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  15 2013-03-15 00:37:48 <sipa> forrestv: present?
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  24 2013-03-15 00:51:43 <forrestv> sipa, yes
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  48 2013-03-15 01:22:34 <peawormsworth> I would like to know if it is possible to remove the wallet.dat passphrase encryption provided from bitcoin-qt.
  49 2013-03-15 01:22:42 <peawormsworth> ...from outside of bitcoin-qt
  50 2013-03-15 01:22:53 amantonop has joined
  51 2013-03-15 01:22:54 <peawormsworth> or if there is a way within bitcoin-qt to remove the passphrase.
  52 2013-03-15 01:22:59 BTC_Bear has joined
  53 2013-03-15 01:23:14 <peawormsworth> I have tried this: "openssl enc -d -aes256 -in wallet.dat -out wallet.dat.decrypted"
  54 2013-03-15 01:23:28 <peawormsworth> but I got this: "bad magic number"
  55 2013-03-15 01:23:58 <pjorrit_> the file itself is not encrypted just some of the contents are i belvie
  56 2013-03-15 01:24:01 <pjorrit_> believe*
  57 2013-03-15 01:24:06 <andytoshi> peawormsworth: nope, sorry
  58 2013-03-15 01:24:11 <andytoshi> pjorrit_ is correct
  59 2013-03-15 01:24:25 <andytoshi> the pubkeys and balances are in the clear, so that you don't need to type your passphrase so much
  60 2013-03-15 01:24:42 <sipa> there are no balances stored in a wallet.dat file
  61 2013-03-15 01:25:07 <sipa> but there are transactions, and which outputs are spent
  62 2013-03-15 01:25:14 zoinky1 has joined
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  64 2013-03-15 01:25:22 <andytoshi> sipa: where are accounts kept track of then?
  65 2013-03-15 01:25:23 <peawormsworth> ok... but having portions of the wallet.dat encrypted... wont this make it impossible for use outside of bitcoin-qt? like in armory?
  66 2013-03-15 01:25:37 <sipa> andytoshi: computed
  67 2013-03-15 01:25:38 <andytoshi> peawormsworth: no, it's open-source
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  70 2013-03-15 01:26:27 <gavinandresen> peawormsworth: yes, it is a very bad idea to use the same keys in two different applications.  We make it hard for you to do that.
  71 2013-03-15 01:27:06 <gavinandresen> … or maybe it would be more accurate to say we don't make it easy, we don't really go out of our way to make it hard.
  72 2013-03-15 01:27:31 <peawormsworth> ok thanks for the info.
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  82 2013-03-15 01:36:43 <ProfMac> Can anyone see the web page at http://ns2.vima.austin.tx.us/
  83 2013-03-15 01:39:00 zoinky has joined
  84 2013-03-15 01:39:15 <andytoshi> nope
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  86 2013-03-15 01:41:10 <andytoshi> programmers: http://xkcd.com/1185/
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  94 2013-03-15 01:56:33 <yebyen> rdponticelli: no, arm client though
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  97 2013-03-15 02:01:18 <yebyen> rdponticelli: i'm going to try and transfer it to a faster host with more memory that's not ARM, if it still fails then I guess I will have narrowed it down
  98 2013-03-15 02:01:42 <yebyen> if it succeeds narrowed it down too I guess
  99 2013-03-15 02:01:53 <yebyen> or if I can download the blockchain with no wallet
 100 2013-03-15 02:02:18 <rdponticelli> Ok, try
 101 2013-03-15 02:02:44 <yebyen> it's only testnet coins that are targeted at one block every 10 seconds
 102 2013-03-15 02:02:49 <yebyen> with low low difficulty
 103 2013-03-15 02:03:19 <yebyen> took me less than a few days to gen 500k coins
 104 2013-03-15 02:03:33 <rdponticelli> Do keypoolrefill work?
 105 2013-03-15 02:03:39 <yebyen> what's that?
 106 2013-03-15 02:03:46 <yebyen> I can try it
 107 2013-03-15 02:04:07 <rdponticelli> Looks like it failed when the bitcoinminer asked for a new address
 108 2013-03-15 02:04:24 <sipa> yebyen: is your wallet encrypted?
 109 2013-03-15 02:04:42 <yebyen> no, not unless you can accidentally encrypt your wallet by 51%'ing your network long enough
 110 2013-03-15 02:04:47 <yebyen> or 92%'ing
 111 2013-03-15 02:04:52 <sipa> doubtfully
 112 2013-03-15 02:04:57 <rdponticelli> And the failure was on the wallet, trying to create a new key
 113 2013-03-15 02:05:18 chadillac has joined
 114 2013-03-15 02:05:23 <yebyen> and I tried dumping the block chain several times, but I genned solo on this chain, so I don't want to just toss it
 115 2013-03-15 02:05:44 zoinky has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 116 2013-03-15 02:05:57 <yebyen> but if there's a longer chain that doesn't include those blocks, maybe I don't have a choice
 117 2013-03-15 02:06:22 <sipa> only explanation, code-wise, is that CDB::Write failed
 118 2013-03-15 02:06:28 <sipa> so some BDB problem with the wallet
 119 2013-03-15 02:06:32 <sipa> you may want to look at db.log
 120 2013-03-15 02:06:43 <yebyen> unfortunately I did not save that
 121 2013-03-15 02:07:17 <yebyen> that would have been a good idea
 122 2013-03-15 02:07:51 <yebyen> I thought memory, because this machine only seems to have ~700mb of memory
 123 2013-03-15 02:08:06 <yebyen> and it rides pretty close to full before setgenerate true
 124 2013-03-15 02:08:17 <yebyen> but I added 1gb swap and no help
 125 2013-03-15 02:09:10 <phantomcircuit> yebyen, if you can out of memory the process would have been killed
 126 2013-03-15 02:09:24 <phantomcircuit> linux only disallows memory allocation for ridiculous amounts
 127 2013-03-15 02:09:28 <yebyen> it sure died, but not with "Killed: out of memory"
 128 2013-03-15 02:09:35 <phantomcircuit> unless you change the specific setting
 129 2013-03-15 02:09:44 <phantomcircuit> which i doubt you did
 130 2013-03-15 02:09:47 <yebyen> this is pretty much stock android
 131 2013-03-15 02:09:51 <yebyen> i haven't even compiled the kernel
 132 2013-03-15 02:09:55 <yebyen> eos4
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 134 2013-03-15 02:12:50 <yebyen> debian in chroot
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 138 2013-03-15 02:16:11 <MKCoin> ;;bc;blocks
 139 2013-03-15 02:16:12 <gribble> Error: "bc;blocks" is not a valid command.
 140 2013-03-15 02:16:49 <MKCoin> Well rather than guess I'll wait for someone to use the right command
 141 2013-03-15 02:17:20 <epylar> don't everyone talk at once.
 142 2013-03-15 02:17:48 <iwilcox> Needs to be a comma, that last ';'
 143 2013-03-15 02:19:22 <BTC_Bear> ;;blocks
 144 2013-03-15 02:19:23 <gribble> 225916
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 146 2013-03-15 02:19:26 <MKCoin> ahh
 147 2013-03-15 02:20:48 <VoteGoat> how many addresses could be realistically handled in one wallet?
 148 2013-03-15 02:21:39 <VoteGoat> I am making a service which would need potentially hundreds of thousands of bitcoin addresses and am figuring out the best way to do it
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 189 2013-03-15 03:43:38 <keystroke> how is 0.8.1 coming along?
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 204 2013-03-15 04:02:28 <RoboTeddy> have we determined precisely how to produce blocks that don't put <=0.7 over the lock limit?
 205 2013-03-15 04:03:39 XertroV-work1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 206 2013-03-15 04:03:58 <RoboTeddy> and if so, can we in practice consistently construct 1MB blocks that won't freak <=0.7 out?
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 216 2013-03-15 04:13:51 <andytoshi> does anyone here have a mac on which they can compile something for me?
 217 2013-03-15 04:14:13 <andytoshi> (not bitcoin related, just something a prof would like to use)
 218 2013-03-15 04:14:18 <RoboTeddy> andytoshi: sure if it's easy
 219 2013-03-15 04:14:24 <RoboTeddy> andytoshi: message me out of channel
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 265 2013-03-15 05:29:06 <cads> hah, sipa, I actually do have a BTC dev question.
 266 2013-03-15 05:30:07 <cads> What would one use to give lambdabot her own BTC data feed?
 267 2013-03-15 05:31:05 <cads> I also want to give her a wallet with a BTC or so, just so she can feel special and maybe someday buy something nice for herself with it.
 268 2013-03-15 05:31:59 quijibo has joined
 269 2013-03-15 05:32:52 gritcoin_ has joined
 270 2013-03-15 05:33:15 <cads> (for those unfamiliar with lamdabot, it is a fairly extensible IRC bot written in haskell.)
 271 2013-03-15 05:33:39 gritcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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 273 2013-03-15 05:33:43 MKCoin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 274 2013-03-15 05:34:17 <cads> (it can do a few unusual things for a IRC bot, including compiling and running arbitrary code given to her by channel members)
 275 2013-03-15 05:35:35 <cads> This question fits under the idea of programming bitcoin agents. I have only seen theoretical work on this so far.
 276 2013-03-15 05:35:57 <cads> But perhaps you guys know of an existing project?
 277 2013-03-15 05:36:18 <jrmithdobbs> welcome to 1991 or something
 278 2013-03-15 05:36:38 <jrmithdobbs> yes, that's been done over and over, and is one of the reason tcl is so popular for dumb irc bots
 279 2013-03-15 05:37:51 <cads> jrmithdobbs: ah, shoot, I was vague. I meant to ask about projects with the goal of giving a bot the ability to autonomously spend BTC
 280 2013-03-15 05:38:21 <jrmithdobbs> so, you want to know how to speak json in <language>?
 281 2013-03-15 05:40:06 MK` has joined
 282 2013-03-15 05:40:19 <jgarzik> cads: Old idea :)  http://garzikrants.blogspot.com/2013/01/storj-and-bitcoin-autonomous-agents.html
 283 2013-03-15 05:40:35 <cads> This is the theoretical work I've sees: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Agents .  I am not sure whether the ideas of automated agents here are being implemented.
 284 2013-03-15 05:40:50 <jgarzik> cads: You need to (a) speak JSON or (b) speak bitcoin binary data structures
 285 2013-03-15 05:41:00 <cads> that's trivial
 286 2013-03-15 05:41:04 <jgarzik> cads: if (a), you need bitcoind running alongside your bot
 287 2013-03-15 05:41:22 <jrmithdobbs> a is pretty straight forward and simple.
 288 2013-03-15 05:41:27 <jgarzik> cads: if (b), you need to do a _lot_ of coding.  Start now, and check back in in 6 months.
 289 2013-03-15 05:41:38 <cads> yeah, a) sounds the best.
 290 2013-03-15 05:41:50 MK` is now known as MKCoin
 291 2013-03-15 05:41:54 <jgarzik> cads: StorJ (my link) is the inspiration for the /Agents wiki page.
 292 2013-03-15 05:42:38 zrad has joined
 293 2013-03-15 05:43:15 <jgarzik> cads: gmaxwell, petertodd and I like to poke at the bot subject
 294 2013-03-15 05:43:22 <jgarzik> cads: another related link, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=146307.0
 295 2013-03-15 05:43:40 <cads> jgarzik: yep, I am reading that now
 296 2013-03-15 05:44:05 <cads> I read the agents article by itself a few months ago and since the idea has sunk in
 297 2013-03-15 05:44:13 <cads> it's a very provocative idea
 298 2013-03-15 05:44:20 mow has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 299 2013-03-15 05:44:28 <jgarzik> cads: agents article is pretty crappy, IMNSHO, but anyway :)
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 302 2013-03-15 05:44:48 <cads> The amount of coding required for an agent to interact with ISPs and some job market is of course _very_ intimidating
 303 2013-03-15 05:44:54 <jgarzik> cads: Also read https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts
 304 2013-03-15 05:45:18 <jgarzik> cads: well you write the high level profit-seeking modules, testing modules, and pay humans to fill in the blanks
 305 2013-03-15 05:45:30 <cads> yes, contracts are rather impressive as well
 306 2013-03-15 05:45:31 <jgarzik> cads: StorJ article explains the economic incentives required
 307 2013-03-15 05:45:50 <cads> both as they could be applied to bots, and for actual human/human interactions
 308 2013-03-15 05:45:51 <jgarzik> cads: "[...]instead it forms agreements that make it unprofitable to cheat."
 309 2013-03-15 05:46:00 <jgarzik> cads: correct
 310 2013-03-15 05:46:18 <CodeShark> you don't need (a) and you only need to do a lot of coding if you're not making use of an existing JSON <-> bitcoin binary datastructures library
 311 2013-03-15 05:46:36 <jgarzik> He's in Haskell
 312 2013-03-15 05:46:37 <jgarzik> ;p
 313 2013-03-15 05:46:42 <CodeShark> oh, hmmm
 314 2013-03-15 05:46:53 <CodeShark> well, it would be nice to have a library in haskell for this :)
 315 2013-03-15 05:47:13 HiWEB has left ()
 316 2013-03-15 05:47:20 <cads> jgarzik:  we'd essentially ensure something that could be called a zero trust equilibrium
 317 2013-03-15 05:47:49 clav8 has quit ()
 318 2013-03-15 05:48:38 <jgarzik> cads: well, like nature or markets themselves, always seeking equilibrium but never attaining it.  Services will be profitable and grow; they will be unprofitable and wither.
 319 2013-03-15 05:49:19 <jgarzik> cads: another idea discussed was a network of semi-trusted bots, that cooperate to create an off-chain micropayments service
 320 2013-03-15 05:49:30 <jgarzik> provable to themselves, and to their users, that there is no cheating
 321 2013-03-15 05:49:38 <cads> (in game theory an equilibrium is a set of player strategies where each player has no (or almost no) incentive to deviate from their chosen strategy)
 322 2013-03-15 05:49:47 <warren> discussed where?
 323 2013-03-15 05:49:49 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
 324 2013-03-15 05:49:54 <randy-waterhouse> we have they are called exchange operators
 325 2013-03-15 05:49:54 <jgarzik> IRC
 326 2013-03-15 05:50:34 <cads> jgarzik: I like the micropayments idea
 327 2013-03-15 05:52:04 <cads> At first humans can rent sizeable chunks of compute resources. They could then rent out to agent 'tenants'.
 328 2013-03-15 05:52:08 <warren> Conceivably a trusted bot network with its own chain could fully automate a BTC/alt pair exchange complete with escrow.
 329 2013-03-15 05:52:37 <cads> It's not like the agents will have a choice but to trust the human, and it's very likely that the human would be trust worthy, because of their likely vested interest in BTC and Agents.
 330 2013-03-15 05:53:13 KipIngram has joined
 331 2013-03-15 05:53:23 <cads> I may be describing what randy-waterhouse just mentioned :)
 332 2013-03-15 05:55:04 <jgarzik> warren: yep
 333 2013-03-15 05:55:09 <cads> I think it may be hard to satoshi this into existence in any well polished form
 334 2013-03-15 05:55:23 <jgarzik> cads: indeed, that's the rub
 335 2013-03-15 05:55:39 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
 336 2013-03-15 05:55:39 <jgarzik> cads: hard to initially trust a bot, and build a network of human workers
 337 2013-03-15 05:56:14 <cads> I would be satisfied to create a lambdabot/otherbot that securely carries a wallet but can't spend it.
 338 2013-03-15 05:56:26 b4tt3r135 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 339 2013-03-15 05:56:34 <jgarzik> cads: bitcoin is fundamentally private key management
 340 2013-03-15 05:56:37 <cads> Then others could decide how they might want to code the bot to spend that money temptingly stored inside it.
 341 2013-03-15 05:56:47 <jgarzik> cads: understand that, and you understand how to work the problem
 342 2013-03-15 05:56:58 <jgarzik> cads: yep
 343 2013-03-15 05:57:12 D34TH has joined
 344 2013-03-15 05:57:25 <jgarzik> warren: I was thinking a bot would be great for automated escrow
 345 2013-03-15 05:58:34 <warren> jgarzik: what mechanism would be preferred to unlock the send?
 346 2013-03-15 05:58:34 <jgarzik> Or a set of cooperating bots, each part of a multi-sig transaction
 347 2013-03-15 05:58:47 <jgarzik> thus, one bot could not spend the entire universe, but needs agreement from other bots
 348 2013-03-15 05:59:16 * cads will let the game theory and AI grad students fight over what kind of brain to give these things
 349 2013-03-15 05:59:34 <cads> granted, I'll _be_ one of them before long, but still
 350 2013-03-15 05:59:45 <warren> jgarzik: theoretically better, but building trust in more than one independently run bot is harder than one.
 351 2013-03-15 06:00:59 <jgarzik> warren: in common seller->buyer escrow situations, it seems like (a) the buyer can unlock the funds, (b) the seller can unlock the funds, or a mediator -- possibly a bot -- could unlock the funds.  And a fourth entity holds the funds securely for the duration of the real-world transaction.
 352 2013-03-15 06:01:06 <cads> for now I think we can get the most utility from nothing more than building the most basic boiler plate
 353 2013-03-15 06:01:13 <cads> dangle it out there
 354 2013-03-15 06:01:25 <jgarzik> Alternately, for security, you can use multi-sig to distribute approval
 355 2013-03-15 06:01:38 <cads> what agents need now isn't brains. They need wallets.
 356 2013-03-15 06:02:10 <cads> As soon as the boring part is done, people will be dying to build brains to operate these wallets.
 357 2013-03-15 06:02:14 <jgarzik> cads: brains are boring.  StorJ is specifically "narrow AI" -- a simple scripted entity, not attempting any sort of reasoning or fuzzy logic.
 358 2013-03-15 06:03:03 <jgarzik> "The human's contribution is the new knowledge of where to grow an instance and the startup funds."
 359 2013-03-15 06:03:29 <jgarzik> Simple, scripted entities can be highly effective
 360 2013-03-15 06:03:40 zooko has joined
 361 2013-03-15 06:03:44 <cads> agree
 362 2013-03-15 06:03:59 lb4956 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 363 2013-03-15 06:03:59 <jgarzik> and if open source and[/or] well used, and if provably techniques are used... trustable
 364 2013-03-15 06:04:21 <jgarzik> *provable
 365 2013-03-15 06:04:34 <jgarzik> cads: are you a ramblin' wreck, by any chance?
 366 2013-03-15 06:04:48 <cads> you might in turn agree that an agent that can implement storj will be several orders of magnitude more complicated than an agent that inertly carries a wallet
 367 2013-03-15 06:05:05 <jgarzik> oh certainly
 368 2013-03-15 06:05:19 <cads> jgarzik: hah, what do you mean?
 369 2013-03-15 06:05:34 <jgarzik> IRC micropayment bot is leagues away from StorJ, certainly
 370 2013-03-15 06:06:06 <cads> (I do tend to ramble)
 371 2013-03-15 06:06:06 <jgarzik> cads: No worries.  If you don't get the reference, the answer is no :)
 372 2013-03-15 06:06:19 <cads> jgarzik: aaah
 373 2013-03-15 06:06:27 <cads> I believe technically I'm a panther
 374 2013-03-15 06:06:31 <warren> jgarzik: would IRC micropayment bot rely entirely on nickserv auth, or an OTC-like auth?
 375 2013-03-15 06:07:27 <jgarzik> warren: Ideally something strong, like the 'signmessage' feature in bitcoin, that adds digital signatures to messages
 376 2013-03-15 06:07:42 <cads> jgarzik: Hmm, I agree that we'd be doing a smart thing if we took a lesson from the bot nets and used IRC to coordinate agents
 377 2013-03-15 06:07:42 <warren> Presumably nickserv auth would be insecure, but convenient and safe enough if you set daily limits and you have reasonably small amounts deposited.
 378 2013-03-15 06:07:43 <jgarzik> warren: cryptographic guarantee
 379 2013-03-15 06:08:04 <jgarzik> warren: there is always the possibility that an IRC server op might MITM still, without encryption, of course
 380 2013-03-15 06:08:13 <jgarzik> but the bot knows it's you, and you know it's the bot
 381 2013-03-15 06:08:16 <jgarzik> with digital signatures
 382 2013-03-15 06:08:24 <warren> oh, good point
 383 2013-03-15 06:08:24 <cads> warren: you definitely build your own auth on top of the protocol
 384 2013-03-15 06:08:41 <jgarzik> cads: bleh
 385 2013-03-15 06:08:49 <jgarzik> cads: IRC is very poor at bot coordination
 386 2013-03-15 06:09:03 <jgarzik> cads: that "lesson" was learned and unlearned a decade ago ;p
 387 2013-03-15 06:09:20 <jrmithdobbs> aye
 388 2013-03-15 06:09:27 <cads> oh shoot
 389 2013-03-15 06:09:35 zoinky has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 390 2013-03-15 06:09:42 <cads> the paper I read was from _exactly_ a decade ago
 391 2013-03-15 06:09:45 <cads> :P
 392 2013-03-15 06:10:17 <jgarzik> modern, evil botnets are all P2P.  And we like P2P here.  So might as well make the benign, good bots P2P ;p
 393 2013-03-15 06:10:59 <warren> jgarzik: do you think folks should be able to opt out of signmessage if you really don't care about that risk?
 394 2013-03-15 06:11:07 <cads> I read a paper about the development of the botnet state of the art circa 2003, and forgot to turn on my brain's "this is all obsolete already" mode
 395 2013-03-15 06:11:17 <jgarzik> warren: A fair -- and open -- question
 396 2013-03-15 06:11:19 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: [BB])
 397 2013-03-15 06:11:41 <jgarzik> warren: Might be nice to authenticate, then "/msg tipbot send warren 0.1 BTC"
 398 2013-03-15 06:11:52 <jgarzik> warren: ...and have it work, even if you are not registered or known
 399 2013-03-15 06:12:29 <jrmithdobbs> i could actually see some decent arguments against requiring, eg, use on oftc where all their hubs are tls interconnected and you have nickserv rsa auth ...
 400 2013-03-15 06:12:30 <jgarzik> send BTC to any IRC nick
 401 2013-03-15 06:12:53 <warren> jgarzik: if I can authenticate once per day/connection I don't care after that, personally.
 402 2013-03-15 06:12:54 Ant0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 403 2013-03-15 06:12:57 <jrmithdobbs> but you're still trusting the operator more than you *have* to
 404 2013-03-15 06:13:00 <jgarzik> -you- might have to auth, to spend, but the recipient is not known to the bot, and therefore obviously cannot authenticate
 405 2013-03-15 06:13:12 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 406 2013-03-15 06:13:22 Ant0 has joined
 407 2013-03-15 06:13:57 <cads> So what's the current state of the art for BTC agents?
 408 2013-03-15 06:14:05 <jgarzik> cads: 100% theory :)
 409 2013-03-15 06:14:08 <jrmithdobbs> jibber jabber in irc
 410 2013-03-15 06:14:12 <jgarzik> cads: 0% code
 411 2013-03-15 06:14:17 <cads> okay
 412 2013-03-15 06:14:26 <cads> I have spring break next week :D
 413 2013-03-15 06:14:34 <jrmithdobbs> actually
 414 2013-03-15 06:14:41 <cads> now, I'm a mathematician, not a coder
 415 2013-03-15 06:14:43 coolsa has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 416 2013-03-15 06:14:47 <cads> so it won't be pretty
 417 2013-03-15 06:14:48 <warren> Corner the market on 0.0001 cent transactions.
 418 2013-03-15 06:15:14 <amiller> the agent concept is rubbish and sort of misleading woowoo words
 419 2013-03-15 06:15:20 <jgarzik> warren: That's how micropayments will work...  off-chain, hopefully coordinated between decentralized entities
 420 2013-03-15 06:15:28 <amiller> there's no reason to trust whatever computing operator posesses the agent's private keys
 421 2013-03-15 06:15:42 <amiller> and if you don't trust the operator and its keys then there's no reason to trust the agent
 422 2013-03-15 06:15:51 <warren> jgarzik: alts are off chain decentralized too... just not trusted.
 423 2013-03-15 06:15:57 <warren> quite the opposite of trusted
 424 2013-03-15 06:15:58 <amiller> agent == child with a php/mysql database that will accept your bitcoins
 425 2013-03-15 06:16:06 <cads> I'm going to make an agent that is so trivial, so useless, that it'll piss off anyone that reads it (otherwise elegent) code
 426 2013-03-15 06:16:13 <jgarzik> ha
 427 2013-03-15 06:16:15 <jrmithdobbs> it's theorhetically possible, but pratically hard, to construct the thing so that the operator doesn't need the keys
 428 2013-03-15 06:16:18 <cads> if that's all I do I'll be happy
 429 2013-03-15 06:16:24 <amiller> no it's not
 430 2013-03-15 06:16:28 <jrmithdobbs> eg, the tpm trickery mentioned
 431 2013-03-15 06:16:30 <jrmithdobbs> yes, it is
 432 2013-03-15 06:16:43 <amiller> tpm isn't a real solution not in this context
 433 2013-03-15 06:16:49 <cads> and then hopefully it'll piss _me_ off enough that I'll recruit CS department people to hack on it
 434 2013-03-15 06:16:53 <amiller> it's one thing to trust a manufacturer if you're within some organization that pays for it
 435 2013-03-15 06:17:02 <amiller> it's another to trust a public tpm that issues to an anonymous agent or w/e
 436 2013-03-15 06:17:12 <jrmithdobbs> it's a start, and not the only option, though others are quite computationally expensive, sure ;p
 437 2013-03-15 06:17:53 <amiller> why not just say trusted CA and not mince words then
 438 2013-03-15 06:17:59 <amiller> the tpm has to be issued by a trusted authority
 439 2013-03-15 06:18:17 <jgarzik> cads: open source, I hope?
 440 2013-03-15 06:19:15 <jrmithdobbs> amiller: i think you could do it right with a java smartcard, for instance
 441 2013-03-15 06:19:29 <jrmithdobbs> so things exist
 442 2013-03-15 06:19:47 <jrmithdobbs> they just aren't common =/
 443 2013-03-15 06:19:53 <cads> amiller: there are certain possibly vaporware encryption techniques (homomorphic encryption) that might make the TPM thing not quite so necessary.
 444 2013-03-15 06:20:01 Ant0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 445 2013-03-15 06:20:22 Ant0 has joined
 446 2013-03-15 06:20:26 <jrmithdobbs> cads: yes, that and various other "trusted" computing stuff is what i was alluding to
 447 2013-03-15 06:20:44 <jrmithdobbs> or whatever the name is right now ;p
 448 2013-03-15 06:20:52 <warren> jgarzik: Perhaps the alts could be decentralized and trusted by having the entire chain encrypted, only unlockable if you know the secret key, then it stores the microchain only in RAM, so there's no evidence of it on disk after shutdown.  You can nuke nodes and not care.  As long as at least one node somewhere is online the chain lives.  That way users trust a particular key, and the agent could be running literally anywhere with any IRC name.
 449 2013-03-15 06:20:52 <warren>  (Plenty of other reasons this isn't practical or necessary, but bleh.)
 450 2013-03-15 06:21:20 <amiller> jrmithdobbs, the java smart card still requires a certificate authority
 451 2013-03-15 06:21:30 <jrmithdobbs> amiller: why
 452 2013-03-15 06:21:35 <warren> jgarzik: oops, I mean micropayment bot
 453 2013-03-15 06:21:38 <cads> amiller: as for the assumption that an agent would be a child, I hope you know there are expert systems that currently help make very responsible adult decisions
 454 2013-03-15 06:21:50 <jrmithdobbs> amiller: we have multiple vendors providing the hardware and it's an open spec
 455 2013-03-15 06:21:56 <cads> why shouldn't they grow up and move out on their own?
 456 2013-03-15 06:21:59 <amiller> not for the remote attestation feature
 457 2013-03-15 06:22:05 <jgarzik> warren: You can take the "ledger snapshot + ledger changes" approach
 458 2013-03-15 06:22:08 <jrmithdobbs> amiller: they're, as an agregate, more reliable than the cas are ;p
 459 2013-03-15 06:22:12 <jgarzik> warren: the 'changes' bit is the chain
 460 2013-03-15 06:22:15 <amiller> the point is everyone who uses the agetnt would have to trust that the agent got a legitimate tpm from a tpm manufacturer
 461 2013-03-15 06:22:22 <jgarzik> warren: once everyone agrees on a snapshot, you don't need past history at all
 462 2013-03-15 06:22:22 <jrmithdobbs> amiller: they're at least openly auditible through testing
 463 2013-03-15 06:23:19 <cads> I'm afraid I don't understand why the agent needs to run keyless, either.
 464 2013-03-15 06:23:21 <warren> jgarzik: ah, to minimize RAM usage.  I thought of the encrypted part as that would make consensus faster and easier without mining.
 465 2013-03-15 06:23:31 <cads> certainly not in the beginning
 466 2013-03-15 06:23:42 <amiller> this stuff about agents is a good #bitcoin-wizards rocket science discussion
 467 2013-03-15 06:23:44 <jrmithdobbs> cads: it's basic least authority kind of design, really
 468 2013-03-15 06:24:00 <jrmithdobbs> cads: it shouldn't *need* to have the keys available all the time either, so why start there? ;p
 469 2013-03-15 06:24:09 <cads> the only recourse an agent would have in case of failure, currently, would be to submit its sorry ass back to its creator
 470 2013-03-15 06:24:27 <jrmithdobbs> also, it really does all boil down to key management, like jgarzik said
 471 2013-03-15 06:24:39 <jgarzik> cads: yep
 472 2013-03-15 06:24:48 <jrmithdobbs> and you can go at it from this angle for a while and then you'll realise you've just circumvented worrying about managing the keys longer ;p
 473 2013-03-15 06:25:03 <jgarzik> For the simple IRC micropayment bot, it is run by humans, who understand the machine and what to trust
 474 2013-03-15 06:25:13 <jgarzik> StorJ stuff is far-out :)
 475 2013-03-15 06:25:34 <amiller> cads you should totally implement a simple one though
 476 2013-03-15 06:25:45 <amiller> i'd give it a bitcoin
 477 2013-03-15 06:26:13 <jgarzik> I'd love to write such a micropayment bot
 478 2013-03-15 06:26:18 <jgarzik> but the legal aspects of running it scare me
 479 2013-03-15 06:26:28 <cads> amiller: what's your AI/compsci background? Do you have good technical reasons to be skeptical, or is AI just a scifi rocket heehaw doodlyboodly green cheese moon hooey juice that we are drinking too deeply of?
 480 2013-03-15 06:26:53 <cads> ;)
 481 2013-03-15 06:27:13 <cads> <amiller> i'd give it a bitcoin --- Yes!
 482 2013-03-15 06:27:15 <cads> me too :D
 483 2013-03-15 06:27:22 <amiller> i've read a lot of up-to-date crypto theory papers
 484 2013-03-15 06:27:26 <cads> even if it did _absolutely nothing_ with it
 485 2013-03-15 06:27:33 <jgarzik> I'd give it a bitcoin... if it was auditable and provably trustable
 486 2013-03-15 06:27:45 thoughtcourier has joined
 487 2013-03-15 06:27:55 <cads> exactly, as you say, like I would give my baby brother a dollar
 488 2013-03-15 06:27:58 <amiller> i'm curious what jgarzik would consider provably trustable
 489 2013-03-15 06:27:59 <cads> just because
 490 2013-03-15 06:28:09 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: auditable how? isn't the point to not store history
 491 2013-03-15 06:28:09 <amiller> but yeah open source + auditable (at least the code you'd claim to be running) would be a prereq
 492 2013-03-15 06:28:32 <jrmithdobbs> i mean, what are your expectations as far as what should be verifiable and for how long/etc
 493 2013-03-15 06:29:03 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: prove the bot controls X bitcoins, post a hash-shrouded ledger that may be independently verified, etc.
 494 2013-03-15 06:29:03 <cads> the code I'm talking about will be so retarded, so trivial, so... dumb that I will be of course ashamed to post it
 495 2013-03-15 06:29:15 <cads> but, ahh, I'd have to have my head up my ass to make it closed source
 496 2013-03-15 06:29:29 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: You cannot prevent it from stealing, but you can prove it cheated
 497 2013-03-15 06:29:42 <cads> it'll be BSD or MIT license, unless there is a community preference
 498 2013-03-15 06:29:43 <grazs> I will donate 0.1 :)
 499 2013-03-15 06:30:37 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: seems straight forward enough then ...
 500 2013-03-15 06:30:49 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: i wonder what the legal implications *would* be
 501 2013-03-15 06:31:40 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: Same as being a depository for non-money "value"
 502 2013-03-15 06:32:08 <amiller> this whole "that may be independently verified" is a cop out but on the right track i guess
 503 2013-03-15 06:32:17 <amiller> that's exactly where fellowtraveler and #opentransactions left off in defining their securiyt
 504 2013-03-15 06:32:18 <warren> jgarzik: supposedly bitmit nearly shutdown because they were freaking out about their escrow service as being considered under HK law as holding other people's money.
 505 2013-03-15 06:32:22 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: And what happens when Mr. Bad Guy uses it, and LEA comes calling
 506 2013-03-15 06:32:23 <jrmithdobbs> amiller: how is that a cop out?
 507 2013-03-15 06:32:25 <amiller> there's always an "auditors protocol" just around the corner
 508 2013-03-15 06:32:42 JZavala has joined
 509 2013-03-15 06:32:48 <jgarzik> warren: yeah, examples like that
 510 2013-03-15 06:32:53 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: well if it's all blinded so there's nothing to answer, I dunno, that's what i'm wondering ;p
 511 2013-03-15 06:32:56 <cads> amiller: I don't think things can really be provably trust worthy in the real world. There have to be socioeconomic incentives in place, and saying that you trust someone simply means that your incentives are suitably compatible with theirs.
 512 2013-03-15 06:32:58 <amiller> the protocol for verification independently or otherwise, as well as the consequences of what to do afterwards, need to be part of it if it's owrhtwhile
 513 2013-03-15 06:33:03 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: indeed
 514 2013-03-15 06:33:04 <warren> I'd actually be interested in running a micropayment bot myself, but it doesn't seem worth the legal research needed.
 515 2013-03-15 06:33:11 <jgarzik> warren: indeed :)
 516 2013-03-15 06:33:27 <cads> amiller: not sure how this may apply here - I'm more of a decision analysis guy and much less a crypto guy
 517 2013-03-15 06:33:38 <jgarzik> What happens when it starts getting used as a coin mixer
 518 2013-03-15 06:33:51 Lolcust has quit (Quit: Nap time)
 519 2013-03-15 06:34:18 <warren> jgarzik: maybe on-chain multi sig would be considered "not holding money".  You are only signing off, you can't spend it yourself.  I dunno.
 520 2013-03-15 06:34:30 * cads is still trying to absorb how the global block chain doesn't expand uncontrollably due to the many many transactions hitting the network
 521 2013-03-15 06:34:59 <jgarzik> cads: it costs money (if only a tiny little bit) to send money
 522 2013-03-15 06:35:00 <cads> (I'm sure as soon as I read a technical paper showing the space complexity of such an economy wide accounting, I'll be pacified)
 523 2013-03-15 06:35:02 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: coin mixer? what happens when it becomes silk road's prefered payment method.
 524 2013-03-15 06:35:07 blkashdla has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 525 2013-03-15 06:35:09 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: c'mon, lets not beat around the bush here
 526 2013-03-15 06:35:10 <jgarzik> or that.
 527 2013-03-15 06:35:20 <warren> jrmithdobbs: SR has their own mixer
 528 2013-03-15 06:35:39 <warren> which seems rather stupid.  You're only proving that you mixed your coins with other law breakers.
 529 2013-03-15 06:36:02 <jgarzik> ...unless they are cooperating with some other outfits, such as miners providing fresh blocks
 530 2013-03-15 06:36:06 <jrmithdobbs> so always mix there before buying somewhere else, just to confuse people
 531 2013-03-15 06:36:08 <jgarzik> GPUMAX was accused of that, back when
 532 2013-03-15 06:36:11 <cads> jgarzik: have you read the Shamir's deep analysis of the BTC block chain?
 533 2013-03-15 06:36:15 <jrmithdobbs> aka, the gmaxwell effect
 534 2013-03-15 06:36:16 <cads> it's a hoot.
 535 2013-03-15 06:36:20 <jgarzik> cads: yes
 536 2013-03-15 06:36:25 <amiller> cads join #bitcoin-wizards and i will throw so many relevant technical papers aty ou
 537 2013-03-15 06:36:52 <cads> amiller, I am in 6 BTC channels and I feel like 4 of them are scamtowns
 538 2013-03-15 06:37:03 <cads> I will visit this wizards place
 539 2013-03-15 06:37:16 <warren> cads: ah, you seem to statistically prefer scamtowns.
 540 2013-03-15 06:37:51 <cads> :)
 541 2013-03-15 06:38:07 <cads> haha, a buddy of mine is _convinced_ BTC is a no good ponzi scheme
 542 2013-03-15 06:38:19 <cads> and my reaction is "that would be awesome!"
 543 2013-03-15 06:38:28 <warren> cads: how did he find out?  That was supposed to be secret.
 544 2013-03-15 06:39:03 <warren> cads: even more scary is #litecoin in this regard.
 545 2013-03-15 06:39:38 <cads> I was explaining BTC to him and 'ponzi scheme' just kind of came out of his mouth half way through my explanation
 546 2013-03-15 06:40:00 <cads> he's a finance student so this seems like spaceagey BS to him
 547 2013-03-15 06:40:44 <cads> warren: the way I see it is that if it _is_ a ponzi scheme it is a revolutionary one
 548 2013-03-15 06:40:58 <jrmithdobbs> funny, should point out to him that finance seems like stoneagey BS to everyone else who understands math
 549 2013-03-15 06:41:01 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
 550 2013-03-15 06:41:21 <cads> both in the sense that no ponzi scheme that I know of has ever introduced a fully formed new technology as its vehicle
 551 2013-03-15 06:42:03 <cads> and in the sense that, suppose it /is/ ponzi -- once the creators cash out and the market drops, I think there will still be enough people left to pick up the pieces.
 552 2013-03-15 06:42:12 <warren> I gave a presentation explaining Bitcoin at the law school two weeks ago.  Some didn't believe that more could not be created.  Some expressed a distrust of this "math" thing.  One of the audience claimed that the slowing rate of block rewards is proof that it is a ponzi scheme.
 553 2013-03-15 06:42:25 <warren> The professor commented, "hmm, there's nothing inherently illegal about speculation."
 554 2013-03-15 06:42:45 <jrmithdobbs> cads: there's no indication that the keys for those blocks are even still in existence
 555 2013-03-15 06:42:55 <jgarzik> Nothing inherently illegal about rewarding early adopters for risk.
 556 2013-03-15 06:43:03 <randy-waterhouse> lol
 557 2013-03-15 06:43:07 <cads> jgarzik: you're repeating the party line
 558 2013-03-15 06:43:15 <iwilcox> I love that response to reasoned argument; basically boils down to "Sure, but you can prove anything with 'facts' and 'logic' can't you?"
 559 2013-03-15 06:43:18 <jgarzik> (and I speak as one with a < 300 BTC balance, so I am not BTC-rich)
 560 2013-03-15 06:43:22 <jrmithdobbs> cads: i'm not, i'm giving a plausible argument;p
 561 2013-03-15 06:43:35 <cads> jrmithdobbs: no, not you :)
 562 2013-03-15 06:43:44 Ant0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 563 2013-03-15 06:43:48 <randy-waterhouse> the devs are suprisingly asetic (btc-wise) as far as we know ...
 564 2013-03-15 06:43:51 <jrmithdobbs> cads: there's no indication the keys still exist, and if they do the person in possession has zero interest in crashing it until after the point where the number of coins he's in possession of no longer matters
 565 2013-03-15 06:43:56 <jrmithdobbs> basically
 566 2013-03-15 06:43:56 <jrmithdobbs> so it's a non-issue
 567 2013-03-15 06:43:58 <iwilcox> jgarzik: That's just what I'd tell people if I *was* BTC-rich
 568 2013-03-15 06:44:10 <cads> jrmithdobbs: exactly
 569 2013-03-15 06:44:22 <cads> I didn't know that the original keys were hiding
 570 2013-03-15 06:44:24 Lolcust has joined
 571 2013-03-15 06:44:33 <cyphase> what kinds of checks are performed on a transaction before it's relayed?
 572 2013-03-15 06:44:35 <warren> It seems the business-oriented law students instantly "got" the benefits for merchants, but most of the others were concerned about how easy it is to irreversibly steal coins.  Among most ordinary humans viruses are too common and expected, apparently.
 573 2013-03-15 06:44:57 <jgarzik> cyphase: lots
 574 2013-03-15 06:45:02 <jrmithdobbs> cads: well, satoshi is/was in possession of most of them at some point in time (assuming the software he was using stored them correctly, and considering how many unspent whole blocks there are that may be a big assumption)
 575 2013-03-15 06:45:04 <jgarzik> cyphase: unless you're a slacker
 576 2013-03-15 06:45:08 <randy-waterhouse> it's like a priesthood where they take a vow of BTC-poverty to b e "above all that nasty money stuff" and concentrated on the code for the intellectual pursuit and good of humanity
 577 2013-03-15 06:45:38 <jrmithdobbs> cads: but to spend them he has to reveal himself, which he doesn't want to do (at least until after whether this works out is to be seen, maybe not ever, who knows)
 578 2013-03-15 06:45:44 <cads> jrmithdobbs: I suddently want to re-read shamir and see if his analysis talks about the original BTCs
 579 2013-03-15 06:45:45 <cyphase> thanks jgarzik
 580 2013-03-15 06:45:59 Boydy_ has joined
 581 2013-03-15 06:46:18 Ant0 has joined
 582 2013-03-15 06:46:19 Boydy_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 583 2013-03-15 06:46:20 <jrmithdobbs> cads: i re-glanced over it and remembered what i originally thought "why is shamir wasting his time with this nonsense"
 584 2013-03-15 06:46:33 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
 585 2013-03-15 06:46:38 <cads> why do you think it's nonsense?
 586 2013-03-15 06:46:43 <jgarzik> cyphase: technically transactions are validated by others.  Good clients self-check before sending.  https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules
 587 2013-03-15 06:46:47 toffoo has quit ()
 588 2013-03-15 06:46:53 <cads> don't be arbitrarily knockin' shamir, now :D
 589 2013-03-15 06:46:56 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
 590 2013-03-15 06:47:05 <cads> that's mah BOI right dur.
 591 2013-03-15 06:47:29 <iwilcox> If that critique on GitHub is any good, he made some pretty basic mistakes.
 592 2013-03-15 06:47:41 <cads> jrmithdobbs: ahh, that's what you thought back then?
 593 2013-03-15 06:47:43 <iwilcox> Sorry, gist.  I think.
 594 2013-03-15 06:47:44 <jrmithdobbs> cads: no, i mean the whole topic there is boring, there's nothing unexpected (unless i'm forgetting something)
 595 2013-03-15 06:48:00 <jgarzik> Satoshi posted the bitcoin code when he started the block chain.  He likely mined many of the the first hundred blocks, but it's not a pre-mine like recent scamcoins.
 596 2013-03-15 06:48:25 <jgarzik> Definitely a few early adopters who jumped on immediately, judging from anecdotes.
 597 2013-03-15 06:48:44 <cads> jrmithdobbs: we see what appear (to me) to be like paraodies of money laundering -  many small randomly chained transactions
 598 2013-03-15 06:48:50 <cads> but I think the reason for that is a technical one
 599 2013-03-15 06:49:00 <cyphase> as far as i'm concerned, the man can be a multi-billionaire
 600 2013-03-15 06:49:12 <cyphase> please, go ahead, you're welcome to, and thank you
 601 2013-03-15 06:49:14 <cyphase> :P
 602 2013-03-15 06:49:43 <cyphase> (assuming it's a man for sake of discussion)
 603 2013-03-15 06:49:51 <warren> I first saw bitcoin maybe April 2010.  I ran the client.  Read his paper.  Thought it was plausible, but I was sure that the government would have scared people away from it before it got any traction.
 604 2013-03-15 06:49:53 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: ya it was a very small number of people though, so where the (false) impression comes from at least makes sense
 605 2013-03-15 06:50:56 <cads> jrmithdobbs: It would be funny if the  obfuscated transactions _are_ in fact efforts to hide something
 606 2013-03-15 06:51:03 * jgarzik surfed in via the First Great Slashdot Wave (first bitcoin mention on slashdot in July).  Thought decentralized digital money was impossible, and was proved wrong ;p
 607 2013-03-15 06:51:18 <cads> it would be funny to see whether some of that behavior disappeared after the shamir paper
 608 2013-03-15 06:51:25 <amiller> i suddenly remember what i was doing when i first learned about bitcoin
 609 2013-03-15 06:51:33 <amiller> i was reading the anonymity papers on freehaven
 610 2013-03-15 06:51:57 <jrmithdobbs> cads: there's a couple different reasons for that, part of it is the coin selection code for the wallet stuff is, err, interesting so you see some of that, and all sorts of different people have experimented with mixing in different ways, yes, like i said, not interesting at all ;p
 611 2013-03-15 06:52:01 Ant0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 612 2013-03-15 06:52:21 <cads> aha
 613 2013-03-15 06:52:29 <cads> interesting.
 614 2013-03-15 06:52:48 <jrmithdobbs> cads: it'd be like someone posting a paper about aes and being like "DUDES THERE'S THESE THINGS CALLED FINITE FIELDS"
 615 2013-03-15 06:52:55 Ant0 has joined
 616 2013-03-15 06:52:57 <jrmithdobbs> was kind of my impression of that paper =/
 617 2013-03-15 06:53:14 <cads> hahaha
 618 2013-03-15 06:53:29 <jgarzik> they did write and publish before the coin selection change bug was fixed
 619 2013-03-15 06:53:39 <jrmithdobbs> he's not wrong, just irrelevent, basically
 620 2013-03-15 06:53:52 <cads> well at the time I read the paper I had only recently been introduced to the idea that the block chain is transparent
 621 2013-03-15 06:54:03 <jrmithdobbs> (like so much of his recent rambling :( jesus christ did you see him actually publicly say we don't need any more cryptography research at rsa con? ugh)
 622 2013-03-15 06:54:26 <cads> untill that point I was 'totally stoked' that btc let people buy pot over silk roan, like, man.
 623 2013-03-15 06:54:33 <cads> s/roan/road
 624 2013-03-15 06:54:38 <Diablo-D3> milk toad
 625 2013-03-15 06:55:00 <warren> dead puppies
 626 2013-03-15 06:55:04 <warren> we need more code names
 627 2013-03-15 06:55:20 <cads> jgarzik: btw thanks for making me even _more_ jealous of GA Tech: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Ramblinwreck.jpg
 628 2013-03-15 06:55:40 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 629 2013-03-15 06:55:41 <Diablo-D3> not enough boobs.
 630 2013-03-15 06:56:53 <Diablo-D3> that whole entire image is sexist
 631 2013-03-15 06:56:56 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 632 2013-03-15 06:57:13 <Diablo-D3> just because they're cheerleaders at some sort of tech school doesn't mean they can't have womanly figures too
 633 2013-03-15 06:57:22 <cads> says the man with not enough boobs
 634 2013-03-15 06:57:29 <Diablo-D3> its just telling women you can have smarts or looks but not both
 635 2013-03-15 06:57:31 copumpkin has joined
 636 2013-03-15 06:57:34 <cads> I mean
 637 2013-03-15 06:57:38 <cads> those girls don't look smart
 638 2013-03-15 06:57:47 <cads> and they're hawt
 639 2013-03-15 06:58:05 <Diablo-D3> they're 7/10 at the very best.
 640 2013-03-15 06:58:31 * warren notes the survey where apparently 105% Bitcoin users are male.
 641 2013-03-15 06:58:33 <cads> I guess this begger can't be a chooser
 642 2013-03-15 06:58:42 jok has joined
 643 2013-03-15 06:58:57 <Diablo-D3> warren: no, theres a few women
 644 2013-03-15 06:59:18 * cads appreciates an amazingly wide variety of female body types
 645 2013-03-15 06:59:23 <Diablo-D3> I don't approve of their use of bitcoins that way
 646 2013-03-15 06:59:23 <iwilcox> 110% of statistics are made up anyway
 647 2013-03-15 06:59:26 <Diablo-D3> but they do use it
 648 2013-03-15 06:59:36 <Diablo-D3> iwilcox: seriously? its down from 120% then
 649 2013-03-15 06:59:39 <warren> Oh.  Those.  Yikes.
 650 2013-03-15 06:59:53 <cads> I don't understand these white guys that are like "nah, not enough boobs" and I _can't_ understand them when they're like "butt's too big"
 651 2013-03-15 07:00:00 <cads> and I'm white!
 652 2013-03-15 07:00:04 oleganza has joined
 653 2013-03-15 07:00:11 <Diablo-D3> cads: I like it to be balanced.
 654 2013-03-15 07:00:21 <Diablo-D3> I also like them to not look like a 15 year old.
 655 2013-03-15 07:00:22 <iwilcox> Lop-sidedness bad?
 656 2013-03-15 07:00:36 <cads> what's wrong with a 15 year old?!
 657 2013-03-15 07:00:44 * Diablo-D3 calls the FBI on cads 
 658 2013-03-15 07:01:19 * warren watches the number grow to 106%.
 659 2013-03-15 07:01:20 <Diablo-D3> iwilcox: you need enough in the hips/ass area to balance out the boobs.
 660 2013-03-15 07:01:26 <cads> https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/285222_991922717472_353527270_n.jpg
 661 2013-03-15 07:01:28 <cads> her
 662 2013-03-15 07:01:33 <cads> sexy?
 663 2013-03-15 07:01:36 <cads> or not sexy?
 664 2013-03-15 07:01:44 <iwilcox> IsSheHotOrNot?
 665 2013-03-15 07:01:48 <cads> basically.
 666 2013-03-15 07:01:55 <cads> I'm testing Diablo-D3 to see what kind of man he is.
 667 2013-03-15 07:01:58 Ferroh_ has joined
 668 2013-03-15 07:02:17 <Diablo-D3> cads: I'm on the fense.
 669 2013-03-15 07:02:23 <cads> okay, good
 670 2013-03-15 07:02:27 <jrmithdobbs> cads: hint: takes tolls and may live under a water crossing
 671 2013-03-15 07:02:47 Ferroh has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 672 2013-03-15 07:02:49 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
 673 2013-03-15 07:02:52 <cads> I'm disappointed, jrmithdobbs  ;)
 674 2013-03-15 07:02:58 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: <3
 675 2013-03-15 07:03:05 sl1982 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 676 2013-03-15 07:03:28 <Diablo-D3> lol jrmithdobbs
 677 2013-03-15 07:03:50 <cads> as I said, I think it's best to appreciate a wide variety of women, and leave out thoughts of "not enough" this or that
 678 2013-03-15 07:04:04 <cads> those are... extraneous thoughts
 679 2013-03-15 07:04:20 <cads> that a true woman's man does not need to be plagued by
 680 2013-03-15 07:04:44 <jrmithdobbs> they were still a bunch of skinny ass white bitches
 681 2013-03-15 07:04:51 <jrmithdobbs> that looked 15
 682 2013-03-15 07:05:04 <iwilcox> cads: I think you're best sticking *with* "not enough years on her"
 683 2013-03-15 07:05:05 sl1982 has joined
 684 2013-03-15 07:05:42 <cads> iwilcox: don't I know it :P
 685 2013-03-15 07:05:46 <amiller> now the conversation belongs in otc
 686 2013-03-15 07:05:49 <cads> yes
 687 2013-03-15 07:05:58 * cads stops polluting the channel
 688 2013-03-15 07:06:05 <Diablo-D3> well, that chick laying in the junk food
 689 2013-03-15 07:06:14 <Diablo-D3> I think after several years of eating the diablo diet
 690 2013-03-15 07:06:19 <Diablo-D3> she would be done.
 691 2013-03-15 07:06:22 <nanotube> amiller: not otc. -offtopic. :P
 692 2013-03-15 07:06:40 zorg2 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 693 2013-03-15 07:07:09 Ant0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 694 2013-03-15 07:08:25 <jrmithdobbs> cads: anyways, i think there's some things that need solving before even doing simpler agents
 695 2013-03-15 07:09:38 Ant0 has joined
 696 2013-03-15 07:10:34 <jrmithdobbs> cads: eg, one thing you need to make the whole thing work is automated/triggered signing for some of the auditibility stuff, which means someone needs to spend time seeing if the implementations of the ec curve bitcoin uses everyone is using is actually safe to use like that (probably not, there are countermeasures for this ... I don't think anyone's looked at it enough to have confidence in the countermeasures for ai-controlled wallets, at l
 697 2013-03-15 07:11:18 <jrmithdobbs> so it's not all just the fun stuff that needs implementing ;p
 698 2013-03-15 07:12:05 <cads> I feel like the community is an analysis paralysis regarding what needs to be done :)
 699 2013-03-15 07:12:12 <cads> s/an/in
 700 2013-03-15 07:12:18 <jrmithdobbs> well there's a problem
 701 2013-03-15 07:12:25 <jrmithdobbs> the way I see it anyways
 702 2013-03-15 07:12:37 coolfengyu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 703 2013-03-15 07:12:43 <jrmithdobbs> all this stuff is *a lot* of hard work, and noone is demanding any of it
 704 2013-03-15 07:12:49 <jrmithdobbs> so noone is paying for any of it
 705 2013-03-15 07:12:56 <jrmithdobbs> and mystery solved
 706 2013-03-15 07:13:05 <cads> right
 707 2013-03-15 07:13:47 <cads> all the ideas are intellectually satisfying, but none of them have a price tag anyone is willing to pay
 708 2013-03-15 07:13:57 Halftimepad has joined
 709 2013-03-15 07:14:10 <cads> this is why I'm thinking of the most intellectually _dissatisfying_ agent architecture possible
 710 2013-03-15 07:14:25 <cads> in hopes that I can get drunk in one night and have it by the morning :D
 711 2013-03-15 07:14:29 <jrmithdobbs> i'm actually not entirely confident the way most (well the few that exist) merchants use bitcoind for automated signing is safe for similar reasons (though, not as risky because most of that requires multiple observed signings under the same key)
 712 2013-03-15 07:14:44 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
 713 2013-03-15 07:14:52 <cads> in fact, can I make an agent that just.. loses any money you give to it?
 714 2013-03-15 07:14:58 Ant0 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 715 2013-03-15 07:15:00 <cads> that should be possible, right?
 716 2013-03-15 07:15:05 <jrmithdobbs> yes, you can actually make an agent that burns coins
 717 2013-03-15 07:15:21 <jrmithdobbs> burning coins is easy!
 718 2013-03-15 07:15:42 <jgarzik> petertodd documented multiple easy ways to burn coins ;p
 719 2013-03-15 07:15:48 <Halftimepad> fbi miners now in operation. Panic panic. Sell sell sell.
 720 2013-03-15 07:16:08 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: there's like 50 different ways to do it accidentally if you just read the ancient dev posts on trolltalk, ha
 721 2013-03-15 07:16:31 Ant0 has joined
 722 2013-03-15 07:16:37 Halftimepad has joined
 723 2013-03-15 07:16:54 <cads> agents that just hold money, or that have to be hardwired with money, or that lose money, or that just give the money to the next person that asks, not to ruffle feathers, but honestly I think these kinds of agents are more our speed, for the foreseeable future.
 724 2013-03-15 07:17:14 <cads> the main thing this does is hype agents and get people interested in them, and give them a platform to hack
 725 2013-03-15 07:17:26 <cads> even if they're just a joke
 726 2013-03-15 07:17:28 coolfengyu has joined
 727 2013-03-15 07:17:50 <jrmithdobbs> definitely, those kinds of projects just stopped getting done once things were actually worth money, ha
 728 2013-03-15 07:17:51 <amiller> cads i agree totally
 729 2013-03-15 07:17:56 <cads> the inventive to make the agents better rises as a function of the thought share these agents recieve
 730 2013-03-15 07:17:59 <amiller> i think the best thing is to make bitcoin bots/agents that _do things_
 731 2013-03-15 07:18:04 <amiller> like observable things that are obviously not free
 732 2013-03-15 07:18:08 <jgarzik> +100
 733 2013-03-15 07:18:27 <amiller> but are small scale enough that people won't feel afraid to try them out
 734 2013-03-15 07:18:35 <cads> exactly
 735 2013-03-15 07:18:44 <cads> pay a bitcoin to be told your future
 736 2013-03-15 07:18:47 <cads> err
 737 2013-03-15 07:18:50 <jrmithdobbs> i don't know if irc-based is going to reach your target audience necessarily, but it could be a start
 738 2013-03-15 07:18:52 <cads> 0.00001 btc
 739 2013-03-15 07:18:53 <amiller> i run into a lot of people that i would love to give $10 in btc to and say go play with it but it's hard to do anything that much fun wiht that little shipping costs being what they are
 740 2013-03-15 07:18:57 <amiller> yeah exactly cads!
 741 2013-03-15 07:19:02 <amiller> the sort of things you see in festivals
 742 2013-03-15 07:19:13 <amiller> make your photo look extra stupid and post it to your facebook page 0.001btc
 743 2013-03-15 07:19:19 <cads> bam
 744 2013-03-15 07:19:33 <amiller> play shitty claw game maybe win a bitcoin or whatever $0.000001
 745 2013-03-15 07:19:37 <jgarzik> If you can create a machine-provable condition, you can create an "oracle" bot.  In turn, create an escrow bot that holds BTC in escrow until the oracle bot indicates the condition is satisfied (or not).
 746 2013-03-15 07:19:40 <iwilcox> Can I pay a bitcoin to be told Bitcoin's future?  That'd be neat.
 747 2013-03-15 07:19:50 <cads> jgarzik: dumb it down
 748 2013-03-15 07:19:55 <jgarzik> oracle bot could be as simple as "did USPS tracking number NNN arrive?"
 749 2013-03-15 07:19:55 Ant0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 750 2013-03-15 07:20:01 <jrmithdobbs> cads: no that one's easier than it sounds
 751 2013-03-15 07:20:02 <jgarzik> simple API call
 752 2013-03-15 07:20:04 <cads> you just described a 50 thousand dollar project
 753 2013-03-15 07:20:10 <jgarzik> not at all
 754 2013-03-15 07:20:17 <jrmithdobbs> cads: no, gavin used to run that project
 755 2013-03-15 07:20:23 <jrmithdobbs> cads: only it was http pased
 756 2013-03-15 07:20:31 <jrmithdobbs> s/pased/based/
 757 2013-03-15 07:20:34 Ant0 has joined
 758 2013-03-15 07:20:35 <cads> hmm, okay
 759 2013-03-15 07:20:58 <amiller> jgarzik here you're talking about an application that is only as good as its secure and will only be worth fussing with for something real valuable
 760 2013-03-15 07:21:00 <jrmithdobbs> i guess i'm kind of responsible for it being killed actually, sorry =/
 761 2013-03-15 07:21:07 <jrmithdobbs> heh
 762 2013-03-15 07:21:18 <amiller> dumb it down is totally right here
 763 2013-03-15 07:21:27 <amiller> do you all know the reddit tip bot that one is pretty good
 764 2013-03-15 07:21:43 <jgarzik> escrow, oracle, and micropayment bots are all quite straightforward
 765 2013-03-15 07:22:17 <amiller> i want to make a bitcoin amazon mturk interface
 766 2013-03-15 07:22:21 <amiller> like pay $.0001
 767 2013-03-15 07:22:23 <jgarzik> even an escrow-based auction bot is possible
 768 2013-03-15 07:22:27 <jrmithdobbs> you could do an oauth-like service with membership fees pretty easy too
 769 2013-03-15 07:22:28 <amiller> and some jerk in india draws you a picture of a goat
 770 2013-03-15 07:22:29 <jgarzik> amiller: someone already did that
 771 2013-03-15 07:22:59 <jrmithdobbs> basically just a function of the escrow bot except add an audit point to prove funds are there, so long as this month's funds are there your auth succeeds ;p
 772 2013-03-15 07:23:01 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
 773 2013-03-15 07:23:05 <cads> oh, another thing -- at first bots are going to either die regularly, or require human intervention
 774 2013-03-15 07:23:07 <amiller> no i mean a stylized/specialized interface that uses actual amazon mturk as abackend
 775 2013-03-15 07:23:12 <amiller> cads yes totally
 776 2013-03-15 07:23:14 <jgarzik> cads: yes
 777 2013-03-15 07:23:15 <amiller> they'll fail arbitrarily
 778 2013-03-15 07:23:20 <jrmithdobbs> (and you can sign something proving it's your escrow)
 779 2013-03-15 07:23:21 <amiller> stakes low = innovative ok
 780 2013-03-15 07:23:29 <cads> amiller: exactly
 781 2013-03-15 07:23:37 <jgarzik> cads: you can do a network of 3, 5 or 7 bots (etc.)
 782 2013-03-15 07:23:40 <jgarzik> cads: run paxos
 783 2013-03-15 07:24:12 <Halftimepad> How about a ant that sells your bitcoin for you at double price. Donate to me. Ill show you this is not a scam.
 784 2013-03-15 07:24:16 <cads> if I can release a bot into the wild for $10, I know I'd do it (every month until they stayed alive, hell)
 785 2013-03-15 07:24:27 <jgarzik> ;;kban Halftimepad 80000
 786 2013-03-15 07:24:27 <gribble> Error: You don't have the #bitcoin-dev,op capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
 787 2013-03-15 07:25:31 Ant0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 788 2013-03-15 07:25:48 <cads> guys - sorry, off topic: http://uscop.org/the-nypd-declares-martial-law-in-brooklyn/
 789 2013-03-15 07:25:57 <cads> perhaps relevant to some
 790 2013-03-15 07:26:01 <cads> anyways
 791 2013-03-15 07:26:04 <jgarzik> cads: off topic
 792 2013-03-15 07:26:16 Ant0 has joined
 793 2013-03-15 07:27:01 <jrmithdobbs> cads: so what's needed? an easy to deploy/replicate platform that's portable ... i bet you could whip up half of what you need in node in a few days if you just want to start with low value things to play with and should be something you can easily tack on the replication/service purchasing automation stuff later ;p
 794 2013-03-15 07:27:06 zooko has joined
 795 2013-03-15 07:27:17 <RoboTeddy> is there a way to consistently generate 1MB blocks that don't cause <=0.7 to go over its lock limit? (or aren't we sure yet?)
 796 2013-03-15 07:27:27 gyver has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 797 2013-03-15 07:28:19 <jrmithdobbs> cads: or go, or any of the newfangled scripting engines that are tiny and just give a single binary to deploy per os/arch
 798 2013-03-15 07:29:19 <cads> jrmithdobbs: as I mention I'm a mathy, not a codey, so I'm intimidated by even a 'hello world' of an agent. But I have a week off coming up, and I want to get familiar with the BTC APIs _anyways_, so hell, worst case I'll have nothing to show and a week enjoyably occupied with learnings.
 799 2013-03-15 07:30:03 <cads> I'll be pestering you guys the minute I hit a snag ;)
 800 2013-03-15 07:30:08 <jgarzik> and an auction bot
 801 2013-03-15 07:30:20 <jgarzik> bot can hold funds, proving that the auction winner pays
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 803 2013-03-15 07:30:50 <iwilcox> Are scriptSig and scriptPubKey so named because that's what's typically in them?
 804 2013-03-15 07:30:53 <jgarzik> work in conjunction with a micropayment bot, to take/release funds, as bidders go high/low
 805 2013-03-15 07:30:59 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: auction is just a specialized escrow too isn't it?
 806 2013-03-15 07:31:01 <iwilcox> It's a little confusing to this n00b.
 807 2013-03-15 07:31:02 <jgarzik> iwilcox: probably
 808 2013-03-15 07:31:06 <jrmithdobbs> when it comes down to it
 809 2013-03-15 07:31:16 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: A fair point, never thought about it that way :)  but yes
 810 2013-03-15 07:31:37 <jgarzik> escrow, auction, oracle, micropayment bot
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 813 2013-03-15 07:31:53 <jgarzik> and you need an identity bot to wrap it all up
 814 2013-03-15 07:32:02 <warren> decentralized auctions would have interesting last minute bid behavior
 815 2013-03-15 07:32:31 <cads> jgarzik: haha, you said identity bot and I though identity function from category theory
 816 2013-03-15 07:32:37 <jrmithdobbs> warren: not really
 817 2013-03-15 07:32:44 <cads> jgarzik: basically the function that does nothing
 818 2013-03-15 07:32:44 <jrmithdobbs> warren: you're thinking too literally
 819 2013-03-15 07:33:33 <iwilcox> jgarzik: I ask because it seems to me they'd be more accurately named 'scriptConstantsToPush' and 'script', and I keep reading 'scriptSig' as 'signature of the script'
 820 2013-03-15 07:33:54 <jrmithdobbs> warren: you don't have a 'last second' you have a 'last bid period' after which all are evaluated and highest wins, eg, if you did *on the chain* (please don't) the last bid time would be the last block before the end of the auction
 821 2013-03-15 07:34:13 <jrmithdobbs> so biggest one in that block wins
 822 2013-03-15 07:34:15 <andytoshi> iwilcox: i agree, the names aren't very good
 823 2013-03-15 07:34:22 <jrmithdobbs> for instance
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 825 2013-03-15 07:34:31 <warren> jrmithdobbs: the biggest tx wins, the others are ignored?
 826 2013-03-15 07:34:38 <cads> jgarzik: an 'identity agent', in that interpretation, is an agent I which, when combined with another agent X gives an agent IX which is exactly identical in function to X. It's basically an agent that consists of an empty file.
 827 2013-03-15 07:34:38 <andytoshi> but you are understanding correctly
 828 2013-03-15 07:34:48 <jrmithdobbs> warren: they're returned to the bidders, yes
 829 2013-03-15 07:35:01 <iwilcox> andytoshi: OK, ta, was just sanity-checking that I wasn't missing what they really did.  (scriptPubKey seems the worse of the two)
 830 2013-03-15 07:35:37 <cads> jgarzik: that would be a mathematically satisfying place to start, since you always define your most trivial object first.
 831 2013-03-15 07:35:39 <warren> jrmithdobbs: here's a case where intentionally time limited tx's would be desirable, less blockchain spam.
 832 2013-03-15 07:35:41 <jrmithdobbs> warren: it's a specialized form of escrow, a "bid" is putting the payment into escrow, after the cutoff, largest ammount in escrow frow single source wins, all others either timeout or are refunded by the escrow agent (depending on semantics of the escrow setup)
 833 2013-03-15 07:36:07 <jrmithdobbs> warren: no, this shouldn't be on the chain at all
 834 2013-03-15 07:36:21 <jrmithdobbs> doesn't even need to be on the p2p net
 835 2013-03-15 07:36:23 <warren> oh.  you're still talking about the trusted agent tihng.
 836 2013-03-15 07:36:31 <jrmithdobbs> not trusted, but ya
 837 2013-03-15 07:37:40 <jgarzik> +1 :)
 838 2013-03-15 07:38:17 <warren> jrmithdobbs: could the actual payment tx be embedded in the bids, but encrypted to a particular key, and the receiving agent evaluates the highest bid and sends only that for the miners?
 839 2013-03-15 07:38:23 <jrmithdobbs> but, you can do better on-chain escrow that has better properties for escrow in general (I wouldn't use it for bidding/auctions, though)
 840 2013-03-15 07:38:31 <jrmithdobbs> that just requires ops that are off
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 843 2013-03-15 07:39:16 <iwilcox> andytoshi: Beyond pushing constants to provide input, what might the redeeming transaction do in its half of the script?
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 845 2013-03-15 07:40:12 <jgarzik> and what is an on-going, never ending auction?
 846 2013-03-15 07:40:15 <jgarzik> a market :)
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 848 2013-03-15 07:40:21 <jrmithdobbs> warren: you could come up with something like that but it opens up things i'm not comfortable with considering you can avoid it
 849 2013-03-15 07:40:39 <andytoshi> iwilcox: in principle, anything, but i can't think of an actual script that would use more than just constants
 850 2013-03-15 07:40:43 <warren> ah... the receiver could spend *all* the bids.
 851 2013-03-15 07:40:46 <andytoshi> maybe i'm just tired..
 852 2013-03-15 07:40:53 <jrmithdobbs> warren: you can fix it so it can't
 853 2013-03-15 07:40:58 <jrmithdobbs> warren: but it complicates things, ya
 854 2013-03-15 07:41:08 * cads looks at tonights conversation
 855 2013-03-15 07:41:11 <jgarzik> warren: you can collectively create transactions where that is avoided, but it is a pain
 856 2013-03-15 07:41:26 <iwilcox> andytoshi: It'd seem strange to execute anything given that you can surely do it in client code, yeah
 857 2013-03-15 07:41:31 <cads> it's going to be a bit of a bitch to turn these into 'minutes' :)
 858 2013-03-15 07:41:47 <warren> -dev requires minutes?
 859 2013-03-15 07:41:54 * cads hates taking notes/minutes
 860 2013-03-15 07:42:12 <iwilcox> egrep -v '(15|boobs)' ?
 861 2013-03-15 07:42:15 <cads> warren: personal notes for whatever agent project I might begin
 862 2013-03-15 07:42:20 <andytoshi> iwilcox: yeah, exactly
 863 2013-03-15 07:42:25 <cads> ahaha
 864 2013-03-15 07:42:28 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: you can also blind everything until the last moment and then reveal something to the auctioner to redeem
 865 2013-03-15 07:42:56 <andytoshi> iwilcox: if transactions could somehow get access to, say, other transactions or block metadata or something, maybe something cool could be done
 866 2013-03-15 07:42:57 <jrmithdobbs> it leaves open the case of an unresolved auction though which is less pretty (but workable)
 867 2013-03-15 07:43:05 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: indeed * 2
 868 2013-03-15 07:43:10 <cads> btw I disagree that those girls looked 15 :P and think you guys are all nuts.
 869 2013-03-15 07:43:17 <jgarzik> time for Person Of Interest
 870 2013-03-15 07:43:20 <jgarzik> then back to bots :)
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 874 2013-03-15 07:44:38 <cads> hey guys, gotta catch some sleep
 875 2013-03-15 07:44:44 <jrmithdobbs> cads: anyways, ya, we've thought about all this, then we talk about it for a few hours, and that's kind of where it stops ;p
 876 2013-03-15 07:44:55 <jrmithdobbs> it's all doable!
 877 2013-03-15 07:45:12 <amiller> do it and receive bitcoins
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 879 2013-03-15 07:45:32 <cads> I'm going to do my best to insult you guys so much with the code that you'll _have_ to start parallel projects
 880 2013-03-15 07:45:46 <amiller> my mouth waters
 881 2013-03-15 07:45:53 <cads> so that I don't give agents a bad name.
 882 2013-03-15 07:45:59 <cads> ;)
 883 2013-03-15 07:46:06 <jrmithdobbs> that's worked on jgarzik a few times recently, careful what you wish for
 884 2013-03-15 07:46:07 <jrmithdobbs> ha
 885 2013-03-15 07:46:25 <amiller> sometimes i think the best way to get people to do something is to do it wrong right in front of them
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 887 2013-03-15 07:46:29 <cads> I hate to think the community would need _reverse psychology_ but it ... feels rightly
 888 2013-03-15 07:46:30 <amiller> they can't help but cringe and then just do it thmeselves
 889 2013-03-15 07:46:32 <cads> it'd work.
 890 2013-03-15 07:46:35 <cads> you know it would.
 891 2013-03-15 07:47:01 <jrmithdobbs> amiller: s/people/engineers/
 892 2013-03-15 07:47:35 <cads> hah, _yes_
 893 2013-03-15 07:47:37 <amiller> sure, i agree with that
 894 2013-03-15 07:47:44 <jrmithdobbs> and i just learned javascript because phantomcircuit did it to me
 895 2013-03-15 07:47:45 <cads> it doesn't work with normal people
 896 2013-03-15 07:47:45 <jrmithdobbs> bastard
 897 2013-03-15 07:47:49 <jrmithdobbs> fucking bastard.
 898 2013-03-15 07:47:57 <phantomcircuit> aahahaha
 899 2013-03-15 07:48:13 <amiller> (i thought he just wanted to turn everyone with engineers)
 900 2013-03-15 07:48:20 <amiller> s/with/into
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 902 2013-03-15 07:48:38 <jrmithdobbs> amiller: no i mean that works on engineers, it actually pisses off most normal people
 903 2013-03-15 07:49:19 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: never forgiving you for that btw.
 904 2013-03-15 07:49:29 <phantomcircuit> lolll
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 906 2013-03-15 07:52:56 <randy-waterhouse> i stopped falling for that
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 914 2013-03-15 08:07:42 <Halftimepad> ;;  --ticker
 915 2013-03-15 08:07:43 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 47.00001, Best ask: 47.20000, Bid-ask spread: 0.19999, Last trade: 47.20000, 24 hour volume: 30071.48661910, 24 hour low: 46.05000, 24 hour high: 47.96000, 24 hour vwap: 47.16069
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 917 2013-03-15 08:10:11 <Halftimepad> Yay the price is going up. :D
 918 2013-03-15 08:10:40 <Halftimepad> Sweet money go up up.
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 938 2013-03-15 08:35:48 <Sargun> Hey
 939 2013-03-15 08:36:53 <Sargun> So, I'm curious as to how the bitcoin community built all these ASICs
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 942 2013-03-15 08:38:03 <cads> as in "what is the process of designing an ASIC"?
 943 2013-03-15 08:38:26 <cads> I believe the first generation were FPGAs?
 944 2013-03-15 08:38:43 zer0def has joined
 945 2013-03-15 08:38:45 <cads> that's usually how it works
 946 2013-03-15 08:40:05 <cads> I mean, it's not even a very specialized asic - wouldn't you simply have a die with a bunch of hashing subunits?
 947 2013-03-15 08:40:44 <cads> what are your thoughts, Sargun, or were you trying to hit some kind of 'conspiracy' angle
 948 2013-03-15 08:40:52 <cyphase> yea, i remember people saying they were going to be bitcoin specific, as opposed to generic sha machines
 949 2013-03-15 08:41:35 johnsoft has joined
 950 2013-03-15 08:41:35 <iwilcox> SHA256 is probably an opcode in x86, knowing Intel :)
 951 2013-03-15 08:41:40 <Sargun> cads: Nah, I'm just surprised, ASICs are incredibly expensive to design and build.
 952 2013-03-15 08:41:40 <cads> generic sha machines are almost already bitcoin specific, but I can think of at least a few features I'd want on top of that :)
 953 2013-03-15 08:41:41 moarrr has joined
 954 2013-03-15 08:41:50 <cyphase> if bitcoins are so valuable, why don't the asic manufacturers use them to mine?!?!?!?!?!
 955 2013-03-15 08:42:05 bitafterbit has joined
 956 2013-03-15 08:42:08 <iwilcox> ASICminer do exactly that.
 957 2013-03-15 08:42:09 <axxlx> is this (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script) the official documentation? cant find OP_SCRIPTHASH and OP_SMALLINTEGER
 958 2013-03-15 08:42:50 <cyphase> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
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 962 2013-03-15 08:44:01 <Sargun> cads: Considering it's typically in the $250K+ Range for design, and then it's kind of expensive to have a mask made, and then wafers are like ~$5k a piece...
 963 2013-03-15 08:44:16 <Sargun> I'm just curious if these people have figured out how to design, and fab super cheaply
 964 2013-03-15 08:44:27 <Sargun> Or, if people are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars
 965 2013-03-15 08:44:32 <iwilcox> axxlx: I think the official line is that the code is the only official documentation.
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 967 2013-03-15 08:44:44 <axxlx> i see
 968 2013-03-15 08:44:47 <iwilcox> axxlx: Anything else is best-effort
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 970 2013-03-15 08:47:00 <axxlx> thanks
 971 2013-03-15 08:47:00 * axxlx digs into the code
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 973 2013-03-15 08:49:13 <Sargun> How come you guys didn't use sASICs?
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 988 2013-03-15 08:57:41 <_dr> i guess you can get stuff cheaper than $250K+
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 990 2013-03-15 08:59:22 <_dr> using university discount (don't know how much that is), we got the mask for a chip that was created as part of a lecture for <5k euro, once the mask is done, follow-up orders are more or less for free
 991 2013-03-15 08:59:30 <_dr> free being relative to the initial cost
 992 2013-03-15 09:00:35 <_dr> but since it is our first asic, it remains to be seen if our design actually works :-}
 993 2013-03-15 09:00:49 <warren> Sargun: I suspect the ASIC companies did the math and realized mining themself would be less profitable than selling them.  Look at the current trend of yet more people buying GPU's for mining when we're at the edge of where mining with GPU's is power cost unprofitable.  The ASIC's cost significantly more per unit, and have long lead times, so people buying them have no idea what the mining hash rate will be by the time they get it.  All the whi
 994 2013-03-15 09:00:49 <warren> le more people will jump in the mining bandwagon for "free money" well past the point of profit.  You know what they say about selling shovels to miners...
 995 2013-03-15 09:01:26 <JyZyXEL> why is 0.00000001 BTC called Satoshi?
 996 2013-03-15 09:01:33 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
 997 2013-03-15 09:01:53 <JyZyXEL> smallest possible unit allowed by the protocol?
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1000 2013-03-15 09:02:24 <_dr> JyZyXEL: quote "A bitcoin can be divided down to 8 decimal places. Therefore, 0.00000001 BTC is the smallest amount that can be handled in a transaction. If necessary, the protocol and related software can be modified to handle even smaller amounts."
1001 2013-03-15 09:02:40 <JyZyXEL> how much smaller
1002 2013-03-15 09:02:48 <_dr> as small as you want
1003 2013-03-15 09:03:51 <_dr> all depends on how many bits you're willing to spend for representing the amount
1004 2013-03-15 09:04:48 <JyZyXEL> then the maximum transaction/block size will be the limit?
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1006 2013-03-15 09:04:59 <cyphase> 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 bitcoins
1007 2013-03-15 09:05:12 <_dr> JyZyXEL: you are correct :) but you can change that too
1008 2013-03-15 09:05:30 <BTC_Bear> So ironically the currency is flipped. In traditionally there is no high limit but a definite base unit. So, you should subtract from high unit.
1009 2013-03-15 09:05:43 <BTC_Bear> *traditional fiat
1010 2013-03-15 09:06:14 <BTC_Bear> ∞ division is not the answer.
1011 2013-03-15 09:06:43 <_dr> you could do the numbers and assume all the money in the world would be in bitcoin, how much would one satoshi be equivalent to
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1013 2013-03-15 09:06:53 <o-p> For the gentoo package (bitcoind and bitcoin-qt), what does the eligius USE flag do?
1014 2013-03-15 09:07:12 <o-p> "Enable using lower fees accepted by Eligius"
1015 2013-03-15 09:07:51 <o-p> and how is this better than default?
1016 2013-03-15 09:07:53 <BTC_Bear> _dr: If all the money in the world would be in bitcoin, a satoshi would be equivalent to a satoshi. :P
1017 2013-03-15 09:08:04 <_dr> assuming you're ok with 1 satoshi = 1cent then the current division would be ok until 1btc = 100,000,000$
1018 2013-03-15 09:08:10 <Ac-town> o-p: this in the portage overlay?
1019 2013-03-15 09:08:26 <o-p> ya default overlay I believe
1020 2013-03-15 09:08:33 <o-p> 0.6.3
1021 2013-03-15 09:08:37 <o-p> kinda old
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1024 2013-03-15 09:09:12 <BTC_Bear> _dr: i.e. I save 10K BTC, it's assumed lost, BTC is further divided, I gain even more wealth. Or my kids, grand kids, etc..
1025 2013-03-15 09:09:27 <Ac-town> o-p: not sure what it does but you can look at the source of the patch: http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/bitcoind/eligius/sendfee/0.7.1-eligius_sendfee.patch.xz
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1028 2013-03-15 09:10:37 <JyZyXEL> one day, 10k of BTC will buy you a country
1029 2013-03-15 09:10:42 <cyphase> i believe there's something like $50 trillion worth of currency out in the world
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1031 2013-03-15 09:11:11 <BTC_Bear> cyphase: you mean actually printed currency.
1032 2013-03-15 09:11:18 <cyphase> that's $2380952.380952381 per bitcoin
1033 2013-03-15 09:11:34 <cyphase> BTC_Bear, no, all currency, including numbers in government computers :)
1034 2013-03-15 09:11:50 <BTC_Bear> That can't be right then.
1035 2013-03-15 09:12:31 <cyphase> i think there's a report from merill lynch in 2010 that said 47+ trillion
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1037 2013-03-15 09:13:27 <_dr> BTC_Bear: i was just trying to point out that the current divisability is probably enough for a long time :)
1038 2013-03-15 09:14:17 <BTC_Bear> Yes, it's hard to tell. You need to be able to quantify the amount of btc being lost due to attrition.
1039 2013-03-15 09:14:42 <cyphase> if one satoshi was worth $0.01, bitcoin's market cap would be $21 trillion
1040 2013-03-15 09:14:43 <_dr> that's true. i didn't factor that in
1041 2013-03-15 09:16:12 <JyZyXEL> how many blocks were orphaned due to the whole 0.7 vs 0.8 thingy?
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1068 2013-03-15 09:49:54 <Sargun> _dr: What was your design? And what was your process?
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1071 2013-03-15 09:50:26 <Sargun> warren: That makes sense.
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1081 2013-03-15 10:03:11 <_dr> Sargun: don't ask me. do i hpc at the chair i work, not the fpga/asic/vhdl-'crap' :)
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1108 2013-03-15 10:50:25 <cyphase> is there any analysis on how frequent double-spends are and how they turn out? e.g. does the first or second recipient get the bitcoins
1109 2013-03-15 10:53:39 <jurov> there's doublespends page on blockchain.info. and how would you say who is first or second?
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1111 2013-03-15 10:54:12 <lianj> the one who screams later is second :/ :D
1112 2013-03-15 10:56:06 <cyphase> lol
1113 2013-03-15 10:56:31 <warren> jurov: consult the wall of morons in the forum
1114 2013-03-15 10:56:33 <cyphase> jurov, by which transaction appeared on the network first
1115 2013-03-15 10:56:47 <iwilcox> But "the network" is distributed.
1116 2013-03-15 10:59:26 <RoboTeddy> JyZyXEL: 25 blocks orphaned
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1120 2013-03-15 10:59:49 <JyZyXEL> could have been a lot worse
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1123 2013-03-15 11:05:17 <sipa> cyphase: the one that makes it into a block (which gets extended to be the main chain)
1124 2013-03-15 11:05:38 <sipa> oh, that was not your question i suppose
1125 2013-03-15 11:05:44 <cyphase> no :)
1126 2013-03-15 11:05:55 <sipa> well, if we had a reliable way to determine which was first, we wouldn't need a blockchain at all
1127 2013-03-15 11:05:59 <cyphase> but thanks for the effort :P
1128 2013-03-15 11:06:01 <kinlo> what's the size of your memory pools atm?
1129 2013-03-15 11:07:00 <cyphase> sipa, maybe not reliable, but couldn't someone connect to lots of nodes and watch which transactions come at which times?
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1131 2013-03-15 11:07:16 <sipa> kinlo: ~1100
1132 2013-03-15 11:07:31 <kinlo> I've got ~5000, seems a bit much
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1134 2013-03-15 11:07:41 <sipa> kinlo: which bitcoin version?
1135 2013-03-15 11:07:44 <kinlo> 0.7.2
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1137 2013-03-15 11:08:10 <sipa> right, pre-0.8 doesn't remove conflicts from the mempool
1138 2013-03-15 11:08:25 <sipa> so you may see a difference between thse
1139 2013-03-15 11:08:39 <iwilcox> cyphase: The concept of 'time' on a network is very tricky.
1140 2013-03-15 11:08:52 <cyphase> yea, i know
1141 2013-03-15 11:08:57 <sipa> as observed by a single node, time is measurable
1142 2013-03-15 11:09:16 <sipa> so yes, you could do such an analysis
1143 2013-03-15 11:10:05 <kinlo> sipa: how does 0.8 remove conflicts, something that is a conflict can later still be the only one included in a block...
1144 2013-03-15 11:10:53 <sipa> kinlo: conflict as in with the blockchain
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1146 2013-03-15 11:11:27 <kinlo> sipa: so the memory pool of 0.8 is never cleared out of transactions that will never ever make it?
1147 2013-03-15 11:11:35 <sipa> kinlo: ?
1148 2013-03-15 11:11:46 <sipa> in pre-0.8
1149 2013-03-15 11:11:52 <sipa> 0.8 does remove conflicts
1150 2013-03-15 11:11:58 <kinlo> once it conflicts with the blockchain, the transaction will never be able to be included
1151 2013-03-15 11:12:02 <kinlo> yes, talking pre 0.8
1152 2013-03-15 11:12:10 <sipa> extremely unlikely
1153 2013-03-15 11:12:11 <kinlo> just trying to understand the behaviour here
1154 2013-03-15 11:12:22 <kinlo> yeah, ofcourse, there could always be a fork
1155 2013-03-15 11:12:31 <sipa> so i'm saying that if you're running <0.8, you'll likely see accumulating conflicts
1156 2013-03-15 11:12:32 <kinlo> but given there is no fork, those transactions will never mike it
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1158 2013-03-15 11:12:50 <sipa> and there are quite a few of those these days
1159 2013-03-15 11:12:59 <kinlo> so basicly, <0.8 will increase its memory usage forever?
1160 2013-03-15 11:13:12 <sipa> well, 0.8 too, but more slowly
1161 2013-03-15 11:13:33 <sipa> as the mempool is essentially unbounded (though in practice still accounts for a small fraction of memory usage)
1162 2013-03-15 11:14:02 <thepok> that doesnt sound nice
1163 2013-03-15 11:14:27 <thepok> they should have a halflifetime
1164 2013-03-15 11:14:37 <sipa> thepok: just a memory bound
1165 2013-03-15 11:14:49 <sipa> thepok: once the size limit it reached, drop things at random
1166 2013-03-15 11:14:51 <sipa> (imho)
1167 2013-03-15 11:15:05 <sipa> but there are different opinions about this
1168 2013-03-15 11:15:22 <kinlo> sipa: well, *all* transactions must be evaluated in order to build a block template right?   Does it make sense to restart bitcoind to empty the memory pool from time to time?
1169 2013-03-15 11:16:03 <sipa> kinlo: i guess, but transactions in the memory pool give the network a first base attempt at double spend security
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1172 2013-03-15 11:19:07 <cyphase> how many confirmations would you wait for if you were selling something worth $10 million dollars?
1173 2013-03-15 11:19:32 <sipa> 100?
1174 2013-03-15 11:19:36 <cyphase> i guess "$10 million dollars" is redundant i guess
1175 2013-03-15 11:20:11 <kinlo> cyphase: just verify manually, if the blockchain is clearly not in fork you shouldn't have too many confirmations
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1178 2013-03-15 11:20:31 <sipa> still, i can't imagine such a transaction can't wait a day
1179 2013-03-15 11:20:32 <kinlo> I wouldn't handle that amount automatically tough
1180 2013-03-15 11:20:32 <cyphase> sipa, the same amount as you wait for the ~$1250 worth of bitcoins generated in a block? :P
1181 2013-03-15 11:20:42 <sipa> cyphase: that has different reasons
1182 2013-03-15 11:20:52 <cyphase> i know, i wa sonly half serious
1183 2013-03-15 11:20:55 <cyphase> was only*
1184 2013-03-15 11:21:32 <cyphase> so to what extent is confirmations to wait for a function of value?
1185 2013-03-15 11:21:48 <cyphase> or i suppose, what is the function :)
1186 2013-03-15 11:22:17 <sipa> confirmations are a measure for the chance of reversal
1187 2013-03-15 11:22:30 <cyphase> yea, i understand that
1188 2013-03-15 11:22:40 randy-waterhouse has left ("Freedom.")
1189 2013-03-15 11:22:49 <sipa> but not the only one... indeed the presence of a network fork means confirmations become less meaningful
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1197 2013-03-15 11:29:40 <homburg> hello, started today playing around with bitcoind -daemon and now getting crazy with something... how do I find the address of my wallet? I am reading walletpassphrase and similar but they don't work or I don't understand exactly what I should do
1198 2013-03-15 11:30:24 <sipa> a wallet contains a collection of addresses, and you typically use each address only once
1199 2013-03-15 11:31:22 <sipa> getnewaddress will give you a new one
1200 2013-03-15 11:31:44 <homburg> so will give me one of the 100 pooled?
1201 2013-03-15 11:32:18 <sipa> it will take the oldest one from the pool, give it to you, mark it as used, remove it from the pool, and create a new one that's added to the pool
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1204 2013-03-15 11:34:23 <homburg> thanks
1205 2013-03-15 11:34:34 <homburg> let me try
1206 2013-03-15 11:36:32 <sipa> and walletpassphrase is for unlocking an encrypted wallet
1207 2013-03-15 11:36:39 <sipa> not directly related to addresses
1208 2013-03-15 11:37:12 <homburg> ah I see, I thought I had to unlock the wallet to get these addresses
1209 2013-03-15 11:37:40 <homburg> Faucet Closed is there another way to send a test bitcoin?
1210 2013-03-15 11:40:08 gyver has joined
1211 2013-03-15 11:40:15 <TD> http://testnet.mojocoin.com/
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1213 2013-03-15 11:40:43 <homburg> found http://testnet.mojocoin.com/
1214 2013-03-15 11:40:52 <homburg> ah ok, saw the message now ;-) thanks TD
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1225 2013-03-15 11:49:37 <homburg> if I wanted to create an application that send and receives bitcoins can I have the wallet hosted somewhere else? or a wallet has to be embedded in the app?
1226 2013-03-15 11:50:46 <ligar> homburg: use private key
1227 2013-03-15 11:51:13 <ligar> the same private key can be used in seval wallets
1228 2013-03-15 11:51:26 <sipa> ligar: that's a very bad idea
1229 2013-03-15 11:51:33 <ligar> sipa: yrue
1230 2013-03-15 11:51:38 <ligar> ture*
1231 2013-03-15 11:51:59 <sipa> most software doesn't handle "remote spends" well, and it may lead to (apparent) double spends, and wallets becoming stuck
1232 2013-03-15 11:53:39 <homburg> uhm... I am looking at the bitcoinj library (java) and I was wondering if an android application based on this library will have to create its local wallet to handle in-out transactions
1233 2013-03-15 11:53:55 <ligar> <- likes manualy calculated keys done on paper :P
1234 2013-03-15 11:55:40 pete80 has joined
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1236 2013-03-15 11:56:22 <ligar> best not keep in one place or accesible in just one vector
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1245 2013-03-15 12:13:10 <homburg> sent a test coin, it is taking forever...
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1263 2013-03-15 12:32:06 <cyphurnz> Anyone here got a pebble smart watch
1264 2013-03-15 12:33:20 <Scrat> inb4 running bitcoind on a pebble watch
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1266 2013-03-15 12:34:17 <KuDeTa> lol scrat
1267 2013-03-15 12:34:41 <cyphurnz> haha :)
1268 2013-03-15 12:35:19 <cyphurnz> just looking at creating a btc price monitoring and warning app for it if anyones interested
1269 2013-03-15 12:36:13 <Scrat> cyphurnz: that would require a smartphone nearby, correct?
1270 2013-03-15 12:36:22 <cyphurnz> yes
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1272 2013-03-15 12:36:43 <cyphurnz> well given that most people using it are using it to get the feeds from the smart phone etc already
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1274 2013-03-15 12:39:03 <RoboTeddy> hey, you know how some pool operators lost out when they paid people for blocks mined on the 0.8 branch?
1275 2013-03-15 12:39:55 <RoboTeddy> what if pool operators paid out fees using bitcoins in their own discovered blocks?
1276 2013-03-15 12:40:26 <RoboTeddy> that way, if those blocks were later invalidated by a longer chain, the paid fees would also be invalidated, and the pool operator wouldn't lose out (the miners would, and appropriately so)
1277 2013-03-15 12:41:03 <Eliel_> RoboTeddy: There are a few pools that do that.
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1279 2013-03-15 12:41:22 <RoboTeddy> Eliel_: OK, I guess they're way ahead of me then
1280 2013-03-15 12:41:46 <Eliel_> RoboTeddy: I guess Eligius is the oldest of those.
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1462 2013-03-15 15:05:20 <dhill> is there a max number of transactions per block?  or is it limited by the max message size?
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1470 2013-03-15 15:07:21 Sanky has joined
1471 2013-03-15 15:07:42 <Sanky> Hello, I've got some possibly obvious questions
1472 2013-03-15 15:08:02 <Sanky> Is it true that you can send arbitrary data with a payment?
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1475 2013-03-15 15:10:10 <Luke-Jr> Sanky: not without abusing the network
1476 2013-03-15 15:11:00 <Scrat> Troll-Jr
1477 2013-03-15 15:11:16 <Sanky> so that's a yes
1478 2013-03-15 15:11:38 <Luke-Jr> Sanky: it's a no
1479 2013-03-15 15:12:29 <Luke-Jr> there IS a payment protocol Gavin et al are working on to make something like this possible
1480 2013-03-15 15:12:49 <Sanky> ahh, I see
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1482 2013-03-15 15:14:23 <Sanky> another question: is it possible to send an empty payment?  or is there some minimum amount of coins to have transferred (one satoshi)?
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1485 2013-03-15 15:15:35 <sipa> Sanky: a transaction output of 0 BTC is valid, but non-standard
1486 2013-03-15 15:16:21 <Sanky> but it would get processed and added to the network?
1487 2013-03-15 15:16:49 antix_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1488 2013-03-15 15:16:54 <Luke-Jr> Sanky: no
1489 2013-03-15 15:16:58 <cyphase> Luke-Jr, is there some kind of link with into about this payment protocol?
1490 2013-03-15 15:17:10 <warren> Sanky: Try things on testnet.  You're dared to break things there.
1491 2013-03-15 15:17:39 <Sanky> I haven't really worked with bitcoin at all yet :)
1492 2013-03-15 15:18:26 <cyphase> Testnet: A barren wasteland of 0 BTC transactions and copyright violations
1493 2013-03-15 15:18:32 <sipa> Sanky: it will be accepted by the network if you get a miner to confirm such a transaction for you
1494 2013-03-15 15:18:57 <Luke-Jr> 0-val tx *would* get confirmed on testnet
1495 2013-03-15 15:19:11 <Sanky> but miners would generally ignore it unless I include a transaction fee?
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1497 2013-03-15 15:19:43 <warren> Sanky: what is your goal with this?
1498 2013-03-15 15:20:12 <sipa> miners will generally ignore it whatsoever
1499 2013-03-15 15:20:14 <Sanky> literally nothing.  interest.
1500 2013-03-15 15:20:34 <asdf__> Hi all, What's the major problems bitcoin is facing in the near feature that can be a problem with current implementations? (number of transactions?..) From what I understand due to the fork chain problem it ll take a while to update the software
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1502 2013-03-15 15:20:50 <gavinandresen> Sanky: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/4120476
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1505 2013-03-15 15:21:39 <Sanky> alright, thanks for the info!
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1507 2013-03-15 15:22:43 <cyphase> thanks gavinandresen
1508 2013-03-15 15:23:02 <cyphase> (i think that was meant for me)
1509 2013-03-15 15:23:21 <gavinandresen> cyphase: right you are
1510 2013-03-15 15:23:26 <Sanky> i appreciate the link too :)
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1513 2013-03-15 15:24:59 <asdf__> Gavin, is the number of transactions a thread in the near future with bitcoin 0.7? Any other more immediate threads?
1514 2013-03-15 15:25:25 <gavinandresen> I don't understand the question
1515 2013-03-15 15:25:40 <gavinandresen> what do you mean by "thread" ?
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1517 2013-03-15 15:26:23 <sipa> i suppose he means threat
1518 2013-03-15 15:26:33 <gavinandresen> oh, that makes a lot more sense...
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1520 2013-03-15 15:27:26 <asdf__> sorry meant threat
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1522 2013-03-15 15:28:10 <asdf__> :)
1523 2013-03-15 15:29:30 <gavinandresen> no, number of transactions isn't a threat, but it will make a lot of people upset because they'll find they have to pay higher transaction fees to get their transactions confirmed
1524 2013-03-15 15:30:08 <gavinandresen> And it will cause some pain until client developers and services catch up and do a better job of suggesting "the right" fees
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1527 2013-03-15 15:31:27 <asdf__> hmm, from what I read in the wiki page this will not be a problem when you implement new features.. so do you guys plan a new client with a hard fork in 2 years as someone mention in the bitcointalk forum?
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1530 2013-03-15 15:33:34 <asdf__> not sure why so much time is needed..
1531 2013-03-15 15:33:39 <sipa> "we" can't do a hard fork - it requires consensus among the community and everyone upgrading their software
1532 2013-03-15 15:34:13 antix_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1533 2013-03-15 15:34:14 <asdf__> Ok I understand that ..
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1535 2013-03-15 15:34:53 <sipa> the problem with hard forks is that it doesn't suffice to have 50% miner support
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1538 2013-03-15 15:35:19 <asdf__> So whats the solution then?
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1540 2013-03-15 15:35:42 <asdf__> anything you guys decided?
1541 2013-03-15 15:36:21 <sipa> i think we need a hard fork to at least deal with the problem that caused monday's incident
1542 2013-03-15 15:36:52 <sipa> and as that's about a bug fix, it is hopefully very non-controversial
1543 2013-03-15 15:37:41 <asdf__> Ok.. I think better sooner than later though.. 2 years is too long... Now bitcoin is not really followed have more chances to evolve fast
1544 2013-03-15 15:38:03 <asdf__> Yes I hope too but you never know..
1545 2013-03-15 15:38:44 <asdf__> So the solution is force every miner to upgrade at once?
1546 2013-03-15 15:38:51 <sipa> not every miner
1547 2013-03-15 15:38:53 <sipa> _everyone_
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1549 2013-03-15 15:39:39 <sipa> not at once though; there'll be a coordinated time at which the software starts using the new rules
1550 2013-03-15 15:40:19 <asdf__> hmm thats a good idea if miners upgrade..
1551 2013-03-15 15:40:54 <asdf__> So even if that date is in 2 years it will not matter.. I suppose the time should be network specific and not computer tied
1552 2013-03-15 15:41:06 <asdf__> i.e. block number
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1554 2013-03-15 15:43:24 <asdf__> ok thanks for answering my questions
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1556 2013-03-15 15:45:02 <sipa> yes, of course block-based
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1559 2013-03-15 15:47:58 <asdf__> ok sipa thanks for your time
1560 2013-03-15 15:48:07 <asdf__> are you a developer or moderator?
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1562 2013-03-15 15:49:44 <sipa> developer
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1567 2013-03-15 15:52:14 <asdf__> ok thanks, have a good day ttl
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1571 2013-03-15 15:56:01 <dhill> sipa: is there a max number of transactions per block?  or is it limited by the max message size?
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1605 2013-03-15 16:33:32 <m0mchil> is there an official postmortem of the fork released already? I am interested in the exact point the 'bad' block was rejected by 7.xs
1606 2013-03-15 16:34:05 <sipa> define 'point' ?
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1609 2013-03-15 16:34:36 <egecko> beware the IDEs of march.
1610 2013-03-15 16:34:40 <m0mchil> line of code
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1613 2013-03-15 16:35:14 <sipa> m0mchil: just the write to the database failed
1614 2013-03-15 16:35:16 <helo> m0mchil: there is not yet, but there will be an official postmortem
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1616 2013-03-15 16:35:19 <sipa> as it ran out of locks
1617 2013-03-15 16:35:44 <sipa> and indeed, there will be one
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1627 2013-03-15 16:39:10 <m0mchil> also... if I understand it correctly, this is a resource exhaustion issue. Should it not be treated as a non-recoverable error instead of rejecting the block?
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1632 2013-03-15 16:40:46 <sipa> m0mchil: indeed, this should trigger an abort of the software
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1637 2013-03-15 16:41:17 <sipa> though the effect would be the same, though instead of an implicit network rule, it'd be a trivial massive DDoS attack vector
1638 2013-03-15 16:41:17 <gavinandresen> shoulda woulda coulda .....
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1640 2013-03-15 16:42:23 <gavinandresen> And "I run it and get an alert that says I need to upgrade" is better behavior than "every time I run it, it crashes"
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1646 2013-03-15 16:44:58 <m0mchil> sipa, gavinandresen: I agree. The scenario in which just large number of users see a message like 'Unrecoverable problem, check (system, new version, etc)' looks better than a fork
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1652 2013-03-15 16:48:45 <topi`_> the locks issue sounds really weird, I mean where does BDB need thousands of locks? most of tx processing wouldn't need to lock anything since it's mostly reading, very little writing
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1656 2013-03-15 16:50:15 <jgarzik> topi`_: one lock per database page
1657 2013-03-15 16:50:19 <egecko> who knows.. maybe there's multi-table joins and cross products being calculated
1658 2013-03-15 16:50:28 <jgarzik> topi`_: if you need to lock multiple pages in a single transaction, there ya go
1659 2013-03-15 16:50:38 <jgarzik> topi`_: sometimes a single transaction can touch thousands of records
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1662 2013-03-15 16:51:32 <topi`_> uh oh, how many database pages are there?
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1665 2013-03-15 16:51:57 <egecko> how much data is in the table?
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1667 2013-03-15 16:52:07 <topi`_> I don't know BDB internals
1668 2013-03-15 16:52:26 <topi`_> MySQL is painful enough
1669 2013-03-15 16:52:41 <sipa> topi`_: 1 page is 4 KiB, i assume
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1767 2013-03-15 17:50:48 <Diablo-D3>  http://gigaom.com/2013/03/15/finnish-development-firm-offers-to-pay-salaries-partly-in-bitcoins/
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1868 2013-03-15 19:05:30 <midnightmagic> lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UKC7iaBKvs
1869 2013-03-15 19:05:31 <LobsterMan> YouTube Title: BitCoin Ponzi Scheme Length: 15:00
1870 2013-03-15 19:06:10 maximi89 has joined
1871 2013-03-15 19:06:25 <thepok> 660 kb block, isnt that to big?
1872 2013-03-15 19:07:18 MADacit is now known as manacit
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1874 2013-03-15 19:07:27 <jgarzik> hrm: Speed up syncing on newer blocks with maxconnections (v0.8) - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=153377.0
1875 2013-03-15 19:07:36 <jgarzik> I definitely continue to see pauses in block download, in 0.8
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1883 2013-03-15 19:14:14 <mojod> Luke-Jr: what's going on
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1893 2013-03-15 19:22:14 <Diablo-D3> �)�)http://bitcointipper.com/index.html
1894 2013-03-15 19:22:34 <Jezzz> hmm.. only 5 blocks in the last 2 hours
1895 2013-03-15 19:22:46 <Graet> is this 617.98kb block from HHTT going to be an issue?
1896 2013-03-15 19:23:03 <Jezzz> 226035
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1900 2013-03-15 19:23:56 luke-jr has quit (otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1902 2013-03-15 19:25:05 <Jezzz> guess not
1903 2013-03-15 19:25:15 <Jezzz> 50btc just hit 226036
1904 2013-03-15 19:25:33 luke-jr_ has joined
1905 2013-03-15 19:25:47 <Jezzz> but https://coinbase.com/network/blocks seems to have issues
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1910 2013-03-15 19:27:14 <Jezzz> *shrug*
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1913 2013-03-15 19:28:25 <shamoon> i'm trying to build from scratch on unix (ubuntu): db.h:14:20: fatal error: db_cxx.h: No such file or directory
1914 2013-03-15 19:28:27 <shamoon> error that i get
1915 2013-03-15 19:28:38 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1916 2013-03-15 19:28:38 <shamoon> make -f makefile.unix
1917 2013-03-15 19:28:40 <shamoon> after doing that
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1920 2013-03-15 19:31:08 <pjorrit_> so stop doing thath
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1926 2013-03-15 19:36:41 <shamoon> good call
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1959 2013-03-15 20:00:06 <bVector> how do I query the version of a running bitcoind? searched for like 20 minutes now lol
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1965 2013-03-15 20:03:48 <luke-jr_> bVector: getinfo
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1968 2013-03-15 20:04:43 <bVector> version 32400 corresponds to?
1969 2013-03-15 20:05:12 coolsa has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1970 2013-03-15 20:05:22 <bVector> 0.3.24
1971 2013-03-15 20:05:32 Bohren has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1972 2013-03-15 20:05:36 <sipa> correct
1973 2013-03-15 20:05:50 <sipa> ... are you running 0.3.24?
1974 2013-03-15 20:05:53 <bVector> ty :) I knew I was just having a seizure of some sort
1975 2013-03-15 20:05:56 viperhr has joined
1976 2013-03-15 20:06:20 <bVector> checking to see what version is in various distro repos
1977 2013-03-15 20:06:46 <luke-jr_> usually the package manger can tell
1978 2013-03-15 20:07:02 <bVector> yeah, its just listed as bitcoind, no version heh
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1981 2013-03-15 20:07:33 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
1982 2013-03-15 20:08:04 <sipa> dpkg -p bitcoind
1983 2013-03-15 20:08:17 ali_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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1985 2013-03-15 20:11:16 <bVector> ok I'm wondering, the txid is a hash of the transaction, correct? is it possible to get a different txid for the same input parameters?
1986 2013-03-15 20:11:41 <gmaxwell> trivally.
1987 2013-03-15 20:12:00 HANTI is now known as hanti
1988 2013-03-15 20:12:01 <sipa> depends what you call input parameters
1989 2013-03-15 20:12:18 <sipa> if that is the serialized transaction, then obviously
1990 2013-03-15 20:12:18 <bVector> same txout, same destination address
1991 2013-03-15 20:12:19 <sipa> no
1992 2013-03-15 20:12:43 <sipa> but there are different tweaks you can do to a transaction which do not invalidate it, but do modify its txid
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1995 2013-03-15 20:14:03 <bVector> are there any examples of creating raw transactions anywhere? I'd like to run some tests on what can change the txid
1996 2013-03-15 20:14:13 KornKage has joined
1997 2013-03-15 20:14:27 <gmaxwell> bVector: To start with the ECDSA signatures are not determinstic.
1998 2013-03-15 20:14:28 <bVector> I see the rpc command and syntax, just wanted to save myself some trial and error :P
1999 2013-03-15 20:14:32 <Happzz> why does it take bitcoin-qt so long to launch? i don't want it to rescan everythin every time it's started!
2000 2013-03-15 20:14:39 <shamoon> i'm trying to get started with bitcoin dev
2001 2013-03-15 20:14:45 owowo has joined
2002 2013-03-15 20:14:45 <shamoon> do you build after every change?
2003 2013-03-15 20:14:52 <shamoon> and i assume use testnet for transactions
2004 2013-03-15 20:14:52 <gmaxwell> bVector: so that you should _never_ get the same txnid twice if you create the same transaction.
2005 2013-03-15 20:15:20 <gmaxwell> Happzz: it doesn't rescan everything. ... how long is it taking to start for you?
2006 2013-03-15 20:15:22 MC1984_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2007 2013-03-15 20:15:32 <Happzz> gmaxwell a couple of minutes at best. and i've top hardware.
2008 2013-03-15 20:15:33 MC1984_ has joined
2009 2013-03-15 20:15:38 <gmaxwell> Unless your wallet it screwy or your system is borked it should be taking a couple seconds.
2010 2013-03-15 20:15:48 <gmaxwell> Happzz: ^
2011 2013-03-15 20:15:53 blaap has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2012 2013-03-15 20:16:01 <Happzz> what can i check or do?
2013 2013-03-15 20:16:10 <Happzz> i7, 4gb ram, ssd, etc'.
2014 2013-03-15 20:16:11 <gmaxwell> Happzz: filesystem? size of wallet.dat?  Are you using disk encryption?
2015 2013-03-15 20:16:15 <gmaxwell> Operating system?
2016 2013-03-15 20:16:19 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin version?
2017 2013-03-15 20:16:21 <Happzz> win7 64bit
2018 2013-03-15 20:16:24 unclemantis has joined
2019 2013-03-15 20:16:29 <Happzz> wallet is 880kb
2020 2013-03-15 20:16:37 <Happzz> no disk encryption
2021 2013-03-15 20:16:39 sgstair has joined
2022 2013-03-15 20:16:51 <unclemantis> is there an api that I can hit to retrive the last transaction of the chain? I need it for testing
2023 2013-03-15 20:16:52 <Happzz> and ntfs
2024 2013-03-15 20:17:06 toffoo has quit ()
2025 2013-03-15 20:17:07 <sipa> unclemantis: getblockhash -> getblock -> getrawtransaction
2026 2013-03-15 20:18:21 amantonop has quit (Quit: amantonop)
2027 2013-03-15 20:18:40 <Happzz> gmaxwell any ideas?
2028 2013-03-15 20:18:49 <sipa> Happzz: which bitcoin version?
2029 2013-03-15 20:19:06 <Happzz> the client? 0.7.2-beta
2030 2013-03-15 20:19:12 <sipa> upgrade to 0.8
2031 2013-03-15 20:19:23 <sipa> (it should start up significantly faster)
2032 2013-03-15 20:19:25 <unclemantis> trying to see what I need to use at http://blockexplorer.com/q
2033 2013-03-15 20:20:15 maximi89 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2034 2013-03-15 20:20:25 b00tkitz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2035 2013-03-15 20:21:15 LainZ has joined
2036 2013-03-15 20:21:35 <Happzz> sipa "reindexing blocks on disk" makes sense when i upgrade to 0.8?
2037 2013-03-15 20:21:36 maximi89 has joined
2038 2013-03-15 20:21:54 <sipa> Happzz: very much so; it's rebuilding the database
2039 2013-03-15 20:22:00 <sipa> 0.8 uses a new database layout
2040 2013-03-15 20:22:07 <Happzz> right. okay i'll let it finish and then tell you how it works out.
2041 2013-03-15 20:22:07 <sipa> it only needs to run once
2042 2013-03-15 20:22:09 <unclemantis> This doesn't seem to work http://blockexplorer.com/q/getblock/00000000000000204D47117BC513F3F76306EE8A2CDBD1AE1725E82CC9E448E8
2043 2013-03-15 20:22:20 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2044 2013-03-15 20:22:53 amantonop has joined
2045 2013-03-15 20:23:15 <MC1984_> is it likely that unning bitcoind instead of qt would save a significant amount of ram
2046 2013-03-15 20:23:17 b00tkitz has joined
2047 2013-03-15 20:23:48 johnsoft1 is now known as johnsoft
2048 2013-03-15 20:26:54 maximi89 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2049 2013-03-15 20:27:45 <TD> MC1984_: doubt it
2050 2013-03-15 20:27:46 thoughtcourier has joined
2051 2013-03-15 20:28:01 <TD> MC1984_: the memory usage almost all goes on block headers and network buffers
2052 2013-03-15 20:28:45 <MC1984_> ok
2053 2013-03-15 20:28:50 maximi89 has joined
2054 2013-03-15 20:28:56 <TD> MC1984_: your machine is struggling?
2055 2013-03-15 20:29:16 <MC1984_> ive got 1gb rams
2056 2013-03-15 20:29:32 <TD> restarting it may help
2057 2013-03-15 20:29:33 <MC1984_> bitcoin takes 20-40% of that
2058 2013-03-15 20:29:37 <TD> hm, yeah.
2059 2013-03-15 20:29:52 <TD> that sounds about right unfortunately. i'm just trying out a quick fix on my server to see if i can make memory usage better
2060 2013-03-15 20:29:59 dparrish has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2061 2013-03-15 20:30:16 <MC1984_> this machine is 6 years old
2062 2013-03-15 20:30:19 <TD> but ultimately, bitcoins memory usage is always going to be high because it stores all block headers in a hash_map. if you want something lighter just use MultiBit or don't run bitcoin all the time
2063 2013-03-15 20:30:20 <MC1984_> i dont xpect miracles
2064 2013-03-15 20:30:41 <MC1984_> im running bitcoin on principle
2065 2013-03-15 20:30:41 dparrish has joined
2066 2013-03-15 20:30:50 <MC1984_> i like multibit though
2067 2013-03-15 20:31:15 <TD> principle?
2068 2013-03-15 20:31:20 <TD> as in, to help the network?
2069 2013-03-15 20:31:35 <MC1984_> yeah belive it or not
2070 2013-03-15 20:32:04 <MC1984_> i saw it served over a gb of blockchain to someone earlier today
2071 2013-03-15 20:32:12 <MC1984_> feels good man
2072 2013-03-15 20:32:17 <TD> that's cool
2073 2013-03-15 20:32:28 Boydy has joined
2074 2013-03-15 20:32:28 Boydy has quit (Changing host)
2075 2013-03-15 20:32:28 Boydy has joined
2076 2013-03-15 20:32:51 <TD> i wonder if it's worth writing a little app that knows how to serve the block chain but isn't a full peer
2077 2013-03-15 20:32:53 <sipa> TD: actually, it stores them in a treemap :)
2078 2013-03-15 20:33:06 <sipa> (stl::map is a red-black tree)
2079 2013-03-15 20:33:14 joehoyle- has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2080 2013-03-15 20:33:17 maximi89 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2081 2013-03-15 20:33:30 <MC1984_> you can only server the chain if youve verified it right
2082 2013-03-15 20:33:34 <TD> ah right
2083 2013-03-15 20:33:42 <MC1984_> otherwise just torrent that shit
2084 2013-03-15 20:33:59 <TD> MC1984_: if you have an SPV client that just watches around for what the best chain is, it can serve it off disk without being fully verifying
2085 2013-03-15 20:34:05 <TD> torrent is great for the initial setup
2086 2013-03-15 20:34:17 <TD> for just serving the chain to nodes that went away for a while and came back, it's not so great
2087 2013-03-15 20:34:26 <jgarzik> TD: you can always do incremental torrents
2088 2013-03-15 20:34:40 <TD> you can? ok, my knowledge of torrent protocol is out of date
2089 2013-03-15 20:34:48 Boydy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2090 2013-03-15 20:34:49 <MC1984_> ive never heard of such a thing
2091 2013-03-15 20:34:58 <MC1984_> you cant change a torrent
2092 2013-03-15 20:35:01 HiWEB has quit (Quit: Gotta Jibboo)
2093 2013-03-15 20:35:04 dust-otc has joined
2094 2013-03-15 20:35:31 <TD> block chain data doesn't change, it just grows
2095 2013-03-15 20:36:00 <jgarzik> TD, MC1984_: by that I meant create a new torrent, with the incremental data
2096 2013-03-15 20:36:01 <TD> sipa: yes, well, that's even worse :)
2097 2013-03-15 20:36:10 <TD> jgarzik: oh, right
2098 2013-03-15 20:36:12 <MC1984_> i suppose you could make a new torrent and point it at the old files, and it will hashcheck the old data just fine
2099 2013-03-15 20:36:25 <pjorrit_> i think it' will mangle your files
2100 2013-03-15 20:36:36 <jgarzik> Then you just need: bootstrap.dat.torrent, Feb2013.torrent, Mar2013.torrent, etc.
2101 2013-03-15 20:36:39 <jgarzik> or weekly whatever
2102 2013-03-15 20:36:42 <pjorrit_> at least the files that changed
2103 2013-03-15 20:36:45 maximi89 has joined
2104 2013-03-15 20:36:47 <MC1984_> thats a petty good idea
2105 2013-03-15 20:36:56 <MC1984_> i wonder if it ould be automated
2106 2013-03-15 20:36:57 Boydy has joined
2107 2013-03-15 20:36:58 <jgarzik> works fine, in every torrent client, today
2108 2013-03-15 20:36:59 <MC1984_> i bet it could
2109 2013-03-15 20:37:01 <jgarzik> sure, easy to automate
2110 2013-03-15 20:37:06 <TD> perhaps if the memory usage can be optimized better then we can have some kind of app that combines assurance contracts with micro-VMs on hosting services that accept bitcoin
2111 2013-03-15 20:37:21 <pjorrit_> if only you had hundreds of peers to serve up that data
2112 2013-03-15 20:37:28 <TD> and then people who want to help the network but can't keep up with their old home computers can just chip in to pay for a proper fully verifying node on a cheap vm
2113 2013-03-15 20:37:29 <pjorrit_> (why cant bitcoin take care of this itself?)
2114 2013-03-15 20:37:33 <jgarzik> bitcoin-$year-$week-of-year.torrent
2115 2013-03-15 20:37:37 <jgarzik> etc.
2116 2013-03-15 20:37:39 <MC1984_> sooo
2117 2013-03-15 20:37:40 Boydy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2118 2013-03-15 20:37:53 <MC1984_> we sticking libtorrent into bitcoin now or what?
2119 2013-03-15 20:38:03 <pjorrit_> that shouldn't be necessary
2120 2013-03-15 20:38:10 <jgarzik> pjorrit_: Already have plenty of people seeding https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0
2121 2013-03-15 20:38:24 <pjorrit_> still it seems so counterintuitive
2122 2013-03-15 20:38:28 <jgarzik> aka magnet:?xt=urn:btih:6fe493ba606847eac163baf35aae9db319735482&dn=bootstrap.dat&tr=udp://tracker.openbittorrent.com:80&tr=udp://tracker.publicbt.com:80&tr=udp://tracker.ccc.de:80&tr=udp://tracker.istole.it:80
2123 2013-03-15 20:38:42 <TD> i doubt it. i mean, the block chain download protocol is not excellent, but it's not awful either
2124 2013-03-15 20:38:44 <MC1984_> you only need the infohash there
2125 2013-03-15 20:38:48 <jgarzik> the checkpoints tend to be updated every 3-6 months
2126 2013-03-15 20:38:53 <jgarzik> and the torrent likewise
2127 2013-03-15 20:39:01 <jgarzik> *bootstrap.dat torrent
2128 2013-03-15 20:39:02 <TD> the bottleneck isn't really the protocol for any kind of client
2129 2013-03-15 20:39:20 <MC1984_> it sucks the entie chain off one peer if you let it afaik
2130 2013-03-15 20:39:21 <jgarzik> bitcoin P2P protocol would be fine... with proper peer selection
2131 2013-03-15 20:39:22 <MC1984_> thats bad
2132 2013-03-15 20:39:25 <jgarzik> yep
2133 2013-03-15 20:39:40 <MC1984_> it should take a round robin off its connected peers
2134 2013-03-15 20:39:44 <MC1984_> spread the load
2135 2013-03-15 20:39:46 Boydy has joined
2136 2013-03-15 20:39:48 <MC1984_> more secure i think
2137 2013-03-15 20:39:51 <flyingkiwiguy> publish md5sums on bitcoin.org for validation?
2138 2013-03-15 20:39:55 gritcoin has joined
2139 2013-03-15 20:39:57 <jgarzik> well, that has its own problems :)
2140 2013-03-15 20:40:07 <TD> it's not any more secure
2141 2013-03-15 20:40:11 <TD> given that the remote peers aren't trusted anyway
2142 2013-03-15 20:40:22 <MC1984_> yeah
2143 2013-03-15 20:40:23 <jgarzik> flyingkiwiguy: You may validate block chain data immediately after download, simply by importing it
2144 2013-03-15 20:40:26 <skinnkavaj> 5/21/10 pizza purchased for 10,000 BTC
2145 2013-03-15 20:40:29 <TD> but sure, load balancing across nodes would be good
2146 2013-03-15 20:40:31 <jgarzik> flyingkiwiguy: bitcoin is based on hash verification
2147 2013-03-15 20:40:38 <TD> not sure that it's really an improvement though
2148 2013-03-15 20:40:49 <TD> i mean, from a network perspective, the same amount of data has to get downloaded
2149 2013-03-15 20:41:04 <MC1984_> depends on if your long term biew of bitcoin includes nodes still serving the chain to ech other
2150 2013-03-15 20:41:05 <TD> it depends what problem you're trying to solve
2151 2013-03-15 20:41:10 <Scrat> md5 is too secure, just use crc32
2152 2013-03-15 20:41:23 dontmindme has joined
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2154 2013-03-15 20:41:39 gyver has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2155 2013-03-15 20:41:46 MC1984_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2156 2013-03-15 20:41:55 BurtyBB has joined
2157 2013-03-15 20:42:12 MC1984_ has joined
2158 2013-03-15 20:42:13 rapter has joined
2159 2013-03-15 20:42:22 <MC1984_> TD i was happy to serve a few GB to some random dude but someone else might be asspained
2160 2013-03-15 20:42:33 <TD> http://blockchain.info/tx/e8c3c6d78b52c12010b19c24252835396fb7ca300ed28d350ec631a54be831f1
2161 2013-03-15 20:42:37 <TD> SockThing?
2162 2013-03-15 20:42:42 <MC1984_> my widi drops very tim someone uses the god damn microwave
2163 2013-03-15 20:42:47 <TD> paying out to 1HorriBLeWypTH3YqEAn8J5LweNJHrZ7bo ?
2164 2013-03-15 20:42:51 <TD> someone has a sense of humor
2165 2013-03-15 20:43:02 <Jezzz> that's the pool of the dice guy
2166 2013-03-15 20:43:11 <Jezzz> hhtt
2167 2013-03-15 20:43:12 <MC1984_> i hope its not leaking significant em
2168 2013-03-15 20:43:29 <TD> hhtt?
2169 2013-03-15 20:43:38 <Jezzz> pps mining pool
2170 2013-03-15 20:43:42 <TD> https://github.com/fireduck64/SockThing
2171 2013-03-15 20:43:43 <TD> ah
2172 2013-03-15 20:44:07 <Jezzz> http://hhtt.1209k.com/
2173 2013-03-15 20:44:16 mrkent has joined
2174 2013-03-15 20:44:16 mrkent has quit (Changing host)
2175 2013-03-15 20:44:16 mrkent has joined
2176 2013-03-15 20:45:15 <TD> i'll email him and ask him to not produce such large blocks
2177 2013-03-15 20:46:11 <TD> huh it uses bitcoinj as well
2178 2013-03-15 20:46:15 <TD> just for utility stuff
2179 2013-03-15 20:46:19 <MC1984_> is someone still making death blocks?
2180 2013-03-15 20:46:27 andzib has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2181 2013-03-15 20:47:17 TAiS46 has quit (Quit: TAiS46)
2182 2013-03-15 20:47:21 <TD> yeah
2183 2013-03-15 20:47:35 <kinlo> which pool?
2184 2013-03-15 20:47:38 <TD> hhtt
2185 2013-03-15 20:48:05 <kinlo> hmmmz
2186 2013-03-15 20:48:07 <Jezzz> 226035
2187 2013-03-15 20:48:14 <kinlo> did someone notify the poolowner?
2188 2013-03-15 20:48:14 <Jezzz> was 600k+
2189 2013-03-15 20:48:33 <TD> i just did now
2190 2013-03-15 20:49:03 gyver has joined
2191 2013-03-15 20:49:19 <MC1984_> wiat shit is that gonna break eerything again
2192 2013-03-15 20:49:21 dc8181 has joined
2193 2013-03-15 20:49:58 amantonop has quit (Quit: amantonop)
2194 2013-03-15 20:50:11 <TD> no
2195 2013-03-15 20:50:13 <MC1984_> no everyone else is mining on 7 now, dathblocks will get orphaned right
2196 2013-03-15 20:50:17 <TD> this one seems to have been digestable
2197 2013-03-15 20:50:18 <TD> yeah
2198 2013-03-15 20:50:25 <TD> such blocks might cause a temporary split but it'll be resolved quickly
2199 2013-03-15 20:51:03 vigilyn2 has joined
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2201 2013-03-15 20:51:50 <flyingkiwiguy> jgarzik: bzip2 compression ratio on blk0001.dat is about 4:3
2202 2013-03-15 20:51:58 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2203 2013-03-15 20:51:59 [\\\] has joined
2204 2013-03-15 20:52:32 <TD> you can't compress the block chain
2205 2013-03-15 20:52:38 <TD> or not very much anyway
2206 2013-03-15 20:52:54 <flyingkiwiguy> about 1GB now
2207 2013-03-15 20:52:56 Bohren_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2208 2013-03-15 20:52:57 <Goonie> I wonder what fork Coinbase is on. I've got a transaction with 10+ confirmations that still says 0 confirmations on their webpage.
2209 2013-03-15 20:53:05 <TD> huh
2210 2013-03-15 20:53:15 <TD> they have a block explorer
2211 2013-03-15 20:53:17 <flyingkiwiguy> but 25% may become significant for d/l
2212 2013-03-15 20:53:29 gyver has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2213 2013-03-15 20:53:33 <MC1984_> nothing to sniff at
2214 2013-03-15 20:53:41 <Goonie> TD: yes, you need to click on the tx and then on advanced
2215 2013-03-15 20:53:57 dontmindme has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2216 2013-03-15 20:54:00 <TD> so what block are they up to?
2217 2013-03-15 20:54:13 gasteve has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2218 2013-03-15 20:54:17 <Goonie> ah sorry no block explorer, its just a tx details viewer
2219 2013-03-15 20:54:25 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
2220 2013-03-15 20:54:32 <TD> oh
2221 2013-03-15 20:54:38 <TD> i thought they had a full block explorer
2222 2013-03-15 20:54:45 <MC1984_> maybe bitcoin could compress blocks more than 100 deep or something, to account for suden reorgs
2223 2013-03-15 20:54:57 FredEE has joined
2224 2013-03-15 20:55:06 <Goonie> ah ok
2225 2013-03-15 20:55:06 <MC1984_> cpu power is cheaper than disk space right
2226 2013-03-15 20:55:19 <flyingkiwiguy> I could run it on a fuse compress vol now under Linux
2227 2013-03-15 20:55:23 <Goonie> they have switched off bitcoin 7 hours ago
2228 2013-03-15 20:55:34 Boydy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2229 2013-03-15 20:55:47 <Goonie> at height 226004
2230 2013-03-15 20:55:48 <TD> "switched off bitcoin"?
2231 2013-03-15 20:56:02 <Goonie> TD: (-:
2232 2013-03-15 20:56:07 <flyingkiwiguy> we'll all be on SSD in a few years, so the speed up won't be significant MC1984_
2233 2013-03-15 20:56:28 <TD> that sounds like a pretty serious outage for them
2234 2013-03-15 20:56:37 <MC1984_> nothing about speedup, more like disk space
2235 2013-03-15 20:56:48 <Goonie> TD: https://coinbase.com/network/blocks
2236 2013-03-15 20:57:06 <TD> https://coinbase.com/network
2237 2013-03-15 20:57:07 <TD> weidr
2238 2013-03-15 20:57:11 <TD> weird
2239 2013-03-15 20:57:12 joe_k has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2240 2013-03-15 20:57:24 <TD> they claim to be connected to 76 peers. i wonder if their node forked indeed
2241 2013-03-15 20:57:28 <TD> i see no split at that height though
2242 2013-03-15 20:58:44 <flyingkiwiguy> MC1984_: from leveldb - "LevelDB: LevelDB was compiled with the tcmalloc library and the Snappy compression library (revision 33)"
2243 2013-03-15 20:58:50 <Goonie> TD: the network status info appears to be old
2244 2013-03-15 20:58:57 <flyingkiwiguy> either it isn't enabled or is very inefficient
2245 2013-03-15 20:58:57 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
2246 2013-03-15 20:59:11 <Goonie> it says 226.004 blocks (last block created 24 minutes ago)
2247 2013-03-15 20:59:31 <TD> yeah it's hosed
2248 2013-03-15 20:59:35 <TD> flyingkiwiguy: what's not efficient?
2249 2013-03-15 20:59:48 <flyingkiwiguy> Snappy compression in leveldb
2250 2013-03-15 20:59:56 gyver has joined
2251 2013-03-15 21:00:00 <TD> oh
2252 2013-03-15 21:00:12 <TD> the leveldbs contain data that is already compressed by ultraprune
2253 2013-03-15 21:00:21 <TD> so it's expected that snappy won't do anything. i thought we had taken it out actually
2254 2013-03-15 21:00:28 <TD> where did you see that string?
2255 2013-03-15 21:00:33 * flyingkiwiguy is not a dev
2256 2013-03-15 21:00:49 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2257 2013-03-15 21:01:16 <sipa> flyingkiwiguy: snappy is disabled in bitcoin
2258 2013-03-15 21:01:17 <flyingkiwiguy> TD: http://leveldb.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/doc/benchmark.html
2259 2013-03-15 21:01:32 * flyingkiwiguy is a perf tester
2260 2013-03-15 21:01:35 <TD> ok
2261 2013-03-15 21:02:31 Bohren has joined
2262 2013-03-15 21:04:27 <Jezzz> 15:05:06 <+Jezzz> but https://coinbase.com/network/blocks seems to have issues
2263 2013-03-15 21:04:36 <Jezzz> that's what got me wondering about that jumbo block size
2264 2013-03-15 21:05:31 <TD> the big block is 226035
2265 2013-03-15 21:05:33 <TD> they stopped earlier than that
2266 2013-03-15 21:06:14 <TD> although actually, the next block has 831 transactions and was 342kb
2267 2013-03-15 21:06:27 <TD> 226005 was also a hhtt block
2268 2013-03-15 21:07:14 <TD> i wonder if coinbase had problems digesting it due to bdb locks again
2269 2013-03-15 21:07:27 <TD> or some other issue
2270 2013-03-15 21:08:19 <Jezzz> no clue
2271 2013-03-15 21:08:26 <Jezzz> HHTT: 005, 031, 035, 045
2272 2013-03-15 21:08:35 <phantomcircuit> TD, coinbase doesn't use bdb
2273 2013-03-15 21:08:39 <TD> ok
2274 2013-03-15 21:08:41 <phantomcircuit> they have their own client
2275 2013-03-15 21:08:42 zooko has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2276 2013-03-15 21:08:43 <MC1984_> the deathblock thing isnt even totally deterministic right
2277 2013-03-15 21:08:43 <phantomcircuit> in ruby
2278 2013-03-15 21:08:45 <TD> ok
2279 2013-03-15 21:08:47 <TD> ....
2280 2013-03-15 21:08:49 * phantomcircuit waits for that to sink in
2281 2013-03-15 21:08:56 <TD> i hope by "client" you mean "something that talks to a real bitcoind"
2282 2013-03-15 21:09:02 <phantomcircuit> no i dont
2283 2013-03-15 21:09:12 <TD> it's a fully validating node?
2284 2013-03-15 21:09:12 <phantomcircuit> i've explained why it's a bad idea a number of times
2285 2013-03-15 21:09:17 <phantomcircuit> yes
2286 2013-03-15 21:09:25 <phantomcircuit> mtgox has the same actually
2287 2013-03-15 21:09:27 <TD> and these people are holding other peoples money?
2288 2013-03-15 21:09:32 <TD> yeah i know mark reimplemented stuff
2289 2013-03-15 21:09:40 <phantomcircuit> although i think mtgox is at least filtering through a bitcoind
2290 2013-03-15 21:09:49 <TD> i think he had to because of wallet issues
2291 2013-03-15 21:10:06 * TD doesn't even want to think about implementing bitcoin in ruby
2292 2013-03-15 21:10:12 <phantomcircuit> it's fairly easy to have multiple bitcoind's running
2293 2013-03-15 21:10:14 <TD> no wonder their node got stuck.
2294 2013-03-15 21:10:31 <phantomcircuit> the way intersango works i could have any number of hot wallets
2295 2013-03-15 21:10:48 <phantomcircuit> i think it would get annoying after about 10
2296 2013-03-15 21:10:56 <phantomcircuit> but it would certainly still work
2297 2013-03-15 21:11:05 <TD> yeah just throwing hardware at it, probably wouldn't work for mtgox
2298 2013-03-15 21:11:14 <phantomcircuit> TD, im sure it would
2299 2013-03-15 21:11:24 <phantomcircuit> they have something like 2 million addresses in wallets
2300 2013-03-15 21:11:42 <phantomcircuit> i know for a fact bitcoind continues to work well upto about 100k
2301 2013-03-15 21:11:55 <TD> it's not the addresses, it's the number of transactions
2302 2013-03-15 21:11:58 <TD> the wallet code scales very poorly
2303 2013-03-15 21:12:16 <flyingkiwiguy> single DBs do not scale linearly when you double the size or # tx
2304 2013-03-15 21:12:16 <phantomcircuit> TD, after about 100k it is the addresses actually
2305 2013-03-15 21:12:30 <phantomcircuit> the issue is it takes ages to load them all when you start
2306 2013-03-15 21:12:42 Xeno-Genesis has joined
2307 2013-03-15 21:13:13 <TD> Goonie: if you can get logs of missed transactions that'd help a lot. i see a ton of complaints about this and can't reproduce it
2308 2013-03-15 21:13:27 <TD> Goonie: there is obviously a bug somewhere. but without logs it's just a guessing game
2309 2013-03-15 21:14:08 <Goonie> TD: yes, I wanted to reproduce the issue I had with coinbase
2310 2013-03-15 21:14:15 <TD> ah. but they're hosed.
2311 2013-03-15 21:14:17 <TD> so you can't
2312 2013-03-15 21:14:28 <Goonie> TD: also, I will implement bug reporting without crash
2313 2013-03-15 21:14:38 <TD> it was reliably an issue for tx from them?
2314 2013-03-15 21:14:57 CaptainBlaze has joined
2315 2013-03-15 21:15:03 <Goonie> TD: I saw it once, and on the second try it was weird but in the end it worked
2316 2013-03-15 21:15:13 <TD> hmm
2317 2013-03-15 21:15:31 <Goonie> TD: with weird I mean the pending tx did not arrive although blockexplorer had it
2318 2013-03-15 21:15:42 <Goonie> TD: sorry blockchain.info had it
2319 2013-03-15 21:15:53 <TD> hmph.
2320 2013-03-15 21:15:55 RBecker is now known as rbecker
2321 2013-03-15 21:16:07 CodesInChaos has joined
2322 2013-03-15 21:16:10 <TD> was there _anything_ unusual about this at all? did you create a new key and then receive the payment on that, for instance?
2323 2013-03-15 21:16:14 swappermall has joined
2324 2013-03-15 21:16:38 <Goonie> TD: no, but the unusual part is that coinbase is paying the fee
2325 2013-03-15 21:16:39 <TD> i mean, it sounds like it could be all kinds of things there …. bloom filtering or dep download related.
2326 2013-03-15 21:16:44 <Goonie> TD: this means 2 inputs
2327 2013-03-15 21:17:02 <TD> hmm
2328 2013-03-15 21:17:13 <TD> are they building long chains of pending transactions, i wonder?
2329 2013-03-15 21:17:30 <Goonie> TD: and perhaps they are feeding the fees from the same bunch of coins all the time (until its depleted, of course)
2330 2013-03-15 21:17:32 <TD> i forgot, did you have the tx?
2331 2013-03-15 21:17:34 <TD> yeah
2332 2013-03-15 21:17:51 <TD> if somebody builds a giant chain of unconfirmed transactions then the dep resolution code would just get stuck chasing it downwards
2333 2013-03-15 21:18:01 <TD> trying to find the tx where it's in the chain
2334 2013-03-15 21:18:19 <TD> txid
2335 2013-03-15 21:18:25 oleganza has joined
2336 2013-03-15 21:18:37 <Goonie> I believe this is the first tx that never showed up: http://blockchain.info/tx/31222b7287c6b6c784630b8583b3835046dcbb535a411ecf7f71a88ddb24e0e1 06:19:59 PM
2337 2013-03-15 21:18:40 <Goonie> and this one worked, but it took quite some time until I got it: http://blockchain.info/tx/d2dc9669f8a81b88a15f2ee6432dfc20a04b5ae57ab1b9a0cb8d9395e5fa2ae1
2338 2013-03-15 21:18:54 <Goonie> (copied from our chat history)
2339 2013-03-15 21:19:50 <TD> hm, well, so much for that theory
2340 2013-03-15 21:20:16 <TD> the input they add for you is connected to an output much older in both cases
2341 2013-03-15 21:20:18 blkashdla has joined
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2343 2013-03-15 21:22:14 <TD> if anything goes wrong with bloom filtering it will be hard to detect
2344 2013-03-15 21:22:26 <TD> as the tx would just get filtered out :/
2345 2013-03-15 21:23:47 cyphurnz has joined
2346 2013-03-15 21:23:50 <warren> Testnet it to death.  Bloom filtering is supposed to have no false negatives.
2347 2013-03-15 21:23:55 <TD> Goonie: could you send me all the pubkeys you have in the wallet that yous aw that with?
2348 2013-03-15 21:24:14 TAiS46 has joined
2349 2013-03-15 21:24:16 <TD> yes, obviously. i don't know how it could happen. but it's a non-trivial bit of code
2350 2013-03-15 21:24:24 * helo notes that his poolsz is going up, and that block sizes appear to be dancing around the 250kb limit again
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2352 2013-03-15 21:25:42 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2353 2013-03-15 21:26:33 <Goonie> TD: switched to chat
2354 2013-03-15 21:27:02 <TD> oh, it went to my phone
2355 2013-03-15 21:29:54 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2356 2013-03-15 21:30:01 kanoi_ is now known as kanoi
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2359 2013-03-15 21:33:16 <TD> helo: yup
2360 2013-03-15 21:33:22 <TD> helo: that's expected of course
2361 2013-03-15 21:34:02 <bVector> has anyone built bitcoind on redhat/amazonec2?
2362 2013-03-15 21:36:14 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2363 2013-03-15 21:36:33 <helo> a little more pressure to quickly implement dynamic fee suggestion (and tx replacement) :/
2364 2013-03-15 21:36:41 Boydy has joined
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2367 2013-03-15 21:36:49 <warren> bVector: if this like ordinary Red Hat, you need to also rebuild openssl because it is missing ecdsa
2368 2013-03-15 21:37:28 <bVector> my debian distro only has .3, redhat is being a pain
2369 2013-03-15 21:37:39 <bVector> whats the best supported platform for bitcoind
2370 2013-03-15 21:37:54 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
2371 2013-03-15 21:38:00 <doublec> bVector: red hat requires a custom openssl build iirc
2372 2013-03-15 21:38:10 Boydy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2373 2013-03-15 21:38:19 TAiS46 has quit (Quit: TAiS46)
2374 2013-03-15 21:39:33 <doublec> bVector: I use ubuntu but I imagine debian is fine too. So is gentoo.
2375 2013-03-15 21:39:46 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2376 2013-03-15 21:40:11 <bVector> qqqqqqq
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2385 2013-03-15 21:45:06 <helo> if you run from the tarball, i think most distros should work
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2389 2013-03-15 21:47:47 <TD> helo: no, the right fix is larger blocks ..
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2393 2013-03-15 21:52:02 <helo> will the hardfork happen sooner than default fees begin to routinely fail to be sufficient?
2394 2013-03-15 21:53:16 <TD> default fees are already sometimes inefficient
2395 2013-03-15 21:53:26 <TD> i think we can muddle through with some pools filtering SD for a while
2396 2013-03-15 21:55:07 hanti is now known as HANTI
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2398 2013-03-15 21:56:57 <Goonie> coinbase is really on a wrong fork. they have orphaned a block that is valid on blockchain.info
2399 2013-03-15 21:59:44 <Goonie> (000000000000006599e9587c9adac382410fc951b66ffc697d4c8c7db5160a79)
2400 2013-03-15 22:03:30 <grau> Goonie: seems there are more implementations around
2401 2013-03-15 22:03:46 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
2402 2013-03-15 22:04:03 <Goonie> grau: I don't understand. What do you mean by implementation?
2403 2013-03-15 22:04:13 Boydy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2404 2013-03-15 22:04:46 <grau> Goonie: I mean they must use something else than majority to be locked into a side branch
2405 2013-03-15 22:05:07 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2406 2013-03-15 22:05:13 <Goonie> grau: true
2407 2013-03-15 22:05:23 <TD> yeah
2408 2013-03-15 22:05:27 <TD> that's what phantomcircuit said they have dne
2409 2013-03-15 22:05:33 <TD> they have an implementation written in ruby
2410 2013-03-15 22:05:39 <grau> not mine for the record. that is in sync :)
2411 2013-03-15 22:06:15 <TD> i wonder what they didn't like about that block
2412 2013-03-15 22:06:31 CaptainBlaze has joined
2413 2013-03-15 22:06:54 <skinnkavaj> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQPSwA2Itbs&t=41m55s
2414 2013-03-15 22:06:54 <LobsterMan> YouTube Title: Security Now 287: BitCoin CryptoCurrency Length: 1:27:49
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2421 2013-03-15 22:11:31 <flyingkiwiguy> after Monday's incident, is there any alerts mailing list yet to notify merchants and pool ops of blockchain issues?
2422 2013-03-15 22:13:19 <flyingkiwiguy> any bitcoind-based alerting isn't going to work for non-bitcoind users
2423 2013-03-15 22:13:20 <chmod755> flyingkiwiguy, idk, but it would be great if there was a command in bitcoind that shows active alert messages
2424 2013-03-15 22:13:40 <gavinandresen> getinfo shows alerts
2425 2013-03-15 22:13:47 <chmod755> oh, really?
2426 2013-03-15 22:15:26 <chmod755> gavinandresen, how does it show alerts? i didn't use bitcoind when the last alert was active
2427 2013-03-15 22:15:41 <gavinandresen> "errors" will be something other than ""
2428 2013-03-15 22:16:09 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2429 2013-03-15 22:17:01 <Goonie> TD: 147 tx according to blockchain.info
2430 2013-03-15 22:17:21 <TD> 147?
2431 2013-03-15 22:17:37 <TD> huh
2432 2013-03-15 22:17:37 <TD> crap
2433 2013-03-15 22:17:37 <TD> i wonder which one is missing
2434 2013-03-15 22:17:38 <Goonie> TD: 2 on 169 and 145 on 1KG
2435 2013-03-15 22:17:42 <chmod755> gavinandresen, thanks
2436 2013-03-15 22:17:43 <TD> did you just make a new tx in the last few minutes?
2437 2013-03-15 22:18:03 <Goonie> sure, I wanted to fool you (-:
2438 2013-03-15 22:18:16 <Goonie> no, the last one is from 18:30 CET
2439 2013-03-15 22:18:18 gritcoin has quit (Quit: gritcoin)
2440 2013-03-15 22:20:18 <Goonie> TD: ah, I have here still the logfile from the second tx. Shall I mail?
2441 2013-03-15 22:20:24 <TD> please
2442 2013-03-15 22:21:39 <TD> Goonie: also, if you have the wallet, can you run wallet-tool --action=DUMP | egrep "[0-9a-f]+: "    on it please?
2443 2013-03-15 22:21:45 <TD> that'll generate a list of transaction hashes you have in your wallet
2444 2013-03-15 22:21:51 <TD> the i can diff it against mine and see what happened
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2452 2013-03-15 22:31:27 <Goonie> the wallet has since been reset. does it make any sense?
2453 2013-03-15 22:31:46 <Goonie> sent mail
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2465 2013-03-15 22:39:22 <Goonie> mail with txlist sent
2466 2013-03-15 22:39:22 protus has joined
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2469 2013-03-15 22:40:00 <TD> oh, ok
2470 2013-03-15 22:40:07 <TD> so you have the same number of transactions as me then
2471 2013-03-15 22:40:41 randy-waterhouse has joined
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2473 2013-03-15 22:46:21 <Goonie> i've got all 145 (1KG...) tx from blockchain in a csv format, so we can compare
2474 2013-03-15 22:46:32 <TD> me too
2475 2013-03-15 22:46:34 <TD> however
2476 2013-03-15 22:46:41 <TD> i just had a thought
2477 2013-03-15 22:46:51 <TD> you got 147 by adding together what bc said for both addresses, right
2478 2013-03-15 22:47:02 <Goonie> yes
2479 2013-03-15 22:47:13 <Goonie> ah
2480 2013-03-15 22:47:17 <TD> now he sees it
2481 2013-03-15 22:47:21 <TD> http://blockchain.info/tx/2f9679b9629978fc978cce6a869658ec5a79579ef413f225f5c2ac5edbb4e412  has both addresses
2482 2013-03-15 22:47:34 <Goonie> ah ok that explains
2483 2013-03-15 22:47:36 <TD> so i believe no transactions are missing, and indeed, i just diffed the outputs and found no differences
2484 2013-03-15 22:47:44 <Goonie> I sent from one address to the other
2485 2013-03-15 22:47:46 <TD> yep
2486 2013-03-15 22:49:31 <Goonie> could you read anything from the log?
2487 2013-03-15 22:51:52 <TD> txlist.log? why would i check that now, it's already resolved
2488 2013-03-15 22:52:16 swappermall has joined
2489 2013-03-15 22:53:27 <Goonie> ?
2490 2013-03-15 22:53:55 <Goonie> it could contain evidence why one tx was missing and the other one behaved strangely
2491 2013-03-15 22:53:57 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
2492 2013-03-15 22:54:18 <Goonie> sorry the other mail
2493 2013-03-15 22:54:29 FredEE has joined
2494 2013-03-15 22:54:36 <Goonie> coinbase-tx.log
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2505 2013-03-15 23:04:21 <Goonie> nite
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2528 2013-03-15 23:28:34 <unclemantis> What is the quickest way to get the last TX on the chain without bitcoind? Is there  a website?
2529 2013-03-15 23:29:42 <EasyAt> blockchain.info
2530 2013-03-15 23:30:21 <unclemantis> Via mechanical means such as an API
2531 2013-03-15 23:30:56 WKNiGHT has joined
2532 2013-03-15 23:33:16 RoboTeddy has joined
2533 2013-03-15 23:33:43 <EasyAt> blockchain.info has an API I believe
2534 2013-03-15 23:33:58 parancibia has joined
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2536 2013-03-15 23:34:43 darinmorrison has joined
2537 2013-03-15 23:35:49 <flyingkiwiguy> guys, I just set up an email relay for "bitcoind getinfo" error field using Google Groups/mailing lists:
2538 2013-03-15 23:35:52 <flyingkiwiguy> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/bitcoin-unofficial-alerts
2539 2013-03-15 23:36:01 parancibia has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2540 2013-03-15 23:36:51 <flyingkiwiguy> any non-null error field will send an email to the group with the body of the message as the content of the error field
2541 2013-03-15 23:37:01 Anduck has joined
2542 2013-03-15 23:37:22 <unclemantis> Easyat the API does not have access to latest TX. It is more along give it data it.gives you data
2543 2013-03-15 23:37:37 <MC-Droid_> labs block explorer in bitcoin wallet
2544 2013-03-15 23:37:46 <MC-Droid_> wuts that and how do i see it
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2551 2013-03-15 23:42:58 <gavinandresen> flyingkiwiguy: very nice!
2552 2013-03-15 23:43:11 phantomcircuit has joined
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2563 2013-03-15 23:50:19 <etotheipi_> sipa: how many utxos are there?
2564 2013-03-15 23:51:33 WKNiGHT has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2565 2013-03-15 23:51:45 <etotheipi_> sipa:  I just need an order of magnitude
2566 2013-03-15 23:51:47 ThomasV has joined
2567 2013-03-15 23:52:16 <sipa> etotheipi_: ./bitcoind gettxoutsetinfo
2568 2013-03-15 23:52:54 <etotheipi_> gah, I don't have good access to that right now
2569 2013-03-15 23:53:07 <etotheipi_> but thanks ... can you just give me an order of magnitude for now?
2570 2013-03-15 23:53:08 LargoG has joined
2571 2013-03-15 23:53:14 <etotheipi_> I'll query that myself, next time
2572 2013-03-15 23:54:27 <sipa> 3.9M
2573 2013-03-15 23:54:39 <sipa> in 1.7M distinct txids
2574 2013-03-15 23:55:45 luke-jr_ is now known as Luke-Jr
2575 2013-03-15 23:56:11 <etotheipi_> sipa: thanks
2576 2013-03-15 23:56:33 <chmod755> devs? does an alert show up even if my version is not affected?
2577 2013-03-15 23:56:41 WKNiGHT has joined
2578 2013-03-15 23:56:42 <sipa> it shouldn't
2579 2013-03-15 23:56:48 WKNiGHT is now known as Guest71792
2580 2013-03-15 23:57:38 <etotheipi_> sipa: gmaxwell: gavinandresen: how would you feel about a setup where the clients have a "Cleanup" button, and what it does is collects all your sub-0.000001 outputs and sends it to a SD address, which is designated for collecting these things, and it will send 0.05 BTC back to them, or something along those lines?
2581 2013-03-15 23:58:24 <etotheipi_> yes, I know it's a privacy issue, but erik wanted to see how he could help clean up the UTXOs, and is offering to fund some money to pay people to collapse their wallets as such
2582 2013-03-15 23:58:48 Uthark has left ("Leaving")
2583 2013-03-15 23:58:53 <etotheipi_> I'm wondering if there's a better way...
2584 2013-03-15 23:59:20 <gavinandresen> … thinking ….