1 2013-03-21 00:00:25 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
   2 2013-03-21 00:03:31 <Scrat> gmaxwell: okay I will read up on it
   3 2013-03-21 00:04:29 <gmaxwell> But, yea, I don't think it's really all that interesting for bitcoin.
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  17 2013-03-21 00:27:13 <Prattler> I don't understand this getwork change thing. What pool software should I use if I want to make a mining pool?
  18 2013-03-21 00:27:39 <jgarzik> Prattler: eloipool seems like a good choice
  19 2013-03-21 00:27:59 <Prattler> is pushpool discontinued?
  20 2013-03-21 00:28:28 <Prattler> what does the getwork change mean for mining pool software options? What is off?
  21 2013-03-21 00:28:38 abracadabra has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  22 2013-03-21 00:29:01 <sipa> getwork change?
  23 2013-03-21 00:29:11 <Prattler> I might be confusing something
  24 2013-03-21 00:29:21 <jgarzik> Prattler: getwork is deprecated in favor of getblocktemplate ("GBT").  pushpool is outdated too, relying much on getwork.
  25 2013-03-21 00:29:32 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  26 2013-03-21 00:29:38 * jgarzik occasionally toys with the idea of stratum support for cpuminer and pushpool
  27 2013-03-21 00:29:39 <Prattler> will pushpool produce invalid blocks or does it just suck?
  28 2013-03-21 00:29:51 <jgarzik> Prattler: 'getwork' just cannot keep up
  29 2013-03-21 00:30:04 i2pRelay has joined
  30 2013-03-21 00:30:18 <Prattler> jgarzik, care to elaborate why getwork fails? If it's possible in short
  31 2013-03-21 00:31:06 <sipa> Prattler: getwork doesn't allow the client to modify the work, essentially requiring a getwork call every 4G hashes
  32 2013-03-21 00:31:13 <Prattler> ah ok
  33 2013-03-21 00:31:20 <sipa> with faster hardware, or larger pools, this is simply too slow
  34 2013-03-21 00:31:36 <Prattler> but it still works on small load and will still work in the future?
  35 2013-03-21 00:31:57 coinners has joined
  36 2013-03-21 00:32:21 <bVector> you cpu mining?
  37 2013-03-21 00:32:45 <denisx> jgarzik: did you ever test you asic with pushpool?
  38 2013-03-21 00:32:50 <denisx> your
  39 2013-03-21 00:33:36 <Prattler> ok, I think I got it :) Thanks for the answers!
  40 2013-03-21 00:33:51 abracadabra has joined
  41 2013-03-21 00:34:09 <denisx> I liked that pushpool is only some sort of proxy for bitcoind
  42 2013-03-21 00:34:18 <denisx> that is not the case with the stratum-protocol, right?
  43 2013-03-21 00:34:24 <denisx> also not with GBT
  44 2013-03-21 00:36:10 pooler has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  45 2013-03-21 00:36:49 AtashiCon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  46 2013-03-21 00:36:54 <jgarzik> denisx: Never tested the ASIC with pushpool... but given that it simply proxies the 'getwork' request 1:1 to/from bitcoind, and bitcoind was tested directly, by inference it will not work :)
  47 2013-03-21 00:37:22 <jgarzik> denisx: pushpool needs (a) a database thread and (b) GBT support
  48 2013-03-21 00:37:31 <jgarzik> denisx: it would still be viable and scalable, with those two changes
  49 2013-03-21 00:37:35 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  50 2013-03-21 00:37:44 gfawkes__ is now known as gfawkes
  51 2013-03-21 00:38:07 i2pRelay has joined
  52 2013-03-21 00:38:25 <jgarzik> denisx: and on the other end of things, pushpool could probably use stratum support
  53 2013-03-21 00:38:36 BLZNGPNGN has joined
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  59 2013-03-21 00:40:12 <denisx> but the only stratum implementation is the stratum-mining source on github?
  60 2013-03-21 00:43:12 guruvan has quit (Quit: oh noessss)
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  62 2013-03-21 00:43:30 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: it also needs to sanely handle dead LP connections..
  63 2013-03-21 00:43:37 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  64 2013-03-21 00:43:48 <Luke-Jr> denisx: Eloipool also implements a more advanced stratum server
  65 2013-03-21 00:43:58 guruvan has joined
  66 2013-03-21 00:44:01 <jgarzik> denisx: stratum-mining proxy, eloipool, p2pool
  67 2013-03-21 00:44:06 <jgarzik> all implement stratum
  68 2013-03-21 00:44:11 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: also, for ASICs, pushpool would also need vardiff
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  71 2013-03-21 00:44:31 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: any time/interest in meeting up on Friday at the airport?
  72 2013-03-21 00:44:31 <denisx> all same base?
  73 2013-03-21 00:44:39 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: vardiff or manual minimum diff
  74 2013-03-21 00:44:39 segy has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
  75 2013-03-21 00:44:42 <jgarzik> denisx: no
  76 2013-03-21 00:44:53 <Luke-Jr> denisx: at least Eloipool's stratum is completely from scratch
  77 2013-03-21 00:45:08 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: I'd love to meet and say hi, maybe grab a beer
  78 2013-03-21 00:45:16 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: timing is unknown
  79 2013-03-21 00:45:31 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: unfortunately, my layover probably isn't long enough for a drink
  80 2013-03-21 00:45:33 <denisx> but all python?
  81 2013-03-21 00:45:36 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  82 2013-03-21 00:45:44 <Luke-Jr> denisx: unfortunately, yes
  83 2013-03-21 00:45:49 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: busy @ 9 & 10am, but the big thing is a possible real estate closing
  84 2013-03-21 00:45:54 <jgarzik> of unknown time
  85 2013-03-21 00:46:02 <Luke-Jr> denisx: you could get by with just GBT though - libblkmaker implements a client end in C
  86 2013-03-21 00:46:09 i2pRelay has joined
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  89 2013-03-21 00:46:48 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: my 1 hour layover begins at 4:52 PM per flight sch
  90 2013-03-21 00:46:49 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: so yeah, give me a ping
  91 2013-03-21 00:47:15 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: seems doable.  real estate lawyers don't like to work past early afternoon.
  92 2013-03-21 00:48:23 segy has joined
  93 2013-03-21 00:48:39 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: you'd probably have to exit the security zone & return
  94 2013-03-21 00:49:04 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: that would suck - I think the recommended time to begin entry is 1 hour before flight :/
  95 2013-03-21 00:49:51 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  96 2013-03-21 00:50:04 <Luke-Jr> and IIRC that airport, the behind-security area is huge
  97 2013-03-21 00:50:11 D34TH has joined
  98 2013-03-21 00:50:16 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
  99 2013-03-21 00:50:35 <Luke-Jr> hrm
 100 2013-03-21 00:50:39 HM2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 101 2013-03-21 00:50:47 HM2 has joined
 102 2013-03-21 00:51:20 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: they don't let people without a boarding pass through security gates anymore
 103 2013-03-21 00:51:39 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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 108 2013-03-21 00:54:09 FredEE has joined
 109 2013-03-21 00:54:10 i2pRelay has joined
 110 2013-03-21 00:55:38 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: the behind-security area is indeed very large
 111 2013-03-21 00:55:48 <jgarzik> though moving sidewalks help
 112 2013-03-21 00:56:18 pooler has joined
 113 2013-03-21 00:58:08 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: CLT security says longest entry time (outside of extraordinary circumstances) is 20 mins
 114 2013-03-21 00:58:16 <pjorrit_> tha area has always been huge
 115 2013-03-21 00:58:19 <Luke-Jr> not sure that'll make enough time though
 116 2013-03-21 00:58:44 <sipa> what airport?
 117 2013-03-21 00:59:20 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: I'm at RDU not CLT
 118 2013-03-21 00:59:30 <Luke-Jr> :/
 119 2013-03-21 00:59:37 <jgarzik> CLT is ~3 hours drive
 120 2013-03-21 00:59:43 <Luke-Jr> eck
 121 2013-03-21 00:59:46 ToryJujube has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 122 2013-03-21 00:59:48 <gmaxwell> doh. Good thing you worked out those details.
 123 2013-03-21 00:59:52 <sipa> lol
 124 2013-03-21 00:59:54 <Luke-Jr> probably not workable, all things considered
 125 2013-03-21 01:00:08 * jgarzik promises to look up at the sky and wave
 126 2013-03-21 01:00:10 <BlueMatt> I wouldnt worry about security at rdu, its usually really quite litght
 127 2013-03-21 01:00:14 <BlueMatt> oh...
 128 2013-03-21 01:00:20 <randy-waterhouse> jgarzik: bitcoin bought you a digs upgrade? :)
 129 2013-03-21 01:00:31 jrmithdobbs has joined
 130 2013-03-21 01:00:31 <jgarzik> randy-waterhouse: ?
 131 2013-03-21 01:00:48 <Luke-Jr> oh well, maybe some other day someday XD
 132 2013-03-21 01:00:52 <randy-waterhouse> real estate closing ... sorry not prying at all, just musing
 133 2013-03-21 01:01:34 <sipa> jgarzik: where you going?
 134 2013-03-21 01:01:40 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 135 2013-03-21 01:02:08 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I'm flying back from BFL to Florida. Heard jgarzik was close by my layover stop, but apparently not as close as I thought
 136 2013-03-21 01:02:12 i2pRelay has joined
 137 2013-03-21 01:02:34 <sipa> BFL == butterfly labs?
 138 2013-03-21 01:02:37 * BlueMatt spent last week in clt
 139 2013-03-21 01:02:40 <Luke-Jr> sipa: yes
 140 2013-03-21 01:02:50 <BlueMatt> seriously though, jgarzik needs to come by chapel hill sometime
 141 2013-03-21 01:02:53 <sipa> BlueMatt: an entire week in an airport? you poor thing
 142 2013-03-21 01:02:59 <sipa> Luke-Jr: cool
 143 2013-03-21 01:03:01 <doublec> denisx: SockThing is an open source stratum implementation too
 144 2013-03-21 01:03:03 <BlueMatt> sipa: heh, no my parents live in the city
 145 2013-03-21 01:03:12 <doublec> denisx: https://github.com/fireduck64/SockThing
 146 2013-03-21 01:03:13 <sipa> oh, boring!
 147 2013-03-21 01:03:15 <gmaxwell> a week in an airport? must be flying united.
 148 2013-03-21 01:03:15 jrmithdobbs has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 149 2013-03-21 01:03:20 <Luke-Jr> LOL
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 153 2013-03-21 01:03:56 dvide has joined
 154 2013-03-21 01:04:21 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: heh, I was just over there with the fam, at the botanical gardens in Chapel Hill
 155 2013-03-21 01:04:33 <jgarzik> some damn basketball thing kept getting in our way
 156 2013-03-21 01:04:36 * jgarzik kicks sports
 157 2013-03-21 01:04:40 <realazthat> hi, does the challenge script always must be 65 bytes?
 158 2013-03-21 01:04:47 owowo has joined
 159 2013-03-21 01:04:54 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: hey now, some of us take basketball seriously
 160 2013-03-21 01:05:02 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: anyway, come over sometime and ping me
 161 2013-03-21 01:05:35 <sipa> realazthat: "challenge script" ?
 162 2013-03-21 01:05:55 <sipa> serialized uncompressed public keys are 65 bytes
 163 2013-03-21 01:06:07 <cyphase> which version of bitcoin-qt added the sign message option in the gui?
 164 2013-03-21 01:06:39 <realazthat> sipa: I mean, under the public key field, is it always a public key of that length (in block storage)
 165 2013-03-21 01:06:46 <realazthat> or are there other ops
 166 2013-03-21 01:06:58 <realazthat> apparently, yes, there are other ops
 167 2013-03-21 01:07:00 <realazthat> I see OP_DUP
 168 2013-03-21 01:07:22 <Luke-Jr> you mean I'm not the only one who hates sports?
 169 2013-03-21 01:07:36 <jgarzik> There is only one opcode, OP_DWIM.
 170 2013-03-21 01:08:01 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i don't mind doing (some) sport, but i never understood watching others do it
 171 2013-03-21 01:08:13 <realazthat> OP_DWIM?
 172 2013-03-21 01:08:16 <gmaxwell> I'm indiffernt to sports, dislike roudy sports fans. :P
 173 2013-03-21 01:08:22 <realazthat> rofl
 174 2013-03-21 01:08:29 <Luke-Jr> realazthat: scriptSig usually doesn't allow anything other than pushes
 175 2013-03-21 01:08:33 <cyphase> WOO, WE WON!! *riot*
 176 2013-03-21 01:08:38 <cyphase> NOO, WE LOST!! *riot*
 177 2013-03-21 01:08:39 * BlueMatt feels out of place...back to irl where everyone takes our basketball program seriously
 178 2013-03-21 01:08:42 <gmaxwell> realazthat: Take a step back, what are you trying to accomplish? When we know that we can send you to what you need to read.
 179 2013-03-21 01:09:27 <denisx> doublec: also in python?
 180 2013-03-21 01:09:42 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 181 2013-03-21 01:09:56 <realazthat> gmaxwell: I am just trying to understand the blockchain for now. in my parsing script, I put an assert to ensure that a tx output has a scriptPubKey of 67 bytes with a 65 byte pk, but apparently this is wrong, sometimes it can have something else in there
 182 2013-03-21 01:10:11 <gmaxwell> cyphase: here is the pull request for the gui: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/582
 183 2013-03-21 01:10:15 i2pRelay has joined
 184 2013-03-21 01:10:17 <BlueMatt> realazthat: it can have any arbitrary script in it
 185 2013-03-21 01:10:31 <jgarzik> Sports riots can be fun.  Watching baseball or basketball is coma-inducing though.
 186 2013-03-21 01:10:48 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: so you never watch unc, eh?
 187 2013-03-21 01:10:57 <gmaxwell> realazthat: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
 188 2013-03-21 01:11:11 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 189 2013-03-21 01:11:22 <doublec> denisx: SockThing is java
 190 2013-03-21 01:11:28 jrmithdobbs has joined
 191 2013-03-21 01:11:29 <Luke-Jr> meta: i2pRelay was in here? is that a good idea? :/
 192 2013-03-21 01:11:35 <realazthat> omy lol
 193 2013-03-21 01:11:42 <realazthat> that makes it a bit complicated
 194 2013-03-21 01:11:45 <realazthat> gmaxwell: ty
 195 2013-03-21 01:11:54 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: hm. I've always though that basketball was one of the more interesting ones to watch. (well, thats not saying much)— lots of movement, occasional heroics like someone making a full court shot.
 196 2013-03-21 01:12:12 <ashod> im new to irc - can files be uploaded here ( a text file )
 197 2013-03-21 01:12:25 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: you need to come to a unc-duke game
 198 2013-03-21 01:12:27 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's a good idea until someone does something obnoxious with it, and then we kick it.
 199 2013-03-21 01:12:34 <BlueMatt> ashod: use pastebin
 200 2013-03-21 01:12:35 <sipa> ashod: you typically use paste sites
 201 2013-03-21 01:13:09 <ashod> i'm close to finishing off my project - which is a subserver for bitcoin - i want to show
 202 2013-03-21 01:13:14 <ashod> the data it collects
 203 2013-03-21 01:13:17 zooko has joined
 204 2013-03-21 01:13:28 <k9quaint> BlueMatt: what color blue are you?
 205 2013-03-21 01:13:30 <sipa> what is a subserver?
 206 2013-03-21 01:13:37 <BlueMatt> k9quaint: light
 207 2013-03-21 01:13:39 <Luke-Jr> if you just discovered scripts, I daresay you are NOT close.
 208 2013-03-21 01:13:42 <k9quaint> BlueMatt: good man
 209 2013-03-21 01:14:06 <k9quaint> is DarkBlueMatt your evil twin bent on destroying bitcoin? :P
 210 2013-03-21 01:14:18 <BlueMatt> heh, probably
 211 2013-03-21 01:14:28 ikbenwouter has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 212 2013-03-21 01:14:32 <ashod> a program which makes connections to bitcoind , and provides maanagement of the data, analysis etc, and clients connect to this subserver, which give them a) an easier API, b) more features
 213 2013-03-21 01:14:41 DarkBlueMatt has joined
 214 2013-03-21 01:15:04 <DarkBlueMatt> someone talking about me?
 215 2013-03-21 01:15:06 <k9quaint> FILTH!! MUST EXPUNGE THE FILTH!
 216 2013-03-21 01:15:08 <ashod> here is the crawled data for blocks, - in a more linear , easier to follow format
 217 2013-03-21 01:15:24 <k9quaint> sorry, knee jerk reaction to Duke fans
 218 2013-03-21 01:15:33 <Luke-Jr> ashod: why not just add that to bitcoind? O.o
 219 2013-03-21 01:15:40 DarkBlueMatt has quit (Client Quit)
 220 2013-03-21 01:15:50 demn has joined
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 222 2013-03-21 01:17:07 D34TH has joined
 223 2013-03-21 01:17:36 <ashod> because it also provides clustering of bitcoin servers, and is designed to be portable between systems
 224 2013-03-21 01:17:40 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 225 2013-03-21 01:18:13 i2pRelay has joined
 226 2013-03-21 01:18:26 <ashod> here is a random probe of any block/hash ,
 227 2013-03-21 01:18:27 <ashod>          0          :------- getblockhash --------
 228 2013-03-21 01:18:27 <ashod>          0          :               index: 0
 229 2013-03-21 01:18:27 <ashod>          0          :                hash: 000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f
 230 2013-03-21 01:18:27 <ashod>        733 +733     :------- getblockhash --------
 231 2013-03-21 01:18:27 <ashod>        733          :               index: 42
 232 2013-03-21 01:18:27 ashod has quit (Excess Flood)
 233 2013-03-21 01:18:39 ashod has joined
 234 2013-03-21 01:18:53 <ashod> oops
 235 2013-03-21 01:19:15 <BlueMatt> you have to use a pastebin
 236 2013-03-21 01:19:18 <ashod> sorry - file send, - sent as paste
 237 2013-03-21 01:20:57 <ashod> ok pastebin - first time hearing of it - great tool !!!
 238 2013-03-21 01:21:01 <ashod> does this work
 239 2013-03-21 01:21:02 <ashod> http://pastebin.com/K1BmGbVq
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 243 2013-03-21 01:22:16 demn has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 244 2013-03-21 01:24:57 <ashod> did it work ?
 245 2013-03-21 01:25:34 <Eliel_> does bitcoind limit the attempts to unlock a locked wallet if they keep failing?
 246 2013-03-21 01:25:35 grau has joined
 247 2013-03-21 01:25:37 <BlueMatt> yes...so what is the point of this?
 248 2013-03-21 01:25:44 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 249 2013-03-21 01:25:45 <BlueMatt> Eliel_: no
 250 2013-03-21 01:25:45 Boydy has joined
 251 2013-03-21 01:25:47 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 252 2013-03-21 01:26:16 i2pRelay has joined
 253 2013-03-21 01:26:18 <ashod> what would be the best way to demo something like this - a screencast of it ? -
 254 2013-03-21 01:26:32 <BlueMatt> an explanation of use-cases
 255 2013-03-21 01:27:01 <ashod> i've never been good at getting across my idea with words -
 256 2013-03-21 01:27:10 X-Scale has joined
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 258 2013-03-21 01:28:17 ProfMac has joined
 259 2013-03-21 01:29:11 <Luke-Jr> ashod: assume you've already explained what it does, and we ask: why should we care? :p
 260 2013-03-21 01:30:00 <ashod> it automates the rpc api , and builds new feature from this, - and gives access to these new features via a secondary api , which clients connect to-- so rather than connecting directly to bitcoind ,  you connect to this server, which in turn has persistant connections to the bitcoin,,
 261 2013-03-21 01:30:18 <ashod> what a stupid comment Luke-Jr -
 262 2013-03-21 01:30:23 <ashod> who the fuck are you
 263 2013-03-21 01:30:45 john__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 264 2013-03-21 01:30:48 <bwen> my my, so defensive
 265 2013-03-21 01:31:06 <ashod> not really
 266 2013-03-21 01:32:02 <Luke-Jr> ashod: that's what it does, not why we should care.
 267 2013-03-21 01:32:58 <Eliel_> ashod: in other words, Luke's asking what's the point in doing all that. He wants the "why" not the "how".
 268 2013-03-21 01:33:22 <Luke-Jr> [01:04:57] <BlueMatt> an explanation of use-cases <-- heck, I'm just explaining BlueMatt's suggestion :p
 269 2013-03-21 01:33:45 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 270 2013-03-21 01:34:12 <ashod> ok , i'll make a list of why i made this, and what it will achieve - will think about it
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 273 2013-03-21 01:34:35 <bwen> usualy its the other way around...
 274 2013-03-21 01:34:53 nus- is now known as nus
 275 2013-03-21 01:36:25 <ashod> what do you mean bwen
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 277 2013-03-21 01:37:31 <bwen> I make something because it serves a purpose.... it sounded like you made something and now you are trying to find a purpose for it...
 278 2013-03-21 01:39:02 <ashod> obviously - ,, , i knew why i made the thing, and what purpose it serves - i meant i'll make a list for you guys, rather than just talking about it -- as i said before im not too good at getting my ideas across to others
 279 2013-03-21 01:39:24 <bwen> oh aight, dont mind me. I'm a nobody :]
 280 2013-03-21 01:39:24 <ashod> why would anyone make something and then find a purpose for it ???
 281 2013-03-21 01:39:39 <bwen> exactly my though :]
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 285 2013-03-21 01:42:30 <Eliel_> I made a simple layer myself that's kind of like that. It's purpose is to allow creating new addresses and monitoring transactions to and from them without allowing transfer of the coins from the same interface. Makes life more difficult for a hacker if one ever gets into the server :)
 286 2013-03-21 01:43:13 sebicas has joined
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 288 2013-03-21 01:45:25 <phantomcircuit> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155497.msg1649038#msg1649038
 289 2013-03-21 01:45:28 <phantomcircuit> erhmm
 290 2013-03-21 01:45:58 <phantomcircuit> i know what he meant, anybody with half a brain knew what he meant, but someone is going to take that as an invitation to flood the mainnet with junk
 291 2013-03-21 01:47:40 Transisto has joined
 292 2013-03-21 01:48:33 <gmaxwell> someone should probably do NS3 support for bitcoin network simulation.
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 298 2013-03-21 01:53:11 <ashod> ns3 ?
 299 2013-03-21 01:53:25 <Transisto> is there a bitcoid argument needed to get more than 8 connection ? (linux vps)
 300 2013-03-21 01:53:40 <sipa> Transisto: bitcoind will not make more than 8 outgoing connections; you don't need more
 301 2013-03-21 01:53:53 <sipa> Transisto: if you want more connections, make sure you're reachable on port 8333
 302 2013-03-21 01:54:00 <gmaxwell> Transisto: You will get more than 8 in total if you are accepting inbound connections, however.
 303 2013-03-21 01:54:14 <Transisto> I'm setting this up just trying to help spread the blockchain
 304 2013-03-21 01:54:23 <sipa> great
 305 2013-03-21 01:54:34 <Transisto> I tried with -listen
 306 2013-03-21 01:54:43 <sipa> is your port 8333 firewalled?
 307 2013-03-21 01:54:47 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
 308 2013-03-21 01:54:57 <ashod> what is ns3
 309 2013-03-21 01:55:23 <Transisto> I did python -m SimpleHTTPServer 8333  to confirm that connection goes through
 310 2013-03-21 01:55:58 <BlueMatt> Transisto: yes, but can someone not on your network connect to it?
 311 2013-03-21 01:56:31 <Transisto> to IP:8333 yes
 312 2013-03-21 01:57:32 <Transisto> on my network ? as I said, it's a VPS, and port 8333 is exposed
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 314 2013-03-21 01:58:05 <sipa> Transisto: perhaps bitcoind is unable to determine its own IP address
 315 2013-03-21 01:58:10 <BlueMatt> ashod: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ns3
 316 2013-03-21 01:58:12 <Transisto> possibly
 317 2013-03-21 01:58:15 <sipa> you can pass -externalip=IP
 318 2013-03-21 01:58:22 <sipa> to tell it how to announce itself
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 320 2013-03-21 01:58:39 <BlueMatt> Transisto: on the other hand, did you wait a bit, because you wont get >8 instantly
 321 2013-03-21 01:59:45 <realazthat> hey, so I am trying to understand the script, and I'm looking at block 728, "scriptPubKey":"OP_DUP OP_HASH160 12ab8dc588ca9d5787dde7eb29569da63c3a238c OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG"
 322 2013-03-21 01:59:53 <realazthat> can someone walk me through what its doing?
 323 2013-03-21 02:00:09 <sipa> realazthat: this scripts is a standard pay-to-pubkeyhash script
 324 2013-03-21 02:00:27 <sipa> realazthat: it assumes two values are already on the stack: a signature and a public key
 325 2013-03-21 02:00:40 <sipa> so the initial stack is: <sig> <pubkey>
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 327 2013-03-21 02:00:50 <sipa> OP_DUP duplicates the element on the top of the stack
 328 2013-03-21 02:01:00 <sipa> so you get: <sig> <pubkey> <pubkey>
 329 2013-03-21 02:01:01 <Transisto> @bluematt, if there is 1min delay from 0 to 8 it shouldnt take much more time to get to 9
 330 2013-03-21 02:01:22 <sipa> Transisto: someone has to connect to you; it takes a while before your IP gets broadcast to the network
 331 2013-03-21 02:01:31 <realazthat> sipa: wait, the signature is on the stack from the input that references it, but which public key is on the stack?
 332 2013-03-21 02:01:34 <sipa> Transisto: the first 8 are fast, as those are connections you initialize
 333 2013-03-21 02:01:41 <Transisto> Oh, I see
 334 2013-03-21 02:01:58 <sipa> Transisto: the pubkey whose hash is the address the output being spent was assigned to
 335 2013-03-21 02:02:05 <Transisto> I'll at least have it get all blocks
 336 2013-03-21 02:02:21 sebuba has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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 339 2013-03-21 02:02:39 <sipa> realazthat: ok, next step is OP_HASH160
 340 2013-03-21 02:02:51 <sipa> which takes the top element and hashes it
 341 2013-03-21 02:02:54 agricocb has joined
 342 2013-03-21 02:03:01 <sipa> so the result is: <sig> <pubkey> <hash of pubkey>
 343 2013-03-21 02:03:03 <realazthat> sipa: right but this script *is* the public key field
 344 2013-03-21 02:03:09 <realazthat> thats why I am confused
 345 2013-03-21 02:03:12 <sipa> realazthat: forget that it is called scriptPubKey
 346 2013-03-21 02:03:21 <sipa> realazthat: this is historic, and mostly wrong now
 347 2013-03-21 02:03:24 <realazthat> ok
 348 2013-03-21 02:03:36 nelisky has quit (Quit: nelisky)
 349 2013-03-21 02:03:39 <sipa> call it scriptOutput and scriptSpend or so
 350 2013-03-21 02:03:51 <sipa> instead of scriptPubket and scriptSig
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 352 2013-03-21 02:04:09 <realazthat> ok
 353 2013-03-21 02:04:09 <realazthat> so how does the stack initialize again
 354 2013-03-21 02:04:28 <sipa> realazthat: the spending script (the one in the txin, "scriptSig") does
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 357 2013-03-21 02:04:42 <realazthat> right
 358 2013-03-21 02:04:45 <realazthat> I mean with what data
 359 2013-03-21 02:04:50 <sipa> what data?
 360 2013-03-21 02:04:59 <realazthat> <sipa> realazthat: it assumes two values are already on the stack: a signature and a public key
 361 2013-03-21 02:05:04 wrabbit has joined
 362 2013-03-21 02:05:09 <realazthat> which "public key"
 363 2013-03-21 02:05:10 owowo has joined
 364 2013-03-21 02:05:12 <sipa> yes, the input script puts it there
 365 2013-03-21 02:05:18 <sipa> so the spender does
 366 2013-03-21 02:05:33 <sipa> realazthat: when spending an output, you first execute the spending script, and then use the resulting stack as initial stack for executing the output script
 367 2013-03-21 02:05:47 <realazthat> ok
 368 2013-03-21 02:05:50 <realazthat> ok I get it
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 370 2013-03-21 02:05:56 <realazthat> so you just run the script and let things happen
 371 2013-03-21 02:06:08 <sipa> next up: the 160-bit constant, which is the address the coin was assigned to
 372 2013-03-21 02:06:26 i2pRelay has joined
 373 2013-03-21 02:06:30 <sipa> so the resulting stack becomes: <sig> <pubkey> <hash of pubkey> <expected hash of pubkey>
 374 2013-03-21 02:06:46 <realazthat> ok
 375 2013-03-21 02:06:54 <realazthat> OP_EQUALVERIFY I get
 376 2013-03-21 02:06:58 <realazthat> takes 2 off the stack
 377 2013-03-21 02:07:02 <sipa> OP_EQUALVERIFY takes the two top elements of the stack, and if they are not equal, aborts with failure (making the script evaluation return invalid)
 378 2013-03-21 02:07:20 <sipa> so you have either <failure>, or <sig> <pubkey> left
 379 2013-03-21 02:07:32 <realazthat> ah I see here
 380 2013-03-21 02:07:51 <sipa> then there is OP_CHECKSIG which takes two elements of the stack, and validates whether they are a public key, and a valid signature for that public key
 381 2013-03-21 02:08:00 <realazthat> so what its doing is (expecting that) including the public key together with the input?
 382 2013-03-21 02:08:07 <realazthat> can't anyone spend this tx then?
 383 2013-03-21 02:08:07 <sipa> yup
 384 2013-03-21 02:08:16 <sipa> no, because you still need the signature
 385 2013-03-21 02:08:21 <sipa> which needs the private key to create
 386 2013-03-21 02:08:23 <realazthat> ah right
 387 2013-03-21 02:08:34 <realazthat> ok, so now I understand this on a step-by-step
 388 2013-03-21 02:08:40 <realazthat> but I still don't understand the point
 389 2013-03-21 02:08:44 <sipa> the original reason for this was simply because public keys were 65 bytes
 390 2013-03-21 02:08:45 <realazthat> like what does this do
 391 2013-03-21 02:08:57 <sipa> and satoshi wanted shorter addresses
 392 2013-03-21 02:09:14 <sipa> so this mechanism allows 160-bit hashes of public keys, and still be able to spend them
 393 2013-03-21 02:09:32 <realazthat> ah hmm
 394 2013-03-21 02:09:39 <realazthat> interesting, I'll have to think on it
 395 2013-03-21 02:09:44 <sipa> so it simply means the sender doesn't need to know the full public key
 396 2013-03-21 02:10:25 <realazthat> tyvm
 397 2013-03-21 02:10:34 <realazthat> hmm
 398 2013-03-21 02:10:43 <realazthat> so how do I figure out a bitcoin address for this
 399 2013-03-21 02:11:00 aphorism has left ()
 400 2013-03-21 02:11:07 <sipa> it's the base58check encoded form of 12ab8dc588ca9d5787dde7eb29569da63c3a238c (which is in hex)
 401 2013-03-21 02:11:17 <realazthat> ok
 402 2013-03-21 02:11:23 <realazthat> what about some unconventional arbitrary script
 403 2013-03-21 02:11:34 <realazthat> how would one compute the bitcoin address then
 404 2013-03-21 02:11:39 <sipa> there isn't one
 405 2013-03-21 02:11:42 <realazthat> ok
 406 2013-03-21 02:11:50 <sipa> a bitcoin address is a template for a particular set of script
 407 2013-03-21 02:11:59 <sipa> not every script matches such a template
 408 2013-03-21 02:12:06 <realazthat> is it this and the regular, or are there more in the set
 409 2013-03-21 02:12:16 <realazthat> (and where can I find this convention)
 410 2013-03-21 02:12:23 <sipa> there are only two types of addresses defined right now
 411 2013-03-21 02:12:30 <sipa> send-to-pubkey-hash (like this one)
 412 2013-03-21 02:12:41 coinners has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
 413 2013-03-21 02:12:47 <sipa> and send-to-script-hash (see BIP13 and BIP16)
 414 2013-03-21 02:13:18 <realazthat> ok cool
 415 2013-03-21 02:13:21 <realazthat> ty for your time
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 417 2013-03-21 02:13:51 <gmaxwell> realazthat: addresses are not fundimental to the bitcoin system— they're UI frosting, effectively.
 418 2013-03-21 02:13:55 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 419 2013-03-21 02:14:01 <gmaxwell> realazthat: the blockchain itself has no concept of addresses.
 420 2013-03-21 02:14:10 D34TH has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 421 2013-03-21 02:14:14 <realazthat> right, I think thats why I said convention
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 423 2013-03-21 02:15:16 <Transisto> How long should I expect my # of connection to pass the 8 stage ?  maybe someone can addnode 206.253.166.38 ?
 424 2013-03-21 02:15:44 <BCB> andy help for this error on a failed bitcoind
 425 2013-03-21 02:15:45 <BCB> ERROR: FetchInputs() : f04f336462 mempool Tx prev not found 9ac6f20ce0
 426 2013-03-21 02:15:45 <BCB> stored orphan tx f04f336462 (mapsz 51)
 427 2013-03-21 02:15:48 <gmaxwell> Transisto: it won't go over 8 until you are mostly caught up with the chain.
 428 2013-03-21 02:15:58 <gmaxwell> Transisto: and then it should rapidly go up.
 429 2013-03-21 02:16:12 <gmaxwell> BCB: thats not a 'real' error.
 430 2013-03-21 02:16:17 <Transisto> Reasuring thanks
 431 2013-03-21 02:16:28 <BCB> gmaxwell, it says "error"
 432 2013-03-21 02:16:31 <BCB> gmaxwell, what is it
 433 2013-03-21 02:16:54 <muhoo> exception, sounds like
 434 2013-03-21 02:17:00 <gmaxwell> BCB: Yes, it says error. But it just means you've recieved a transaction which spends transactions you node doesn't know about.
 435 2013-03-21 02:17:15 <gmaxwell> Thats all.. and thats expected, especially for a node that was recent started.
 436 2013-03-21 02:17:39 <gmaxwell> (FetchInputs failing while validating a block is another matter entirely)
 437 2013-03-21 02:17:40 <BCB> gmaxwell, makes sense.  Looks like its catching up
 438 2013-03-21 02:17:42 <BCB> Thanks
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 527 2013-03-21 03:14:56 <norn> hi guys, can somebody help me with BC API? I can't find any method to unveal the return address of the transaction. For example I like to return spare change back to the user, how I can get his address?
 528 2013-03-21 03:15:19 <norn> if he previously payed to me
 529 2013-03-21 03:16:24 <Luke-Jr> norn: you can't, Bitcoin doesn't have "from" addresses
 530 2013-03-21 03:16:31 <Luke-Jr> nor return addresses
 531 2013-03-21 03:16:38 <BlueMatt> (yet)
 532 2013-03-21 03:16:46 <Luke-Jr> gavin's been working on a payment protocol to handle negotiating that
 533 2013-03-21 03:17:35 <norn> but what about satoshi dice? it returns bitcoins back if win?
 534 2013-03-21 03:17:53 <norn> how do they do it?
 535 2013-03-21 03:18:22 <Luke-Jr> SatoshiDice is "how to do everything wrong and attack Bitcoin at the same time"
 536 2013-03-21 03:18:33 <Diablo-D3> norn: SD sometimes DOES return the money to he wrong person
 537 2013-03-21 03:18:42 Detritus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 538 2013-03-21 03:18:52 hektor86z has joined
 539 2013-03-21 03:19:13 <doublec> norn: see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=138752.0
 540 2013-03-21 03:19:24 Detritus has joined
 541 2013-03-21 03:19:25 <doublec> norn: that explains why you shouldn't do it, but also covers how you can do it
 542 2013-03-21 03:19:30 Boydy has joined
 543 2013-03-21 03:20:02 <norn> i am not going t make satishidice clone (just to chill), but I am working on service which will return money back to sender if not all the money were used in some time interval
 544 2013-03-21 03:20:36 <Diablo-D3> norn: just ask them for their address and give them a unique address for them to send the money to
 545 2013-03-21 03:20:37 <norn> doublec, thx! I'll check
 546 2013-03-21 03:21:15 <doublec> norn: Diablo-D3's approach is the better one though
 547 2013-03-21 03:21:33 <doublec> norn: unless you like to handle support requests like "why haven't I got my money, is it lost?"
 548 2013-03-21 03:21:40 <BlueMatt> best is to wait until payment protocols are done
 549 2013-03-21 03:21:53 <norn> Diablo-D3, I agree, it's the simplest solution, but I wondering If I can avoid filling one more form
 550 2013-03-21 03:22:18 <Diablo-D3> not with how bitcoin works currently
 551 2013-03-21 03:22:23 <Diablo-D3> and its also how people expect it to work
 552 2013-03-21 03:22:26 <gfawkes> if i had some excess btc's i'd play some SD just to reward the creation of SD.
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 555 2013-03-21 03:24:41 <BlueMatt> which bitcoind thread starts and stops every ~30 seconds and only runs for <<1 second?
 556 2013-03-21 03:25:23 <norn> it seems like asking for the return address is the best solution for the moment... thanks for help guys!
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 582 2013-03-21 03:53:37 <BlueMatt> poll: should dnsseeds reject <0.8.0 after the block switch, and should they reject 0.8.0 now?
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 596 2013-03-21 04:00:49 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yes, after. Now— uh. No, because 0.8 will happily give the right chain if its longer— and if its not longer we have much bigger problems.
 597 2013-03-21 04:01:13 <BlueMatt> well, yea...ok
 598 2013-03-21 04:03:02 dermoth_ has joined
 599 2013-03-21 04:03:10 <dermoth_> Hi there
 600 2013-03-21 04:03:19 <dermoth_> Is there some doc about the private keys with compressed pubkey? something like https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_import_format would be great
 601 2013-03-21 04:03:39 <dermoth_> for the K & L keys
 602 2013-03-21 04:05:00 <dermoth_> they seem to decode the same way (according to checksum validation), but the decoded string is longer so I guess there is more processing afterwards
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 621 2013-03-21 04:25:28 <muhoo> wow, fireduck is like bitcoin's own _why http://img.1209k.com/00000000000000/hhtt-diagram-full.jpg
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 624 2013-03-21 04:27:40 <dermoth_> I dont see any cold storage in there...
 625 2013-03-21 04:29:40 <phantomcircuit> muhoo, that is a comically over designed system that i suspect would actually fair fairly regularly
 626 2013-03-21 04:29:49 AtashiCon has joined
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 628 2013-03-21 04:32:13 <dermoth_> the guy couldn't find slush's Stratum implementation so he wrote his own? Good for him if he got time for that... :)
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 631 2013-03-21 04:34:35 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: i pretty much agree with exactly what you said
 632 2013-03-21 04:34:35 <jrmithdobbs> ha
 633 2013-03-21 04:34:57 <jrmithdobbs> that doesn't look all that interesting
 634 2013-03-21 04:35:04 <jrmithdobbs> but it'll work!
 635 2013-03-21 04:36:42 Zertz has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 636 2013-03-21 04:38:22 <dermoth_> now I'm trying to recover from the fuchsia background on some 1209k.com pages - looking at it wasn't hard, however getting back to white is quite painful
 637 2013-03-21 04:39:19 Quazgaa has joined
 638 2013-03-21 04:39:48 <dermoth_> heck, now I'm waking up. Why is he using SNS to push to SQS?!?
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 643 2013-03-21 04:48:05 <doublec> dermoth_: for the guaranteed delivery. If it gets to SNS but SQS is down it'll keep retrying even if miner shuts down.
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 652 2013-03-21 05:06:35 <dermoth_> doublec, and what guaranteed you SNS availability? SQS is already supposed to be HA... whenever you use SQS or SNS, if the endpoint is down your messages won't be accepted. And although it shouldn't happen, if you can't connect for some reason you can always save the message locally and grab it when the endpoint is back up...
 653 2013-03-21 05:06:37 mortikia has joined
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 655 2013-03-21 05:08:11 <dermoth_> actually I do see a use for that, it's yo usre SNS as a "management" layer for your queues.
 656 2013-03-21 05:08:46 kerum has quit (Quit: Winning)
 657 2013-03-21 05:08:51 <dermoth_> but nothing you can't do by changing the code/config on the application directly
 658 2013-03-21 05:11:26 joey_meyer has joined
 659 2013-03-21 05:11:39 <doublec> dermoth_: I didn't design the system but I imagine there is one SQS but many SNS. So the miner uses the SNS local to them. If it goes down they use the other SNS.
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 662 2013-03-21 05:14:24 <dermoth_> yeah that's true, otherwise you'd have one SQS per region with the backend pulling from each region. I still think it could be quite easy to manage...
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 664 2013-03-21 05:15:12 <dermoth_> I grant him from an artistic point of view, the current design looks better ;)
 665 2013-03-21 05:15:19 <doublec> haha
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 670 2013-03-21 05:21:55 <jgarzik> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=49417.msg1650972#msg1650972
 671 2013-03-21 05:22:04 <jgarzik> <BTC Guild> At this time, I am not sure if Litecoin will be officially added.  After dealing with botnets this week, I'm cautious about adding Litecoin, which is about to become botnet heaven as a result of ASICs drastically raising the Bitcoin difficulty.  Once botnets realize Bitcoin isn't worth their time due to post-ASIC difficulty, you can be sure they're going to swarm Litecoin like locusts since it was designed a
 672 2013-03-21 05:22:04 <jgarzik> s CPU (BOTNET) friendly.
 673 2013-03-21 05:22:18 * jgarzik made the same prediction
 674 2013-03-21 05:23:59 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: for a really substantial part of litecoin's early life it was significantly power unprofitable to mine litecoin— I'd assumed that was due to botnets mining on free power.... though its more fashionable to speculate that it was early gpu miners driving up the difficulty.
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 678 2013-03-21 05:26:58 <warren> gmaxwell: the current litecoin pools are ddos attacked every week, it seems.
 679 2013-03-21 05:27:25 <gmaxwell> warren: that was the case a year ago for bitcoin
 680 2013-03-21 05:27:30 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
 681 2013-03-21 05:27:31 <warren> ah
 682 2013-03-21 05:30:04 john__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 683 2013-03-21 05:31:39 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: did you see my charts before on reorg sizes under different block selection policy? Made a bigger difference than I expected.
 684 2013-03-21 05:31:55 <Transisto> is there a modified bitcoind version that is optimised for high ressource dedicated nodes ?
 685 2013-03-21 05:32:38 <Transisto> after ~5 hours I only have 17 connections
 686 2013-03-21 05:33:19 <gmaxwell> Transisto: no, but if you really do have high resources you can crank up your max connection count some.
 687 2013-03-21 05:33:46 <gmaxwell> Transisto: I expect a good chunk of that 5 hours was pulling the chain, it doesn't announce itself until after it has pulled the chain.
 688 2013-03-21 05:34:06 <gmaxwell> 17 sounds a bit low, though if you're in a /16 with many other nodes you won't get as many connections.
 689 2013-03-21 05:34:14 <Transisto> I think it's 125 by default, setting it to 1000 ,,, I guess it'll improve over time
 690 2013-03-21 05:34:14 <gribble> Error: "," is not a valid command.
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 692 2013-03-21 05:34:22 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: it sounded like artificial scenario of two 50% miners ping-ponging, consistently making blocks within 10 seconds of each other.  If that is an accurate summary, did not seem applicable to real world.
 693 2013-03-21 05:34:36 <jgarzik> i.e. astronomically unlikely
 694 2013-03-21 05:34:38 <gmaxwell> Transisto: you probably shouldn't set it quite that high. You'll run yourself out of file descriptors.
 695 2013-03-21 05:36:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: No. It's an accurate simulation of two nodes with the normal 10 minute exponentially distributed block gaps, with 30 seconds of delay (latency, miner response, block processing, etc) between the two nodes.
 696 2013-03-21 05:36:28 john__ has joined
 697 2013-03-21 05:36:31 <Transisto> good thanks,,, I was so tired of having to close my client everytime for cause of 100% upload utilisation.  Hope someone manage to add upload throttleing soon
 698 2013-03-21 05:36:31 <gribble> Error: "," is not a valid command.
 699 2013-03-21 05:37:49 AtashiCon has joined
 700 2013-03-21 05:37:59 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'd simulate with more nodes, but its actually a huge pain in the ass to write code for and I probably wasted 45 minutes just on the two.
 701 2013-03-21 05:39:03 paybitcoin has joined
 702 2013-03-21 05:39:24 <gmaxwell> Transisto: I'm confused! if you're trying to prevent resource utilization you should be disabling listening not increasing your connection count!
 703 2013-03-21 05:40:20 <Transisto> I was wondering if my desktop couln't handle the thing, maybe the network would benefits from a VPS node
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 710 2013-03-21 05:47:21 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: stalemate, then.  :)  Moving on.
 711 2013-03-21 05:47:27 <jgarzik> SD now requires a confirmation?
 712 2013-03-21 05:47:29 <jgarzik> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77870.msg1636243#msg1636243
 713 2013-03-21 05:48:40 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
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 716 2013-03-21 05:53:10 <[Tycho]> We don't need to place "/P2SH/" in the coinbase anymore ?
 717 2013-03-21 05:53:33 Quazgaa has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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 719 2013-03-21 05:56:03 <jgarzik> [Tycho]: not AFAICT
 720 2013-03-21 05:56:11 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: nope, no need to now.
 721 2013-03-21 05:56:16 <jgarzik> [Tycho]: are you implementing v2 blocks?
 722 2013-03-21 05:56:30 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 723 2013-03-21 05:56:48 <[Tycho]> My blocks are already v2. Is there something wrong with it ?
 724 2013-03-21 05:58:29 <doublec> [Tycho]: http://blockorigin.pfoe.be says they aren't
 725 2013-03-21 05:59:09 <doublec> [Tycho]: this is showing a v1 block 000000000000015f5319495f81a6ca0c2e5afcc58b025e9554b7ce70a71e652d
 726 2013-03-21 05:59:20 <doublec> [Tycho]: but is one of yours?
 727 2013-03-21 05:59:24 <[Tycho]> https://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/0000000000000254360830fa83d93abc8dd32258dd9128df70ad8b9e52c9bf0a
 728 2013-03-21 06:00:00 <[Tycho]> I switched tonight.
 729 2013-03-21 06:00:26 <[Tycho]> I was the last one to do so ?
 730 2013-03-21 06:01:54 <doublec> ah ok, makes sense
 731 2013-03-21 06:02:02 <doublec> [Tycho]: some pools are still producing them
 732 2013-03-21 06:02:10 <doublec> [Tycho]: you might be enough to push it to a majority
 733 2013-03-21 06:02:35 <[Tycho]> Also, as I see now, blockorigin shows some of my blocks as "Unknown"
 734 2013-03-21 06:04:09 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
 735 2013-03-21 06:04:18 <doublec> [Tycho]: I think they delay stats
 736 2013-03-21 06:04:26 <doublec> kinlo would know
 737 2013-03-21 06:05:59 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
 738 2013-03-21 06:06:07 <[Tycho]> Good.
 739 2013-03-21 06:06:30 Quazgaa has joined
 740 2013-03-21 06:07:07 <[Tycho]> I received two e-mails from some random persons asking about v2 blocks, so it seems that someone is making some PR somewhere...
 741 2013-03-21 06:08:12 <doublec> most of the v1 blocks are coming from pools getwork/merge mining servers. A couple have plans to shut them down. When that happens the 95% will probably hit.
 742 2013-03-21 06:08:21 <doublec> which would have been bad for deepbit if they were still on v1
 743 2013-03-21 06:08:53 <[Tycho]> I tried to check blockchain.info, but they have no chart on this matter :)
 744 2013-03-21 06:10:52 <jgarzik> [Tycho]: Thanks for handling the issue.  Deepbit was the last of the Big Boys to be producing v1 blocks, I think.
 745 2013-03-21 06:11:05 <doublec> I was making a mistake with my v2 coinbase's and they were invalid. The 75% switch on for that validation rule burnt me.
 746 2013-03-21 06:11:31 <jgarzik> doublec: off-by-one?
 747 2013-03-21 06:11:53 <doublec> jgarzik: no, my merge mining code was putting the blockheight in in some circumstances
 748 2013-03-21 06:12:17 <doublec> I messed up a merge at some point and just carried it through
 749 2013-03-21 06:12:21 <[Tycho]> Namecoins are mostly abandoned ?
 750 2013-03-21 06:12:23 joey_meyer has joined
 751 2013-03-21 06:12:35 <doublec> [Tycho]: there's a few diehard supporters :)
 752 2013-03-21 06:13:00 <doublec> jgarzik: erm, "not" putting the blockheight in I mean
 753 2013-03-21 06:13:12 <[Tycho]> That was a nice idea. The only altcoins that make sence.
 754 2013-03-21 06:14:08 <doublec> There's still development discussion going on about it. I think it's just idling at the moment though.
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 756 2013-03-21 06:14:41 <[Tycho]> I wonder who did this with USD/BTC rate...
 757 2013-03-21 06:15:37 <[Tycho]> Also, it's a sad thing that DB layer causes interoperation problems.
 758 2013-03-21 06:16:50 <doublec> yes. good demonstration of how such situations can be dealt with though.
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 760 2013-03-21 06:17:26 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: interestingly it turns out that the bitcoinj full node support had a vaguely similar problem too.
 761 2013-03-21 06:17:49 <gmaxwell> (in that case the database layer has timeouts and sufficiently large reorgs trigger them)
 762 2013-03-21 06:18:08 * [Tycho] lost lots of blocks because of the reorg.
 763 2013-03-21 06:19:07 <[Tycho]> I did some experiments with switching from BDB to another database, but if there will be some incompatible bugs it will cause problems again. No fun :(
 764 2013-03-21 06:20:25 cads has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 765 2013-03-21 06:22:57 <keystroke> [Tycho] which pool do you run?
 766 2013-03-21 06:23:18 <[Tycho]> :)
 767 2013-03-21 06:23:20 <[Tycho]> Deepbit
 768 2013-03-21 06:23:42 <keystroke> cool :)
 769 2013-03-21 06:23:48 <keystroke> wow so you switched to version 2.. excellent
 770 2013-03-21 06:23:50 <[Tycho]> I need to regain some hashrate share or everyone will forget me :)
 771 2013-03-21 06:24:04 <keystroke> if BTC Guild stops non-stratum it should put us over to v2 i guess
 772 2013-03-21 06:24:06 <keystroke> haha
 773 2013-03-21 06:24:08 JDuke128 has joined
 774 2013-03-21 06:24:21 <keystroke> yea what ever caused your hashrate to drop?
 775 2013-03-21 06:24:24 realazthat has joined
 776 2013-03-21 06:24:36 <keystroke> you run 0.3.x?
 777 2013-03-21 06:26:08 <[Tycho]> keystroke: I think it may be related to "ASIC compatibilty" PR of other pools.
 778 2013-03-21 06:26:13 <[Tycho]> Yes.
 779 2013-03-21 06:26:24 <doublec> keystroke: ozcoin is stopping theirs on the weekend
 780 2013-03-21 06:26:32 <keystroke> why such an old version [Tycho]?
 781 2013-03-21 06:26:42 <[Tycho]> keystroke: why not ?
 782 2013-03-21 06:27:01 <keystroke> it confuses the graphs on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures# :P
 783 2013-03-21 06:27:33 <[Tycho]> It's heavily customized and backported patches are applied.
 784 2013-03-21 06:27:50 <keystroke> haha yea i figured :)
 785 2013-03-21 06:28:12 <keystroke> nah was just curious, makes sense with all the customization
 786 2013-03-21 06:28:57 <[Tycho]> Maybe I'll switch to my own node software.
 787 2013-03-21 06:29:57 <doublec> are there any miners that don't use bitcoind at all?
 788 2013-03-21 06:30:12 <[Tycho]> Yes, surely.
 789 2013-03-21 06:30:43 <keystroke> wasn't there one that didn't include transactions for awhile?
 790 2013-03-21 06:30:44 <[Tycho]> I mean just pool users, not pool owners :)
 791 2013-03-21 06:30:56 <keystroke> although that could have been modified bitcoind...
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 801 2013-03-21 06:47:47 <[Tycho]> "830 out of the latest 1000 blocks on version 2 (83.00%)" - looks like Deepbit is not enough for supermajority :):)
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 804 2013-03-21 06:50:36 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
 805 2013-03-21 06:54:45 <realazthat> hey, so I am writing a bitcoin-script emulator, I am wondering if there are test scripts I can run it on
 806 2013-03-21 06:55:44 <kerum> scripts related to what?
 807 2013-03-21 06:55:52 <realazthat> er
 808 2013-03-21 06:55:57 <realazthat> the scripts that are part of the protocol
 809 2013-03-21 06:56:32 <kerum> try testnet
 810 2013-03-21 06:56:55 <kerum> jgarzik ^^
 811 2013-03-21 06:57:14 <sivu> i think realaz is looking for suite of testscripts for unittesting
 812 2013-03-21 06:57:16 <gmaxwell> realazthat: the unit tests in bitcoin include many tests, and there are many mined into the testnet chain.
 813 2013-03-21 06:57:26 <realazthat> oh ok cool
 814 2013-03-21 06:57:34 <realazthat> I'll check both of them out
 815 2013-03-21 06:57:47 <realazthat> is there a blk download for the testnet somewhere?
 816 2013-03-21 06:59:30 <kerum> start bitcoind with -testnet
 817 2013-03-21 06:59:59 <realazthat> where does the data go
 818 2013-03-21 07:00:10 <sivu> own folder
 819 2013-03-21 07:00:13 <kerum> in your datadir
 820 2013-03-21 07:00:50 <kerum> in /bitcoin/testnet3
 821 2013-03-21 07:00:58 <kerum> or something...
 822 2013-03-21 07:01:00 <realazthat> ok
 823 2013-03-21 07:01:06 <realazthat> I'll figure it out, ty
 824 2013-03-21 07:01:11 <kerum> np
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 839 2013-03-21 07:20:00 <realazthat> kerum: any hint on how large the testnet is?
 840 2013-03-21 07:20:16 <sivu> not very
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 842 2013-03-21 07:20:42 <sivu> 61270 blocks
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 845 2013-03-21 07:21:57 <realazthat> yeah but how much does that translate to in bytes
 846 2013-03-21 07:22:02 <realazthat> prolly small blocks?
 847 2013-03-21 07:22:42 <sivu> <100megs
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 849 2013-03-21 07:23:30 <realazthat> ok cool
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 860 2013-03-21 07:35:48 <realazthat> ok so I am trying to figure out OP_CHECKSIG
 861 2013-03-21 07:36:08 <realazthat> I am reading https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKSIG#How_it_works
 862 2013-03-21 07:36:16 <realazthat> "The sig is deleted from subScript."
 863 2013-03-21 07:36:31 <realazthat> is that as crazy as it sounds ? :P
 864 2013-03-21 07:37:00 <realazthat> do I just find/replace it?
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 878 2013-03-21 07:51:32 <eeeee> aa
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 880 2013-03-21 07:52:03 <eeeee> a
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 882 2013-03-21 07:52:29 <muhoo> it's a stack
 883 2013-03-21 07:53:49 <ashod>  what
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 946 2013-03-21 08:34:29 <jrmithdobbs> shut up
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 972 2013-03-21 08:37:13 <Nothing4You> hey there, is there a reason (other than just nobody implemented it yet) why bitcoin-qt doesn't have a copy txid in the context menu in tx overview?
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 976 2013-03-21 08:38:59 <weex> Nothing4You: probably not
 977 2013-03-21 08:39:10 <weex> can't imagine that option would be overly confusing
 978 2013-03-21 08:40:00 <Nothing4You> i think i'll write a pullreq later then
 979 2013-03-21 08:40:01 <[Tycho]> Yes, copying tx hash would be gread
 980 2013-03-21 08:40:05 <[Tycho]> *t
 981 2013-03-21 08:40:42 <Diablo-D3> are we getting a lot of blocks recently?
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 983 2013-03-21 08:41:03 <Nothing4You> looks like it
 984 2013-03-21 08:41:14 <[Tycho]> I like blocks.
 985 2013-03-21 08:41:32 <weex> 7 in 24 minutes
 986 2013-03-21 08:42:50 <Diablo-D3> lol Im watching the blockchain.info live feed
 987 2013-03-21 08:42:57 <Diablo-D3> sd, sd, sd, sd, sd....
 988 2013-03-21 08:43:07 <Nothing4You> did you really expect something else?
 989 2013-03-21 08:43:19 <weex> Diablo-D3: you jelly bro?
 990 2013-03-21 08:43:28 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: DP, DP, DP, DP, DP...
 991 2013-03-21 08:43:30 <jrmithdobbs> get it right
 992 2013-03-21 08:43:34 <Diablo-D3> weex: of what?
 993 2013-03-21 08:43:37 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: lol
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 995 2013-03-21 08:43:56 <weex> Diablo-D3: not your service
 996 2013-03-21 08:44:08 <Diablo-D3> weex: also not my prison time.
 997 2013-03-21 08:44:13 <weex> heh
 998 2013-03-21 08:45:20 <zebedee_> We're going to > 6m difficulty without hitting anything in the 5millions it looks like.
 999 2013-03-21 08:46:17 <zebedee_> Simplified payment verification: this is a little vague in the whitepaper, but the use case is looking to see if a payment has been received right? Like a merchant would do.  It's not about knowing if that payment has since been respent, correct?
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1006 2013-03-21 08:52:31 <weex> zebedee_: spv is supposed to be a node that doesn't use the entire blockchain to validate a transaction but can still fully validate
1007 2013-03-21 08:55:14 <realazthat> nvm, I think this (https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png) explains it pretty well
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1009 2013-03-21 09:03:05 <zebedee_> weex: Really?  What would the procedure be, on receiving a new block then?  You need to check all prior inputs, say N of them across the block.  Are you saying we request N merkle branches from the network?  How do we know that those inputs haven't been double-spent a few blocks earlier?
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1012 2013-03-21 09:04:12 <zebedee_> Reading the paper I think the intent is for a merchant to verify that a payment to him has happened.  I'm not 100% sure though.
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1015 2013-03-21 09:07:11 <zebedee_> Or is the idea that merkle branches are always pruned, so if it were double spent there would no longer be a merkle branch to it?
1016 2013-03-21 09:07:27 <Diablo-D3> did some giant farm turn on somewhere?
1017 2013-03-21 09:08:03 <Diablo-D3> 6 blocks in the past 14 minutes
1018 2013-03-21 09:09:46 <zebedee_> Diablo-D3: short-term there isn't a block space problem :)  It's deferred for a few weeks....
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1029 2013-03-21 09:17:59 <cads> does BTC value strongly correlate with hash rate?
1030 2013-03-21 09:18:36 <Diablo-D3> no.
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1032 2013-03-21 09:20:06 <cads> Diablo-D3: since when do yes or no answers get credit?
1033 2013-03-21 09:20:24 <Diablo-D3> since when do I care about credit?
1034 2013-03-21 09:20:25 <cads> Diablo-D3: -1
1035 2013-03-21 09:20:34 <cads> Diablo-D3: -2 :P
1036 2013-03-21 09:20:44 <cads> since always :)
1037 2013-03-21 09:20:52 <cads> humans always do.
1038 2013-03-21 09:21:28 <ashod> is there a wyay to get the details of a transaction by index ?
1039 2013-03-21 09:23:26 jdnavarro has joined
1040 2013-03-21 09:23:56 <cads> Diablo-D3: heh, though I did mean to ask that question in #bitcoin proper
1041 2013-03-21 09:23:57 <ashod> anyone ?
1042 2013-03-21 09:24:03 <cads> -3s himself :(
1043 2013-03-21 09:24:06 <weex> neither difficulty nor mtgox price are historical secrets, tell us what you find
1044 2013-03-21 09:24:11 <jrmithdobbs> cads: the market has actually been completely antithetical to hash power increases many times in the past
1045 2013-03-21 09:24:14 <jrmithdobbs> so his answer was correct
1046 2013-03-21 09:24:21 <jrmithdobbs> whether you like the brevity or not
1047 2013-03-21 09:24:56 <cads> jrmithdobbs: do we know what the asics will mean for the value of the BTC?
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1049 2013-03-21 09:25:12 <cads> (takes this to #bitcoin)
1050 2013-03-21 09:25:18 <jrmithdobbs> they will have little to no direct effect would be my prediction
1051 2013-03-21 09:25:25 <jrmithdobbs> but anything re: that is pure speculation until it happens
1052 2013-03-21 09:26:16 <ashod> is there a way using the api to get the details of say, the 132,333th transaction that happened on bitcoin since the first transaction ?
1053 2013-03-21 09:27:08 <jrmithdobbs> no
1054 2013-03-21 09:27:19 <ashod> jrmithdobbs - is that no to me ?
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1057 2013-03-21 09:28:04 <lianj> is there a blk0002.dat like Luke-Jr did for 1
1058 2013-03-21 09:28:17 pete92 has joined
1059 2013-03-21 09:29:58 <ashod> so is there a way ?
1060 2013-03-21 09:31:08 <lianj> no
1061 2013-03-21 09:31:30 <ashod> why not ?
1062 2013-03-21 09:31:42 <lianj> why would you need it
1063 2013-03-21 09:32:52 <ashod> for logging , anything -
1064 2013-03-21 09:32:56 <ashod> why isnt it possible ?
1065 2013-03-21 09:33:10 bakingbread has joined
1066 2013-03-21 09:33:24 <lianj> its possible. its just not in there because its not needed and useless
1067 2013-03-21 09:34:11 <ashod> it might be useful for someone else -
1068 2013-03-21 09:34:21 <ashod> so do you know how it's possible ? -
1069 2013-03-21 09:34:46 <ashod> how would you go about finding out,  how many bitcoins were transferred for transaction #1832323
1070 2013-03-21 09:35:14 <lianj> where this this going? its useless
1071 2013-03-21 09:36:05 <lianj> transaction have an id. its stupid to reference them by index
1072 2013-03-21 09:36:16 <ashod> why are you saying it's useless -
1073 2013-03-21 09:36:30 <ashod> it's kind of arrogant
1074 2013-03-21 09:36:41 <lianj> haha
1075 2013-03-21 09:36:48 <lianj> just say a use for it
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1079 2013-03-21 09:37:43 <ashod> how do you know what app someone wants to build one day , and what is needed for it - how can you fortell something is useless - it's bizzare
1080 2013-03-21 09:38:07 <ashod> anyway - do you know how to ? - just for arguments sake.. -
1081 2013-03-21 09:38:46 <ashod> ok here is a use
1082 2013-03-21 09:38:58 <lianj> how to get the tx index of a tx in the mainchain?
1083 2013-03-21 09:40:01 <ashod> a historical log of every transaction that happens on bitcoin in sequential order,, and one day for legal reasons, someone needs to know what transaction amount was placed..
1084 2013-03-21 09:40:05 kermit_ has joined
1085 2013-03-21 09:40:32 <ashod> ok have you heard , that once someone sold a pizza for 10,000 btc on bitcoin ? - i read this somewhere
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1087 2013-03-21 09:41:15 <lianj> once its in a block, the tx is ordered in that block, blocks itself are ordered aswell, not hard to make this (still useless) global tx index value
1088 2013-03-21 09:41:33 <ashod> fuck -
1089 2013-03-21 09:41:37 <ashod> again with the useless
1090 2013-03-21 09:42:07 <cads> hey guys, could we do this for the biggest accounts in the block tree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_02QGsHzEQ
1091 2013-03-21 09:42:21 <lianj> for bitcoind it is. if you want to implement it in your own software go ahead. step all blocks, and all txs in it. index values done
1092 2013-03-21 09:42:56 <cads> ie, could we use a system of smart particles to animate the history of the BTC network and its transactions?
1093 2013-03-21 09:44:00 skeledrew has joined
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1095 2013-03-21 09:44:35 <cads> gource itself is gpl'ed, so it may be possible to use a variation of its existing metaphor to visualize out own data.
1096 2013-03-21 09:45:13 <cads> I think it would be gorgeous, and not impossible to code
1097 2013-03-21 09:45:44 <kermit_> unbelievable
1098 2013-03-21 09:45:46 <kermit_> 66.5
1099 2013-03-21 09:46:23 <ashod> 66.5 ? - not good
1100 2013-03-21 09:47:10 Tritonio1 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1101 2013-03-21 09:47:23 <ashod> it needs to come down, otherwise bitcoin might die before it ever really takes off
1102 2013-03-21 09:47:43 <cads> ashod: why?
1103 2013-03-21 09:47:43 <weex> bitcoin might die??!1
1104 2013-03-21 09:47:51 <weex> how do we save it!
1105 2013-03-21 09:47:55 guruvan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1107 2013-03-21 09:48:13 Tritonio has joined
1108 2013-03-21 09:48:26 <weex> ashod: sell all your coins. it's the only way.
1109 2013-03-21 09:48:44 <cads> ashod: you mean people might permanently distrust bitcoin after this bubble bursts, instead of a forever free money yielding cycle of boom and bust perpetual motion?!
1110 2013-03-21 09:49:01 <weex> -dev is turning into #bitcoin
1111 2013-03-21 09:49:07 <cads> yeah it's terrible
1112 2013-03-21 09:49:24 <weex> what does price have to do with development?
1113 2013-03-21 09:49:30 <cads> I try to ask an actual coding question and people are quoting stuff :)
1114 2013-03-21 09:49:45 <ashod> nothing, technically its a masterpiece
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1117 2013-03-21 09:52:04 <iwilcox> Perhaps there needs to be an invite-only to get rid of fuckwits like me, or a #bitcoin-no-really-dev
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1123 2013-03-21 10:01:19 <digitalmagus> hi.
1124 2013-03-21 10:01:20 <digitalmagus> Hey how can I view the content of the blockchain file? It's not clear text
1125 2013-03-21 10:01:39 <digitalmagus> I'm using linux, when I tail, it's all gobedygook (sp?)
1126 2013-03-21 10:01:56 <[Tycho]> What do you want to see ?
1127 2013-03-21 10:02:04 <digitalmagus> network hash rates
1128 2013-03-21 10:02:07 <digitalmagus> over time
1129 2013-03-21 10:02:26 ashod has quit ()
1130 2013-03-21 10:03:13 <kermit_> !ticker
1131 2013-03-21 10:03:15 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 66.67191, Best ask: 66.99000, Bid-ask spread: 0.31809, Last trade: 66.99000, 24 hour volume: 91526.57284089, 24 hour low: 58.80000, 24 hour high: 66.99000, 24 hour vwap: 63.57816
1132 2013-03-21 10:03:20 <peawormsworth> digitalmagus: u prob want to read this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list.
1133 2013-03-21 10:03:33 <digitalmagus> Ah need to API ok. Thanks.
1134 2013-03-21 10:03:43 <kermit_> hey thanks
1135 2013-03-21 10:03:48 <kermit_> API thing
1136 2013-03-21 10:04:15 <kermit_> can someone point me to the process where bitcoin aquires node, I am trying to find it in the wiki and the source
1137 2013-03-21 10:04:27 <kermit_> acuires p2p node,
1138 2013-03-21 10:04:50 <kermit_> I am putting together  a cheat sheet
1139 2013-03-21 10:05:12 <peawormsworth> iwilcox: I think ur idea is ideal. there should be a channel for users of the software and merchant programmers (software users), because #bitcoin is too chatty. And this is specific to development.
1140 2013-03-21 10:05:28 <peawormsworth> something in the middle of bitcoin and bitcoin-dev
1141 2013-03-21 10:06:29 <iwilcox> Ultimately it's just a casualty of Bitcoin's popularity.  If you can't ask questions for the noise, you'll try the quieter channel.  Perhaps more channels just doesn't help.
1142 2013-03-21 10:07:21 <iwilcox> I reckon -dev should just voice only people who've contributed, and there should be -tech
1143 2013-03-21 10:07:27 <kermit_> I think the nature of IRC is just what it is
1144 2013-03-21 10:07:31 <iwilcox> My $0.02
1145 2013-03-21 10:07:36 <epscy> !tickeruk
1146 2013-03-21 10:07:37 <gribble> BTCGBP ticker | Best bid: 44.68357, Best ask: 45.36276, Bid-ask spread: 0.67919, Last trade: 45.36276, 24 hour volume: 2611.80553072, 24 hour low: 39.50000, 24 hour high: 45.36953, 24 hour vwap: 43.36164
1147 2013-03-21 10:07:45 <epscy> look at that spread
1148 2013-03-21 10:07:53 <kermit_> volatile
1149 2013-03-21 10:07:55 <epscy> nearly 70p
1150 2013-03-21 10:08:51 <kermit_> How does bitcoin bootstraps the looup of p2p network nodes?
1151 2013-03-21 10:09:04 <epscy> kermit_: several methods
1152 2013-03-21 10:09:19 <epscy> dns, some hard coded addresses of nodes
1153 2013-03-21 10:10:57 <peawormsworth> kermit_: there is some good discussion from a developer of bitcoin here: http://omegataupodcast.net/2011/03/59-bitcoin-a-digital-decentralized-currency/
1154 2013-03-21 10:10:57 <peawormsworth> There is basic discussion of that process in the podcast.
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1165 2013-03-21 10:17:04 <kermit_> epscy, I know, I read about it once
1166 2013-03-21 10:17:12 <kermit_> thanks peawormsworth
1167 2013-03-21 10:17:18 <kermit_> thanks epscy
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1171 2013-03-21 10:19:56 <peawormsworth> kermit_: I opened a channel #bitcoin-tech. Im welcome any questions about using bitcoind or bitcoin-qt or other stuff like merchant integration.
1172 2013-03-21 10:20:23 kermit_ has joined
1173 2013-03-21 10:20:24 <peawormsworth> I warn u that I know next to nothing, but Im interesting in learning with anyone who wants to post questions there.
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1178 2013-03-21 10:26:01 <kermit_> I dont like that link
1179 2013-03-21 10:27:25 <kermit_> I am not interested in a keynesian viewpoint of bitcoin from some coolaidrinker, I was asking for how the BC client bootstraps and finds p2p nodes
1180 2013-03-21 10:27:27 B0g4r7 has joined
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1184 2013-03-21 10:31:17 <peawormsworth> kermit_: ur mistaken about the viewpoints in that talk. but i do have additional info for u over in #bitcoin-tech channel.
1185 2013-03-21 10:32:50 <kermit_> peawormsworth: lets restrict this to coding, i am seriously not interested in being schooled (lol) in economics
1186 2013-03-21 10:33:46 Nothing4You has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1187 2013-03-21 10:34:07 <kermit_> Can someone bootstrap me and point me a link (whatever) on how the clients finds p2p nodes?
1188 2013-03-21 10:36:21 ikbenwouter has joined
1189 2013-03-21 10:36:51 <grazs> kermit_: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Satoshi_Client_Node_Discovery have you read this?
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1192 2013-03-21 10:39:05 <kermit_> Thanks, that might be what i was looking for
1193 2013-03-21 10:40:40 <kermit_> I am interested in IRC bootstrapping,...,
1194 2013-03-21 10:40:56 <kermit_> but the network used (quake, freenode ) is not listed
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1197 2013-03-21 10:41:50 <jouke> kermit_: irc bootstrapping is disabled by default in the latest clients afaik
1198 2013-03-21 10:42:16 <kermit_> ok
1199 2013-03-21 10:42:26 <kermit_> i can read
1200 2013-03-21 10:42:31 <kermit_> but is it still used?
1201 2013-03-21 10:43:11 <jouke> If you can read, open that linked irc.cpp and search for the server that it connects to
1202 2013-03-21 10:43:23 <jouke> and if you can read, read the configuration options.
1203 2013-03-21 10:43:52 <kermit_> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Network#Bootstrapping
1204 2013-03-21 10:45:58 <kermit_> Its clear
1205 2013-03-21 10:45:59 <kermit_>         CService addrConnect("92.243.23.21", 6667); // irc.lfnet.org          CService addrIRC("irc.lfnet.org", 6667, true);
1206 2013-03-21 10:46:03 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1207 2013-03-21 10:46:08 <kermit_> irc.lfnet.org
1208 2013-03-21 10:46:36 i2pRelay has joined
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1214 2013-03-21 10:52:20 <iwilcox> Guess you could join those channels and see.
1215 2013-03-21 10:52:37 <iwilcox> I expect old clients are still using it just fine to get peers.
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1220 2013-03-21 10:56:04 <iwilcox> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html
1221 2013-03-21 10:56:24 <iwilcox> ~3% using versions with the IRC code still present.
1222 2013-03-21 10:57:36 Internet13 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1223 2013-03-21 10:57:58 <kermit_> iwilcox thanks
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1227 2013-03-21 10:59:04 <kermit_> nice chart, where did you get that data?
1228 2013-03-21 10:59:27 <kermit_> how is it possible to acquire this info, it is from the blockchain?
1229 2013-03-21 10:59:48 Nothing4You has quit (Client Quit)
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1232 2013-03-21 11:00:10 <iwilcox> It's Luke-Jr's work.  I'm guessing he just raises the minimum number of peers to sillyhigh.  Clients announce version upon connect.
1233 2013-03-21 11:00:39 <iwilcox> Could be wrong, it might just be the distribution in the eligius pool.
1234 2013-03-21 11:00:43 <kermit_> iwilcox, so you are saying Luke-jr tried to sample the network to get some feel for statistics
1235 2013-03-21 11:00:57 <kermit_> by connectiong to a shitload of nodes
1236 2013-03-21 11:01:03 <iwilcox> You'd have to ask him, but it's the best statistic I've seen so far on client versions.
1237 2013-03-21 11:02:06 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1238 2013-03-21 11:02:15 <kermit_> mmm,  it looks nice, but does it refelct "reality" in some way?
1239 2013-03-21 11:02:30 <kermit_> ok will do,
1240 2013-03-21 11:02:42 i2pRelay has joined
1241 2013-03-21 11:03:27 sgornick has joined
1242 2013-03-21 11:04:51 <kermit_> How do I get in contact with luke jr?
1243 2013-03-21 11:05:16 <kinlo> he's on irc
1244 2013-03-21 11:05:20 <Nothing4You> it's Luke-Jr, wait for him to be here and then ask him
1245 2013-03-21 11:05:54 <kinlo> anyway
1246 2013-03-21 11:05:55 <Diablo-D3> yeah
1247 2013-03-21 11:05:58 <jouke> Luke-Jr is useing some sort of crawler to gather that information.
1248 2013-03-21 11:06:00 <Diablo-D3> hes usually here
1249 2013-03-21 11:06:03 <kinlo> clients sent their "version"package
1250 2013-03-21 11:06:04 Internet13 has joined
1251 2013-03-21 11:06:08 <kinlo> packet*
1252 2013-03-21 11:06:14 <kermit_> ok
1253 2013-03-21 11:06:17 <kinlo> which is distributed trough the entire p2p network
1254 2013-03-21 11:06:24 <kinlo> so each node knows about every other node
1255 2013-03-21 11:06:36 <kermit_> so
1256 2013-03-21 11:06:42 <kermit_> let me get this straight
1257 2013-03-21 11:06:46 <kinlo> it's then stored in the peers.dat file, so if you restart the client, it has a huge database of clients to connect to
1258 2013-03-21 11:07:11 <kermit_> all nodes in the network know about (or try to know) all other nodes in the network
1259 2013-03-21 11:07:13 <kermit_> all  of them
1260 2013-03-21 11:07:20 <kinlo> that's basicly how every p2p program works, there is no central server to connect to, you just need to try a few old nodes to see which ones are still online
1261 2013-03-21 11:07:35 <kinlo> so to do so, you store all nodes in a file
1262 2013-03-21 11:08:00 <kermit_> ok,.., I did study on torrent network, but it was only possible to know neighbours via torrents
1263 2013-03-21 11:08:19 <kinlo> kermit_: torrents are completly different, they have a central server (the tracker)
1264 2013-03-21 11:08:29 nus- has joined
1265 2013-03-21 11:08:30 <Nothing4You> DHT is without tracker
1266 2013-03-21 11:08:35 <kermit_> ok...
1267 2013-03-21 11:08:44 <kinlo> yes but DHT can be bootstrapped by using a tracker
1268 2013-03-21 11:08:57 <kermit_> yes yes
1269 2013-03-21 11:09:00 <kinlo> in any case, it's better to compare it with something like gnutella or something
1270 2013-03-21 11:09:09 <kermit_> but bitcoin works differently?
1271 2013-03-21 11:09:18 <kermit_> it just knows all the nodes
1272 2013-03-21 11:09:26 <kermit_> ?
1273 2013-03-21 11:09:34 <kinlo> yep, it just knows and uses that list to try to reconnect to the network
1274 2013-03-21 11:09:48 <kinlo> there are some bootstrap methods such as irc if it has no list
1275 2013-03-21 11:10:01 <kermit_> this is very cool, so the network cannot be balcanized or parts hidden
1276 2013-03-21 11:10:03 <kinlo> but that's only for initial connecting to the network
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1278 2013-03-21 11:10:10 <kermit_> by having some pathways disconnect
1279 2013-03-21 11:10:15 <kermit_> very cool, ok
1280 2013-03-21 11:10:16 <kinlo> the network has hidden nodes
1281 2013-03-21 11:10:24 xtor_ has joined
1282 2013-03-21 11:10:33 <kinlo> you can configure your node not to transmit it's ip/version to other nodes
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1286 2013-03-21 11:10:56 <kinlo> so you will need to set up your connections manually in that case
1287 2013-03-21 11:11:03 <kinlo> but that's the exeption rather then rule
1288 2013-03-21 11:11:30 <kermit_> kinlo, aha, ok, so your node not transmitting ip/version would make it not relay new blocks etc etc
1289 2013-03-21 11:11:41 <kinlo> so luke's numbers are by definition wrong, as it does contain those nodes
1290 2013-03-21 11:12:03 randy-waterhouse has left ("Freedom.")
1291 2013-03-21 11:12:03 <kinlo> kermit_: relaying blocks is not relevant here, a hidden node can still relay blocks
1292 2013-03-21 11:12:17 <kinlo> as it does not* contain those nodes
1293 2013-03-21 11:12:17 <kermit_> yes indeed, I just thought of that
1294 2013-03-21 11:12:24 <kermit_> disjoint functionality
1295 2013-03-21 11:12:29 <kinlo> but in any case, those hidden nodes - there aren't many of them
1296 2013-03-21 11:13:02 <kermit_> how do you know if a node is hidden, because it refuses to reveil its  version?
1297 2013-03-21 11:13:10 <kinlo> the only difference between those nodes and regular nodes is that people will not connect to those hidden nodes by themselves, and you will need to make sure they are connected manually
1298 2013-03-21 11:13:11 <kermit_> thats the indicator?
1299 2013-03-21 11:13:32 joey_meyer has joined
1300 2013-03-21 11:13:46 <kermit_> hidden nodes dont have incomming connections
1301 2013-03-21 11:13:46 <kinlo> it wont broadcast on the network "I'm here" basicly
1302 2013-03-21 11:13:50 <kermit_> that much is cler
1303 2013-03-21 11:13:57 <kermit_> ok,..,
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1305 2013-03-21 11:14:03 <kermit_> clear*
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1307 2013-03-21 11:14:24 <kinlo> hidden nodes can have incomming connections, you will just have to configure another node to connect to it, coz the network doesn't know about it and will not connect to it manually
1308 2013-03-21 11:14:29 <kinlo> eh
1309 2013-03-21 11:14:31 <kinlo> automatically*
1310 2013-03-21 11:14:38 <kinlo> what's up with my typing today :p
1311 2013-03-21 11:14:45 <kermit_> on faCE value i must say, this is a very robust setup
1312 2013-03-21 11:15:12 <kinlo> anyway, forget the hidden nodes, that's only used for stuff like hot wallets, by a minority
1313 2013-03-21 11:15:45 <kermit_> I will copy paste that word "hot wallets" will look into that later
1314 2013-03-21 11:16:43 <kermit_> Thanks for your concern, I would love to speak with Luke-jr about the code he made to generate that chart,.., I gues via ip you could find location of these nodes
1315 2013-03-21 11:18:03 <kinlo> oh, just a term to indicate that if you have an automated system that gives bitcoins to users, you will not keep all coins on the server so in case of a hack you won't loose all coins.  you store the bulk of coins offline, in a "cold" wallet, and keep a few coins on the server in a "hot" wallet so the server can work as it should, except when a large amount of coins need to be transferred
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1429 2013-03-21 12:46:52 <Sealy> devs, i'd appreciate any input: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155935.0
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1432 2013-03-21 12:47:11 <Sealy> surely somebody has already done this ^ (listing nodes by country/territory)
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1437 2013-03-21 12:51:24 <Graet> http://blockchain.info/nodes-globe like that?
1438 2013-03-21 12:51:28 <Graet> or less flashy?
1439 2013-03-21 12:51:29 <Graet> :)
1440 2013-03-21 12:51:39 <Sealy> yeah i linked that in my post Graet
1441 2013-03-21 12:51:46 <Graet> ahh ok :)
1442 2013-03-21 12:51:49 <Sealy> just a list i can throw into excel would be good
1443 2013-03-21 12:51:57 <Sealy> thats exactly what i'm after but yeah in table format
1444 2013-03-21 12:52:12 <Graet> :)
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1446 2013-03-21 12:52:42 <Graet> they have a nodes log, but its not got location info listed
1447 2013-03-21 12:53:26 <Sealy> usually they get the IP address and find a location using that
1448 2013-03-21 12:53:48 <Sealy> so the best would be some kind of nodes log with geo ip location tag and sorted by city/country
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1464 2013-03-21 13:05:22 <Ant0> I have an idea
1465 2013-03-21 13:05:24 <Ant0> that may be awesome
1466 2013-03-21 13:05:31 <Ant0> a flood protection system
1467 2013-03-21 13:05:47 <Ant0> to avoid flooding the btc network (ermm shitosi dice)
1468 2013-03-21 13:05:57 <Ant0> :D
1469 2013-03-21 13:06:28 <sipa> how would it work?
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1471 2013-03-21 13:06:55 <Ant0> limit the number of transactions per second/minute
1472 2013-03-21 13:07:10 <sipa> there are several such limits already
1473 2013-03-21 13:07:19 <Ant0> if that number is passed by say X percent, make the transaction being delayed like a week
1474 2013-03-21 13:07:37 <sipa> some specific for free transactions, some implicit by block space, some using bitcoindaysdestroyed as a measure
1475 2013-03-21 13:07:41 <Ant0> that way satoshi dice will build up a eons queue
1476 2013-03-21 13:08:31 <sipa> but so will everyone else
1477 2013-03-21 13:09:39 <Ant0> make it only affect when a single address sends/receive too many times, would be that possible?
1478 2013-03-21 13:10:15 <BTCOxygen> Anyone saw [Tycho] lately ?
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1481 2013-03-21 13:11:21 <kermit_> mining pools
1482 2013-03-21 13:11:29 <kermit_> !ticker
1483 2013-03-21 13:11:29 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 67.43036, Best ask: 67.76999, Bid-ask spread: 0.33963, Last trade: 67.76999, 24 hour volume: 101885.07812485, 24 hour low: 59.00000, 24 hour high: 68.90583, 24 hour vwap: 64.20841
1484 2013-03-21 13:11:34 <kermit_> oh shit
1485 2013-03-21 13:11:38 <kermit_> wrong channel
1486 2013-03-21 13:11:39 <kermit_> ))
1487 2013-03-21 13:11:43 <kinlo> BTCOxygen: sure, he's active enough
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1496 2013-03-21 13:23:22 <BTCOxygen> kinlo: yep
1497 2013-03-21 13:23:28 <BTCOxygen> kinlo: But not on IRC
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1499 2013-03-21 13:23:44 <kinlo> he's been on irc
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1503 2013-03-21 13:31:45 <pete92> Sealy: http://blockchain.info/ip-log the source has approx. lat/long values
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1506 2013-03-21 13:34:50 <Sealy> nice pete92 now were talking...
1507 2013-03-21 13:35:03 <Sealy> is there an easy way to extract that list without having to scroll through each page?
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1509 2013-03-21 13:35:05 <pete92> Sealy: or this may be easier (not paged) http://blockchain.info/connected-nodes
1510 2013-03-21 13:35:25 <Sealy> i saw that already but its only the current nodes which limits my dataset quite a lot
1511 2013-03-21 13:35:41 <Sealy> the first link you sent has a record of 1.6mill unique ip addresses
1512 2013-03-21 13:35:50 <Sealy> if i could get my hands on that then it would be awesome
1513 2013-03-21 13:38:26 <pete92> ah yes - well you can get each page from ip-log easily http://blockchain.info/ip-log/0 0-15 on the end
1514 2013-03-21 13:38:38 <pete92> but that isn't 1.6m records..
1515 2013-03-21 13:39:22 <Sealy> i count 50 rows per page
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1517 2013-03-21 13:41:20 <Sealy> http://blockchain.info/ip-log/32773
1518 2013-03-21 13:41:22 <Sealy> thats the last page
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1520 2013-03-21 13:41:39 <Sealy> at 50 records per page thats 1.6mill records
1521 2013-03-21 13:41:53 <Sealy> hmmm that'll take a lot of time scripting something out to request every page
1522 2013-03-21 13:42:41 <iwilcox> As soon as you go down that route you're writing code to get around the fact that you're not writing code.
1523 2013-03-21 13:42:54 <iwilcox> Take the client and hack around.
1524 2013-03-21 13:43:21 <Sealy> but the client will only give me current nodes?
1525 2013-03-21 13:43:24 <pete92> ah
1526 2013-03-21 13:43:27 <Sealy> and yes, agreed iwilcox
1527 2013-03-21 13:43:49 <Sealy> i was hoping not to have to script anything as it seems like a generic enough request, surely somebody has wanted this information before
1528 2013-03-21 13:44:01 <iwilcox> Appreciated.
1529 2013-03-21 13:44:24 <iwilcox> Everyone has their limit on avoiding reinventing the wheel.
1530 2013-03-21 13:44:48 <Sealy> hmmm damnit, any devs willing to code it up, if nobody replies to my post in a day or so then i'll happily put up a bounty and pay someone
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1532 2013-03-21 13:47:03 <iwilcox> Heh, don't *tell* people that
1533 2013-03-21 13:47:30 <iwilcox> Do it for free today, or bounty tomorrow.  I pick....umm....
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1543 2013-03-21 13:54:33 <doublec> BTCOxygen: he was here a couple of hours ago
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1570 2013-03-21 14:19:06 <joe_k> Sealy: dont they have an pi
1571 2013-03-21 14:19:07 <joe_k> api
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1584 2013-03-21 14:32:37 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: trolls shouldn't be fed :p
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1619 2013-03-21 15:04:52 <peawormsworth> should i have any concern about the upper limit to the queue of wallet keys when running "bitcoind -keypool XXX" ?
1620 2013-03-21 15:05:16 <sipa> above 100000 you may get problems
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1655 2013-03-21 15:47:30 <BlueMatt> TD: ping
1656 2013-03-21 15:47:43 <TD> hi
1657 2013-03-21 15:48:02 <BlueMatt> are there any known bugs that may cause onPeerDisconnected to not be called when it should be?
1658 2013-03-21 15:48:51 <TD> mmm. not sure. netty is a bit odd. i hope netty4 is better.
1659 2013-03-21 15:48:58 <TD> i haven't seen that but i don't use that callback much. why?
1660 2013-03-21 15:49:20 <BlueMatt> wait, no the connection appears open but it stopped downloading blocks...hmm
1661 2013-03-21 15:49:21 viperhr1 has joined
1662 2013-03-21 15:49:26 <BlueMatt> dnsseed is missing blocks
1663 2013-03-21 15:49:52 Eliel_ has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1664 2013-03-21 15:49:56 debiantoruser has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1665 2013-03-21 15:50:01 <BlueMatt> ok, different questions, are there any known bugs that may cause bitcoinj to miss new blocks
1666 2013-03-21 15:50:07 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1667 2013-03-21 15:50:19 <TD> miss blocks entirely? no, not that i'm aware of. which version?
1668 2013-03-21 15:50:29 <BlueMatt> latest master as of yesterday
1669 2013-03-21 15:51:09 <TD> i suppose there might be a race condition. if a peer announces a new block with an inv, then we get disconnected, it might have to wait until n+1 block is solved and announced to realize it missed one.
1670 2013-03-21 15:51:11 Nothing4You has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1671 2013-03-21 15:51:27 <TD> but to get completely stuck, i don't think i've seen that
1672 2013-03-21 15:51:28 saulimus has joined
1673 2013-03-21 15:51:30 <BlueMatt> na, its like 5 blocks behind now
1674 2013-03-21 15:51:33 Nothing4You has joined
1675 2013-03-21 15:51:39 <TD> and the peer it's talking to isn't?
1676 2013-03-21 15:51:40 <BlueMatt> its probably some change to the way peergroup works then
1677 2013-03-21 15:51:44 <BlueMatt> 127.0.0.1 is the peer
1678 2013-03-21 15:51:54 <BlueMatt> yea, the peer is fine
1679 2013-03-21 15:51:56 <TD> ok
1680 2013-03-21 15:51:58 <TD> odd
1681 2013-03-21 15:52:03 <TD> is it deadlocked?
1682 2013-03-21 15:52:11 andreas_ has joined
1683 2013-03-21 15:52:11 <BlueMatt> no, everything seems to be running fine
1684 2013-03-21 15:52:16 <TD> ctrl-break or SIGHUP (i think) will make the jvm print stack traces
1685 2013-03-21 15:52:23 daybyter has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1686 2013-03-21 15:52:29 <BlueMatt> give me a few minutes to dig further into the peergroup
1687 2013-03-21 15:52:31 <TD> well, it's possible for some threads to have stopped whilst others run ok, depending on the nature of the bug
1688 2013-03-21 15:53:01 <kermit_> Luke-jr awake?
1689 2013-03-21 15:53:04 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
1690 2013-03-21 15:53:58 <Luke-Jr> possibly
1691 2013-03-21 15:54:16 debiantoruser has joined
1692 2013-03-21 15:55:28 Prattler has joined
1693 2013-03-21 15:56:12 darinmorrison has joined
1694 2013-03-21 15:56:39 <keystrike> hah
1695 2013-03-21 15:57:11 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1696 2013-03-21 15:59:04 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1697 2013-03-21 15:59:07 pete92 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1698 2013-03-21 15:59:22 TheXev has joined
1699 2013-03-21 15:59:36 TheXev has left ()
1700 2013-03-21 15:59:42 <BlueMatt> TD: no, I see no obvious deadlocks in the thread dump
1701 2013-03-21 15:59:57 <BlueMatt> (its kill -QUIT, not SIGHUP, btw)
1702 2013-03-21 16:00:02 <TD> ah ok
1703 2013-03-21 16:00:07 <TD> strange
1704 2013-03-21 16:00:13 debiantoruser has joined
1705 2013-03-21 16:00:22 coinbit_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1706 2013-03-21 16:00:27 <BlueMatt> is it no longer sufficient to just call peer.startBlockChainDownload?
1707 2013-03-21 16:00:43 <TD> i've been thinking it'd be good to add a binary protocol logger at some point
1708 2013-03-21 16:00:58 <TD> no, that should work. are you doing peerGroup.startAndWait() ?
1709 2013-03-21 16:01:25 <BlueMatt> no, but Im calling startBlockChainDownload from within onPeerConnected?
1710 2013-03-21 16:01:40 stanley has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1711 2013-03-21 16:01:43 metabyte has joined
1712 2013-03-21 16:02:26 <BlueMatt> oh, and its manually connecting, no peerdiscovery, so startAndWait doesnt make sense (I think)?
1713 2013-03-21 16:04:06 segy has joined
1714 2013-03-21 16:04:12 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1715 2013-03-21 16:04:25 locksley_ has joined
1716 2013-03-21 16:05:04 ikbenwouter has joined
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1718 2013-03-21 16:06:20 debiantoruser has joined
1719 2013-03-21 16:07:16 <TD> BlueMatt: hmm, that should work .... startAndWait will ensure that a connection attempt actually happens before it returns, but yes, probably makes little difference here
1720 2013-03-21 16:07:28 nelisky has quit (Quit: nelisky)
1721 2013-03-21 16:07:32 <TD> BlueMatt: i'm wondering if the getblocks got sent too early or something
1722 2013-03-21 16:07:32 giuseppe_ has joined
1723 2013-03-21 16:07:41 <TD> and now it's waiting for a response to a message the remote peer threw away
1724 2013-03-21 16:08:04 <TD> onPeerConnected is called after hearing a version message, not a verack
1725 2013-03-21 16:08:06 <BlueMatt> well it syncs when it gets started, but it doesnt get new blocks
1726 2013-03-21 16:08:37 <TD> not sure. open up the debug logging and take a look i'm afraid ...
1727 2013-03-21 16:08:40 locksley__ has joined
1728 2013-03-21 16:08:43 <BlueMatt> yea, thats where Im at
1729 2013-03-21 16:09:30 <locksley__> newbie here, is this an IRC for core BTC dev or 3rd party BTC apps too?
1730 2013-03-21 16:09:32 locksley_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1731 2013-03-21 16:09:46 <BlueMatt> both
1732 2013-03-21 16:10:03 <BlueMatt> we were just discussing bitcoinj
1733 2013-03-21 16:10:29 <locksley__> sweet
1734 2013-03-21 16:10:59 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1735 2013-03-21 16:11:43 kerum has quit (Quit: Winning)
1736 2013-03-21 16:11:56 hjkl22 has quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org)
1737 2013-03-21 16:12:01 debiantoruser has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1738 2013-03-21 16:12:32 <locksley__> what do people think of the trading platforms out there?
1739 2013-03-21 16:12:47 <locksley__> i'm surprised there's nothing where you can short sell
1740 2013-03-21 16:12:58 <locksley__> that is, to equalize the market
1741 2013-03-21 16:13:23 nomailing has left ()
1742 2013-03-21 16:13:33 segy_ has joined
1743 2013-03-21 16:13:58 <jgarzik> locksley__: off topic for this channel.  Try #bitcoin
1744 2013-03-21 16:14:08 <jgarzik> locksley__: mainly for core BTC dev
1745 2013-03-21 16:14:12 segy_ has quit (Client Quit)
1746 2013-03-21 16:14:25 <jgarzik> ie. core protocol
1747 2013-03-21 16:14:28 <kermit_> bitcoin-otc
1748 2013-03-21 16:14:30 <jgarzik> not necessarily "just the Satoshi client"
1749 2013-03-21 16:14:37 int0x27h has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1750 2013-03-21 16:14:45 Hashdog has joined
1751 2013-03-21 16:14:49 <peawormsworth> locksley__: 3rd party apps are discussed in #bitcoin-tech channel... although a specific question about a specifc app would probably get an answer.
1752 2013-03-21 16:14:51 <jgarzik> bitcoind, Bitcoin-Qt, bitcoinj, pynode, picocoin, bitsofproof, ...
1753 2013-03-21 16:15:05 <locksley__> ah cool, thanks guys
1754 2013-03-21 16:15:17 <kermit_> bitsofproof
1755 2013-03-21 16:15:18 <kermit_> new one
1756 2013-03-21 16:15:33 locksley__ has left ()
1757 2013-03-21 16:16:06 <lianj> jgarzik: so little ruby love here :P
1758 2013-03-21 16:16:10 int0x27h has joined
1759 2013-03-21 16:16:14 <etotheipi_> perhaps we should be encouraging new fee rules to discourage these 1-in-1000-out tx
1760 2013-03-21 16:16:20 <etotheipi_> I just got a "donation" which was one of these
1761 2013-03-21 16:16:33 <jgarzik> etotheipi_: yeah, donations tend to collect a lot of dust, I notice :)
1762 2013-03-21 16:16:54 <jgarzik> etotheipi_: sometimes I think donations are also an attempt to taint
1763 2013-03-21 16:17:27 lonevvolf has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1764 2013-03-21 16:17:30 <etotheipi_> jgarzik: yeah, I've seen that before
1765 2013-03-21 16:17:52 polrpaul has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1766 2013-03-21 16:17:55 <etotheipi_> specifically, I'm looking at this donation I just got for 0.00001 BTC: http://blockchain.info/tx/707b63e2b1aa91d8365cbbfa3ede9d0ea06844ee233ff72d92684bbcbe733258
1767 2013-03-21 16:18:02 dinox has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1768 2013-03-21 16:18:09 <etotheipi_> I think these transactions should require 1+ BTC fee
1769 2013-03-21 16:18:27 <etotheipi_> it's way too easy for people to spam the UTXO set
1770 2013-03-21 16:19:08 <etotheipi_> one input and almost exactly 1000 outputs
1771 2013-03-21 16:19:34 rbecker has quit (Quit: You care. You're there for me.  You love me so much, and I never want to let it go.  You are the one truly amazing person. MDR 3/6/11 <3)
1772 2013-03-21 16:20:23 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: I had one theory that people intentionally send tiny input to public donaton addresses in order to encourage cross-linkage between those addresses and other ones held by the users.
1773 2013-03-21 16:21:27 <gmaxwell> donation*
1774 2013-03-21 16:21:33 <gmaxwell> Though guesswork is a dangerous business— but it's not like someone is sending to a thousand users via the GUI. Someone of at least some slight technical sophication is doing that, for some reason.
1775 2013-03-21 16:21:37 <BlueMatt> whats the special offering/incantation that gets a block again?
1776 2013-03-21 16:21:44 <pierre`> /win/win24
1777 2013-03-21 16:23:21 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: slip some money to a Triad, and ASICMINER will mine one for you
1778 2013-03-21 16:23:22 * jgarzik runs
1779 2013-03-21 16:23:34 polrpaul has joined
1780 2013-03-21 16:23:41 <TD> gets a block?
1781 2013-03-21 16:23:54 <BlueMatt> hey, got one
1782 2013-03-21 16:24:03 <BlueMatt> I need one to keep debugging this bitcoinj bug
1783 2013-03-21 16:24:37 <warren> etotheipi_: I'm all for jacking up the fee on stupid small tx's
1784 2013-03-21 16:25:45 <TD> BlueMatt: i want to create a regtestnet in bitcoind that has the minimum difficulty
1785 2013-03-21 16:25:58 <TD> BlueMatt: so you can get a new block on demand with a single getwork/submit rpc.
1786 2013-03-21 16:26:01 <etotheipi_> warren: yeah, I think it's prudent... I've seen too many of these
1787 2013-03-21 16:26:20 <BlueMatt> TD: cant you just do testnet-in-a-box?
1788 2013-03-21 16:26:28 <TD> that still has 10 minute block intervals
1789 2013-03-21 16:26:35 <etotheipi_> and even with the ridiculous price, the person still created 1000 UTXOs for less than $1 USD
1790 2013-03-21 16:26:44 <TD> i want something like your patch where an RPC makes a new block on demand
1791 2013-03-21 16:26:50 <TD> etotheipi_: so what?
1792 2013-03-21 16:27:00 <TD> etotheipi_: enjoy your free money :-)
1793 2013-03-21 16:27:10 <TD> etotheipi_: maybe in 50 years you can use it to buy a house
1794 2013-03-21 16:27:16 <etotheipi_> TD we have fees for a reason... one of which is to avoid spam
1795 2013-03-21 16:27:26 <etotheipi_> but it's not, in this case
1796 2013-03-21 16:27:28 <warren> etotheipi_: there are many different proposals for this.  One that I like would increase the "size" proportional to (txo - txi).
1797 2013-03-21 16:27:31 <BlueMatt> TD: ah, well you'd need my patch (to drop mindiff to ~-inf) and then short-cuircuit the block diff calculations, or set retarget interval to inf or something... no?
1798 2013-03-21 16:27:38 <TD> one mans spam is another mans payment
1799 2013-03-21 16:27:44 <TD> BlueMatt: yeah
1800 2013-03-21 16:28:04 <etotheipi_> warren:  agreed, I like that idea
1801 2013-03-21 16:28:24 <TD> you are trying to solve a non-existent problem
1802 2013-03-21 16:28:37 <TD> bitcoin transactions are cheap! so relax.
1803 2013-03-21 16:28:47 ToryJujube has joined
1804 2013-03-21 16:28:50 <warren> TD: you're completely ignoring the uxto set as a separate cost not reflected in the fee design.
1805 2013-03-21 16:28:53 <BlueMatt> TD: would probably be convenient for testing, though the patch is small enough its probably easy enough to just write on-demand
1806 2013-03-21 16:29:07 <etotheipi_> TD: it doesn't hurt to discourage behavior that has long term consequences to network operation
1807 2013-03-21 16:29:13 <TD> warren: because it's so trivial. i routinely waste more data than the utxo set size in un-truncated log files
1808 2013-03-21 16:29:15 rbecker has joined
1809 2013-03-21 16:29:35 <TD> BlueMatt: i'd rather have it integrated. then we can have regression tests that are easy for developers to run
1810 2013-03-21 16:29:42 <warren> etotheipi_: perhaps increase the "size" proportional to (txo - txi), somehow giving more weight to smaller outputs based upon how much it would cost to spend it.
1811 2013-03-21 16:29:54 <TD> etotheipi_: except it's not. you will at some point spend that coin and it'll get merged into a bigger one
1812 2013-03-21 16:30:00 <etotheipi_> TD, the problem is that much of this "dust" is permanent... much if it may never get get spent, meaning it's permanently stuck in everyone's pruned and unpruned blockchain
1813 2013-03-21 16:30:07 <gavinandresen> blah blah blah utxo set fees blah blah blah….  less talking, more coding please!  Somebody write up a coherent design, then go implement and test it.  Geez.
1814 2013-03-21 16:30:24 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: thanks...
1815 2013-03-21 16:30:26 o2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1816 2013-03-21 16:30:42 <etotheipi_> I didn't really want to get into this argument again, anyway
1817 2013-03-21 16:30:47 <TD> so don't start it
1818 2013-03-21 16:31:03 <etotheipi_> back to desktop3!
1819 2013-03-21 16:31:12 <BlueMatt> TD: personally, I dont mind having pull-tester run such tests (though that my be just because I run it, and it is down often enough it may not be usable)...I just wish it had waaay more tests
1820 2013-03-21 16:31:17 <sipa> etotheipi_: what's that?
1821 2013-03-21 16:31:19 <BlueMatt> TD: (and get others to contribute...)
1822 2013-03-21 16:31:21 <gavinandresen> We need a solid straw-man design document to complain about or pick apart, or we'll just go around and around in circles.
1823 2013-03-21 16:31:27 <etotheipi_> sipa: linux desktops
1824 2013-03-21 16:31:38 <TD> BlueMatt: well, right now bcj really suffers from lack of regression/stress tests. unit tests are good but not enough.
1825 2013-03-21 16:31:48 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: petertodd posted a pull request with behavior changes for small outputs and you closed it. Just saying.
1826 2013-03-21 16:31:51 <TD> gavinandresen: a solid man made of straw, you say. intruiging.
1827 2013-03-21 16:31:54 whizter has joined
1828 2013-03-21 16:31:54 <etotheipi_> all my communications are on desktop1, development on 2 and 3 (two different branches), and all my VMs on desktop4
1829 2013-03-21 16:32:00 <etotheipi_> I'm a wimp and only use 4
1830 2013-03-21 16:32:02 <BlueMatt> TD: yep, having a block-tester style test run by its jenkins would be nice
1831 2013-03-21 16:32:09 o2 has joined
1832 2013-03-21 16:32:32 <BlueMatt> TD: Id really like to have a block-tester thinggy that just throws volume at targets
1833 2013-03-21 16:32:35 <gavinandresen> TD: ok, we need a well-thought-out straw-man design ....
1834 2013-03-21 16:32:47 * BlueMatt chants "block, block, block"
1835 2013-03-21 16:32:57 * sipa blocks blocks
1836 2013-03-21 16:33:08 * gmaxwell blocks block blocks
1837 2013-03-21 16:33:28 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: is the pull-tester broken?
1838 2013-03-21 16:33:37 * sipa blocks block blocks-blocking blockers
1839 2013-03-21 16:33:37 [Tycho] has joined
1840 2013-03-21 16:33:39 * gavinandresen could look himself, but is feeling lazy
1841 2013-03-21 16:33:49 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yes, still havent updated for the 0.8.1 stuff
1842 2013-03-21 16:33:51 <BlueMatt> :(
1843 2013-03-21 16:34:09 <BlueMatt> TD: the root cause is "Did not start chain download on solved block due to in-flight header download."
1844 2013-03-21 16:34:15 <gmaxwell> Block blocks block block blocking block block blocks.
1845 2013-03-21 16:34:24 <BlueMatt> you all failed, we got a block
1846 2013-03-21 16:34:29 <kinlo> :)
1847 2013-03-21 16:34:44 <gmaxwell> I think I was successful (/me counts the words).
1848 2013-03-21 16:34:46 <TD> BlueMatt: hmm
1849 2013-03-21 16:34:54 <TD> BlueMatt: i wonder if that's a bug that happens in the absence of a wallet
1850 2013-03-21 16:34:59 <BlueMatt> it may be...
1851 2013-03-21 16:35:12 <TD> BlueMatt: i test PeerMonitor (no chain, no wallet) pertty regularly. and i test with chain+wallet. but not chain+no wallet
1852 2013-03-21 16:35:19 <TD> i can well believe there's a bug in that configuration
1853 2013-03-21 16:35:48 <TD> BlueMatt: probably in the absence of a wallet we should assume the user doesn't want to ever use getheaders.
1854 2013-03-21 16:35:52 <BlueMatt> actually, no that cant be the root cause, that only happens if the block is orphan, which it isnt always (though that needs fixed...)
1855 2013-03-21 16:36:11 <BlueMatt> yea
1856 2013-03-21 16:36:24 <TD> BlueMatt: well it's clearly hosed that it's printing that anyway. so i guess you're close to the bug.
1857 2013-03-21 16:36:28 <BlueMatt> not sure why it fails to download the first block after sync...needs more debugging, Ill see if I can get a patch in
1858 2013-03-21 16:37:07 nelisky has joined
1859 2013-03-21 16:37:14 paybitcoin1 has joined
1860 2013-03-21 16:37:35 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1861 2013-03-21 16:37:53 moore_ has joined
1862 2013-03-21 16:39:03 * jgarzik posts a design for decentralized, self emerging share exchanges: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.msg1653292#msg1653292
1863 2013-03-21 16:39:19 * jgarzik trolls gmaxwell and TD
1864 2013-03-21 16:39:32 <[Tycho]> Hello
1865 2013-03-21 16:40:25 debiantoruser has joined
1866 2013-03-21 16:40:42 <TD> jgarzik: trolling the sec, surely
1867 2013-03-21 16:41:46 Eliel has joined
1868 2013-03-21 16:42:15 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: <3  But if you want the cool kids to take it seriously the robot must use AJAX or RAILS or COBOL^WXML and not email.  Otherwise... the mixture of GPG and bitcoin message is kinda odd, but it sounds great.
1869 2013-03-21 16:42:25 <jgarzik> heh
1870 2013-03-21 16:42:50 <nanotube> howdy [Tycho]
1871 2013-03-21 16:43:03 * Scrat copies jgarzik's idea
1872 2013-03-21 16:43:22 moore_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1873 2013-03-21 16:43:28 <jgarzik> Just need a "shareholder registry robot"
1874 2013-03-21 16:43:34 poggy has left ()
1875 2013-03-21 16:43:40 <jgarzik> that provides for secure transfer
1876 2013-03-21 16:43:56 <jgarzik> escrow service, trading websites, etc. can all be external to the company
1877 2013-03-21 16:45:02 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: right, in a shareholding case the company itself is a single point of trust that can't be escaped... only ameliorated via transparency. Might as well make use of it in order to make things efficient.
1878 2013-03-21 16:46:15 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: and legally, companies in some countries may have additional shareholder requirements that must be fulfilled beyond just a digital signature
1879 2013-03-21 16:46:32 paybitcoin has joined
1880 2013-03-21 16:46:41 <jgarzik> so they must be the SPoT by necessity, in those cases
1881 2013-03-21 16:46:58 * jgarzik needs to investigate automated identity-proving APIs
1882 2013-03-21 16:47:05 paybitcoin1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1883 2013-03-21 16:47:15 <jgarzik> They aren't perfect, but some websites do use them for online identity verification
1884 2013-03-21 16:48:23 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1885 2013-03-21 16:52:06 TD is now known as TD[away]
1886 2013-03-21 16:53:38 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: Did you see that [Tycho] switched to v2 blocks?  v2 lock-in may be in a week or two.
1887 2013-03-21 16:53:45 <jgarzik> [Tycho]: thanks again for that
1888 2013-03-21 16:53:53 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: yes, read the scroll-back this morning
1889 2013-03-21 16:54:55 Vinnie_win has joined
1890 2013-03-21 16:55:14 <Vinnie_win> Who controls bitcoin.org / bitcoin.com ?
1891 2013-03-21 16:55:50 <sipa> Vinnie_win: the DNS, the server it runs on, or who has access to making changes to what it serves? :0
1892 2013-03-21 16:56:12 <Vinnie_win> the content
1893 2013-03-21 16:56:20 <gavinandresen> so…. when are "we" going to pull the new bitcoin.org ?
1894 2013-03-21 16:56:27 Transisto has quit ()
1895 2013-03-21 16:56:47 <Vinnie_win> I'd be willing to drop $20,000 to hire a PR firm to redesign the site
1896 2013-03-21 16:56:59 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: multisig was in the original Satoshi client, yes?  Version < 2.0, right?
1897 2013-03-21 16:57:10 <sipa> jgarzik: define multisig?
1898 2013-03-21 16:57:17 <jgarzik> OP_CHECKMULTISIG
1899 2013-03-21 16:57:23 <gavinandresen> Vinnie_win: it is a github project: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org  "patches welcome"
1900 2013-03-21 16:57:43 <sipa> Vinnie_win: also, have a look at the "new" site being developed: http://174.142.20.146/en/
1901 2013-03-21 16:57:44 maji is now known as mayan
1902 2013-03-21 16:57:45 <Vinnie_win> gavinandresen: I wouldn't spend the money unless I know that the people who control the content are on board with my concepts
1903 2013-03-21 16:57:49 mayan has quit (Changing host)
1904 2013-03-21 16:57:49 mayan has joined
1905 2013-03-21 16:57:51 pigeons has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1906 2013-03-21 16:57:53 mayan is now known as maji
1907 2013-03-21 16:58:13 <gavinandresen> Vinnie_win: okey dokey.  There is nobody in control, it is consensus-based.  You have to do the hard work of getting consensus that what you do is better.
1908 2013-03-21 16:58:39 JZavala has joined
1909 2013-03-21 16:58:41 pigeons has joined
1910 2013-03-21 16:58:46 viperhr1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1911 2013-03-21 16:58:50 <Vinnie_win> Well right now the consensus is that bitcoin.org should not try to aim towards getting the broadest appeal, nor should it try to convert average people into using bitcoin
1912 2013-03-21 16:59:05 pigeons is now known as Guest45358
1913 2013-03-21 16:59:07 <Vinnie_win> Even with the new redesign it is aimed at people who are rather techy
1914 2013-03-21 16:59:20 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: you mean version 0.2 ?  Yes, before the implementation of IsStandard() 'raw' (not p2sh) multisig would work
1915 2013-03-21 16:59:22 <BlueMatt> Vinnie_win: look at the new site
1916 2013-03-21 16:59:27 <Vinnie_win> bluematt: Yes I have seen it
1917 2013-03-21 16:59:39 <BlueMatt> Vinnie_win: sorry, responding without reading all of scrollback
1918 2013-03-21 16:59:50 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I started a conversation in #bitcoin
1919 2013-03-21 17:00:05 <Vinnie_win> BlueMatt: No worries. The new site is really a great improvement but there is so much more to go.
1920 2013-03-21 17:00:07 <sipa> why do the web wallets not have a logo?
1921 2013-03-21 17:00:08 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: … to see if there was rough consensus that the new site is better
1922 2013-03-21 17:00:09 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: Thanks
1923 2013-03-21 17:00:28 <sipa> their links also don't work for me
1924 2013-03-21 17:00:31 <gavinandresen> sipa: refresh, then click on the "yes I understand"
1925 2013-03-21 17:00:50 <gavinandresen> sipa: didn't work for me,either until I refreshed the page
1926 2013-03-21 17:00:54 <sipa> gavinandresen: i did
1927 2013-03-21 17:00:56 giuseppe_ has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1928 2013-03-21 17:01:17 <gavinandresen> sipa: kick it, see if that fixes it....
1929 2013-03-21 17:01:33 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: and the consensus was?
1930 2013-03-21 17:01:45 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: consensus is that it is better than current bitcoin.org
1931 2013-03-21 17:02:00 giuseppe_ has joined
1932 2013-03-21 17:02:06 <BlueMatt> am I the only one who finds the buttons off the side of the background really weird?
1933 2013-03-21 17:02:17 <gavinandresen> nope
1934 2013-03-21 17:02:32 <Vinnie_win> So I'm gonna ask again, would people here generally accept that using bitcoin.org to market to the general public is a good idea?
1935 2013-03-21 17:02:57 <gmaxwell> 'to market'. No. I don't think thats a grand idea.
1936 2013-03-21 17:03:05 <sipa> i'm generally opposed to trying to make bitcoin mainstream; i don't think it's ready for that
1937 2013-03-21 17:03:11 Guest45358 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1938 2013-03-21 17:03:13 <Vinnie_win> Okay, thanks. This is exactly what i thought
1939 2013-03-21 17:03:47 <Vinnie_win> Maybe in 5 or 10 years bitcoin might be ready?
1940 2013-03-21 17:03:49 <Scrat> I'd expect a big 'Download now' button in the middle of the page. but that's just me
1941 2013-03-21 17:03:54 <Vinnie_win> Scrat: Thank you.
1942 2013-03-21 17:04:12 pigeons_ has joined
1943 2013-03-21 17:04:12 <gavinandresen> Vinnie_win: hopefully in 5 or 10 years Walmart is marketing bitcoin for us
1944 2013-03-21 17:04:50 <Vinnie_win> Was 5 years not sufficient development time to have a mainstream product?
1945 2013-03-21 17:04:54 <gmaxwell> Vinnie_win: I would expect that marketing will be unstoppable when, or really— before— its ready.
1946 2013-03-21 17:05:00 <gmaxwell> Vinnie_win: when you are reinventing money.
1947 2013-03-21 17:05:03 <BlueMatt>  if electrum has the android logo on it, why is it not also under mobile wallets?
1948 2013-03-21 17:05:17 <gavinandresen> saivann: ping
1949 2013-03-21 17:05:32 <saivann> pong
1950 2013-03-21 17:05:59 <gavinandresen> saivann: if "we" pull the new site now, are you around to fix any issues that crop up?  Or when would be the best time to pull?
1951 2013-03-21 17:06:09 <gmaxwell> Vinnie_win: Bitcoin's 'competition' has had a hundred years of development by the whole planet. :P
1952 2013-03-21 17:06:15 <Vinnie_win> Why is the future of Bitcoin and the decision of when it is ready for the mainstream up to you guys?
1953 2013-03-21 17:06:22 <Vinnie_win> And why are you taking so long to produce a version? What's up?
1954 2013-03-21 17:06:34 <Vinnie_win> "default path of 1. Google "bitcoin" 2. Visit bitcoin.org <http://bitcoin.org>, 3. Download and run Satoshi for windows is guaranteed to disappoint 95%+ of all people"
1955 2013-03-21 17:06:35 <sipa> Vinnie_win: first of all, i don't think it's up to us
1956 2013-03-21 17:06:36 midnightmagic has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1957 2013-03-21 17:06:41 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1958 2013-03-21 17:06:41 holorga_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1959 2013-03-21 17:06:51 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1960 2013-03-21 17:06:55 <sipa> Vinnie_win: we're simply building one piece of the infrastructure, and a lot has to be built around that
1961 2013-03-21 17:06:59 <saivann> gavinandresen : Sure, I will be available in a short delay (a few hours) to fix about anything.
1962 2013-03-21 17:07:05 <Vinnie_win> bitcoin.org is the first search result for "bitcoin"
1963 2013-03-21 17:07:17 <gmaxwell> Vinnie_win: sounds like your issue is with google.
1964 2013-03-21 17:07:18 cap2002 has joined
1965 2013-03-21 17:07:24 <gavinandresen> saivann: ok, lets make the plan to pull in a few hours when you are available.
1966 2013-03-21 17:07:42 FredEE has joined
1967 2013-03-21 17:08:04 <BlueMatt> might want to also make sure tcatm is around
1968 2013-03-21 17:08:09 midnightmagic has joined
1969 2013-03-21 17:08:12 <BlueMatt> (so that the jekyll build thinggy runs)
1970 2013-03-21 17:08:12 <gavinandresen> Vinnie_win: with the new design, it will be visit bitcoin.org, visit choose wallet page, then download and run something other than the satoshi client
1971 2013-03-21 17:08:15 <saivann> gavinandresen : Let's say in one hour, is that good?
1972 2013-03-21 17:08:20 <gavinandresen> saivann: great!
1973 2013-03-21 17:08:28 da2ce7_d has joined
1974 2013-03-21 17:08:36 <warren> gavinandresen: cool
1975 2013-03-21 17:08:43 <gmaxwell> Vinnie_win: But really, take your pump and dump elsewhere. We're building technology infrastructure, we have an ethical obligation to our users... and I'm looking at my wallet and the account for payments from IRC/Forum blowhards with infinite opinion to code ratios seems to be bone dry.
1976 2013-03-21 17:09:55 <Scrat> should the Foundation hire more developers? I dont know if its financials allow that
1977 2013-03-21 17:10:04 <jgarzik> Sigh.  File in the "don't get it" category maybe.  http://www.bloomberg.com/video/a-look-at-the-world-s-largest-online-currency-cPMjkXT0QB~SWJbQWWaB2g.html
1978 2013-03-21 17:10:16 pigeons_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1979 2013-03-21 17:10:27 <saivann> BlueMatt : Electrum seems quite complicate to run on Android. I'm not sure what is best : http://electrum.org/android.html
1980 2013-03-21 17:10:27 torsthaldo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1981 2013-03-21 17:10:35 Descry has joined
1982 2013-03-21 17:10:49 <gmaxwell> Scrat: having defacto control of Bitcoin in the foundation's hands would create a liability, so care needs to be taken even seperately from finance.
1983 2013-03-21 17:10:51 <gavinandresen> Foundation's finances won't let it hire more developers right now… maybe if we get a bunch more corporate members ...
1984 2013-03-21 17:11:15 <BlueMatt> saivann: alright, as long as its not a copy/paste or other bug
1985 2013-03-21 17:11:22 <gavinandresen> I'd want to hire somebody to organize QA testing and act as a project manager first, though
1986 2013-03-21 17:11:22 <saivann> gavinandresen : That's why I wanted a "Support Bitcoin" page on bitcoin.org :-)
1987 2013-03-21 17:11:23 bitafterbit has joined
1988 2013-03-21 17:11:56 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1989 2013-03-21 17:12:58 <Vinnie_win> gmaxwell: Okay, I'll address you in #bitcoin then
1990 2013-03-21 17:13:05 pigeons_ has joined
1991 2013-03-21 17:13:11 <Scrat> gmaxwell: how long till we get to the point where <insert big profitable OSS company here> has a full time dev working on bitcoin
1992 2013-03-21 17:13:43 <gmaxwell> Scrat: We do have a full time dev officially working on Bitcoin, Gavin.
1993 2013-03-21 17:14:00 <Scrat> yes
1994 2013-03-21 17:14:39 whizter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1995 2013-03-21 17:14:43 Diablo-D3 has joined
1996 2013-03-21 17:14:59 <gmaxwell> (Via the Foundation, which I think is a great thing— beyond that— hard to say. It seems that the bitcoin companies that are funding tech at all seem to mostly be building inhouse systems rather than funding the public infrastructure, right now at least)
1997 2013-03-21 17:15:20 <jgarzik> It is tempting to create a library for securely maintaining a shareholder registry, as described
1998 2013-03-21 17:15:24 <gavinandresen> they're all small, so dedicating even half a developer to core infrastructure is expensive for them
1999 2013-03-21 17:15:25 <jgarzik> fill in your own robot
2000 2013-03-21 17:16:16 <nanotube> fwiw, i like the new site.
2001 2013-03-21 17:16:18 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I've noted that before.  Bitcoin companies of any size tend to build their own stuff, or otherwise not really contribute to core development
2002 2013-03-21 17:16:49 whizter has joined
2003 2013-03-21 17:17:14 <grau_> jgarzik: core bitcoin is also not well suited for corporate purpuses
2004 2013-03-21 17:17:20 epilido has joined
2005 2013-03-21 17:17:33 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: regardless of the dynamics, I expect that they will eventually support public infrastructure when they become sufficiently large.
2006 2013-03-21 17:17:35 pigeons_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2007 2013-03-21 17:17:42 <jgarzik> grau_: perhaps, but it tends to define the behavior on the public network
2008 2013-03-21 17:17:50 <grau_> a single process single wallet ancient gui ....
2009 2013-03-21 17:18:05 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, gavinandresen: Yifu indicated interest in funding some public infrastructure
2010 2013-03-21 17:18:26 <grau_> jgarzik: that is not long the case I guess
2011 2013-03-21 17:18:30 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: great! he should do that….
2012 2013-03-21 17:18:39 <sipa> grau_: in the long term, i don't believe the current bitcoin codebase will end up being people's wallet
2013 2013-03-21 17:18:49 <jgarzik> grau_: I was talking about bitcoind, not Bitcoin-Qt
2014 2013-03-21 17:18:50 <grau_> yes
2015 2013-03-21 17:18:53 <gmaxwell> "duh"
2016 2013-03-21 17:19:02 cap2002 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2017 2013-03-21 17:19:05 <sipa> grau_: but i like to see it as the basis of the network's full node infrastructure
2018 2013-03-21 17:19:11 nelisky has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2019 2013-03-21 17:19:44 <nanotube> also fwiw, have no problem running mainline client on an average-ish couple year old laptop.
2020 2013-03-21 17:19:51 <grau_> jgarzik: bitcoind has an rpc interface that is not optimized for integration with merchants but with hacking
2021 2013-03-21 17:20:27 nelisky has joined
2022 2013-03-21 17:20:33 <gavinandresen> I've been very surprised that the people using the rpc interface for Big Stuff haven't contributed patches back, I thought they would.
2023 2013-03-21 17:20:35 <grau_> sipa: there might be a future for bitcoind if it is modularized and gets significant refactoring
2024 2013-03-21 17:21:25 <warren> gavinandresen: more hard forks to encourage them to upstream?
2025 2013-03-21 17:21:26 <sipa> grau_: personally, i'd like to see it focus on purely block chain validation/p2p relaying; not even any wallet implementation or ability to track transactions at all
2026 2013-03-21 17:21:43 BTC_Bear has joined
2027 2013-03-21 17:21:48 <grau_> sipa: yes, this is exactly I built bitsofproof
2028 2013-03-21 17:22:12 <grau_> and this is bitcoind need to move to to survive
2029 2013-03-21 17:22:29 <sipa> grau_: i know- i wouldn't have bothered re-implementing block validation in it, though
2030 2013-03-21 17:22:36 <gavinandresen> grau_ : any luck getting people to contribute or use ?
2031 2013-03-21 17:22:37 <sipa> grau_: apart from that, it seems like a great project
2032 2013-03-21 17:22:59 <grau_> gavinandersen: I have a well known customer, but can not yet tell
2033 2013-03-21 17:23:16 <Sealy> wow… is that THE gavin andresen?
2034 2013-03-21 17:23:18 <gavinandresen> grau_: good!
2035 2013-03-21 17:23:26 <gavinandresen> Sealy: no, I'm the other one
2036 2013-03-21 17:23:50 <BlueMatt> I have to ask why we now have multiple full verification engines in java...
2037 2013-03-21 17:23:52 <Sealy> an imposter?
2038 2013-03-21 17:24:15 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2039 2013-03-21 17:24:19 <grau_> BlueMatt: the time I started bitcoinj was SPV only
2040 2013-03-21 17:24:30 <grau_> I sod not know that tou work into that direction
2041 2013-03-21 17:24:33 <BlueMatt> ahh, well then we should have coordinated efforts better ;)
2042 2013-03-21 17:24:48 <grau_> and I found bitcoinj the same monolithic stuff like bitcoind just java
2043 2013-03-21 17:24:51 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: or why mtgox and coinbase have their own?
2044 2013-03-21 17:25:11 <BlueMatt> grau_: really? Ive found it quite modular
2045 2013-03-21 17:25:27 <BlueMatt> well, with some bugs when you split it out, but it works reasonably well
2046 2013-03-21 17:25:42 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: now that I will never understand
2047 2013-03-21 17:25:51 <grau_> BlueMatt: some modularity on code level but not distinct modues to configure and distribute
2048 2013-03-21 17:25:58 <BlueMatt> you'd think with limited dev resources they wouldnt waste their time with writing their own engines
2049 2013-03-21 17:26:04 <Eneerge> whats the reason for so muhc hate on dwolla now?
2050 2013-03-21 17:26:07 <grau_> Eg. it is a single wallet thing
2051 2013-03-21 17:26:25 stellan0r has joined
2052 2013-03-21 17:26:36 <BlueMatt> grau_: "single wallet thing"?
2053 2013-03-21 17:26:38 <grau_> BlueMatt: bitcoinj is quite mature I agree
2054 2013-03-21 17:26:56 stellan0r has left ()
2055 2013-03-21 17:27:37 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2056 2013-03-21 17:27:38 <grau_> The wallet and the p2p and the validation are all in same process
2057 2013-03-21 17:27:46 <grau_> in bitcoinj right?
2058 2013-03-21 17:28:07 <grau_> Is it possible to to have several wallets served by the p2p in same time?
2059 2013-03-21 17:28:08 <BlueMatt> oh, process-wise...yes, that would be interesting to split...but should be pretty easy to do
2060 2013-03-21 17:28:22 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2061 2013-03-21 17:28:24 <BlueMatt> yea, if you run multiple wallets in the same process sure, you can have infinite wallets
2062 2013-03-21 17:29:01 <grau_> You are the expert of that code. It might be possible.
2063 2013-03-21 17:29:06 toffoo has joined
2064 2013-03-21 17:29:20 <grau_> I built mine with these ideas from beginning. Modular distributed multiuser
2065 2013-03-21 17:29:55 <grau_> bitsofproof is a server wheras bitcoinj focus was mobile
2066 2013-03-21 17:30:00 ThomasV has joined
2067 2013-03-21 17:30:07 <grau_> it might have shifted with your work
2068 2013-03-21 17:31:18 <gmaxwell> I've been trying for months to convince etothipi to make armory hostable on top of the bitcoind RPC... it's so close to that already, but it keeps its own expensive indexes of the blockchain.
2069 2013-03-21 17:31:49 debiantoruser has joined
2070 2013-03-21 17:32:12 <BlueMatt> grau_: yea, I would hope bitcoinj is now more able to be used as a library for any arbitrary project, not just mobile
2071 2013-03-21 17:32:30 <BlueMatt> grau_: sounds like the primary difference is running a wallet in the same process vs over a network
2072 2013-03-21 17:32:53 <BlueMatt> grau_: would be interesting to see how much of the bitsofproof protocol could be implemented with bitcoinj....
2073 2013-03-21 17:34:07 <helo> header on every page: "The bitcoin.org does not condone using the bitcoin system to store meaningful amounts of value."
2074 2013-03-21 17:34:15 <helo> s/The //
2075 2013-03-21 17:34:41 <grau_> BlueMatt: bitsofproof is not in production, I would not copy its interfaces yet.
2076 2013-03-21 17:35:01 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2077 2013-03-21 17:35:32 <helo> i can't help but think bitsofproof is a website based on its name
2078 2013-03-21 17:36:01 <grau_> BlueMatt: My goal with it is to add support to thing specific to a merchant.
2079 2013-03-21 17:36:09 torsthaldo has joined
2080 2013-03-21 17:36:20 <BlueMatt> grau_: ahh, well I doubt I have time for such a project anyway, I was just commenting because it seems like there is some serious duplicated effort here and for all these clients/libs with only small dev resources duplicated effort is killer
2081 2013-03-21 17:37:05 <gmaxwell> grau_: How do your seperate processes communicate?
2082 2013-03-21 17:37:16 <grau_> BlueMatt: I do not think an implementation fits all. It is natural that as the economy grows people want to have unique tools.
2083 2013-03-21 17:37:29 <gmaxwell> ;;ticker
2084 2013-03-21 17:37:30 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 74.01505, Best ask: 74.29875, Bid-ask spread: 0.28370, Last trade: 74.29875, 24 hour volume: 95240.44718836, 24 hour low: 62.50130, 24 hour high: 74.90000, 24 hour vwap: 66.69937
2085 2013-03-21 17:37:32 <grau_> It is not a "duplication of effort" but people trying to get the edge
2086 2013-03-21 17:37:43 parasciidic has joined
2087 2013-03-21 17:37:44 datagutt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2088 2013-03-21 17:38:13 <BlueMatt> grau_: absolutely, there is no question there...but I dont see how bitsofproof and bitcoinj didnt write very similar code for essentially the same purpose, though bitsofproof may be a bit higher level
2089 2013-03-21 17:38:23 <BlueMatt> grau_: seems to me that is the definition of duplicated effort
2090 2013-03-21 17:38:25 <grau_> helo: its a name like armory
2091 2013-03-21 17:38:36 johnsoft has joined
2092 2013-03-21 17:38:37 viperhr1 has joined
2093 2013-03-21 17:39:20 <gmaxwell> grau_: The purpose of standards is to set aside competition where competition is inefficient— or even detrimental. Competition on bitcoin backend infrastructure is one of those things. (wallet and frontend stuff is another matter, compeition there is generally good)
2094 2013-03-21 17:39:23 <grau_> BlueMatt: As I started they were different focus. bitcoinj had no validation.
2095 2013-03-21 17:39:52 epilido has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2096 2013-03-21 17:40:00 <BlueMatt> grau_: oh, Im not trying to say you did anything wrong, at the time you started you probably made the right decision, Im just talking
2097 2013-03-21 17:40:03 giuseppe_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2098 2013-03-21 17:40:05 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2099 2013-03-21 17:40:12 johnsoft1 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2100 2013-03-21 17:40:27 <BlueMatt> (and trying to push bitcoinj, because more users means more bugs found, means better software for everyone)
2101 2013-03-21 17:40:44 nelisky has quit (Quit: nelisky)
2102 2013-03-21 17:40:48 n5 has quit ()
2103 2013-03-21 17:41:26 debiantoruser has joined
2104 2013-03-21 17:41:43 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you'll never overcome "it's java, yuck" :P especially now with oracle morphing into a patent-assertion-entity in the twlight of its relevance.
2105 2013-03-21 17:41:44 <grau_> gmaxwell: Agree on the aim of standards. I believe bitcoind is a bad example of standard (although it is de facto ono in the moment) since it does not clearly indicates boundaries of the standard vs. the actual implementation
2106 2013-03-21 17:42:05 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, thats what I was talking to someone who already writes bitcoin stuff in java :)
2107 2013-03-21 17:42:16 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Quite fair.
2108 2013-03-21 17:43:17 <grau_> gmaxwell: Java is the de-facto standard for enterpeise software.
2109 2013-03-21 17:44:15 rbecker has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2110 2013-03-21 17:44:16 * sipa spontaneously thinks about https://github.com/Mikkeren/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition
2111 2013-03-21 17:44:28 <BlueMatt> TD[away]: is there a reason onPeerConnected is run after VersionMessage and not VerAck?
2112 2013-03-21 17:44:41 normanrichards has joined
2113 2013-03-21 17:45:26 <BlueMatt> sipa: heh
2114 2013-03-21 17:45:59 <grau_> sipa: At least in fincance, nearly all services developed in the last 10 years is in Java. C++ is used by quants but usually wrapped into Java or C#
2115 2013-03-21 17:46:42 <grau_> Newer projects use Scala, that might be the solution for the oracle problem of Java.
2116 2013-03-21 17:47:47 <[Tycho]> :)
2117 2013-03-21 17:47:49 rbecker has joined
2118 2013-03-21 17:48:45 <grau_> I used C++ as I was a quant, but all trading and book keeping systems were built in Java since at lest about 2001
2119 2013-03-21 17:50:07 <gmaxwell> grau_: perhaps you missed above, 10:15 < gmaxwell> grau_: How do your seperate processes communicate?
2120 2013-03-21 17:50:10 pigeons has joined
2121 2013-03-21 17:50:34 pigeons is now known as Guest47060
2122 2013-03-21 17:50:49 <grau_> gmaxwell: a message bus supported by a distinct message broker process
2123 2013-03-21 17:50:58 <helo> "Authenticity is verified through private keys and double-spend through the Bitcoin network." en/bitcoin-for-developers under "Most of the security is on the client side"
2124 2013-03-21 17:51:04 donpdonp has quit (Changing host)
2125 2013-03-21 17:51:04 donpdonp has joined
2126 2013-03-21 17:51:41 <sipa> grau_: what is a "quant"  ?
2127 2013-03-21 17:52:05 Ant0 has joined
2128 2013-03-21 17:52:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_analyst
2129 2013-03-21 17:52:35 <sipa> ah
2130 2013-03-21 17:52:36 <grau_> sipa: a guy sitting on the trading floor, not running books but writing algorithms developing pricing models
2131 2013-03-21 17:53:29 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2132 2013-03-21 17:53:55 <grau_> most quants are math or physics some computer sience, I am the later
2133 2013-03-21 17:54:59 MJR_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2134 2013-03-21 17:55:09 debiantoruser has joined
2135 2013-03-21 17:55:20 MJR_ has joined
2136 2013-03-21 17:55:44 <sipa> i c
2137 2013-03-21 17:56:12 Descry has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2138 2013-03-21 17:56:19 <MJR_> have you played with R grau_
2139 2013-03-21 17:56:47 <MJR_> I have been trying to learn so I can do some modeling
2140 2013-03-21 17:56:52 <grau_> not myself, was used a lot for timeseries
2141 2013-03-21 17:56:54 <saivann> gavinandresen : OK I'm there and ready for the pull request to be merged, when you guys are ready
2142 2013-03-21 17:56:59 pigeons_ has joined
2143 2013-03-21 17:57:13 <MJR_> the quants I know love matlab
2144 2013-03-21 17:57:28 <MJR_> and some use R
2145 2013-03-21 17:57:29 <grau_> my favorite for research is mathematica
2146 2013-03-21 17:57:34 <MJR_> cool
2147 2013-03-21 17:57:53 <saivann> Indeed it would be nice if tcatm is there, I don't have access to the build script
2148 2013-03-21 17:58:03 Guest47060 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2149 2013-03-21 17:58:05 <grau_> i had to use matlab a lot, but it sucks compared to mathematica
2150 2013-03-21 17:58:34 datagutt has joined
2151 2013-03-21 17:58:38 <MJR_> and expensive right?
2152 2013-03-21 17:58:55 <gavinandresen> saivann: I poked the merge pull request button.  BlueMatt: do you have access to the bitcoin.org jekyll virtual machine?
2153 2013-03-21 17:58:57 <MJR_> I didn't do anything like that in school
2154 2013-03-21 17:59:02 <grau_> both are expensive
2155 2013-03-21 17:59:09 <MJR_> :(
2156 2013-03-21 17:59:14 <MJR_> 👎
2157 2013-03-21 17:59:23 <grau_> mathematica you can get for home for cheap however
2158 2013-03-21 17:59:24 <MJR_> what is the GNU equivalent
2159 2013-03-21 17:59:29 <sipa> maxima?
2160 2013-03-21 17:59:42 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I dunno nothin bout how that vm works
2161 2013-03-21 17:59:45 datagutt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2162 2013-03-21 18:00:28 <grau_> MJR_: https://store.wolfram.com/view/app/mathematica/home
2163 2013-03-21 18:00:28 <saivann> So far the build script didn't push anything
2164 2013-03-21 18:00:43 <ThomasV> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=154888.msg1653432#msg1653432 <-- very suspîcious..
2165 2013-03-21 18:00:53 MC-Droid has joined
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2167 2013-03-21 18:02:18 <MJR_> grau_: hmmm wolfram doesn't take bitcoins...
2168 2013-03-21 18:02:57 drizztbsd has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2169 2013-03-21 18:04:33 <BlueMatt> guessing based on vm cpu usage, it polls every 15 minutes
2170 2013-03-21 18:04:35 <BlueMatt> wait till :45
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2175 2013-03-21 18:06:59 Phraust has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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2182 2013-03-21 18:10:14 <sipa> Liquid error: undefined method `exist?' for Dir:Class
2183 2013-03-21 18:10:17 <sipa> on bitcoin.org
2184 2013-03-21 18:10:24 <sipa> /poke saivann BlueMatt tcatm
2185 2013-03-21 18:10:50 <saivann> Very bad
2186 2013-03-21 18:11:03 ielo has joined
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2188 2013-03-21 18:11:30 <saivann> sipa Bluematt tcatm : Let's force downgrade in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.github.com until we fix this?
2189 2013-03-21 18:12:03 <sipa> return to the previous site?
2190 2013-03-21 18:12:22 <saivann> sipa : temporarily, until someone can test this on the VM machien
2191 2013-03-21 18:12:30 <sipa> ok
2192 2013-03-21 18:12:34 <sipa> go ahead?
2193 2013-03-21 18:12:55 <saivann> I'm taking care to bring back the previous site.
2194 2013-03-21 18:12:55 kadoban has joined
2195 2013-03-21 18:13:00 HiWEB has joined
2196 2013-03-21 18:14:12 <saivann> sipa Bluematt tcatm : That seems to be caused by Ruby version on the VM script that does not support exists?
2197 2013-03-21 18:15:09 <sipa> saivann: i know nothing about websites, ruby or the VM; just reporting the problem :)
2198 2013-03-21 18:16:06 pigeons_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
2199 2013-03-21 18:17:28 <saivann> I think we won't need to downgrade, that will be easy to fix
2200 2013-03-21 18:17:41 <BlueMatt> all I know is the vm is debian 6
2201 2013-03-21 18:17:53 <BlueMatt> so...probably whatever version of ruby is default on debian 6
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2204 2013-03-21 18:18:18 TheLordOfTime has joined
2205 2013-03-21 18:19:35 <saivann> I pushed a fix, let's see how the build script will react to this one.
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2209 2013-03-21 18:22:56 <saivann> Good, it worked like a charm this time
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2214 2013-03-21 18:27:49 <sipa> ah, now the webwallets also work here
2215 2013-03-21 18:27:52 <sipa> saivann: nice work
2216 2013-03-21 18:27:59 <saivann> sipa : thanks!
2217 2013-03-21 18:28:55 HM2 has joined
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2219 2013-03-21 18:29:44 <gavinandresen> saivann: yay! very nice!
2220 2013-03-21 18:30:02 <TheLordOfTime> i think the UI is borked...
2221 2013-03-21 18:30:27 <TheLordOfTime> i'm at 226,021 blocks and counting, but the green 'Catching up' progress bar is missing.
2222 2013-03-21 18:30:47 <BlueMatt> how many peers do you have?
2223 2013-03-21 18:31:02 stalled has joined
2224 2013-03-21 18:31:07 <TheLordOfTime> 16 connections to the bitcoin network (I'm assuming that's what you mean)
2225 2013-03-21 18:31:11 <gmaxwell> TheLordOfTime: the progress bar goes away when its almost done.
2226 2013-03-21 18:31:14 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,blocks
2227 2013-03-21 18:31:14 <gribble> 227199
2228 2013-03-21 18:31:27 <TheLordOfTime> gmaxwell, i don't see how 226021 is anywhere near "almost done"
2229 2013-03-21 18:31:45 <TheLordOfTime> given the number of blocks is 227,199
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2231 2013-03-21 18:31:58 <saivann> :) I'm very glad that this project ended up to be concrete. Yet I keep in mind all comments I received and I plan to continue improving what we have.
2232 2013-03-21 18:32:29 <gmaxwell> TheLordOfTime: you're less than a half percent of blocks remaining. :)
2233 2013-03-21 18:32:42 <TheLordOfTime> hmm... okay interesting development
2234 2013-03-21 18:32:47 <gonffen_> it only seems to show the bar when it is verifying a block?
2235 2013-03-21 18:32:48 <TheLordOfTime> and this may just be a bug with the other nodes, but...
2236 2013-03-21 18:33:01 <gmaxwell> TheLordOfTime: IIRC it goes away when there is less than 1% remaining.
2237 2013-03-21 18:33:05 <TheLordOfTime> the debug window shows "Estimated total blocks" at 226325
2238 2013-03-21 18:33:19 <gmaxwell> TheLordOfTime: that estimate is very rough.
2239 2013-03-21 18:33:29 <TheLordOfTime> gmaxwell, okay, that explains the green bar reappearing
2240 2013-03-21 18:33:51 <TheLordOfTime> but doesn't explain the behavior overall (failure to see all blocks will get noobs annoyed/$insertvulgartermshere)
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2243 2013-03-21 18:34:30 <gmaxwell> TheLordOfTime: part of the reason the indicator goes away is to hide the fact that the count is not exactly accurate.
2244 2013-03-21 18:34:53 <gmaxwell> The next version of bitcoin will provide time based estimates which will be more helpful.
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2247 2013-03-21 18:37:31 <gavinandresen> speaking of the next version of bitcoin… we should start looking at pull requests and thinking about getting a 0.8.2 out
2248 2013-03-21 18:37:41 MJR_ has quit (Quit: MJR_)
2249 2013-03-21 18:38:12 <gavinandresen> well, look at pull requests and high-priority bugs
2250 2013-03-21 18:39:53 MJR_ has joined
2251 2013-03-21 18:41:05 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: someone, probably me, needs to fix the error behavior for RPC.  On error, it breaks the HTTP connection, even if HTTP/1.1 keep-alive was requested.  Unexpected and not spec.  It should just return the JSON error in HTTP response, then cycle around for another HTTP request.
2252 2013-03-21 18:41:24 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: Net effect, simple JSON requests like "getblock SOME_BIG_HEIGHT" kill the TCP cxn
2253 2013-03-21 18:41:36 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: sounds like an easy fix
2254 2013-03-21 18:42:22 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I'd like to pull the thread/shutdown cleanup work before messing with that, though
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2262 2013-03-21 18:49:37 <seba--> why is the transaction fee not set up by the network?
2263 2013-03-21 18:49:47 <seba--> the same way as computational difficulty is
2264 2013-03-21 18:49:59 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2265 2013-03-21 18:50:18 <gmaxwell> seba--: because it cannot be.
2266 2013-03-21 18:50:28 nus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2267 2013-03-21 18:50:31 <seba--> gmaxwell, why it cannot be?
2268 2013-03-21 18:50:49 <Eleuthria> Not everybody has the same transactions in their memorypool
2269 2013-03-21 18:50:55 <gmaxwell> seba--: the network can't force a miner to accept a transaction that it doesn't want to accept.  "oops, I didn't hear of that one" .. and it can't tell if a miner is refunding fees behind the scenes.
2270 2013-03-21 18:51:10 <gmaxwell> (or getting paid behind the scenes, for that matter)
2271 2013-03-21 18:51:28 datagutt has joined
2272 2013-03-21 18:51:37 <seba--> i don't understand who sets up transaction fees exactly
2273 2013-03-21 18:51:41 <gmaxwell> seba--: also, it's not a scale free parameter. Sane fees depends on the external valuation of bitcoin— something the network can't measure.
2274 2013-03-21 18:52:31 Nothing4You has quit (Quit: Leaving_x)
2275 2013-03-21 18:52:55 <seba--> gmaxwell, well for example i own 0.25 LTC, if i want to send 0.01 LTC to someone, it wants that i pay 0.1 LTC transaction fee, i don't get who set up that?
2276 2013-03-21 18:53:01 <MC-Droid> has anyone ever attempted a side chain specificslly.fot.timestamping thing
2277 2013-03-21 18:53:05 <MC-Droid> like documents
2278 2013-03-21 18:53:11 <MC-Droid> could be merge mined right
2279 2013-03-21 18:53:12 <gmaxwell> seba--: well thats litecoin, you're in the wrong channel.
2280 2013-03-21 18:53:35 <seba--> gmaxwell, it's not that different, i think the underlying principle is the same
2281 2013-03-21 18:53:43 <gmaxwell> Whatever litecoin does is different than bitcoin there.... a 0.1 BTC fee is not possible in the default settings of the reference bitcoin software.
2282 2013-03-21 18:53:45 <seba--> gmaxwell, they've said i should go there
2283 2013-03-21 18:53:53 <seba--> *here
2284 2013-03-21 18:53:57 Ac-town has left ()
2285 2013-03-21 18:54:04 <seba--> gmaxwell, i see
2286 2013-03-21 18:54:14 nus has joined
2287 2013-03-21 18:54:49 <gmaxwell> seba--: the user does— other than the fact that there is some baseline anti-dos stuff that causes peers to not relay transactions if they look objectively like spam unless they have a small fee (0.0001 BTC/Kbyte)... and thats just set by the developers of the software in use— it doesn't have to be, and isn't, completely consistent across the network.
2288 2013-03-21 18:55:07 <gmaxwell> It just has to be _something_ or jerks will be able to flood the network until its a smoking crater.
2289 2013-03-21 18:55:27 rdponticelli1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2290 2013-03-21 18:55:34 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2291 2013-03-21 18:55:51 <seba--> gmaxwell, yes i understand, but i love the whole idea of cryptocurrency especially for micropayments
2292 2013-03-21 18:56:16 <gmaxwell> Depending on what you mean by "micropayments" blockchain cryptocurrencies are not a good match.
2293 2013-03-21 18:56:23 Joric has joined
2294 2013-03-21 18:56:26 <Eleuthria> Micropayments can be built into an off-chain system easily.  They're not a good idea for the actual blockchain.
2295 2013-03-21 18:56:31 <seba--> hm
2296 2013-03-21 18:56:34 D34TH has joined
2297 2013-03-21 18:56:45 <pigeons> use gmaxwell's favorite ripple.com
2298 2013-03-21 18:56:45 <seba--> so basically you're saying it's not good for micropayments
2299 2013-03-21 18:56:52 <bVector> seba--: you can send transactions with no fees, but you'll be relying on someone's generosity to include your transaction to get confirmations
2300 2013-03-21 18:57:01 <gmaxwell> When some people say micropayments they mean like.. giving femtocents automatically to everyone who's shoes you like as you pass them on the street, or whatever.  Blockchain cryptocurrency is fundimentally poor for that kind of usage.
2301 2013-03-21 18:57:03 <seba--> ripple is made for micropayments?
2302 2013-03-21 18:57:11 <gmaxwell> seba--: he's trolling.
2303 2013-03-21 18:57:35 <pigeons> seba--: yeah. i joke cause the current implementation is somewhat unliked by some
2304 2013-03-21 18:57:41 <seba--> so there's no micropayment service
2305 2013-03-21 18:57:51 <bVector> s/ayment/enis/
2306 2013-03-21 18:57:56 sgornick has joined
2307 2013-03-21 18:58:07 <gmaxwell> seba--: there have been many— for example, mtgox codes are a micropayment service too.
2308 2013-03-21 18:58:07 <pigeons> but no it touts micropayments at least and is off-blockchain settlement of your btc micropayments
2309 2013-03-21 18:58:08 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2310 2013-03-21 18:58:10 <seba--> micropayments could revolutionize the world
2311 2013-03-21 18:58:21 <bVector> that sounds like hippy stuff
2312 2013-03-21 18:58:38 <gmaxwell> Maybe. Though for something so supposidly revolutionary they've been rather resistant to existing. :P
2313 2013-03-21 18:59:00 <pigeons> micropayments have been "coming soon" so long they are the original bfl for decades
2314 2013-03-21 18:59:27 <seba--> not hippy, but like
2315 2013-03-21 18:59:27 <seba--> instead of "liking" a blog post, you could just send him 1 cent
2316 2013-03-21 18:59:27 <seba--> or even less, doesn't really matter
2317 2013-03-21 18:59:39 <gmaxwell> bVector: pretty sure "hippy" implies that you don't pay except in unreturned loaned houshold goods and people sleeping on your couch.
2318 2013-03-21 18:59:59 <seba--> well there is no technological implementation afaik
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2320 2013-03-21 19:00:14 <seba--> except centralized systems
2321 2013-03-21 19:00:14 <seba--> fuck that
2322 2013-03-21 19:00:47 <gmaxwell> seba--: yea, can't realisitcally use a blockchain cryptocurrency as a payment network for that. Blockchain payments are predicated on global visiblity.  But you could easily do such low value transactions in something external.
2323 2013-03-21 19:01:01 <gmaxwell> seba--: you're worried about centeralization risk ... for transactions worth less than a cent? :P
2324 2013-03-21 19:01:16 <Happzz> can i somehow sign a message from commandline (bitcoin-qt)
2325 2013-03-21 19:01:36 <bVector> signrawtransaction?
2326 2013-03-21 19:01:40 <gmaxwell> Happzz: sure, bitcoind help signmessage   (after setting up your bitcoin-qt with server=1)
2327 2013-03-21 19:01:44 <bVector> er, signmessage
2328 2013-03-21 19:01:54 joey_meyer has joined
2329 2013-03-21 19:02:22 <seba--> gmaxwell, i don't really care about 1 cent per se, it's the concept i care about
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2332 2013-03-21 19:03:35 <gmaxwell> seba--: in any case, decentralization is quite expensive and expensive processing is incompatible with "micro" for some value of micro.
2333 2013-03-21 19:03:39 agricocb has joined
2334 2013-03-21 19:05:04 <seba--> gmaxwell, i'll think about it, maybe i get a good idea
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2340 2013-03-21 19:09:45 <seba--> gmaxwell, maybe just a service which uses existing cryptocurrency
2341 2013-03-21 19:09:49 <seba--> i'll see
2342 2013-03-21 19:09:50 <seba--> hm
2343 2013-03-21 19:09:59 <seba--> maybe already something exists which i don't know
2344 2013-03-21 19:09:59 <seba--> lol
2345 2013-03-21 19:10:53 <flyingkiwiguy> seba--: http://transcopyright.org/hcoinRemarks-D28.html
2346 2013-03-21 19:11:10 <gmaxwell> seba--: thats what I'd suggest. Well many things have existed. As I mentioned before, mtgox codes are such a thing, but perhaps not the most sutiable.
2347 2013-03-21 19:11:36 <flyingkiwiguy> Project Xanadu was the inspiration for HTML
2348 2013-03-21 19:12:33 Eleuthria has left ()
2349 2013-03-21 19:13:33 <seba--> gmaxwell, i'm opposed to centralization because that gives a few people control
2350 2013-03-21 19:13:42 <seba--> nobody should have such control
2351 2013-03-21 19:14:17 discrete has joined
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2359 2013-03-21 19:20:19 <Darkneo> Hmm, does anyone know of a php wallet?
2360 2013-03-21 19:20:46 * sipa wouldn't trust his money to PHP
2361 2013-03-21 19:21:02 <Darkneo> ruby?
2362 2013-03-21 19:23:10 <Darkneo> In a web development environment, I want to use something other than bitcoind which I feel has a lot of security flaws, especially with everything being stored in a wallet.dat, I want to be able to store everything in a way that would be based on the users password so they feel safe that even if I wanted to, I coudln't access it
2363 2013-03-21 19:23:32 <gmaxwell> lol
2364 2013-03-21 19:24:39 <Darkneo> I would love your input gmaxwell
2365 2013-03-21 19:24:42 <grau_> Darkneo: you should not have their keys in the first place. not a matte rof storing them
2366 2013-03-21 19:24:45 <gmaxwell> Darkneo: please don't go into the business of handling other people's money until you're fully prepared to deal with the enormous cost and trouble that doing so is... the bitcoin econonmy has more than enough "I kan kode 31337 phpness! I'll run a bank!"
2367 2013-03-21 19:26:19 pgp has joined
2368 2013-03-21 19:27:33 <Diablo-D3> !ticker
2369 2013-03-21 19:27:33 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 72.20000, Best ask: 72.50000, Bid-ask spread: 0.30000, Last trade: 72.20000, 24 hour volume: 97238.15310790, 24 hour low: 63.00000, 24 hour high: 74.90000, 24 hour vwap: 67.42699
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2373 2013-03-21 19:29:18 rbecker is now known as RBecker
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2378 2013-03-21 19:34:37 <Eneerge> lmao
2379 2013-03-21 19:36:12 Nick___ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2380 2013-03-21 19:38:40 <sipa> my crawler just hit 5800 reachable nodes
2381 2013-03-21 19:38:48 <sipa> i've never seen it above 4000-something
2382 2013-03-21 19:38:55 petertodd has joined
2383 2013-03-21 19:39:07 <gmaxwell> sybil attack!
2384 2013-03-21 19:39:15 <gavinandresen> sipa: good, with the bitcoin.org homepage switch we will probably see a lot more SPV clients
2385 2013-03-21 19:39:41 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
2386 2013-03-21 19:39:52 <gribble> 51580.971183225432
2387 2013-03-21 19:40:03 <sipa> ^- also a record, i guess
2388 2013-03-21 19:41:02 kerum has joined
2389 2013-03-21 19:41:14 <sipa> also, only 24 non-canonical sigs in the last 5300
2390 2013-03-21 19:41:17 <sipa> *txn
2391 2013-03-21 19:41:45 <petertodd> sipa: Are they all in bare OP_CHECKMULTISIG tx's? Probably all my fault.
2392 2013-03-21 19:42:20 <sipa> petertodd: can you tell me a txid of one?
2393 2013-03-21 19:42:46 <gmaxwell> does multibit not have a way to set a proxy or even to -connect a particular peer? :(
2394 2013-03-21 19:42:57 alexwaters has joined
2395 2013-03-21 19:43:30 bakingbread has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8)
2396 2013-03-21 19:43:31 <sipa> petertodd: i don't count noncanonical ones which fail anyway
2397 2013-03-21 19:43:40 <sipa> only valid sigs that are noncanonical
2398 2013-03-21 19:43:47 bakingbread has joined
2399 2013-03-21 19:43:59 TheLordOfTime has left ("Leaving")
2400 2013-03-21 19:44:54 <petertodd> sipa: 6341d13d3fc3fb71c1a90265183e8d34b78fbabf95ef287fd7a46d41f4932a4f
2401 2013-03-21 19:44:55 <sipa> petertodd: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/noncan.txt
2402 2013-03-21 19:45:05 <gmaxwell> multibit has the bad bitcoinj pingflooding behavior. :(
2403 2013-03-21 19:45:07 <sipa> ^- last two hours
2404 2013-03-21 19:46:02 <petertodd> sipa: Ah, yeah mine will be ignored then.
2405 2013-03-21 19:46:49 <petertodd> sipa: I set the first byte to 0 w/ 32bytes of digest following. Is that better or worse than finding a seemingly valid one by brute force search?
2406 2013-03-21 19:47:16 * jgarzik waves at petertodd 
2407 2013-03-21 19:47:23 <jgarzik> petertodd: See email?  I give in.
2408 2013-03-21 19:47:43 <petertodd> jgarzik: Lol, thanks. I'll use tabs for the next kernel patch I promise.
2409 2013-03-21 19:47:59 MJR_ has quit (Quit: MJR_)
2410 2013-03-21 19:48:10 lodse has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2411 2013-03-21 19:48:50 nOgAnOo has quit (Quit: Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against yo)
2412 2013-03-21 19:48:59 nelisky_ has joined
2413 2013-03-21 19:49:16 <jgarzik> petertodd: I don't want "it's not pythonic" to drive away potential developers
2414 2013-03-21 19:49:31 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2415 2013-03-21 19:49:39 <jgarzik> petertodd: python-bitcoinlib Shall Be The One True Lib
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2417 2013-03-21 19:49:41 nelisky_ is now known as nelisky
2418 2013-03-21 19:50:25 <petertodd> jgarzik: Cool, been a bit busy, but I'm close to sending you a pull-req for the unittests.
2419 2013-03-21 19:51:29 ashod has joined
2420 2013-03-21 19:52:00 <ashod> good morning
2421 2013-03-21 19:53:51 <ashod> anyone home ?
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2428 2013-03-21 20:02:23 <coingenuity> gavinandresen: minor suggestion re: new changes @ bitcoin.org; can you have the webdev enable a js-lacking friendly version of the site so that its not mandatory to load static html resources via js? ty
2429 2013-03-21 20:02:30 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
2430 2013-03-21 20:03:04 <ashod> gavin are you here ?
2431 2013-03-21 20:03:21 <sipa> coingenuity: talk to saivann
2432 2013-03-21 20:03:53 <gmaxwell> Does this swing java stuff that multibit uses have a different look and feel in windows?
2433 2013-03-21 20:04:03 <coingenuity> sipa: kk , saivann^ see above, minor suggestion for you
2434 2013-03-21 20:04:06 <coingenuity> tx
2435 2013-03-21 20:04:13 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: no
2436 2013-03-21 20:04:28 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: this is why eclipse invented their toolkit so they can be native everywhere
2437 2013-03-21 20:04:40 <Diablo-D3> forget the name of it though
2438 2013-03-21 20:04:45 <saivann> coingenuity : You are probably refering to the client wallets list?
2439 2013-03-21 20:05:02 bakingbread has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8)
2440 2013-03-21 20:05:10 <gmaxwell> saivann: if you turn of JS the site displays nothing at all.
2441 2013-03-21 20:05:17 <ashod> I've been doing some development on android natively, - in C;  my first language though is assembler, - and I think it might be possible to develop an embedded mobile version of bitcoind - does this idea sounnd too out there >?
2442 2013-03-21 20:05:22 <gmaxwell> I expect this will probably result in the site completely vanishing from google results.
2443 2013-03-21 20:05:28 bakingbread has joined
2444 2013-03-21 20:05:30 <gmaxwell> Vinnie_win: congrats, you get your wish. :P
2445 2013-03-21 20:05:38 <saivann> gmaxwell : no, I added sitemaps to handle this
2446 2013-03-21 20:06:16 <ashod> every mobile is a running bitcoin server - would that be strange ?
2447 2013-03-21 20:06:20 <coingenuity> saivann: i'm referring to the site itself- it won't load without javascript enabled in one's browser
2448 2013-03-21 20:06:46 <coingenuity> but once you enable JS, it just renders out fairly vanilla HTML to ya
2449 2013-03-21 20:06:48 <saivann> Originally, I was using 301 redirects to redirect to /en/ or /fr/ but this cannot be done with github pages. JS was the only solution so far.. But I might at least put the /en/ index file into /index.html and that would fix that
2450 2013-03-21 20:07:07 <coingenuity> ahhh so you're using it for language redirects?
2451 2013-03-21 20:07:10 <gmaxwell> saivann: maybe things have changed, but it used to be that search engines penalize sites when they thing the content displayed to users is different from content displayed to users, and having the whole page drawn by JS would trigger that.
2452 2013-03-21 20:07:16 <saivann> coingenuity : Yep
2453 2013-03-21 20:07:28 <coingenuity> saivann: just push users with PHP via sending Location: header
2454 2013-03-21 20:07:35 <coingenuity> based on language locale
2455 2013-03-21 20:07:40 <gmaxwell> saivann: yea, making it not fail to give anything at all would be a good idea. A lot of security paranoids browse without JS until click (via noscript)
2456 2013-03-21 20:07:42 <saivann> gmaxwell : The page isn't drawn with js, it's a simple redirect. We should not be penalized in my opinion
2457 2013-03-21 20:07:59 <saivann> Will fix this in a few mintues
2458 2013-03-21 20:07:59 <sipa> it sounds like a very weird thing to require JS for
2459 2013-03-21 20:08:03 lodse has joined
2460 2013-03-21 20:08:10 <coingenuity> ty saivann :)
2461 2013-03-21 20:08:46 <sipa> great
2462 2013-03-21 20:09:10 <saivann> sipa : It's hackish, but that all that githubs allows us to use for redirects. And JS is not requred elsewhere, except for the web-wallet warning thing.
2463 2013-03-21 20:09:25 <saivann> coingenuity : Thanks for the feedback!
2464 2013-03-21 20:09:48 <coingenuity> my pleasure, if anything glaring shows up i'll let you know
2465 2013-03-21 20:09:57 <coingenuity> but it looks pretty good for now :)
2466 2013-03-21 20:10:15 <coingenuity> also: keyboard navigation works, which is nice- lots of sites don't care about that
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2474 2013-03-21 20:14:41 <kylls> hi all
2475 2013-03-21 20:14:49 <kylls> someone with flash miner?
2476 2013-03-21 20:15:08 jurov is now known as billg
2477 2013-03-21 20:15:21 agricocb has joined
2478 2013-03-21 20:15:21 <kylls> anyone interested talk to me
2479 2013-03-21 20:16:27 <saivann> coingenuity : Thanks :)
2480 2013-03-21 20:16:34 <saivann> Fix pushed
2481 2013-03-21 20:16:46 <saivann> Should be up to date in ~15 minutes
2482 2013-03-21 20:20:22 grau_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2486 2013-03-21 20:22:08 billg is now known as jurov
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2492 2013-03-21 20:24:16 <realazthat> ahoy
2493 2013-03-21 20:25:01 BurtyB has joined
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2495 2013-03-21 20:25:10 <realazthat> I'm trying to use https://github.com/warner/python-ecdsa a python lib, to verify OP_CHECKSIG
2496 2013-03-21 20:25:49 <realazthat> I'm wondering how the public key is formatted so I can load the key in
2497 2013-03-21 20:26:48 <sipa> 0x04 + x (32-byte big endian) + y (32-byte big endiam)
2498 2013-03-21 20:27:00 <sipa> or 0x02/0x03 + x
2499 2013-03-21 20:27:24 <sipa> where 0x02 or 0x03 is determined by whether y is odd or even
2500 2013-03-21 20:28:17 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
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2503 2013-03-21 20:28:40 HiWEB has joined
2504 2013-03-21 20:28:45 <realazthat> ok ty
2505 2013-03-21 20:28:55 <realazthat> does the first byte matter at all?
2506 2013-03-21 20:32:07 <sipa> yes
2507 2013-03-21 20:32:46 <sipa> 0x02, 0x03 and 0x04 have very distinct meanings
2508 2013-03-21 20:33:12 aethero has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
2509 2013-03-21 20:34:33 <realazthat> oh you mean 0x02 only stores x, and implies y somehow?
2510 2013-03-21 20:34:57 <gmaxwell> correct.
2511 2013-03-21 20:35:05 <gmaxwell> 0x02/0x03.
2512 2013-03-21 20:35:27 <coingenuity> saivann: very nice :D just checked, works good now
2513 2013-03-21 20:35:31 Ashaman has joined
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2515 2013-03-21 20:36:21 <seba--> gmaxwell, i might have an idea, but it would involve public disclosure of how much money each has hm lol
2516 2013-03-21 20:36:49 <gmaxwell> seba--: an idea about what?
2517 2013-03-21 20:37:01 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
2518 2013-03-21 20:37:18 <gmaxwell> micropayments? Is your problem about making sure banks are not fractional reserve?
2519 2013-03-21 20:37:24 clr_ has joined
2520 2013-03-21 20:37:30 normanrichards has joined
2521 2013-03-21 20:37:33 joey_meyer has joined
2522 2013-03-21 20:37:36 <gmaxwell> If so, there has been extensive discussion on that subject I could send you.
2523 2013-03-21 20:38:12 <seba--> gmaxwell, link?
2524 2013-03-21 20:38:26 <gmaxwell> seba--: gimme email, I forward.
2525 2013-03-21 20:38:33 <seba--> gmaxwell, sebaseba@gmail.com
2526 2013-03-21 20:40:34 oleganza has joined
2527 2013-03-21 20:43:41 space_cadet has joined
2528 2013-03-21 20:45:45 <realazthat> ok, so I figured out how to make it eat a 64 byte pair
2529 2013-03-21 20:45:55 Lolcust has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2530 2013-03-21 20:45:57 <realazthat> how would I handle a 0x02/0x03
2531 2013-03-21 20:46:05 <realazthat> I assume it would be 33 bytes in that case?
2532 2013-03-21 20:46:12 <realazthat> and if so, how to generate the y
2533 2013-03-21 20:46:31 Gigitrix-Phone has joined
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2537 2013-03-21 20:52:14 <sipa> realazthat: math :)
2538 2013-03-21 20:52:34 <sipa> i'm sure an EC library can deal with compressed public keys
2539 2013-03-21 20:53:48 TD has joined
2540 2013-03-21 20:54:04 <TD> BlueMatt: lol
2541 2013-03-21 20:54:07 <TD> BlueMatt: guess i should fix it then
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2546 2013-03-21 20:57:06 <n5> what happened with bitcoin.org
2547 2013-03-21 20:57:35 <BlueMatt> TD: probably...
2548 2013-03-21 20:57:38 <TD> BlueMatt: i think that whole synchronized block can go away actually. it's not needed
2549 2013-03-21 20:57:49 <TD> i mean, the lock can go away.
2550 2013-03-21 20:58:02 <TD> selectDownloadPeer locks the list whilst making a copy of it and then operates entirely on the copy
2551 2013-03-21 20:58:20 <TD> there is a race though - by the time it's picked the best peer, the list of peers might have changed again
2552 2013-03-21 20:58:42 safra has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2553 2013-03-21 20:58:57 <n5> is bitcoin.org hacked?
2554 2013-03-21 20:59:00 <jgarzik> n5: no
2555 2013-03-21 20:59:08 MJR__ has joined
2556 2013-03-21 20:59:09 <TD> n5: new website
2557 2013-03-21 20:59:20 <BlueMatt> general on PeerGroup: it makes quite a few of assumptions that are really only valid if you're using bitcoinj as a bitcoin client
2558 2013-03-21 20:59:43 <n5> why no download link to bitcoin client on site?
2559 2013-03-21 20:59:57 <sipa> click 'choose your wallet'
2560 2013-03-21 21:00:15 <n5> I see some android client and multibit
2561 2013-03-21 21:00:21 <TD> BlueMatt: actually, just replacing that synchronized block with the peergroup lock should do the trick, i think.
2562 2013-03-21 21:00:27 <lianj> TD: need some css work
2563 2013-03-21 21:00:30 <n5> no default client link
2564 2013-03-21 21:00:31 <TD> BlueMatt: as opposed to what? a network crawler?
2565 2013-03-21 21:00:51 <TD> n5: see the "original bitcoin client" link
2566 2013-03-21 21:00:55 <TD> n5: on the choose your wallet page
2567 2013-03-21 21:01:05 <jgarzik> n5: I was a little disappointed too
2568 2013-03-21 21:01:09 <n5> ah i see it
2569 2013-03-21 21:01:15 <n5> well what is strange experience
2570 2013-03-21 21:01:19 <BlueMatt> TD: eg I want to download from one peer but be connected to more than one, but you cant readily tell PeerGroup not to download if you give it a chain (afaict)
2571 2013-03-21 21:01:22 <jgarzik> n5: at the de-emphasis of the Satoshi client
2572 2013-03-21 21:01:24 <gonffen_> win 12
2573 2013-03-21 21:01:29 <gonffen_> fuck
2574 2013-03-21 21:01:32 <jgarzik> IMNSHO still the most secure
2575 2013-03-21 21:01:34 <n5> you should make it more visible
2576 2013-03-21 21:01:38 <bVector> gonffen_: you have won 12 internets
2577 2013-03-21 21:01:39 <jgarzik> +1
2578 2013-03-21 21:01:44 <n5> it is less visible, then some multibit
2579 2013-03-21 21:01:56 <gonffen_> bVector: where can I convert those to bitcoin?
2580 2013-03-21 21:02:04 <bVector> on your internets
2581 2013-03-21 21:02:05 <BlueMatt> TD: Peer assumes that you will never use a far-out fastCatchupTime to tell it to never download block bodies as it uses it to determine if headers download is in-progress
2582 2013-03-21 21:02:06 <TD> n5: that's natural over time though …. the qt client isn't user friendly at all
2583 2013-03-21 21:02:09 <realazthat> sipa: ok
2584 2013-03-21 21:02:22 <realazthat> sipa: the library I am using is expecting 64 bytes
2585 2013-03-21 21:02:28 <realazthat> at least in the way I am using it
2586 2013-03-21 21:02:29 RoboTeddy has joined
2587 2013-03-21 21:02:33 <TD> BlueMatt: yeah. the whole codebase has been developed with the android app as the number 1 priority, simple as that
2588 2013-03-21 21:02:39 <BlueMatt> TD: (which based on the api appears to be what you would do)
2589 2013-03-21 21:02:42 <jgarzik> bVector, gonffen_: take it to #bitcoin-offtopic, please
2590 2013-03-21 21:03:08 <TD> BlueMatt: i mean i tried to avoid making it pointlessly less general along the way, but, it's very focused on gui spv wallets still. one day i hope it has more features for other use ases
2591 2013-03-21 21:03:46 <TD> n5: one thing that is weird is the question mark boxes …. those weren't there before?
2592 2013-03-21 21:04:00 <TD> n5: i'll ask saivann about it. for sure, there are always ways to improve it
2593 2013-03-21 21:04:15 <BlueMatt> TD: yea :(
2594 2013-03-21 21:04:42 <n5> TD well, i think bitcoin-qt is friendly enough, but well
2595 2013-03-21 21:04:50 <saivann> n5 : mark boxes?
2596 2013-03-21 21:05:01 <lianj> http://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-for-developers - "Cheap micro payments" is that valid?
2597 2013-03-21 21:05:26 <sipa> lianj: imho, no, but others may disagree
2598 2013-03-21 21:05:28 MJR__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2599 2013-03-21 21:05:41 <n5> big download button
2600 2013-03-21 21:05:48 <jgarzik> lianj: ugh
2601 2013-03-21 21:05:48 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
2602 2013-03-21 21:05:56 <jgarzik> lianj: I missed that one.  Disagre++
2603 2013-03-21 21:05:56 <BlueMatt> TD: anyway, I think the only api in bitcoinj that seems very non-generic is peer[group]
2604 2013-03-21 21:06:00 <jgarzik> *Disagree
2605 2013-03-21 21:06:04 <BlueMatt> TD: maybe only PeerGroup and not Peer
2606 2013-03-21 21:06:12 <TD> saivann: hey there! :)
2607 2013-03-21 21:06:15 <TD> saivann: congrats on the launch
2608 2013-03-21 21:06:25 <TD> lianj: yes
2609 2013-03-21 21:06:27 <saivann> TD : Thanks for your work on this :)
2610 2013-03-21 21:06:29 <TD> lianj: it is correct
2611 2013-03-21 21:06:38 Lolcust has joined
2612 2013-03-21 21:06:41 <TD> saivann: sending you a couple more comments via email
2613 2013-03-21 21:06:49 <saivann> TD : Perfect
2614 2013-03-21 21:07:12 <jgarzik> saivann: satoshi generally did not think of bitcoin as a micro-payments system
2615 2013-03-21 21:07:16 <jgarzik> and I agree
2616 2013-03-21 21:07:39 <bVector> feel like if I sneeze in here I get asked to take it to offtopic
2617 2013-03-21 21:07:43 <bVector> you guys must be robots :P
2618 2013-03-21 21:07:45 <flyingkiwiguy> no reason why you can't do settlement in BTC
2619 2013-03-21 21:07:59 <sipa> TD: there is potential with things like micropayment channels, but in its current form, i think it is generally incorrect to say you can do cheap micropayments
2620 2013-03-21 21:08:31 BTC670 has joined
2621 2013-03-21 21:08:32 <TD> reality disagrees - we see micropayments being used every day. it works. bear in mind the website is comparing it to other payment systems, none of which can even come close.
2622 2013-03-21 21:08:47 <helo> sipa: agree
2623 2013-03-21 21:09:06 <sipa> well, depends on your definition of cheap and of micro, of course
2624 2013-03-21 21:09:16 <TD> jgarzik: satoshi mentioned limits on minimum practical transaction size in his paper as a flaw of existing systems
2625 2013-03-21 21:09:22 <sipa> and it may change over time (in both directions)
2626 2013-03-21 21:09:23 <seba--> 10^-6 BTC is micro
2627 2013-03-21 21:09:26 <gmaxwell> TD: different people mean different things when they talk about micropayments. Many people who come in here are talking about payments under $0.01USD effective value.
2628 2013-03-21 21:09:31 <TD> jgarzik: and obviously, nLockTime and sequence numbers exist for HFT purposes
2629 2013-03-21 21:09:32 <Prattler> micropayment is <$12 according to paypal... Bitcoin *might* work.
2630 2013-03-21 21:09:42 <flyingkiwiguy> you can run your own accounting of micropayments, and every N hours xfer BTC to blance accts
2631 2013-03-21 21:09:51 <TD> with credit cards about the minimum possible size is $1 and that's pushing it (nearly break even)
2632 2013-03-21 21:09:54 normanrichards has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2633 2013-03-21 21:09:57 <TD> at least, those are the figures i used to see bandied about
2634 2013-03-21 21:10:02 <flyingkiwiguy> since the tx change is small it is feasible
2635 2013-03-21 21:10:02 <helo> in general bitcoin is more well suited for transfers of mega-payments than micro-payments
2636 2013-03-21 21:10:05 <TD> so if you can transfer $.01 then you're a micropayment system
2637 2013-03-21 21:10:07 <flyingkiwiguy> *charge
2638 2013-03-21 21:10:15 <Prattler> IMHO, it's dishonest to advertise bitcoin as a micropayment system
2639 2013-03-21 21:10:24 <seba--> it's not a micropayment system
2640 2013-03-21 21:10:30 <flyingkiwiguy> agreed
2641 2013-03-21 21:10:31 <saivann> Agree with TD, we can do very small tx with Bitcoin with very competitive fees, I don't see exactly where the bug is
2642 2013-03-21 21:10:33 <TD> it very clearly is, just go look at the transactions that exist
2643 2013-03-21 21:10:37 BTC670 is now known as syxbit
2644 2013-03-21 21:10:38 <seba--> we need a micropayment system
2645 2013-03-21 21:10:42 <TD> you might not *want* it to be, for whatever reason, but that's how it's used today
2646 2013-03-21 21:10:57 <gmaxwell> Prattler: agreed, at least not without carfully qualifying micropayment. I believe very small (femtopayment? :) ) is a more common assumption of what micro means to people who don't deal with payment syustems often.
2647 2013-03-21 21:10:59 <helo> while we're on the subject... http://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-for-developers says "Authenticity is verified through private keys and double-spend through the Bitcoin network."
2648 2013-03-21 21:11:11 <helo> that sentence does not sense
2649 2013-03-21 21:11:11 <TD> helo: i just sent a correction for that to saivann via email
2650 2013-03-21 21:11:28 <Prattler> TD, putting advertisement like that on bitcoin.org you imply that it bitcoin will always able to support micro-payments. That is not true.
2651 2013-03-21 21:11:31 <helo> great
2652 2013-03-21 21:11:40 <TD> yes, it is true. but PLEASE don't start yet another block size debate.
2653 2013-03-21 21:11:46 <TD> because we're all sick of it
2654 2013-03-21 21:12:01 <gmaxwell> Prattler: please open a pull request.
2655 2013-03-21 21:12:01 Lolcust has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2656 2013-03-21 21:12:06 <TD> if you'd like to argue that the min tx fees should be set to $1 so we're even with paypal, go ahead and submit a pull request for that
2657 2013-03-21 21:12:18 <gmaxwell> TD: come on.
2658 2013-03-21 21:12:22 <sipa> oh please
2659 2013-03-21 21:12:25 * jgarzik rolls eyes
2660 2013-03-21 21:12:36 <gfawkes> dude, i can use bitcoin to send $0.000000725
2661 2013-03-21 21:12:47 <gfawkes> how freakin' micro do you need?
2662 2013-03-21 21:12:56 <Prattler> gfawkes, today, but bitcoin.org should not make promises it will be available in the future
2663 2013-03-21 21:12:59 <lianj> 0.0005 fee is currently $0.04 if you want to send a $0.01 to someone you pay 0.03 for it
2664 2013-03-21 21:13:02 <sipa> gfawkes: not cheaply, compared to its value
2665 2013-03-21 21:13:19 <gmaxwell> Prattler: but don't be silly, keep in mind the site is supposted to be factual and conservative, staying bitcoin's strenghts while being understated when there is risk of overstatement.
2666 2013-03-21 21:13:25 <n5> saivann you definetly need to make default client download link visible, not some hyperlink in text. Noone wants to read a lot of shit, and multibit and some android clients are visible very easy. I noticed bitcoind link like after 8 minutes, then 3 pplz here told me that it is on site :D
2667 2013-03-21 21:13:31 <n5> sorry if i sound to rude
2668 2013-03-21 21:13:37 <gfawkes> to that i say wait until the price gets higher
2669 2013-03-21 21:13:46 <bVector> are we sticking to the assumption that it will always be a USD->BTC->USD transaction?
2670 2013-03-21 21:13:52 <gavinandresen> n5: there is no default client download link now.
2671 2013-03-21 21:13:55 <joe_k> fee simply should be recommended and set by market forces
2672 2013-03-21 21:13:56 <gfawkes> why write code for what will eventually happen anyway?
2673 2013-03-21 21:13:58 <gavinandresen> n5 : … and that is intentional
2674 2013-03-21 21:14:18 <bVector> if not, and we consider btc to be a currency aside from any exchange rate, microtransactions could be anything under .01btc
2675 2013-03-21 21:14:30 <n5> gavinandresen but is it intentional to make bitcoin less visible then multibit? because is it right now
2676 2013-03-21 21:14:32 <saivann> n5 : That was indeed the decision of everyone. However I can make it more visible in the text. I'll think about it.
2677 2013-03-21 21:14:42 <gavinandresen> n5 : sure.  multibit is a better solution for most people.
2678 2013-03-21 21:15:11 <TD> n5: there's a general feeling that Bitcoin-Qt is too resource intensive for mainstream usage. But we still want/need people to run it. Hence the "Be the network" blurb.
2679 2013-03-21 21:15:19 <helo> forcing people to read a bit before downloading a bitcoin client is a good thing
2680 2013-03-21 21:15:21 <bVector> otherwise, you'll have to reevaluate that argument based on every currency it can be exchanged to
2681 2013-03-21 21:15:28 <saivann> And the blockchain might grow a lot in the future
2682 2013-03-21 21:15:29 <n5> ok, cool
2683 2013-03-21 21:15:36 <TD> n5: people who are enthusiastic and want to help out, and can tolerate an app that uses hundreds of megs of ram and takes hours to initialize …. they can grab it right there
2684 2013-03-21 21:15:38 <gavinandresen> the blockchain WILL grow a lot in the future
2685 2013-03-21 21:15:40 <n5> i dont like tbig changes :D
2686 2013-03-21 21:15:57 <TD> n5: heh, you don't like big change but you're involved with bitcoin?
2687 2013-03-21 21:16:01 <TD> n5: bitcoin IS big change :)
2688 2013-03-21 21:16:03 <saivann> :)
2689 2013-03-21 21:16:04 <helo> burn
2690 2013-03-21 21:16:08 <n5> maybe all of you are right.
2691 2013-03-21 21:16:09 <TD> h
2692 2013-03-21 21:16:11 <TD> heh
2693 2013-03-21 21:16:48 <n5> TD two years ago i was more easily accepting big changes
2694 2013-03-21 21:16:50 <TD> you know, multibit definitely has its flaws, ye gods it uses my code …. definitely has serious problems. but, it gets us to the point where we're saying "if you build a P2P, SPV client that is competitive, you can be listed on bitcoin.org"
2695 2013-03-21 21:17:00 <TD> so it can also spurn some competition. and i'd like to see competition for multibit
2696 2013-03-21 21:17:09 <TD> n5: yeah, we're all getting old ...
2697 2013-03-21 21:17:10 kerum has joined
2698 2013-03-21 21:17:13 <gmaxwell> TD: do you use multibit?
2699 2013-03-21 21:17:28 <TD> yeah i use it sometimes. i use all three (multibit, bitcoin wallet, bitcoin-qt)
2700 2013-03-21 21:17:42 <TD> multibit only got wallet encryption very recently
2701 2013-03-21 21:17:51 <TD> so most of my balance is still in an encrypted bitcoin-qt wallet
2702 2013-03-21 21:18:00 <gmaxwell> TD: is there any way to get it to use a proxy? or connect to a specific node?  I can't find anything.
2703 2013-03-21 21:18:19 <TD> gmaxwell: there's a setting to make it use a specific node. i forgot exactly how. it doesn't support SOCKS at the moment.
2704 2013-03-21 21:18:21 kerum has left ()
2705 2013-03-21 21:18:23 <gmaxwell> But I think the UI is interacting poorly with my system so it might be that I'm missing a menu.
2706 2013-03-21 21:18:34 <TD> some config file or something similar
2707 2013-03-21 21:19:19 <TD> if you want to use tor then you still need bitcoin-qt. or runsocks.
2708 2013-03-21 21:20:34 <gmaxwell> doesn't work in torify here, never makes a connection for some reason. I assume because of something to do with dns.
2709 2013-03-21 21:20:51 <TD> yeah
2710 2013-03-21 21:21:30 FredEE has joined
2711 2013-03-21 21:21:37 <BlueMatt> TD: is there a reason for onPeerConnected after VerMessage not VerAck?
2712 2013-03-21 21:21:59 <TD> i have to say, i'm a bit nervous about recommending anything bitcoinj based to end users. it still is incomplete in important ways. but then again, even with ultraprune, the startup delays of bitcoin-qt are getting untenable …. just have to hold on and work hard i guess
2713 2013-03-21 21:22:13 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2714 2013-03-21 21:22:16 <TD> BlueMatt: no. i was thinking that earlier today. it should probably be after verack.
2715 2013-03-21 21:22:18 FredEE has quit (Client Quit)
2716 2013-03-21 21:22:30 <BlueMatt> TD: Im running dnsseed with it after verack atm and its working fine
2717 2013-03-21 21:22:32 <gmaxwell> Kinda unimpressed with the user expirence of multibit. It took 30 minutes to sync up, the ui is really kludgy, though I was hoping it was better on other platforms.
2718 2013-03-21 21:22:43 <gmaxwell> Kinda scarry that something makes bitcoin-qt seem user friendly.
2719 2013-03-21 21:22:47 <gmaxwell> :-/
2720 2013-03-21 21:22:51 <TD> oh. the sync time is a few seconds in the next release.
2721 2013-03-21 21:22:57 <BlueMatt> sync times should be much better soon
2722 2013-03-21 21:22:58 <BlueMatt> oh
2723 2013-03-21 21:23:12 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
2724 2013-03-21 21:23:20 <TD> bitcoinj master has a much more efficient block store and has regular checkpoints
2725 2013-03-21 21:23:28 <gmaxwell> TD: it wasn't pulling full blocks at least (I pcapped the syncup) it was just pulling headers.
2726 2013-03-21 21:23:31 <gmaxwell> ah.
2727 2013-03-21 21:23:33 <TD> yes
2728 2013-03-21 21:23:46 <TD> the preview version of the android app at least can go from first run to fully synced in about 5 seconds
2729 2013-03-21 21:23:51 <TD> assuming it can find some 0.8 peers
2730 2013-03-21 21:24:05 <BlueMatt> dnsseeds should be returning 0.8-only when the switch happens
2731 2013-03-21 21:24:09 <TD> but neither release is out yet. getting bitcoinj 0.8 released so there can be stable android/multibit releases is the next thing on my todo list
2732 2013-03-21 21:24:13 <BlueMatt> I may set mine soon so I dont gorget
2733 2013-03-21 21:24:14 <BlueMatt> forget
2734 2013-03-21 21:24:23 nus has joined
2735 2013-03-21 21:24:28 <petertodd> TD: Does bitcoinj have RPC, specifically supporting something similar to getblock? (obvs w/ just headers)
2736 2013-03-21 21:24:43 hjkl22 has joined
2737 2013-03-21 21:24:55 <TD> it's a java library, so it doesn't do RPC out of the box. you could add it. there's a BlockStore interface that lets you retrieve a block [header] given a hash
2738 2013-03-21 21:25:06 Lolcust has joined
2739 2013-03-21 21:25:17 <TD> and thanks to BlueMatt it has a fully verifying/pruning mode too. i don't recall if it can give you full blocks though. it doesn't try to serve
2740 2013-03-21 21:25:33 <BlueMatt> no, atm it doesnt store full blocks at all
2741 2013-03-21 21:25:43 cyphurnz has joined
2742 2013-03-21 21:25:58 <petertodd> TD: Thanks. It's occured to me that a standard, lightweight, block header daemon would be useful for a lot of things that need to prove transactions exist and so on.
2743 2013-03-21 21:26:07 <BlueMatt> (though adding that to your own db would be trivial with a simple listener)
2744 2013-03-21 21:26:17 <TD> petertodd: yeah, it'd be cool. there needs to be one for checking fidelity bonds at least
2745 2013-03-21 21:26:41 <TD> BlueMatt: with the fixes i checked in today, i think there isn't much left we need for 0.8 ….. i hope we can get people testing the preview wallet apps soon
2746 2013-03-21 21:26:59 <BlueMatt> nice!
2747 2013-03-21 21:27:01 <TD> gmaxwell: and yes multibit is a bit ugly. it's a shame because it turns out whilst nobody was looking, sun/oracle gave java an entirely new GUI toolkit that really rocks
2748 2013-03-21 21:27:42 <TD> gmaxwell: it works with arbitrary scene graphs, every element can be animated, the default widgets are very nicely designed, it has a full blown charting framework built in, you can embed video, webkit widgets, and it has a tool to make bundled native packages/installers (for mac/windows)
2749 2013-03-21 21:27:59 <TD> i keep wanting to make a demo wallet app with it, but then, stuff in the core always seems more important :(
2750 2013-03-21 21:28:39 <petertodd> TD: Yup. Probably good to define a separate RPC port number that's supposed to not have access to wallet stuff; IE the daemon can be user nobody
2751 2013-03-21 21:28:44 <gmaxwell> TD: of course, well— why do you think the -qt wallet/gui stuff stinks so much. :)
2752 2013-03-21 21:29:07 epilido has joined
2753 2013-03-21 21:29:28 <TD> yeah … i think it's partly about setting the bar high. like, if you release a minimal wallet app with a really slick gui, it doesn't have to continue being developed to have an impact. it will just reset expectations all by itself and inspire others to do better.
2754 2013-03-21 21:29:32 * TD wishes tcatm was still around
2755 2013-03-21 21:30:17 <TD> petertodd: well, the way i'd imagine it being used is you implement whatever app needs the header checks on top of the library. but yes, if you don't want to write the passport/bond-checker app in java/scala/groovy/clojure/jython/etc, then a daemon would make sense
2756 2013-03-21 21:30:43 <gmaxwell> I'm wondering if we shouldn't be promoting electrum more than multibit. The expirence and interface are a lot nicer. It sounds like both have security models which are heavily checkpoint based. (electrum is now a SPV node that connects to a single user selected server, and has checkpoints set in the client)
2757 2013-03-21 21:31:19 ThomasV has joined
2758 2013-03-21 21:31:25 <TD> multibit(next) only uses checkpoints to bootstrap. and the newest checkpoint is always >1 month old
2759 2013-03-21 21:31:31 <TD> ah ha, and here is mr electrum himself
2760 2013-03-21 21:31:52 <warren> single user selected server is safer than random multiple?
2761 2013-03-21 21:32:04 viperhr1 has joined
2762 2013-03-21 21:32:20 <gmaxwell> warren: it can be. I'm not saying its safer, however.
2763 2013-03-21 21:32:36 <gmaxwell> warren: (also multiple random is "get it from the DNS seeds")
2764 2013-03-21 21:32:45 <warren> ah
2765 2013-03-21 21:32:46 <alexwaters> sipa: alright to PM?
2766 2013-03-21 21:32:57 <warren> gmaxwell: who sets the checkpoints?
2767 2013-03-21 21:32:59 <gmaxwell> I'm saying that the wallet is clearly better, and perhaps the security differences are small enough that it doesn't matter.
2768 2013-03-21 21:33:02 <petertodd> TD: I'm mostly thinking have a service so that you don't have to duplicate keeping a block database for everything you run locally.
2769 2013-03-21 21:33:09 <TD> sure
2770 2013-03-21 21:33:10 Lolcust has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2771 2013-03-21 21:33:10 <gmaxwell> TD: good to know about your checkpoint policy.
2772 2013-03-21 21:33:21 <sipa> alexwaters: sure
2773 2013-03-21 21:33:38 <TD> gmaxwell: it's only an optimization anyway. even without them, the more efficient code in the newer version can sync from genesis in more like 4-5 minutes tops.
2774 2013-03-21 21:33:53 <TD> gmaxwell: but most people will want it to be more like seconds.
2775 2013-03-21 21:33:55 <petertodd> TD: Oh, so your checkpoints are not the same ones as bitcoin-qt uses?
2776 2013-03-21 21:34:03 Lolcust has joined
2777 2013-03-21 21:34:27 <TD> petertodd: it's a bit confusing. they are not really 'checkpoints' in the same way that they are in bitcoin-qt
2778 2013-03-21 21:34:53 <TD> petertodd: there is a tool that generates a list of headers spaced difficulty-interval blocks apart, with the last month or so skipped
2779 2013-03-21 21:35:13 <TD> petertodd: if there is no chain state on disk, you can create one rooted at the closest prior checkpoint to a given date (this is all automatic)
2780 2013-03-21 21:35:31 <TD> petertodd: the idea is, people like importing private keys. so you download/scan the minimal part of the chain needed, by starting at the wallet birthday
2781 2013-03-21 21:35:36 wawa has joined
2782 2013-03-21 21:35:39 <TD> and if your wallet is fresh, you sync the last months worth of headers
2783 2013-03-21 21:36:09 wawa has quit (Client Quit)
2784 2013-03-21 21:36:20 <gmaxwell> Thats how the electrum headers work too, IIRC. hm.
2785 2013-03-21 21:36:52 <petertodd> TD: Ah, that's reasonable enough; the source code fundementally has to be trusted anyway. So long as you're only distributing these checkpoints with the same security as the code itself.
2786 2013-03-21 21:37:00 <gmaxwell> So the only real gap here is some moderately increased isolation risk— especially since multibit only gets peers from dnsseeds. So in practice a single rogue dnsseed operator could isolate them.
2787 2013-03-21 21:37:01 <TD> right. it gets shipped as part of the app.
2788 2013-03-21 21:37:12 <gmaxwell> petertodd: importantly, it's audiable.
2789 2013-03-21 21:37:14 <TD> gmaxwell: it's high up on my list of things to fix. unfortunately not right at the top.
2790 2013-03-21 21:38:06 <TD> gmaxwell: better fee handling is next. along with some refactorings of the re-org code and some bugfixes. after that i want to start recording addresses from addr broadcasts and using dns only for bootstrapping
2791 2013-03-21 21:38:23 <TD> it's a bit fiddly to ensure it doesn't hurt startup time, but not fundamentally hard.
2792 2013-03-21 21:38:45 <TD> better build security too….. so many things :/
2793 2013-03-21 21:39:10 <petertodd> TD: Oh, re fee handling, I was thinking it might be useful if nLockTime was set by clients, so you could get a rough estimate of how long it takes from broadcast to block inclusion.
2794 2013-03-21 21:39:11 <gmaxwell> well, it's not important to have the safest peers instantly... it's just important that you quickly get safer ones.. an expensive attack that only shows the wrong txn for 30 seconds is not very concerning to me.
2795 2013-03-21 21:39:32 hjkl22 has quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org)
2796 2013-03-21 21:39:34 <TD> that's an interesting idea. bloom filter FP rate could be set a bit higher to give you a random sampling
2797 2013-03-21 21:39:43 nsillik has joined
2798 2013-03-21 21:39:49 safra has joined
2799 2013-03-21 21:40:07 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I don't think this works in a model where you may not trust the miners to not try to manipulate higher fees out of people.
2800 2013-03-21 21:40:22 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I'll just mine a lot of normal fee self txn with nlocktime sent to long ago.
2801 2013-03-21 21:40:31 <petertodd> TD: Yup. There's already a good reason to use it to discourage delibrate orphan mining, although sadly there is an off-by-one error in the GenerateBlock code.
2802 2013-03-21 21:40:57 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Sure, but part of the estimate is to add up the total coin priority of the transactions you are using to make that estimate.
2803 2013-03-21 21:41:08 <warren> (where is the incentive to deliberate orphan mine?)
2804 2013-03-21 21:41:20 <petertodd> gmaxwell: After all, it's just another data point.
2805 2013-03-21 21:41:24 <TD> gmaxwell: yes, i meant startup time of the app after switching to addr broadcasts. if you don't start your wallet for a month, then by the time you do likely the network has churned enough that most of your recorded IPs are stale and it'll take a long time to find a connection
2806 2013-03-21 21:41:45 <TD> gmaxwell: so you need to have some kind of threshold at which point, if you found no working IPs yet, you give up and go back to the DNS seeds.
2807 2013-03-21 21:41:54 <petertodd> warren: Accidental really high fee transactions are the obvious example.
2808 2013-03-21 21:42:05 <gmaxwell> warren: to orphan a block and snipe its fees!
2809 2013-03-21 21:42:11 <TD> and to reduce the chance of that happening too often, that means you need to try lots of peers simultaneously, pick the best ones, then disconnect from the rest to avoid using up too many sockets, etc
2810 2013-03-21 21:42:24 <BlueMatt> TD: or connect to dnsseed simultaneously and then disconnect when you find other peers
2811 2013-03-21 21:42:27 wrabbit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2812 2013-03-21 21:42:27 <petertodd> warren: I suspect a very sophisticated and large miner will find more frequent and subtle opportunities if fees are "bursty"
2813 2013-03-21 21:42:41 <TD> BlueMatt: hmm. yes. but that doesn't meet the goal of reducing load on the nodes which are appearing in the dns seeds.
2814 2013-03-21 21:42:50 wrabbit has joined
2815 2013-03-21 21:42:56 <gmaxwell> TD: what I'd suggest is you always do the fastest thing at startup... and then once its up you replace all your connections with ones picked more securely.
2816 2013-03-21 21:42:57 <TD> BlueMatt: if the seeds can be guaranteed to spread load evenly/intelligently then it's not an issue, but iirc jgarzik was saying they don't presently do that
2817 2013-03-21 21:43:13 <TD> otherwise i'd agree
2818 2013-03-21 21:43:23 <BlueMatt> TD: depends on which seeds you use, if you switch to mine I know it does, not sure about others, Id assume sipa's does a decent job
2819 2013-03-21 21:43:32 <BlueMatt> jgarzik's is a static list
2820 2013-03-21 21:43:42 <TD> ok. right now it just picks a random dns seed.
2821 2013-03-21 21:43:51 <TD> (i think … been some months since i last touched that code)
2822 2013-03-21 21:43:56 <sipa> mine gives you a random subset of "deemed good" IPs
2823 2013-03-21 21:44:20 <BlueMatt> so yea, I think its only jgarzik's that gives you something thats not so optimal for spreading
2824 2013-03-21 21:44:20 <gmaxwell> DNS caching by intermediate dns servers distort the load balance somewhat, I'm sure.
2825 2013-03-21 21:45:25 <comboy> whoa, on new bitcoin website it looks like multibit is preferred over original client?
2826 2013-03-21 21:45:49 john5223 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2827 2013-03-21 21:46:00 <jgarzik> comboy: scroll, that was just discussed ;p
2828 2013-03-21 21:46:03 <jgarzik> *scroll up
2829 2013-03-21 21:46:16 <TD> comboy: being discussed right now, actually.
2830 2013-03-21 21:46:23 Anduck has joined
2831 2013-03-21 21:46:23 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
2832 2013-03-21 21:46:23 Anduck has joined
2833 2013-03-21 21:47:03 <warren> If users are as secure as the source of their client, then why not go further with that.
2834 2013-03-21 21:47:07 <comboy> sorry, I was just suprised :)
2835 2013-03-21 21:47:32 <cypherdoc> so you guys all thoroughly tested multibit?
2836 2013-03-21 21:47:34 one_zero has joined
2837 2013-03-21 21:47:52 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I would think an intermediate dns server would only cause problems if it cached for longer than the ttl?
2838 2013-03-21 21:47:57 <gmaxwell> In any case, I'm really disappointed in multibit, I hadn't used it recently until today and I'm surprised that its not further along. I think it's probably a narrower gap to figure out what electrum needs to do so that we can give it first billing, or get SPV-startup working in -QT.
2839 2013-03-21 21:48:09 <warren> Meaning, embed a public key in the private build, and have the expected hash in DNSSEC dnsseed results.  You're screwed if you can't trust the client builder anyway.
2840 2013-03-21 21:48:09 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: lots of dns servers do slightly evil things with ttl.
2841 2013-03-21 21:48:13 alphaguru has quit ()
2842 2013-03-21 21:48:14 <BlueMatt> didnt TD mention at one point google has done some work tracking dns resolver following ttl?s
2843 2013-03-21 21:48:31 <Luke-Jr> Maybe "Bet the Bitcoin network" should get a "(preferred)" or something on the end ;)
2844 2013-03-21 21:48:38 <TD> there's a long tail of clients that don't do it properly. i forget what the numbers were. it was years since i had to think about that.
2845 2013-03-21 21:49:03 kerum has joined
2846 2013-03-21 21:49:06 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2847 2013-03-21 21:49:13 kerum has left ()
2848 2013-03-21 21:49:18 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin-Qt really needs a name, since it isn't the original client/software really :/
2849 2013-03-21 21:49:38 <TD> gavinandresen: did you get any closer to a decision on the new bitcoin-qt name?
2850 2013-03-21 21:49:54 <gmaxwell> Part of the problem is that user friendlyness requires reducing a vector decision down to a scalar.
2851 2013-03-21 21:50:02 <warren> Was bitcoin-qt ever meant to use a separate bitcoind?
2852 2013-03-21 21:50:33 <TD> hmm. the electrum website says the OS X build is signed, but it's not
2853 2013-03-21 21:51:18 <gmaxwell> For example, you can't call Bitcoin-Qt the "most secure" option because it pratically lacks the offline features of armory. Or the lost password recoverablity of coinbase.
2854 2013-03-21 21:51:20 <gavinandresen> TD: no, none of the suggestions really grabbed me. And besides, I hate deciding on the names of things....
2855 2013-03-21 21:51:34 polrpaul has joined
2856 2013-03-21 21:51:41 <TD> gavinandresen: you really can't get over the crappy film, huh :)
2857 2013-03-21 21:51:53 darinmorrison has quit ()
2858 2013-03-21 21:52:14 <TD> gmaxwell: hmm i'm not sure electrum is so user-friendly either … on the receive tab it uses a large tree widget with addresses, and no further explanation
2859 2013-03-21 21:52:28 <comboy> maybe just call it wallet?
2860 2013-03-21 21:52:43 <gavinandresen> TD: Bitcoin Core is probably my favorite of the bunch.  BitCore?  So we're the BitCorps ?
2861 2013-03-21 21:52:52 <jaakkos> what should I do to copy 0.7.x blk* files to 0.8.x installation?
2862 2013-03-21 21:53:13 <TD> it also embeds a python interpreter console with an ASCII bernanke into the gui :)
2863 2013-03-21 21:53:45 <TD> gavinandresen: "bitcoin core" sounds strong and rock-like, which is what you want for something that forms the backbone of the network
2864 2013-03-21 21:53:45 <BlueMatt> wtf multibit requires an installer on linux?
2865 2013-03-21 21:53:58 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin Complete?
2866 2013-03-21 21:53:58 nus- has joined
2867 2013-03-21 21:54:05 <TD> BlueMatt: the link says installer but it's actually just a jar
2868 2013-03-21 21:54:20 <BlueMatt> TD: the jar I just downloaded popped up with an installer dialog
2869 2013-03-21 21:54:21 <flyingkiwiguy> "bitcoin reference"
2870 2013-03-21 21:54:39 <Luke-Jr> flyingkiwiguy: that mostly refers to the code behind both it and bitcoind IMO
2871 2013-03-21 21:54:41 <comboy> I confirm I have installation dialog opened
2872 2013-03-21 21:54:45 <TD> BlueMatt: from what? you can just run "java -jar multibit.jar" from the command line. if there's an installer that popped up, is it java web start?
2873 2013-03-21 21:54:53 <BlueMatt> no
2874 2013-03-21 21:54:56 <petertodd> Bitcoin Core has the serious problem that it implies you need it...
2875 2013-03-21 21:54:58 <BlueMatt> I ran java -jar multibit...
2876 2013-03-21 21:55:01 <TD> unless jim implemented his own installer??
2877 2013-03-21 21:55:01 <BlueMatt> and...installer
2878 2013-03-21 21:55:06 <TD> ok. that's weird.
2879 2013-03-21 21:55:09 <TD> what does the installer say?
2880 2013-03-21 21:55:10 <BlueMatt> yea, its some weird pacackaging thing
2881 2013-03-21 21:55:22 <BlueMatt> IzPack
2882 2013-03-21 21:55:31 <Luke-Jr> I still think putting out a (small) reward on BitcoinTalk will get some nice ideas…
2883 2013-03-21 21:55:49 <TD> huh. i never heard of that.
2884 2013-03-21 21:55:55 <BlueMatt> strange....
2885 2013-03-21 21:56:01 <sipa> petertodd: you do... to be a full node :)
2886 2013-03-21 21:56:13 <BlueMatt> multibit.org "Linux / Unix installer" over https
2887 2013-03-21 21:56:16 <gmaxwell> The installer makes you consent to the BSD license. :P
2888 2013-03-21 21:56:16 <TD> that said, linux packaging sucks rocks. so i'm not so sure it's a bad idea. at least this way the app can manage its own updates.
2889 2013-03-21 21:56:29 <BlueMatt> yea, though the installer is ugly....
2890 2013-03-21 21:56:37 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: lol
2891 2013-03-21 21:56:38 syxbit has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2892 2013-03-21 21:56:44 <TD> for linux there should probably be deb/rpms too
2893 2013-03-21 21:56:45 <BlueMatt> and requires multiple dialogs (incl license)
2894 2013-03-21 21:56:57 <Luke-Jr> TD: apps *shouldn't* manage their own updates
2895 2013-03-21 21:57:13 <petertodd> sipa: sipa: Sure, but not everyone has one of TD's containerized datacenters in their backyard.
2896 2013-03-21 21:57:16 * petertodd ducks
2897 2013-03-21 21:57:18 <gmaxwell> No OS management debates now please.
2898 2013-03-21 21:57:19 <TD> in this case, it's easier …. jim is starting to work on a determistic build + a quorum of signatures for update cheks
2899 2013-03-21 21:57:25 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2900 2013-03-21 21:57:33 nus- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2901 2013-03-21 21:57:46 <TD> you can do it with debian/redhat RSA type signatures i *think*, but as far as i can tell i'm one of the few people in the world with the source code for RSA threshold signing
2902 2013-03-21 21:57:50 <TD> and i didn't get a chance to play with it yet
2903 2013-03-21 21:58:00 epilido has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2904 2013-03-21 21:58:05 nus- has joined
2905 2013-03-21 21:58:05 <TD> so jim is just rolling a custom one that uses ecdsa signatures and a 2-of-3 policy
2906 2013-03-21 21:58:25 <cypherdoc> "Bitcoin Basic".  all the others wallets can be lumped as "custom"?
2907 2013-03-21 21:58:26 <TD> i want to make the RSA threshold scheme work so we can do the same for android updates.
2908 2013-03-21 21:58:41 <gmaxwell> TD: oh .. the resulting signatures are normal RSA signatures? crazy.
2909 2013-03-21 21:58:45 <TD> yep
2910 2013-03-21 21:59:07 <gmaxwell> I wonder if that can be used for the windows and osx signing things too?
2911 2013-03-21 21:59:17 <TD> the shoup paper says you need specially generated keys, but then the constraints it says the keys have to meet are so loose basically any key should meet them
2912 2013-03-21 21:59:20 <TD> yes, that's my hope
2913 2013-03-21 21:59:27 <TD> i want all code signing that isn't custom to use it, if possible.
2914 2013-03-21 21:59:50 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2915 2013-03-21 21:59:52 <gmaxwell> That would be quite awesome. Do the signatures have to be applied in a particular order?
2916 2013-03-21 22:00:15 <BlueMatt> TD: paper link?
2917 2013-03-21 22:00:25 <petertodd> TD: Are the keys too special to be loaded into a standard OpenPGP smartcard like thing?
2918 2013-03-21 22:00:36 <TD> from my reading of the code, no … it's a multi-step protocol. you tell it what to sign and it outputs a partial signature. everyone sends their partial signature to some dealer who then runs a separate app and out pops a regular rsa signature, if you met the threshold
2919 2013-03-21 22:00:48 <TD> whatever checks the signature sees a regular RSA sig, it's transparent
2920 2013-03-21 22:01:02 <TD> http://www.shoup.net/papers/thsig.pdf
2921 2013-03-21 22:01:23 <TD> it says
2922 2013-03-21 22:01:43 <TD> "we do however place some constraints on the key, namely, the public exponent must be a prime exceeding l and the modulus must be a product of two strong primes"
2923 2013-03-21 22:02:00 Internet13 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2924 2013-03-21 22:02:04 <TD> l in this case is the variable in the k-of-l threshold scheme
2925 2013-03-21 22:02:07 <warren> If the protocol is defined by the reference client's behavior (even accidental/undocumented), what happens when the majority is using a non-reference client?
2926 2013-03-21 22:02:19 <TD> so it'd be a prime exceeding, 5 ….. ie basically any prime. and the latter condition is normal for rsa
2927 2013-03-21 22:02:27 <petertodd> warren: Then the majority are now using the reference client...
2928 2013-03-21 22:02:40 <sipa> warren: thenl rules are defined by the network
2929 2013-03-21 22:02:55 <sipa> which happens to be the reference client mostly now
2930 2013-03-21 22:03:19 FredEE has joined
2931 2013-03-21 22:03:43 Goonie has joined
2932 2013-03-21 22:04:12 <Luke-Jr> warren: note that 'majority' is not 'every peer is equal' majority
2933 2013-03-21 22:04:25 j303 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2934 2013-03-21 22:04:30 <Luke-Jr> warren: peers are weighed relative to how important it is for *you* to pay them
2935 2013-03-21 22:04:54 <TD> yeah. we call it economic majority. but it's a fuzzy concept
2936 2013-03-21 22:05:22 <MC1984> could thee be any link between gaining 15-20thash suddenly and price rocketing
2937 2013-03-21 22:05:29 Internet13 has joined
2938 2013-03-21 22:05:47 <sipa> MC1984: correlation certainly :)
2939 2013-03-21 22:05:59 <gmaxwell> warren: hopefully the art of producing identically behaving full nodes will improve to the point where it won't be a concern
2940 2013-03-21 22:06:04 nus- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2941 2013-03-21 22:06:07 techlife has joined
2942 2013-03-21 22:06:08 <MC1984> co it was literally $50 last time i looked and now 70
2943 2013-03-21 22:06:14 nus- has joined
2944 2013-03-21 22:06:17 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2945 2013-03-21 22:06:20 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2946 2013-03-21 22:06:34 <MC1984> and it seems like more avalons are online
2947 2013-03-21 22:06:42 <gmaxwell> warren: things like quorum validation by miners should reduce the risk of the creation of a longer fork which disagrees with an important population.
2948 2013-03-21 22:07:01 <TD> yikes. multibit has gone from 30 downloads per hour to 250 downloads per hour
2949 2013-03-21 22:07:08 <TD> i hope him can scale his operation fast
2950 2013-03-21 22:07:33 <Luke-Jr> did anyone check with them before deploying this site? XD
2951 2013-03-21 22:08:10 <TD> nope :)
2952 2013-03-21 22:08:12 nus-- has joined
2953 2013-03-21 22:08:30 <warren> perhaps the site should randomize the order of clients it recommends?
2954 2013-03-21 22:08:47 nus-- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2955 2013-03-21 22:08:52 ToryJujube has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2956 2013-03-21 22:08:53 nus-- has joined
2957 2013-03-21 22:09:32 <TD> i place my hope in the fact that lots more people seem to know java than c++, judging from the interviews i do
2958 2013-03-21 22:09:48 <TD> so maybe we can find a new pool of client app developers that didn't appear before because they were put off by bitcoin-qts code
2959 2013-03-21 22:09:51 <BlueMatt> they teach too much java at unis :(
2960 2013-03-21 22:10:01 <warren> Do you really want people who need security to rely on java?
2961 2013-03-21 22:10:15 ToryJujube has joined
2962 2013-03-21 22:10:16 <MC1984> http://internetcensus2012.bitbucket.org/paper.html nerdy reading if anyone wants it
2963 2013-03-21 22:10:20 <TD> for installed apps it makes no difference, now browsers are shutting down the plugin
2964 2013-03-21 22:10:28 <warren> ok good
2965 2013-03-21 22:10:31 <gmaxwell> TD: may also depend on what you're advertising for. Also beware "knows java" means "can navigate an eclipse classbuilder". :P
2966 2013-03-21 22:10:36 [\\\] has joined
2967 2013-03-21 22:10:41 <TD> yes. am painfully aware of that.
2968 2013-03-21 22:10:46 <petertodd> https://github.com/Mikkeren/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition
2969 2013-03-21 22:10:54 coolsa has joined
2970 2013-03-21 22:10:59 <sipa> petertodd: yeah, nice one :)
2971 2013-03-21 22:11:05 <TD> haha yes fizzbuzz enterprise edition is so true it hurts :)
2972 2013-03-21 22:11:14 <Luke-Jr> Multibit's UI seems to encourage address reuse :/
2973 2013-03-21 22:11:26 <TD> we had a competition at one point to find the longest class name in the google java codebase. i forgot what it was, but it was pretty stupid. filled half my screen.
2974 2013-03-21 22:11:42 <hmmmstrange> are there any smart card projects in the works? i have a bunch of atmels and infiniums with crypto processors collecting dust
2975 2013-03-21 22:11:43 nus- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2976 2013-03-21 22:11:48 <TD> Luke-Jr: yes. amongst many other issues with it. that's partly my fault though. there's no deterministic wallet support yet.
2977 2013-03-21 22:11:53 <sipa> TD: sething factoryfactorybuilderfactory :)
2978 2013-03-21 22:11:58 <sipa> *something
2979 2013-03-21 22:12:18 <Luke-Jr> it's also syncing slower than Bitcoin-Qt :|
2980 2013-03-21 22:12:34 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea that was my comment before, it does eventually catch up at the very end.
2981 2013-03-21 22:12:34 <sipa> TD: btw, just mailed dan boneh about bip32 today
2982 2013-03-21 22:12:49 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: On my system it syncs in about half the time as bitcoin-qt.
2983 2013-03-21 22:12:50 <petertodd> Granted, Java's not so bad; it was the year after I had a summer job as a Perl programmer that I dropped out of comp-sci and went to art school...
2984 2013-03-21 22:13:14 <TD> Luke-Jr: the current code uses disk io very inefficiently. i haven't compiled a multibit with the latest bitcoinj, but the android app can sync in more like 5 seconds
2985 2013-03-21 22:13:20 <gmaxwell> I prefer everyone else write in java. The language removes a lot of sharp edges that result in bad code. I just don't especially care to touch it myself. :P
2986 2013-03-21 22:13:22 <TD> Luke-Jr: through a combination of optimizations and some checkpoints
2987 2013-03-21 22:13:22 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: yes it is :p
2988 2013-03-21 22:13:41 <TD> but yes. the current release is way too slow for what it does.
2989 2013-03-21 22:14:07 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: and yet most java code out there is horrendous
2990 2013-03-21 22:14:10 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I wouldn't mind Java so much if GCJ was more mature and people used standard build/release systems
2991 2013-03-21 22:14:23 <Luke-Jr> GCJ compiling to native code, I mean
2992 2013-03-21 22:14:38 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: there is an argument that the sharp edges help reject bad/lazy people. I don't know that I buy it.
2993 2013-03-21 22:15:19 <warren> TD: what's the name of the android app?
2994 2013-03-21 22:15:25 * warren should probably try these things
2995 2013-03-21 22:15:39 <sipa> warren: bitcoin wallet for android by andreas schildbach
2996 2013-03-21 22:15:39 <TD> warren: andreas is going to post a beta of the next version on the forums soon
2997 2013-03-21 22:15:42 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I've done lots of hairy 8-bit embedded assembler programming - I still prefer Python.
2998 2013-03-21 22:15:46 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I find overuse of exceptions result in some issues
2999 2013-03-21 22:15:50 <TD> warren: i'd wait and try that. because the version on the play store is also quite slow.
3000 2013-03-21 22:15:54 <warren> ok
3001 2013-03-21 22:16:00 <TD> our top priority is getting the much better performance out there….. esp with the new website
3002 2013-03-21 22:16:04 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: OTOH, java exceptions are a lot safer than C++ ones.
3003 2013-03-21 22:16:06 Gigitrix-Phone has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com ))
3004 2013-03-21 22:16:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: safer, yes, that doesnt mean the app is stable
3005 2013-03-21 22:16:28 <TD> Luke-Jr: GCJ rocks. i did some experiments with compiling bitcoinj to native code and then using it from C++ via CNI
3006 2013-03-21 22:16:43 <TD> Luke-Jr: it worked fine but the resulting binaries were huge. also gnu classpath is kinda icky in some ways.
3007 2013-03-21 22:16:48 <gmaxwell> oh. just hung multibit. :-/
3008 2013-03-21 22:16:50 <TD> unfortunately that branch fell behind
3009 2013-03-21 22:17:27 <TD> gmaxwell: the new code also resolves a pile of deadlocks :( maybe we could recommend bitcoin-qt for a few more weeks
3010 2013-03-21 22:17:57 <sipa> from what i hear, i think so
3011 2013-03-21 22:18:05 <gmaxwell> TD: any idea if there is a build of this with current bitcoinj that I could start testing?
3012 2013-03-21 22:18:18 <sipa> haven't triedmultibit myself for a long time though
3013 2013-03-21 22:18:23 <TD> for the android app, yes. for multibit, i don't think there is yet.
3014 2013-03-21 22:18:52 <Luke-Jr> MultiBit should let you specify tx fee in <local currency>…
3015 2013-03-21 22:19:20 serp has quit (Quit: leaving)
3016 2013-03-21 22:19:45 <gmaxwell> it uses a fixed tx fee, and a rather large one— but I'd assumed this was a bitcoinj quark, and really I can't complain too much about paying too much in txn fee... since doing so resolves other issues.
3017 2013-03-21 22:20:02 <gmaxwell> (fixed meaning some user settable value not in terms of btc/kb)
3018 2013-03-21 22:20:31 <TD> as i said …. my current priorities are, (a) work with andreas/jim to get the latest code out as it's much faster and more stable, (b) properly implement the fee rules then (c ) use addr broadcasts
3019 2013-03-21 22:21:01 <TD> a couple of guys implemented deterministic wallets too
3020 2013-03-21 22:21:19 <gmaxwell> yea, I didn't mention the fees before since I knew bitcoinj was limited there.
3021 2013-03-21 22:21:26 <TD> i know sipa is still waiting for feedback on the spec, but i'm hoping to get them to submit a real pullreq for that soon
3022 2013-03-21 22:21:34 <Luke-Jr> TD: what "fee rules" do you plan to implement? there really aren't any consistent ones at this point
3023 2013-03-21 22:21:43 <TD> whatever the latest bitcoin-qt uses
3024 2013-03-21 22:22:44 <TD> and yes, though i'm not really a fan of java either, it's significantly harder to screw up with it. the static analysis tools are good, and when something goes wrong you can usually see what happened just by looking at the (never corrupted) stack trace.
3025 2013-03-21 22:22:59 <TD> still plenty of bugs to fix mind you, but they're of the type that nobody has good automated solutions for.
3026 2013-03-21 22:23:35 clr_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3027 2013-03-21 22:24:03 <TD> anyway i'd be OK with temporarily stashing the "get a wallet" page and pointing people to bitcoin-qt, the devil we know, at least until the next stable releases of multibit+android wallet
3028 2013-03-21 22:24:21 <gmaxwell> yup.
3029 2013-03-21 22:24:22 ToryJujube has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3030 2013-03-21 22:24:27 <TD> also the next multibit has update notifications in it
3031 2013-03-21 22:24:45 <warren> do the other clients have alerts?
3032 2013-03-21 22:24:51 <TD> i feel very queasy about the idea of people using a wallet that has no way to tell its users about new updates. jim finally fixed this thank goodness, but again, "next release"
3033 2013-03-21 22:24:56 ToryJujube has joined
3034 2013-03-21 22:25:03 PRab has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3035 2013-03-21 22:25:17 <TD> warren: electrum seems to dump a server message to a python console that runs in a tab. so … maybe? the android app is distributed via play store and gets update alerts via that.
3036 2013-03-21 22:25:21 <TD> armory - no clue
3037 2013-03-21 22:25:24 <gmaxwell> TD: submit a pull request to change it?
3038 2013-03-21 22:25:47 <TD> saivann: still here? :)
3039 2013-03-21 22:25:48 cypherdoc has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3040 2013-03-21 22:25:52 PRab has joined
3041 2013-03-21 22:26:04 * TD is about to head to bed
3042 2013-03-21 22:26:06 <gmaxwell> (I'm inviting you to do it because I don't want to feed any accusation of bitcoin-qt developer bigotry)
3043 2013-03-21 22:26:27 <TD> no, no, it's fine. jim/andreas know my attitudes to this, they'll understand.
3044 2013-03-21 22:27:02 <gmaxwell> I'm not concerned about technical people, in fact. All of you are adults(tm). :)
3045 2013-03-21 22:27:04 Billdr has joined
3046 2013-03-21 22:27:15 <gmaxwell> saivann: awake?
3047 2013-03-21 22:27:44 <sipa> 57 out of >13000 transactions with noncanonical inputs
3048 2013-03-21 22:29:22 chmod755 has joined
3049 2013-03-21 22:29:25 <saivann> gmaxwell : yes?
3050 2013-03-21 22:29:25 <Billdr> Does the QT client provide an interface that my desktop app can interrogate?
3051 2013-03-21 22:29:59 <chmod755> Billdr, command line?
3052 2013-03-21 22:30:04 <Billdr> That'd be fine
3053 2013-03-21 22:30:10 <TD> saivann: we're talking about temporarily changing the "choose your wallet" page to point everyone back to bitcoin-qt. the current web page is fine design wise, but multibit/android wallet have some bugs and performance issues in their current versions that should be resolved quite shorlty
3054 2013-03-21 22:30:12 <sipa> Billdr: yes, if it runs with -server
3055 2013-03-21 22:30:19 <TD> saivann: (hopefully in a few weeks at most)
3056 2013-03-21 22:30:39 <TD> saivann: so we were thinking of stashing the current page, then rolling back to the current version after the new code is out and it's faster/more stable
3057 2013-03-21 22:30:47 <Billdr> Is it documented on the wiki somewhere?
3058 2013-03-21 22:31:03 <sipa> Billdr: sure, search for json-rpc
3059 2013-03-21 22:31:15 <Goonie> can we keep the recommendation for at least one day please?
3060 2013-03-21 22:31:21 <Billdr> awesome, got it. Thanks!
3061 2013-03-21 22:31:33 <Goonie> because I'd like to check how much it impacts downloads
3062 2013-03-21 22:31:41 <Goonie> and I only get those on a per day basis
3063 2013-03-21 22:31:58 btcur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3064 2013-03-21 22:31:59 <saivann> TD : So, just doing something like removing "Get started fast and easy", put Be the Bitcoin network on top with some sort of download button, and keep the wallet list?
3065 2013-03-21 22:32:07 <TD> saivann: yeah something like that
3066 2013-03-21 22:32:19 <saivann> TD : Is it an emergency, or can-I do that later this night?
3067 2013-03-21 22:32:22 <Goonie> btw. I'm Andreas (-:
3068 2013-03-21 22:32:25 <TD> it's not an emergency
3069 2013-03-21 22:32:37 safra has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3070 2013-03-21 22:32:41 <saivann> Good, I will make a pull request later
3071 2013-03-21 22:32:47 <TD> thanks!
3072 2013-03-21 22:33:57 <TD> jim says that he is busy this weekend but can get cracking on rebasing multibit on top of bcj0.8 from monday onwards
3073 2013-03-21 22:34:26 <TD> (or what will become 0.8)
3074 2013-03-21 22:35:24 Ant0 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3075 2013-03-21 22:35:33 * TD has been working his ass off in the past 4 weeks to get spv clients really solid and fast: https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/list
3076 2013-03-21 22:36:21 joey_meyer has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3077 2013-03-21 22:36:39 mow_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3078 2013-03-21 22:36:52 mow has joined
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3081 2013-03-21 22:36:57 caedes has joined
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3085 2013-03-21 22:38:56 sebuba has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3086 2013-03-21 22:39:25 <Scrat> freewil: heh I was wondering why my deployment package went from 2 to 45MB
3087 2013-03-21 22:39:31 <Scrat> damn testnet in a box
3088 2013-03-21 22:39:39 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
3089 2013-03-21 22:39:58 <freewil> Scrat, whopps maybe i should add that to .npmignore ;)
3090 2013-03-21 22:41:06 moleccc has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3091 2013-03-21 22:41:11 <BlueMatt> TD: yea,the turnaround on 0.8 has been astounding
3092 2013-03-21 22:41:52 <TD> it's the first time i feel it's really competitive with central server based solutions
3093 2013-03-21 22:42:33 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
3094 2013-03-21 22:43:32 <BlueMatt> yea, Ive been messing with the android preview...its really fast
3095 2013-03-21 22:44:10 clr_ has joined
3096 2013-03-21 22:44:19 <sipa> link?
3097 2013-03-21 22:44:39 <TD> https://code.google.com/p/bitcoin-wallet/downloads/detail?name=bitcoin-wallet-2.46-bitcoinj0.8.apk&can=2&q=
3098 2013-03-21 22:44:58 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
3099 2013-03-21 22:45:02 <TD> if you upgrade from a previous release you won't get the same perf improvements as the chain storage file format changed, and Goonie hasn't written any code to migrate you yet
3100 2013-03-21 22:45:12 <TD> if you are a fresh user or do a chain reset, then you'll get the benefits
3101 2013-03-21 22:45:27 <sipa> i'll do a reset anyway, i want to see how fast it is in syncing from scratch
3102 2013-03-21 22:45:35 * TD orders his dad a minecraft toy
3103 2013-03-21 22:46:25 <SomeoneWeird> lol
3104 2013-03-21 22:47:44 clr_ has quit (Client Quit)
3105 2013-03-21 22:47:54 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
3106 2013-03-21 22:48:27 <TD> Goonie: with the preview releases, if they crash do you get the bug reports?
3107 2013-03-21 22:48:37 agromanus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3108 2013-03-21 22:48:44 <Goonie> yes
3109 2013-03-21 22:48:51 <Goonie> if the user sends them that is
3110 2013-03-21 22:49:11 agromanus has joined
3111 2013-03-21 22:51:02 unclemantis has quit (Read error: No route to host)
3112 2013-03-21 22:51:39 <TD> $75. how crazy.
3113 2013-03-21 22:51:41 <Goonie> TD: actually I don't see why we should remove the reommendation. The old version also works extremely good.
3114 2013-03-21 22:52:11 RoboTeddy has joined
3115 2013-03-21 22:52:13 <Goonie> TD: any there is no alternative currently. Bitcoin-qt is not installable on a phone.
3116 2013-03-21 22:52:17 nus-- is now known as nus
3117 2013-03-21 22:52:19 <TD> Goonie: it's kind of slow to do the initial sync. do you have any stats on the ANR rate? the deadlocks are a concern also.
3118 2013-03-21 22:52:31 <TD> that's true. i am surprised we took away the recommendation of blockchain for the iPhone
3119 2013-03-21 22:52:35 <TD> given there's no alternative there either ...
3120 2013-03-21 22:52:54 <Goonie> TD: We didn't. It's just hidden by an additional click.
3121 2013-03-21 22:52:55 <sipa> it's still there?
3122 2013-03-21 22:53:03 <TD> oh
3123 2013-03-21 22:53:18 <TD> it was originally in the same area as multibit/bitcoin wallet
3124 2013-03-21 22:54:16 <Goonie> saivann, TD: can we agree to just remove the MultiBit recommendation, if that's necessary?
3125 2013-03-21 22:54:22 bwen has joined
3126 2013-03-21 22:54:26 LightCode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3127 2013-03-21 22:54:54 moleccc has joined
3128 2013-03-21 22:55:44 <TD> whatever we do it shouldn't be the case for long
3129 2013-03-21 22:55:51 <TD> so i am not too worried either way
3130 2013-03-21 22:55:56 <TD> bitcoin is a marathon not a sprint, as they say ....
3131 2013-03-21 22:56:51 <Goonie> TD: I expect all major publications to prepare Bitcoin articles over the next days/weeks. I don't want them to recommend Bitbanks just because they are lacking recommendations by the community.
3132 2013-03-21 22:57:28 <bwen> bitbanks
3133 2013-03-21 22:57:32 <bwen> they can try
3134 2013-03-21 22:57:33 <bwen> :P
3135 2013-03-21 22:58:14 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
3136 2013-03-21 22:58:28 <sipa> synced from scratch (=5 months ago, ?) in 9 minutes over edge :)
3137 2013-03-21 22:58:37 <sipa> Goonie, TD: nice work :)
3138 2013-03-21 22:58:52 <TD> sipa: BlueMatt deserves much of the credit, of course
3139 2013-03-21 22:59:00 <TD> why are you on edge so often btw? which operator are you with?
3140 2013-03-21 22:59:13 <Goonie> TD: We can always remove the recommend if we get into problems. I'm very scalable at the moment. I'm working at home 16 hours a day just for Bitcoin Wallet...
3141 2013-03-21 22:59:15 <sipa> TD: swisscom; intentionally for battery life
3142 2013-03-21 22:59:17 <BlueMatt> meh, bloom filters were minor compared to rewriting half of bitcoinj...
3143 2013-03-21 22:59:22 <TD> sipa: ah
3144 2013-03-21 22:59:34 <TD> Goonie: alright.
3145 2013-03-21 22:59:36 <BlueMatt> sipa: buy multiple batteries, it simplifies life sooo much
3146 2013-03-21 22:59:41 <Goonie> sipa: thanks
3147 2013-03-21 22:59:49 <TD> sipa: battery in my s3 lasts all day even with hspda
3148 2013-03-21 23:00:10 <BlueMatt> TD/sipa: suggestions on what to do about a phone for 3 months in .ch?
3149 2013-03-21 23:00:12 <sipa> BlueMatt: if i forget to recharge, i'll certainly forget to carry/charge/... batteries :)
3150 2013-03-21 23:00:46 <TD> BlueMatt: i'm thinking of buying a nexus 4, so if i do that you could just use my S3 on a short term contract or pay as you go SIM for a while
3151 2013-03-21 23:00:49 <BlueMatt> sadly Im not on a gsm carrier in the us so I cant use my gs2 :(
3152 2013-03-21 23:00:59 <BlueMatt> TD: oh, that'd be awesome
3153 2013-03-21 23:01:05 bitcoiner has joined
3154 2013-03-21 23:01:07 alexwaters has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3155 2013-03-21 23:01:12 <TD> it'll give me the kick i need to get down to digitec and pick one up
3156 2013-03-21 23:01:29 <BlueMatt> heh, well Im happy to help ;)
3157 2013-03-21 23:02:10 nsillik has joined
3158 2013-03-21 23:02:14 <muhoo> bloom filters only apply to blocks, not txes, right?
3159 2013-03-21 23:02:19 <bwen> Armory lets me create watch-only wallets/address, essentially with the privatekey missing... is there something similar with bitcoind?
3160 2013-03-21 23:02:19 <BlueMatt> both
3161 2013-03-21 23:02:32 <sipa> bwen: not yet
3162 2013-03-21 23:02:34 <TD> Goonie: btw how do you support yourself working on wallet full time? consulting and such?
3163 2013-03-21 23:02:39 <BlueMatt> bwen: encrypted wallet where you throw away the key
3164 2013-03-21 23:02:52 <sipa> BlueMatt: that implies you at least have the key initially
3165 2013-03-21 23:02:58 <BlueMatt> well, ok
3166 2013-03-21 23:03:05 <sipa> but yes, that is one way
3167 2013-03-21 23:03:06 <TD> bwen: not with bitcoind. you can do it with bitcoinj based tools, at least.
3168 2013-03-21 23:03:07 <BlueMatt> manually create the wallet
3169 2013-03-21 23:03:08 <Goonie> TD: savings
3170 2013-03-21 23:03:08 <bwen> so there is no way to have bitcoind just read a wallet with no private key?
3171 2013-03-21 23:03:30 <bwen> TD: i'll look into it thx
3172 2013-03-21 23:03:30 <Goonie> TD: and having cut my running expenses to a minimum
3173 2013-03-21 23:03:53 <TD> bwen: look at the "wallet-tool" program in the tools directory.
3174 2013-03-21 23:04:07 skinnkavaj has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3175 2013-03-21 23:04:25 <TD> Goonie: you should consider trying fundraising from the community for adding new features at some point, perhas
3176 2013-03-21 23:04:33 skinnkavaj has joined
3177 2013-03-21 23:04:36 <TD> though android-specific stuff might be a bit too narrow
3178 2013-03-21 23:04:43 <TD> *perhaps
3179 2013-03-21 23:06:05 <Goonie> TD: I don't think there are so many (optional) features left.
3180 2013-03-21 23:06:49 <Goonie> TD: we talked a bit about it in the "next goals" thread from a few weeks ago. HD wallets, optimizations, encryption and that's basically it
3181 2013-03-21 23:06:49 <TD> depends on your vision for the app, i guess.  i'd contribute to an assurance contract for adding localbitcoins integration, for instance. because right now you install the app and then are like ….. how do i get coins?
3182 2013-03-21 23:06:56 <BlueMatt> TD: any chance you could pick this up https://code.google.com/r/bluemattme-bitcoinj/source/detail?r=0f35b4e7fa3edff9230c4ce567f38b6ce6796135&name=master
3183 2013-03-21 23:06:58 <TD> well, those are all clear short term goals
3184 2013-03-21 23:07:47 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
3185 2013-03-21 23:08:09 <TD> BlueMatt: will do tomorrow
3186 2013-03-21 23:08:17 <Goonie> TD: ok sure I forgot new transaction types and payment requests
3187 2013-03-21 23:08:25 <BlueMatt> ok, also threw a onPeerConnect to Verack commit in there
3188 2013-03-21 23:08:26 <BlueMatt> no rush
3189 2013-03-21 23:08:29 <TD> Goonie: there are other cool things that could be done too. yes, payment protocol support.
3190 2013-03-21 23:08:40 <TD> Goonie: though most of that is on the bitcoinj side.
3191 2013-03-21 23:09:08 <Goonie> TD: but in general I want to keep is mass compatible, so it should not get too specialised
3192 2013-03-21 23:09:09 <sipa> 7 minutes to sync on HSDPA... clearly not bandwidth-limited
3193 2013-03-21 23:09:13 <TD> Goonie: bluetooth support?
3194 2013-03-21 23:09:31 <TD> Goonie: but be imaginative. for instance, once we have the payment protocol working, a square-like transparent experience would rock
3195 2013-03-21 23:09:33 <Goonie> TD: that's optimization. but yes I really want to do that
3196 2013-03-21 23:09:36 <TD> Goonie: at least for demos at conferences :)
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3198 2013-03-21 23:09:43 RBecker is now known as rbecker
3199 2013-03-21 23:09:49 <TD> sipa: the bottleneck is how fast bitcoind can load and filter blocks, when i measured it
3200 2013-03-21 23:10:09 <sipa> seems reasonable, ye
3201 2013-03-21 23:10:10 <Goonie> TD: and for whoring in parks (-:
3202 2013-03-21 23:10:16 <TD> Goonie: ie, the app downloads a list of trusted merchants, and then they are able to just take money from your wallet whenever they want. you trust them to only do so, if you actually bought something.
3203 2013-03-21 23:10:26 <sipa> hmm, i made a transaction while replaying the chain
3204 2013-03-21 23:10:27 <TD> hmm, possibly that too :)
3205 2013-03-21 23:10:34 <sipa> now it says "not been transmitted"
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3207 2013-03-21 23:10:52 <TD> sipa: that should be forbidden really. it's easy to create double spends that was.
3208 2013-03-21 23:10:56 <TD> way
3209 2013-03-21 23:11:05 <sipa> agree - i know it wasn't, though
3210 2013-03-21 23:11:22 <TD> which you may have done … "not transmitted" i think can also mean "did not propagate across the network", ie, was rejected due to being a double spend
3211 2013-03-21 23:11:44 <muhoo> [5~[5~/sb end
3212 2013-03-21 23:11:45 <TD> otherwise if you're sure it's not a double spend, Goonie … ?
3213 2013-03-21 23:11:48 <sipa> all transactions were visible all ready
3214 2013-03-21 23:11:51 <sipa> *already
3215 2013-03-21 23:11:53 <Goonie> sipa: it should say something about "has been double spent" if the download is finished
3216 2013-03-21 23:12:14 <sipa> no, it's finished now, and still just sayd not transmitted
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3218 2013-03-21 23:12:22 <TD> sipa: if you disconnect and then re-open the app, it will try re-announcing the transactions
3219 2013-03-21 23:12:28 <Goonie> sipa: hmmm, that's a regression
3220 2013-03-21 23:13:11 <TD> i wonder what could cause that
3221 2013-03-21 23:13:13 <TD> logs would be handy
3222 2013-03-21 23:13:24 <sipa> oh, now it says "confirmed"
3223 2013-03-21 23:13:30 <sipa> in tx details status
3224 2013-03-21 23:13:44 <sipa> i'd prefer it if it said how many confirms...
3225 2013-03-21 23:13:49 <gmaxwell> ::sigh::
3226 2013-03-21 23:13:50 <Goonie> sipa: ah so you already had all tx in your wallet?
3227 2013-03-21 23:14:01 <TD> the pie chart fills up to 6 confirmations
3228 2013-03-21 23:14:12 <sipa> TD: oh, yes, indeed
3229 2013-03-21 23:14:22 <sipa> TD: strange that the tx details don't show that
3230 2013-03-21 23:14:32 <sipa> ^ Goonie: feature request :)
3231 2013-03-21 23:14:36 <sipa> Goonie: yes
3232 2013-03-21 23:14:37 <Goonie> sipa: tx details are far from finished
3233 2013-03-21 23:14:53 <Goonie> sipa: did the main tx list update its status?
3234 2013-03-21 23:14:54 <saivann> Goonie / TD : Ok then, just temporarily replace multibit by bitcoin-qt, is that good?
3235 2013-03-21 23:15:01 <TD> sipa: so apparently it was broadcast, but for some reason didn't realize that.
3236 2013-03-21 23:15:10 <Goonie> saivann: fine with me
3237 2013-03-21 23:15:11 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3238 2013-03-21 23:15:31 <sipa> Goonie: i quit and restarted the app, and shortly after that it went straight from not transmitted to confirmed
3239 2013-03-21 23:15:38 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3240 2013-03-21 23:15:42 <sipa> i think i had the tx details window open when it confirmed
3241 2013-03-21 23:15:48 <TD> with one pie chart slice, right
3242 2013-03-21 23:15:49 <Goonie> TD: I will add manual bug reports very soon, that will include logs, exceptions and everything
3243 2013-03-21 23:15:55 <TD> Goonie: awesome
3244 2013-03-21 23:16:06 <sipa> Goonie: the transaction was a tip to you, btw :)
3245 2013-03-21 23:16:07 <Goonie> possibly even a dump of your wallet (excluding private keys)
3246 2013-03-21 23:16:42 <TD> :)
3247 2013-03-21 23:17:00 <TD> Goonie: yeah better make that optional, i guess, as that can be a lot of sensitive financial data. but definitely good to have it as an option
3248 2013-03-21 23:17:11 agricocb has joined
3249 2013-03-21 23:17:34 <Goonie> TD: it will be a bunch of checkboxes.
3250 2013-03-21 23:17:39 <TD> ok
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3252 2013-03-21 23:18:11 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
3253 2013-03-21 23:18:17 <TD> right, i'm going to sleep. definitely you should brainstorm things you're interested in building. it takes work and patience to make crowdfunding a success, but i think bitcoin is a prime field for it
3254 2013-03-21 23:18:21 * TD -> gone
3255 2013-03-21 23:18:22 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
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3257 2013-03-21 23:18:34 <Goonie> sipa: thanks -- updating my bitcoin-qt to have a look... (-:
3258 2013-03-21 23:18:55 <sipa> Goonie: ironical :)
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3260 2013-03-21 23:19:28 <chmod755> Goonie = Andreas Schildbach? for real?
3261 2013-03-21 23:19:36 <sipa> the one and only
3262 2013-03-21 23:19:47 <sipa> well, no idea - perhaps there are several people called that way
3263 2013-03-21 23:19:56 <chmod755> probably
3264 2013-03-21 23:20:13 <sipa> pretty sure my name is globally unique, though :)
3265 2013-03-21 23:20:34 <Goonie> chmod755: yes
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3267 2013-03-21 23:21:10 <Goonie> sipa: wow - *big* thanks (-:
3268 2013-03-21 23:21:18 <sipa> yw :)
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3284 2013-03-21 23:33:01 <freewil> Scrat, + bitcoin@1.6.2
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3293 2013-03-21 23:42:11 * Scrat hugs freewil
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3302 2013-03-21 23:57:17 <BTC_Bear> "If you are new to Bitcoin, those wallets are a good place to begin."  s/those/these/ for whomever maintains bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet
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