013-03-12 22:01:00 <gwillen> gmaxwell: oh, interesting. Do we have child-pays-for-parent now?
6123 2013-03-12 22:01:08 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I didn't see that proposal but it makes a lot of sense
6124 2013-03-12 22:01:10 <sipa> coinspinner_: orphan means "parent not known"
6125 2013-03-12 22:01:14 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: only on the "eligius" miner bitcoind branches
6126 2013-03-12 22:01:15 <gmaxwell> gwillen: luke has a patch it's a little scary so its not merged.
6127 2013-03-12 22:01:20 <gwillen> haha.
6128 2013-03-12 22:01:28 <gwillen> It does seem like a very reasonable idea.
6129 2013-03-12 22:01:32 <sipa> it is
6130 2013-03-12 22:01:33 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: meh, it just needs unit tests IMO
6131 2013-03-12 22:01:34 <gwillen> Like priority inheritance.
6132 2013-03-12 22:01:54 [269]gbg is now known as gbg
6133 2013-03-12 22:01:55 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I mean just the complexity of the change, not your specific code.
6134 2013-03-12 22:02:01 rdymac has joined
6135 2013-03-12 22:02:08 <gwillen> actually, child-pays alone would give you a way to unstick stuck txns without replacement
6136 2013-03-12 22:02:12 <gmaxwell> though a more efficient implementation would be possible.
6137 2013-03-12 22:02:17 <gwillen> although only the recipient could do it
6138 2013-03-12 22:02:20 <gmaxwell> gwillen: it would it would let the reciever do it.
6139 2013-03-12 22:02:25 <gwillen> so it wouldn't help people sending coins to anonymous bureaucracies
6140 2013-03-12 22:02:25 <gmaxwell> We should have both.
6141 2013-03-12 22:02:27 * gwillen nods
6142 2013-03-12 22:02:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: likely, I'm not expertised in this kind of algorithm
6143 2013-03-12 22:02:32 <sipa> to be honest, i haven't worked through the patch myself either completely - i find it hard to follow
6144 2013-03-12 22:02:50 fydel has joined
6145 2013-03-12 22:02:55 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: someone with background in that area could no doubt rewrite it far better
6146 2013-03-12 22:02:58 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6147 2013-03-12 22:03:00 <sipa> my first reaction is "i'll write it myself", but that's not very fair unless i spend the effort first trying to understand luke's patch
6148 2013-03-12 22:03:27 i2pRelay has joined
6149 2013-03-12 22:03:32 <gmaxwell> sipa: even if you write it yourself understanding luke's patch might help you make a better result. :P
6150 2013-03-12 22:03:43 <Luke-Jr> sipa: most of the difficulty reading it IMO, is due to optimizations necessary for O(1)
6151 2013-03-12 22:03:44 <sipa> gmaxwell: that's my point
6152 2013-03-12 22:03:53 <skinnkavaj> is satoschidice going to be banned or stopped somehow? i hope not
6153 2013-03-12 22:04:02 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: hopefully
6154 2013-03-12 22:04:23 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: at least until they stop flooding Bitcoin; but really this is off-topic here
6155 2013-03-12 22:04:47 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: too political for this channel right now, head over to #bitcoin
6156 2013-03-12 22:05:05 <sipa> we need a #bitcoin-controversial
6157 2013-03-12 22:05:26 <warren> sipa: How would that be different?
6158 2013-03-12 22:05:39 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
6159 2013-03-12 22:05:42 <gmaxwell> sipa: it should have a bot that repeats every message to the channel (including its own) with a sutiable time delay.
6160 2013-03-12 22:05:45 Maged has quit (Disconnected by services)
6161 2013-03-12 22:05:46 <gwillen> sipa: #bitcoin-politics
6162 2013-03-12 22:05:51 <sipa> warren: well obviously it would mean we can restrict ourselves here to ApprovedSpeak(tm)
6163 2013-03-12 22:05:52 Maged_ has joined
6164 2013-03-12 22:05:59 <coinspinner_> spia: reason why I ask is that I have my own custom code which does it slightly different. It has what I call an Assembly in front of the mempool, where it eagerly tries to pull transactions it doesn't know of. This allows me to faster get a fairly up to date mempool.
6165 2013-03-12 22:06:05 <warren> sipa: Yes sir!
6166 2013-03-12 22:06:06 jotik has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
6167 2013-03-12 22:06:10 Maged_ is now known as Maged
6168 2013-03-12 22:07:13 mate-ae has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
6169 2013-03-12 22:07:25 <gmaxwell> coinspinner_: doing that kind of thing results in an immortal mempool.
6170 2013-03-12 22:07:38 <gmaxwell> you need a way to forget txn that never get mined.
6171 2013-03-12 22:07:42 <coinspinner_> gmaxwell: how so
6172 2013-03-12 22:07:58 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
6173 2013-03-12 22:08:30 <coinspinner_> gmaxwell: right, which is why I originally asked about how tx get thrown out of mempool ;-)
6174 2013-03-12 22:08:32 <gmaxwell> coinspinner_: oh you only pool when triggered by orphan txn?
6175 2013-03-12 22:08:40 fathead has joined
6176 2013-03-12 22:09:15 <coinspinner_> gmaxwell: whenever i see a tx i eagerly try to pull whatever it dends on if I haven't seen it yet
6177 2013-03-12 22:09:20 <gmaxwell> pulling on orphan txn only sounds safe to me, but if you pull the whole peer's mempool you'll never expire anything if you have a group of nodes with that policy.
6178 2013-03-12 22:09:51 <McKay> Is this normal? http://www.doctormckay.com/screenshots/2013-03-12_1748.png
6179 2013-03-12 22:09:53 cap2002 has quit (Quit: cap2002)
6180 2013-03-12 22:09:59 <McKay> Notice the block count
6181 2013-03-12 22:10:38 jotik has joined
6182 2013-03-12 22:10:58 bristol has joined
6183 2013-03-12 22:11:00 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6184 2013-03-12 22:11:11 cap2002 has joined
6185 2013-03-12 22:11:18 joehoyle has joined
6186 2013-03-12 22:11:32 i2pRelay has joined
6187 2013-03-12 22:13:17 <gmaxwell> McKay: is that testnet?
6188 2013-03-12 22:13:21 <McKay> Yes
6189 2013-03-12 22:13:24 <gmaxwell> oh yea, its testnet.
6190 2013-03-12 22:13:28 coinspinner_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
6191 2013-03-12 22:13:35 <McKay> I've been trying to mine on it for a little while
6192 2013-03-12 22:13:36 <gmaxwell> well the estimate is wrong because you have braindead peers.
6193 2013-03-12 22:13:47 <McKay> It starts up and verifies the chain fine, but then all of a sudden it like doubles the blockcount
6194 2013-03-12 22:14:08 <gmaxwell> McKay: yes, thats because you have a majority of peers reporting that count.
6195 2013-03-12 22:14:20 <McKay> A client restart usually fixes it, but the 50 coins that I just mined aren't showing up anywhere...
6196 2013-03-12 22:14:41 <gmaxwell> McKay: you won't see them in your balance until they are burried.
6197 2013-03-12 22:14:42 Tuxavant has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
6198 2013-03-12 22:14:52 <gmaxwell> listtransactions in the console gives more info
6199 2013-03-12 22:15:13 <gmaxwell> I assume some genius is trying to attack testnet now with the blockcount.
6200 2013-03-12 22:15:15 <MK`> my testnet says it's on 56557
6201 2013-03-12 22:15:18 <gmaxwell> shouldn't harm anything
6202 2013-03-12 22:15:22 <gmaxwell> MK`: that sounds right.
6203 2013-03-12 22:15:24 <McKay> MK` So does blockexplorer
6204 2013-03-12 22:15:27 <MK`> 56558 now.
6205 2013-03-12 22:15:32 <McKay> Well, kinda
6206 2013-03-12 22:15:33 <MK`> etc.
6207 2013-03-12 22:15:36 <McKay> Blockexplorer says 56125
6208 2013-03-12 22:15:37 simon872 has joined
6209 2013-03-12 22:15:52 <McKay> 56561 is what my client says
6210 2013-03-12 22:16:26 <MK`> I just started using testnet like an hour ago so I'll try to be a good peer :P
6211 2013-03-12 22:16:40 diki has quit ()
6212 2013-03-12 22:16:45 <McKay> http://www.doctormckay.com/screenshots/2013-03-12_1755.png
6213 2013-03-12 22:16:51 <gmaxwell> MK`: what OS are you running?
6214 2013-03-12 22:16:51 <McKay> Should it be saying category orphan?
6215 2013-03-12 22:16:56 Guest1000 has joined
6216 2013-03-12 22:17:03 <gmaxwell> McKay: you got orphaned. :P
6217 2013-03-12 22:17:05 <jtimon> what's the main use case of replacements?
6218 2013-03-12 22:17:06 <McKay> :(
6219 2013-03-12 22:17:08 <MK`> gmaxwell: my testnet node is on Windows 7
6220 2013-03-12 22:17:21 <gmaxwell> jtimon: what kind of replacement? what we were talking about here?
6221 2013-03-12 22:17:25 <MK`> if node is the correct word
6222 2013-03-12 22:17:31 <gmaxwell> MK`: yep. OKAY.
6223 2013-03-12 22:17:35 <McKay> CPU mining did absolutely nothing for me, so I'm GPU mining on my crappy nvidia
6224 2013-03-12 22:17:39 drizzt_ has joined
6225 2013-03-12 22:17:39 <jtimon> transaction replacements by id tx
6226 2013-03-12 22:17:43 <jtimon> sorry
6227 2013-03-12 22:17:46 <MK`> I don't think gpu mining on testnet is wise lol
6228 2013-03-12 22:17:54 <McKay> 7Khash/sec
6229 2013-03-12 22:17:56 <McKay> Not harming anyone
6230 2013-03-12 22:17:56 drizztbsd has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
6231 2013-03-12 22:18:09 <McKay> I mean Mhash
6232 2013-03-12 22:18:10 <jtimon> you were talking about it before
6233 2013-03-12 22:18:22 JWU42_ has left ()
6234 2013-03-12 22:18:29 <gmaxwell> jtimon: in that case the application is to replace a txn which is not confirming with one that has more fees.
6235 2013-03-12 22:18:36 SwedFTP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
6236 2013-03-12 22:18:37 <zoinky> 2/clear
6237 2013-03-12 22:18:42 Lyspooner has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6238 2013-03-12 22:18:59 vbuterin has joined
6239 2013-03-12 22:19:03 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6240 2013-03-12 22:19:10 SwedFTP has joined
6241 2013-03-12 22:19:25 <jtimon> oh, I see so that it has more chances to be commited, thanks gmaxwell
6242 2013-03-12 22:19:35 i2pRelay has joined
6243 2013-03-12 22:19:50 Webbah has joined
6244 2013-03-12 22:20:28 <gmaxwell> anyone need any testnet btc?
6245 2013-03-12 22:20:42 HLL has joined
6246 2013-03-12 22:20:47 <MK`> I do, lemme make an address
6247 2013-03-12 22:21:14 DandruffDaffodil has joined
6248 2013-03-12 22:21:21 DandruffDaffodil has quit (Client Quit)
6249 2013-03-12 22:21:27 toffoo has joined
6250 2013-03-12 22:21:28 <McKay> gmaxwell: I wouldn't mind some
6251 2013-03-12 22:21:31 lmacken_ is now known as lmacken
6252 2013-03-12 22:21:37 lmacken has quit (Changing host)
6253 2013-03-12 22:21:37 lmacken has joined
6254 2013-03-12 22:21:48 <McKay> Since my only mining returns gor orphaned
6255 2013-03-12 22:21:52 <McKay> *got
6256 2013-03-12 22:21:57 <gmaxwell> McKay: gimme an address
6257 2013-03-12 22:22:09 <McKay> mmX3Nr2fFt3TXJ7sUeJVScr2JCYky66fwf
6258 2013-03-12 22:22:50 <MK`> thanks.
6259 2013-03-12 22:22:57 <gmaxwell> McKay, MK` Don't spend it all in one place. :P
6260 2013-03-12 22:22:57 <McKay> Many thanks
6261 2013-03-12 22:23:00 prolxray has quit ()
6262 2013-03-12 22:23:02 <MK`> heh
6263 2013-03-12 22:23:07 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
6264 2013-03-12 22:23:11 <K1773R> gmaxwell, how about donating it to the two testnet faucets
6265 2013-03-12 22:23:18 <McKay> Well, that confirmed quickly
6266 2013-03-12 22:23:30 <pjorrit_> we really shit get a SD on testnet
6267 2013-03-12 22:23:32 DandruffDaffodil has joined
6268 2013-03-12 22:23:35 <pjorrit_> should* whoops
6269 2013-03-12 22:23:37 <MK`> yeah, confirmed almost immediately
6270 2013-03-12 22:23:55 DandruffDaffodil has quit (Client Quit)
6271 2013-03-12 22:23:57 <McKay> pjorrit_: I might do something like that
6272 2013-03-12 22:24:01 <warren> what's the hashrate on testnet?
6273 2013-03-12 22:24:11 <McKay> I dunno, but it's already got 4 confs :o
6274 2013-03-12 22:24:33 slush has joined
6275 2013-03-12 22:25:19 DandruffDaffodil has joined
6276 2013-03-12 22:25:25 paybitcoin1 has joined
6277 2013-03-12 22:26:15 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
6278 2013-03-12 22:26:38 haberdasher has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
6279 2013-03-12 22:26:40 lantastic has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
6280 2013-03-12 22:26:47 sivu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
6281 2013-03-12 22:26:58 <skinnkavaj> how do you "personalize" your bitcoin adresses? like SD 1dice97ECuByXAvqXpaYzSaQuPVvrtmz6
6282 2013-03-12 22:27:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6283 2013-03-12 22:27:14 <sipa> skinnkavaj: it's called vanity addresses; google for it
6284 2013-03-12 22:27:21 <skinnkavaj> thank you sir
6285 2013-03-12 22:27:37 i2pRelay has joined
6286 2013-03-12 22:27:40 sivu has joined
6287 2013-03-12 22:27:44 HiWEB has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
6288 2013-03-12 22:28:23 <MK`> Ah, neat. I'll need to look into that as well
6289 2013-03-12 22:28:46 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
6290 2013-03-12 22:29:05 DandruffDaffodil has quit (Client Quit)
6291 2013-03-12 22:29:41 ymirhotfoot has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
6292 2013-03-12 22:29:43 <cyphase> 1SatoshiNakamotoCreatedBitcoinYo
6293 2013-03-12 22:30:32 Insu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6294 2013-03-12 22:30:40 epylar has joined
6295 2013-03-12 22:30:59 modmsad has joined
6296 2013-03-12 22:31:22 PhantomSpark has joined
6297 2013-03-12 22:31:41 <diatonic> skinnkavaj: https://bitcoinvanity.appspot.com/
6298 2013-03-12 22:32:05 Webbah has quit (Quit: Webbah)
6299 2013-03-12 22:32:31 <lianj> diatonic: does the site do it on the client side?
6300 2013-03-12 22:32:37 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
6301 2013-03-12 22:32:52 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
6302 2013-03-12 22:33:07 <diatonic> lianj: No, Your-Part-Public-Key: Your-Part-Private-Key:
6303 2013-03-12 22:33:22 <diatonic> lianj: I mean yes, client side
6304 2013-03-12 22:33:42 <warren> I'm mining testnet with 5% CPU.
6305 2013-03-12 22:34:06 * TheSeven imagines that it would actually be fun to play satoshidice basically for free on testnet :)
6306 2013-03-12 22:34:16 joe_k has joined
6307 2013-03-12 22:34:21 safra has quit (Quit: Leaving)
6308 2013-03-12 22:34:30 <diatonic> TheSeven: Until you win big.
6309 2013-03-12 22:34:30 <Luke-Jr> TheSeven: yeah, I might even do it
6310 2013-03-12 22:34:30 <epylar> you can play satoshi dice for free using a random number generator
6311 2013-03-12 22:34:31 <warren> TheSeven: it isn't hard to write your own SD-clone.  It would actually be good to have on testnet.
6312 2013-03-12 22:34:35 <sipa> i really wonder what would happen if they'd launch and advertize for playong on testnet
6313 2013-03-12 22:34:41 jaeyjay has joined
6314 2013-03-12 22:34:52 <sipa> i think it may mean testnet coin become valuable again :D
6315 2013-03-12 22:35:08 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6316 2013-03-12 22:35:12 Guest37625 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
6317 2013-03-12 22:35:21 <warren> sipa: Testnet coin having some exchange value would encourage people to actually test and abuse testnet
6318 2013-03-12 22:35:22 <TheSeven> it probably wouldn't quite work well with the kind of intermittent mining that we have on testnet
6319 2013-03-12 22:35:24 <HLL> Do u need some clients on tesnets?
6320 2013-03-12 22:35:36 <sipa> warren: they used to, at some point
6321 2013-03-12 22:35:38 i2pRelay has joined
6322 2013-03-12 22:35:53 <sipa> warren: and it maybe testnet very useless for testing, as there were actual miners on it
6323 2013-03-12 22:35:54 <warren> sipa: would be just as absurd as the alt coins
6324 2013-03-12 22:36:01 <sipa> at least for some tests
6325 2013-03-12 22:36:10 potato5491 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
6326 2013-03-12 22:36:18 <warren> sipa: just have the devs premine so they have the majority for actual tests
6327 2013-03-12 22:36:22 <sipa> warren: exchange rate was 10000 tnBTC / 3 BTC, iirc
6328 2013-03-12 22:36:29 <TheSeven> sipa: for those tests you could probably use a testnet in a box
6329 2013-03-12 22:36:35 <TheSeven> or you could have two testnets
6330 2013-03-12 22:37:07 modmsad has quit (Quit: Page closed)
6331 2013-03-12 22:37:10 <MK`> i imagine most people use testnet-in-a-box for testing
6332 2013-03-12 22:37:14 <TheSeven> so 3 nets total: a high-value, high-stability net, a low-value playground net, and a zero-value no-permanent-mining testnet
6333 2013-03-12 22:37:18 <lianj> MK`: ack
6334 2013-03-12 22:37:35 zooko is now known as zooko_afk
6335 2013-03-12 22:37:58 FredEE has joined
6336 2013-03-12 22:38:12 alexwaters has joined
6337 2013-03-12 22:38:59 <neofutur> MK`: why do you use a ` in your nickname ?
6338 2013-03-12 22:39:05 <gmaxwell> TheSeven: import random; [random.choice(['You win','You lose']) for x in xrange(2**16)]
6339 2013-03-12 22:39:09 <MK`> "MK" was taken on this network :(
6340 2013-03-12 22:39:13 jaeyjay has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
6341 2013-03-12 22:39:40 <warren> gmaxwell: provably stupid (users)
6342 2013-03-12 22:39:52 heinz` has left ()
6343 2013-03-12 22:40:15 <lianj> is pythons default random the rng you want?
6344 2013-03-12 22:40:16 <neofutur> ok, I ask because I have a highligh on the backquote, most users with a ` on -otc being scammers squatting non enforced nicknames ( just a fyi, you re still alowed to use the backquote )
6345 2013-03-12 22:40:43 <MK`> Ah, so it hls you whenever I speak? :X
6346 2013-03-12 22:40:48 <neofutur> yup
6347 2013-03-12 22:40:49 <gmaxwell> lianj: I fully support you using that RNG.
6348 2013-03-12 22:40:50 <gmaxwell> :P
6349 2013-03-12 22:40:57 <joe_k> lianj: its predictable but random.
6350 2013-03-12 22:41:01 <lianj> ^^
6351 2013-03-12 22:41:02 <MK`> Hm, I might change it then, it's sort of overdue anyway
6352 2013-03-12 22:41:07 <joe_k> lianj: the SystemRandom one pulls from local entropy
6353 2013-03-12 22:41:09 <gmaxwell> thus my full support.
6354 2013-03-12 22:41:35 <joe_k> afaik default random is MT19936 seeded from system random
6355 2013-03-12 22:41:53 <joe_k> er, mt19937
6356 2013-03-12 22:42:10 theymos has joined
6357 2013-03-12 22:42:19 <gmaxwell> joe_k: thats my recolletion, well I dunno what it's seeded from
6358 2013-03-12 22:42:23 <MK`> Part of the reason I chose the ` was because it wasn't as visible on non-fixed-width fonts, X)
6359 2013-03-12 22:42:25 <gmaxwell> I would have guessed _time_.
6360 2013-03-12 22:42:41 <joe_k> oh really
6361 2013-03-12 22:42:42 <joe_k> lets see
6362 2013-03-12 22:42:51 <neofutur> MK`: thats also why scammers prefer ` to - or _ ;(
6363 2013-03-12 22:43:05 <MK`> Yeah
6364 2013-03-12 22:43:10 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6365 2013-03-12 22:43:14 <warren> lucky IRC doesn't allow unicode
6366 2013-03-12 22:43:36 <gmaxwell> ιτ δοεσν·τ?
6367 2013-03-12 22:43:42 i2pRelay has joined
6368 2013-03-12 22:43:50 <MK`> I am on another network that allows unicode names heh
6369 2013-03-12 22:43:52 <Scrat> w̶̡̱͚͎̠̘̹͕͇̘͔̼͔ͦ̍ͪͬ̈́͊͡͞ạ̴̢̛̯̜͙͇͖͔͈̳͎͔͚͕̹̝̏͊̄̅ͨ͊̔ͪͣ͆̿̔́͂͜͞r͖̹̰̠͕̬͔̤̹͈͈̘̦̫̻ͬ̍̎́̚͠r̢̪̮̭̩͖͕͙͙̂̇̌͠e̷͕̦͕͇͓͋̑͊̄ͧ̓̈́ͬͨ̕͞n̢̬̤͈̯͎͐̇ͥ͊͋̋̓̔ͪ̾͗͐̾̕
6370 2013-03-12 22:43:53 vbuterin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
6371 2013-03-12 22:44:01 <MK`> it's korean, you can put almost anything in your nick
6372 2013-03-12 22:44:05 <warren> (as nicknames)
6373 2013-03-12 22:44:08 Eleuthria has joined
6374 2013-03-12 22:44:09 <tjader> warren: IRC says nothing about encoding.
6375 2013-03-12 22:44:14 FredEE has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
6376 2013-03-12 22:44:14 <Scrat> IRCX does!
6377 2013-03-12 22:44:37 one_zero has joined
6378 2013-03-12 22:44:38 <joe_k> gmaxwell: default seed source is os.urandom
6379 2013-03-12 22:44:48 <joe_k> http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/e1e5423815a4/Lib/random.py
6380 2013-03-12 22:45:01 <HLL> What's the status regarding the fix? will 8.1 be matched to 7's logic? (Was there a bug in 7's logic?)
6381 2013-03-12 22:45:15 swappermall has joined
6382 2013-03-12 22:45:33 <warren> [12:24] == テスト Erroneous Nickname
6383 2013-03-12 22:45:37 swappermall is now known as Guest61183
6384 2013-03-12 22:45:40 <joe_k> gmaxwell: unlessssss.... os.urandom throws notimplemented, then its time.time() :)
6385 2013-03-12 22:45:49 <sipa> HLL: 0.7 (and earlier) have a default limit on the number of lock objects that can be acquired simultaneous in the database
6386 2013-03-12 22:45:58 Bootcan has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
6387 2013-03-12 22:46:16 <sipa> HLL: which blocks with many transactions spending from many different input transactions seem to trigger
6388 2013-03-12 22:46:26 <sipa> 0.8.1 will indeed mimic 0.7
6389 2013-03-12 22:46:27 Guest1000 has left ()
6390 2013-03-12 22:46:27 <Luke-Jr> HLL: 0.7's logic is king, but doesn't scale
6391 2013-03-12 22:46:29 <tjader> Actually, it seems IRC does restrict characters in nicknames.
6392 2013-03-12 22:46:35 tyn has joined
6393 2013-03-12 22:46:43 <warren> tjader: <warren> [12:24] == テスト Erroneous Nickname
6394 2013-03-12 22:46:52 <HLL> So any ideas how to gradually overcome this limit?
6395 2013-03-12 22:46:54 <tjader> warren: I assumed the server implementation was the one blocking it, not the protocol itself.
6396 2013-03-12 22:47:03 <Luke-Jr> I don't think we have consensus yet, but IMO 0.8.1 should mimic 0.7 and also have a scheduled hardfork
6397 2013-03-12 22:47:13 <MK`> Try on the other server I go to, purple.hanirc.org
6398 2013-03-12 22:47:14 <Luke-Jr> HLL: can't gradually do this
6399 2013-03-12 22:47:18 <HLL> protocols usually don't have locks
6400 2013-03-12 22:47:21 <warren> Luke-Jr: how far out scheduled?
6401 2013-03-12 22:47:30 <Luke-Jr> warren: undecided yet
6402 2013-03-12 22:47:31 <sipa> warren: TBD
6403 2013-03-12 22:47:33 <HLL> so we'r stuck on 'low tx count blocks'?
6404 2013-03-12 22:47:35 <tjader> MK`: if it allows unicode on nicks it's not properly compliant ;)
6405 2013-03-12 22:47:38 <MK`> heh
6406 2013-03-12 22:48:07 <MK`> the character encoding is CP949
6407 2013-03-12 22:48:13 <sipa> HLL: bitcoin is a consensus system; the 'correct' rules of the system (whether they are buggy or not) are defined by the rules enforced by the nodes on the network
6408 2013-03-12 22:48:16 <Luke-Jr> MK`: IRC's is 7-bit ASCII
6409 2013-03-12 22:48:25 <MK`> yeah
6410 2013-03-12 22:48:31 <joe_k> mmm utf7
6411 2013-03-12 22:48:42 <epylar> so is it true there was a non-trivial double spend attack during the fork?
6412 2013-03-12 22:48:45 <sipa> HLL: BDB-based bitcoind implementations therefor unintentionally added a rule to the network limiting the number of affected transactions per blocks
6413 2013-03-12 22:48:50 <sipa> epylar: yes
6414 2013-03-12 22:49:00 <tjader> Luke-Jr: for the messages the encoding is not specified.
6415 2013-03-12 22:49:05 <sipa> epylar: though i wouldn't call it attack as it wasn't malicious
6416 2013-03-12 22:49:10 <tjader> ASCII is usually assumed, though.
6417 2013-03-12 22:49:11 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it wasn't?
6418 2013-03-12 22:49:24 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I heard the guy is refusing to return it unless the victim does <x>
6419 2013-03-12 22:49:33 <sipa> Luke-Jr: oh, didn't know that
6420 2013-03-12 22:49:36 <ahf> Hm. I am working on a Bitcoin client and I am currently working on the script logic. Is there any tests other than the ones that comes from Bitcoin-qt available for me to look at? I tried to glare over some of the other clients, but couldn't find anything.
6421 2013-03-12 22:49:37 <HLL> So the buttom line is yes..? it's limited and won't scale this early in bitcoin's life?
6422 2013-03-12 22:49:37 <gwillen> HLL: keep in mind, 'low' tx count is actually quite high
6423 2013-03-12 22:49:52 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: is he wanting to test how civil litigation works with a bitcoin doublespend?
6424 2013-03-12 22:49:53 one_zero has quit ()
6425 2013-03-12 22:50:01 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: he sure is committed to the spirit of testing!
6426 2013-03-12 22:50:03 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that'd be interesting
6427 2013-03-12 22:50:05 <gwillen> HLL: I don't know what the count was in the block that triggered it, but there was only one offending block, even with multiple large blocks being produced
6428 2013-03-12 22:50:25 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: think it'd be evil to encourage the victim to go that route? XD
6429 2013-03-12 22:50:40 koinandable has left ("Leaving")
6430 2013-03-12 22:50:49 <epylar> at least we're past the point where it's treated like world of warcraft gold
6431 2013-03-12 22:50:50 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it would likely cost the victim more than their recovery but would be good to get done.
6432 2013-03-12 22:51:02 <warren> gmaxwell: +1
6433 2013-03-12 22:51:09 <HLL> Ok so all information is not available yet, you mean other blocks under this magnitude was accepted by 0.7's
6434 2013-03-12 22:51:11 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6435 2013-03-12 22:51:17 <sipa> HLL: indeed
6436 2013-03-12 22:51:18 <HLL> *were
6437 2013-03-12 22:51:27 <warren> gmaxwell: the attacker is identifiable I'm guessing?
6438 2013-03-12 22:51:30 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: think the EFF would care to help? :P
6439 2013-03-12 22:51:33 <gwillen> HLL: it's possible that someone know what the exact limit is, but I don't. But I know it's likely to be quite high and will not immediately cause scaling problems.
6440 2013-03-12 22:51:36 <Luke-Jr> warren: he's bragging :P
6441 2013-03-12 22:51:41 i2pRelay has joined
6442 2013-03-12 22:51:45 <MK`> ok I am changing my name
6443 2013-03-12 22:51:48 MK` is now known as MKCoin
6444 2013-03-12 22:52:06 <MKCoin> Not going to spend an hour thinking of a good name.
6445 2013-03-12 22:52:06 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: dunno. it would make an excellent test case if the guy is an adult in the US who can be identified.
6446 2013-03-12 22:52:23 one_zero has joined
6447 2013-03-12 22:52:37 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: because the attack was so obviously intentional and of an amount large enough to be non-trivial.
6448 2013-03-12 22:53:12 <Luke-Jr> I wonder if the Foundation can get behind it too
6449 2013-03-12 22:53:16 perezd has quit (Quit: perezd)
6450 2013-03-12 22:53:47 <joe_k> my bitcoin dir is 14GB. is that sparsely allocated?
6451 2013-03-12 22:53:58 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, btc-e is run by a russian guy iirc
6452 2013-03-12 22:54:03 <TheSeven> joe_k: pretty surely not
6453 2013-03-12 22:54:04 <Luke-Jr> joe_k: use du to find real size
6454 2013-03-12 22:54:07 <phantomcircuit> i doubt he will be pursuing legal action
6455 2013-03-12 22:54:08 <sipa> joe_k: no, but there is a part hardlinked, so counted twice
6456 2013-03-12 22:54:08 <joe_k> on windows
6457 2013-03-12 22:54:10 <gmaxwell> joe_k: there are hardlinks.
6458 2013-03-12 22:54:10 <joe_k> its not
6459 2013-03-12 22:54:16 <joe_k> size on disk is very near file size
6460 2013-03-12 22:54:19 geertj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6461 2013-03-12 22:54:20 <gmaxwell> joe_k: _sigh_
6462 2013-03-12 22:54:30 <gmaxwell> joe_k: windows tools are totally confused by the hardlinks there.
6463 2013-03-12 22:54:35 <sipa> joe_k: windows deals very badly with counting the size of hardlinked files
6464 2013-03-12 22:54:37 <gmaxwell> but they're still really hardlinks.
6465 2013-03-12 22:54:45 <joe_k> didnt know if bdb/or whatever the google one is uses mmap and sparse files
6466 2013-03-12 22:54:57 <sipa> joe_k: anyway, you can delete the blkindex.dat, blk0001.dat and blk0002.dat files
6467 2013-03-12 22:54:59 <joe_k> leveldb
6468 2013-03-12 22:55:02 <PRab> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896651.aspx
6469 2013-03-12 22:55:03 <sipa> joe_k: _not_ those inside blocks/ though
6470 2013-03-12 22:55:10 <K1773R> joe_k: du -sh .bitcoin         7.0G	.bitcoin
6471 2013-03-12 22:55:15 <joe_k> oh is that the pre-0.8 BDB files?
6472 2013-03-12 22:55:16 <sipa> joe_k: if you don't intend to return to 0.7
6473 2013-03-12 22:55:19 <jrmithdobbs> joe_k: bdb does, not sure about leveldb's details but p sure it at least uses mmap, don't think sparse is helpful though
6474 2013-03-12 22:55:26 <PRab> joe_k: this tells you more info on HardLinks.
6475 2013-03-12 22:55:32 <RoboTeddy> would it be possible to stop confirming transactions in the event of a major fork? (and maybe ask the user which fork they want to trust?)
6476 2013-03-12 22:55:37 <Eleuthria> I'm a little out of the loop, did I scan the last couple pages correctly and read there was a successful attack during the fork?
6477 2013-03-12 22:55:38 <gmaxwell> joe_k: yes and they're hardlinked. But you're not going to believe us, so feel free to just delete them but not the one in the blocks/ directory.
6478 2013-03-12 22:55:40 <sipa> leveldb's files are append-only; sparse files doesn't make sense
6479 2013-03-12 22:55:40 <joe_k> i dont even know if windows supports sparse files. i think it zero-fills upon extend
6480 2013-03-12 22:55:51 Lowflow has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931])
6481 2013-03-12 22:55:57 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: what i figured
6482 2013-03-12 22:56:13 <sipa> joe_k: it does
6483 2013-03-12 22:56:35 <jrmithdobbs> joe_k: ntfs does support it but you need to use a special api iirc? (hopefully that's changed)
6484 2013-03-12 22:56:39 <theymos> Why doesn't Bitcoin use symlinks. Windows handles those correctly IIRC.
6485 2013-03-12 22:56:47 <MKCoin> neofutur: better?
6486 2013-03-12 22:56:51 <joe_k> it handles hardlinks. not symlinks
6487 2013-03-12 22:56:53 <sipa> theymos: windows handles hardlinks correctly too
6488 2013-03-12 22:56:57 lb4956 has joined
6489 2013-03-12 22:56:59 <joe_k> windows has shortcut files - those aren't links
6490 2013-03-12 22:57:05 <joe_k> they are just shell metadata files
6491 2013-03-12 22:57:11 fydel has quit ()
6492 2013-03-12 22:57:12 <sipa> theymos: its tools just don't deal well with them
6493 2013-03-12 22:57:18 <epylar> Eleuthtria: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1a5um4/bitcointalk_a_successful_double_spend_us10000/
6494 2013-03-12 22:57:21 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: reports of CoinLab's pool being broken - who to contact?
6495 2013-03-12 22:57:24 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: it's just explorer in some versions and almost all 3rd party file utils don't know how to interpret the metadata because windows devs don't know what a link is
6496 2013-03-12 22:57:39 <Eleuthria> epylar:  Thank you
6497 2013-03-12 22:57:40 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: so it looks 2x as big
6498 2013-03-12 22:57:44 <joe_k> you can get an explorer extension to make them. python can make them afaik, so its in the posix api
6499 2013-03-12 22:57:47 <jrmithdobbs> "looks"
6500 2013-03-12 22:58:24 BTCTrader2 has joined
6501 2013-03-12 22:58:56 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
6502 2013-03-12 22:59:14 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6503 2013-03-12 22:59:43 i2pRelay has joined
6504 2013-03-12 23:00:36 digbit_ has joined
6505 2013-03-12 23:00:40 digbit_ has quit (Client Quit)
6506 2013-03-12 23:00:51 e-v-o has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6507 2013-03-12 23:01:26 <MC-Droid> is that guy giving his coin horde back
6508 2013-03-12 23:01:29 <theymos> My version of Windows does count symlink size correctly. Might be nice for Bitcoin to use symlinks instead of hardlinks just to avoid confusing people.
6509 2013-03-12 23:01:44 <sipa> theymos: meh, one-time upgrade issue
6510 2013-03-12 23:02:07 * TheSeven laughs about "No money was lost and no double spend has been permanently accepted into any blockchain. There are not two transactions in the same blockchain with the same input" - People apparently dont't get that the latter is simply not possible, and that what we've seen is what developers usually refer to as a double spend... or am I wrong?
6511 2013-03-12 23:02:23 <midnightmagic> you are not wrong.
6512 2013-03-12 23:02:56 <epylar> yeah, a double spend means one each on two forks
6513 2013-03-12 23:02:58 <epylar> er, two fork branches
6514 2013-03-12 23:03:03 <K1773R> joe_k: since when is pythin a "posix API"?
6515 2013-03-12 23:03:10 <K1773R> s/pythin/python/
6516 2013-03-12 23:03:11 digbit has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
6517 2013-03-12 23:03:15 free__ has joined
6518 2013-03-12 23:03:18 <sipa> TheSeven: a double spend attack is better called a transaction reversion attack
6519 2013-03-12 23:03:37 <sipa> unless there are two separate chains, and we're talking about a spend in each
6520 2013-03-12 23:03:40 <linguinho> Where can I watch the double spends out than blockchain.info ?
6521 2013-03-12 23:03:51 <HLL> gwillen, I See the new post on bitcoin talk, it says : "failed to validate the block 225433 due to an inability to handle the number of tx inputs". If I Do understand what is written here, and if it is true, I'm calm :)
6522 2013-03-12 23:03:53 <epylar> this of course is why there were warnings to merchants not to accept transactions as confirmed until the more permanent fork won
6523 2013-03-12 23:03:54 <jrmithdobbs> linguinho: the p2p network
6524 2013-03-12 23:04:07 <TheSeven> sipa: does a 0-confirmation transaction qualify for that definition as well?
6525 2013-03-12 23:04:17 emryss has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
6526 2013-03-12 23:04:20 <TheSeven> (that gets dropped from the mempool on all nodes without being mined)
6527 2013-03-12 23:04:21 <gwillen> HLL: good :-)
6528 2013-03-12 23:04:41 <jrmithdobbs> TheSeven: of course not, the system provides zero assurances for zero conf transactions
6529 2013-03-12 23:04:51 <linguinho> jrmithdobbs: In what software?
6530 2013-03-12 23:05:16 <MKCoin> linguinho: http://blockchain.info/double-spends though it seems down for me
6531 2013-03-12 23:05:17 <jrmithdobbs> linguinho: there's a couple tools but nothing that just "does it"
6532 2013-03-12 23:05:26 <PRab> Does it make sense to raise the recommended number of confirmation from 6 to something larger than 50?
6533 2013-03-12 23:05:31 <jrmithdobbs> no
6534 2013-03-12 23:05:39 <MC-Droid> cant say people havnt been warned about that at length for 4 years now
6535 2013-03-12 23:05:48 <linguinho> MKCoin: for me too
6536 2013-03-12 23:06:05 <warren> Hazards of relying on blockchain wallet.
6537 2013-03-12 23:06:13 meLon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6538 2013-03-12 23:06:22 <linguinho> jrmithdobbs: Any tool like blockchain.info?
6539 2013-03-12 23:06:23 <HLL> I Truly don't understand all of these different ideas regarding trustable 0 conf txs... The whole idea of bt is the blockchain...
6540 2013-03-12 23:06:26 <Scrat> MKCoin: DDoS'd
6541 2013-03-12 23:06:30 <MKCoin> ah
6542 2013-03-12 23:06:45 <sipa> you can trust a 0-conf transaction if you trust the sender
6543 2013-03-12 23:06:50 xyz has joined
6544 2013-03-12 23:06:51 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
6545 2013-03-12 23:06:58 <warren> PRab: # of confirmations + watch a variety of bitcoind's for consistency maybe
6546 2013-03-12 23:07:00 <jrmithdobbs> linguinho: there's gavin's python stuff and jgarzik's better python stuff that has all the bits but not put together
6547 2013-03-12 23:07:03 <jrmithdobbs> linguinho: so no
6548 2013-03-12 23:07:06 <Scrat> or green addresses, sipa's favorite
6549 2013-03-12 23:07:07 <TheSeven> jrmithdobbs: so, in your opinion, it's a "mined transaction reversal attack"?
6550 2013-03-12 23:07:08 <jrmithdobbs> linguinho: not that I'm aware of
6551 2013-03-12 23:07:18 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6552 2013-03-12 23:07:22 <jrmithdobbs> TheSeven: what
6553 2013-03-12 23:07:26 <HLL> I Guess u could , u could also trust the sender when he says 'ill transfer it later' if u trust him...
6554 2013-03-12 23:07:41 <PRab> warren: sounds better to me. Even better multiple implementation (bitcoinj once its up to snuff)
6555 2013-03-12 23:07:44 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
6556 2013-03-12 23:07:46 <TheSeven> jrmithdobbs: what is colloquially called a double spend
6557 2013-03-12 23:07:50 i2pRelay has joined
6558 2013-03-12 23:07:53 <jrmithdobbs> TheSeven: in my opinion it's a failure (assuming they lost anything, i'm confused on th edetails) of btc-e's sanity checking code
6559 2013-03-12 23:07:57 <jrmithdobbs> nothing more nothing less
6560 2013-03-12 23:07:58 <jrmithdobbs> the system worked
6561 2013-03-12 23:07:58 emryss has joined
6562 2013-03-12 23:08:04 <TheSeven> there seem to be wildly varying definitions of "double spend" out there
6563 2013-03-12 23:08:21 <neofutur> MKCoin: yup thanks, I ll have less highlights ;)
6564 2013-03-12 23:08:27 ikeewee has joined
6565 2013-03-12 23:08:37 <Scrat> but thats a double spend caused by a mempool drop
6566 2013-03-12 23:08:42 <PRab> I am just a little concerned that on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ it says "Only 6 blocks or 1 hour is enough to make reversal computationally impractical."
6567 2013-03-12 23:08:55 <warren> I wonder how functional blockchain wallet is in "offline mode"
6568 2013-03-12 23:08:55 <jrmithdobbs> that statement has not changed
6569 2013-03-12 23:08:59 <epylar> PRab: unless there's a 51% attack
6570 2013-03-12 23:09:03 <PRab> Last night we proved that it was hard but not impossible.
6571 2013-03-12 23:09:06 <epylar> which there technically was with the 0.7 switch
6572 2013-03-12 23:09:10 manet has joined
6573 2013-03-12 23:09:11 <jrmithdobbs> PRab: incorrect
6574 2013-03-12 23:09:59 <jrmithdobbs> PRab: last night showed nothing except that major community members are willing to work together to solve things quickly instead of "living with" an accidental hard form
6575 2013-03-12 23:10:02 <jrmithdobbs> fork*
6576 2013-03-12 23:10:03 <TheSeven> anyway, with transaction volume being limited and no-fee transactions getting dropped, it will become more and more risky to accept zero confirmation transactions
6577 2013-03-12 23:10:08 <jrmithdobbs> it showed nothing else
6578 2013-03-12 23:10:13 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (away!~PiZZaMaN2@unaffiliated/pizzaman2k|Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
6579 2013-03-12 23:10:18 Sevein_ is now known as Sevein
6580 2013-03-12 23:10:20 xyz has quit (Client Quit)
6581 2013-03-12 23:10:26 <Luke-Jr> jrmithdobbs: it showed a hardfork is necessary sooner rather than late
6582 2013-03-12 23:10:27 Sevein has quit (Changing host)
6583 2013-03-12 23:10:27 Sevein has joined
6584 2013-03-12 23:10:31 <PRab> jrmithdobbs: The core devs were able to convince enough computing power to switch back to the .7 fork. That in turn led to the reversal of ~25 blocks.
6585 2013-03-12 23:10:45 <PRab> Luke-Jr: exactly
6586 2013-03-12 23:10:49 <Luke-Jr> PRab: 25 INVALID blocks
6587 2013-03-12 23:10:49 <epylar> which you can always do with enough computing power.
6588 2013-03-12 23:11:04 <epylar> well, invalid according to one client; valid according to another.
6589 2013-03-12 23:11:06 <PRab> Luke-Jr: you are correct, my bad.
6590 2013-03-12 23:11:15 <tjader> Luke-Jr: why invalid?
6591 2013-03-12 23:11:24 <MC-Droid> they were valid
6592 2013-03-12 23:11:25 <sipa> "history is written by the victor" - those 25 blocks are only invalid looking back
6593 2013-03-12 23:11:30 <tjader> ^
6594 2013-03-12 23:11:30 <jrmithdobbs> PRab: the "INVALID" bit is what broke things, under normal circumstances the statement you referenced still holds
6595 2013-03-12 23:11:38 <MC-Droid> saying theyre invalid was a value judgement
6596 2013-03-12 23:11:52 nicocesar has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
6597 2013-03-12 23:11:53 <tjader> While they were in the longest chain they were valid.
6598 2013-03-12 23:11:56 <epylar> they were 0.8-valid
6599 2013-03-12 23:11:59 <Luke-Jr> they were invalid.
6600 2013-03-12 23:12:01 <sipa> they are invalid by the rules the cummunity _afterwards_ decided to use
6601 2013-03-12 23:12:03 <epylar> they are now invalid because tehy lost.
6602 2013-03-12 23:12:12 <tjader> Luke-Jr: please ellaborate.
6603 2013-03-12 23:12:21 <jrmithdobbs> they were invalid due to previously unknown protocol limitations that were not being adequately enforced in newer versions
6604 2013-03-12 23:12:27 <Luke-Jr> sipa: if any other client decided to make blocks bitcoind 0.7 rejected, would there be any second-guessing?
6605 2013-03-12 23:12:29 <TheSeven> they are invalid by the rules that the community has been using for ages
6606 2013-03-12 23:12:38 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: exactly!
6607 2013-03-12 23:12:43 <TheSeven> and that had been inadvertently changed, because nobody was aware of their existence
6608 2013-03-12 23:12:48 <Eleuthria> jrmithdobbs: It wasn't a protocol limitation.  It was an uknown dependency bug.
6609 2013-03-12 23:12:53 manet_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
6610 2013-03-12 23:12:53 <epylar> but when we decide to make a protocol breaking change, on purpose, it will be 'valid'
6611 2013-03-12 23:12:53 ykzktn has quit (Quit: Leaving)
6612 2013-03-12 23:12:56 <Eleuthria> 0.8 blocks adhered to the protocol just fine.
6613 2013-03-12 23:12:57 <epylar> it's a judgment call and it's based on who 'wins'
6614 2013-03-12 23:13:14 <jrmithdobbs> Eleuthria: it is was an unknown protocol limitation enforced by the reference client's implementation details
6615 2013-03-12 23:13:23 <tjader> Yeah, it seems to me it was 0.7 that was misimplementing the protocol.
6616 2013-03-12 23:13:29 <PRab> Either way, I would still feel more comfortable if the recommendation to merchants was increased from 6 to something larger.
6617 2013-03-12 23:13:36 <jrmithdobbs> Eleuthria: not claiming it was an inntentional limitation, but it is a protocol limitation.
6618 2013-03-12 23:13:41 <Eleuthria> 0.8 followed the protocol.  0.7 did not.
6619 2013-03-12 23:13:48 <sipa> Eleuthria: well, i say 0.7 was buggy because it didn't do what is was intended to do; but 0.8 was the one that was incorrect, as it did not implement the rules followed by the network
6620 2013-03-12 23:13:50 <TheSeven> Eleuthria: maybe to the protocol specification, not to its actual implementation up to 0.7
6621 2013-03-12 23:13:52 <sipa> Eleuthria: i disagree
6622 2013-03-12 23:14:02 <Eleuthria> The protocol did not define that limitation.
6623 2013-03-12 23:14:02 <sipa> Eleuthria: the protocol is defined by what the network enforces
6624 2013-03-12 23:14:02 <lianj> Eleuthria: but now the bug in .7 became the new protocol
6625 2013-03-12 23:14:09 <Luke-Jr> Eleuthria: no, 0.7 *defined* the protocol
6626 2013-03-12 23:14:12 <tjader> jrmithdobbs: what is prescriptive?The protocol description or the implementation?
6627 2013-03-12 23:14:12 <epylar> sipa: only incorrect once it started losing
6628 2013-03-12 23:14:12 <MKCoin> "not being completely backwards compatible with 0.7" is a bug, in my perspective.
6629 2013-03-12 23:14:24 <sipa> epylar: winning/losing has nothing to do with it
6630 2013-03-12 23:14:41 <Luke-Jr> tjader: when we realized what was going on, the recommendation to merchants we could reach was to ignore all confirms
6631 2013-03-12 23:14:44 <PRab> .7 had an implementation bug. .8 had a backwards compatibility bug. BOTH had bugs.
6632 2013-03-12 23:14:51 <epylar> well, incorrect in the larger sense in that there were many clients out there that would never recognize it as valid.
6633 2013-03-12 23:15:01 <MC-Droid> it was a bug but now its in the protocol
6634 2013-03-12 23:15:02 <TheSeven> PRab: not just .7, everything <.8
6635 2013-03-12 23:15:07 <TheSeven> probably back to the very beginning
6636 2013-03-12 23:15:08 <epylar> but a similar scenario would come up if a protocol change needed to be rolled out that would fork the chain on purpose.
6637 2013-03-12 23:15:09 <tjader> Luke-Jr: ?
6638 2013-03-12 23:15:13 <jrmithdobbs> tjader: the consensus of the network says it is a protocol limitation
6639 2013-03-12 23:15:15 <MC-Droid> its like im really in a microsoft staff meeting
6640 2013-03-12 23:15:17 <jrmithdobbs> tjader: the cause is irrelevent
6641 2013-03-12 23:15:21 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6642 2013-03-12 23:15:27 <Luke-Jr> tjader: MtGox, Coinbase, and BitPay (at least) were contacted and froze deposits
6643 2013-03-12 23:15:34 <HLL> LOL
6644 2013-03-12 23:15:41 <tjader> jrmithdobbs: I agree it's invalid now.
6645 2013-03-12 23:15:46 <tjader> Luke-Jr: why are you telling me that?
6646 2013-03-12 23:15:49 <warren> Luke-Jr: would it be too confusing for future sophisticated merchants to accept confirmations if they are sufficiently deep on both forks?  they're pretty safe no?
6647 2013-03-12 23:15:52 i2pRelay has joined
6648 2013-03-12 23:15:55 <jrmithdobbs> tjader: it was invalid at the time too, just unforeseen
6649 2013-03-12 23:16:04 <epylar> i think as long as we agree on a definition of valid, the question becomes easy to answer
6650 2013-03-12 23:16:06 <jrmithdobbs> tjader: or we wouldn't have ended up with a hard fork
6651 2013-03-12 23:16:12 <tjader> So, there's no protocol specification other than the client's implementation?
6652 2013-03-12 23:16:16 <RoboTeddy> if merchants need to go by more than the "wait for 6 confirmations" rule, we should probably write up what protocol they should follow
6653 2013-03-12 23:16:31 <Luke-Jr> tjader: correct
6654 2013-03-12 23:16:33 <sipa> tjader: there may or may not be a protocol specification, but it cannot be authorative
6655 2013-03-12 23:16:39 <TheSeven> RoboTeddy: 6 confirmations is fine as long as the network behaves normally
6656 2013-03-12 23:16:44 hanti is now known as HANTI
6657 2013-03-12 23:16:46 <tjader> Okay, that makes it clearer.
6658 2013-03-12 23:16:52 <sipa> tjader: i would certainly hope we one day have one, and that it matches reality as good as possible
6659 2013-03-12 23:16:56 <TheSeven> merchants should probably detect forking conditions and just stop doing *anything* until manual intervention
6660 2013-03-12 23:17:06 canadian_stig has quit ()
6661 2013-03-12 23:17:07 <RoboTeddy> TheSeven: right, but merchants need to know what to do in the event the network isn't behaving normally -- otherwise they can get into trouble in a case like this one
6662 2013-03-12 23:17:07 <epylar> theseven: denial of service attack
6663 2013-03-12 23:17:13 <midnightmagic> tjader: Correct. Additionally, a specification, as this fork demonstrates, will almost certainly fail to include information about limits imposed by the libraries or code used.
6664 2013-03-12 23:17:18 <sipa> tjader: but if the specification would disagree with ~all of the network full nodes, it will be the specification that is wrong
6665 2013-03-12 23:17:22 alexwaters has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
6666 2013-03-12 23:17:22 <tjader> I was under the impression that there was a protocol specification and that 0.7's implementation was faulty.
6667 2013-03-12 23:17:24 <gmaxwell> TheSeven: well, fine for what? I wouldn't do 100,000 btc for cash to anonymous party on 6 confirms.
6668 2013-03-12 23:17:28 <PRab> TheSeven: But when the network isn't behaving is the most critical moments.
6669 2013-03-12 23:17:28 drapetomano has quit (Quit: Page closed)
6670 2013-03-12 23:17:30 <tjader> sipa: indeed.
6671 2013-03-12 23:17:32 alexwaters has joined
6672 2013-03-12 23:17:35 <MC-Droid> has anyone though about actually documenting the protocol rfc style
6673 2013-03-12 23:17:35 <RoboTeddy> TheSeven: right, that'd make sense. maybe we should publish that advice to merchants? to stop confirming transactions in event of major fork?
6674 2013-03-12 23:17:39 <sipa> tjader: 0.7 had a bug because it did not what we thought it did
6675 2013-03-12 23:17:48 <sipa> tjader: but it still defined the rules
6676 2013-03-12 23:17:50 <jrmithdobbs> MC-Droid: it is partially on the wiki
6677 2013-03-12 23:17:54 <tjader> But wouldn't mean that the blocks in the shorter branch are invalid per se.
6678 2013-03-12 23:17:59 <MC-Droid> ah
6679 2013-03-12 23:18:03 <gmaxwell> tjader: no.
6680 2013-03-12 23:18:04 <epylar> roboteddy: this would make a denial of service attack possible with substantially less than 50% of hashing power
6681 2013-03-12 23:18:05 <jrmithdobbs> MC-Droid: this was a *previously unknown* limitation caused by defaults bdb
6682 2013-03-12 23:18:06 <TheSeven> tjader: not 0.7's implementation, the implementation in every single version prior to 0.8 from what it looks like
6683 2013-03-12 23:18:11 <jrmithdobbs> defaults in bdb*
6684 2013-03-12 23:18:19 <gmaxwell> tjader: and the software itself is the specification.
6685 2013-03-12 23:18:29 <tjader> gmaxwell: I got that.
6686 2013-03-12 23:18:34 <gmaxwell> tjader: and there was nothing wrong with that branch— it was perfectly acceptable to 0.8 too.
6687 2013-03-12 23:18:40 <jrmithdobbs> MC-Droid: but effects enough old version that is a protocol limitation by consensus
6688 2013-03-12 23:18:41 <MC-Droid> i know
6689 2013-03-12 23:18:42 <tjader> I know.
6690 2013-03-12 23:18:43 <RoboTeddy> epylar: I guess then there's a choice between DoS and the possibility of double spends, and merchants should decide which they're more comfortable with. But they probably need to be educated on the choice
6691 2013-03-12 23:19:09 <MC-Droid> so close to getting shot of berkerly
6692 2013-03-12 23:19:10 <gmaxwell> tjader: well you just said "blocks in the shorter branch are invalid per se" oh you mean in the currently shorter (0.8) branch?
6693 2013-03-12 23:19:23 <TheSeven> RoboTeddy: maybe we should add something to the client that attempts to detect forking conditions and provides a clear indicator to whatever code is running on top of it (along with alerts, while we're at it)
6694 2013-03-12 23:19:28 <tjader> gmaxwell: "that doesn't mean that" was right before that.
6695 2013-03-12 23:19:40 <jrmithdobbs> TheSeven: said code exists
6696 2013-03-12 23:19:40 <gmaxwell> sorry, long day.
6697 2013-03-12 23:19:41 <tjader> A paraphrase of it, nonetheless
6698 2013-03-12 23:19:47 bibbybob has quit (Quit: Leaving)
6699 2013-03-12 23:19:51 <jrmithdobbs> TheSeven: and is enabled. the .7 users saw it yesterday
6700 2013-03-12 23:19:52 <tjader> gmaxwell: I could have been clearer.
6701 2013-03-12 23:19:59 <RoboTeddy> I think it might make sense to speak of chain validity as a function of time. I.e., at time t, chain X was valid; at time t+10, chain
6702 2013-03-12 23:20:03 <jrmithdobbs> TheSeven: the nature of the bug caused the .8 users to not
6703 2013-03-12 23:20:05 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
6704 2013-03-12 23:20:09 <TheSeven> jrmithdobbs: I don't think it's sufficiently exposed through the RPC api
6705 2013-03-12 23:20:21 fathead has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
6706 2013-03-12 23:20:21 <jrmithdobbs> TheSeven: really? cause it's in getinfo
6707 2013-03-12 23:20:26 <theymos> An RPC call that tells you whether a high-priority alert has been issued would be useful for merchants IMO.
6708 2013-03-12 23:20:35 <jrmithdobbs> there is one
6709 2013-03-12 23:20:36 <epylar> roboteddy: or at time T, what a given client will tell you the transaction history looks like
6710 2013-03-12 23:20:38 <jrmithdobbs> it's in getinfo
6711 2013-03-12 23:20:41 <jrmithdobbs> what are you talking about
6712 2013-03-12 23:20:45 <TheSeven> jrmithdobbs: not just alerts, but rather some kind of network stability indicator that looks for forks as well
6713 2013-03-12 23:21:12 <RoboTeddy> it seems important that merchants know when there is a major fork, and what their options are
6714 2013-03-12 23:21:13 <tjader> RoboTeddy: I think we should use different words for whether a block is valid and whether a chain is the longest and therefore correct
6715 2013-03-12 23:21:18 <TheSeven> and complains about *any* forks, even if it thinks that it's on the right side of it
6716 2013-03-12 23:21:18 <jrmithdobbs> so you want alerts for when your alerts fail to alert the alerting parties to alert you
6717 2013-03-12 23:21:21 <jrmithdobbs> shut up
6718 2013-03-12 23:21:25 <flyingkiwiguy> something similar to http://www.sans.org/ perhaps?
6719 2013-03-12 23:21:25 Hasimir- has joined
6720 2013-03-12 23:21:25 <TheSeven> (which is the 0.8 condition)
6721 2013-03-12 23:21:28 <jrmithdobbs> sorry for being rude, but seriously, that's stupid
6722 2013-03-12 23:21:32 <theymos> jrmithdobbs: The "errors" field in getinfo doesn't give you the priority of the alert, so merchants can't safely shut down when it's non-empty. It could be something like the Feb 20 warning.
6723 2013-03-12 23:21:48 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: now that's a valid observation
6724 2013-03-12 23:21:48 RBecker is now known as rbecker
6725 2013-03-12 23:21:54 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: maybe that should be looked at
6726 2013-03-12 23:22:00 <epylar> there is a safe mode that triggers when a major problem is detected
6727 2013-03-12 23:22:13 <jrmithdobbs> to distinguish from detected hard forks / reorgs / alert key messages
6728 2013-03-12 23:22:18 <TheSeven> epylar: but apparently it didn't consider this a major problem
6729 2013-03-12 23:22:22 alexwaters has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
6730 2013-03-12 23:22:53 <TheSeven> it should probably consider every fork a problem that is at least 3 blocks long and forked less than 100 blocks in the past or something
6731 2013-03-12 23:23:10 <MC-Droid> ungrateful bastards whining about "amateur" devs on the forum is giving me the rageface
6732 2013-03-12 23:23:19 <TheSeven> effectively making it ignore <5% fractions of very ancient clients getting forked out
6733 2013-03-12 23:23:24 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6734 2013-03-12 23:23:33 <pjorrit_> forum is full of idiots, ignore them
6735 2013-03-12 23:23:40 CaptainBlaze has joined
6736 2013-03-12 23:23:43 Hasimir has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
6737 2013-03-12 23:23:44 <TheSeven> MC-Droid: those whole forums are giving me a rageface, which is why I'm not reading them anymore since about a year
6738 2013-03-12 23:23:48 <jrmithdobbs> MC-Droid: they're tards, noone here even pretends those people are worth listening to ;p
6739 2013-03-12 23:23:53 i2pRelay has joined
6740 2013-03-12 23:24:17 JDuke128 has joined
6741 2013-03-12 23:24:21 <MC-Droid> he says "i could do better if i wanted to"
6742 2013-03-12 23:24:31 <epylar> the forums are a wretched hive of scum and villainy
6743 2013-03-12 23:24:31 <MC-Droid> patches welcome motherfucker
6744 2013-03-12 23:24:58 <Luke-Jr> please just ignore bitcointroll forum
6745 2013-03-12 23:25:15 NestedUniverse has joined
6746 2013-03-12 23:25:19 twmz has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
6747 2013-03-12 23:25:24 <jrmithdobbs> MC-Droid: there was such a small probability of what happened happening that anyone willing to make those comments just show how little they understand about bitcoin specifically and software development in general :)
6748 2013-03-12 23:25:34 <K1773R> if you post on BTCTalk you need a good spamfilter :P
6749 2013-03-12 23:25:35 HLL has quit (Quit: Please, Don't fork any more...)
6750 2013-03-12 23:25:47 perezd has joined
6751 2013-03-12 23:25:55 <K1773R> lol the quitmessage of HLL
6752 2013-03-12 23:25:57 <sipa> LOL http://i.imgur.com/NncJ5fI.jpg
6753 2013-03-12 23:26:08 <epylar> sipa: that was a good one
6754 2013-03-12 23:26:11 <MC-Droid> yeah the problem would have taken a VERY sophisticated test regime to trigger
6755 2013-03-12 23:26:13 zoinky has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
6756 2013-03-12 23:26:14 <MKCoin> lol.
6757 2013-03-12 23:26:27 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: haha
6758 2013-03-12 23:26:30 <theymos> Luke-Jr: On the subject of bitcointroll forum, I'm going to add a feature allowing you to mark your topics as self-moderated when you create them. In such topics, the OP can delete replies. That should solve some of your problems.
6759 2013-03-12 23:26:51 <Luke-Jr> theymos: yes, that would help; thanks
6760 2013-03-12 23:27:05 <MC-Droid> i bet the biggest software companies might not have caught it first time
6761 2013-03-12 23:27:05 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: can you only enable it for admins/selected accounts though
6762 2013-03-12 23:27:07 <Eleuthria> theymos:  Any chance of making that retroactive?  Some of those pool topic replies are completely irrelevant these days.
6763 2013-03-12 23:27:09 <Luke-Jr> theymos: did you like the alias setup? :P
6764 2013-03-12 23:27:11 <gwillen> TheSeven: rather than basing it on how far in the past the fork started, might want to instead look at how long it's been in realtime since the fork got a new block
6765 2013-03-12 23:27:22 <jrmithdobbs> MC-Droid: can almost garauntee they wouldn't have, in fact
6766 2013-03-12 23:27:27 <Luke-Jr> Eleuthria: just make a new one
6767 2013-03-12 23:27:29 <gwillen> TheSeven: or infer from that what amount of hashpower the fork appears to have
6768 2013-03-12 23:27:45 <TheSeven> that's an option
6769 2013-03-12 23:27:45 <theymos> Luke-Jr: I prefer dramatalk.org :)
6770 2013-03-12 23:27:54 <Eleuthria> Luke-Jr:  I hate to make a whole new topic.  I still regret losing the 100 pages of the old Guild thread from proportional days.
6771 2013-03-12 23:28:05 <K1773R> theymos. awesome :)
6772 2013-03-12 23:28:10 <Eleuthria> Although I probably will have to eventually.
6773 2013-03-12 23:28:12 <Luke-Jr> Eleuthria: doesn't have to be lost, just link to it "historical archives"
6774 2013-03-12 23:28:14 <Scrat> theymos: why are you wasting your time on that PoS software, seriously?
6775 2013-03-12 23:28:22 <epylar> i wonder if satoshi will ever use the alert system to say "I HAVE RETURNED"
6776 2013-03-12 23:28:23 <Scrat> pressing F5 to check for new replies is so 1990
6777 2013-03-12 23:28:27 twixed has quit (Quit: Leaving)
6778 2013-03-12 23:28:35 <theymos> Eleuthria: Maybe I can make an exception for your topic, though I don't want to do it generally. I don't think that it's fair to change the rules after a topic is created.
6779 2013-03-12 23:28:41 <TheSeven> but it needs to 1. tolerate short bursts due to p2p network just not keeping up, 2. catch things before they reach 6 confirmations, 3. tolerate very low hashrate forks that continue to be mined
6780 2013-03-12 23:28:52 <Luke-Jr> theymos: ooh, I want exceptions too!
6781 2013-03-12 23:28:54 <Luke-Jr> :P
6782 2013-03-12 23:29:00 <sipa> epylar: ha, gavin or theymos could do that on april first :p   (though i'd consider that terrible abuse of the alert system
6783 2013-03-12 23:29:06 <epylar> heh
6784 2013-03-12 23:29:10 <Eleuthria> theymos:  Just thinking for all the pool operator threads it would be nice to just be able to clean house
6785 2013-03-12 23:29:18 <Eleuthria> theymost:  Rather than make a bunch of new threads :)
6786 2013-03-12 23:29:35 <TheSeven> so I'd proposed len(side) > MAX(3, len(main) * 20) as the alert condition or something like that
6787 2013-03-12 23:29:39 <Eleuthria> But I can see why doing that might make other people angry
6788 2013-03-12 23:29:57 <Luke-Jr> theymos: actually, it'd be nice if pools/software could apply for their own subforums so they don't need to clutter up a single thread with many topics…
6789 2013-03-12 23:30:12 <MKCoin> Lol. I turned on my miner on the testnet, saw it was going at 50 Mh/s, realized it was way too much and turned it off after less than 2 minutes. Just realized it mined a block in that period.
6790 2013-03-12 23:30:14 <TheSeven> or, possibly, use a non-boolean safety indicator that every merchant can choose a false positive vs. false negative tradeoff threshold for, with some sane example values provided
6791 2013-03-12 23:30:15 perezd has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
6792 2013-03-12 23:30:37 <Eleuthria> Luke-Jr:  While it would be convenient...that'd be a nightmare to moderate
6793 2013-03-12 23:30:40 <K1773R> theymos; what about topics created by trolls to only spread FUD? such ppl would love to abuse it so the thread can spread even more FUD/propaganda
6794 2013-03-12 23:30:48 <Luke-Jr> Eleuthria: not if they were self-moderated
6795 2013-03-12 23:30:51 <Eleuthria> Especially when pool XYZ complains about not being allowed their own subforum.
6796 2013-03-12 23:30:59 <Eleuthria> With their 19 miners running at 3 GH/s.
6797 2013-03-12 23:31:18 <TheSeven> K1773R: aren't those trolls doing that anyway?
6798 2013-03-12 23:31:25 <sipa> that's 4 times faster than me!
6799 2013-03-12 23:31:25 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6800 2013-03-12 23:31:26 <K1773R> MKCoin: if there was no block in the last 20 minutes the diff is at 0.5 (displayed as 1), so its easy to find a block
6801 2013-03-12 23:31:30 <sipa> i want my own subforum too!
6802 2013-03-12 23:31:40 <Eleuthria> :P
6803 2013-03-12 23:31:41 <MKCoin> Yeah, but I didn't know it was *that* easy
6804 2013-03-12 23:31:47 <K1773R> TheSeven: they are, but if theymos implements this they are starting to delete valid non FUD posts
6805 2013-03-12 23:31:56 i2pRelay has joined
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6812 2013-03-12 23:34:20 <K1773R> then we have threads which are non FUD and threads that are pure FUD...
6813 2013-03-12 23:35:14 <theymos> It's not optimal, but you'll be able to choose whether to participate in a particular topic. If you don't like the OP, you can create your own topic.
6814 2013-03-12 23:35:29 <theymos> Long-term I'd like a web of trust moderation system.
6815 2013-03-12 23:35:33 epylar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
6816 2013-03-12 23:35:57 <K1773R> eh, another thing theymos, when i ignore a OP is it possible to remove it from the unread/unread-replys list?
6817 2013-03-12 23:36:09 <K1773R> like kinda ignoring the thread itself (since the OP created it)
6818 2013-03-12 23:36:29 <theymos> They should already be greyed out.
6819 2013-03-12 23:36:29 kalleboo has joined
6820 2013-03-12 23:36:30 <K1773R> that would help to ignore tons of these useless threads
6821 2013-03-12 23:36:58 <K1773R> can you add an option to completely hide them if the OP is on ignore?
6822 2013-03-12 23:36:59 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
6823 2013-03-12 23:37:40 <Luke-Jr> theymos: Is there a reason not to let me choose not to speak to certain people (ie, force them to ignore me)
6824 2013-03-12 23:37:41 <Graet> many pools seem capable of having a forum attached to thier site, i thread on bitcointalk is more than enough for me....
6825 2013-03-12 23:37:50 <K1773R> this way we have search trough the "grey dust" until theres something useful (well, its a not like this ;))
6826 2013-03-12 23:38:18 <K1773R> *we have to
6827 2013-03-12 23:38:24 wubino has joined
6828 2013-03-12 23:38:44 <K1773R> for example, i dont need to see all the stupid threads created by smoothie (which is an extreme)
6829 2013-03-12 23:38:55 <K1773R> they are totaly not worth reading and never will be
6830 2013-03-12 23:38:57 <theymos> K1773R: Adding options to SMF is somewhat difficult. You could easily remove them with a custom stylesheet in your browser.
6831 2013-03-12 23:39:07 jorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6832 2013-03-12 23:39:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6833 2013-03-12 23:39:36 <K1773R> ok, can you add a class/id to them so we can filter them out in a easy way?
6834 2013-03-12 23:39:43 <theymos> Luke-Jr: Seems wrong to me. I'd have to think about it more to tell you why or maybe change my mind.
6835 2013-03-12 23:39:57 i2pRelay has joined
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6837 2013-03-12 23:40:00 <Scrat> theymos: what is the status of this? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50617.0
6838 2013-03-12 23:40:15 meLon has joined
6839 2013-03-12 23:40:33 <theymos> Scrat: Not much progress. No good bids, despite the huge amount of money.
6840 2013-03-12 23:40:59 bernard75 has joined
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6843 2013-03-12 23:41:24 <theymos> Scrat: I'd like to break it into smaller pieces, but this requires some up-front work on the core. I haven't had much time to work on this.
6844 2013-03-12 23:41:38 canoon has joined
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6846 2013-03-12 23:41:48 <Scrat> I don't see why you wouldn't choose a software package which is easily extensible and then pay people to write addons/modules for it
6847 2013-03-12 23:42:17 <theymos> All the ones I've seen seem bad in various ways. Though maybe I will end up doing that.
6848 2013-03-12 23:42:59 <theymos> K1773R: Don't they already have ignored_topic class?
6849 2013-03-12 23:43:09 <K1773R> err theymos nvm, just saw there is a ignored_topic clas
6850 2013-03-12 23:43:11 <Luke-Jr> theymos: any ETA on self-moderated topics?
6851 2013-03-12 23:43:12 <K1773R> ugh, you were faster
6852 2013-03-12 23:43:19 <theymos> Luke-Jr: Probably tomorrow.
6853 2013-03-12 23:43:35 <K1773R> got them filtere out now, neat!
6854 2013-03-12 23:43:58 <K1773R> +d .. sheesh my typos
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6858 2013-03-12 23:45:04 <RoboTeddy> in event of fork with length close to confirmation length (e.g. 6), it seems like everyone should automatically find out about it, so they can either stop transacting, or realize they are transacting with increased risk of double-spends occurring
6859 2013-03-12 23:45:06 owowo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6860 2013-03-12 23:45:31 <RoboTeddy> seems like this goes for both merchants and normal users
6861 2013-03-12 23:46:56 <K1773R> RoboTeddy, if you want to be save about forks, run all the working bitcoind versions and check the latest blocks with a nice cronjob ;)
6862 2013-03-12 23:46:58 zoinky has joined
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6866 2013-03-12 23:47:29 <sipa> ha, i'd sure like to see how 0.2.10 performs on today's chain load
6867 2013-03-12 23:47:43 <K1773R> thats probably the easiest way to detect a fork without any code (expect the bash script itself)
6868 2013-03-12 23:47:44 <midnightmagic> RoboTeddy: It's not really possible to guarantee that you have hard about both forks.
6869 2013-03-12 23:47:58 i2pRelay has joined
6870 2013-03-12 23:48:05 <midnightmagic> s/hard/heard/
6871 2013-03-12 23:48:19 <K1773R> is 0.2.10 compatible? i thougd there was a hardfork in a version above 0.2.10 (or did i mess up something?)
6872 2013-03-12 23:48:33 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
6873 2013-03-12 23:48:46 <sipa> K1773R: 0.2.10 is the earliest supported
6874 2013-03-12 23:48:54 <sipa> and not a hardfork, a p2p protocol change
6875 2013-03-12 23:48:58 <K1773R> ah ok :)
6876 2013-03-12 23:49:00 <K1773R> ty
6877 2013-03-12 23:49:13 <Scrat> K177 -USR1 K1773R
6878 2013-03-12 23:50:15 agricocb has joined
6879 2013-03-12 23:50:18 <tjader> oO
6880 2013-03-12 23:50:19 Hasimir- is now known as Hasimir
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6883 2013-03-12 23:50:27 <epylar_> i wonder what network traffic would look like if you had a very small handful of nodes with the full block chain, and every other node was installed from scratch
6884 2013-03-12 23:50:29 <epylar_> like, how it would propagate
6885 2013-03-12 23:50:43 <midnightmagic> sipa: Was that the one where they guy paid himself with a negative integer?
6886 2013-03-12 23:50:50 zooko_afk has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
6887 2013-03-12 23:50:52 <K1773R> sry, USR1 isnt being maped :P
6888 2013-03-12 23:51:02 lantastic has joined
6889 2013-03-12 23:51:03 <sipa> midnightmagic: no, that's independent
6890 2013-03-12 23:51:07 <midnightmagic> oh.
6891 2013-03-12 23:51:18 <sipa> midnightmagic: not sure what version that was, but it didn't introduce a backward-incompatible change
6892 2013-03-12 23:51:24 <K1773R> gotta have to archive that post :P
6893 2013-03-12 23:51:25 <sipa> it just disallowed negative integers :p
6894 2013-03-12 23:51:32 <midnightmagic> :-)
6895 2013-03-12 23:51:39 <sipa> a soft fork as we'd call it today
6896 2013-03-12 23:51:50 <midnightmagic> and a huge coordinated effort to overtake the broken chain...
6897 2013-03-12 23:51:59 <sipa> yes
6898 2013-03-12 23:52:12 joehoyle has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
6899 2013-03-12 23:52:21 <midnightmagic> sipa: Thanks for the blacklist patch by the way. I can report it probably worked for me.
6900 2013-03-12 23:52:43 Pwngu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
6901 2013-03-12 23:52:46 <sipa> yes, i very briefly tested it myself too
6902 2013-03-12 23:52:54 Jazb has joined
6903 2013-03-12 23:53:10 Nicksasa has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
6904 2013-03-12 23:53:15 <sipa> though i'm not sure about turning it into a pullreq; a an RPC call to make instant blockchain forks seems dangerous :p
6905 2013-03-12 23:53:22 <RoboTeddy> K1773R: that's a good idea-- maybe someone should write up a service that does that, and expose it as a public service and/or as a downloadable setup that people can run themselves
6906 2013-03-12 23:53:57 <K1773R> RoboTeddy, host it yourself, otherwise u have to trust the service is working as it should
6907 2013-03-12 23:55:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
6908 2013-03-12 23:55:37 <RoboTeddy> K1773R: might what each bitcoind sees be a function of which peers it's connected to? in which case it might be necessary to run multiple bitcoinds of each version connected to different sets of peers
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6911 2013-03-12 23:56:42 <ProfMac> Sometimes I'd really like to have a negative transaction fee.
6912 2013-03-12 23:56:47 <tjader> Oo
6913 2013-03-12 23:57:12 <RoboTeddy> or maybe someone should write software that lets merchants receive gavin alerts on their cell phones (especially for merchants)
6914 2013-03-12 23:57:18 Eleuthria has left ()
6915 2013-03-12 23:57:18 <K1773R> open ur ports so u get alot of connections, that should solve it. you can even connect all the bitcoinds together to be sure that they would process all blocks equally (take a look at addnode)
6916 2013-03-12 23:57:29 <sipa> ProfMac: yeah, being paid to send money somewhere would be nice, i agree! :p
6917 2013-03-12 23:57:31 <K1773R> ProfMac, so i have to pay for every TX as miner? that hurts!
6918 2013-03-12 23:57:44 <sipa> i also want a pony
6919 2013-03-12 23:57:48 <ProfMac> is there a know instance where someone got away with it?
6920 2013-03-12 23:57:51 <K1773R> not a unicorn?
6921 2013-03-12 23:57:59 <gavinandresen> sipa gets a pony, I get a unicorn
6922 2013-03-12 23:58:03 <lianj> and a lighsaber
6923 2013-03-12 23:58:07 <lianj> *light
6924 2013-03-12 23:58:27 <owowo> ProfMac: like negative interest rates
6925 2013-03-12 23:58:27 taaz has joined
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6927 2013-03-12 23:59:10 <ProfMac> That's what I understand the 0.3 software allowed.  I just wonder if it was ever exploited.
6928 2013-03-12 23:59:15 theymos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
6929 2013-03-12 23:59:27 pacpac has left ("Leaving")
6930 2013-03-12 23:59:31 <sipa> ProfMac: sure
6931 2013-03-12 23:59:34 <sipa> and rolled back
6932 2013-03-12 23:59:40 theymos has joined