1 2013-03-16 00:00:41 Guest71792 is now known as WKNiGHT-
2 2013-03-16 00:00:44 <sipa> depending on a centralized service is a no-go imho for the reference client
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4 2013-03-16 00:00:55 WKNiGHT- has joined
5 2013-03-16 00:01:20 <etotheipi_> sipa: it doens'th ave ot be a centralized service
6 2013-03-16 00:01:28 <sipa> and the correct way of dealing with utxo spam is 1) changing the priority calculations so that cleaning up dust is encouraged and 2) optimize the coin selection to use that
7 2013-03-16 00:01:29 Boydy has joined
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9 2013-03-16 00:01:38 <etotheipi_> it just has to be a function that specifically cleans up your dust and sends it to an address of your choice
10 2013-03-16 00:01:52 <etotheipi_> his particular service would pay you for doing that
11 2013-03-16 00:02:23 <sipa> feels too low-level: it breaks the abstraction for a user that his wallet is a balance and not a set of coins
12 2013-03-16 00:02:35 <chmod755> etotheipi_, did you talk to him or did he post that somewhere?
13 2013-03-16 00:02:46 <sipa> and if coin selection is smart enough to clean up dust when possible, it shouldn't be an issue at all
14 2013-03-16 00:02:51 <etotheipi_> well, I've got something in Armory to do that, but it's not aggressive enough to work because it doesn't do it if it would damage the anonymity
15 2013-03-16 00:03:12 <mojod> ;;ident mojod
16 2013-03-16 00:03:13 <gribble> Nick 'mojod', with hostmask 'mojod!~mojod@kti.a13.12.ktis.net', is identified as user mojo, with GPG key id None, key fingerprint None, and bitcoin address 13eDZ2xSbmgV3Gwicmz8pEcHNgTCQfk73a
17 2013-03-16 00:03:20 <etotheipi_> chmod755: he talked to me about it
18 2013-03-16 00:04:46 <gavinandresen> a wallet dustbuster add-on that used the raw transactions API to do that would better than a permanent button, I think.
19 2013-03-16 00:05:05 <etotheipi_> well it's easy for Armory, I'd just put it in the Expert interface
20 2013-03-16 00:05:25 <gavinandresen> there will still be a problem of paying transaction fees for people who have nothing but dust in their wallets
21 2013-03-16 00:05:36 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: true
22 2013-03-16 00:05:39 <MC-Droid_> dustbuster
23 2013-03-16 00:05:43 <MC-Droid_> heh
24 2013-03-16 00:05:56 <gavinandresen> ⦠although for extra credit the add-on could get an extra fee-paying input from erik
25 2013-03-16 00:06:02 <etotheipi_> haha
26 2013-03-16 00:07:11 <gavinandresen> that'd actually be better for the network: it'd be a send-to-self that collects dust and adds an input to pay transaction fee, plus 0.05 BTC
27 2013-03-16 00:07:34 <dhill> is there a max number of transactions per block? or is it limited by the max message size?
28 2013-03-16 00:07:35 <gavinandresen> and erik could check the dust to make sure it actually came from satoshidice (otherwise people will make dust just to get the 0.05 BTC)
29 2013-03-16 00:07:59 <gavinandresen> dhill: yes and yes
30 2013-03-16 00:08:00 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: yeah, the reward should be appropriate to prevent that
31 2013-03-16 00:08:14 <etotheipi_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect
32 2013-03-16 00:08:22 <dhill> ok, so no max number.. just max message size :)
33 2013-03-16 00:08:37 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: I was thinking that the return value would be based on how many UTXO it cleaned up
34 2013-03-16 00:08:39 <gavinandresen> dhill: there is max block size but also maximum number of signature operations per block
35 2013-03-16 00:09:07 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
36 2013-03-16 00:09:17 emryss has joined
37 2013-03-16 00:09:25 <dhill> where is the max signature operations defined?
38 2013-03-16 00:09:33 <gavinandresen> main.h
39 2013-03-16 00:09:54 <dhill> ahh, blocksize/50
40 2013-03-16 00:09:54 <gavinandresen> static const unsigned int MAX_BLOCK_SIGOPS = MAX_BLOCK_SIZE/50;
41 2013-03-16 00:10:32 jrmithdobbs has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
42 2013-03-16 00:10:33 <etotheipi_> but as sipa pointed out, reworking the fee "schedule" would solve some of this problem
43 2013-03-16 00:10:49 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: I'm not crazy about send-dust-to-address in one transaction, then you get a return transaction that pays you a tiny bit. Just increases txn volume...
44 2013-03-16 00:11:17 <etotheipi_> can we add a "throw away" script type that just lets emit a message that you are abandoning coins... then clients will know they don't have to track those UTXOs
45 2013-03-16 00:11:32 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: I think it'd work better as a lottery-- send a bunch of dust, and each input is a 'ticket' and one in N-thousand gets a bunch back
46 2013-03-16 00:11:49 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: so you mean, like a gambling service? :)
47 2013-03-16 00:12:00 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: yeah, that will NEVER workâ¦.
48 2013-03-16 00:12:58 <etotheipi_> the extra traffic is "worth it" if it's only used for transactions that collapse, say, 10+ UTXOs
49 2013-03-16 00:13:07 jrmithdobbs has joined
50 2013-03-16 00:13:09 <pjorrit_> yea just route all the dust back into sd ;D
51 2013-03-16 00:13:40 <cyphase> Sweep Dust
52 2013-03-16 00:13:43 <gavinandresen> mmm. That's another reason I don't like the "just send to address" -- would be nice to get pre-approval that you're sending enough, that the dust is from SD originally, etc
53 2013-03-16 00:13:44 <etotheipi_> has anyone histogrammed the size of all the dust outputs?
54 2013-03-16 00:14:09 <sipa> at some point i did, yes
55 2013-03-16 00:14:12 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: I don't think it needs to be specific to SD dust, it just needs to have enough "efficiency"
56 2013-03-16 00:14:33 <gavinandresen> I agree with sipa RE: efficiency: we can make normal transactions sweep dust, if the wallet is dusty
57 2013-03-16 00:14:42 <etotheipi_> I think Erik would be fine paying out for any dust if it's going to benefit the network in the long run
58 2013-03-16 00:14:43 <chmod755> etotheipi_, i calculated the gini coefficient of all bitcoin balances once
59 2013-03-16 00:14:45 gritcoin has joined
60 2013-03-16 00:14:58 <gavinandresen> ⦠and change the code so dust is never created
61 2013-03-16 00:15:18 gyver has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
62 2013-03-16 00:15:22 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: I like that as a long-term solution
63 2013-03-16 00:15:32 <etotheipi_> and I'll get more aggressive with dust-cleanup in Armory
64 2013-03-16 00:16:30 <gavinandresen> I think we need to change the relay rules so dusty txouts are considered non-standard. But that should be part of better-estimate-fees changes, too...
65 2013-03-16 00:16:43 <gavinandresen> (definition of dust depends on definition of fee, ideally)
66 2013-03-16 00:16:59 PlantMan has joined
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68 2013-03-16 00:18:31 <gavinandresen> Erik could take the decentralized approach: simply offer a bounty for any transaction that gets mined that fits the "eliminated dust, makes UTXO set smaller" criteria...
69 2013-03-16 00:18:59 <gavinandresen> ⦠he'd just send 0.05 BTC (or whatever) to one of the dusty addresses to pay out.
70 2013-03-16 00:19:18 <gavinandresen> I'm sure people would figure out a way to make the dust go away, if there was an incentive.
71 2013-03-16 00:20:37 <grau> gavinandresen: would not any transacion having more in than out help, therefore could be favored by fee?
72 2013-03-16 00:20:43 <gavinandresen> If he set an amount: "I'm going to pay up to 100 BTC to transactions that fit these criteriaâ¦" then there'd be a dust rush
73 2013-03-16 00:21:01 <Happzz> what's "dust'
74 2013-03-16 00:21:06 <gavinandresen> grau: sure, the priority algorithm should be tweaked to favor more ins than outs
75 2013-03-16 00:21:08 <iwilcox> Did someone post a blockchain torrent here the other day?
76 2013-03-16 00:21:35 <gavinandresen> Happzz: dust is unspent transaction outputs that cost more to the network to process/store than they are worth.
77 2013-03-16 00:21:58 <iwilcox> Is the dust problem now retrospective in that SD pays redeemable amounts?
78 2013-03-16 00:22:01 squish_ has joined
79 2013-03-16 00:22:03 <gavinandresen> Happzz : ⦠in other words, tiny little bits of bitcoins
80 2013-03-16 00:22:09 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Quit: bitcoinbulletin)
81 2013-03-16 00:22:33 <sipa> iwilcox: very likely - search the forum for blockchain torrent
82 2013-03-16 00:22:49 <squish_> mrning, guys. I've got a problem with my blockchain. could anyone help?
83 2013-03-16 00:22:56 <Happzz> gavinandresen 0.00000001 ?
84 2013-03-16 00:23:07 <gavinandresen> Happzz : yes, that's dust.
85 2013-03-16 00:23:12 <iwilcox> sipa: Oh, yeah, twas jgarzik. Sorry for laziness.
86 2013-03-16 00:23:15 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: that's an interesting idea... use Erik's money to enable "negative" transaction fees for long-term-favorable transacitons
87 2013-03-16 00:23:25 <Happzz> but if you pay the fees... it's worth just as much to process it as it is 100btcs
88 2013-03-16 00:24:03 <Happzz> why should we care if someone has 0.000whatever
89 2013-03-16 00:24:10 lil`nbv4 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
90 2013-03-16 00:24:23 <gavinandresen> Happzz: you'll pay more in fees than it is worth, so there is no incentive to spend it. And if you don't spend it, eventually the network may pay more to store it than it is worthâ¦.
91 2013-03-16 00:24:23 <Happzz> it's not like we can "clean the history" or anything, and wipe empty addresses
92 2013-03-16 00:24:42 <sipa> Happzz: there can be at most 210000 100 BTC outputs, but there can be billions of one-satoshi ouputs
93 2013-03-16 00:24:49 <Happzz> gavinandresen can't you spend it along with other bitcoins, from other addresses?
94 2013-03-16 00:24:56 jrmithdobbs has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
95 2013-03-16 00:25:03 <iwilcox> Does SD/Erik intend to stop doing losing bet stuff altogether? Dust aside, the idea of using Bitcoin as an instant messaging system, albeit a binary one, doesn't sit well with me.
96 2013-03-16 00:25:19 <sipa> Happzz: that's the correct solution imho
97 2013-03-16 00:25:23 <Happzz> like 0.999... from addr1 and 0.000...1 from add2
98 2013-03-16 00:25:26 <Happzz> and it's 1 whole btc
99 2013-03-16 00:25:32 <Happzz> and you still pay the same fixed fee
100 2013-03-16 00:25:55 <Happzz> so "you'll pay more in fees than it is worth" is an invalid claim
101 2013-03-16 00:26:14 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
102 2013-03-16 00:26:58 <Happzz> i really think it'll be wise to create checkpoints in the blockchain, in which all addresses that have a balance 0 will be taken out of the chain.
103 2013-03-16 00:27:09 <sipa> Happzz: there is a point where adding the extra txin to sweep a dust coin adds more bytes to the transaction than its value per cost/byte
104 2013-03-16 00:27:19 <gavinandresen> Happzz: so if you have 1,000 dusty outputs, it will take you a long time to get rid of them by attaching them to other transactions one or two at a time
105 2013-03-16 00:27:28 <sipa> Happzz: the chain doesn't remember addresses or balances
106 2013-03-16 00:27:37 jrmithdobbs has joined
107 2013-03-16 00:27:39 <sipa> Happzz: the chain functions in terms of unspent outputs
108 2013-03-16 00:27:41 lil`nbv4 has joined
109 2013-03-16 00:27:45 <Happzz> gavinandresen possibly, but 1000 dusty outputs do have a value.
110 2013-03-16 00:27:46 <sipa> and those do get cleaned up after spending
111 2013-03-16 00:28:00 <Happzz> sipa right. sorry, i'm not too familiar with it.
112 2013-03-16 00:28:21 <grau> gavinandresen, sipa: I guess the next recognition after dust will be that store of utxo in general is a cost therefore fee should depend on age of the input consumed.
113 2013-03-16 00:28:45 <Happzz> gavinandresen also, if you consider the future, those "dusty" outputs are possibly going to be worth a lot.
114 2013-03-16 00:29:05 <gavinandresen> grau: would you charge more or less for an old input?
115 2013-03-16 00:29:15 <cyphase> hmm, i never really thought of addresses as just a layer on top of the bitcoin protocol using scripts
116 2013-03-16 00:29:24 <grau> more
117 2013-03-16 00:29:24 <sipa> grau: makes sense, yes
118 2013-03-16 00:29:27 <cyphase> even though that's what they are.. right?
119 2013-03-16 00:29:38 <grau> and we arrive at th ed word
120 2013-03-16 00:29:39 <gavinandresen> grau: ⦠but if you charge more then the incentive is to spend only the newest inputs....
121 2013-03-16 00:30:06 <Happzz> why do we care if newest or oldest is spent
122 2013-03-16 00:30:09 <grau> yes, that is fine for caching
123 2013-03-16 00:30:12 <sipa> grau: i'd do it differently: you get charged when creating an output for the cost of its _perpetual_ storage from that point on
124 2013-03-16 00:30:20 <grau> but youd have to pay for storage basically
125 2013-03-16 00:30:28 <grau> proportional to time
126 2013-03-16 00:30:29 <sipa> grau: and when consuming it, you get "refunded" the amount it would cost to store it from that point on
127 2013-03-16 00:30:41 <iwilcox> cyphase: Yeah, it's neat that addresses are really a puzzle which must be solved. I'm looking forward to more exotic transactions, in time.
128 2013-03-16 00:30:47 <sipa> as the cost for eternal storage drops with time, you get the right incentive
129 2013-03-16 00:30:58 <gavinandresen> sipa: yes, I like that better. Although the cost of storing an output forever is pretty darn small
130 2013-03-16 00:30:59 <cyphase> iwilcox, same :). contracts and things
131 2013-03-16 00:31:03 <sipa> except the fee can't get negative, so i'd rather encode this in the priority rather than the cost
132 2013-03-16 00:31:39 <sipa> gavinandresen: storing _forever_ on _every_ fully validating node in _fast_ storage
133 2013-03-16 00:31:49 bitcoinbulletin has joined
134 2013-03-16 00:31:49 <Happzz> bitcoin-qt needs an option to move all funds to a single address
135 2013-03-16 00:31:59 <Happzz> so less to backup and stuff
136 2013-03-16 00:32:10 <grau> sipa: what we have here is just analogous of real goods
137 2013-03-16 00:32:24 <grau> you have storage cost proportional with time
138 2013-03-16 00:32:41 <grau> it is not popular but is true
139 2013-03-16 00:32:57 shamoon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
140 2013-03-16 00:33:04 <sipa> well, assuming an exponential drop of cost/byte, the cost for storing eternally is finite
141 2013-03-16 00:33:08 <grau> and storage costs tha same for 1 satoshi as for 1 btc]
142 2013-03-16 00:33:24 <Happzz> hey guys
143 2013-03-16 00:33:24 <Happzz> [02:10] <Happzz> bitcoin-qt needs an option to move all funds to a single address
144 2013-03-16 00:33:32 <grau> that is why dust is a problem
145 2013-03-16 00:33:39 <gavinandresen> sipa: fully validating miners will have to build that cost in to the transaction fees they demand, but I do agree we need to build in the right incentives
146 2013-03-16 00:33:52 <sipa> gavinandresen: s/miners //
147 2013-03-16 00:33:57 <Happzz> make it "free" to collect all of you "dust" to a single address
148 2013-03-16 00:34:03 <Happzz> and you get rid of all of the dust.
149 2013-03-16 00:34:25 <sipa> gavinandresen: the cost of paying non-mining validating nodes is hidden, but the economy somehow has to pay for that
150 2013-03-16 00:34:55 squish_ has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
151 2013-03-16 00:34:57 <pjorrit_> no you can only collect the dust to another address by creating a new transaction and you have to pay for that
152 2013-03-16 00:35:04 ProfMac has joined
153 2013-03-16 00:35:07 <iwilcox> Happzz: But you'd have to still make it costly to flood the network with microtransactions; hard to distinguish between the two?
154 2013-03-16 00:35:21 <Happzz> collect _all_ of the dust in a single tx
155 2013-03-16 00:35:34 <Happzz> i mean, it's less spam than keeping all of the dust
156 2013-03-16 00:36:13 <grau> Happzz: that would be achived with favoring tx with more in than out
157 2013-03-16 00:36:23 <pjorrit_> yea the utxo farmers could make it cheap if they don't like keeping it in memory
158 2013-03-16 00:37:29 <Happzz> ^
159 2013-03-16 00:37:42 <grau> I think the fee formula has to 1. favor more in vs out. 2. increase with age of the input, 3. increase with size of the tx
160 2013-03-16 00:38:04 <Happzz> i also think that even if you jsut make the default client cooperate with that
161 2013-03-16 00:38:06 <gavinandresen> increase with age of inputs I disagree with.
162 2013-03-16 00:38:20 <Happzz> i.e. prefer to spend dust along with real money and not just real money
163 2013-03-16 00:38:22 <Happzz> it'll make life easier
164 2013-03-16 00:38:33 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
165 2013-03-16 00:38:39 <gavinandresen> If I've got eleven unspent inputs, and I'm going to use five of them to pay to one address⦠age doesn't matter at all
166 2013-03-16 00:38:53 <Happzz> like, if you have a1 with 0.001 and a2 with 100, and you wanna send 1 btc, then you send 0.001 from a1, and 0.999 from a2, rather than 1 from a2
167 2013-03-16 00:38:54 TD has joined
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169 2013-03-16 00:39:07 <Happzz> that'll get rid of dust
170 2013-03-16 00:39:09 <gavinandresen> ⦠there will still be 7 unspent outputs that must be maintained after, doesn't matter if some are newer or older
171 2013-03-16 00:39:19 <randy-waterhouse> create a "dust rush" ... nice concept, after all the big gold nuggets and chunks lying on riverbeds were picked up people started panning for bitdust
172 2013-03-16 00:39:36 <Happzz> gavinandresen what do you think about what i just said
173 2013-03-16 00:39:48 <Happzz> prefer to spend the smaller outputs first
174 2013-03-16 00:39:53 <gavinandresen> Happzz: yes, that will happen, sweeping dust with normal transactions is almost certain to get implemented. It just hurts privacy, but I think I've stopped caring about that
175 2013-03-16 00:39:54 <grau> gavinandresen: you disagree then with the real costs to the network. storage should be paid by whoever uses it , and that is the owner of the input
176 2013-03-16 00:40:05 <randy-waterhouse> nowadays they are processing thousands of tons of ore for microscopic flecks and amalgams that only release the gold through chemical processing
177 2013-03-16 00:40:08 <Happzz> who cares about privacy.
178 2013-03-16 00:40:25 <Happzz> and something needs to be done about SD :/
179 2013-03-16 00:40:55 <grau> gavinandresen: and longer storage costs more since replicated again and agian
180 2013-03-16 00:41:06 <randy-waterhouse> infinite divisibilty meets finite tx-space
181 2013-03-16 00:41:07 <sipa> grau: but you should pay for the storage when creating it, not when you pick it up, as that creates an incentive to never pick it up (and never gets paid)
182 2013-03-16 00:41:29 <grau> sipa: you will pick up zour monez at some point
183 2013-03-16 00:41:39 <sipa> grau: not when it costs more to pick it up than to use it
184 2013-03-16 00:41:39 <grau> no one needs money for having it
185 2013-03-16 00:41:59 <grau> you pay for storage that you consumed
186 2013-03-16 00:42:03 <grau> not for using it now
187 2013-03-16 00:42:09 <iwilcox> randy-waterhouse: See that thing about mining the ocean floor and around deep sea vents for gold/copper recently?
188 2013-03-16 00:43:11 <iwilcox> randy-waterhouse: Much like oil from shale wasn't cost-effective til recently, they'd been thinking about this since the 70s.
189 2013-03-16 00:43:21 <sipa> grau: "Hello, this is SatoshiStore warehouse. We inform you that you still have 3 satoshi stored with us. Since it has been here for 3 years, you can pick it up for 0.01 BTC." - will you ever pick it up?
190 2013-03-16 00:44:19 <grau> sipa: the fee has to have a cap such that spending is still possible.
191 2013-03-16 00:44:36 <gavinandresen> the fee will be whatever miners decide.
192 2013-03-16 00:44:57 <grau> there are edge cases like you created, but the logic is valid IMHO
193 2013-03-16 00:45:21 <gavinandresen> ⦠and, again: if it is a 5-input, 1-output transaction, then that decreases the miner's UTXO cost. Age of the inputs doesn't matter.
194 2013-03-16 00:45:33 <grau> gavinandresen: true, and they also incur costs following the same logic
195 2013-03-16 00:45:40 <sipa> grau: i don't see the problem with "paying for eternity" when you store, and getting a refund for the part of eternity where you got it back
196 2013-03-16 00:46:17 <grau> sipa: that might be a start to the right direction
197 2013-03-16 00:46:22 <sipa> which doesn't have strange edge cases, and always has the right incentive
198 2013-03-16 00:46:29 <bVector> sipa: what is 10% of eternity?
199 2013-03-16 00:46:46 <gavinandresen> sigh. I'm going to dig out that Hayek quote....
200 2013-03-16 00:47:09 <gavinandresen> "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."
201 2013-03-16 00:47:13 i0X has joined
202 2013-03-16 00:47:31 <sipa> ha
203 2013-03-16 00:47:40 <gavinandresen> So: I have no idea what the right answer for fees is. We need to create a market between miners and users, and let the fees go where they belong.
204 2013-03-16 00:47:42 <grau> sipa: I am afraid that starting fee will then have to be set higher than the other way around
205 2013-03-16 00:47:59 <sipa> grau: of course
206 2013-03-16 00:48:18 <gavinandresen> If miners want to charge more for transactions that have txids with more 1-bits than 0-bits because it costs them a little more in electricity⦠okey dokey.
207 2013-03-16 00:49:19 <pjorrit_> ha Stickler Mining co. :)
208 2013-03-16 00:49:20 gyver has joined
209 2013-03-16 00:49:26 <grau> gavinandresen: you try to get out of the problem. but we should rather have a suggestion that is at least technically feasible since using parameters we now cost the network
210 2013-03-16 00:49:57 <gavinandresen> UTXO size is not a problem yet....
211 2013-03-16 00:50:10 ThomasV has joined
212 2013-03-16 00:50:18 <grau> what is dust then if not a problem of utxo size?
213 2013-03-16 00:50:23 <gavinandresen> I agree we should watch it, and adjust if it is growing at an unsustainable rate
214 2013-03-16 00:50:34 <gavinandresen> Right now, dust is a problem for users' wallets
215 2013-03-16 00:50:56 panzerfaust has joined
216 2013-03-16 00:51:10 <gavinandresen> .. they wonder why they can't spend their 0.0001 BTC wallet balance, not realizing it is tens of thousands of tiny inputs
217 2013-03-16 00:51:56 <gavinandresen> I think making dust txouts non-standard, after adjusting the client(s) so they never produce dust outputs, would fix the problem.
218 2013-03-16 00:52:10 <gavinandresen> well, keep it from getting any worse than it is right now
219 2013-03-16 00:52:43 panzer has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
220 2013-03-16 00:52:45 <grau> ok, but for definition of dust we need a definition of fee
221 2013-03-16 00:52:51 <gavinandresen> yes
222 2013-03-16 00:53:20 <gavinandresen> fee == "amount that will convince a miner to include your txn in a reasonable amount of time"
223 2013-03-16 00:53:30 potato5491 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
224 2013-03-16 00:53:32 <grau> yes
225 2013-03-16 00:53:41 <gavinandresen> dust == "significantly less than fee"
226 2013-03-16 00:54:30 <grau> I guess primary criteria for miner is size of a tx
227 2013-03-16 00:54:56 <grau> since theey want highest fee/kb
228 2013-03-16 00:54:58 <pjorrit_> until they get utxo problems
229 2013-03-16 00:55:08 <grau> that is step 2.
230 2013-03-16 00:55:27 <grau> which is they should prefer shrinkage of utxo.
231 2013-03-16 00:55:36 <grau> that is more in than out
232 2013-03-16 00:55:45 <gavinandresen> yes, according to my calculations size is most important, because it affects block orphan rate. By far. Much more important than utxo size.
233 2013-03-16 00:56:28 i0X has left ()
234 2013-03-16 00:57:32 <randy-waterhouse> block reward incentivised miners to create ASICs from scratch ... that was quite feat in retrospect
235 2013-03-16 00:58:26 <randy-waterhouse> fees are paid to block reward address correct?
236 2013-03-16 00:58:38 <grau> yes
237 2013-03-16 00:59:32 <gavinandresen> technically, to the coinbase transaction in the block, which might not be an address...
238 2013-03-16 00:59:47 <randy-waterhouse> ah
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240 2013-03-16 01:04:45 <randy-waterhouse> default fee tx to sweep dust into coinbase tx?
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242 2013-03-16 01:05:44 <grau> you ca not sweep dust of others
243 2013-03-16 01:06:07 <randy-waterhouse> no, but any dust associated with fee tx
244 2013-03-16 01:06:07 <grau> coinbase has no input
245 2013-03-16 01:06:55 <grau> coinbase has no input it does not collect the fees, just adds them up to materialize
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247 2013-03-16 01:07:40 <randy-waterhouse> where do the fees get spent to?
248 2013-03-16 01:07:57 <grau> randy-waterhouse: fee is actually difference of in and outputs it is implicit
249 2013-03-16 01:08:19 <gavinandresen> fees disappear and magically re-appear in the 25 BTC+fees miner reward transaction
250 2013-03-16 01:08:31 <randy-waterhouse> sounds like a great place to send dust to then
251 2013-03-16 01:08:41 <grau> randy-waterhouse ; it is not sent anywhere, it disappears in the tx and rematerializes in coinbase if you wish
252 2013-03-16 01:08:54 <randy-waterhouse> yes, that's what i meant
253 2013-03-16 01:09:09 <gavinandresen> sure, client behavior for dusty inputs would be to add them to a transaction you're sending anyway, and just add them on to the fee.
254 2013-03-16 01:09:33 <gavinandresen> ⦠but not add so many that you'd have to pay more in fees....
255 2013-03-16 01:10:16 <grau> gavinandresen: yes, I think dust have to be addressed on client side by aggregation and in relay rules to ban them from the network
256 2013-03-16 01:10:28 <gavinandresen> grau: yes
257 2013-03-16 01:11:26 <gavinandresen> we made a mistake when we make 0-value outputs non-standard; we should have made dust-or-less-valued-outputs non-standard.
258 2013-03-16 01:11:35 <jgarzik> pool payout policies have an impact, too. some pools will pay out X.12345678 algorithmically, while others have a set-your-own-payout policy which de facto encourages round numbers
259 2013-03-16 01:11:46 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: agreed
260 2013-03-16 01:12:04 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: and it sounded like there was consensus to do that
261 2013-03-16 01:12:07 paraipan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
262 2013-03-16 01:12:55 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: P.S. I was surprised at the lack of negative reaction to the posting (CC'd bitcoin-dev@SF) I made https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130450.0 and associated pull req
263 2013-03-16 01:13:03 <jgarzik> RFC: Updating dust output definition, and default fees
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266 2013-03-16 01:15:20 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I've read that post at least five time and I'm still have trouble parsing it...
267 2013-03-16 01:16:07 <grau> nite
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270 2013-03-16 01:16:34 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: stick: raises fees. carrot: dust definition decreased.
271 2013-03-16 01:16:50 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: for the purposes of fees, currently the code's definition of "dust" is 0.01 BTC
272 2013-03-16 01:17:07 <gavinandresen> mmm. So minimum fee would be about 5cents/kilobyte at a price of about $50 ?
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274 2013-03-16 01:18:08 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: This cosmetic patch is useful, because it highlights our current dust fee definition and use: https://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin/commit/fea684d3b1a6c5c23a37c9e2b90fc65c9d421608
275 2013-03-16 01:18:28 <jgarzik> spiffy github highlighting shows all
276 2013-03-16 01:19:13 <jgarzik> Associated pull req is https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2100
277 2013-03-16 01:19:54 <gavinandresen> mmm. I think I don't like it because it doesn't match current mining policy, which is "sort by priority" then "sort by fee, with a minimum fee/kb cutoff"
278 2013-03-16 01:20:33 <gavinandresen> there is no "require dusty transactions to pay a fee" in the select-coins-for-block code, if I remember correctly
279 2013-03-16 01:21:02 <gavinandresen> The mismatch between mining policy and client policy is just because I haven't had time to fix the client policy....
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284 2013-03-16 01:23:59 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: de facto there is, due to relay policy
285 2013-03-16 01:24:26 <gavinandresen> true, relay policy needs to change...
286 2013-03-16 01:24:35 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: to permit more dust???
287 2013-03-16 01:25:19 <gavinandresen> no, dust should be non-standard and therefore not relayed: where dust == 1/10'th fee or something
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289 2013-03-16 01:28:55 <ryan_> ^ÃÃÃÃÃâêîôûÄÄÄÄĤĥĴĵÅÅŴŵŶŷËÌÌá·á¸á¸á¸á¸á¸¼á¸½á¹á¹á¹°á¹±á¹¶á¹·áºáºáº¤áº¥áº¦áº§áº¨áº©áºªáº«áº¬áºáº¾áº¿á»á»á»á»á»á»
á»á»á»á»á»á»á»á»á»á»á»á»â¨£â¨¶â©¯êï¼¾ó
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291 2013-03-16 01:29:15 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: who's fee?
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295 2013-03-16 01:29:54 <Luke-Jr> miners do not all use the same fee schedule, note
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312 2013-03-16 01:46:07 <randy-waterhouse> bitcoin, the system, gets its feedback from the real world about hashpower via block solve times
313 2013-03-16 01:46:16 <randy-waterhouse> and makes difficulty adjustments
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315 2013-03-16 01:46:59 <randy-waterhouse> right now there is no such feedback mechanism from the real world regards blockchain resources
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320 2013-03-16 01:48:11 <randy-waterhouse> in regards to haspower it adjusts whether there are 50 guys on alaptop running miners or thousands of guys with asics/gpus
321 2013-03-16 01:48:35 <sipa> it doesn't make a difference either
322 2013-03-16 01:48:42 <randy-waterhouse> right
323 2013-03-16 01:48:58 <sipa> the blockchain cannot grow more or less easy whether there is little or much hashpower
324 2013-03-16 01:49:17 <randy-waterhouse> no the two are mostly unrelated
325 2013-03-16 01:49:26 <sipa> it can grow more easily when the computer systems of full validation nodes increase in power
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327 2013-03-16 01:49:52 <randy-waterhouse> but it has no way of knowing if that is the case or not ... whereas with difficulty and solve times it does
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332 2013-03-16 01:52:08 <randy-waterhouse> it needs another parameter fed into, analogous to solve time, but for blockchain resources available and adjust the incentive to add or decrease
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346 2013-03-16 02:10:35 <jgarzik> It is disappointing that zero-txout transactions are not permitted
347 2013-03-16 02:10:43 <jgarzik> i.e. a "burn money, all fee" transaction
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349 2013-03-16 02:11:08 <jgarzik> further, with zero-value outputs non-standard, that means you have to create change, in order to burn money
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351 2013-03-16 02:11:10 <jgarzik> not optimal
352 2013-03-16 02:15:13 <jgarzik> (changing topics)
353 2013-03-16 02:15:19 <jgarzik> Interesting SD figures: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=80312.msg1515541#msg1515541
354 2013-03-16 02:15:37 <jgarzik> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=80312.msg1555528#msg1555528
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407 2013-03-16 03:07:33 <Vinnie_win> sup
408 2013-03-16 03:08:07 <Vinnie_win> What did I miss, some juicy SatoshiDice gossip?
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430 2013-03-16 03:39:57 <warren> jgarzik: the COIN_DUST and fee change achieves the same policy goal as my pollution tax suggestion. So bravo.
431 2013-03-16 03:40:11 <warren> jgarzik: I'm glad how simple your version is.
432 2013-03-16 03:41:10 <warren> oh wait, it isn't exactly ... an improvement though.
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489 2013-03-16 05:04:55 <gritcoin> Is "The only way to confirm the absence of a transaction is to be aware of all transactions." on pg. 2 of the bitcoin paper a broad assertion or is it referring to bitcoin-esque systems only? Because it seems like a very strong assertion if the first.
490 2013-03-16 05:05:53 <andytoshi> gritcoin: this is true of any system, but is only really meaningful in the decentralized case
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493 2013-03-16 05:08:43 <gritcoin> I guess it depends on the meaning of "be aware of"; because surely there are models in which the absence of a transaction can be determined by inspection of a sufficient subset of all transactions.
494 2013-03-16 05:09:11 <gritcoin> (if there is inter-transaction information dependency of the proper form)
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500 2013-03-16 05:10:45 <andytoshi> gritcoin: a "sufficient subset" would have to be everything, if you didn't know anything about the missing transaction, no?
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504 2013-03-16 05:11:42 <gritcoin> Well, if it is a transaction you care about the absence of, you know something about it, or you wouldn't care.
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507 2013-03-16 05:14:33 <gritcoin> For instance in a system in which all units of currency were assigned unique prime identifiers, and every transaction with a given "coin" involved multiplying some master number by that id, the number of factors of that id in the master number that had accumulated would tell you the number of transactions that had occurred with that coin, which might be zero, and you could check that without knowing about any other transactions
508 2013-03-16 05:15:39 <gritcoin> (impractical system yes). Anyway it's not terribly important - just trying to think about the introductory matter in the paper more deeply. But probably drifting OT
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518 2013-03-16 05:26:13 <jgarzik_> boy
519 2013-03-16 05:26:15 <jgarzik_> a flood of this,
520 2013-03-16 05:26:18 <jgarzik_> 2013-03-16 05:02:07 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : inputs already spent
521 2013-03-16 05:26:18 <jgarzik_> 2013-03-16 05:02:07 Misbehaving: 173.170.142.26:8333 (0 -> 0)
522 2013-03-16 05:26:47 <jgarzik_> I wonder if we could get sipa's crawler to exclude addresses that have been noted as misbehaving
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584 2013-03-16 06:26:01 <sam_> hi
585 2013-03-16 06:27:00 <sam_> i want to use bitcoin in my website it is asp.net c# but i dont how can i use that please help me :)
586 2013-03-16 06:28:39 jimbit_ is now known as jimbit
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589 2013-03-16 06:32:14 <sam_> anybody is here can help me please
590 2013-03-16 06:32:15 BenderCoin has joined
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592 2013-03-16 06:36:37 <Eneerge> uhm okay
593 2013-03-16 06:36:44 <Eneerge> set up iis
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604 2013-03-16 06:49:12 <midnightmagic> hah, cool. PrimeCoin(tm)
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606 2013-03-16 06:52:01 <warren> good luck getting anyone to use your alt coin if you trademark it.
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620 2013-03-16 07:04:40 <midnightmagic> warren: .. hm?
621 2013-03-16 07:05:15 <warren> I need to ban myself from IRC when I'm stressed out and tired.
622 2013-03-16 07:05:22 <warren> bb tomorrow
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626 2013-03-16 07:14:26 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
627 2013-03-16 07:19:10 eoss has joined
628 2013-03-16 07:19:28 <jgarzik_> Hrm. All cloudflare sites seem broken.
629 2013-03-16 07:19:41 * jgarzik_ bets it is IPv6, and sixxs<->cloudflare
630 2013-03-16 07:19:49 <jgarzik_> filtering out proxying, or whatnot
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636 2013-03-16 07:31:10 <DeeBG> aloha all
637 2013-03-16 07:33:20 BenderCoin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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641 2013-03-16 07:39:02 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
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643 2013-03-16 07:39:45 <_g> do i have to trust blockchain.info's wallet service, or is it all clientside js?
644 2013-03-16 07:40:51 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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652 2013-03-16 07:43:45 <DeeBG> its clientside, the important stuff anyway
653 2013-03-16 07:44:01 BenderCoin has joined
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655 2013-03-16 07:44:05 <DeeBG> all based in your browser/cellphone
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660 2013-03-16 07:46:27 <_g> DeeBG: thanks.
661 2013-03-16 07:46:44 tsche has joined
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665 2013-03-16 07:47:58 <_g> another question i have, are there any SD like competitors that act as a mixing service? so that you can send them an output address but make similar types of "bets" that SD does?
666 2013-03-16 07:47:58 <DeeBG> np
667 2013-03-16 07:48:44 dc8181 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
668 2013-03-16 07:48:54 <DeeBG> The other services I have seen use only use a deposit/withdrawl method.
669 2013-03-16 07:49:14 Goonie has joined
670 2013-03-16 07:50:56 <_g> DeeBG: that would be fine, really. if they had enough traffic it seems like that would be a relatively effective mixing service just by accident
671 2013-03-16 07:51:38 gyver has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
672 2013-03-16 07:51:42 <_g> but i suppose thats really true for any service that holds bitcoin balances and is using bitcoind
673 2013-03-16 07:53:21 <DeeBG> heh yeah, although I don't think the big names would be effective for that purpose as they don't have consistant "instant raffles"
674 2013-03-16 07:53:48 <DeeBG> I don't know how sealswithclubs is setup but peerbet doesn't even use bitcoind
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737 2013-03-16 09:23:33 <_g> do change addresses get conslidated automatically?
738 2013-03-16 09:25:45 thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
739 2013-03-16 09:25:47 <_g> that is, if i send 1 btc from address 1zx that has 1.5 btc and also send 1btc from 1zy that has 1.4 btc; does the .4 and .5 change get merged into a single address, ever, by bitcoind?
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814 2013-03-16 11:12:48 <o-p> Is there any C/C++ code out there that returns the balance associated with an address or public key (not necessarily in wallet) by locally querying the blockchain (no internet connection)?
815 2013-03-16 11:13:00 <jouke> o-p: yes
816 2013-03-16 11:13:40 <jouke> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88584.0
817 2013-03-16 11:13:49 <flyingkiwiguy> gavinandresen: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alerts_mailing_list
818 2013-03-16 11:14:01 <o-p> Nice, I will look at it
819 2013-03-16 11:14:13 <o-p> thanks jouke
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881 2013-03-16 12:03:49 <Xeno-Genesis> I'm sorry, I'd like to know what's the criteria for being banned from this channel
882 2013-03-16 12:04:21 <Xeno-Genesis> I found myself banned awhile ago for no apparent reason, except perhaps that I was connecting to Freenode through Mullvad VPN service
883 2013-03-16 12:05:38 <Xeno-Genesis> I must add that I was using SASL as well
884 2013-03-16 12:06:16 ThomasV has joined
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890 2013-03-16 12:10:47 <Scrat> Xeno-Genesis: spammers/abusers
891 2013-03-16 12:11:20 <Scrat> sometimes a ban is wide enough to include legitimate users, in that case pm an op
892 2013-03-16 12:12:17 gyver has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
893 2013-03-16 12:12:22 <iwilcox> That, plus you're Irish.
894 2013-03-16 12:12:38 <Xeno-Genesis> Scrat, thanks, I believe there may be abusers using Mullvad VPN, so I switched to Tor for connecting to IRC
895 2013-03-16 12:12:43 Belkaar has joined
896 2013-03-16 12:12:46 <Xeno-Genesis> iwilcox, I'm in Ireland, but I'm not Irish :)
897 2013-03-16 12:12:55 <iwilcox> Oh, heh
898 2013-03-16 12:13:11 gyver has joined
899 2013-03-16 12:13:14 <Scrat> mullvad is not banned
900 2013-03-16 12:13:17 <Scrat> [13:34] * Hashdog (~jan@nl4x.mullvad.net) has joined #bitcoin-dev
901 2013-03-16 12:13:29 <Xeno-Genesis> Scrat, that's pretty weird
902 2013-03-16 12:13:53 <Xeno-Genesis> I usually connect, I just got banned awhile ago
903 2013-03-16 12:14:07 Hashdog has joined
904 2013-03-16 12:15:40 <flyingkiwiguy> Eddy's in the space-time continuum, maybe?
905 2013-03-16 12:15:51 kAntonio has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
906 2013-03-16 12:16:45 <Scrat> there are quite a few C class and isp wide bans in the banlist
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926 2013-03-16 12:38:25 <bitnumus> can someone tell me why bitcoin-qt shows a grey box for the transfaction indicator ?.
927 2013-03-16 12:38:39 <bitnumus> i get this quite alot.
928 2013-03-16 12:38:40 <bitnumus> Status: 0/offline, has not been successfully broadcast yet
929 2013-03-16 12:38:46 <bitnumus> i have to restart the client
930 2013-03-16 12:40:19 <iwilcox> What does the debug log say about it?
931 2013-03-16 12:40:20 <Happzz> for the what?
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944 2013-03-16 12:50:26 <zechiel> Are the criteria for unspendable outputs (dust) the same on testnet as on the main network?
945 2013-03-16 12:51:02 ciphermonk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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949 2013-03-16 12:52:45 <bitnumus> iwilcox, what do you mean?
950 2013-03-16 12:52:57 <bitnumus> it happens quite alot
951 2013-03-16 12:53:03 <bitnumus> Status: 0/offline, has not been successfully broadcast yet
952 2013-03-16 12:53:10 <bitnumus> as soon as i restart client, it transmits
953 2013-03-16 12:53:50 <iwilcox> I mean if there's something stopping the tx send, the logfile will probably say why.
954 2013-03-16 12:53:55 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
955 2013-03-16 12:53:59 <iwilcox> ~/.bitcoin/debug.log or wherever
956 2013-03-16 12:55:03 <bitnumus> Misbehaving:
957 2013-03-16 12:55:15 <bitnumus> ERROR: ProcessBlock() : already have block 220158 000000000000019620d778f3ca8ccd646ed618382d583a55421a61f8e024c362
958 2013-03-16 12:55:38 <bitnumus> looks like i have 1000s of these errors.
959 2013-03-16 12:57:40 <iwilcox> You might have one or two bad peers saved I guess.
960 2013-03-16 12:58:03 <iwilcox> I'd expect something explicitly about the send though; AIUI what you've pasted is about receiving.
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994 2013-03-16 14:00:55 <chmod755> if there are two alerts with the same attributes and both are active - does the last incoming alert overwrite the error message?
995 2013-03-16 14:01:12 <flyingkiwiguy> good q chmod755
996 2013-03-16 14:01:30 <flyingkiwiguy> I was going to ask gavinandresen on alert persistance in general
997 2013-03-16 14:01:34 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
998 2013-03-16 14:01:48 <chmod755> i'd like to see all active alerts for different versions
999 2013-03-16 14:01:59 <flyingkiwiguy> and why there was no alert for Monday's fun 'n' games
1000 2013-03-16 14:02:26 <flyingkiwiguy> chmod755: does the Bitcoin protocal have a version?
1001 2013-03-16 14:02:40 <flyingkiwiguy> ahh, v1, v2
1002 2013-03-16 14:06:03 <chmod755> :o eCardOne is a Bitcoin Foundation member?
1003 2013-03-16 14:12:39 MC-Droid has joined
1004 2013-03-16 14:13:12 ciphermonk has joined
1005 2013-03-16 14:13:57 <sturles> Why not?
1006 2013-03-16 14:14:36 <chmod755> sturles, uhm it doesn't look like they're using bitcoin (so far?)
1007 2013-03-16 14:15:28 <chmod755> oh wait
1008 2013-03-16 14:15:40 <chmod755> 2013-02-19 Bitcoin
1009 2013-03-16 14:15:41 <chmod755> eCardone supports Bitcoin. Revolutionary internet currency called Bitcoin is now available in your eCardOne account.
1010 2013-03-16 14:15:42 <sturles> Thye have been using bitcoin for a month.
1011 2013-03-16 14:15:55 <chmod755> didn't see it
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1042 2013-03-16 15:01:16 <Ogig> Hi guys. Anybody knows if it's technically possible to create a gpu opengl mining webpage?
1043 2013-03-16 15:02:03 <HM2> https://www.khronos.org/webcl/
1044 2013-03-16 15:04:15 Dyaheon has quit ()
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1049 2013-03-16 15:10:42 <Ogig> Thanks HM2, but webcl implementation status is at a very early stage. No chances of making it with webgl alone? excuse if the question is stupid, i don't know how miners work exactly yet.
1050 2013-03-16 15:11:02 <sipa> webgl is for drawing fancy 3d things
1051 2013-03-16 15:12:09 ThomasV has joined
1052 2013-03-16 15:13:10 joe_k has joined
1053 2013-03-16 15:13:31 <CodeShark> the kind of math required for 3D graphics doesn't easily translate to greater mining power :)
1054 2013-03-16 15:13:45 <Luke-Jr> pretty sure someone made a WebGL miner once
1055 2013-03-16 15:13:50 <CodeShark> lol
1056 2013-03-16 15:13:52 Anduck has joined
1057 2013-03-16 15:14:16 <CodeShark> just as a nerd project? or is it actually useful?
1058 2013-03-16 15:14:49 <sipa> can webgl even do integer math?
1059 2013-03-16 15:14:55 <Ogig> i see. could be said that webgl and webcl are providing access to the same hardware but in a different way/for a different purpose?
1060 2013-03-16 15:15:24 <CodeShark> javascript can't do integer math, sipa :p
1061 2013-03-16 15:15:46 <HM2> the newer revisions of js have 32bit ints
1062 2013-03-16 15:15:48 <HM2> i think
1063 2013-03-16 15:15:49 <Ogig> yea
1064 2013-03-16 15:16:00 <CodeShark> really, HM2?
1065 2013-03-16 15:16:11 <CodeShark> JS is dynamically typed - how does that work?
1066 2013-03-16 15:16:23 <CodeShark> I guess it's a runtime engine optimization
1067 2013-03-16 15:16:26 <sipa> CodeShark: python is also dynamically typed
1068 2013-03-16 15:16:27 <HM2> var magic = new Int32();
1069 2013-03-16 15:16:30 <HM2> or some such thing
1070 2013-03-16 15:16:32 <sipa> it can also do integer math...
1071 2013-03-16 15:16:36 <HM2> my awareness is limited, i hate webdev
1072 2013-03-16 15:16:36 Xeno-Genesis has joined
1073 2013-03-16 15:16:40 <iwilcox> 16 bits should be enough for anybody.
1074 2013-03-16 15:16:47 Dyaheon has joined
1075 2013-03-16 15:16:52 <sipa> hell, javascript has a ^ operator for XOR
1076 2013-03-16 15:17:00 <sipa> how do you do that without integers?
1077 2013-03-16 15:17:09 <Ogig> javascript wont be the limitation, that's for sure.
1078 2013-03-16 15:17:13 <HM2> in any case, i'm pretty sure even older ecmascript specifies double precision, so you have +/- ~50 bits integer arithmetic
1079 2013-03-16 15:17:16 <CodeShark> sipa: my understanding is that javascript converts floats to an internal int and then converts back to float
1080 2013-03-16 15:17:22 <CodeShark> but perhaps I'm wrong
1081 2013-03-16 15:17:40 <sipa> CodeShark: could be, but if that conversion is transparent, it doesn't matter right?
1082 2013-03-16 15:17:48 <sipa> semantically, it does integer math
1083 2013-03-16 15:17:48 <CodeShark> well, it matters for performance
1084 2013-03-16 15:17:55 <sipa> i'm sure that gets optimized away
1085 2013-03-16 15:18:08 <sipa> recent javascript engines even infer datatypes afaik
1086 2013-03-16 15:18:09 <iwilcox> Ogig: You've got actual hardware, then the OS, then processes in general, then the browser, then the sandbox within the browser; at each level fewer and fewer resources are available to you, kind of on purpose. Mining really needs resources.
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1092 2013-03-16 15:18:43 <Ogig> iwilcox, yea, that sounds very reasonable, the browser is a hell of layers away
1093 2013-03-16 15:18:50 <HM2> sipa: the js standard itself specifies that numerics in js are double precision floats
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1096 2013-03-16 15:18:59 <Ogig> still it sounds like a good idea to have a mining pool as easy to use as "connect to this webpage"
1097 2013-03-16 15:19:00 <sipa> cool
1098 2013-03-16 15:19:06 <sipa> well, stupid, actually
1099 2013-03-16 15:19:10 <CodeShark> lol
1100 2013-03-16 15:19:12 <sipa> but hey - it's for the web!
1101 2013-03-16 15:19:23 <CodeShark> javascript is a funny language
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1104 2013-03-16 15:19:34 <HM2> it is stupid. scripting languages for the web should default to arbitrary precision ints imho
1105 2013-03-16 15:19:36 <CodeShark> it has some really powerful deep stuff but a bunch of really stupid things
1106 2013-03-16 15:19:49 <iwilcox> Ogig: Well, you can, for fun, but it'd be so inefficient as to be a massive net loss.
1107 2013-03-16 15:19:59 <HM2> Lua is the same btw. no integer type -_-
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1120 2013-03-16 15:21:10 <CodeShark> javascript was developed to make it stupid simple to add clientside logic to webpages but evolved into a sophisticated prototypal language
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1125 2013-03-16 15:21:32 <iwilcox> *splutter*
1126 2013-03-16 15:21:40 <CodeShark> so it kept a bunch of its idiotic things that make writing two-line scripts easy but 10,000 line programs hard
1127 2013-03-16 15:21:55 <Ogig> iwilcox, then it wouldn't be that much fun ;) thanks for the input.
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1135 2013-03-16 15:22:52 <iwilcox> Ogig: You're welcome. Stay creative, though.
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1137 2013-03-16 15:23:01 <CodeShark> javascript is also probably one of the most stylistically abused languages
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1142 2013-03-16 15:23:42 <HM2> There's no joy like JS on the frontend, PHP on the backend and HTTP inbetween
1143 2013-03-16 15:23:51 <iwilcox> Threesome!
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1147 2013-03-16 15:24:08 <CodeShark> JS is actually pretty powerful once you start thinking more like a LISP programmer and less like a C programmer :p
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1151 2013-03-16 15:24:32 <HM2> Lisp programmers are overrated
1152 2013-03-16 15:24:32 <lianj> HM2: no joy like or no joy in
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1154 2013-03-16 15:24:37 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
1155 2013-03-16 15:24:46 <CodeShark> it's not about one being rated better than the other, HM2
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1158 2013-03-16 15:25:08 <CodeShark> it's just that javascript's sophisticated features bear little resemblance to C or classical OOLs like C++ and Java other than the superficial syntax
1159 2013-03-16 15:25:28 <iwilcox> Written much LISP then, CodeShark?
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1162 2013-03-16 15:25:34 <CodeShark> no
1163 2013-03-16 15:25:35 <HM2> sorry, i thought you were being a supremacist what with the whole "C programmer", "LISP programmer" tagging
1164 2013-03-16 15:25:35 <CodeShark> lol
1165 2013-03-16 15:25:50 <CodeShark> I'm much more at home in the "classical" OOP world, iwilcox
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1168 2013-03-16 15:26:17 <iwilcox> Me too, just that that old article by Paul Graham on "The LISP Advantage" has me interested.
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1171 2013-03-16 15:26:52 <HM2> anyone would think you can't do functional programming in C++
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1173 2013-03-16 15:27:02 <HM2> I hate a friend who keeps banging on about map and reduce
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1178 2013-03-16 15:27:20 <HM2> it's not like they are alien concepts in C++, they're std algorithms
1179 2013-03-16 15:27:24 <iwilcox> Hate, have, or both, HM2?
1180 2013-03-16 15:27:38 <HM2> lol, good typo
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1183 2013-03-16 15:28:17 <iwilcox> I'd recommend a read of http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html if/when you have time, HM2. Has me intrigued.
1184 2013-03-16 15:28:25 <HM2> i've read it
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1194 2013-03-16 15:30:31 <iwilcox> It's the bit on macros that gets me.
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1198 2013-03-16 15:31:15 <CodeShark> I'm certainly NOT a LISP supremacist, HM2 :p
1199 2013-03-16 15:31:19 <iwilcox> 25% of some bit of software using a feature I've never even learned about seems interesting.
1200 2013-03-16 15:31:27 <CodeShark> I suck at LISP, actually
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1203 2013-03-16 15:31:34 <lianj> just sad that lots learned from lisp can't be used in other langs
1204 2013-03-16 15:31:45 <HM2> iwilcox: yeah everyone bangs on about the power of lisp macros. but go find 5 practical examples of where they make your code more coherent and understandable
1205 2013-03-16 15:32:01 <HM2> (or more performant, for that matter)
1206 2013-03-16 15:32:15 <iwilcox> I doubt anyone uses Lisp where performance matters.
1207 2013-03-16 15:32:16 normanrichards has joined
1208 2013-03-16 15:32:43 <iwilcox> I guess if you use them every day they become more readable and expressive and practically useful.
1209 2013-03-16 15:33:18 <CodeShark> it's easier to write code than to read it - and I think that applies even moreso to LISP than other languages :p
1210 2013-03-16 15:33:41 <sipa> afk
1211 2013-03-16 15:33:59 <rebroad> has bitcoind been modified now so that mining stops if a block can't be processed but isn't invalid?
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1214 2013-03-16 15:34:20 <CodeShark> if it can't be processed how can you tell it's valid?
1215 2013-03-16 15:34:43 <rebroad> has bitcoind been modified now so that mining stops if a block can't be processed?
1216 2013-03-16 15:35:01 <rebroad> (even if it might be valid)
1217 2013-03-16 15:35:26 <rebroad> if it did this, the hard fork wouldn't have happened...
1218 2013-03-16 15:35:48 <CodeShark> if it did that it would be possible to do denial of service attacks on miners
1219 2013-03-16 15:36:07 <rebroad> that'd be better than a hard fork
1220 2013-03-16 15:36:18 <CodeShark> erm, it wouldn't stop a fork
1221 2013-03-16 15:36:33 <rebroad> it would stop the sort that happened a few days ago
1222 2013-03-16 15:37:23 <rebroad> bitcoind shouldn't REJECT a block that's valid.. if it continues mining on a block previous to a valid block, it's effectively REJECTING that block
1223 2013-03-16 15:37:23 Ogig has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1224 2013-03-16 15:37:50 <rebroad> it's better if it stops awaiting operator intervention
1225 2013-03-16 15:38:13 <CodeShark> are you asking whether database exceptions should cause the miner to alert the user and stop mining? I would tend to agree
1226 2013-03-16 15:38:20 <rebroad> at least, if you prefer less forks...
1227 2013-03-16 15:38:21 <iwilcox> A distributed, heterogenous system is allowed to vary in opinion on what's valid. That's a good and a bad thing.
1228 2013-03-16 15:38:47 <rebroad> CodeShark, ah, ok. so it seems we agree..
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1232 2013-03-16 15:38:56 <CodeShark> it depends on the type of error
1233 2013-03-16 15:39:07 <rebroad> iwilcox, I agree
1234 2013-03-16 15:39:34 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1235 2013-03-16 15:39:51 <HM2> I've been thinking quite a bit about Bitcoin forks atm
1236 2013-03-16 15:39:54 <CodeShark> in any case, the fundamental problem was not that bitcoind didn't stop mining - but that the database had a limit that was overlooked
1237 2013-03-16 15:40:07 <rebroad> so... has this change been done, or are we at risk of more hardforks when database exceptions occur?
1238 2013-03-16 15:40:48 <rebroad> CodeShark, what do you suggest as a solution to that?
1239 2013-03-16 15:40:52 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1240 2013-03-16 15:41:45 <iwilcox> Fix the newer version to not feed oversize blocks to old clients?
1241 2013-03-16 15:41:55 <iwilcox> s/clients/peers/
1242 2013-03-16 15:42:03 <iwilcox> Just guessing. Dunno what the actual plan is.
1243 2013-03-16 15:42:04 <CodeShark> short-term, yes, iwilcox
1244 2013-03-16 15:42:11 <lianj> CodeShark: if it did then the .8 chain had won and every version below .8 would be usable since then
1245 2013-03-16 15:42:22 <CodeShark> long-term, make sure a supermajority of enduser/merchant nodes have upgraded to a version that is more permissive or has higher limits before pushing the version out to miners
1246 2013-03-16 15:42:23 <rebroad> iwilcox, huh? How will that stop a fork?
1247 2013-03-16 15:42:24 <lianj> s/version/installed version/
1248 2013-03-16 15:42:42 <CodeShark> test more restrictive rules on miner nodes, more permissive ones on merchant/enduser nodes
1249 2013-03-16 15:42:52 <iwilcox> rebroad: You can't outright prevent a fork. It's the nature of the network that it's allowed to fork.
1250 2013-03-16 15:43:02 <rebroad> iwilcox, I know
1251 2013-03-16 15:43:13 <rebroad> iwilcox, but you can code to reduce their likeliness
1252 2013-03-16 15:43:41 <rebroad> my suggestion does that
1253 2013-03-16 15:43:41 <CodeShark> also, cross-verify blocks on multiple versions
1254 2013-03-16 15:44:02 <rebroad> CodeShark, cross-verify...?
1255 2013-03-16 15:44:18 <rebroad> ah.. I get it.. nice idea..
1256 2013-03-16 15:44:22 <gmaxwell> rebroad: what does "can't process" even mean?
1257 2013-03-16 15:44:24 <CodeShark> well, make sure the block is valid on multiple versions before trying to mine it
1258 2013-03-16 15:44:31 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: eligius does this already.
1259 2013-03-16 15:44:34 Ogig has joined
1260 2013-03-16 15:44:40 <CodeShark> yes, I know, gmaxwell
1261 2013-03-16 15:44:44 <rebroad> gmaxwell, it means unable to complete the necessary checks..
1262 2013-03-16 15:44:52 <CodeShark> I seem to be one of the only people here who really takes his idea seriously :p
1263 2013-03-16 15:45:19 <gmaxwell> rebroad: how do you distinguish unable to complete from failed? and if you canâ why not just fix it so it is able?
1264 2013-03-16 15:45:27 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr and I had been talking about it well before the fork
1265 2013-03-16 15:45:48 <rebroad> gmaxwell, they are the same thing in my semantics... only reject a block if it's invalid.
1266 2013-03-16 15:45:55 <rebroad> gmaxwell, depends what you mean by failed
1267 2013-03-16 15:46:04 <rebroad> gmaxwell, failed the test or failed to complete the test?
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1269 2013-03-16 15:46:57 <rebroad> if it fails the test it's invalid, if it fails to complete the test, it's unable to be processed and no further mining should occur
1270 2013-03-16 15:47:33 <iwilcox> But that comes back to CodeShark's DoS point.
1271 2013-03-16 15:47:40 <rebroad> I understand what I'm saying, but you do often seem to have trouble understanding me I'm saddened to observe, gmaxwell
1272 2013-03-16 15:48:23 <rebroad> (or I have trouble being understood by you)
1273 2013-03-16 15:48:52 chmod755 has quit (Quit: chmod755)
1274 2013-03-16 15:49:46 * rebroad is doing a 7 day detox at present which seems to be affecting his diplomacy skills...!
1275 2013-03-16 15:49:49 <CodeShark> database exceptions should be better handled - but whether or not to stop mining should depend on the type of error
1276 2013-03-16 15:50:13 <rebroad> CodeShark, of course...
1277 2013-03-16 15:50:27 <Luke-Jr> rebroad: are you familiar with BIP 23 Proposals?
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1279 2013-03-16 15:50:48 <iwilcox> You can't tell whether you're in the wrong being unable to parse the block or they're in the wrong for sending you a bullshit bloc.
1280 2013-03-16 15:50:51 <iwilcox> +k
1281 2013-03-16 15:50:52 <rebroad> but I still maintain that a mining node certainly shouldn't mine on the non-latest block unless it's SURE it was invalid..
1282 2013-03-16 15:51:08 <rebroad> Luke-Jr, no... I'll have a look.. thanks.
1283 2013-03-16 15:51:12 <HM2> If there was a deliberate 50/50 hard fork it's likely atm that the majority of bitcoin businesses would side with the chain picked by the developers here
1284 2013-03-16 15:51:50 <Luke-Jr> HM2: I disagree. Everyone would side with MtGox.
1285 2013-03-16 15:51:57 <HM2> True
1286 2013-03-16 15:52:11 <HM2> Do MtGox develop their own bitcoin software, or just exchange though?
1287 2013-03-16 15:52:21 <RBecker> they're just an exchange
1288 2013-03-16 15:52:27 <Luke-Jr> HM2: custom
1289 2013-03-16 15:52:35 <Luke-Jr> HM2: not public code tho
1290 2013-03-16 15:52:42 <HM2> Damn, shame
1291 2013-03-16 15:52:46 <iwilcox> Written in Brainfuck
1292 2013-03-16 15:53:14 <CodeShark> they have their own validation engine?
1293 2013-03-16 15:53:16 <CodeShark> doubtful
1294 2013-03-16 15:53:32 <rebroad> iwilcox, hmmmm..
1295 2013-03-16 15:53:41 <rebroad> iwilcox, what do you mean by parse?
1296 2013-03-16 15:53:45 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: no doubt it's based on QBitcoin Core
1297 2013-03-16 15:54:00 <rebroad> iwilcox, if it's obviously junk it's invalid... I'm talking about errors such as errors in the processing of it.
1298 2013-03-16 15:54:19 <rebroad> iwilcox, I know those sound very similar to each other..
1299 2013-03-16 15:54:29 <iwilcox> No, I get that.
1300 2013-03-16 15:54:33 <rebroad> iwilcox, but I don't think they are.
1301 2013-03-16 15:54:42 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: you're newer here, but MagicalTux was a pretty active developer before getting tied up with MtGox work
1302 2013-03-16 15:55:24 <rebroad> Luke-Jr, I thought about that (the siding with mtgox).. I don't agree though...
1303 2013-03-16 15:55:35 <rebroad> or rather - it depends..
1304 2013-03-16 15:56:01 <HM2> Well someone once said MtGox own the trademark "Bitcoin"
1305 2013-03-16 15:56:18 <rebroad> mtgox should go into safe mode (I expect) if there's a longer fork than the one they're following..
1306 2013-03-16 15:56:20 <iwilcox> I think they pursued trademarking in countries where it wasn't yet.
1307 2013-03-16 15:56:26 <Luke-Jr> MagicalTux: btw, have you given any though to the immediate need of a hardfork yet?
1308 2013-03-16 15:56:35 <rebroad> so they'd shut down their exchange... people siding with mtgox in that case would be irrelevant..
1309 2013-03-16 15:56:37 <CodeShark> not saying they are incompetent at writing software, Luke-Jr...although it would be nice if they immediately showed me when my deposits are first seen (even if they are not available for trading until 6 confirms) :p
1310 2013-03-16 15:57:06 <iwilcox> The order execution lag is really, really bad.
1311 2013-03-16 15:57:10 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: just saying, MT had his own Bitcoin implementation even before MtGox :P
1312 2013-03-16 15:57:23 <HM2> Bitpay are pretty powerful these days. Seem to be the merchant of choice
1313 2013-03-16 15:57:28 <HM2> payment processor, whatever
1314 2013-03-16 15:57:39 <Luke-Jr> HM2: yes, but I bet they use MtGox :p
1315 2013-03-16 15:57:55 <rebroad> I think bitcoind also needs to enter a safer-mode if it sees another chain catching up with the current one...
1316 2013-03-16 15:58:59 <HM2> rebroad: i floated the same idea more or less
1317 2013-03-16 15:59:23 moore_ has joined
1318 2013-03-16 15:59:27 <HM2> as i'm sure others have
1319 2013-03-16 15:59:28 <rebroad> this would have helped protect okpay from their double-spend
1320 2013-03-16 15:59:47 <rebroad> (depending on the time it occured)
1321 2013-03-16 16:00:59 <iwilcox> OK, all miners that can't judge a block valid on invalid (by their own criteria for valid) stop mining. What next?
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1323 2013-03-16 16:01:16 <iwilcox> s/on/or/
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1326 2013-03-16 16:02:38 <HM2> the overall length from tip->fork point of 2 parallel chains should be considered
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1330 2013-03-16 16:03:04 <rebroad> iwilcox, so it's decided then?!
1331 2013-03-16 16:03:15 <HM2> clearly if you have 2 chains that are of lengths n and n+1 but they share ancestry 50 blocks ago you have a problem
1332 2013-03-16 16:03:27 <MagicalTux> [00:35:00] <Luke-Jr> MagicalTux: btw, have you given any though to the immediate need of a hardfork yet? <- MtGox will side with decisions taken that are confirmed by Gavin, and that makes sense
1333 2013-03-16 16:03:31 <rebroad> HM2, not so
1334 2013-03-16 16:03:39 <iwilcox> rebroad: Heh, no, I'm nobody and that wasn't a decision :)
1335 2013-03-16 16:03:42 <rebroad> n+2 maybe...
1336 2013-03-16 16:04:01 <HM2> you don't think 2 chains that split 50 blocks ago but are the same length is a problem?
1337 2013-03-16 16:04:12 <rebroad> n+1's occur whenever two miners find the same block. one is always orphaned
1338 2013-03-16 16:04:38 <rebroad> ah, you meant "only 50 blocks ago"
1339 2013-03-16 16:05:17 <rebroad> or rather "not until 50 blocks ago"
1340 2013-03-16 16:05:29 <HM2> if people generally wait for 6 confirmations, then any 2 chains that split more than 6 blocks ago are potentially problematic, right?
1341 2013-03-16 16:05:43 <rebroad> I'd say so yes
1342 2013-03-16 16:05:48 <iwilcox> 6 is arbitrary
1343 2013-03-16 16:05:49 <MagicalTux> HM2: our system will stop importing if a fork is too long until one is 6 blocks longer than the other, however if it doesn't happen after more than a defined number of blocks (we set it at 10), the system will fully halt and require someone to check
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1345 2013-03-16 16:06:00 <rebroad> iwilcox, yes.. I agree
1346 2013-03-16 16:06:08 <rebroad> well, minimum of 6 maybe..
1347 2013-03-16 16:06:09 <HM2> iwilcox: not entirely
1348 2013-03-16 16:06:18 <rebroad> max(6, length of longest fork)
1349 2013-03-16 16:06:48 <HM2> MagicalTux: "your system" = ?
1350 2013-03-16 16:06:51 <rebroad> or something like that
1351 2013-03-16 16:06:59 <MagicalTux> HM2: the bitcoin client in use for MtGox
1352 2013-03-16 16:07:05 <HM2> oh cool beans
1353 2013-03-16 16:07:52 <iwilcox> MagicalTux: Sorry if there's a MtGox support I should be asking, but why is order matching so slow, and what's the plan for speeding it up?
1354 2013-03-16 16:08:15 <MagicalTux> iwilcox: are you reffering to the lag we had last week ?
1355 2013-03-16 16:08:20 <MagicalTux> iwilcox: if so, it's been fixed
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1357 2013-03-16 16:08:46 <MagicalTux> (we are still aiming at making the trading engine faster than that, and will be switching to a better engine in a couple of monthsd)
1358 2013-03-16 16:08:48 <iwilcox> I guess I'm referring to anything taking the lag over about 30s on a regular basis.
1359 2013-03-16 16:09:24 <iwilcox> OK, thanks.
1360 2013-03-16 16:09:44 <MagicalTux> there was no increase of lag of more than a couple of seconds since we did some changes last week
1361 2013-03-16 16:10:14 <iwilcox> My bad then. It's something I've been meaning to start charting but haven't, so your more recent numbers are reassuring.
1362 2013-03-16 16:10:44 <HM2> MagicalTux: does your system do best execution?
1363 2013-03-16 16:10:51 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1364 2013-03-16 16:10:52 <HM2> (i've never actually traded at mtgox)
1365 2013-03-16 16:11:22 <rebroad> ahem... OT #mtgox for mtgox specific chat...?
1366 2013-03-16 16:11:38 <HM2> lol sorry
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1370 2013-03-16 16:16:03 <rebroad> Luke-Jr, I looked at BIP23.. is it related to my suggestion to help reduce hard forks?
1371 2013-03-16 16:16:31 Bohren has joined
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1373 2013-03-16 16:16:54 <Luke-Jr> rebroad: the Block Proposals part
1374 2013-03-16 16:17:28 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: may I suggest adding to the motivations of BIP0023 the ability to detect early rule discrepancies between different versions?
1375 2013-03-16 16:18:28 <CodeShark> it helps not only in the case of malicious entities trying to control too much of the network - but also in the case of stupid bugs :p
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1378 2013-03-16 16:19:45 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: feel free
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1380 2013-03-16 16:22:18 <CodeShark> if you ever needed the political capital to push this proposal forward, Luke-Jr, I think the march 11 event just gave it to you :)
1381 2013-03-16 16:22:23 <[Tycho]> Hmm, sometimes I notice "In queue" status for tens of seconds.
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1386 2013-03-16 16:23:34 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: unless Gavin ends up reimbursing pools that lost blocks in the fork XD
1387 2013-03-16 16:24:10 <Luke-Jr> [Tycho]: what's in queue?
1388 2013-03-16 16:24:54 <[Tycho]> Luke-Jr: that's about MtGox delay.
1389 2013-03-16 16:25:47 <ProfMac> MagicalTux, do you roll your own matching engine?
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1401 2013-03-16 16:44:01 <VoteGoat> What are you guys thoughts on the twitter bitcoin tipper?
1402 2013-03-16 16:45:24 <aethero> Excellent idea they got from me.
1403 2013-03-16 16:45:32 <aethero> ;-)
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1405 2013-03-16 16:45:52 <VoteGoat> lol
1406 2013-03-16 16:46:12 <VoteGoat> What do you think about their charge of 1%?
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1408 2013-03-16 16:47:06 <aethero> Good idea.
1409 2013-03-16 16:47:45 <warren> good luck anyone using it
1410 2013-03-16 16:48:19 <VoteGoat> why do you say that?
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1419 2013-03-16 17:07:38 <rebroad> Do miners currently build upon blocks which have ignored all transactions?
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1429 2013-03-16 17:14:34 <sturles> Yes.
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1469 2013-03-16 18:26:13 <Ant0> hello
1470 2013-03-16 18:26:44 <Happzz> [17:48] <+MagicalTux> there was no increase of lag of more than a couple of seconds since we did some changes last week
1471 2013-03-16 18:26:46 <Happzz> ;;goxlag
1472 2013-03-16 18:26:47 <gribble> 0 seconds
1473 2013-03-16 18:26:57 <Happzz> was 100 secs just a moment ago
1474 2013-03-16 18:27:13 <Ant0> I couldnt confirm this for sure right now... but I was getting on the blockchain iphone app about 0,087Xxxxx bitcoin. I have restarted now and it shows, 0,07XXXXX and the received small payment seems to be missing :S im going to update the bitcoin app to confirm
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1476 2013-03-16 18:27:32 <Ant0> the missing payment had about 9 confirmations or so
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1494 2013-03-16 18:49:38 <gmaxwell> rebroad: what I was trying to say earlier before I had to run was that the system should only consists of test which cannot fail to completeâ tests should return pass or fail and thats it. If you figure out one that could fail to complete you should fix so that it can't, not craft a response to that case.
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1503 2013-03-16 18:56:26 <amiller> is there something like a tutorial on making a bot/program/script that accepts bitcoins and does something
1504 2013-03-16 18:56:35 <amiller> like setting up a shopping cart script is closely related i guess
1505 2013-03-16 18:56:53 valparaiso has joined
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1507 2013-03-16 18:57:07 <amiller> ah i found a merchant howto on the wiki
1508 2013-03-16 18:57:38 <vellest> amiller: hey, if you find that, please share!
1509 2013-03-16 18:57:50 <amiller> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Merchant_Howto#Automated
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1512 2013-03-16 18:58:35 <vellest> amiller: nah⦠I've seen this already, I need something a bit more friendly, sort a step-by-step, my code is not strong
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1514 2013-03-16 19:00:54 <amiller> agreed... a step by step tutorial would be what i'd want
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1579 2013-03-16 20:21:13 <gavinandresen> tcatm BlueMatt : can one of you kick the code that copies to bitcoin.github.com ? I just committed a change that I need to go to bitcoin.org
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1582 2013-03-16 20:24:25 <etotheipi_> continuing the conversation from the other day about cleaning up dust: would it be reasonable for miners to do a "negative fee", where transactions that reduce the UTXO set substantially, the miner can add that source as an extra 0.005 BTC output of the coinbase transaction... or something like that?
1583 2013-03-16 20:25:15 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: interesting idea! Yeah, that would work.
1584 2013-03-16 20:25:25 <etotheipi_> it would really just be a merging of the two ideas talked about already: adjusting the fees for long term benefit
1585 2013-03-16 20:26:03 <iwilcox> Don't we then end up with >21M BTC?
1586 2013-03-16 20:26:16 <gavinandresen> no
1587 2013-03-16 20:26:25 <etotheipi_> iwilcox: no, the miner would be paying the person out of the generation they would otherwise receive
1588 2013-03-16 20:26:35 <etotheipi_> so the miner only gets 24.995
1589 2013-03-16 20:26:45 BTC_Bear is now known as hbrntng!~BTC_Bear@unaffiliated/btc-bear/x-5233302|BTC_Bear
1590 2013-03-16 20:26:47 <gavinandresen> it requires generous or public-spiritied miners
1591 2013-03-16 20:26:53 <etotheipi_> it wouldn't be a network rule... it would be up to the miner to decide if that's worth it, or how to calibrate it
1592 2013-03-16 20:26:55 <iwilcox> Ah.
1593 2013-03-16 20:27:50 <etotheipi_> is it "generous"? you're just extending the getFee(tx) function into the negative range, too
1594 2013-03-16 20:28:00 Freemanix has joined
1595 2013-03-16 20:28:05 <etotheipi_> and apps/wallets could add that possibility to their optimization
1596 2013-03-16 20:28:13 qbasicer has joined
1597 2013-03-16 20:28:45 <etotheipi_> or rather, it could be viewed as a continuous function... just with a wider range than we have now
1598 2013-03-16 20:28:51 <gavinandresen> a self-interested miner will keep all the fees/subsidy they can. Why would they do anything else?
1599 2013-03-16 20:29:05 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: because they want people to clean up UTXOs
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1601 2013-03-16 20:29:21 <etotheipi_> and the users/wallets won't do it without incentive
1602 2013-03-16 20:29:30 <etotheipi_> that makes all these "uneconomical" outputs, economical
1603 2013-03-16 20:29:39 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: mmm. that is the public-spirited part. Cleaning up UTXO benefits everybodyâ¦
1604 2013-03-16 20:30:14 <gavinandresen> ⦠but a purely short-term-self-interested miner can defect and just take all the fees/subsidy.
1605 2013-03-16 20:31:05 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: sure... game theory suggests "I don't need to do this, someone else will"
1606 2013-03-16 20:31:11 <gavinandresen> right
1607 2013-03-16 20:31:28 <jrmithdobbs> etotheipi_: i think you underestimate how popular a patched version of any wallet software that removed that logic is going to be with certain people :(
1608 2013-03-16 20:31:56 <etotheipi_> jrmithdobbs: this is just a thought experiment
1609 2013-03-16 20:32:12 <etotheipi_> I didn't intend it to be forced on miners... but that some miners might consider it because they're "generous"
1610 2013-03-16 20:32:24 <etotheipi_> and it benefits themselves (even if it also benefits everyone else)
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1613 2013-03-16 20:33:24 <gavinandresen> I like it as an idea⦠I might even like it enough to write code to implement it.
1614 2013-03-16 20:33:45 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: cool
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1616 2013-03-16 20:33:52 <etotheipi_> although I just thought of one "problem"
1617 2013-03-16 20:34:01 <gavinandresen> I can imagine mining pools running it and advertising "We give 1% of fees back to the network to clean it up...."
1618 2013-03-16 20:34:04 <etotheipi_> random person using a wallet, new to bitcoin
1619 2013-03-16 20:34:15 <etotheipi_> sends a transaction, and suddenly they receive a small payment
1620 2013-03-16 20:34:23 <etotheipi_> I guess the apps can be designed to recognize it and explain it
1621 2013-03-16 20:34:41 <etotheipi_> thought it might be difficult to deconflict from a P2Pool tx, or something else non-standard
1622 2013-03-16 20:34:50 <gavinandresen> oh, we can't roll out that feature before dust outputs are non-standard, or we'll just have people creating dust on purpose to try to get the reward
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1624 2013-03-16 20:35:09 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: I still think there's fee policies that would avoid that cobra effect
1625 2013-03-16 20:35:13 <etotheipi_> I just haven't done the calculation yet
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1633 2013-03-16 20:45:10 <gavinandresen> Version 0.8.1 pull request; it won't be pulled into git HEAD, will be pulled onto a separate branch. But done as a pull request for review: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2373
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1636 2013-03-16 20:47:55 <denisx> gavinandresen: but if someone creates a block with 4501 txs all 0.8.1 clients are out and 0.7 still handles that?
1637 2013-03-16 20:48:44 <gmaxwell> denisx: it's fine to _add_ restrictions, so long as a majority of hashpower agrees with them. (called a soft forking change)
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1639 2013-03-16 20:49:16 <denisx> gmaxwell: but what will be the majority in the future?
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1641 2013-03-16 20:49:47 <gavinandresen> we will get a majority of pools to implement the short-term fix.
1642 2013-03-16 20:50:10 <denisx> gavinandresen: ah, ok. that makes sense
1643 2013-03-16 20:50:14 <gavinandresen> we can be pretty sure what the majority is for the next two months
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1651 2013-03-16 20:54:36 <grau> did SD stop dusting or is blockchain.info no longer precise in that ?
1652 2013-03-16 20:54:46 <grau> hi, by the way
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1655 2013-03-16 20:58:16 <gavinandresen> grau: I believe they increased the amount they send back on a losing bet, so they're not creating un-economic outputs.
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1661 2013-03-16 20:59:18 <grau> gavinandresen: I think it is even better than that. They first increased to 0.0005 or so , no I do not see small outputs at all
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1664 2013-03-16 20:59:28 <grau> s/no/now/
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1666 2013-03-16 21:00:31 <gavinandresen> maybe they decided their players trust them enough to know that "no transction back" == lost ⦠I dunno, you could ask them.
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1668 2013-03-16 21:01:59 <grau> do no know Eric in person, but it seems that is the case.
1669 2013-03-16 21:02:41 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: I'm fairly certain that's not true
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1671 2013-03-16 21:02:59 <etotheipi_> it makes it tough to distinguish "delayed payout" vs "loss"
1672 2013-03-16 21:03:32 <grau> There was however a worse dust disperser today 43f6ede123d10fd1581ae5ef2aa6ff7159e61b083934f75126d6d8a2ffdc11cf
1673 2013-03-16 21:03:39 <etotheipi_> it would be totally be anti-Bitcoin, but having those tx propagate but not actually be mined solves all that, though we don't want the network to be used as a messaging system
1674 2013-03-16 21:03:42 <grau> I hope this is not a new beginning
1675 2013-03-16 21:04:36 <grau> 1041 new dust outputs in a single tx
1676 2013-03-16 21:05:01 <etotheipi_> ew, 0.166 split into 1000 UTXOs
1677 2013-03-16 21:05:43 <etotheipi_> perhaps one of the issues is not that "a transaction with dust requires 0.0005 fee", it is "each dust output should add 0.0005 fee"
1678 2013-03-16 21:06:30 <grau> rather a tx with dust output not relayed at all, no matter if it has other outputs.
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1680 2013-03-16 21:07:12 <etotheipi_> grau, I don't think you can really say it shouldn't be relayed... there's still reasons for these transactions to go throuhg... the sender should pay a hefty fee for it, though
1681 2013-03-16 21:08:14 <etotheipi_> it should require spending more per dust output than any dust output could be worth as BTC (but might be worth it as colored coins or something)...
1682 2013-03-16 21:08:23 <grau> Ok, but then make that fee exponential in number of dust output per tx.
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1686 2013-03-16 21:09:13 <lianj> always thought fees only get popular when the reward is way down. sad to see it now already to fight spam. 0.0005 is 2 cents already
1687 2013-03-16 21:09:51 <grau> etotheipi_ : even for colored coins you can scale them that no output is less than dust.
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1689 2013-03-16 21:10:31 <grau> etotheipi_: you could say a ticket is 100000 satoshi and not 1 satoshi
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1713 2013-03-16 21:30:44 <flyingkiwiguy> gavinandresen: are alerts persistent, or only posted in one block?
1714 2013-03-16 21:31:39 <sipa> alerts are independent from blocks or transactions
1715 2013-03-16 21:32:01 <flyingkiwiguy> so they are persistent until cancelled?
1716 2013-03-16 21:32:13 <flyingkiwiguy> or cleared
1717 2013-03-16 21:32:44 <lianj> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#alert see fields
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1719 2013-03-16 21:33:28 <fiesh> hmm, there was this discussion about using GMP recently... any chance this is a good alternative? http://www.ttmath.org
1720 2013-03-16 21:33:31 <fiesh> purely template based
1721 2013-03-16 21:33:44 <fiesh> and boost uses it, so I'd assume it's fairly high quality
1722 2013-03-16 21:33:49 <fiesh> (or rather, boost can use it)
1723 2013-03-16 21:34:12 <flyingkiwiguy> ty lianj, seems they are transient
1724 2013-03-16 21:34:43 <crashoveride4> hey got a ?...I have v0.7.1-beta and my receive coin address's are all gone except for 1...so where did those addy's go?
1725 2013-03-16 21:34:47 <sipa> they have a timeout
1726 2013-03-16 21:34:50 <flyingkiwiguy> one possible issue is that they are in-band signalling
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1732 2013-03-16 21:37:21 <flyingkiwiguy> was there an intentional decision not to use the alert system for Monday's problem?
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1735 2013-03-16 21:38:02 <lianj> flyingkiwiguy: it was used
1736 2013-03-16 21:38:52 debiantoruser has joined
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1738 2013-03-16 21:39:49 <flyingkiwiguy> ok, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alerts needs updating
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1740 2013-03-16 21:41:30 <flyingkiwiguy> anyone have a log of alerts?
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1745 2013-03-16 21:46:38 <Hawkix> why is wallet tied to bitcoind even if that node just acts as transaction network node?
1746 2013-03-16 21:46:49 <Hell304> Is it ok to use the 0.8 client for dealing with bitcoins?
1747 2013-03-16 21:48:22 iwilcox has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1748 2013-03-16 21:48:38 <sipa> Hell304: yes
1749 2013-03-16 21:48:48 <sipa> Hawkix: historic reasons, mistly
1750 2013-03-16 21:48:50 <sipa> mostly
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1756 2013-03-16 21:56:32 <randy-waterhouse> so is there any merit in the idea of making mintxfee a variable that gets set every 2016 (or XXX of blocks) based on calculation of how much demand there is for blockspace during the last period ... average blocksize or something similar?
1757 2013-03-16 21:56:38 <flyingkiwiguy> ty sipa - how does this look - https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alerts_mailing_list
1758 2013-03-16 21:58:02 <gavinandresen> flyingkiwiguy: unless you're running a hacked bitcoind, you won't see all alerts because alerts are version-specific
1759 2013-03-16 21:59:38 <gavinandresen> flyingkiwiguy: hacking bitcoind to show all alerts in getinfo should be pretty easy, though: just make CAlert::AppliesToMe() always return true.
1760 2013-03-16 22:00:04 <Hawkix> With the future ultrapruning nodes, shouldn't be the fee based on the unpruned result, ie. on the storage space benefit/deficit of that transaction? So even big TX which will prune some data will get a "discount" on fee?
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1762 2013-03-16 22:01:12 <gavinandresen> Hawkix: you're going to make me dig up that "curious task" Hayek quote again....
1763 2013-03-16 22:02:09 <randy-waterhouse> gavinandresen: it gives great heart to know that you know quotes of Hayek at all ...
1764 2013-03-16 22:03:35 <randy-waterhouse> so how about closing the loop and letting the market "sort it out" ?
1765 2013-03-16 22:03:36 cads has joined
1766 2013-03-16 22:04:31 <gavinandresen> randy-waterhouse: ?closing the loop? We're in the process of letting the market sort it out. And we'll ALWAYS be in that process...
1767 2013-03-16 22:05:17 <randy-waterhouse> i.e. make mintxfee and paytxfee variables that get fed back into the system ... like difficulty is
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1769 2013-03-16 22:06:37 <gavinandresen> there is no paytxfee on the mining side, as of a couple releases ago. They just sort by fee, and take highest fee-per-kb first.
1770 2013-03-16 22:07:02 <gavinandresen> There is a minfee, and I agree that should go away. "patches welcome"
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1774 2013-03-16 22:08:00 <gavinandresen> Client code needs to catch up, but that will happen: client developers get to compete to give their customers the best user experience with respect to fees. We're all doing a lousy job of that righ tnow.
1775 2013-03-16 22:08:16 <randy-waterhouse> so no philosophical reasons why not ... ? (before spending time on analysis/coding)
1776 2013-03-16 22:08:28 <gavinandresen> why not what?
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1779 2013-03-16 22:08:50 <randy-waterhouse> so is there any merit in the idea of making mintxfee a variable that gets set every 2016 (or XXX of blocks) based on calculation of how much demand there is for blockspace during the last period ... average blocksize or something similar?
1780 2013-03-16 22:09:11 <gavinandresen> mintxfee for miners or clients?
1781 2013-03-16 22:09:43 <gavinandresen> mintxfee for miners is just used so you can't send a 0.0000001 BTC fee and expect to be sorted in with the fee-paying transactions
1782 2013-03-16 22:09:59 <randy-waterhouse> right
1783 2013-03-16 22:10:45 <Hawkix> if the miners choose the fee, there must be some talkback to my client to say me "pay more" if the fee is insufficient, IMHO
1784 2013-03-16 22:11:36 <MJR_> which miner hawkix?
1785 2013-03-16 22:11:49 copumpkin has joined
1786 2013-03-16 22:11:51 <MJR_> everyone gets the transaction
1787 2013-03-16 22:12:48 <egecko> is there an API command to get market depth summary data rather than the actual depth list? in particular i am looking for a count of bidders vs sellers but i don't necessarily care about their actual ask/bid data (asked on #mtgox already, it's kinda dead over there today)
1788 2013-03-16 22:12:48 <sipa> your transaction's effects are not only enforced by miners
1789 2013-03-16 22:13:05 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1790 2013-03-16 22:13:12 <Hawkix> MJR_: that miner who refused to include my TX in block
1791 2013-03-16 22:13:45 * gavinandresen is getting tired of the fee conversation repeating itself....
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1796 2013-03-16 22:17:09 <MJR_> Hawkix: two points...one) most miners will prob run the same settings, so you would get rejects from possibly 1000's of miners rejecting your order two) what do I care if one miner rejects the order UNLESS he is the miner who got the block
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1799 2013-03-16 22:19:32 <Hawkix> MJR_: so how could client hint user the fee .. without knowing the "situation at the market"? The *suggested* fee could be kinda voted consensus of the miners on the network .. automatically determined ..
1800 2013-03-16 22:19:57 <Hawkix> (and apologize all if this was discussed before)
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1802 2013-03-16 22:22:55 <KipIngram> Are there any "installable" pool mining apps for Ubuntu (12.10)? Everything I've found online so far seems to require a complex installation process.
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1824 2013-03-16 22:46:56 <Twixed> Hello
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1832 2013-03-16 23:04:49 <cyphase> is there any thought/work going into using addresses for peer authentication?
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1858 2013-03-16 23:38:06 <ashod> hi anyone got a moment to help me out with some bc programming
1859 2013-03-16 23:39:12 <ashod> ?
1860 2013-03-16 23:39:16 <lianj> just ask
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1862 2013-03-16 23:40:54 <ashod> to send money from servers balance i use sendtoaddress <bitcoinaddress> , and to send from account i use sendfrom , how can i do a send from a specific bitcoin address to a specific bitcoin address,,
1863 2013-03-16 23:41:22 <ashod> e.g send srcbitcointaddress destbitcointaddress amount
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1866 2013-03-16 23:43:27 <ashod> thats my question
1867 2013-03-16 23:43:48 <lianj> now wait until someone answers :)
1868 2013-03-16 23:43:57 <sipa> the coins in the wallet are always shared between everything in the wallet
1869 2013-03-16 23:44:23 <sipa> you can manually construct transactions using the raw transaction interface if you need that level of control
1870 2013-03-16 23:44:55 <ashod> let's say on my server i always getneaddress with account of "" , so there is only one wallet on my server with hundreds of bitcoin addresses
1871 2013-03-16 23:45:10 <ashod> how do i select one of those addresses as the sender, and then specify the destination bircoinaddress
1872 2013-03-16 23:45:17 <sipa> accounts are irrelevant for this, they have nothing to do with coin control
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1874 2013-03-16 23:45:33 <warren> Has -dev always been this far from actual -dev discussion?
1875 2013-03-16 23:45:48 <sipa> as i said: the wallet always uses all coins - if you need more specific control, use the raw transaction interface
1876 2013-03-16 23:46:10 <sipa> warren: it varies :)
1877 2013-03-16 23:46:14 <ashod> ok, saw raw transactions would allow this ?
1878 2013-03-16 23:46:22 <sipa> you can do anything with those
1879 2013-03-16 23:46:31 <sipa> including shooting yourself in the foot
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1881 2013-03-16 23:48:05 HANTI is now known as hanti
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1883 2013-03-16 23:48:23 <rdponticelli> Specially shooting yourself in the foot ;)
1884 2013-03-16 23:48:59 <gaantr2> does anyone here know much about bitcoin-j ? I am trying to get the wallet ECKey address that the coins were received on.
1885 2013-03-16 23:49:27 fishfish has joined
1886 2013-03-16 23:49:30 <MobGod> is there a new release out
1887 2013-03-16 23:49:36 <MobGod> 0.8.1 i heard
1888 2013-03-16 23:49:49 <MobGod> or still working with 0.8
1889 2013-03-16 23:49:49 <sipa> gaantr2: talk to TD, Goonie or BlueMatt i guess
1890 2013-03-16 23:49:55 <sipa> 0.8.1 will be out soon
1891 2013-03-16 23:50:11 <warren> sipa: it'd be great if we could somehow force people to search Google first
1892 2013-03-16 23:50:12 <MobGod> sipa oh still testing
1893 2013-03-16 23:50:14 <gaantr2> thx sipa,
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