1 2013-03-22 00:02:26 BlackPrapor has quit (2!~kvirc@h31-8-99-173.dyn.bashtel.ru|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2 2013-03-22 00:02:59 denisx has joined
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4 2013-03-22 00:05:04 <denisx> sipa: bitcoind still crashes alot for, here the latest bt: http://pastie.org/7010443
5 2013-03-22 00:05:09 <denisx> for me
6 2013-03-22 00:05:47 honkydong has left ()
7 2013-03-22 00:07:28 <jgarzik> WSJ on bitcoin. I haven't even read it yet. Paywall users might want to search for the headline on Google News. "Web Money Gets Laundering Rule" http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324373204578374611351125202.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTWhatsNewsCollection
8 2013-03-22 00:07:36 <CodeShark> you sure your boost library is up to date, denis?
9 2013-03-22 00:07:59 <sipa> BTC_Bear: talk to saivann
10 2013-03-22 00:08:21 <saivann> BTC_Bear : txs, noted
11 2013-03-22 00:08:22 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: good quote.
12 2013-03-22 00:08:25 <BTC_Bear> k
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14 2013-03-22 00:08:36 <sipa> denisx: i know next to nothing about the rpc server code
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22 2013-03-22 00:13:11 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: It's tough to avoid 'gotcha' soundbites. Whenever criminals+bitcoin is mentioned, I try to draw a parallel with criminals+USD, hoping to set reasonable expectations.
23 2013-03-22 00:13:27 <CodeShark> sipa: that's not true :p
24 2013-03-22 00:13:48 <CodeShark> sipa's "knowing next to nothing" for most people's standards is actually knowing a lot
25 2013-03-22 00:13:51 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: arguably "work with authorities" will irritate some, but I think its failing in the right direction.
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28 2013-03-22 00:16:07 <HM2> Should take bets on when a decentralised cryptocurrency will gain legal tender status
29 2013-03-22 00:16:18 <BlueMatt> never
30 2013-03-22 00:16:24 <BlueMatt> for developed economies
31 2013-03-22 00:16:37 <BlueMatt> maybe something vatican-city-sized would, but.....
32 2013-03-22 00:16:56 <HM2> You underestimate gradual change
33 2013-03-22 00:17:10 <BlueMatt> ok, not in the immediately foreseeable future
34 2013-03-22 00:17:24 Hashdog has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
35 2013-03-22 00:17:35 <HM2> hence the bet on 'when'
36 2013-03-22 00:17:39 <gmaxwell> in the US at least "legal tender" status isn't that interesting or important.
37 2013-03-22 00:17:57 <denisx> sipa: who does?
38 2013-03-22 00:18:10 <HM2> well in the UK legal tender matters a lot
39 2013-03-22 00:18:18 <HM2> postal stamps are still legal tender for small amounts
40 2013-03-22 00:18:23 <HM2> postage*
41 2013-03-22 00:18:33 <sipa> denisx: i think gavin knows more about it, or the guy who wrote it (unfortunately, i think he only ever wrote one patch...)
42 2013-03-22 00:18:49 <HM2> I take great pride in the fact that if I have a 70p tax bill i can pay the government in stamps
43 2013-03-22 00:19:21 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I'm happy to irritate some :)
44 2013-03-22 00:19:24 <HM2> although i'm not sure that's true since they took the prices off of them
45 2013-03-22 00:19:46 kadoban has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
46 2013-03-22 00:19:55 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: FinCEN seems to think it is
47 2013-03-22 00:19:59 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: Judging by the forum comments, a crowd already thinks I'm a Tool Of The Authorities
48 2013-03-22 00:20:27 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: lol, they also think I'm an Enemy Of Bitcoin :p
49 2013-03-22 00:20:34 <Luke-Jr> (because I'm not a libertarian)
50 2013-03-22 00:20:34 <gavinandresen> denisx: I've got a patch pending that stops some of the RPC threading madness, it might help: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2357
51 2013-03-22 00:22:30 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Quit: bitcoinbulletin)
52 2013-03-22 00:22:41 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: from that article: ""I think it's inevitable that just like you have U.S. dollars used by thieves and criminals, it's sadly inevitable you will have criminals use a virtual currency. We want to work with authorities," said Jeff Garzik, a Bitcoin developer."
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56 2013-03-22 00:24:01 <Luke-Jr> the anarchist nut crowd wants to monopolize Bitcoin and use it to achieve their ends
57 2013-03-22 00:24:27 <HM2> Well he was hardly going to say he didn't want to work with the authorities and quite fancied harbouring known criminals
58 2013-03-22 00:24:47 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
59 2013-03-22 00:24:48 denisx_ is now known as denisx
60 2013-03-22 00:24:50 <BlueMatt> in all, the article isnt bad
61 2013-03-22 00:24:50 <Duly> aye
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63 2013-03-22 00:25:04 * rdponticelli calls a riot against jgarzik's appeal to authorities ;)
64 2013-03-22 00:25:43 <HM2> new bitcoin.org site rocks btw
65 2013-03-22 00:25:44 <Luke-Jr> rdponticelli: I think you are confused over what appeal to authority means
66 2013-03-22 00:25:56 <HM2> i've been out of action for a week or more sick as a dog. who did it?
67 2013-03-22 00:26:05 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: really good technology is generic, it can be used for good or bad and by people with wildly different politics. One of the things that makes bitcoin successful is that people with different views can support it.
68 2013-03-22 00:26:06 <rdponticelli> Luke-Jr: Don't go mad, it's a joke
69 2013-03-22 00:26:14 <sipa> HM2: saivann
70 2013-03-22 00:26:19 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: exactly.
71 2013-03-22 00:26:19 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: if the ultra libertarians didn't like it â it would be harder to get it adopted.
72 2013-03-22 00:26:42 <gmaxwell> likewise for the not-ultra-libertarians.
73 2013-03-22 00:26:46 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: perhaps, the problem is their desire to monopolize it and alienate anyone else
74 2013-03-22 00:26:47 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
75 2013-03-22 00:26:53 <Duly> powerful tools are adopted by power seekers first, everyone else later
76 2013-03-22 00:26:54 <randy-waterhouse> Luke-Jr: mining consensus rules
77 2013-03-22 00:27:05 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: everyone thinks that their own purposes are the best purposes.
78 2013-03-22 00:27:05 <warren> gmaxwell: between those two labels are our moderates?
79 2013-03-22 00:27:17 <PRab> Would it make sense to limit dialog boxes such as the "Show QR code" dialog (Reference client) to max out at 21million BTC? Right now that one can go up to 99,999,999 (1billion).
80 2013-03-22 00:27:29 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
81 2013-03-22 00:27:38 <gmaxwell> warren: nah, politics has too many dimensions to talk about 'between'. Is west between north and south?
82 2013-03-22 00:27:40 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I think tonal is much more revolutionary than bitcoin, but I don't go around telling people they can't use it with decimal BTC :P
83 2013-03-22 00:27:55 <randy-waterhouse> yet another libertarian bash fest on bitcoin-dev ....
84 2013-03-22 00:28:00 randy-waterhouse has left ("Freedom.")
85 2013-03-22 00:28:01 <HM2> well you could argue solving double-spend and other hard decentralised trust problems are purely technical exercises
86 2013-03-22 00:28:06 <saivann> HM2 : Ha, your comment is like sweet juice to my ears. Thanks! :)
87 2013-03-22 00:28:07 * gmaxwell giggles
88 2013-03-22 00:28:11 <HM2> but nobody outside nerdsville will believe you
89 2013-03-22 00:29:18 <bwen> anyone familiar with Armory client for bitcoin? I tried to sign an offline transaction of .5 to another of my wallet address. When I came to sign it with the offline wallet I saw in the details that there is another 9.5 BTC moving to another address. which just happen to have been created by my watch-only wallet. I do have 1 transaction of 10BTC that I recieved in the pass. Is this normal?
90 2013-03-22 00:29:31 <HM2> saivann: it's really nice, i like the "need to know" page especially
91 2013-03-22 00:29:54 <saivann> HM2 : Yes, I also think that this page is the most important one in that update.
92 2013-03-22 00:29:55 <gmaxwell> bwen: yes, thats the change moving it sounds like.
93 2013-03-22 00:30:25 <bwen> gmaxwell: so it just cant deduct the .5 it needs to send the balance to another address?
94 2013-03-22 00:30:58 kadoban has joined
95 2013-03-22 00:30:59 <sipa> bwen: yes; or the same address, but that's typically discouraged
96 2013-03-22 00:31:34 Scrat has joined
97 2013-03-22 00:31:36 <gmaxwell> bwen: there is no "deduct" in bitcoin. Every transaction totally consumes its inputs and must do something with the change.
98 2013-03-22 00:32:11 <bwen> so I will end up with alot of address in my wallet, everything I move partial amount of transactions
99 2013-03-22 00:32:13 bitcoinbulletin has joined
100 2013-03-22 00:32:19 <bwen> everytime*
101 2013-03-22 00:32:34 <bwen> aight aight. makes sense, just making sure
102 2013-03-22 00:33:11 <bwen> so this is not Armory client. It pretty much how the system work?
103 2013-03-22 00:33:21 <gmaxwell> Correct.
104 2013-03-22 00:33:29 <bwen> aight, thx guys :]
105 2013-03-22 00:33:35 hanti is now known as HANTI
106 2013-03-22 00:33:57 <jgarzik> randy-waterhouse: I don't bash libertarians, just crypto-anarchists :)
107 2013-03-22 00:34:18 <gmaxwell> He vanished.
108 2013-03-22 00:35:13 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I wonder why Bitcoin doesn't use scriptPubKey hashes in place of txid/index
109 2013-03-22 00:35:38 <Luke-Jr> to discourage reuse?
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111 2013-03-22 00:36:31 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: because it's important to actually identify which are getting spent so oversending conflicts have a consistent resolution. You could make a system that did otherwise, but it would be less elegant.
112 2013-03-22 00:36:52 <CodeShark> scriptPubKey hashes are not guaranteed to be unique
113 2013-03-22 00:37:59 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: they wouldn't have to be.
114 2013-03-22 00:38:26 <CodeShark> it seems to greatly complicate the verification logic
115 2013-03-22 00:38:45 <gmaxwell> E.g. you could have 'balances' and constrain it so that no scriptpubkey gets overspent. ... but when an overspend happens the result is becomes ???? for that whole scriptpubkey and not just the specific overspent coin.
116 2013-03-22 00:39:34 <CodeShark> seems harder to prune that kind of structure
117 2013-03-22 00:40:16 <gmaxwell> yea, thats another bit of uglyness. also reorgs are a lot more complicated.
118 2013-03-22 00:40:41 <sipa> or calculating confirmations
119 2013-03-22 00:40:49 <gmaxwell> I dunno, there are obvious downsides. The only obvious upsides that I'm aware of is that you could preauthor txn to spend coins you don't have yet.
120 2013-03-22 00:41:30 <gmaxwell> Also, indexing on a user controlled value means that database unbalancing attacks are a concern.
121 2013-03-22 00:41:32 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: seems easier to consistently resolve conflicts with a hash of scriptPubKey IMO
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124 2013-03-22 00:42:32 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: users can control txids just as easily
125 2013-03-22 00:43:00 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: huh? like... I pay sipa. Then I pay codeshark. But then codeshark says he cant wait, and he needs me to pay more fee now... so I double spend... oops.. then sipa doesn't get paid and codeshark gets paid twice.
126 2013-03-22 00:43:03 <sipa> gmaxwell: that sounds like a very bad property
127 2013-03-22 00:43:12 <sipa> gmaxwell: replay attacks
128 2013-03-22 00:43:32 <gmaxwell> or that
129 2013-03-22 00:44:04 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: they can'tâ or at least their ability to select txids that spend different inputs is limited to their ability to attack sha256.. meaning they can't make more than 8 bytes match or so in practice.
130 2013-03-22 00:44:24 <CodeShark> being able to claim balances in a ledger seems more intuitive to most people - and is more akin to how we bank. but there's a good reason why the claims in bitcoin are against specific transaction outputs and not addresses or pubkey hashes
131 2013-03-22 00:45:07 <CodeShark> I think satoshi had to leave the intuitive picture of balances precisely because it would be more difficult to have consistent validation
132 2013-03-22 00:46:39 <gmaxwell> I'm not sure of that. From the digital cash perspective you always think about chains of a digital-dollar moving from person to person.
133 2013-03-22 00:46:52 <gmaxwell> When there is no central system there is no ledger.
134 2013-03-22 00:46:57 <sipa> 119/20421
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136 2013-03-22 00:47:08 <CodeShark> claiming transaction outputs in their entirety allows you to think of the structure as an acyclic directed graph
137 2013-03-22 00:47:12 <sipa> seems to remain around 0.5% non-canonicals
138 2013-03-22 00:47:18 <CodeShark> where validation amounts to inserting edges
139 2013-03-22 00:47:54 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: in a world where people would not double spend bitcoin would work fine without the blockchain just as it is now.
140 2013-03-22 00:48:24 <CodeShark> lol - and if my aunt had testicles she'd be my uncle - what's your point?
141 2013-03-22 00:48:46 <HM2> double spending is small thinking
142 2013-03-22 00:48:56 <HM2> i'd like a world where i could spend the same coin a billion times
143 2013-03-22 00:49:01 <HM2> nobody else, just me
144 2013-03-22 00:49:22 <CodeShark> try fractional reserve banking :)
145 2013-03-22 00:49:30 <gmaxwell> I'm just pointing out that "ledger" is not actually the natural way to think about bitcoin.
146 2013-03-22 00:49:34 <gmaxwell> Chain of transactions is.
147 2013-03-22 00:50:06 <CodeShark> correct, gmaxwell - but people still have the habit of keeping balances at financial institutions
148 2013-03-22 00:50:09 joe_k1 has joined
149 2013-03-22 00:50:34 <CodeShark> one of the hurdles many face in understanding bitcoin is overcoming this bias
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152 2013-03-22 00:50:55 <CodeShark> this habit of thought, rather
153 2013-03-22 00:51:39 joey_meyer has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
154 2013-03-22 00:52:50 <CodeShark> bitcoin is neither account-based nor identity-based. it is entirely transaction-based
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157 2013-03-22 00:53:47 <CodeShark> each transaction stands or falls on its own
158 2013-03-22 00:53:53 <HM2> the transactions are the real wallets
159 2013-03-22 00:54:04 <CodeShark> and the transactions that came before it
160 2013-03-22 00:54:29 <HM2> that depends on whether you're doing full verification
161 2013-03-22 00:54:42 <CodeShark> a "wallet" amounts to secret knowledge which allows you to claim outputs
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180 2013-03-22 01:34:28 <muhoo> hmm, bitcoinj does not use change addresses
181 2013-03-22 01:34:37 <muhoo> or rather, multibit does not
182 2013-03-22 01:35:09 <sipa> what?
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184 2013-03-22 01:35:23 <muhoo> multibit. i just sent money, got the change back to the send address
185 2013-03-22 01:36:00 <muhoo> looks like the source code of bitcoinj does have something like change addresses, will experiment to make sure.
186 2013-03-22 01:36:34 Boydy has joined
187 2013-03-22 01:37:51 <muhoo> yes Wallet.getChangeAddress(), randomly picks an address from the keychain to use for change. hmm. maybe i just lucked out and multibit picked the same address by chance.
188 2013-03-22 01:38:25 <muhoo> ugh, actually, it just picks the *first* address in the keychain, not random.
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190 2013-03-22 01:39:21 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
191 2013-03-22 01:39:25 <muhoo> sipa: http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/browse/core/src/main/java/com/google/bitcoin/core/Wallet.java#2006
192 2013-03-22 01:39:44 <denisx> what was the adress of the list of the most stable bitcoin nodes again?
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196 2013-03-22 01:41:14 <muhoo> denisx: do you mean the seed nodes?
197 2013-03-22 01:41:21 <muhoo> for dns?
198 2013-03-22 01:41:28 <denisx> no
199 2013-03-22 01:42:19 <sipa> denisx: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/seeds.txt ?
200 2013-03-22 01:42:28 <denisx> sipa: yes
201 2013-03-22 01:42:35 polrpaul has joined
202 2013-03-22 01:45:12 <denisx> sipa: is there also nicer version with filter features or something?
203 2013-03-22 01:47:21 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
204 2013-03-22 01:47:52 <sipa> denisx: it's just a text file :)
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206 2013-03-22 01:48:42 TheLordOfTime has joined
207 2013-03-22 01:49:15 <TheLordOfTime> so, just a question about the entire backend. Bitcoin confirmations... what actually has to confirm the transactions, other nodes? some supernodes? something else?
208 2013-03-22 01:49:34 <TheLordOfTime> and does it attempt to confirm every time a block is received/processed, or... what?
209 2013-03-22 01:50:34 <sipa> TheLordOfTime: 'confirmations' is really just how deep the transaction is buried in the block chain
210 2013-03-22 01:50:49 <sipa> the only time it requires 'action' is when a miner puts it in a block
211 2013-03-22 01:51:03 <sipa> every block on top of that block causes an implicit extra confirmation
212 2013-03-22 01:51:34 Ogig has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
213 2013-03-22 01:52:04 <muhoo> would it be horribly NIH of me to scrap bitcoinj and just write my own protocol implementation in clojure, using clojure tools like immutability and clojure concurrency primitives, clojure wrappers around netty, etc?
214 2013-03-22 01:52:41 <sipa> muhoo: i think you underestimate the work
215 2013-03-22 01:52:41 <CodeShark> TheLordOfTime: "confirmation" doesn't mean that it is certain - it just means it got harder for someone to remove
216 2013-03-22 01:52:56 <TheLordOfTime> ah i see. that explains it
217 2013-03-22 01:53:12 <TheLordOfTime> ah, and the transaction in question has 1/6 confirmations thus far :P
218 2013-03-22 01:53:24 <TheLordOfTime> so, the deper into the block chain this goes, the more "confirmed" it is?
219 2013-03-22 01:53:28 <sipa> yes
220 2013-03-22 01:53:28 <muhoo> sipa: i don't. it seems quite a lot. but i'd probably lift the serialization/deserialization stuff, because i'd rather not have to write that.
221 2013-03-22 01:53:48 <sipa> muhoo: right, depends on the scope of course
222 2013-03-22 01:54:01 <phantomcircuit> you should do it
223 2013-03-22 01:54:08 <phantomcircuit> because then someone would have done it
224 2013-03-22 01:54:09 <sipa> and you perhaps have a better idea than most who consider starting something like that :)
225 2013-03-22 01:54:42 <muhoo> well i've been working with the bitcoinj codebase for about 5 months now. and dealing with java is making me crazy.
226 2013-03-22 01:54:58 <sipa> haha
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229 2013-03-22 01:55:30 <muhoo> mike's code is nice, but as nice as it is, it's still java.
230 2013-03-22 01:56:25 <CodeShark> java the language isn't too entirely horrible...could be worse. At least it has a pretty decent set of libraries with a more or less consistent API
231 2013-03-22 01:56:44 <muhoo> i'm not an OOP guy. i prefer FP.
232 2013-03-22 01:56:59 <CodeShark> it does suck that Java forces you to make everything a class :p
233 2013-03-22 01:57:00 <muhoo> so it's mostly personal taste
234 2013-03-22 01:57:03 <CodeShark> that's idiotic :P
235 2013-03-22 01:57:18 <CodeShark> it's OOP taken to logical absurdity
236 2013-03-22 01:57:24 <sipa> not at all
237 2013-03-22 01:57:27 <CodeShark> into applications where it no longer makes sense.
238 2013-03-22 01:57:33 <sipa> it even has non-object types!
239 2013-03-22 01:57:35 <muhoo> well i didn't mean to start a language flamewar
240 2013-03-22 01:57:39 <CodeShark> lol sipa
241 2013-03-22 01:57:45 <sipa> ever used smalltalk?
242 2013-03-22 01:57:49 <sipa> _everything_ is an object
243 2013-03-22 01:58:03 <CodeShark> yeah, smalltalk is even more extreme in that sense
244 2013-03-22 01:58:09 <iwilcox> muhoo: Inevitable :)
245 2013-03-22 01:58:49 <muhoo> iwilcox: there used to be a saying, never discuss politics or religion in polite company. i gues on the internet, never discuss language, editors, or os'es, since those are the politics and religion of the internet.
246 2013-03-22 01:59:00 <CodeShark> java the stack machine sucks, though :)
247 2013-03-22 01:59:19 <iwilcox> JIT rocks, though
248 2013-03-22 01:59:36 <muhoo> i think the JVM is an impressive peice of kit. i just prefer using clojure to work with it :_)
249 2013-03-22 01:59:44 john_____ has joined
250 2013-03-22 01:59:45 <CodeShark> JIT has made it just barely tolerable
251 2013-03-22 02:00:23 <CodeShark> there are so many times I would love to tell the runtime environment I'm done with something and that it should clean up and give me back some more resources
252 2013-03-22 02:00:44 <CodeShark> I'm not a big fan of automatic garbage collection
253 2013-03-22 02:01:15 <CodeShark> I can tolerate it in dynamically typed languages
254 2013-03-22 02:01:18 starsoccer_ is now known as starsoccer
255 2013-03-22 02:01:20 <CodeShark> because it affords other powerful features
256 2013-03-22 02:02:12 <iwilcox> I thought you got enough control these days with the WeakReference or whatever stuff.
257 2013-03-22 02:02:52 <CodeShark> I like the RAII paradigm
258 2013-03-22 02:03:00 <CodeShark> { give me something } I'm done with it
259 2013-03-22 02:03:42 <CodeShark> { new Something(); } hey, I don't need it anymore...
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264 2013-03-22 02:09:59 <BlueMatt> anyone have slides of an introduction to bitcoin in 15 minutes I could steal?
265 2013-03-22 02:10:43 <donpdonp> BlueMatt: depends on the quality you're looking for :) mine is at http://www.slideshare.net/donpdonp/bitcoin-101
266 2013-03-22 02:10:49 zooko has joined
267 2013-03-22 02:13:31 <BlueMatt> thanks, Ill probably cobble together something by stealing slides from anywhere I can find and giving some bastardized hodgepodge
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278 2013-03-22 02:22:29 <CodeShark> sipa: r.e. smalltalk, it represents a pretty significant advance in the way people thought about writing software - it really was innovating with the whole object oriented approach. Java, on the other hand, just poorly copies certain features of C++ where they don't really belong
279 2013-03-22 02:22:31 _pr has joined
280 2013-03-22 02:22:47 <CodeShark> like public static void main...
281 2013-03-22 02:22:50 <CodeShark> wtf?!!?!
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284 2013-03-22 02:24:40 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
285 2013-03-22 02:25:25 <CodeShark> I don't often have occasion to reuse application entry points and subclass them :p
286 2013-03-22 02:25:58 <kadoban> that's a rather bad example of what's wrong with java, isn't it? it's super verbose for no reason, but it's not like it affects anything
287 2013-03-22 02:26:28 <CodeShark> I don't mind verbose if it's descriptive and conceptually deep
288 2013-03-22 02:26:45 <CodeShark> the issue here is more conceptual
289 2013-03-22 02:26:51 duckybsd has joined
290 2013-03-22 02:28:37 <gmaxwell> I wonder if there have been any websites that displayed confirmation counts in megajoules
291 2013-03-22 02:29:44 bwen has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
292 2013-03-22 02:29:47 <gmaxwell> would make confirmations more comparible for things like btc vs ltc.
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304 2013-03-22 02:45:14 <realazthat> hey
305 2013-03-22 02:45:46 <realazthat> so the ecdsa used, is it NIST*p? or secp256k1? or what?
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308 2013-03-22 02:49:30 <lianj> realazthat: secp256k1, but readup on the wiki
309 2013-03-22 02:50:02 sanchaz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
310 2013-03-22 02:50:27 <realazthat> lianj: I am reading https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Elliptic_Curve_Digital_Signature_Algorithm
311 2013-03-22 02:50:40 <realazthat> but unless I am missing something, it doesn't give that info
312 2013-03-22 02:51:15 <lianj> hm someone should add it
313 2013-03-22 02:51:43 joey_meyer has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
314 2013-03-22 02:51:47 <realazthat> ok found some more info on another page
315 2013-03-22 02:51:52 <realazthat> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Secp256k1
316 2013-03-22 02:52:26 <realazthat> the issue I am having with Secp256k1, is that the lib I am using (python-ecdsa) is for some reason expecting the sig to be 64 bytes
317 2013-03-22 02:52:36 <realazthat> and its 70 (usually 71,72,73)
318 2013-03-22 02:52:49 <realazthat> so I have some wrong idea here
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321 2013-03-22 02:55:01 <realazthat> ok overcame that; the sig is in der format apparently
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358 2013-03-22 03:40:55 <Billdr> I'm reading over the API calls. "sendfrom" says "<amount> is a real and is rounded to 8 decimal places." Is "real" a numeric type?
359 2013-03-22 03:43:00 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
360 2013-03-22 03:46:42 <Luke-Jr> Billdr: JSON only has one Number type. "real" is a mathematical English term.
361 2013-03-22 03:47:30 joey_meyer has joined
362 2013-03-22 03:50:20 <keystrike> getting closer and closer to the v2 block transition
363 2013-03-22 03:50:38 leviathanbaphz has joined
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368 2013-03-22 03:53:28 <denisx> keystrike: btcguild alone has more than 5% v1 blocks
369 2013-03-22 03:54:12 <denisx> or did btcguild switch to v2 recently so these are generated no more
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372 2013-03-22 03:56:19 <doublec> 86.7% last I looked
373 2013-03-22 03:56:38 fiesh has joined
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375 2013-03-22 04:01:40 <Graet> denisx, they switched
376 2013-03-22 04:01:50 <Graet> patched thier getwork servers
377 2013-03-22 04:02:09 <denisx> ok, then it will soon happen
378 2013-03-22 04:02:20 <Graet> yes :)
379 2013-03-22 04:03:03 <gmaxwell> Graet: so how much hashrate does ozcoin have on the avalon 'default' account? :P
380 2013-03-22 04:03:27 Hawkwood has joined
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382 2013-03-22 04:04:11 <Graet> varies
383 2013-03-22 04:05:04 orblivion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
384 2013-03-22 04:06:31 ashod has joined
385 2013-03-22 04:07:05 orblivion has joined
386 2013-03-22 04:07:33 <ashod> what is used more often ?, blockexplorer.com or blockchain.info
387 2013-03-22 04:07:49 <SomeoneWeird> probably the latter
388 2013-03-22 04:08:20 croys has joined
389 2013-03-22 04:08:55 <gmaxwell> ashod: What are you working on in any case? You're not a grad student working for an academic on yet another throughly confused and inaccurate paper on bitcoin constructed by screen scraping blockexplorer are you?
390 2013-03-22 04:09:27 <SomeoneWeird> lmfao
391 2013-03-22 04:10:08 zooko has joined
392 2013-03-22 04:10:09 <Graet> gmaxwell, avalons were mining for 2 weeks before i was told we wre default pool, and then i found 2 of the 3 were set to ports that werent open... so it wasnt a huge advantage....
393 2013-03-22 04:10:16 <ashod> tell me who you are fist gmaxwell, then i'll give you my info
394 2013-03-22 04:10:42 <Graet> lol
395 2013-03-22 04:10:55 <jgarzik> ashod: http://bitcoin.org/en/development
396 2013-03-22 04:10:57 <SomeoneWeird> ashod, he's gregory maxwell
397 2013-03-22 04:11:16 Bwild has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
398 2013-03-22 04:11:23 <Duly> i could hear the hand slapping the face
399 2013-03-22 04:11:26 <Duly> in my mind
400 2013-03-22 04:11:30 <SomeoneWeird> oshieet new bitcoin site
401 2013-03-22 04:11:53 <ashod> and I ashod apakian
402 2013-03-22 04:12:06 <ashod> i'm asking who he is
403 2013-03-22 04:13:09 <ashod> So gregory maxwell baby ? - tell me a bit about yourself
404 2013-03-22 04:13:13 <gmaxwell> ashod: Sure, andâ and you got something like three people telling you who I wasâ it's no secret.
405 2013-03-22 04:13:29 Bwild has joined
406 2013-03-22 04:13:48 berni23 has joined
407 2013-03-22 04:13:50 <gmaxwell> ashod: Well⦠I like long walks on beaches, fresh fruit, and baiting trolls on IRC.
408 2013-03-22 04:14:08 <ashod> come across any trolls lately greg ?
409 2013-03-22 04:14:52 <gmaxwell> A few!
410 2013-03-22 04:14:53 bernard75 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
411 2013-03-22 04:15:03 <digitalmagus> LOL
412 2013-03-22 04:15:06 <ashod> You don't like trolls do you ?
413 2013-03-22 04:15:24 sanchaz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
414 2013-03-22 04:15:28 sebuba has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
415 2013-03-22 04:15:34 <Graet> no-one really does in the -dev chanel
416 2013-03-22 04:16:08 <ashod> of course, who does
417 2013-03-22 04:16:24 <ashod> i don't like trolls either, -
418 2013-03-22 04:16:47 <gmaxwell> Well, I certantly spend a lot of time interacting with them for someone who theoretically doesn't like them. â In any case, enough about me. You've been asking a lot of random questions about things and it doesn't seem you've been getting very far. You've been getting lots of answers but I don't think we really understand how to help you, because the questions keep repeating. If we had some idea of what you were up to we could help more.
419 2013-03-22 04:17:20 B0g4r7 has joined
420 2013-03-22 04:17:21 <SomeoneWeird> +++++1
421 2013-03-22 04:17:28 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: ever do any simulations or tests with UDP block relaying?
422 2013-03-22 04:17:39 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: It seems worthwhile... if retries are not a problem
423 2013-03-22 04:17:50 <ashod> well ask away ; unlike a troll, I will answer your questions
424 2013-03-22 04:17:54 <jgarzik> ..which seems like something only answerable with tests
425 2013-03-22 04:17:57 <gmaxwell> And if my presumptions insulted you, I apologize. Though I must say, being accused of potentially being a grad student is ... not a terribly grave insult in my culture.
426 2013-03-22 04:18:26 <jgarzik> UDP seems _really_ nice for transaction broadcasting.
427 2013-03-22 04:18:41 random_cat has joined
428 2013-03-22 04:18:50 <ashod> do you think I'm a grad student ?
429 2013-03-22 04:18:55 <jgarzik> And with our P2P network, seems like it would be easy to rig up an automatic UDP hole punch.
430 2013-03-22 04:19:31 <B0g4r7> I ran bitcoin-qt and sent some BTC while it was still synchronizing (it was 12 hours out of date), and now the transaction shows in my client, but not on blockchain.info...
431 2013-03-22 04:19:32 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Lack of (or mismatched) flow control has implications for block relaying. For transactions not so much. No simulations, but here is why I thought it was interesting: no limit on the number of concurrent 'connections'.
432 2013-03-22 04:19:33 <SomeoneWeird> ashod, who cares
433 2013-03-22 04:19:44 <B0g4r7> How can I fix? I already tried restarting bitcoin-qt.
434 2013-03-22 04:19:57 <SomeoneWeird> it's blockchains fault
435 2013-03-22 04:20:00 Saberu has joined
436 2013-03-22 04:20:03 <SomeoneWeird> bc.info*
437 2013-03-22 04:20:09 <B0g4r7> It is huh? They're b0rked?
438 2013-03-22 04:20:28 <SomeoneWeird> no, they just havn't received the transaction yet
439 2013-03-22 04:20:29 <ashod> well let's see if I can be of any help to bitcoin - . I think I have enough experience in software, to be of some use to you guys
440 2013-03-22 04:20:41 <gmaxwell> B0g4r7: any chance you've double spent.
441 2013-03-22 04:20:48 <B0g4r7> Usually it's instant.
442 2013-03-22 04:20:59 <B0g4r7> I don;t know. How would that happen?
443 2013-03-22 04:21:21 <B0g4r7> Nothing was spent or received in the unsyncronized blocks.
444 2013-03-22 04:21:27 <gmaxwell> ashod: That would be fantastic, as always. So what are you trying to dig into? you've been asking a bunch of questions in the area of history analysis and the online block explorers. What questions are you trying to answer or what tools are you trying to build?
445 2013-03-22 04:21:44 <ashod> well I'm building 2 things
446 2013-03-22 04:22:44 <B0g4r7> Usually it shows instantly on bc.info, even if unconfirmed. There's been a block now and still nothing.
447 2013-03-22 04:23:00 <ashod> let me ask you @gmaxwel, what do you think I'm really trying to do here. you seem to have an opinion of this
448 2013-03-22 04:23:05 <B0g4r7> tx id af9314b262f2fd3fc9438bf7f387e106fcc34b68cee3b6c194467e5cc3178a26
449 2013-03-22 04:23:55 xenesis has quit (Quit: xenesis)
450 2013-03-22 04:24:00 * hmmmstrange is building 3 things
451 2013-03-22 04:24:20 <SomeoneWeird> ashod, he just asked you, so how would he know?
452 2013-03-22 04:24:34 <ashod> Without offending anyone, - why does this channel exist ? - Is bitcoin incomplete ? - or do some bugs still exist, that require solving ? or is there an ongoing commitment to improving the performance of bitcoin. - I ask this, because it seems bitcoin is working..
453 2013-03-22 04:24:37 <Saberu> for Scrypt mining (Litecoins) is the memory usage proportional to the speed of the hashing?ãso if you are hashing 1000khash would use 10x more memory than 100khash?
454 2013-03-22 04:24:54 <SomeoneWeird> all of the above
455 2013-03-22 04:25:02 <Graet> bitcoin is beta, maybe you should read up on iy a bit ashod :)
456 2013-03-22 04:25:06 <Duly> yeah this is the Jiffy Lube for the bitcoin car
457 2013-03-22 04:25:29 sebuba has joined
458 2013-03-22 04:25:42 <Saberu> anyone have an idea about my question? thanks
459 2013-03-22 04:25:55 <Graet> Saberu, this is #bitcoin-dev - no-one cares
460 2013-03-22 04:25:57 <ashod> What is required for it to be no longer be in beta ? -
461 2013-03-22 04:26:14 <Saberu> ok
462 2013-03-22 04:26:34 <ashod> Yes, you need to throw a lot of tech jargon, otherwise you're not worthy
463 2013-03-22 04:26:46 <gmaxwell> ashod: It is far from complete, ... and, well, obviously the team here cares little about performance having only improved it by an order of magnitude in the last major release....
464 2013-03-22 04:26:46 <B0g4r7> So no idea how I can cause my transaction to be broadcast again?
465 2013-03-22 04:27:27 <ashod> @gmaxwell So everyone is happy with the performace at the moment ?
466 2013-03-22 04:27:53 <pigeons> much happier than a few months ago
467 2013-03-22 04:28:25 <ashod> yet, @gmaxwell, - it's far from complete ... - Why so
468 2013-03-22 04:28:29 <gmaxwell> ashod: I suspect that the sarcasm in my last statement may have been lost on you. No, we're not happy with it now.
469 2013-03-22 04:28:33 <Duly> it speaks like a journalist or reporter not like a dev
470 2013-03-22 04:28:41 <SomeoneWeird> >.<
471 2013-03-22 04:29:17 sanchaz has joined
472 2013-03-22 04:29:22 <jgarzik> nice
473 2013-03-22 04:29:36 <gmaxwell> ashod: Unfortunately if I start compactly enumerating the missing things you're likely to accuse me of 'throw(ing) a lot of tech jargon'
474 2013-03-22 04:29:42 <jgarzik> http://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet now recommends Bitcoin-Qt or Android's Bitcoin Wallet
475 2013-03-22 04:29:45 * jgarzik cheers
476 2013-03-22 04:30:10 <ashod> np, I didn't pick up on the sarcasm .. - @gmaxwell, is performance the main issue keeping it in beta -- e.g if you could speed things up by 50% , would that be cause to leave beta status
477 2013-03-22 04:30:37 <ashod> it's fine greg, there is no tech jargon you can throw at me, that will phaze me
478 2013-03-22 04:31:15 <ashod> in face greg, you and I have crossed paths before
479 2013-03-22 04:31:21 <gmaxwell> ashod: No, improved performance is importantâ and there are more improvements in the pipeline... but not sufficient.
480 2013-03-22 04:31:39 <Ry4an> ashod: here is a list of specific things people hope to complete on the road to 1.0: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues
481 2013-03-22 04:31:40 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (away!~PiZZaMaN2@unaffiliated/pizzaman2k|Quit: Leaving...)
482 2013-03-22 04:32:04 <gmaxwell> Ry4an: and far from complete!
483 2013-03-22 04:32:15 <gmaxwell> ashod: we have?
484 2013-03-22 04:32:26 <ashod> yes, a couple of times actually
485 2013-03-22 04:32:42 amaloz has joined
486 2013-03-22 04:32:57 <gmaxwell> I have no clue, but thats not unusual.
487 2013-03-22 04:33:42 HiWEB has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
488 2013-03-22 04:33:49 <gmaxwell> In any case, I have a list of middle term features of varrying importance, its due for an update at some point soon, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/features
489 2013-03-22 04:34:33 <ashod> Yes, in fact , we got a long really well back then -
490 2013-03-22 04:34:48 <ashod> So when I heard you we're working on this project, I thought I would look into it
491 2013-03-22 04:34:49 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
492 2013-03-22 04:36:46 <gmaxwell> I'm flattered.
493 2013-03-22 04:37:28 <ashod> well I do respect you as a coder..
494 2013-03-22 04:38:07 <ashod> and as we both know , developing codecs, is probably the most challenging thing one can work on - , god knows, we spent enough time doing that
495 2013-03-22 04:38:22 johnsoft has joined
496 2013-03-22 04:39:03 <ashod> might get in touch with michael militzer again and work on h265.
497 2013-03-22 04:39:27 <keystrike> disk corruption robust wallet storage <- nice
498 2013-03-22 04:39:45 <nanotube> jgarzik: heh yes, though i must say boostrapping qt from scratch is not really in the category of 'fast'. :)
499 2013-03-22 04:40:05 Saberu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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501 2013-03-22 04:41:08 <nanotube> jgarzik: maybe if it started up in spv mode while downloading the blockchain from the tip back, as i think gmax has suggested at some point in the past...
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505 2013-03-22 04:41:58 <gmaxwell> nanotube: you don't actually have to go backwards, though that has some useful anti-DOS properties. You can get the headers first forward then fill the blocks in, fetching in whatever order.
506 2013-03-22 04:42:19 <gmaxwell> (though obviously validating must move forward)
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508 2013-03-22 04:43:36 <nanotube> yea, at any rate that'd be a cool way to shorten the perceived startup time.
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511 2013-03-22 04:44:19 <nanotube> which even with .8 code can take a few hours
512 2013-03-22 04:44:55 Saberu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
513 2013-03-22 04:46:58 <gmaxwell> nanotube: thats largely network behavior limited right now. Doing headers first would allow parallel block fetching which would also largely solve that.
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515 2013-03-22 04:48:00 <nanotube> hmm well, isn't it also cpu-limited though, on the verification side?
516 2013-03-22 04:48:02 <gmaxwell> Right now what happens is you'll get an overloaded or slow peer connected to first and then pull from it serially... very slow. Without the network issues my laptop syncs in about an hourâ and much of that is on ECDSA which sipa's new code makes 4x faster.
517 2013-03-22 04:48:26 <gmaxwell> nanotube: less cpu limited now that we have parallel signature checking, at least.
518 2013-03-22 04:48:27 <nanotube> i know my 0.8.0 rexndexing took about 1.5 hours on a single core.
519 2013-03-22 04:48:42 Saberu has joined
520 2013-03-22 04:49:02 <nanotube> (because my laptop cpu was getting uncomfortably hot running on both :) )
521 2013-03-22 04:49:27 <nanotube> but yes, that doesn't sound half bad, with parallel pulls and 4xfaster ecdsa.
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531 2013-03-22 05:09:20 <sivu> hmm.. bitcoinj gurus around?
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533 2013-03-22 05:11:45 <iwilcox> Howcome addresses these days all seem to match 1[A-Z0-9] but never have the lowercase letters used in that first char?
534 2013-03-22 05:13:00 <gmaxwell> iwilcox: because the version byte is a byte. and 2^8 > 58 Basically the first character also expresses part of the version data.
535 2013-03-22 05:13:18 <gmaxwell> What major rule proofs and I currently drawing a blank on here? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/features#Proofs
536 2013-03-22 05:13:25 <iwilcox> Sorry, in that first char after the 1
537 2013-03-22 05:13:41 <iwilcox> Oh, right.
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559 2013-03-22 05:40:43 <peawormsworth> I would like to make my own snapshot of the block data from an up to date bitcoin-qt install... and then apply this to other new bitcoin-qt installs. But I am getting errors. Is there a way to put the data into a state for easy transfer?
560 2013-03-22 05:41:21 Diablo-D3 has joined
561 2013-03-22 05:41:58 <peawormsworth> fyi: im using 0.8 client. i am copying blkindex.dat, blk0001.dat and the content of the blocks directory. I get: "cant open database file blkindex.dat, error 22"
562 2013-03-22 05:44:35 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin 0.8 should never say anything about "blkindex.dat"
563 2013-03-22 05:45:39 <peawormsworth> o crap... ur right. I seem to have 0.7 and the original source is from 0.8. That could be an issue. thx.
564 2013-03-22 05:46:42 <nanotube> gmaxwell: maybe 'proof or block hash too high' ?
565 2013-03-22 05:47:34 <gmaxwell> I talk good.
566 2013-03-22 05:47:47 joey_meyer has joined
567 2013-03-22 05:47:52 nus-- has joined
568 2013-03-22 05:48:14 <gmaxwell> oh I see what you're saying.
569 2013-03-22 05:49:39 <nanotube> er, s/or/of/ :)
570 2013-03-22 05:50:16 cyphase has joined
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572 2013-03-22 05:51:51 <gmaxwell> nanotube: Soâ Added a bit. I think I was working from the assumption that nodes would check all the things a spv node can check, but at least further out in the future that might be considered expensive.
573 2013-03-22 05:51:59 Hashdog has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
574 2013-03-22 05:52:17 joey_meyer has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
575 2013-03-22 05:53:01 <nanotube> i see it
576 2013-03-22 05:53:18 john_____ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
577 2013-03-22 05:53:23 <nanotube> yea that covers it
578 2013-03-22 05:55:06 Gnaf has joined
579 2013-03-22 05:55:37 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
580 2013-03-22 05:59:23 <nanotube> would spending an input with value X and having an output with value X+e fall under 'invalid script' ?
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586 2013-03-22 06:03:02 <nanotube> or maybe 'nonexisting input' hmmm
587 2013-03-22 06:03:12 <nanotube> gmaxwell: ^
588 2013-03-22 06:03:53 <gmaxwell> that would be a case of invalid script, but good catch... that one requires all the inputs as proof.
589 2013-03-22 06:05:40 <peawormsworth> i am still not able to copy blk*.dat and block/* files from one bitcoin-qt install to another new install. it now requests that i reload the chain.
590 2013-03-22 06:06:50 <peawormsworth> gmaxwell: you once told me: "This won't be an issue starting with the 0.8 release, because we don't store the blockchain in .dat files any more." ... so I dont need to use "detachdb=1" option to transfer the chain data. But I cant seem to find a solution for creating my own snapshots.
591 2013-03-22 06:08:55 <gmaxwell> We don't store the _index_ that way anymore. You still need to copy the indexes if you don't want them rebuilt... though it can now rapidly reindex from just the chain data.... and the new database doesn't need detachdb.
592 2013-03-22 06:13:34 <peawormsworth> I am copying the files: blk0001.dat, blkindex.dat and block/*. and the 2nd install is rejecting and saying "reload the block chain?" which starts a full reload i think, which seems to defeat my goals. Is there a file I am forgetting?
593 2013-03-22 06:17:48 <warren> peawormsworth: what version is the new client?
594 2013-03-22 06:18:47 <peawormsworth> 0.8.0
595 2013-03-22 06:19:21 <warren> peawormsworth: you are aware that 0.8 needs to reload the chain anyway?
596 2013-03-22 06:20:01 <peawormsworth> warren: do u mean there is no way to "jump start" a new install of bt-qt in order to avoid the hours of download?
597 2013-03-22 06:20:27 <warren> peawormsworth: you can load it from the 0.7 blocks, but it needs to reindex them using the new db, which is much faster than 0.7's db
598 2013-03-22 06:20:34 <gmaxwell> warren: he's copying 0.8 to 0.8 AFAIK
599 2013-03-22 06:20:38 <warren> oh
600 2013-03-22 06:20:40 <warren> sorry
601 2013-03-22 06:20:50 <warren> argh
602 2013-03-22 06:20:59 <warren> not getting enough sleep
603 2013-03-22 06:21:08 <peawormsworth> yes. i have an up to date 0.8. and i am trying to "jump start" a 2nd copy of 0.8
604 2013-03-22 06:21:50 Transisto has joined
605 2013-03-22 06:22:03 <gmaxwell> peawormsworth: just copy everything except wallet.dat from a shut down (but not detached, no need) node... should be good to go.
606 2013-03-22 06:22:24 panzer has joined
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608 2013-03-22 06:23:07 <peawormsworth> yes. i will try again. maybe i just made a silly mistake. FYI: the specific error in debug.log is "errors in block header" and "failed to read block"
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610 2013-03-22 06:23:16 <warren> gmaxwell: is there a way to safely clone the blocks + db from a running bitcoind?
611 2013-03-22 06:24:05 croys has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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613 2013-03-22 06:24:26 <gmaxwell> warren: you can just copy the blockfiles, â and reindex on the other side. You can not safely copy in in-flight leveldb.
614 2013-03-22 06:24:45 <gmaxwell> We could quiet the db for copying... but I dunno if anyone would bother.
615 2013-03-22 06:24:54 <gmaxwell> e.g. a pausedb and unpausedb rpc calls.
616 2013-03-22 06:25:03 <Transisto> Can I do something so bitcoind to get more connection ? been stuck at ~36 for more than 24h (I know it's sufficient, I just want to seed as much as I can)
617 2013-03-22 06:25:09 <gmaxwell> and eventually running out of ram if you don't unpause
618 2013-03-22 06:25:29 <peawormsworth> yeah... but what would be the difference then between shutting it down? if no updates to db are allowed? maybe for read only purposes?
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620 2013-03-22 06:26:22 <warren> peawormsworth: I've corrupted the leveldb with an unclean server shutdown a few times
621 2013-03-22 06:26:25 <warren> on Windows and Linux
622 2013-03-22 06:26:56 <warren> For that reason I'd personally keep recent offline cold spares
623 2013-03-22 06:26:58 <peawormsworth> warren: ah yes. and also gmaxwell points to the idea of moving to ram only. So i should be quiet now. sry.
624 2013-03-22 06:27:46 <gmaxwell> The idea would be to make the database readonly so it could be safely copied out. Bitcoind has everything needed for that, would probably only be a few lines of code....
625 2013-03-22 06:28:03 <gmaxwell> but whats the use case for copying it while running?
626 2013-03-22 06:28:15 <warren> ah, you could make cold spare index copies for faster startup in the event of corruption (which happens...)
627 2013-03-22 06:28:38 <gmaxwell> warren: we'd rather fix the corruption. :P
628 2013-03-22 06:28:47 <warren> I pointed out one of the corruption bugs
629 2013-03-22 06:28:47 karmaon has joined
630 2013-03-22 06:28:59 <gmaxwell> I know, one you pointed out is a BTRFS bug though.
631 2013-03-22 06:29:08 <warren> oh really? ok.
632 2013-03-22 06:29:15 <gmaxwell> BTRFS corrupts sparse files.
633 2013-03-22 06:29:23 <warren> I had other weird leveldb failures on windows 7
634 2013-03-22 06:29:37 <gmaxwell> Yea, not the only report either.
635 2013-03-22 06:29:53 <gmaxwell> So I know they happen. I do believe all linux reports I've seen have been on btrfs.
636 2013-03-22 06:30:21 <gmaxwell> as far as fast recovery, if you're doing something where fast recovery is urgent you should really have multiple nodes.
637 2013-03-22 06:30:43 coolsa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
638 2013-03-22 06:30:48 <warren> point being, if your business relies upon bitcoind uptime, you can ensure WAYYY faster restart times even in the ultra rare case of corruption if you regularly make cold spare copies of the index.
639 2013-03-22 06:30:58 <warren> good point
640 2013-03-22 06:31:15 <jgarzik> Man, the blocks are flying off the assembly line today.
641 2013-03-22 06:31:29 <weex> diff going up a bit i'd say
642 2013-03-22 06:31:42 <warren> jgarzik: and p2pool somehow made up for its entire bad luck reputation
643 2013-03-22 06:32:08 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
644 2013-03-22 06:32:43 BTC_Bear has quit (hbrntng!~BTC_Bear@unaffiliated/btc-bear/x-5233302|Quit: Leaving...)
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650 2013-03-22 06:47:59 xenesis has joined
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652 2013-03-22 06:54:44 <berni23> fuck me sideways: http://www.derivativesintelligence.com/Article/3176278/News/Big-Put-Trade-Rocks-Fx-Mart.html
653 2013-03-22 06:55:42 <gmaxwell> berni23: does it mention bitcoin?
654 2013-03-22 06:55:56 <berni23> wrong chanell
655 2013-03-22 06:55:59 <berni23> no
656 2013-03-22 06:56:03 <warren> gmaxwell: would be awesome to have a $900M bitcoin PUT
657 2013-03-22 06:56:13 <berni23> but it influeces btc
658 2013-03-22 06:56:23 skinnkavaj has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
659 2013-03-22 06:56:38 <petertodd> berni23: then say it in #bitcoin, this is the -dev channel
660 2013-03-22 06:56:50 <berni23> i know
661 2013-03-22 06:56:55 <berni23> [07:34:24] <berni23> wrong chanell
662 2013-03-22 06:56:58 <berni23> sooooory
663 2013-03-22 06:57:34 skinnkavaj has joined
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680 2013-03-22 07:25:40 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
681 2013-03-22 07:25:41 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
682 2013-03-22 07:25:41 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
683 2013-03-22 07:25:41 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
684 2013-03-22 07:25:42 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
685 2013-03-22 07:25:42 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
686 2013-03-22 07:25:42 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
687 2013-03-22 07:25:42 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
688 2013-03-22 07:25:43 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
689 2013-03-22 07:25:43 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
690 2013-03-22 07:25:43 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
691 2013-03-22 07:25:44 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last dayhttp://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
692 2013-03-22 07:26:05 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
693 2013-03-22 07:26:06 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
694 2013-03-22 07:26:06 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
695 2013-03-22 07:26:07 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
696 2013-03-22 07:26:07 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
697 2013-03-22 07:26:34 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
698 2013-03-22 07:26:34 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
699 2013-03-22 07:26:35 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
700 2013-03-22 07:26:35 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
701 2013-03-22 07:26:35 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
702 2013-03-22 07:26:36 <bfdshreshre> http://redd.it/1asd4s 50btconly$1099 last day
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712 2013-03-22 07:36:30 <Transisto> asking again
713 2013-03-22 07:36:33 <Transisto> Can I do something so bitcoind to get more connection ? been stuck at ~36 for more than 24h (I know it's sufficient, I just want to seed as much as I can)
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720 2013-03-22 07:46:44 <Transisto> everything is working fine, I just wish to report I get : "errors" : "EXCEPTION: St9bad_alloc \nstd::bad_alloc \nbitcoin in ProcessMessages() \n"
721 2013-03-22 07:47:03 <sivu> out of memory?
722 2013-03-22 07:47:22 <Transisto> could be it has 1gb
723 2013-03-22 07:48:00 <gmaxwell> thats not enough memory for running many connections.
724 2013-03-22 07:48:01 joey_meyer has joined
725 2013-03-22 07:48:11 <gmaxwell> future versions of bitcoind may do better.
726 2013-03-22 07:48:35 <sivu> i wonder how much memory does blockchain use for keeping 1400+ connections
727 2013-03-22 07:48:41 <Transisto> should I bother to lower the connectoin# ?
728 2013-03-22 07:49:41 <gmaxwell> Transisto: you should if you're running out of memory.
729 2013-03-22 07:49:56 Goonie has joined
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731 2013-03-22 07:52:44 <Transisto> I don't see how connection to ram relate much unless it's caching every incoming tx from each node separately
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733 2013-03-22 07:54:08 <gmaxwell> Transisto: the client maintains buffers for each peer so that messages in and out which block at the network can be processed atomically by the node.
734 2013-03-22 07:54:37 <gmaxwell> its not the only way to do thingsâ or even a good wayâ but its the way it does it right now.
735 2013-03-22 07:55:44 <gfawkes> atomic processes are a PITA to craft tho
736 2013-03-22 07:55:51 <Transisto> 940mb is odd comparing to my windows QT client, 383mb (25 connection)
737 2013-03-22 07:56:29 <Transisto> Thanks /to bed/ zzz
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759 2013-03-22 08:40:56 <JyZyXEL> can WinXP be used to gpumine?
760 2013-03-22 08:41:25 berni23 is now known as bernard75
761 2013-03-22 08:44:52 <warren> JyZyXEL: you might get better answers from #bitcoin-mining
762 2013-03-22 08:45:02 [Author] has joined
763 2013-03-22 08:45:03 <JyZyXEL> thank you
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784 2013-03-22 09:09:33 <_pr> bitcoin piece just on radio 4 in UK
785 2013-03-22 09:10:18 <_pr> that'll be BBC Radio 4
786 2013-03-22 09:11:46 OskarVanRest has joined
787 2013-03-22 09:11:49 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
788 2013-03-22 09:11:54 <TD[away]> nice
789 2013-03-22 09:11:56 TD[away] is now known as TD
790 2013-03-22 09:11:58 <TD> what did they say?
791 2013-03-22 09:12:32 <_pr> jokey, novelty style with some investment guy stating he thought it was a fad
792 2013-03-22 09:12:33 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
793 2013-03-22 09:12:55 <TD> that's fine
794 2013-03-22 09:13:57 drizztbsd has joined
795 2013-03-22 09:14:36 <_pr> had a small amount of info in it but not good quality, mentioned 'inflation-proof' and requiring trust in the bitcoin community
796 2013-03-22 09:15:12 <TD> as it happens, i am just about to start a new forum thread about building a press center for the new website
797 2013-03-22 09:15:29 <TD> i think once journalists have a section of the website just for them, with all the resources they need to write a great story, coverage will improve a lot
798 2013-03-22 09:15:38 OskarVanRest has left ()
799 2013-03-22 09:15:46 <_pr> man, wish they'd got gavin on!
800 2013-03-22 09:16:17 <_pr> TD: agreed
801 2013-03-22 09:16:37 <RoboTeddy> TD: excellent idea
802 2013-03-22 09:16:46 <TD> wanna work on it guys? :)
803 2013-03-22 09:16:50 peawormsworth has joined
804 2013-03-22 09:17:19 johnsoft has joined
805 2013-03-22 09:17:22 <_pr> sure
806 2013-03-22 09:17:40 Quazgaa has joined
807 2013-03-22 09:17:48 <TD> i'll paste a link to the thread here in a few minutes, once i create it
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812 2013-03-22 09:19:37 <RoboTeddy> I think the first few sections of http://evoorhees.blogspot.com/ give a better non-technical explanation than I've seen elsewhere
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824 2013-03-22 09:31:36 <TD> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=156364.0
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829 2013-03-22 09:36:56 <peawormsworth> in bt-qt I have a directory: ~/.bitcoin/telnet3 in this there is an additional wallet.dat. What is this second wallet for? And is it something I should secure?
830 2013-03-22 09:37:18 <TD> testnet3 is the test network
831 2013-03-22 09:37:28 <TD> unless you received test coins, it isn't important
832 2013-03-22 09:37:28 <peawormsworth> ah yes. i ran -testnet before. thx.
833 2013-03-22 09:37:47 <TD> it doesn't need to be secure, but if you have test coins send them back to the faucet please. don't just delete the wallet
834 2013-03-22 09:37:58 <peawormsworth> will do.
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839 2013-03-22 09:39:16 <RoboTeddy> someone should make an open source satoshi dice that donates all the house winnings to charity automatically
840 2013-03-22 09:39:55 _pr has joined
841 2013-03-22 09:40:17 <RoboTeddy> I'd do it but I live in the wrong country
842 2013-03-22 09:40:32 <peawormsworth> maybe an evil version that deletes the private keys to hide/destroys the coins.
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859 2013-03-22 09:56:15 pester has joined
860 2013-03-22 09:56:52 <[Tycho]> I wonder why no one just asked me directly if they were waiting for me :) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=154521.0
861 2013-03-22 09:57:42 _pr has joined
862 2013-03-22 09:59:01 <TradeFortress> RoboTeddy, you'd need a good bankroll
863 2013-03-22 09:59:04 <TradeFortress> hmm maybe p2p gambling
864 2013-03-22 09:59:14 <RoboTeddy> TradeFortress: well, you could start with small bet limits
865 2013-03-22 09:59:29 <RoboTeddy> TradeFortress: it's possible to dynamically modify the bet limits in order to keep a constant (low) probability of going bust
866 2013-03-22 10:00:23 <RoboTeddy> TradeFortress: I bet if there were a site where the house winnings went to charity, people would use it instead of SD :D
867 2013-03-22 10:00:39 <RoboTeddy> getting OT here though, so I'm going to stfu
868 2013-03-22 10:00:50 <TradeFortress> eh, i'm a S.DICE shareholder so I certainlly won't do that :P
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871 2013-03-22 10:08:15 _pr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
872 2013-03-22 10:08:19 <ryan-c> I just tripped on this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=9680.0
873 2013-03-22 10:08:33 <ryan-c> thought my code was broken :(
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897 2013-03-22 10:50:20 <[Tycho]> What is "UTXO" ?
898 2013-03-22 10:51:47 rdymac has joined
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900 2013-03-22 10:52:30 HANTI is now known as hanti
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904 2013-03-22 10:55:31 zz_qwertyoruiop is now known as qwertyoruiop
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906 2013-03-22 10:56:26 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
907 2013-03-22 10:56:56 <jgarzik> [Tycho]: unspent transaction output
908 2013-03-22 10:57:11 <jgarzik> [Tycho]: or in other words, a bitcoin
909 2013-03-22 10:57:53 Saberu has joined
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911 2013-03-22 10:59:43 kerum has joined
912 2013-03-22 11:00:48 btcven is now known as rdymac
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915 2013-03-22 11:01:36 <[Tycho]> Thanks.
916 2013-03-22 11:03:50 <ThomasV> how does the reference client compute its fee?
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918 2013-03-22 11:04:29 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
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920 2013-03-22 11:04:46 <ThomasV> oh, sorry, found it
921 2013-03-22 11:05:14 rbecker is now known as RBecker
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929 2013-03-22 11:11:18 <Allaun> i have a minor bug, should i post it here?
930 2013-03-22 11:11:50 buddyrandom has joined
931 2013-03-22 11:11:56 <sipa> github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues
932 2013-03-22 11:11:58 CaptainBlaze has joined
933 2013-03-22 11:13:10 <Allaun> ok, thank you
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943 2013-03-22 11:17:34 <space_cadet> hi
944 2013-03-22 11:17:55 <space_cadet> is there a channel for mtgox api programming
945 2013-03-22 11:18:00 <space_cadet> websockets etc
946 2013-03-22 11:18:01 nelisky has quit (Quit: nelisky)
947 2013-03-22 11:19:01 Saberu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
948 2013-03-22 11:19:26 <TradeFortress> space_cadet, #mtgox I guess
949 2013-03-22 11:19:34 RBecker is now known as rbecker
950 2013-03-22 11:20:11 <space_cadet> yeah i should've figured ;)
951 2013-03-22 11:20:13 <space_cadet> thx
952 2013-03-22 11:20:23 Saberu has joined
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956 2013-03-22 11:21:35 OPrime has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
957 2013-03-22 11:22:29 <iwilcox> space_cadet: Websocket use is sort of unsupported and frankly pretty unreliable but there's a thread on bitcointalk and the basics are on the wiki.
958 2013-03-22 11:22:57 <iwilcox> There are also a few open source thingys on github.
959 2013-03-22 11:23:16 bernard75 has quit ()
960 2013-03-22 11:23:32 dsg has joined
961 2013-03-22 11:23:52 OPrime has joined
962 2013-03-22 11:24:00 <pegu> join #mtgox
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965 2013-03-22 11:25:09 <dsg> Does anyone know of microcontrollers with embedded SHA (preferably SHA256) engines that can handle at least 10MB/s throughput? (unrelated to bitcoin, but I figure someone here must know)
966 2013-03-22 11:25:29 <space_cadet> iwilcox would you recommend to use the http api instead?
967 2013-03-22 11:25:30 i2pRelay has joined
968 2013-03-22 11:25:50 <iwilcox> PM, we're annoying pegu
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972 2013-03-22 11:27:38 <pegu> no annoying, I just tried to join the channel and forgot the / before join
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984 2013-03-22 11:46:00 kermit_ has joined
985 2013-03-22 11:46:08 <kermit_> !ticker
986 2013-03-22 11:46:08 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 72.53000, Best ask: 72.53001, Bid-ask spread: 0.00001, Last trade: 72.53001, 24 hour volume: 95688.36612059, 24 hour low: 66.65000, 24 hour high: 74.90000, 24 hour vwap: 70.99671
987 2013-03-22 11:47:18 nelisky has joined
988 2013-03-22 11:48:28 joey_meyer has joined
989 2013-03-22 11:48:59 <kermit_> crap
990 2013-03-22 11:49:00 <kermit_> 74.9
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1027 2013-03-22 12:15:01 <sipa> TD, Goonie: bitcoin wallet doesn't seem to use change addresses?
1028 2013-03-22 12:16:07 <chmod755> Goonie, I'd use your android wallet but my phone is not really new and I'd have to store the data on my sdcard (is that possible now?)
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1033 2013-03-22 12:21:32 <qdii> there is sth I donât understand: how are bitcoin address "owned"
1034 2013-03-22 12:21:36 qwebirc97552 has joined
1035 2013-03-22 12:21:45 <Ant0> qdii you own a private key
1036 2013-03-22 12:21:46 i2pRelay has joined
1037 2013-03-22 12:21:51 <chmod755> ^
1038 2013-03-22 12:21:56 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
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1041 2013-03-22 12:23:02 <qdii> ok. let's say I generate an address on bitaddress.org, it gives me a private key as well. How can I be sure that somewhere else, someone does not have the same address with another private key
1042 2013-03-22 12:23:43 <Ant0> they both should have a match
1043 2013-03-22 12:23:50 <Ant0> you can own the same address with another key
1044 2013-03-22 12:24:28 <sipa> qdii: your funds are safe as long as noone has any private key that has the same address as you
1045 2013-03-22 12:25:34 <sipa> qdii: given that there are 1461501637330902918203684832716283019655932542976 valid addresses, the chance for someone hitting the same one as you is astronomically small
1046 2013-03-22 12:26:17 <Scrat> qdii: it is safe because even if you generate 1 quadrillion keys per second from now till our sun becomes a nebula your chance of generating the same key is still very very low
1047 2013-03-22 12:26:18 <qdii> how do the transaction make use of the public/private keys exactly?
1048 2013-03-22 12:26:31 DamascusVG has quit (Quit: I Quit - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p97zsQ51Rw)
1049 2013-03-22 12:26:38 <chmod755> ;;calc 1461501637330902918203684832716283019655932542976 / 7100000000
1050 2013-03-22 12:26:39 <gribble> 205845301032521520265974803518323687424
1051 2013-03-22 12:26:40 <Scrat> same address*
1052 2013-03-22 12:26:54 <sipa> qdii: a transaction input contains the full public key + a signature made with the corresponding private key
1053 2013-03-22 12:27:04 ikbenwouter has joined
1054 2013-03-22 12:27:04 <sipa> qdii: a transaction output contains an address
1055 2013-03-22 12:27:07 <chmod755> 205845301032521520265974803518323687424 keys per person lol
1056 2013-03-22 12:27:12 <qdii> Scrat: my concern is more "someone deliberately tries to use the address I chose"
1057 2013-03-22 12:27:37 <sipa> qdii: impossible unless they can guess a private key that has the same address as you
1058 2013-03-22 12:28:01 <chmod755> qdii, if you're really concerned about that move every bitcoin to a different address
1059 2013-03-22 12:28:20 <qdii> I donât understand "guess a private key that has the same address as you", but that's because I donât know the address generation mechanism
1060 2013-03-22 12:28:21 Transisto has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1061 2013-03-22 12:28:42 <qdii> chmod755: it's more about getting more confident about bit coins :)
1062 2013-03-22 12:29:01 <qdii> so it generates a private/public pair, and uses some digits of it to represent the address?
1063 2013-03-22 12:29:07 <sipa> qdii: a private key is a number between 1 and 115792089237316195423570985008687907852837564279074904382605163141518161494336
1064 2013-03-22 12:29:15 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1065 2013-03-22 12:29:35 <sipa> qdii: this number is "EC multiplied" by the base point, to result in an (X,Y) coordinate pair
1066 2013-03-22 12:29:43 <sipa> that coordinate pair is the public key
1067 2013-03-22 12:29:47 i2pRelay has joined
1068 2013-03-22 12:29:55 <sipa> the RIPEMD160 of the SHA256 hash of that public key, is your address
1069 2013-03-22 12:30:05 <Diablo-D3> the base58 of that is
1070 2013-03-22 12:30:08 <sipa> indeed
1071 2013-03-22 12:30:09 <chmod755> haha. love how sipa explains it
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1073 2013-03-22 12:30:43 <Scrat> the best known process for generating an address (double hashed public key) from a private key is still brute force
1074 2013-03-22 12:30:46 <chmod755> i guess $averagejoe would find it difficult to understand that
1075 2013-03-22 12:30:51 pyrobisqit has joined
1076 2013-03-22 12:31:02 <sipa> chmod755: yeah, haven't found an easier but correct way :(
1077 2013-03-22 12:31:03 <Scrat> private to public key is better than brute force but still insanely hard
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1079 2013-03-22 12:31:23 <qdii> okay, so the address is hashed from the key pair, now it makes more sense
1080 2013-03-22 12:31:36 <sipa> qdii: the only thing ever revealed, is the full public key; the private key is never revealed to the network
1081 2013-03-22 12:32:04 <sipa> and going from the public key to the private key is assumed to be a hard mathematical problem
1082 2013-03-22 12:32:22 <sipa> (i.e., impossible in practice)
1083 2013-03-22 12:32:40 <sipa> qdii: an address is the hash of a public key; not of a key pair
1084 2013-03-22 12:32:54 <chmod755> sipa, i think people don't need to understand everything about bitcoin. I'm pretty sure most people don't understand everything about paypal or the banking system....etc
1085 2013-03-22 12:33:00 <sipa> qdii: the fact that the public key itself is a coordinate pair is an unfortunate coincidence :)
1086 2013-03-22 12:33:11 <sipa> chmod755: sure- but they do ask questions, and they should
1087 2013-03-22 12:33:24 <chmod755> ofc, if they want to ;)
1088 2013-03-22 12:33:29 <qdii> alright, so theoretically I could generate those pairs in bulk, compute the associated address until I find one that match any of the block-chain, then rip that poor lad off
1089 2013-03-22 12:33:37 <sipa> yes
1090 2013-03-22 12:33:52 <qdii> but there are a lot
1091 2013-03-22 12:33:54 <sipa> however, if the entire fleet of bitcoin miners right now would be converted to efficient address-miners
1092 2013-03-22 12:34:32 <sipa> it would take something like 712495264985980662 times the age of the universe before someone has a reasonable chance of hitting your address
1093 2013-03-22 12:34:41 * qdii likes that someone actually does the math
1094 2013-03-22 12:35:12 <qdii> alright. I donât believe in loto either
1095 2013-03-22 12:35:26 <chmod755> sipa, did you do the math including "address-mining asics"?
1096 2013-03-22 12:35:28 <qdii> okay, well thanks for the answers, it is clearer now
1097 2013-03-22 12:35:38 <sipa> ;;calc 2**160 / (5000000000000 * 86400 * 365.25 * 13000000000)
1098 2013-03-22 12:35:38 <gribble> 712495264985980672
1099 2013-03-22 12:35:48 <chmod755> oh lol
1100 2013-03-22 12:36:02 <chmod755> wow, gribble calc is powerful!!!
1101 2013-03-22 12:36:33 <sipa> chmod755: GPUs are about 10 slower in mining address than in mining hashes
1102 2013-03-22 12:36:34 <Scrat> it cant compute 2***1025
1103 2013-03-22 12:36:40 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
1104 2013-03-22 12:36:44 * Scrat sighs at gribble
1105 2013-03-22 12:37:04 <sipa> ;;calc 1025*log(2)/log(10)
1106 2013-03-22 12:37:04 <gribble> 308.555745556
1107 2013-03-22 12:37:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1108 2013-03-22 12:37:23 <sipa> ;;calc 10**0.555745556
1109 2013-03-22 12:37:23 <gribble> 3.5953862732
1110 2013-03-22 12:37:28 <Scrat> that might be the maximum message on freenode
1111 2013-03-22 12:37:33 Ogig has joined
1112 2013-03-22 12:37:34 <sipa> there you go: 3.5953 * 10^308
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1117 2013-03-22 12:40:43 <Scrat> sipa: is there an algorithm which can (attempt to) crack the ECDLP in batch mode? like it can be done with NFS
1118 2013-03-22 12:41:15 <sipa> Scrat: unsure
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1137 2013-03-22 12:54:09 <peawormsworth> I would like to read the original paper by Satoshi. Is this the proper link: http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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1139 2013-03-22 12:54:57 <Luke-Jr> should be
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1141 2013-03-22 12:56:28 <Sydna> recently there's been a whole bunch of strange blocks being mined, and it looks to me like they are all being mined by the same person/persons.
1142 2013-03-22 12:56:34 <Sydna> http://blockchain.info/blocks/46.105.119.41
1143 2013-03-22 12:56:53 <Sydna> on two occasions, this address has generated blocks in pairs. within 30 seconds of each other.
1144 2013-03-22 12:57:13 <n1c> Isn't the IP just the IP that relays the info?
1145 2013-03-22 12:57:14 <Luke-Jr> twice is hardly bunch
1146 2013-03-22 12:57:17 <n1c> Not the actual miner?
1147 2013-03-22 12:57:18 <Sydna> it's not isolated either, there's been a lot of non-pool miners coming up with very quick pairs of blocks.
1148 2013-03-22 12:57:47 <Sydna> n1c: that's correct, but blockchain.info knows the IP of most of the large pools.
1149 2013-03-22 12:58:09 <Sydna> Luke-Jr: I've been seeing these all day, there's at least 20-30 pairs in the last few days
1150 2013-03-22 12:58:17 <Sydna> it's incredibly unlikely.
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1154 2013-03-22 13:00:32 <Graet> Sydna, blockchain.info is notoriously bad at identifying pools. it display the ip that relayed it to them, not the miner
1155 2013-03-22 13:01:19 <Sydna> Graet: the mined coins end up at the same addresses, I know not to rely on the relay IP
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1157 2013-03-22 13:01:33 <Graet> http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/top.php isnt realtime, but does a much better job of identifying pools
1158 2013-03-22 13:01:34 <Nothing4You> fyi 46.105.119.41 is owned by bitcoin.cz
1159 2013-03-22 13:01:39 da2ce7_d is now known as da2ce7
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1161 2013-03-22 13:02:00 <Nothing4You> http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
1162 2013-03-22 13:02:50 <Sydna> I'm making connections that aren't there. got it.
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1168 2013-03-22 13:11:26 <peawormsworth> Sydna: maybe some miners are holding back on posting quickly discovered blocks in order to get a jump on calculating the subsequent block... thereby getting 2 close together.
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1170 2013-03-22 13:11:41 <peawormsworth> Sydna: although someone else has stated that this is a net loss effort.
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1172 2013-03-22 13:12:17 <Sydna> mm, that's what puzzled me
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1174 2013-03-22 13:13:06 * Graet loses interest in evil pooloperator theoris....
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1178 2013-03-22 13:13:51 <Sydna> it was more interesting when the miner wasn't Slush
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1183 2013-03-22 13:19:17 <Luke-Jr> peawormsworth: unless they're double spending
1184 2013-03-22 13:19:58 <Luke-Jr> which is unlikely, given that slush implements transparent/secure stratum
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1242 2013-03-22 13:58:31 <tockitj> is there a way to know if current hashing power is distributed or centralized ?
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1244 2013-03-22 13:59:41 <n1c> What do you mean?
1245 2013-03-22 14:01:02 <sipa> tockitj: there are ways to detect (some) attacks that are enabled by a party having majority control
1246 2013-03-22 14:01:19 <sipa> but as long as everyone plays fair, there isn't really any way to know whether for example two big pools have deals with eachother
1247 2013-03-22 14:01:35 <sipa> which could be considered a first step in centralization
1248 2013-03-22 14:02:42 <tockitj> these new asics are scary
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1272 2013-03-22 14:28:05 <bakingbread> hi, I removed bitcoin-qt then reinstalled (compiled it from source). But I have saved a 7G blocks folder. But when I start bitcoin-qt it says "Can't read block". Any clue? I don't want to download 7G again
1273 2013-03-22 14:29:27 * helo tries to remember the -loadblock wildcard syntax... --help fail :/
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1281 2013-03-22 14:31:27 <sipa> bakingbread: try starting with -reindex
1282 2013-03-22 14:31:39 <sipa> bakingbread: this will rebuild the database using already-available blocks
1283 2013-03-22 14:31:43 <sipa> it may still take hours, though
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1287 2013-03-22 14:33:58 <bakingbread> hm
1288 2013-03-22 14:34:14 <helo> it seems unintuitive that blocks could be read with -reindex that cannot be read without it, maybe?
1289 2013-03-22 14:35:52 <n1c> Not really
1290 2013-03-22 14:35:57 <n1c> Maybe they can't be read, because they can't read the index?
1291 2013-03-22 14:36:05 <n1c> (random guessing)
1292 2013-03-22 14:36:08 <helo> so "Can't read index"?
1293 2013-03-22 14:37:45 <bakingbread> msg was like I wrote
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1296 2013-03-22 14:39:07 <bakingbread> I just wonder, why this happened at all? I kept the whole ~/.bitcoin folder untouched
1297 2013-03-22 14:41:15 <helo> what was the old vs new version?
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1308 2013-03-22 14:47:49 <bakingbread> both versions were 0.8.0 yet, the second is slightly newer from github repository
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1312 2013-03-22 14:51:39 <sipa> bakingbread: can you paste some (relevant) lines/pages from debug.log on a paste site?
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1320 2013-03-22 14:56:14 <bakingbread> sipa: well, I have trouble finding out what is relevant, it now has 200k lines
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1322 2013-03-22 14:58:24 <CodeShark> the part where you started the new version for the first time is probably relevant
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1325 2013-03-22 14:59:32 <CodeShark> grep for a bunch of empty lines :)
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1332 2013-03-22 15:04:04 <bakingbread> hmm it seems to work now...
1333 2013-03-22 15:04:13 <bakingbread> I don't know what I did
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1335 2013-03-22 15:04:46 <bakingbread> it's catching up with the network slowly yet steady but doesn't seem to download much
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1339 2013-03-22 15:07:09 <bakingbread> well anyway... does the casual user need to download tons of GBs to use bitcoin?
1340 2013-03-22 15:07:52 <CodeShark> no - they can either use a SVP client or an online wallet :)
1341 2013-03-22 15:08:11 <CodeShark> err, SPV
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1349 2013-03-22 15:12:40 <bakingbread> I see, how secure is using SPV?
1350 2013-03-22 15:13:25 <sipa> bakingbread: it assumes the chain with the most (verified) proof-of-work is valid
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1354 2013-03-22 15:15:02 <sipa> bakingbread: which doesn't say much about security, but rather something about the attack model in theory
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1356 2013-03-22 15:15:57 <CodeShark> the point is that while an SPV client could be tricked into accepting blocks that break the rules, in practice it would be very difficult to construct such a chain
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1361 2013-03-22 15:16:12 <fdsaghewa> http://redd.it/1asun8 âââ50 Bitcoin + Free extra 2 Bitcoin=1199.99 [delivery in 5 minutes]no phone call for verify,no personal information need
1362 2013-03-22 15:16:47 <CodeShark> spammers and scammers aren't welcome here. please die.
1363 2013-03-22 15:16:49 fdsaegw has joined
1364 2013-03-22 15:16:53 <fdsaegw> http://redd.it/1asun8 âââ50 Bitcoin + Free extra 2 Bitcoin=1199.99 [delivery in 5 minutes]no phone call for verify,no personal information need
1365 2013-03-22 15:17:08 <shlm> sounds legit.
1366 2013-03-22 15:17:15 <CodeShark> lol
1367 2013-03-22 15:17:41 <bakingbread> is it a sign bitcoin becomes mainstream?
1368 2013-03-22 15:18:04 <bakingbread> I mean the spam
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1371 2013-03-22 15:18:22 <Luke-Jr> more like a sign we're on freenode
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1374 2013-03-22 15:20:42 <keystroke> haha
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1383 2013-03-22 15:23:39 <Billdr> I'm building a bot. I want it to auth with Gribble, but that means it has to be in a channel Gribble watches. I don't know the ediquitte for this... is it okay if my bot jumps in and out of this channel?
1384 2013-03-22 15:24:04 <flyingkiwiguy> Billdr: try #bitcoinconsultancy?
1385 2013-03-22 15:24:14 pyrobisqit has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1386 2013-03-22 15:24:18 <Luke-Jr> Billdr: as soon as it leaves the channel, it will lose auth
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1389 2013-03-22 15:24:52 <flyingkiwiguy> sorry, ignore that, no gribble there
1390 2013-03-22 15:25:08 <Billdr> Right Luke. I'm trying to build it's authentication loop.
1391 2013-03-22 15:25:15 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1392 2013-03-22 15:25:57 <Luke-Jr> Billdr: perhaps #bitcoin-otc-foyer
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1400 2013-03-22 15:26:50 <Billdr> I'll give it a try. Thanks
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1405 2013-03-22 15:36:45 <Luke-Jr> nanotube: why isnt gribble in #bitcoin-bots btw?
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1415 2013-03-22 15:46:04 <nanotube> Luke-Jr: what goes on there?
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1419 2013-03-22 15:49:40 <Luke-Jr> nanotube: I presume it'd be useful for what Billdr wants
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1427 2013-03-22 15:54:24 <dfsad> hello
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1433 2013-03-22 15:58:11 <nanotube> Luke-Jr: ah well, there's #gribble for that. <-- Billdr
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1436 2013-03-22 16:00:00 <nanotube> though #bitcoin-otc-foyer will be just fine also.
1437 2013-03-22 16:01:01 chmod755 has quit (Quit: chmod755)
1438 2013-03-22 16:01:21 Anduck has joined
1439 2013-03-22 16:01:27 <MobGod> anything good for a desktop ticker for mac ?
1440 2013-03-22 16:01:42 kricket has joined
1441 2013-03-22 16:01:56 ibno has joined
1442 2013-03-22 16:02:02 <MobGod> oops
1443 2013-03-22 16:02:31 JDuke128 has joined
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1446 2013-03-22 16:03:26 <ibno> as
1447 2013-03-22 16:05:12 <Luke-Jr> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=922433 lol
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1450 2013-03-22 16:06:34 <TD> bahaha
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1457 2013-03-22 16:09:34 <sipa> 307/53714 transactions with non-canonical signatures
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1514 2013-03-22 16:55:12 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: See githubmail. The spotlight is on you now, Kid.
1515 2013-03-22 16:55:39 <CodeShark> hmm??!?! what'd I do?
1516 2013-03-22 16:56:21 <CodeShark> ok :)
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1580 2013-03-22 17:49:57 <MC-Droid_> We want to work with authorities," said Jeff Garzik, a Bitcoin developer
1581 2013-03-22 17:50:11 <MC-Droid_> what exactly does that mean?
1582 2013-03-22 17:50:21 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1583 2013-03-22 17:50:29 <MC-Droid_> out of context press quote?
1584 2013-03-22 17:50:36 nus-- has joined
1585 2013-03-22 17:50:38 <Diablo-D3> MC-Droid_: it means we're not criminals.
1586 2013-03-22 17:50:43 <Billdr> Well, they're going to need a hand taking apart their economies, and we want to help.
1587 2013-03-22 17:50:45 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1588 2013-03-22 17:50:46 <Diablo-D3> but yes, its out of context
1589 2013-03-22 17:50:49 <Diablo-D3> the government ALREADY can view the entire chain
1590 2013-03-22 17:50:58 <MC-Droid_> yes
1591 2013-03-22 17:51:04 <Diablo-D3> all of bitcoin is completely public and non-anonymous
1592 2013-03-22 17:51:10 <MC-Droid_> yes
1593 2013-03-22 17:51:17 i2pRelay has joined
1594 2013-03-22 17:51:20 <Diablo-D3> we've revolutionized the government, really
1595 2013-03-22 17:51:28 <Diablo-D3> they can now run a perl script to see if anyone is money laundering
1596 2013-03-22 17:51:28 <MC-Droid_> so in what way can "we" work with them
1597 2013-03-22 17:51:34 <gmaxwell> Transparency++
1598 2013-03-22 17:51:34 <Diablo-D3> no needing all these fucking forms and shit
1599 2013-03-22 17:51:40 honkydong has joined
1600 2013-03-22 17:51:47 <MC-Droid_> and why do "we" specifically want to
1601 2013-03-22 17:51:49 <Diablo-D3> MC-Droid_: well, the CIA iirc was talking to gavin about something at one point
1602 2013-03-22 17:52:16 <Diablo-D3> if you're not a criminal, lying to the government is a supremely bad idea
1603 2013-03-22 17:52:45 toffoo has joined
1604 2013-03-22 17:53:11 <seba--> lying is good
1605 2013-03-22 17:53:15 <MC-Droid_> i wonder if its a bit of preemptive prostration on jeffs part as bitcoin approaches 1bn market cap
1606 2013-03-22 17:53:19 <MC-Droid_> i wouldnt blame him
1607 2013-03-22 17:53:51 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid_: it's not even news, we've made similar comments in the pastâ
1608 2013-03-22 17:53:54 <honkydong> for a betting website; should i add the transaction to the total figure before confirmation (then before sending the total figure to the winner i verify all the transactions)... so it can be instant. or is that dumb - should i verify the transactions before doing anything with them?
1609 2013-03-22 17:54:44 <MC-Droid_> i know im just trying to find out what wanting the help the govt really.means
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1611 2013-03-22 17:54:48 <gavinandresen> for the record, I mostly talked to the CIA, they didn't talk much with me.
1612 2013-03-22 17:55:05 _pr has joined
1613 2013-03-22 17:55:29 <MC-Droid_> the CIA thing is overblown
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1615 2013-03-22 17:56:30 <jgarzik> har
1616 2013-03-22 17:56:37 <jgarzik> C.A. troll successful
1617 2013-03-22 17:56:40 glitch003 has joined
1618 2013-03-22 17:57:08 <glitch003> when a block is solved, how does the solver obtain the reward? does he put a BTC address in with the solution, or what?
1619 2013-03-22 17:57:10 <MC-Droid_> U TROL ME
1620 2013-03-22 17:57:39 <jgarzik> glitch003: every block has a "coinbase" transaction, which pays to yourself
1621 2013-03-22 17:57:58 <glitch003> ahh i see
1622 2013-03-22 17:58:24 stochasm has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1623 2013-03-22 17:58:38 <jouke> Does that coinbase transaction need to have the whole reward to be valid?
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1628 2013-03-22 18:00:11 <gmaxwell> jouke: No.
1629 2013-03-22 18:00:29 <jgarzik> That's an interesting question
1630 2013-03-22 18:00:41 <jgarzik> I know coinbase cannot be _greater_ than the subsidy + fees
1631 2013-03-22 18:00:48 <jgarzik> but dunno if "less" is permissible
1632 2013-03-22 18:00:48 <gmaxwell> It can be less, and has been less.
1633 2013-03-22 18:01:03 stochasm has joined
1634 2013-03-22 18:02:02 <gmaxwell> Midnightmagic intentionally mined less and accidentally mined more less than he intended. A bug in some block construction code caused p2poolers to burn a modest amount of coin around the time of the P2SH changes.
1635 2013-03-22 18:02:16 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: [BB])
1636 2013-03-22 18:02:27 giusepp__ has joined
1637 2013-03-22 18:02:32 <gmaxwell> (a bitcoind bug, not p2pool bug)
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1639 2013-03-22 18:04:17 <sipa> gavinandresen: i loved your reply to "And what did the CIA think?" on the forum: "The CIA does not tell you what they think."
1640 2013-03-22 18:05:07 <gavinandresen> They really don't⦠they're trained not to talk.
1641 2013-03-22 18:05:20 <sytse> ah.. like politicians
1642 2013-03-22 18:05:21 <gavinandresen> (even to each other)
1643 2013-03-22 18:05:31 <sytse> again like politicians
1644 2013-03-22 18:05:32 <sipa> gavinandresen: and even under torture, i suppose :)
1645 2013-03-22 18:05:35 <gavinandresen> politicians are trained to talk but not say anything
1646 2013-03-22 18:05:41 <sytse> sipa: like politicans :P
1647 2013-03-22 18:05:44 <sytse> *politicians
1648 2013-03-22 18:05:53 <sytse> gavinandresen: good point.
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1650 2013-03-22 18:06:37 <sytse> sipa: at least, with s/under torture/while being questioned by the media/
1651 2013-03-22 18:06:38 Lolcust has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1652 2013-03-22 18:06:52 <sytse> which is similar
1653 2013-03-22 18:06:53 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1654 2013-03-22 18:06:57 <sipa> sytse: there's a large difference
1655 2013-03-22 18:07:09 <sipa> media doesn't demand the truth; they demand sensation :)
1656 2013-03-22 18:07:25 i2pRelay has joined
1657 2013-03-22 18:07:40 <sytse> sipa: when tortured the truth isn't demanded either, just something incriminating ;p
1658 2013-03-22 18:08:14 <gavinandresen> speaking of torture⦠wait, no, torture is off-topic for this channel.
1659 2013-03-22 18:08:40 <sytse> life is torture, so I guess life is off-topic as well
1660 2013-03-22 18:08:41 <sytse> too bad
1661 2013-03-22 18:09:11 <gavinandresen> sipa: I'd like to pull https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2357 sooner rather than later, can I get a quick review/ACK ?
1662 2013-03-22 18:10:21 <sipa> gavinandresen: very much agree with the change in general, but haven't had the time to check it thoroughly
1663 2013-03-22 18:10:48 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1664 2013-03-22 18:10:50 <sipa> no pulltester builds after the last change?
1665 2013-03-22 18:11:07 <gavinandresen> pulltester is broken right now
1666 2013-03-22 18:11:28 <gavinandresen> I'll bribe somebody to fix it⦠it needs the new 4500 locks rule
1667 2013-03-22 18:11:49 <gavinandresen> fixing it requires a java bitcoinj build environment, which I don't want to setup
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1672 2013-03-22 18:14:39 <sytse> why 'return (fRet ? 0 : 1);', and not just 'return fRet == 0;'?
1673 2013-03-22 18:14:41 <sytse> (cosmetic)
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1675 2013-03-22 18:15:07 <sytse> man, too long ago to remember precisely what the standards said about implicit bool->int conversions
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1680 2013-03-22 18:17:22 <sytse> gavinandresen: either that, or 'return !fRet;', which makes it even more clear that you're actually just inverting the bool
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1684 2013-03-22 18:18:54 <CodeShark> I wonder what the compiler turns that into
1685 2013-03-22 18:19:01 oleganza has joined
1686 2013-03-22 18:19:05 <CodeShark> is it smart enough to eliminate the branching?
1687 2013-03-22 18:19:22 <gavinandresen> sytse: -ENOCARE
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1691 2013-03-22 18:19:40 <gavinandresen> sytse: ⦠and that kind of nit-picking drives me nuts
1692 2013-03-22 18:19:44 <sytse> fine.
1693 2013-03-22 18:20:21 <sytse> CodeShark: all the same, test eax,eax; sete al on amd64. But it's not really that interesting
1694 2013-03-22 18:21:11 <sytse> oh and a movzbl eax,al..
1695 2013-03-22 18:21:43 <sipa> we should turn that conditional expression into an inline asm block, to make sure it's compiled efficiently! *ducks*
1696 2013-03-22 18:21:50 <CodeShark> lol
1697 2013-03-22 18:21:56 <sytse> :D
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1700 2013-03-22 18:23:04 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: have you played around with the multibit multiwallet support?
1701 2013-03-22 18:23:28 i2pRelay has joined
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1703 2013-03-22 18:23:44 <jgarzik> CodeShark: Please fix your commit message
1704 2013-03-22 18:24:00 <jgarzik> CodeShark: The official description of your change is not "Rebased support for multiwallets in bitcoin-qt with master branch."
1705 2013-03-22 18:24:09 <CodeShark> What should it be?
1706 2013-03-22 18:24:16 <jgarzik> CodeShark: that is a description of an action you took a few minutes ago, _not_ a description of the change itself
1707 2013-03-22 18:24:33 <CodeShark> ok. that's what the multiwallet-qt.txt file is for - but I'll add a few more notes
1708 2013-03-22 18:24:46 <jgarzik> CodeShark: commit message the code changes itself. The first line of the commit message is a one-line summary of the change.
1709 2013-03-22 18:24:56 <jgarzik> *describes the
1710 2013-03-22 18:24:56 <CodeShark> ok, gotcha
1711 2013-03-22 18:25:04 K1773R is now known as K1773R|OFF
1712 2013-03-22 18:25:20 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: have you used the multibit multi-wallet support?
1713 2013-03-22 18:25:31 Lolcust has joined
1714 2013-03-22 18:25:42 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: hold your horse...I'll answer in a moment...
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1718 2013-03-22 18:27:51 <CodeShark> jgarzik: is that better?
1719 2013-03-22 18:27:53 n5 has joined
1720 2013-03-22 18:29:42 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: I've run it a few times and looked through the source code a little - but I wouldn't say I've "used" it in the sense of actually receiving and sending bitcoin
1721 2013-03-22 18:29:53 <jgarzik> CodeShark: Objection removed, yes, thanks. To pick a nit, not much point in giving a full URL to the file that is already contained in the very same commit.
1722 2013-03-22 18:30:10 <jgarzik> CodeShark: Just say "see multiwallet-qt.txt in this commit for details" etc.
1723 2013-03-22 18:30:12 K1773R is now known as OFF!~K1773Rfre@www.darkgamex.ch|K1773R
1724 2013-03-22 18:30:16 <jgarzik> or nothing at all
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1726 2013-03-22 18:30:17 <CodeShark> oh, right - sorry
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1728 2013-03-22 18:30:23 <CodeShark> I can remove that
1729 2013-03-22 18:30:28 <CodeShark> I just copy/pasted brainlessly :p
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1733 2013-03-22 18:31:23 <CodeShark> ok, done
1734 2013-03-22 18:31:28 i2pRelay has joined
1735 2013-03-22 18:32:16 qdii has joined
1736 2013-03-22 18:32:48 <qdii> hey. some more questions. If I understand correctly, what determines the correct balance in the accounts is the longest block chain
1737 2013-03-22 18:33:23 <CodeShark> qdii: strictly speaking, there are no accounts - just unclaimed transaction outputs. your private keys allow you to claim those outputs
1738 2013-03-22 18:33:43 <qdii> okay, I understand that
1739 2013-03-22 18:33:57 <CodeShark> qdii: so the "balance" of an address is really a sum of all the unspent outputs that are claimable by the private key corresponding to that address
1740 2013-03-22 18:34:01 <qdii> now, I read that mining consisted in finding blocks which fit certain criterions
1741 2013-03-22 18:34:11 <qdii> ok
1742 2013-03-22 18:34:25 <qdii> but what happens when I issue a transaction
1743 2013-03-22 18:34:36 <qdii> how does it make its way to a block?
1744 2013-03-22 18:34:48 <qdii> there is something unclear here
1745 2013-03-22 18:34:52 <jgarzik> qdii: the transaction is broadcast throughout the entire network
1746 2013-03-22 18:34:54 <kjj> you pick one or more unspent transactions, bundle them up with one or more outputs, sign it, and broadcast it to the network
1747 2013-03-22 18:35:04 <jgarzik> qdii: miners listen on the network, collect transactions, and put them into blocks
1748 2013-03-22 18:35:26 <CodeShark> qdii: you tell your peers about it, they check that it is valid and then relay it to other peers - until it reaches a miner that puts it into a block
1749 2013-03-22 18:35:47 <kjj> a block is not much more than a list of transactions
1750 2013-03-22 18:36:22 <qdii> ah okay. IÂ thought that the role of the miner was just to find a block, and add it to the chain
1751 2013-03-22 18:36:38 <gmaxwell> crazy.. multibit uses the same wallet in testnet and production modes.
1752 2013-03-22 18:36:48 <qdii> how many transaction does a block contain?
1753 2013-03-22 18:37:07 <CodeShark> qdii: the miner just publishes the block. it is automatically added by nodes by virtue of the fact it points to the previous block
1754 2013-03-22 18:37:08 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: thats okay if it treats testnet as just another currency
1755 2013-03-22 18:37:09 <kjj> there is never "a block" that everyone is looking for. every miner makes their own blocks using transactions they know about, according to their own rules
1756 2013-03-22 18:37:11 <qdii> kjj: could you explain to me what are "input" and "output" ?
1757 2013-03-22 18:37:16 <gmaxwell> qdii: from one to as many as a miner wishes to put in it, subject to the maximum block data size.
1758 2013-03-22 18:37:31 <pjorrit_> or 0 ;\
1759 2013-03-22 18:37:35 <kjj> qdii: your balance is the sum of the values of the unspent outputs that you are able to sign using keys held by your wallet
1760 2013-03-22 18:38:15 <gmaxwell> kjj: Miners perform no signing. I realize you may have been trying to simplify there, but I strongly expect that simplfication to result in further confusion later. :)
1761 2013-03-22 18:38:18 <kjj> qdii: you get them as outputs that someone before you spent, to you. when you spend them, they become inputs to the next transaction
1762 2013-03-22 18:38:20 <qdii> let's say I am a miner. While I am burning up my GPUÂ trying to find a suitable block, I also have a series of valid transactions waiting to be engraved?
1763 2013-03-22 18:38:26 n5 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1765 2013-03-22 18:38:56 <CodeShark> qdii: you pick a set of transactions you want to include in your block and find the root of a merkle tree of them - and then add that to the block header. only the block header gets hashed
1766 2013-03-22 18:39:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1767 2013-03-22 18:39:07 <kjj> gmaxwell: I don't think I ever said that miners do signing, did I?
1768 2013-03-22 18:39:32 i2pRelay has joined
1769 2013-03-22 18:39:36 <gmaxwell> kjj: ha. I missed the word "unspent" in 11:13 < kjj> you pick one or more unspent transactions, bundle them up with one or more outputs, sign it, and broadcast it to the network
1770 2013-03-22 18:39:42 <gmaxwell> and thought you were talking about mining!
1771 2013-03-22 18:39:56 <CodeShark> qdii: once you find the block, you send both the header and the transaction list to peers
1772 2013-03-22 18:40:00 <gmaxwell> My apologies.
1773 2013-03-22 18:40:15 <kjj> no worries
1774 2013-03-22 18:40:41 FredEE has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1775 2013-03-22 18:40:48 <CodeShark> qdii: peers can verify that the transaction list isn't tampered with by checking the merkle root themselves
1776 2013-03-22 18:40:56 <kjj> I still think that someone other than me should write a detailed technical primer
1777 2013-03-22 18:41:51 Hasimir has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1778 2013-03-22 18:41:55 <qdii> This is a bit complicated. I am not sure what output/input are and I still canât make sense out of it after reading kjj's explanation. I will blame my brain or my command of English. I am not sure what "unspent" means in this context, either
1779 2013-03-22 18:42:08 <kjj> bitcoin has a lot of moving parts, and it is hard to figure out how they all fit together
1780 2013-03-22 18:42:26 <kjj> qdii: ok
1781 2013-03-22 18:42:42 <qdii> I liked bitcoin for the concept, now I am enjoying understanding the inner workings
1782 2013-03-22 18:42:51 <CodeShark> qdii: transactions have one or more outputs. each output can be claimed exactly once. when it is claimed, it must be claimed in its entirety.
1783 2013-03-22 18:43:03 <CodeShark> if you don't want to spend it all at once, you have to send change to a new output
1784 2013-03-22 18:43:48 <CodeShark> if a transaction claims an output that has already been claimed by another transaction in the block chain, it is considered invalid by peers
1785 2013-03-22 18:44:07 <qdii> so output is a bitcoin address?
1786 2013-03-22 18:44:14 OneMiner has quit (Quit: Do fish get thirsty?)
1787 2013-03-22 18:44:29 <CodeShark> the output is actually a bitcoin amount along with a script that specifies how it can be claimed
1788 2013-03-22 18:44:36 <qdii> okay
1789 2013-03-22 18:44:45 <CodeShark> using a bitcoin address is just one of several possible ways
1790 2013-03-22 18:44:52 <kjj> hmm. I send you 1 BTC. Ignore the details for now, but I'm creating a transaction that has one output, 1 BTC, and contains your address
1791 2013-03-22 18:45:34 <kjj> imagine that your wallet is real, you now have a coin in it with a value of 1. That coin is what we call an "unspent transaction output"
1792 2013-03-22 18:45:46 MJR__ has joined
1793 2013-03-22 18:45:48 <CodeShark> qdii: for a good technical overview I recommend satoshi's original paper and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
1794 2013-03-22 18:46:56 <qdii> kjj, okay
1795 2013-03-22 18:47:02 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1796 2013-03-22 18:47:12 <kjj> now you want to give 0.5 BTC to someone else. You take that "unspent transaction output" or UTXO, and put it into a little data structure, along with two new outputs.
1797 2013-03-22 18:47:28 <kjj> one output is 0.5 to the person you wanted to send to, and the other is to a new address in your wallet
1798 2013-03-22 18:47:34 i2pRelay has joined
1799 2013-03-22 18:47:44 <kjj> inside that data structure, there are two lists. one list is inputs, the other list is outputs
1800 2013-03-22 18:47:53 cypherdoc has joined
1801 2013-03-22 18:47:56 <CodeShark> doesn't have to be a new address but it usually is. however, it does have to be a new output
1802 2013-03-22 18:47:57 <kjj> the input to your new transaction is the previously unspent output you had before
1803 2013-03-22 18:49:00 <qdii> is it simplifying to see output as a pair { amount, address } ?
1804 2013-03-22 18:49:15 <sipa> qdii: yes, you could simplify it that way
1805 2013-03-22 18:49:29 <sipa> technically, it's a script instead of an address, but close enough
1806 2013-03-22 18:49:48 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1809 2013-03-22 18:49:49 <CodeShark> a script that says "the owner of a private key that can sign for this address can claim it"
1810 2013-03-22 18:50:05 <qdii> ahh
1811 2013-03-22 18:50:50 <qdii> okay, now, claiming a transaction?
1812 2013-03-22 18:50:55 <ashod> hi all, - can a txid exist in more than one block ?
1813 2013-03-22 18:51:19 <kjj> outputs are "named" by the hash of the transaction they are in, and their sequence in the list
1814 2013-03-22 18:51:36 Hasimir has joined
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1816 2013-03-22 18:52:22 <sipa> ashod: it could, in very obscure circumstances; this was fixed in BIP30
1817 2013-03-22 18:52:29 <kjj> the combination of {txhash,sequence} is only valid once (not counting an odd exception that I think is totally closed now)
1818 2013-03-22 18:52:49 <qdii> I mean, if A issues a transaction with one output { 1, B }, and that output stays unclaimed, will over nodes on the network consider that A has less money than before
1819 2013-03-22 18:53:05 <qdii> I suppose not, but that's just to make things clear
1820 2013-03-22 18:53:16 <kjj> qdii: the network doesn't know about accounts, balances, keys, anything like that
1821 2013-03-22 18:53:23 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1822 2013-03-22 18:53:23 <CodeShark> the network doesn't keep track of who owns what
1823 2013-03-22 18:53:30 <sipa> qdii: yes, as the transaction to create that { 1, B } output will consume some of A's coins
1824 2013-03-22 18:53:32 D34TH has joined
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1827 2013-03-22 18:53:35 <sivu> bitcoinj experts around?
1828 2013-03-22 18:54:10 <CodeShark> the "balance" of an address remains unchanged until outputs to that address are claimed
1829 2013-03-22 18:54:19 <qdii> sipa: so the total sum of bitcoins throughout the nodes is changing
1830 2013-03-22 18:54:23 <kjj> qdii: if A tries to make a second transaction spending {1,B} again, the network will ignore it, so his node should reduce the amount of spendable coins that it tells him he has
1831 2013-03-22 18:54:46 <qdii> CodeShark: isnât that the opposite of what sipa just said?
1832 2013-03-22 18:54:54 <kjj> ok, the hard part that you need to wrap your head around now is that there are no bitcoins
1833 2013-03-22 18:55:04 <sipa> qdii: the network remembers which coins exist, and which "address" (actually: script) they are assigned to
1834 2013-03-22 18:55:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1835 2013-03-22 18:55:12 <kjj> they don't live on nodes, or the network, or anywhere. they don't exist
1836 2013-03-22 18:55:21 _pr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1837 2013-03-22 18:55:23 <sipa> qdii: every transaction a) consumes some of those coins and b) produces some new coins of equal value
1838 2013-03-22 18:55:26 <qdii> yea, I guess there are only transactions
1839 2013-03-22 18:55:37 i2pRelay has joined
1840 2013-03-22 18:55:50 <CodeShark> sipa: with the exception of generation transactions, which consume no coins
1841 2013-03-22 18:56:09 <kjj> but we do sometimes use the word "coin" or "bitcoin" to refer to a transaction output. it helps make some analogies work better
1842 2013-03-22 18:56:09 <qdii> that was my next question
1843 2013-03-22 18:57:24 <qdii> kjj: I completely understand that trick, but I discovered bitcoins a couple hours ago so it helps me to talk about "balance" rather than "the sum of all transactions since epoch"
1844 2013-03-22 18:57:56 <kjj> holy shit, you learned fast. took me weeks or months to start asking the kinds of questions you are asking
1845 2013-03-22 18:58:20 <qdii> kjj: because there was no kjj, CodeShark and sipa to answer you :)
1846 2013-03-22 18:58:48 <kjj> no, Sipa's been around forever
1847 2013-03-22 18:59:11 <sipa> it took me at least a month to learn that bitcoin didn't track balances per address :)
1848 2013-03-22 18:59:15 <qdii> okay, so this should really be "kjj" and "CodeShark" who matter then
1849 2013-03-22 18:59:19 <kjj> gotta run for a bit
1850 2013-03-22 18:59:20 <sipa> this was in nov/dec 2010 somewhere :)
1851 2013-03-22 18:59:21 <gmaxwell> There was a time before sipa, but people wore bellbottoms then, so we don't talk about those times much.
1852 2013-03-22 18:59:23 [\\\] has quit ()
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1855 2013-03-22 18:59:40 Anduck has joined
1856 2013-03-22 19:00:30 <qdii> in the meantime, bitcoin-qt has had time to fill up my hard drive
1857 2013-03-22 19:01:16 <qdii> Am I correct to assume that the 6.3GB it just downloaded are the block list?
1858 2013-03-22 19:01:33 <sipa> the actual blocks
1859 2013-03-22 19:01:36 <gmaxwell> qdii: it's the complete content of all the blocks so far.
1860 2013-03-22 19:01:44 kadoban has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1864 2013-03-22 19:03:30 <qdii> okay, but as an output is "{ amount, script }", my fantasy that once the blocks will be downloaded I will get those GB back is just impossible, right?
1865 2013-03-22 19:03:39 i2pRelay has joined
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1867 2013-03-22 19:04:41 <sipa> actually, it is
1868 2013-03-22 19:04:45 <sivu> bitcoinj gives scriptexception when trying to get fromAddress from transaction that has coinbase output as input
1869 2013-03-22 19:04:45 <sipa> but it's not yet implemented
1870 2013-03-22 19:04:59 karmaon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1871 2013-03-22 19:05:03 <qdii> I can only see such thing for claimed transaction
1872 2013-03-22 19:05:05 <sivu> i thought it can only happen with the actual coinbase transaction itself
1873 2013-03-22 19:05:26 Lolcust has joined
1874 2013-03-22 19:05:33 <qdii> (hm, not even, actually)
1875 2013-03-22 19:06:09 <sipa> qdii: the chainstate/ directory you have contains data about which unspent transaction outputs exist currently (=coins), with which amounts and assigned to which scripts (it contains a bit more metadata than that, but let's ignore that)
1876 2013-03-22 19:06:18 <sipa> qdii: that is all you need to validate transactions and blocks
1877 2013-03-22 19:06:38 Tron- has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1878 2013-03-22 19:07:25 Tron- has joined
1879 2013-03-22 19:07:27 <qdii> okay
1880 2013-03-22 19:07:49 <sipa> qdii: the blocks on disk are only needed 1) during reorganisations, when we switch from one chain to another, but those are limited to the last few blocks only
1881 2013-03-22 19:08:04 <sipa> 2) to rescan for missing transactions (which may be necessary if you swap wallets, ...)
1882 2013-03-22 19:08:08 <qdii> do these reorganisations happen frequently?
1883 2013-03-22 19:08:10 <sipa> 3) to serve blocks to other nodes
1884 2013-03-22 19:08:11 <sipa> yes
1885 2013-03-22 19:08:17 <sipa> very small ones do
1886 2013-03-22 19:08:49 int0x27h has joined
1887 2013-03-22 19:09:11 <sipa> if we make it possible to have a node on the network that does not provide blocks, it's possible to delete all not-very-recent ones
1888 2013-03-22 19:09:34 <qdii> but Iâd guess when you switch from one chain to another, 99% of the chain is the same right?
1889 2013-03-22 19:09:38 <qdii> hu
1890 2013-03-22 19:09:44 <sipa> yes
1891 2013-03-22 19:09:52 <sipa> it's typically just the last 1-2 blocks that change
1892 2013-03-22 19:10:28 <CodeShark> there have only been a couple times when a large number of blocks have changed
1893 2013-03-22 19:10:36 <sipa> and those were always because of bugs
1894 2013-03-22 19:10:38 <qdii> so the data of the 99% is useless for reorganisation (just keep a checksum of all these headers)
1895 2013-03-22 19:10:57 <sipa> well, you still need the actual headers
1896 2013-03-22 19:11:03 <sipa> but that's 80 bytes per block
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1898 2013-03-22 19:11:25 <sipa> or 4 MiB per year
1899 2013-03-22 19:11:29 <qdii> I am just feeling sorry for my SSD
1900 2013-03-22 19:11:42 i2pRelay has joined
1901 2013-03-22 19:12:07 <qdii> <sipa> if we make it possible to have a node on the network that does not provide blocks, it's possible to delete all not-very-recent ones
1902 2013-03-22 19:12:10 Lolcust has quit (Quit: Nap time)
1903 2013-03-22 19:12:12 <qdii> actually I donât understand that
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1905 2013-03-22 19:12:36 <CodeShark> sipa: some good number of nodes still need to keep the blocks in their entirety so new nodes can verify the chain
1906 2013-03-22 19:13:09 <qdii> I mean, if SOME nodes decide that they wonât serve other nodes
1907 2013-03-22 19:13:27 Lolcust has joined
1908 2013-03-22 19:13:28 <qdii> because they have an SSD hard drive and they want to keep it low memory
1909 2013-03-22 19:13:32 <CodeShark> qdii: nodes can specify what they provide in the initial version message
1910 2013-03-22 19:13:35 bakingbread has quit (Quit: quit)
1911 2013-03-22 19:13:36 <CodeShark> which is part of the handshake
1912 2013-03-22 19:13:51 <CodeShark> however, what sipa is saying hasn't really been fully implemented
1913 2013-03-22 19:13:51 Exocyst_ has joined
1914 2013-03-22 19:13:54 bakingbread has joined
1915 2013-03-22 19:14:01 <sipa> qdii: imagine 90% of nodes do not serve historic blocks
1916 2013-03-22 19:14:24 <qdii> that's why I put all these capital letters in âsomeâ
1917 2013-03-22 19:14:28 <sipa> qdii: i imagine that that is technically not a problem, assuming the 10% remaining ones have enough bandwidth to serve all newly started notes
1918 2013-03-22 19:14:31 <sipa> *nodes
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1920 2013-03-22 19:14:55 <CodeShark> qdii: most likely, the vast majority of nodes will just be checking proof-of-work (which only requires the block headers) and perhaps verifying the transactions for only the last several blocks
1921 2013-03-22 19:15:01 <sipa> qdii: however, if we have no way of distinguishing those types of nodes, a new node will just connect randomly, and fail when asking for block data
1922 2013-03-22 19:15:27 <sipa> qdii: so what i'm saying is just that there needs to be a mechanism to advertize that you're not serving archival data, and that clients understand that
1923 2013-03-22 19:15:46 <CodeShark> there's a field for exactly that type of data in the version message
1924 2013-03-22 19:15:46 <qdii> okay I get it
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1930 2013-03-22 19:17:05 * qdii thinks about countries using ISDN
1931 2013-03-22 19:18:12 <qdii> what was 2) again? rescan for missing transactions
1932 2013-03-22 19:18:54 <qdii> is it like, the markvel tree features a transaction checksum that I ⦠well I donât have it
1933 2013-03-22 19:19:01 <qdii> let's find it
1934 2013-03-22 19:19:06 jtimon has joined
1935 2013-03-22 19:19:10 <sipa> merkle trees don't really have something to do with it
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1938 2013-03-22 19:19:20 <sipa> imagine you restore a wallet backup that was created a year ago
1939 2013-03-22 19:19:29 <sipa> but you don't have blocks older than 1 month anymore
1940 2013-03-22 19:19:43 i2pRelay has joined
1941 2013-03-22 19:19:43 <sipa> how will that wallet ever get to know which transactions it received since?
1942 2013-03-22 19:20:01 dparrish has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1943 2013-03-22 19:20:06 K1773R is now known as K1773R|OFF
1944 2013-03-22 19:20:33 <qdii> hm, it could ask neighboring node to do the math for it
1945 2013-03-22 19:20:43 dparrish has joined
1946 2013-03-22 19:20:47 <CodeShark> qdii: the point is zero-trust, though
1947 2013-03-22 19:21:12 <CodeShark> qdii: bitcoin was designed such that each node has the ability to verify the integrity of all the history for itself
1948 2013-03-22 19:21:26 <sipa> qdii: of course, downloading the blocks again is always a solution
1949 2013-03-22 19:21:50 <sipa> and bloom filtering can even be used to only download transactions interesting to that wallet
1950 2013-03-22 19:22:08 <sipa> but that also means trusting that the peer won't filter too much
1951 2013-03-22 19:22:34 toffoo has quit ()
1952 2013-03-22 19:22:42 <CodeShark> qdii: if you can query multiple nodes and be fairly certain they are not in collusion to defraud you, you can run statistical integrity checks
1953 2013-03-22 19:23:23 jtimon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1954 2013-03-22 19:24:43 <gmaxwell> "and be fairly certain" â bleh. The whole fundimental design of bitcoin is about solving the problem that sibyl attacks are easy, and so you can't be fairly certain of that.
1955 2013-03-22 19:25:23 Lolcust has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1956 2013-03-22 19:25:43 OneMiner has joined
1957 2013-03-22 19:26:41 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: if reputable organizations stand behind specific nodes and these institutions are in a wide variety of industries which don't necessarily have common interests, there are conceivable ways to hack this :)
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1962 2013-03-22 19:28:15 <EvilPete> ozcoin dropped a fresh v1 block at 227377 in the chain a few hours ago.
1963 2013-03-22 19:28:21 daybyter has joined
1964 2013-03-22 19:28:41 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: "Bleh", first you'd need to have a non-repudable protocol for sending that data, and log it. But thats just details. That kind of thing doesn't prevent attack, just makes it potentially costly. And probably not even that. "we were forced to" "hackers compromised our systems" etc. If you find that kind of fragility acceptable, you can just use paypal and the USDâ it has mastered that kind of security and has many advantages ...
1965 2013-03-22 19:28:47 <gmaxwell> ... over Bitcoin.
1966 2013-03-22 19:30:20 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: security is seldom about making attacks impossible - it's usually about weighing different risks and making attacks sufficiently costly so that the probability of them occuring drops to a comfortable level.
1967 2013-03-22 19:31:14 kricket has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1968 2013-03-22 19:31:22 <sipa> well, bitcoin is at least an experiment in making certainly classes of attacks impossible
1969 2013-03-22 19:31:23 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
1970 2013-03-22 19:31:24 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: That wasn't my argument.
1971 2013-03-22 19:31:39 giusepp__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1972 2013-03-22 19:32:27 BenderCoin has joined
1973 2013-03-22 19:32:34 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: You're suggesting a kind of security which is perfectly ducky and fine... but it's a kind of security which achieved much better by pre-bitcoin systems without bitcoin's overheads and specific risks. I support that kind of securityâ and depend on it every day, and at the same time believe it has little place in Bitcoin.
1974 2013-03-22 19:32:46 <Exocyst> When 0.8.1 goes active, how much will the larger blocks increase transaction fee rewards?
1975 2013-03-22 19:33:36 <CodeShark> even in bitcoin, attacks are not impossible - just costly
1976 2013-03-22 19:34:02 <CodeShark> and that's assuming the underlying mathematics are correct in the first place :)
1977 2013-03-22 19:34:04 <sipa> CodeShark: getting me to accept a transaction with an invalid signature is (supposed to be) impossible
1978 2013-03-22 19:34:29 <sipa> CodeShark: creating a chain which inflates the currency more than specified by the rules is (supposed to be) impossible
1979 2013-03-22 19:34:32 <gmaxwell> Some of the things that make it acceptable elsewhere simply don't apply to Bitcoin. For example, my girlfriend was able to have a third party ACH enough funds from my bank account to buy a small house... she had my authorization but there was no way for them to know that. Worked without a hitch. ... but that kind of thing works because the transactions can be reversed after the fact if misconduct is detected.
1980 2013-03-22 19:34:59 <gmaxwell> You run significant risks trying to apply security models which are acceptable in one kind of system to an entirely different one.
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1982 2013-03-22 19:35:45 <CodeShark> sipa: there are always ways to circumvent these things if you have sufficient resources and the determination :)
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1984 2013-03-22 19:36:05 <CodeShark> the security of bitcoin depends on nobody having both of these things simultaneously
1985 2013-03-22 19:36:24 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: depends on if you mean an implementation of bitcoin or platonic bitcoin.
1986 2013-03-22 19:36:35 <sipa> CodeShark: if by 'sufficient resources' you mean the energy to brute-force ECDSA, yes
1987 2013-03-22 19:36:59 <CodeShark> or even a trojan horse which makes a subtle change to your bitcoind :P
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1989 2013-03-22 19:37:17 <gmaxwell> Platonic bitcoin is not substantially inflatable, given known physical laws, and basic assumptions that people would notice someone telling them to reset all their clocks constantly, for example.
1990 2013-03-22 19:37:31 <sipa> of course, real-world scenarios always carry non-technical risks
1991 2013-03-22 19:37:32 <gmaxwell> Actual implementations are another matter, sure.
1992 2013-03-22 19:38:17 <EvilPete> At some point the easier attack is to send guys at 4am to your house with zip-ties, a baseball bat and duct-tape
1993 2013-03-22 19:38:28 <sipa> saying that bitcoin depends on assumptions about what attackers can do, is true, but it is less true than for many (most? all?) alternatives
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1996 2013-03-22 19:39:02 <sipa> and i believe bitcoin is an experiment is moving the boundaries of what trust we need to create a succesful global currency system
1997 2013-03-22 19:40:01 <gmaxwell> Not just thatâ it _needs_ to be more true of Bitcoin because the decenteralization means we can't (easily) appeal to an authority to right a wrong... the wrong must be prevented in the first place. This makes soft security (which I'm a big fan of) less useful.
1998 2013-03-22 19:40:02 <CodeShark> also, as far as mathematical provability, alas, current public key cryptography still sits at conjecture
1999 2013-03-22 19:41:02 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: you can make the conjecture as narrow as you likeâ we only _need_ that there exists one-way function upto computational intractability.
2000 2013-03-22 19:41:06 * sipa invokes Goldbach
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2002 2013-03-22 19:41:20 <gmaxwell> s/function/functions/
2003 2013-03-22 19:42:03 <CodeShark> for starters, classical computer science still can't prove stuff like P != NP. secondly, the current computing models might leave out significant information processing capabilities inherent in the universe
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2005 2013-03-22 19:43:36 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: you may enjoy http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/users/russell/average.ps I thought it was fun.
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2008 2013-03-22 19:46:53 <CodeShark> cool, thanks gmaxwell
2009 2013-03-22 19:47:11 <sipa> CodeShark: i believe relaying on some unproven mathematical conjecture is an order of magnitude difference with assuming nodes will not filter too much :)
2010 2013-03-22 19:47:15 <sipa> *relying
2011 2013-03-22 19:49:44 <CodeShark> I agree that the mathematics of bitcoin is not the weakest link, sipa :)
2012 2013-03-22 19:50:01 <sipa> thx!
2013 2013-03-22 19:50:47 <CodeShark> just pointing out that certainty is more a matter of degree than it is a boolean property
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2018 2013-03-22 19:52:33 <gmaxwell> This isn't lost on any of us, even if we sometimes use simplified language. :P
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2063 2013-03-22 20:44:08 <jgarzik> New idea for a bitcoin bot: DetroitBot. Pay it bitcoins, and buy and demolish one house in Detroit, MI. (reference: http://bit.ly/9NMYHN )
2064 2013-03-22 20:44:22 <jgarzik> *it will buy and demolish...
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2067 2013-03-22 20:46:21 <petertodd> jgarzik: I forsee your bot generating much PR attention.
2068 2013-03-22 20:46:22 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: science fiction!
2069 2013-03-22 20:46:37 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: hm?
2070 2013-03-22 20:46:46 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/users/russell/average.ps
2071 2013-03-22 20:46:54 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: in a sense!
2072 2013-03-22 20:46:57 <Scrat> jgarzik: bad name. the "detroit scammer" is notorious on -otc
2073 2013-03-22 20:47:25 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I am enjoying reading about the implications of Algorithmica and I'm only 4/14 through the paper..
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2075 2013-03-22 20:47:36 <CodeShark> anything with "detroit" in the name is bad :p
2076 2013-03-22 20:47:43 <gmaxwell> "Mayor Bing" conjured a vision of some crazy dark future where, in order to keep the lights on in city hall the mayor accepts a deal with a MegaCo search engine to change his name in exchange for sponsorship.
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2081 2013-03-22 20:50:16 <jgarzik> Scrat: DemoBot? HouseCruncher? :)
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2083 2013-03-22 20:51:51 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: I like that idea.
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2085 2013-03-22 20:54:11 <CodeShark> I think a lot of people would gladly pay to see all of detroit demolished :p
2086 2013-03-22 20:54:54 <gmaxwell> Danger: likely to be misunderstood as right white people having fun rather than civic mindedness.
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2089 2013-03-22 20:57:15 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Find some local community members and engage them in an educational program for the inner city youth combining robotics, computer science, finance, construction and even maybe performance art. Problem solved.
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2092 2013-03-22 20:58:02 <CodeShark> lol
2093 2013-03-22 20:58:17 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: There is the issue of land disposal... That asset, or sale thereof, could be put to good use.
2094 2013-03-22 20:58:38 valparaiso is now known as valparaiso_afk
2095 2013-03-22 20:58:41 <gmaxwell> petertodd: so you're saying that instead we pay them to set the houses on fire?
2096 2013-03-22 20:59:01 <gmaxwell> (with flame throwing robots)
2097 2013-03-22 20:59:16 <jgarzik> All this MI real estate is for sale for under $100... basically attorney fees and demolition fees far exceed purchase price.
2098 2013-03-22 21:00:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ...depends on if we get Survival Research Laboratories as our creative partner
2099 2013-03-22 21:01:29 <gmaxwell> "Bitcoin: Backed by ownership of land in MI"
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2103 2013-03-22 21:04:57 <petertodd> gmaxwell: You mean "Bitcoin: Backed by physics, well, something physical"
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2120 2013-03-22 21:26:01 * jgarzik mirthfully reads http://www.stayinglegalmi.org/private_foundation.html
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2125 2013-03-22 21:27:54 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: why Michigan?
2126 2013-03-22 21:28:13 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: scroll up
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2128 2013-03-22 21:28:32 * jgarzik wonders if a lawyer would act as director, on orders from a bot
2129 2013-03-22 21:28:38 <BlueMatt> ahh
2130 2013-03-22 21:29:02 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, that would be absolutely hilarious
2131 2013-03-22 21:29:16 <jgarzik> maybe have a better chance in Nevada, http://www.laughlinusa.com/nevada-benefits.asp
2132 2013-03-22 21:29:42 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I've actually wanted to test this out.
2133 2013-03-22 21:30:07 <gmaxwell> to see how well people comply with bot orders, or how much indirection through other people you need to get to achieve compliance.
2134 2013-03-22 21:30:23 <gmaxwell> whoa, OT. :P
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2136 2013-03-22 21:31:10 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i suspect your biggest problem would be getting accurate pricing for homes
2137 2013-03-22 21:31:10 <Ry4an> gmaxwell: read Daemon?
2138 2013-03-22 21:31:16 <jgarzik> need more bitcoin-accepting lawyers :)
2139 2013-03-22 21:31:30 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: Accurate pricing for home demolition, you mean?
2140 2013-03-22 21:31:34 <gmaxwell> Ry4an: yes, though I had ideas along those lines before reading it.
2141 2013-03-22 21:31:42 <gmaxwell> Ry4an: you've seen STORJ, no?
2142 2013-03-22 21:31:45 <jgarzik> Ry4an: :)
2143 2013-03-22 21:32:08 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, no i mean the the homes themselves, the problem is those are probably all bank owned foreclosures, so the information available is terribly inaccurate
2144 2013-03-22 21:32:17 <gmaxwell> (Jgarzik recommended daemon to me after seeing storj)
2145 2013-03-22 21:32:49 <Ry4an> I'm googling nothing relevant for "storj"
2146 2013-03-22 21:32:56 <phantomcircuit> like you could easily have someone pay to demo a house to find out when the attorney goes to buy it that it's either non existent, has already been sold, or is much more expensive than listed
2147 2013-03-22 21:33:05 * gmaxwell summons jgarzik
2148 2013-03-22 21:33:08 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: It is easy to find enough that match a filter "< $100" && !foreclosure
2149 2013-03-22 21:33:12 <jgarzik> Ry4an: http://garzikrants.blogspot.com/2013/01/storj-and-bitcoin-autonomous-agents.html
2150 2013-03-22 21:33:41 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: there are a ton of zero-value, fire/vandal-damaged homes that cost more than they are worth, to do anything with
2151 2013-03-22 21:33:42 <Ry4an> ah so!
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2153 2013-03-22 21:34:31 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: Sellers want to get those insurance liabilities off the books at any price (== cost of the transaction)
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2155 2013-03-22 21:35:27 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, if you were buying them rapidly enough you could probably get them for a nominal $1
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2157 2013-03-22 21:36:19 <phantomcircuit> lol looking for a laptop on amazon, select under $400, all the results are > $400
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2165 2013-03-22 21:40:52 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: $1 for land + house, $1000 in attorneys and fees, < $5000 for demolition or > $30000 for repairs
2166 2013-03-22 21:41:13 <jgarzik> You're going to burn at least a couple thousand
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2169 2013-03-22 21:42:41 * jgarzik wonders which real estate site offers automated queries... could come up with a way to maximize the geographic density of the $1 houses purchased
2170 2013-03-22 21:42:57 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, $8000 for camera crew to file demolition for live streaming
2171 2013-03-22 21:43:13 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, http://www.mls.com/
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2175 2013-03-22 21:44:58 <kjj> MLS is notoriously poor quality, particularly on foreclosure/demolition properties
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2177 2013-03-22 21:46:07 <phantomcircuit> kjj, this is true but in general the quality of listings is poor
2178 2013-03-22 21:46:29 <phantomcircuit> there are higher quality listings but they are usually limited to small geographic areas and are much more expensive
2179 2013-03-22 21:46:35 <MC-Droid_> where is this detroit?
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2181 2013-03-22 21:47:30 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit
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2183 2013-03-22 21:48:24 <MC-Droid_> i heard you can buy a house for about $300 there but you have to evict the crackheads yourself becuase there are no police left
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2187 2013-03-22 21:50:16 <kjj> this map says a lot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Economic_map_of_metropolitan_Detroit.jpg
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2191 2013-03-22 21:52:31 <gmaxwell> kjj: ignoring the scaling that could be just about any city in the US.
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2195 2013-03-22 21:53:51 <gmaxwell> kjj: http://www.radicalcartography.net/?cityincome
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2197 2013-03-22 21:54:20 <gmaxwell> (I was specifically looking for chicago because I thought it would look _just_ like the one you linkedâ and indeed, it does)
2198 2013-03-22 21:54:27 <petertodd> re: UTXO/SPV fraud proofs: Just realized they allow for a very serious failure mechanism, delayed fraud discovery/consensus failure. Basically if for any reason provable fraud remains undiscovered, perhaps due to a bug in the fraud detection code and/or outright malice anyone can publish a valid fraud proof well after the fact, instantly triggering the invalidation of an arbitrarily large number of blocks. Of course in reality there wou
2199 2013-03-22 21:54:51 <kjj> meh. I rarely enable javascript on a page with no non-JS content
2200 2013-03-22 21:55:02 <kjj> but I believe you, as far as major cities goes
2201 2013-03-22 21:55:44 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I had thought of that but didn't think it concerning. It's an incentive to look. :) You could make it stronger by ignoring ones that are too old, I guess. But that feel inelegant to me.
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2206 2013-03-22 21:56:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yeah, I realized the problem ages ago w/ fidelity bonded banking, but for some reason didn't make the connection until just now. Ignoring them gives malicious actors a lot of incentive to try to exploit/create such failures, and the special cases will proliferate over time. Ugly.
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2208 2013-03-22 21:57:49 <gmaxwell> petertodd: it just means that you choose your infinitesmal risk.
2209 2013-03-22 21:58:04 <gmaxwell> petertodd: historical chain dishonesty, or the risk of delayed reconvergence.
2210 2013-03-22 21:58:53 <gmaxwell> petertodd: one idea I had is that someone must show a competing chain for you to look at proofs, though that fails against really persistant miner cartels.
2211 2013-03-22 21:59:31 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yeah, and cartels is the whole point of fraud proofs anyway.
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2214 2013-03-22 22:00:44 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well, unanimous cartel vs simple majority cartel. (or even non-majority cartels, if you assume miners will be spv-proof too)
2215 2013-03-22 22:03:10 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Right, but what a simple majority cartel would do is claim the non-majority are close to 51% attackers.
2216 2013-03-22 22:04:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: You only need a few hours of the minority being unable to get their proof out by *human* means to really mess things up.
2217 2013-03-22 22:04:47 <gmaxwell> petertodd: thats why there is an assumption that everyone is checking. But you get good checking scaling by having everyone do random checks.
2218 2013-03-22 22:05:21 <warren> random checks with bloom FP's?
2219 2013-03-22 22:05:45 <gmaxwell> e.g. N users, you have everyone check 1/f(N). which is dirt cheap to do. Then anyone can announce a fraud proof.
2220 2013-03-22 22:05:53 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Hopefully. I suspect people with a UTXO set copy will at some point have strong incentives to ensure that other's can't get full copies of the set.
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2222 2013-03-22 22:06:10 <gmaxwell> petertodd: You making it a protocol requirement, of course.
2223 2013-03-22 22:06:27 <gmaxwell> If you run a peer that won't answer UTXO queries for all the txn you return you just get blacklisted.
2224 2013-03-22 22:06:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: To make it a protocol requirement you will need a UTXO PoW of some fashion.
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2226 2013-03-22 22:07:05 <gmaxwell> No you don'tâ they don't even have to have the whole utxo set themselves.
2227 2013-03-22 22:07:17 <gmaxwell> they just need the parts implicated by the block they gave you.
2228 2013-03-22 22:07:38 <gmaxwell> but yea, you're right thats only compatible with one level of fractional checking.
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2230 2013-03-22 22:08:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Hmm... nah, atually PoW doesn't help, because the issue is you, the SPV node, must be able to get UTXO information, and at some point the UTXO holder has every incentive not to give you it because that lets you compete with them.
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2232 2013-03-22 22:08:42 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Them having it for UTXO PoW doesn't help anything, and if anything makes mining without a UTXO set even harder. (perhaps if TX's were accompanied by UTXO existence proofs from the last block)
2233 2013-03-22 22:09:18 <gmaxwell> petertodd: what I was basically suggesting there was the same as TX-with-existance-proof.
2234 2013-03-22 22:10:15 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Right, make the P2P protocol require an UTXO existance proof valid for the current best block accompany every TX.
2235 2013-03-22 22:10:24 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Implies getting UTXO information is easy.
2236 2013-03-22 22:11:36 hsy has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2237 2013-03-22 22:12:09 normanrichards has joined
2238 2013-03-22 22:14:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Hmm... a big issue with anything that assumes the P2P network, is why should the network really exist in the future when running validating nodes is expensive? It'd be much easier to just submit tx's to miners directly.
2239 2013-03-22 22:14:56 FredEE has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2240 2013-03-22 22:15:55 Exocyst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2248 2013-03-22 22:22:30 <MC-Droid_> are you serious
2249 2013-03-22 22:23:14 <petertodd> MC-Droid_: ?
2250 2013-03-22 22:23:58 normanri_ has joined
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2253 2013-03-22 22:25:25 <MC-Droid_> advocating getting rid of the mesh?
2254 2013-03-22 22:25:30 moesvy has joined
2255 2013-03-22 22:26:44 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2256 2013-03-22 22:26:49 <petertodd> I'm not advocating getting rid of the mesh, I'm just saying that's what will naturally happen if running a validating node becomes expensive.
2257 2013-03-22 22:26:53 <Insu> it's natural evolution
2258 2013-03-22 22:27:04 <petertodd> It's a very negative thing to have happen.
2259 2013-03-22 22:27:21 <MC-Droid_> oh yeah
2260 2013-03-22 22:27:25 <MC-Droid_> hence block caps
2261 2013-03-22 22:27:32 normanrichards has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2262 2013-03-22 22:27:33 normanri_ is now known as normanrichards
2263 2013-03-22 22:27:41 <petertodd> Yup, as you might have noticed me advocating. :P
2264 2013-03-22 22:27:47 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, as of 0.8 the cost of running a full node has substantially dropped
2265 2013-03-22 22:28:05 <phantomcircuit> $5 vps can run a full node now
2266 2013-03-22 22:28:13 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: The network bandwidth cost hasn't, and that's the important thing.
2267 2013-03-22 22:28:16 <MC-Droid_> sorry i need to read more scrollback before opining
2268 2013-03-22 22:28:41 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, 1mbps of premium bandwidth is like $1/month
2269 2013-03-22 22:28:47 <phantomcircuit> (in a dc of course)
2270 2013-03-22 22:29:06 <petertodd> MC-Droid_: Likely Bitcoin would have to move to hashcash for DoS protection on the P2P network at best.
2271 2013-03-22 22:29:21 <EvilPete> If you want to find out about network bandwidth.. run a node with a reachable public IP.. you'll have 50+ incoming connections before you know what happened
2272 2013-03-22 22:29:29 <petertodd> MC-Droid_: Doesn't really make sense still re: bandwidth cost, and the red balloons paper would apply again.
2273 2013-03-22 22:30:09 <petertodd> EvilPete: Yup, I run a fast one on Amazon EC2: only incoming Tor is allowed and I still have 60+ peers.
2274 2013-03-22 22:30:46 normanrichards has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2275 2013-03-22 22:30:55 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: 1mbps of anonymous bandwidth is much harder to get
2276 2013-03-22 22:31:03 <warren> petertodd: how much is Amazon EC costing you?
2277 2013-03-22 22:31:08 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2278 2013-03-22 22:31:36 <MC-Droid_> with block caps the cost of a validating node approaches zero long term
2279 2013-03-22 22:32:02 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2280 2013-03-22 22:32:17 <MC-Droid_> perhaps even without them at some point in the future, assuming economic activity levels off at some point and computers dont
2281 2013-03-22 22:32:30 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2282 2013-03-22 22:32:34 i2pRelay has joined
2283 2013-03-22 22:32:37 <petertodd> warren: About $10/month for the bandwidth
2284 2013-03-22 22:32:50 <MC-Droid_> i expect to be running a validator on my phone one day
2285 2013-03-22 22:32:57 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, not really
2286 2013-03-22 22:33:33 <petertodd> MC-Droid_: Assuming they stay fixed, I expect in reality they'd be increased gradually bit by bit as fees get to the point where even doing a transaction for your weekly payroll is prohibitive.
2287 2013-03-22 22:33:40 <MC-Droid_> in fact i bet this tablet would do it eventually, if bitcoinj releases full node code
2288 2013-03-22 22:33:41 <petertodd> MC-Droid_: But at that point we've got a *lot* of users.
2289 2013-03-22 22:34:22 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: name how
2290 2013-03-22 22:34:53 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, regular bandwidth + tor
2291 2013-03-22 22:34:58 <MC-Droid_> in that case i think off chain solutions are a price to pay to keep the network core decentralised as fuck
2292 2013-03-22 22:35:02 <phantomcircuit> tor only adds about 10x overhead
2293 2013-03-22 22:35:47 <phantomcircuit> public node receiving constant traffic is about 100 KiB/s
2294 2013-03-22 22:36:01 <phantomcircuit> which is why i quoted the 1 mbps price
2295 2013-03-22 22:36:04 <MC-Droid_> i used to be really absolutist about PURE BITCOIN
2296 2013-03-22 22:36:09 <MC-Droid_> but its not realistic
2297 2013-03-22 22:36:14 <phantomcircuit> so you can expect constant 10 mbps bitcoin + tor to be about $10/month
2298 2013-03-22 22:36:23 andytoshi has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0)
2299 2013-03-22 22:36:38 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Tor isn't an overhead, it's speed is based on how much bandwidth people have donated to tor.
2300 2013-03-22 22:37:12 <petertodd> MC-Droid_: Yeah, though FinCEN's ruling both complicates off-chain tx, and at the same time I think it also shows why keeping mining decentralized is important - they did mention mining explicitly.
2301 2013-03-22 22:37:13 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, you're wrapping the connection in 6 ssl layers for a hidden service :)
2302 2013-03-22 22:37:16 benkay has joined
2303 2013-03-22 22:37:51 <warren> don't hidden services bounce through like 7 relays?
2304 2013-03-22 22:38:00 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Yes, but you can amortize that overhead fairly effectively.
2305 2013-03-22 22:38:12 <petertodd> warren: Nah, 6, three in and three out.
2306 2013-03-22 22:38:19 flug has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2307 2013-03-22 22:38:29 <MC-Droid_> they mentioned miners as money servicers?
2308 2013-03-22 22:38:48 joehoyle has joined
2309 2013-03-22 22:38:50 <phantomcircuit> MC-Droid_, yes which is actually a surprisingly accurate incite
2310 2013-03-22 22:39:10 <MC-Droid_> yes but fuck
2311 2013-03-22 22:39:12 <phantomcircuit> makes me think they have really studied the issue
2312 2013-03-22 22:39:30 <petertodd> MC-Droid_: It's weird, they mentioned them as people who can't transfer bitcoins for fiat, which is true for everyone, but I think points to their logic that miners should be regulated even if it's doesn't strictly make sense.
2313 2013-03-22 22:39:43 <MC-Droid_> bitcoin didnt last long as an out of the rotten system we have did it
2314 2013-03-22 22:39:49 <MC-Droid_> will just get assimilated
2315 2013-03-22 22:40:04 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2316 2013-03-22 22:40:32 <petertodd> MC-Droid_: Anyway, pool ops are arguably people who handle Bitcoins on behalf of others, and that's definitely regulated.
2317 2013-03-22 22:40:36 i2pRelay has joined
2318 2013-03-22 22:40:52 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, actually i think it does make sense, if it didn't apply to miners then exchanges could become miners and sell bitcoins without being registered
2319 2013-03-22 22:41:00 <warren> It's hard to say how p2pool would be regulated...
2320 2013-03-22 22:41:20 <phantomcircuit> which makes me think they actually considered this
2321 2013-03-22 22:41:31 <warren> what does "in business" mean?
2322 2013-03-22 22:41:35 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Right, but my point is, FinCEN said *anyone* who exchanges BTC for fiat in any amount is regulated; mentioning miners that way is redundent.
2323 2013-03-22 22:41:52 <MC-Droid_> im not really row row fight the power but i just want to see one thing in this world not at the whimsy of a doughy faced man in a suit
2324 2013-03-22 22:42:21 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2325 2013-03-22 22:42:24 BenderCoin has joined
2326 2013-03-22 22:42:30 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, i believe that you're not an exchange if you're buying/selling from an exchange
2327 2013-03-22 22:42:47 <phantomcircuit> i know a number of people have read that you would be but im pretty sure that's wrong
2328 2013-03-22 22:42:55 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I think thats exactly why its doing that, also to close off people who are laundering money without any real care about bitcoin from saying "oh, these mysterious dollars from nowhere? I mined them"
2329 2013-03-22 22:42:58 <MC-Droid_> also it raises barriers to entry from kid in his bedroom to regulated financial services firm
2330 2013-03-22 22:43:13 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i actually hadn't even considered that
2331 2013-03-22 22:43:18 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Yes, but the logic there is the exchange is acting as the regulated entity in the transaction.
2332 2013-03-22 22:43:28 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid_: unfortunate in some ways but also expected.
2333 2013-03-22 22:43:58 <petertodd> Remember that miners can do nifty tricks like funneling money through transaction fees, something FinCEN's analysists quite likely figured out.
2334 2013-03-22 22:44:02 <EvilPete> "Guidance" isn't regulation, its just clarifying their position on how they think the existing regulations should be applied. I think that they basically want to be able to trace anything that enters/leaves the blockchain, and that means exchangers, anonymizers etc.
2335 2013-03-22 22:44:44 <MC-Droid_> seems like mining is lost to any remotely regular citizen then
2336 2013-03-22 22:44:47 <petertodd> EvilPete: Right, but not just enters or exits the Bitcoin world, but also many things within Bitcoin as well, as you say anonymizers soley on the blockchain and so on.
2337 2013-03-22 22:44:56 <petertodd> MC-Droid_: Exactly
2338 2013-03-22 22:45:04 <MC-Droid_> all the more.reason validation should stay fluid as possible
2339 2013-03-22 22:45:09 mappum has joined
2340 2013-03-22 22:45:15 <petertodd> MC-Droid_: It's why I've been saying over and over again that mining must be possible behind anonymizing technology.
2341 2013-03-22 22:45:16 stretchwarren has joined
2342 2013-03-22 22:45:33 <MC-Droid_> tor?
2343 2013-03-22 22:46:15 <petertodd> tor at the minimum, although it should be possible to use stenographic transports like embedding in HD video streams and so on. Basically keep the bandwidth low and lots of options open up.
2344 2013-03-22 22:46:29 <gmaxwell> PORN MINER.
2345 2013-03-22 22:46:45 <MC-Droid_> what about
2346 2013-03-22 22:46:52 <MC-Droid_> conspicuous power.use
2347 2013-03-22 22:46:57 <petertodd> gmaxwell: If you start that, please use professional models.
2348 2013-03-22 22:47:16 <EvilPete> The last thing they want is more noise and to have to deal with thousands and thousands of miners. Their guidance is that the regulations that have existed for a while appear to apply to miners because they're "creating" virtual currency. They really couldn't give a damn about miners though, what they care about is the Linden labs folks, and getting a handle on where the silk road money is flowing.
2349 2013-03-22 22:47:24 <MC-Droid_> wrt forthcoming smartmeter dystopia and stuff
2350 2013-03-22 22:47:41 <petertodd> MC-Droid_: w/ ASICs mining is capital limited for now, and some businesses have found ways to deal with power use. :P
2351 2013-03-22 22:48:04 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2352 2013-03-22 22:48:21 <MC-Droid_> mining op underneath an industrial laundry eh
2353 2013-03-22 22:48:25 <MC-Droid_> like breaking bad
2354 2013-03-22 22:48:31 AndChat has joined
2355 2013-03-22 22:48:36 i2pRelay has joined
2356 2013-03-22 22:48:49 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid_: yea, meters here do hourly level data collection quite alarming. And now I discover that the meters at my old location did at least daily level data, though this was only disclosed to me as part of a dispute with the power company. (They sent me a $49 bill for where I wasn't in the house and had the whole place turned off at the master breaker)
2357 2013-03-22 22:48:55 <petertodd> I think much of this isn't to prevent every attack, but make sure trying to regulate Bitcoin looks really tough, so they won't bother. If we make it too easy it makes Bitcoin a target.
2358 2013-03-22 22:48:59 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: someone creates a #bitcoin-bots channel, for bots.
2359 2013-03-22 22:49:00 <EvilPete> The exchanges in second life.. yeah, that's totally got to be on their radar because it's not transparent like bitcoin is.
2360 2013-03-22 22:49:08 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: bots themselves, not discussion, I think.
2361 2013-03-22 22:49:22 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: there is one, I thought.
2362 2013-03-22 22:49:33 <jgarzik> sigh
2363 2013-03-22 22:49:36 * jgarzik kicks his keyboard
2364 2013-03-22 22:49:39 <jgarzik> *created
2365 2013-03-22 22:49:40 <petertodd> jgarzik: You need to implement a !captcha test in #bitcoin-bots
2366 2013-03-22 22:49:44 btcur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2367 2013-03-22 22:49:55 <gmaxwell> petertodd: forget captcha, random algebra.
2368 2013-03-22 22:50:05 <jgarzik> Just trying to say #bitcoin-bots already exists
2369 2013-03-22 22:50:06 <MC-Droid_> gmaxwell: i read future meters will be able to meter and charge for individual appliances in your house
2370 2013-03-22 22:50:11 * jgarzik needs a beer
2371 2013-03-22 22:50:21 <gmaxwell> petertodd: then you get some bots complying with it by eval(text from irc)
2372 2013-03-22 22:50:40 <petertodd> MC-Droid_: Remember that people need electrical heat all over the world... "No, I'm just too lazy to install a natural gas furnace!"
2373 2013-03-22 22:51:01 <gmaxwell> (don't laugh, the default captcha in mediawiki 'simplecaptcha' gives you text that makes you do arithmetic ... some spammers used eval)
2374 2013-03-22 22:51:19 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ...well that's a security hole if I ever heard of one...
2375 2013-03-22 22:51:47 <weex> here we can login and view hourly usage on some pretty nice graphs
2376 2013-03-22 22:51:54 <MC-Droid_> maybe all the big miners will just have to leave the us
2377 2013-03-22 22:51:59 <MC-Droid_> and its allies
2378 2013-03-22 22:52:09 <petertodd> MC-Droid_: ...and nations the US can invade
2379 2013-03-22 22:52:12 <weex> can easily see when the dryer is turned on
2380 2013-03-22 22:52:13 <MC-Droid_> and aspiring teachers pet states
2381 2013-03-22 22:52:19 <MC-Droid_> russia then?
2382 2013-03-22 22:52:24 <pjorrit_> they can't just use tor?
2383 2013-03-22 22:52:33 <gmaxwell> okay better, I was going to sayâ US policy is usually better than its allies, at least we have a long history of the courts bounding stupidity.
2384 2013-03-22 22:52:45 <gmaxwell> We then export our stupid laws to places without strong courts...
2385 2013-03-22 22:53:10 <gmaxwell> pjorrit_: not if you're talking about 10 gigabyte blocks.
2386 2013-03-22 22:53:11 thoughtcourier has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2387 2013-03-22 22:53:18 <MC-Droid_> thats what makes you imperial bastards :p
2388 2013-03-22 22:53:31 one_zero has joined
2389 2013-03-22 22:53:35 <petertodd> MC-Droid_: No, that's just because the US is too stupid to think in base 10
2390 2013-03-22 22:53:35 <MC-Droid_> im a brit so this is higly ironic
2391 2013-03-22 22:54:00 <jgarzik> "Bot and bot-related discussion; trading bots, IRC bots, utility bots, and Bitcoin-related bot development. Please follow FreeNode Bot policy for all in-channel bots. Malicious bot/botnet==your doom."
2392 2013-03-22 22:54:08 <wizkid057> base10 is hard
2393 2013-03-22 22:54:09 <wizkid057> :(
2394 2013-03-22 22:54:19 <petertodd> wizkid057: I hear base 16 is much better.
2395 2013-03-22 22:54:37 <wizkid057> :D
2396 2013-03-22 22:54:46 <petertodd> jgarzik: Ooh, I should write blockheader bot! blockchain over IRC!
2397 2013-03-22 22:54:49 <MC-Droid_> inb4 tonal
2398 2013-03-22 22:55:10 <gmaxwell> petertodd: back when bitcoin used irc it was hard to convince people that it didn't relay blocks that way.
2399 2013-03-22 22:55:18 normanrichards has joined
2400 2013-03-22 22:55:21 <jgarzik> petertodd: I do want to find creative ways to distribute new blocks, and maybe transactions too. Perhaps UDP. Or satellite. Or morse code ham radio. Or...
2401 2013-03-22 22:55:47 <wizkid057> lol, blocks over ham radio
2402 2013-03-22 22:55:49 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: have a ham license?
2403 2013-03-22 22:55:55 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: KB4UZB
2404 2013-03-22 22:56:06 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2405 2013-03-22 22:56:12 <gmaxwell> NT4TN. We should relay some blocks some time. Have a HF radio?
2406 2013-03-22 22:56:32 <gmaxwell> hah your license is expired.
2407 2013-03-22 22:56:38 i2pRelay has joined
2408 2013-03-22 22:56:46 * warren wonders if HF radio will reach here.
2409 2013-03-22 22:56:51 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: Yeah. Haven't bothered in a while. My dad's the one with all the gear, including HF.
2410 2013-03-22 22:57:20 <gmaxwell> warren: sure, reaches world wide, at least some of the time..
2411 2013-03-22 22:57:26 <jgarzik> Dad once built a ~30 ft antenna with rotational servo, cemented into the ground, next to our house in Greenville NC
2412 2013-03-22 22:57:28 AndChat has quit (417489!~AndChat41@174-157-86-26.pools.spcsdns.net|Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2413 2013-03-22 22:58:13 <gmaxwell> though my ability to put up an antenna here is kinda limited. Though I could probably go up to a park in the mountains.
2414 2013-03-22 22:58:26 * jgarzik wonders if a block header would fit into an SMS message, with base58/base64/hex
2415 2013-03-22 22:58:35 thoughtcourier has joined
2416 2013-03-22 22:58:40 <wizkid057> jgarzik: probably
2417 2013-03-22 22:58:55 <petertodd> it will, 80 bytes in hex is exactly 160 chars
2418 2013-03-22 22:59:01 <MC-Droid_> so consensus is hide mining in or move it to russia
2419 2013-03-22 22:59:03 joehoyle has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2420 2013-03-22 22:59:07 <jgarzik> hah, better challenge:
2421 2013-03-22 22:59:09 <jgarzik> tweet
2422 2013-03-22 22:59:13 <jgarzik> 140 chars
2423 2013-03-22 22:59:20 <gmaxwell> 8/6*80 ~= 107
2424 2013-03-22 22:59:25 <jgarzik> Then you know SMS works too
2425 2013-03-22 22:59:30 <D34TH> jgarzik: tweetcoin?
2426 2013-03-22 22:59:32 <D34TH> lol
2427 2013-03-22 22:59:42 <D34TH> or tweeting nodes
2428 2013-03-22 22:59:46 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: well twitter can pack a bit less than 3kb.
2429 2013-03-22 22:59:54 <D34TH> use the feed as the "chain"
2430 2013-03-22 22:59:59 <gmaxwell> Because it lets you use unicode and doesn't even constrain you to valid codepoints.
2431 2013-03-22 23:00:34 <gmaxwell> @tx Ï
οιÏ
ξÃÏ
âÏοjââ¡Î¾ÃjÏÃÏ
Ãââ§ÃÏ
Ï
ιÏÏ
ιÏ
ο°jκλjκξιjαÃηιjιjι κ¶ξj¶ââ¡Ï
δÏÏ
ηÏâ§â¤âsiεÏÏââοÏÏâ¨Â¢Ã
2432 2013-03-22 23:00:36 Sealy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2433 2013-03-22 23:00:41 * petertodd is now blockheaders at twitter
2434 2013-03-22 23:01:02 <gmaxwell> petertodd: too bad they won't fit in hex.
2435 2013-03-22 23:01:25 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yeah, base 58 isn't so bad though...
2436 2013-03-22 23:01:41 <gmaxwell> why not base 64?
2437 2013-03-22 23:02:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Sure, but base 58 is annoyingly bitcoin specific. :P
2438 2013-03-22 23:02:52 <Scrat> that reminds me
2439 2013-03-22 23:02:56 <Scrat> steganography via non printable unicode chars
2440 2013-03-22 23:03:02 bolgon has quit (Quit: Fuck you, shitcoin!)
2441 2013-03-22 23:03:03 fishfish has quit (Quit: Bye!)
2442 2013-03-22 23:03:07 <Scrat> survives copy/paste
2443 2013-03-22 23:03:16 joehoyle- has joined
2444 2013-03-22 23:03:43 <MC-Droid_> if bitcoin went up on news of regulation
2445 2013-03-22 23:03:47 <petertodd> Scrat: basically steganography via punctuation to the max
2446 2013-03-22 23:04:02 <MC-Droid_> would it go down on news of restriction?
2447 2013-03-22 23:04:03 <gmaxwell> Scrat: you may like: http://www.darkside.com.au/snow/
2448 2013-03-22 23:04:07 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2449 2013-03-22 23:04:15 <MC-Droid_> i bet it would also go up
2450 2013-03-22 23:04:29 <petertodd> gmaxwell: There's a perl module for that...
2451 2013-03-22 23:04:34 <gmaxwell> (which is the basis of the opportunistic establishment that I came up that OTR uses.
2452 2013-03-22 23:04:38 <gmaxwell> )
2453 2013-03-22 23:04:39 i2pRelay has joined
2454 2013-03-22 23:04:43 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ?
2455 2013-03-22 23:05:00 HM has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2456 2013-03-22 23:05:07 fishfish has joined
2457 2013-03-22 23:05:09 <Scrat> gmaxwell: nice
2458 2013-03-22 23:05:12 <gmaxwell> petertodd: OTR automatically turns on when you talk to someone else that has OTR, triggered by whitespace added in non OTR messages.
2459 2013-03-22 23:05:15 HM has joined
2460 2013-03-22 23:05:21 <gmaxwell> (originally OTR had to be manually enabled)
2461 2013-03-22 23:05:33 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Ah, cool!
2462 2013-03-22 23:06:22 <gmaxwell> on the downside, this exposed issues with OTR and half duplex concurrent logins. OTR connection wars.. oh well. :( At least the latest protocol finally fixes that.
2463 2013-03-22 23:06:25 <Scrat> there are 4 unicode characters that do not have width
2464 2013-03-22 23:06:40 <gmaxwell> Scrat: and how many of them change the direction of your text? :P
2465 2013-03-22 23:07:00 Anduckkk has joined
2466 2013-03-22 23:07:00 Anduckkk has quit (Changing host)
2467 2013-03-22 23:07:00 Anduckkk has joined
2468 2013-03-22 23:07:02 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Just means you need an encoding without a DC bias...
2469 2013-03-22 23:07:04 <gmaxwell> (the direction modifiers really screw up a lot of software)
2470 2013-03-22 23:07:07 <Scrat> they actually don't do anything
2471 2013-03-22 23:07:40 <gmaxwell> petertodd: "manchester coded stego"
2472 2013-03-22 23:07:54 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2473 2013-03-22 23:07:59 <Scrat> I coded a proof of concept a few years ago, looking into my backups
2474 2013-03-22 23:08:35 Sealy has joined
2475 2013-03-22 23:09:28 <Scrat> U+200D is one of them
2476 2013-03-22 23:09:51 * jgarzik wonders if there is any value to UDP broadcasting block headers
2477 2013-03-22 23:10:12 <jgarzik> '
2478 2013-03-22 23:10:26 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it would help nodes who are being sybiled discover that a longer chain exists and they need to find less dishonest peers.
2479 2013-03-22 23:10:37 <Scrat> gmaxwell: well, it joins arabic characters together but does nothing otherwise
2480 2013-03-22 23:10:37 <Nothing4You> i like using the direction modifiers inside nicknames on websites that support them
2481 2013-03-22 23:10:45 <petertodd> Scrat: reminds me, I wrote a simple app last year that just hides data in free space, using the idea that if you encrypt your harddrive twice, the free space will be full of random data...
2482 2013-03-22 23:10:58 <Nothing4You> some time ago i used them in my steam nick
2483 2013-03-22 23:11:14 <Nothing4You> everywhere i signed in through steam they got the username that way
2484 2013-03-22 23:11:18 <jgarzik> gnhtjnbtvrrccvivuktkldnueeeercijudegtbirbhkh
2485 2013-03-22 23:11:19 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you've seen rubberhose and the more modern version of it, right?
2486 2013-03-22 23:11:37 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Did alan cox teach you welsh?
2487 2013-03-22 23:11:49 <jgarzik> whoops. baby like typing detected
2488 2013-03-22 23:11:55 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yup, basically my intent was to write a version of rubberhose so simple that you could write an app to get your data back in an hours work.
2489 2013-03-22 23:12:09 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2490 2013-03-22 23:12:10 <gmaxwell> (ah, should have known: too many vowels to be welsh)
2491 2013-03-22 23:12:40 i2pRelay has joined
2492 2013-03-22 23:13:08 <sipa> gmaxwell: lol
2493 2013-03-22 23:13:13 <warren> Too many vowels == probably Hawaiian.
2494 2013-03-22 23:14:15 <petertodd> Too many nulls == probably a bot
2495 2013-03-22 23:14:23 <gmaxwell> lol
2496 2013-03-22 23:15:03 <Scrat> petertodd: I just wish that more manufacturers would take FDE seriously. although in this channel's context hardware encryption should be handled with a tinfoil hat
2497 2013-03-22 23:15:40 <gmaxwell> Scrat: manufacturers? ... why bother. thats the OS's job. (don't use crypto you can't audit!)
2498 2013-03-22 23:16:36 <EvilPete> It's unfortunate that we use the same term for people running hashing programs who have nothing to do with transactions, btc etc, vs mining pools who are.
2499 2013-03-22 23:16:56 <petertodd> Scrat: It's physical security, evil maid and so on, that the mfg's need to take seriously.
2500 2013-03-22 23:17:20 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
2501 2013-03-22 23:18:47 <Scrat> gmaxwell: last I checked dmcrypt would mess with my SSD's ability to mark deleted data for cleanup
2502 2013-03-22 23:19:19 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: indeed. I tell people that pool miner clients are not minersâ they are people selling computing time to miners. The distinction is usually lost on people.
2503 2013-03-22 23:19:31 <Scrat> ecryptfs'ing /home partition looked like a good solution
2504 2013-03-22 23:19:33 <gmaxwell> Scrat: trim gets passed through now, if you want it to be.
2505 2013-03-22 23:19:45 <EvilPete> gmaxwell: "cgminer" is a hasher etc
2506 2013-03-22 23:20:12 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2507 2013-03-22 23:20:43 i2pRelay has joined
2508 2013-03-22 23:21:29 ovidiusoft has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2509 2013-03-22 23:22:03 <sipa> i'm positively surprised by the amount of people joining in on the content of the new site
2510 2013-03-22 23:23:06 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
2511 2013-03-22 23:23:11 moesvy has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2512 2013-03-22 23:23:42 keystroke has joined
2513 2013-03-22 23:25:31 <helo> is there anything bad about running a full node on tor and ipv4 together?
2514 2013-03-22 23:25:57 <helo> assuming my goal is just to help tor connectivity a bit
2515 2013-03-22 23:26:30 MJR__ has joined
2516 2013-03-22 23:27:29 EPiSKiNG- is now known as EPiSKiNG-`
2517 2013-03-22 23:27:45 Ashaman has joined
2518 2013-03-22 23:27:55 <gmaxwell> helo: nope.
2519 2013-03-22 23:28:06 <gmaxwell> though well, blockchain.info may attribute tor users transactions to you more frequently.
2520 2013-03-22 23:28:15 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2521 2013-03-22 23:28:21 <gmaxwell> you can solve this by blocking blockchain.info.
2522 2013-03-22 23:28:25 EPiSKiNG-` is now known as EPiSKiNG-
2523 2013-03-22 23:28:42 <warren> they are easy to identify?
2524 2013-03-22 23:28:46 <jotik> hmm... blockchain.info appears not to be working.
2525 2013-03-22 23:28:47 i2pRelay has joined
2526 2013-03-22 23:28:48 <Nothing4You> Status: Not Connected (0 Nodes Connected)
2527 2013-03-22 23:29:41 <jotik> It was offline (their service provider was serving old static pages about 15 min ago)
2528 2013-03-22 23:30:15 <Nothing4You> Status: Ok (99 Nodes Connected)
2529 2013-03-22 23:30:54 <jotik> ah, now its back
2530 2013-03-22 23:31:07 fishfish has quit (Quit: Bye!)
2531 2013-03-22 23:31:18 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
2532 2013-03-22 23:31:45 <jotik> The slush pool just generated a block in about 2 seconds so I thought maybe it crashed because of that :P
2533 2013-03-22 23:32:01 fishfish has joined
2534 2013-03-22 23:33:24 <hmmmstrange> dang, i missed out on any shares in the 2 second block
2535 2013-03-22 23:34:42 MJR__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2536 2013-03-22 23:36:18 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2537 2013-03-22 23:36:28 <jotik> My miner said I got one share accepted, but the pool stats show none :(
2538 2013-03-22 23:36:50 i2pRelay has joined
2539 2013-03-22 23:38:59 MJR__ has joined
2540 2013-03-22 23:39:23 <MC-Droid_> is p2pool fixed yet
2541 2013-03-22 23:39:31 <petertodd> I wonder what twitter will think if I post all 227471 block headers...
2542 2013-03-22 23:40:01 <petertodd> https://twitter.com/blockheaders
2543 2013-03-22 23:40:11 <sipa> 426 transactions with noncanonical but valid sigs among the last 76663, or 5.55%
2544 2013-03-22 23:40:26 <sipa> eh, 0.555%
2545 2013-03-22 23:40:49 * sipa wonders whether this is enough to make them nonstandard :S
2546 2013-03-22 23:41:07 <petertodd> sipa: Good way to get that down to 0%...
2547 2013-03-22 23:41:27 <EvilPete> woohoo, I managed to get 2 shares in the 2 second slush block.
2548 2013-03-22 23:41:47 <sipa> petertodd: haha, sure
2549 2013-03-22 23:42:37 <petertodd> sipa: Will non-standard make my \x00 prefixed ones blocked as well?
2550 2013-03-22 23:42:46 <sipa> petertodd: no
2551 2013-03-22 23:42:54 <petertodd> sipa: Works for me :P
2552 2013-03-22 23:43:04 agricocb has joined
2553 2013-03-22 23:43:51 <sipa> petertodd: what exactly are you doing?
2554 2013-03-22 23:44:07 <sipa> just nonspendable outputs?
2555 2013-03-22 23:44:08 <petertodd> sipa: \x00 + <32 byte digest>
2556 2013-03-22 23:44:19 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2557 2013-03-22 23:44:22 <petertodd> sipa: No, that in a 1 of 2 bare multisig tx.
2558 2013-03-22 23:44:38 <sipa> ok
2559 2013-03-22 23:44:41 <petertodd> sipa: The other key is so I can spend it
2560 2013-03-22 23:44:46 <helo> does tor bitcoin require at least someone running -listen=1 on their tor node?
2561 2013-03-22 23:44:51 i2pRelay has joined
2562 2013-03-22 23:44:55 <sipa> helo: see doc/tor.txt
2563 2013-03-22 23:44:56 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2564 2013-03-22 23:44:58 <helo> ty
2565 2013-03-22 23:45:12 <petertodd> sipa: The \x00 is convenient because then I can be sure the digest key can't cause it to be spent...
2566 2013-03-22 23:45:31 copumpkin has joined
2567 2013-03-22 23:45:34 <sipa> petertodd: no, what this does is make validation fail, when a piece of data is being interpreted as a public key or signature, and it is non-standard encoded
2568 2013-03-22 23:45:35 FredEE has joined
2569 2013-03-22 23:45:50 <sipa> petertodd: so 1-of-2 remains valid if you're not depending on the other output being valid
2570 2013-03-22 23:45:57 <sipa> *signature
2571 2013-03-22 23:45:57 <petertodd> sipa: Ah, cool, that's fine.
2572 2013-03-22 23:46:12 MJR__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2573 2013-03-22 23:47:24 <gmaxwell> petertodd: goal being to remove the dependency on openssl brokenness and to reduce signature malleability.
2574 2013-03-22 23:47:56 MJR__ has joined
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2582 2013-03-22 23:54:20 <petertodd> On a reorg, what does blocknotify do?
2583 2013-03-22 23:54:35 <petertodd> (the command line option to bitcoind)
2584 2013-03-22 23:55:37 sebuba has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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