1 2013-03-19 00:00:06 <sipa> the mockdb is held in ram, afaik
   2 2013-03-19 00:00:14 <Luke-Jr> right.. maybe
   3 2013-03-19 00:01:40 <tcatm> saivann: Yeah, well. I've already did the current design. Why would you want to replace it completely instead of gradually enhancing it?
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   6 2013-03-19 00:01:56 <sipa> tcatm: because writing is easier than reading
   7 2013-03-19 00:01:59 <gavinandresen> oh wow:  http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/nr/pdf/20130318.pdf
   8 2013-03-19 00:02:56 <saivann> tcatm : Only because there are a lot of changes in one shot. And I felt I could not play well with the previous layout.
   9 2013-03-19 00:04:06 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html
  10 2013-03-19 00:04:16 <saivann> tcatm : I don't intend to break things uselessly, I thought it was appropriate in that case. But I still kept everything I could.
  11 2013-03-19 00:04:18 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: yeah, reading that now....
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  14 2013-03-19 00:06:23 <gritcoin> " A person must exchange the currency of two or more countries to be considered a dealer in foreign exchange.19 Virtual currency does not meet the criteria to be considered "currency" under the BSA, because it is not legal tender. Therefore, a person who accepts real currency in exchange for virtual currency, or vice versa, is not a dealer in foreign exchange under FinCEN's regulations."
  15 2013-03-19 00:06:57 <sipa>  A person that creates units of this convertible virtual currency and uses it to purchase real or virtual goods and services is a user of the convertible virtual currency and not subject to regulation as a money transmitter.
  16 2013-03-19 00:07:23 <gritcoin> "By contrast, a person that creates units of convertible virtual currency and sells those units to another person for real currency or its equivalent is engaged in transmission to another location and is a money transmitter."
  17 2013-03-19 00:07:23 patrickr has joined
  18 2013-03-19 00:07:26 <gritcoin> okay, done pasting
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  20 2013-03-19 00:08:33 <doublec> so someone who mines and sells their coins is a money transmitter?
  21 2013-03-19 00:08:34 <gritcoin> They need to clarify the meaning of "creates" in my last quote.
  22 2013-03-19 00:08:47 <weex> doublec: that's how i read it
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  27 2013-03-19 00:09:27 <gritcoin> I don't think the miner creates the currency. I think the network creates the currency and the miner just knows how to spend it.
  28 2013-03-19 00:09:36 <daughterly> " A person that creates units of this convertible virtual currency and uses it to purchase real or virtual goods and services is a user of the convertible virtual currency and not subject to regulation as a money transmitter."
  29 2013-03-19 00:09:38 <gavinandresen> There are several exemptions from being a "money transmitter" that also apply, though-- certain dollar limits, if I recall correctly
  30 2013-03-19 00:10:02 <gritcoin> gavinandresen: "FinCEN's regulations provide that whether a person is a money transmitter is a matter of facts and circumstances. The regulations identify six circumstances under which a person is not a money transmitter, despite accepting and transmitting currency, funds, or value that substitutes for currency. 31 CFR § 1010.100(ff)(5)(ii)(A)-(F). "
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  33 2013-03-19 00:11:23 <daughterly> two different kinds of virtual currency, centralized vs. de-centralized.  mining / creating bitcoin just means you're a user only
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  51 2013-03-19 00:30:18 <Luke-Jr> http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/pdf/FIN-2013-G001.pdf direct link
  52 2013-03-19 00:30:24 <Luke-Jr> daughterly: unless you sell it maybe
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  54 2013-03-19 00:31:01 <daughterly> luke-jr from the looks of it, if you sell it you are a transmitter and must register
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  59 2013-03-19 00:32:30 <daughterly> i skipped over that part too quickly first read through
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  61 2013-03-19 00:33:35 <gmaxwell> De-Centralized Virtual Currencies [...]
  62 2013-03-19 00:33:36 <gmaxwell> "A person that creates units of this convertible virtual currency
  63 2013-03-19 00:33:36 <gmaxwell> and uses it to purchase real or virtual goods and services
  64 2013-03-19 00:33:36 <gmaxwell> is a user of the convertible virtual currency and not subject to
  65 2013-03-19 00:33:36 <gmaxwell> regulation as a money transmitter."
  66 2013-03-19 00:33:38 <gmaxwell> woot.
  67 2013-03-19 00:33:46 <Eleuthria> By contrast, a person that  creates units of convertible virtual currency and sells those units to another person for real currency or its equivalent is engaged in transmiss ion to another location and is a money transmitter .
  68 2013-03-19 00:33:48 <gavinandresen> mmm.  Reads to me like Fincen thinks that US-based miners fit the definition of "money transmitters", but I am Not a Lawyer.
  69 2013-03-19 00:33:51 <Eleuthria> That part has me a bit worried
  70 2013-03-19 00:34:26 Kim has quit (Quit: Rebooting for 8 CPU cores D:)
  71 2013-03-19 00:34:46 <Luke-Jr> it could be good for bitcoin at least :/
  72 2013-03-19 00:35:00 <Luke-Jr> if miners are basically required to hoard, less supply..
  73 2013-03-19 00:35:01 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: read on— it's bizarre. The part I quoted sounds good.
  74 2013-03-19 00:35:03 <Eleuthria> It's good for Bitcoin as a currency.  It's bad for miners trying to pay their bills.
  75 2013-03-19 00:35:04 <gmaxwell> Then it continues:
  76 2013-03-19 00:35:04 <gmaxwell> "By contrast, a person that creates units of convertible virtual
  77 2013-03-19 00:35:04 <gmaxwell> currency and sells those units to another person for real currency
  78 2013-03-19 00:35:04 <gmaxwell> or its equivalent is engaged in transmission to another location
  79 2013-03-19 00:35:06 <gmaxwell> and is a money transmitter"
  80 2013-03-19 00:35:12 <gmaxwell> which yea...
  81 2013-03-19 00:35:24 <gavinandresen> More legal/regulatory certainty is definitely a good thing
  82 2013-03-19 00:35:37 <gavinandresen> … even if we might not like the regulations
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  85 2013-03-19 00:36:04 <Luke-Jr> I wonder how this works out for people who have ALREADY sold tho
  86 2013-03-19 00:36:08 <gmaxwell> Yea, at least a concrete position is something you can work from, even if its bad.
  87 2013-03-19 00:36:14 <Graet> as only the larger bitcoin businesses will be able to afford licencing and regultion it will further centralise bitcoin imo
  88 2013-03-19 00:36:16 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: "a person that creates"  w00t indeed!
  89 2013-03-19 00:36:24 * jgarzik returns from baby bedtime to read more than just 1 paragraph
  90 2013-03-19 00:36:34 <Eliel_> also interesting is how it works for people who have both mined and bought and sold.
  91 2013-03-19 00:36:38 thallium205 has joined
  92 2013-03-19 00:36:56 <Eliel_> even if they've never dropped the total number of coins below what they've mined.
  93 2013-03-19 00:37:03 <gmaxwell> Graet: Well, that opinion seems to specially privilege mining for personal use.
  94 2013-03-19 00:37:04 <gavinandresen> Easy solution is to mine, then buy stuff with your bitcoins instead of selling them for "real currency"
  95 2013-03-19 00:37:12 <cap2002> Certainty for the US perhaps. The rest of the world still couldn't care less. :)
  96 2013-03-19 00:37:31 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: yeah, which further improves bitcoin's adoption as a (virtual) currency
  97 2013-03-19 00:37:32 <Eleuthria> gavinandresen:  Yes, that part is clear with the Fincen document.  It becomes a whole new problem on taxes though
  98 2013-03-19 00:37:40 <Eliel_> Graet: It could also have a decentralizing effect. We could see lots of very small miners popup.
  99 2013-03-19 00:37:48 <gmaxwell> I am sensing new business opturnities for electrical power sales for bitcoin. :P
 100 2013-03-19 00:37:49 <Eleuthria> It's a lot easier to report your income when you can clearly show deposits hitting your bank account
 101 2013-03-19 00:37:50 <gavinandresen> if I recall correctly, a couple of states don't require money transmitter licenses, but, again, I am not a lawyer
 102 2013-03-19 00:38:32 <abracadabra> "... but i play one on tv"
 103 2013-03-19 00:38:34 <Graet> as long as they do not sell thier btc sure, but it seems a *lot* of miners sell to cover costs, which makes them money transmitters too
 104 2013-03-19 00:38:35 <abracadabra> :D
 105 2013-03-19 00:39:03 <Eliel_> gmaxwell: oh true, that :D
 106 2013-03-19 00:39:09 <MC-Droid> miners as licenced money transmitters
 107 2013-03-19 00:39:14 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: well it will certantly crap on people trying to report the appreciation of mined coins as capital gains... but I (and my accountant) thought that was questionable, ::shrugs::.
 108 2013-03-19 00:39:16 <MC-Droid> this kills the bitcoin
 109 2013-03-19 00:39:23 <Eliel_> gmaxwell: that mostly solves the problem if you can pay the powerbill with bitcoins :)
 110 2013-03-19 00:39:34 <Eliel_> MC-Droid: no it won't
 111 2013-03-19 00:39:36 <Luke-Jr> MC-Droid: not all miners
 112 2013-03-19 00:39:39 <Eleuthria> gmaxwell:  Yeah, luckily I've treated it all in a way the IRS will love.
 113 2013-03-19 00:39:52 <Eleuthria> They couldn't squeeze a penny more out of me if they tried.
 114 2013-03-19 00:40:01 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: are you just reporting it as self employment income?
 115 2013-03-19 00:40:07 <Eleuthria> Deposit into checking account, Schedule C income.  Fully taxed w/ SE taxes.
 116 2013-03-19 00:40:15 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: ding ding. Exactly.
 117 2013-03-19 00:40:17 <Eleuthria> I wasn't risking any fancy interpretations.
 118 2013-03-19 00:40:28 <Eleuthria> I was an accountant by trade.
 119 2013-03-19 00:40:32 * jgarzik has been paying taxes on bitcoins to the IRS for years now ;p
 120 2013-03-19 00:40:58 sebicas has joined
 121 2013-03-19 00:40:58 B0g4r7 has quit (Quit: B0g4r7)
 122 2013-03-19 00:40:59 <gigitrix> Eleuthria: tl;dr for us Brits, that's basically "my business earned money, here's your chunk"?
 123 2013-03-19 00:41:01 <MC-Droid> you guys are takin no chances
 124 2013-03-19 00:41:06 discretefx has quit ()
 125 2013-03-19 00:41:14 B0g4r7 has joined
 126 2013-03-19 00:41:18 <Eleuthria> gigitrix:  Yep
 127 2013-03-19 00:41:40 <MC-Droid> gigitrix: its like the april self assesment scrum
 128 2013-03-19 00:42:09 <MC-Droid> where the website fails spectacularly
 129 2013-03-19 00:42:22 <MC-Droid> every year without fail
 130 2013-03-19 00:42:22 lodse has joined
 131 2013-03-19 00:43:03 tockitj has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 132 2013-03-19 00:43:29 <jgarzik> ok, my tl;dr
 133 2013-03-19 00:43:32 <jgarzik> "bitcoins are legal"
 134 2013-03-19 00:43:50 yoyoceramic has quit ()
 135 2013-03-19 00:44:06 <jgarzik> (not saying they were illegal before... just noting this solidifies bitcoin status as legal to possess and use for normal people)
 136 2013-03-19 00:44:20 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
 137 2013-03-19 00:44:25 kikkerdril has joined
 138 2013-03-19 00:44:34 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=154518.0  (some?) OKPAY bitcoin debit cards, hit with the 10% cyprus confiscation.
 139 2013-03-19 00:44:38 <gmaxwell> 0_o
 140 2013-03-19 00:44:42 <Cusipzzz> jgarzik: but kills bitcoin to usd trade for the most part, except with exchanges or foreign sites
 141 2013-03-19 00:45:36 <gavinandresen> lol, I got email from somebody claiming to Satoshi.  I said "why you no use gpg like you used to?"  They reply:  I will try to dig it up.... It's been such a long time I forget some of the conditions I imposed on my comms with people...
 142 2013-03-19 00:45:54 <Eleuthria> lol
 143 2013-03-19 00:45:57 redeper has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 144 2013-03-19 00:46:04 * gavinandresen plays sad-trombone ....
 145 2013-03-19 00:46:08 gigitrix has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 146 2013-03-19 00:46:40 <Eleuthria> "Dude, Gavin, it's me.  Remember that BTC loan a few years back?"
 147 2013-03-19 00:46:54 <sipa> lol
 148 2013-03-19 00:47:15 <gmaxwell> "Heres a patch. Make sure you apply it right away. It will activate the secret hologram where I tell you about the second blockchain."
 149 2013-03-19 00:47:31 <weex> in the case that a user creates units of this convertible virtual currency and sells it for another virtual currency is that other virtual currency a "real currency or its equivalent"?
 150 2013-03-19 00:47:32 <gavinandresen> ooh ooh!  secret second blockchain!
 151 2013-03-19 00:47:33 <MC-Droid> elaborate misdirection
 152 2013-03-19 00:47:45 <sipa> gmaxwell: from my brief and indirect communication with satoshi, i gather the patch won't compile :P
 153 2013-03-19 00:47:45 cyphase has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 154 2013-03-19 00:47:45 <MC-Droid> satoshi is in the mirror :p
 155 2013-03-19 00:48:02 <daughterly> the second blockchain: I bet that's where he solved the blocksize problem
 156 2013-03-19 00:48:10 ikbenwouter has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 157 2013-03-19 00:48:49 gigitrix has joined
 158 2013-03-19 00:50:13 <jgarzik> heh
 159 2013-03-19 00:50:33 <Eleuthria> Oh boy
 160 2013-03-19 00:50:36 <jgarzik> FinCEN ruling might have the interested side effect of spurring development of the bitcoin economy
 161 2013-03-19 00:50:54 <weex> just thinking about a potential loophole if they don't say virtual currency is an equivalent of real currency
 162 2013-03-19 00:50:54 <Eleuthria> FinCEN ruling might be really fun for interpretation when I'm not the one creating the currency ;p
 163 2013-03-19 00:50:59 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, right away I see a real demand for services to pay for power in exchange for coins.
 164 2013-03-19 00:51:22 <MC-Droid> wait how do we get lots of smal miners
 165 2013-03-19 00:51:28 <jgarzik> For the record, I've long said that pool operators were money transmitters
 166 2013-03-19 00:51:35 <jgarzik> scared luke-jr by saying that, one day
 167 2013-03-19 00:51:43 <Eleuthria> We're union organizers IMO
 168 2013-03-19 00:51:43 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: I might argue you're creating the currency, and using it to buy computing time from people.
 169 2013-03-19 00:51:46 cap2002 has quit ()
 170 2013-03-19 00:51:55 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: that certainly isn't true from this
 171 2013-03-19 00:51:56 <Eleuthria> gmaxwell:  I might argue that my corporation is the one creating the currency.
 172 2013-03-19 00:51:57 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: that's a very fair point
 173 2013-03-19 00:52:02 <Eleuthria> And is paying me that currency for my services.
 174 2013-03-19 00:52:02 <jgarzik> Eleuthria: yep
 175 2013-03-19 00:52:02 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: alternatively, your users are creating it— and you're selling some service to them.
 176 2013-03-19 00:52:16 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: well right by you I meant your company.
 177 2013-03-19 00:52:23 <Luke-Jr> hmm
 178 2013-03-19 00:52:37 <Luke-Jr> Eleuthria: then you have to deal with taxes of paying miners
 179 2013-03-19 00:52:40 <sipa> "What service that is, your honor? Oh, we sell the decrease of variance."
 180 2013-03-19 00:52:47 <gmaxwell> hahah
 181 2013-03-19 00:52:48 <Eleuthria> lol
 182 2013-03-19 00:53:01 <Luke-Jr> sipa: we coordinate communal mining ;)
 183 2013-03-19 00:53:01 <sipa> "Call us an insurance company?"
 184 2013-03-19 00:53:27 <Luke-Jr> GBT pools at least; gets fuzzy with getwork/stratum I suppose :/
 185 2013-03-19 00:53:46 <gmaxwell> sipa: you think it's weird, but considering that there are futures traders who are effectively trading on the second and third moment of prices (e.g. esp in the bond market), and paying taxes on it...
 186 2013-03-19 00:54:03 <gavinandresen> I'm tempted to go through the get a money-transmitter-license process in Massachusetts, just to see what it is like....
 187 2013-03-19 00:54:12 <MC-Droid> guys having the technicalities of bitcoin hammered out in court will be painful
 188 2013-03-19 00:54:15 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: Just costs a lot of money
 189 2013-03-19 00:54:19 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: and a background check
 190 2013-03-19 00:54:19 <gmaxwell> ^ that.
 191 2013-03-19 00:54:22 makkapakka has joined
 192 2013-03-19 00:54:29 <daughterly> so in that case, the pool operator is paying the miners for this service, so each miner has to register because they receive coins, but the pool operator does not because they are merely buying services
 193 2013-03-19 00:54:45 <Eleuthria> Buying/selling services requires no registration
 194 2013-03-19 00:54:53 FCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 195 2013-03-19 00:54:55 <Eleuthria> on either side...unless I read it wrong
 196 2013-03-19 00:55:15 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: thats my understanding— and it makes sense to me.
 197 2013-03-19 00:55:20 <jgarzik> Money Services Business (MSB) / Money Transmitter (MT) licensing at state+federal level usually involves a surety bond ($$$), background check, and potentially a large bank account.
 198 2013-03-19 00:55:22 <Luke-Jr> daughterly: vice-versa
 199 2013-03-19 00:55:34 <Luke-Jr> daughterly: pools provide coordination services to miners IMO
 200 2013-03-19 00:55:37 <jgarzik> WRT pool ops
 201 2013-03-19 00:55:39 <MC-Droid> ok so
 202 2013-03-19 00:55:45 <jgarzik> note that the hash is inextricably linked to the pool
 203 2013-03-19 00:55:46 <MC-Droid> this is nice and all
 204 2013-03-19 00:55:47 <gmaxwell> They're concerned about people providing coin<>money gatewaying, but thats it.
 205 2013-03-19 00:55:48 <Eleuthria> Pool ops are just minion union organizers.
 206 2013-03-19 00:55:50 <jgarzik> a user cannot take their hash elsewhere
 207 2013-03-19 00:55:52 <Eleuthria> *miner
 208 2013-03-19 00:55:54 <jgarzik> to another pool
 209 2013-03-19 00:56:04 <MC-Droid> but my pool is a hidden service
 210 2013-03-19 00:56:11 <MC-Droid> come at me?
 211 2013-03-19 00:56:11 <Eleuthria> jgarzik:  Hmm, but in the case of Stratum and GBT...
 212 2013-03-19 00:56:23 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: wrong channel for that kind of thinking.
 213 2013-03-19 00:56:30 <jgarzik> Eleuthria: Does stratum allow me to pay myself, and not BTC Guild?
 214 2013-03-19 00:56:36 <Eleuthria> The miner is creating part of the work locally.
 215 2013-03-19 00:56:39 <MC-Droid> just sayin
 216 2013-03-19 00:56:47 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: GBT certantly makes that possible.
 217 2013-03-19 00:56:47 <Eleuthria> So we're paying the miner for their service of finishing the work
 218 2013-03-19 00:56:50 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: sure, but then BTC Guild won't coordinate others paying you
 219 2013-03-19 00:57:04 <jgarzik> I know GBT makes that possible.  Does Stratum?
 220 2013-03-19 00:57:13 <gavinandresen> mmm,  massachusetts law is for "Selling, issuing or registering checks or money orders"   … and I don't think bitcoin is any of those by the Fincen definitions.
 221 2013-03-19 00:57:42 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I bet they updated their banking laws for prepaid debit cards, at least
 222 2013-03-19 00:57:48 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: and often you fall into those slots
 223 2013-03-19 00:58:22 <Eleuthria> In other news, thanks guys for the 0.8.1 work
 224 2013-03-19 00:58:36 <Eleuthria> Feels good seeing my servers generate work in <100ms again
 225 2013-03-19 00:58:48 <Eleuthria> And having control of minblocksize
 226 2013-03-19 01:00:19 <gmaxwell> oh, linux kernel will soon be ready for bitcoind in a few years: https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/3/18/373 :P
 227 2013-03-19 01:00:34 <Eleuthria> lol
 228 2013-03-19 01:00:39 <MC-Droid> Eleuthria you sticking around here then
 229 2013-03-19 01:00:44 <Eleuthria> ?
 230 2013-03-19 01:00:46 <MC-Droid> didnt see you much before the incident
 231 2013-03-19 01:00:51 <gigitrix> Yeah 0.8.1 is happily caught up now, thanks all for sorting out "Forkgate"
 232 2013-03-19 01:01:00 <Eleuthria> MC-Droid: Yes, I'm trying to
 233 2013-03-19 01:01:07 <Eleuthria> I've been a lot more active these last few months in general
 234 2013-03-19 01:01:11 <MC-Droid> cool
 235 2013-03-19 01:01:26 <sipa> dang, the 32TB limit
 236 2013-03-19 01:01:30 <Eleuthria> But sometimes #bitcoin/#bitcoin-dev move too fast and I just can't stand seeing the scrolling on a side monitor
 237 2013-03-19 01:01:34 <sipa> we'll need a hardfork of the linux kernel to fix that
 238 2013-03-19 01:02:00 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: speak up when bitcoin-dev goes high traffic with stuff you don't care about.
 239 2013-03-19 01:02:09 <Eleuthria> Hah :p
 240 2013-03-19 01:02:19 jeef has joined
 241 2013-03-19 01:02:21 <sipa> it might get lost in the noise, thoug
 242 2013-03-19 01:02:35 maniakos has joined
 243 2013-03-19 01:02:51 <gmaxwell> No really, having this channel readable is important to the transparency of the project. I'm personally pretty terrible about the OT banter. But, I do reconize it as an issue, and I fully support anyone speaking up about it.
 244 2013-03-19 01:03:00 <MC-Droid> ive tried to keep my noise to #bitcoin of late
 245 2013-03-19 01:03:09 john_____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 246 2013-03-19 01:03:31 <Eleuthria> gmaxwell:  Understandable, I'm not in here enough to say it's a chronic problem.  Just post-fork it got a bit spammy after the issue was resolved.
 247 2013-03-19 01:03:40 <MC-Droid> since i realised i have nearly nothing useful to add here
 248 2013-03-19 01:03:48 john_____ has joined
 249 2013-03-19 01:04:09 Duly has joined
 250 2013-03-19 01:04:29 <Eleuthria> A bit of celebration spam, if you will :)
 251 2013-03-19 01:04:39 <sipa> Eleuthria: happens when you suddenly have tons of interested people together, and there is nothing really to talk about anymore :)
 252 2013-03-19 01:04:45 <jgarzik> heh
 253 2013-03-19 01:05:12 cyphase has joined
 254 2013-03-19 01:05:24 <Eleuthria> So any devs other than Gavin planning to be at the San Jose conference?
 255 2013-03-19 01:05:35 <gmaxwell> Some is fine. A bit of socialization helps people work together... it's just a problem when people outside of our open cabal stop paying attention because there is too much noise.
 256 2013-03-19 01:05:40 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: I'll be there.
 257 2013-03-19 01:06:04 <sipa> Eleuthria: still pondering whether i'll come
 258 2013-03-19 01:06:16 <Eleuthria> I'm pondering that as well...especially as a panelist.
 259 2013-03-19 01:06:21 <gmaxwell> (... considering I live out here now, would be kinda silly not to)
 260 2013-03-19 01:06:24 <jgarzik> What is the most decentralized, yet still usable, of the Android bitcoin wallets?
 261 2013-03-19 01:06:44 <sipa> jgarzik: goonie's bitcoin wallet for android?
 262 2013-03-19 01:06:50 <Eleuthria> I'd love to meet some of you guys, but I'd be a fish out of water at a conference.
 263 2013-03-19 01:06:53 <MC-Droid> for sure
 264 2013-03-19 01:06:54 <jgarzik> Eleuthria: I'll be in San Jose, definitely.  One of the panelists.
 265 2013-03-19 01:06:58 * jgarzik needs to send in his bio
 266 2013-03-19 01:07:07 <gigitrix> I honestly find "Bitcoin Wallet" to be the one that's cool
 267 2013-03-19 01:07:26 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: well I expect that it will be dense in vulture capitalists, more technology clueful people will be good.
 268 2013-03-19 01:07:26 <gigitrix> You're going to want to WiFi up for the blockchain download though!
 269 2013-03-19 01:07:31 <MC-Droid> goonies wallet is very important to bitcoin i reckon
 270 2013-03-19 01:07:36 <Eleuthria> gmaxwell:  That's actually my concern
 271 2013-03-19 01:07:43 <MC-Droid> becuase fuck apple
 272 2013-03-19 01:07:46 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: You're overthinking it, when you start quantifying the acceptable amount of socialization ;p
 273 2013-03-19 01:08:07 <sipa> i've found the prague and london conference very interesting so far
 274 2013-03-19 01:08:07 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: good point on reddit:  "…and transmits it to another person"  <-- mine and then sell on an exchange and you're maybe not a money transmitter
 275 2013-03-19 01:08:16 <Eleuthria> I'd be there as the kid who threw together a mining pool.  The rest of the people are either mostly in marketing, or developers with more years experience than I've been alive.
 276 2013-03-19 01:08:18 <sipa> the talks... ok, but it's all about meeting peopel
 277 2013-03-19 01:08:22 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: who said I was quantifying, heck I didn't even give coefficients for the partial differentials of the socialization.
 278 2013-03-19 01:08:23 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: that was my general thinking
 279 2013-03-19 01:08:32 <sipa> Eleuthria: how old are you? :)
 280 2013-03-19 01:08:35 <Eleuthria> 26
 281 2013-03-19 01:08:36 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: but you WANTED TO, admit it
 282 2013-03-19 01:08:42 <gigitrix> Conferences? That's... like.... outside. Totally antithetical to the Internet Dweller currency that started out ordering Pizzas to basements :)
 283 2013-03-19 01:08:44 * jgarzik is an old coot
 284 2013-03-19 01:08:53 <sipa> Eleuthria: 28 here :)
 285 2013-03-19 01:09:08 sl1982-Desktop has joined
 286 2013-03-19 01:09:34 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: I'm sure there will be people you want to hang out with.
 287 2013-03-19 01:09:52 <Eleuthria> Yeah, I'll probably have to leave my cave and get outside for it.
 288 2013-03-19 01:10:10 <gmaxwell> Besides, leaving the marketing and business people alone too much has bad results. They tend to go into full reality distortion mode left unattended.
 289 2013-03-19 01:10:12 <Eleuthria> Might have to start letting natural light inside so I get used to the burning sensation.
 290 2013-03-19 01:10:13 <sipa> yeah, it was hard recognizing jgarzik irl :)
 291 2013-03-19 01:10:15 <muhoo> will the c++ bitoin client broadcast a tx if it's only connected to 1 peer?
 292 2013-03-19 01:10:19 <sipa> muhoo: yes
 293 2013-03-19 01:10:27 <slush> hi, are you aware of this document? http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html
 294 2013-03-19 01:10:35 <gmaxwell> slush: see scrollback.
 295 2013-03-19 01:10:35 <muhoo> hmm. if there's no fee, will the c++ broadcast a tx?
 296 2013-03-19 01:10:35 <bVector> yup, its been all the rage
 297 2013-03-19 01:10:57 <bVector> even otc is alight with relevant discussion (see: internet lawyering)
 298 2013-03-19 01:11:34 sl1982 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 299 2013-03-19 01:11:47 <sipa> Eleuthria: on conferences before, i've met m0mchil, slush, TD, justmoon, jgarzik, genjix, jim618, ...
 300 2013-03-19 01:12:19 <sipa> and probably lots of others i forget
 301 2013-03-19 01:12:24 <slush> hm, looks like miners are MSB :(
 302 2013-03-19 01:13:09 kikkerdril has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 303 2013-03-19 01:13:27 <sipa> slush: it's not entirely clear, but that's certainly one interpretation
 304 2013-03-19 01:13:27 sl1982-Desktop is now known as sl1982
 305 2013-03-19 01:13:28 <muhoo> miners are big-endian?
 306 2013-03-19 01:13:41 <gmaxwell> slush: see the first half:
 307 2013-03-19 01:13:41 <gmaxwell> "A person that creates units of this convertible virtual currency
 308 2013-03-19 01:13:41 Diablo-D3 has joined
 309 2013-03-19 01:13:41 <gmaxwell> and uses it to purchase real or virtual goods and services
 310 2013-03-19 01:13:41 <gmaxwell> is a user of the convertible virtual currency and not subject to
 311 2013-03-19 01:13:41 <gmaxwell> regulation as a money transmitter."
 312 2013-03-19 01:13:56 <gmaxwell> slush: I forsee businesses selling power for Bitcoin...
 313 2013-03-19 01:14:03 <sipa> gmaxwell: what if the purchased virtual goods are Bitcoins? :P
 314 2013-03-19 01:14:14 <Diablo-D3> hey gmaxwell
 315 2013-03-19 01:14:21 <muhoo> would that then be a sin, father?
 316 2013-03-19 01:14:22 <Diablo-D3> whats the name of that one EC hash
 317 2013-03-19 01:14:25 <Diablo-D3> the one with the wierd name
 318 2013-03-19 01:14:31 <jrmithdobbs> the what now
 319 2013-03-19 01:14:32 ic3 has joined
 320 2013-03-19 01:14:33 <sipa> EC != hashing
 321 2013-03-19 01:14:39 <jrmithdobbs> ^
 322 2013-03-19 01:14:39 <Eleuthria> wait
 323 2013-03-19 01:14:45 <Eleuthria> I think we missed an important part
 324 2013-03-19 01:14:45 <Diablo-D3> its a signature scheme then?
 325 2013-03-19 01:14:49 <sipa> ECDSA?
 326 2013-03-19 01:14:50 <jrmithdobbs> do you mean sha3 aka keccak? that's a weird name
 327 2013-03-19 01:14:51 <MC-Droid> maybe it would just push most mining outside the US
 328 2013-03-19 01:14:53 <Diablo-D3> not ECDSA
 329 2013-03-19 01:14:54 <sipa> secp256k1?
 330 2013-03-19 01:14:55 <Eleuthria> "This guidance addresses "convertible" virtual currency. This type of virtual currency either has an equivalent value in real currency, or acts as a substitute for real currency. "
 331 2013-03-19 01:14:58 <MC-Droid> not a terrible thing
 332 2013-03-19 01:15:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: I ... think they'd actually be okay with that. They are clearly not treating the virtual currency itself as money. Which is perhaps bad public policy considering their goals, but — at least thats my very not considered impression of this.
 333 2013-03-19 01:15:02 <Diablo-D3> the one with the really weird name with a bunch of numbers in it
 334 2013-03-19 01:15:06 <Eleuthria> There's more ambiguity here.
 335 2013-03-19 01:15:11 normanrichards has joined
 336 2013-03-19 01:15:14 <Eleuthria> That could be considering virtual currency as store credits
 337 2013-03-19 01:15:15 <sipa> Diablo-D3: ed25519?
 338 2013-03-19 01:15:16 <gmaxwell> Already forwarded this to council for an opinion. :P
 339 2013-03-19 01:15:16 <Eleuthria> like Amazon Coins.
 340 2013-03-19 01:15:17 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: so, everything involving a modern crypto primitive
 341 2013-03-19 01:15:20 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yeah thats it
 342 2013-03-19 01:15:21 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: from the last 2 decades
 343 2013-03-19 01:15:26 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: yeah I know =/
 344 2013-03-19 01:15:27 <Eleuthria> Not Bitcoins
 345 2013-03-19 01:15:27 <muhoo> gmaxwell: s/council/counsel/
 346 2013-03-19 01:15:31 <jrmithdobbs> heh
 347 2013-03-19 01:15:39 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: that doesnt mean you DONT have to pay taxes btw
 348 2013-03-19 01:15:43 <sipa> Diablo-D3: that's a signature scheme, yes
 349 2013-03-19 01:15:45 <jrmithdobbs> curve25519 is a dh and signing suite not hashing =/
 350 2013-03-19 01:15:46 <Diablo-D3> I came im half way through the discussion
 351 2013-03-19 01:15:48 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: no one is talking about taxes.
 352 2013-03-19 01:15:52 <Diablo-D3> kay
 353 2013-03-19 01:15:59 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: curve25519 is technically not ed25519
 354 2013-03-19 01:16:03 <gmaxwell> muhoo: is there an IRSSI plugin where I can just send my messages through you for copyediting?
 355 2013-03-19 01:16:09 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: depends on which paper you're reading
 356 2013-03-19 01:16:12 <sipa> though they operate on a curve in the same field
 357 2013-03-19 01:16:13 <Diablo-D3> well I was trying to find it yesterday
 358 2013-03-19 01:16:24 <Diablo-D3> and wikipedia doesnt even seem to have an article on it
 359 2013-03-19 01:16:27 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: the ed25519 paper describes the function used for dh or the curve as curve25519
 360 2013-03-19 01:16:30 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: so fucking confusing
 361 2013-03-19 01:16:35 <sipa> hmmz
 362 2013-03-19 01:16:38 <jrmithdobbs> s/or the curve/on the curve/
 363 2013-03-19 01:16:48 <Diablo-D3> okay so, what can I do with ed25519 by itself/
 364 2013-03-19 01:16:50 <sipa> afaik, curve25519 is DH, and ed25519 is signing
 365 2013-03-19 01:16:51 <jrmithdobbs> and the ref (non-nacl) curve25519 dh impl calls the function the same
 366 2013-03-19 01:16:51 <jrmithdobbs> heh
 367 2013-03-19 01:16:55 <Diablo-D3> can it be used for hashing?
 368 2013-03-19 01:16:55 <sipa> Diablo-D3: sign and verify
 369 2013-03-19 01:16:58 <sipa> no
 370 2013-03-19 01:17:03 alixr has joined
 371 2013-03-19 01:17:06 <sipa> it signs a hash of a document
 372 2013-03-19 01:17:31 <jrmithdobbs> the scheme includes a definition of the hash as sha2-256  or sha2-512 (I forget and it uses it twice :()
 373 2013-03-19 01:18:42 discrete has joined
 374 2013-03-19 01:19:18 <Diablo-D3> well, Im trying to learn how newer techniques work
 375 2013-03-19 01:19:24 gigitrix has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 376 2013-03-19 01:19:28 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: it is not the same curve— they use the same field and base point, but the ed25519 uses a different formula for the curve itself.
 377 2013-03-19 01:19:28 <muhoo> i'm trying to figure out why a tx is not going anywhere, on the testnet. i have a c++ client, connected manually to another c++ client, which is connected to the testnet3, it's a valid tx, and it just stays put.
 378 2013-03-19 01:19:30 <Diablo-D3> and man I really need to get a phd in math =/
 379 2013-03-19 01:19:41 <slush> gmaxwell: hm, when the pool isn't selling coins for other good, then i should be safe..
 380 2013-03-19 01:19:47 <slush> goods
 381 2013-03-19 01:19:59 <muhoo> looking in debug.log, on the other node, i see no mention of this tx hash being ever received
 382 2013-03-19 01:20:04 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: yes yes, i was saying the terminology of the name for each is confused depending on which paper you're reading
 383 2013-03-19 01:20:35 alexwaters has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 384 2013-03-19 01:20:46 <muhoo> ah, wait, no i do
 385 2013-03-19 01:21:36 <muhoo> um, no, it's not there after all. that was a block with a similar hash
 386 2013-03-19 01:21:54 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: apparently their formulation preserves the DLP problem difficulty (as presumably a solution in one translates to the other through some trivial operation), but IIRC their paper didn't actually cite anything for that claim, and my ECC number theory isn't strong enough for the reason to have been instantly obvious to me.
 387 2013-03-19 01:22:35 john__ has joined
 388 2013-03-19 01:22:36 thallium205 has quit ()
 389 2013-03-19 01:23:20 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya, there's some craziness to make it into a usable signing scheme, why we actually saw saw WIP code from djb for the first time in ever with that version that's in nacl that he abandoned
 390 2013-03-19 01:24:41 <jrmithdobbs> speaking of curve25519 (the dh function) if anyone wants a js implementation i got a guy that wrote one and released it gpl to liberate it via mit this weekend for a project i'm working on
 391 2013-03-19 01:24:46 <jrmithdobbs> https://github.com/rev22/curve255js/blob/master/curve25519.html
 392 2013-03-19 01:24:48 <jrmithdobbs> enjoy ;p
 393 2013-03-19 01:24:51 gribble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 394 2013-03-19 01:24:54 nimdAHK_ has joined
 395 2013-03-19 01:24:55 Ant0 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 396 2013-03-19 01:25:03 <Diablo-D3> hrm
 397 2013-03-19 01:25:03 <Diablo-D3> so
 398 2013-03-19 01:25:07 <Diablo-D3> what Im thinking is this
 399 2013-03-19 01:25:18 <Diablo-D3> I bet I can make a QC-proof hash.
 400 2013-03-19 01:25:26 <Diablo-D3> but one thats still crypto secure
 401 2013-03-19 01:25:33 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: I'm *kind* of starting to understand the math but sounds like we're pretty much at the same point there :)
 402 2013-03-19 01:25:47 <nimdAHK_> how do I list connected nodes in bitcoind?
 403 2013-03-19 01:25:56 <sipa> nimdAHK_: getpeerinfo
 404 2013-03-19 01:26:12 <jrmithdobbs> did it get merged as listconnections or getpeerinfo i don't remember
 405 2013-03-19 01:26:48 john_____ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 406 2013-03-19 01:26:55 <nimdAHK_> sipa: thanks
 407 2013-03-19 01:27:10 * Diablo-D3 ponders
 408 2013-03-19 01:27:24 <Diablo-D3> why aren't more cryptos hard but highly parallel?
 409 2013-03-19 01:27:47 <Diablo-D3> like, I expected SHA3 to feature more instruction level parallelism than it did
 410 2013-03-19 01:28:10 <Diablo-D3> and EC signing schemes seem to be stuck in the dark ages too
 411 2013-03-19 01:28:58 <sipa> ECDSA signing can certainly be parallellized, but these are such tight loops that depend on fitting everything in small amounts of cache, that breaking them up will hurt performance a lot
 412 2013-03-19 01:29:28 <sipa> so you're generally better off just doing several signatures over multiple threads
 413 2013-03-19 01:29:49 kadoban has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 414 2013-03-19 01:29:49 <sipa> oh, and instruction level parallellism... that's one thing they do considered a lot for Ed25519
 415 2013-03-19 01:30:00 <sipa> * did consider
 416 2013-03-19 01:31:20 XRPTrader2 has quit (Quit: XRPTrader2)
 417 2013-03-19 01:31:39 <Diablo-D3> well, what Im thinking of doing is gluing the innards of SHA3 into a LDPC algo
 418 2013-03-19 01:31:51 <Diablo-D3> and then somehow throwing EC math in there somehow
 419 2013-03-19 01:32:02 <sipa> to obtain... what?
 420 2013-03-19 01:32:07 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: I think you need a spolier.
 421 2013-03-19 01:32:08 <Diablo-D3> QC hard.
 422 2013-03-19 01:32:36 <MC-Droid> cup holders
 423 2013-03-19 01:32:45 nanotube has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 424 2013-03-19 01:32:59 <sipa> Diablo-D3: do you understand shor's algorithm?
 425 2013-03-19 01:33:19 <sipa> gmaxwell: and blue leds
 426 2013-03-19 01:33:23 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I think so.
 427 2013-03-19 01:33:33 <sipa> Diablo-D3: i don't
 428 2013-03-19 01:33:42 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I dont blame you
 429 2013-03-19 01:34:14 <Diablo-D3> sipa: but I think anything thats not a symmetric cipher is going to be difficult on QC
 430 2013-03-19 01:34:19 <btc123_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shor%27s_algorithm
 431 2013-03-19 01:34:28 <btc123_> Diablo-D3: explain in detail.
 432 2013-03-19 01:35:10 <Diablo-D3> btc123_: I dont have to, wikipedia does it for me
 433 2013-03-19 01:35:13 agricocb has joined
 434 2013-03-19 01:35:15 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think it's actually easier to understand it (at least non-concretely) as applied to the DLP.  If you imagine a search for the DLP solution you keep stepping around the field until you collide with yourself. Effectively your search for the solution is an infinite series of steps which is periodic.
 435 2013-03-19 01:35:39 holorga_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 436 2013-03-19 01:35:47 <gmaxwell> sipa: shor effectively allows you to find the cycle length of that search without actually evaulating it. Then you step directly.
 437 2013-03-19 01:35:48 <Diablo-D3> btc123_: its grover's algo I'm worried about
 438 2013-03-19 01:36:03 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: yeah, but then you have to explain what a cycle length is
 439 2013-03-19 01:36:17 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 440 2013-03-19 01:36:23 <gmaxwell> Though I do not quite understand how this is accomplished— though I can look at the math and each step follows.
 441 2013-03-19 01:36:35 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 442 2013-03-19 01:36:46 <btc123_> TIL that bitcoin devs are QC experts
 443 2013-03-19 01:37:00 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: well, as far as I can tell, the math is just generating accurate probabilities
 444 2013-03-19 01:37:16 <Diablo-D3> so you can just skip all the low probability parts of the search space
 445 2013-03-19 01:37:18 <sipa> Diablo-D3: what type of crypto do you want to design that is crypto-hard? a hashing function?
 446 2013-03-19 01:37:24 <sipa> a signature scheme?
 447 2013-03-19 01:37:26 <sipa> encryption?
 448 2013-03-19 01:37:28 <Diablo-D3> sipa: hashing function
 449 2013-03-19 01:37:32 holorga_ has joined
 450 2013-03-19 01:37:44 <sipa> Diablo-D3: you do understand the implications of Grover's algorithm?
 451 2013-03-19 01:37:57 nanotube has joined
 452 2013-03-19 01:38:01 nelisky has joined
 453 2013-03-19 01:38:10 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I think so
 454 2013-03-19 01:38:11 Blitzboom has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 455 2013-03-19 01:38:12 agricocb has joined
 456 2013-03-19 01:38:14 <gmaxwell> standard hashing functions are generally believed to be QC hard (at least upto what grovers does)— though it may turn out some structures have particular weaknesses.
 457 2013-03-19 01:38:19 <Diablo-D3> sipa: it makes symmetric cipher cracking much faster
 458 2013-03-19 01:38:23 caedes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 459 2013-03-19 01:38:40 <sipa> Diablo-D3: yes, but up to a limit
 460 2013-03-19 01:38:42 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: not just that, its unescapable. The bound is tight.
 461 2013-03-19 01:38:54 <sipa> Diablo-D3: and there is no way around it
 462 2013-03-19 01:38:58 stretchwarren has joined
 463 2013-03-19 01:39:06 <gmaxwell> Grover gives up a speedup for _all_ non-linear search. But the speedup is only a sqrt speedup.
 464 2013-03-19 01:39:17 <sipa> sha256 is as good a QC-hard hash function as any
 465 2013-03-19 01:39:23 <gmaxwell> So just increasing your state by 2x makes it go away as a concern.
 466 2013-03-19 01:39:23 <Diablo-D3> heh, can you use grover's algo on non-qc hardware?
 467 2013-03-19 01:39:33 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: you can simulate it.
 468 2013-03-19 01:39:40 <sipa> yes, but not with the same speed :D
 469 2013-03-19 01:39:41 <Diablo-D3> but the simulation is slower than just doing it?
 470 2013-03-19 01:39:42 <gmaxwell> But it doesn't give you a speedup. :P
 471 2013-03-19 01:40:11 <Diablo-D3> increasing your state 2x doesnt fix it
 472 2013-03-19 01:40:18 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: more like an impossibly large slowdown. :P
 473 2013-03-19 01:40:19 <Diablo-D3> because then they just make faster QCs
 474 2013-03-19 01:40:24 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: it really does.
 475 2013-03-19 01:40:26 nelisky has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 476 2013-03-19 01:40:40 nelisky has joined
 477 2013-03-19 01:40:41 <Diablo-D3> okay so wait, 2x in which direction? like sha3 has a 1600 bit internal state
 478 2013-03-19 01:40:44 <Diablo-D3> going to 3200 fixes it?
 479 2013-03-19 01:41:00 XRPTrader2 has joined
 480 2013-03-19 01:41:03 <Diablo-D3> because I imagine going to 3200 fixes _a lot of things_
 481 2013-03-19 01:41:19 <k9quaint> anyone read the guidance that the US treasury just issues regarding virtual currencies?
 482 2013-03-19 01:41:32 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: well the state is not actually 1600 in SHA3, as the input is read into the common state. the capacity of sha3 is 1600 minus the input blocksize.
 483 2013-03-19 01:41:34 <Diablo-D3> I think gmaxwell was discussing it when I came in
 484 2013-03-19 01:41:36 <Diablo-D3> url for that?
 485 2013-03-19 01:41:46 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: and NIST is talking about reducing the capacity from the proposed 512 bits to 256 bits.
 486 2013-03-19 01:41:47 <k9quaint> http://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html
 487 2013-03-19 01:41:47 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: you know what I meant
 488 2013-03-19 01:41:57 <warren> (where did this discussion about SHA3 come from?)
 489 2013-03-19 01:42:07 <Diablo-D3> warren: well, Im trying to better understand crypto
 490 2013-03-19 01:42:14 <gmaxwell> warren: diablo-d3 is a cryptographically strong random conversation generator.
 491 2013-03-19 01:42:21 o2 has joined
 492 2013-03-19 01:42:24 <sipa> LOL
 493 2013-03-19 01:42:27 <warren> hah
 494 2013-03-19 01:42:32 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: -_-`
 495 2013-03-19 01:42:32 <k9quaint> good one ;)
 496 2013-03-19 01:42:39 <sipa> let's try attacking him
 497 2013-03-19 01:42:43 <warren> My one time pad is all zeroes.
 498 2013-03-19 01:42:49 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: Intel is awesome.
 499 2013-03-19 01:42:57 <gmaxwell> (my tried a known differential attack)
 500 2013-03-19 01:43:00 <sipa> warren: just as likely as any other combination of bits on it!
 501 2013-03-19 01:43:17 <warren> sipa: and I don't have to worry about periodicity!
 502 2013-03-19 01:43:26 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: so how to hash trees work?
 503 2013-03-19 01:43:28 <sipa> though i really wouldn't use this one more than once
 504 2013-03-19 01:43:42 <sipa> how is babby formed?
 505 2013-03-19 01:43:53 <MC-Droid> aw stop bullying diablo
 506 2013-03-19 01:44:38 xenesis has joined
 507 2013-03-19 01:45:06 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: So, I heard you like hashes?  I put (two) hashes in your hash so that you can hash while you hash (e.g. in parallel).
 508 2013-03-19 01:45:10 DrAkaman has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 509 2013-03-19 01:45:26 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
 510 2013-03-19 01:45:27 <sipa> nice one!
 511 2013-03-19 01:45:33 rikur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 512 2013-03-19 01:45:40 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: yeah I know that, but how does, say, a merkle signature actually make it secure?
 513 2013-03-19 01:45:40 <sipa> we should start a site
 514 2013-03-19 01:45:43 rikur has joined
 515 2013-03-19 01:45:49 <sipa> MathByMemes.com
 516 2013-03-19 01:45:51 <Diablo-D3> sipa: crypto for dummies?
 517 2013-03-19 01:45:52 <Diablo-D3> oh
 518 2013-03-19 01:45:58 o2_ has joined
 519 2013-03-19 01:47:13 o2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 520 2013-03-19 01:47:19 <k9quaint> looks like all the btc exchanges are now Money Services Businesses that can be regulated
 521 2013-03-19 01:47:28 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: thats good
 522 2013-03-19 01:47:30 <k9quaint> or at least the treasury thinks so
 523 2013-03-19 01:47:32 <Diablo-D3> they need to be regulated
 524 2013-03-19 01:47:45 <warren> k9quaint: URL?
 525 2013-03-19 01:47:52 <Diablo-D3> I wonder if that also means extinct exchanges can be regulated too
 526 2013-03-19 01:47:55 <joe_k> fuckme just figured out what might be wrong.  pubkey = (random) * order of field,  not (random) * base point
 527 2013-03-19 01:47:58 <Diablo-D3> like, the guys from bitcoinica can go to prison forever
 528 2013-03-19 01:48:03 <joe_k> ???
 529 2013-03-19 01:48:05 <k9quaint> warren: page up a bit, I just posted
 530 2013-03-19 01:48:07 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: lamport and merkle signature schemes are based on hash functions being resistant to preimage attacks. Basically a secure hash function lets you precommit to a set of values without disclosing them.
 531 2013-03-19 01:48:28 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: and then to sign you disclose a subset of those values based on the data you sign.
 532 2013-03-19 01:48:39 Arbition is now known as Arbition__
 533 2013-03-19 01:48:41 <joe_k> that doesnt make sense because n is an integer, not a point. hm
 534 2013-03-19 01:48:51 Arbition__ is now known as Arbition
 535 2013-03-19 01:49:01 <warren> They choose the word "real" instead of "fiat".
 536 2013-03-19 01:49:05 <sipa> joe_k: pubkey = secret * base_point
 537 2013-03-19 01:49:12 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: but how does that prevent tampring?
 538 2013-03-19 01:49:16 <sipa> joe_k: where * is EC point multiplication
 539 2013-03-19 01:49:19 <k9quaint> warren: thats because Fiats are sexy
 540 2013-03-19 01:49:27 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: shouldnt I disclose the entire set of values?
 541 2013-03-19 01:49:40 btc123_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 542 2013-03-19 01:49:42 <sipa> Diablo-D3: say you have 4 pieces of data, a,b,c,d
 543 2013-03-19 01:49:58 <k9quaint> Diablo-D3: I wonder if Eleuthria is now an MSB too
 544 2013-03-19 01:50:00 <sipa> Diablo-D3: H1=hash(a,b), H2=hash(c,d), H3=hash(H1,H2)
 545 2013-03-19 01:50:02 jav__ has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
 546 2013-03-19 01:50:02 nelisky has quit (Quit: nelisky)
 547 2013-03-19 01:50:08 <Diablo-D3> sipa: then I just hash the hashes?
 548 2013-03-19 01:50:18 <Diablo-D3> oh wait thats what H3 does
 549 2013-03-19 01:50:20 <sipa> Diablo-D3: yes, H3=hash(H1,H2)
 550 2013-03-19 01:50:21 <joe_k> sipa: yeah I think my modular division is not right
 551 2013-03-19 01:50:22 <sipa> indeed
 552 2013-03-19 01:50:38 <sipa> Diablo-D3: i want to prove that c is in the tree, for example, and you only have H3
 553 2013-03-19 01:50:42 <sipa> Diablo-D3: that's the premise
 554 2013-03-19 01:50:53 <Diablo-D3> sipa: so its basically distributing an hmac across multiple chunks of the data?
 555 2013-03-19 01:50:54 <jgarzik> k9quaint: That is not a surprise.  It was implied in the regulations anyway, that a US-legal bitcoin exchange must be MSB/MT.
 556 2013-03-19 01:51:02 maji has quit (Excess Flood)
 557 2013-03-19 01:51:07 <jgarzik> This just makes it a bit more explicit.
 558 2013-03-19 01:51:09 <sipa> Diablo-D3: so if i give you H1,c,d, you can check that it works out to be H3, right
 559 2013-03-19 01:51:18 <sipa> Diablo-D3: i don't need to give you a,c
 560 2013-03-19 01:51:20 maji has joined
 561 2013-03-19 01:51:30 <Diablo-D3> sipa: huh, so is that how tor routing works?
 562 2013-03-19 01:51:31 TheButterZone has left ()
 563 2013-03-19 01:51:40 <jgarzik> k9quaint: Anyone doing exchanging in the US _already_ worked on getting MSB/MT licensing, or partnered with MSB/MT (bitinstant, bitpay, coinlab, ...)
 564 2013-03-19 01:52:17 <k9quaint> jgarzik: yes, but this interpretation could mean pool operators, since they are transmitting BTC around
 565 2013-03-19 01:52:20 <Diablo-D3> okay so wait, the whole treasury thing is why mtgox sold their US book to coinlab?
 566 2013-03-19 01:52:25 <gmaxwell> Hm.  ... I'm not sure if Diablo-D3's last comment is an example of confusion or diffusion.
 567 2013-03-19 01:52:36 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: trying to connect the dots, really
 568 2013-03-19 01:52:37 <jgarzik> k9quaint: I hope not, but, that is a risk yes
 569 2013-03-19 01:52:39 <sipa> Diablo-D3: i have no clue about tor routng
 570 2013-03-19 01:52:42 <joe_k> transmitting btc around is not enough to be a MSB
 571 2013-03-19 01:52:44 mhanne has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 572 2013-03-19 01:52:57 <joe_k> and < $1k/day is not a MSB
 573 2013-03-19 01:53:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: You haven't /ignore'd Diablo-D3 yet?  :)
 574 2013-03-19 01:53:08 <joe_k> unless it is your stated purpose that you're an exchange
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 579 2013-03-19 01:53:16 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik is a troll
 580 2013-03-19 01:53:20 <jgarzik> I took him off ignore a few weeks ago, but that didn't last long
 581 2013-03-19 01:53:39 <Diablo-D3> I should just put him on ignore too
 582 2013-03-19 01:53:56 <Diablo-D3> he doesn't say anything useful, and everytime he asks for help I've had to have other people repeat my messages to him
 583 2013-03-19 01:53:58 <k9quaint> you guys should ignore one another, then use third parties to exchange messages
 584 2013-03-19 01:54:04 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: see above
 585 2013-03-19 01:54:06 <joe_k> Diablo-D3: tor senders specify the route through the network and pre-encrypt a message to every node saying who the next node is. Nothing to do with hashing or merkle trees
 586 2013-03-19 01:54:09 <sipa> k9quaint: like freenode?
 587 2013-03-19 01:54:16 <k9quaint> Diablo-D3: we could call it an IIIRC server
 588 2013-03-19 01:54:21 ic3 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 589 2013-03-19 01:54:26 <jgarzik> k9quaint: rofl
 590 2013-03-19 01:54:41 <Diablo-D3> joe_k: yeah ,but how does it enforce message integrety? or doesnt it bother to beyond normal techniques?
 591 2013-03-19 01:54:48 * joe_k offering IRC escrow for 0.05BTC
 592 2013-03-19 01:54:58 o2_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 593 2013-03-19 01:55:21 <joe_k> Diablo-D3: standard cryptographic means?  or there is no message integrity? (parties don't identify each other)
 594 2013-03-19 01:55:28 john__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 595 2013-03-19 01:55:37 <Diablo-D3> joe_k: how do I know a tor message hasn't been MITMed
 596 2013-03-19 01:56:04 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i think there's some still some more interesting stuff to dig out of merkle's scheme (not necessarily related to signing, as little of it has been ;p)
 597 2013-03-19 01:56:09 tre-spective has joined
 598 2013-03-19 01:56:18 <joe_k> Diablo-D3: you pre-route it through 1) enough nodes that you can kind of trust your adversary isn't in control of them, 2) through a node you know your adversary doesn't control
 599 2013-03-19 01:56:34 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: it's just such an amazing structure
 600 2013-03-19 01:56:38 <Diablo-D3> joe_k: yes, but lets say 1 and 2 isnt possible because the attacker can see and hear all
 601 2013-03-19 01:57:05 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: 2 is always possible
 602 2013-03-19 01:57:07 <Diablo-D3> joe_k: the attacker knows who I am, and who the target is, but cant read the message because the target is a tor hidden node
 603 2013-03-19 01:57:10 <jrmithdobbs> that's why that's a feasible solution
 604 2013-03-19 01:57:14 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 605 2013-03-19 01:57:17 <joe_k> if the attack can see and hear all, you lost
 606 2013-03-19 01:57:19 <jrmithdobbs> so long as 2 is possible 1 is possible so it's possible
 607 2013-03-19 01:57:20 <jrmithdobbs> the end
 608 2013-03-19 01:57:31 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: I don't think yo've followed the wizarding talk around this stuff lately. Very interesting stuff. you should probably join #bitcoin-wizards where most of the rocket science which isn't of daily interest is being deflected.
 609 2013-03-19 01:57:35 <warren> k9quaint: reading that URL, it isn't clear if virtual/virtual trading is regulated by this.
 610 2013-03-19 01:57:46 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: re: what specifically?
 611 2013-03-19 01:57:59 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: lol I thought you were kidding
 612 2013-03-19 01:58:06 <gmaxwell> "crap"
 613 2013-03-19 01:58:14 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i was just making a comment about your mention of merkle's signing scheme :)
 614 2013-03-19 01:58:25 <Diablo-D3> okay so, sha3 was chosen because its fast and has a large internal state, right?
 615 2013-03-19 01:58:26 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i didnt even mean related to bitcoin really
 616 2013-03-19 01:58:34 <joe_k> merkle trees are pretty straighforward
 617 2013-03-19 01:58:47 Hashdog has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 618 2013-03-19 01:58:48 <Diablo-D3> joe_k: they are now, I thought there was just some magic to them, and there isnt
 619 2013-03-19 01:58:51 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: just every time i think i understand that structure i find or someone else finds/shows me a novel application of them
 620 2013-03-19 01:58:51 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: well, things like the fact that any inductively defined datastructure being eligible for converting into a form which is provable by using that construction.
 621 2013-03-19 01:58:52 <joe_k> just basically a list that not just names entries, but has a fingerprint of what they said they had in them
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 624 2013-03-19 01:59:34 <k9quaint> warren: yeah, its not very clear on that point
 625 2013-03-19 01:59:59 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell, sipa: okay so, sha3 is not QC safe, correct?
 626 2013-03-19 02:00:06 <warren> virtual/real and escrow clearly is regulated by this text.
 627 2013-03-19 02:00:22 <k9quaint> well, pools hold people's BTC for them
 628 2013-03-19 02:00:36 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: no they dont
 629 2013-03-19 02:00:42 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: but why is there a -wizards instead of leaving that talk in -dev? that just confuses me
 630 2013-03-19 02:00:43 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: most pools pay out instantly with multiple gen tx
 631 2013-03-19 02:00:45 <k9quaint> but its work being exchanged for BTC
 632 2013-03-19 02:00:56 <warren> k9quaint: "a person is an exchanger and a money transmitter if the person accepts such de-centralized convertible virtual currency from one person and transmits it to another person as part of the acceptance and transfer of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency."
 633 2013-03-19 02:00:59 <sipa> Diablo-D3: not more or less than any other non-broken hash function
 634 2013-03-19 02:01:03 <k9quaint> Diablo-D3: BTCGuild holds my BTC ;)
 635 2013-03-19 02:01:08 <warren> k9quaint: "from one person" might not describe a pool.
 636 2013-03-19 02:01:11 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: because we're mostly talking about things that are not relevant to bitcoin at least in the short term, and it was flooding the channel.
 637 2013-03-19 02:01:19 <sipa> Diablo-D3: and not less than any hash function possible at all
 638 2013-03-19 02:01:23 <joe_k> jrmithdobbs: there are an infinite number of "yet more focused and technical" channels.  As soon as we all follow the devs to that one, there will be another one
 639 2013-03-19 02:01:38 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yeah, but then how do you make QC hard algos?
 640 2013-03-19 02:01:42 <k9quaint> warren: technically, a pool is exchanging BTC for computing resources
 641 2013-03-19 02:01:49 <sipa> Diablo-D3: you double their number of bits
 642 2013-03-19 02:01:56 <sipa> Diablo-D3: for hashing, at least; very easy solution
 643 2013-03-19 02:02:09 <sipa> Diablo-D3: assymtric crypto is where QC hardness is a challenge
 644 2013-03-19 02:02:14 <k9quaint> sipa: just use naughty bits
 645 2013-03-19 02:02:15 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: well after my weekend trapped in a hotel next weekend i'll have some interesting things to share ;p
 646 2013-03-19 02:02:15 <joe_k> Diablo-D3: doesn't mean an actual quantum computer is feasible, only that someone has dreamed up some math in case one ever exists
 647 2013-03-19 02:02:16 <warren> k9quaint: yeah, that isn't accepting currency from a person though.
 648 2013-03-19 02:02:30 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: things like "what happens if you make a bitcoin script into an abstract syntax tree— a binary tree that branches at every IF... and hash along the tree so that when you send a scriptsig you only transmit the execution path you actually evaluate.
 649 2013-03-19 02:02:31 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: (wedding in dallas and gf couldn't get time off)
 650 2013-03-19 02:03:23 <k9quaint> warren: yeah, it looks like pools are not considered MSBs
 651 2013-03-19 02:03:33 <k9quaint> drat, I wanted to hear Eleuthria cry about all the red tape :(
 652 2013-03-19 02:03:34 <joe_k> do most scripts even use an IF? i thought they were straight-through
 653 2013-03-19 02:03:50 <jrmithdobbs> joe_k: the branches are implicit
 654 2013-03-19 02:04:03 <jrmithdobbs> eg, OP_CHECKSIG has an implicit branch
 655 2013-03-19 02:04:09 <gmaxwell> as jrmithdobbs said, consider multisig too.
 656 2013-03-19 02:04:22 <warren> k9quaint: that being said, everyone should get their own lawyer
 657 2013-03-19 02:04:30 <jrmithdobbs> joe_k: it's like the world's worst bastardized version of forth
 658 2013-03-19 02:04:31 <joe_k> it does? item is popped, evaluated, item (true or false) is pushed
 659 2013-03-19 02:04:34 <jrmithdobbs> if you squint really really really hard
 660 2013-03-19 02:04:35 <k9quaint> warren: this is the internet, everyone is a lawyer
 661 2013-03-19 02:04:43 <joe_k> so you dont mean the opcodes, you mean the execution BEHIND the opcodes
 662 2013-03-19 02:04:45 <gmaxwell> The hash tree AST construction would let you do smaller and more private multisig, as you'd only disclose the branches you need to execute.
 663 2013-03-19 02:05:02 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: that's a damned nifty idea
 664 2013-03-19 02:05:26 <Diablo-D3> sipa: well, Im trying to figure out how to use LDPC ECC inside of an existing sponge structure algo to do mceliece/niederreiter type stuff
 665 2013-03-19 02:06:14 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: one of the wild implications is that if your IFs are just tests on the data being signed, and the inside of the branches are just PUSH_$NONCE POP then thats isomorphic to lamport... from just the script evaluation!
 666 2013-03-19 02:06:17 <muhoo> ok, back down to mundane stuff. how can i figure out why a node SAYS it is broadcasting a tx, but appears not to be doing so?
 667 2013-03-19 02:06:49 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: you just blew my mind a little
 668 2013-03-19 02:06:50 <gmaxwell> muhoo: number one reason is that it already has— and thus has the ID in the peers's known table.
 669 2013-03-19 02:07:26 <muhoo> it hasn't though. the other peer it's connected to hasn't seen it, nor has the testnet3 in general
 670 2013-03-19 02:07:43 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: it also makes it clear that what the blockchain is doing is not really executing a program for you— rather, the signer is executing the program, and then the signature is actually a proof of the execution that the network validates.
 671 2013-03-19 02:08:08 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: in a similar vein, you know of some good (recent-ish) papers on more abstract cryptographic claim/contract systems?
 672 2013-03-19 02:08:09 <gmaxwell> muhoo: hm.
 673 2013-03-19 02:08:20 <muhoo> ah.
 674 2013-03-19 02:08:24 <muhoo> getpeerinfo -> null
 675 2013-03-19 02:08:30 <gmaxwell> well then.
 676 2013-03-19 02:08:33 <muhoo> it doesn't think it's connected to anything
 677 2013-03-19 02:08:50 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: eg, voting and things like zooko's semi-private keys and stuff other related claim/reveal/verify type protocols
 678 2013-03-19 02:08:55 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i can't figure out what people call them
 679 2013-03-19 02:10:12 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: there's some related stuff under the "trusted" computing branch but it mostly makes side references to the bits i'm interested in and seems to cite them poorly (at least in the papers i've been looking at)
 680 2013-03-19 02:10:42 <muhoo> ahaha, pilot error. i changed the address of the peer.
 681 2013-03-19 02:10:46 * muhoo <== dumbass
 682 2013-03-19 02:10:57 <jrmithdobbs> outside of voting specifically there's not been much movement in that area since the 70s or so afaict
 683 2013-03-19 02:11:03 Eleuthria has left ()
 684 2013-03-19 02:11:03 <jrmithdobbs> and not much related to voting, either
 685 2013-03-19 02:11:42 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I'm afraid that all Im going to end up doing is making my algo either less secure or slower with no improvement of security
 686 2013-03-19 02:11:49 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: there is actually a ton of stuff. Enough that I was able to ask for a specific kind of weird construction and amiller was able to kick me a paper.
 687 2013-03-19 02:12:07 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i'm sure there is, i can't figure out what it's being called, though!
 688 2013-03-19 02:12:11 <jrmithdobbs> :)
 689 2013-03-19 02:12:31 <jrmithdobbs> amiller: you, that ^
 690 2013-03-19 02:13:07 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: I wanted a homophic encryption algorithim that would allow you to securely sum a bunch of numbers and then only be able to test if the result was <0,0,>0 ... and (at least) one exists.
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 693 2013-03-19 02:14:27 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: you remember the paper specifically because that's similar to what i'm looking for
 694 2013-03-19 02:14:41 <jrmithdobbs> and it's eerie that it's so similar
 695 2013-03-19 02:15:44 <gmaxwell> well perhaps you're trying to solve the same problem I was..... I have a half built voting system that keeps votes confidential, but I ran into a problem where if people are unanimous then no one is private... and I needed a construction like that— one that hides the actual tally— to solve it.
 696 2013-03-19 02:15:58 <jrmithdobbs> nope, different but related problem
 697 2013-03-19 02:16:18 <gmaxwell> In major public elections knowing a vote was unanimous is not a problem, but it's a problem— e.g.— if you want to have IRC OPS vote to ban someone.
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 699 2013-03-19 02:17:00 <jrmithdobbs> related to that auth rambling a week or two ago
 700 2013-03-19 02:17:40 <jrmithdobbs> i have seriously one little bit that i'm running into a wall on (and I can *make* it work, but it's not *pretty*)
 701 2013-03-19 02:17:49 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: do you want the secret millionaire protocol?
 702 2013-03-19 02:18:24 <gmaxwell> socialist* (not secret durr)
 703 2013-03-19 02:18:40 <jrmithdobbs> was gonna say
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 709 2013-03-19 02:20:53 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: hrm, i modified form of that over a field maybe
 710 2013-03-19 02:20:56 <jrmithdobbs> s/i/a/
 711 2013-03-19 02:21:08 <jrmithdobbs> so no not quite
 712 2013-03-19 02:21:40 <jrmithdobbs> i just got threw getting all the primes out of the shit damn it ;p
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 715 2013-03-19 02:22:52 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: anyways, that curve25519 licensing was my last blocker before i could finish all the code *except* what I'm talking about, so let's talk after i do that when I have something to show that's easier to talk about ;p
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 754 2013-03-19 03:06:16 <ashod> getinfo returns protocolVersion as 80000 , how do i break apart this number to get major/minor etc ?
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 757 2013-03-19 03:10:51 XRPTrader2 has joined
 758 2013-03-19 03:10:58 <sipa> ashod: since BIP 14, the protocol version is sort-of independent from the client version
 759 2013-03-19 03:11:04 <sipa> and it shouldn't be 80000
 760 2013-03-19 03:11:32 <sipa> the client version however, 1000000 * MAJOR + 10000 * MINOR + 100 * REVISION + BUILD
 761 2013-03-19 03:11:32 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 762 2013-03-19 03:11:34 <ashod> sorry 70001 ,
 763 2013-03-19 03:11:43 <sipa> so 80000 is 0.8.0.0
 764 2013-03-19 03:12:07 <ashod> how do i convert 70001 to a.b.c.d ?
 765 2013-03-19 03:12:23 <sipa> you don't - it a protocol version; it's just a number
 766 2013-03-19 03:13:02 <sipa> and if you'd see 70001 as a client version (won't happen, there is no such client), it would be 0.7.0.1
 767 2013-03-19 03:13:05 <ashod> if i want to display the protocolversion in a human readable format, whats the macro to convert 70001 to a.b.c.d
 768 2013-03-19 03:13:11 <sipa> you don't
 769 2013-03-19 03:13:17 <sipa> it is protocol version 70001
 770 2013-03-19 03:13:28 <sipa> it has no a.b.c.d form
 771 2013-03-19 03:13:51 <ashod> i know, -- i'm asking how i can convert 70001 to a.b.c.d format , -
 772 2013-03-19 03:14:08 <ashod> is protocolVersion = (major<<8)+(minor<<16) etc ? -
 773 2013-03-19 03:14:15 <sipa> why would you do so? that would confuse people to think it is the client version of a program
 774 2013-03-19 03:14:25 Tee has left ()
 775 2013-03-19 03:14:39 <sipa> read bip 14
 776 2013-03-19 03:15:10 rikur has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 777 2013-03-19 03:15:19 rikur has joined
 778 2013-03-19 03:15:34 <ashod> if call getinfo and the protocolVersion is 70001, i am asking how i can display this ,, so that the user doesn't see protocolVersion=70001 ,, rather they see 0.7.0.1
 779 2013-03-19 03:15:47 <joe_k> it doesnt correspond to client version
 780 2013-03-19 03:15:50 <joe_k> its just a number :)
 781 2013-03-19 03:15:57 <joe_k> an integer. not a tuple of 4 bytes.
 782 2013-03-19 03:16:21 <sipa> i regret telling you 0.7.0.1
 783 2013-03-19 03:16:54 <ashod> how do you know it's 0.7.0.1 ?
 784 2013-03-19 03:17:01 <sipa> IT IS NOT
 785 2013-03-19 03:17:13 <ashod> wow, overly complicating such a simple question
 786 2013-03-19 03:17:21 <sipa> i told you that if you'd see 70001 as a _client_ version, it would correspond to 0.7.0.1
 787 2013-03-19 03:17:28 <sipa> as a protocol version, it is just a number
 788 2013-03-19 03:17:31 <sipa> nothing more
 789 2013-03-19 03:17:34 <ashod> that's my question !!!!!
 790 2013-03-19 03:17:57 <sipa> so show it as "protocol version 70001" - anything else is either wrong or misleading
 791 2013-03-19 03:18:25 [\\\] has joined
 792 2013-03-19 03:18:57 <sipa> sorry, i'm tired
 793 2013-03-19 03:19:54 <ashod> ok - i got it
 794 2013-03-19 03:21:23 <ashod> to get the minor version i divide by 10000 and mod 100 -- that's what i was talking about ..
 795 2013-03-19 03:24:00 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 796 2013-03-19 03:24:18 <sipa> the protocol version doesn't have a major or a minor
 797 2013-03-19 03:24:26 <sipa> those are things that only make sense for a client
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 799 2013-03-19 03:27:56 copumpkin has joined
 800 2013-03-19 03:28:52 <joe_k> since there are no breaking changes to the protocol, no need for semantic versioning I guess
 801 2013-03-19 03:28:57 Tatsuya has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 802 2013-03-19 03:28:57 <joe_k> is that the rationale?
 803 2013-03-19 03:30:46 conv3rsion has joined
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 806 2013-03-19 03:33:28 <Diablo-D3> back
 807 2013-03-19 03:33:35 <Diablo-D3> sorry, had to eat otherwise I think I was going to keel over
 808 2013-03-19 03:34:20 <Diablo-D3> sipa: so the ONLY way to make it qc is to double the number of bits? no computational overhead that makes steps harder will work?
 809 2013-03-19 03:36:12 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: grover speeds up _every_ non-linear search by sqrt(). All you can do is expand the search space. Doubling the number of bits gets you back to where you started.
 810 2013-03-19 03:36:26 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: yeah, but did you hear my proposal earlier?
 811 2013-03-19 03:36:49 <gmaxwell> increasing the number of operations does not help.
 812 2013-03-19 03:37:03 <gmaxwell> at least not against a spherical cow QC.
 813 2013-03-19 03:37:23 <gmaxwell> an actual pratical one might be made usless by having an expanded interior state.
 814 2013-03-19 03:37:29 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: take a sponge construction family algo (keccak and friends) then after x rounds do an LDPC ECC algo on the internal state
 815 2013-03-19 03:37:50 <Diablo-D3> and then mix the result of that back in somehow
 816 2013-03-19 03:38:24 <gmaxwell> It does not matter.
 817 2013-03-19 03:39:24 <gmaxwell> There is no computable non-linear search which isn't made sqrt() faster on a sufficiently large QC. Besides, why do you care? 'double the bits' is a pretty easy fix.
 818 2013-03-19 03:40:01 <joe_k> what is the ldpc ecc supposed to do here?
 819 2013-03-19 03:40:13 <Diablo-D3> joe_k: not using it for the ecc property
 820 2013-03-19 03:40:21 <joe_k> be nonlinear? non-reversible?
 821 2013-03-19 03:40:32 <gmaxwell> joe_k: buzzwords and sciencyness.
 822 2013-03-19 03:40:59 <Diablo-D3> joe_k: gmaxwell says more bits makes it qc harder
 823 2013-03-19 03:41:16 <joe_k> and you would encode bits with redundancy?
 824 2013-03-19 03:41:21 <cyphase> the ldpc ecc wil aes the sha256 and cipher the riemann functions qubit
 825 2013-03-19 03:41:21 <Diablo-D3> no
 826 2013-03-19 03:41:29 <gmaxwell> cyphase: exactly.
 827 2013-03-19 03:41:45 <Diablo-D3> joe_k: basically ldpc the internal state then feed that back in as input
 828 2013-03-19 03:42:15 <Diablo-D3> either that, or include it somehow in the resulting hash
 829 2013-03-19 03:42:37 <cyphase> homomorphic encryption ftw
 830 2013-03-19 03:42:38 <Diablo-D3> like, parallel compute the ldpc of the stages of the internal state and then xor that against the final hash
 831 2013-03-19 03:42:44 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: it's not just 'more bits' more internal bits are irrelevant (except needing a bigger QC perhaps to hold the program). More search space is needed to slow it down.
 832 2013-03-19 03:42:57 bitcoin-dev157 has joined
 833 2013-03-19 03:42:59 <joe_k> Diablo-D3: i mean, just tacking on functions to a hash doesn't make it more "hashy"
 834 2013-03-19 03:43:13 RoboTeddy has joined
 835 2013-03-19 03:43:18 <Diablo-D3> joe_k: no, but there IS forms of encryption that already do this
 836 2013-03-19 03:43:32 <Diablo-D3> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McEliece_cryptosystem
 837 2013-03-19 03:44:05 <Diablo-D3> so Im thinking the same technique can be applied to hashes
 838 2013-03-19 03:44:27 <joe_k> what does an error correction coding have to do with that
 839 2013-03-19 03:45:11 <joe_k> reading
 840 2013-03-19 03:45:22 <gmaxwell> joe_k: specific kinds of linear codes can be used to produce believed-to-be-qc hard asymmetric crypto
 841 2013-03-19 03:45:45 <Diablo-D3> joe_k: it uses binary goppa codes which is commonly used as an ecc
 842 2013-03-19 03:45:45 <gmaxwell> But— they're still no harder than classic hash functions already are.
 843 2013-03-19 03:46:02 <joe_k> ah. ok
 844 2013-03-19 03:46:04 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: why?
 845 2013-03-19 03:46:27 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: because you can apply grover to them too. Grover works on anything you can compute.
 846 2013-03-19 03:46:49 <Diablo-D3> so basically, to get QC hard
 847 2013-03-19 03:46:58 bitcoin-dev157 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 848 2013-03-19 03:47:02 <joe_k> i cant claim to know a damn thing about quantum computation in general, or the application of error check codes to them :)
 849 2013-03-19 03:47:16 <gmaxwell> It is completely general. Grover makes all non-linear searches ('find me a needle (key) in this haystack (space of possible keys)') sqrt faster.
 850 2013-03-19 03:47:19 <Diablo-D3> the ONLY thing that wins is increasing the size of the hash output?
 851 2013-03-19 03:47:33 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 852 2013-03-19 03:47:59 bernard75 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 853 2013-03-19 03:48:19 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: size of the thing the attacker is searching.
 854 2013-03-19 03:48:19 axhlf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 855 2013-03-19 03:48:25 sebuba has joined
 856 2013-03-19 03:48:28 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: yeah but is that input or output?
 857 2013-03-19 03:48:35 <gmaxwell> depends on the attack
 858 2013-03-19 03:48:45 <Diablo-D3> so I'd have to double both?
 859 2013-03-19 03:48:53 <gmaxwell> It's bascially _exactly_ the same thing as classical security against brute force.
 860 2013-03-19 03:49:02 <Diablo-D3> seriously?
 861 2013-03-19 03:49:06 <Diablo-D3> thats… kind of a let down
 862 2013-03-19 03:49:12 <gmaxwell> e.g. if your hash has only 1 bit input an attacker only has to try two values to get a matching hash.
 863 2013-03-19 03:49:13 <Duly> lol
 864 2013-03-19 03:49:46 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: so basically quantum computing does NOTHING against classical crypto
 865 2013-03-19 03:50:01 <Diablo-D3> because I can do the exact same thing against crypto using conventional hardware
 866 2013-03-19 03:50:05 <Diablo-D3> just add more.
 867 2013-03-19 03:50:16 <joe_k> so if i understand: the essence of quantum computation is that I can ask things like "Are half the bits 1?" faster than I can test each bit
 868 2013-03-19 03:50:21 <gmaxwell> 4 bits... the attacker must perform 2^4 = 16 operations... but a QC attacker must perform only sqrt(2^4) = 4 operations. ... but if you double the bits sqrt(2^8) = 16 and you're back to the same place.
 869 2013-03-19 03:50:23 sebuba has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 870 2013-03-19 03:50:23 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ping
 871 2013-03-19 03:50:35 <joe_k> and get back a probability versus an absolute
 872 2013-03-19 03:50:38 RoboTeddy has joined
 873 2013-03-19 03:50:59 b00tkitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 874 2013-03-19 03:51:16 <gmaxwell> joe_k: kind of. Basically you can do operations on all the states, subject to some restrictions, and then answer a query which would have otherwise had to evaluate all the states, subject to some restrictions.
 875 2013-03-19 03:51:20 <B0g4r7> 0.8.1 huh...
 876 2013-03-19 03:51:26 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: pong.
 877 2013-03-19 03:51:32 <B0g4r7> So my everything will break if I don't upgrade by 15-May?
 878 2013-03-19 03:51:37 normanrichards has joined
 879 2013-03-19 03:51:58 <RoboTeddy> http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/definitions/msb.html it appears that there's a $1,000/day threshold for qualifying as an MSB, but that threshold unfortunately doesn't apply for money transmitters (not a lawyer)
 880 2013-03-19 03:52:12 <gmaxwell> B0g4r7: upgrade to at least 0.8, or apply a workaround to older versions.
 881 2013-03-19 03:52:35 <B0g4r7> I'm on 0.8.
 882 2013-03-19 03:52:41 <Diablo-D3> [11:28:51] <gmaxwell> 4 bits... the attacker must perform 2^4 = 16 operations... but a QC attacker must perform only sqrt(2^4) = 4 operations. ... but if you double the bits sqrt(2^8) = 16 and you're back to the same place.
 883 2013-03-19 03:52:41 <Diablo-D3> [11:28:53] <-- sebuba has quit (Read error: Connection re
 884 2013-03-19 03:52:42 <Diablo-D3> yeah BUT
 885 2013-03-19 03:52:56 <Diablo-D3> quantum computing hardware costs more than 4 times more than the equiv normal hardware
 886 2013-03-19 03:53:01 <Diablo-D3> so how am I winning?
 887 2013-03-19 03:53:27 <cyphase> quantum asics ftw
 888 2013-03-19 03:53:43 fiesh_ has joined
 889 2013-03-19 03:53:52 <B0g4r7> Why can't you cascade the quantum computers and reduce the complexity further to sqrt(sqrt()), and so on?
 890 2013-03-19 03:53:54 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: do the numbers again but with 2^128 in the place of 2^4
 891 2013-03-19 03:54:02 <joe_k> Diablo-D3: dude quantum computing hardware _doesn't exist_
 892 2013-03-19 03:54:09 <gmaxwell> B0g4r7: no.
 893 2013-03-19 03:54:12 <joe_k> we are at the stage of Boole and Babbage in QC
 894 2013-03-19 03:54:25 <joe_k> some smart guys ideating some math ideas that might work out
 895 2013-03-19 03:54:50 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 896 2013-03-19 03:54:52 <joe_k> biggest quantum computer is some few qbits
 897 2013-03-19 03:55:00 <Diablo-D3> joe_k: you're missing the point of my statement
 898 2013-03-19 03:55:05 ToryJujube_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 899 2013-03-19 03:55:05 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: …. oh.
 900 2013-03-19 03:55:06 vellest has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
 901 2013-03-19 03:55:08 <gmaxwell> joe_k: the math is fine, the engineering is non-existant. Even babbage had a better idea of how to mechanically build a computer than we do wrt quantum turing machines.
 902 2013-03-19 03:55:08 bitcoin-dev694 has joined
 903 2013-03-19 03:55:08 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: oh dear god
 904 2013-03-19 03:55:17 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 905 2013-03-19 03:55:29 <joe_k> well then even before babbage then :)
 906 2013-03-19 03:55:33 <Diablo-D3> soon as a 256 qubit machine exists
 907 2013-03-19 03:55:35 <Diablo-D3> Im buying one
 908 2013-03-19 03:55:37 <Diablo-D3> and mining on it
 909 2013-03-19 03:55:46 <B0g4r7> mine all the bits
 910 2013-03-19 03:55:48 <gmaxwell> joe_k: there is no quantum computer— even of a few qbits— if you mean actually quantum turing complete, AFAIK. no one has implemented anything more than one or two gates.
 911 2013-03-19 03:56:12 <joe_k> no i mean a few qbits like, a few atoms each with a state
 912 2013-03-19 03:56:27 <joe_k> that they manage not to let outside influence touch for like 10ms
 913 2013-03-19 03:56:51 Belkaar has joined
 914 2013-03-19 03:57:23 <joe_k> then some infrared photons creep in and dork everything up :)
 915 2013-03-19 03:57:44 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: you would need a much larger than 256 qbit computer to implement sha256.
 916 2013-03-19 03:57:54 fiesh_ is now known as fiesh
 917 2013-03-19 03:58:35 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: oh?
 918 2013-03-19 03:58:48 <gmaxwell> a naive implementation of the appropriate grover oracle requires many thousands of qbits.
 919 2013-03-19 03:58:55 <Diablo-D3> well shit
 920 2013-03-19 03:58:58 <gmaxwell> though I dunno how small you can reduce it to.
 921 2013-03-19 03:58:59 <Diablo-D3> fine, one of those then
 922 2013-03-19 03:59:13 <Diablo-D3> * 50 years later *
 923 2013-03-19 03:59:27 <k9quaint> Diablo-D3: you will be dead in 50 years
 924 2013-03-19 03:59:27 <Diablo-D3> WHATS THAT SONNY? THEY FINALLY MADE A QC I WANT? YEE HAW, NOW GET OFF MY LAWN
 925 2013-03-19 04:00:03 <k9quaint> and even if you were still alive, gmaxwell would be ignoring you by then
 926 2013-03-19 04:00:23 <Duly> we'd just make a distributed qbit computer
 927 2013-03-19 04:00:46 <joe_k> how will you transmit the superposition of states over the comm channel lol
 928 2013-03-19 04:00:55 <joe_k> the whole point is that the WHOLE SYSTEM is a quantum system
 929 2013-03-19 04:00:59 <Duly> psychics (its ok to laugh)
 930 2013-03-19 04:01:12 kadoban has joined
 931 2013-03-19 04:01:23 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: well technically, the space of distinguishable human minds is probably not larger than a few hundred bits. So with a sufficiently large QC what we can do is take all of Diablo-D3's output, and use it to search for a mind that would have produced that output.. The result will be indistinguishable to Diablo-D3 as far as all of us are concerned. God help us.
 932 2013-03-19 04:01:47 <Duly> so
 933 2013-03-19 04:01:58 ToryJujube_ has joined
 934 2013-03-19 04:02:01 <Duly> just use everyone who has watched all episodes of Saved by the Bell
 935 2013-03-19 04:02:06 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: yes, but that search space can be deleted, which is progress
 936 2013-03-19 04:02:06 <Duly> and compute
 937 2013-03-19 04:02:47 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: but if its deleted... then its even hard to distinguish an unfaithful d3 from a faithful one. .. consider how much _worse_ a random d3 might be?
 938 2013-03-19 04:02:51 <Diablo-D3> Duly: well that'd be easy to find me then, Ive never watched saved by the bell
 939 2013-03-19 04:03:02 <Duly> tsk
 940 2013-03-19 04:03:29 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: that is the thing about randomness, you can't tell from the output whether it is or isn't
 941 2013-03-19 04:03:58 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: so increasing the internal state will absolutely not help against qc?
 942 2013-03-19 04:04:14 Atlantic777 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 943 2013-03-19 04:04:22 <Duly> so graphically display some curves/functions and have random ppl on the internet vote or click on where they think the "answer" is to produce a similar effect of a qbit?
 944 2013-03-19 04:04:32 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: at least not against the mathmatical ideal of a QC. It may frustrate a pratical one.
 945 2013-03-19 04:04:39 <Duly> trying to wrap my mind around the human qbit
 946 2013-03-19 04:04:50 <Diablo-D3> Duly: well thats the problem
 947 2013-03-19 04:04:58 <Diablo-D3> we're essentially quantum computers made of meat
 948 2013-03-19 04:05:15 <k9quaint> I am made of jello
 949 2013-03-19 04:05:25 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: yeah, you should see a doctor about that
 950 2013-03-19 04:05:27 <k9quaint> thus I can be stored in any computing device
 951 2013-03-19 04:05:28 DrAkaman has joined
 952 2013-03-19 04:05:34 <k9quaint> because there is always room for jello
 953 2013-03-19 04:05:39 <Duly> win
 954 2013-03-19 04:05:42 bot38 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 955 2013-03-19 04:05:42 <k9quaint> ;)
 956 2013-03-19 04:06:11 <k9quaint> I will achieve immortality by uploading myself to a casio calculator watch from the 80s
 957 2013-03-19 04:06:15 <Duly> someone smarter than me will figure out how to use something like captchas or images to make people compute
 958 2013-03-19 04:06:25 <Duly> untapped human potential
 959 2013-03-19 04:06:43 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: so, basically, the plot of the second half of red dwarf?
 960 2013-03-19 04:06:49 Atlantic777 has joined
 961 2013-03-19 04:06:54 <Diablo-D3> Duly: btw,you want to read snow crash
 962 2013-03-19 04:07:07 <Duly> ok
 963 2013-03-19 04:07:34 <k9quaint> Diablo-D3: that statement is always true, everyone should read Snow Crash
 964 2013-03-19 04:07:39 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: I know, right?
 965 2013-03-19 04:07:42 <k9quaint> even semi-sentient jello life forms
 966 2013-03-19 04:08:47 <gmaxwell> has anyone here tried BCFLICK yet?
 967 2013-03-19 04:09:00 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 968 2013-03-19 04:09:09 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: oh, that DRM wallet thing?
 969 2013-03-19 04:09:28 <gmaxwell> Yep.
 970 2013-03-19 04:09:37 <gmaxwell> really it's a TPM thing not DRM.
 971 2013-03-19 04:09:42 <Diablo-D3> er right
 972 2013-03-19 04:09:44 bot38 has joined
 973 2013-03-19 04:09:52 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I dunno, what I want to see is this
 974 2013-03-19 04:10:02 o2_ has joined
 975 2013-03-19 04:10:03 <Diablo-D3> signed modules the whole way down
 976 2013-03-19 04:10:12 <Diablo-D3> bios, bootloader, os, kernel, programs, etc
 977 2013-03-19 04:10:22 <Diablo-D3> and then a hypervisor controlled area of memory that cant be accessed from any OS
 978 2013-03-19 04:10:32 bitinsta1t is now known as bitinstant
 979 2013-03-19 04:10:36 <Diablo-D3> TPM done right, essentially
 980 2013-03-19 04:10:59 <Diablo-D3> and the only way to change the master keys that are "above" the bios is using a physical lockout you have to open the computer for
 981 2013-03-19 04:11:01 <k9quaint> so, trust Intel and AMD with my wallet key
 982 2013-03-19 04:11:03 <k9quaint> riiiiiight
 983 2013-03-19 04:11:04 <Diablo-D3> like, a jumper
 984 2013-03-19 04:11:05 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: no
 985 2013-03-19 04:11:12 <Diablo-D3> because then a third party has the master master key
 986 2013-03-19 04:11:17 <Diablo-D3> which is not secure
 987 2013-03-19 04:11:21 Belkaar has joined
 988 2013-03-19 04:11:25 <k9quaint> I mean trust them to implement "secure" correctly
 989 2013-03-19 04:11:27 <Diablo-D3> thats why the new windows shit doesnt work
 990 2013-03-19 04:11:32 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: oh, IBM can
 991 2013-03-19 04:11:35 <Diablo-D3> IBM actually did on the PS3
 992 2013-03-19 04:11:38 <Diablo-D3> its sony that fucked it up
 993 2013-03-19 04:11:52 <k9quaint> sony fucks up everything
 994 2013-03-19 04:12:00 <Diablo-D3> yeah, that seems to be their thing now, they owned it
 995 2013-03-19 04:12:33 <k9quaint> Nike has a swoosh, Sony has the universal sign for "FUBAR"
 996 2013-03-19 04:12:45 <Diablo-D3> s/a/the/
 997 2013-03-19 04:13:34 <Diablo-D3> but yeah, you can upload a new key into the firmware only when the dip switch is enabled
 998 2013-03-19 04:13:57 <Diablo-D3> literally, the pins that write to the firmware are physically disconnected via the dip switch or jumper or whatever
 999 2013-03-19 04:14:42 JDuke128 has joined
1000 2013-03-19 04:14:46 <Diablo-D3> and then you sign your bootloader with the key and your os with the bootloader's key and so on
1001 2013-03-19 04:15:07 <Diablo-D3> and the firmware launches a hypervisor that all it does is remove a few pages from view for storage
1002 2013-03-19 04:15:36 <Diablo-D3> and anything on the machine can use it for crypto-safe storage and minor computation (such as "does a = b")
1003 2013-03-19 04:15:41 <k9quaint> so it requires physical access to the puter to theive zee wallets
1004 2013-03-19 04:15:53 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: well, Im thinking the whole remote machine attack stuff
1005 2013-03-19 04:16:21 <k9quaint> I would use a quadcopter to steal your wallet, otherwise my hacker friends would make fun of me
1006 2013-03-19 04:16:46 <Diablo-D3> like, if everything is signed, then third parties cant actually execute anything of meaning on your machine
1007 2013-03-19 04:16:47 <k9quaint> I would lose all my street cred if I spent BTC stolen the usual way
1008 2013-03-19 04:17:16 <Diablo-D3> even buffer overflow type exploits dont work if NX is enforced properly
1009 2013-03-19 04:17:29 <Diablo-D3> (which is where sony fucked up, btw, their hypervisor was not NX safe)
1010 2013-03-19 04:18:07 <k9quaint> anything can be circumvented with a soldering iron of sufficient size ;)
1011 2013-03-19 04:18:14 <Diablo-D3> well thats the thing
1012 2013-03-19 04:18:24 <Diablo-D3> you just flip the switch and add your own keys
1013 2013-03-19 04:18:35 <Diablo-D3> this isnt meant to protect against physical access
1014 2013-03-19 04:18:38 <k9quaint> or if there is no switch, solder one on
1015 2013-03-19 04:18:47 <Diablo-D3> (IBM already solved that, the CPU is burned with the public key inside of it)
1016 2013-03-19 04:18:59 <k9quaint> or just stick the iron up their rectum and wait for the BTC to appear
1017 2013-03-19 04:19:15 <k9quaint> (thats the russian mafia method)
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1019 2013-03-19 04:20:02 <Diablo-D3> anyhow
1020 2013-03-19 04:20:06 <Diablo-D3> with wallets
1021 2013-03-19 04:20:30 <Diablo-D3> the entire wallet could be stored temporarily in the TPM zone in the hypervisor
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1036 2013-03-19 04:37:05 <gdoteof> i just sent a largish tx (>100 <200) and forgot to add a fee.  its been about 10 minutes and it doesn't register on blockchain.info is there a way to resend with a tx fee.. and/or what should i expect to happen
1037 2013-03-19 04:37:16 <gdoteof> the coins are pretty old.. well over a year
1038 2013-03-19 04:37:26 <phantomcircuit> from a normal client?
1039 2013-03-19 04:38:27 <gdoteof> v4
1040 2013-03-19 04:38:32 <gdoteof> of satoshi client
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1045 2013-03-19 04:46:12 <phantomcircuit> gdoteof, just wait it still retransmit it periodically until it's included in a block
1046 2013-03-19 04:47:07 <Graet> .r aud
1047 2013-03-19 04:47:14 <Graet> oops
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1071 2013-03-19 05:24:19 <jgarzik> hrm
1072 2013-03-19 05:24:26 * jgarzik ponders the raw TX API
1073 2013-03-19 05:24:37 <jgarzik> is there any way to request an address for change, I wonder?
1074 2013-03-19 05:25:16 <jgarzik> the "burn money" transaction needs to send a certain amount as TX fee, and then send change back to self
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1077 2013-03-19 05:29:37 <freewil> jgarzik, i dont see anyway to create a change address from the api
1078 2013-03-19 05:29:47 <freewil> presumably you have to handle that yourself
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1080 2013-03-19 05:32:20 <freewil> will -rescan execute -blocknotify for all the blocks?
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1111 2013-03-19 06:12:03 <egecko> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-19/venezuela-to-announce-complementary-foreign-exchange-system.html
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1119 2013-03-19 06:33:27 <jgarzik> I am a certified Anti-Money Laundering agent. (AMLCA) - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=154754.0
1120 2013-03-19 06:34:49 saulimus has joined
1121 2013-03-19 06:35:14 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: gotta love the forum. :-/
1122 2013-03-19 06:35:19 <gmaxwell> (I refer to the replies)
1123 2013-03-19 06:35:23 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, bitpay doesn't have to register as an MSB at all
1124 2013-03-19 06:35:31 <phantomcircuit> people are derptastic
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1126 2013-03-19 06:35:49 <warren> phantomcircuit: why?
1127 2013-03-19 06:36:06 <jgarzik> Yah, BitPay posted a statement to that effect, in http://bitcoinmagazine.com/fincen-bitcoin-users-not-regulated-exchanges-are/
1128 2013-03-19 06:36:12 <jgarzik> warren: ^
1129 2013-03-19 06:36:18 <jgarzik> near the end
1130 2013-03-19 06:36:55 <phantomcircuit> payment processors are not required to register as money transmitters so long as the money transmission portion of their business is just a side effect of being a payment processor
1131 2013-03-19 06:37:23 <phantomcircuit> otoh paypal made the same argument and lost but i would say there are a number of key differences the most obvious being that paypal was full of shit
1132 2013-03-19 06:38:02 <warren> It isn't that clear to me that payment processors are exempt by the money transmitter clause.
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1134 2013-03-19 06:39:23 <phantomcircuit> warren, then read it again? :)
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1139 2013-03-19 06:51:51 <warren> phantomcircuit: hmm, today's "Guidance" seems to contradict that, but the ratified regulation in the CFR does seem to support Bitpay.
1140 2013-03-19 06:52:09 <warren> phantomcircuit: trouble is that regulations can be changed
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1171 2013-03-19 08:04:15 <Ant0> is there any way to suggest a future feature?
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1174 2013-03-19 08:06:55 <TradeFortress> Ant0, yes, talk about it?
1175 2013-03-19 08:07:40 <Ant0> lol
1176 2013-03-19 08:07:46 <Ant0> ups sorry wrong window
1177 2013-03-19 08:08:04 <Ant0> TradeFortress, well, my suggestion is an option so show the balance of each bitcoin priv key in the bitcoin-qt client
1178 2013-03-19 08:08:25 <Ant0> instead all together
1179 2013-03-19 08:08:34 <Ant0> for people who want to keep all address in the same wallet
1180 2013-03-19 08:08:37 <TradeFortress> Ant0, what screen would that be on? what about change addresses?
1181 2013-03-19 08:08:41 manet_ has joined
1182 2013-03-19 08:09:14 <Ant0> I think the main screen has enough space available, or else in the receive coins tab, when you put the mouse over each address
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1184 2013-03-19 08:10:30 <gonffen> I thought it was weird that information wasn't explicitly made available
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1308 2013-03-19 10:22:55 <ielo> hi
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1318 2013-03-19 10:31:25 <kerum> hi ielo
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1359 2013-03-19 10:42:31 <MagicalTux> are there conditions where the bitcoin client would close connection to another bitcoin client? (max send buffer or so)
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1363 2013-03-19 10:42:33 <kerum> afaik, no
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1418 2013-03-19 11:00:02 <Diablo-D3> are tx ids a 256 bit number?
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1423 2013-03-19 11:04:57 <giusepp__> Diablo-D3 yes, it's uint256 !!
1424 2013-03-19 11:05:01 <cyphase> yes
1425 2013-03-19 11:05:07 <Diablo-D3> k
1426 2013-03-19 11:08:10 <giusepp__> What is the C++ data structure stored in transaction db (leveldb)?
1427 2013-03-19 11:08:33 <giusepp__> key=256 bit number (tx id) value=??
1428 2013-03-19 11:10:51 giusep___ has joined
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1435 2013-03-19 11:22:49 <sipa> freewil: -rescan doea not process blocks, so no; -reindex will
1436 2013-03-19 11:24:45 <sipa> MagicalTux: receive buffer overflow, i think
1437 2013-03-19 11:24:58 <sipa> MagicalTux: and DoS protection rules
1438 2013-03-19 11:25:36 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1439 2013-03-19 11:25:58 <sipa> giusep___: in 0.7 and before, a CTxIndex structure; in 0.8 and above: a CCoins structure
1440 2013-03-19 11:26:11 o2 has joined
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1442 2013-03-19 11:27:52 <kinlo> what's the block count on testnet?
1443 2013-03-19 11:28:09 <giusep___> Thanks sipa. As i have seen, a leveldb is a directory with some files inside. I think the directory i'm interested in (the one with all transactions) is blocks directory, but it's a collection of .dat files, it doesn't seem to have leveldb directory structure!!
1444 2013-03-19 11:28:39 <sipa> giusep___: blocks/index/* is a leveldb
1445 2013-03-19 11:28:58 <sipa> but it has no transaction index (at least not by default)
1446 2013-03-19 11:28:59 <kinlo> oh and is there someone who can send me like 10 btc to n4qdV1KmCrKfZ9jhrgaXi2zJhJcmSfTJhT ? :)
1447 2013-03-19 11:29:02 [\\\] has joined
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1449 2013-03-19 11:30:50 <sipa> giusep___: chainstate/* is also a leveldb, and it has information about unspent transaction outputs
1450 2013-03-19 11:30:52 <giusep___> blocks/index/* is a leveldb, but it's just 32Mb. I think i should read blocks/*.dat to access the transaction
1451 2013-03-19 11:31:39 <giusep___> ok! That's very interesting! But what is inside blocks/*.dat?
1452 2013-03-19 11:31:45 <jouke> kinlo: what kind of address is that?
1453 2013-03-19 11:31:46 <sipa> the blocks
1454 2013-03-19 11:31:51 <kinlo> jouke: testnet
1455 2013-03-19 11:31:55 <jouke> ah
1456 2013-03-19 11:32:18 <giusep___> How to read the blocks?
1457 2013-03-19 11:32:50 <freewil> thanks sipa
1458 2013-03-19 11:32:53 <sipa> the block index contains informatiob about whixh block is in which file and at which offset
1459 2013-03-19 11:33:09 <sipa> but you can just parse them yourself
1460 2013-03-19 11:36:33 <kinlo> anyone who can give some testnet bitcoins to me?   n4qdV1KmCrKfZ9jhrgaXi2zJhJcmSfTJhT
1461 2013-03-19 11:36:51 <giusep___> so, blocks/index is a leveldb structure uint256->CCoins that indexes blocks in .dat files?
1462 2013-03-19 11:37:08 <sipa> no, chainstate is
1463 2013-03-19 11:37:27 <Diablo-D3> hey guys, that raw tx stuff
1464 2013-03-19 11:37:34 <Diablo-D3> is there a simple example of that somewhere?
1465 2013-03-19 11:37:39 <sipa> blick index contains a block index
1466 2013-03-19 11:38:00 <giusep___> what are keys and values data types?
1467 2013-03-19 11:38:12 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1468 2013-03-19 11:38:17 <giusep___> of block index?
1469 2013-03-19 11:38:30 ashod has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1470 2013-03-19 11:38:56 <giusep___> I promise to update this page once understood everything! https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Data_directory
1471 2013-03-19 11:39:01 RazielZ has joined
1472 2013-03-19 11:39:10 <sipa> blockhash -> CDiskPos i think
1473 2013-03-19 11:39:18 <sipa> but check the source :)
1474 2013-03-19 11:39:35 <giusep___> the source is very big! 37k code lines!
1475 2013-03-19 11:39:41 <sipa> giusep___: see doc/files.txt
1476 2013-03-19 11:39:58 <sipa> giusep___: CCoins and CDiskPos are in main.h
1477 2013-03-19 11:40:46 <giusep___> oh thanks sipa!
1478 2013-03-19 11:40:56 <giusep___> :)
1479 2013-03-19 11:42:58 nus-- has joined
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1487 2013-03-19 11:50:13 Guest74652 is now known as jarpiain
1488 2013-03-19 11:51:32 <kinlo> eh, hate to beg, mining with cpu takes ages atm, nobody who has testnet coins here? :)
1489 2013-03-19 11:54:51 <doublec> kinlo: have you tried the testnet faucet?
1490 2013-03-19 11:54:53 btcur has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1491 2013-03-19 11:54:57 <kinlo> doublec: it's closed
1492 2013-03-19 11:55:08 banghouse has joined
1493 2013-03-19 11:55:10 <doublec> kinlo: http://testnet.mojocoin.com/
1494 2013-03-19 11:55:15 <doublec> that one?
1495 2013-03-19 11:55:31 <kinlo> ah
1496 2013-03-19 11:56:01 <kinlo> that one worked
1497 2013-03-19 11:56:03 <kinlo> thanks!
1498 2013-03-19 11:56:07 <doublec> np
1499 2013-03-19 11:56:58 ielo has joined
1500 2013-03-19 11:57:14 valparaiso has quit (Quit: We are not gonna die. You know why? Because we are so... very... pretty.)
1501 2013-03-19 11:59:15 <MC-Droid> id send you some but I can't remember copy out of irc
1502 2013-03-19 11:59:43 giusep___ has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
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1507 2013-03-19 12:03:59 <MC-Droid> Why is testnet running so fast
1508 2013-03-19 12:04:23 <Alternity> nasa decided to get some testnet btc
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1526 2013-03-19 12:25:08 <freewil> sipa, -blocknotify apparently doesnt fire with -reindex
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1530 2013-03-19 12:27:15 <sipa> freewil: it does; but apparently not during initial block download (and the corresponding part of the chain in reindex)
1531 2013-03-19 12:27:20 canoon has joined
1532 2013-03-19 12:28:24 <freewil> sipa, what determines the initial download state?
1533 2013-03-19 12:29:08 <sipa> freewil: either before the last checkpoint, or below the median of your peers
1534 2013-03-19 12:29:25 <coolfengyu> 0.8.1 still makes win 7 over.
1535 2013-03-19 12:29:34 <sipa> "over" ?
1536 2013-03-19 12:30:25 <coolfengyu> black screen or stop..
1537 2013-03-19 12:30:37 <sipa> ehh
1538 2013-03-19 12:32:43 fattyacids has joined
1539 2013-03-19 12:33:01 <coolfengyu> same as 0.8
1540 2013-03-19 12:33:07 tonikt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1541 2013-03-19 12:33:15 <fattyacids> !ticker
1542 2013-03-19 12:33:16 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 53.58180, Best ask: 53.70000, Bid-ask spread: 0.11820, Last trade: 53.58179, 24 hour volume: 89566.28737679, 24 hour low: 47.31000, 24 hour high: 54.28880, 24 hour vwap: 50.13934
1543 2013-03-19 12:33:29 <fattyacids> !ticker --last
1544 2013-03-19 12:33:29 <gribble> 53.58179
1545 2013-03-19 12:35:10 <fattyacids> WTF
1546 2013-03-19 12:35:42 cap2002 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1547 2013-03-19 12:36:35 <sipa> coolfengyu: 0.8.1 is the same as 0.8, except for the temporary compatibility with 0.7
1548 2013-03-19 12:36:48 onthesta1rs has joined
1549 2013-03-19 12:37:16 <fattyacids> WTF
1550 2013-03-19 12:37:18 <fattyacids> !ticker --last
1551 2013-03-19 12:37:18 <gribble> 53.79000
1552 2013-03-19 12:37:53 <coolfengyu> so i just still use 0.7.2
1553 2013-03-19 12:39:12 onthesta1rs has quit (Client Quit)
1554 2013-03-19 12:39:19 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1555 2013-03-19 12:41:16 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1556 2013-03-19 12:44:23 <Ant0> is there any way to delete a priv key from the wallet.dat?
1557 2013-03-19 12:45:17 ralphtheninja has joined
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1562 2013-03-19 12:53:16 hateeecs_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1563 2013-03-19 12:53:33 puhc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1567 2013-03-19 12:55:54 <warren> On the topic of $10k and Suspicious Activity Reports.  http://www.carrollcountytimes.com/news/local/harris-introduces-cash-deposit-legislation-to-help-small-businesses/article_213470a5-d11b-52eb-ba90-eea54264c2ff.html
1568 2013-03-19 12:56:16 valparaiso is now known as valparaiso_afk
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1571 2013-03-19 12:58:58 dawei101 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1572 2013-03-19 13:00:24 iddo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1573 2013-03-19 13:00:32 iddo has joined
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1576 2013-03-19 13:03:37 <fattyacids> !ticker --last
1577 2013-03-19 13:03:37 <gribble> 54.00000
1578 2013-03-19 13:03:44 canoon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1579 2013-03-19 13:06:19 <oneman> wow
1580 2013-03-19 13:06:43 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1581 2013-03-19 13:06:48 pobri19` has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1582 2013-03-19 13:07:46 <fattyacids> oh yeah
1583 2013-03-19 13:07:52 <fattyacids> THANK you Cyprus))
1584 2013-03-19 13:07:59 <fattyacids> ;-)
1585 2013-03-19 13:08:12 <fattyacids> !ticker --last
1586 2013-03-19 13:08:13 <gribble> 54.89000
1587 2013-03-19 13:08:20 <fattyacids> dips again
1588 2013-03-19 13:08:53 <Ant0> fattyacids get ready to thank spain too :P
1589 2013-03-19 13:09:08 maximi89 has joined
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1592 2013-03-19 13:11:23 [\\\] has joined
1593 2013-03-19 13:11:32 <fattyacids> dips again
1594 2013-03-19 13:11:51 <Scrat> fattyacids: wrong channel bro
1595 2013-03-19 13:12:24 <fattyacids> they talked about Cyprus here yesterday))
1596 2013-03-19 13:12:32 <fattyacids> anyway
1597 2013-03-19 13:12:42 <fattyacids> has anyone used picocoin yet?
1598 2013-03-19 13:12:51 <fattyacids> it seems to have died on git
1599 2013-03-19 13:16:09 <KipIngram> Either here or on #bitcoin there was a lot of discussion the other day about SD, how the small transactions are spamming the block chain etc.
1600 2013-03-19 13:16:43 <KipIngram> Won't that issue take care of itself via fees once the "overt reward" for mining a block becomes small compared to the rewards gained from the transaction fees?
1601 2013-03-19 13:16:47 _pr has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1602 2013-03-19 13:17:10 <KipIngram> Right now it's painless for miners to include low-fee / no-fee transactions, because they are really gunning for the reward.
1603 2013-03-19 13:17:21 <KipIngram> But when it's the fees that are paying their freight it seems things will have to change.
1604 2013-03-19 13:17:45 [\\\] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1607 2013-03-19 13:18:53 pizzacat_ is now known as pizzacat
1608 2013-03-19 13:19:30 <iwilcox> They don't have to mine any transactions at all though.  Could just produce empty blocks.
1609 2013-03-19 13:20:12 <fattyacids> well, no solution is perfect, I think the small transactions are normal behavioral spending
1610 2013-03-19 13:20:13 <iwilcox> So it's even more painless to include only fee-giving transactions, or nothing.
1611 2013-03-19 13:20:19 <KipIngram> Ok.  Well, that will change in the future too, when the fees are the only way to get paid.
1612 2013-03-19 13:20:32 <fattyacids> yup
1613 2013-03-19 13:21:06 jav__ has quit (Client Quit)
1614 2013-03-19 13:21:10 <KipIngram> I think that sounds like a perfectly valid solution - we're in a special case scenario right now, so we just bear with the pain that brings until it ends.
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1624 2013-03-19 13:35:41 <KipIngram> Hmmm.  http://anomos.info.
1625 2013-03-19 13:36:28 <KipIngram> "Anomos is a psudonous, encrypted multi-peer-to-peer file distribution protocol.  It is based on the peer / tracker concept of BitTorrent in combination with an onion routing anonymization layer, with the added benefit of end-to-end encryption."
1626 2013-03-19 13:37:56 <KipIngram> It says on null-byte.wonderhowto.com that uTorrent plans to intergrate Anomos into future releases.
1627 2013-03-19 13:38:12 <KipIngram> Maybe that will become widely used and will be something we can piggyback on.
1628 2013-03-19 13:38:20 datagutt has joined
1629 2013-03-19 13:38:33 <KipIngram> Oh - sorry guys.  Wrong channel.  :-(
1630 2013-03-19 13:38:50 AtashiCon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1634 2013-03-19 13:42:52 <TD> hmm. did someone switch off their SD bot, i wonder?
1635 2013-03-19 13:42:54 valparaiso_afk is now known as valparaiso
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1637 2013-03-19 13:43:15 <TD> blocks suddenly went tiny
1638 2013-03-19 13:43:22 <TD> mempool size is low
1639 2013-03-19 13:43:31 _pr has joined
1640 2013-03-19 13:43:39 <Scrat> TD: yeah 60kb blocks on average last few days, sup with that
1641 2013-03-19 13:43:50 <TD> is there anywhere that plots block sizes on a graph?
1642 2013-03-19 13:43:55 * TD was thinking of making one
1643 2013-03-19 13:44:39 hjkl22 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1644 2013-03-19 13:45:18 <jarpiain> TD: http://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size
1645 2013-03-19 13:45:46 <TD> i was thinking of one with more resolution
1646 2013-03-19 13:46:15 <TD> but yes, that's not bad
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1655 2013-03-19 13:51:13 <fattyacids> !ticker
1656 2013-03-19 13:51:14 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 54.94001, Best ask: 54.94320, Bid-ask spread: 0.00319, Last trade: 54.94001, 24 hour volume: 95761.00320474, 24 hour low: 47.31000, 24 hour high: 55.00000, 24 hour vwap: 50.47622
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1683 2013-03-19 14:17:23 <warren> TD: my guess is spam voluntarily slowed for two reasons 1) block sizes CAN'T safely get larger until the hard-fork 2) they might be fearing a bigger backlash against them (fee changes) so they want people to forget about it
1684 2013-03-19 14:17:29 btcur has joined
1685 2013-03-19 14:17:55 <TD> maybe. or maybe whoever was compulsively gambling ran out of money :)
1686 2013-03-19 14:18:42 <Scrat> he probably opened the book statistics 101
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1688 2013-03-19 14:19:25 <Diablo-D3> TD: somebody was cumpulsively gambling?
1689 2013-03-19 14:19:45 <warren> after the hard-fork, miners will allow the block size to be bigger again, and they'll be able to spam at lower fees
1690 2013-03-19 14:19:51 <TD> yes, sure
1691 2013-03-19 14:19:52 Joost has quit (Quit: Joost)
1692 2013-03-19 14:19:53 <warren> just watch, it'll happen
1693 2013-03-19 14:20:17 rckxtra has joined
1694 2013-03-19 14:20:50 <fattyacids> !ticker
1695 2013-03-19 14:20:50 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 54.81202, Best ask: 54.98998, Bid-ask spread: 0.17796, Last trade: 54.81201, 24 hour volume: 97150.65220863, 24 hour low: 47.50000, 24 hour high: 55.00000, 24 hour vwap: 50.62007
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1700 2013-03-19 14:22:49 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
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1706 2013-03-19 14:25:46 <fattyacids> !ticker
1707 2013-03-19 14:25:46 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 54.82001, Best ask: 54.98001, Bid-ask spread: 0.16000, Last trade: 54.82001, 24 hour volume: 97177.60792850, 24 hour low: 47.50000, 24 hour high: 55.00000, 24 hour vwap: 50.62641
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1712 2013-03-19 14:32:17 <Eliel_> warren: When BTC Guild moved back to 0.7, one part of the package was that their old 0.7 had a block satoshidice patch in it.
1713 2013-03-19 14:32:45 _pr has joined
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1715 2013-03-19 14:32:55 <Eliel_> that means satoshidice players started seeing quite some delays in confirmations.
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1722 2013-03-19 14:35:39 <jouke> lol
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1759 2013-03-19 15:03:39 <pete91> sipa: could you tell me what s/w you use to generate the charts on http://bitcoin.sipa.be/ please?
1760 2013-03-19 15:04:28 grazs has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1761 2013-03-19 15:04:44 <jaakkos> looks like gnuplot
1762 2013-03-19 15:05:06 vellest has joined
1763 2013-03-19 15:05:07 <sipa> pete91: it's gnuplot indeed
1764 2013-03-19 15:05:09 grazs has joined
1765 2013-03-19 15:05:33 <sipa> and the graph data is generated by bitcoind, some perl scripts and some C code for the extrapolation math
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1767 2013-03-19 15:08:24 <pete91> awesome - thanks for the full answer - i like the look of gnuplot and am interested to hear the stack s/w
1768 2013-03-19 15:09:21 <sipa> here is the source data: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/blocks.txt
1769 2013-03-19 15:09:53 <sipa> that is maintained by a perl script that fetches data bitcoind
1770 2013-03-19 15:09:55 FredEE has joined
1771 2013-03-19 15:09:56 <Scrat> can gnuplot do automatic smoothing/interpolation?
1772 2013-03-19 15:10:12 <jaakkos> yes
1773 2013-03-19 15:10:22 <sipa> (height, hash, time, difficulty, transactions)
1774 2013-03-19 15:10:31 <sipa> i do all interpolation/smoothing myself
1775 2013-03-19 15:10:34 <Scrat> pete91: also check RRDTool, you can replicate that look and you dont have to store time series yourself, it does it for you
1776 2013-03-19 15:10:44 <jgarzik> sipa: go go perl :)
1777 2013-03-19 15:10:54 <jgarzik> my first scripting language (if you exclude BASIC)
1778 2013-03-19 15:11:35 daybyter has joined
1779 2013-03-19 15:11:49 <sipa> jgarzik: basic, (q/quick/visual)basic, C, Perl, Java, Prolog, Haskell, C++, Python
1780 2013-03-19 15:12:07 <sipa> is approximately the order in which i learnt languages
1781 2013-03-19 15:12:27 [TNM]Roban has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1782 2013-03-19 15:12:59 <jgarzik> Prolog <shiver>
1783 2013-03-19 15:13:01 <pete91> Scrat: thanks
1784 2013-03-19 15:13:07 <daybyter> No Commodore Basic v 2.6 ?
1785 2013-03-19 15:13:19 <sipa> daybyter: my first computer was 386
1786 2013-03-19 15:13:35 <daybyter> oh...I'm a lot older than you... :-)
1787 2013-03-19 15:13:55 <Scrat> pete91: you just feed it value/timestamp pairs, and it figures it all out
1788 2013-03-19 15:14:00 vigilyn has joined
1789 2013-03-19 15:14:19 <daybyter> my first computer (pocket calculator) had a 4-bit cpu...
1790 2013-03-19 15:14:35 <daybyter> you know prolog?
1791 2013-03-19 15:14:48 <sipa> daybyter: "knew" is probably more correct :)
1792 2013-03-19 15:14:54 <daybyter> interested in trading stuff?
1793 2013-03-19 15:15:00 <sipa> hardly
1794 2013-03-19 15:15:12 wrabbit has joined
1795 2013-03-19 15:15:20 <Scrat> but interactive javascript graphs are all the rage these days :<
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1797 2013-03-19 15:15:57 theorbtwo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1798 2013-03-19 15:16:58 <daybyter> because I'm always looking for a collab with someone with ai knowledge...
1799 2013-03-19 15:17:04 pizzacat has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1804 2013-03-19 15:24:28 <fattyacids> !ticker
1805 2013-03-19 15:24:28 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 56.30448, Best ask: 56.84469, Bid-ask spread: 0.54021, Last trade: 56.20001, 24 hour volume: 104344.68228802, 24 hour low: 47.51000, 24 hour high: 56.89000, 24 hour vwap: 51.01195
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1809 2013-03-19 15:25:34 <gavinandresen> fifty six? huh.  How about that.
1810 2013-03-19 15:26:09 <CodeShark> crazy - who's dumping all this money into bitcoin?
1811 2013-03-19 15:26:18 Insu has joined
1812 2013-03-19 15:26:23 <sipa> people who see others dump their money into it
1813 2013-03-19 15:27:00 ThomasV has joined
1814 2013-03-19 15:27:15 <CodeShark> it's getting kind of weird - for a while I've been in a position where I basically got most of my bitcoins for nothing - but now it's starting to get expensive
1815 2013-03-19 15:27:49 <CodeShark> I've been waiting for the market to drop again so I can buy more...but it just doesn't go down much :p
1816 2013-03-19 15:28:17 <jouke> I have been waiting for that since 10 dollar.
1817 2013-03-19 15:28:57 <fattyacids> Jesus H christ
1818 2013-03-19 15:29:00 <fattyacids> almost 60
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1820 2013-03-19 15:30:41 <Vinnie_win> A year from now $60 will seem cheap.
1821 2013-03-19 15:31:11 <_W_> don't worry, while the price will keep rising, suddenly there'll be an event that shatters some people's faith in bitcoin, and the price will fall down to $120 again
1822 2013-03-19 15:31:18 <_W_> you can buy then
1823 2013-03-19 15:31:19 BurtyB2 has joined
1824 2013-03-19 15:31:46 <CodeShark> haha
1825 2013-03-19 15:32:00 <CodeShark> are those mexican pesos?
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1829 2013-03-19 15:34:16 <fattyacids> true
1830 2013-03-19 15:34:20 pizzacat has joined
1831 2013-03-19 15:34:20 <fattyacids> 60 is cheap
1832 2013-03-19 15:34:28 <fattyacids> fi Spain and Italy default
1833 2013-03-19 15:34:34 <gavinandresen> … an event that shatters some people's faith in bitcoin…. like a chain fork ?
1834 2013-03-19 15:34:34 <fattyacids> 60 is like pennies
1835 2013-03-19 15:34:48 <fattyacids> sure, bitcoin wars
1836 2013-03-19 15:34:55 <fattyacids> war of the blockchains
1837 2013-03-19 15:35:12 <fattyacids> cyberstrikes on mining pools
1838 2013-03-19 15:35:57 xtor_ has joined
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1840 2013-03-19 15:36:26 <Vinnie_win> After this month, chain forks will have much less impact
1841 2013-03-19 15:36:29 <Vinnie_win> ..on the price
1842 2013-03-19 15:36:31 gmaxwell has joined
1843 2013-03-19 15:36:32 <gavinandresen> speaking of chain forks… I'm planning on sending a 24-hour alert to everybody running pre-0.8 today, warning them of the 15 May deadline.
1844 2013-03-19 15:36:45 <fattyacids> 62.00000
1845 2013-03-19 15:36:46 jaromil_ has joined
1846 2013-03-19 15:36:49 <fattyacids> FUCK
1847 2013-03-19 15:36:53 <fattyacids> wtf
1848 2013-03-19 15:36:55 gmaxwell is now known as Guest90179
1849 2013-03-19 15:37:09 <fattyacids> its exploding
1850 2013-03-19 15:37:31 <eklass> some large buys going on + mtgox lag = large swings
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1853 2013-03-19 15:37:52 <fattyacids> !ticker
1854 2013-03-19 15:37:55 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 60.11100, Best ask: 60.29762, Bid-ask spread: 0.18662, Last trade: 60.11100, 24 hour volume: 117041.27286363, 24 hour low: 47.51000, 24 hour high: 62.00000, 24 hour vwap: 51.91303
1855 2013-03-19 15:38:04 joe_k1 is now known as joe_k
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1859 2013-03-19 15:39:05 fimp_ is now known as fimp
1860 2013-03-19 15:39:10 Guest90179 is now known as gmaxwell
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1862 2013-03-19 15:39:22 <fattyacids> !ticker
1863 2013-03-19 15:39:23 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 60.11100, Best ask: 60.29762, Bid-ask spread: 0.18662, Last trade: 60.11100, 24 hour volume: 117041.27286363, 24 hour low: 47.51000, 24 hour high: 62.00000, 24 hour vwap: 51.91303
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1867 2013-03-19 15:40:03 <gmaxwell> fattyacids: no need to keep repeating the ticker in here.
1868 2013-03-19 15:40:07 nelisky has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1874 2013-03-19 15:42:53 <fattyacids> 60->62 in 10 sec
1875 2013-03-19 15:42:56 <fattyacids> crazy
1876 2013-03-19 15:43:16 nelisky has joined
1877 2013-03-19 15:43:17 <eklass> and back down
1878 2013-03-19 15:43:18 <jouke> fattyacids: this is #bitcoin-dev, not #bitcoin
1879 2013-03-19 15:43:45 <fattyacids> anyone running (has run) picocoin
1880 2013-03-19 15:43:52 <fattyacids> as a client
1881 2013-03-19 15:43:57 xorgate has joined
1882 2013-03-19 15:44:11 <fattyacids> it seems quite dead on git
1883 2013-03-19 15:44:26 <gavinandresen> fattyacids: the picocoin developer's wife had a baby.
1884 2013-03-19 15:44:35 puhc has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1885 2013-03-19 15:44:36 ic3 has joined
1886 2013-03-19 15:44:44 <fattyacids> well, congratgs
1887 2013-03-19 15:44:51 <fattyacids> well, congrats
1888 2013-03-19 15:44:57 the-bucket-shop has left ()
1889 2013-03-19 15:44:59 <fattyacids> does he visit dev often?
1890 2013-03-19 15:45:12 <TD> the baby won't start bitcoin development for a couple of years yet
1891 2013-03-19 15:45:30 <TD> but i'm sure it'll be a frequent visitor after teething :)
1892 2013-03-19 15:45:33 <gavinandresen> I dunno, that baby has darn smart parents
1893 2013-03-19 15:45:36 tonikt has joined
1894 2013-03-19 15:45:39 <fattyacids> You never know with these kernel hackers
1895 2013-03-19 15:45:41 <TD> fattyacids: jgarzik is here
1896 2013-03-19 15:45:48 <fattyacids> growth factors might do the trick
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1898 2013-03-19 15:46:12 <gavinandresen> TD: shhhh, I thought it was a rule that every bitcoin implementation had to start with a mysterious anonymous developer....
1899 2013-03-19 15:46:28 <gavinandresen> Like that mysterious bitcoinj guy.
1900 2013-03-19 15:46:31 <TD> garzik sounds like a fake name to me, anyway
1901 2013-03-19 15:46:33 rdymac has joined
1902 2013-03-19 15:46:42 <fattyacids> Jeff something or other
1903 2013-03-19 15:46:58 <gavinandresen> I bet his real name is Geoff
1904 2013-03-19 15:47:21 <fattyacids> like gmaxwell?
1905 2013-03-19 15:47:23 <fattyacids> lol
1906 2013-03-19 15:47:29 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1907 2013-03-19 15:47:34 <fattyacids> same first name?
1908 2013-03-19 15:47:51 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1909 2013-03-19 15:47:56 <gavinandresen> mmm.  New rule:  All Core Developers must have a first name beginning with "G"
1910 2013-03-19 15:48:08 <fattyacids> Gspot
1911 2013-03-19 15:48:24 <Graet> oooh!!!
1912 2013-03-19 15:48:25 <Graet> lol
1913 2013-03-19 15:48:30 <eklass> given the trajectory of bitcoin prices, is it reasonable to expect that the client display units will soon be mBTC? or do the decvs plan on sticking with BTC for the forseeable fouture?
1914 2013-03-19 15:48:51 dlb76 has joined
1915 2013-03-19 15:48:54 <sipa> 16:27:14 [freenode] -!- Nick gipa is already in use
1916 2013-03-19 15:49:18 <TD> eklass: i think we're all too rich to worry about that. or at least, will be soon.
1917 2013-03-19 15:49:19 <TD> no just kidding
1918 2013-03-19 15:49:30 <TD> ask the developer of your favourite client ...
1919 2013-03-19 15:49:40 techlife has joined
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1921 2013-03-19 15:49:41 <eklass> well, since i'm using bitcoin-qt...
1922 2013-03-19 15:49:42 <gmaxwell> skeledrew: the reference software has a setting.
1923 2013-03-19 15:50:27 techlife has joined
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1925 2013-03-19 15:50:42 <eklass> i guess it's more of a question of at what point do the decimal places get in the way, and the community will start having to use mBTC or some designation to make things clear for "average" user. 0.0005 isn't a very friendly price to display
1926 2013-03-19 15:51:14 <sipa> i wonder when for the first time, someone will see a price of 5 mBTC, and pay 5 BTC instead
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1931 2013-03-19 15:52:27 <eklass> and furthermore, knowing that there are only to ever be ~21 million BTC produced, why not have given it a multiplier so that the subdivision was less of an issue, i.e. 21 billion
1932 2013-03-19 15:52:32 <gmaxwell> Might be useful for wallets to have a "large transaction threshold", where if you try to make a transaction over that amount it does an annoying confirm and wait. With a setting for the threshold, of course.
1933 2013-03-19 15:53:25 <gmaxwell> eklass: because there are already 21e14 base units. The 'multiplier' is just a display convention.. use whatever you like.
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1937 2013-03-19 15:54:30 <eklass> gmaxwell: sure, from a technical standpoint I understand. I was more concerned about future adoption and the confusion that would arise from BTC/mBTC/uBTC display units. People, after all, aren't actually all that smart
1938 2013-03-19 15:55:21 <gmaxwell> eklass: people all over the world have coped with insanely inflationary currencies OKAY.
1939 2013-03-19 15:55:22 cap2002 has joined
1940 2013-03-19 15:55:44 <gmaxwell> In the US people generally cope with dollars and cents okay.
1941 2013-03-19 15:55:50 Guest56358 has quit ()
1942 2013-03-19 15:55:50 <eklass> but we don't pay goods in tiny fractions of a currency unit in the "real world"
1943 2013-03-19 15:56:16 <eklass> 1/100th is a reasonable division
1944 2013-03-19 15:56:16 space_cadet has joined
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1946 2013-03-19 15:56:16 space_cadet has joined
1947 2013-03-19 15:56:29 <gmaxwell> OK.
1948 2013-03-19 15:57:29 <eklass> http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/2006/12/verizon-doesnt-know-dollars-from-cents.html  <-- FTA `I have tried to resolve this issue with customer service reps on the phone, but noone seems to see the difference between ".002 cents" and ".002 dollars".`
1949 2013-03-19 15:57:47 <eklass> that's the type of issue i'm anticipating/concerned about
1950 2013-03-19 15:58:31 <helo> hopefully nobody at that level of understanding has made it out of grade school
1951 2013-03-19 15:58:38 <gmaxwell> "The exception proves the rule"
1952 2013-03-19 15:59:02 <eklass> helo: you might be vastly overestimating the education level of at least the US
1953 2013-03-19 15:59:02 <gmaxwell> (the fact the vzn getting it wrong is funny shows that generally people expect others to get it right is the norm)
1954 2013-03-19 15:59:07 <sipa> gmaxwell: it took me a long time to understand that idiom
1955 2013-03-19 15:59:17 <TD> the android app does some interesting things with fonts to try and communicate the difference
1956 2013-03-19 15:59:20 saulimus has joined
1957 2013-03-19 15:59:26 <TD> i think there is scope for good UI to solve this issue
1958 2013-03-19 15:59:37 FredEE has joined
1959 2013-03-19 15:59:44 <sipa> gmaxwell: my current interpretation is that if it there were no exceptions, it'd be a triviality and not need a rule
1960 2013-03-19 16:01:04 nelisky has quit (Quit: nelisky)
1961 2013-03-19 16:01:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: Thats not the sense in which I was using it, but the idiom has competing meanings apparently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule#Use_in_English
1962 2013-03-19 16:01:22 <TD> eklass: yeah that story was pretty sad
1963 2013-03-19 16:01:26 <eklass> although not specifically related to my question, i did like the UX/UI ideas posted at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=154513.0 in regards to color-coding
1964 2013-03-19 16:01:33 <TD> eklass: especially the point where he took the rep through it on a calculator and she still couldn't see it
1965 2013-03-19 16:02:13 orblivion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1966 2013-03-19 16:02:17 <eklass> TD: yes. people are dumb, so I wonder if it wouldn't actually be better for the community to start using mBTC, especially as adoption increases and price (will likely) increase
1967 2013-03-19 16:02:50 <TD> that could well happen
1968 2013-03-19 16:02:52 <gmaxwell> (I was using it in original sense, well as much as is possible when talking about norms instead of rules. :P)
1969 2013-03-19 16:02:54 <gavinandresen> "One small calorie is about 4.2 joules, and one large calorie is therefore 4.2 kilojoules. "
1970 2013-03-19 16:02:57 orblivion has joined
1971 2013-03-19 16:03:07 <gavinandresen> from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorie
1972 2013-03-19 16:03:13 perhapstired has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1973 2013-03-19 16:03:34 <grau> !market sell 320
1974 2013-03-19 16:03:38 <gribble> A market order to sell 320 bitcoins right now would net 18439.5177 USD and would take the last price down to 57.2200 USD, resulting in an average price of 57.6235 USD/BTC. | Data vintage: 0.0001 seconds
1975 2013-03-19 16:04:33 <jgarzik> fattyacids: ask questions, they will be answered
1976 2013-03-19 16:04:41 <eklass> and people think i'm an asshole for using kcal. specificity is important. IMO people undervalue precision
1977 2013-03-19 16:04:53 <jgarzik> fattyacids: picocoin went on pause while my new baby is screaming ;p  Getting back into coding though
1978 2013-03-19 16:05:21 <gavinandresen> mmm.  And yet somehow we all manage to muddle our way through this imprecise world
1979 2013-03-19 16:05:53 <eklass> "muddle". interesting word choice ;)
1980 2013-03-19 16:05:58 BenderCoin is now known as FinCen
1981 2013-03-19 16:06:21 <sipa> jgarzik: how old is the baby now?
1982 2013-03-19 16:08:30 <fattyacids> hi jgarzik, any outstanding issues?
1983 2013-03-19 16:08:52 <fattyacids> I see you want to remove dependencies on gnome
1984 2013-03-19 16:09:00 <jgarzik> sipa: 8 weeks
1985 2013-03-19 16:09:08 <jgarzik> fattyacids: there is no GNOME dependency
1986 2013-03-19 16:09:16 <jgarzik> fattyacids: you mean GLib?
1987 2013-03-19 16:09:26 <fattyacids> yeah, from the gnome project
1988 2013-03-19 16:09:27 <fattyacids> Glib
1989 2013-03-19 16:09:39 <gmaxwell> glib isn't gnome, it's (ugh) like boost for C.
1990 2013-03-19 16:09:52 <fattyacids> oh, i thought it was from gnome
1991 2013-03-19 16:09:56 <jgarzik> fattyacids: Yes, ideally would like to eliminate the GLib dependency.  It is low priority, because there is not a huge compelling reason right now
1992 2013-03-19 16:09:57 <gmaxwell> A "libc completion library"
1993 2013-03-19 16:10:08 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1994 2013-03-19 16:10:16 hsmithsN7_ has joined
1995 2013-03-19 16:10:17 <jgarzik> fattyacids: RE outstanding issues: "incompleteness"  brd, picocoin and transaction signing need finishing
1996 2013-03-19 16:10:29 <jgarzik> fattyacids: I try to record this in TODO and BUGS files
1997 2013-03-19 16:10:39 <fattyacids> cool jgarzik
1998 2013-03-19 16:10:44 <fattyacids> I tried compiling it on msys
1999 2013-03-19 16:10:51 <fattyacids> got some AC errors
2000 2013-03-19 16:10:55 <kinlo> afaik glib is from the gnome project....
2001 2013-03-19 16:11:00 <kinlo> not?
2002 2013-03-19 16:11:04 <fattyacids> i thought so too
2003 2013-03-19 16:11:15 <kinlo> it doesn't matter that the lib doesn't do anything related to X or graphical stuff or so
2004 2013-03-19 16:11:26 <kinlo> it's a base library
2005 2013-03-19 16:11:30 <fattyacids> only used for has tables i think
2006 2013-03-19 16:11:33 <fattyacids> hash
2007 2013-03-19 16:11:45 <fattyacids> that sort of thing
2008 2013-03-19 16:11:49 <jgarzik> and byte swapping, and other easily replaceable things
2009 2013-03-19 16:12:04 <jgarzik> a few ADTs (hash table, list, varstring)
2010 2013-03-19 16:12:06 <fattyacids> what about open ssl
2011 2013-03-19 16:12:07 <kinlo> and a mainloop
2012 2013-03-19 16:12:12 <kinlo> it does that too if you want
2013 2013-03-19 16:12:13 <fattyacids> can we remove that?
2014 2013-03-19 16:12:18 <fattyacids> opensssl part?
2015 2013-03-19 16:12:23 <jgarzik> fattyacids: no
2016 2013-03-19 16:12:23 <fattyacids> openssl* part?
2017 2013-03-19 16:12:29 <fattyacids> why not?
2018 2013-03-19 16:12:33 <kinlo> you don't want to remove openssl
2019 2013-03-19 16:12:46 <kinlo> first rule in cryptography, do not implement your own crypto functions
2020 2013-03-19 16:12:58 <fattyacids> ah
2021 2013-03-19 16:13:00 <Prattler> is there a limit how many outputs a transaction can have?
2022 2013-03-19 16:13:03 <jgarzik> fattyacids: OpenSSL can be removed when sipa finishes his bitcoin-ecdsa-fun project :)
2023 2013-03-19 16:13:05 kerum has joined
2024 2013-03-19 16:13:11 <fattyacids> simple hashes should not be a problem
2025 2013-03-19 16:13:27 <jgarzik> fattyacids: replacing SHA1 etc. is trivial sure.  ECDSA is the main reason why no switch.
2026 2013-03-19 16:13:42 <fattyacids> ah that ecliptical stuff
2027 2013-03-19 16:13:49 <jgarzik> fattyacids: ideally SHA1/SHA256/etc. is in-tree, sipa's ECDSA is used, and no openssl is linked
2028 2013-03-19 16:13:57 <jgarzik> fattyacids: but that is at least 3-6 months away
2029 2013-03-19 16:13:59 <sipa> jgarzik: verifying and signing transactions works (with no guarantee that it is safe)
2030 2013-03-19 16:14:12 <sipa> eh, signatures
2031 2013-03-19 16:14:15 CaptainBlaze has joined
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2033 2013-03-19 16:14:24 <fattyacids> define unsafe?
2034 2013-03-19 16:14:44 kerum has left ()
2035 2013-03-19 16:14:49 <kinlo> sipa: so you already self-learned the topics of cryptocourse II ? :)
2036 2013-03-19 16:14:57 hsmithsN7_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2037 2013-03-19 16:14:58 <kinlo> sipa: so I won't have a study buddy? :)
2038 2013-03-19 16:15:12 <sipa> kinlo: cryptocourse II? I must have missed that...
2039 2013-03-19 16:15:25 <kinlo> sipa: eh, you didn't
2040 2013-03-19 16:15:29 <kinlo> sipa: it starts next month
2041 2013-03-19 16:15:39 * sipa enrolls
2042 2013-03-19 16:15:48 <jgarzik> fattyacids: In any case... (a) picocoin contributions via github are encouraged and welcome, (b) yes picocoin is still alive, and (c) yes, long term goal is to reduce dependencies to absolute minimum, ideally no-dep.
2043 2013-03-19 16:15:48 <kinlo> didn't you already enroll? :)
2044 2013-03-19 16:15:54 <kinlo> I've told you about it before
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2049 2013-03-19 16:17:23 <sipa> kinlo: maybe i did, actually
2050 2013-03-19 16:17:50 <komododragon_> Is development of sending to aliases moving along?  Can I expect this feature by the end of the year?
2051 2013-03-19 16:17:52 KIDC` is now known as KIDC
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2054 2013-03-19 16:17:54 <kinlo> sipa: but the subjects include ECDSA so I don't know if it will be usefull for you, you self-learner, <dutch>strever</dutch>
2055 2013-03-19 16:18:26 <sipa> kinlo: apparently i am enrolled :)
2056 2013-03-19 16:19:07 <sipa> kinlo: i certainly miss some theoretical background, history, and interesting ways to attack it :)
2057 2013-03-19 16:19:30 <sipa> Cryptography II
2058 2013-03-19 16:19:32 <sipa> Starts in 4 months
2059 2013-03-19 16:19:35 <kinlo> 4?
2060 2013-03-19 16:19:44 <kinlo> did they change it?
2061 2013-03-19 16:19:45 <sipa> juli 15
2062 2013-03-19 16:20:05 <kinlo> let me see
2063 2013-03-19 16:21:04 <jgarzik> fattyacids: What's your project, if I may inquire?
2064 2013-03-19 16:21:08 <kinlo> bleh
2065 2013-03-19 16:21:29 <kinlo> they did, I hope they won't change it again, this is like the 3th time they delayed the course
2066 2013-03-19 16:22:39 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2067 2013-03-19 16:22:48 <ThomasV> hi FinCEN. how are you today?
2068 2013-03-19 16:22:53 safra has joined
2069 2013-03-19 16:23:42 <CodeShark> if you have a strong math background, then probably better than taking a course on things like ECDSA from a theoretical POV, it's more useful to study actual implementations
2070 2013-03-19 16:24:04 <FinCEN> Hello ThomasV, I don't seem to have your passport on file.
2071 2013-03-19 16:24:34 D34TH has joined
2072 2013-03-19 16:24:44 <sipa> CodeShark: have you taken Boneh's class before?
2073 2013-03-19 16:25:19 <sipa> CodeShark: i find it to be just the right mix - some theoretic background, enough to understand it, but also anecdotes about attacks that happened in real lift
2074 2013-03-19 16:25:24 <CodeShark> nope - which one?
2075 2013-03-19 16:25:40 <CodeShark> the stanford guy?
2076 2013-03-19 16:25:41 <sipa> https://class.coursera.org/crypto/class/index
2077 2013-03-19 16:25:43 <sipa> yeah
2078 2013-03-19 16:26:31 <Ry4an> FinCEN: haha
2079 2013-03-19 16:26:33 <CodeShark> hmm, isn't this a bit basic for you, sipa?
2080 2013-03-19 16:26:54 Descry has joined
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2082 2013-03-19 16:27:00 drapetomano has joined
2083 2013-03-19 16:27:29 <CodeShark> I guess it's a good overview
2084 2013-03-19 16:27:52 saulimus has joined
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2086 2013-03-19 16:27:54 fishfish has quit (Quit: Zzzzz..zzzzz)
2087 2013-03-19 16:27:54 <CodeShark> but it seems like the kind of stuff a guy like you could cover in an evening with a couple good books :p
2088 2013-03-19 16:28:04 komododragon_ is now known as komododragon
2089 2013-03-19 16:28:17 vigilyn has joined
2090 2013-03-19 16:28:39 <sipa> perhaps :)
2091 2013-03-19 16:29:04 <FinCEN> We thought we would just help out, make it easier for everyone to just register as an MSB directly on freenode. We take fee payments in BTC as a bonus.
2092 2013-03-19 16:31:17 Luke-Jr has quit (Excess Flood)
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2104 2013-03-19 16:39:35 <gmaxwell> FinCEN: "ha ha", but change your nick please.
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2106 2013-03-19 16:40:58 FinCEN is now known as FinZEN
2107 2013-03-19 16:41:52 <SomeoneWeird> FinZEN, funny, want a ban?
2108 2013-03-19 16:41:57 <SomeoneWeird> :)
2109 2013-03-19 16:42:34 <gmaxwell> hey, I think finzen is funny. :P
2110 2013-03-19 16:43:50 JZavala has joined
2111 2013-03-19 16:43:53 <jgarzik> fizen is cute, as long as the chatter is on-topic
2112 2013-03-19 16:43:58 <jgarzik> *finzen
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2142 2013-03-19 16:57:54 <fattyacids> ECDSA  is implemented in OPENSSL?
2143 2013-03-19 16:57:57 Anduck has joined
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2147 2013-03-19 16:58:21 <fattyacids> why not just ripp it out and put it in pico coin, I dont imagine a fixed ECDSA implementation will change
2148 2013-03-19 16:58:51 <fattyacids> Idont understand the openssl dependency of picocoin,.. or coinlib
2149 2013-03-19 16:59:00 tcatm has joined
2150 2013-03-19 16:59:04 <gmaxwell> moving ecdsa alone doesn't remove the openssl dependency.
2151 2013-03-19 16:59:05 buddyrandom has joined
2152 2013-03-19 16:59:26 <fattyacids> on picocoin? ok, well not only, but sha codes
2153 2013-03-19 16:59:27 <fattyacids> etc
2154 2013-03-19 16:59:46 <fattyacids> basicly just ripp out the modules from ssh you need
2155 2013-03-19 16:59:59 <gmaxwell> fattyacids: and the bignum library..
2156 2013-03-19 17:00:13 <fattyacids> not thinking the algorithm of sha256 will change, that would be funny
2157 2013-03-19 17:00:22 john_____ has joined
2158 2013-03-19 17:00:23 <gmaxwell> And do answer "a fixed ECDSA implementation will change" well, it did last year when it was discovered that it was vulnerable to timing attack.
2159 2013-03-19 17:00:37 Tritonio has joined
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2161 2013-03-19 17:00:51 <Scrat> iirc sipa is working on ditching openssl dep for verification
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2165 2013-03-19 17:01:06 <fattyacids> gmaxwell, off tangent
2166 2013-03-19 17:01:19 <fattyacids> is this a ECDSA thing or an openssl bug?
2167 2013-03-19 17:01:22 <Tritonio> hello. is there a guide on how to fix a wallet after you spend coins from one of the addresses from another machine?
2168 2013-03-19 17:01:25 <gmaxwell> Scrat: sipa's work still depends on openssl still. (Or, alternatively, GMP)
2169 2013-03-19 17:01:36 <sipa> but not on openssl's ECDSA
2170 2013-03-19 17:01:43 <D34TH> BlueMatt: are you alive?
2171 2013-03-19 17:01:49 <sipa> Tritonio: -salvagewallet
2172 2013-03-19 17:01:55 <sipa> Tritonio: but make a backup first
2173 2013-03-19 17:02:04 <fattyacids> sipa you implement ECDSA from scratch? why?
2174 2013-03-19 17:02:16 <gmaxwell> fattyacids: because it is 4x faster than openssl's.
2175 2013-03-19 17:02:31 <fattyacids> gmaxwell, how is this timing attack relevant to weather ECDSA is from openssl or not?
2176 2013-03-19 17:02:39 [1]catcow is now known as catcow
2177 2013-03-19 17:02:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: indeed, which would be a dependency improvement. (... honestly, gmp would be preferable to openssl, but so long as we have ssl support that issue is moot)
2178 2013-03-19 17:02:51 <fattyacids> gmaxwell, how is this timing attack relevant to weather ECDSA is from openssl or not?
2179 2013-03-19 17:02:53 <Tritonio> sipa: thanks I'll try that now.
2180 2013-03-19 17:03:02 <gmaxwell> fattyacids: because it's implementation specific.
2181 2013-03-19 17:03:08 OPrime has joined
2182 2013-03-19 17:03:16 <fattyacids> gmaxwell, ah bug in openssl?
2183 2013-03-19 17:03:30 <gmaxwell> fattyacids: "misfeature"
2184 2013-03-19 17:03:43 <gmaxwell> fattyacids: the particular attack isn't a major concern for us, but I was just making the point that implementations of these things do change.
2185 2013-03-19 17:03:44 <fattyacids> aka bug
2186 2013-03-19 17:03:47 safra has joined
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2189 2013-03-19 17:04:05 <fattyacids> gmaxwell, if it has a bug it must change
2190 2013-03-19 17:04:14 <gmaxwell> For our particular curve we're likely better stewards of an an implementation than openssl is though.
2191 2013-03-19 17:04:14 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, fattyacids: ECDSA is the only _blocker_ to removing OpenSSL in picocoin.  ECDSA is not the only OpenSSL feature picocoin uses... just the one we cannot replace.  The other OpenSSL logic that would be a bear to replace is BIGNUM support.
2192 2013-03-19 17:04:20 <jgarzik> But sipa's lib will require that
2193 2013-03-19 17:04:29 drapetomano has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2194 2013-03-19 17:04:30 <jgarzik> so I would just follow sipa's lead.  I think he was pondering GMP
2195 2013-03-19 17:04:33 <jgarzik> or his own?
2196 2013-03-19 17:04:47 <fattyacids> I dont see why ripping it out of openssl is a problem since you still use the openssl buggy code
2197 2013-03-19 17:04:53 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: sipa's code can use either gmp or openssl. .. though you'd have to rewrite sipa's code in C. :P
2198 2013-03-19 17:04:56 <fattyacids> at least you get ridd of a dependency
2199 2013-03-19 17:05:01 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: not a problem ;p
2200 2013-03-19 17:05:14 <jgarzik> I rewrote most of bitcoin in C and python
2201 2013-03-19 17:05:17 <jgarzik> what's a little more?
2202 2013-03-19 17:05:21 <Scrat> lots of optimization effort has gone into GMP
2203 2013-03-19 17:05:24 moore_ has joined
2204 2013-03-19 17:05:44 <gmaxwell> Scrat: yes, and sipa+gmp is about 20% faster than sipa+openssl.
2205 2013-03-19 17:05:45 klmist has joined
2206 2013-03-19 17:05:46 <fattyacids> anyway,..., any ECDSA algo's on the net that would be good
2207 2013-03-19 17:05:46 <jgarzik> Scrat: yes, I think sipa said it was faster
2208 2013-03-19 17:05:55 <jgarzik> fattyacids: not quite
2209 2013-03-19 17:05:59 <jgarzik> fattyacids: we use a specific curve
2210 2013-03-19 17:06:05 <jgarzik> fattyacids: with curve-specific optimizations
2211 2013-03-19 17:06:15 <gmaxwell> And validation performance matters greatly to us.
2212 2013-03-19 17:06:20 <fattyacids> pre-parameterized
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2215 2013-03-19 17:06:40 <gmaxwell> We are the only major user of our curve that we are aware of.
2216 2013-03-19 17:06:52 <fattyacids> its not making sense to me, the reasons keep changing for wanting not to use openssl
2217 2013-03-19 17:06:59 FredEE has joined
2218 2013-03-19 17:07:20 <gmaxwell> fattyacids: I'm sorry that you're confused.
2219 2013-03-19 17:07:22 <sipa> gmaxwell, jgarzik: i'm considering switching to C anyway - i hardly use any C++ features (less than i originally intended to)
2220 2013-03-19 17:07:36 <fattyacids> sipa, good call,
2221 2013-03-19 17:07:44 <gmaxwell> sipa: that would be good. Its certantly easier to test as straight C.
2222 2013-03-19 17:07:56 <fattyacids> why use C++ just bloated
2223 2013-03-19 17:08:01 <gmaxwell> (e.g. lcov branch analysis is accurate)
2224 2013-03-19 17:08:03 <Scrat> is openssl used heavily anywhere else other than validation, wallet encryption and ssl on rpc?
2225 2013-03-19 17:08:27 <Scrat> well, address creation :p
2226 2013-03-19 17:08:34 <gmaxwell> Scrat: ssl on RPC is perhaps the harder one to replace for bitcoin-qt.
2227 2013-03-19 17:08:40 <fattyacids> will picoin (or better libcoin) be integrated into Qt-clinet in future?
2228 2013-03-19 17:08:42 <bitnumus> dont suppose someone could break this down for me a little more?
2229 2013-03-19 17:08:44 <bitnumus> For private keys associated with uncompressed public keys, they are 51 characters and always start with the number 5. Private keys associated with compressed public keys are 52 characters and start with a capital L or K
2230 2013-03-19 17:08:47 <gmaxwell> (well, not that sipa has high performing ecdsa code)
2231 2013-03-19 17:09:02 <jgarzik> fattyacids: unlikely
2232 2013-03-19 17:09:05 <fattyacids> we dont know that yet, someone tested this?
2233 2013-03-19 17:09:24 <gmaxwell> fattyacids: we don't know what yet?
2234 2013-03-19 17:09:37 <gmaxwell> s/not/now/
2235 2013-03-19 17:09:38 <fattyacids> sipa you have benchmarks on your code, It would be cool to see
2236 2013-03-19 17:09:55 <gmaxwell> fattyacids:  I told you earlier, it's about 4x faster than openssl.
2237 2013-03-19 17:09:58 epilido has joined
2238 2013-03-19 17:10:05 <fattyacids> I was talking to sipa i think
2239 2013-03-19 17:10:18 <sipa> fattyacids: tested what?
2240 2013-03-19 17:10:36 da2ce7_d has joined
2241 2013-03-19 17:10:47 <fattyacids> your ECDSA
2242 2013-03-19 17:10:58 <sipa> yes, i have tested it
2243 2013-03-19 17:11:04 <sipa> not extensively, but yes
2244 2013-03-19 17:11:35 <fattyacids> any bugs like gmaxwell seemed to have encountered in openssl?
2245 2013-03-19 17:11:49 <fattyacids> openssl ECDSA
2246 2013-03-19 17:12:08 <sipa> absolutely
2247 2013-03-19 17:12:09 <Scrat> gmaxwell: I wonder what are your views on bundling openssl
2248 2013-03-19 17:12:10 AtashiCon has joined
2249 2013-03-19 17:12:18 <gmaxwell> ah. fattyacids == kritcoin == oraclecoin == fatAgnes, etc.
2250 2013-03-19 17:12:19 <sipa> since my code isn't even written to run in constant time
2251 2013-03-19 17:12:43 <fattyacids> you have a git repo on your implementation?
2252 2013-03-19 17:13:02 <gmaxwell> Scrat: I'd rather just avoid the dependency for anything related to the blockchain.
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2256 2013-03-19 17:13:22 <gmaxwell> Scrat: as far as SSL, I'd very much not want to bundle that.
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2259 2013-03-19 17:13:34 <fattyacids> dir
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2261 2013-03-19 17:13:41 <gmaxwell> Scrat: I'd be more inclined to drop the use of SSL— except for the fact that the payment protocol stuff will use it.
2262 2013-03-19 17:13:44 <fattyacids> lol, sorry, i was in teh wrong termanial
2263 2013-03-19 17:14:03 <fattyacids> jgarzik, I am happy to see you here
2264 2013-03-19 17:14:11 <fattyacids> I tried compiling picocoin with mgsys
2265 2013-03-19 17:14:16 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2266 2013-03-19 17:14:18 <fattyacids> but i got this errorlog
2267 2013-03-19 17:14:24 <fattyacids> let me show you
2268 2013-03-19 17:14:32 <gmaxwell> Scrat: what we currently use ssl for could be better replaced with stunnel.
2269 2013-03-19 17:14:45 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: ugh
2270 2013-03-19 17:15:17 <komododragon> Is development of sending to aliases moving along?  Is it reasonable to expect this feature by the end of the year?
2271 2013-03-19 17:15:37 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: extending the RPC across a public network is ugh to begin with, and our use of SSL there greatly increases our security exposure surface, at least when someone actually exposes that port to the internet.
2272 2013-03-19 17:15:40 <sipa> komododragon: you're referring to the payment protcol?
2273 2013-03-19 17:15:56 t7 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2274 2013-03-19 17:16:03 <bitnumus> Can someone explain to me what the difference is between a compressed and uncompressed public key, and why i would have one or the other (trying to dump private keys)
2275 2013-03-19 17:16:03 <sipa> that's not exactly aliases, but it's far superior to that
2276 2013-03-19 17:16:06 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2278 2013-03-19 17:16:26 <sipa> bitnumus: compressed: only X coordinate and whether the Y coordinate is odd or even
2279 2013-03-19 17:16:30 <sipa> bitnumus: uncompressed both X and Y coordinate
2280 2013-03-19 17:16:41 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: older bitcoin software generated uncompressed key, newer software generates compressed ones. Compressed ones take less space when spending.
2281 2013-03-19 17:16:41 <Tritonio> sipa: salvage was working all this time and it popped up this: "Cannot initialize keypool"
2282 2013-03-19 17:17:00 <gmaxwell> Tritonio: I guess you have an encrypted wallet?
2283 2013-03-19 17:17:06 <Tritonio> yes
2284 2013-03-19 17:17:07 <bitnumus> ah, i've only ever seen beginning with a 5, this new wallet begins with L, so everything is glorious ?
2285 2013-03-19 17:17:23 <bitnumus> keep calm, carry on ?
2286 2013-03-19 17:17:24 <komododragon> sipa: yes I was talking about the payment protocol
2287 2013-03-19 17:17:31 <sipa> bitnumus: you mean addresses, not wallets
2288 2013-03-19 17:17:33 <gmaxwell> Tritonio: I have a patch that fixes that bug, but I'm not super confident in it. The problem is that salvage drops the keypool but it can't be refilled because the wallet is encrypted.
2289 2013-03-19 17:17:33 <BlueMatt> D34TH: whats up?
2290 2013-03-19 17:17:43 <bitnumus> sipa, its an address in a new wallet
2291 2013-03-19 17:17:49 <sipa> bitnumus: and yes, private keys for compressed public key start with K or L
2292 2013-03-19 17:17:53 <sipa> when in base58 format
2293 2013-03-19 17:18:07 KIDC` is now known as KIDC
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2296 2013-03-19 17:18:13 <Tritonio> gmaxwell: do I care about the keypool?
2297 2013-03-19 17:18:16 <fattyacids> sipa, do you have your ECDSA implementation on the net somewhere, would like to take a look at it
2298 2013-03-19 17:18:25 <fattyacids> maybe github?
2299 2013-03-19 17:18:26 <bitnumus> sipa, thanks
2300 2013-03-19 17:18:27 <gmaxwell> Tritonio: I have (had? would have to find it) a patch to make bitcoin work in spite of it, but I'm not sure if it exposes other issues.
2301 2013-03-19 17:18:41 <sipa> fattyacids: https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1
2302 2013-03-19 17:18:47 <fattyacids> thanks man
2303 2013-03-19 17:19:01 Anduck has joined
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2306 2013-03-19 17:19:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: another advantage of making it straight C would be that it would be easier to get it running in embedded and otherwise constrained enviroments, such as the TPM stuff hal did.
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2311 2013-03-19 17:21:42 <BlueMatt> sipa: how easy would that be to import and use in bitcoinj via jni?
2312 2013-03-19 17:22:03 <gmaxwell> ... easier once making it straight C. :P
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2314 2013-03-19 17:22:08 <Scrat> gmaxwell: sure, then you can do stuff like payment callbacks without worrying about that (I think an argument that was raised against it was that it would be too complex to implement SSL client certificates). you simply delegate all that to stunnel. I don't know what's your stance on high-level features like that in the reference client though :p
2315 2013-03-19 17:22:17 <sipa> BlueMatt: this is the only public function: https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1/blob/master/secp256k1.h
2316 2013-03-19 17:22:20 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, yes, but it should be doable without...
2317 2013-03-19 17:22:37 <jgarzik> JNI... that still gives me nightmares, from the TowerJ days
2318 2013-03-19 17:22:40 <BlueMatt> sipa: nice! Ill do that at some point :)
2319 2013-03-19 17:22:59 <sipa> BlueMatt: and it at least succesfully validates the entire main chain
2320 2013-03-19 17:23:03 <jgarzik> (TowerJ was a static Java compiler that beat all others, including gcj and Sun offerings)
2321 2013-03-19 17:23:17 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you might want to make a small shim that takes a batch so you don't cross the C<>Java boundary more often than needed.
2322 2013-03-19 17:23:32 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, thats probably ideal
2323 2013-03-19 17:23:36 <gmaxwell> Scrat: I think we did intend to include a payment protocol implementation in the reference client.
2324 2013-03-19 17:23:53 <BlueMatt> sipa: nice, I know there are some fun edge cases in the main chain, so its probably close....
2325 2013-03-19 17:23:56 <TD> hey
2326 2013-03-19 17:24:20 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: heh, well java sucks (tm)
2327 2013-03-19 17:24:33 berni23 has joined
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2329 2013-03-19 17:24:33 berni23 has joined
2330 2013-03-19 17:24:55 <BlueMatt> hi TD
2331 2013-03-19 17:25:02 rdymac has joined
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2333 2013-03-19 17:25:10 <TD> CNI is a much nicer interface
2334 2013-03-19 17:25:18 <TD> unfortunately then you have to deal with gcc and gnu classpath
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2336 2013-03-19 17:26:45 berni23 is now known as bernard75
2337 2013-03-19 17:26:49 <Scrat> TD: time to rewrite everything in js, V8 will soon be > *
2338 2013-03-19 17:26:53 <Scrat> :~)
2339 2013-03-19 17:27:13 <TD> hmmm :)
2340 2013-03-19 17:27:22 <Tritonio> Any way to decrypt my wallet before running salvage? The wallet is not destroyed in any way. It just doesn't know about a transaction or two.
2341 2013-03-19 17:27:27 <BlueMatt> we already have a bitcoin impl in js
2342 2013-03-19 17:27:35 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
2343 2013-03-19 17:27:36 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: payment protocol directly in client?
2344 2013-03-19 17:27:38 deego has joined
2345 2013-03-19 17:27:54 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I had rather hoped on something a little more... bitmessage-like, for the actual messaging
2346 2013-03-19 17:27:57 space_cadet has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2347 2013-03-19 17:28:00 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: better privacy
2348 2013-03-19 17:28:36 <polrpaul> 0.8.1 reindexing was painless, thx guys
2349 2013-03-19 17:29:23 <gmaxwell> Tritonio: if it just doesn't know about a transaction or two, it will know about them after they get mined.
2350 2013-03-19 17:29:24 Belkaar has joined
2351 2013-03-19 17:29:29 <gmaxwell> (and after it syncs up)
2352 2013-03-19 17:29:31 pizzacat has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2353 2013-03-19 17:29:33 * egecko finishes updating his node to 0.5.3
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2360 2013-03-19 17:30:54 <Scrat> TD: I bet that google are slowly distancing themselves from everything java related (what do you have to say about that?). I'm anxiously waiting for I/O 2013
2361 2013-03-19 17:31:01 space_cadet has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2363 2013-03-19 17:31:09 <Tritonio> gmaxwell: I imported the wallet on bc.info. Did a transaction. After a few days I stopped using bc.info and came back to qt. Did a rescan IIRC and then send 3BTC to my android. Qt created an invalid tx at that point that uses already spent coins.
2364 2013-03-19 17:31:27 <BlueMatt> uploaded 0.8.1 to ubuntu ppa, sorry for the delay
2365 2013-03-19 17:31:35 berni23 is now known as bernard75
2366 2013-03-19 17:31:39 <polrpaul> aww thx BlueMatt !
2367 2013-03-19 17:31:42 <BlueMatt> (probably wont be up for a number of hours thanks to launchpad slowless)
2368 2013-03-19 17:31:42 <gmaxwell> Tritonio: has that first transaction been mined yet?
2369 2013-03-19 17:31:51 <Scrat> Go/Dart/V8 a first class citizen on android (pick one)
2370 2013-03-19 17:32:02 <Tritonio> gmaxwell: of course, it has a week alreadyt i think.
2371 2013-03-19 17:32:10 <Scrat> this is my prediction
2372 2013-03-19 17:32:15 <TD> Scrat: why do you think we're distancing ourselves from java?
2373 2013-03-19 17:32:29 <jgarzik> Oracle lawsuits?
2374 2013-03-19 17:32:30 * jgarzik runs
2375 2013-03-19 17:32:34 AtashiCon has joined
2376 2013-03-19 17:32:42 <Tritonio> Scrat: you mean we might be able to make android apps in JS?
2377 2013-03-19 17:32:46 <TD> yes, we should switch to .net - that'd be much better
2378 2013-03-19 17:33:00 <TD> no chance of stupid patent trolling there
2379 2013-03-19 17:33:04 <Scrat> TD: haha I know that you hate Go
2380 2013-03-19 17:33:31 <Scrat> and to answer your question, nothing concrete, just subtle signs
2381 2013-03-19 17:33:41 <BlueMatt> Scrat: java is far too embedded in the android world, and app dev experience is incredibly important...making people switch away from java now seems...dumb
2382 2013-03-19 17:33:57 <TD> we aren't going to rewrite over 100 million lines of code into Go, end of story. even if Go was the best thing evar, which it is not.
2383 2013-03-19 17:33:59 <BlueMatt> plus so many devs already know java
2384 2013-03-19 17:34:45 <fattyacids> sipa can you make a c implementation of your https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1
2385 2013-03-19 17:34:53 <fattyacids> assembler would be even more cool ;=))
2386 2013-03-19 17:36:02 devrandom has quit (Quit: leaving)
2387 2013-03-19 17:36:09 guidebook has joined
2388 2013-03-19 17:36:11 <MKCoin> :o http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/us-regulator-bitcoin-exchanges-must-comply-with-money-laundering-laws/
2389 2013-03-19 17:36:16 devrandom has joined
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2391 2013-03-19 17:36:26 <BlueMatt> TD: re: h2 failing on large reorg: that saddens me a lot...it seems like there arent any great pure-java library dbs that I can find...
2392 2013-03-19 17:36:36 <BlueMatt> TD: not really sure about what to do about that
2393 2013-03-19 17:36:40 berni23 has joined
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2395 2013-03-19 17:36:40 berni23 has joined
2396 2013-03-19 17:36:52 <TD> BlueMatt: you mean the timeout thing?
2397 2013-03-19 17:36:53 Belkaar has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2398 2013-03-19 17:36:58 <BlueMatt> TD: yea
2399 2013-03-19 17:37:00 <D34TH> BlueMatt: will your jenkins continue functioning, or is it down?
2400 2013-03-19 17:37:14 <BlueMatt> D34TH: its down until I can fix the block tester for 0.8.1
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2402 2013-03-19 17:37:23 <TD> BlueMatt: yes. that does suck. perhaps there's a simple tweak. alternatively leveldb has java bindings.
2403 2013-03-19 17:37:39 <D34TH> BlueMatt: thnx
2404 2013-03-19 17:38:27 JZavala has joined
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2406 2013-03-19 17:38:48 <CodeShark> BlueMatt: java in the android world is only the language - not the virtual machine
2407 2013-03-19 17:38:57 pete91 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2408 2013-03-19 17:39:16 jsfsn has joined
2409 2013-03-19 17:39:21 <BlueMatt> TD: I kind of like the idea of using leveldb, but I really dont want to use the same db as bitcoind/-qt, because that kills some of the network diversity gains that having another full-verifying supported implementation provides :(
2410 2013-03-19 17:39:23 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2411 2013-03-19 17:39:36 <CodeShark> android uses dalvik
2412 2013-03-19 17:39:41 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: afaik dalvik isnt written in java
2413 2013-03-19 17:39:47 <gmaxwell> plus a mandatory non-java dep is kinda lame.
2414 2013-03-19 17:40:03 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea
2415 2013-03-19 17:40:04 <gmaxwell> at least jni ecdsa would be optional.
2416 2013-03-19 17:40:40 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, Im comfortable with jni ecdsa as long as its optional, and plus its only going to be used on a real machine, not a phone/tablet/etc so it wont have to be compiled for android or similar
2417 2013-03-19 17:40:55 <BlueMatt> (it would probably only be used for fully verifying)
2418 2013-03-19 17:41:48 kadoban has joined
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2420 2013-03-19 17:41:58 <jgarzik> TD: Sadly, I think Go will be long cursed by the famous 32 bit bug
2421 2013-03-19 17:42:14 <BlueMatt> oh, though using leveldb would only be full-verifying too, but...still
2422 2013-03-19 17:42:15 <jgarzik> TD: will take a while to rebuild that trust, even if it is a fantastic language otherwise
2423 2013-03-19 17:43:22 ilian000 has joined
2424 2013-03-19 17:43:33 <ilian000> What is a good python API with a receivedTx event?
2425 2013-03-19 17:43:54 hsmithsN7_ has joined
2426 2013-03-19 17:44:00 bernard75 has joined
2427 2013-03-19 17:44:17 <jgarzik> ilian000: depends on your needs.  pynode's mini-node will watch for blocks and TX's.  https://github.com/jgarzik/pynode/tree/mini-node
2428 2013-03-19 17:44:55 Belkaar has joined
2429 2013-03-19 17:45:24 joey_meyer has joined
2430 2013-03-19 17:45:37 <ilian000> Yes, but it uses a 8333 listner... Is it possible to do this in an easier way?
2431 2013-03-19 17:45:50 dlb76 has joined
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2433 2013-03-19 17:45:58 pete78 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2434 2013-03-19 17:46:41 <CodeShark> I have a websockets implementation for this
2435 2013-03-19 17:47:22 <CodeShark> haven't pushed the latest version, though
2436 2013-03-19 17:47:23 <ilian000> Like ws://blockchain.info/inv?
2437 2013-03-19 17:47:37 <CodeShark> yes - and you can add custom filters
2438 2013-03-19 17:47:49 <ilian000> Aah, that's kinda cool
2439 2013-03-19 17:48:01 _pr has joined
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2441 2013-03-19 17:48:23 <TD> jgarzik: oh, i just don't think it's a very interesting language
2442 2013-03-19 17:48:28 <TD> jgarzik: though i'm sure they've had some weird bugs too
2443 2013-03-19 17:49:01 <TD> BlueMatt: well, you know what i think about diversity ..... in this case the diversity H2 brings is a new set of chain forking bugs
2444 2013-03-19 17:49:05 <TD> BlueMatt: (potentially)
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2447 2013-03-19 17:51:12 <Scrat> jgarzik: Re: 32 bit bug: Mar 12 (6 days ago) Labels: -Go1.1 Go1.1Maybe
2448 2013-03-19 17:51:14 <Scrat> that sucks
2449 2013-03-19 17:51:17 OPrime has quit (Quit: OPrime)
2450 2013-03-19 17:52:10 <ilian000> ;;tslb
2451 2013-03-19 17:52:13 <gribble> Time since last block: 1 hour and 58 seconds
2452 2013-03-19 17:53:18 <BlueMatt> TD: yea :( the fact that there are limits on size of operations makes some sense, but time limits seems strange to say the least...ideally though we would have no limits aside from memory/disk...probably just means I need to go through h2 docs a ton to find more info on such limits (like should have been done with bdb...also, has anyone done such a thing with leveldb?)
2453 2013-03-19 17:53:38 <TD> i've read most of the leveldb source code
2454 2013-03-19 17:53:40 <TD> (not all of it)
2455 2013-03-19 17:53:47 <TD> i didn't see any arbitrary limits that jumped out at me
2456 2013-03-19 17:53:54 <BlueMatt> well, I suppose thats 10x more than anyone ever did with bdb
2457 2013-03-19 17:54:07 <TD> there are plenty of magic numbers, though
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2460 2013-03-19 17:55:49 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I missed the context, but it sounds like the database bitcoinj's full node support uses has some bizarre limit on the size of a transaction, preventing large reorgs?
2461 2013-03-19 17:56:35 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, a time-based limit it appears
2462 2013-03-19 17:56:39 <BlueMatt> of all things...
2463 2013-03-19 17:56:50 lb4956 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2464 2013-03-19 17:57:00 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I do note that that kind of thing continues to validate my "your code is only as tested as the number of bugs you found in the reference client..." :P   oh.. time based. Concentrated fail.
2465 2013-03-19 17:57:51 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: Im still not so convinced of that...though it may be sort of related...
2466 2013-03-19 17:58:32 HiWEB has joined
2467 2013-03-19 17:58:41 <TD> databases are big mysterious blobs of complexity. especially as H2 is sql
2468 2013-03-19 17:59:02 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: :) Just the point that the same kind of tests needed to uncover the bitcoin <0.8 bug were also needed to uncover that bug— though the details of the bugs were different, finding them is still a proxy for test comprehensiveness.
2469 2013-03-19 18:00:17 Guest20208 is now known as grapevine
2470 2013-03-19 18:00:37 <BlueMatt> TD: yea, the more Ive seen of H2, the less I like it...but Derby is unusably slow and there dont appear to be many better java dbs :(...maybe Ill just write a generic SQL FullPrunedBlockStore and let people use a real db as the backend...
2471 2013-03-19 18:01:01 <TD> i am not convinced that will solve the problem of weird unexpected timeouts
2472 2013-03-19 18:01:12 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, Im thinking of adding a second part to block tester that just tests volume handling with massive reorgs...
2473 2013-03-19 18:01:42 <BlueMatt> TD: well, if nothing else it would mean more well-tested dbs, like the use of a postresql or mysql as a backend
2474 2013-03-19 18:02:02 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
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2476 2013-03-19 18:04:14 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: at least one thing you can do is distingush DB failure from other kinds of failure and shut down the node instead of going off on a fork.
2477 2013-03-19 18:04:35 <gmaxwell> At least for non-determinstic behavior thats probably the best thing to do.
2478 2013-03-19 18:04:42 oleganza has joined
2479 2013-03-19 18:05:43 <BlueMatt> yea, it gets a BlockStoreException which ends up getting re-thrown as a RuntimeException, so I believe that is (sort of) what happens, though I think it may end up only killing that peer's thread...TD?
2480 2013-03-19 18:05:49 viperhr1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2482 2013-03-19 18:06:32 <BlueMatt> some kind of runtime safe-mode which gets triggered on conditions like that is probably ideal
2483 2013-03-19 18:06:47 <gmaxwell> lost-mind-mode.
2484 2013-03-19 18:08:34 Guest20599 is now known as Hasimir
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2488 2013-03-19 18:09:18 <fattyacids> jgarzik, why do you use libeven in picocoin?
2489 2013-03-19 18:09:36 <fattyacids> jgarzik, why do you use libevent* (typo) in picocoin?
2490 2013-03-19 18:09:45 <jgarzik> fattyacids: brd is a network socket server.
2491 2013-03-19 18:09:53 <jgarzik> fattyacids: libevent is not required by the core library, libccoin
2492 2013-03-19 18:10:03 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2493 2013-03-19 18:11:05 <fattyacids> jgarzik, libevent seems featurerich, what specificly do you use from libevent?
2494 2013-03-19 18:11:17 grau has joined
2495 2013-03-19 18:11:19 <jgarzik> fattyacids: what everybody uses from libevent :)
2496 2013-03-19 18:11:36 <fattyacids> lol
2497 2013-03-19 18:11:40 <fattyacids> ok
2498 2013-03-19 18:12:05 <TD> BlueMatt: yes it will disconnect that peer and try again on a different peer. so if the db is just completely unable to handle that, it'll go into an infinite loop
2499 2013-03-19 18:12:09 theendorso has joined
2500 2013-03-19 18:12:13 <fattyacids> I am crazy about IOCompletionports
2501 2013-03-19 18:12:19 <TD> BlueMatt: if it's just a temporary glitch then it should make it past eventually
2502 2013-03-19 18:13:32 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2504 2013-03-19 18:14:42 <TD> BlueMatt: question
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2508 2013-03-19 18:15:09 <TD> BlueMatt: when the bloom filter is updated server-side, should it be rematched against all pending mempool transactions automatically, or is it better to wait for a mempool command from the client?
2509 2013-03-19 18:15:35 eitan has joined
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2511 2013-03-19 18:15:56 ielo has joined
2512 2013-03-19 18:16:03 <eitan> hello, I have some questions about bitcoin script
2513 2013-03-19 18:16:06 <gmaxwell> TD: how do you prevent that from being a DOS attack? e.g. with a big mempool someone keeps churning their filter.
2514 2013-03-19 18:16:09 rdymac has joined
2515 2013-03-19 18:16:29 <TD> you can already do that by interleaving new filters and the mempool command anyway
2516 2013-03-19 18:16:41 <eitan> question 1: when you sign a transaction, what specifically is the message you are signing that the recipient must verify?
2517 2013-03-19 18:16:52 guidebook has quit (Quit: guidebook)
2518 2013-03-19 18:17:08 <TD> a modified version of the transaction itself
2519 2013-03-19 18:17:20 <gmaxwell> eitan: the transaction with certian parts removed. Which parts depends on the sighash type.
2520 2013-03-19 18:17:38 Maneesh has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2521 2013-03-19 18:17:38 <gmaxwell> (well technically signing a hash of that stuff— of course)
2522 2013-03-19 18:18:02 <eitan> TD and gmaxwell: Thanks
2523 2013-03-19 18:18:14 theendorso has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2524 2013-03-19 18:18:22 pegu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2525 2013-03-19 18:18:24 <eitan> but that hashing is done pre-script, right?
2526 2013-03-19 18:18:35 <eitan> hashing and signing that is
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2529 2013-03-19 18:18:49 space_cadet has joined
2530 2013-03-19 18:19:03 <fattyacids> !ticker
2531 2013-03-19 18:19:03 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 57.65009, Best ask: 57.76000, Bid-ask spread: 0.10991, Last trade: 57.76000, 24 hour volume: 143965.03882593, 24 hour low: 47.60000, 24 hour high: 62.00000, 24 hour vwap: 52.96394
2532 2013-03-19 18:19:05 <gmaxwell> eitan: what do you mean "pre-script"?
2533 2013-03-19 18:19:23 <fattyacids> 47 ?
2534 2013-03-19 18:19:24 <gmaxwell> eitan: scriptsigs are part of the data excluded from the hashing.
2535 2013-03-19 18:19:27 <fattyacids> bug?
2536 2013-03-19 18:19:52 <eitan> lemme work with an example to make my question more concrete
2537 2013-03-19 18:20:01 berni23 has joined
2538 2013-03-19 18:20:07 <eitan> Let's say we have the following script:
2539 2013-03-19 18:20:09 <eitan> "OP_DUP OP_HASH160 14 Bytes to push 89 AB CD EF AB BA AB BA AB BA AB BA AB BA AB BA AB BA AB BA OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG"
2540 2013-03-19 18:20:14 <gmaxwell> fattyacids: I asked you to stop with the repeated ticker in here earlier… we're all capable of watching it if we care.
2541 2013-03-19 18:20:25 <CodeShark> eitan, you might want to take a look at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKSIG in case you haven't
2542 2013-03-19 18:20:27 <bVector> no it was 47 yesterday
2543 2013-03-19 18:20:41 <fattyacids> true bVector
2544 2013-03-19 18:20:54 <fattyacids> 47 hour high low
2545 2013-03-19 18:20:57 <eitan> CodeShark: Thanks...any good resource is helpful...i find the "script" page on the wiki really hard to understand
2546 2013-03-19 18:21:02 viperhr1 has joined
2547 2013-03-19 18:21:06 HiWEB has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2548 2013-03-19 18:21:14 <fattyacids> gmaxwell, dont get it, why not disable the tciker?
2549 2013-03-19 18:21:21 <gmaxwell> eitan: okay, thats a scriptpubkey. All of that gets covered in the signature of a transaction outputting to it.
2550 2013-03-19 18:21:33 pegu has joined
2551 2013-03-19 18:21:41 <fattyacids> "we have a ticker but please dont use it, huh?"
2552 2013-03-19 18:21:55 <CodeShark> eitan, the script is a stack machine. each operation acts on previous things pushed onto the stack and either removes them, modifies them, or adds more stuff onto the stack
2553 2013-03-19 18:21:58 bernard75 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2554 2013-03-19 18:22:07 <gmaxwell> fattyacids: because banning people who abuse it is easier and doesn't get in the way of using it when its important to discussion or hitting a new historic price.
2555 2013-03-19 18:22:08 <fattyacids> I dont thin kI was spamming ticker every 10 sec
2556 2013-03-19 18:22:20 <fattyacids> ah vail threats, always nice
2557 2013-03-19 18:22:26 <CodeShark> OP_CHECKSIG is a bit tricky because it's a higher level operation than most of the rest
2558 2013-03-19 18:22:47 <gmaxwell> fattyacids: You're already banned in the channels under several other names.
2559 2013-03-19 18:23:24 <fattyacids> well, you seem to like me very much for some reason, or hate my oracle advocacy
2560 2013-03-19 18:23:34 <fattyacids> *loves oracle*
2561 2013-03-19 18:23:38 swappermall has joined
2562 2013-03-19 18:23:41 <eitan> gmaxwell...sorry, yeah, that's the script pubkey...in the script sig you have a signature followed by a public key
2563 2013-03-19 18:24:04 deeffs has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2564 2013-03-19 18:24:08 <gmaxwell> eitan: So— whats your question?
2565 2013-03-19 18:24:15 <eitan> so specifically, how do you construct the thing to hash and then sign?
2566 2013-03-19 18:24:29 <eitan> what in detail is the "message"?
2567 2013-03-19 18:24:47 [\\\] has joined
2568 2013-03-19 18:24:52 <eitan> i'll take a look at the link CodeShark gave me too...maybe the details are there?
2569 2013-03-19 18:25:02 <gmaxwell> eitan: yes, do that.
2570 2013-03-19 18:25:08 <CodeShark> check out etotheipi's diagram
2571 2013-03-19 18:25:15 <eitan> gmaxwel...haha, ok :-)
2572 2013-03-19 18:25:21 <gmaxwell> eitan: in particular https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png
2573 2013-03-19 18:25:23 <CodeShark> https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png
2574 2013-03-19 18:25:27 <CodeShark> haha
2575 2013-03-19 18:25:49 <eitan> oh awesome...thanks guys :-)
2576 2013-03-19 18:25:51 Duly has joined
2577 2013-03-19 18:25:52 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2578 2013-03-19 18:26:04 <jouke> Oh damn, why didn't I never looked at that before.
2579 2013-03-19 18:26:09 <eitan> ok...question 2
2580 2013-03-19 18:26:21 <eitan> the stack just holds integers right?
2581 2013-03-19 18:26:32 MJR__ has joined
2582 2013-03-19 18:26:34 * jouke is silently folowing eitan questions.
2583 2013-03-19 18:26:37 <CodeShark> bitcoin only deals with integer types
2584 2013-03-19 18:26:50 stretchwarren has joined
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2586 2013-03-19 18:28:12 <eitan> does the representation format of the integers on the stack (i.e. little endian variable length byte vectors) matter for interoperability of the protocol, or is that just how all the clients happen to represent?
2587 2013-03-19 18:28:13 <CodeShark> it actually holds arbitrary binary data, eitan, but byte-aligned
2588 2013-03-19 18:28:31 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2589 2013-03-19 18:28:31 <eitan> ok, so that makes me think, yeah it matters
2590 2013-03-19 18:28:46 <CodeShark> it matters very much
2591 2013-03-19 18:29:04 <CodeShark> endianness is one of the banes of bitcoin :p
2592 2013-03-19 18:29:18 <eitan> can u maybe briefly explain?
2593 2013-03-19 18:29:53 <CodeShark> the wire datatypes are here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
2594 2013-03-19 18:29:56 <gmaxwell> eitan: all this data gets hashed, it matters how you've serialized it.
2595 2013-03-19 18:29:57 Belkaar has joined
2596 2013-03-19 18:30:10 <CodeShark> that document describes how objects get serialized
2597 2013-03-19 18:30:59 <eitan> ok wow...all so low level :-/
2598 2013-03-19 18:32:04 <CodeShark> the serialization is not only important for the sake of correctly interpreting data values - it's also critical for hashing
2599 2013-03-19 18:32:20 <TD> serialization is *really* not the most complicated part of managing transactions ....
2600 2013-03-19 18:32:23 <BlueMatt> TD: Id say leave it for now, though mempool needs to be fixed to be topsorted still, no?
2601 2013-03-19 18:32:30 <BlueMatt> (that is way higher priority)
2602 2013-03-19 18:32:31 <eitan> so my best bet is to work on a serialization function that works on all the important data structures
2603 2013-03-19 18:32:41 <CodeShark> what are you trying to do, eitan?
2604 2013-03-19 18:32:42 <TD> BlueMatt: yeah i filed a bug on it the other day. also it doesn't use PushInventory so it repeats tx transmissions
2605 2013-03-19 18:32:51 <TD> but that's a minor optimization win
2606 2013-03-19 18:33:03 <BlueMatt> TD: and since bloom filter is usually being updated during ibd only anyway, I wouldnt worry about it
2607 2013-03-19 18:33:04 <eitan> i'm working on writing an implementation of the protocol in haskell...in order to learn bitcoin and haskell :-)
2608 2013-03-19 18:33:18 <CodeShark> so yeah, start with the serialization/deserialization code, eitan
2609 2013-03-19 18:33:19 <BlueMatt> TD: so seems better to only send mempool after update when asked
2610 2013-03-19 18:33:20 <CodeShark> :)
2611 2013-03-19 18:33:26 <TD> ok
2612 2013-03-19 18:33:40 <gmaxwell> eitan: so I shouldn't show you purecoin?
2613 2013-03-19 18:33:44 <eitan> CodeShark: Good advice, thanks!
2614 2013-03-19 18:34:09 <fattyacids> https://github.com/gmaxwell
2615 2013-03-19 18:34:23 <fattyacids> nice to meet you)
2616 2013-03-19 18:34:31 <TD> BlueMatt: the issue is .... pending tx is broadcast that spends an output which was to your key. it's an orphan tx. now a block comes along which defines that tx. pending tx is now in mempool and eligible for block inclusion but the client didn
2617 2013-03-19 18:34:33 <TD> didn't hear about it
2618 2013-03-19 18:34:38 <eitan> gmaxwell: i've looked at purecoin...it's incomplete, no?
2619 2013-03-19 18:34:47 <gmaxwell> Correct.
2620 2013-03-19 18:34:47 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2621 2013-03-19 18:34:53 fattyacids has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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2623 2013-03-19 18:35:09 <TD> eitan: implementing bitcoin is a BIG effort. you are very unlikely to finish within the next 2 years unless you can work on it full time
2624 2013-03-19 18:35:14 <gmaxwell> finally. took the snipers long enough.
2625 2013-03-19 18:35:35 <eitan> for my own code...so far i've only really finished the secp256k1 code
2626 2013-03-19 18:35:41 <TD> there's 50 btc in fees pending?
2627 2013-03-19 18:35:46 <TD> ouch
2628 2013-03-19 18:35:48 <CodeShark> TD: it doesn't take two years to implement a full protocol stack :)
2629 2013-03-19 18:36:05 <gmaxwell> TD: the last several times thats happened its just been a single bozo transaction
2630 2013-03-19 18:36:06 <TD> CodeShark: oh yes it does .... like i said, the serialization is really the most basic part of all.
2631 2013-03-19 18:36:18 <BlueMatt> TD: hmm?
2632 2013-03-19 18:36:30 <eitan> TD: what do you think the difficult parts to implement are?
2633 2013-03-19 18:36:36 <lianj> node rules
2634 2013-03-19 18:36:47 pizzacat has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2635 2013-03-19 18:36:56 <TD> all of the protocol edge cases and obscure things. look at the bitcoinj wallet code for a taste.
2636 2013-03-19 18:36:56 <lianj> db storage, coin selection
2637 2013-03-19 18:36:56 Belkaar has joined
2638 2013-03-19 18:37:01 <gmaxwell> eitan: it's like building a ship in a bottle. Lots of little details which must be just so— not any great big hard parts.
2639 2013-03-19 18:37:22 <CodeShark> don't discourage him, guys :)
2640 2013-03-19 18:37:29 <CodeShark> it's a cool educational project
2641 2013-03-19 18:37:34 <eitan> haha, well now i am a little discouraged
2642 2013-03-19 18:37:36 <TD> BlueMatt: if a pending tx comes before a block that makes it relevant, you won't hear about it because the filter is matched during initial broadcast/relay
2643 2013-03-19 18:37:39 <TD> BlueMatt: i think ...
2644 2013-03-19 18:37:41 shlm has joined
2645 2013-03-19 18:37:42 * TD needs to check the code again
2646 2013-03-19 18:37:49 <eitan> maybe i'll just work on an elliptic curve crypto package instead lol
2647 2013-03-19 18:37:56 <TD> that might be easier
2648 2013-03-19 18:38:07 <BlueMatt> TD: ahh, ok, thats probably true...hmm...
2649 2013-03-19 18:38:19 <CodeShark> eitan: it isn't as horrible as everyone's making it out to be...but it isn't trivial either
2650 2013-03-19 18:38:21 <eitan> except i would like to understand bitcoin and work on bitcoin related stuff
2651 2013-03-19 18:38:34 <muhoo> eitan: just go for it.
2652 2013-03-19 18:38:59 <muhoo> what have you got to lose, really?
2653 2013-03-19 18:39:11 <eitan> time and sanity i suppose
2654 2013-03-19 18:39:31 <lianj> but its good to understand bitcoin
2655 2013-03-19 18:39:49 <eitan> for sure...i'm a big fan of btc ^_^
2656 2013-03-19 18:40:03 <CodeShark> eitan: start by building the serialization and some basic networking code (so you can connect to other nodes and grab data from them.)
2657 2013-03-19 18:40:33 <eitan> CodeShark...yeah...guess I better work on proper serialization code, then script, then networking
2658 2013-03-19 18:40:58 <CodeShark> don't worry about full-blown verification and block chain management yet
2659 2013-03-19 18:41:15 <eitan> one thing i thought would be really easy in haskell is hierarchical deterministic wallets
2660 2013-03-19 18:41:51 <CodeShark> in fact, I would argue there are many cool bitcoin applications that can be built (such as hierarchical wallets) that can use other nodes for the verification just fine so they don't have to do it themselves
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2662 2013-03-19 18:42:13 <eitan> yeah, i figured the actual networking part would be the hardest
2663 2013-03-19 18:42:27 <muhoo> messiest, perhaps, because you're dealing with the real world.
2664 2013-03-19 18:42:33 <eitan> and the rules issues, so i'm not surprised by that
2665 2013-03-19 18:42:33 <muhoo> not necessarily hardest.
2666 2013-03-19 18:42:51 <eitan> for someone with little real world experience like moi
2667 2013-03-19 18:42:53 <BlueMatt> TD: I should read the code again, but do we not currently relay matching txn in mempool even if they are orphans?
2668 2013-03-19 18:42:59 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2669 2013-03-19 18:43:03 Gigitrix-Phone has joined
2670 2013-03-19 18:43:15 <TD> BlueMatt: i'm not sure. anyway, i have a headache and am heading home. later
2671 2013-03-19 18:43:21 sebicas has joined
2672 2013-03-19 18:43:29 <BlueMatt> TD: oh, feel better
2673 2013-03-19 18:43:33 <TD> ta
2674 2013-03-19 18:44:10 <muhoo> eitan: so write the pure-function stuff that you find fun and interesting. open source it. if you get bored and abandon it, someone can always wrap that all in a monad later and finish the messy parts.
2675 2013-03-19 18:44:48 <eitan> muhoo...sounds like a plan for now :-)
2676 2013-03-19 18:45:02 kasimirg has joined
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2678 2013-03-19 18:46:24 <CodeShark> set up a local bitcoind instance on your machine and connect to it for verification and alerts
2679 2013-03-19 18:46:42 <CodeShark> then you can play around with the message structures
2680 2013-03-19 18:46:56 <CodeShark> without having to worry about building a full node
2681 2013-03-19 18:47:16 <eitan> i think there's even a package for calling bitcoind in haskell
2682 2013-03-19 18:47:27 <CodeShark> well, there's the rpc as well
2683 2013-03-19 18:47:31 <CodeShark> I was talking about the p2p protocol
2684 2013-03-19 18:47:34 <eitan> sure
2685 2013-03-19 18:47:51 <eitan> i know
2686 2013-03-19 18:49:21 <CodeShark> that's actually how I got started in bitcoin :p
2687 2013-03-19 18:51:17 Gigitrix-Phone has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com ))
2688 2013-03-19 18:51:48 <eitan> how's that?
2689 2013-03-19 18:52:21 <CodeShark> serialization and basic networking, then connecting to a local bitcoind instance and using it as a link to the rest of the bitcoin network
2690 2013-03-19 18:52:36 <eitan> ahh
2691 2013-03-19 18:52:37 <CodeShark> then transaction signing, then block chain management
2692 2013-03-19 18:52:44 Gigitrix-Phone has joined
2693 2013-03-19 18:52:59 <CodeShark> finally verification
2694 2013-03-19 18:53:24 <CodeShark> each of these pieces can be built on the previous one
2695 2013-03-19 18:53:42 <eitan> verification can mean a lot of things
2696 2013-03-19 18:53:52 <eitan> lots of things have to be verified i mean
2697 2013-03-19 18:54:10 <CodeShark> verification in this context means making sure that the transaction and block messages are valid
2698 2013-03-19 18:54:27 <CodeShark> that the block headers satisfy proof-of-work and that the transactions all connect and satisfy the rules
2699 2013-03-19 18:54:38 <eitan> so script execution would be something to work on later?
2700 2013-03-19 18:54:44 <CodeShark> I think so, yes
2701 2013-03-19 18:54:58 <eitan> hmm
2702 2013-03-19 18:55:06 <CodeShark> well, unless that's what most interests you :)
2703 2013-03-19 18:55:13 ThomasV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2704 2013-03-19 18:55:23 <eitan> no, not really...maybe if the script language wasn't so ugly, lol
2705 2013-03-19 18:56:29 <CodeShark> point is script execution won't help you build an actual useful app unless you already have all the other pieces in place
2706 2013-03-19 18:56:47 <eitan> any ideas for a useful app then?
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2711 2013-03-19 18:57:59 <CodeShark> a wallet, network monitoring tools, statistical analysis
2712 2013-03-19 18:58:10 <eitan> my plan was: signing and verification > scripts > transactions > block chain and networking
2713 2013-03-19 18:58:39 <CodeShark> you could do the signing offline and then broadcast the transaction via RPC
2714 2013-03-19 18:59:03 <CodeShark> without having to write almost any serialization/networking code
2715 2013-03-19 18:59:05 <eitan> but logically in either case i now realize that serialization is the next step
2716 2013-03-19 18:59:26 <CodeShark> well, you'd still need serialization to create the transaction
2717 2013-03-19 18:59:26 <jgarzik> eitan: what language are you coding in?
2718 2013-03-19 18:59:45 <eitan> @jgarzik: haskell
2719 2013-03-19 18:59:57 Belkaar has joined
2720 2013-03-19 18:59:57 <ashod> im calling getblock with a hash , and it returns an object with an array of txids , but when i call gettransaction with one of these txids, i keep geting invalid or non-wallet transaction id
2721 2013-03-19 19:00:10 <jgarzik> eitan: then yes, serialization is one of the first basic steps
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2725 2013-03-19 19:01:12 <eitan> yup, just gotta write a Serializable typeclass and instances for all the data structures that need it
2726 2013-03-19 19:01:33 <CodeShark> ashod: if it's not a transaction involving your wallet, gettransaction won't fetch it. you could use getrawtransaction if you have txindex on
2727 2013-03-19 19:01:44 ThomasV_ has joined
2728 2013-03-19 19:01:52 <ashod> gettransaction ['275a54faa7b2b55fab109f76b9f1dd7bddba2d64380b6f71bdc7f9c562d8254a'] doesnt work ?? - any thoughts ?
2729 2013-03-19 19:02:01 flyingkiwiguy has quit (Quit: leaving)
2730 2013-03-19 19:02:02 ThomasV_ has quit (Client Quit)
2731 2013-03-19 19:02:22 <CodeShark> try starting with -reindex -txindex and then using getrawtransaction
2732 2013-03-19 19:02:27 space_cadet has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2736 2013-03-19 19:02:47 <gmaxwell> ashod: gettransaction can only be used on transactions in you wallet.
2737 2013-03-19 19:02:54 ThomasV has joined
2738 2013-03-19 19:03:14 <ashod> then how does blockexplorer.com get this informatoin ?
2739 2013-03-19 19:03:30 <ashod> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/275a54faa7b2b55fab109f76b9f1dd7bddba2d64380b6f71bdc7f9c562d8254a
2740 2013-03-19 19:03:59 <Scrat> ashod: you didn't have to link it, but the answer is that it doesn't use bitcoind
2741 2013-03-19 19:04:20 <ashod> @scat, could you elaborate please..
2742 2013-03-19 19:04:30 <Scrat> definitely not scat
2743 2013-03-19 19:04:42 <ashod> scrat..
2744 2013-03-19 19:05:12 <Scrat> it (like all blockexplorer type websites) keeps transactions in a database (typically SQL) where it's trivial to add indexes to a table
2745 2013-03-19 19:05:35 <gmaxwell> Scrat: well it does use bitcoind, but thats beside the point.
2746 2013-03-19 19:05:49 <gmaxwell> ashod: and people already answered you above about how you can get this information from bitcoind
2747 2013-03-19 19:05:55 Gigitrix-PhoneIs has joined
2748 2013-03-19 19:06:11 <Gigitrix-PhoneIs> Are there any sql dumps?
2749 2013-03-19 19:06:20 <gmaxwell> ashod: you have to run with the txindex enabled, and you use the getrawtransaction RPC (which has an optional decode argument) instead of gettransaction.
2750 2013-03-19 19:06:22 <ashod> @gmaxwell ok, so i didnt understand - .
2751 2013-03-19 19:06:34 random_cat is now known as random_troll
2752 2013-03-19 19:06:46 <ashod> ok so i call getrawtransaction '275a54faa7b2b55fab109f76b9f1dd7bddba2d64380b6f71bdc7f9c562d8254a' instead of gettransaction
2753 2013-03-19 19:06:49 space_cadet has joined
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2755 2013-03-19 19:06:50 space_cadet has joined
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2757 2013-03-19 19:07:11 random_troll is now known as random_cat
2758 2013-03-19 19:07:19 <ashod> i did that, and it returned a long hexstring
2759 2013-03-19 19:07:35 <gmaxwell> ashod: getrawtransaction 275a54faa7b2b55fab109f76b9f1dd7bddba2d64380b6f71bdc7f9c562d8254a 1
2760 2013-03-19 19:07:39 <gmaxwell> Note the 1
2761 2013-03-19 19:07:40 <sipa> note thw 1
2762 2013-03-19 19:07:46 ikbenwouter has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2763 2013-03-19 19:07:46 <gmaxwell> It takes an optional decode argument.
2764 2013-03-19 19:09:33 MJR__ has quit (Quit: MJR__)
2765 2013-03-19 19:09:40 Gigitrix-Phone has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2766 2013-03-19 19:10:01 <ashod> ok that gave me a decoded object ,, - is there an further steps so that i can get the same level of information as blockexplorer.com gives
2767 2013-03-19 19:10:24 <ashod> btw= adding the '1' ,, great - thanks
2768 2013-03-19 19:10:57 _pr has joined
2769 2013-03-19 19:13:01 <kasimirg> hi everyone, I'm wondering if someone can help me: a transaction I made seems to be "forgotten", as in no miners have included it yet.  I'm trying to manually rebroadcast, since it's been several hours, but bitcoind gives me an error -22 when I do the "sendrawtransaction $(getrawtransaction <ID>)" technique
2770 2013-03-19 19:13:05 sebicas has left ()
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2772 2013-03-19 19:13:19 Gigitrix-PhoneIs has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com ))
2773 2013-03-19 19:13:38 <kasimirg> any idea how I can try to get it working? Should I just (indefinitely) wait?
2774 2013-03-19 19:13:51 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2775 2013-03-19 19:14:01 <gmaxwell> IIRC -22 is that it can't decode?
2776 2013-03-19 19:14:27 <kasimirg> yes
2777 2013-03-19 19:14:36 <kasimirg> if I do decode manually, it works just fine
2778 2013-03-19 19:14:56 Belkaar has joined
2779 2013-03-19 19:15:29 jkal has joined
2780 2013-03-19 19:15:33 <kasimirg> as in, "./bitcoind decoderawtransaction $(./bitcoind getrawtransaction <txid>)" works just fine
2781 2013-03-19 19:15:34 nym has joined
2782 2013-03-19 19:15:51 viperhr1 is now known as viperhr
2783 2013-03-19 19:15:54 <kasimirg> I'm on 0.8.1
2784 2013-03-19 19:16:05 <gmaxwell> kasimirg: try just pasting the hex directly? may just be some whitespace screwing it up. (if so, thats a bug we should fix)
2785 2013-03-19 19:16:05 Descry has joined
2786 2013-03-19 19:16:20 <kasimirg> that doesn't work either (it's what I first tried)
2787 2013-03-19 19:16:29 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2788 2013-03-19 19:16:57 <gmaxwell> kasimirg: can you pastbin the transaction hex?
2789 2013-03-19 19:17:07 <sipa> but bitcoind gives me an error -22 when I do the "sendrawtransaction $(getrawtransaction <ID>)" technique
2790 2013-03-19 19:17:11 <sipa> as in, "./bitcoind decoderawtransaction $(./bitcoind getrawtransaction <txid>)" works just fine
2791 2013-03-19 19:17:18 <sipa> in what way do these two differ?
2792 2013-03-19 19:17:28 <gmaxwell> decoderawtransaction vs sendrawtransaction :)
2793 2013-03-19 19:17:33 <sipa> oh, right
2794 2013-03-19 19:17:35 Namworld has joined
2795 2013-03-19 19:18:06 kerum has joined
2796 2013-03-19 19:18:22 <kasimirg> http://pastebin.com/mDkVuDzs
2797 2013-03-19 19:18:31 <sipa> kasimirg: -22 is also thrown when the mempool rejects the transaction
2798 2013-03-19 19:18:43 <kasimirg> ah...
2799 2013-03-19 19:18:56 <kasimirg> any idea why that would be happening?
2800 2013-03-19 19:19:07 <sipa> the message is "TX rejected" then instead of TX decode failed
2801 2013-03-19 19:19:29 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i hear that you're working on improving the wallet code
2802 2013-03-19 19:19:29 <kasimirg> okay, that is what is happening then.  I am getting "TX rejected"
2803 2013-03-19 19:19:32 <gmaxwell> node here accepted it, bfae70ac5247e079c35b3edc19d60a4547baee6cb72946fe680aba4fd50ce88e
2804 2013-03-19 19:19:38 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i would be very interested in helping with that
2805 2013-03-19 19:20:16 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: ?
2806 2013-03-19 19:21:04 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the current wallet code is super slow
2807 2013-03-19 19:21:13 ilian000 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2808 2013-03-19 19:21:14 <phantomcircuit> it takes a long time to just load a large wallet
2809 2013-03-19 19:21:18 <phantomcircuit> much less actually do things
2810 2013-03-19 19:21:25 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i'm not working on that right now
2811 2013-03-19 19:21:30 <phantomcircuit> ah
2812 2013-03-19 19:21:34 <phantomcircuit> okie
2813 2013-03-19 19:21:39 akl has joined
2814 2013-03-19 19:21:43 <sipa> i have some plans for improvements, though
2815 2013-03-19 19:22:03 <sipa> but mostly storage/semantics, not so much performance
2816 2013-03-19 19:22:05 axhlf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2817 2013-03-19 19:22:45 <kasimirg> sipa: gmaxwell: thanks for your help, I didn't understand the sendrawtransaction checking :) I guess it checks for double spending locally, even if it's not in the blockchain, or something?
2818 2013-03-19 19:22:54 <kasimirg> when I used a fresh wallet, all works well :)
2819 2013-03-19 19:23:14 <sipa> kasimirg: yes, the mempool refuses double spends
2820 2013-03-19 19:23:22 <sipa> and it doesn't treat you differently then the rest of the network
2821 2013-03-19 19:24:21 TD_ has joined
2822 2013-03-19 19:24:35 <kasimirg> thanks for the help everyone :)
2823 2013-03-19 19:25:47 <Orbixx> What is the irc.cpp used for in the bitcoin source?
2824 2013-03-19 19:25:57 <jgarzik> IRC
2825 2013-03-19 19:26:09 eitan has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2826 2013-03-19 19:26:15 <gmaxwell> Orbixx: Not much. It's disabled by default except for testnet.
2827 2013-03-19 19:26:19 <sipa> Orbixx: obsolete bootstrapping methed
2828 2013-03-19 19:26:36 _dr has quit (Quit: leaving)
2829 2013-03-19 19:28:06 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2830 2013-03-19 19:28:23 <Orbixx> Interesting
2831 2013-03-19 19:28:36 <gmaxwell> Not very.
2832 2013-03-19 19:28:39 <Orbixx> Also, where should I be looking to localise a language for the QT client?
2833 2013-03-19 19:29:11 <Orbixx> I notice Japanese isn't in the list.
2834 2013-03-19 19:29:30 <sipa> Orbixx: https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/bitcoin/
2835 2013-03-19 19:30:35 <jgarzik> Today, we are all money transmitters… (no, really!) - https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=152
2836 2013-03-19 19:30:37 <Orbixx> Thanks.
2837 2013-03-19 19:30:46 <FredEE> ^ Good article
2838 2013-03-19 19:31:27 coolsa has joined
2839 2013-03-19 19:32:05 <BTC_Bear> Or just 'users'
2840 2013-03-19 19:32:13 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, as it stands there are no properly licensed bitcoin exchanges, so infact anybody who is currently a miner and sells their bitcoins for currency would be an MT
2841 2013-03-19 19:32:24 <phantomcircuit> :|
2842 2013-03-19 19:32:27 Descry has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2843 2013-03-19 19:33:12 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, iirc bitinstants justification for existence was the prepaid access rules btw
2844 2013-03-19 19:33:17 <phantomcircuit> should be interesting to see what they do
2845 2013-03-19 19:33:23 <BTC_Bear> The 'guidance' on Foreign Exchanges was oblique.
2846 2013-03-19 19:34:39 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, also i love how he posted that clearly as an attorney but didn't bother to add a disclaimed that he isn't giving specific advice
2847 2013-03-19 19:34:47 <phantomcircuit> oh murck
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2849 2013-03-19 19:37:38 [\\\] has quit ()
2850 2013-03-19 19:38:21 rbecker is now known as RBecker
2851 2013-03-19 19:40:23 KipIngram has left ("WeeChat 0.3.0")
2852 2013-03-19 19:41:52 <EvilPete> btcguild, ozcoin and slush still seem to be producing v1 blocks in the last 24 hours (btc = 4, oz = 1, slush = 2).  Is this the old merged mining stuff? am I misreading http://bitcoinchain.com/#start=1363676400&end=1383811140 ?
2853 2013-03-19 19:43:11 ovidiusoft has joined
2854 2013-03-19 19:44:17 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2855 2013-03-19 19:45:35 <slush> EvilPete: yes, one old MM backend is still producing v1 blocks :(
2856 2013-03-19 19:45:43 <slush> What percent of network is on v2 already?
2857 2013-03-19 19:45:57 <sipa> over 80%, afaik
2858 2013-03-19 19:46:00 stikonas has joined
2859 2013-03-19 19:46:03 <sipa> gavin recently sent a mail about that
2860 2013-03-19 19:46:08 <slush> sipa: damn
2861 2013-03-19 19:46:22 ilian000 has joined
2862 2013-03-19 19:46:33 <slush> sipa: is there any patch for 0.3.24?
2863 2013-03-19 19:46:36 <warren> why do v1 at all now?
2864 2013-03-19 19:46:46 <EvilPete> The btc folks commented that they were going to be working on the merge backend "tomorrow"
2865 2013-03-19 19:47:01 safra has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2866 2013-03-19 19:47:04 daybyter has joined
2867 2013-03-19 19:47:12 <ilian000> What is the best language with some good libs to program an application that resends the balance back?
2868 2013-03-19 19:47:26 <EvilPete> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=154521.msg1639376#msg1639376
2869 2013-03-19 19:47:57 safra has joined
2870 2013-03-19 19:47:59 kerum has left ("Winning")
2871 2013-03-19 19:48:00 <sipa> slush: talk to gavin
2872 2013-03-19 19:48:27 <gmaxwell> slush: patch for the may 15 thing?
2873 2013-03-19 19:48:40 <sipa> gmaxwell: no, bip34
2874 2013-03-19 19:49:10 <slush> gmaxwell: may15 is implemented already
2875 2013-03-19 19:49:22 <Ry4an> when bip34 happened the statement was that patches exist for all prior versions IIRC.  You shoudl be able to find it.
2876 2013-03-19 19:49:22 cruzzidawg has joined
2877 2013-03-19 19:50:12 panzer has joined
2878 2013-03-19 19:50:23 guidebook has joined
2879 2013-03-19 19:50:57 <jgarzik> The minimum required BIP 34 patch is trivially simple
2880 2013-03-19 19:51:10 <jgarzik> add height to coinbase CScript, bump block version
2881 2013-03-19 19:51:13 mappum has joined
2882 2013-03-19 19:51:48 <bVector> anyone worked with vanitygen? I want to set up a private pool for my gpu clusters
2883 2013-03-19 19:51:51 panzerfaust has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2884 2013-03-19 19:51:56 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2885 2013-03-19 19:52:26 cap2002 has joined
2886 2013-03-19 19:52:56 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
2887 2013-03-19 19:52:59 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: well, that will very likely cause you to mine on forks after the change.
2888 2013-03-19 19:53:26 <gmaxwell> so any node configured that way should be only exposed to the network via a modern node.
2889 2013-03-19 19:53:41 <gmaxwell> (otherwise when some dimbulb produces an invalid block you'll mine on it)
2890 2013-03-19 19:53:59 TD_ has joined
2891 2013-03-19 19:56:51 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: the change happens at 95%, and that includes relaying, so that is a risk, but unlikely
2892 2013-03-19 19:57:25 toffoo has joined
2893 2013-03-19 19:57:46 <sturles> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=154452.0 <- Any seasoned developer care to comment?
2894 2013-03-19 19:58:15 theorbtwo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2895 2013-03-19 19:58:28 <gmaxwell> sturles: oldest first has a number of degenerate behaviors that can produce insane fees or fail to produce transactions at all.
2896 2013-03-19 19:58:47 <sturles> How?
2897 2013-03-19 19:58:49 <gmaxwell> sturles: for example. I send you 500 dust inputs. Then later 10 btc. Now your 10 btc is unspendable.
2898 2013-03-19 19:59:15 jrmithdobbs has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2899 2013-03-19 19:59:24 <sturles> Difficult.  Those 500 dust inputs would have to be worth > 10 BTC.
2900 2013-03-19 19:59:35 <gmaxwell> why do you say that?
2901 2013-03-19 19:59:53 <gmaxwell> it would pick [500 dust, 10 btc] -> change.
2902 2013-03-19 20:00:10 <sturles> And then remove the dust it doesn't need.
2903 2013-03-19 20:00:14 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2904 2013-03-19 20:00:24 jrmithdobbs has joined
2905 2013-03-19 20:00:25 <sturles> If it can avoid the change or a fee.
2906 2013-03-19 20:00:49 <sturles> "If the resulting amount is larger, see if it can be reduced to exact by removing inputs."
2907 2013-03-19 20:01:36 <sturles> But I see my rul may have to be adapted a bit.
2908 2013-03-19 20:02:06 <gmaxwell> sturles: still— I send you 1000 * 0.001 then I send you 1 BTC. Now you spend 1 btc. Transaction fails.
2909 2013-03-19 20:02:24 bitcoin-dev236 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2910 2013-03-19 20:02:24 <gmaxwell> and okay sure "don't do that" but the devil is in the details.
2911 2013-03-19 20:02:31 <sturles> Yes, if that would require more than 1 BTC in fees.
2912 2013-03-19 20:02:48 <gmaxwell> sturles: no, it would fail because it would be too large a transaction to be relayed.
2913 2013-03-19 20:02:54 <sturles> Hmm, yes.
2914 2013-03-19 20:03:11 <gmaxwell> Or for example, you spend .1
2915 2013-03-19 20:03:27 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2916 2013-03-19 20:03:31 <gmaxwell> and then thats successful but you end up with 0.05 btc fees on 0.1 txn, which will confuse and enrage people.
2917 2013-03-19 20:03:51 <gmaxwell> (not that the current behavior doesn't also confuse and enrage people…)
2918 2013-03-19 20:04:19 kasimirg has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2919 2013-03-19 20:04:33 <sturles> I am confused and enraged by the costly low priority bitcoind crates now, and it just keeps collecting dust making just what you describe a real possibility in the future.
2920 2013-03-19 20:04:39 <sturles> And it isn't my fault.
2921 2013-03-19 20:04:51 <gmaxwell> sturles: I know. It currently sucks, I am absolutely not defending the current behavior.
2922 2013-03-19 20:04:57 <ilian000> What is the best language with some good libs to program an application that resends the balance back?
2923 2013-03-19 20:05:05 <gmaxwell> I am only saying your suggestion isn't clearly an improvement overall.
2924 2013-03-19 20:05:24 <gmaxwell> ilian000: "resends the balance back?"
2925 2013-03-19 20:05:36 theorbtwo has joined
2926 2013-03-19 20:05:58 <ilian000> gmaxwell: Yep, back from the destenation from source
2927 2013-03-19 20:06:04 <gmaxwell> sturles: Good coin selection can be expressed as an integer linear programming problem. There is then solver software that can find good selections.
2928 2013-03-19 20:06:14 <ilian000> gmaxwell: Just for educational purposes
2929 2013-03-19 20:06:34 <gmaxwell> sturles: but a challenge there is that actually defining good seems to be hard.
2930 2013-03-19 20:06:41 <ilian000> Like with an TxReceived event.
2931 2013-03-19 20:07:10 <sturles> I guess "create the highest priority tx possible" is NP-complete.
2932 2013-03-19 20:07:16 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
2933 2013-03-19 20:07:31 Anduck has joined
2934 2013-03-19 20:07:31 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
2935 2013-03-19 20:07:31 Anduck has joined
2936 2013-03-19 20:07:42 <gmaxwell> sturles: nah. it's NP-hard and there are efficient solitions to most cases.
2937 2013-03-19 20:07:46 wrabbit has joined
2938 2013-03-19 20:08:00 qwebirc5284 has joined
2939 2013-03-19 20:08:05 <gmaxwell> sturles: it's a combinatorial optimization problem, but its non-integer relaxation is convex.
2940 2013-03-19 20:08:36 <gmaxwell> sturles: but I think you actually don't want highest priority.. at least for free transactions you want the lowest priority subject to the constraint that its still free.
2941 2013-03-19 20:08:37 btcur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2942 2013-03-19 20:09:07 <gmaxwell> (that will make it automagically sweep dust, and avoids burning up your stored priority)
2943 2013-03-19 20:10:11 <sturles> Problem is to know if the priority is high enough to get included in the free part of a block.
2944 2013-03-19 20:10:29 <sturles> Preferably the next block.
2945 2013-03-19 20:10:39 Hunner has joined
2946 2013-03-19 20:10:49 <gmaxwell> sturles: well, if you have an estimate of that number you can solve for that just like any other threshold.
2947 2013-03-19 20:11:15 jrmithdobbs has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2948 2013-03-19 20:11:28 jrmithdobbs has joined
2949 2013-03-19 20:12:30 <gmaxwell> sturles: solvers for this sort of thing work by solving the system of linear equations over the reals to find a real valued solution (e.g. using fractional coins), then the solution gets rounded, and then the solver adds a new constraint such that any integer solution failing that constraint will be less good than the rounding so far, and it repeats. If it can't add such a constraint (e.g. all remaining solutions are coplanar) it adds a ...
2950 2013-03-19 20:12:36 <gmaxwell> ... 'random' constraint and splits into two problems which is solves seperately.. and this recurses.
2951 2013-03-19 20:13:11 sgornick has joined
2952 2013-03-19 20:13:36 patrickr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2953 2013-03-19 20:13:55 <sturles> As if the current code isn't complex enough..  But it would be a real improvement.  Collecting dust benefits noone.
2954 2013-03-19 20:14:16 <gmaxwell> sturles: but there are all kinds of things to consider— privacy for example,  all things equal I want selection which preserves privacy by not mixing unlinked addresses.
2955 2013-03-19 20:15:41 <gmaxwell> There are two obvious short term enhancements that would be easily added: make the solver save intermediate solutions and then pick alternative ones that produce more usefully sized change.. and (2) run a postprocessing pass to continue to add extra dust inputs to a solution subject to the additions not making the transaction too big.
2956 2013-03-19 20:15:42 <sturles> Privacy isn't a primary goal, but I see what you mean.
2957 2013-03-19 20:15:49 <gmaxwell> Privacy is a primary goal.
2958 2013-03-19 20:15:54 <gmaxwell> Anonymity is not, but they're related.
2959 2013-03-19 20:16:36 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
2960 2013-03-19 20:16:42 <gavinandresen> Before gmaxwell implements a really elegant constraint solver solution, I might take my big mallet and implement something ugly.  Like ignore dust completely, but sweep it when there is room.
2961 2013-03-19 20:17:34 <gmaxwell> I have code for the postprocessing pass I could make a pull request of, I was not terribly happy with it and not happy with how annoying testing this stuff is.
2962 2013-03-19 20:17:40 <gavinandresen> … where "when there is room" means "add until the transaction fee gets to be unreasonable"
2963 2013-03-19 20:18:09 <sturles> I think my 3 BTC example is something to look at.  Instead of generating a simple 1 to 2 tx, it created a 2 to 2, where one output was dust (to me).
2964 2013-03-19 20:18:20 <gavinandresen> mmm.  I think it should be ignored in the transaction list / getbalance / etc too
2965 2013-03-19 20:18:41 <warren> gavinandresen: my solution would involve a "Give up" button that sends private keys with dust to someone else to deal with.
2966 2013-03-19 20:18:51 <sturles> As long as it is unspendable?
2967 2013-03-19 20:19:41 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: The criteria I was using was "while there is already change, and adding one more input wouldn't make the transaction non-free, add the lowest value input from the set of inputs already tained on the transaction"
2968 2013-03-19 20:20:33 <gmaxwell> but free is now boring. I dunno how you reason about 'fee gets to be unreasonable
2969 2013-03-19 20:20:36 <gmaxwell> '
2970 2013-03-19 20:20:41 <Hunner> pwd
2971 2013-03-19 20:20:46 <Hunner> -.-
2972 2013-03-19 20:21:11 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
2973 2013-03-19 20:21:23 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I'd say an unreasonable fee is more than 0.5% of the amount you're sending.
2974 2013-03-19 20:21:35 <gmaxwell> hm. Interesting criteria.
2975 2013-03-19 20:21:37 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: … the send method knows how much you're sending, and how much is change....
2976 2013-03-19 20:22:09 <sturles> Could "unreasonable fee" be configurable?
2977 2013-03-19 20:22:16 <gavinandresen> no, impossible.
2978 2013-03-19 20:22:18 whizter has joined
2979 2013-03-19 20:22:19 <gavinandresen> wait…
2980 2013-03-19 20:22:23 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2981 2013-03-19 20:22:27 <gavinandresen> ok, yeah.  It could.
2982 2013-03-19 20:22:49 <gmaxwell> indeed. I suppose this leaks some information about the value of your transactions though. E.g. you have two outputs  x and y.  You can ask which one would have made the 'excess input' an unreasonable fee.
2983 2013-03-19 20:22:54 <gmaxwell> I don't know that I care.
2984 2013-03-19 20:23:01 Xeno-Genesis has joined
2985 2013-03-19 20:23:19 <gavinandresen> actually, we should have the notion of 'unreasonable fee' for other things, too-- like preventing foot-shooting using sendrawtransaction
2986 2013-03-19 20:23:31 <gmaxwell> esp if unreasonable fee is a configurable.
2987 2013-03-19 20:24:48 <gavinandresen> … I've been thinking an optional "unreasonable amount sent in 24 hours"  would also be a nifty feature to add, would help in some hot-wallet situations
2988 2013-03-19 20:24:56 berni23 is now known as bernard75
2989 2013-03-19 20:25:07 <gmaxwell> the other thing it could be used for is avoiding jagged coins.. round change down to be no more than 100x more jagged than the payment if doing so wouldn't make the fee unreasonable.
2990 2013-03-19 20:25:29 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: have you seen hal's tpm thing?
2991 2013-03-19 20:25:53 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: no, haven't had time to read/process it
2992 2013-03-19 20:26:16 <gmaxwell> basically he moves signing into a tpm sandbox. The sandbox imposes ratelimiting on sends.
2993 2013-03-19 20:26:16 flug has joined
2994 2013-03-19 20:26:22 <gavinandresen> nice!
2995 2013-03-19 20:26:37 <gavinandresen> how does the sandbox know what time it is?
2996 2013-03-19 20:26:43 <gmaxwell> TPM feature.
2997 2013-03-19 20:26:51 <gavinandresen> cool
2998 2013-03-19 20:26:53 Anduck has joined
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3000 2013-03-19 20:26:54 Anduck has joined
3001 2013-03-19 20:26:56 <gmaxwell> (uses the system clock— you could fake it, I guess but requires a reboot)
3002 2013-03-19 20:27:23 <Orbixx> With this string: Last received block was generated %1.
3003 2013-03-19 20:27:25 <gmaxwell> I suppose if you wanted to be super awesome you make the tpm a SPV node. :P though you're limited to about 1MB program code apparently.
3004 2013-03-19 20:27:33 <gavinandresen> require-password-on-startup, then run-hot is a good security model
3005 2013-03-19 20:27:39 <Orbixx> %1 is likely to be "$time ago", right?
3006 2013-03-19 20:27:40 safra has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3007 2013-03-19 20:27:50 tonikt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3008 2013-03-19 20:28:07 <gmaxwell> Orbixx: yes, I think "foo seconds" "bar hours" "baz eons" etc.
3009 2013-03-19 20:28:14 <gmaxwell> QT does some magic there, IIRC.
3010 2013-03-19 20:28:19 kantlivelong has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3011 2013-03-19 20:28:24 alezakos has left ("Leaving")
3012 2013-03-19 20:28:28 <Orbixx> I see
3013 2013-03-19 20:28:48 <Orbixx> Japanese word order is different to English, so it kind of matters what word goes where depending on what kind of word it is :P
3014 2013-03-19 20:29:10 <Orbixx> Hence my asking :)
3015 2013-03-19 20:29:17 <gmaxwell> Orbixx: is 'second' a homonym for spatula in japanese or something? :P
3016 2013-03-19 20:30:10 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I was thinking that the signing should be removed entirely from the coin selection process— effectively the whole coin selection should run, and produce a completed unsigned raw transaction.
3017 2013-03-19 20:30:12 <Orbixx> There's a homonym for 'tack'
3018 2013-03-19 20:30:19 n5 has joined
3019 2013-03-19 20:30:19 <Orbixx> Like thumbtack
3020 2013-03-19 20:30:30 <Orbixx> And it's not too far off sounding like 'illness' either
3021 2013-03-19 20:30:34 <Orbixx> or 'disease'
3022 2013-03-19 20:30:52 <Orbixx> or 'ballot' or 'ticket'
3023 2013-03-19 20:31:08 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: we can already tell without signing what size the signature will be, conservatively, and it'll only be off by a byte per signature or so.
3024 2013-03-19 20:31:15 B0g4r7_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3025 2013-03-19 20:31:54 <Orbixx> Why are there so many strings :(
3026 2013-03-19 20:32:02 <Orbixx> I really did not expect this many
3027 2013-03-19 20:32:18 <Orbixx> And the Japanese translation hasn't even been touched
3028 2013-03-19 20:32:21 <Orbixx> I'm the first one D:
3029 2013-03-19 20:32:34 rdymac has joined
3030 2013-03-19 20:32:40 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: that way you could do things like have createrawtransactionauto that does the expected thing. Or an advanced gui that makes txn authoring three-phase .... realtime editing for the selection, then sign, then send.
3031 2013-03-19 20:33:15 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: good idea
3032 2013-03-19 20:33:44 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: that's good prep work for multi-device wallets/transactions, too
3033 2013-03-19 20:34:00 cyphurnz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3034 2013-03-19 20:34:29 flug has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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3037 2013-03-19 20:35:13 <gmaxwell> right, one thing I want it for is a personal itch. I sign offline. Authoring transactions online is something of a pita as I have to do coin selection manually.  Multiple device just becomes .. author .. sign sign [sign...] ... send.
3038 2013-03-19 20:35:19 cruzzidawg has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3039 2013-03-19 20:36:32 tonikt has joined
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3042 2013-03-19 20:39:03 pizzacat has joined
3043 2013-03-19 20:39:29 <ilian000> What is the best language with some good libs to program an application that triggers an event when a transaction is received?
3044 2013-03-19 20:39:46 cc2 has joined
3045 2013-03-19 20:40:11 <gmaxwell> ilian000: intercal
3046 2013-03-19 20:40:17 <gmaxwell> :P
3047 2013-03-19 20:40:27 crob2 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3048 2013-03-19 20:40:32 <gmaxwell> ilian000: what you're asking about doing is not generally recommended, as it can cause coins to get lost.
3049 2013-03-19 20:40:34 <ilian000> hahahahahahah :)
3050 2013-03-19 20:41:46 <ilian000> gmaxwell:Should I analyse the blockchain and put all the transactions in a database?
3051 2013-03-19 20:41:55 <gmaxwell> If you just want to screw around, e.g. on testnet, it's not hard to use the rpc with— say— python to get whatever behavir you want. Though you'd need txindex enabled if you want to use the transaction history to try to guess where the coins you recieved were previously sent to. (TXN do not have a from, you can potentially use the previous "to", though they aren't the same thing)
3052 2013-03-19 20:42:39 <gmaxwell> Hm. Intercal really is a good fit for this, now that I think more about it.
3053 2013-03-19 20:42:40 mahican has joined
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3056 2013-03-19 20:43:24 kerum has joined
3057 2013-03-19 20:43:27 <gmaxwell> It has the Aspect Oriented feature (in parlance of the modern programming language fads) of "comes from"
3058 2013-03-19 20:43:43 <gmaxwell> (an alternative to goto)
3059 2013-03-19 20:44:04 <ilian000> gmaxwell: In which language should I analyse the blockchain for received transactions matching my address?
3060 2013-03-19 20:44:27 <UukGoblin> huh, tough one
3061 2013-03-19 20:44:38 <gavinandresen> What do y'all think of this for today's pre-0.8 alert message:  "See http://bitcoin.org/may15.html for an important message"
3062 2013-03-19 20:44:40 flyingkiwiguy has joined
3063 2013-03-19 20:44:52 patrickr has joined
3064 2013-03-19 20:45:13 <gavinandresen> Older versions of bitcoin were very limited in the length of the messages they'd show, so it has to be short and sweet....
3065 2013-03-19 20:45:28 <warren> Seems good.
3066 2013-03-19 20:46:04 <gmaxwell> I would have been hoping to have some translations before the alerts.
3067 2013-03-19 20:46:13 _pr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3068 2013-03-19 20:46:15 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: sounds fine.
3069 2013-03-19 20:46:50 <UukGoblin> hm
3070 2013-03-19 20:46:55 <warren> oh, translation is a good idea.
3071 2013-03-19 20:46:58 <UukGoblin> doesn't sound scary enough IMO
3072 2013-03-19 20:47:14 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: it's not especially scary. at least not at this point.
3073 2013-03-19 20:47:25 <warren> UukGoblin: when you need multiple alerts leading up to the deadline, it may backfire to make the first one alarming
3074 2013-03-19 20:47:26 <gavinandresen> yes, we can make them scarier as we approach the deadline.
3075 2013-03-19 20:47:30 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: perhaps the last alert we do can be more urgent.
3076 2013-03-19 20:47:43 yebyen has joined
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3078 2013-03-19 20:47:47 <UukGoblin> "Must upgrade before May15: http://bitcoin.org/may15.html"
3079 2013-03-19 20:47:50 <gavinandresen> I was going to make this one expire after 24 hours.
3080 2013-03-19 20:48:05 <UukGoblin> fair enough
3081 2013-03-19 20:48:10 <gavinandresen> UukGoblin: not true… you can DB_CONFIG, you don't have to upgrade
3082 2013-03-19 20:48:10 <yebyen> does this mean the block size limit is going away?
3083 2013-03-19 20:48:20 <UukGoblin> oh ok
3084 2013-03-19 20:48:29 <UukGoblin> I'm... not up to date on details ;-]
3085 2013-03-19 20:48:31 <helo> yebyen: only the unintentional one
3086 2013-03-19 20:48:32 <gmaxwell> yebyen: this is just related to the forking issue we had a week ago.
3087 2013-03-19 20:48:40 _pr has joined
3088 2013-03-19 20:48:44 <Ant0> hi gavinandresen one question, would it be possible in a future release to add a way to show the btc that each address in the wallet has?
3089 2013-03-19 20:48:44 <yebyen> i just read the release notes for 0.8.1 on sourceforge
3090 2013-03-19 20:48:55 <Ant0> instead of the total btc between all the priv keys...
3091 2013-03-19 20:49:13 <gmaxwell> Ant0: open the console, type listunspent
3092 2013-03-19 20:49:23 <gmaxwell> that shows you all your coins.
3093 2013-03-19 20:49:32 <yebyen> it seems to read as if the new (11 march 2013) fork is going to be enforced by the checkpoint
3094 2013-03-19 20:49:49 <Ant0> ah great, but I mean something in the gui that looks nice, for example a mouseover
3095 2013-03-19 20:49:55 <UukGoblin> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability#Current_bottlenecks <- this is very optimistic... "Once those limits are lifted"... hurr hurr
3096 2013-03-19 20:50:05 patrickr has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3097 2013-03-19 20:50:12 <yebyen> helo: you mean the limit of bdb 4.3 or whatever
3098 2013-03-19 20:50:25 <Ant0> also, is there any way to remove a priv key from the wallet.dat an easy way?
3099 2013-03-19 20:51:02 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: that page is mostly the sole authorship of Mike— he's removed contrasting views from it in the past.
3100 2013-03-19 20:51:03 <helo> yebyen: right... not "block size" per se, but "unintentional block limitation"
3101 2013-03-19 20:51:13 ashod has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3102 2013-03-19 20:51:39 <yebyen> helo: does that mean the 0.7.4 chain will be discarded or am I reading this wrong
3103 2013-03-19 20:51:49 <gmaxwell> yebyen: you're reading it wrong.
3104 2013-03-19 20:51:51 <yebyen> or just the behavior
3105 2013-03-19 20:51:55 <yebyen> ok
3106 2013-03-19 20:52:04 <gmaxwell> yebyen: Can you help me understand why you read it that way?
3107 2013-03-19 20:52:05 <helo> yebyen: nope, chain history won't change... only future blocks will be more liberally valid
3108 2013-03-19 20:52:31 <yebyen> gmaxwell: "A new compiled-in checkpoint at block number 225,430 -- the first block
3109 2013-03-19 20:52:34 <yebyen> of the 11 March 2013 chain fork."
3110 2013-03-19 20:52:49 <gmaxwell> yebyen: yes, thats the block in the current longest chain.
3111 2013-03-19 20:52:58 <yebyen> ok, that answers my question
3112 2013-03-19 20:53:08 <gmaxwell> But you're right I can see that its a bit ambigious.
3113 2013-03-19 20:53:15 <yebyen> that's the chain of 0.8 users, or 0.7?
3114 2013-03-19 20:53:21 <gmaxwell> It's only "obvious" because I know we wouldn't do something insane.
3115 2013-03-19 20:53:27 <gmaxwell> yebyen: it's the chain of _all_ users now.
3116 2013-03-19 20:53:32 Xeno-Genesis has joined
3117 2013-03-19 20:53:42 testnode9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3118 2013-03-19 20:53:44 <helo> the 0.8 chain that was 'reverted' is dead, and always will be
3119 2013-03-19 20:53:47 <gmaxwell> yebyen: it was the 0.7 only chain at first, until it became longer.
3120 2013-03-19 20:54:02 <warren> yebyen: when the 0.7 chain became longer, the 0.8 chain became shorter and lost.
3121 2013-03-19 20:54:03 ikbenwouter has joined
3122 2013-03-19 20:54:13 <yebyen> so there are no 0.8.0 rebels fighting to keep the double spend attacks going
3123 2013-03-19 20:54:41 <gmaxwell> yebyen: no. .. that was all resolved within a few hours of the fork being created.
3124 2013-03-19 20:56:09 <yebyen> i have been having fun with my testnet fork
3125 2013-03-19 20:57:10 <yebyen> would like to update it to 0.8.1 but I think the mechanism to set difficulty and target length have changed
3126 2013-03-19 20:57:39 <yebyen> since 0.7.2 anyway
3127 2013-03-19 20:58:40 Joost has joined
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3130 2013-03-19 21:00:01 <MKCoin> Ah, 0.8.1 is out? Great
3131 2013-03-19 21:00:30 tockitj has joined
3132 2013-03-19 21:00:36 BurtyBB has joined
3133 2013-03-19 21:01:17 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
3134 2013-03-19 21:01:26 <gmaxwell> yebyen: it hasn't changed.
3135 2013-03-19 21:01:47 i2pRelay has joined
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3140 2013-03-19 21:07:40 <jgarzik> Bitcoin and me (Hal Finney) - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155054.0
3141 2013-03-19 21:08:06 <jgarzik> a good halpost
3142 2013-03-19 21:09:23 qwebirc5284 is now known as dontkickme
3143 2013-03-19 21:09:36 root2_ is now known as root2
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3149 2013-03-19 21:14:31 ashod has joined
3150 2013-03-19 21:15:09 <ashod> why does some calls to getrawtransaction txid,1 fail with -5 return code,
3151 2013-03-19 21:15:09 <skinnkavaj> can anyone explain how satoschidice manages to survive with 0 confirmations?
3152 2013-03-19 21:16:02 bernard75 is now known as hotwalletfull
3153 2013-03-19 21:16:33 hotwalletfull is now known as mrx
3154 2013-03-19 21:17:02 mrx is now known as Guest96914
3155 2013-03-19 21:17:06 <warren> skinnkavaj: you really think gamblers are rational?
3156 2013-03-19 21:17:12 Guest96914 is now known as anonymouse23
3157 2013-03-19 21:17:29 <skinnkavaj> warren: but dont they get double spent all the time?
3158 2013-03-19 21:17:46 <ashod> for example
3159 2013-03-19 21:17:54 anonymouse23 is now known as bernard75
3160 2013-03-19 21:17:55 <ashod> getrawtransaction ['4a5e1e4baab89f3a32518a88c31bc87f618f76673e2cc77ab2127b7afdeda33b',1]  returns -5
3161 2013-03-19 21:18:05 <ashod> but getrawtransaction ['0e3e2357e806b6cdb1f70b54c3a3a17b6714ee1f0e68bebb44a74b1efd512098',1] works
3162 2013-03-19 21:19:03 <warren> skinnkavaj: apparently it's happened, not sure why not often
3163 2013-03-19 21:21:04 MC-Droid has joined
3164 2013-03-19 21:21:53 <bVector> I build bitcoind from source, where does it look for the bootstrap.dat and/or store the blockchain by default?
3165 2013-03-19 21:21:57 <bVector> ~/.bitcoin ?
3166 2013-03-19 21:22:09 Digigami has left ()
3167 2013-03-19 21:22:26 <lianj> bVector: on linux, yes
3168 2013-03-19 21:22:38 <bVector> ty
3169 2013-03-19 21:22:40 <ashod> anyone ? - why getrawtransaction fails with -5, sometimes,, - does it mean the transaction is locked or somehting ?
3170 2013-03-19 21:23:13 <lianj> ashod: is your node a full node?
3171 2013-03-19 21:23:24 <lianj> or utxo
3172 2013-03-19 21:23:28 SchmalzTech has quit ()
3173 2013-03-19 21:23:41 <ashod> what does full node mean
3174 2013-03-19 21:24:01 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
3175 2013-03-19 21:24:45 <ashod> lianj ?
3176 2013-03-19 21:24:50 <lianj> youre running 0.8 without changing anything at the config?
3177 2013-03-19 21:24:51 <helo> if you're using bitcoind or bitcoin-qt, then you're definitely a full node
3178 2013-03-19 21:25:06 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
3179 2013-03-19 21:25:24 <helo> eh? 0.8 has a uxto mode?
3180 2013-03-19 21:25:30 <lianj> helo: then my term full node was a bit wrong. question is about if he has an index of all txs or just his own
3181 2013-03-19 21:25:46 <ashod> yyes bitcoind 0.8 on windows,
3182 2013-03-19 21:25:47 <helo> ahhh right
3183 2013-03-19 21:25:54 TD_ has joined
3184 2013-03-19 21:26:11 <lianj> ashod: is 0e3e2357e806b6cdb1f70b54c3a3a17b6714ee1f0e68bebb44a74b1efd512098 one of yours and 4a5e1e4baab89f3a32518a88c31bc87f618f76673e2cc77ab2127b7afdeda33b not then?
3185 2013-03-19 21:26:21 Hashdog has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3186 2013-03-19 21:26:46 owowo has joined
3187 2013-03-19 21:27:32 <ashod> neither, im crawling all the blocks from index 0 to blockcount, getting each blocks hash,, then getting the actual block,, then getting all the txids in the block,, and calling getrawtransaction for each txid
3188 2013-03-19 21:27:55 <ashod> some calls to getrawtransaction work and return an object, the others return -5
3189 2013-03-19 21:29:38 theendorso has joined
3190 2013-03-19 21:29:48 <ashod> try yourself,,
3191 2013-03-19 21:29:54 <ashod> does getrawtransaction ['4a5e1e4baab89f3a32518a88c31bc87f618f76673e2cc77ab2127b7afdeda33b',1] work ?
3192 2013-03-19 21:31:36 <gmaxwell> ashod: you need to run with txindex enabled.
3193 2013-03-19 21:31:55 owowo is now known as soulopodowowo
3194 2013-03-19 21:32:04 <ashod> please tell me , what txindex is
3195 2013-03-19 21:32:09 soulopodowowo is now known as suolopodowowo
3196 2013-03-19 21:32:24 <gmaxwell> ashod: a setting for bitcoind. See the release notes.
3197 2013-03-19 21:32:40 <gavinandresen> FYI:  "See http://bitcoin.org/may15.html for an important message"   alert broadcast.
3198 2013-03-19 21:33:02 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3199 2013-03-19 21:33:05 <gavinandresen> … 0.7.2 nodes and earlier should see it.
3200 2013-03-19 21:33:33 <gmaxwell> 2013-03-19 20:46:50 accepted alert 1033, AppliesToMe()=0
3201 2013-03-19 21:33:45 <lianj> 70003 doesn't here
3202 2013-03-19 21:33:48 <ashod> i cant find info about the txindex enabled setting
3203 2013-03-19 21:34:05 theendorso has quit (Client Quit)
3204 2013-03-19 21:34:27 <gavinandresen> ashod: see https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.1/
3205 2013-03-19 21:34:32 <gavinandresen> ashod: the section "Incompatible changes"
3206 2013-03-19 21:34:44 Lexx__ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3207 2013-03-19 21:34:45 <gavinandresen> (in the readme there)
3208 2013-03-19 21:35:19 Gnaf has joined
3209 2013-03-19 21:35:21 <ashod> is this for 0.8.0 or 0.8.1
3210 2013-03-19 21:35:33 <gavinandresen> ahsod: both
3211 2013-03-19 21:36:09 <warren> so 0.8.0 is technically safe after May 15th
3212 2013-03-19 21:36:15 maximi891 has joined
3213 2013-03-19 21:36:20 <ashod> ok thanks - im doing now
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3223 2013-03-19 21:38:28 <lianj> oh, 0e3e2357e806b6cdb1f70b54c3a3a17b6714ee1f0e68bebb44a74b1efd512098 is the tx from block 0
3224 2013-03-19 21:39:00 <gmaxwell> lianj: yes, its unspendable.
3225 2013-03-19 21:39:15 suolopodowowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
3226 2013-03-19 21:39:25 <lianj> but getrawtransaction should still return it?
3227 2013-03-19 21:42:24 gabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3228 2013-03-19 21:43:10 thegonzo has quit ()
3229 2013-03-19 21:43:11 tonikt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3230 2013-03-19 21:43:28 <gmaxwell> lianj: No, because its not in the index. 0.7.x didn't return it either, which is why its unspendable.
3231 2013-03-19 21:44:13 <helo> neat trivia
3232 2013-03-19 21:44:37 <ashod> how can i determine the number of blocks remaining to download, - getblockcount or getinfo only show number of blocks downloaded
3233 2013-03-19 21:44:55 <gmaxwell> s/trivial/freeking annoying details which an implementer must get right/
3234 2013-03-19 21:44:55 <flyingkiwiguy> gavinandresen: alert relay picked up your alert at 20:48 UTC
3235 2013-03-19 21:45:16 <gmaxwell> ashod: getpeerinfo and guess from their starting heights
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3239 2013-03-19 21:46:13 <BlueMatt> if the 0.8.1 limits will not be merged onto master, should I just restart pull-tester with the non-0.8.1 tester and let it be?
3240 2013-03-19 21:46:30 <BlueMatt> oh, it was merged...nevermind
3241 2013-03-19 21:46:31 <lianj> ashod: also, see what gmaxwell said about 0e3e2.. you will always get a -5 on it..
3242 2013-03-19 21:46:34 <ashod> excellent - thnks !
3243 2013-03-19 21:46:44 copumpkin has joined
3244 2013-03-19 21:46:46 <gavinandresen> flyingkiwiguy: great!
3245 2013-03-19 21:46:49 <ashod> 0e3e2 ?
3246 2013-03-19 21:46:59 <lianj> i give up
3247 2013-03-19 21:48:47 <ashod> how do you know its not in the index ?
3248 2013-03-19 21:48:50 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: should making that spendable be on the hardfork wishlist do you think?
3249 2013-03-19 21:49:29 dontkickme has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3250 2013-03-19 21:49:42 <ashod> bit confused,, what spendable means ?
3251 2013-03-19 21:49:45 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
3252 2013-03-19 21:49:48 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: at least it's an easily enumerated rule now that we've enumerated it.
3253 2013-03-19 21:49:56 <gmaxwell> ashod: that coin cannot be spent.
3254 2013-03-19 21:50:03 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yeah, but it is a wart....
3255 2013-03-19 21:50:21 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: hardly, its one specific tx...
3256 2013-03-19 21:50:35 wizkid057 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3257 2013-03-19 21:50:35 <BlueMatt> plus (eventually) Ill get around to rewriting block-tester to use a new genesis and try to spend that tx
3258 2013-03-19 21:50:36 <lianj> gavinandresen: you got the key for that? :p
3259 2013-03-19 21:50:37 <gavinandresen> warts can be small
3260 2013-03-19 21:50:58 <BlueMatt> we have bigger warts to worry about ;)
3261 2013-03-19 21:51:04 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Its true, on the other hand — there is perhaps some elegance that the only known satoshi owned block cannot be spent. It's also an easy test to see if an implementor is paying attention— a brown M&M. Esp since it's hopefully harmless to get it wrong (it only allows satoshi induced forks)
3262 2013-03-19 21:51:26 <gavinandresen> mmm.  Brown M&M is a good reason to keep it.
3263 2013-03-19 21:52:05 egecko has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
3264 2013-03-19 21:52:12 <gmaxwell> vs, say— a block limit is a bad brown M&M— too easily triggered maliciously.
3265 2013-03-19 21:52:20 cyphurnz has joined
3266 2013-03-19 21:52:46 * BlueMatt prefers all m&ms be in test-cases such as block-tester that other implementations run over just making them brown to see if people are paying attention
3267 2013-03-19 21:52:51 john5223 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3268 2013-03-19 21:53:10 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
3269 2013-03-19 21:53:22 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: but we can't put that one in a testcase. :P
3270 2013-03-19 21:53:39 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: if we get a new genesis block for block-tester I can
3271 2013-03-19 21:53:52 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: which is another reason that it's a good audit point. One problem is that lackluster implementors will _only_ be as good as the tests, which is only fine if the tests are perfect.
3272 2013-03-19 21:54:04 wizkid057 has joined
3273 2013-03-19 21:54:34 <BlueMatt> so lets make perfect tests :)
3274 2013-03-19 21:54:34 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: hm. Maybe. I would prefer the blocktester require no or only minimal changes.
3275 2013-03-19 21:54:45 <BlueMatt> no, I agree its an interesting audit point, but...I dunno
3276 2013-03-19 21:55:15 nsillik has joined
3277 2013-03-19 21:55:19 <BlueMatt> yes, and I was originally going to mine the chain, but as it turns out, letting it be nondeterministic has caught errors in the past
3278 2013-03-19 21:55:28 <BlueMatt> so Im not sure if I will eventually or not
3279 2013-03-19 21:55:32 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea, I've noticed. :-/
3280 2013-03-19 21:57:40 [\\\] has joined
3281 2013-03-19 21:57:43 ilian000 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3282 2013-03-19 21:57:50 nsillik_ has joined
3283 2013-03-19 21:58:36 kapiteined has joined
3284 2013-03-19 21:58:38 ShapeShifter499 has joined
3285 2013-03-19 21:58:39 agromanus has joined
3286 2013-03-19 21:58:40 <ShapeShifter499> hi
3287 2013-03-19 21:58:45 nsillik_ has quit (Client Quit)
3288 2013-03-19 21:58:52 <ShapeShifter499> I have ubuntu, what miner should I use?
3289 2013-03-19 21:59:13 <gmaxwell> ShapeShifter499: what kind of hardware are you mining with?
3290 2013-03-19 21:59:19 nsillik has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3291 2013-03-19 22:00:54 hneio has joined
3292 2013-03-19 22:01:17 <agromanus> hi there. i sent transaction 98fedb301409577709d50fc2f316c00d6c59fa2199fb40c3d8c4ab65d2c8716c 109 minutes ago. still not a single confirmation. any idea or advice what to do?
3293 2013-03-19 22:01:31 hneio is now known as nimdAHK
3294 2013-03-19 22:01:55 <topi`> 15 may is only 2 months away; I bet many casual bitcoin users will be surprised
3295 2013-03-19 22:02:05 <gavinandresen> agromanus: I've had good luck getting transactions to confirm by standing on one leg, rubbing my stomach, and chanting "go… go… go…"
3296 2013-03-19 22:02:09 <topi`> those who open the app every 6 months or so
3297 2013-03-19 22:02:25 <ShapeShifter499> gmaxwell, Acer Aspire 7540-1284 running Ubuntu 12.10 64 bit, 4 GB Ram, 320 GB Internal storage, 500 GB External storage, AMD Athlon II X2 M300 2.0 GHz 1MB L2 Cache Dual-core, ATI Radeon HD 4200 using Xorg Edgers drivers
3298 2013-03-19 22:02:45 <agromanus> gavinandresen: i tried that already. all i got was a boner...
3299 2013-03-19 22:03:00 <gavinandresen> agromanus: STOMACH....
3300 2013-03-19 22:03:05 <topi`> agromanus: did you put any txfees in? if not, then wait until pools like eligius have a chance to create a block
3301 2013-03-19 22:03:17 <ShapeShifter499> don't even talk about flgrx (the official AMD/ATI closed source drivers) never could get that driver to work.
3302 2013-03-19 22:03:20 <gmaxwell> ShapeShifter499: that hardware won't profitably mine— if you want you could start something like BFGminer but it would only be useful for playing around with it.
3303 2013-03-19 22:03:24 <gavinandresen> agromanus: according to http://blockchain.info/tx-index/61489716/98fedb301409577709d50fc2f316c00d6c59fa2199fb40c3d8c4ab65d2c8716c  it got confirmed
3304 2013-03-19 22:03:33 <agromanus> i was not prompted to put tx fees.
3305 2013-03-19 22:03:40 eitan has joined
3306 2013-03-19 22:03:58 <ShapeShifter499> gmaxwell, D:
3307 2013-03-19 22:04:00 <gavinandresen> … confirmed two minutes ago.  See!  told you the one-leg-stomach-rubbing would work!
3308 2013-03-19 22:04:10 <RoboTeddy> do miners pay attention to transaction fees yet? i.e., if you put a higher transaction fee, is it more likely to be confirmed quickly?
3309 2013-03-19 22:04:15 <ShapeShifter499> gmaxwell, what about a mining pool?
3310 2013-03-19 22:04:20 <agromanus> cheers, gavinandresen, i saw it just now. good luck with ur stomach… :)
3311 2013-03-19 22:04:22 <gmaxwell> "tantric transacting"
3312 2013-03-19 22:04:34 * warren creates wiki page.
3313 2013-03-19 22:04:35 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
3314 2013-03-19 22:04:35 <eitan> hi, is there some reference for serializing different data structures in the protocol, so I can test my encoding and decoding functions?
3315 2013-03-19 22:04:46 <topi`> RoboTeddy: depends on the mining operator. afaik Eligius does not prioritize nor require txfees
3316 2013-03-19 22:04:47 nimdAHK_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3317 2013-03-19 22:05:39 technotarian is now known as cypher
3318 2013-03-19 22:05:43 <gmaxwell> ShapeShifter499: you can spend dollars on power per month to get than that in bitcoin... solo mining at least would give you an very low chance at 25 BTC. :P both cases are only likely to be worth your time if you find dorking with technology fun.
3319 2013-03-19 22:06:34 <sipa> eitan: search the wiki for protocol specification
3320 2013-03-19 22:06:47 <gmaxwell> RoboTeddy: practically all miners priortized by fees per data-kb, plus a smaller number of charity transactions accepted without fee based on the coin days destroyed.
3321 2013-03-19 22:06:48 <warren> ShapeShifter499: use a mining calculator to determine your likely payout compared to your electricity cost, then decide to spend that money instead on beer, you'll get more utility out of it.
3322 2013-03-19 22:07:11 <RoboTeddy> gmaxwell: thank you
3323 2013-03-19 22:07:19 <gmaxwell> warren: I'm pretty sure I get more utility out of screwing around with technology than beer.
3324 2013-03-19 22:07:35 <eitan> +sipa: cool, it's open in another tab...it's a little hard to follow but i'll work on it :-)
3325 2013-03-19 22:07:39 * warren bought zero beer in the last year.
3326 2013-03-19 22:08:18 <warreng> warren: and, so we meet.
3327 2013-03-19 22:09:42 <warreng> i've been eyeing your nick for years.....
3328 2013-03-19 22:09:57 <warren> warren: 100BTC and its yours
3329 2013-03-19 22:10:04 <warren> oops
3330 2013-03-19 22:10:08 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
3331 2013-03-19 22:10:13 <warren> I guess that offer wasn't valid.
3332 2013-03-19 22:10:47 <ShapeShifter499> warren, not sure how to use a mining calculator,
3333 2013-03-19 22:11:02 <ShapeShifter499> where do I get the hash rate?
3334 2013-03-19 22:11:04 <warreng> i'm interested at 10BTC...  :-D
3335 2013-03-19 22:11:19 <gmaxwell> ShapeShifter499: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
3336 2013-03-19 22:11:25 perkrifj has joined
3337 2013-03-19 22:11:35 * warren should have squatted more nick's.
3338 2013-03-19 22:11:50 <warreng> i offered $200 for warren@gmail.com years ago... no response
3339 2013-03-19 22:12:00 <eitan> the protocol specification page doesn't have actual examples (for variable length integers) to check against :-(
3340 2013-03-19 22:12:36 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
3341 2013-03-19 22:12:55 one_zero has joined
3342 2013-03-19 22:13:32 <kapiteined> hi all, any toughts on what would happen if we had a net split? say internet between the USA and the rest of the world is not functioning.
3343 2013-03-19 22:13:44 <kapiteined> would that create a fork?
3344 2013-03-19 22:13:58 <BlueMatt> no, we'll have satellites broadcasting the chain by then
3345 2013-03-19 22:14:25 Diapolo has joined
3346 2013-03-19 22:14:34 <kapiteined> but just as an example, no network between the USA and the rest, what would happen?
3347 2013-03-19 22:14:42 <flyingkiwiguy> warreng: bit of a spam target
3348 2013-03-19 22:14:43 * gavinandresen wonders how many cables there are between the US and the rest of the world...
3349 2013-03-19 22:15:02 <warren> kapiteined: you don't need much bandwidth to link the partitions in such a way that would smash the shortern chain
3350 2013-03-19 22:15:27 <flyingkiwiguy> gavinandresen: http://www.submarinecablemap.com/
3351 2013-03-19 22:15:28 <BlueMatt> seriously though, there would be some crazy person with a radio link across continents getting the blocks between the split
3352 2013-03-19 22:15:36 <BlueMatt> or direct dial-up link or something
3353 2013-03-19 22:15:59 <BlueMatt> dial-up over satellite phone
3354 2013-03-19 22:16:03 <gavinandresen> flyingkiwiguy: thanks!  I love maps
3355 2013-03-19 22:16:21 <warren> BlueMatt: I don't know, we seem to have a distinct lack of crazy people here...
3356 2013-03-19 22:16:36 <gavinandresen> we'd bounce lasers off the mooon....
3357 2013-03-19 22:16:37 <BlueMatt> heh
3358 2013-03-19 22:16:40 aarontrostle has joined
3359 2013-03-19 22:17:02 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: no, those come directly back to you thanks to some fancy lens work (otherwise scatter to who-knows where)
3360 2013-03-19 22:17:10 <BlueMatt> :)
3361 2013-03-19 22:17:12 <gavinandresen> oh, right.
3362 2013-03-19 22:17:14 <kapiteined> warren: ok, so there would be a fork, but as soon as a data conection is established, it would converge again?
3363 2013-03-19 22:17:29 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: google EME... though sadly the data rates achieved are not quite good enough. :P
3364 2013-03-19 22:17:31 egecko has joined
3365 2013-03-19 22:17:35 <ShapeShifter499> gmaxwell, my GPU and CPU isn't even listed lol
3366 2013-03-19 22:17:41 <warren> kapiteined: yes, and even during the split tiny links can keep it from diverging too far
3367 2013-03-19 22:17:47 n5 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3368 2013-03-19 22:18:02 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: radio, yes, laser...not so much
3369 2013-03-19 22:18:03 <flyingkiwiguy> ShapeShifter499: forget CPU, and likely forget any non-ATI high-end card
3370 2013-03-19 22:18:07 n5 has joined
3371 2013-03-19 22:18:18 <gavinandresen> We could fedex copies of the chain overnight...
3372 2013-03-19 22:18:23 <warren> ShapeShifter499: you generally need Radeon HD 5000+ to get a meaningful amount of hashing per watt, and that isn't power cost profitable
3373 2013-03-19 22:18:28 rdymac has joined
3374 2013-03-19 22:18:50 <kapiteined> hehe, i bet fedex would be out of order in such an event ;-)
3375 2013-03-19 22:18:58 <ShapeShifter499> warren, this is my laptop btw, I thought these tended to be power friendly
3376 2013-03-19 22:19:04 <BlueMatt> so would everything, btw
3377 2013-03-19 22:19:05 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I wonder how fast you'd get arrested heading out to the international terminal at the airport and asking people to carry a DVD to europe. :P
3378 2013-03-19 22:19:14 <kapiteined> for sure!
3379 2013-03-19 22:19:29 <flyingkiwiguy> ShapeShifter499: you might earn 0.1BTC/year
3380 2013-03-19 22:19:39 mahican has left ()
3381 2013-03-19 22:19:49 <warren> flyingkiwiguy: assuming ASIC buyers decide to not mine.
3382 2013-03-19 22:19:58 <gavinandresen> … by then some rich early adopter will be living in space, we can just ask them to broadcast it....
3383 2013-03-19 22:19:58 <ShapeShifter499> urgh
3384 2013-03-19 22:20:01 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: faster than the guy walking through the scanners with a bomb strapped to his balls...
3385 2013-03-19 22:20:02 <BlueMatt> :(
3386 2013-03-19 22:20:39 <petertodd> I'm waiting for FinCEN to rule on that one.
3387 2013-03-19 22:21:14 <warren> Transmitting the ledger?
3388 2013-03-19 22:21:32 aarontrostle is now known as snarl_
3389 2013-03-19 22:21:43 <gmaxwell> In any case, sat bandwidth esp on old c-band birds is cheap. You could be broadcasting the blockchain for only about $100 a month... but no one cares to set it up.
3390 2013-03-19 22:21:51 <petertodd> warren: Yes! Actually, we should stenographically hide it in the low-order bits of international money wires...
3391 2013-03-19 22:22:01 <gmaxwell> (this is one of the reasons that security is touchy, lots of incentive to not setup protections until its too late)
3392 2013-03-19 22:22:13 <gavinandresen> I think we should start an "I am Spartacus" movement, and if we're in a state that has lax money transmitter regulations all register as Federal money transmitters.
3393 2013-03-19 22:22:13 <ashod> anyone here from australia ?
3394 2013-03-19 22:22:19 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you'd go broke making enough wires to send a header. :P
3395 2013-03-19 22:22:43 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yes!
3396 2013-03-19 22:22:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Don't worry, I'm proposing reducing the maximum blocksize to 11 transactions.
3397 2013-03-19 22:22:56 <gavinandresen> … hard part if figuring out the state regulations...
3398 2013-03-19 22:22:59 <ashod> you're from austrlia gavidandersen ?
3399 2013-03-19 22:23:08 <gavinandresen> ashod: born in Melbourne
3400 2013-03-19 22:23:20 snarl_ has left ()
3401 2013-03-19 22:23:24 <ashod> me too, but live in sydney now -
3402 2013-03-19 22:23:28 <warren> gmaxwell: If only we had a charitable organization to centralize the cost of such individually uneconomical choices
3403 2013-03-19 22:23:46 <EvilPete> <- from Perth, in sf.ca.us
3404 2013-03-19 22:23:52 <ashod> are you a developer gavin
3405 2013-03-19 22:23:59 <gavinandresen> ashod: We're planning on living in Far North Queensland again for six months starting in July
3406 2013-03-19 22:24:02 <flyingkiwiguy> smartphone in space: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STRaND-1
3407 2013-03-19 22:24:26 <gmaxwell> warren: it's not just that its individually uneconomical. It's of uncertain value.
3408 2013-03-19 22:24:35 jonls has joined
3409 2013-03-19 22:24:50 <ashod> @gavin, ok - i see now , your very much involved in bitcoin
3410 2013-03-19 22:24:51 <warren> Oh.  US being cut off from the world, you have bigger things to worry about.
3411 2013-03-19 22:25:29 <gmaxwell> warren: there have been moderate term wide scale internet outages previously.. though they tend to happen off in funny corners of the network.
3412 2013-03-19 22:25:35 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Ah cool. Half my family is from Australia too; mom grew up in melbourne.
3413 2013-03-19 22:25:39 johnsoft has joined
3414 2013-03-19 22:25:48 <gavinandresen> petertodd: "mum"
3415 2013-03-19 22:25:57 <ashod> @gavin, are you a programmer, as in your day job
3416 2013-03-19 22:26:15 <gavinandresen> ashod: being lead developer of the bitcoin project is my day job
3417 2013-03-19 22:26:32 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Dad's Canadian. :P
3418 2013-03-19 22:26:38 n5 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3419 2013-03-19 22:26:39 RoboTeddy has joined
3420 2013-03-19 22:26:40 <ashod> im at fishburners -
3421 2013-03-19 22:26:52 <gavinandresen> petertodd: "Canadian, eh?"
3422 2013-03-19 22:27:10 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Sorry!
3423 2013-03-19 22:27:28 <eitan> cEHnEHdEH
3424 2013-03-19 22:27:47 johnsoft1 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3425 2013-03-19 22:28:08 <gavinandresen> I'm still distracted by : http://www.submarinecablemap.com/  …. poor Antartica, no cable for you...
3426 2013-03-19 22:28:48 <eitan> poor polar bears
3427 2013-03-19 22:29:08 <gavinandresen> polar bears are OK, Norwegians made TWO cables for them
3428 2013-03-19 22:29:22 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: the station there has internet access, I guess via sat.
3429 2013-03-19 22:29:36 <sturles> One of the cables are paid by NASA, in fact.
3430 2013-03-19 22:29:45 <sturles> Large satellite station.
3431 2013-03-19 22:29:46 n5 has joined
3432 2013-03-19 22:30:52 <sturles> Perfect location for downloading data from satellites in polar orbit.
3433 2013-03-19 22:30:59 * gavinandresen wonders that the Norwegians are doing in Svalbard that they need two cables there....
3434 2013-03-19 22:31:02 <petertodd> sturles: Ah, yeah Svalbard
3435 2013-03-19 22:31:15 <petertodd> gavinandresen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Undersea_Cable_System
3436 2013-03-19 22:31:16 <gavinandresen> very cold… maybe watching lots of … ummm, movies… during the winter
3437 2013-03-19 22:31:42 oleganza has joined
3438 2013-03-19 22:31:50 <petertodd> Way up north in Canada there are a few similar sat uplink projects going on.
3439 2013-03-19 22:32:01 <gavinandresen> Svalbard population: 2,394
3440 2013-03-19 22:32:03 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: what else is there to do in svalbard in the winter?
3441 2013-03-19 22:32:07 <gavinandresen> Norway has way too much money.
3442 2013-03-19 22:32:37 <sturles> gavinandresen: Or NASA..
3443 2013-03-19 22:33:04 <sturles> "Financing was secured through a deal with the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA)."
3444 2013-03-19 22:33:11 <flyingkiwiguy> seems a 9600 baud CubeSat costs around $30K, including Google Nexus One
3445 2013-03-19 22:33:12 <gavinandresen> sounds fishy to me
3446 2013-03-19 22:33:31 <gmaxwell> flyingkiwiguy: lifetime of cubesats and tx power are not good.
3447 2013-03-19 22:33:42 <gmaxwell> flyingkiwiguy: better to just rent bandwidth on existing commercial sats.
3448 2013-03-19 22:34:18 <flyingkiwiguy> offsite backup not requiring major infrastructure to support back home
3449 2013-03-19 22:34:30 <sturles> The satellite stations on Svalbard and Dronning Maud land (Antarctica) are the only two sattellite stations capable of downloading data from every pass of a satellite in polar orbit.
3450 2013-03-19 22:34:55 WKNiGHT has left ("Leaving")
3451 2013-03-19 22:34:57 <sturles> The one in Antarctica is mostly used as a backup.
3452 2013-03-19 22:35:21 <warren> I'm shocked that Antarctica has no fiber.
3453 2013-03-19 22:35:23 <Scrat> how do I get polar bear bandwidth
3454 2013-03-19 22:35:24 <petertodd> sturles: Interesting, is the Antarctic one available for commercial operators? Because that would be a unique example of a commercial anything in antarctica.
3455 2013-03-19 22:35:41 <sturles> No, don't think so.
3456 2013-03-19 22:36:05 snarl__ has joined
3457 2013-03-19 22:36:05 <flyingkiwiguy> Scrat: with a seal-ed cable
3458 2013-03-19 22:36:09 <petertodd> warren: Not many places to land it, and they are serious about environmental protection. There is a project to lay a fiber across the continent, but it's controversial.
3459 2013-03-19 22:36:12 <sturles> Or... Why not?
3460 2013-03-19 22:36:38 <sturles> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_Satellite_Station
3461 2013-03-19 22:36:57 Joost has quit (Quit: Joost)
3462 2013-03-19 22:37:31 <flyingkiwiguy> warren: likely tricky running cable thru an ice pack
3463 2013-03-19 22:37:35 <petertodd> sturles: "A concern was raised regarding if satellite downloading would violate the Antarctic Treaty, but the Ministry of Foreign Affairs negated." <- yup
3464 2013-03-19 22:37:40 moleccc has joined
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3469 2013-03-19 22:39:51 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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3473 2013-03-19 22:41:39 reizuki__ has joined
3474 2013-03-19 22:42:14 <eitan> learn something new every day...didn't realize there was an Antarctic Treaty besides in Gundam :-)
3475 2013-03-19 22:42:24 stretchwarren has joined
3476 2013-03-19 22:44:15 <warren> It's also an issue for the chair platform down there.
3477 2013-03-19 22:46:17 stochasm has joined
3478 2013-03-19 22:47:16 kantlivelong has joined
3479 2013-03-19 22:48:42 ashod has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3480 2013-03-19 22:49:32 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3481 2013-03-19 22:50:25 <sturles> A better question is why Guam is so well connected.  Mostly military personell?  Require a lot of bandwidth for their entertainment during their long stay in nowhere?
3482 2013-03-19 22:50:49 <sturles> 9 cables.
3483 2013-03-19 22:52:32 <petertodd> sturles: Guam's on the path between Australia and Asia; easier to just run the cables to the closest land if it's not much of a detour probably.
3484 2013-03-19 22:54:04 <sturles> There are other islands on a more direct path.
3485 2013-03-19 22:54:15 nsillik has joined
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3498 2013-03-19 23:10:17 <johnDoe9> Hey, I'm wondering what significance "vout" has in listing out the unspent coins in the satoshi client.
3499 2013-03-19 23:10:56 agath has joined
3500 2013-03-19 23:11:24 <johnDoe9> When creating a raw transaction with multiple inputs, are all the "vouts" consistent of what they were when listing out the unspent inputs?
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3509 2013-03-19 23:18:53 <warren> sturles: Guam is the "cheap" alternative to Hawaii for vacation.
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3514 2013-03-19 23:20:51 <Vinnie_win> So SD spam volume is down? What was the final solution?
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3516 2013-03-19 23:21:36 <johnDoe9> Vinnie_win: raise btcusd price
3517 2013-03-19 23:21:43 <warren> Vinnie_win: just need to panic everyone with a temporary fork to limit block size growth for a few months. It's so easy.
3518 2013-03-19 23:21:56 <Vinnie_win> No really, what caused the sd volume to go down
3519 2013-03-19 23:22:05 <flyingkiwiguy> I wonder what the difficulty of decrypting the payload is: http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/03/the-worlds-most-mysterious-potentially-destructive-malware-is-not-stuxnet/
3520 2013-03-19 23:22:40 <flyingkiwiguy> seems like a job for an md5 ASIC rig
3521 2013-03-19 23:22:49 Diapolo has left ()
3522 2013-03-19 23:24:22 <Vinnie_win> so there's $2,400 worth of fees sitting in the mempool tx?
3523 2013-03-19 23:24:31 <warren> Vinnie_win: miners had to reduce their soft limit on block sizes to avoid the < 0.8 risk, causing lots of backed up tx's.  I'm guessing SD backed off voluntarily to both avoid being blamed for delays and also reduce calls for stronger measures like fee adjustments, as people's memory is very short.
3524 2013-03-19 23:24:48 <Vinnie_win> warren: Well that's great news. Thanks
3525 2013-03-19 23:24:56 <warren> Vinnie_win: (that's just my guess)
3526 2013-03-19 23:25:36 <Vinnie_win> http://blockchain.info/tx/4a660a17d2101bf1e11cd412f73cbf8d3a182519e3394c42c479879140461a19 What's the point of these outputs which are less than a penny?
3527 2013-03-19 23:25:38 <warren> Vinnie_win: this isn't great news.  As soon as May 15th happens, miners will increase their block size limit again, and spammers will return, except this time they can spam at a lower cost.
3528 2013-03-19 23:25:52 <Vinnie_win> May 15th is the expiration on soft limit?
3529 2013-03-19 23:26:08 xtor_ has joined
3530 2013-03-19 23:26:22 <warren> No.  Expiration of the < 0.8 BDB limitation that is currently a blocker for increasing the soft limit.
3531 2013-03-19 23:26:26 newyorker has joined
3532 2013-03-19 23:26:30 <Vinnie_win> Ah
3533 2013-03-19 23:26:58 snarl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3534 2013-03-19 23:26:58 <Vinnie_win> well there's plenty of time to put in the fee adjustments
3535 2013-03-19 23:27:14 <warren> Vinnie_win: good luck... folks here don't like it.
3536 2013-03-19 23:27:30 <Vinnie_win> oh? what was the conclusion on a solution then?
3537 2013-03-19 23:28:35 <warren> Vinnie_win: solution for what?  There is no problem.  Satoshi's original design is without flaws.  We only need to throw more hardware at it.
3538 2013-03-19 23:28:50 <warren> There might be sarcasm in that last statement.
3539 2013-03-19 23:28:56 <Vinnie_win> warren: gah
3540 2013-03-19 23:29:06 <Vinnie_win> warren: So there's no conensus on a preventative measure
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3544 2013-03-19 23:29:54 <warren> Vinnie_win:  a few people agree that it is problematic that the original fee structure failed to account for the UXTO set, but we are the minority.
3545 2013-03-19 23:29:59 extor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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3547 2013-03-19 23:30:03 <petertodd> Vinnie_win: What can you possibly do? SD pays fees, and other than the easly fixed unspendable failed bet tx looks like any other transaction.
3548 2013-03-19 23:30:35 <Vinnie_win> What happened to not relaying out < fee ?
3549 2013-03-19 23:30:38 <petertodd> Vinnie_win: If you can succesfully stop SD, you can stop any unpopular entity from using Bitcoin - probably not a good thing...
3550 2013-03-19 23:30:40 <warren> petertodd: Fees for blockchain storage isn't enough.  Fees should reflect both blockchain storage and uxto growth.
3551 2013-03-19 23:30:50 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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3553 2013-03-19 23:31:09 <petertodd> warren: Sure, but as I say, the unspendable you failed bet is easily fixable and doesn't stop what people consider to be spam.
3554 2013-03-19 23:31:17 <Vinnie_win> oh!!!!
3555 2013-03-19 23:31:24 <gavinandresen> warren: I think we need to make a couple of adjustments to the way fees / relaying / default transaction inclusion policy works, but we need to do it carefully
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3557 2013-03-19 23:31:29 <Vinnie_win> When I say spam I am referring specifically to the unspendable output
3558 2013-03-19 23:31:37 <warren> gavinandresen: agreed.
3559 2013-03-19 23:31:46 LainZ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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3561 2013-03-19 23:32:10 <gavinandresen> we might also need to do it in stages....
3562 2013-03-19 23:32:25 <gavinandresen> … but I haven't thought hard enough about it yet
3563 2013-03-19 23:32:57 <Vinnie_win> Alright, it sounds like there's a clear path to solving the unspendable txout problem (what I call spam). But there's nothing that can be done about the high volume of tx, since it can't be distinguished, and the consensus is that this is legitimate usage of the block chain. Sound about right?
3564 2013-03-19 23:33:00 lodse has joined
3565 2013-03-19 23:33:04 <warren> This desire to redesign the fee structure has nothing to do with moral judgements.  It is only to have fees better reflect actual costs.  KB-size alone is failing that.
3566 2013-03-19 23:33:23 <gavinandresen> sure.  We have to embrace transaction volume, more people == more success == more transactions
3567 2013-03-19 23:33:30 <petertodd> Vinnie_win: Pretty much. Why shouldn't you be able to get a transaction confirmed if it's standard and you pay a competitive fee?
3568 2013-03-19 23:33:32 <gavinandresen> … == more people, etc
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3571 2013-03-19 23:33:50 <Vinnie_win> petertodd: Yeah I never thought that the high volume alone was problematic, just the economically unspendable outputs.
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3575 2013-03-19 23:34:17 <petertodd> Vinnie_win: Yup. At worst we add a hard-forking UTXO blocksize limit.
3576 2013-03-19 23:34:24 <gavinandresen> I think we all agree we screwed up when we made 0-value outputs non-standard; we should have made dust-sized outputs non-standard.
3577 2013-03-19 23:34:32 <warren> Vinnie_win: gmaxwell has an idea to adjust the "size" by (txo - txi) that I like.  There are many ways this could be done.
3578 2013-03-19 23:35:05 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Yes
3579 2013-03-19 23:35:14 <warren> gavinandresen: we need to be careful about setting a hard-coded size of the definition of "dust" though.
3580 2013-03-19 23:35:22 <Vinnie_win> That sounds dandy but the take away point, at least for me, is that I can redirect my energies from the forum crusade to elsewhere.
3581 2013-03-19 23:35:51 <gavinandresen> warren: meh-- not really.  the IsStandard() definition can easily be changed, and it doesn't matter if some of the network has a different definition than others
3582 2013-03-19 23:36:21 <warren> gavinandresen: oh, where is that enforced?
3583 2013-03-19 23:36:25 <gavinandresen> probably we should just give it a default that makes sense now, and make it a command-line option that's easy to change.
3584 2013-03-19 23:36:33 <gavinandresen> IsStandard() is what is relayed and mined by default.
3585 2013-03-19 23:36:34 <warren> hm
3586 2013-03-19 23:36:35 <petertodd> warren: You don't need very many nodes with your preferred definition of dust to get your transaction propagated.
3587 2013-03-19 23:37:07 <warren> petertodd: however, you need only one cooperating node for a dust sender to get it mined
3588 2013-03-19 23:37:39 <petertodd> warren: Sure, which is why I said a hard-fork UTXO limit. However with 1MB blocks I don't think it's worth it.
3589 2013-03-19 23:38:06 <warren> This issue needs a lot more study.
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3591 2013-03-19 23:39:09 <warren> gavinandresen: if that's the case, then it shouldn't be a problem to make 0-value outputs standard again?
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3593 2013-03-19 23:39:18 <petertodd> warren: Sure, although I think there is rough consensus that we shouldn't allow the creation of outputs that don't make economic sense to spend.
3594 2013-03-19 23:39:53 <warren> petertodd: dunno, we have some self-proclaimed Satoshi fundamentalists who fight that idea.
3595 2013-03-19 23:40:17 extor has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
3596 2013-03-19 23:40:19 <petertodd> warren: Hence rough consensus...
3597 2013-03-19 23:40:47 <petertodd> warren: 0-value non-prunable outputs throw a wrench into the ability to put an upper limit on the UTXO set size, although granted that upper limit is huge.
3598 2013-03-19 23:40:54 <Vinnie_win> what's a 0-value output ??
3599 2013-03-19 23:41:05 <petertodd> Vinnie_win: An output with the value set to zero.
3600 2013-03-19 23:41:21 <Vinnie_win> I'm scratching my head trying to understand how these could be useful and why they should be relayed / mined
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3602 2013-03-19 23:41:54 <gavinandresen> you're going to get peter started on fidelity bonds....
3603 2013-03-19 23:42:08 <Vinnie_win> so... "creative uses of the block chain"
3604 2013-03-19 23:42:11 <warren> or timestamps
3605 2013-03-19 23:42:28 <petertodd> Pretty much
3606 2013-03-19 23:42:42 <gavinandresen> If I want to create a "fee only" transaction, then a 0-value output is the most obvious way of doing it.  and there are uses for fee-only transactions.
3607 2013-03-19 23:42:42 <petertodd> The important thing is to make sure they're prunable so they don't impose a long-term cost.
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3609 2013-03-19 23:42:57 <warren> a different overlapping subset of people dislike non-financial tx's
3610 2013-03-19 23:43:13 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Yes, which also implies the scriptPubKey of just OP_RETURN should be made IsStandard()
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3612 2013-03-19 23:43:19 <midnightmagic> Are there still raw block data files or is everything in leveldb now? That is, I'd like to extract block data from a running node and use it to seed another node nearby since -loadblock= seems to be quite a bit quicker on the LAN.
3613 2013-03-19 23:43:30 <Vinnie_win> Just my opinion...I'm less than 2 years in on all of this but I feel that Bitcoin will always be only a store of value. The payment network aspects of it, while nice to bootstrap the network in this early phase, will give way to the store of value due to the ongoing scaling issues. New cryptocurrency systems like Ripple will solve the payment network problem in a way that Bitcoin never
3614 2013-03-19 23:43:30 <Vinnie_win> can. Alternate networks will also provide contracts and digital instruments that will always outperform whatever can be hacked into Bitcoin.
3615 2013-03-19 23:43:45 <gavinandresen> still raw block data files, look in the blocks/ directory
3616 2013-03-19 23:43:49 <petertodd> Vinnie_win: That FinCEN ruling throws a wrench into all of it...
3617 2013-03-19 23:43:53 <midnightmagic> gavinandresen: Thank you kindly.
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3619 2013-03-19 23:44:29 <gavinandresen> midnightmagic: you can cat them all together, they're 128MB each now
3620 2013-03-19 23:45:04 <midnightmagic> gavinandresen: Absolutely perfect; I'd forgotten what happens to directory mtimes when files inside are modified.
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3626 2013-03-19 23:46:36 <warren> Can old blocks/blk*.dat files be hardlinked with other instances safely, or there's a risk of reorg?
3627 2013-03-19 23:47:00 stochasm has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3628 2013-03-19 23:47:04 <petertodd> warren: Blocks are only ever added to the block data files, never removed.
3629 2013-03-19 23:47:15 <warren> oh, good.  hardlink it is.
3630 2013-03-19 23:47:21 <warren> hardlink and read-only
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3633 2013-03-19 23:48:11 <gavinandresen> hardlink all but the last one, you don't want two instances trying to write to the same block file
3634 2013-03-19 23:48:19 <warren> yeah
3635 2013-03-19 23:48:58 <warren> hmm, so that means that all "invalid" side chains are forever copied, no matter how deep they become?
3636 2013-03-19 23:49:00 <midnightmagic> I thought leveldb was intolerant of read-only hardlinks?
3637 2013-03-19 23:49:22 <petertodd> warren: Yes, they might become valid again after all. :P
3638 2013-03-19 23:49:27 <warren> yikes
3639 2013-03-19 23:49:30 <petertodd> warren: It's a minor %1 or so overhead.
3640 2013-03-19 23:49:50 <petertodd> warren: A chain prior to a checkpoint is ignored after all.
3641 2013-03-19 23:50:01 <warren> oh good
3642 2013-03-19 23:50:39 <midnightmagic> I wonder if somewhere someone has a complete record of all the blocks ever transmitted through the network (and txn for that matter.)
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3644 2013-03-19 23:51:17 <petertodd> midnightmagic: blockchain.info is close...
3645 2013-03-19 23:51:25 <warren> You can't prove that you have all of them.  You can only prove the canon.
3646 2013-03-19 23:51:53 stochasm has joined
3647 2013-03-19 23:51:57 <midnightmagic> sorry. "that they've actually seen".
3648 2013-03-19 23:52:06 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, all the blocks or all the messages?
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3650 2013-03-19 23:52:54 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: blocks most importantly, txn, then messages. It would be interesting to see what has actually been injected into the network from time to time. (time samples for example)
3651 2013-03-19 23:53:50 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, keeping track of all the blocks is feasible, txn's if you filter them for obvious nonsense, messages? ahahaa
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3654 2013-03-19 23:54:38 <warren> gavinandresen: would there be value in bitcoind code to auto-detect other instances and know which blk*.dat to hardlink as time passes?
3655 2013-03-19 23:54:43 rbecker is now known as RBecker
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3657 2013-03-19 23:54:54 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: unique messages. obviously if someone sent me a txn and another user sent me the same thing, I don't care about #2. Or are you saying there is such traffic volume that even that is infeasible?
3658 2013-03-19 23:55:36 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, if you're storing the timestamp and hash of message #2-4000 then it's infeasible
3659 2013-03-19 23:55:39 <phantomcircuit> (i tried)
3660 2013-03-19 23:55:46 Guest652 has joined
3661 2013-03-19 23:55:52 <phantomcircuit> 7+ GB/day of raw unindexed data
3662 2013-03-19 23:55:54 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: thank you.
3663 2013-03-19 23:55:56 <gavinandresen> warren: I'd say no.  The only reason to run multiple instances on one machine is to have multiple wallets, and that's a feature that is being worked on for one instance.
3664 2013-03-19 23:56:49 <warren> gavinandresen: isn't another reason to run multiple instances to upgrade with minimal disruption?
3665 2013-03-19 23:56:54 <gmaxwell> warren: plus the files are not normally hardlinkable in any case.
3666 2013-03-19 23:56:54 OldEnK has joined
3667 2013-03-19 23:57:04 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: how quickly is the Ubuntu PPA updated after a major update?
3668 2013-03-19 23:57:12 <gavinandresen> yeah, your two instances will see blocks in different orders
3669 2013-03-19 23:57:13 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
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3671 2013-03-19 23:57:24 eitan has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3672 2013-03-19 23:57:25 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: depends on how busy BlueMatt is
3673 2013-03-19 23:57:34 <etotheipi_> just curious... if there's an emergency upgrade, is it likely to be available in the PPA within... minutes?  hours? days?
3674 2013-03-19 23:57:40 <gavinandresen> days
3675 2013-03-19 23:57:54 <etotheipi_> okay, perfect
3676 2013-03-19 23:58:07 <etotheipi_> I mean, not perfect, but that's the info I needed
3677 2013-03-19 23:58:27 <warren> Oh, so you can only safely hardlink up to the last checkpoint.
3678 2013-03-19 23:58:49 <etotheipi_> thanks gavinandresen
3679 2013-03-19 23:58:52 <gavinandresen> no, you can only safely hardlink once, when one of the instances is starting from scratch
3680 2013-03-19 23:59:00 <warren> ah
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