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  39 2013-03-18 00:59:34 <groszek> Hi. Does anyone know what "TX rejected (code -22)" means?
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  79 2013-03-18 01:46:19 <montesquieu> This block is going to be big
  80 2013-03-18 01:46:38 <montesquieu> maybe big enough for a fork like last week
  81 2013-03-18 01:49:11 Belkaar_ is now known as Belkaar
  82 2013-03-18 01:49:31 <kaptah> 54kB
  83 2013-03-18 01:49:40 <Line_> =[
  84 2013-03-18 01:51:08 <pizzacat> it had to be way over 500Kb right?
  85 2013-03-18 01:52:08 <pizzacat> then again.. most of the big mining pools are on 0.7.2, or a modified 0.8.0 to be compatible
  86 2013-03-18 01:52:19 <pizzacat> or did i miss something? xD
  87 2013-03-18 01:52:25 <montesquieu> sorry guys, blockchain.info was about 8 blocks behind on their data
  88 2013-03-18 01:52:44 <montesquieu> i was expecting about 1300 txs and over 1000 KB size
  89 2013-03-18 01:53:02 <sipa> "over 1000 KB size" is simply illegal, by any bitcoin version ever
  90 2013-03-18 01:53:11 <montesquieu> sipa: oh?
  91 2013-03-18 01:53:19 <montesquieu> the fork last week was 975 KB
  92 2013-03-18 01:53:28 <sipa> yes
  93 2013-03-18 01:53:54 <gritcoin> Could (hypothetically) the target be made dependent on the # of txs in the block?
  94 2013-03-18 01:53:55 enquirer4 is now known as enquirer
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  97 2013-03-18 01:54:17 <gritcoin> Or is that a massive attack target...
  98 2013-03-18 01:54:33 <doublec> montesquieu: since the fork most pools have gone back to conservative block sizes I think
  99 2013-03-18 01:54:38 <pizzacat> montesquieu, i'm working on a website on this..
 100 2013-03-18 01:54:55 <montesquieu> pizzacat: good
 101 2013-03-18 01:54:59 Nuevoencantabria has joined
 102 2013-03-18 01:55:32 <montesquieu> doublec: when the 'good' chain took back over (higher height) many people may have gone back to 0.8.0
 103 2013-03-18 01:55:51 <pizzacat> montesquieu, it's not completely done (0.8.0 is updating chain and 0.8.1 is being installed), i can pm you link
 104 2013-03-18 01:56:04 <BCB> more asics on 0.8.0
 105 2013-03-18 01:56:08 <montesquieu> pizzacat: sure
 106 2013-03-18 01:56:18 <montesquieu> BCB: thats probably true
 107 2013-03-18 01:56:21 ic3 has quit (Quit: leaving)
 108 2013-03-18 01:56:42 <swhitt> BCB: that could make things interesting, eh?
 109 2013-03-18 01:56:50 <montesquieu> gritcoin: the size over block is correlated to number of txs
 110 2013-03-18 01:57:07 Ant0 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 111 2013-03-18 01:57:26 <BCB> swhitt I think it is true
 112 2013-03-18 01:57:47 <gritcoin> Right; I'm wondering if a block's validity vis a vis the target could be defined so that if a lot of txns were included the target could be higher, meaning the block interval would depend on the txn rate
 113 2013-03-18 01:57:48 <swhitt> montesquieu: the clients all have a hard limit of 1k right now
 114 2013-03-18 01:57:59 <sipa> gritcoin: why would you want that?
 115 2013-03-18 01:58:14 <montesquieu> ok then, if we are limiting block size, then there is a theoretical tx limit as well...
 116 2013-03-18 01:58:27 <swhitt> montesquieu: there was a soft limit of 500k set on all clients but about 2 weeks ago pool operators were told to increase it due to increased #s of txs
 117 2013-03-18 01:58:31 <montesquieu> gritcoin: that's not how the 'difficulty' works
 118 2013-03-18 01:58:40 <swhitt> montesquieu: 0.8 could handle it but 0.7 could not.
 119 2013-03-18 01:58:44 <montesquieu> swhitt: this is my point
 120 2013-03-18 01:58:45 <gritcoin> Or, make it block size. sipa: To limit block size by making target converge to something very high as blocksize approaches limit
 121 2013-03-18 01:59:04 <swhitt> BCB: i think 0.8's default blocksize is still 512k
 122 2013-03-18 01:59:19 <gritcoin> I know that's not how the difficulty works, montesquieu; I'm wondering about the feasibility of such an approach.
 123 2013-03-18 01:59:23 <swhitt> gritcoin: you should read the old debates on bitcointalk
 124 2013-03-18 01:59:25 <montesquieu> swhitt: if bitcoin usage triple over night (lots of adoption) a HUGE number of tx would not be confirmed for a very long time
 125 2013-03-18 01:59:34 <swhitt> PoW/PoS is fun
 126 2013-03-18 01:59:55 <swhitt> montesquieu: that's what tx priority and tx fees are for.
 127 2013-03-18 02:00:05 <swhitt> to mitigate that issue until it needs addressing
 128 2013-03-18 02:00:10 <gmaxwell> swhitt: 250k.
 129 2013-03-18 02:00:25 <swhitt> gmaxwell: sorry. it seems like whenever I talk about the protocol you correct me :)
 130 2013-03-18 02:00:34 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 131 2013-03-18 02:00:39 <sipa> swhitt: technically, you weren't talking about the protocol at all :p
 132 2013-03-18 02:00:46 <sipa> (the protocol allows up to 1000 kB)
 133 2013-03-18 02:00:53 <swhitt> being technically right is the best kind of right
 134 2013-03-18 02:01:01 <gmaxwell> Which was reduced from the prior target of 500k in 0.7.x (though this target required very high fees to hit), so hey, not totally confused.
 135 2013-03-18 02:01:31 <swhitt> between the wiki (which is not always up to date), BCT, talk on here and reading the source I can get confused
 136 2013-03-18 02:01:39 <montesquieu> swhitt: thats surprising to me, if usage triples soon, we could see required tx fees triple as well, in a snap
 137 2013-03-18 02:01:59 <swhitt> montesquieu: stilll that'd only be 0.0015 btc
 138 2013-03-18 02:01:59 <montesquieu> until btc tx fees compare to fiat
 139 2013-03-18 02:02:07 spilk has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 140 2013-03-18 02:02:19 <swhitt> unless you have aged coin
 141 2013-03-18 02:02:28 <swhitt> then the required fee disappears
 142 2013-03-18 02:02:42 <swhitt> although I've had difficulty finding the exact calculation the current clients use for priority
 143 2013-03-18 02:02:57 <swhitt> and figuring out which mining pools respect those rules vs have their own is difficult too
 144 2013-03-18 02:04:03 <doublec> swhitt: there's a thread on bitcointalk that the pools are using to outline their fee/blocksize/etc structure
 145 2013-03-18 02:04:19 <keystroke> how is 0.8.1?
 146 2013-03-18 02:04:21 <montesquieu> swhitt: and when *everyone* is sending 0.0015 btc fees (because thats what it takes to get through) we could see a serious jump
 147 2013-03-18 02:04:32 <swhitt> doublec: any chance you can link me? I can dig through the search results but it's somewhat painful.
 148 2013-03-18 02:04:36 <doublec> swhitt: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=151387.0
 149 2013-03-18 02:04:43 <swhitt> doublec: beat me to it, thanks
 150 2013-03-18 02:05:03 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 151 2013-03-18 02:05:05 <doublec> swhitt: it's currently stalled due to the blockfork situation but once miners have updated they'll repost what they're setting I think
 152 2013-03-18 02:05:24 <swhitt> hopefully pools will update to reasonable settings that prevent forkage in the meantime?
 153 2013-03-18 02:05:33 <Graet> they did
 154 2013-03-18 02:05:38 <gavinandresen> keystroke: 0.8.1 is ready: https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.1/
 155 2013-03-18 02:05:40 hydrogenesis has joined
 156 2013-03-18 02:05:40 <Graet> or it would have happened again :)
 157 2013-03-18 02:05:43 TheButterZone has left ()
 158 2013-03-18 02:05:51 <keystroke> awesome, thanks gavin :)
 159 2013-03-18 02:05:53 <swhitt> Graet: weren't they just reverting to 0.7 defaults?
 160 2013-03-18 02:06:00 <gavinandresen> keystroke: 0.8.1 will be officially announced tomorrow
 161 2013-03-18 02:06:10 <keystroke> is there a changelog?
 162 2013-03-18 02:06:18 <doublec> swhitt: that strikes me as being a reasonable setting
 163 2013-03-18 02:06:22 <Graet> pools reverted to sane settings
 164 2013-03-18 02:06:38 <swhitt> that depends on one's definition of 'sane'
 165 2013-03-18 02:06:39 <Graet> awaiting 0.8.1 so we can get past this :)
 166 2013-03-18 02:06:43 <keystroke> gpg: Good signature from "Gavin Andresen (CODE SIGNING KEY) <gavinandresen@gmail.com>"
 167 2013-03-18 02:06:46 <gavinandresen> keystroke: see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits/master for the 3 commits that are the difference from 0.8.0
 168 2013-03-18 02:07:21 <gavinandresen> keystroke: bah, wrong url
 169 2013-03-18 02:07:28 <Graet> sane enough not to have had another fork swhitt ?
 170 2013-03-18 02:07:40 <gavinandresen> keystroke: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits/0.8.1
 171 2013-03-18 02:08:08 <gavinandresen> (that's why I'm not going to Officially Announce it tonight, too late, I'll make dumb mistakes....)
 172 2013-03-18 02:08:11 <swhitt> any reason the packages aren't posted on github instead of sourceforge?
 173 2013-03-18 02:08:22 <keystroke> thanks, just installed it :)
 174 2013-03-18 02:08:25 <gavinandresen> swhitt: github doesn't allow big binaries
 175 2013-03-18 02:08:27 BenderCoin has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 176 2013-03-18 02:08:52 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: anything in v0.8.1 branch that also belongs in HEAD?
 177 2013-03-18 02:09:01 <sipa> Graet: so, technically 0.8.1 does a soft fork on thursday, as it makes the rules slightly stronger compared to 0.7
 178 2013-03-18 02:09:04 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: HEAD should not fall behind
 179 2013-03-18 02:09:15 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: yes, but we should fix pull-tester first or we'll get lots of failed pull spam
 180 2013-03-18 02:09:18 <swhitt> gavinandresen: the README says 2012 still
 181 2013-03-18 02:09:31 <jgarzik> ugh
 182 2013-03-18 02:09:32 <phantomcircuit> it's not 2012 still?
 183 2013-03-18 02:09:34 * phantomcircuit checks calendar
 184 2013-03-18 02:09:41 <keystroke> so people have 2 months to upgrade?
 185 2013-03-18 02:09:55 <sipa> Graet: initially the plan was to enforce the new temporary ("like 0.7") rule to take effect immediately, but that effectively holds another fork risk if no majority of hash power enforces it
 186 2013-03-18 02:09:56 <swhitt> i thought github allowed larger downloads to be posted on their downloads tab
 187 2013-03-18 02:09:57 <gavinandresen> upgrade or add a DB_CONFIG file to their datadir, yes
 188 2013-03-18 02:10:07 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I think the other way around is more likely to result in rapid pull-tester fixes ;p
 189 2013-03-18 02:10:16 <gavinandresen> keystroke: oh, and it is 4 commits, not 3 ....
 190 2013-03-18 02:10:27 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: (a) upgrade, (b) patch or (c) DB_CONFIG, you mean?
 191 2013-03-18 02:10:28 B0g4r7 has joined
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 193 2013-03-18 02:10:37 <Graet> yep cool sipa , looking forward to the upgrade :)
 194 2013-03-18 02:10:40 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: yes, upgrade patch or DB_CONFIG
 195 2013-03-18 02:11:46 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I'm mining on HEAD, so having orphan-inducing code on a branch > pull tester
 196 2013-03-18 02:11:46 <jgarzik> IMO
 197 2013-03-18 02:12:10 <phantomcircuit> so people still using bdb should add the configuration file to increase the lock count?
 198 2013-03-18 02:12:15 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: agreed, we need to pull into HEAD before thursday.
 199 2013-03-18 02:12:16 <swhitt> jgarzik: how many blocks/day are you pulling now?
 200 2013-03-18 02:12:18 Guest85316 is now known as Rebroad
 201 2013-03-18 02:12:18 <sipa> phantomcircuit: indeed
 202 2013-03-18 02:12:19 <jgarzik> plus, there are several good reasons why you want to do "upstream first" (HEAD first) for any bug fixes
 203 2013-03-18 02:12:29 <jgarzik> swhitt: Four blocks in past 3 days
 204 2013-03-18 02:12:31 <jgarzik> <grin>
 205 2013-03-18 02:12:35 <Rebroad> was the block that caused the fork created intentionally to cause the fork?
 206 2013-03-18 02:12:35 <jgarzik> far above average, I grant
 207 2013-03-18 02:12:39 <swhitt> jgarzik: you lucky bastard
 208 2013-03-18 02:12:43 <sipa> Rebroad: no
 209 2013-03-18 02:12:47 <CodeShark> Rebroad: unlikely
 210 2013-03-18 02:13:10 <sipa> given that the pool that created it switched back to old rules afterwards
 211 2013-03-18 02:13:19 <Rebroad> ah, thanks, just asking as someone on bitcointalk said it was.
 212 2013-03-18 02:13:24 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I could cherry-pick into head right now...
 213 2013-03-18 02:13:33 <sipa> gavinandresen: ACK
 214 2013-03-18 02:13:37 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ACK
 215 2013-03-18 02:14:01 <Rebroad> are there any plans to make the client warn (or go into safe mode) if it's seen that another chain is catching up with the one currently in use?
 216 2013-03-18 02:14:34 <CodeShark> or growing at all, Rebroad :)
 217 2013-03-18 02:14:39 <CodeShark> doesn't have to be catching up
 218 2013-03-18 02:14:41 <Rebroad> CodeShark, indeed..
 219 2013-03-18 02:14:59 hydrogenesis has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
 220 2013-03-18 02:15:05 <gavinandresen> jgarzik sipa : ok, quick make test and then I'll push....
 221 2013-03-18 02:15:10 <Rebroad> I'd love to see a nice GUI to the block situation, perhaps along the lines of the graphics in "world of goo"!
 222 2013-03-18 02:15:20 <sipa> Rebroad: feel free to write that :)
 223 2013-03-18 02:15:23 <pizzacat> btc.pizzacat.net
 224 2013-03-18 02:15:29 <pizzacat> http://btc.pizzacat.net
 225 2013-03-18 02:15:35 <pizzacat> xD
 226 2013-03-18 02:15:48 <pizzacat> almost on track
 227 2013-03-18 02:16:00 <RoboTeddy> Rebroad: here's another GUI that shows forks: http://blockchain.info/orphaned-blocks
 228 2013-03-18 02:16:06 <swhitt> what is this for pizzacat?
 229 2013-03-18 02:16:14 <keystroke> so 0.8.1 is a hard fork?
 230 2013-03-18 02:16:36 <sipa> keystroke: 0.8.1 will cause a hard fork after may 15th
 231 2013-03-18 02:16:54 <swhitt> isn't deepbit still running 0.3 or something
 232 2013-03-18 02:16:57 <keystroke> awesome :)
 233 2013-03-18 02:16:57 <sipa> yes
 234 2013-03-18 02:17:05 <pizzacat> swhitt, pure fun and learning from my point of view
 235 2013-03-18 02:17:15 <Rebroad> is it a backwards compatible hardfork?
 236 2013-03-18 02:17:41 <keystroke> a hardfork by definition can't be backwards compatible
 237 2013-03-18 02:17:49 <doublec> deepbit are still mining version 1 blocks. where 13% away from a supermajority there so they have to update their blocks before then don't they?
 238 2013-03-18 02:17:54 <doublec> s/where/we're/
 239 2013-03-18 02:18:05 <Rebroad> why are deepbit still on version 1?
 240 2013-03-18 02:18:13 <doublec> old bitcoind
 241 2013-03-18 02:18:22 <sipa> 0.3.19 or so
 242 2013-03-18 02:18:26 <Rebroad> why don't they update it?
 243 2013-03-18 02:18:27 <sipa> ancient
 244 2013-03-18 02:18:33 <gavinandresen> heavily patched
 245 2013-03-18 02:18:34 <doublec> Rebroad: lots of custom patches
 246 2013-03-18 02:18:44 <Rebroad> erk...
 247 2013-03-18 02:18:46 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 248 2013-03-18 02:18:50 <Rebroad> poor deepbit..
 249 2013-03-18 02:18:59 bernard75 has quit ()
 250 2013-03-18 02:19:00 sanchaz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 251 2013-03-18 02:19:00 <gavinandresen> happily, the 0.8.1 patch should apply cleanly.
 252 2013-03-18 02:19:02 <doublec> I only have minor patches and upgrading is sometimes painful so I can understand their reluctance
 253 2013-03-18 02:19:27 <doublec> having left it so long it'll be extremely painful for them
 254 2013-03-18 02:19:29 <gwillen> gavinandresen: oh dear; is the code with the may 15 drop-dead date already released? It seems it would be good to actually test the clean application of the patch.
 255 2013-03-18 02:20:03 <Rebroad> could the code that deals with block validation be moved in such a way that the changes that cause hard forks are easier to debase into the code for miners who have made customisations?
 256 2013-03-18 02:20:12 <Rebroad> *rebase
 257 2013-03-18 02:20:27 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 258 2013-03-18 02:20:31 <sipa> due to the current organisation of the code, that's very hard
 259 2013-03-18 02:20:47 <keystroke> how does the  May 8th alert never expire?
 260 2013-03-18 02:20:56 <sipa> block and transaction verification is done in several mostly-independent stages (and it should, for DoS protection)
 261 2013-03-18 02:20:59 <keystroke> will this always be xmitted by nodes around the network?
 262 2013-03-18 02:21:05 Nuevoencantabria has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 263 2013-03-18 02:21:07 <sipa> and they all verify parts of the rules
 264 2013-03-18 02:21:12 <Rebroad> I think it's worth reorganisting the code to make it easier for miners to make these customisations and also do the hardforks needed so they're less reluctant to upgrade their daemons
 265 2013-03-18 02:22:32 <Rebroad> I'd like to work on an alternative bitcoin-qt, but I'm aware that regarding the upgrade alerts I'd need to change the mechanism for this. luke-jr suggested that polling a website instead of using "alert" would be better, but if that is the case, why isn't the original bitcoin-qt doing this then?
 266 2013-03-18 02:22:43 ForceMajeure has joined
 267 2013-03-18 02:23:00 <sipa> Rebroad: it's a core principle not to rely on centralized services
 268 2013-03-18 02:23:14 <doublec> if the website gets dos'd, no alerts
 269 2013-03-18 02:23:19 <Rebroad> sipa, I know, which is why I think it's worth doing..
 270 2013-03-18 02:23:26 <sipa> worth doing what?
 271 2013-03-18 02:23:52 stretchwarren has joined
 272 2013-03-18 02:23:58 andrew12- has joined
 273 2013-03-18 02:24:15 <Rebroad> sipa, plus I'm also frustrated at all the features I've been wanting to see added that aren't being... I improved block downloading months ago, but the code has never been included...  I'd like to at least give people an option to use a version that downloads the blockchain quicker.
 274 2013-03-18 02:24:38 techlife has joined
 275 2013-03-18 02:24:41 <Rebroad> sipa, creating another bitcoin-qt variant.
 276 2013-03-18 02:24:48 <sipa> Rebroad: then fix it, instead of hacking some rules that just help in your case
 277 2013-03-18 02:24:51 RBecker is now known as rbecker
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 279 2013-03-18 02:25:06 <sipa> there's no doubt the download mechanism can be better
 280 2013-03-18 02:25:07 <Rebroad> sipa, fix what?
 281 2013-03-18 02:25:18 <jgarzik> Rebroad: peer selection
 282 2013-03-18 02:25:20 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
 283 2013-03-18 02:25:20 <jgarzik> and rotation
 284 2013-03-18 02:25:23 <sipa> we've had this discussion :)
 285 2013-03-18 02:25:32 epscy has joined
 286 2013-03-18 02:26:05 <gavinandresen> gwillen: I'll have patches against 0.3.24 ready tomorrow.  The main 0.8.1 commit does apply cleanly to 0.3.24, at least (didn't try 0.3.19, I think deepbit is the only one running code THAT old)
 287 2013-03-18 02:26:13 <gwillen> gavinandresen: *nods*
 288 2013-03-18 02:26:20 <Rebroad> sipa.. ah.. were you referring to using a webpage for updates as the "centralized service"? If so, very ironic!
 289 2013-03-18 02:26:29 <sipa> Rebroad: how so?
 290 2013-03-18 02:26:41 <sipa> Rebroad: right, alerts on itself are centralized
 291 2013-03-18 02:26:51 <sipa> Rebroad: there i must agree, if that's what you mean
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 293 2013-03-18 02:27:01 <Rebroad> yup...
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 295 2013-03-18 02:27:07 * jgarzik wonders aloud, if case anybody knows:  One way to "burn money" is to intentionally send it as a transaction fee, thereby donating to the miner.  What is the most efficient "burn money" transaction, sending money to $AnyMiner, considering (a) must have one or more outputs, and (b) zero-value output is non-standard.
 296 2013-03-18 02:27:10 <sipa> but let's not go depend on more than centralization than necessary
 297 2013-03-18 02:27:14 <keystroke> how can an alert never expire? do they retranmit forever?
 298 2013-03-18 02:27:36 <jgarzik> So...  a send-change-to-self TX + fee is the best I can come up with
 299 2013-03-18 02:27:44 <Rebroad> and given the alert is client specific, it should only be used with compatible clients. mine would do this, any other behaviour is spammy
 300 2013-03-18 02:30:11 <Rebroad> As part of improved block download, I want to add info to debug.log so that each block requested and received is shown an id to link it to the node in use. I'm aware that it's undesired to reveal IP addresses associated with blocks, so it seems the only way I can do this is my changing the debug.log output to now show any IP addresses ever, otherwise the node identiier could be used to associate it with the IP address. is t
 301 2013-03-18 02:30:12 <Rebroad> here any reason IP addresses need to be shown in the debug.log file other than for perhaps when a node misbehaves?
 302 2013-03-18 02:30:34 <Rebroad> *not
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 304 2013-03-18 02:30:42 <gavinandresen> Rebroad: it'd be find to show IP addresses if (fDebug) ...
 305 2013-03-18 02:31:03 <gavinandresen> … then you just run -debug   to get the extra info
 306 2013-03-18 02:31:39 <Rebroad> gavinandresen,  when I submitted a pull request previously to show IP addresses of blocks only when a command line flag was stipulated, I believe it was rejected...
 307 2013-03-18 02:32:15 <gavinandresen> -debug is already a command line flag.
 308 2013-03-18 02:32:37 sanchaz has joined
 309 2013-03-18 02:34:21 <Rebroad> gavinandresen, I'd not want most of the information that's displayed in debug.log when -debug is enabled, but I would always like the information about which node is providing blocks  - whether it reveals the IP addresses or not.
 310 2013-03-18 02:35:25 <gavinandresen> okey dokey
 311 2013-03-18 02:35:49 <Graet> when can we expect 0.8.1 in the ppa? please
 312 2013-03-18 02:36:02 * sipa pokes BlueMatt 
 313 2013-03-18 02:36:09 <Rebroad> I realise I could just have -debug on all the time and create another app that filters out the stuff I don't want (making bitcoin output to stdout)... but I'd rather make it a configurable option of bitcoin itself :)
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 317 2013-03-18 02:37:09 <gavinandresen> I'm not a big fan of configurable options up the wazoo myself, so I'd vote for the "filter debug.log through another app" approach.
 318 2013-03-18 02:37:32 <gavinandresen> I'm not a big fan of debug.log either, though.  It needs to go away before we get to a 1.0 release.
 319 2013-03-18 02:39:24 <gavinandresen> we should just copy some other application that has solved the debugging/tracing problem well, and do whatever they do.
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 335 2013-03-18 02:50:40 <rebroad_> gavinandresen, I got your "we should just copy some other application".... hmmm. yeah, I like debug.log, or rather, the info that's contained within it...  it would be good to retain some way to access that information in any future version.
 336 2013-03-18 02:51:24 TheXev has joined
 337 2013-03-18 02:53:16 <rebroad_> my bitcoin-qt (build from the latest's master) keeps core dumping... I've forgotten how to make it output a core file, and it's been a while since I used gdb on a core file..!
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 341 2013-03-18 02:58:09 <swhitt> my 0.8 dies whenever I am required to keypoolrefill i think
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 351 2013-03-18 03:06:27 <gmaxwell> swhitt: required to?
 352 2013-03-18 03:06:42 <swhitt> I'm not sure, trying to reproduce
 353 2013-03-18 03:07:11 <swhitt> gmaxwell: does the keypool generate a new address every time you use one in the keypool or only when it is empty?
 354 2013-03-18 03:07:20 <sipa> swhitt: everytime
 355 2013-03-18 03:07:27 <sipa> swhitt: unless it can't (=it is encrypted)
 356 2013-03-18 03:07:29 dawei101 has joined
 357 2013-03-18 03:07:42 <swhitt> so there are always 100 addresses (without changing bitcoin.conf/command line addresses)
 358 2013-03-18 03:07:44 <swhitt> hm
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 363 2013-03-18 03:09:06 <swhitt> i need to pay attention to the core dump the next time
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 366 2013-03-18 03:11:05 <gmaxwell> swhitt: if it only refilled when empty it the keypool would be nearly worthless.
 367 2013-03-18 03:11:19 <swhitt> yeah.
 368 2013-03-18 03:11:30 <swhitt> i backed up my wallet.dat a month ago
 369 2013-03-18 03:11:49 <swhitt> was looking at it with pywallet
 370 2013-03-18 03:11:56 <swhitt> are there any good docs about this stuff anywhere?
 371 2013-03-18 03:12:09 <gmaxwell> rebroad_: its usually better to run under gdb directly then to try to fuddle things out from a corefile.
 372 2013-03-18 03:12:21 <swhitt> If I google it I get https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Key_pool
 373 2013-03-18 03:12:24 <gmaxwell> swhitt: About what stuff?
 374 2013-03-18 03:12:28 <swhitt> but that makes no sense to newbs
 375 2013-03-18 03:12:52 <swhitt> Backing up wallet.dat and what it means, what the keypool is, why you need to make sure you have a relatively recent wallet.dat
 376 2013-03-18 03:13:32 <swhitt> I can dig through bitcointalk to figure out what's going on but bitcointalk is a bit like tvtropes
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 379 2013-03-18 03:15:16 <gmaxwell> tvtropes has less misinformation
 380 2013-03-18 03:15:28 <swhitt> ^ +1 from me
 381 2013-03-18 03:15:45 <swhitt> my wife was interested in bitcoin and she found the forum
 382 2013-03-18 03:15:47 <swhitt> and the wiki
 383 2013-03-18 03:15:51 <swhitt> and she just got confused
 384 2013-03-18 03:16:21 <swhitt> she asked me about keeping her coin safe and I said to back up wallet.dat
 385 2013-03-18 03:16:28 <swhitt> but backing up wallet.dat isn't the only thing.
 386 2013-03-18 03:20:38 protus has quit (Quit: protus)
 387 2013-03-18 03:20:43 <gmaxwell> backing up the wallet.dat correctly e.g. via the backup function is what is necessary and sufficient, assuming you do it frequently enough.
 388 2013-03-18 03:21:42 <swhitt> right
 389 2013-03-18 03:21:48 <swhitt> but she has a ceramics stor
 390 2013-03-18 03:21:49 <swhitt> e
 391 2013-03-18 03:21:55 <swhitt> and she does 100 tx in 2-3 days
 392 2013-03-18 03:22:14 <swhitt> I guess it's only an issue if she does outgoing tx
 393 2013-03-18 03:22:25 <sipa> or generates a new address
 394 2013-03-18 03:22:36 <sipa> which you should do for every incoming transaction :)
 395 2013-03-18 03:24:05 <swhitt> well that increases the barrier to acceptance too
 396 2013-03-18 03:24:15 <swhitt> she was thinking of just putting a QR code on the counter
 397 2013-03-18 03:24:17 <swhitt> i dunno
 398 2013-03-18 03:24:25 <swhitt> I suppose I could symlink the wallet.dat to dropbox
 399 2013-03-18 03:24:31 <swhitt> and just have dropbox handle the backup
 400 2013-03-18 03:28:14 <gmaxwell> swhitt: you can't just get copies of it when running, well you can of course, but if you do that many of the the backups will be unreadable.
 401 2013-03-18 03:28:29 <swhitt> gmaxwell: is there an easy way to automate this sort of thing?
 402 2013-03-18 03:28:36 yoyo__ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 403 2013-03-18 03:28:50 <swhitt> I suppose I could switch to a client that uses deterministic keys
 404 2013-03-18 03:29:00 <swhitt> but that kinda defeats the purpose
 405 2013-03-18 03:29:08 <gmaxwell> for that use I'd set the keypool to some large value so that a months transactions are far below that.. then do weekly or monthly backups.  You can use the RPC to trigger the backups on a timer.
 406 2013-03-18 03:29:28 <enquirer> wow noticed that "bitcoin" is listed in the "skills" section of freelancer.com
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 410 2013-03-18 03:30:32 <gmaxwell> swhitt: you can make the reference client's keys arbitrarily determinstic by increasing the keypool size. E.g. setting it to 10000 would leave you perfectly fine with monthly backups.
 411 2013-03-18 03:31:01 <swhitt> gmaxwell: deterministic because it's in a determined list at least :)
 412 2013-03-18 03:31:06 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, for most people 10k would be a life time :)
 413 2013-03-18 03:31:18 <tre-spective> is something wrong with the blockchain
 414 2013-03-18 03:31:31 <swhitt> blockchain.info is just behind, tre-spective
 415 2013-03-18 03:31:37 <tre-spective> k thx
 416 2013-03-18 03:31:37 <enquirer> there are about 75 "skills" in software section, like Python and Java, and bitcoin is one of them
 417 2013-03-18 03:31:40 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: well he said 100 txn in 2-3 days.
 418 2013-03-18 03:32:00 <swhitt> gmaxwell: I was being generous, but still
 419 2013-03-18 03:32:04 Guest78441 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 420 2013-03-18 03:32:11 <swhitt> I think most folk don't understand that the reference client uses a keypool
 421 2013-03-18 03:32:12 <sipa> enquirer: where?
 422 2013-03-18 03:32:19 <swhitt> and many expect it to work like bc.info
 423 2013-03-18 03:32:34 <phantomcircuit> swhitt, generate a 10k keypool wallet, then change the setting to the default of like 1k
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 426 2013-03-18 03:32:48 <phantomcircuit> by the time you've used all 10k there will be a much better answer
 427 2013-03-18 03:33:13 <swhitt> phantomcircuit: yeah, that's what I did. but other people might be really confused when they backup their wallet and then lose 2k BTC because the wallet only contains the first 100 txns
 428 2013-03-18 03:35:38 Jamesonwa has joined
 429 2013-03-18 03:35:49 <Jamesonwa> I need a little help from someone
 430 2013-03-18 03:36:00 <Jamesonwa> I've got about 22 btcs in my blockchain wallet I cannot spend for some reason
 431 2013-03-18 03:36:10 <Jamesonwa> The wallet is not "watch only" and is indeed my own address
 432 2013-03-18 03:36:18 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 433 2013-03-18 03:36:24 <Jamesonwa> but for some reason when sending I get an "insufficient funds" error
 434 2013-03-18 03:36:30 <sipa> Jamesonwa: contact blockchain.info
 435 2013-03-18 03:36:52 <Jamesonwa> Okay, was hoping someone has encountered same issue.
 436 2013-03-18 03:36:54 <phantomcircuit> swhitt, yeah the only issue with a very large keypool is it can take a while to start up
 437 2013-03-18 03:37:05 <phantomcircuit> 10k is still within the realm of reasonable(ish) though
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 444 2013-03-18 03:46:28 <swhitt> whaow that took a minute or so
 445 2013-03-18 03:46:35 <swhitt> but now i have a bigass wallet.dat
 446 2013-03-18 03:48:06 <epylar> is there new data being stored in the ass of wallet.dat?
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 449 2013-03-18 03:51:50 <swhitt> yes
 450 2013-03-18 03:51:55 <swhitt> any new transactions are stored there
 451 2013-03-18 03:52:02 <swhitt> to prevent having to scan the blockchain
 452 2013-03-18 03:53:35 <epylar> oh, so that's where it's getting stored.
 453 2013-03-18 03:53:56 <epylar> the unspent transaction thing.
 454 2013-03-18 03:54:21 <epylar> seems a little strange to store it with every wallet.
 455 2013-03-18 03:54:33 <epylar> seems more like a per-client thing
 456 2013-03-18 03:54:46 <epylar> and most clients only have one wallet, but still
 457 2013-03-18 03:54:57 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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 459 2013-03-18 03:55:57 <gmaxwell> epylar: no. You're now confused.
 460 2013-03-18 03:56:04 <gmaxwell> swhitt: see what you did?
 461 2013-03-18 03:56:10 * gmaxwell wags his finger
 462 2013-03-18 03:56:25 <epylar> i'll just go back to assuming it's all magic.
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 464 2013-03-18 03:57:04 <gmaxwell> epylar: the wallet stores only transactions relevant to your wallet, your keys, and address book/labels/accounts, plus your preferences. Thats all.
 465 2013-03-18 03:57:15 <gmaxwell> the utxo set is in the chainstate directory.
 466 2013-03-18 03:57:26 Guest78441 has joined
 467 2013-03-18 03:57:51 <epylar> ah, now it makes sense
 468 2013-03-18 03:59:08 zooko has joined
 469 2013-03-18 03:59:28 <enquirer> sipa: in the "skills" section of freelancer.com
 470 2013-03-18 03:59:56 <tre-spective> i must have some old coins?
 471 2013-03-18 03:59:57 Ashaman_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 472 2013-03-18 03:59:59 <tre-spective> a few hours unconfirmed
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 475 2013-03-18 04:05:31 <tre-spective> what happens if it stays unconfirmed?
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 481 2013-03-18 04:10:58 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: IMO Thursday is way too fast
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 513 2013-03-18 05:07:23 <keystroke> how is using the backup feature to backup the wallet different than copying the wallet.dat?
 514 2013-03-18 05:07:49 <gmaxwell> keystroke: it doesn't result in a corrupted wallet.dat file (which you can get if you copy the file while its running)
 515 2013-03-18 05:07:52 <keystroke> assuming bitcoin is closed...
 516 2013-03-18 05:07:56 <keystroke> ah ok :)
 517 2013-03-18 05:07:57 <keystroke> thx!
 518 2013-03-18 05:08:03 <gmaxwell> assuming it was closed cleanly it's the same.
 519 2013-03-18 05:08:08 <keystroke> sorry wrote that just as you typed the answer - k makes sense
 520 2013-03-18 05:08:17 <keystroke> just double checking there isn't some key pool weirdness i don't understand
 521 2013-03-18 05:10:16 <gmaxwell> keystroke: nope, not today— though it would probably be a good idea to record backup times so it can nag you when you've gone too long without a backup. :)
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 524 2013-03-18 05:11:23 <keystroke> so the time would be based on how many transactions were made rather than how long in seconds, right?
 525 2013-03-18 05:11:48 <keystroke> i.e. 100 transactions would use up the key pool
 526 2013-03-18 05:11:53 <epylar> so wait.  if you shut down the computer suddenly, can wallet.dat get corrupted?
 527 2013-03-18 05:11:57 <epylar> or if you do a shadow copy?
 528 2013-03-18 05:12:12 <epylar> shadow copy i think freezes it in place
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 530 2013-03-18 05:13:05 <epylar> shut down as in pull the power
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 537 2013-03-18 05:20:54 <gmaxwell> keystroke: right.
 538 2013-03-18 05:20:59 <keystroke> thx :)
 539 2013-03-18 05:21:16 <gmaxwell> epylar: no, the database handles recovering from that, but in order to do so it needs data in database/
 540 2013-03-18 05:21:35 <gmaxwell> epylar: if you just copyoff an unclean copy of wallet.dat you won't have the transaction logs in database/
 541 2013-03-18 05:24:20 <epylar> hmm.
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 543 2013-03-18 05:24:48 <epylar> so you could recover, but you may have to reinitialize
 544 2013-03-18 05:24:54 <epylar> (i'm thinking about people using backblaze or carbonite or ms backup)
 545 2013-03-18 05:25:05 <gmaxwell> epylar: those backups will likely be no good.
 546 2013-03-18 05:25:05 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 547 2013-03-18 05:25:22 <gmaxwell> unless they manage to make a point in time snapshot, which I don't think is possible in windows or mac.
 548 2013-03-18 05:25:28 o2 has joined
 549 2013-03-18 05:25:59 <epylar> so it sounds like a timed reminder to back up wallet.dat _at least_ to another directory on the same volume would be a good idea
 550 2013-03-18 05:26:16 <epylar> or wait, couldn't the client itself make a backup on startup to a wallet.bak?
 551 2013-03-18 05:26:17 banghouse has joined
 552 2013-03-18 05:26:54 <epylar> (or whatever is needed to secure the private keys)
 553 2013-03-18 05:26:54 <gmaxwell> epylar: it probably should, though when this has been suggested before some people complained that extra wallet files might get left around, resulting in theft.
 554 2013-03-18 05:27:00 <epylar> ah.
 555 2013-03-18 05:27:28 <epylar> i guess if you're dealing with money it's reasonable to take extra manual precautions, as long as they're sufficiently explained to users.
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 557 2013-03-18 05:27:49 <gmaxwell> well, risk of dataloss is probably much greater than the risk of theft.
 558 2013-03-18 05:28:28 <gmaxwell> esp theft that sounds like "I thought I deleted the wallet off that system before giving someone else access... but there were multiple wallets so it screwed me!"
 559 2013-03-18 05:28:39 Belkaar has joined
 560 2013-03-18 05:28:56 <gmaxwell> doubly so since database/ can leak wallet data already.
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 565 2013-03-18 05:41:54 <buddyrandom> someone really likes their testnet btc
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 569 2013-03-18 05:42:52 <buddyrandom> maybe tpfaucet allow for requesting a variable amount
 570 2013-03-18 05:42:57 <buddyrandom> *should
 571 2013-03-18 05:46:03 <jgarzik> 2013-03-18 05:23:37 trying connection seed.bitcoin.sipa.be lastseen=0.0hrs
 572 2013-03-18 05:46:03 <jgarzik> 2013-03-18 05:23:37 SOCKS5 connecting seed.bitcoin.sipa.be
 573 2013-03-18 05:46:03 <jgarzik> 2013-03-18 05:23:42 ERROR: Proxy error: host unreachable
 574 2013-03-18 05:47:34 molecular has joined
 575 2013-03-18 05:47:41 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yes, when it can't DNSSEED it DNSSEED-connects. Which fails often.
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 579 2013-03-18 05:52:28 <maji> is the blockchain working
 580 2013-03-18 05:52:41 <maji> im having problems..
 581 2013-03-18 05:52:45 <cyphase> maji, the blockchain doens't work, it just is
 582 2013-03-18 05:52:46 <maji> anyone around
 583 2013-03-18 05:52:53 <cyphase> all hail the blockchain!
 584 2013-03-18 05:53:03 <maji> hehe
 585 2013-03-18 05:53:07 <cyphase> maji, i'm not having problems
 586 2013-03-18 05:53:08 <gmaxwell> maji: are you asking about the commercial webwallet service "blockchain.info"?
 587 2013-03-18 05:53:08 <maji> yeah well
 588 2013-03-18 05:53:13 <maji> yes i am
 589 2013-03-18 05:53:15 <cyphase> ah
 590 2013-03-18 05:53:21 <maji> thankyou:)
 591 2013-03-18 05:53:23 <cyphase> i always forget to ask
 592 2013-03-18 05:53:28 <maji> haha
 593 2013-03-18 05:53:57 <gmaxwell> maji: then this is the wrong place. "The blockchain" is part of the bitcoin system, "blockchain.info" is an unfortunately named online bank and blockchain explorer.
 594 2013-03-18 05:54:02 <maji> but aren't all transactions confirmed through the blockchain?
 595 2013-03-18 05:54:20 <warren> They'd like you to believe that.
 596 2013-03-18 05:54:25 <maji> LOL
 597 2013-03-18 05:54:31 <maji> i lol'd
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 599 2013-03-18 05:55:01 <gmaxwell> maji: You're doing the equivilent of thinking your room is too dark in the morning, and so you call up microsoft for help with Windows because you heard that light comes in through windows. :P
 600 2013-03-18 05:55:24 <warren> gmaxwell: and we're answering that phone call
 601 2013-03-18 05:55:30 <maji> hahhaaa
 602 2013-03-18 05:55:38 <maji> you guys are a trip
 603 2013-03-18 05:56:50 <maji> are we over the fork?
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 606 2013-03-18 05:57:47 <cyphase> maji, yes, quite over
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 628 2013-03-18 06:43:56 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Is there a trademark somewhere for bitcoin?  Hrm..  perhaps we should have the foundation make a filing.
 629 2013-03-18 06:44:22 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: MtGox owns it in many jurisdictions
 630 2013-03-18 06:47:29 <epylar> so it looks like satoshi dice has made about 67,100 bitcoins in profit since starting
 631 2013-03-18 06:47:56 <epylar> or about $3M in today's prices
 632 2013-03-18 06:48:27 <midnightmagic> epylar: So why can't they afford to do it without spamming the blockchain?
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 634 2013-03-18 06:48:36 <epylar> heh
 635 2013-03-18 06:49:44 <gjs278> if the blockchain can't handle transactions, that's the blockchains problem
 636 2013-03-18 06:50:09 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: because most of it is probably them betting their own income, to make it look like it's used more than it really is, and thus inflate the stock prices
 637 2013-03-18 06:50:14 <midnightmagic> Or it wasn't ready to yet, and for similar reasons why Satoshi himself requested wikileaks not use bitcoin as early as was suggested.
 638 2013-03-18 06:50:24 <Luke-Jr> gjs278: the blockchain solves it by blocking flooding
 639 2013-03-18 06:50:49 <Luke-Jr> too bad that part is malfunctioning
 640 2013-03-18 06:50:55 <Luke-Jr> stupid human components!
 641 2013-03-18 06:50:57 <midnightmagic> gjs278: Also, you're forgetting that "the blockchain" is served by "bitcoin users' hard drives".
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 644 2013-03-18 06:52:54 <gjs278> yeah there's definitely 8.3gb worth of blockchain sitting here
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 648 2013-03-18 06:54:34 <Luke-Jr> if services can't handle the flood-blocking, that's the services problem
 649 2013-03-18 06:55:31 <Luke-Jr> people shouldn't sabotage the flood-blocking to benefit the services at the expense of the blockchain
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 717 2013-03-18 09:07:58 <ashod> got a question about api cmd listtransactions,,    if I use the parms [ ' ',10,0]  this will list the newest 10 transactions of my default wallet ?
 718 2013-03-18 09:09:05 <ashod> anyone ?
 719 2013-03-18 09:10:08 <ashod> can anyone give me assistance for the bitcoin api - or am I in the wrong chat room ?
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 721 2013-03-18 09:13:15 <freewil> ashod, yes i believe that is correct, although the default account is actually an empty string (''; no spaces)
 722 2013-03-18 09:13:40 <freewil> you can use '*' to use all accounts
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 762 2013-03-18 10:19:04 <ashod> thanks freewill - the '*' option, was great !
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 773 2013-03-18 10:30:32 <Silverado> Can someone please help?  I'm not able to reset my forum password.  It's not sending the passwword reset mail.
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 794 2013-03-18 11:10:07 <jaakkos> what are the types of scripts currently accepted by the network?
 795 2013-03-18 11:11:03 <iwilcox> I think only the simplest kinds, because funky ones might cause bugs.
 796 2013-03-18 11:11:10 <iwilcox> s/cause/reveal/
 797 2013-03-18 11:11:40 <iwilcox> I think that's because the general rule is that the client won't validate and forward anything it wouldn't generate itself.
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 799 2013-03-18 11:17:39 <sipa> iwilcox: in unconfirmed transactions, yes
 800 2013-03-18 11:17:56 <sipa> vut once in a block, everything is allowed
 801 2013-03-18 11:18:47 <jaakkos> does that mean a miner can throw in arbitrary scripts?
 802 2013-03-18 11:19:09 <sipa> arbitrary _valid_ scripts, yes
 803 2013-03-18 11:19:47 <sipa> scripts are really just flexible mechanism for doing access control on coins
 804 2013-03-18 11:19:59 <sipa> and the rules are fixed
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 810 2013-03-18 11:25:14 <jaakkos> so, what about the inputs to a non-standard script? they are allowed to broadcast when the redeeming tx is 0-confirmed?
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 822 2013-03-18 11:56:18 <zebedee_> Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can't find the answer.  How do I get edit priveleges on the bitcoin wiki?  I've been registered for about 3-4 days now.
 823 2013-03-18 11:56:49 <sipa> zebedee_: on the login page there are instructions; there is a one-time 0.01 btc fee for spam protection
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 825 2013-03-18 11:57:08 <zebedee_> Wow.  I'll look again.  Tx.
 826 2013-03-18 11:57:16 <sipa> jaakkos: consuming an output is standard is the output being spent is standard
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 828 2013-03-18 11:58:22 <jaakkos> sipa: the question was about a non-standard output, however
 829 2013-03-18 11:58:40 <jaakkos> one that can be generated by a imner
 830 2013-03-18 11:58:58 <jaakkos> so, do you need to be a miner to redeem the output as well?
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 832 2013-03-18 12:00:30 <zebedee_> sipa: Tx, done it.  Can't believe they require 6 confs for 0.01 BTC!  Lol.
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 834 2013-03-18 12:04:29 <sipa> jaakkos: yes
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 837 2013-03-18 12:05:49 <jaakkos> ok, thanks
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 847 2013-03-18 12:21:31 <jaakkos> sipa: if you feel like answering one more of these... what if the output script is non-standard, but it accepts an input script of the standard form? do you still need a miner to redeem it?
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 852 2013-03-18 12:26:28 <Magma_> Is IP transactions still supported in bitcoind?
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 855 2013-03-18 12:27:51 <redeper> what will 0.7 nodes see after may 15?
 856 2013-03-18 12:28:02 <redeper> will they still relay transactions or will they know they are out of sync?
 857 2013-03-18 12:28:39 <ashod_> I'm calling listtransactions and would like to know what the object properies are -
 858 2013-03-18 12:28:51 <ashod_> is there a list ? - e.g what is blockindex and what is blocktime
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 860 2013-03-18 12:29:55 <ashod_> .
 861 2013-03-18 12:30:28 <redeper> ashod_: a block index is a hash of a block that occurred somewhere in the blockchain, try looking up the index on blockchain.info
 862 2013-03-18 12:30:45 <redeper> blocktime is just when the block entered the chain
 863 2013-03-18 12:30:55 <redeper> (block contains a timestamp)
 864 2013-03-18 12:32:50 <ashod_> when i call listtransactions '*',20,0 to view the 20 most recent ,, - the blockindex for each obj returned is not sequential, - this is what is confusing me
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 868 2013-03-18 12:37:04 <redeper> ashod_: they aren't sequential, they're all sha256 hashes
 869 2013-03-18 12:38:01 <redeper> here's the latest block
 870 2013-03-18 12:38:05 <redeper> http://blockchain.info/block-index/361027/000000000000014130686beb1ce180fe69359589c2dd46d4378b36cfff6e1dce
 871 2013-03-18 12:38:17 <ashod_> the blockindex is a value not a hash -- . on my machine blockindex is 132,  then 57, then 135
 872 2013-03-18 12:38:38 <ashod_> ok - got it-
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 874 2013-03-18 12:39:22 <sipa> redeper: after 0.7, they risk ending up on a fork, very likely soon
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 876 2013-03-18 12:39:48 <sipa> redeper: meaning they will see (very) slow speed of blocks being confirmed, and their confirmations will not match those in the main chain
 877 2013-03-18 12:40:04 <sipa> redeper: they will also see a warning that their client may be out of data, and an alert
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 887 2013-03-18 12:57:31 <ashod_> when i setaccount for a bitcoinaddress so that it belongs to another wallet and there is only 1 bticoinaddress in the source wallet, is it meant to automatically generate a new address for the source wallet, thus preventing the wallet from exiting without any bitcoin addresses in it ??
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 892 2013-03-18 13:02:32 <ashod_> i'm having problems trying to do housekeeping for wallets/bitcoinaddresses users - the problem would be solved , if only I knew how I could 1) delete a wallet from the database, 2) delete an bitcoinaddress from the database
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 897 2013-03-18 13:07:12 <ashod_> i mean i can getnewaddress to generate a bitcoin address and an account at the same time, i can assign a bitcoin address to another account etc,, but how do i delete a wallet/account
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 906 2013-03-18 13:19:05 <CodeShark> 1) stop the node, delete wallet.dat from the data dir.
 907 2013-03-18 13:19:11 <CodeShark> 2) once an address is in a wallet, you cannot erase it
 908 2013-03-18 13:19:32 <CodeShark> don't do (1) without either backing up the wallet or transfering everything to another wallet
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 914 2013-03-18 13:23:17 <ashod_> ok, what about --  is it possible to backup an individual wallet with all it's addresses to a file ?
 915 2013-03-18 13:23:48 <ashod_> delete the .dat file,,  and then import one or more of these individual backedup wallet files into the new .dat file ?
 916 2013-03-18 13:24:14 <CodeShark> you can dumpprivkey and importprivkey. unfortunately, this doesn't work for change addresses
 917 2013-03-18 13:25:09 <sipa> it works for change addresses, but there's no easy way to list them
 918 2013-03-18 13:26:08 <CodeShark> you can getrawtransaction and then convert the scriptPubKey to a btca
 919 2013-03-18 13:26:24 <CodeShark> but that requires coding :p
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 921 2013-03-18 13:27:17 <CodeShark> or sorry, getrawtransaction does show the address
 922 2013-03-18 13:27:37 <CodeShark> so at least you don't have to convert the scriptPubKey to an address
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 924 2013-03-18 13:28:20 <ashod_> is there any links to tutoriials/examples of how to use the function getrawtransaction
 925 2013-03-18 13:29:21 <ashod_> i've read, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Raw_Transactions  - any other links explaining raw transactions ,, from another point of view
 926 2013-03-18 13:29:36 <CodeShark> are you using the command line interface? or bitcoin-qt?
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 930 2013-03-18 13:34:25 <ashod_> im using bitcoind  (daemon only - no QT ), and communicating with it via http json
 931 2013-03-18 13:34:44 <CodeShark> ok, so then you want to call getrawtransaction <txhash> 1
 932 2013-03-18 13:34:56 <CodeShark> the last 1 means verbose, so you'll not only get the raw hex
 933 2013-03-18 13:35:12 <CodeShark> then you can parse that data and grab change addresses from it
 934 2013-03-18 13:35:35 <CodeShark> it's a horrible hack - the RPC should have a way of querying change transactions
 935 2013-03-18 13:35:42 <CodeShark> err, change addresses
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 937 2013-03-18 13:40:04 <ashod_> okk then, is there a way to create a wallet/address with already known priv/pub keys ? -
 938 2013-03-18 13:40:19 <CodeShark> yes, just importprivkey for each of the known privkeys
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 941 2013-03-18 13:44:04 <cyphase> i was thinking.. if there was some breakthrough that weakened ecdsa, sure bitcoin could upgrade, but what about all the bitcoins that don't get spent to a more secure address? they'd all be vulnerable
 942 2013-03-18 13:44:52 <CodeShark> that applies to many other forms of security
 943 2013-03-18 13:45:07 <cyphase> certainly it does
 944 2013-03-18 13:45:15 <ashod_> is each bitcoin address make up of a private/public key pair ? - or is the wallet receive address, the only public key to speak of ?
 945 2013-03-18 13:45:37 <CodeShark> ashod_ the public key can be computed from the private key but not vice versa
 946 2013-03-18 13:45:48 <CodeShark> or at least, not in any known practical manner
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 948 2013-03-18 13:45:52 <gmaxwell> ashod_: technically the addresses are hashes of public keys.
 949 2013-03-18 13:45:59 <ashod_> does each wallet have it's own private key ?
 950 2013-03-18 13:46:03 <CodeShark> don't confuse him, gmaxwell :p
 951 2013-03-18 13:46:05 <cyphase> ashod_, each address
 952 2013-03-18 13:46:15 <ashod_> does each bitcoin address have its own private key  ?
 953 2013-03-18 13:46:19 <cyphase> yes
 954 2013-03-18 13:46:45 <ashod_> so a wallet holding 5 bitcoin addresses, has 5 private keys associated with it, and 5 public keys ?
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 956 2013-03-18 13:46:51 <cyphase> yes
 957 2013-03-18 13:47:12 <ashod_> so the wallet itsef,, does it have a private key or public key ?]
 958 2013-03-18 13:47:23 <gmaxwell> cyphase: Failing to point that out causes confusion eventually. :P
 959 2013-03-18 13:47:25 <cyphase> the wallet is just a collection of addresses
 960 2013-03-18 13:47:36 <gmaxwell> ashod_: the wallet itself is a collection of keys. Not a single one.
 961 2013-03-18 13:47:43 <ashod_> ok,,, so the wallet, doesn't actually have an address , --
 962 2013-03-18 13:47:45 <gribble> Error: "," is not a valid command.
 963 2013-03-18 13:47:50 <SomeoneWeird> not the actual wallet, no
 964 2013-03-18 13:47:50 <CodeShark> ashod_: as I said earlier, the private key contains the full information necessary to compute the public key...but it's convenient to also store addresses for quick lookup and so you don't need access to the privkeys all the time
 965 2013-03-18 13:47:51 <cyphase> gmaxwell, i think you mean CodeShark :)
 966 2013-03-18 13:47:58 <ashod_> the default receiving address of the wallet, is just a bitcoin address ?
 967 2013-03-18 13:48:12 <cyphase> yes
 968 2013-03-18 13:48:26 <SomeoneWeird> technically it doesn't have a default receiving address, iirc
 969 2013-03-18 13:48:33 <cyphase> true
 970 2013-03-18 13:48:44 <cyphase> just the first address that's generated
 971 2013-03-18 13:48:48 <cyphase> it's not special
 972 2013-03-18 13:48:52 <ashod_> ok - so , the bitcoinaddress as the world sees it , is actually a public key - the private key is known only on my server
 973 2013-03-18 13:48:53 <SomeoneWeird> yeah
 974 2013-03-18 13:48:54 <gmaxwell> cyphase: last. it changes when you hit the button.
 975 2013-03-18 13:49:00 <SomeoneWeird> correct, ashod_
 976 2013-03-18 13:49:21 <cyphase> gmaxwell, what?
 977 2013-03-18 13:49:46 <ashod_> ok ok - pieces are falling to place .... back in a bit, going to try some raw transaction tests
 978 2013-03-18 13:49:47 <SomeoneWeird> it's the last address that's been generated
 979 2013-03-18 13:49:49 <SomeoneWeird> not the first
 980 2013-03-18 13:49:49 <ashod_> thanks !!!
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 982 2013-03-18 13:50:19 <cyphase> i think he was calling the first address in a new wallet the 'default'
 983 2013-03-18 13:50:25 <ashod_> like (Default) in windows registry - automatically gets made, when you make a new key ?
 984 2013-03-18 13:50:28 <CodeShark> ashod_: if you want a deeper understanding of what a bitcoin address is, check out https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Base58Check_encoding
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 986 2013-03-18 13:51:08 <ashod_> i remember reading something about base58 a while ago,, didnt pay any attention - ok , i'll read that first
 987 2013-03-18 13:51:21 <CodeShark> except that version 0x01 is used for the version byte rather than 0x05 for most bitcoin addresses
 988 2013-03-18 13:51:27 <CodeShark> despite what that article claims
 989 2013-03-18 13:51:35 <gmaxwell> cyphase: I think he was calling the displayed one default. :P
 990 2013-03-18 13:51:46 <SomeoneWeird> gmaxwell, yeah
 991 2013-03-18 13:54:02 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: 0x00 which gets base 58 encoded as a 1.
 992 2013-03-18 13:54:06 <gmaxwell> (because 1 is 0)
 993 2013-03-18 13:54:18 <CodeShark> or yeah, correct, gmaxwell
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 995 2013-03-18 13:54:37 <gmaxwell> that it clais is fine:
 996 2013-03-18 13:54:39 <gmaxwell>  One byte of version/application information. Bitcoin addresses use 0x00 for this byte (future ones may use 0x05).
 997 2013-03-18 13:55:15 <SomeoneWeird> gmax knows his shit!
 998 2013-03-18 13:55:17 <SomeoneWeird> :p
 999 2013-03-18 13:55:20 <CodeShark> are you looking at the "Encoding a Bitcoin Address" section?
1000 2013-03-18 13:55:41 <CodeShark> because the page I'm looking at says nothing about version 0x00 in that section
1001 2013-03-18 13:56:07 <CodeShark> I see "Because of the 0x05 version/application byte, Bitcoin addresses always start with the digit '3'."
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1003 2013-03-18 13:56:40 <gmaxwell> Indeed, I didn't look in that section.
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1005 2013-03-18 13:57:23 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: go glean up your mess.
1006 2013-03-18 13:57:33 <gmaxwell> or clean, as applicable.
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1010 2013-03-18 14:05:27 <CodeShark> 0x00 is for standard pay-to-address scripts and 0x05 for multisigs, no?
1011 2013-03-18 14:06:31 <grau> CodeShark: I tought the reverse
1012 2013-03-18 14:06:59 <grau> CodeShark: sorry, I though p2sh vs multisig
1013 2013-03-18 14:07:00 <lianj>       :address_version => "00",
1014 2013-03-18 14:07:01 <lianj>       :p2sh_version => "05",
1015 2013-03-18 14:07:23 <grau> lianj: agree
1016 2013-03-18 14:08:28 <CodeShark> ok, I corrected it
1017 2013-03-18 14:09:51 <sipa> "multisig" is not an address type; it's a property of the script
1018 2013-03-18 14:10:03 <sipa> p2sh is an address type that supports any script
1019 2013-03-18 14:10:16 <CodeShark> right, but the only time I've used p2sh is for multisigs
1020 2013-03-18 14:10:40 <CodeShark> but yes, you are correct
1021 2013-03-18 14:10:43 <sipa> sure, p2sh was introduced to be able to create multisig addresses
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1023 2013-03-18 14:10:57 <sipa> but you can do non-multisig p2sh, and non-p2sh multisig
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1026 2013-03-18 14:13:05 <jouke> but, non-p2sh multisig are limited to three address right?
1027 2013-03-18 14:13:37 <sipa> no
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1029 2013-03-18 14:13:51 <sipa> multisig with more than 3 pubkeys is non-standard
1030 2013-03-18 14:13:57 <sipa> but that applies to both p2sh and non-p2sh
1031 2013-03-18 14:14:19 <jouke> Oh really
1032 2013-03-18 14:14:21 <jouke> ok
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1075 2013-03-18 15:30:16 <BlueMatt> sipa: pong
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1090 2013-03-18 15:42:24 <BlueMatt> sipa: oh, ppa...yea lemme do that...
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1108 2013-03-18 16:06:01 <pete90> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.1/ includes the line "Looking for the latest version? Download bitcoin-0.8.0-win32-setup.exe (10.5 MB)" - doesn't look quite right
1109 2013-03-18 16:06:59 <Luke-Jr> lol
1110 2013-03-18 16:07:20 <pete90> only 1 bit out !
1111 2013-03-18 16:07:54 <BTC_Bear> It beats "Upgrade to 0.7"
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1116 2013-03-18 16:11:44 <helo> doesn't sound as good as "Upgrade to 1.0!"
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1121 2013-03-18 16:14:21 <joe_k> i need to do ECC arithmetic to compute my vanity private key.  Does a common language library handle this?
1122 2013-03-18 16:14:39 <joe_k> i have C#/F#, python, ruby, haskell, erlang, close at hand
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1129 2013-03-18 16:17:10 <t7> c# yes, haskell yes (my github repo :3)
1130 2013-03-18 16:18:02 <joe_k> url?
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1132 2013-03-18 16:19:09 <t7> https://github.com/tomcumming/ecdsa
1133 2013-03-18 16:19:27 <joe_k> sweet. thx
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1135 2013-03-18 16:19:42 <joe_k> if you're into C# and haskell, i wonder if you've tried F#... im liking it
1136 2013-03-18 16:19:50 <joe_k> but I do wish i could turn on "non-strict, pure" mode :)
1137 2013-03-18 16:19:55 <Scrat> joe_k: python and especially ruby would suck. too slow for vanity address iteration
1138 2013-03-18 16:20:02 <t7> oh i didnt do key generation, but it wasnt hard i dont think
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1140 2013-03-18 16:20:14 <joe_k> Scrat: the address is computed. I just need to do the elliptic curve sum/multiplication
1141 2013-03-18 16:20:15 <t7> just multiply a point by random mod n or something
1142 2013-03-18 16:20:22 <daybyter> Java?
1143 2013-03-18 16:20:40 <joe_k> Scrat: also, python has a jit these days (pypy)
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1145 2013-03-18 16:20:52 <joe_k> written in python... that is compiled with itself... etc
1146 2013-03-18 16:21:04 <joe_k> its like 5x faster than cpython
1147 2013-03-18 16:21:38 <joe_k> so i just need the prime number p from the curve params
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1149 2013-03-18 16:21:53 <joe_k> ill investigate. thanks
1150 2013-03-18 16:22:31 <SomeoneWeird> nic readme
1151 2013-03-18 16:22:33 <SomeoneWeird> nice*
1152 2013-03-18 16:22:40 <SomeoneWeird> >.>
1153 2013-03-18 16:22:46 <t7> joe_k, the wikipedia pages on crypto are usually really good. even for me who never did math at school
1154 2013-03-18 16:23:27 <RRViper> hi folks. I have a somewhat "dumb" question about the bitcoin program, in particular on what's being stored on the HD.
1155 2013-03-18 16:23:42 <joe_k> the history of the network
1156 2013-03-18 16:23:45 <joe_k> and your wallet private keys
1157 2013-03-18 16:23:53 <joe_k> and the program binaries :)
1158 2013-03-18 16:24:12 <joe_k> the history of the network is what stores your BTC (they exist separately from your computer)
1159 2013-03-18 16:24:27 Joost has joined
1160 2013-03-18 16:24:32 <joe_k> the private keys let you spend those coins that the network knows about by signing a transaction coming "from" them
1161 2013-03-18 16:24:57 nelisky has joined
1162 2013-03-18 16:25:01 <RRViper> I see.  does it take up that much space?  I've ran the program for about 24 hours, and it's used about 9GB of space.
1163 2013-03-18 16:25:15 <joe_k> the blockchain (network history) takes like 4GB in its database I think
1164 2013-03-18 16:25:28 <joe_k> the other space may be hardlinked or something
1165 2013-03-18 16:25:35 <joe_k> but yes that's normal
1166 2013-03-18 16:25:41 <joe_k> there are lightweight clients
1167 2013-03-18 16:26:23 <RRViper> well the blocks folder takes up about 7 of that 9GB
1168 2013-03-18 16:27:03 <joe_k> multibit is only taking 25MB. i dont know how it does it
1169 2013-03-18 16:27:13 <sipa> it only stores block headers
1170 2013-03-18 16:27:19 <sipa> it doesn't validate block data
1171 2013-03-18 16:27:50 <RRViper> should I expect it to take up more space, or is that about the max?  bear with me I'm on day 2 of using this.
1172 2013-03-18 16:27:53 <joe_k> seeing another block rooted at that header basically validates it, does it not?
1173 2013-03-18 16:28:23 <joe_k> RRViper: it will grow as the network history continues to grow. But very much more slowly once its caught up
1174 2013-03-18 16:28:52 <sipa> joe_k: no, that only validates its proof of work
1175 2013-03-18 16:29:05 <joe_k> but that means someone else accepted it as valid
1176 2013-03-18 16:29:08 <sipa> joe_k: the transactions themself can't be validated if you don't have data about the transactions being spent
1177 2013-03-18 16:29:12 <joe_k> valid enough to mine on
1178 2013-03-18 16:29:14 <sipa> so you rely on miners not colluding
1179 2013-03-18 16:29:18 <joe_k> right
1180 2013-03-18 16:29:36 <RRViper> sounds like I should consider changing to a lighter client then.  This partition on the hard drive won't hold much more at the moment.
1181 2013-03-18 16:29:49 <joe_k> you can also use a service like blockchain.info to hold your wallet
1182 2013-03-18 16:29:51 ic3 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1183 2013-03-18 16:30:06 <joe_k> i dont think they even store your private keys... i think they do all the computations in the browser with JS
1184 2013-03-18 16:31:21 bitafterbit has joined
1185 2013-03-18 16:31:25 <RRViper> or better yet, is it possible to change the location where this is saved at?  I have about 7TB of HD space available, just not on this partition.
1186 2013-03-18 16:31:47 <sipa> RRViper: -datadir=path
1187 2013-03-18 16:34:08 <RRViper> ok, and I assume that would be done at the command line in the bitcoin folder?
1188 2013-03-18 16:34:58 <joe_k> you can probably change the shortcut
1189 2013-03-18 16:35:02 <joe_k> what os
1190 2013-03-18 16:35:03 <sipa> yes
1191 2013-03-18 16:35:10 <sipa> you can also put it in the config file
1192 2013-03-18 16:35:14 <RRViper> win 7 ult
1193 2013-03-18 16:37:24 BenderCoin has joined
1194 2013-03-18 16:40:11 <RRViper> let's see.....for guiminer the configs I've found so far are defaults and servers.  I don't think I want to type it into those.
1195 2013-03-18 16:40:25 guruvan has joined
1196 2013-03-18 16:41:27 <Ciesson> guiminer is not related to the bitcoin program installed on your computer, unless you are solo mining. (which is unfeasible today)
1197 2013-03-18 16:41:30 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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1200 2013-03-18 16:42:14 <RRViper> no, I'm doing shared.  So I'm in the wrong folder.
1201 2013-03-18 16:42:26 zooko` is now known as zooko
1202 2013-03-18 16:43:41 <Ciesson> yep
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1204 2013-03-18 16:44:19 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ping
1205 2013-03-18 16:44:27 <Ciesson> if you installed the bitcoin.org client into the default location, it should be hiding in C:\Program Files [(x86)]\Bitcoin
1206 2013-03-18 16:44:52 <Ciesson> you will want to create a shortcut to the bitcoin-qt.exe file
1207 2013-03-18 16:44:56 <Luke-Jr> is 33 bytes a compressed or uncompressed key?
1208 2013-03-18 16:45:02 <sipa> Luke-Jr: compressed
1209 2013-03-18 16:45:23 <sipa> Luke-Jr: wait; public key or secret key?
1210 2013-03-18 16:45:32 <Luke-Jr> sipa: in that case, I'm calculating 2500 txids per the biggest block 0.7.2 will create.. sound right?
1211 2013-03-18 16:45:36 <Luke-Jr> public
1212 2013-03-18 16:45:44 <RRViper> ciesson: ok done that
1213 2013-03-18 16:46:02 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i used send-to-pubkey in my calculation, and got a larger number, but that's expected
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1217 2013-03-18 16:46:39 <Luke-Jr> expected why?
1218 2013-03-18 16:46:57 <Ciesson> RRViper: open the shortcut properties, and in the Target box, add on -datadir=D:\Some\Where
1219 2013-03-18 16:47:01 <Luke-Jr> ah, I'm doing something wrong.. 1 sec
1220 2013-03-18 16:47:19 zooko` has joined
1221 2013-03-18 16:47:20 <Ciesson> RRViper: make sure to move your existing files there before starting, or it will make a new wallet for you
1222 2013-03-18 16:47:35 <Ciesson> RRViper: C:\Users\YourName\AppData\Roaming\Bitcoin
1223 2013-03-18 16:47:52 <Luke-Jr> hmm, now getting 15000
1224 2013-03-18 16:48:07 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1225 2013-03-18 16:48:40 <RRViper> , so just add a comma after the current info, and then add the new information then?
1226 2013-03-18 16:48:53 HANTI is now known as hanti
1227 2013-03-18 16:49:12 <Ciesson> RRViper: A comma?
1228 2013-03-18 16:49:34 <Ciesson> RRViper: you should just put -datadir=x after the existing text
1229 2013-03-18 16:49:57 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1230 2013-03-18 16:50:07 <RRViper> ok.  that's what I thought, but I wanted to make sure.
1231 2013-03-18 16:50:23 cyphurnz has quit ()
1232 2013-03-18 16:51:22 <RRViper> ok so I'll copy what I need over first, and then finish this part.
1233 2013-03-18 16:52:55 <RRViper> brb
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1237 2013-03-18 16:54:07 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: why isn't this patch counting *outputs*? :/
1238 2013-03-18 16:54:43 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: because outputs aren't indexed until they become inputs.
1239 2013-03-18 16:55:03 <gavinandresen> … the transaction that they're part of is indexed....
1240 2013-03-18 16:55:21 sgornick has joined
1241 2013-03-18 16:55:42 <gavinandresen> … and strike what I said at first:  they're not re-indexed when they become inputs, they're just marked as spent in the database.
1242 2013-03-18 16:55:51 keystroke has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1243 2013-03-18 16:56:25 <Luke-Jr> ok, but shouldn't the transactions themselvs be counted then?
1244 2013-03-18 16:56:34 TD has joined
1245 2013-03-18 16:56:39 <gavinandresen> yes, and they are
1246 2013-03-18 16:57:08 <gavinandresen> setTxIn.insert(vtx[i].GetHash());  <-- adds each output transaction
1247 2013-03-18 16:57:43 <Luke-Jr> ah, right. got it
1248 2013-03-18 16:57:54 <RRViper> Ciesson: ok, folder will be transferred in about 90 seconds, and data information has been applied to the shortcut. anything else that I need to do?
1249 2013-03-18 16:58:53 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: per your comment on the 3rd patch of 120k being sufficient for 6 blocks deep - you're assuming such a reorg is never malicious?
1250 2013-03-18 16:59:10 orblivion has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1251 2013-03-18 16:59:12 <Ciesson> RRViper: Nope, just make sure that if you are setting the datadir to be D:\Storage\Bitcoin, your wallet.dat file is at D:\Storage\Bitcoin\wallet.dat
1252 2013-03-18 16:59:20 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: yes, if we've got an attacker capable of a malicious 6-block re-org then we've got much bigger problems
1253 2013-03-18 16:59:56 <Luke-Jr> well, even a malicious 3 block reorg would break 120k locks
1254 2013-03-18 17:00:05 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1255 2013-03-18 17:00:11 <gavinandresen> … which is why everybody should upgrade to 0.8.1
1256 2013-03-18 17:00:11 orblivion has joined
1257 2013-03-18 17:00:23 <Luke-Jr> ☺
1258 2013-03-18 17:00:57 <RRViper> ok.  Just means I needed to create another folder.
1259 2013-03-18 17:01:33 <RRViper> so now just tart bitocin back up then?
1260 2013-03-18 17:01:41 <RRViper> *start
1261 2013-03-18 17:01:53 <RRViper> <-- needs to learn how to type. ;)
1262 2013-03-18 17:01:58 cyphurnz has joined
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1266 2013-03-18 17:03:10 <pete90> gavinandresen: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.1/ includes the line "Looking for the latest version? Download bitcoin-0.8.0-win32-setup.exe (10.5 MB)" - doesn't look quite right
1267 2013-03-18 17:04:27 rapter has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1268 2013-03-18 17:04:34 <gavinandresen> pete90: it should fix itself within an hour or so, it takes SourceForge a little while to update those messages after I poke the "make this the default download" buttons
1269 2013-03-18 17:04:35 orblivion has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1270 2013-03-18 17:04:57 <gavinandresen> (I just checked, and I DID poke the buttons)
1271 2013-03-18 17:05:06 <drizztbsd> right, I have to update bitcoin packages on archlinux :P
1272 2013-03-18 17:05:24 <pete90> gavinandresen: great
1273 2013-03-18 17:05:30 unalias has quit (Quit: leaving)
1274 2013-03-18 17:05:31 <drizztbsd> p.s. topic still have 0.8.0 as latest version
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1277 2013-03-18 17:05:58 <RRViper> Ciesson:  well looks like it worked.  it's not wanting to recreate the files again.  Thanks for the info, and a thanks to +sipa and joe_k as well for helping out.
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1286 2013-03-18 17:14:06 <TD> gavinandresen: are MagicalTux and friends aware of the 0.8.1 may deadline?
1287 2013-03-18 17:14:16 t7 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1288 2013-03-18 17:14:35 <gavinandresen> TD: I sent email to my "critical infrastructure" list last night
1289 2013-03-18 17:14:50 da2ce7_d has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1290 2013-03-18 17:15:07 <SomeoneWeird> what deadline is this?
1291 2013-03-18 17:15:15 Belkaar has joined
1292 2013-03-18 17:15:25 <gavinandresen> SomeoneWeird: http://bitcoin.org/may15.html
1293 2013-03-18 17:16:05 <SomeoneWeird> ah
1294 2013-03-18 17:16:08 RRViper has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1295 2013-03-18 17:16:27 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1297 2013-03-18 17:18:26 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, im not on the list :(
1298 2013-03-18 17:19:03 <helo> burn
1299 2013-03-18 17:19:08 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: are you running bitcoind?  I woulda thunk you'd be using libbitcoin
1300 2013-03-18 17:19:15 <phantomcircuit> rofl fuck no
1301 2013-03-18 17:19:21 <phantomcircuit> i love amir but lololol no
1302 2013-03-18 17:19:30 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: this affects all 3rd party nodes too O.o
1303 2013-03-18 17:19:31 <SomeoneWeird> that's because you're not important phantomcircuit
1304 2013-03-18 17:19:31 <SomeoneWeird> >.>
1305 2013-03-18 17:20:20 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, im not sure if you've seen this before but i've actually talked at length about how much qc effort would need to go into a third party client before you could be sure it implemented all of the rules correctly
1306 2013-03-18 17:20:48 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: sure.  We've come a long way in the last year, though, with unit tests and Matt's blockchain tester
1307 2013-03-18 17:20:49 <phantomcircuit> the dollar amounts are high enough that i dont see someone writing a client im comfortable with for a long time
1308 2013-03-18 17:21:09 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, and yet there are still edge cases nobody thought about
1309 2013-03-18 17:21:22 <gavinandresen> yup.  Patches welcome....
1310 2013-03-18 17:21:33 cyphase is now known as cyphase_
1311 2013-03-18 17:21:34 <SomeoneWeird> that's inevitable though
1312 2013-03-18 17:21:36 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1313 2013-03-18 17:21:38 <gavinandresen> … especially patches that add unit tests or test tools for edge cases
1314 2013-03-18 17:21:44 <phantomcircuit> SomeoneWeird, that's kind of my point actually
1315 2013-03-18 17:21:49 <SomeoneWeird> i know
1316 2013-03-18 17:21:56 safra has joined
1317 2013-03-18 17:21:59 <SomeoneWeird> but it can happen to anyone
1318 2013-03-18 17:22:01 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, i was actually going to do something about the load time for large wallets
1319 2013-03-18 17:22:07 cyphase_ is now known as cyphase
1320 2013-03-18 17:22:28 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: mmm…. but a wallet re-write is very likely soon
1321 2013-03-18 17:22:37 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I'd talk to sipa about that, as he's redoing wallets a bit
1322 2013-03-18 17:22:38 cyphase is now known as cyphase_
1323 2013-03-18 17:22:39 <phantomcircuit> people using alt clients have all told me they're doing it because bitcoind doesn't scale well to a lot of transactions
1324 2013-03-18 17:22:43 <phantomcircuit> which is pretty much true
1325 2013-03-18 17:22:47 cyphase_ is now known as cyphase__
1326 2013-03-18 17:22:49 <phantomcircuit> sipa, ping?
1327 2013-03-18 17:22:56 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: deterministic keys, moving away from berkeley db, and supporting multisig....
1328 2013-03-18 17:23:05 <SomeoneWeird> SIPA U R NEEDED
1329 2013-03-18 17:23:07 <SomeoneWeird> lol
1330 2013-03-18 17:23:16 <phantomcircuit> SomeoneWeird, did you have coffee today or something?
1331 2013-03-18 17:23:26 <phantomcircuit> who is giving the children coffee
1332 2013-03-18 17:23:31 * phantomcircuit giggles
1333 2013-03-18 17:23:38 BTC_Bear is now known as TurtleSoup
1334 2013-03-18 17:23:43 <SomeoneWeird> have watch only addrs been implemented yet?
1335 2013-03-18 17:23:44 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: I sent you a PM RE: email address for infrastructure list
1336 2013-03-18 17:23:47 <SomeoneWeird> oh shuttup phantomcircuit
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1338 2013-03-18 17:23:52 TurtleSoup is now known as BTC_Bear
1339 2013-03-18 17:23:52 cyphase__ is now known as cyphase
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1341 2013-03-18 17:23:59 <abracadabra> why during a new bitcoin client install does it seem that the newest blocks take forever to come thru, whereas the old blocks come very quickly?
1342 2013-03-18 17:24:23 <SomeoneWeird> checkpoints maybe?
1343 2013-03-18 17:24:24 <abracadabra> or is it all in my mind?
1344 2013-03-18 17:24:35 skinnkavaj has joined
1345 2013-03-18 17:24:41 <phantomcircuit> SomeoneWeird, not directly but you can hack them in by using a random encryption key and then throwing it away
1346 2013-03-18 17:24:42 <abracadabra> last 1400 blocks are taking forever
1347 2013-03-18 17:24:57 <Luke-Jr> abracadabra: old blocks are before SD spammed the blockchain
1348 2013-03-18 17:25:00 <phantomcircuit> abracadabra, older blocks have fewer transactions
1349 2013-03-18 17:25:11 <abracadabra> ah
1350 2013-03-18 17:25:11 <SomeoneWeird> lol sd
1351 2013-03-18 17:25:12 <SomeoneWeird> die
1352 2013-03-18 17:25:14 <Luke-Jr> abracadabra: also, up to the last checkpoint, Bitcoin-Qt skips signature checks
1353 2013-03-18 17:25:32 orblivion has joined
1354 2013-03-18 17:25:39 <abracadabra> kk
1355 2013-03-18 17:25:40 <abracadabra> thx
1356 2013-03-18 17:25:50 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, even the blocks after 193k go slower towards the end
1357 2013-03-18 17:25:54 <phantomcircuit> (rapidly)
1358 2013-03-18 17:26:15 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I assume there's no need for pools to be on crit infra list (redundant with pool list)?
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1362 2013-03-18 17:27:10 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: right.
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1365 2013-03-18 17:31:35 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, is 120k locks the maximum value bdb supports?
1366 2013-03-18 17:31:45 Belkaar has joined
1367 2013-03-18 17:31:58 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: no, I believe it supports as many as you have memory for.
1368 2013-03-18 17:32:09 <Luke-Jr> well, updating 0.8.x.eligius was easy enough - v0.8.1.eligius1 tagged & pushed
1369 2013-03-18 17:32:28 Goonie has left ()
1370 2013-03-18 17:32:58 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: … but the more locks you specify, the more memory you use.  I believe it allocates all of them at startup.
1371 2013-03-18 17:33:15 <phantomcircuit> approximately how much memory per lock
1372 2013-03-18 17:33:17 <gmaxwell> The amount of memory used for locks is surprising.
1373 2013-03-18 17:33:22 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: a lot
1374 2013-03-18 17:33:29 <phantomcircuit> well i have a lot
1375 2013-03-18 17:33:42 <phantomcircuit> server that has nothing but bitcoind running on it
1376 2013-03-18 17:33:44 <FCoin> what do you guys think about picocon and libcoin?
1377 2013-03-18 17:34:05 <gmaxwell> picocon? Cons aren't good even if they're small!
1378 2013-03-18 17:34:09 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: 268301 is what I'm using (safe against 6 deep reorg by malicious miner) and it uses about 100 MB memory more
1379 2013-03-18 17:34:10 <FCoin> i checked out the sc , looks pretty clean to me, is it mature?
1380 2013-03-18 17:34:15 <FCoin> Cons?
1381 2013-03-18 17:34:26 <FCoin> picocoIn
1382 2013-03-18 17:34:27 <phantomcircuit> as a temporary measure im just going to increase the number of locks
1383 2013-03-18 17:34:34 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, only 100 MB?
1384 2013-03-18 17:34:38 <phantomcircuit> that's not a lot
1385 2013-03-18 17:34:42 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: at startup, at least
1386 2013-03-18 17:35:30 <FCoin> would it make sense to do your own locking mechanism with assembler "test and set"
1387 2013-03-18 17:35:38 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: did you look into the set_lg_max and whether that's okay as-is?
1388 2013-03-18 17:36:33 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: no, just tested with increasing locks.  If you have time to look into that, great!
1389 2013-03-18 17:36:53 Guest97068 has joined
1390 2013-03-18 17:37:29 <gavinandresen> … or if somebody else who is determined to stick with pre-0.8 version of bitcoin wants to do that work, great!
1391 2013-03-18 17:37:32 <Luke-Jr> I'm not really sure how I'd look into it :/
1392 2013-03-18 17:37:57 <FCoin> hi,, i looked at block headers and they seem fixed size,.., would it make more sense to use some kind of fix-length record db like fox-pro and equivalent OS locking mechanism?
1393 2013-03-18 17:38:02 <Luke-Jr> guess I'd need to trick bitcoind into doing a 6-deep reorg
1394 2013-03-18 17:38:07 <Luke-Jr> with 1 MB blocks
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1398 2013-03-18 17:38:49 <Luke-Jr> FCoin: I suggest reading the code before continuing to say things that don't really make sense ;)
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1402 2013-03-18 17:39:25 <FCoin> Luke-Jr: in th eprocess, I am reading the picocoin and libcoin codes
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1404 2013-03-18 17:40:42 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, i dont think set_lg_max is an issue
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1439 2013-03-18 18:11:01 <alexwaters> does anyone know where I can find Mike Hearn's PGP public key?
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1445 2013-03-18 18:17:23 <Joost> Is there a working bitcoinj repo somewhere? or someone who can explain me how to get the dependency resolved with maven?
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1447 2013-03-18 18:17:27 <Joost> Im trying to build multibit from source
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1467 2013-03-18 18:43:40 <gmaxwell> ERROR: CDB() : error DB_RUNRECOVERY:  tossing an error opening the BDB  still triggers the gui to tell the user to remove everything except wallet.dat
1468 2013-03-18 18:44:52 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: Hi
1469 2013-03-18 18:45:07 <BTCOxygen> gmaxwell: How many blocks are there on the testnet network ?
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1478 2013-03-18 18:55:22 <JyZyXEL> how do people set up multiple cards in X?
1479 2013-03-18 18:55:32 Bohren has joined
1480 2013-03-18 18:56:32 <BTCOxygen> JyZyXEL: Do you mean multi-card in one rig?
1481 2013-03-18 18:56:38 <JyZyXEL> yeah
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1483 2013-03-18 18:57:02 <BTCOxygen> JyZyXEL: How many cards do you have?
1484 2013-03-18 18:57:07 <JyZyXEL> two
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1486 2013-03-18 18:57:33 <JyZyXEL> i've never had more than one in a single computer so i have no idea how it needs to be set up
1487 2013-03-18 18:57:45 <BTCOxygen> JyZyXEL: Just insert the other card into the rig
1488 2013-03-18 18:57:51 <BTCOxygen> Simple
1489 2013-03-18 18:57:58 <JyZyXEL> im talking about Xorg
1490 2013-03-18 18:58:16 <jotik> JyZyXEL: what cards?
1491 2013-03-18 18:58:24 <JyZyXEL> 5850's
1492 2013-03-18 18:58:36 <jotik> doesn't aticonfig help?
1493 2013-03-18 18:59:07 <JyZyXEL> well maybe if knew some magic arguments, by default it just makes xorg.conf with single card
1494 2013-03-18 18:59:29 <JyZyXEL> --list-adapters shows both
1495 2013-03-18 19:00:15 <BTCOxygen> JyZyXEL: Which miner are you using?
1496 2013-03-18 19:00:16 <jotik> JyZyXEL: aticonfig --help
1497 2013-03-18 19:00:27 <JyZyXEL> cgminer
1498 2013-03-18 19:02:25 hydrogenesis has joined
1499 2013-03-18 19:02:29 <FCoin> !ticker
1500 2013-03-18 19:02:30 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 47.67001, Best ask: 47.78000, Bid-ask spread: 0.10999, Last trade: 47.78000, 24 hour volume: 18682.33413689, 24 hour low: 47.07679, 24 hour high: 47.80000, 24 hour vwap: 47.56057
1501 2013-03-18 19:03:05 <JyZyXEL> perhaps --adapter=all --mgpu-sls=on
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1511 2013-03-18 19:14:19 <ashod> hi again  -- another question.... this time about importprivkey and dumpprivkey
1512 2013-03-18 19:14:26 mappum has joined
1513 2013-03-18 19:15:00 <ashod> i can get the private key of a bitcoin address using dumpprivkey
1514 2013-03-18 19:15:43 <ashod> how can i get the public key from a privatekey ?
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1517 2013-03-18 19:16:46 <sipa> ashod: programmatically, or using RPC?
1518 2013-03-18 19:17:33 <ashod> using json rpc via http
1519 2013-03-18 19:17:40 <sipa> use validateaddress
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1521 2013-03-18 19:17:49 <sipa> that will tell you the public key corresponding to an address
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1527 2013-03-18 19:19:00 <ashod> ok - and when i do importprivkey, it adds the privatekey to my wallet -- i don't see a parameter for importprivkey to specify my account
1528 2013-03-18 19:19:05 alexwaters2 has joined
1529 2013-03-18 19:19:29 <saivann> I opened a pull request for the new bitcoin.org https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/62
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1532 2013-03-18 19:20:38 <saivann> Any thoughts before I merge the pull request?
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1536 2013-03-18 19:22:17 <gmaxwell> saivann: uh. It's vastly improved indeed, but you should absolutely not merge your own pull request within hours of making it— unless its something trivial.
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1540 2013-03-18 19:22:53 <gmaxwell> (my vastly improved is relative to your prior versions)
1541 2013-03-18 19:23:02 <saivann> gmaxwell : perfect
1542 2013-03-18 19:24:15 <sipa> saivann: just looked at the demo server; it's certainly a lot better than the last time i looked!
1543 2013-03-18 19:25:01 <sipa> nice work in any case on the design - i expect people will have comments on the contents still though
1544 2013-03-18 19:25:07 <gmaxwell> saivann: there is some formatting weirdness overall, e.g. clicking between some of the tabs causes the inner panel to change size, kinda weird. Not a showstopper.
1545 2013-03-18 19:25:41 <gmaxwell> It's promoting online wallet services, however. I can't allow that.
1546 2013-03-18 19:25:47 <saivann> gmaxwell : ?? That should not be the case. Is it the white or the blue one?
1547 2013-03-18 19:26:08 <gmaxwell> Not unless the services have made a step forwardward on auditing/insurance/etc.
1548 2013-03-18 19:26:27 <gmaxwell> saivann: click how it works and resources for example.
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1550 2013-03-18 19:27:09 <saivann> gmaxwell : the only thing I see is the right scroll bar that appear or disappear. The menu does not change in size?
1551 2013-03-18 19:27:21 <saivann> I'm happy that you like the recent improvements
1552 2013-03-18 19:27:37 <freewil> when getblocks shows up in debug.log is that your node receiving a request or sending out a request to other nodes for blocks
1553 2013-03-18 19:27:53 <sipa> freewil: receive, afaik
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1555 2013-03-18 19:28:24 <saivann> gmaxwell : I don't intend to make it a fight for blockchain. As I said, I will comply with developers decision. I know that you are against it, and Gavin is for it, many others are either for or against.. If you come to me with a final decision, I will apply it.
1556 2013-03-18 19:28:57 <saivann> (blockchain.info*)
1557 2013-03-18 19:28:58 <gmaxwell> saivann: I though people previously complained about calling transactions free too.
1558 2013-03-18 19:29:06 <gmaxwell> Even the weusecoins video avoided doing that.
1559 2013-03-18 19:29:10 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: tell me again why you think the risks of using the blockchain.info wallet is higher than the risk of downloading Bitcoin-Qt ?
1560 2013-03-18 19:29:35 <gavinandresen> … given that the typical Bitcoin-Qt downloader is NOT going to check gpg signatures....
1561 2013-03-18 19:29:45 <saivann> gmaxwell : there was one comment about that, and about the use of the word "anonymity". I can make some changes if share that opinion.
1562 2013-03-18 19:29:57 <saivann> if you* share that opinion
1563 2013-03-18 19:30:10 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: In those terms— Because bitcoin-qt can be audited, a centeralized service is opaque; and because a centeralized service can change out from under you or be shut down, while software you've downloaded stays downloaded.
1564 2013-03-18 19:30:11 <sipa> it seems the b.i link links to a chrome extension, rather than a pure web wallet
1565 2013-03-18 19:30:14 <freewil> is it normal to see getblocks multiple times like this: http://pastie.org/private/dcrqnnct5afpu5osovaauq
1566 2013-03-18 19:30:23 <sipa> that does make a difference, imho
1567 2013-03-18 19:30:57 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I believe blockchain.info has an auditing tool for their web app.  Their chrome extension is as secure as Bitcoin-Qt, with approximately the same risks, and better backup than we have.
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1571 2013-03-18 19:31:05 <saivann> sipa : Indeed, we link the extension because it is more secure than the online wallet as the javascript is preloaded.
1572 2013-03-18 19:31:33 <gmaxwell> saivann: I can't see how it links the chrome extension?
1573 2013-03-18 19:31:44 <gmaxwell> The hyperlink is "https://blockchain.info/wallet/"
1574 2013-03-18 19:32:02 <saivann> gmaxwell : Oh right, one link hasn't been updated. The two others are up to date
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1576 2013-03-18 19:33:04 <gmaxwell> saivann: there are four links to "https://blockchain.info/wallet/" on that page (including the popups).. but now I see the chrome one at the top indeed.
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1578 2013-03-18 19:33:47 <sipa> anyway, the security concerns with such an extension are very similar to for example the android wallet in the play store
1579 2013-03-18 19:33:55 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Right now nothing prevents someone with PIUK's access from making a change which steals funds. When I checked the chrome extension before all it did was check that the JS matched github.
1580 2013-03-18 19:34:06 <gmaxwell> Has that been changed?
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1583 2013-03-18 19:34:42 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: no idea.  But that's no different from "nothing prevents someone with gavin's access from making a change which steals funds."
1584 2013-03-18 19:34:55 <gavinandresen> … with Bitcoin-Qt / sourceforge...
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1586 2013-03-18 19:35:21 <sipa> in theory there is a difference: gitian
1587 2013-03-18 19:35:27 <sipa> in practice it's probably very limited
1588 2013-03-18 19:35:29 <gavinandresen> in practice… not so much
1589 2013-03-18 19:35:41 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Except that many things do— including the fact that normally all the users of bitcoin-qt aren't driven into rush upgrades. It normally takes weeks for a new release to get wide adoption.
1590 2013-03-18 19:36:21 <gmaxwell> and I dunno about other people but I check the binaries on sourceforge match the normal builds. (TD has this cronned apparently?)
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1595 2013-03-18 19:38:11 <gmaxwell> I'm also concerned that we'd consider putting this up after blockchain.info has been _caught_ with its hand in the privacy jar—  (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131608.140)
1596 2013-03-18 19:38:18 <NilamDoc_> I informed most of the indian miners to upgrade to 0.8.1 and they have started .. 60% miners will finish by tomorrow, the rest within a week
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1603 2013-03-18 19:39:00 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I think you're letting the perfect be the enemy of the pretty-good-and-getting-better-all-the-time
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1605 2013-03-18 19:39:12 <gmaxwell> I mean, the user privacy concerns related to hosted wallets are not just theoretical. That specific service has violated is users trust in recent memory.  Oddly the page says that choosing is important but presents only one option and no guidence about how someone would choose.
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1609 2013-03-18 19:40:28 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I gave a long list previously on evidence I'd like to see there, and I believe only one thing on it has been improved since but at the same time the concerns wrt privacy were validated by an actual breach of users privacy.
1610 2013-03-18 19:40:34 <joe_k> grr, f#. bigint supports bigint ** int, but not bigint ** bigint or bigint * int
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1612 2013-03-18 19:40:54 <sipa> you do _NOT_ want bigint ** bigint :)
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1614 2013-03-18 19:41:22 <joe_k> i dont want bigint ** (2**64-1) either :)
1615 2013-03-18 19:42:12 <gmaxwell> And perhaps I am. But I cannot distinguish how this conversation playing out now would have been any different from mybitcoin. I'd be protesting that it was a centeralized service with no insurance or formal auditing which could change behavior at any time, and you'd point out that perfect is the enemy of good.
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1618 2013-03-18 19:42:34 <gmaxwell> And so that makes me uneasy.
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1624 2013-03-18 19:43:59 <saivann> gmaxwell : What exactly is that story about privacy and blockchain.info, what happened in short?
1625 2013-03-18 19:44:06 <Cusipzzz> gmaxwell: `+111
1626 2013-03-18 19:45:14 <Cusipzzz> saivann: Roger ver went nuts after incorrectly sending back ~4btc to a user. It went to a blockchain.info wallet, so Roger used superuser access to identify the user and named and shamed him on the forums
1627 2013-03-18 19:45:33 <warren> whoa what.  the admins of blockchain actually have access to the secret client-side passphrase?
1628 2013-03-18 19:45:44 <saivann> Cusipzzz : Right, I just found it..
1629 2013-03-18 19:45:56 <gmaxwell> (to be fair— that user appeared to be planning to rip roger off which is unfortunate, I don't have sympathy for the user— but I think the incident does validate concerns)
1630 2013-03-18 19:45:58 <Cusipzzz> warren: read the thread for details, it's a bit foggy, but i was shocked
1631 2013-03-18 19:46:00 <sipa> warren: no (at least not that we know), but they do have all transaction data
1632 2013-03-18 19:46:26 <gmaxwell> warren: No, at least not without brutforcing the unstrenghtened passphrase. But they don't need that to deanonymize their users.
1633 2013-03-18 19:46:35 Jesus is now known as guruvan
1634 2013-03-18 19:46:38 <sipa> warren: if the security measures as presented by b.i are correct, they do not have access to user's private keys
1635 2013-03-18 19:46:44 <gmaxwell> Honestly they could also do that to non-users just simply by looking at access logs by address... "googling yourself problem".
1636 2013-03-18 19:46:52 <sipa> but they do manage their wallets, so they know all addresses and transactions
1637 2013-03-18 19:47:28 <warren> so "blockchain wallets are convenient if you don't care about privacy"
1638 2013-03-18 19:47:41 <warren> might as well use paypal in that case
1639 2013-03-18 19:47:41 <gmaxwell> warren: thats overly simple.
1640 2013-03-18 19:47:42 <Cusipzzz> I don't see any need to give blockchain.info more credence than say blockexplorer.com, wallet.bet, or any of the others.
1641 2013-03-18 19:47:47 <Luke-Jr> I think I'm with gavinandresen on the bc.i thing (but I don't follow how they were capable of infringing on privacy… so dunno)
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1644 2013-03-18 19:48:06 <saivann> gmaxwell : This is clearly not right thinking from him.. but there is a huge margin between stealing all your user funds and a one-person conflict with a customer.
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1646 2013-03-18 19:48:41 <gmaxwell> I can probably be made happy with an apropriate warning, but I don't know how to construct one that doesn't sound defamitory. It would be easier to do if there were multiple things suggested.
1647 2013-03-18 19:48:56 <EvilPete> It also demonstrates they can identify people if/when the feds come knocking with a demand to identify somebody.
1648 2013-03-18 19:49:04 <sipa> saivann: the issue here is that it was apparently very easy for someone who shouldn't need access to private data to do get in
1649 2013-03-18 19:49:13 <gavinandresen> Are there any other mature online wallets that don't hold private keys?
1650 2013-03-18 19:49:35 <gmaxwell> saivann: The point is that the site claimed that you were anonymous— and PIUK often likes to point out that bitcoin-qt users are _less_ anonymous because his site agressively tried to identify txn IPs for non-users.  ... and then it turned out to be less anonymous than people thought.
1651 2013-03-18 19:49:41 <Cusipzzz> gavinandresen: nope
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1654 2013-03-18 19:50:14 <gavinandresen> That's the line for me-- I won't recommend Coinbase, for example, even though they're a great service that I trust isn't a scam, because they hold the keys.
1655 2013-03-18 19:50:25 <gmaxwell> Otoh, there are other ones which are on the road of insurance and independant auditing.
1656 2013-03-18 19:50:29 <gmaxwell> (coinbase)
1657 2013-03-18 19:50:33 <sipa> for me, whether they hold the keys makes little difference
1658 2013-03-18 19:50:36 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: technically, bc.i *does* hold the keys (just encrypted)
1659 2013-03-18 19:50:54 <sipa> they can easily change things from under you (though slightly less easy with the extension) to get access anyway
1660 2013-03-18 19:51:13 <sipa> i'm not entirely against online wallets- i use one myself for small amounts
1661 2013-03-18 19:51:33 <sipa> but just realize that you're exposing yourself for the benefit of convenience
1662 2013-03-18 19:51:37 <freewil> does anyone know of a web-ui that simply connects to a bitcoind instance?
1663 2013-03-18 19:51:41 <Luke-Jr> is there a reason we can't just have a "web wallets" section with a big ugly warning that applies to all fo them?
1664 2013-03-18 19:51:55 <gmaxwell> sipa: agreed on that— I'm certantly not against them in general. But I do not know how to commuicate that serious tradeoff, especailly as its one with major systemic risk.
1665 2013-03-18 19:51:56 <EvilPete> "Don't store more in somebody else's hosted online wallet than you can afford to lose"
1666 2013-03-18 19:52:04 <Luke-Jr> then we're not singling bc.i out at least
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1668 2013-03-18 19:52:24 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: its really not that simple. These services are much more secure against data loss.
1669 2013-03-18 19:52:29 <Luke-Jr> EvilPete: ehh, it's "Don't keep bitcoins that you can't afford to lose (anywhere)"
1670 2013-03-18 19:52:38 <gmaxwell> (although b.i can't recover if you've forgotten your password— a bigger risk than most people think)
1671 2013-03-18 19:52:52 <gavinandresen> neither can we
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1673 2013-03-18 19:53:19 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I didn't intend to raise that as a comparitive, only as a limit to "much more secure against data loss"
1674 2013-03-18 19:55:50 <gavinandresen> How about:  "If you are new to Bitcoin, those wallets are a good place to begin. But don't store more bitcoins than you can afford to lose."
1675 2013-03-18 19:56:02 <Luke-Jr> hypothetical: VendorX has a full node client; we put it on the list. But they also have a web wallet, which they promote from their full node client's webpage. What then?
1676 2013-03-18 19:56:04 <sipa> as a matter of fact, the best type of service w.r.t. data loss is probably a fully centralized holds-your-keys e-wallet site
1677 2013-03-18 19:56:09 <gavinandresen> I think that is good advice until we DO get audited, insured services
1678 2013-03-18 19:56:12 <gmaxwell> There are many other things to discuss about the page... lets not worry about this point now and contemplate a bit. I'll try to come up with some text that I think everyone would agree with.
1679 2013-03-18 19:56:18 <gmaxwell> (along those lines)
1680 2013-03-18 19:56:19 <gmaxwell> bbl
1681 2013-03-18 19:56:29 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: are we moving away from "don't own more bitcoins than you can afford to lose, period" then?
1682 2013-03-18 19:56:36 <joe_k> does importprivkey take base58check or hex?
1683 2013-03-18 19:56:50 <sipa> joe_k: base58 "wallet import format"
1684 2013-03-18 19:57:12 pgp has joined
1685 2013-03-18 19:57:20 <Luke-Jr> sipa: isn't it base58check?
1686 2013-03-18 19:57:25 zbroyar has joined
1687 2013-03-18 19:57:27 <sipa> Luke-Jr: yes
1688 2013-03-18 19:57:41 <joe_k> so its base58check(0x80 + key), or its base58check( base58check( 0x80 + key)) ?
1689 2013-03-18 19:57:41 <sipa> "almost 100% free to use" ... i don't think that's going to be true anymore for long
1690 2013-03-18 19:57:42 <lianj> gavinandresen: its like running your own mail server, beginners and normal people could be way worse of to store their wallet themself
1691 2013-03-18 19:57:56 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: I'd still treat bitcoins like a volatile high-tech stock.  Although our market cap is about to move from the small-cap to mid-cap stock range….
1692 2013-03-18 19:58:01 <joe_k> (reading https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_import_format)
1693 2013-03-18 19:58:03 drapetomano has joined
1694 2013-03-18 19:58:04 <sipa> joe_k: base58check(0x80 + 32_byte_key [+ marker])
1695 2013-03-18 19:58:07 <joe_k> ok
1696 2013-03-18 19:58:19 <sipa> joe_k: where the marker is 0x01 and only present when the corresponding public key is compressed
1697 2013-03-18 19:58:20 <NilamDoc_> New users also cannot understand the technicalities of the bitcoin address and hence it becomes difficult to own their own wallet on their computers / devices. They prefer online wallets and some from India use printed bitcoins from me as a very safe method.
1698 2013-03-18 19:58:29 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
1699 2013-03-18 19:58:53 <joe_k> wtf my computed priv key is 65 hex digits
1700 2013-03-18 19:58:56 <joe_k> MATH ERROR RETRY
1701 2013-03-18 19:59:22 <joe_k> sorry, working through vanity key gen at the command prompt here :)
1702 2013-03-18 19:59:37 <joe_k> with just-ported ecc math that i'm not sure is correct
1703 2013-03-18 19:59:51 <saivann> Or we could use the "you need to know page" which covers all of these advises in details. And add this in bold at the top of the page : "Before you start, be sure to first read<a href="youneedtoknow">what you need to know</a>
1704 2013-03-18 20:00:22 <lianj> joe_k: if you do your own ecc, do it like openssl or there will be surprises
1705 2013-03-18 20:01:19 <NilamDoc_> Bitcoin wallets are something like an email... many hosting companies have their own emails, but they prefer to use their gmail / hotmail even though they know that someone at gmail can look up their emails.
1706 2013-03-18 20:01:28 JDuke128 has joined
1707 2013-03-18 20:01:32 cap2002 has joined
1708 2013-03-18 20:01:33 <saivann> As for the specific warning for online wallets, I'm ok with changing the current one if we find something better
1709 2013-03-18 20:02:27 TD has joined
1710 2013-03-18 20:02:58 <JDuke128> hello , i want to get my bit coin address on linux command line , i tried "bitcoind getinfo" but this doesn't give me active bit coin address?
1711 2013-03-18 20:03:00 <saivann> NilamDoc : Indeed, and I think it's in fact more secure that we introduce online wallets with a proper warning than ignoring them. Because regardless of what we think, people will use online wallets.
1712 2013-03-18 20:03:01 <sipa> saivann: i very much disagree with "Bitcoin is a worldwide democratic consensus"
1713 2013-03-18 20:03:05 BlackPrapor has joined
1714 2013-03-18 20:03:16 <saivann> sipa : I'm listening
1715 2013-03-18 20:03:21 <sipa> saivann: worldwide consensus, yes; democratic: not at all
1716 2013-03-18 20:03:30 <sipa> bitcoin works because everyone verifies the rules
1717 2013-03-18 20:03:40 <NilamDoc_> the currency is virtual, stored online, the value of a btc is online,... even if you store it on your computer or an online wallet... it is still on the web.
1718 2013-03-18 20:03:41 <FCoin> amazon should host bitcoind
1719 2013-03-18 20:03:50 <saivann> sipa : indeed, so that the majority is what defines Bitcoin, just like a democracy? Wrong?
1720 2013-03-18 20:03:51 <FCoin> that would save ppl a lot of pooha
1721 2013-03-18 20:03:54 <sipa> saivann: in a very limit set of cases, it is true that a majority of miners can make change
1722 2013-03-18 20:04:07 safra has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1723 2013-03-18 20:04:10 <sipa> saivann: but for anything substantion, we really need a 100% consensus
1724 2013-03-18 20:04:27 joh______ has joined
1725 2013-03-18 20:04:28 saulimus has joined
1726 2013-03-18 20:04:30 <warren> It's democracy in that the majority can be bought.
1727 2013-03-18 20:04:36 <sipa> saivann: no my point is that it is not a majority that decides; things cannot be changed unless everyone agrees
1728 2013-03-18 20:05:08 <FCoin> +warren, buying out the majority is not economicly sound
1729 2013-03-18 20:05:10 <sipa> of course, since people have a very strong reason to not disagree and use the same system, an "economic majority" can probably push things through
1730 2013-03-18 20:05:26 <sipa> but majority is certainly not "50%" or anything in a democratic meaning here
1731 2013-03-18 20:05:29 cap2002 has quit (Client Quit)
1732 2013-03-18 20:05:37 cap2002 has joined
1733 2013-03-18 20:06:05 <FCoin> we will see how it develops,..,
1734 2013-03-18 20:06:09 <lianj> also, 50% of the miners != 50% or users
1735 2013-03-18 20:06:10 <sipa> "democracy" sounds like any participant can vote for changes to the rules; that is not true: the rules cannot change at all in general
1736 2013-03-18 20:07:00 <FCoin> anyone, its not a singular entity making the decision
1737 2013-03-18 20:07:27 <FCoin> aslong as there is enough redundancy in the decision making
1738 2013-03-18 20:07:34 <sipa> it is also not a majority making decisions
1739 2013-03-18 20:07:37 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin is an autonomy not a democracy, at least the conventional understanding of democracy is that a simple majority rules and bitcoin is clearly not that.
1740 2013-03-18 20:07:58 <sipa> saivann: i'd just remove the word "democratic" there; i agree with the rest
1741 2013-03-18 20:08:09 <FCoin> doesnt need to be, democracies are not the holy grail
1742 2013-03-18 20:08:14 john_____ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1743 2013-03-18 20:08:15 <saivann> sipa : I see your point, though it's clearly more democratic to me. Even a change in the rules technically can be done by 50% or even 40% and that would end up creating a fork.
1744 2013-03-18 20:08:28 <gmaxwell> saivann: it can be done by one person too.
1745 2013-03-18 20:08:33  has quit (Clown|!~clown@static-87-79-93-140.netcologne.de|Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1746 2013-03-18 20:08:34 <gmaxwell> saivann: but he'd be kinda lonely.
1747 2013-03-18 20:08:42 eckey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1748 2013-03-18 20:08:53 <saivann> Ok, I'll remove democratic here
1749 2013-03-18 20:09:17 <Luke-Jr> lol
1750 2013-03-18 20:09:32 <saivann> Are you against the top title "Bitcoin is changing the world of finance, making it more open and democratic" ?
1751 2013-03-18 20:09:45 <TD> i thought that was quite a nice title actually
1752 2013-03-18 20:09:47 <sipa> oh, i didn't see that even
1753 2013-03-18 20:09:47 <gmaxwell> I think thats probably fine.
1754 2013-03-18 20:10:05 <NilamDoc_> Yes, it is, I agree
1755 2013-03-18 20:10:14 <warren> democratic isn't always good, sounds good though. =)
1756 2013-03-18 20:10:23 <sipa> just ftr; i'm not against democrazy at all- but saying that its consensus is democratic is just misleading
1757 2013-03-18 20:10:24 <saivann> warren : indeed :-)
1758 2013-03-18 20:10:28 <sipa> LOI
1759 2013-03-18 20:10:31 <sipa> democraCy
1760 2013-03-18 20:11:11 <NilamDoc_> in democracy, when elected, politics comes in, then the problems of democracy comes in
1761 2013-03-18 20:11:40 <Luke-Jr> even if a majority could change the rules, it'd still be a democratic republic :p
1762 2013-03-18 20:11:50 <gmaxwell> I'd generally prefer a formulation which avoids democratic but in that case— e.g. as a goal it's okay.   Though I'd say "Bitcoin is changing the world of finance, making it more open and freeing it from unjustified trust"  but thats probably too obsecure for a headline. :)
1763 2013-03-18 20:11:59 dvide has joined
1764 2013-03-18 20:12:24 <saivann> Luke-Jr raisded a concern about the use of "Anonymous online payments" in the "individuals" section. I'm fine changing that if you want to share your thoughts. Do we just remove that part? Or change the title, and perhaps the text?
1765 2013-03-18 20:12:59 <EvilPete> Hmm. The news announcement of 0.8.1 and the May 15 deadline is rather low key and could probably do with being stickied in at the top of a few key sub-forums.
1766 2013-03-18 20:13:23 <sipa> how about "Bitcoin is changing the world of finance, by giving you control over your own money" ?
1767 2013-03-18 20:13:30 <gmaxwell> sipa+++++
1768 2013-03-18 20:13:38 alphaguru has joined
1769 2013-03-18 20:13:48 <gavinandresen> ooh.  I vote sipa as our Official Headline Writer
1770 2013-03-18 20:13:55 <sipa> nooooooooooo
1771 2013-03-18 20:13:59 <Luke-Jr> lol
1772 2013-03-18 20:14:03 <saivann> :)
1773 2013-03-18 20:14:09 <gmaxwell> but wait! we need him for useful work.
1774 2013-03-18 20:14:13 <Luke-Jr> lol
1775 2013-03-18 20:14:16 <gavinandresen> damn, right.
1776 2013-03-18 20:14:18 <gavinandresen> I vote we clone sipa
1777 2013-03-18 20:14:24 <gmaxwell> Seconded.
1778 2013-03-18 20:14:26 <sipa> this.clone();
1779 2013-03-18 20:15:00 <Luke-Jr> why don't we just clone him 200 times and take a vacation?
1780 2013-03-18 20:15:11 <MC-Droid> are you scheming to capitalise on the Cyprus thing
1781 2013-03-18 20:15:34 sipb has joined
1782 2013-03-18 20:15:35 <gmaxwell> I can't believe the Cyprus thing.. I thought it was fake news.
1783 2013-03-18 20:15:51 <CodeShark> you don't need that many clones - 200 sipas would be scary...there'd be nothing left for the rest of us to do :p
1784 2013-03-18 20:16:02 <EvilPete> Cyprus.. way to inspire confidence in the banking system guys.
1785 2013-03-18 20:16:05 <gmaxwell> I swear, some crazy bitcoiner's must have bribed the governmment there.
1786 2013-03-18 20:16:13 <sipa> gmaxwell: haha
1787 2013-03-18 20:16:21 <warren> I don't see how the Cyprus plan makes any *sense*.
1788 2013-03-18 20:16:35 <Ry4an> It wasn't their government.  It was EU at large, which is why it's scaring a lot more than cypriots.
1789 2013-03-18 20:16:41 guruvan has quit ()
1790 2013-03-18 20:16:44 <gavinandresen> "Your deposits are insured!"   (wait… no…. just kidding….)
1791 2013-03-18 20:16:46 <Cusipzzz> gmaxwell: lol.. they are stuck, the ECB said they have to come up with $6 Bil EUR, they have no money, so depositors must pay
1792 2013-03-18 20:16:55 <Cusipzzz> to get the bailout
1793 2013-03-18 20:16:59 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: insured, but the payoff is negative.
1794 2013-03-18 20:17:00 toffoo has quit ()
1795 2013-03-18 20:17:08 <MC-Droid> is there ever w more appropriate time for that shitty "bitcoin user unaffected" meme
1796 2013-03-18 20:17:13 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1797 2013-03-18 20:17:27 <gavinandresen> mmmm.   They're saving the bondholders at the expense of depositors; that is unforgivable, in my opinion
1798 2013-03-18 20:17:47 <sipa> http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3tc06n/
1799 2013-03-18 20:17:49 <EvilPete> There's also the perception that Russians keep their cash in Cyprus banks.. that's not helping clarify the situation
1800 2013-03-18 20:18:14 <gmaxwell> Apparently there are some layers to this as there are apparently a lot of foreign interests that use Cyprus as a haven for laundering and tax evasion purposes.. so much of the captured money might be foreigners, as a question of public policy it might even be in the locals self interest
1801 2013-03-18 20:18:17 <MC-Droid> UK has pledged to make cypriot expats whole
1802 2013-03-18 20:18:21 <Cusipzzz> Putin and Co. are not happy, they are still working on the final "plan"
1803 2013-03-18 20:18:28 <MC-Droid> which of course means the uk taxpayer
1804 2013-03-18 20:18:50 <EvilPete> Wasn't part of the plan was that the depositors who took a haircut would get shares in the bank in return?
1805 2013-03-18 20:18:57 * Luke-Jr goes back to trying to do a 6-deep 1 MB blocks reorg unit test <.<
1806 2013-03-18 20:19:00 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: esp since cash is understood to be strictly less risky than bonds— still have all the inflation risks, but no default risks...
1807 2013-03-18 20:19:05 <Cusipzzz> EvilPete: it's not perception, > 50% of deposits in cyprus are russian
1808 2013-03-18 20:20:03 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yup.  The bondholders obviously have more political sway than the depositors.  Gee, surprise, surprise....
1809 2013-03-18 20:20:08 sipb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1810 2013-03-18 20:21:07 <gavinandresen> If I were King, I'd liquidate the Cyprus banks, reimburse depositors first, then bondholders, then equity holders....
1811 2013-03-18 20:21:19 RoboTeddy has joined
1812 2013-03-18 20:21:20 <FCoin> Putin is not pleased
1813 2013-03-18 20:21:49 <MC-Droid> cyprus is a kingdom?
1814 2013-03-18 20:21:57 <FCoin> investing in banks (stocks) is not a riskless enterprise
1815 2013-03-18 20:22:13 <FCoin> but it seems to be made riskless
1816 2013-03-18 20:22:24 <Cusipzzz> gavinandresen: but that makes the ECB look impotent and puts the other euro economies at more risk. IT's interesting thatECB is holding cyprus to the $6 Bil EUR even after they said it will have to come from depositors
1817 2013-03-18 20:22:51 <Cusipzzz> dangerous precedent, could be a bank run in italy, spain, portugal, etc.
1818 2013-03-18 20:23:00 <gavinandresen> Cusipzzz: If I were King, I'd say "okey dokey" :)
1819 2013-03-18 20:23:09 <FCoin> what is more worrysome is that this doesnt solve anything, Cyprus will still remain a very endebted nation
1820 2013-03-18 20:23:10 <MC-Droid> there are no more genuine bank runs
1821 2013-03-18 20:23:18 <gavinandresen> I'm a pull-the-band-aid-off-fast kinda guy.
1822 2013-03-18 20:23:21 <MC-Droid> they just lock the doors at the first whiff
1823 2013-03-18 20:23:29 <FCoin> kick the can down the road
1824 2013-03-18 20:23:31 <EvilPete> "Rule is: #unique txids referenced <= 4,500" - that's exact? default config BDB 0.7.2 will fail at 4501 and accept 4500?
1825 2013-03-18 20:23:32 <Cusipzzz> gavinandresen: would be interesting for sure, but the ECB is trying to keep the house of cards together
1826 2013-03-18 20:23:39 <MC-Droid> and the atm network goes down for "maintenance"
1827 2013-03-18 20:23:52 <gavinandresen> EvilPete: no, that is a conservative estimate
1828 2013-03-18 20:24:06 <saivann> sipa : don't mind if I change "by giving you control over your money" to "by giving you control over your wallet"? We tried to get away from "money" when possible.
1829 2013-03-18 20:24:07 <FCoin> Cusipzzz, its like indiana jones,  the ECB and friends grab all they can before the roof caves in
1830 2013-03-18 20:24:10 <gavinandresen> EvilPete: the real number is somewhere around 4,800
1831 2013-03-18 20:24:50 <FCoin> they are not looking for a solution at all because there is none, and everybody with half a brain knows it
1832 2013-03-18 20:24:53 <EvilPete> gavinandresen: doesn't having 0.8.1 have a different hard limit risk another fork?
1833 2013-03-18 20:24:55 <sipa> saivann: hmm, unsure - i understand the concern about not using money, but "control over your wallet" sounds somewhat stupid - i already am in full control over my wallet :)
1834 2013-03-18 20:25:11 <gavinandresen> EvilPete: yes, that's why the rule isn't being enforced until Thursday.
1835 2013-03-18 20:25:14 <saivann> sipa : Ok, we will see later if that is a real concern
1836 2013-03-18 20:25:33 <sipa> EvilPete: technically, 0.8.1 doesn't do another _hard_ fork
1837 2013-03-18 20:25:33 <gavinandresen> EvilPete: I got more than 50% of the big pools' by hashing power to agree to upgrade by then
1838 2013-03-18 20:25:35 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1839 2013-03-18 20:25:49 <sipa> EvilPete: it's a backward compatible change, both from the point of 0.7 and 0.8
1840 2013-03-18 20:25:55 <EvilPete> gavinandresen: so the plan is to have >51% of hashpower on 0.8.1 to make sure no blocks get into the main chain that aren't acceptable to all?
1841 2013-03-18 20:26:01 <FCoin> this financial debacle can only stengthen BTC like currencies
1842 2013-03-18 20:26:02 <sipa> EvilPete: at least if you're talking about the temporary rule until may 15
1843 2013-03-18 20:26:07 <gavinandresen> EvilPete: yes
1844 2013-03-18 20:26:09 <sipa> EvilPete: may 15 will actually be a hard fork
1845 2013-03-18 20:26:29 gigitrix has joined
1846 2013-03-18 20:26:50 <gavinandresen> I bet it is well past May 15 before a miner creates a forking block...
1847 2013-03-18 20:26:52 <EvilPete> gavinandresen: that's the part that was missing from public info, thanks
1848 2013-03-18 20:27:05 <MC-Droid> youre doing it in may?
1849 2013-03-18 20:27:08 <sipa> gavinandresen: ok "may 15 will be a hard forking change"
1850 2013-03-18 20:27:13 <MC-Droid> whqt happened to 2 years
1851 2013-03-18 20:27:23 <gigitrix> Hey devs, sorry if I'm jumping the gun and you just pushed it but http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/ still defaults to v0.8.0
1852 2013-03-18 20:27:25 <sipa> whether that causes any fork and when is yet to be seen :)
1853 2013-03-18 20:27:27 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: this is just a fix for the 0.8.x thing.
1854 2013-03-18 20:27:31 <gavinandresen> MC-Droid: a bug happened.
1855 2013-03-18 20:27:31 <gigitrix> Should I create a github ticket?
1856 2013-03-18 20:27:43 <Luke-Jr> MC-Droid: we expected to have until 1 MB before a change was needed
1857 2013-03-18 20:28:07 <Luke-Jr> and the bug too, but even if pre-0.8 had been consistent we'd probably need to deal with it anyway
1858 2013-03-18 20:28:29 <gavinandresen> gigitrix: sourceforge bug, or just slowness....
1859 2013-03-18 20:28:36 <MC-Droid> well sooner is better thqn later
1860 2013-03-18 20:28:40 torsthaldo has joined
1861 2013-03-18 20:28:40 <sipa> well, at least the internal inconsistency in <0.8 is a reason for somewhat rushing this hard fork
1862 2013-03-18 20:28:44 <gigitrix> Fair enough, stuck in the internet caching machine I guess.
1863 2013-03-18 20:28:50 <sipa> as the previous situation cannot be considered stable
1864 2013-03-18 20:28:54 <MC-Droid> we should be good up to 1mb blocks then right
1865 2013-03-18 20:28:59 <sipa> yes
1866 2013-03-18 20:29:15 <EvilPete> So, bulk of hashpower on 0.8.1 by march 18th, to  buy time for everyone else to upgrade, so that we can handle valid 1MB blocks without old clients going boom.
1867 2013-03-18 20:29:26 space_cadet has joined
1868 2013-03-18 20:29:26 space_cadet has quit (Changing host)
1869 2013-03-18 20:29:26 space_cadet has joined
1870 2013-03-18 20:29:49 <sipa> i love this: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/1389/how-are-public-private-keys-in-an-address-created
1871 2013-03-18 20:30:08 <sipa> my answer got 10 upvotes, and until a few minutes a go the big number (both in decimal and hex) were _totally_ wrong
1872 2013-03-18 20:30:19 <sipa> i don't know where i got it from- probably a bad copy-paste
1873 2013-03-18 20:30:22 alphaguru has quit ()
1874 2013-03-18 20:30:39  has joined
1875 2013-03-18 20:30:41 <sipa> lesson learnt: always use big numbers, even if they are wrong
1876 2013-03-18 20:31:04 <sipa> s/learnt/learned/ i guess
1877 2013-03-18 20:31:13 <gigitrix> Got it wrong? FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU (I mean FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFBAAE...)
1878 2013-03-18 20:31:23 <EvilPete> sipa: That is generally true, but I work with a guy who annoyingly checks that stuff.
1879 2013-03-18 20:31:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: I keep finding software that has incorrect values for PI.
1880 2013-03-18 20:31:35 ashod has joined
1881 2013-03-18 20:31:47 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1882 2013-03-18 20:32:09 <ashod> does bitcoin have any hard coded ip's or urls that it refernces?
1883 2013-03-18 20:32:13 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: in a meeting once someone presented a document that said that the ethernet broadcast mac address was 0xFUFUFU ... hey.. wait a second thats not hex! — they'd copied it from a vandalized wikipedia article.
1884 2013-03-18 20:32:26 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: do you think the chain fork post-mortem document should become an "informational BIP" ?
1885 2013-03-18 20:32:38 <gigitrix> ashod it references IRC channels and some known hosts I think
1886 2013-03-18 20:32:54 whizter has joined
1887 2013-03-18 20:33:08 <gmaxwell> ashod: it has a table of 500 seed nodes to use as fallback, the irc stuff (which is off by default) ... and www.showmyip.com
1888 2013-03-18 20:33:28 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: That sounds like a reasonable idea to me.
1889 2013-03-18 20:33:34 <ashod> what if i wanted to make a new bitcoin network, starting from scratch - i.e bitcoins are easy to mine as it's early days again  etc,, would this be possible ?
1890 2013-03-18 20:33:37 nsillik has joined
1891 2013-03-18 20:34:00 <gigitrix> ashod: Many have done this, look on the bitcoin forums for Alternate Cryptocurrencies
1892 2013-03-18 20:34:35 <ashod> alternate ,, as in using exactly the same software but on a new network ?
1893 2013-03-18 20:35:07 <gigitrix> ashod: In fact here's details on some of them right now (beware, markets for them are unproven and of course volatile) http://dustcoin.com/mining
1894 2013-03-18 20:35:34 <gigitrix> ashod: They are forks of bitcoin (slightly changed), not just bitcoin itself
1895 2013-03-18 20:36:11 <gigitrix> ashod: some people regard them as cash grabs by the founders, some consider them alternatives, I'll reserve any judgement in this IRC channel.
1896 2013-03-18 20:36:32 <ashod> so modifying the existing bitcoind so that the seed hosts, ircs, IP's are different,, so as to create a new bitcoin network using the same protocol etc would be easy ?
1897 2013-03-18 20:36:40 <saivann> I included the changes we have discussed about bitcoin.org . I'm leaving the pull request open, just feel free comment for any other changes.
1898 2013-03-18 20:36:50 <gigitrix> ashod: But the mining software is generally identical for some of them, you just point to a different pool
1899 2013-03-18 20:36:52 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: that page is kind of distorting because it doesn't list all the failed ones.
1900 2013-03-18 20:36:57 <gmaxwell> oops gigitrix
1901 2013-03-18 20:36:58 <EvilPete> ashod: The other thing the bitcoin forks tend to have is that often somebody pre-mines a ton of stuff to get a head start.  That tends to get called out though.
1902 2013-03-18 20:36:59 <gmaxwell> (stupid tab)
1903 2013-03-18 20:37:12 <gmaxwell> gigitrix: e.g. where is WEEDS and BEERCOIN and LiquidCoin
1904 2013-03-18 20:37:27 <EvilPete> ashod: the other thing is port 8333 - don't use that either.
1905 2013-03-18 20:37:38 <ashod> that;s interesting -.. , i guess you could run bitcoin on a private network, for currency within a large company ?
1906 2013-03-18 20:37:48 <gigitrix> Like I said I am choosing not to get into the politics of it all since this is my first time on the dev channel, want to keep it constructive :) But yes, if you do it stay out of bitcoin's way please :)
1907 2013-03-18 20:38:11 <gmaxwell> ashod: you could but bitcoin is a super inefficient way of doing that, and probably insecure too.
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1909 2013-03-18 20:38:19 <gigitrix> ashod: I was considering an MMO currency using it for instance. It seems a bit wasteful though
1910 2013-03-18 20:38:42 <ashod> ok - just interesting in any case.. -
1911 2013-03-18 20:38:46 <gmaxwell> ashod: the most important things to change are the port and network version bytes.
1912 2013-03-18 20:39:20 <lianj> EvilPete: bitcoin creators got a head start too
1913 2013-03-18 20:39:23 <ashod> so it's truly p2p - no supernodes using some unknown protocol to make bitcoin work - each client is a part of the whole - got it !
1914 2013-03-18 20:39:59 <Luke-Jr> ashod: note most of these forks are used as scams
1915 2013-03-18 20:40:09 <gigitrix> Yeah stay out of bitcoin's way and be ready to be criticised if you intend to use it for a competing currency, some people (myself included) see it as a waste of time
1916 2013-03-18 20:40:17 <helo> ashod: most of bitcoin's novelty lies in allowing a diverse group of untrustworthy participants to agree on the same ordering of transactions. if you have someone that the participants trust, then most of bitcoin is just a waste.
1917 2013-03-18 20:40:18 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you're late. your cue was gigitrix's founder comment abov.e
1918 2013-03-18 20:40:21 <ashod> bit like mastercard, visa networks -
1919 2013-03-18 20:40:36 <ashod> maybe not - talking without thinking
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1921 2013-03-18 20:40:47 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I think a BIP number to represent the fork would be useful
1922 2013-03-18 20:40:51 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: is there a museum of dead altcoins anywhere?
1923 2013-03-18 20:40:52 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: regardless of content
1924 2013-03-18 20:41:15 <gigitrix> ashod: We're all "supernodes" right now. There are ways of making lighter nodes though we don't really need to yet. We will in future
1925 2013-03-18 20:41:48 <Luke-Jr> Electrum, Multibit, etc are non-supernodes
1926 2013-03-18 20:41:57 <gigitrix> ashod: in future some clients will have to be "light" and just "aware" of the network, whereas a standard server would be like the clients are today
1927 2013-03-18 20:42:15 <gigitrix> ashod: But we're a ways off from that at the minute
1928 2013-03-18 20:42:26 <EvilPete> ashod: what gigitrix said. bitcoind is a supernode. Every single one has a complete transaction history that it built itself and validated itself.
1929 2013-03-18 20:42:27 <gigitrix> Ah yes Luke-Jr is correct,
1930 2013-03-18 20:43:36 <gigitrix> And on the main topic BIPs are always good IMHO, they are useful documents to have for the big changes, But I'm not a dev type (just interested)
1931 2013-03-18 20:44:03 <sipa> i suppose a BIP is warranted even just for the temporary march 18 - may 15 rule
1932 2013-03-18 20:44:10 <sipa> that can be the same document
1933 2013-03-18 20:44:10 MC-Droid has quit (Quit: Bye)
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1935 2013-03-18 20:45:54 <Luke-Jr> sipa: meh, the temporary rule is more or less just the historical rule codified IMO
1936 2013-03-18 20:46:09 <Luke-Jr> so, pre-BIP status quo protocol
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1944 2013-03-18 20:51:33 <MC-Droid> someone unban me in bitcoin please?
1945 2013-03-18 20:52:15 <gigitrix> how'd you get banned?
1946 2013-03-18 20:52:53 <MC-Droid> someone doesnt like mildly amusing links tonight
1947 2013-03-18 20:53:38 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: fixed
1948 2013-03-18 20:53:50 joh______ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1949 2013-03-18 20:53:51 <MC-Droid> thx
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1951 2013-03-18 20:55:18 <gavinandresen> sipa gmaxwell : I'm working on -alertnotify code and alert unit tests right now, will work on a BIP for the fork after I finish that unless one of you wants to jump in and do that.
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1954 2013-03-18 20:58:05 <gigitrix> I know it's a long shot, but is there anything "medium skill" that's non safety critical that needs doing that doesn't involve C code and doesn't have a hard deadline on? Like "nice to have" improvement of documentation and such? If so I can devote the odd weekend to such an endeavour.
1955 2013-03-18 20:59:19 <EvilPete> What is "block version 1/2" on http://bitcoinchain.com/ for the pools? is that an indication of who's running 0.8 (multisig?)
1956 2013-03-18 21:00:13 alexwaters2 is now known as alexwaters
1957 2013-03-18 21:00:22 <sipa> EvilPete: block v2 was described in BIP 34
1958 2013-03-18 21:00:23 alexwaters has quit (Changing host)
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1960 2013-03-18 21:00:41 <sipa> EvilPete: and introduced in 0.7.0 or 0.7.1 iirc
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1963 2013-03-18 21:04:05 <helo> gigitrix: i'd guess ~organized testing
1964 2013-03-18 21:04:25 <joe_k> so if I have an ECC pubkey with an 04 on it, is the 04 just a type tag or is it part of the value?
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1966 2013-03-18 21:05:13 <gigitrix> helo: Right, like "human driven" unit tests and stuff in a VM?
1967 2013-03-18 21:05:20 <gmaxwell> joe_k: the former.
1968 2013-03-18 21:05:30 <joe_k> ok
1969 2013-03-18 21:05:43 <gmaxwell> joe_k: it's a tag used by the serialization.
1970 2013-03-18 21:05:58 <joe_k> ok just making sure :)
1971 2013-03-18 21:06:53 <joe_k> and if I understand right, if onCurve(c, pubkey) is false, i messed up
1972 2013-03-18 21:07:05 <joe_k> assuming the pubkey came from somewhere that supposedly knows how to do it
1973 2013-03-18 21:07:19 <joe_k> and c = sep256k1
1974 2013-03-18 21:08:05 <helo> gigitrix: yeah, something like that.
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1977 2013-03-18 21:08:37 <helo> gigitrix: it would probably worth your time to write up your approach and get some dev to say "that wouldn't be a complete waste of your time" ;)
1978 2013-03-18 21:09:01 coolsa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1979 2013-03-18 21:09:32 <helo> without coercing said dev with gifts of flowers and candy
1980 2013-03-18 21:09:37 <gigitrix> helo: Yeah certainly, would be pointless just sucking down dev time for something that I'd only be doing as a hobby without really knowing the guts of bitcoind
1981 2013-03-18 21:10:10 <gigitrix> helo: Thanks for your suggestion, I'll have a think about how to approach it.
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1983 2013-03-18 21:11:04 <gmaxwell> gigitrix: _TESTING_ is what is needed. Including building more testing shims and frameworks, network simulators, load generators. These things can be created in almost any language, so long as they're not a PITA to run.. and have ~no safty concerns.
1984 2013-03-18 21:11:14 <EvilPete> sipa: thanks for the pointer! I was a little confused by following the trail on github as to which releases it was in, but yes, thanks!
1985 2013-03-18 21:11:49 coolsa has joined
1986 2013-03-18 21:11:53 <gmaxwell> For the blockchain we have bluematt's tester which could probably use some more love and attention (and eventually make it so it doesn't need a patched daemon), but we have nothing like it for testing the p2p behavior except the network itself.
1987 2013-03-18 21:12:28 <gigitrix> gmaxwell: So you have nothing that spins up testnet nodes and churns through some txes?
1988 2013-03-18 21:12:54 D34TH has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1989 2013-03-18 21:13:14 <gigitrix> I heard there was a testnet-in-a-box, but tbh my knowledge of bitcoin code is from last July or something when I had a casual look at it all
1990 2013-03-18 21:13:55 <gmaxwell> gigitrix: There is testnet in a box, but it doesn't really do anything but exist. A RPC client that connects to a pair of TIAB nodes and thrashes them with transactions would be interesting.
1991 2013-03-18 21:13:58 <gigitrix> I'll definitely spend some time walking through Github repos, see if anything strikes me as something I can contrib to
1992 2013-03-18 21:14:51 <gigitrix> gmaxwell: Interesting. That was sort of where i was going: send a wide assortment of TXes, sit back, see what happens
1993 2013-03-18 21:14:55 <gmaxwell> But in general, I think testing is a good place where its easy to start and where help is needed and easily accepted. GUI work could also use more love, but needs somewhat more leather skin.
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1995 2013-03-18 21:16:37 <gigitrix> Certainly I'll consider it, sounds like I might have a lot of reading material so don't expect any results, but if I think it's within my grasp I'll set up a github and write something, see what happens
1996 2013-03-18 21:17:49 <gigitrix> Is the testnet-in-a-box project still active? Still worth installing to play around with? Or should I just use a testnet bitcoind to dive into for now?
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2005 2013-03-18 21:21:57 <gmaxwell> gigitrix: there is a current (testnet3 based) testnet in a box.
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2013 2013-03-18 21:27:38 <TD> BlueMatt: poke
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2020 2013-03-18 21:33:31 <gigitrix> looking at the repo now
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2033 2013-03-18 21:45:10 <helo> i'm having trouble thinking of justifications for using TIAB vs normal testnet
2034 2013-03-18 21:45:47 <gigitrix-phone> Right yeah, not hard to get hold of coins for it.
2035 2013-03-18 21:45:50 <gmaxwell> helo: not having to manage ownership of testnet coins.
2036 2013-03-18 21:46:08 <helo> i guess testing very controlled/peculiar sequences of events
2037 2013-03-18 21:46:10 <djoot> does anyone know if the timestamps in the bitcoin blocks are strictly increasing? I mean if a later block says it has a timestamp before the one before it is considered invalid..
2038 2013-03-18 21:46:11 <gmaxwell> helo: and if you want to do high volume tests, not creating a super bloated testnet.
2039 2013-03-18 21:46:20 <gmaxwell> djoot: they are not.
2040 2013-03-18 21:46:31 <djoot> ok, thanks gmaxwell
2041 2013-03-18 21:46:36 <helo> ahh bloat, yeah...
2042 2013-03-18 21:46:37 <gmaxwell> djoot: and such a restriction would open up some minor attacks.
2043 2013-03-18 21:46:38 <Luke-Jr> helo: ASIC minign tests
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2045 2013-03-18 21:47:00 <gmaxwell> djoot: the timestamps are constrained to be greater than the median of the last 11.
2046 2013-03-18 21:47:01 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell talks about bloat on testnet, after uploading a rickroll.. :p
2047 2013-03-18 21:47:01 <gigitrix-phone> There's the advantage of it being 'clinical' but there's also the serendipity of everyone else throwing random stuff at testnet and things breaking all over the place
2048 2013-03-18 21:47:04 zer0def has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2049 2013-03-18 21:47:33 <djoot> thanks again :)
2050 2013-03-18 21:47:43 safra has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2051 2013-03-18 21:47:55 <gigitrix-phone> Personally I'd love to see a beefy package that just runs by itself from genesis block in a deterministic way
2052 2013-03-18 21:48:02 Ant0 has joined
2053 2013-03-18 21:48:20 <Luke-Jr> gigitrix-phone: mining unit tests?
2054 2013-03-18 21:48:30 <gigitrix-phone> But maybe that's too much trouble for too little gain
2055 2013-03-18 21:48:36 <Luke-Jr> includes a set of 110 blocks
2056 2013-03-18 21:48:39 <gigitrix-phone> Yeah, mining and tx
2057 2013-03-18 21:48:47 <Luke-Jr> no, I mean it exists :P
2058 2013-03-18 21:48:51 <gmaxwell> gigitrix: thats why we have bot TIAB and real testnet.
2059 2013-03-18 21:48:53 <gmaxwell> Both are useful.
2060 2013-03-18 21:48:57 <gigitrix-phone> Yeah
2061 2013-03-18 21:49:20 <gigitrix-phone> Sorry, i should do more research before i reinvent stuff
2062 2013-03-18 21:49:28 <helo> what's the second deepest reorg that has been observed on mainnet?
2063 2013-03-18 21:49:28 <Luke-Jr> processing 1 MB blocks is painful ☹
2064 2013-03-18 21:49:33 D34TH has joined
2065 2013-03-18 21:49:33 <gigitrix-phone> As if unit testing is a novel idea hah
2066 2013-03-18 21:49:33 btc123_ has joined
2067 2013-03-18 21:49:42 <Luke-Jr> helo: the one that just happened?
2068 2013-03-18 21:49:49 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, lots of people notice testnet sync choking on the big blocks. :P
2069 2013-03-18 21:50:10 <MC-Droid> just happened?
2070 2013-03-18 21:50:13 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'm trying to extend the mining unit tests to cover 6-deep 1 MB reorg
2071 2013-03-18 21:50:15 <helo> Luke-Jr: i thought the most recent was the deepest, not second-deepest
2072 2013-03-18 21:50:24 <Luke-Jr> helo: I think second-deepest
2073 2013-03-18 21:50:36 <helo> ohhh, right... i wasn't around for the first one
2074 2013-03-18 21:50:44 <gmaxwell> helo: the value overflow fix orphaned a bunch of blocks.
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2081 2013-03-18 21:53:01 <weex> what kinds of problems would it cause to increase the time to coin maturity for the bitcoin software?
2082 2013-03-18 21:54:00 <gigitrix-phone> Is there a need to?
2083 2013-03-18 21:54:03 <gmaxwell> that would be a soft forking rule, I guess. but ::meh::
2084 2013-03-18 21:54:22 <Luke-Jr> decrease would be nicer :p
2085 2013-03-18 21:54:28 <gigitrix-phone> Mefchants can surely choose their own maturity
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2100 2013-03-18 22:07:52 <Luke-Jr> anyone around to brainstorm?
2101 2013-03-18 22:08:05 <Luke-Jr> there may be more to the lock issue than we think :|
2102 2013-03-18 22:08:35 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: having trouble triggering it?
2103 2013-03-18 22:08:52 <Luke-Jr> I set locks to 2500000, and I'm hitting what seems to be a hard limit on the 25th 1 MB block
2104 2013-03-18 22:09:15 tsche has quit ()
2105 2013-03-18 22:09:17 <gigitrix> Still
2106 2013-03-18 22:09:20 <gigitrix> ww]
2107 2013-03-18 22:09:21 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: on the contrary, I'm triggering it in a situation that shouldn't
2108 2013-03-18 22:09:40 <gmaxwell> I'm not shocked to hear there are other limits— I'm also not too concerned about 25 block reorgs on bdb code.
2109 2013-03-18 22:09:48 <Luke-Jr> each block should be indexed/setbest independently - so why is it hitting the lock limit here? :/
2110 2013-03-18 22:09:59 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: this is without ANY reorg
2111 2013-03-18 22:10:11 <Luke-Jr> just 25 blocks consecutive
2112 2013-03-18 22:10:13 <gmaxwell> oh dear. I get what you're saying. — its leaking??
2113 2013-03-18 22:10:20 <Luke-Jr> maybe
2114 2013-03-18 22:10:40 <Luke-Jr> or we're not doing a full commit somehow? I'm not sure
2115 2013-03-18 22:10:57 <Luke-Jr> increasing the lock limits doesn't seem to move where it breaks
2116 2013-03-18 22:11:13 <Luke-Jr> running it in gdb makes it trigger 1 block sooner
2117 2013-03-18 22:11:36 <TD> urgh
2118 2013-03-18 22:11:44 <TD> the stupid thing is, we shouldn't even need locks on the block chain bdb
2119 2013-03-18 22:11:49 <TD> it's not threaded. the docs say locking is optional.
2120 2013-03-18 22:11:57 <Luke-Jr> !
2121 2013-03-18 22:12:06 <Luke-Jr> I wonder if we can just turn them off entirely then
2122 2013-03-18 22:12:21 <TD> it may be possible, but the trick is to avoid doing it for the wallet db, i think
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2124 2013-03-18 22:12:25 <TD> as that one is multi-threaded
2125 2013-03-18 22:12:38 banghouse has joined
2126 2013-03-18 22:12:38 <Luke-Jr> is it? we have a mutex for wallet access..
2127 2013-03-18 22:12:43 <TD> it seemed like a bigger change than just upping the lock limit, but if you say the increased lock limit doesn't actually work ….
2128 2013-03-18 22:13:00 <TD> though if it's leaking in some way how comes it ever worked at all?
2129 2013-03-18 22:13:10 <TD> i mean, how can that happen such that it didn't die with smaller blocks
2130 2013-03-18 22:13:47 <sipa> Luke-Jr: do you see a SetBestChain line for every block?
2131 2013-03-18 22:13:51 <Luke-Jr> I'm also making super-tiny transactions to fill these
2132 2013-03-18 22:13:52 kadoban has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2133 2013-03-18 22:14:00 <Luke-Jr> like, sig=<null>, pubkey=OP_1
2134 2013-03-18 22:14:06 <sipa> shouldn't matter
2135 2013-03-18 22:14:09 kadoban has joined
2136 2013-03-18 22:14:18 <Luke-Jr> sipa: except the last one
2137 2013-03-18 22:14:43 <sipa> Luke-Jr: can i see the code to trigger it somewhere?
2138 2013-03-18 22:15:06 tsche has joined
2139 2013-03-18 22:15:47 <Luke-Jr> http://codepad.org/1hODj0cC
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2141 2013-03-18 22:16:35 <Luke-Jr> removing DB_INIT_LOCK seems to have no effect
2142 2013-03-18 22:18:00 <TD> well, no, removing locking rarely seems to have any effect until you get data corruptions and crashes :)
2143 2013-03-18 22:18:11 <TD> in this case though, agreed that it should be pretty safe.
2144 2013-03-18 22:18:17 <sipa> Luke-Jr: MakeMock overrides the lock limits
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2146 2013-03-18 22:18:24 <Luke-Jr> TD: I mean it doesn't fix it :P
2147 2013-03-18 22:18:33 <sipa> Luke-Jr: to 10000
2148 2013-03-18 22:18:42 * Luke-Jr facepalms
2149 2013-03-18 22:18:45 <TD> oh
2150 2013-03-18 22:18:52 <Luke-Jr> sipa: thanks..
2151 2013-03-18 22:18:56 <sipa> i think we should fix that...
2152 2013-03-18 22:18:57 <TD> phew :)
2153 2013-03-18 22:19:27 <sipa> gavin did tests where he could actually query the number of locks used during execution, so i'l reasonably assured we got it right
2154 2013-03-18 22:19:53 <sipa> Luke-Jr: still, thanks for testing!
2155 2013-03-18 22:20:30 <Luke-Jr> confirmed upping MakeMock locks works
2156 2013-03-18 22:21:08 <Luke-Jr> sipa: should my current approach work, for doing a 6-deep reorg?
2157 2013-03-18 22:21:23 <Luke-Jr> this code is basically just building a set of lots of txids to use ;)
2158 2013-03-18 22:21:29 o2_ has joined
2159 2013-03-18 22:21:31 <sipa> depends how many affected txids there are in the entire reorg
2160 2013-03-18 22:21:50 <Luke-Jr> I'm planning to test the post-fork "no txid limit" scenario
2161 2013-03-18 22:22:06 <Luke-Jr> by shoving as many into 11 blocks as possible
2162 2013-03-18 22:22:28 <sipa> Luke-Jr: 0.8 already does multiply blocks at once during IBD
2163 2013-03-18 22:22:38 <sipa> with large -dbcache, thousands
2164 2013-03-18 22:22:53 <sipa> so i'm not worried about 11 blocks :)
2165 2013-03-18 22:23:04 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I am for backports :P
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2167 2013-03-18 22:23:46 <Luke-Jr> yay, no errors detected creating 1,000,000 txids
2168 2013-03-18 22:24:02 <Luke-Jr> now to spend them.. :P
2169 2013-03-18 22:24:05 <sipa> Luke-Jr: how many affected txids in the entire reorg?
2170 2013-03-18 22:24:28 zz_qwertyoruiop is now known as qwertyoruiop
2171 2013-03-18 22:24:31 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I haven't written that yet
2172 2013-03-18 22:24:34 <sipa> ok
2173 2013-03-18 22:24:51 36DAC21WO has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2174 2013-03-18 22:25:01 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2175 2013-03-18 22:25:13 grau has joined
2176 2013-03-18 22:26:28 <sipa> Luke-Jr: also note that the number of locks needed depends on the size of blkindex.dat
2177 2013-03-18 22:26:43 <sipa> Luke-Jr: so unit test mode may not be ideal to verify edge cases
2178 2013-03-18 22:26:50 <Luke-Jr> ⁈ why
2179 2013-03-18 22:27:02 <sipa> it's 2 locks per page
2180 2013-03-18 22:27:12 whatthe has joined
2181 2013-03-18 22:27:19 <Luke-Jr> so?
2182 2013-03-18 22:27:22 <sipa> if the database is smaller, there will be more txids affected per page
2183 2013-03-18 22:27:30 <sipa> given a constant number of affected txids
2184 2013-03-18 22:27:48 <Luke-Jr> hmm
2185 2013-03-18 22:27:56 <Luke-Jr> so I should be making each input tx at least <page size> large?
2186 2013-03-18 22:28:05 <sipa> won't help
2187 2013-03-18 22:28:23 <Luke-Jr> why not? >:/
2188 2013-03-18 22:28:25 <sipa> it's not the transactions that are stored in the database
2189 2013-03-18 22:28:32 daughterly has joined
2190 2013-03-18 22:28:33 <Luke-Jr> bleh
2191 2013-03-18 22:28:51 <sipa> if you have 43 txouts per transaction, the database entry should be larger than 1 page
2192 2013-03-18 22:28:57 <Luke-Jr> so, throw away every <page size> txns?
2193 2013-03-18 22:29:25 <Luke-Jr> maybe <page size> / <txid size>
2194 2013-03-18 22:29:40 whatthe has quit (Client Quit)
2195 2013-03-18 22:29:42 <sipa> a CTxIndex entry is 12 bytes per txout
2196 2013-03-18 22:29:55 <sipa> but it's one entry per txid
2197 2013-03-18 22:29:57 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2198 2013-03-18 22:30:10 <sipa> so if you have high txouts/txid, you should touch many pages
2199 2013-03-18 22:30:24 toffoo has joined
2200 2013-03-18 22:30:48 <Luke-Jr> huh?
2201 2013-03-18 22:30:48  has joined
2202 2013-03-18 22:31:47 <sipa> well, i'm not even sure about that - the size of indexes also matters
2203 2013-03-18 22:31:58 <sipa> i'd just test by running on a real blkindex.dat instead of a mock db
2204 2013-03-18 22:33:03 <gavinandresen> could start with a real blkindex.dat and then add the test transactions/data to it, yes?
2205 2013-03-18 22:33:08 <sipa> yes
2206 2013-03-18 22:33:17 <Luke-Jr> that's not viable for a real unit test..
2207 2013-03-18 22:33:21 <sipa> agree
2208 2013-03-18 22:33:22 <gavinandresen> right
2209 2013-03-18 22:33:31 <Luke-Jr> even if a real blkindex.dat were available, the difficulty is too high
2210 2013-03-18 22:33:44 <sipa> oh, i don't mean using a real _chain_
2211 2013-03-18 22:33:50 <gavinandresen> I suppose you could create 1.7 GB of random fake entries...
2212 2013-03-18 22:34:05 <gavinandresen> you'll never get a txid collision, so that'd probably work
2213 2013-03-18 22:34:24 <gavinandresen> but even creating 1.7 gb of stuff in a unit test isn't really viable
2214 2013-03-18 22:34:35 <sipa> indeed
2215 2013-03-18 22:34:42 <sipa> i'd just use large txindex entries
2216 2013-03-18 22:34:47 gdoteof has joined
2217 2013-03-18 22:34:53 <gdoteof> did the -keypool option go away?
2218 2013-03-18 22:34:56 <sipa> no
2219 2013-03-18 22:35:21 <Luke-Jr> sipa: so just throw <page size> / 12 dummy outputs per input tx?
2220 2013-03-18 22:35:49 <gdoteof> maybe ia m dumb then?  i did ./bitcoin-qt -keypool 10000 and my wallet is the same size as it is if i don't run it at all
2221 2013-03-18 22:36:08 <sipa> gdoteof: is it encrypted?
2222 2013-03-18 22:36:27 <Luke-Jr> gdoteof: you need an =.. so -keypool=50000
2223 2013-03-18 22:36:35 <gdoteof> oh
2224 2013-03-18 22:36:36 <sipa> oh, right
2225 2013-03-18 22:37:01 <gdoteof> ah.  this time it is clearly working
2226 2013-03-18 22:37:07 <gdoteof> 50k why not!
2227 2013-03-18 22:37:07 <Luke-Jr> yay for counter-standard CLI options that silently ignores errors! :P
2228 2013-03-18 22:37:43 <Luke-Jr> gdoteof: why not = because it'll be obsolete soon we hope
2229 2013-03-18 22:38:06 <gdoteof> Luke-Jr: what do you mean
2230 2013-03-18 22:38:09 <gdoteof> what will be obsolete
2231 2013-03-18 22:38:14 <Luke-Jr> keypool
2232 2013-03-18 22:38:15 cyphurnz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2233 2013-03-18 22:38:16 <sipa> once all higher-priority things are done, i plan to fix that options mess :p
2234 2013-03-18 22:38:28 <sipa> somewhere the next century
2235 2013-03-18 22:38:31 lodse has joined
2236 2013-03-18 22:38:32 cyphurnz has joined
2237 2013-03-18 22:38:50 <gdoteof> Luke-Jr: well why idea here is to have a hot wallet that i can backup in a few places that i don't have to touch for a couple years
2238 2013-03-18 22:38:58 <gdoteof> s/why/my
2239 2013-03-18 22:39:13 <sipa> gdoteof: i assume luke is talking about deterministic wallets which would also solve that
2240 2013-03-18 22:39:31 <gdoteof> i see.
2241 2013-03-18 22:40:19 <gdoteof> is that basically having a unique key from which all subsequent addresses will be derived
2242 2013-03-18 22:40:52 <sipa> indeed
2243 2013-03-18 22:40:56 <sipa> so a backup lasts forever
2244 2013-03-18 22:41:09 <sipa> at least, for cases of access to coins
2245 2013-03-18 22:41:16 <sipa> wallets contain more than just keys
2246 2013-03-18 22:41:55 abracadabopoulos has joined
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2248 2013-03-18 22:42:10 abracadabopoulos is now known as abracadabra
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2250 2013-03-18 22:42:17 abracadabra has joined
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2257 2013-03-18 22:45:58 jzk has left ()
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2259 2013-03-18 22:46:51 <gdoteof> well 10k it is then
2260 2013-03-18 22:47:50 daughterly has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2261 2013-03-18 22:47:53 <gdoteof> so wallet.dat is not a textfile?  it appears to be binary when i open it in vim
2262 2013-03-18 22:48:36 <Luke-Jr> no idea why you'd expect a textfile
2263 2013-03-18 22:49:02 <Luke-Jr> [22:13:50] <Luke-Jr> sipa: so just throw <page size> / 12 dummy outputs per input tx?
2264 2013-03-18 22:49:02 CaptainBlaze has joined
2265 2013-03-18 22:49:30 <gdoteof> idk.  i thought it would just be a list of addresses with private keys and tx info
2266 2013-03-18 22:51:18 <TD> keys and tx info are all binary data structures
2267 2013-03-18 22:51:30 <TD> why would they be stored as text?
2268 2013-03-18 22:51:54 <gdoteof> TD: because that's how i think of them--is the only reasonable reason i can come up with
2269 2013-03-18 22:52:00 owowo is now known as owowodopolous
2270 2013-03-18 22:52:20 <flyingkiwiguy> Luke-Jr: any chance you can do a breakdown by version of testnet nodes?
2271 2013-03-18 22:52:42 <Luke-Jr> flyingkiwiguy: no, that'd be a waste of time
2272 2013-03-18 22:53:19 joe_k1 has joined
2273 2013-03-18 22:54:25 Joost has quit (Quit: Joost)
2274 2013-03-18 22:54:33 joe_k has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2275 2013-03-18 22:55:35 sebuba has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
2276 2013-03-18 22:56:07 <gdoteof> is simply copying wallet.dat sufficient to back it up or should i sue the command line backupwallet
2277 2013-03-18 22:56:37 <Luke-Jr> gdoteof: use backupwallet
2278 2013-03-18 22:56:47 <Luke-Jr> gdoteof: while the client is running, wallet.dat may be unstable
2279 2013-03-18 22:57:00 <Luke-Jr> or if it crashes
2280 2013-03-18 22:59:15 <gdoteof> but if the client isn't running, it makes no difference, or i should still use it
2281 2013-03-18 22:59:15 <TD> does bitcoind handle SIGTERM?
2282 2013-03-18 22:59:23 <sipa> yes
2283 2013-03-18 23:00:01 rdponticelli has joined
2284 2013-03-18 23:00:25 rdponticelli is now known as Guest32993
2285 2013-03-18 23:01:44 <TD> sipa: all i see it do is set a variable. it doesn't call Shutdown() anywhere
2286 2013-03-18 23:02:44 <gdoteof> okay.  so i tried to do ./bitcoind backupwallet /path/to/backupfolder
2287 2013-03-18 23:02:50 <gdoteof> and it told me tot create a bitcoin.conf
2288 2013-03-18 23:02:59 <gdoteof> so i made one with a rpcuser and rpcpass
2289 2013-03-18 23:03:07 <gdoteof> and now, i get error: couldn't connect to server
2290 2013-03-18 23:03:21 <sipa> TD: please sit down, and don't get a heart attack
2291 2013-03-18 23:03:24 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
2292 2013-03-18 23:03:32 <sipa> TD: the message handler thread polls that variable
2293 2013-03-18 23:03:41 <weex> gdoteof: run bitcoind & first, then you can do that
2294 2013-03-18 23:03:51 <TD> i thought that might be the answer
2295 2013-03-18 23:03:55 <gmaxwell> "Data races are our friends"
2296 2013-03-18 23:04:04 <TD> not that you can do much better in a signal handler
2297 2013-03-18 23:04:06 <sipa> well, it's very ugly, but it is safe
2298 2013-03-18 23:04:27 <sipa> indeed, can't do much in a signal handler
2299 2013-03-18 23:04:41 <Luke-Jr> sipa: plz 2 answer? XD
2300 2013-03-18 23:05:01 <sipa> Luke-Jr: ?
2301 2013-03-18 23:05:01 <gdoteof> weex: i did ./bitcoind -daemon -server=1
2302 2013-03-18 23:05:13 daughterly has joined
2303 2013-03-18 23:05:21 <gdoteof> and it says "Bitcoin server starting"
2304 2013-03-18 23:05:25 <gdoteof> now, i do
2305 2013-03-18 23:05:41 <Luke-Jr> [22:13:50] <Luke-Jr> sipa: so just throw <page size> / 12 dummy outputs per input tx?
2306 2013-03-18 23:05:49 <gdoteof> ./bitcoind -rpcuser=user -rpcpassword=password backupwallet /path/to/backupfolder
2307 2013-03-18 23:06:15 <sipa> Luke-Jr: yes- i believe the default page size is 512 bytes (there may be some bdb tool to check...), and a CTxIndex entry consumes 12 bytes per txout
2308 2013-03-18 23:06:34 <Luke-Jr> sipa: wait, page != memory page? :/
2309 2013-03-18 23:06:43 <sipa> no
2310 2013-03-18 23:07:04 FredEE has joined
2311 2013-03-18 23:07:08 zer0def has joined
2312 2013-03-18 23:08:07 <gmaxwell> sipa: In plain C the compiler is actually permitted to write to memory when performing a looks-atomic read, and code like this actually gets generated sometimes. I believe that C++11's memory model changes fixes this. So benign tests are less safe than you might think.
2313 2013-03-18 23:08:30 swhitt has joined
2314 2013-03-18 23:09:15 <sipa> oh wow
2315 2013-03-18 23:09:18 <gdoteof> but i still get cant connect to server
2316 2013-03-18 23:09:31 <sipa> gdoteof: is it running?
2317 2013-03-18 23:09:45 <gmaxwell> e.g. a common case is when you reference some global twice in a function. The compiler loads it into a register for the first use, then says "crap, register pressure" and _spills_ it back because the spill behavior is at some deeper optimization level.
2318 2013-03-18 23:10:14 <gmaxwell> And so you can have things like read=0  write=1 (phantom write=0) read=0.
2319 2013-03-18 23:12:19 Guest32993 has quit (Quit: Out.)
2320 2013-03-18 23:13:03 rdponticelli_ has joined
2321 2013-03-18 23:13:06 RBecker is now known as rbecker
2322 2013-03-18 23:13:10 stanley has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2323 2013-03-18 23:13:24 <gmaxwell> or even more crazy, if the compiler has read a value into a register, it's permitted to spill _whatever the @#$@# it wants_ into that memory at least for the duration of some local analysis window which it completely controls. Though I've never actually seen that happen.
2324 2013-03-18 23:14:08 <sipa> someone should make a C compiler from hell
2325 2013-03-18 23:14:32 perhapstired has joined
2326 2013-03-18 23:14:34 <sipa> which does everything it is technically allowed to, in as arbitrary possible ways
2327 2013-03-18 23:14:42 <sipa> ... does a char need to be 8 bits?
2328 2013-03-18 23:15:21 <egecko> depends on how many characters you need ;)
2329 2013-03-18 23:15:35 <perhapstired> I have a question, if each node is an IP address, is there an issue with sending and receiving bitcoin in different wallets on the same IP?
2330 2013-03-18 23:15:46 <gmaxwell> It can be >8 bits, and actually is on some chips I code for.
2331 2013-03-18 23:16:10 <gmaxwell> (TMS320C5x, char==short==int==16 bits)
2332 2013-03-18 23:16:25 <egecko> 16 bits for unicode support probably
2333 2013-03-18 23:16:39 <gmaxwell> lol. No. It's a DSP. "Everything is a sample!"
2334 2013-03-18 23:16:52 <egecko> ah
2335 2013-03-18 23:17:08 <gmaxwell> But no worries, it can perform saturating multiplies on your 16 bit chars really fast!
2336 2013-03-18 23:17:10 <sipa> perhapstired: except for the fact that you'll need to run one on a non-standard port, and other nodes tend to prefer connecting to standard nodes
2337 2013-03-18 23:17:19 <egecko> perhapstired - i know the bitcoind only natively manages a single wallet
2338 2013-03-18 23:17:26 rdponticelli_ has quit (Client Quit)
2339 2013-03-18 23:17:28 <sipa> egecko: for now!
2340 2013-03-18 23:17:30 joe_k1 is now known as joe_k
2341 2013-03-18 23:17:57 * egecko scampers away to find something to take to make him forget his tooth
2342 2013-03-18 23:18:01 <egecko> i hate being poor.
2343 2013-03-18 23:18:13 rdponticelli_ has joined
2344 2013-03-18 23:18:29 <gmaxwell> http://compcert.inria.fr/man/manual004.html "Running ccomp -interp -all nondet.c shows the two possible outcomes for this program: "  ... too bad it's only really usable on toy programs.
2345 2013-03-18 23:19:12 lodse has quit ()
2346 2013-03-18 23:19:52 BTCOxygen has joined
2347 2013-03-18 23:20:57 <sipa> wait... a() + b() + c() doesn't guarantee a,b,c :S
2348 2013-03-18 23:20:57 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2349 2013-03-18 23:21:03 * sipa learns something every day
2350 2013-03-18 23:21:17 [\\\] has joined
2351 2013-03-18 23:21:54 <gmaxwell> oh you didn't know that?
2352 2013-03-18 23:22:33 <sipa> no
2353 2013-03-18 23:22:46 <gmaxwell> You may enjoy this http://www.pvv.org/~oma/DeepC_slides_oct2011.pdf  (I don't recall if it covers that one, but it has a bunch of corner cases in it)
2354 2013-03-18 23:23:12 luke-jr has quit (otg!~luke-jr@173.170.142.26|Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2355 2013-03-18 23:23:34 <perhapstired> egecko- what about bitcoin-qt?
2356 2013-03-18 23:23:43 <gmaxwell> It does, in fact.
2357 2013-03-18 23:23:50 <Luke-Jr> am I allowed to add a global fSkipPOW for unit test? <.<
2358 2013-03-18 23:23:52 rdponticelli_ has quit (Quit: Out.)
2359 2013-03-18 23:23:58 Guest9061 has joined
2360 2013-03-18 23:24:08 <perhapstired> So when you want to transfer bitcoins from wallets to wallets for security purposes, what do you do?
2361 2013-03-18 23:24:11 Guest9061 is now known as SynOps
2362 2013-03-18 23:24:22 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I've often tested with that locally.
2363 2013-03-18 23:24:40 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i don't mind
2364 2013-03-18 23:25:27 SynOps has left ()
2365 2013-03-18 23:26:46 <gmaxwell> sipa: I also suggest reading http://flash-gordon.me.uk/ansi.c.txt or at least reading every place the word 'unspecified' and 'undefined' shows up— almost all of that stuff is still true in C++ and the ansi c spec is actually accessible to mortals.
2366 2013-03-18 23:27:05 rdponticelli_ has joined
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2368 2013-03-18 23:28:21 rdponticelli_ is now known as rdponticelli
2369 2013-03-18 23:28:51 rdponticelli is now known as Guest31386
2370 2013-03-18 23:29:36 <sipa> oh my - only the first 6 characters of a symbol name with external linkage are required to be significant? :o
2371 2013-03-18 23:31:06 <gmaxwell> There are a bunch of halarious weird limits... like compilers can reject sources with lines over 509 characters.
2372 2013-03-18 23:31:34 <gmaxwell> Many of them don't actually show up in modern compilers, but some of them do.
2373 2013-03-18 23:32:20 kerum has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2374 2013-03-18 23:32:36 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
2375 2013-03-18 23:34:22 <saivann> OK guys, another try. What do you think about this approach : http://174.142.20.146/en/choose-your-wallet
2376 2013-03-18 23:34:25 Guest31386 has quit (Quit: Out.)
2377 2013-03-18 23:34:56 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2378 2013-03-18 23:35:02 <Luke-Jr> AFAIK My Wallet stores your wallet on the server
2379 2013-03-18 23:35:21 rdponticelli_ has joined
2380 2013-03-18 23:35:41 <Luke-Jr> and it's not a matter of "maximum privacy" - it's that My Wallet's privacy is *below standard expectations*
2381 2013-03-18 23:36:27 <saivann> Luke-Jr : Yes, we can change that. I am refering to what I did to my wallet at the bottom of the page
2382 2013-03-18 23:36:58 daughterly has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2383 2013-03-18 23:37:26 <gmaxwell> saivann: oh. wow.  Some wordsmithing needed but I think I could go for something like that...— a disclaimer that clicking triggers showing you the sites.
2384 2013-03-18 23:37:29 <Luke-Jr> saivann: IMO, MtGox's web wallet is pretty secure
2385 2013-03-18 23:37:54 <gmaxwell> And behind such a disclaimer we should show more services.
2386 2013-03-18 23:38:00 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2387 2013-03-18 23:38:03 <Luke-Jr> also, please don't use "Blockchain" to refer to blockchain.info :/
2388 2013-03-18 23:38:07 <saivann> gmaxwell : Yeah, please fix my horrible sentence, I only wanted to show the general idea
2389 2013-03-18 23:38:12 bitafterbit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2390 2013-03-18 23:38:18 <saivann> Luke-Jr : Right
2391 2013-03-18 23:38:28 <tcatm> saivann: why target="_blank"?
2392 2013-03-18 23:38:37 <sipa> it sounds a bit strange about making an assessment whether a particular site is safe - but i like the type of warning
2393 2013-03-18 23:38:50 <saivann> tcatm : To open it in another tabs, and keep the current page open
2394 2013-03-18 23:39:27 <tcatm> You shouldn't do that nowadays. Modern browser let the user decide where to open the page.
2395 2013-03-18 23:39:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: it's almost a bit hopeless— I think the best it can do is tell people there are issues, and hopefully if they have a ton of coin they'll think carefully and behave prudently. What people want is some authority to just tell them what to do "use this one, its safe"...
2396 2013-03-18 23:39:46 <saivann> Luke-Jr suggested that we list them all with a huge warning.  That could be it. Or we can just stick to blockchain.info.. All up to you :-)
2397 2013-03-18 23:39:59 jgarzik_ is now known as jgarzik
2398 2013-03-18 23:40:05 <Luke-Jr> tcatm: I disagree
2399 2013-03-18 23:40:15 <saivann> tcatm : No problem, I'll remove them everywhere
2400 2013-03-18 23:40:21 <Luke-Jr> saivann: the Bitcoin-Qt page is missing numerous stable versions in the version history fyi
2401 2013-03-18 23:40:29 daughterly has joined
2402 2013-03-18 23:40:46 <gmaxwell> saivann: I think if we're going to have a warning then we can and should list more than one. Can because we can have a lower safty standard once there is a warning, and should because we shouldn't sound like we're warning about just one site— also because its not good for the economy to drive traffic to only a small number of sites.
2403 2013-03-18 23:40:53 mocfive has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2404 2013-03-18 23:41:21 <saivann> Luke-Jr, I don't see.. http://bitcoin.org/news.html  http://192.168.1.100/en/version-history
2405 2013-03-18 23:41:33 <Luke-Jr> saivann: yes, news != version history
2406 2013-03-18 23:41:51 <Luke-Jr> saivann: once 0.7.0 is released, 0.6.x releases don't get news articles for example
2407 2013-03-18 23:42:35 <sipa> meh, if you really want that, put it under a "backports" section or so
2408 2013-03-18 23:43:18 <saivann> Luke-Jr, ah I see, is it really needed? Or would you want another title?
2409 2013-03-18 23:43:43 <Luke-Jr> saivann: perhaps another title is easiest
2410 2013-03-18 23:43:53 <saivann> Any suggestion?
2411 2013-03-18 23:44:12 <Luke-Jr> News? :p
2412 2013-03-18 23:44:12 <BlueMatt> anyone have some free time to fix block tester for 0.8.1 for me :)?
2413 2013-03-18 23:44:19 <saivann> :)
2414 2013-03-18 23:44:32 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2415 2013-03-18 23:44:36 <Luke-Jr> considering News includes network-related announcements/alerts, tying it to Bitcoin-Qt might not be best
2416 2013-03-18 23:44:57 <tcatm> saivann: The fontsizes on the index page look bad...
2417 2013-03-18 23:45:13 <saivann> Replacing "Show version history" there by news does not make sense in my opinion http://192.168.1.100/en/download
2418 2013-03-18 23:45:37 B0g4r7 has joined
2419 2013-03-18 23:46:00 <saivann> But I can replace the title only on the "Version history" page itself
2420 2013-03-18 23:46:10 <saivann> tcatm : Any idea on improving this?
2421 2013-03-18 23:46:16 <tcatm> I'd suggest porting all new content to the existing design.
2422 2013-03-18 23:47:00 <tcatm> There's a reason I went with a CSS framework where most typographic features were designed to look good instead of reinventing everything.
2423 2013-03-18 23:47:33 axhlf has joined
2424 2013-03-18 23:48:20 protus has joined
2425 2013-03-18 23:48:26 <sipa> meh, looks good to me
2426 2013-03-18 23:48:31 <saivann> tcatm : Can't we import more of your CSS rules in the new version instead? I mean, I like the previous layout. But I changed it because the improvements I wanted to make didn't fit in it.
2427 2013-03-18 23:49:27 <saivann> tcatm : But I agree that the index page can be improved. I'm not 100% satisfied by it.
2428 2013-03-18 23:49:31 <tcatm> It's not about importing CSS rules. It's about using consistent margins, font sizes, whitespace, lineheight and so on.
2429 2013-03-18 23:50:00 <BlueMatt> I still dont like the buttons hanging off the side of the background
2430 2013-03-18 23:50:13 whizter has quit ()
2431 2013-03-18 23:51:23 <saivann> tcatm : I agree on using consistent styles. Yet, I don't see why we can't do that with the new one?
2432 2013-03-18 23:51:29 Atlantic777 has joined
2433 2013-03-18 23:52:17 <tcatm> saivann: Tweaking the current site to look like your version would be pretty simple, whereas getting everything in your css right would be quite some work.
2434 2013-03-18 23:52:30 <Luke-Jr> "unable to allocate space from the buffer cache" <-- what does this mean? :/
2435 2013-03-18 23:53:43 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
2436 2013-03-18 23:53:54 <sipa> Luke-Jr: what tells you that, and when?
2437 2013-03-18 23:53:58 lodse has joined
2438 2013-03-18 23:54:01 <tcatm> The current layout can be trivially tweaked to look nice on mobile devices, too.
2439 2013-03-18 23:54:12 cads has joined
2440 2013-03-18 23:54:20 <Luke-Jr> sipa: on block 510 of the same old block algo
2441 2013-03-18 23:55:51 flug has joined
2442 2013-03-18 23:59:02 <sipa> Luke-Jr: is that the mock db?
2443 2013-03-18 23:59:07 <saivann> tcatm : Really, I won't oppose if you do something better with what I've done so far. But I can't see what you exactly have in mind. The new website is actually build upon the previous one and share a lot of code. At this point, I'm not sure if importing your CSS or porting my site to your layout are really different..
2444 2013-03-18 23:59:09 <sipa> maybe that is limited in size
2445 2013-03-18 23:59:24 <Luke-Jr> sipa: yes
2446 2013-03-18 23:59:39 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it's still odd - it got through over 300 blocks that were just like this one
2447 2013-03-18 23:59:45 drapetomano has joined
2448 2013-03-18 23:59:47 <Luke-Jr> or you mean the actual db…